From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 1 05:50:00 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 10:50:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles References: <1249234998.3736990.1480589400131.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1249234998.3736990.1480589400131@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I have a problem with my conical ?hatch seat. ?I have discovered that I have a .005 in gap between the hatch and seat in two spots. ?It seems the seat is oval with a gap at each end. ?I have no way of measuring this other than placing video cassette tape ribbon strips between the hatch and seat. ?What I do is, I cut the ribbon into 3 inch strips, then tape them in place so they are hanging over the seat. ?I put one every two inches, then close the hatch. ?The ribbons are then trapped tight in the gap. ?if the ribbons can pull out then there is a gap. ?Sure enough, I can remove one at the front, so I put two ribbons on top of each other in that spot and it still pulls out. ?I add another making 3 ribbons thick and it is tight. ?Then I tried doubling one ribbon in the front and one opposite in the back and they were tight. ?The conclusion is that the seat is oval by .005 in at each end. ?I put the hatch back in the lathe and re-faced it, to be sure it is not the hatch. ?It is the seat, it seems my flange facing machine is not perfect-not a big surprise. ?This is still very good for a portable home made tool.I don't know if this a problem or not, how accurate does this have to be? ?Will the assembly simply bend? ?My feeling is the hatch and seat will deform to match under pressure. ?To put it into perspective, I just measured a hair and that is .01 in. the same as the total gap combined.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 1 06:56:29 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 12:56:29 +0100 (MET) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles In-Reply-To: <1249234998.3736990.1480589400131@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1249234998.3736990.1480589400131.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1249234998.3736990.1480589400131@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1480593389272.642976.509e895f8ea61d317a2083ebd6389edd536ff1a2@spica.telekom.de> Hank can you turn the hatch in the seat ? 3 Peace of sandpater all 120 degree and turning and water dripping from a hose or later Piston Paste between hatch and seat ? Making a leaver on the hatch and running the hole day around the submarine? 30 Turns clockwise and 30 turns anticclock. Than again. Do you have friends liking hard walking? Its a good evening with two friends and some sixpacks of beer It was exact that way Emile and I making the final seat of a dome seat. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles Datum: 2016-12-01T12:00:56+0100 Von: "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hi All, I have a problem with my conical hatch seat. I have discovered that I have a .005 in gap between the hatch and seat in two spots. It seems the seat is oval with a gap at each end. I have no way of measuring this other than placing video cassette tape ribbon strips between the hatch and seat. What I do is, I cut the ribbon into 3 inch strips, then tape them in place so they are hanging over the seat. I put one every two inches, then close the hatch. The ribbons are then trapped tight in the gap. if the ribbons can pull out then there is a gap. Sure enough, I can remove one at the front, so I put two ribbons on top of each other in that spot and it still pulls out. I add another making 3 ribbons thick and it is tight. Then I tried doubling one ribbon in the front and one opposite in the back and they were tight. The conclusion is that the seat is oval by .005 in at each end. I put the hatch back in the lathe and re-faced it, to be sure it is not the hatch. It is the seat, it seems my flange facing machine is not perfect-not a big surprise. This is still very good for a portable home made tool. I don't know if this a problem or not, how accurate does this have to be? Will the assembly simply bend? My feeling is the hatch and seat will deform to match under pressure. To put it into perspective, I just measured a hair and that is .01 in. the same as the total gap combined. Hank ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 1 10:22:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 15:22:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles In-Reply-To: <1480593389272.642976.509e895f8ea61d317a2083ebd6389edd536ff1a2@spica.telekom.de> References: <1249234998.3736990.1480589400131.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1249234998.3736990.1480589400131@mail.yahoo.com> <1480593389272.642976.509e895f8ea61d317a2083ebd6389edd536ff1a2@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1083830441.3876289.1480605735916@mail.yahoo.com> Carsten,I can turn it but it is very heavy and wants to wobble in the seat or climb out because it is conical. ?It is a solution though! ? Is it?necessary though?Hank On Thursday, December 1, 2016 4:56 AM, "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ?Hank can you turn the hatch in the seat ? ?3 Peace of sandpater all 120 degree and turning and water dripping from a hose or later Piston Paste between hatch and seat ? Making a leaver on the hatch and running the hole day around the submarine?30 Turns clockwise and 30 turns anticclock. Than again. Do you have friends liking hard walking? Its a good evening with two friends and some sixpacks of beer?It was exact that way Emile and I making the final seat of a dome seat. ?vbr Carsten ????-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troublesDatum: 2016-12-01T12:00:56+0100Von: "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi All,I have a problem with my conical ?hatch seat. ?I have discovered that I have a .005 in gap between the hatch and seat in two spots. ?It seems the seat is oval with a gap at each end. ?I have no way of measuring this other than placing video cassette tape ribbon strips between the hatch and seat. ?What I do is, I cut the ribbon into 3 inch strips, then tape them in place so they are hanging over the seat. ?I put one every two inches, then close the hatch. ?The ribbons are then trapped tight in the gap. ?if the ribbons can pull out then there is a gap. ?Sure enough, I can remove one at the front, so I put two ribbons on top of each other in that spot and it still pulls out. ?I add another making 3 ribbons thick and it is tight. ?Then I tried doubling one ribbon in the front and one opposite in the back and they were tight. ?The conclusion is that the seat is oval by .005 in at each end. ?I put the hatch back in the lathe and re-faced it, to be sure it is not the hatch. ?It is the seat, it seems my flange facing machine is not perfect-not a big surprise. ?This is still very good for a portable home made tool.I don't know if this a problem or not, how accurate does this have to be? ?Will the assembly simply bend? ?My feeling is the hatch and seat will deform to match under pressure. ?To put it into perspective, I just measured a hair and that is .01 in. the same as the total gap combined.Hank? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 1 11:38:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 08:38:23 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles Message-ID: <20161201083823.9C3750AD@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 1 12:38:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 17:38:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles In-Reply-To: <20161201083823.9C3750AD@m0087791.ppops.net> References: <20161201083823.9C3750AD@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: <52136640.3983801.1480613903138@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I test for fit with the o-ring out. ?Don't worry about yours, flat hatches will bend like butter. ?My K350 hatch had a .04 in dip in it and it flattened out right away. ?You just need a bit more weight pulling on your hatch. ?Gamma used to drip on every dive from the hatch seal. ?I made an adjustment to tighten the one dog and that cured it. ?How hard is your o-ring?Hank On Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:38 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?? Is that with out the o ring installed????? Now you've got me worried,? I had to give my hatch a little help by sitting on it when I pulled a vacuum on it.? I'm not sure why exactly I'll have to check again.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 15:22:15 +0000 (UTC) Carsten,I can turn it but it is very heavy and wants to wobble in the seat or climb out because it is conical. ?It is a solution though! ? Is it?necessary though?Hank On Thursday, December 1, 2016 4:56 AM, "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ?Hank can you turn the hatch in the seat ? ?3 Peace of sandpater all 120 degree and turning and water dripping from a hose or later Piston Paste between hatch and seat ? Making a leaver on the hatch and running the hole day around the submarine?30 Turns clockwise and 30 turns anticclock. Than again. Do you have friends liking hard walking? Its a good evening with two friends and some sixpacks of beer?It was exact that way Emile and I making the final seat of a dome seat. ?vbr Carsten ????-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troublesDatum: 2016-12-01T12:00:56+0100Von: "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi All,I have a problem with my conical ?hatch seat. ?I have discovered that I have a .005 in gap between the hatch and seat in two spots. ?It seems the seat is oval with a gap at each end. ?I have no way of measuring this other than placing video cassette tape ribbon strips between the hatch and seat. ?What I do is, I cut the ribbon into 3 inch strips, then tape them in place so they are hanging over the seat. ?I put one every two inches, then close the hatch. ?The ribbons are then trapped tight in the gap. ?if the ribbons can pull out then there is a gap. ?Sure enough, I can remove one at the front, so I put two ribbons on top of each other in that spot and it still pulls out. ?I add another making 3 ribbons thick and it is tight. ?Then I tried doubling one ribbon in the front and one opposite in the back and they were tight. ?The conclusion is that the seat is oval by .005 in at each end. ?I put the hatch back in the lathe and re-faced it, to be sure it is not the hatch. ?It is the seat, it seems my flange facing machine is not perfect-not a big surprise. ?This is still very good for a portable home made tool.I don't know if this a problem or not, how accurate does this have to be? ?Will the assembly simply bend? ?My feeling is the hatch and seat will deform to match under pressure. ?To put it into perspective, I just measured a hair and that is .01 in. the same as the total gap combined.Hank? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 1 14:53:32 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 12:53:32 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles In-Reply-To: CVQccE7QUiFaHCVQdc5EdA References: <20161201083823.9C3750AD@m0087791.ppops.net> CVQccE7QUiFaHCVQdc5EdA Message-ID: Hank - are you expecting the conical interface to perform as a metal to metal seal at depth? Or merely to carry the hull shell stresses? Do you know how much pressure is required to compress your o-ring sufficiently to reduce the extrusion gap to zero? Is this even possible? Or does the cone engage and prevent it? Sean On December 1, 2016 10:38:23 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Brian,I test for fit with the o-ring out. ?Don't worry about yours, >flat hatches will bend like butter. ?My K350 hatch had a .04 in dip in >it and it flattened out right away. ?You just need a bit more weight >pulling on your hatch. ?Gamma used to drip on every dive from the hatch >seal. ?I made an adjustment to tighten the one dog and that cured it. >?How hard is your o-ring?Hank > >On Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:38 AM, Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Hank,?? Is that with out the o ring installed????? Now you've got me >worried,? I had to give my hatch a little help by sitting on it when I >pulled a vacuum on it.? I'm not sure why exactly I'll have to check >again.?Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles >Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 15:22:15 +0000 (UTC) > >Carsten,I can turn it but it is very heavy and wants to wobble in the >seat or climb out because it is conical. ?It is a solution though! ? Is >it?necessary though?Hank > >On Thursday, December 1, 2016 4:56 AM, "MerlinSub at t-online.de via >Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > > ?Hank can you turn the hatch in the seat ? >?3 Peace of sandpater all 120 degree and turning and water dripping >from a hose or later Piston Paste between hatch and seat ? Making a >leaver on the hatch and running the hole day around the submarine?30 >Turns clockwise and 30 turns anticclock. Than again. Do you have >friends liking hard walking? Its a good evening with two friends and >some sixpacks of beer?It was exact that way Emile and I making the >final seat of a dome seat. ?vbr Carsten >????-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch >seat troublesDatum: 2016-12-01T12:00:56+0100Von: "hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal >Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi >All,I have a problem with my conical ?hatch seat. ?I have discovered >that I have a .005 in gap between the hatch and seat in two spots. ?It >seems the seat is oval with a gap at each end. ?I have no way of >measuring this other than placing video cassette tape ribbon strips >between the hatch and seat. ?What I do is, I cut the ribbon into 3 inch >strips, then tape them in place so they are hanging over the seat. ?I >put one every two inches, then close the hatch. ?The ribbons are then >trapped tight in the gap. ?if the ribbons can pull out then there is a >gap. ?Sure enough, I can remove one at the front, so I put two ribbons >on top of each other in that spot and it still pulls out. ?I add >another making 3 ribbons thick and it is tight. ?Then I tried doubling >one ribbon in the front and one opposite in the back and they were >tight. ?The conclusion is that the seat is oval by .005 in at each end. >?I put the hatch back in the lathe and re-faced it, to be sure it is >not the hatch. ?It is the seat, it seems my flange facing machine is >not perfect-not a big surprise. ?This is still very good for a portable >home made tool.I don't know if this a problem or not, how accurate does >this have to be? ?Will the assembly simply bend? ?My feeling is the >hatch and seat will deform to match under pressure. ?To put it into >perspective, I just measured a hair and that is .01 in. the same as the >total gap combined.Hank? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles >mailing >listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 1 16:24:00 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 21:24:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles In-Reply-To: References: <20161201083823.9C3750AD@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1062387702.4155463.1480627440377@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,No the seal comes from the o-ring, the metal to metal is to carry the hull stress. ?It is my feeling it will be okay because I have a significant reinforcement with the land ring. ?Just a gut feeling lol. ?I am not sure what you mean by compressing thee o-ring to zero. ?The hatch will close to within .02 in with vacuum from the compressor, the ? o-ring is completely encapsulated at that point.?Hank On Thursday, December 1, 2016 12:53 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - are you expecting the conical interface to perform as a metal to metal seal at depth? Or merely to carry the hull shell stresses? Do you know how much pressure is required to compress your o-ring sufficiently to reduce the extrusion gap to zero? Is this even possible? Or does the cone engage and prevent it?Sean On December 1, 2016 10:38:23 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,I test for fit with the o-ring out. ?Don't worry about yours, flat hatches will bend like butter. ?My K350 hatch had a .04 in dip in it and it flattened out right away. ?You just need a bit more weight pulling on your hatch. ?Gamma used to drip on every dive from the hatch seal. ?I made an adjustment to tighten the one dog and that cured it. ?How hard is your o-ring?Hank On Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:38 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?? Is that with out the o ring installed????? Now you've got me worried,? I had to give my hatch a little help by sitting on it when I pulled a vacuum on it.? I'm not sure why exactly I'll have to check again.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussi! on Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 15:22:15 +0000 (UTC) Carsten,I can turn it but it is very heavy and wants to wobble in the seat or climb out because it is conical. ?It is a solution though! ? Is it?necessary though?Hank On Thursday, December 1, 2016 4:56 AM, "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ?Hank can you turn the hatch in the seat ? ?3 Peace of sandpater all 120 degree and turning and water dripping from a hose or later Piston Paste between hatch and seat ? Making a leaver on the hatch and running the hole day around the submarine?30 Turns clockwise and 30 turns anticclock. Than again. Do you have friends liking hard walking? Its a good evening with two friends and some sixpacks of beer?It was exact that way Emile and I making the final seat of a dome seat. ?vbr Carsten ????-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troublesDatum: 2016-12-01T12:00:56+0100Von: "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi All,I have a problem with my conical ?hatch seat. ?I have discovered that I have a .005 in gap between the hatch and seat in two spots. ?It seems the seat is oval with a gap at each end. ?I have no way of measuring this other than placing video cassette tape ribbon strips between the hatch and seat. ?What I do is, I cut the ribbon into 3 inch strips, then tape them in place so they are hanging over the seat. ?I put one every two inches, then close the hatch. ?The ribbons are then trapped tight in the gap. ?if the ribbons can pull out then there is a gap. ?Sure enough, I can remove one at the front, so I put two ribbons on top of each other in that spot and it still pulls out. ?I add another making 3 ribbons thick and it is tight. ?Then I tried doubling one ribbon in the front and one opposite in the back and they were tight. ?The conclusion is that the seat is oval by .005 in at each end. ?I put the ! hatchback in the lathe and re-faced it, to be sure it is not the hatch. ?It is the seat, it seems my flange facing machine is not perfect-not a big surprise. ?This is still very good for a portable home made tool.I don't know if this a problem or not, how accurate does this have to be? ?Will the assembly simply bend? ?My feeling is the hatch and seat will deform to match under pressure. ?To put it into perspective, I just measured a hair and that is .01 in. the same as the total gap combined.Hank? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 1 18:17:25 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 18:17:25 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project In-Reply-To: <425083030.565097.1480122310929@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <158bcada0cb-5585-1a3bc@webprd-m97.mail.aol.com> I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of how big the book is! Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest? Any idea on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic Sheets on an ambient sub? I'm thinking about making the frame out of aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic. For more complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass. Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, just a brief run down on the thrusters. most people modify trolling motors for underwater use. The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page. I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient, 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was dubious. Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils. A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical thrusters. Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient.. http://www.fugusub.com/ The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns you. 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater. If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well. The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep water out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure outside. This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air compensated thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken the spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion of air on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good) I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd stage regulator. With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors. Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down it. (cheap) I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the seals & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the air compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure keeps the oil pressurized. A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over propulsion. What type of motor should I look at for my sub? Should I go with AC or DC motor? The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct? I was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to protect them. It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look though for tips/ideas! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf. If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside circular cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke off the circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I retrospectively decided to make an ambient out of my model. The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in fiberglass sandwiches to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. (Not the Doug that replied to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard filler with the resin to go between the gaps of the stringers. You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round section. I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, then fiberglass. If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the temperature. If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you need, buy the parts, make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as the temptation is to build the hull so you can see some progress. Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would recommend that as a first step. Pleased to help with your future build. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for all the information! I'm going to be spending the next couple of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor. Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was strong enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one shot. Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the top & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol. On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Alan, Thanks for the name. I forgot it was called a moon pool. You did bring up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex. I got to think about it for a while if it's worth having. I have experience with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem. What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did you put down? And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs? Do you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, they call that a moon pool. Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_jr_2010.htm He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & the bouncing motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air in his hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him to descend. As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing negative buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was only 20ft down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water. You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic pipe. I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your life at stake. Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill holes through & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as strong if you want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester resin. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving bell). Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the hull? [This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub] Would that be cost effective? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to be water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are vulnerable to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't ask me what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all capacitors are not the same. There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be regarded as a semi-dry. I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it would compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that. Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in mildly rough conditions. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for the information Alan! I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design. Also since I will be working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor) Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a structural difference? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, On my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't free flow) attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports down to stop water coming in. With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to equalize the hull, & any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air is automatically provided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use. I can elaborate if you go that path. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub! Any idea on how they maintain the air volume? When scuba diving, you just manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do something different. How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the top of your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a dry ambient, but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continually compresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy. Most are built out of fiberglass. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on visiting Scott in the next few weeks. I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route. Have a mix between a wet and a dry ambient sub! Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub? What building material should I use? Should I go with steel or fiberglass? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters is definitely recommended. Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere. If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress. ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ludwig, I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & there are aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch. You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom of your hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure & everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lot of internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub upside down and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your hatch will be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want them in the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft. You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life support plus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at 100ft. So a lot of air needed. You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you are diving to. I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/ I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer then two years to built a 1 atm sub. What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine. I would learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and start building a 1 atm sub. I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person. I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry ambient submarine won't be much of a problem. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, welcome. If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finish a 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need a similar amount of time. I built a dry ambient, which was a great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere. Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that. Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but most psubbers end up buying a copy of it. Cheers Alan New Zealand From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the pond in around two years! I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut size or a tiny bit smaller. I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull. That would only limit me down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale? Probably worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build from scratch. On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the East Coast. 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 1 20:34:39 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 01:34:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles In-Reply-To: <1062387702.4155463.1480627440377@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20161201083823.9C3750AD@m0087791.ppops.net> <1062387702.4155463.1480627440377@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <984278438.4289779.1480642479876@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,I figured out what your asking about the o-ring. ?Yes it is possible to reduce the extrusion gap to zero, with the exception of the small area that has a .01 gap between the hatch and seat. ?I have to assume there is an extrusion gap in that short area of .01 or less. ?I would estimate that 25 lbs of water pressure would compress the o-ring so the hatch ?is tight with metal to metal.Hank On Thursday, December 1, 2016 2:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,No the seal comes from the o-ring, the metal to metal is to carry the hull stress. ?It is my feeling it will be okay because I have a significant reinforcement with the land ring. ?Just a gut feeling lol. ?I am not sure what you mean by compressing thee o-ring to zero. ?The hatch will close to within .02 in with vacuum from the compressor, the ? o-ring is completely encapsulated at that point.?Hank On Thursday, December 1, 2016 12:53 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - are you expecting the conical interface to perform as a metal to metal seal at depth? Or merely to carry the hull shell stresses? Do you know how much pressure is required to compress your o-ring sufficiently to reduce the extrusion gap to zero? Is this even possible? Or does the cone engage and prevent it?Sean On December 1, 2016 10:38:23 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,I test for fit with the o-ring out. ?Don't worry about yours, flat hatches will bend like butter. ?My K350 hatch had a .04 in dip in it and it flattened out right away. ?You just need a bit more weight pulling on your hatch. ?Gamma used to drip on every dive from the hatch seal. ?I made an adjustment to tighten the one dog and that cured it. ?How hard is your o-ring?Hank On Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:38 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?? Is that with out the o ring installed????? Now you've got me worried,? I had to give my hatch a little help by sitting on it when I pulled a vacuum on it.? I'm not sure why exactly I'll have to check again.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussi! on Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 15:22:15 +0000 (UTC) Carsten,I can turn it but it is very heavy and wants to wobble in the seat or climb out because it is conical. ?It is a solution though! ? Is it?necessary though?Hank On Thursday, December 1, 2016 4:56 AM, "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ?Hank can you turn the hatch in the seat ? ?3 Peace of sandpater all 120 degree and turning and water dripping from a hose or later Piston Paste between hatch and seat ? Making a leaver on the hatch and running the hole day around the submarine?30 Turns clockwise and 30 turns anticclock. Than again. Do you have friends liking hard walking? Its a good evening with two friends and some sixpacks of beer?It was exact that way Emile and I making the final seat of a dome seat. ?vbr Carsten ????-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troublesDatum: 2016-12-01T12:00:56+0100Von: "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi All,I have a problem with my conical ?hatch seat. ?I have discovered that I have a .005 in gap between the hatch and seat in two spots. ?It seems the seat is oval with a gap at each end. ?I have no way of measuring this other than placing video cassette tape ribbon strips between the hatch and seat. ?What I do is, I cut the ribbon into 3 inch strips, then tape them in place so they are hanging over the seat. ?I put one every two inches, then close the hatch. ?The ribbons are then trapped tight in the gap. ?if the ribbons can pull out then there is a gap. ?Sure enough, I can remove one at the front, so I put two ribbons on top of each other in that spot and it still pulls out. ?I add another making 3 ribbons thick and it is tight. ?Then I tried doubling one ribbon in the front and one opposite in the back and they were tight. ?The conclusion is that the seat is oval by .005 in at each end. ?I put the ! hatchback in the lathe and re-faced it, to be sure it is not the hatch. ?It is the seat, it seems my flange facing machine is not perfect-not a big surprise. ?This is still very good for a portable home made tool.I don't know if this a problem or not, how accurate does this have to be? ?Will the assembly simply bend? ?My feeling is the hatch and seat will deform to match under pressure. ?To put it into perspective, I just measured a hair and that is .01 in. the same as the total gap combined.Hank? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 2 07:32:17 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?UTF-8?Q?Lasse_Schmidt_Westr=C3=A9n?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:32:17 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project In-Reply-To: <158bcada0cb-5585-1a3bc@webprd-m97.mail.aol.com> References: <425083030.565097.1480122310929@mail.yahoo.com> <158bcada0cb-5585-1a3bc@webprd-m97.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: Ludwig, The book is really awesome. I would still urge you to consider a one atmosphere sub. it is so much easier in every aspect, and more fun to dive. Have a great weekend, Cheers, Lasse 2016-12-02 0:17 GMT+01:00 via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of > how big the book is! > > Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest? Any idea > on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? > > > Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic > Sheets on an ambient sub? I'm thinking about making the frame out of > aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets > on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic. For more > complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass. > Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before? > > > -Ludwig > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project > > Hi Ludwig, > just a brief run down on the thrusters. > most people modify trolling motors for underwater use. > The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. > Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page. > I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient, > 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was > dubious. > Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own > brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC > as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils. > A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical > thrusters. > Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient.. > http://www.fugusub.com/ > The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns > you. > 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater. > If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need > to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well. > The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep > water > out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so > the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure > outside. > This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air > compensated > thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken > the > spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion > of air > on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good) > I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd > stage regulator. > With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors. > Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down > it. (cheap) > I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the > seals > & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is > easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the > air > compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure > keeps the oil pressurized. > A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle. > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible > project > > I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over > propulsion. > > What type of motor should I look at for my sub? Should I go with AC or DC > motor? > > The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct? I > was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to > protect them. > > It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look > though for tips/ideas! > > -Ludwig > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project > > Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf. > If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside > circular > cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke > off the > circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I > retrospectively decided > to make an ambient out of my model. > The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in > fiberglass sandwiches > to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. > (Not the Doug that replied > to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard > filler with the resin to > go between the gaps of the stringers. > You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round > section. > I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, > then fiberglass. > If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the > temperature. > If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you > need, buy the parts, > make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as > the temptation > is to build the hull so you can see some progress. > Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would > recommend that as a > first step. > Pleased to help with your future build. > Regards Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible > project > > Thanks for all the information! I'm going to be spending the next couple > of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor. > > Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside > or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? > > Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles > by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail! > > -Ludwig > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project > > Hi Ludwig, > I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth > I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass > it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was > strong > enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one > shot. > Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the > top > & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol. > On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an > initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible > project > > Alan, > Thanks for the name. I forgot it was called a moon pool. You did bring > up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex. I got to > think about it for a while if it's worth having. > > I have experience with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem. > What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did > you put down? > > And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs? Do > you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper? > > -Ludwig > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project > > Ludwig, > they call that a moon pool. > Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_ > jr_2010.htm > He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & > the bouncing > motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air > in his > hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him > to descend. > As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing > negative > buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was > only 20ft > down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water. > You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic > pipe. > I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your > life at stake. > Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill > holes through > & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as > strong if you > want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester > resin. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible > project > > What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also > have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving > bell). > > Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the > hull? [This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub] > Would that be cost effective? > > > -Ludwig > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project > > Ludwig, > the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped > in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the > lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to > be > water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are > vulnerable > to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't > ask me > what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all > capacitors are not the same. > There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be > regarded as a semi-dry. > I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you > couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it > would > compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that. > Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need > a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or > Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in > mildly rough conditions. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible > project > > Thanks for the information Alan! > > I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design. Also since I will be > working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a > discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor) > > Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are > not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a > structural difference? > > -Ludwig > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project > > Ludwig, > On my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't > free flow) > attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports > down to stop water coming in. > With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to > equalize the hull, > & any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air > is automatically > provided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use. > I can elaborate if you go that path. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible > project > > The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub! > > Any idea on how they maintain the air volume? When scuba diving, you just > manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do > something different. > > How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume? > > -Ludwig > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project > > Ludwig, > I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a > semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the top > of your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a > dry ambient, > but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continually > compresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept > at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy. > Most are built out of fiberglass. > Alan > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible > project > > I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on > visiting Scott in the next few weeks. > > I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route. Have a mix between a > wet and a dry ambient sub! > > Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub? What building material should I > use? Should I go with steel or fiberglass? > > -Ludwig > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project > > Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, > informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / > fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters > is definitely recommended. > > Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on > your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go > for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because > there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet > sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an > entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere. > > If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like > a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... > whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on > to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress. ~ Douglas > S. > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Ludwig, > I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & there > are aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch. > You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom of > your hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure > & everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lot > of internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub > upside > down and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your > hatch > will be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. > There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want them > in the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft. > You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life > support > plus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at > 100ft. > So a lot of air needed. > You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you are > diving to. > I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as > a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/ > > I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient. > Regards Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs. org > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible > project > > I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer > then two years to built a 1 atm sub. > > What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine. I would > learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and > start building a 1 atm sub. I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in > New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person. > > I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry > ambient submarine won't be much of a problem. > > -Ludwig > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project > > Hi Ludwig, welcome. > If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finish > a 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need > a similar amount of time. I built a dry ambient, which was a > great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere. > Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that. > Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. > There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but most > psubbers end up buying a copy of it. > Cheers Alan > New Zealand > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs. org > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible > project > > That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the > pond in around two years! > > I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when > I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut > size or a tiny bit smaller. > > I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that > route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull. That would only limit me > down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving. > > -Ludwig > > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project > > I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale? > Probably worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build > from scratch. > > On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the > East Coast. > > > Get Outlook for Android > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- Lasse Schmidt Westr?n Upplevelsepresent.se 070-28 32 660 Upplevelser, events och kryssningar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 2 10:02:21 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 08:02:21 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles In-Reply-To: CcoCcho8MaC0PCcoDcIgtE References: <20161201083823.9C3750AD@m0087791.ppops.net> <1062387702.4155463.1480627440377@mail.yahoo.com> CcoCcho8MaC0PCcoDcIgtE Message-ID: <65775493-bda9-4343-b612-cf95d405e080@email.android.com> If the sealing is handled entirely by the elastomer, then I wouldn't be too concerned about a 0.005" gap on the conical face. 0.002" would be better, but realistically you are correct in that both parts will exhibit deflection under pressure. As long as the hatch is locked in place by the contact friction, it should be able to carry the shell stress. Extreme stress concentration at the highest points of contact will self relieve by local yielding, and the deformation will likely take care of equalizing the rest. The sandpaper / polish idea has merit to restore roundness. Sean On December 1, 2016 6:34:39 PM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,I figured out what your asking about the o-ring. ?Yes it is >possible to reduce the extrusion gap to zero, with the exception of the >small area that has a .01 gap between the hatch and seat. ?I have to >assume there is an extrusion gap in that short area of .01 or less. ?I >would estimate that 25 lbs of water pressure would compress the o-ring >so the hatch ?is tight with metal to metal.Hank > >On Thursday, December 1, 2016 2:27 PM, hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Hi Sean,No the seal comes from the o-ring, the metal to metal is to >carry the hull stress. ?It is my feeling it will be okay because I have >a significant reinforcement with the land ring. ?Just a gut feeling >lol. ?I am not sure what you mean by compressing thee o-ring to zero. >?The hatch will close to within .02 in with vacuum from the compressor, >the ? o-ring is completely encapsulated at that point.?Hank > >On Thursday, December 1, 2016 12:53 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Hank - are you expecting the conical interface to perform as a metal to >metal seal at depth? Or merely to carry the hull shell stresses? Do you >know how much pressure is required to compress your o-ring sufficiently >to reduce the extrusion gap to zero? Is this even possible? Or does the >cone engage and prevent it?Sean > > >On December 1, 2016 10:38:23 AM MST, hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Brian,I test for fit with the o-ring out. ?Don't worry about yours, >flat hatches will bend like butter. ?My K350 hatch had a .04 in dip in >it and it flattened out right away. ?You just need a bit more weight >pulling on your hatch. ?Gamma used to drip on every dive from the hatch >seal. ?I made an adjustment to tighten the one dog and that cured it. >?How hard is your o-ring?Hank > >On Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:38 AM, Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Hank,?? Is that with out the o ring installed????? Now you've got me >worried,? I had to give my hatch a little help by sitting on it when I >pulled a vacuum on it.? I'm not sure why exactly I'll have to check >again.?Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussi! >on >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch seat troubles >Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 15:22:15 +0000 (UTC) > >Carsten,I can turn it but it is very heavy and wants to wobble in the >seat or climb out because it is conical. ?It is a solution though! ? Is >it?necessary though?Hank > >On Thursday, December 1, 2016 4:56 AM, "MerlinSub at t-online.de via >Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > > ?Hank can you turn the hatch in the seat ? >?3 Peace of sandpater all 120 degree and turning and water dripping >from a hose or later Piston Paste between hatch and seat ? Making a >leaver on the hatch and running the hole day around the submarine?30 >Turns clockwise and 30 turns anticclock. Than again. Do you have >friends liking hard walking? Its a good evening with two friends and >some sixpacks of beer?It was exact that way Emile and I making the >final seat of a dome seat. ?vbr Carsten >????-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] conical hatch >seat troublesDatum: 2016-12-01T12:00:56+0100Von: "hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal >Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi >All,I have a problem with my conical ?hatch seat. ?I have discovered >that I have a .005 in gap between the hatch and seat in two spots. ?It >seems the seat is oval with a gap at each end. ?I have no way of >measuring this other than placing video cassette tape ribbon strips >between the hatch and seat. ?What I do is, I cut the ribbon into 3 inch >strips, then tape them in place so they are hanging over the seat. ?I >put one every two inches, then close the hatch. ?The ribbons are then >trapped tight in the gap. ?if the ribbons can pull out then there is a >gap. ?Sure enough, I can remove one at the front, so I put two ribbons >on top of each other in that spot and it still pulls out. ?I add >another making 3 ribbons thick and it is tight. ?Then I tried doubling >one ribbon in the front and one opposite in the back and they were >tight. ?The conclusion is that the seat is oval by .005 in at each end. >?I put the ! hatchback in the lathe and re-faced it, to be sure it is >not the hatch. ?It is the seat, it seems my flange facing machine is >not perfect-not a big surprise. ?This is still very good for a portable >home made tool.I don't know if this a problem or not, how accurate does >this have to be? ?Will the assembly simply bend? ?My feeling is the >hatch and seat will deform to match under pressure. ?To put it into >perspective, I just measured a hair and that is .01 in. the same as the >total gap combined.Hank? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles >mailing >listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 2 11:23:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 16:23:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary update References: <1077176198.4632554.1480695831171.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1077176198.4632554.1480695831171@mail.yahoo.com> My pressure test is off. ?The new price for the test has doubled from spring-partly my fault for misunderstanding. ? The cost makes no sense, i can haul my portable barge to a ?1,500 foot deep lake (Adams Lake) about 6 ?hr from my home for a pressure test. ?I only wanted to test to full depth rating for bragging rights. ?;-) I am working on the sub full time now and just mounted the two 116 cubic foot HP tanks to the new chassis yesterday. ??I am working on the fibreglass battery enclosures today and the hydraulic pump\reservoir ?enclosure.New cylinders will arrive in a day or two for the new manipulator that I will start to build next week.Fun times here!Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 2 11:51:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 08:51:33 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary update Message-ID: <20161202085133.9A7E35FA@m0087794.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 2 13:37:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 18:37:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary update In-Reply-To: <20161202085133.9A7E35FA@m0087794.ppops.net> References: <20161202085133.9A7E35FA@m0087794.ppops.net> Message-ID: <904954580.4730079.1480703879820@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,My HP tanks are CNG tanks type 1 witch means?that are all steel. ?I threw one in the lake and it floats- I was surprised because they are heavy as hell on the back.Hank On Friday, December 2, 2016 9:51 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sounds good Hank !?? I mis-read the 116 cu ft tanks , thought you might have huge ballast tanks !? But you're talking HP tanks, are those a scuba or a welding tank?? I have a 360 cu ft HP tank, want to get two more ! ??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary update Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 16:23:51 +0000 (UTC) My pressure test is off. ?The new price for the test has doubled from spring-partly my fault for misunderstanding. ? The cost makes no sense, i can haul my portable barge to a ?1,500 foot deep lake (Adams Lake) about 6 ?hr from my home for a pressure test. ?I only wanted to test to full depth rating for bragging rights. ?;-) I am working on the sub full time now and just mounted the two 116 cubic foot HP tanks to the new chassis yesterday. ??I am working on the fibreglass battery enclosures today and the hydraulic pump\reservoir ?enclosure.New cylinders will arrive in a day or two for the new manipulator that I will start to build next week.Fun times here!Hank_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 2 16:04:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 16:04:50 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <158c15a9a4e-5e34-223a@webprd-a58.mail.aol.com> Lasse, I would really love to build a one atmosphere sub but I'm moving out of the country in around two years and won't have the space to take it with me. The plan is for the ambient sub to give me the experience and knowledge of the sub systems and operation so when I do build the one atmosphere sub, I will have the knowledge and experience to help build it. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Lasse Schmidt Westr?n via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 6:38 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, The book is really awesome. I would still urge you to consider a one atmosphere sub. it is so much easier in every aspect, and more fun to dive. Have a great weekend, Cheers, Lasse 2016-12-02 0:17 GMT+01:00 via Personal_Submersibles : I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of how big the book is! Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest? Any idea on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic Sheets on an ambient sub? I'm thinking about making the frame out of aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic. For more complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass. Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, just a brief run down on the thrusters. most people modify trolling motors for underwater use. The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page. I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient, 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was dubious. Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils. A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical thrusters. Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient.. http://www.fugusub.com/ The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns you. 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater. If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well. The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep water out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure outside. This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air compensated thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken the spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion of air on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good) I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd stage regulator. With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors. Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down it. (cheap) I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the seals & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the air compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure keeps the oil pressurized. A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over propulsion. What type of motor should I look at for my sub? Should I go with AC or DC motor? The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct? I was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to protect them. It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look though for tips/ideas! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf. If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside circular cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke off the circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I retrospectively decided to make an ambient out of my model. The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in fiberglass sandwiches to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. (Not the Doug that replied to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard filler with the resin to go between the gaps of the stringers. You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round section. I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, then fiberglass. If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the temperature. If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you need, buy the parts, make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as the temptation is to build the hull so you can see some progress. Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would recommend that as a first step. Pleased to help with your future build. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for all the information! I'm going to be spending the next couple of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor. Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was strong enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one shot. Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the top & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol. On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Alan, Thanks for the name. I forgot it was called a moon pool. You did bring up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex. I got to think about it for a while if it's worth having. I have experience with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem. What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did you put down? And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs? Do you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, they call that a moon pool. Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_jr_2010.htm He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & the bouncing motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air in his hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him to descend. As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing negative buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was only 20ft down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water. You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic pipe. I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your life at stake. Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill holes through & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as strong if you want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester resin. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving bell). Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the hull? [This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub] Would that be cost effective? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to be water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are vulnerable to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't ask me what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all capacitors are not the same. There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be regarded as a semi-dry. I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it would compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that. Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in mildly rough conditions. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for the information Alan! I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design. Also since I will be working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor) Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a structural difference? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, On my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't free flow) attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports down to stop water coming in. With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to equalize the hull, & any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air is automatically provided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use. I can elaborate if you go that path. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub! Any idea on how they maintain the air volume? When scuba diving, you just manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do something different. How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the top of your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a dry ambient, but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continually compresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy. Most are built out of fiberglass. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on visiting Scott in the next few weeks. I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route. Have a mix between a wet and a dry ambient sub! Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub? What building material should I use? Should I go with steel or fiberglass? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters is definitely recommended. Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere. If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress. ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ludwig, I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & there are aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch. You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom of your hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure & everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lot of internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub upside down and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your hatch will be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want them in the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft. You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life support plus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at 100ft. So a lot of air needed. You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you are diving to. I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/ I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer then two years to built a 1 atm sub. What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine. I would learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and start building a 1 atm sub. I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person. I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry ambient submarine won't be much of a problem. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, welcome. If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finish a 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need a similar amount of time. I built a dry ambient, which was a great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere. Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that. Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but most psubbers end up buying a copy of it. Cheers Alan New Zealand From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the pond in around two years! I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut size or a tiny bit smaller. I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull. That would only limit me down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale? Probably worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build from scratch. On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the East Coast. Get Outlook for Android ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Lasse Schmidt Westr?n Upplevelsepresent.se 070-28 32 660 Upplevelser, events och kryssningar. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 2 17:18:43 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 22:18:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project In-Reply-To: <158bcada0cb-5585-1a3bc@webprd-m97.mail.aol.com> References: <425083030.565097.1480122310929@mail.yahoo.com> <158bcada0cb-5585-1a3bc@webprd-m97.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <715626783.5461388.1480717123934@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Luwig, Doug had large flat acrylic ports glued in to a frame with Sika Flex, on his ambient sub "Seeker". http://svseeker.com/submarine.htm He never got to dive it & sold it as is. He had the acrylic set up so that the pressure was pushing against the glue & not the frame. I didn't think this was wise, as it could be fatal if the glue failed. Acrylic scratches easily & is not as impact resistant as fiberglass. Your submarine has to weigh as much as the water displaced to be neutrally bouyant. Imagine your hull being a solid block of ice, & you will get a picture of the weight involved. The owner of the "dry dive" told me he hit a pinacle under the water & it was a massive impact even at slow speed. So build for strength. I would imagine acrylic of the thickness you need would be quite expensive. There are a couple of manufacturers in the States that sell acrylic domes at reasonable prices in varying sizes & up to I think 10mm thick. The domes for 1atm subs can cost thousands. If you want to post an image of your ideas we could comment on it. I am getting the impression you are wanting to build something like a fish tank! Even a pencil drawing will do. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of how big the book is! ? Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest? ?Any idea on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic Sheets on an ambient sub? ?I'm thinking about making the frame out of aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic. ?For more complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass.??Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before?? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig,just a brief run down on the thrusters. most people modify trolling motors for underwater use. The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page. I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient, 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was dubious. Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils. A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical thrusters. Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient.. http://www.fugusub.com/ The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns you. 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater. If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well. The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep water out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure outside. This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air compensated thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken the spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion of air on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good) I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd stage regulator. With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors. Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down it. (cheap) I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the seals & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the air compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure keeps the oil pressurized. A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over propulsion. What type of motor should I look at for my sub? ?Should I go with AC or DC motor? The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct? ?I was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to protect them. It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look though for tips/ideas! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf. If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside circular cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke off the circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I retrospectively decided to make an ambient out of my model. The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in fiberglass sandwiches to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. (Not the Doug that replied to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard filler with the resin to go between the gaps of the stringers. You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round section. I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, then fiberglass. If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the temperature. If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you need, buy the parts, make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as the temptation is to build the hull so you can see some progress. ?? Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would recommend that as a first step. Pleased to help with your future build. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for all the information! ?I'm going to be spending the next couple of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor. Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was strong enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one shot. Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the top & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol. On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Alan,Thanks for the name. ?I forgot it was called a moon pool. ?You did bring up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex. ?I got to think about it for a while if it's worth having. I have experience?with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem.What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did you put down? ?And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs? ?Do you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, they call that a moon pool. Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_jr_2010.htm He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & the bouncing motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air in his hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him to descend. As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing negative buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was only 20ft down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water. ?? You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic pipe. I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your life at stake. Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill holes through & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as strong if you want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester resin. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving bell). Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the hull? ?[This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub]Would that be cost effective? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to be water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are vulnerable to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't ask me what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all capacitors are not the same. There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be regarded as a semi-dry. I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it would compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that. Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in mildly rough conditions. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for the information Alan! I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design. ?Also since I will be working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor) Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a structural difference? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig,On?my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't free flow)attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports down to stop water coming in.With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to equalize the hull,& any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air is automaticallyprovided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use.I can elaborate if you go that path.Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub! ? Any idea on how they maintain the air volume? ?When scuba diving, you just manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do something different. How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume? -Ludwig? -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig,I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the topof your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a dry ambient,but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continuallycompresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy.Most are built out of fiberglass. Alan ? From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on visiting Scott in the next few weeks. I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route. ?Have a mix between a wet and a dry ambient sub! Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub? ?What building material should I use? ?Should I go with steel or fiberglass? -Ludwig?? ? -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters is definitely recommended. ? Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere.? If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress. ?~ Douglas S. ? On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ludwig,I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & thereare aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch.You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom ofyour hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure& everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lotof internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub upsidedown and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your hatchwill be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want themin the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft.You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life supportplus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at 100ft.So a lot of air needed.?You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you arediving to. I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient.Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer then two years to built a 1 atm sub. What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine.? I would learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and start building a 1 atm sub.? I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person. I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry ambient submarine won't be much of a problem. -Ludwig? -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, welcome.If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finisha 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need a similar amount of time.?I built a dry ambient, which was a great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere.??? Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that.Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but mostpsubbers end up buying a copy of it.Cheers AlanNew Zealand From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the pond in around two years! I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut size or a tiny bit smaller. I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull.? That would only limit me down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale?? Probably?worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build from scratch. On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the East Coast. 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 3 12:56:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 12:56:48 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project In-Reply-To: <715626783.5461388.1480717123934@mail.yahoo.com> References: <715626783.5461388.1480717123934@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <158c5d4d097-1ec2-3a11@webprd-a22.mail.aol.com> I will try to get a picture drawn and post it when I get the time this weekend. Has anyone tried building a sub with the controls like the Deepflight super falcon sub? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Luwig, Doug had large flat acrylic ports glued in to a frame with Sika Flex, on his ambient sub "Seeker". http://svseeker.com/submarine.htm He never got to dive it & sold it as is. He had the acrylic set up so that the pressure was pushing against the glue & not the frame. I didn't think this was wise, as it could be fatal if the glue failed. Acrylic scratches easily & is not as impact resistant as fiberglass. Your submarine has to weigh as much as the water displaced to be neutrally bouyant. Imagine your hull being a solid block of ice, & you will get a picture of the weight involved. The owner of the "dry dive" told me he hit a pinacle under the water & it was a massive impact even at slow speed. So build for strength. I would imagine acrylic of the thickness you need would be quite expensive. There are a couple of manufacturers in the States that sell acrylic domes at reasonable prices in varying sizes & up to I think 10mm thick. The domes for 1atm subs can cost thousands. If you want to post an image of your ideas we could comment on it. I am getting the impression you are wanting to build something like a fish tank! Even a pencil drawing will do. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of how big the book is! Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest? Any idea on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic Sheets on an ambient sub? I'm thinking about making the frame out of aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic. For more complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass. Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, just a brief run down on the thrusters. most people modify trolling motors for underwater use. The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page. I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient, 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was dubious. Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils. A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical thrusters. Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient.. http://www.fugusub.com/ The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns you. 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater. If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well. The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep water out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure outside. This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air compensated thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken the spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion of air on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good) I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd stage regulator. With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors. Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down it. (cheap) I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the seals & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the air compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure keeps the oil pressurized. A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over propulsion. What type of motor should I look at for my sub? Should I go with AC or DC motor? The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct? I was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to protect them. It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look though for tips/ideas! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf. If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside circular cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke off the circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I retrospectively decided to make an ambient out of my model. The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in fiberglass sandwiches to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. (Not the Doug that replied to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard filler with the resin to go between the gaps of the stringers. You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round section. I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, then fiberglass. If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the temperature. If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you need, buy the parts, make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as the temptation is to build the hull so you can see some progress. Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would recommend that as a first step. Pleased to help with your future build. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for all the information! I'm going to be spending the next couple of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor. Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was strong enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one shot. Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the top & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol. On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Alan, Thanks for the name. I forgot it was called a moon pool. You did bring up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex. I got to think about it for a while if it's worth having. I have experience with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem. What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did you put down? And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs? Do you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, they call that a moon pool. Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_jr_2010.htm He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & the bouncing motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air in his hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him to descend. As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing negative buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was only 20ft down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water. You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic pipe. I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your life at stake. Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill holes through & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as strong if you want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester resin. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving bell). Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the hull? [This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub] Would that be cost effective? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to be water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are vulnerable to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't ask me what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all capacitors are not the same. There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be regarded as a semi-dry. I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it would compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that. Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in mildly rough conditions. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for the information Alan! I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design. Also since I will be working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor) Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a structural difference? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, On my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't free flow) attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports down to stop water coming in. With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to equalize the hull, & any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air is automatically provided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use. I can elaborate if you go that path. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub! Any idea on how they maintain the air volume? When scuba diving, you just manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do something different. How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the top of your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a dry ambient, but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continually compresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy. Most are built out of fiberglass. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on visiting Scott in the next few weeks. I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route. Have a mix between a wet and a dry ambient sub! Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub? What building material should I use? Should I go with steel or fiberglass? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters is definitely recommended. Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere. If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress. ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ludwig, I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & there are aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch. You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom of your hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure & everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lot of internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub upside down and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your hatch will be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want them in the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft. You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life support plus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at 100ft. So a lot of air needed. You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you are diving to. I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/ I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer then two years to built a 1 atm sub. What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine. I would learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and start building a 1 atm sub. I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person. I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry ambient submarine won't be much of a problem. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, welcome. If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finish a 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need a similar amount of time. I built a dry ambient, which was a great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere. Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that. Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but most psubbers end up buying a copy of it. Cheers Alan New Zealand From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the pond in around two years! I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut size or a tiny bit smaller. I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull. That would only limit me down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale? Probably worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build from scratch. On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the East Coast. 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 3 16:30:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 21:30:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project In-Reply-To: <158c5d4d097-1ec2-3a11@webprd-a22.mail.aol.com> References: <715626783.5461388.1480717123934@mail.yahoo.com> <158c5d4d097-1ec2-3a11@webprd-a22.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <1694186924.5839893.1480800623306@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Ludwig, Cliff's R300 (on psubs project page) was a similar design to?Graham Hawke's?Falcon. It had a jet unit out back that rotated for steering, & dive planes. Cliff has now taken off the jet unit & gone to two horizontal & two vertical thrusters. Graham Hawke's latest sub "The Dragon" has horizontal & vertical thrusters. I met one of Hawke's previous business partners who has now partnered with Nuytco to develop the Orcasub. He didn't like the "Deep Flight" flying concept & didn't think it worked well. Orcasub link below. http://nuytco.com/products/orcasub/ The Falcon might be OK in 200ft visibility water, but has lack of manouverability for normal conditions. Additionally, as you are building an ambient, which is not as safe as a 1atm, it is handy to have two horizontal thrusters to compensate for any sudden buoyancy changes. Have a friend that dived in the Falcoln in Fiji. He said it was really hot on the surface & remained hot under the water. It has a composite hull, so not much heat transfer. With your breathing air coming in at 20 liters a minute in an ambient, it does cool you a bit. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 6:56 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I will try to get a picture drawn and post it when I get the time this weekend. Has anyone tried building a sub with the controls like the Deepflight super falcon sub? ? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Luwig, Doug had large flat acrylic ports glued in to a frame with Sika Flex, on his ambient sub "Seeker". http://svseeker.com/submarine.htm He never got to dive it & sold it as is. He had the acrylic set up so that the pressure was pushing against the glue & not the frame. I didn't think this was wise, as it could be fatal if the glue failed. Acrylic scratches easily & is not as impact resistant as fiberglass. Your submarine has to weigh as much as the water displaced to be neutrally bouyant. Imagine your hull being a solid block of ice, & you will get a picture of the weight involved. The owner of the "dry dive" told me he hit a pinacle under the water & it was a massive impact even at slow speed. So build for strength. I would imagine acrylic of the thickness you need would be quite expensive. There are a couple of manufacturers in the States that sell acrylic domes at reasonable prices in varying sizes & up to I think 10mm thick. The domes for 1atm subs can cost thousands. If you want to post an image of your ideas we could comment on it. I am getting the impression you are wanting to build something like a fish tank! Even a pencil drawing will do. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of how big the book is! ? Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest? ?Any idea on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic Sheets on an ambient sub? ?I'm thinking about making the frame out of aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic. ?For more complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass.??Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before?? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig,just a brief run down on the thrusters. most people modify trolling motors for underwater use. The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page. I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient, 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was dubious. Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils. A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical thrusters. Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient.. http://www.fugusub.com/ The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns you. 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater. If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well. The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep water out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure outside. This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air compensated thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken the spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion of air on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good) I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd stage regulator. With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors. Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down it. (cheap) I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the seals & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the air compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure keeps the oil pressurized. A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over propulsion. What type of motor should I look at for my sub? ?Should I go with AC or DC motor? The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct? ?I was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to protect them. It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look though for tips/ideas! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf. If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside circular cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke off the circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I retrospectively decided to make an ambient out of my model. The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in fiberglass sandwiches to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. (Not the Doug that replied to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard filler with the resin to go between the gaps of the stringers. You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round section. I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, then fiberglass. If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the temperature. If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you need, buy the parts, make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as the temptation is to build the hull so you can see some progress. ?? Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would recommend that as a first step. Pleased to help with your future build. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for all the information! ?I'm going to be spending the next couple of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor. Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was strong enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one shot. Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the top & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol. On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Alan,Thanks for the name. ?I forgot it was called a moon pool. ?You did bring up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex. ?I got to think about it for a while if it's worth having. I have experience?with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem.What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did you put down? ?And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs? ?Do you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, they call that a moon pool. Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_jr_2010.htm He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & the bouncing motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air in his hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him to descend. As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing negative buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was only 20ft down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water. ?? You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic pipe. I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your life at stake. Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill holes through & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as strong if you want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester resin. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving bell). Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the hull? ?[This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub]Would that be cost effective? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to be water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are vulnerable to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't ask me what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all capacitors are not the same. There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be regarded as a semi-dry. I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it would compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that. Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in mildly rough conditions. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for the information Alan! I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design. ?Also since I will be working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor) Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a structural difference? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig,On?my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't free flow)attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports down to stop water coming in.With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to equalize the hull,& any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air is automaticallyprovided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use.I can elaborate if you go that path.Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub! ? Any idea on how they maintain the air volume? ?When scuba diving, you just manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do something different. How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume? -Ludwig? -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig,I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the topof your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a dry ambient,but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continuallycompresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy.Most are built out of fiberglass. Alan ? From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on visiting Scott in the next few weeks. I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route. ?Have a mix between a wet and a dry ambient sub! Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub? ?What building material should I use? ?Should I go with steel or fiberglass? -Ludwig?? ? -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters is definitely recommended. ? Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere.? If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress. ?~ Douglas S. ? On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ludwig,I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & thereare aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch.You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom ofyour hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure& everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lotof internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub upsidedown and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your hatchwill be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want themin the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft.You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life supportplus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at 100ft.So a lot of air needed.?You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you arediving to. I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient.Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer then two years to built a 1 atm sub. What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine.? I would learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and start building a 1 atm sub.? I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person. I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry ambient submarine won't be much of a problem. -Ludwig? -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, welcome.If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finisha 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need a similar amount of time.?I built a dry ambient, which was a great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere.??? Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that.Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but mostpsubbers end up buying a copy of it.Cheers AlanNew Zealand From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the pond in around two years! I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut size or a tiny bit smaller. I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull.? That would only limit me down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale?? Probably?worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build from scratch. On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the East Coast. Get Outlook for Android ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 3 16:47:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 21:47:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project In-Reply-To: <158c5d4d097-1ec2-3a11@webprd-a22.mail.aol.com> References: <715626783.5461388.1480717123934@mail.yahoo.com> <158c5d4d097-1ec2-3a11@webprd-a22.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <397278457.5912211.1480801621774@mail.yahoo.com> Ludwig,Error in my last email.Should read "handy to have 2 vertical thrusters", not horizontal".Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 6:56 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I will try to get a picture drawn and post it when I get the time this weekend. Has anyone tried building a sub with the controls like the Deepflight super falcon sub? ? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Luwig, Doug had large flat acrylic ports glued in to a frame with Sika Flex, on his ambient sub "Seeker". http://svseeker.com/submarine.htm He never got to dive it & sold it as is. He had the acrylic set up so that the pressure was pushing against the glue & not the frame. I didn't think this was wise, as it could be fatal if the glue failed. Acrylic scratches easily & is not as impact resistant as fiberglass. Your submarine has to weigh as much as the water displaced to be neutrally bouyant. Imagine your hull being a solid block of ice, & you will get a picture of the weight involved. The owner of the "dry dive" told me he hit a pinacle under the water & it was a massive impact even at slow speed. So build for strength. I would imagine acrylic of the thickness you need would be quite expensive. There are a couple of manufacturers in the States that sell acrylic domes at reasonable prices in varying sizes & up to I think 10mm thick. The domes for 1atm subs can cost thousands. If you want to post an image of your ideas we could comment on it. I am getting the impression you are wanting to build something like a fish tank! Even a pencil drawing will do. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of how big the book is! ? Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest? ?Any idea on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic Sheets on an ambient sub? ?I'm thinking about making the frame out of aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic. ?For more complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass.??Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before?? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig,just a brief run down on the thrusters. most people modify trolling motors for underwater use. The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page. I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient, 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was dubious. Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils. A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical thrusters. Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient.. http://www.fugusub.com/ The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns you. 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater. If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well. The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep water out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure outside. This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air compensated thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken the spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion of air on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good) I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd stage regulator. With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors. Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down it. (cheap) I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the seals & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the air compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure keeps the oil pressurized. A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over propulsion. What type of motor should I look at for my sub? ?Should I go with AC or DC motor? The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct? ?I was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to protect them. It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look though for tips/ideas! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf. If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside circular cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke off the circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I retrospectively decided to make an ambient out of my model. The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in fiberglass sandwiches to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. (Not the Doug that replied to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard filler with the resin to go between the gaps of the stringers. You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round section. I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, then fiberglass. If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the temperature. If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you need, buy the parts, make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as the temptation is to build the hull so you can see some progress. ?? Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would recommend that as a first step. Pleased to help with your future build. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for all the information! ?I'm going to be spending the next couple of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor. Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was strong enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one shot. Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the top & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol. On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Alan,Thanks for the name. ?I forgot it was called a moon pool. ?You did bring up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex. ?I got to think about it for a while if it's worth having. I have experience?with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem.What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did you put down? ?And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs? ?Do you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, they call that a moon pool. Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_jr_2010.htm He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & the bouncing motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air in his hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him to descend. As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing negative buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was only 20ft down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water. ?? You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic pipe. I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your life at stake. Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill holes through & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as strong if you want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester resin. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving bell). Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the hull? ?[This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub]Would that be cost effective? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to be water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are vulnerable to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't ask me what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all capacitors are not the same. There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be regarded as a semi-dry. I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it would compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that. Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in mildly rough conditions. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for the information Alan! I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design. ?Also since I will be working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor) Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a structural difference? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig,On?my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't free flow)attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports down to stop water coming in.With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to equalize the hull,& any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air is automaticallyprovided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use.I can elaborate if you go that path.Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub! ? Any idea on how they maintain the air volume? ?When scuba diving, you just manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do something different. How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume? -Ludwig? -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig,I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the topof your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a dry ambient,but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continuallycompresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy.Most are built out of fiberglass. Alan ? From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on visiting Scott in the next few weeks. I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route. ?Have a mix between a wet and a dry ambient sub! Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub? ?What building material should I use? ?Should I go with steel or fiberglass? -Ludwig?? ? -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters is definitely recommended. ? Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere.? If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress. ?~ Douglas S. ? On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ludwig,I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & thereare aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch.You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom ofyour hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure& everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lotof internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub upsidedown and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your hatchwill be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want themin the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft.You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life supportplus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at 100ft.So a lot of air needed.?You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you arediving to. I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient.Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer then two years to built a 1 atm sub. What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine.? I would learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and start building a 1 atm sub.? I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person. I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry ambient submarine won't be much of a problem. -Ludwig? -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, welcome.If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finisha 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need a similar amount of time.?I built a dry ambient, which was a great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere.??? Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that.Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but mostpsubbers end up buying a copy of it.Cheers AlanNew Zealand From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the pond in around two years! I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut size or a tiny bit smaller. I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull.? That would only limit me down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale?? Probably?worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build from scratch. On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the East Coast. Get Outlook for Android ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 3 16:49:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 22:49:07 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project In-Reply-To: <1694186924.5839893.1480800623306@mail.yahoo.com> References: <715626783.5461388.1480717123934@mail.yahoo.com> <158c5d4d097-1ec2-3a11@webprd-a22.mail.aol.com> <1694186924.5839893.1480800623306@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <019501d24daf$13195ad0$394c1070$@nl> Hi Alan, Yep, You need air-conditioning in warm waters and a composite hull. When you dived with me the cabin temperature was perfect. -steel hull -water temp 12 deg. Celsius on average -3 persons (abt. 1400 Watt heat) Ludwig , are you aware of the risk of descending to quick in a dry ambient? Regards, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zaterdag 3 december 2016 22:30 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, Cliff's R300 (on psubs project page) was a similar design to Graham Hawke's Falcon. It had a jet unit out back that rotated for steering, & dive planes. Cliff has now taken off the jet unit & gone to two horizontal & two vertical thrusters. Graham Hawke's latest sub "The Dragon" has horizontal & vertical thrusters. I met one of Hawke's previous business partners who has now partnered with Nuytco to develop the Orcasub. He didn't like the "Deep Flight" flying concept & didn't think it worked well. Orcasub link below. http://nuytco.com/products/orcasub/ The Falcon might be OK in 200ft visibility water, but has lack of manouverability for normal conditions. Additionally, as you are building an ambient, which is not as safe as a 1atm, it is handy to have two horizontal thrusters to compensate for any sudden buoyancy changes. Have a friend that dived in the Falcoln in Fiji. He said it was really hot on the surface & remained hot under the water. It has a composite hull, so not much heat transfer. With your breathing air coming in at 20 liters a minute in an ambient, it does cool you a bit. Cheers Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 6:56 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I will try to get a picture drawn and post it when I get the time this weekend. Has anyone tried building a sub with the controls like the Deepflight super falcon sub? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Luwig, Doug had large flat acrylic ports glued in to a frame with Sika Flex, on his ambient sub "Seeker". http://svseeker.com/submarine.htm He never got to dive it & sold it as is. He had the acrylic set up so that the pressure was pushing against the glue & not the frame. I didn't think this was wise, as it could be fatal if the glue failed. Acrylic scratches easily & is not as impact resistant as fiberglass. Your submarine has to weigh as much as the water displaced to be neutrally bouyant. Imagine your hull being a solid block of ice, & you will get a picture of the weight involved. The owner of the "dry dive" told me he hit a pinacle under the water & it was a massive impact even at slow speed. So build for strength. I would imagine acrylic of the thickness you need would be quite expensive. There are a couple of manufacturers in the States that sell acrylic domes at reasonable prices in varying sizes & up to I think 10mm thick. The domes for 1atm subs can cost thousands. If you want to post an image of your ideas we could comment on it. I am getting the impression you are wanting to build something like a fish tank! Even a pencil drawing will do. Cheers Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of how big the book is! Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest? Any idea on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic Sheets on an ambient sub? I'm thinking about making the frame out of aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic. For more complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass. Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, just a brief run down on the thrusters. most people modify trolling motors for underwater use. The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page. I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient, 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was dubious. Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils. A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical thrusters. Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient.. http://www.fugusub.com/ The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns you. 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater. If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well. The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep water out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure outside. This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air compensated thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken the spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion of air on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good) I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd stage regulator. With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors. Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down it. (cheap) I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the seals & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the air compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure keeps the oil pressurized. A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle. Cheers Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over propulsion. What type of motor should I look at for my sub? Should I go with AC or DC motor? The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct? I was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to protect them. It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look though for tips/ideas! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf. If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside circular cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke off the circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I retrospectively decided to make an ambient out of my model. The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in fiberglass sandwiches to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. (Not the Doug that replied to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard filler with the resin to go between the gaps of the stringers. You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round section. I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, then fiberglass. If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the temperature. If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you need, buy the parts, make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as the temptation is to build the hull so you can see some progress. Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would recommend that as a first step. Pleased to help with your future build. Regards Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for all the information! I'm going to be spending the next couple of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor. Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was strong enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one shot. Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the top & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol. On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs. Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Alan, Thanks for the name. I forgot it was called a moon pool. You did bring up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex. I got to think about it for a while if it's worth having. I have experience with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem. What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did you put down? And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs? Do you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, they call that a moon pool. Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_jr_2010.htm He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & the bouncing motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air in his hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him to descend. As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing negative buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was only 20ft down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water. You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic pipe. I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your life at stake. Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill holes through & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as strong if you want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester resin. Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving bell). Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the hull? [This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub] Would that be cost effective? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to be water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are vulnerable to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't ask me what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all capacitors are not the same. There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be regarded as a semi-dry. I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it would compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that. Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in mildly rough conditions. Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for the information Alan! I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design. Also since I will be working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor) Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a structural difference? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, On my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't free flow) attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports down to stop water coming in. With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to equalize the hull, & any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air is automatically provided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use. I can elaborate if you go that path. Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub! Any idea on how they maintain the air volume? When scuba diving, you just manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do something different. How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the top of your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a dry ambient, but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continually compresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy. Most are built out of fiberglass. Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on visiting Scott in the next few weeks. I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route. Have a mix between a wet and a dry ambient sub! Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub? What building material should I use? Should I go with steel or fiberglass? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters is definitely recommended. Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere. If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress. ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ludwig, I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & there are aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch. You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom of your hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure & everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lot of internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub upside down and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your hatch will be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want them in the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft. You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life support plus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at 100ft. So a lot of air needed. You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you are diving to. I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/ I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient. Regards Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer then two years to built a 1 atm sub. What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine. I would learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and start building a 1 atm sub. I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person. I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry ambient submarine won't be much of a problem. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, welcome. If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finish a 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need a similar amount of time. I built a dry ambient, which was a great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere. Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that. Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but most psubbers end up buying a copy of it. Cheers Alan New Zealand _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the pond in around two years! I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut size or a tiny bit smaller. I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull. That would only limit me down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale? Probably worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build from scratch. On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the East Coast. 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 3 22:15:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 22:15:10 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project In-Reply-To: <019501d24daf$13195ad0$394c1070$@nl> Message-ID: <158c7d402c2-3537-5089@webprd-a108.mail.aol.com> Emile, besides your ears having to adjust to the pressure change, am I forgetting something? All these problems that comes with an ambient sub is making me want to build a one atmosphere sub! The only issue that I stated before is that I will be moving out of the country (going to be moving to Germany) in around two years and won't have the time and space to bring a sub with me. Instead of building a dry sub, maybe I should be looking into a wet sub. Has anyone here attempted building a wet sub before? Does anyone here know if there are any vlog (video blog) type videos on submarines/submersibles? There are a lot of vlogs over flying, sailing and other activities and I'm thinking that the submarine community could benefit from it because it will help promote the sport/activity. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 3:49 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Alan, Yep, You need air-conditioning in warm waters and a composite hull. When you dived with me the cabin temperature was perfect. -steel hull -water temp 12 deg. Celsius on average -3 persons (abt. 1400 Watt heat) Ludwig , are you aware of the risk of descending to quick in a dry ambient? Regards, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zaterdag 3 december 2016 22:30 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, Cliff's R300 (on psubs project page) was a similar design to Graham Hawke's Falcon. It had a jet unit out back that rotated for steering, & dive planes. Cliff has now taken off the jet unit & gone to two horizontal & two vertical thrusters. Graham Hawke's latest sub "The Dragon" has horizontal & vertical thrusters. I met one of Hawke's previous business partners who has now partnered with Nuytco to develop the Orcasub. He didn't like the "Deep Flight" flying concept & didn't think it worked well. Orcasub link below. http://nuytco.com/products/orcasub/ The Falcon might be OK in 200ft visibility water, but has lack of manouverability for normal conditions. Additionally, as you are building an ambient, which is not as safe as a 1atm, it is handy to have two horizontal thrusters to compensate for any sudden buoyancy changes. Have a friend that dived in the Falcoln in Fiji. He said it was really hot on the surface & remained hot under the water. It has a composite hull, so not much heat transfer. With your breathing air coming in at 20 liters a minute in an ambient, it does cool you a bit. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 6:56 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I will try to get a picture drawn and post it when I get the time this weekend. Has anyone tried building a sub with the controls like the Deepflight super falcon sub? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Luwig, Doug had large flat acrylic ports glued in to a frame with Sika Flex, on his ambient sub "Seeker". http://svseeker.com/submarine.htm He never got to dive it & sold it as is. He had the acrylic set up so that the pressure was pushing against the glue & not the frame. I didn't think this was wise, as it could be fatal if the glue failed. Acrylic scratches easily & is not as impact resistant as fiberglass. Your submarine has to weigh as much as the water displaced to be neutrally bouyant. Imagine your hull being a solid block of ice, & you will get a picture of the weight involved. The owner of the "dry dive" told me he hit a pinacle under the water & it was a massive impact even at slow speed. So build for strength. I would imagine acrylic of the thickness you need would be quite expensive. There are a couple of manufacturers in the States that sell acrylic domes at reasonable prices in varying sizes & up to I think 10mm thick. The domes for 1atm subs can cost thousands. If you want to post an image of your ideas we could comment on it. I am getting the impression you are wanting to build something like a fish tank! Even a pencil drawing will do. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of how big the book is! Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest? Any idea on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic Sheets on an ambient sub? I'm thinking about making the frame out of aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic. For more complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass. Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, just a brief run down on the thrusters. most people modify trolling motors for underwater use. The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page. I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient, 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was dubious. Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils. A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical thrusters. Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient.. http://www.fugusub.com/ The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns you. 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater. If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well. The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep water out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure outside. This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air compensated thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken the spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion of air on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good) I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd stage regulator. With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors. Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down it. (cheap) I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the seals & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the air compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure keeps the oil pressurized. A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over propulsion. What type of motor should I look at for my sub? Should I go with AC or DC motor? The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct? I was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to protect them. It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look though for tips/ideas! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf. If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside circular cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke off the circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I retrospectively decided to make an ambient out of my model. The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in fiberglass sandwiches to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. (Not the Doug that replied to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard filler with the resin to go between the gaps of the stringers. You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round section. I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, then fiberglass. If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the temperature. If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you need, buy the parts, make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as the temptation is to build the hull so you can see some progress. Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would recommend that as a first step. Pleased to help with your future build. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for all the information! I'm going to be spending the next couple of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor. Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was strong enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one shot. Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the top & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol. On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Alan, Thanks for the name. I forgot it was called a moon pool. You did bring up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex. I got to think about it for a while if it's worth having. I have experience with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem. What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did you put down? And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs? Do you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, they call that a moon pool. Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_jr_2010.htm He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & the bouncing motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air in his hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him to descend. As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing negative buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was only 20ft down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water. You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic pipe. I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your life at stake. Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill holes through & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as strong if you want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester resin. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving bell). Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the hull? [This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub] Would that be cost effective? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to be water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are vulnerable to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't ask me what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all capacitors are not the same. There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be regarded as a semi-dry. I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it would compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that. Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in mildly rough conditions. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for the information Alan! I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design. Also since I will be working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor) Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a structural difference? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, On my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't free flow) attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports down to stop water coming in. With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to equalize the hull, & any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air is automatically provided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use. I can elaborate if you go that path. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub! Any idea on how they maintain the air volume? When scuba diving, you just manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do something different. How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the top of your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a dry ambient, but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continually compresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy. Most are built out of fiberglass. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on visiting Scott in the next few weeks. I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route. Have a mix between a wet and a dry ambient sub! Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub? What building material should I use? Should I go with steel or fiberglass? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters is definitely recommended. Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere. If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress. ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ludwig, I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & there are aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch. You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom of your hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure & everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lot of internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub upside down and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your hatch will be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want them in the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft. You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life support plus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at 100ft. So a lot of air needed. You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you are diving to. I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/ I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer then two years to built a 1 atm sub. What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine. I would learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and start building a 1 atm sub. I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person. I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry ambient submarine won't be much of a problem. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, welcome. If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finish a 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need a similar amount of time. I built a dry ambient, which was a great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere. Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that. Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but most psubbers end up buying a copy of it. Cheers Alan New Zealand From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the pond in around two years! I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut size or a tiny bit smaller. I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull. That would only limit me down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale? Probably worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build from scratch. On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the East Coast. 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 4 12:04:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 17:04:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hydraulic fluid choice References: <242835485.5510450.1480871097637.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <242835485.5510450.1480871097637@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,You made me realize a problem I will have with WD40 as hydraulic fluid. ?It dose harden plastic, and my hyd lines will be PH nylon lines. ?So my solution is,,,, my hydraulic pump will be driven by a Minn Kota thruster motor. ?The motor will be filled with WD40 or similar. ?The motor\pump will then be submerged in the hydraulic oil reservoir ?along with the electric valve bank. ?The reservoir will be a fibreglass tank with a rubber lid. ?I can use regular hydraulic fluid that is compatable with the valve and pump but not compatible with an electric motor. ?Eezy PeezyHank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 4 14:44:29 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 19:44:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hydraulic fluid choice In-Reply-To: <242835485.5510450.1480871097637@mail.yahoo.com> References: <242835485.5510450.1480871097637.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <242835485.5510450.1480871097637@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1789303101.6174634.1480880669722@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, a Minn kotta motor seems like a huge overkill. I would think that the WD40 would be more destructive than the hydraulic oil anyway. There are lots of oils you can use for hydraulics; perhaps find one that is going to be kinder to your motor windings & just drop a brushed motor in it. The oil might be more viscous, but you could perhaps increase the pressure on the motor brushes to avoid what Dr Phil calls "Herky Jerky" movement of the motor caused by centrifigal force of the oil at speed, pulling the brushes off the commutator. Easy to drop a motor in a bucket of oil & test it. You get more wear of the brushes with more pressure, but you will only be using the hydraulics when you find that gold bar; so this would be a non issue. Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 6:04 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hydraulic fluid choice Alan,You made me realize a problem I will have with WD40 as hydraulic fluid. ?It dose harden plastic, and my hyd lines will be PH nylon lines. ?So my solution is,,,, my hydraulic pump will be driven by a Minn Kota thruster motor. ?The motor will be filled with WD40 or similar. ?The motor\pump will then be submerged in the hydraulic oil reservoir ?along with the electric valve bank. ?The reservoir will be a fibreglass tank with a rubber lid. ?I can use regular hydraulic fluid that is compatable with the valve and pump but not compatible with an electric motor. ?Eezy PeezyHank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 4 15:39:21 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 21:39:21 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project In-Reply-To: <158c7d402c2-3537-5089@webprd-a108.mail.aol.com> References: <019501d24daf$13195ad0$394c1070$@nl> <158c7d402c2-3537-5089@webprd-a108.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <01c101d24e6e$7e6bd190$7b4374b0$@nl> Ludwig, The risk of descending quicker than the air regulators can deliver. Water level inside rise and you are falling quicker? 1 ATM subs are the choice of nearly all the people on the list. For a cheap fun project I would go for a wetsub; it is just a UW scooter with buoyancy system and fairing Or you can design your sub and build the smaller assy?s in the US. Then continue in Germany with the hull ;-) I don?t know any vlogs but some psubbers keep a personal website or Fb page with new stuff. I believe there are links on the Psub site. Regards, Emile van Essen , the Netherlands Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zondag 4 december 2016 4:15 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Emile, besides your ears having to adjust to the pressure change, am I forgetting something? All these problems that comes with an ambient sub is making me want to build a one atmosphere sub! The only issue that I stated before is that I will be moving out of the country (going to be moving to Germany) in around two years and won't have the time and space to bring a sub with me. Instead of building a dry sub, maybe I should be looking into a wet sub. Has anyone here attempted building a wet sub before? Does anyone here know if there are any vlog (video blog) type videos on submarines/submersibles? There are a lot of vlogs over flying, sailing and other activities and I'm thinking that the submarine community could benefit from it because it will help promote the sport/activity. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: emile via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 3:49 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Alan, Yep, You need air-conditioning in warm waters and a composite hull. When you dived with me the cabin temperature was perfect. -steel hull -water temp 12 deg. Celsius on average -3 persons (abt. 1400 Watt heat) Ludwig , are you aware of the risk of descending to quick in a dry ambient? Regards, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [ mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zaterdag 3 december 2016 22:30 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, Cliff's R300 (on psubs project page) was a similar design to Graham Hawke's Falcon. It had a jet unit out back that rotated for steering, & dive planes. Cliff has now taken off the jet unit & gone to two horizontal & two vertical thrusters. Graham Hawke's latest sub "The Dragon" has horizontal & vertical thrusters. I met one of Hawke's previous business partners who has now partnered with Nuytco to develop the Orcasub. He didn't like the "Deep Flight" flying concept & didn't think it worked well. Orcasub link below. http://nuytco.com/products/orcasub/ The Falcon might be OK in 200ft visibility water, but has lack of manouverability for normal conditions. Additionally, as you are building an ambient, which is not as safe as a 1atm, it is handy to have two horizontal thrusters to compensate for any sudden buoyancy changes. Have a friend that dived in the Falcoln in Fiji. He said it was really hot on the surface & remained hot under the water. It has a composite hull, so not much heat transfer. With your breathing air coming in at 20 liters a minute in an ambient, it does cool you a bit. Cheers Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 6:56 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I will try to get a picture drawn and post it when I get the time this weekend. Has anyone tried building a sub with the controls like the Deepflight super falcon sub? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Luwig, Doug had large flat acrylic ports glued in to a frame with Sika Flex, on his ambient sub "Seeker". http://svseeker.com/submarine.htm He never got to dive it & sold it as is. He had the acrylic set up so that the pressure was pushing against the glue & not the frame. I didn't think this was wise, as it could be fatal if the glue failed. Acrylic scratches easily & is not as impact resistant as fiberglass. Your submarine has to weigh as much as the water displaced to be neutrally bouyant. Imagine your hull being a solid block of ice, & you will get a picture of the weight involved. The owner of the "dry dive" told me he hit a pinacle under the water & it was a massive impact even at slow speed. So build for strength. I would imagine acrylic of the thickness you need would be quite expensive. There are a couple of manufacturers in the States that sell acrylic domes at reasonable prices in varying sizes & up to I think 10mm thick. The domes for 1atm subs can cost thousands. If you want to post an image of your ideas we could comment on it. I am getting the impression you are wanting to build something like a fish tank! Even a pencil drawing will do. Cheers Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of how big the book is! Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest? Any idea on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic Sheets on an ambient sub? I'm thinking about making the frame out of aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic. For more complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass. Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, just a brief run down on the thrusters. most people modify trolling motors for underwater use. The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page. I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient, 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was dubious. Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils. A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical thrusters. Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient.. http://www.fugusub.com/ The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns you. 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater. If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well. The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep water out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure outside. This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air compensated thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken the spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion of air on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good) I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd stage regulator. With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors. Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down it. (cheap) I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the seals & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the air compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure keeps the oil pressurized. A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle. Cheers Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over propulsion. What type of motor should I look at for my sub? Should I go with AC or DC motor? The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct? I was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to protect them. It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look though for tips/ideas! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf. If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside circular cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke off the circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I retrospectively decided to make an ambient out of my model. The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in fiberglass sandwiches to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. (Not the Doug that replied to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard filler with the resin to go between the gaps of the stringers. You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round section. I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, then fiberglass. If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the temperature. If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you need, buy the parts, make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as the temptation is to build the hull so you can see some progress. Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would recommend that as a first step. Pleased to help with your future build. Regards Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for all the information! I'm going to be spending the next couple of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor. Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was strong enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one shot. Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the top & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol. On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs. Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Alan, Thanks for the name. I forgot it was called a moon pool. You did bring up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex. I got to think about it for a while if it's worth having. I have experience with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem. What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did you put down? And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs? Do you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, they call that a moon pool. Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_jr_2010.htm He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & the bouncing motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air in his hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him to descend. As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing negative buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was only 20ft down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water. You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic pipe. I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your life at stake. Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill holes through & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as strong if you want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester resin. Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving bell). Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the hull? [This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub] Would that be cost effective? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to be water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are vulnerable to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't ask me what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all capacitors are not the same. There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be regarded as a semi-dry. I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it would compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that. Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in mildly rough conditions. Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for the information Alan! I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design. Also since I will be working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor) Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a structural difference? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, On my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't free flow) attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports down to stop water coming in. With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to equalize the hull, & any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air is automatically provided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use. I can elaborate if you go that path. Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub! Any idea on how they maintain the air volume? When scuba diving, you just manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do something different. How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the top of your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a dry ambient, but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continually compresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy. Most are built out of fiberglass. Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on visiting Scott in the next few weeks. I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route. Have a mix between a wet and a dry ambient sub! Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub? What building material should I use? Should I go with steel or fiberglass? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters is definitely recommended. Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere. If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress. ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Ludwig, I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & there are aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch. You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom of your hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure & everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lot of internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub upside down and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your hatch will be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want them in the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft. You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life support plus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at 100ft. So a lot of air needed. You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you are diving to. I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/ I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient. Regards Alan _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs. org> To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer then two years to built a 1 atm sub. What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine. I would learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and start building a 1 atm sub. I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person. I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry ambient submarine won't be much of a problem. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs. org> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs. org> Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, welcome. If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finish a 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need a similar amount of time. I built a dry ambient, which was a great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere. Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that. Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but most psubbers end up buying a copy of it. Cheers Alan New Zealand _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs. org> To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the pond in around two years! I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut size or a tiny bit smaller. I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull. That would only limit me down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs. org> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs. org> Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale? Probably worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build from scratch. On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote: I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the East Coast. Get Outlook for Android ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 4 15:52:27 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 12:52:27 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pin Ball Wizard Message-ID: <20161204125227.C4023547@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 4 16:02:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 21:02:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project In-Reply-To: <158c7d402c2-3537-5089@webprd-a108.mail.aol.com> References: <019501d24daf$13195ad0$394c1070$@nl> <158c7d402c2-3537-5089@webprd-a108.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <1348578276.6275464.1480885332147@mail.yahoo.com> Ludwig, I was going to mention earlier that you can get great control with vertical thrusters. On Emile's sub, that has rotating thrusters, he can sit perfectly still an inch above a wreck. ?? I would go the wet sub or DPV route first off. You can just buy a trolling motors & air compensate them off an octopus regulator. You will have the experience of water proofing your electronics, soughting out controllers & ballasting. That will keep you busy for a while. I have been thinking of building a DPV / wet sub so that I can get the tank off my back & scoot around without getting cramp :) Maybe with a coiled breathing hose long enough to get in to some crayfish holes.The dry ambient can certainly be cheaper than a 1atm, especially if you want large hemisphericalview ports. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Emile,? besides your ears having to adjust to the pressure change, am I forgetting something? ?? All these problems that comes with an ambient sub is making me want to build a one atmosphere sub! ? The only issue that I stated before is that I will be moving out of the country (going to be moving to Germany) in around two years and won't have the time and space to bring a sub with me. ?Instead of building a dry sub, maybe I should be looking into a wet sub. ?Has anyone here attempted building a wet sub before? ? ? ? Does anyone here know if there are any vlog (video blog) type videos on submarines/submersibles? ?There are a lot of vlogs over flying, sailing and other activities and I'm thinking that the submarine community could benefit from it because it will help promote the sport/activity. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 3:49 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project #yiv9375515295 #yiv9375515295AOLMsgPart_1.yiv93755152952_5fce1d35-07ba-45e7-ae75-c208d11a25f2 td{color:black;} _filtered #yiv9375515295 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9375515295 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9375515295 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9375515295 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody p.yiv9375515295MsoNormal, #yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody li.yiv9375515295MsoNormal, #yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody div.yiv9375515295MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody a:link, #yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody span.yiv9375515295MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody a:visited, #yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody span.yiv9375515295MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody p.yiv9375515295MsoAcetate, #yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody li.yiv9375515295MsoAcetate, #yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody div.yiv9375515295MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody span {}#yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody span.yiv9375515295E-mailStijl18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody span.yiv9375515295BallontekstChar {}#yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody .yiv9375515295MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9375515295 {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}#yiv9375515295 .yiv9375515295aolReplacedBody div.yiv9375515295WordSection1 {}Hi Alan,?Yep, You ?need air-conditioning ?in warm waters and a composite hull. When you dived with me the cabin temperature was perfect. -steel hull-water temp 12 deg. Celsius on average-3 persons (abt. 1400 Watt heat)?Ludwig , are you aware of the risk of descending to quick in a dry ambient??Regards, Emile?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zaterdag 3 december 2016 22:30 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project?Hi Ludwig, Cliff's R300 (on psubs project page) was a similar design to?Graham Hawke's?Falcon. It had a jet unit out back that rotated for steering, & dive planes. Cliff has now taken off the jet unit & gone to two horizontal & two vertical thrusters. Graham Hawke's latest sub "The Dragon" has horizontal & vertical thrusters. I met one of Hawke's previous business partners who has now partnered with Nuytco to develop the Orcasub. He didn't like the "Deep Flight" flying concept & didn't think it worked well. Orcasub link below. http://nuytco.com/products/orcasub/ The Falcon might be OK in 200ft visibility water, but has lack of manouverability for normal conditions. Additionally, as you are building an ambient, which is not as safe as a 1atm, it is handy to have two horizontal thrusters to compensate for any sudden buoyancy changes. Have a friend that dived in the Falcoln in Fiji. He said it was really hot on the surface & remained hot under the water. It has a composite hull, so not much heat transfer. With your breathing air coming in at 20 liters a minute in an ambient, it does cool you a bit. Cheers Alan ?From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 6:56 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project?I will try to get a picture drawn and post it when I get the time this weekend. ?Has anyone tried building a sub with the controls like the Deepflight super falcon sub? ? -Ludwig?-----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible projectHi Luwig, Doug had large flat acrylic ports glued in to a frame with Sika Flex, on his ambient sub "Seeker". http://svseeker.com/submarine.htm He never got to dive it & sold it as is. He had the acrylic set up so that the pressure was pushing against the glue & not the frame. I didn't think this was wise, as it could be fatal if the glue failed. Acrylic scratches easily & is not as impact resistant as fiberglass. Your submarine has to weigh as much as the water displaced to be neutrally bouyant. Imagine your hull being a solid block of ice, & you will get a picture of the weight involved. The owner of the "dry dive" told me he hit a pinacle under the water & it was a massive impact even at slow speed. So build for strength. I would imagine acrylic of the thickness you need would be quite expensive. There are a couple of manufacturers in the States that sell acrylic domes at reasonable prices in varying sizes & up to I think 10mm thick. The domes for 1atm subs can cost thousands. If you want to post an image of your ideas we could comment on it. I am getting the impression you are wanting to build something like a fish tank! Even a pencil drawing will do. Cheers Alan?From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project?I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of how big the book is! ? Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest? ?Any idea on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? ??Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic Sheets on an ambient sub? ?I'm thinking about making the frame out of aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic. ?For more complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass.??Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before????-Ludwig??-----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible projectHi Ludwig,just a brief run down on the thrusters. most people modify trolling motors for underwater use. The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page. I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient, 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was dubious. Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils. A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical thrusters. Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient.. http://www.fugusub.com/ The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns you. 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater. If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well. The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep water out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure outside. This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air compensated thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken the spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion of air on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good) I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd stage regulator. With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors. Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down it. (cheap) I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the seals & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the air compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure keeps the oil pressurized. A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle. Cheers Alan?From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project?I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over propulsion. ?What type of motor should I look at for my sub? ?Should I go with AC or DC motor??The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct? ?I was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to protect them.?It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look though for tips/ideas!?-Ludwig?-----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible projectLudwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf. If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside circular cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke off the circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I retrospectively decided to make an ambient out of my model. The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in fiberglass sandwiches to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. (Not the Doug that replied to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard filler with the resin to go between the gaps of the stringers. You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round section. I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, then fiberglass. If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the temperature. If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you need, buy the parts, make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as the temptation is to build the hull so you can see some progress. ?? Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would recommend that as a first step. Pleased to help with your future build. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project?Thanks for all the information! ?I'm going to be spending the next couple of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor. Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? ?Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail!?-Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible projectHi Ludwig, I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was strong enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one shot. Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the top & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol. On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs. Alan?From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project?Alan,Thanks for the name. ?I forgot it was called a moon pool. ?You did bring up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex. ?I got to think about it for a while if it's worth having.?I have experience?with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem.What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did you put down???And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs? ?Do you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper??-Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible projectLudwig, they call that a moon pool. Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_jr_2010.htm He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & the bouncing motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air in his hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him to descend. As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing negative buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was only 20ft down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water. ?? You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic pipe. I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your life at stake. Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill holes through & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as strong if you want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester resin. Alan?From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project?What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving bell).?Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the hull? ?[This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub]Would that be cost effective???-Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible projectLudwig, the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to be water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are vulnerable to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't ask me what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all capacitors are not the same. There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be regarded as a semi-dry. I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it would compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that. Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in mildly rough conditions. Alan ?From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project?Thanks for the information Alan! ?I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design. ?Also since I will be working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor)?Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a structural difference??-Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible projectLudwig,On?my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't free flow)attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports down to stop water coming in.With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to equalize the hull,& any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air is automaticallyprovided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use.I can elaborate if you go that path.Alan?From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project?The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub! ? ?Any idea on how they maintain the air volume? ?When scuba diving, you just manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do something different.?How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume??-Ludwig? -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible projectLudwig,I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the topof your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a dry ambient,but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continuallycompresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy.Most are built out of fiberglass. Alan ?From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project?I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on visiting Scott in the next few weeks. ?I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route. ?Have a mix between a wet and a dry ambient sub!?Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub? ?What building material should I use? ?Should I go with steel or fiberglass??-Ludwig?? ? -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible projectWelcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters is definitely recommended. ? ?Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere.??If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress. ?~ Douglas S. ??On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote:Ludwig,I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & thereare aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch.You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom ofyour hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure& everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lotof internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub upsidedown and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your hatchwill be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want themin the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft.You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life supportplus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at 100ft.So a lot of air needed.?You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you arediving to. I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient.Regards Alan?From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project?I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer then two years to built a 1 atm sub. ?What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine.? I would learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and start building a 1 atm sub.? I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person.?I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry ambient submarine won't be much of a problem.?-Ludwig? -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible projectHi Ludwig, welcome.If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finisha 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need a similar amount of time.?I built a dry ambient, which was a great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere.??? Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that.Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but mostpsubbers end up buying a copy of it.Cheers AlanNew Zealand?From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project?That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the pond in around two years! ?I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut size or a tiny bit smaller.?I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull.? That would only limit me down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving.?-Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible projectI think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale?? Probably?worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build from scratch.?On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote:I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the East Coast. Get Outlook for Android ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles?______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles?______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles?______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles?______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 4 16:07:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 21:07:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pin Ball Wizard In-Reply-To: <20161204125227.C4023547@m0087791.ppops.net> References: <20161204125227.C4023547@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: <927959647.6228003.1480885654885@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, I keep imagining some poor fish watching those lead balls drop & thinking that your metal monster is reproducing itself! Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 9:52 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pin Ball Wizard Hi All,???????????????????????? My drop hopper works like a charm !?? I just successfully dropped about 130 lbs of lead balls.?? One nice thing about it is that the disk stopper, that prevents the balls from falling out, doesn't really see the total weight of the balls that are in the hopper.? Most of the weight get distributed to the spherical hopper wall, so there is not the stress on the turning screw.? The turning screw is Acme stainless thread ( 3/4")? , actually what turns is the screw and the short piece of thread is what is attached to the disk holding plate which falls out.? It was a trip pouring all these balls into the hopper !?? I need to have somebody inside releasing so I can observe next time!???Cheers,??Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 4 17:21:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2016 15:21:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pin Ball Wizard In-Reply-To: DdmacWkiQAOgbDdmccEPBY References: DdmacWkiQAOgbDdmccEPBY Message-ID: Brian - is there any concern about the balls packing in tight due to vibration over time and not releasing? Sean On December 4, 2016 1:52:27 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi All, > >My drop hopper works like a charm ! I just successfully dropped about >130 lbs of lead balls. One nice thing about it is that the disk >stopper, that prevents the balls from falling out, doesn't really see >the total weight of the balls that are in the hopper. Most of the >weight get distributed to the spherical hopper wall, so there is not >the stress on the turning screw. The turning screw is Acme stainless >thread ( 3/4") , actually what turns is the screw and the short piece >of thread is what is attached to the disk holding plate which falls >out. It was a trip pouring all these balls into the hopper ! I need >to have somebody inside releasing so I can observe next time! > > > > > >Cheers, > > > >Brian > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 4 19:45:43 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 00:45:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hydraulic fluid choice In-Reply-To: <1789303101.6174634.1480880669722@mail.yahoo.com> References: <242835485.5510450.1480871097637.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <242835485.5510450.1480871097637@mail.yahoo.com> <1789303101.6174634.1480880669722@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1574263153.5636800.1480898743812@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,The minkota motor is better suited because the original motor on the pump is to fast. ?I would just be burning up amps trying to push oil through the tiny lines.Hank On Sunday, December 4, 2016 12:45 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, a Minn kotta motor seems like a huge overkill. I would think that the WD40 would be more destructive than the hydraulic oil anyway. There are lots of oils you can use for hydraulics; perhaps find one that is going to be kinder to your motor windings & just drop a brushed motor in it. The oil might be more viscous, but you could perhaps increase the pressure on the motor brushes to avoid what Dr Phil calls "Herky Jerky" movement of the motor caused by centrifigal force of the oil at speed, pulling the brushes off the commutator. Easy to drop a motor in a bucket of oil & test it. You get more wear of the brushes with more pressure, but you will only be using the hydraulics when you find that gold bar; so this would be a non issue. Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 6:04 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hydraulic fluid choice Alan,You made me realize a problem I will have with WD40 as hydraulic fluid. ?It dose harden plastic, and my hyd lines will be PH nylon lines. ?So my solution is,,,, my hydraulic pump will be driven by a Minn Kota thruster motor. ?The motor will be filled with WD40 or similar. ?The motor\pump will then be submerged in the hydraulic oil reservoir ?along with the electric valve bank. ?The reservoir will be a fibreglass tank with a rubber lid. ?I can use regular hydraulic fluid that is compatable with the valve and pump but not compatible with an electric motor. ?Eezy PeezyHank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 4 21:19:03 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 18:19:03 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pin Ball Wizard Message-ID: <20161204181903.C40315A7@m0087793.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 4 21:43:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2016 19:43:22 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pin Ball Wizard In-Reply-To: Dit7cgXMvaVASDit9cgtbC References: Dit7cgXMvaVASDit9cgtbC Message-ID: <33bd19c6-9dce-4b01-a220-462e079e7a75@email.android.com> What is the diameter of the lead balls? Interesting stuff. Sean On December 4, 2016 7:19:03 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean, When I started this project I did a bit of research on how sand >goes thru an hour glass. I managed to find a fairly detailed study on >the physics of the whole thing. One priority is that the balls are in >fact round and assuming they are then as it turns out you need to have >a ratio of 5 to 1 , 1, being the diameter of the balls and 5 being the >diameter of the hole that they will be going thru. So my hole is in >fact 5" in diameter and with it open there is absolutely no way the >balls can get lodged some how and not come out. To be sure I couldn't >explain physics behind it but I think it has to do with the coefficient >of friction between the balls encompassing the open 5" hole. I will >keep testing as I make more lead balls. The hopper can holed a lot >more than what I just tested. > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pin Ball Wizard >Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2016 15:21:50 -0700 > >Brian - is there any concern about the balls packing in tight due to >vibration over time and not releasing? > >Sean > > >On December 4, 2016 1:52:27 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Hi All, > >My drop hopper works like a charm ! I just successfully dropped about >130 lbs of lead balls. One nice thing about it is that the disk >stopper, that prevents the balls from falling out, doesn't really see >the total weight of the balls that are in the hopper. Most of the >weight get distributed to the spherical hopper wall, so there is not >the stress on the turning screw. The turning screw is Acme stainless >thread ( 3/4") , actually what turns is the screw and the short piece >of thread is what is attached to the disk holding plate which falls >out. It was a trip pouring all these balls into the hopper ! I need >to have somebody inside releasing so I can observe next time! > > > > > >Cheers, > > > >Brian > >_____________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 4 23:06:40 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 20:06:40 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pin Ball Wizard Message-ID: <20161204200640.C405AB1C@m0087798.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 4 23:36:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 20:36:56 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Varible ballast tank Message-ID: <20161204203656.C405AC9D@m0087798.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 07:28:20 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 12:28:20 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Message-ID: Hi All I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking. I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside. So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its better, but still awkward. I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself. Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show filling and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. What does everyone think? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 07:36:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 13:36:55 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi frank I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport platypus drinking bladder Works well Regards Antoine On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All > > I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me > thinking. > > I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber > tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. Problem > is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on > the inside. > > So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the > aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its better, but > still awkward. > > I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself. > Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and > filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would be a > rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show filling > and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. > > What does everyone think? > > > ? > ? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 08:12:27 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 13:12:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Varible ballast tank In-Reply-To: <20161204203656.C405AC9D@m0087798.ppops.net> References: <20161204203656.C405AC9D@m0087798.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1554422733.5934362.1480943547463@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I have done that exactly with an aluminum CO2 tank and drilled the hole in the flat bottom. ?The material is very thick on the flat bottom and it was easy to tap.Hank On Sunday, December 4, 2016 9:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??? I'm thinking of using a scuba tank as a inside the hull ballast tank, has this been done before??? I was going to lay it horizontally and tap a hole in the top and one at the bottom, so I can drain it better and control the elimination of the water better. I would have a valve arrangement where I could push the water out the bottom with HP air.? And also when filling I could vent the air in the tank into the cabin.?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 08:18:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 13:18:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 10:44:52 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 15:44:52 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for the aft motor. Hank, what do you use for a bladder? Thanks James On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, > I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works like > a dream. > Hank > > > On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi frank > I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled > compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with > long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. > The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport > platypus drinking bladder > Works well > Regards > Antoine > On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All > > I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me > thinking. > > I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber > tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. Problem > is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on > the inside. > > So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the > aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its better, but > still awkward. > > I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself. > Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and > filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would be a > rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show filling > and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. > > What does everyone think? > > > ? > ? > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 12:31:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <312456883.6097486.1480959082423@mail.yahoo.com> James,No bladder, nothing, fill er up and go diving. ?I drain the oil in the fall and put new in the spring. ?It takes on a tiny bit of water, but no bother because it is fresh water, not that horrible salty stuff you dive in. ? But in the past I found that hose is to stiff, ?I like the rubber bladder idea best. ?I have also used little air cylinders threaded strait onto the motor housing. On Monday, December 5, 2016 8:45 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aft motor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 13:01:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 13:01:22 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi James, I totally agree on the difficulty of filling up. Well the filling is easy, it's getting rid of the last bubbles that is the real issue. For a thruster compensation bladder, the last thing I was testing on Snoopy before her sale was little plastic squeeze bottles. Google "plastic accordion bottle" and you should get some hits. Like this: https://www.grainger.com/product/5FVF7?gclid=CjwKEAiAvZTCBRDvnoOaoa2j3xISJABxPjN9ekm4clPKgKRoIN07DTRepXFPSkcSB1GAMOTILj3jBRoCcMfw_wcB&cm_mmc=PPC:GOOGLEPLAA-_-Adhesives%2C%20Sealants%20and%20Tape-_-Dispensing%20Guns-_-5FVF7&AL!2966!3!50916782397!!!g!104636426757!&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!50916782397!!!g!104636426757!&ef_id=VzemaAAAAJR6JHK7:20161205180023:s Best, Alec On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 7:28 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All > > I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me > thinking. > > I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber > tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. Problem > is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on > the inside. > > So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the > aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its better, but > still awkward. > > I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself. > Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and > filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would be a > rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show filling > and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. > > What does everyone think? > > > ? > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 13:53:20 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 08:53:20 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <312456883.6097486.1480959082423@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <312456883.6097486.1480959082423@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Am I correct in assuming that you only drilled and tapped a hole in the prop end to add oil but there is no bladder for the oil to expand when hot and why did you choose that end to drill instead of the other end or body of the motor? You also mentioned that you get a little fresh water in your motor when you change out the oil every year. Do you think that this is because there is no place for the expanded oil to go when it gets hot so when it does, it pushes out past the prop shaft 0 ring and also allows a little lake water to come the other way when the oil cools down? We have no lakes on the big island so my diving will always be in salt water which will not be good on the insides. Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 7:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, > No bladder, nothing, fill er up and go diving. I drain the oil in the > fall and put new in the spring. It takes on a tiny bit of water, but no > bother because it is fresh water, not that horrible salty stuff you dive > in. But in the past I found that hose is to stiff, I like the rubber > bladder idea best. I have also used little air cylinders threaded strait > onto the motor housing. > > > On Monday, December 5, 2016 8:45 AM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Antoine\Hank. > > Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a furniture > lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for the aft > motor. > > Hank, what do you use for a bladder? > > Thanks > James > > On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > James, > I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works like > a dream. > Hank > > > On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi frank > I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled > compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with > long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. > The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport > platypus drinking bladder > Works well > Regards > Antoine > On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi All > > I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me > thinking. > > I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber > tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. Problem > is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on > the inside. > > So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the > aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its better, but > still awkward. > > I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself. > Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and > filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would be a > rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show filling > and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. > > What does everyone think? > > > ? > ? > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 14:09:41 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 19:09:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <312456883.6097486.1480959082423@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <658971260.6197097.1480964981619@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, you are correct, no bladder. ?It is?likely there is a wee bit of water due to expansion and contraction. ?In salt water, I would drill and tap under the prop for filling and then another port at the opposite end where it is convenient for an expansion\compensation bladder. ?If you use a clear bladder and tube, you can put the motor vertical, prop end up to fill. ?Then manipulate the bladder at the same time to work out any bubbles. ?That is just my thoughts, no best way here, just different.Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 11:53 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Am I correct in assuming that you only drilled and tapped a hole in the prop end to add oil but there is no bladder for the oil to expand when hot and why did you choose that end to drill instead of the other end or body of the motor?You also mentioned that you get a little fresh water in your motor when you change out the oil every year. Do you think that this is because there is no place for the expanded oil to go when it gets hot so when it does, it pushes out past the prop shaft 0 ring and also allows a little lake water to come the other way when the oil cools down? We have no lakes on the big island so my diving will always be in salt water which will not be good on the insides. Rick? On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 7:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,No bladder, nothing, fill er up and go diving.? I drain the oil in the fall and put new in the spring.? It takes on a tiny bit of water, but no bother because it is fresh water, not that horrible salty stuff you dive in. ? But in the past I found that hose is to stiff, ?I like the rubber bladder idea best.? I have also used little air cylinders threaded strait onto the motor housing. On Monday, December 5, 2016 8:45 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aft motor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 14:49:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 12:49:10 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: DxcPcMSvAamNPDxcRcfEFB References: DxcPcMSvAamNPDxcRcfEFB Message-ID: <6f1b9b7d-e6e8-487d-9747-490066dceb07@email.android.com> Getting rid of every last air bubble isn't strictly necessary (although you should attempt to), provided you have enough compensation volume to account for the bubble volume when they shrink under pressure. If you really are about attention to detail, draw a vacuum on the housing before you begin the oil fill. I have never been a fan of compensation at ambient with no bias pressure, but if you use a bladder with any elasticity (such as a hot water bottle or soft blocked tubing like surgical tubing), you can effectively accomplish the bias by overfilling the bladder so it is stretched a bit. Fill at a low point, and vent at a high one. Sean On December 5, 2016 11:01:22 AM MST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi James, > >I totally agree on the difficulty of filling up. Well the filling is >easy, >it's getting rid of the last bubbles that is the real issue. For a >thruster >compensation bladder, the last thing I was testing on Snoopy before her >sale was little plastic squeeze bottles. Google "plastic accordion >bottle" >and you should get some hits. Like this: > >https://www.grainger.com/product/5FVF7?gclid=CjwKEAiAvZTCBRDvnoOaoa2j3xISJABxPjN9ekm4clPKgKRoIN07DTRepXFPSkcSB1GAMOTILj3jBRoCcMfw_wcB&cm_mmc=PPC:GOOGLEPLAA-_-Adhesives%2C%20Sealants%20and%20Tape-_-Dispensing%20Guns-_-5FVF7&AL!2966!3!50916782397!!!g!104636426757!&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!50916782397!!!g!104636426757!&ef_id=VzemaAAAAJR6JHK7:20161205180023:s > > >Best, > >Alec > >On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 7:28 AM, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi All >> >> I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me >> thinking. >> >> I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the >rubber >> tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. >Problem >> is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe >nipple on >> the inside. >> >> So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the >> aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its >better, but >> still awkward. >> >> I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt >myself. >> Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and >> filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would >be a >> rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show >filling >> and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. >> >> What does everyone think? >> >> >> ? >> ? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 16:03:16 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 21:03:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> Some compensating thoughts. On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they were compensating. These come with various means of hose attachment. ?? With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's technicians told me they crimped the hose that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose for compensation. ?? The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal overpressure, but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came up with the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). Cliff is using this. This could be used for air or oil compensation. ?? The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use about a teaspoon a day. Based on that I would have some sort of reservoir. ?? Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you have a bearing in a bore followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing which may be a sealed type or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; so how do you get oil or ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's pressure limit. Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aft motor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 17:04:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 12:04:54 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, I am confused (which doesn't take much) but you talk about doing a test to collapse a PVC hose. I assume that the hose leads from an oil filled vessel to a bladder both being completely filled with a dielectric fluid/oil. So I was thinking that the hose and bladder were to allow for slight expansion as the oil warms up from use so that the factory prop shaft 0 rings would not be extruded outward from excess pressure?. This is based on there being NO air in the vessel, hose or bladder. I didn't realize that there were two 0 rings on the Minn-Kota prop shaft so I do see what you are saying about the outer most 0 ring pushing in with increased pressure. The way I understand it though is if you have ANY air in the system than you are defeating the purpose of having a hose and bladder, correct? Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Some compensating thoughts. > On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they > were compensating. > These come with various means of hose attachment. > With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on > a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly > the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's > technicians told me they crimped the hose > that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose > for compensation. > The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal > overpressure, > but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came > up with > the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). > Cliff is using this. > This could be used for air or oil compensation. > The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use > about a teaspoon a day. Based > on that I would have some sort of reservoir. > Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you > have a bearing in a bore > followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing > which may be a sealed type > or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; > so how do you get oil or > ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's > pressure limit. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > > Hi Antoine\Hank. > > Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a furniture > lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for the aft > motor. > > Hank, what do you use for a bladder? > > Thanks > James > > On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > James, > I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works like > a dream. > Hank > > > On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi frank > I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled > compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with > long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. > The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport > platypus drinking bladder > Works well > Regards > Antoine > On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi All > > I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me > thinking. > > I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber > tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. Problem > is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on > the inside. > > So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the > aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its better, but > still awkward. > > I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself. > Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and > filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would be a > rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show filling > and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. > > What does everyone think? > > > ? > ? > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 17:36:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 15:36:38 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: E1P6ci0eKAOgbE1P8cNRZz References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> E1P6ci0eKAOgbE1P8cNRZz Message-ID: <2daaefff-c2ee-4136-b99c-3ac0a4390b31@email.android.com> Rick - he's talking about cases where there is no bladder implemented, other than a flexible PVC hose which is intended to serve the compensation function when the required volume is low. Counter intuitively, even with a so-called "flexible" hose, the internal volume can be quite rigid against external pressure because the cross section is round and dimensionally stable. If you partially crimp such a hose, you put it out of round and essentially initiate its "collapse", allowing it to serve the compensation function instead of merely resisting the external pressure. If you add a conventional bladder shaped oil reservoir, (e.g. hot water bottle) your plumbing doesn't need to be flexible because the bladder has no strength against external pressure. Sean On December 5, 2016 3:04:54 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Alan, > >I am confused (which doesn't take much) but you talk about doing a test >to >collapse a PVC hose. I assume that the hose leads from an oil filled >vessel >to a bladder both being completely filled with a dielectric fluid/oil. >So I >was thinking that the hose and bladder were to allow for slight >expansion >as the oil warms up from use so that the factory prop shaft 0 rings >would >not be extruded outward from excess pressure?. This is based on there >being >NO air in the vessel, hose or bladder. I didn't realize that there were >two >0 rings on the Minn-Kota prop shaft so I do see what you are saying >about >the outer most 0 ring pushing in with increased pressure. The way I >understand it though is if you have ANY air in the system than you are >defeating the purpose of having a hose and bladder, correct? > >Rick > >On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Some compensating thoughts. >> On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what >they >> were compensating. >> These come with various means of hose attachment. >> With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some >calculations on >> a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly >> the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's >> technicians told me they crimped the hose >> that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the >hose >> for compensation. >> The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi >internal >> overpressure, >> but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh >came >> up with >> the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker >PR364). >> Cliff is using this. >> This could be used for air or oil compensation. >> The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can >use >> about a teaspoon a day. Based >> on that I would have some sort of reservoir. >> Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If >you >> have a bearing in a bore >> followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the >bearing >> which may be a sealed type >> or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 >seals; >> so how do you get oil or >> ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's >> pressure limit. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification >> >> Hi Antoine\Hank. >> >> Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a >furniture >> lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for the >aft >> motor. >> >> Hank, what do you use for a bladder? >> >> Thanks >> James >> >> On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> James, >> I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works >like >> a dream. >> Hank >> >> >> On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> >> Hi frank >> I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled >> compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge >with >> long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. >> The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport >> platypus drinking bladder >> Works well >> Regards >> Antoine >> On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Hi All >> >> I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me >> thinking. >> >> I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the >rubber >> tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. >Problem >> is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe >nipple on >> the inside. >> >> So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the >> aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its >better, but >> still awkward. >> >> I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt >myself. >> Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and >> filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would >be a >> rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show >filling >> and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. >> >> What does everyone think? >> >> >> ? >> ? >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 17:58:00 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 15:58:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: E1P6ci0eKAOgbE1P8cNRZz References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> E1P6ci0eKAOgbE1P8cNRZz Message-ID: <96d9ab7a-de69-400e-bbce-02379b02054c@email.android.com> The things that can cause a change in the required compensation volume are: 1) Any existing gas bubbles shrinking or expanding with pressure change 2) Volume change of the housing, of the oil, or of the motor itself (windings, shaft, bearings, etc.) due to change in temperature of any of these 3) Pumping action of the shaft seals due to the geometry at the seal lip, which can drive small amounts of fluid in or out of the system in proportion to shaft speed, and 4) other leaks. In short, going entirely uncompensated is not wise (unless your shaft seals have been proven to withstand a pressure differential equal to the pressure at the operating depth), because any entrained air which shrinks, temperature change, or seal lip pumping will generate a delta-P across the seals, and if it is negative, any leakage across the seal will admit sea (or lake, etc.) water to the enclosure. Adding non biased compensation reduces the delta-P across the seal to zero, but that doesn't mean it won't leak because the dynamic seal lip pumping can still be a problem. Adding bias to the compensation (air pressure, spring pressure, preloaded elastic bladder, etc.) ensures that the delta-P is positive, so that any leak that does occur will be outward rather than inward, and furthermore, gives you a condition monitoring tool in the form of the bladder volume, since you can tell if the reservoir volume has been consumed that you have had a leak. Sean On December 5, 2016 3:04:54 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Alan, > >I am confused (which doesn't take much) but you talk about doing a test >to >collapse a PVC hose. I assume that the hose leads from an oil filled >vessel >to a bladder both being completely filled with a dielectric fluid/oil. >So I >was thinking that the hose and bladder were to allow for slight >expansion >as the oil warms up from use so that the factory prop shaft 0 rings >would >not be extruded outward from excess pressure?. This is based on there >being >NO air in the vessel, hose or bladder. I didn't realize that there were >two >0 rings on the Minn-Kota prop shaft so I do see what you are saying >about >the outer most 0 ring pushing in with increased pressure. The way I >understand it though is if you have ANY air in the system than you are >defeating the purpose of having a hose and bladder, correct? > >Rick > >On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Some compensating thoughts. >> On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what >they >> were compensating. >> These come with various means of hose attachment. >> With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some >calculations on >> a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly >> the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's >> technicians told me they crimped the hose >> that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the >hose >> for compensation. >> The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi >internal >> overpressure, >> but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh >came >> up with >> the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker >PR364). >> Cliff is using this. >> This could be used for air or oil compensation. >> The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can >use >> about a teaspoon a day. Based >> on that I would have some sort of reservoir. >> Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If >you >> have a bearing in a bore >> followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the >bearing >> which may be a sealed type >> or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 >seals; >> so how do you get oil or >> ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's >> pressure limit. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification >> >> Hi Antoine\Hank. >> >> Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a >furniture >> lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for the >aft >> motor. >> >> Hank, what do you use for a bladder? >> >> Thanks >> James >> >> On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> James, >> I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works >like >> a dream. >> Hank >> >> >> On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> >> Hi frank >> I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled >> compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge >with >> long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. >> The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport >> platypus drinking bladder >> Works well >> Regards >> Antoine >> On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Hi All >> >> I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me >> thinking. >> >> I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the >rubber >> tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. >Problem >> is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe >nipple on >> the inside. >> >> So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the >> aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its >better, but >> still awkward. >> >> I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt >myself. >> Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and >> filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would >be a >> rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show >filling >> and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. >> >> What does everyone think? >> >> >> ? >> ? >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 17:58:49 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 22:58:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification References: <1655004399.95473.1480978729039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1655004399.95473.1480978729039@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, one method Psubbers were using to compensate thrusters was to have two nipples in the thruster with a piece of PVC tube leaving one, wrapping around the thruster & joining the other. The idea being that the oil filled PVC tube compressed to equalize the thruster. It's easy to squeeze the tube with your fingers, but when you have water pressure squeezing evenly, it's collapse pressure is quite high. Also lights are compensated like this with the wiring running through oil filled PVC tube from the back of the light fitting to the through hull. Again, the tube needs to be crimped to initiate it's collapse. ?? With the addition of a bladder there is no need to worry about this, as the bladder collapses easily. If you semi fill the bladder then it can take any expansion. As long as there is enough oil in the bladder to cover the compression of any air at the depth you are going, then you could have quite a bit of air still left in your thruster. But the ideal is to have as little as possible. ?? I know Cliff mentioned the problem of the dual seals when he was doing his Minn Kotta modifications. I think he built a new end section to the motor, but aren't sure. ?? I have heard that the Minn Kotta seals are rated to 15-30ft but have been tested to over 100ft in some cases. I have only looked at them from an obscure parts diagram. There may be such a small void between them that it would be a non issue if the seaward seal fails. Sometimes in thrusters with dual seal arrangements the seaward seal is regarded as sacrificial because it sees all the grit etc. ?? Today I am emailing manufacturers to try & find a cheaper version of the Parker PR364 relieving regulator that Cliff is using for compensation. Cheers Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 21:01:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 19:01:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification In-Reply-To: E2J2cUSXvaC0PE2J3cnGZw References: <1655004399.95473.1480978729039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> E2J2cUSXvaC0PE2J3cnGZw Message-ID: <66c5b811-2409-42cf-9a09-e24329b10577@email.android.com> Do the Minn Kota motors have a dual seal arrangement that would permit you to run a compensation line to the void between the two seals? I am not familiar with their design. In designing mission critical sealing arrangements, I have always stuck to the rule of thumb of using any single seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both simultaneously. Thus an ideal arrangement with dual seals would be to run bias compensated oil in the housing, unbiased compensated oil in the volume between the seals, and then the seawater outside. This way, leakage across the inner seal is immaterial because the fluid is the same, and leakage across the outer seal is unlikely because there is no delta-P. Sean On December 5, 2016 3:58:49 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Rick, >one method Psubbers were using to compensate thrusters was to have two >nipples >in the thruster with a piece of PVC tube leaving one, wrapping around >the thruster >& joining the other. The idea being that the oil filled PVC tube >compressed to equalize the thruster. >It's easy to squeeze the tube with your fingers, but when you have >water pressure >squeezing evenly, it's collapse pressure is quite high. Also lights are >compensated like >this with the wiring running through oil filled PVC tube from the back >of the light fitting >to the through hull. Again, the tube needs to be crimped to initiate >it's collapse. >?? With the addition of a bladder there is no need to worry about this, >as the bladder collapses >easily. If you semi fill the bladder then it can take any expansion. As >long as there is enough >oil in the bladder to cover the compression of any air at the depth you >are going, then >you could have quite a bit of air still left in your thruster. But the >ideal is to have >as little as possible. >?? I know Cliff mentioned the problem of the dual seals when he was >doing his Minn Kotta >modifications. I think he built a new end section to the motor, but >aren't sure. >?? I have heard that the Minn Kotta seals are rated to 15-30ft but have >been tested >to over 100ft in some cases. I have only looked at them from an obscure >parts diagram. >There may be such a small void between them that it would be a non >issue if the seaward seal >fails. Sometimes in thrusters with dual seal arrangements the seaward >seal is regarded >as sacrificial because it sees all the grit etc. >?? Today I am emailing manufacturers to try & find a cheaper version of >the Parker PR364 >relieving regulator that Cliff is using for compensation. >Cheers Alan > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 5 23:06:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 22:06:33 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification In-Reply-To: <66c5b811-2409-42cf-9a09-e24329b10577@email.android.com> References: <1655004399.95473.1480978729039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <66c5b811-2409-42cf-9a09-e24329b10577@email.android.com> Message-ID: I can give you my experience with the seals on the Minn-Kota 101 I have on the R300. Much of this was covered in my Psub presenation at Watkins Glenn earlier this year. The OTS Minn-Kota lower unit (MK part number 2886289) consist of a center section that contains the permanent stator magnets, the plain end housing assembly (bow) that contains two radial roller bearing that support the shaft and armature assembly, a brush end assembly that holds the brushes, a bronze flange bearing and two lip seals with a carboard spacer between them each oriented to expect higher external pressure than internal. There is a static o-ring seal between the center magnet section and the plain end housing assembly. On the brush end assembly, the dual lip seals are design for approximately 10 feet submergence but have been known to work to a depth of about 30 ft. To modify this MK-101 for the four thrusters on my boat, I reverse engineered the brush end assembly so that I could machine a replacement brush end assembly that beefed up the part so that I could screw three 316-SS supports to hold a nylon MARLIN Wageningen nozzle 37. This modify part was made of 6061-T6 and hard anodized. This new part uses the same two lip seals in the original part design and the same static o-ring seal beween the brush end addemlby and the center section. In the nozzle that is welded to the center section that the two 10AWG conductions exit from , I inserted a 316-SS adapter that would accept a Subconn BHB2M bulkhead connector and a Swagelok 1/4" NPT to 1/4" tube fitting. I use a single pressure reducing/ releaving regulator that Hugh Fulton specified for his Q-Sub for air pressure compensation of all four thrusters. The regultor is adjustable and I have mine set to hold a pressure of 4 psi over ambient water pressure. For both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version, there is no barrier fluid other than air beween the two lip seals and their is no compensation line. As Alan mensioned in an earier post, it is likely that this arrangement would cause the the outer lip seal to collapse againsit the cardboard spacer beween the two lip seals because the initial pressure beween the two seal is initially 1 atm. On Jan 24th this year I took my boat to Lake Amistad and did a manned dive to 155 ft. I had no issues with the thrusters either before or after the deep dive. They worked great. When I was ascending from the deep dive I did note that the pressure regulator was releasing air from the thrusters. When I disassembled the thrusters after the dive, they were all dry. As to Sean's idea of using a positive bias pressure inside the thruster and filling the space beween the two seals with oil that has ambient pressure via a compensation line, I think this could be done for both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version. Might be tricky to machine the hole beween the two lip seals but I think it might be possible. Not sure how you would keep the oil place as there is no room for a bladder. Might be able to use some kind of plug that would transmit ambient water pressure to area between the seals. Before I take my boat out again, I am going to call the *Parker Hannifin* guys and get their take how to modify this seal arrangement. In the spirit of KISS, I am leaning towards just removing the outbound lip seal and relying on the pressure compensation system and a single lip seal. We don't put a lot of hours on this seal so duty cycle is light. A single lip seal with pressure compensation might be all that is required. Maybe we could get Jon to post the PP file on the MK 101 thruster project to the PSubs web site. Cliff Late year I reverse enginnered On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Do the Minn Kota motors have a dual seal arrangement that would permit you > to run a compensation line to the void between the two seals? I am not > familiar with their design. In designing mission critical sealing > arrangements, I have always stuck to the rule of thumb of using any single > seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both simultaneously. > Thus an ideal arrangement with dual seals would be to run bias compensated > oil in the housing, unbiased compensated oil in the volume between the > seals, and then the seawater outside. This way, leakage across the inner > seal is immaterial because the fluid is the same, and leakage across the > outer seal is unlikely because there is no delta-P. > > Sean > > > On December 5, 2016 3:58:49 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Rick, >> one method Psubbers were using to compensate thrusters was to have two >> nipples >> in the thruster with a piece of PVC tube leaving one, wrapping around the >> thruster >> & joining the other. The idea being that the oil filled PVC tube >> compressed to equalize the thruster. >> It's easy to squeeze the tube with your fingers, but when you have water >> pressure >> squeezing evenly, it's collapse pressure is quite high. Also lights are >> compensated like >> this with the wiring running through oil filled PVC tu! be from the back >> of the light fitting >> to the through hull. Again, the tube needs to be crimped to initiate it's >> collapse. >> With the addition of a bladder there is no need to worry about this, >> as the bladder collapses >> easily. If you semi fill the bladder then it can take any expansion. As >> long as there is enough >> oil in the bladder to cover the compression of any air at the depth you >> are going, then >> you could have quite a bit of air still left in your thruster. But the >> ideal is to have >> as little as possible. >> I know Cliff mentioned the problem of the dual seals when he was doing >> his Minn Kotta >> modifications. I think he built a new end section to the motor, but >> aren't sure. >> I have heard that the Minn Kotta seals are rated to 15-30ft but have >> been tested >> to over 100ft in some cases. I have only looked at them from an obscure >> parts diagram. >> There may be such a small void between them that it would be a non issue >> if the seaward seal >> fails. Sometimes in thrusters with dual seal arrangements the seaward >> seal is regarded >> as sacrificial because it sees all the grit etc. >> Today I am emailing manufacturers to try & find a cheaper version of >> the Parker PR364 >> relieving regulator that Cliff is using for compensation. >> Cheers Alan >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 6 02:02:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 07:02:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification In-Reply-To: References: <1655004399.95473.1480978729039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <66c5b811-2409-42cf-9a09-e24329b10577@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1511951832.350105.1481007746755@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff, thanks for wading in. Can you fit a mechanical seal in the Minn kotta end housing? ?? I have ended up choosing a mechanical seal for my brushless thruster.? (V3 0100.20.N.C.) I firstly consulted with an N.Z. rep who recommended this bellows type seal; then after buying it, ended up sending my drawings & description of operation to Vulcan the manufacturer, who independently recommended the same seal. ?? I have a gap between my bearing & seal that doesn't allow for free flow of oil & are going to drill a hole at an angle in to this cavity from the middle section of my thruster housing. ?? Glad to hear there was air coming out of the relieving valve on the regulator; it must work! I am finalizing a purchase of some similar regulators for my thrusters. Alan From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification I can give you my experience with the seals on the Minn-Kota 101 I have on the R300.? Much of this was covered in my Psub presenation at Watkins Glenn earlier this year. The OTS Minn-Kota lower unit (MK part number 2886289)?consist of a center section that contains the permanent stator magnets, the plain end housing assembly (bow) that contains two radial roller bearing that support the shaft and armature assembly, a brush end assembly that holds the brushes, a bronze flange bearing and two lip seals with a carboard spacer between them each oriented to expect higher external pressure than internal.? There is a static o-ring seal between the center magnet section and the plain end housing assembly.? On the brush end assembly, the dual lip seals are design for approximately 10 feet submergence but have been known to work to a depth of about 30 ft.? To modify this MK-101 for the four thrusters on my boat, I reverse engineered the brush end assembly so that I could machine a replacement? brush end assembly that beefed up the part so that I could screw three 316-SS supports to hold a nylon MARLIN Wageningen nozzle 37.? This modify part was made of 6061-T6 and hard anodized.? This new part uses the same two lip seals in the original part design and the same static o-ring seal beween the brush end addemlby and the center section.??In the nozzle?that is welded to the center section that the two 10AWG conductions exit from , I inserted a 316-SS adapter that would accept a Subconn BHB2M bulkhead connector and a Swagelok 1/4" NPT to 1/4" tube fitting.? I use a single pressure reducing/ releaving regulator that Hugh Fulton specified for his Q-Sub for air pressure compensation of all four thrusters.? The regultor is adjustable and I have mine set to hold a pressure of 4 psi over ambient water pressure.? For both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version, there is no barrier fluid other than air beween the two lip seals and their is no compensation line.? As Alan mensioned in an earier post, it is likely that this arrangement would cause the the outer lip seal to collapse againsit the cardboard spacer beween the two lip seals because the initial pressure beween the two seal is initially 1 atm.?? On Jan 24th this year I took my boat to Lake Amistad and did a manned dive to 155 ft.?I had no issues with the thrusters either before or after the deep dive. They worked great.?When I was ascending from the deep dive I did note that the pressure regulator was releasing air from the thrusters. When I disassembled the thrusters after the dive, they were all dry. As to Sean's idea of using a positive bias pressure inside the thruster and filling the space beween the two seals with oil that has ambient pressure via a compensation line, I think this could be done for both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version.? Might be tricky to machine the hole beween the two lip seals but I think it might be possible.? Not sure how you would keep the oil place as there is no room for a bladder.?Might be able to use some kind of plug that would transmit ambient water pressure to area between the seals. Before I take my boat out again, I am going to call the? Parker Hannifin guys and get their take how to modify this seal arrangement.?In the spirit of KISS, ?I am leaning towards just removing the outbound lip seal and relying on the pressure compensation system and a single lip seal.?We don't put a lot of hours on this seal so duty cycle is light.? A single lip seal with pressure compensation might be all that is required. Maybe we could get Jon to post the PP file on the MK 101 thruster project to the PSubs web site. Cliff ? Late year I reverse enginnered On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Do the Minn Kota motors have a dual seal arrangement that would permit you to run a compensation line to the void between the two seals?? I am not familiar with their design. In designing mission critical sealing arrangements, I have always stuck to the rule of thumb of using any single seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both simultaneously.? Thus an ideal arrangement with dual seals would be to run bias compensated oil in the housing, unbiased compensated oil in the volume between the seals, and then the seawater outside. This way, leakage across the inner seal is immaterial because the fluid is the same, and leakage across the outer seal is unlikely because there is no delta-P.Sean On December 5, 2016 3:58:49 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, one method Psubbers were using to compensate thrusters was to have two nipples in the thruster with a piece of PVC tube leaving one, wrapping around the thruster & joining the other. The idea being that the oil filled PVC tube compressed to equalize the thruster. It's easy to squeeze the tube with your fingers, but when you have water pressure squeezing evenly, it's collapse pressure is quite high. Also lights are compensated like this with the wiring running through oil filled PVC tu! be fromthe back of the light fitting to the through hull. Again, the tube needs to be crimped to initiate it's collapse. ?? With the addition of a bladder there is no need to worry about this, as the bladder collapses easily. If you semi fill the bladder then it can take any expansion. As long as there is enough oil in the bladder to cover the compression of any air at the depth you are going, then you could have quite a bit of air still left in your thruster. But the ideal is to have as little as possible. ?? I know Cliff mentioned the problem of the dual seals when he was doing his Minn Kotta modifications. I think he built a new end section to the motor, but aren't sure. ?? I have heard that the Minn Kotta seals are rated to 15-30ft but have been tested to over 100ft in some cases. I have only looked at them from an obscure parts diagram. There may be such a small void between them that it would be a non issue if the seaward seal fails. Sometimes in thrusters with dual seal arrangements the seaward seal is regarded as sacrificial because it sees all the grit etc. ?? Today I am emailing manufacturers to try & find a cheaper version of the Parker PR364 relieving regulator that Cliff is using for compensation. Cheers Alan Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 6 08:11:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 06:11:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification In-Reply-To: E72ecX0rLaC0PE72gcp1zN References: <1655004399.95473.1480978729039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <66c5b811-2409-42cf-9a09-e24329b10577@email.android.com> E72ecX0rLaC0PE72gcp1zN Message-ID: <1200316e-b748-4662-88aa-39b2dc1523ce@email.android.com> One caveat to the embodiment that I described: As seals are generally energized by pressure, when you employ a seal to separate two fluids at the same pressure, you must pay attention to the seal contact in the absence of that pressure differential - possibly opting for a spring energised seal if there otherwise isn't sufficient force on the seal lip. Sean On December 5, 2016 9:06:33 PM MST, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I can give you my experience with the seals on the Minn-Kota 101 I have >on >the R300. Much of this was covered in my Psub presenation at Watkins >Glenn >earlier this year. > >The OTS Minn-Kota lower unit (MK part number 2886289) consist of a >center >section that contains the permanent stator magnets, the plain end >housing >assembly (bow) that contains two radial roller bearing that support the >shaft and armature assembly, a brush end assembly that holds the >brushes, a >bronze flange bearing and two lip seals with a carboard spacer between >them >each oriented to expect higher external pressure than internal. There >is a >static o-ring seal between the center magnet section and the plain end >housing assembly. On the brush end assembly, the dual lip seals are >design >for approximately 10 feet submergence but have been known to work to a >depth of about 30 ft. To modify this MK-101 for the four thrusters on >my >boat, I reverse engineered the brush end assembly so that I could >machine a >replacement brush end assembly that beefed up the part so that I could >screw three 316-SS supports to hold a nylon MARLIN Wageningen nozzle >37. >This modify part was made of 6061-T6 and hard anodized. This new part >uses >the same two lip seals in the original part design and the same static >o-ring seal beween the brush end addemlby and the center section. In >the >nozzle that is welded to the center section that the two 10AWG >conductions >exit from , I inserted a 316-SS adapter that would accept a Subconn >BHB2M >bulkhead connector and a Swagelok 1/4" NPT to 1/4" tube fitting. I use >a >single pressure reducing/ releaving regulator that Hugh Fulton >specified >for his Q-Sub for air pressure compensation of all four thrusters. The >regultor is adjustable and I have mine set to hold a pressure of 4 psi >over >ambient water pressure. > >For both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified >version, >there is no barrier fluid other than air beween the two lip seals and >their >is no compensation line. As Alan mensioned in an earier post, it is >likely >that this arrangement would cause the the outer lip seal to collapse >againsit the cardboard spacer beween the two lip seals because the >initial >pressure beween the two seal is initially 1 atm. > >On Jan 24th this year I took my boat to Lake Amistad and did a manned >dive >to 155 ft. I had no issues with the thrusters either before or after >the >deep dive. They worked great. When I was ascending from the deep dive I >did >note that the pressure regulator was releasing air from the thrusters. >When >I disassembled the thrusters after the dive, they were all dry. > >As to Sean's idea of using a positive bias pressure inside the thruster >and >filling the space beween the two seals with oil that has ambient >pressure >via a compensation line, I think this could be done for both the >original >MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version. Might be tricky to >machine the hole beween the two lip seals but I think it might be >possible. Not sure how you would keep the oil place as there is no >room >for a bladder. Might be able to use some kind of plug that would >transmit >ambient water pressure to area between the seals. > >Before I take my boat out again, I am going to call the *Parker >Hannifin* >guys and get their take how to modify this seal arrangement. In the >spirit >of KISS, I am leaning towards just removing the outbound lip seal and >relying on the pressure compensation system and a single lip seal. We >don't >put a lot of hours on this seal so duty cycle is light. A single lip >seal >with pressure compensation might be all that is required. > >Maybe we could get Jon to post the PP file on the MK 101 thruster >project >to the PSubs web site. > >Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Late year I reverse enginnered > >On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> Do the Minn Kota motors have a dual seal arrangement that would >permit you >> to run a compensation line to the void between the two seals? I am >not >> familiar with their design. In designing mission critical sealing >> arrangements, I have always stuck to the rule of thumb of using any >single >> seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both >simultaneously. >> Thus an ideal arrangement with dual seals would be to run bias >compensated >> oil in the housing, unbiased compensated oil in the volume between >the >> seals, and then the seawater outside. This way, leakage across the >inner >> seal is immaterial because the fluid is the same, and leakage across >the >> outer seal is unlikely because there is no delta-P. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On December 5, 2016 3:58:49 PM MST, Alan James via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Rick, >>> one method Psubbers were using to compensate thrusters was to have >two >>> nipples >>> in the thruster with a piece of PVC tube leaving one, wrapping >around the >>> thruster >>> & joining the other. The idea being that the oil filled PVC tube >>> compressed to equalize the thruster. >>> It's easy to squeeze the tube with your fingers, but when you have >water >>> pressure >>> squeezing evenly, it's collapse pressure is quite high. Also lights >are >>> compensated like >>> this with the wiring running through oil filled PVC tu! be from the >back >>> of the light fitting >>> to the through hull. Again, the tube needs to be crimped to initiate >it's >>> collapse. >>> With the addition of a bladder there is no need to worry about >this, >>> as the bladder collapses >>> easily. If you semi fill the bladder then it can take any expansion. >As >>> long as there is enough >>> oil in the bladder to cover the compression of any air at the depth >you >>> are going, then >>> you could have quite a bit of air still left in your thruster. But >the >>> ideal is to have >>> as little as possible. >>> I know Cliff mentioned the problem of the dual seals when he was >doing >>> his Minn Kotta >>> modifications. I think he built a new end section to the motor, but >>> aren't sure. >>> I have heard that the Minn Kotta seals are rated to 15-30ft but >have >>> been tested >>> to over 100ft in some cases. I have only looked at them from an >obscure >>> parts diagram. >>> There may be such a small void between them that it would be a non >issue >>> if the seaward seal >>> fails. Sometimes in thrusters with dual seal arrangements the >seaward >>> seal is regarded >>> as sacrificial because it sees all the grit etc. >>> Today I am emailing manufacturers to try & find a cheaper version >of >>> the Parker PR364 >>> relieving regulator that Cliff is using for compensation. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 6 09:23:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 08:23:56 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification In-Reply-To: <1200316e-b748-4662-88aa-39b2dc1523ce@email.android.com> References: <1655004399.95473.1480978729039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <66c5b811-2409-42cf-9a09-e24329b10577@email.android.com> <1200316e-b748-4662-88aa-39b2dc1523ce@email.android.com> Message-ID: Thanks Sean. The dual lip seals on the MK-101s are spring energized to handle this zero differential pressure issue. Cliff On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 7:11 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > One caveat to the embodiment that I described: As seals are generally > energized by pressure, when you employ a seal to separate two fluids at the > same pressure, you must pay attention to the seal contact in the absence of > that pressure differential - possibly opting for a spring energised seal if > there otherwise isn't sufficient force on the seal lip. > > Sean > > > On December 5, 2016 9:06:33 PM MST, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> I can give you my experience with the seals on the Minn-Kota 101 I have >> on the R300. Much of this was covered in my Psub presenation at Watkins >> Glenn earlier this year. >> >> The OTS Minn-Kota lower unit (MK part number 2886289) consist of a center >> section that contains the permanent stator magnets, the plain end housing >> assembly (bow) that contains two radial roller bearing that support the >> shaft and armature assembly, a brush end assembly that holds the brushes, a >> bronze flange bearing and two lip seals with a carboard spacer between them >> each oriented to expect higher external pressure than internal. There is a >> static o-ring seal between the center magnet section and the plain end >> housing assembly. On the brush end assembly, the dual lip seals are design >> for approximately 10 feet submergence but have been known to work to a >> depth of about 30 ft. To modify this MK-101 for the four thrusters on my >> boat, I reverse engineered! the brush end assembly so that I could machine >> a replacement brush end assembly that beefed up the part so that I could >> screw three 316-SS supports to hold a nylon MARLIN Wageningen nozzle 37. >> This modify part was made of 6061-T6 and hard anodized. This new part uses >> the same two lip seals in the original part design and the same static >> o-ring seal beween the brush end addemlby and the center section. In the >> nozzle that is welded to the center section that the two 10AWG conductions >> exit from , I inserted a 316-SS adapter that would accept a Subconn BHB2M >> bulkhead connector and a Swagelok 1/4" NPT to 1/4" tube fitting. I use a >> single pressure reducing/ releaving regulator that Hugh Fulton specified >> for his Q-Sub for air pressure compensation of all four thrusters. The >> regultor is adjustable and I have mine set to hold a pressure of 4 psi over >> ambient water pressure. >> >> For both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modifi! ed >> version, there is no barrier fluid other than air beween the two lip seals >> and their is no compensation line. As Alan mensioned in an earier post, it >> is likely that this arrangement would cause the the outer lip seal to >> collapse againsit the cardboard spacer beween the two lip seals because the >> initial pressure beween the two seal is initially 1 atm. >> >> On Jan 24th this year I took my boat to Lake Amistad and did a manned >> dive to 155 ft. I had no issues with the thrusters either before or after >> the deep dive. They worked great. When I was ascending from the deep dive I >> did note that the pressure regulator was releasing air from the thrusters. >> When I disassembled the thrusters after the dive, they were all dry. >> >> As to Sean's idea of using a positive bias pressure inside the thruster >> and filling the space beween the two seals with oil that has ambient >> pressure via a compensation line, I think this could be done fo! r both the >> original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version. Might be >> tricky to machine the hole beween the two lip seals but I think it might be >> possible. Not sure how you would keep the oil place as there is no room >> for a bladder. Might be able to use some kind of plug that would transmit >> ambient water pressure to area between the seals. >> >> Before I take my boat out again, I am going to call the *Parker >> Hannifin* guys and get their take how to modify this seal >> arrangement. In the spirit of KISS, I am leaning towards just removing the >> outbound lip seal and relying on the pressure compensation system and a >> single lip seal. We don't put a lot of hours on this seal so duty cycle is >> light. A single lip seal with pressure compensation might be all that is >> required. >> >> Maybe we c! ould get Jon to post the PP file on the MK 101 thruster >> project to the PSubs web site. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Late year I reverse enginnered >> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Do the Minn Kota motors have a dual seal arrangement that would permit >>> you to run a compensation line to the void between the two seals? ! I am >>> not familiar with their design. In designing mission critical sealing >>> arrangements, I have always stuck to the rule of thumb of using any single >>> seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both simultaneously. >>> Thus an ideal arrangement with dual seals would be to run bias compensated >>> oil in the housing, unbiased compensated oil in the volume between the >>> seals, and then the seawater outside. This way, leakage across the inner >>> seal is immaterial because the fluid is the same, and leakage across the >>> outer seal is unlikely because there is no delta-P. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On December 5, 2016 3:58:49 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Rick, >>>> one method Psubbers were using to compensate thrusters was to have two >>>> nipples >>>> in the thruster with a piece of PVC tube leaving one, wrapping around >>>> the thruster >>>> & joining the other. The idea being that the oil filled PVC tube >>>> compressed to equalize the thruster. >>>> It's easy to squeeze the tube with your fingers, but when you have >>>> water pressure >>>> squeezing evenly, it's collapse pressure! is quite high. Also lights >>>> are compensated like >>>> this with the wiring running through oil filled PVC tu! be from the >>>> back of the light fitting >>>> to the through hull. Again, the tube needs to be crimped to initiate >>>> it's collapse. >>>> With the addition of a bladder there is no need to worry about this, >>>> as the bladder collapses >>>> easily. If you semi fill the bladder then it can take any expansion. As >>>> long as there is enough >>>> oil in the bladder to cover the compression of any air at the depth you >>>> are going, then >>>> you could have quite a bit of air still left in your thruster. But the >>>> ideal is to have >>>> as little as possible. >>>> I know Cliff mentioned the problem of the dual seals when he was >>>> doing his Minn Kotta >>>> modifications. I think he built a new end section to the motor, but >>>> aren't sure. >>>> I have heard that the Minn Kotta seals are rated to 15-30ft but have >>>> been tested >>>> to over 100ft in some cases. I have only looked at them from an obscure >>>> parts diagram. >>>> There may be such a small void between them that it would be a non >>>> issue if the seaward seal >>>> fails. Sometimes in thrusters with dual seal arrangements the seaward >>>> seal is regarded >>>> as sacrificial because it sees all the grit! etc. >>>> Today I am emailing manufacturers to try & find a cheaper version of >>>> the Parker PR364 >>>> relieving regulator that Cliff is using for compensation. >>>> Cheers Alan >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> ____________________________________________! ___ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 6 09:28:03 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 08:28:03 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification In-Reply-To: <1511951832.350105.1481007746755@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1655004399.95473.1480978729039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <66c5b811-2409-42cf-9a09-e24329b10577@email.android.com> <1511951832.350105.1481007746755@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, I am having trouble pulling up the Vulcan seal off the V3 0100.20.N.C. part number. Can you send a link so I can have a look at this single mechanical seal? I have quite a bit of room for the seal so if it is not to big, it might work. Cliff On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:02 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > thanks for wading in. > Can you fit a mechanical seal in the Minn kotta end housing? > I have ended up choosing a mechanical seal for my brushless thruster. > (V3 0100.20.N.C.) > I firstly consulted with an N.Z. rep who recommended this bellows type > seal; then after > buying it, ended up sending my drawings & description of operation to > Vulcan the manufacturer, > who independently recommended the same seal. > I have a gap between my bearing & seal that doesn't allow for free flow > of oil > & are going to drill a hole at an angle in to this cavity from the middle > section > of my thruster housing. > Glad to hear there was air coming out of the relieving valve on the > regulator; > it must work! I am finalizing a purchase of some similar regulators for my > thrusters. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2016 5:06 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification > > I can give you my experience with the seals on the Minn-Kota 101 I have on > the R300. Much of this was covered in my Psub presenation at Watkins Glenn > earlier this year. > > The OTS Minn-Kota lower unit (MK part number 2886289) consist of a center > section that contains the permanent stator magnets, the plain end housing > assembly (bow) that contains two radial roller bearing that support the > shaft and armature assembly, a brush end assembly that holds the brushes, a > bronze flange bearing and two lip seals with a carboard spacer between them > each oriented to expect higher external pressure than internal. There is a > static o-ring seal between the center magnet section and the plain end > housing assembly. On the brush end assembly, the dual lip seals are design > for approximately 10 feet submergence but have been known to work to a > depth of about 30 ft. To modify this MK-101 for the four thrusters on my > boat, I reverse engineered the brush end assembly so that I could machine a > replacement brush end assembly that beefed up the part so that I could > screw three 316-SS supports to hold a nylon MARLIN Wageningen nozzle 37. > This modify part was made of 6061-T6 and hard anodized. This new part uses > the same two lip seals in the original part design and the same static > o-ring seal beween the brush end addemlby and the center section. In the > nozzle that is welded to the center section that the two 10AWG conductions > exit from , I inserted a 316-SS adapter that would accept a Subconn BHB2M > bulkhead connector and a Swagelok 1/4" NPT to 1/4" tube fitting. I use a > single pressure reducing/ releaving regulator that Hugh Fulton specified > for his Q-Sub for air pressure compensation of all four thrusters. The > regultor is adjustable and I have mine set to hold a pressure of 4 psi over > ambient water pressure. > > For both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version, > there is no barrier fluid other than air beween the two lip seals and their > is no compensation line. As Alan mensioned in an earier post, it is likely > that this arrangement would cause the the outer lip seal to collapse > againsit the cardboard spacer beween the two lip seals because the initial > pressure beween the two seal is initially 1 atm. > > On Jan 24th this year I took my boat to Lake Amistad and did a manned dive > to 155 ft. I had no issues with the thrusters either before or after the > deep dive. They worked great. When I was ascending from the deep dive I did > note that the pressure regulator was releasing air from the thrusters. When > I disassembled the thrusters after the dive, they were all dry. > > As to Sean's idea of using a positive bias pressure inside the thruster > and filling the space beween the two seals with oil that has ambient > pressure via a compensation line, I think this could be done for both the > original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version. Might be > tricky to machine the hole beween the two lip seals but I think it might be > possible. Not sure how you would keep the oil place as there is no room > for a bladder. Might be able to use some kind of plug that would transmit > ambient water pressure to area between the seals. > > Before I take my boat out again, I am going to call the *Parker Hannifin* > guys and get their take how to modify this seal arrangement. In the spirit > of KISS, I am leaning towards just removing the outbound lip seal and > relying on the pressure compensation system and a single lip seal. We don't > put a lot of hours on this seal so duty cycle is light. A single lip seal > with pressure compensation might be all that is required. > > Maybe we could get Jon to post the PP file on the MK 101 thruster project > to the PSubs web site. > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Late year I reverse enginnered > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Do the Minn Kota motors have a dual seal arrangement that would permit you > to run a compensation line to the void between the two seals? I am not > familiar with their design. In designing mission critical sealing > arrangements, I have always stuck to the rule of thumb of using any single > seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both simultaneously. > Thus an ideal arrangement with dual seals would be to run bias compensated > oil in the housing, unbiased compensated oil in the volume between the > seals, and then the seawater outside. This way, leakage across the inner > seal is immaterial because the fluid is the same, and leakage across the > outer seal is unlikely because there is no delta-P. > Sean > > > On December 5, 2016 3:58:49 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Rick, > one method Psubbers were using to compensate thrusters was to have two > nipples > in the thruster with a piece of PVC tube leaving one, wrapping around the > thruster > & joining the other. The idea being that the oil filled PVC tube > compressed to equalize the thruster. > It's easy to squeeze the tube with your fingers, but when you have water > pressure > squeezing evenly, it's collapse pressure is quite high. Also lights are > compensated like > this with the wiring running through oil filled PVC tu! be from the back > of the light fitting > to the through hull. Again, the tube needs to be crimped to initiate it's > collapse. > With the addition of a bladder there is no need to worry about this, as > the bladder collapses > easily. If you semi fill the bladder then it can take any expansion. As > long as there is enough > oil in the bladder to cover the compression of any air at the depth you > are going, then > you could have quite a bit of air still left in your thruster. But the > ideal is to have > as little as possible. > I know Cliff mentioned the problem of the dual seals when he was doing > his Minn Kotta > modifications. I think he built a new end section to the motor, but aren't > sure. > I have heard that the Minn Kotta seals are rated to 15-30ft but have > been tested > to over 100ft in some cases. I have only looked at them from an obscure > parts diagram. > There may be such a small void between them that it would be a non issue > if the seaward seal > fails. Sometimes in thrusters with dual seal arrangements the seaward seal > is regarded > as sacrificial because it sees all the grit etc. > Today I am emailing manufacturers to try & find a cheaper version of > the Parker PR364 > relieving regulator that Cliff is using for compensation. > Cheers Alan > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 6 10:27:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 08:27:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification In-Reply-To: EGgMcxJ97aVASEGgNctNdM References: <1655004399.95473.1480978729039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <66c5b811-2409-42cf-9a09-e24329b10577@email.android.com> <1200316e-b748-4662-88aa-39b2dc1523ce@email.android.com> EGgMcxJ97aVASEGgNctNdM Message-ID: You would also ideally reverse the inner seal to preferentially resist the bias pressure inside the housing (even though it may easily seal against 4 psi in the normal orientation), and leave the outer seal orientation alone to preferentially resist seawater incursion. Sean On December 6, 2016 7:23:56 AM MST, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Thanks Sean. The dual lip seals on the MK-101s are spring energized to >handle this zero differential pressure issue. > >Cliff > >On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 7:11 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> One caveat to the embodiment that I described: As seals are >generally >> energized by pressure, when you employ a seal to separate two fluids >at the >> same pressure, you must pay attention to the seal contact in the >absence of >> that pressure differential - possibly opting for a spring energised >seal if >> there otherwise isn't sufficient force on the seal lip. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On December 5, 2016 9:06:33 PM MST, Cliff Redus via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> I can give you my experience with the seals on the Minn-Kota 101 I >have >>> on the R300. Much of this was covered in my Psub presenation at >Watkins >>> Glenn earlier this year. >>> >>> The OTS Minn-Kota lower unit (MK part number 2886289) consist of a >center >>> section that contains the permanent stator magnets, the plain end >housing >>> assembly (bow) that contains two radial roller bearing that support >the >>> shaft and armature assembly, a brush end assembly that holds the >brushes, a >>> bronze flange bearing and two lip seals with a carboard spacer >between them >>> each oriented to expect higher external pressure than internal. >There is a >>> static o-ring seal between the center magnet section and the plain >end >>> housing assembly. On the brush end assembly, the dual lip seals are >design >>> for approximately 10 feet submergence but have been known to work to >a >>> depth of about 30 ft. To modify this MK-101 for the four thrusters >on my >>> boat, I reverse engineered! the brush end assembly so that I could >machine >>> a replacement brush end assembly that beefed up the part so that I >could >>> screw three 316-SS supports to hold a nylon MARLIN Wageningen nozzle >37. >>> This modify part was made of 6061-T6 and hard anodized. This new >part uses >>> the same two lip seals in the original part design and the same >static >>> o-ring seal beween the brush end addemlby and the center section. >In the >>> nozzle that is welded to the center section that the two 10AWG >conductions >>> exit from , I inserted a 316-SS adapter that would accept a Subconn >BHB2M >>> bulkhead connector and a Swagelok 1/4" NPT to 1/4" tube fitting. I >use a >>> single pressure reducing/ releaving regulator that Hugh Fulton >specified >>> for his Q-Sub for air pressure compensation of all four thrusters. >The >>> regultor is adjustable and I have mine set to hold a pressure of 4 >psi over >>> ambient water pressure. >>> >>> For both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modifi! ed >>> version, there is no barrier fluid other than air beween the two lip >seals >>> and their is no compensation line. As Alan mensioned in an earier >post, it >>> is likely that this arrangement would cause the the outer lip seal >to >>> collapse againsit the cardboard spacer beween the two lip seals >because the >>> initial pressure beween the two seal is initially 1 atm. >>> >>> On Jan 24th this year I took my boat to Lake Amistad and did a >manned >>> dive to 155 ft. I had no issues with the thrusters either before or >after >>> the deep dive. They worked great. When I was ascending from the deep >dive I >>> did note that the pressure regulator was releasing air from the >thrusters. >>> When I disassembled the thrusters after the dive, they were all dry. >>> >>> As to Sean's idea of using a positive bias pressure inside the >thruster >>> and filling the space beween the two seals with oil that has ambient >>> pressure via a compensation line, I think this could be done fo! r >both the >>> original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version. Might >be >>> tricky to machine the hole beween the two lip seals but I think it >might be >>> possible. Not sure how you would keep the oil place as there is no >room >>> for a bladder. Might be able to use some kind of plug that would >transmit >>> ambient water pressure to area between the seals. >>> >>> Before I take my boat out again, I am going to call the *Parker >>> Hannifin* guys and get their take how to modify this seal >>> arrangement. In the spirit of KISS, I am leaning towards just >removing the >>> outbound lip seal and relying on the pressure compensation system >and a >>> single lip seal. We don't put a lot of hours on this seal so duty >cycle is >>> light. A single lip seal with pressure compensation might be all >that is >>> required. >>> >>> Maybe we c! ould get Jon to post the PP file on the MK 101 thruster >>> project to the PSubs web site. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Late year I reverse enginnered >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Do the Minn Kota motors have a dual seal arrangement that would >permit >>>> you to run a compensation line to the void between the two seals? ! >I am >>>> not familiar with their design. In designing mission critical >sealing >>>> arrangements, I have always stuck to the rule of thumb of using any >single >>>> seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both >simultaneously. >>>> Thus an ideal arrangement with dual seals would be to run bias >compensated >>>> oil in the housing, unbiased compensated oil in the volume between >the >>>> seals, and then the seawater outside. This way, leakage across the >inner >>>> seal is immaterial because the fluid is the same, and leakage >across the >>>> outer seal is unlikely because there is no delta-P. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> On December 5, 2016 3:58:49 PM MST, Alan James via >Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Rick, >>>>> one method Psubbers were using to compensate thrusters was to have >two >>>>> nipples >>>>> in the thruster with a piece of PVC tube leaving one, wrapping >around >>>>> the thruster >>>>> & joining the other. The idea being that the oil filled PVC tube >>>>> compressed to equalize the thruster. >>>>> It's easy to squeeze the tube with your fingers, but when you have >>>>> water pressure >>>>> squeezing evenly, it's collapse pressure! is quite high. Also >lights >>>>> are compensated like >>>>> this with the wiring running through oil filled PVC tu! be from >the >>>>> back of the light fitting >>>>> to the through hull. Again, the tube needs to be crimped to >initiate >>>>> it's collapse. >>>>> With the addition of a bladder there is no need to worry about >this, >>>>> as the bladder collapses >>>>> easily. If you semi fill the bladder then it can take any >expansion. As >>>>> long as there is enough >>>>> oil in the bladder to cover the compression of any air at the >depth you >>>>> are going, then >>>>> you could have quite a bit of air still left in your thruster. But >the >>>>> ideal is to have >>>>> as little as possible. >>>>> I know Cliff mentioned the problem of the dual seals when he >was >>>>> doing his Minn Kotta >>>>> modifications. I think he built a new end section to the motor, >but >>>>> aren't sure. >>>>> I have heard that the Minn Kotta seals are rated to 15-30ft but >have >>>>> been tested >>>>> to over 100ft in some cases. I have only looked at them from an >obscure >>>>> parts diagram. >>>>> There may be such a small void between them that it would be a non >>>>> issue if the seaward seal >>>>> fails. Sometimes in thrusters with dual seal arrangements the >seaward >>>>> seal is regarded >>>>> as sacrificial because it sees all the grit! etc. >>>>> Today I am emailing manufacturers to try & find a cheaper >version of >>>>> the Parker PR364 >>>>> relieving regulator that Cliff is using for compensation. >>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ____________________________________________! ___ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 6 11:55:49 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 16:55:49 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification In-Reply-To: References: <1655004399.95473.1480978729039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <66c5b811-2409-42cf-9a09-e24329b10577@email.android.com> <1200316e-b748-4662-88aa-39b2dc1523ce@email.android.com> Message-ID: Hi All Parts number 40 on this diagram are the seals. I just packed both the seals and void with loads of marine green propeller grease. Not sure if that is ok or not. They don't leak. I just have a real pain filling them up. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0191/7628/files/2013-N-Minn-Kota-riptide-motors-rttransom-Riptide-80t.pdf?6255360441529777455 All parts numbers etc for the motors are here by the looks of things. https://northlandmarine.com/pages/minn-kota-riptide-transom-mount-motor-diagrams On 6 December 2016 at 15:27, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > You would also ideally reverse the inner seal to preferentially resist the > bias pressure inside the housing (even though it may easily seal against 4 > psi in the normal orientation), and leave the outer seal orientation alone > to preferentially resist seawater incursion. > > Sean > > > On December 6, 2016 7:23:56 AM MST, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks Sean. The dual lip seals on the MK-101s are spring energized to >> handle this zero differential pressure issue. >> >> Cliff >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 7:11 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> One caveat to the embodiment that I described: As seals are generally >>> energized by pressure, when you employ a seal to separate two fluids at the >>> same pressure, you must pay attention to the seal contact in the absence of >>> that pressure differential - possibly opting for a spring energised seal if >>> there otherwise isn't sufficient force on the seal lip. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On December 5, 2016 9:06:33 PM MST, Cliff Redus via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> I can give you my experience with the seals on the Minn-Kota 101 I have >>>> on the R300. Much of this was covered in my Psub presenation at Watkins >>>> Glenn earlier this year. >>>> >>>> The OTS Minn-Kota lower unit (MK part number 2886289) consist of a >>>> center section that contains the permanent stator magnets, the plain end >>>> housing assembly (bow) that contains two radial roller bearing that support >>>> the shaft and armature assembly, a brush end assembly that holds the >>>> brushes, a bronze flange bearing and two lip seals with a carboard spacer >>>> between them each oriented to expect higher external pressure than >>>> internal. There is a static o-ring seal between the center magnet section >>>> and the plain end housing assembly. On the brush end assembly, the dual >>>> lip seals are design for approximately 10 feet submergence but have been >>>> known to work to a depth of about 30 ft. To modify this MK-101 for the >>>> four thrusters on my boat, I reverse engineered! the brush end assembly so >>>> that I could machine a replacement brush end assembly that beefed up the >>>> part so that I could screw three 316-SS supports to hold a nylon MARLIN >>>> Wageningen nozzle 37. This modify part was made of 6061-T6 and hard >>>> anodized. This new part uses the same two lip seals in the original part >>>> design and the same static o-ring seal beween the brush end addemlby and >>>> the center section. In the nozzle that is welded to the center section >>>> that the two 10AWG conductions exit from , I inserted a 316-SS adapter that >>>> would accept a Subconn BHB2M bulkhead connector and a Swagelok 1/4" NPT to >>>> 1/4" tube fitting. I use a single pressure reducing/ releaving regulator >>>> that Hugh Fulton specified for his Q-Sub for air pressure compensation of >>>> all four thrusters. The regultor is adjustable and I have mine set to hold >>>> a pressure of 4 psi over ambient water pressure. >>>> >>>> For both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modifi! ed >>>> version, there is no barrier fluid other than air beween the two lip seals >>>> and their is no compensation line. As Alan mensioned in an earier post, it >>>> is likely that this arrangement would cause the the outer lip seal to >>>> collapse againsit the cardboard spacer beween the two lip seals because the >>>> initial pressure beween the two seal is initially 1 atm. >>>> >>>> On Jan 24th this year I took my boat to Lake Amistad and did a manned >>>> dive to 155 ft. I had no issues with the thrusters either before or after >>>> the deep dive. They worked great. When I was ascending from the deep dive I >>>> did note that the pressure regulator was releasing air from the thrusters. >>>> When I disassembled the thrusters after the dive, they were all dry. >>>> >>>> As to Sean's idea of using a positive bias pressure inside the thruster >>>> and filling the space beween the two seals with oil that has ambient >>>> pressure via a compensation line, I think this could be done fo! r both the >>>> original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version. Might be >>>> tricky to machine the hole beween the two lip seals but I think it might be >>>> possible. Not sure how you would keep the oil place as there is no room >>>> for a bladder. Might be able to use some kind of plug that would transmit >>>> ambient water pressure to area between the seals. >>>> >>>> Before I take my boat out again, I am going to call the *Parker >>>> Hannifin* guys and get their take how to modify this seal >>>> arrangement. In the spirit of KISS, I am leaning towards just removing the >>>> outbound lip seal and relying on the pressure compensation system and a >>>> single lip seal. We don't put a lot of hours on this seal so duty cycle is >>>> light. A single lip seal with pressure compensation might be all that is >>>> required. >>>> >>>> Maybe we c! ould get Jon to post the PP file on the MK 101 thruster >>>> project to the PSubs web site. >>>> >>>> Cliff >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Late year I reverse enginnered >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Do the Minn Kota motors have! a dual seal arrangement that would >>>>> permit you to run a compensation line to the void between the two seals? ! >>>>> I am not familiar with their design. In designing mission critical sealing >>>>> arrangements, I have always stuck to the rule of thumb of using any single >>>>> seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both simultaneously. >>>>> Thus an ideal arrangement with dual seals would be to run bias compensated >>>>> oil in the housing, unbiased compensated oil in the volume between the >>>>> seals, and then the seawater outside. This way, leakage across the inner >>>>> seal is immaterial because the fluid is the same, and leakage across the >>>>> outer seal is unlikely because there is no delta-P. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On December 5, 2016 3:58:49 PM MST, Alan James via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Rick, >>>>>> one method Psubbers were using to compensate thrusters was to have >>>>>> two nipples >>>>>> in the thruster with a piece of PVC tube leaving one, wrapping around >>>>>> the thruster >>>>>> & joining the other. The idea being that the oil filled PVC tube >>>>>> compressed to equalize the thruster. >>>>>> It's easy to squeeze the tube with your fingers, but when you have >>>>>> water pressure >>>>>> squeezing evenly, it's collapse pressure! is quite high. Also lights >>>>>> are compensated like >>>>>> this with the wiring running through oil filled PVC tu! be from the >>>>>> back of the light fitting >>>>>> to the through hull. Again, the tube needs to be crimped to initiate >>>>>> it's collapse. >>>>>> With the addition of a bladder there is no need to worry about >>>>>> this, as the bladder collapses >>>>>> easily. If you semi fill the bladder then it can take any expansion. >>>>>> As long as there is enough >>>>>> oil in the bladder to cover the compression of any air at the depth >>>>>> you are going, then >>>>>> you could have quite a bit of air still left in your thruster. But >>>>>> the ideal is to have >>>>>> as little as possible. >>>>>> I know Cliff mentioned the problem of the dual seals when he was >>>>>> doing his Minn Kotta >>>>>> modifications. I think he built a new end section to the motor, but >>>>>> aren't sure. >>>>>> I have heard that the Minn Kotta seals are rated to 15-30ft but >>>>>> have been tested >>>>>> to over 100ft in some cases. I have only looked at them from an >>>>>> obscure parts diagram. >>>>>> There may be such a small void between them that it would be a non >>>>>> issue if the seaward seal >>>>>> fails. Sometimes in thrusters with dual seal arrangements the seaward >>>>>> seal is regarded >>>>>> as sacrificial because it sees all the grit! etc. >>>>>> Today I am emailing manufacturers to try & find a cheaper version >>>>>> of the Parker PR364 >>>>>> relieving regulator that Cliff is using for compensation. >>>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ____________________________________________! ___ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 6 12:17:21 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 17:17:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification In-Reply-To: References: <1655004399.95473.1480978729039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <66c5b811-2409-42cf-9a09-e24329b10577@email.android.com> <1511951832.350105.1481007746755@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <472424900.667345.1481044641833@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,this brochure has it on page 88 under Vulcan parallelspring diaphragm seal type 20. Mine is for a 10mm shaft.It needs to be run in oil. I am using a 10cst oil, shell Morlina S2 BL.I have?designed my thruster?with the stationary part of the seal butted against acirclip. This is not ideal, but permissible & makes it easier to assemble & replace.As Sean says, this is considered mounting the wrong way round but is the correctorientation for the direction of the force.See attached diagram.Alan From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 3:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification Alan, I am having trouble pulling up the Vulcan seal off the V3 0100.20.N.C. part number.? Can you send a link so I can have a look at this single mechanical seal?? I have quite a bit of room for the seal so if it is not to big, it might work. Cliff On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:02 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, thanks for wading in. Can you fit a mechanical seal in the Minn kotta end housing? ?? I have ended up choosing a mechanical seal for my brushless thruster.? (V3 0100.20.N.C.) I firstly consulted with an N.Z. rep who recommended this bellows type seal; then after buying it, ended up sending my drawings & description of operation to Vulcan the manufacturer, who independently recommended the same seal. ?? I have a gap between my bearing & seal that doesn't allow for free flow of oil & are going to drill a hole at an angle in to this cavity from the middle section of my thruster housing. ?? Glad to hear there was air coming out of the relieving valve on the regulator; it must work! I am finalizing a purchase of some similar regulators for my thrusters. Alan From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification I can give you my experience with the seals on the Minn-Kota 101 I have on the R300.? Much of this was covered in my Psub presenation at Watkins Glenn earlier this year. The OTS Minn-Kota lower unit (MK part number 2886289)?consist of a center section that contains the permanent stator magnets, the plain end housing assembly (bow) that contains two radial roller bearing that support the shaft and armature assembly, a brush end assembly that holds the brushes, a bronze flange bearing and two lip seals with a carboard spacer between them each oriented to expect higher external pressure than internal.? There is a static o-ring seal between the center magnet section and the plain end housing assembly.? On the brush end assembly, the dual lip seals are design for approximately 10 feet submergence but have been known to work to a depth of about 30 ft.? To modify this MK-101 for the four thrusters on my boat, I reverse engineered the brush end assembly so that I could machine a replacement? brush end assembly that beefed up the part so that I could screw three 316-SS supports to hold a nylon MARLIN Wageningen nozzle 37.? This modify part was made of 6061-T6 and hard anodized.? This new part uses the same two lip seals in the original part design and the same static o-ring seal beween the brush end addemlby and the center section.??In the nozzle?that is welded to the center section that the two 10AWG conductions exit from , I inserted a 316-SS adapter that would accept a Subconn BHB2M bulkhead connector and a Swagelok 1/4" NPT to 1/4" tube fitting.? I use a single pressure reducing/ releaving regulator that Hugh Fulton specified for his Q-Sub for air pressure compensation of all four thrusters.? The regultor is adjustable and I have mine set to hold a pressure of 4 psi over ambient water pressure.? For both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version, there is no barrier fluid other than air beween the two lip seals and their is no compensation line.? As Alan mensioned in an earier post, it is likely that this arrangement would cause the the outer lip seal to collapse againsit the cardboard spacer beween the two lip seals because the initial pressure beween the two seal is initially 1 atm.?? On Jan 24th this year I took my boat to Lake Amistad and did a manned dive to 155 ft.?I had no issues with the thrusters either before or after the deep dive. They worked great.?When I was ascending from the deep dive I did note that the pressure regulator was releasing air from the thrusters. When I disassembled the thrusters after the dive, they were all dry. As to Sean's idea of using a positive bias pressure inside the thruster and filling the space beween the two seals with oil that has ambient pressure via a compensation line, I think this could be done for both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version.? Might be tricky to machine the hole beween the two lip seals but I think it might be possible.? Not sure how you would keep the oil place as there is no room for a bladder.?Might be able to use some kind of plug that would transmit ambient water pressure to area between the seals. Before I take my boat out again, I am going to call the? Parker Hannifin guys and get their take how to modify this seal arrangement.?In the spirit of KISS, ?I am leaning towards just removing the outbound lip seal and relying on the pressure compensation system and a single lip seal.?We don't put a lot of hours on this seal so duty cycle is light.? A single lip seal with pressure compensation might be all that is required. Maybe we could get Jon to post the PP file on the MK 101 thruster project to the PSubs web site. Cliff ? Late year I reverse enginnered On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Do the Minn Kota motors have a dual seal arrangement that would permit you to run a compensation line to the void between the two seals?? I am not familiar with their design. In designing mission critical sealing arrangements, I have always stuck to the rule of thumb of using any single seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both simultaneously.? Thus an ideal arrangement with dual seals would be to run bias compensated oil in the housing, unbiased compensated oil in the volume between the seals, and then the seawater outside. This way, leakage across the inner seal is immaterial because the fluid is the same, and leakage across the outer seal is unlikely because there is no delta-P.Sean On December 5, 2016 3:58:49 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, one method Psubbers were using to compensate thrusters was to have two nipples in the thruster with a piece of PVC tube leaving one, wrapping around the thruster & joining the other. The idea being that the oil filled PVC tube compressed to equalize the thruster. It's easy to squeeze the tube with your fingers, but when you have water pressure squeezing evenly, it's collapse pressure is quite high. Also lights are compensated like this with the wiring running through oil filled PVC tu! be fromthe back of the light fitting to the through hull. Again, the tube needs to be crimped to initiate it's collapse. ?? With the addition of a bladder there is no need to worry about this, as the bladder collapses easily. If you semi fill the bladder then it can take any expansion. As long as there is enough oil in the bladder to cover the compression of any air at the depth you are going, then you could have quite a bit of air still left in your thruster. But the ideal is to have as little as possible. ?? I know Cliff mentioned the problem of the dual seals when he was doing his Minn Kotta modifications. I think he built a new end section to the motor, but aren't sure. ?? I have heard that the Minn Kotta seals are rated to 15-30ft but have been tested to over 100ft in some cases. I have only looked at them from an obscure parts diagram. There may be such a small void between them that it would be a non issue if the seaward seal fails. Sometimes in thrusters with dual seal arrangements the seaward seal is regarded as sacrificial because it sees all the grit etc. ?? Today I am emailing manufacturers to try & find a cheaper version of the Parker PR364 relieving regulator that Cliff is using for compensation. Cheers Alan Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Thruster seal assembly.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 280151 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 6 14:46:20 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 19:46:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification In-Reply-To: References: <1655004399.95473.1480978729039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <66c5b811-2409-42cf-9a09-e24329b10577@email.android.com> <1511951832.350105.1481007746755@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <481501657.813389.1481053580769@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,forgot to put the link in.http://www.brammer.ie/Brochures/Seals.pdfThat's what happens when you email early in themorning before your brain wakes up.Aan From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 3:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification Alan, I am having trouble pulling up the Vulcan seal off the V3 0100.20.N.C. part number.? Can you send a link so I can have a look at this single mechanical seal?? I have quite a bit of room for the seal so if it is not to big, it might work. Cliff On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:02 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, thanks for wading in. Can you fit a mechanical seal in the Minn kotta end housing? ?? I have ended up choosing a mechanical seal for my brushless thruster.? (V3 0100.20.N.C.) I firstly consulted with an N.Z. rep who recommended this bellows type seal; then after buying it, ended up sending my drawings & description of operation to Vulcan the manufacturer, who independently recommended the same seal. ?? I have a gap between my bearing & seal that doesn't allow for free flow of oil & are going to drill a hole at an angle in to this cavity from the middle section of my thruster housing. ?? Glad to hear there was air coming out of the relieving valve on the regulator; it must work! I am finalizing a purchase of some similar regulators for my thrusters. Alan From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Modification I can give you my experience with the seals on the Minn-Kota 101 I have on the R300.? Much of this was covered in my Psub presenation at Watkins Glenn earlier this year. The OTS Minn-Kota lower unit (MK part number 2886289)?consist of a center section that contains the permanent stator magnets, the plain end housing assembly (bow) that contains two radial roller bearing that support the shaft and armature assembly, a brush end assembly that holds the brushes, a bronze flange bearing and two lip seals with a carboard spacer between them each oriented to expect higher external pressure than internal.? There is a static o-ring seal between the center magnet section and the plain end housing assembly.? On the brush end assembly, the dual lip seals are design for approximately 10 feet submergence but have been known to work to a depth of about 30 ft.? To modify this MK-101 for the four thrusters on my boat, I reverse engineered the brush end assembly so that I could machine a replacement? brush end assembly that beefed up the part so that I could screw three 316-SS supports to hold a nylon MARLIN Wageningen nozzle 37.? This modify part was made of 6061-T6 and hard anodized.? This new part uses the same two lip seals in the original part design and the same static o-ring seal beween the brush end addemlby and the center section.??In the nozzle?that is welded to the center section that the two 10AWG conductions exit from , I inserted a 316-SS adapter that would accept a Subconn BHB2M bulkhead connector and a Swagelok 1/4" NPT to 1/4" tube fitting.? I use a single pressure reducing/ releaving regulator that Hugh Fulton specified for his Q-Sub for air pressure compensation of all four thrusters.? The regultor is adjustable and I have mine set to hold a pressure of 4 psi over ambient water pressure.? For both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version, there is no barrier fluid other than air beween the two lip seals and their is no compensation line.? As Alan mensioned in an earier post, it is likely that this arrangement would cause the the outer lip seal to collapse againsit the cardboard spacer beween the two lip seals because the initial pressure beween the two seal is initially 1 atm.?? On Jan 24th this year I took my boat to Lake Amistad and did a manned dive to 155 ft.?I had no issues with the thrusters either before or after the deep dive. They worked great.?When I was ascending from the deep dive I did note that the pressure regulator was releasing air from the thrusters. When I disassembled the thrusters after the dive, they were all dry. As to Sean's idea of using a positive bias pressure inside the thruster and filling the space beween the two seals with oil that has ambient pressure via a compensation line, I think this could be done for both the original MK-101 brush end assembly and my modified version.? Might be tricky to machine the hole beween the two lip seals but I think it might be possible.? Not sure how you would keep the oil place as there is no room for a bladder.?Might be able to use some kind of plug that would transmit ambient water pressure to area between the seals. Before I take my boat out again, I am going to call the? Parker Hannifin guys and get their take how to modify this seal arrangement.?In the spirit of KISS, ?I am leaning towards just removing the outbound lip seal and relying on the pressure compensation system and a single lip seal.?We don't put a lot of hours on this seal so duty cycle is light.? A single lip seal with pressure compensation might be all that is required. Maybe we could get Jon to post the PP file on the MK 101 thruster project to the PSubs web site. Cliff ? Late year I reverse enginnered On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Do the Minn Kota motors have a dual seal arrangement that would permit you to run a compensation line to the void between the two seals?? I am not familiar with their design. In designing mission critical sealing arrangements, I have always stuck to the rule of thumb of using any single seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both simultaneously.? Thus an ideal arrangement with dual seals would be to run bias compensated oil in the housing, unbiased compensated oil in the volume between the seals, and then the seawater outside. This way, leakage across the inner seal is immaterial because the fluid is the same, and leakage across the outer seal is unlikely because there is no delta-P.Sean On December 5, 2016 3:58:49 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, one method Psubbers were using to compensate thrusters was to have two nipples in the thruster with a piece of PVC tube leaving one, wrapping around the thruster & joining the other. The idea being that the oil filled PVC tube compressed to equalize the thruster. It's easy to squeeze the tube with your fingers, but when you have water pressure squeezing evenly, it's collapse pressure is quite high. Also lights are compensated like this with the wiring running through oil filled PVC tu! be fromthe back of the light fitting to the through hull. Again, the tube needs to be crimped to initiate it's collapse. ?? With the addition of a bladder there is no need to worry about this, as the bladder collapses easily. If you semi fill the bladder then it can take any expansion. As long as there is enough oil in the bladder to cover the compression of any air at the depth you are going, then you could have quite a bit of air still left in your thruster. But the ideal is to have as little as possible. ?? I know Cliff mentioned the problem of the dual seals when he was doing his Minn Kotta modifications. I think he built a new end section to the motor, but aren't sure. ?? I have heard that the Minn Kotta seals are rated to 15-30ft but have been tested to over 100ft in some cases. I have only looked at them from an obscure parts diagram. There may be such a small void between them that it would be a non issue if the seaward seal fails. Sometimes in thrusters with dual seal arrangements the seaward seal is regarded as sacrificial because it sees all the grit etc. ?? Today I am emailing manufacturers to try & find a cheaper version of the Parker PR364 relieving regulator that Cliff is using for compensation. Cheers Alan Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 6 17:32:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 22:32:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] camera location References: <1594737071.878558.1481063573722.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1594737071.878558.1481063573722@mail.yahoo.com> Manipulator construction is going great! ?I am thinking about mounting my external camera on the manipulator so that I can look around without moving. ?I am not sure if this is a good idea. ?Should the camera be stationary?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 7 16:38:16 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 11:38:16 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things? My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and expands. Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far? So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well? Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Some compensating thoughts. > On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they > were compensating. > These come with various means of hose attachment. > With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on > a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly > the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's > technicians told me they crimped the hose > that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose > for compensation. > The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal > overpressure, > but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came > up with > the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). > Cliff is using this. > This could be used for air or oil compensation. > The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use > about a teaspoon a day. Based > on that I would have some sort of reservoir. > Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you > have a bearing in a bore > followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing > which may be a sealed type > or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; > so how do you get oil or > ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's > pressure limit. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > > Hi Antoine\Hank. > > Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a furniture > lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for the aft > motor. > > Hank, what do you use for a bladder? > > Thanks > James > > On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > James, > I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works like > a dream. > Hank > > > On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi frank > I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled > compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with > long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. > The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport > platypus drinking bladder > Works well > Regards > Antoine > On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi All > > I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me > thinking. > > I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber > tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. Problem > is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on > the inside. > > So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the > aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its better, but > still awkward. > > I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself. > Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and > filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would be a > rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show filling > and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. > > What does everyone think? > > > ? > ? > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 7 17:11:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 15:11:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: EjwdcCfB1aVASEjwec6sPa References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> EjwdcCfB1aVASEjwec6sPa Message-ID: <3620386d-a911-4f74-a6b2-4442d38343cf@email.android.com> Rick - if all you have is the tube (i.e. no separate bladder), then if you fill it completely, any additional oil has no place to go unless the tube wall stretches. Similarly, most tubes with any rigidity at all resist collapse due to external pressure, so if you have an air bubble within the housing that shrinks and demands compensation oil, the tube won't necessarily deliver it unless it is able to collapse - meaning either it has to be flimsy, or you have to crimp or bend it in order to initiate the collapse, so that the collapse can propagate down the remainder of the tube length in order to lose volume. Ideally, your compensation reservoir is filled to an intermediate volume that can either accept or deliver oil as demanded. Keep in mind that as your motor heats up, the oil will heat up and expand, but then the housing will heat up and increase volume, drawing back some of that oil. A good compensation system has some capacity in both directions. The comment about lights was that wiring can be run through oil filled tubes in order to pressure compensate the light housings, but this can suffer from the same problem - clear PVC tubing is a lot stronger than you might think, and you need to help it along with a crimp, otherwise external pressure may stress the tubing but not actually compress it. Personally, I am a fan of rigid plumbing to a remote non rigid oil reservoir (which may be pressure biased or not, depending on the application), but I know that doesn't work for everybody. Bubbles aren't a huge deal, as long as you have enough compensation oil available to accommodate the volume change due to pressure. Obviously you should vent as much air as you can out of the system. Sean On December 7, 2016 2:38:16 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Alan, > >I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You >mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around >there >Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention >about >lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things? >My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that >wraps >around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and >expands. >Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could >completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that >matter) >and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a >liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the >small >space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight >internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, >people >use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which >is >also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to >expand >rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far? >So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to >allow >for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring >to >dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or >clear >hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress >that >bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as >well? > >Rick > > >On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Some compensating thoughts. >> On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what >they >> were compensating. >> These come with various means of hose attachment. >> With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some >calculations on >> a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly >> the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's >> technicians told me they crimped the hose >> that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the >hose >> for compensation. >> The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi >internal >> overpressure, >> but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh >came >> up with >> the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker >PR364). >> Cliff is using this. >> This could be used for air or oil compensation. >> The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can >use >> about a teaspoon a day. Based >> on that I would have some sort of reservoir. >> Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If >you >> have a bearing in a bore >> followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the >bearing >> which may be a sealed type >> or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 >seals; >> so how do you get oil or >> ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's >> pressure limit. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification >> >> Hi Antoine\Hank. >> >> Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a >furniture >> lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for the >aft >> motor. >> >> Hank, what do you use for a bladder? >> >> Thanks >> James >> >> On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> James, >> I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works >like >> a dream. >> Hank >> >> >> On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> >> Hi frank >> I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled >> compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge >with >> long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. >> The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport >> platypus drinking bladder >> Works well >> Regards >> Antoine >> On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Hi All >> >> I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me >> thinking. >> >> I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the >rubber >> tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. >Problem >> is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe >nipple on >> the inside. >> >> So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the >> aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its >better, but >> still awkward. >> >> I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt >myself. >> Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and >> filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would >be a >> rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show >filling >> and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. >> >> What does everyone think? >> >> >> ? >> ? >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 7 18:42:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 23:42:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, &calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is about .0007. Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a bigger problem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & leakingthen contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if Ican find them.Regards Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things??My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and expands.Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far?So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well?? Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some compensating thoughts. On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they were compensating. These come with various means of hose attachment. ?? With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's technicians told me they crimped the hose that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose for compensation. ?? The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal overpressure, but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came up with the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). Cliff is using this. This could be used for air or oil compensation. ?? The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use about a teaspoon a day. Based on that I would have some sort of reservoir. ?? Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you have a bearing in a bore followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing which may be a sealed type or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; so how do you get oil or ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's pressure limit. Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aft motor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 7 18:51:13 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 23:51:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <169053582.8461.1481154673703@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, found some of Carsten's comments.Nothing like experience.....Alan and the other gentlemens, our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. vbr Carsten ?? From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, &calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is about .0007. Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a bigger problem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & leakingthen contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if Ican find them.Regards Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things??My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and expands.Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far?So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well?? Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some compensating thoughts. On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they were compensating. These come with various means of hose attachment. ?? With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's technicians told me they crimped the hose that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose for compensation. ?? The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal overpressure, but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came up with the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). Cliff is using this. This could be used for air or oil compensation. ?? The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use about a teaspoon a day. Based on that I would have some sort of reservoir. ?? Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you have a bearing in a bore followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing which may be a sealed type or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; so how do you get oil or ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's pressure limit. Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aft motor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 7 18:59:02 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 15:59:02 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inside ballast Message-ID: <20161207155902.C405F223@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 7 22:03:45 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 17:03:45 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <3620386d-a911-4f74-a6b2-4442d38343cf@email.android.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <3620386d-a911-4f74-a6b2-4442d38343cf@email.android.com> Message-ID: Thanks Alan and Sean for bearing with me on this and re stating it so it made sense. I just want to make sure I get it rite the first time if possible! Rick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick - if all you have is the tube (i.e. no separate bladder), then if you > fill it completely, any additional oil has no place to go unless the tube > wall stretches. Similarly, most tubes with any rigidity at all resist > collapse due to external pressure, so if you have an air bubble within the > housing that shrinks and demands compensation oil, the tube won't > necessarily deliver it unless it is able to collapse - meaning either it > has to be flimsy, or you have to crimp or bend it in order to initiate the > collapse, so that the collapse can propagate down the remainder of the tube > length in order to lose volume. Ideally, your compensation reservoir is > filled to an intermediate volume that can either accept or deliver oil as > demanded. Keep in mind that as your motor heats up, the oil will heat up > and expand, but then the housing will heat up and increase volume, drawing > back some of that oil. A good compensation system has some ca! pacity in > both directions. The comment about lights was that wiring can be run > through oil filled tubes in order to pressure compensate the light > housings, but this can suffer from the same problem - clear PVC tubing is a > lot stronger than you might think, and you need to help it along with a > crimp, otherwise external pressure may stress the tubing but not actually > compress it. Personally, I am a fan of rigid plumbing to a remote non rigid > oil reservoir (which may be pressure biased or not, depending on the > application), but I know that doesn't work for everybody. Bubbles aren't a > huge deal, as long as you have enough compensation oil available to > accommodate the volume change due to pressure. Obviously you should vent as > much air as you can out of the system. > > Sean > > > On December 7, 2016 2:38:16 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alan, >> >> I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You >> mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there >> Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about >> lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things? >> My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that >> wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and >> expands. >> Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could >> completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) >> and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a >> liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small >> space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight >> internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people >> use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is >> also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand >> rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far? >> So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow >> for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to >> dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear >> hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that >> bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well? >> >> Rick >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Some compensating thoughts. >>> On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they >>> were compensating. >>> These come with various means of hose attachment. >>> With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations >>> on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly >>> the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's >>> technicians told me they crimped t! he hose >>> that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose >>> for compensation. >>> The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal >>> overpressure, >>> but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh >>> came up with >>> the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker >>> PR364). Cliff is using this. >>> This could be used for air or oil compensation. >>> The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use >>> about a teaspoon a day. Based >>> on that I would have some sort of reservoir. >>> Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If >>> you have a bearing in a bore >>> followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing >>> which may be a sealed type >>> or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; >>> so how do you get oil or >>> ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's >>> pressure limit. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification >>> >>> Hi Antoine\Hank. >>> >>> Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a >>> furniture lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for >>> the aft motor. >>> >>> Hank, what do you use for a bladder? >>> >>> Thanks >>> James >>> >>> On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> James, >>> I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works >>> like a dream. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via >>> Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi frank >>> I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled >>> compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with >>> long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. >>> The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport >>> platypus drinking bladder >>> Works well >>> Regards >>> Antoine >>> >>> On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >> org > wrote: >>> >>> Hi All >>> >>> I have been talking to ! Rick about motor compensation which has got me >>> thinking. >>> >>> I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber >>> tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. Problem >>> is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on >>> the inside. >>> >>> So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the >>> aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its better, but >>> still awkward. >>> >>> I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself. >>> Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and >>> filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would be a >>> rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show filling >>> and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. >>> >>> What does everyone think? >>> >>> >>> ? >>> ? >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 8 01:38:17 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 06:38:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <3620386d-a911-4f74-a6b2-4442d38343cf@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1863256171.202545.1481179097452@mail.yahoo.com> That's OK Rick,we will organize a Psub conference in Hawaii based around your submarine,when you have it perfected! :)Alan? From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Thanks Alan and Sean for bearing with me on this and re stating it so it made sense. I just want to make sure I get it rite the first time if possible! Rick? On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick - if all you have is the tube (i.e. no separate bladder), then if you fill it completely, any additional oil has no place to go unless the tube wall stretches. Similarly, most tubes with any rigidity at all resist collapse due to external pressure, so if you have an air bubble within the housing that shrinks and demands compensation oil, the tube won't necessarily deliver it unless it is able to collapse - meaning either it has to be flimsy, or you have to crimp or bend it in order to initiate the collapse, so that the collapse can propagate down the remainder of the tube length in order to lose volume.? Ideally, your compensation reservoir is filled to an intermediate volume that can either accept or deliver oil as demanded.? Keep in mind that as your motor heats up, the oil will heat up and expand, but then the housing will heat up and increase volume, drawing back some of that oil. A good compensation system has some ca! pacityin both directions. The comment about lights was that wiring can be run through oil filled tubes in order to pressure compensate the light housings, but this can suffer from the same problem - clear PVC tubing is a lot stronger than you might think, and you need to help it along with a crimp, otherwise external pressure may stress the tubing but not actually compress it. Personally, I am a fan of rigid plumbing to a remote non rigid oil reservoir (which may be pressure biased or not, depending on the application), but I know that doesn't work for everybody.? Bubbles aren't a huge deal, as long as you have enough compensation oil available to accommodate the volume change due to pressure. Obviously you should vent as much air as you can out of the system.Sean On December 7, 2016 2:38:16 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things??My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and expands.Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people use the clear tubing that wraps around theoutside of the motor (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far?So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well?? Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some compensating thoughts. On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they were compensating. These come with various means of hose attachment. ?? With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's technicians told me they crimped t! he hose that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose for compensation. ?? The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal overpressure, but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came up with the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). Cliff is using this. This could be used for air or oil compensation. ?? The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use about a teaspoon a day. Based on that I would have some sort of reservoir. ?? Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you have a bearing in a bore followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing which may be a sealed type or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; so how do you get oil or ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's pressure limit. Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To:Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aftmotor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steelneedle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to ! Rickabout motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 8 11:44:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 09:44:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inside ballast In-Reply-To: Em8zcroGCaC0PEm90c6U9t References: Em8zcroGCaC0PEm90c6U9t Message-ID: If any pressure vessel inside the personnel compartment (or its associated piping / fittings downstream of a hull shutoff valve) were to fail and release its contents into the compartment, it must not raise the internal pressure of the compartment by more than 1 ATM (demonstrated by calculations). If it does, it must go outside, no exceptions. Also, technically you're supposed to have two independent methods of emptying hard ballast tanks, so for example, pumping them out against the sea pressure with a high pressure pump (powered or manual) and simultaneously venting 1 ATM air into the tank with a check valve as one method, and opening the tank to sea and blowing it out with HP air as the second method. Sean On December 7, 2016 4:59:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I'm routing my lines to use two scuba tanks as my internal ballast. I >estimate the total weight if they are both filled with water to be >around 42 lbs. (about 570 cu in for each, alum 80's) . What kind of >water line does everybody use? I was considering using soft copper but >I'm not sure of it's pressure rating. Or maybe that is not such an >issue. It could see some pressure using the HP tanks in a closed >position, which then could be an issue I guess. But I would most >likely just give a little blast of HP air to push the water out. Hmmm, >wonder if I should have the option to vent outside the sub if I had >some air pressure in the ballast tanks? or I guess I could just simply >let it push all the water out and then it would get expelled that way. > Are there any specific rules like that for inside ballast tanks? > > > >Brian > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 8 11:53:43 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 09:53:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inside ballast In-Reply-To: Em8zcroGCaC0PEm90c6U9t References: Em8zcroGCaC0PEm90c6U9t Message-ID: <052d66c1-254a-4547-8fc6-eb158e088444@email.android.com> Also, I wouldn't use copper for anything other than domestic water or low pressure air, and even then, it isn't an ideal choice for the marine environment. ABS requires a rating of four times the operating pressure. I typically use Swagelok seamless tubing in 316 SS, and there are different diameters available to match your flow requirements, and different wall thicknesses available to match your pressure requirements. I use HP Autoclave tubing for the really high pressure stuff (15,000 - 60,000 psi), which is also 316 SS - of course, PSubs should never need such pressures. Sean On December 7, 2016 4:59:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I'm routing my lines to use two scuba tanks as my internal ballast. I >estimate the total weight if they are both filled with water to be >around 42 lbs. (about 570 cu in for each, alum 80's) . What kind of >water line does everybody use? I was considering using soft copper but >I'm not sure of it's pressure rating. Or maybe that is not such an >issue. It could see some pressure using the HP tanks in a closed >position, which then could be an issue I guess. But I would most >likely just give a little blast of HP air to push the water out. Hmmm, >wonder if I should have the option to vent outside the sub if I had >some air pressure in the ballast tanks? or I guess I could just simply >let it push all the water out and then it would get expelled that way. > Are there any specific rules like that for inside ballast tanks? > > > >Brian > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 8 13:05:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 08:05:05 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <1863256171.202545.1481179097452@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <3620386d-a911-4f74-a6b2-4442d38343cf@email.android.com> <1863256171.202545.1481179097452@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks. It would be great to have a convention here due to the nice weather and clear water but realistically Florida has the same and is much easier and cheaper for most of you to get to. I still need to come to a mainland convention and put faces with names after hearing them for the last 5 or more years. Rick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 8:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > That's OK Rick, > we will organize a Psub conference in Hawaii based around your submarine, > when you have it perfected! :) > Alan > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, December 8, 2016 4:03 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > > Thanks Alan and Sean for bearing with me on this and re stating it so it > made sense. I just want to make sure I get it rite the first time if > possible! > > Rick > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Rick - if all you have is the tube (i.e. no separate bladder), then if you > fill it completely, any additional oil has no place to go unless the tube > wall stretches. Similarly, most tubes with any rigidity at all resist > collapse due to external pressure, so if you have an air bubble within the > housing that shrinks and demands compensation oil, the tube won't > necessarily deliver it unless it is able to collapse - meaning either it > has to be flimsy, or you have to crimp or bend it in order to initiate the > collapse, so that the collapse can propagate down the remainder of the tube > length in order to lose volume. Ideally, your compensation reservoir is > filled to an intermediate volume that can either accept or deliver oil as > demanded. Keep in mind that as your motor heats up, the oil will heat up > and expand, but then the housing will heat up and increase volume, drawing > back some of that oil. A good compensation system has some ca! pacity in > both directions. The comment about lights was that wiring can be run > through oil filled tubes in order to pressure compensate the light > housings, but this can suffer from the same problem - clear PVC tubing is a > lot stronger than you might think, and you need to help it along with a > crimp, otherwise external pressure may stress the tubing but not actually > compress it. Personally, I am a fan of rigid plumbing to a remote non rigid > oil reservoir (which may be pressure biased or not, depending on the > application), but I know that doesn't work for everybody. Bubbles aren't a > huge deal, as long as you have enough compensation oil available to > accommodate the volume change due to pressure. Obviously you should vent as > much air as you can out of the system. > Sean > > > On December 7, 2016 2:38:16 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alan, > > I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You > mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there > Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about > lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things? > My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps > around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and > expands. > Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could > completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) > and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a > liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small > space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight > internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people > use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is > also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand > rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far? > So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow > for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to > dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear > hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that > bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well? > > Rick > > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Some compensating thoughts. > On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they > were compensating. > These come with various means of hose attachment. > With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on > a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly > the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's > technicians told me they crimped t! he hose > that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose > for compensation. > The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal > overpressure, > but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came > up with > the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). > Cliff is using this. > This could be used for air or oil compensation. > The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use > about a teaspoon a day. Based > on that I would have some sort of reservoir. > Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you > have a bearing in a bore > followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing > which may be a sealed type > or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; > so how do you get oil or > ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's > pressure limit. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles rg > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg > > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > > Hi Antoine\Hank. > > Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a furniture > lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for the aft > motor. > > Hank, what do you use for a bladder? > > Thanks > James > > On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles rg > wrote: > > James, > I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works like > a dream. > Hank > > > On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi frank > I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled > compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with > long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. > The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport > platypus drinking bladder > Works well > Regards > Antoine > > On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi All > > I have been talking to ! Rick about motor compensation which has got me > thinking. > > I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber > tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. Problem > is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on > the inside. > > So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the > aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its better, but > still awkward. > > I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself. > Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and > filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would be a > rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show filling > and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. > > What does everyone think? > > > ? > ? > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 8 13:18:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 10:18:56 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inside ballast Message-ID: <20161208101856.C4033BE4@m0087792.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 9 10:34:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:34:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hydraulic system References: <1896759620.1049485.1481297691675.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1896759620.1049485.1481297691675@mail.yahoo.com> So, I built my hydraulic system for the new manipulator. ?I decided to go with a oil filled Min kota motor driving a pump. ?The motor is ?bladder compensated and submerged in hydraulic fluid along with the valve bank and a battery to drive it. ?The whole assembly is in a fibreglass ?container that is oil filled and compensated. ?The entire thing is quite compact and will jettison with the manipulator and thrusters.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 9 12:17:49 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2016 10:17:49 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hydraulic system In-Reply-To: FNGJc2TT8amNPFNGKcDxL0 References: <1896759620.1049485.1481297691675.ref@mail.yahoo.com> FNGJc2TT8amNPFNGKcDxL0 Message-ID: Hank, you work faster than I can think. Sean On December 9, 2016 8:34:51 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >So, I built my hydraulic system for the new manipulator. ?I decided to >go with a oil filled Min kota motor driving a pump. ?The motor is >?bladder compensated and submerged in hydraulic fluid along with the >valve bank and a battery to drive it. ?The whole assembly is in a >fibreglass ?container that is oil filled and compensated. ?The entire >thing is quite compact and will jettison with the manipulator and >thrusters.Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 9 15:16:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 20:16:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hydraulic system In-Reply-To: References: <1896759620.1049485.1481297691675.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1696796950.1226726.1481314613028@mail.yahoo.com> I don't know about that Sean, your a pretty sharp guy.Hank On Friday, December 9, 2016 10:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, you work faster than I can think.Sean On December 9, 2016 8:34:51 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: So, I built my hydraulic system for the new manipulator. ?I decided to go with a oil filled Min kota motor driving a pump. ?The motor is ?bladder compensated and submerged in hydraulic fluid along with the valve bank and a battery to drive it. ?The whole assembly is in a fibreglass ?container that is oil filled and compensated. ?The entire thing is quite compact and will jettison with the manipulator and thrusters.Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 9 15:57:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:57:38 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hydraulic system In-Reply-To: References: <1896759620.1049485.1481297691675.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank builds stuff faster than I can read the emails about it. Alec On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 12:17 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hank, you work faster than I can think. > > Sean > > > On December 9, 2016 8:34:51 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> So, I built my hydraulic system for the new manipulator. I decided to go >> with a oil filled Min kota motor driving a pump. The motor is bladder >> compensated and submerged in hydraulic fluid along with the valve bank and >> a battery to drive it. The whole assembly is in a fibreglass container >> that is oil filled and compensated. The entire thing is quite compact and >> will jettison with the manipulator and thrusters. >> Hank >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 10 13:06:36 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:06:36 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inside ballast Message-ID: <20161210100636.E7F29B54@m0087794.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 10 13:10:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 18:10:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inside ballast In-Reply-To: <20161210100636.E7F29B54@m0087794.ppops.net> References: <20161210100636.E7F29B54@m0087794.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1114603914.369029.1481393454323@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I was at a hydraulic hose shop yesterday and they sell real nice 3,000 psi air hose with reusable ends. ?Why not just go with your original plan to blow the tank and use a good quality line to carry the water out.?Easy as pie and your doneHank On Saturday, December 10, 2016 11:06 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thinking of something like this as a inside ballast pump.? I think the diaphragm pumps would be better since the diaphragms are rubber and wouldn't rust;???https://www.amazon.com/100PSI-Pressure-Diaphragm-Water-Pump/dp/B00XDSJEJY???Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inside ballast Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 10:18:56 -0800 Hmmm, that kind of makes a case for not using HP air to get rid of that water ballast inside the hull.? My goal was not to really have a hard ballast but I guess using HP air to rid the water pretty much makes it a hard ballast by definition.? Thanks for clarifying Sean !?? I guess I wasn't thinking in terms of larger Swagelok piping since I've just been dealing with the 1/4" tubing -duh .? Sean do you know of any manual HP pumps that are available ???The two methods for?pumping out?hard ballast is?regardless of whether?the tank is inside or out I imagine?.???Thanks again,?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inside ballast Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 09:44:37 -0700 If any pressure vessel inside the personnel compartment (or its associated piping / fittings downstream of a hull shutoff valve) were to fail and release its contents into the compartment, it must not raise the internal pressure of the compartment by more than 1 ATM (demonstrated by calculations). If it does, it must go outside, no exceptions.Also, technically you're supposed to have two independent methods of emptying hard ballast tanks, so for example, pumping them out against the sea pressure with a high pressure pump (powered or manual) and simultaneously venting 1 ATM air into the tank with a check valve as one method, and opening the tank to sea and blowing it out with HP air as the second method.Sean On December 7, 2016 4:59:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm routing my lines to use two scuba tanks as my internal ballast.? I estimate the total weight if they are both filled with water to be around 42 lbs.? (about 570 cu in for each, alum 80's)? .? What kind of water line does everybody use?? I was considering using soft copper but I'm not sure of it's pressure rating.? Or maybe that is not such an issue.? It could see some pressure using the HP tanks in a closed position, which then could be an issue I guess.?? But I would most likely just give a little blast of HP air to push the water out.? Hmmm, wonder if I should have the option to vent outside the sub if I had some air pressure in the ballast tanks?? or I guess I could just simply let it push all the water out and then it would get expelled that way.?? Are there any specific rules like that for inside ballasttanks??Brian Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 10 13:42:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 08:42:44 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better? Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage? Thanks all Rick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look up > your compensating oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, & > calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is about .0007. That > would mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperature > went up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc. > Not a lot given that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster. > Getting the air out could be a bigger problem & it would expand more. > In a declassified military document on compensating I read , it talks > about & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get all > the air out. > Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil to > lubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense. > What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & filling > the motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving > regulator > (PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient. > Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & leaking > then contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if I > can find them. > Regards Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > > Alan, > > I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You > mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there > Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about > lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things? > My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps > around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and > expands. > Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could > completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) > and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a > liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small > space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight > internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people > use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is > also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand > rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far? > So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow > for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to > dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear > hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that > bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well? > > Rick > > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Some compensating thoughts. > On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they > were compensating. > These come with various means of hose attachment. > With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on > a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly > the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's > technicians told me they crimped the hose > that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose > for compensation. > The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal > overpressure, > but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came > up with > the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). > Cliff is using this. > This could be used for air or oil compensation. > The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use > about a teaspoon a day. Based > on that I would have some sort of reservoir. > Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you > have a bearing in a bore > followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing > which may be a sealed type > or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; > so how do you get oil or > ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's > pressure limit. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > > Hi Antoine\Hank. > > Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a furniture > lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for the aft > motor. > > Hank, what do you use for a bladder? > > Thanks > James > > On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > James, > I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works like > a dream. > Hank > > > On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi frank > I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled > compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with > long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. > The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport > platypus drinking bladder > Works well > Regards > Antoine > On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi All > > I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me > thinking. > > I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber > tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. Problem > is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on > the inside. > > So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the > aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its better, but > still awkward. > > I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself. > Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and > filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would be a > rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show filling > and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. > > What does everyone think? > > > ? > ? > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 10 15:03:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 13:03:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: FmcpcDRpfamNPFmcrcN5W8 References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> FmcpcDRpfamNPFmcrcN5W8 Message-ID: You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is why I prefer the bladder embodiment - encased, it is essentially a small low pressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring pressure) if adding some bias pressure. If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal. Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits maximum expansion in operation. You should also avoid having uncompensated void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, which is environmentally irresponsible. If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches. If you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and monitor the entire range of their travel with displacement transducers to give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal to the water. A periodic analysis or observation of the oil in the unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the second seal at constant volume. Sean On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hey Alan, > >Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the >heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. >Based >on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of >expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear >PVC >hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the >motor >would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to >allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled >would >work better? >Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only >the >clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage? > >Thanks all >Rick > >On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Rick, >> Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look up >> your compensating oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, & >> calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is about .0007. That >> would mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperature >> went up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc. >> Not a lot given that you would not require a lot of oil in the >thruster. >> Getting the air out could be a bigger problem & it would expand more. >> In a declassified military document on compensating I read , it talks >> about & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get all >> the air out. >> Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil to >> lubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense. >> What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & filling >> the motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving >> regulator >> (PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above >ambient. >> Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & >leaking >> then contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if I >> can find them. >> Regards Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification >> >> Alan, >> >> I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You >> mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around >there >> Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention >about >> lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things? >> My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that >wraps >> around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and >> expands. >> Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you >could >> completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that >matter) >> and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress >a >> liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the >small >> space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a >slight >> internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, >people >> use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor >(which is >> also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to >expand >> rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far? >> So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to >allow >> for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring >to >> dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or >clear >> hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress >that >> bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as >well? >> >> Rick >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >< >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Some compensating thoughts. >> On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what >they >> were compensating. >> These come with various means of hose attachment. >> With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some >calculations on >> a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly >> the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's >> technicians told me they crimped the hose >> that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the >hose >> for compensation. >> The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi >internal >> overpressure, >> but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh >came >> up with >> the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker >PR364). >> Cliff is using this. >> This could be used for air or oil compensation. >> The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can >use >> about a teaspoon a day. Based >> on that I would have some sort of reservoir. >> Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If >you >> have a bearing in a bore >> followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the >bearing >> which may be a sealed type >> or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 >seals; >> so how do you get oil or >> ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's >> pressure limit. >> Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >> org > >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> org > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification >> >> Hi Antoine\Hank. >> >> Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a >furniture >> lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for the >aft >> motor. >> >> Hank, what do you use for a bladder? >> >> Thanks >> James >> >> On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> org > wrote: >> >> James, >> I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works >like >> a dream. >> Hank >> >> >> On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> >> Hi frank >> I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled >> compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge >with >> long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. >> The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport >> platypus drinking bladder >> Works well >> Regards >> Antoine >> On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via >Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Hi All >> >> I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me >> thinking. >> >> I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the >rubber >> tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. >Problem >> is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe >nipple on >> the inside. >> >> So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the >> aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its >better, but >> still awkward. >> >> I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt >myself. >> Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and >> filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would >be a >> rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show >filling >> and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. >> >> What does everyone think? >> >> >> ? >> ? >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 10 15:41:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:41:15 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sean, Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing capability to accommodate the outward volume.? It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii? Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to > initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted > volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias > pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit > from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can > demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive > vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or > cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a > relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. > You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious > reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural > rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is > why I prefer the bladder embodiment - encased, it is essentially a sm! all > low pressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea if > compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring pressure) > if adding some bias pressure. > > If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it > resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the > overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to > resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default > configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. > If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the > compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure > drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed > to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal. > > Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide > compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure > is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits > maximum expansion in operation. You should also avoid having uncompensated > void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that > pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor > protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, > will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter > seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, > which is environmentally irresponsible. > > If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure > in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals > (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past > the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal > wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. > By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal > condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a > serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would > monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches. If > you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and > monitor the entire range of their travel with displacement transducers to > give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both > bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal > to the water. A periodic analysis ! or observation of the oil in the > unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the > second seal at constant volume. > > Sean > > > On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hey Alan, >> >> Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the >> heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based >> on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of >> expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC >> hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor >> would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to >> allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would >> work better? >> Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the >> clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage? >> >> Thanks all >> Rick >> >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Rick, >>> Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look up >>> your compensating oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, & >>> calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007. That >>> would mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperature >>> went up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc. >>> Not a lot given that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster. >>> Getting the air out could be a bigger problem & it would expand more. >>> In a declassified military document on compensating I read , it talks >>> about & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get all >>> the air out. >>> Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil to >>> lubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense. >>> What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & filling >>> the motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving >>> regulator >>> (PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient. >>> Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & leaking >>> then contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if I >>> can find them. >>> Regards Alan >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification >>> >>> Alan, >>> >>> I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You >>> mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there >>> Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about >>> lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things? >>> My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that >>> wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and >>> expands. >>> Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could >>> completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) >>> and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a >>> liquid, t! here would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the >>> small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a >>> slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, >>> people use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor >>> (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go >>> to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so >>> far? >>> So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow >>> for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to >>> dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear >>> hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that >>> bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well? >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Some compensating thoughts. >>> On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they >>> were compensating. >>> These come with various means of hose attachment. >>> With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations >>> on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly >>> the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's >>> technicians told me they crimped the hose >>> that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose >>> for compensation. >>> The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal >>> overpressure, >>> but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh >>> came up with >>> the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker >>> PR364). Cliff is using this. >>> This could be used for air or oil compensation. >>> The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use >>> about a teaspoon a day. Based >>> on that I would have some sort of reservoir. >>> Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If >>> you have a bearing in a bore >>> followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing >>> which may be a sealed type >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 10 21:35:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 18:35:48 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inside ballast Message-ID: <20161210183548.E7F35C54@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 10 22:45:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 03:45:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <149235740.595754.1481427924888@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, I think the problem with the tube is not so much that it won't allow for expansion, but that it won't collapse under pressure before water can leak past your seal. ?? Karl Stanley told me he air compensated his thrusters on Idabel (that goes to 2000ft) with a first stage regulator with spring removed to give ambient pressure. When I asked him how the expanding air escaped on ascent he told me it just blew out past the seal. ?? I wouldn't do that as it could destroy the seal, but it demonstrates what you can get away with. Vance pulled Karl's motors apart & said there was a bit of water in them, but that it could have been from condensation of water from the several atmospheres of air that would be compressed in there. ?? Alec used the tube wrap system on Snoopy as did other Psubbers. I believe he did get water in, in the latter stages. ?? There is a gap between the two seals in the Minn kota 101 & one of them will fail if you take it deep enough. So you will end up with either oil or water in the gap. If you regard the outer seal as sacrificial & just there to stop sand & crud damaging the inner seal, then I guess it's not a big deal. Vance has said he regards the 101 as a disposable unit. I think the cheapest purpose built thrusters start around $4000- ?? Best as Sean says, to have an expansion / compensation bag. Better to add some pressure to it so that oil is more likely to flow out than water flow in. Microscopic spiral lines on the shaft from machining can pump water in or oil out. ?? I have built an oil filled brushless thruster that I am pool testing at the moment. A bit of work to go on it yet, but it's looking promising. ?? Snow in Hawaii??? Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, &calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is about .0007. Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a bigger problem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & leakingthen contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if Ican find them.Regards Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things??My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and expands.Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far?So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well?? Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some compensating thoughts. On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they were compensating. These come with various means of hose attachment. ?? With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's technicians told me they crimped the hose that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose for compensation. ?? The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal overpressure, but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came up with the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). Cliff is using this. This could be used for air or oil compensation. ?? The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use about a teaspoon a day. Based on that I would have some sort of reservoir. ?? Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you have a bearing in a bore followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing which may be a sealed type or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; so how do you get oil or ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's pressure limit. Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aft motor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 11 13:12:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 08:12:35 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <149235740.595754.1481427924888@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> <149235740.595754.1481427924888@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, OK, then it sounds like a semi filled flexible oil bladder is the best way to go. It is more unsightly and needs to be secured somehow so it doesn't flop around while under-weigh compared to the coiled tube idea but bottom line is what works the best. I didn't realize that there were two 0 rings in the Minn-Kota motors until just recently when this thread started and I agree that that void should be filled with liquid so will look into the feasibility of that. We have two mountains here on the big Island that top out just under 14,000 feet and they usually get snow on the tops every year. There is one on Maui as well but usually doesn't get as much. It's funny to see some people drive up there and fill their pick ups with it and drive back down to their house at sea level and shovel it into there yard for the day! Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 5:45 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > I think the problem with the tube is not so much that it won't allow for > expansion, > but that it won't collapse under pressure before water can leak past your > seal. > Karl Stanley told me he air compensated his thrusters on Idabel (that > goes to 2000ft) > with a first stage regulator with spring removed to give ambient pressure. > When I asked > him how the expanding air escaped on ascent he told me it just blew out > past the seal. > I wouldn't do that as it could destroy the seal, but it demonstrates > what you can > get away with. Vance pulled Karl's motors apart & said there was a bit of > water in them, > but that it could have been from condensation of water from the several > atmospheres of air > that would be compressed in there. > Alec used the tube wrap system on Snoopy as did other Psubbers. I > believe he > did get water in, in the latter stages. > There is a gap between the two seals in the Minn kota 101 & one of them > will fail > if you take it deep enough. So you will end up with either oil or water in > the gap. > If you regard the outer seal as sacrificial & just there to stop sand & > crud damaging > the inner seal, then I guess it's not a big deal. Vance has said he > regards the 101 > as a disposable unit. I think the cheapest purpose built thrusters start > around $4000- > Best as Sean says, to have an expansion / compensation bag. Better to > add some > pressure to it so that oil is more likely to flow out than water flow in. > Microscopic > spiral lines on the shaft from machining can pump water in or oil out. > I have built an oil filled brushless thruster that I am pool testing at > the moment. > A bit of work to go on it yet, but it's looking promising. > Snow in Hawaii??? > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, December 11, 2016 7:42 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > > Hey Alan, > > Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the > heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based > on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of > expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC > hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor > would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to > allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would > work better? > Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the > clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage? > > Thanks all > Rick > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look up > your compensating oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, & > calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is about .0007. That > would mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperature > went up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc. > Not a lot given that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster. > Getting the air out could be a bigger problem & it would expand more. > In a declassified military document on compensating I read , it talks > about & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get all > the air out. > Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil to > lubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense. > What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & filling > the motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving > regulator > (PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient. > Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & leaking > then contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if I > can find them. > Regards Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > > Alan, > > I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You > mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there > Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about > lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things? > My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps > around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and > expands. > Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could > completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) > and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a > liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small > space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight > internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people > use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is > also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand > rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far? > So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow > for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to > dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear > hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that > bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well? > > Rick > > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Some compensating thoughts. > On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they > were compensating. > These come with various means of hose attachment. > With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on > a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly > the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's > technicians told me they crimped the hose > that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose > for compensation. > The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal > overpressure, > but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came > up with > the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). > Cliff is using this. > This could be used for air or oil compensation. > The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use > about a teaspoon a day. Based > on that I would have some sort of reservoir. > Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you > have a bearing in a bore > followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing > which may be a sealed type > or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; > so how do you get oil or > ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's > pressure limit. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > > Hi Antoine\Hank. > > Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a furniture > lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for the aft > motor. > > Hank, what do you use for a bladder? > > Thanks > James > > On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > James, > I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works like > a dream. > Hank > > > On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi frank > I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled > compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with > long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. > The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport > platypus drinking bladder > Works well > Regards > Antoine > On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi All > > I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me > thinking. > > I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber > tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. Problem > is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on > the inside. > > So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the > aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its better, but > still awkward. > > I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself. > Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and > filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would be a > rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show filling > and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work. > > What does everyone think? > > > ? > ? > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 11 16:46:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 21:46:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> <149235740.595754.1481427924888@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99447612.838270.1481492808416@mail.yahoo.com> Rick & all,I have my thruster running in a swimming pool at the moment.I have it oil filled with the oil continuing up the wiring tube.I made a note of the oil level in the tube before running, then notedthe level had risen by a few inches while the motor was running.Obviously the centrifugal force of the motor is?pushing the oil out.?? This is probably not a problem at depth? where the water pressureacting on the bladder would? stop that happening. But while running on thesurface it would keep oil away from bearings & the rotary shaft seal.?? Although I am using lip seals at the moment, I will be using mechanicalseals in the next version,? & it will be important to keep oil on the sealfaces. This makes a good case for a compensator with over-pressure,to counteract this.Cheers Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, OK, then it sounds like a semi filled flexible oil bladder is the best way to go. It is more unsightly and needs to be secured somehow so it doesn't flop around while under-weigh compared to the coiled tube idea but bottom line is what works the best. I didn't realize that there were two 0 rings in the Minn-Kota motors until just recently when this thread started and I agree that that void should be filled with liquid so will look into the feasibility of that.?We have two mountains here on the big Island that top out just under 14,000 feet and they usually get snow on the tops every year. There is one on Maui as well but usually doesn't get as much. It's funny to see some people drive up there and fill their pick ups with it and drive back down to their house at sea level and shovel it into there yard for the day! Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 5:45 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I think the problem with the tube is not so much that it won't allow for expansion, but that it won't collapse under pressure before water can leak past your seal. ?? Karl Stanley told me he air compensated his thrusters on Idabel (that goes to 2000ft) with a first stage regulator with spring removed to give ambient pressure. When I asked him how the expanding air escaped on ascent he told me it just blew out past the seal. ?? I wouldn't do that as it could destroy the seal, but it demonstrates what you can get away with. Vance pulled Karl's motors apart & said there was a bit of water in them, but that it could have been from condensation of water from the several atmospheres of air that would be compressed in there. ?? Alec used the tube wrap system on Snoopy as did other Psubbers. I believe he did get water in, in the latter stages. ?? There is a gap between the two seals in the Minn kota 101 & one of them will fail if you take it deep enough. So you will end up with either oil or water in the gap. If you regard the outer seal as sacrificial & just there to stop sand & crud damaging the inner seal, then I guess it's not a big deal. Vance has said he regards the 101 as a disposable unit. I think the cheapest purpose built thrusters start around $4000- ?? Best as Sean says, to have an expansion / compensation bag. Better to add some pressure to it so that oil is more likely to flow out than water flow in. Microscopic spiral lines on the shaft from machining can pump water in or oil out. ?? I have built an oil filled brushless thruster that I am pool testing at the moment. A bit of work to go on it yet, but it's looking promising. ?? Snow in Hawaii??? Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, &calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is about .0007. Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a bigger problem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & leakingthen contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if Ican find them.Regards Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things??My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and expands.Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far?So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well?? Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some compensating thoughts. On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they were compensating. These come with various means of hose attachment. ?? With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's technicians told me they crimped the hose that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose for compensation. ?? The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal overpressure, but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came up with the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). Cliff is using this. This could be used for air or oil compensation. ?? The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use about a teaspoon a day. Based on that I would have some sort of reservoir. ?? Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you have a bearing in a bore followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing which may be a sealed type or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; so how do you get oil or ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's pressure limit. Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aft motor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 11 18:46:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 23:46:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <99447612.838270.1481492808416@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> <149235740.595754.1481427924888@mail.yahoo.com> <99447612.838270.1481492808416@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <693101285.814414.1481500015379@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Are you checking temperature of the oil in the motor. ?I think also if your worried about your bearings running out of oil, then there is an argument to use a hose for compensating rather than a bladder. ?The hose would restrict oil leaving the motor housing. ? I have a feeling in the cold lakes of BC there is a negligible amount of oil expansion due to heat. ?I still like the bladder as the better option.Hank On Sunday, December 11, 2016 2:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick & all,I have my thruster running in a swimming pool at the moment.I have it oil filled with the oil continuing up the wiring tube.I made a note of the oil level in the tube before running, then notedthe level had risen by a few inches while the motor was running.Obviously the centrifugal force of the motor is?pushing the oil out.?? This is probably not a problem at depth? where the water pressureacting on the bladder would? stop that happening. But while running on thesurface it would keep oil away from bearings & the rotary shaft seal.?? Although I am using lip seals at the moment, I will be using mechanicalseals in the next version,? & it will be important to keep oil on the sealfaces. This makes a good case for a compensator with over-pressure,to counteract this.Cheers Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, OK, then it sounds like a semi filled flexible oil bladder is the best way to go. It is more unsightly and needs to be secured somehow so it doesn't flop around while under-weigh compared to the coiled tube idea but bottom line is what works the best. I didn't realize that there were two 0 rings in the Minn-Kota motors until just recently when this thread started and I agree that that void should be filled with liquid so will look into the feasibility of that.?We have two mountains here on the big Island that top out just under 14,000 feet and they usually get snow on the tops every year. There is one on Maui as well but usually doesn't get as much. It's funny to see some people drive up there and fill their pick ups with it and drive back down to their house at sea level and shovel it into there yard for the day! Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 5:45 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I think the problem with the tube is not so much that it won't allow for expansion, but that it won't collapse under pressure before water can leak past your seal. ?? Karl Stanley told me he air compensated his thrusters on Idabel (that goes to 2000ft) with a first stage regulator with spring removed to give ambient pressure. When I asked him how the expanding air escaped on ascent he told me it just blew out past the seal. ?? I wouldn't do that as it could destroy the seal, but it demonstrates what you can get away with. Vance pulled Karl's motors apart & said there was a bit of water in them, but that it could have been from condensation of water from the several atmospheres of air that would be compressed in there. ?? Alec used the tube wrap system on Snoopy as did other Psubbers. I believe he did get water in, in the latter stages. ?? There is a gap between the two seals in the Minn kota 101 & one of them will fail if you take it deep enough. So you will end up with either oil or water in the gap. If you regard the outer seal as sacrificial & just there to stop sand & crud damaging the inner seal, then I guess it's not a big deal. Vance has said he regards the 101 as a disposable unit. I think the cheapest purpose built thrusters start around $4000- ?? Best as Sean says, to have an expansion / compensation bag. Better to add some pressure to it so that oil is more likely to flow out than water flow in. Microscopic spiral lines on the shaft from machining can pump water in or oil out. ?? I have built an oil filled brushless thruster that I am pool testing at the moment. A bit of work to go on it yet, but it's looking promising. ?? Snow in Hawaii??? Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, &calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is about .0007. Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a bigger problem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & leakingthen contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if Ican find them.Regards Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things??My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and expands.Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far?So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well?? Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some compensating thoughts. On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they were compensating. These come with various means of hose attachment. ?? With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's technicians told me they crimped the hose that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose for compensation. ?? The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal overpressure, but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came up with the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). Cliff is using this. This could be used for air or oil compensation. ?? The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use about a teaspoon a day. Based on that I would have some sort of reservoir. ?? Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you have a bearing in a bore followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing which may be a sealed type or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; so how do you get oil or ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's pressure limit. Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aft motor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 00:33:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 05:33:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <693101285.814414.1481500015379@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> <149235740.595754.1481427924888@mail.yahoo.com> <99447612.838270.1481492808416@mail.yahoo.com> <693101285.814414.1481500015379@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <863996484.1037151.1481520836897@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, I ran it for 7 hours today, & the outside of the thruster was not hot. Although I have suspicions that either the bearings or lip seals are getting a bit hot. When I stopped & started it, it was starting roughly at times. If I left it a minute it would start smoothly. It was like something was seizing slightly. ?? Yes, I think if the oil was kept in with the hose wrap it wouldn't have happened. I guess that is one positive for it! ?? My motor comes with a heat sensor on it's hall sensor board, but haven't got the electronics to read it yet. ?? The next thruster version will have the mechanical seal, & I will pressurize the oil. My little motors need the oil for cooling as they are a lot more heat sensitive than the Minn Kotta's that are built big to run in air & withstand heat. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,Are you checking temperature of the oil in the motor. ?I think also if your worried about your bearings running out of oil, then there is an argument to use a hose for compensating rather than a bladder. ?The hose would restrict oil leaving the motor housing. ? I have a feeling in the cold lakes of BC there is a negligible amount of oil expansion due to heat. ?I still like the bladder as the better option.Hank On Sunday, December 11, 2016 2:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick & all,I have my thruster running in a swimming pool at the moment.I have it oil filled with the oil continuing up the wiring tube.I made a note of the oil level in the tube before running, then notedthe level had risen by a few inches while the motor was running.Obviously the centrifugal force of the motor is?pushing the oil out.?? This is probably not a problem at depth? where the water pressureacting on the bladder would? stop that happening. But while running on thesurface it would keep oil away from bearings & the rotary shaft seal.?? Although I am using lip seals at the moment, I will be using mechanicalseals in the next version,? & it will be important to keep oil on the sealfaces. This makes a good case for a compensator with over-pressure,to counteract this.Cheers Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, OK, then it sounds like a semi filled flexible oil bladder is the best way to go. It is more unsightly and needs to be secured somehow so it doesn't flop around while under-weigh compared to the coiled tube idea but bottom line is what works the best. I didn't realize that there were two 0 rings in the Minn-Kota motors until just recently when this thread started and I agree that that void should be filled with liquid so will look into the feasibility of that.?We have two mountains here on the big Island that top out just under 14,000 feet and they usually get snow on the tops every year. There is one on Maui as well but usually doesn't get as much. It's funny to see some people drive up there and fill their pick ups with it and drive back down to their house at sea level and shovel it into there yard for the day! Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 5:45 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I think the problem with the tube is not so much that it won't allow for expansion, but that it won't collapse under pressure before water can leak past your seal. ?? Karl Stanley told me he air compensated his thrusters on Idabel (that goes to 2000ft) with a first stage regulator with spring removed to give ambient pressure. When I asked him how the expanding air escaped on ascent he told me it just blew out past the seal. ?? I wouldn't do that as it could destroy the seal, but it demonstrates what you can get away with. Vance pulled Karl's motors apart & said there was a bit of water in them, but that it could have been from condensation of water from the several atmospheres of air that would be compressed in there. ?? Alec used the tube wrap system on Snoopy as did other Psubbers. I believe he did get water in, in the latter stages. ?? There is a gap between the two seals in the Minn kota 101 & one of them will fail if you take it deep enough. So you will end up with either oil or water in the gap. If you regard the outer seal as sacrificial & just there to stop sand & crud damaging the inner seal, then I guess it's not a big deal. Vance has said he regards the 101 as a disposable unit. I think the cheapest purpose built thrusters start around $4000- ?? Best as Sean says, to have an expansion / compensation bag. Better to add some pressure to it so that oil is more likely to flow out than water flow in. Microscopic spiral lines on the shaft from machining can pump water in or oil out. ?? I have built an oil filled brushless thruster that I am pool testing at the moment. A bit of work to go on it yet, but it's looking promising. ?? Snow in Hawaii??? Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, &calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is about .0007. Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a bigger problem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & leakingthen contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if Ican find them.Regards Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things??My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and expands.Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far?So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well?? Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some compensating thoughts. On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they were compensating. These come with various means of hose attachment. ?? With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's technicians told me they crimped the hose that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose for compensation. ?? The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal overpressure, but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came up with the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). Cliff is using this. This could be used for air or oil compensation. ?? The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use about a teaspoon a day. Based on that I would have some sort of reservoir. ?? Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you have a bearing in a bore followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing which may be a sealed type or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; so how do you get oil or ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's pressure limit. Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aft motor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 08:22:29 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 13:22:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <863996484.1037151.1481520836897@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> <149235740.595754.1481427924888@mail.yahoo.com> <99447612.838270.1481492808416@mail.yahoo.com> <693101285.814414.1481500015379@mail.yahoo.com> <863996484.1037151.1481520836897@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <103983544.1075969.1481548949699@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I doubt it is the bearing running out of oil that will make it start?weird. ?I assume you have open bearings, they are pretty tough. ?Do you have the prop on the motor for this test? ?Id does sound like something is getting hot and needs to cool a bit. ?You may have to pull the motor apart and look for rub marks. ?Is the motor still quiet for the whole test? ?When you stop and start it, does the oil in the wire tube jump? ? could the wires be under sized given the motor is oil filled now?Hmm this will be fun to solveHank On Sunday, December 11, 2016 10:34 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I ran it for 7 hours today, & the outside of the thruster was not hot. Although I have suspicions that either the bearings or lip seals are getting a bit hot. When I stopped & started it, it was starting roughly at times. If I left it a minute it would start smoothly. It was like something was seizing slightly. ?? Yes, I think if the oil was kept in with the hose wrap it wouldn't have happened. I guess that is one positive for it! ?? My motor comes with a heat sensor on it's hall sensor board, but haven't got the electronics to read it yet. ?? The next thruster version will have the mechanical seal, & I will pressurize the oil. My little motors need the oil for cooling as they are a lot more heat sensitive than the Minn Kotta's that are built big to run in air & withstand heat. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,Are you checking temperature of the oil in the motor. ?I think also if your worried about your bearings running out of oil, then there is an argument to use a hose for compensating rather than a bladder. ?The hose would restrict oil leaving the motor housing. ? I have a feeling in the cold lakes of BC there is a negligible amount of oil expansion due to heat. ?I still like the bladder as the better option.Hank On Sunday, December 11, 2016 2:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick & all,I have my thruster running in a swimming pool at the moment.I have it oil filled with the oil continuing up the wiring tube.I made a note of the oil level in the tube before running, then notedthe level had risen by a few inches while the motor was running.Obviously the centrifugal force of the motor is?pushing the oil out.?? This is probably not a problem at depth? where the water pressureacting on the bladder would? stop that happening. But while running on thesurface it would keep oil away from bearings & the rotary shaft seal.?? Although I am using lip seals at the moment, I will be using mechanicalseals in the next version,? & it will be important to keep oil on the sealfaces. This makes a good case for a compensator with over-pressure,to counteract this.Cheers Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, OK, then it sounds like a semi filled flexible oil bladder is the best way to go. It is more unsightly and needs to be secured somehow so it doesn't flop around while under-weigh compared to the coiled tube idea but bottom line is what works the best. I didn't realize that there were two 0 rings in the Minn-Kota motors until just recently when this thread started and I agree that that void should be filled with liquid so will look into the feasibility of that.?We have two mountains here on the big Island that top out just under 14,000 feet and they usually get snow on the tops every year. There is one on Maui as well but usually doesn't get as much. It's funny to see some people drive up there and fill their pick ups with it and drive back down to their house at sea level and shovel it into there yard for the day! Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 5:45 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I think the problem with the tube is not so much that it won't allow for expansion, but that it won't collapse under pressure before water can leak past your seal. ?? Karl Stanley told me he air compensated his thrusters on Idabel (that goes to 2000ft) with a first stage regulator with spring removed to give ambient pressure. When I asked him how the expanding air escaped on ascent he told me it just blew out past the seal. ?? I wouldn't do that as it could destroy the seal, but it demonstrates what you can get away with. Vance pulled Karl's motors apart & said there was a bit of water in them, but that it could have been from condensation of water from the several atmospheres of air that would be compressed in there. ?? Alec used the tube wrap system on Snoopy as did other Psubbers. I believe he did get water in, in the latter stages. ?? There is a gap between the two seals in the Minn kota 101 & one of them will fail if you take it deep enough. So you will end up with either oil or water in the gap. If you regard the outer seal as sacrificial & just there to stop sand & crud damaging the inner seal, then I guess it's not a big deal. Vance has said he regards the 101 as a disposable unit. I think the cheapest purpose built thrusters start around $4000- ?? Best as Sean says, to have an expansion / compensation bag. Better to add some pressure to it so that oil is more likely to flow out than water flow in. Microscopic spiral lines on the shaft from machining can pump water in or oil out. ?? I have built an oil filled brushless thruster that I am pool testing at the moment. A bit of work to go on it yet, but it's looking promising. ?? Snow in Hawaii??? Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, &calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is about .0007. Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a bigger problem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & leakingthen contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if Ican find them.Regards Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things??My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and expands.Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far?So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well?? Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some compensating thoughts. On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they were compensating. These come with various means of hose attachment. ?? With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's technicians told me they crimped the hose that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose for compensation. ?? The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal overpressure, but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came up with the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). Cliff is using this. This could be used for air or oil compensation. ?? The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use about a teaspoon a day. Based on that I would have some sort of reservoir. ?? Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you have a bearing in a bore followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing which may be a sealed type or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; so how do you get oil or ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's pressure limit. Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aft motor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 11:18:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 09:18:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: FoTPcfawgaVASFoTQcUjkE References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> FoTPcfawgaVASFoTQcUjkE Message-ID: <4adb3ac4-24d7-4555-b6b8-eedefe28fc50@email.android.com> The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal(s) will consume oil. Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil. Using a hose is fine, provided that: 1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), so that you have compensation capacity in both directions. Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need to increase the tube volume until you don't. The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it. Sean On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean, > >Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds >like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best >way >to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving >would >be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would >allow >for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing >capability to accommodate the outward volume.? >It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii? > >Rick > > > > >On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it >to >> initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its >undistorted >> volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it >has bias >> pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down >a bit >> from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can >> demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an >expensive >> vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, >or >> cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a >> relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for >compensation. >> You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for >obvious >> reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural >> rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which >is >> why I prefer the bladder embodiment - encased, it is essentially a >sm! all >> low pressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to >sea if >> compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring >pressure) >> if adding some bias pressure. >> >> If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it >> resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), >the >> overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal >to >> resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the >default >> configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal >space. >> If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the >> compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil >pressure >> drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been >allowed >> to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal. >> >> Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide >> compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation >pressure >> is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor >hits >> maximum expansion in operation. You should also avoid having >uncompensated >> void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change >that >> pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a >motor >> protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased >pressure, >> will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the >inter >> seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the >water, >> which is environmentally irresponsible. >> >> If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased >pressure >> in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals >> (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking >past >> the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that >seal >> wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation >bladder. >> By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal >> condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would >indicate a >> serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would >> monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches. >If >> you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders >and >> monitor the entire range of their travel with displacement >transducers to >> give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both >> bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the >second seal >> to the water. A periodic analysis ! or observation of the oil in the >> unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at >the >> second seal at constant volume. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hey Alan, >>> >>> Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the >>> heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. >Based >>> on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of >>> expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the >clear PVC >>> hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on >the motor >>> would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough >to >>> allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled >would >>> work better? >>> Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only >the >>> clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage? >>> >>> Thanks all >>> Rick >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >< >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Rick, >>>> Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look up >>>> your compensating oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, & >>>> calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007. That >>>> would mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the >temperature >>>> went up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc. >>>> Not a lot given that you would not require a lot of oil in the >thruster. >>>> Getting the air out could be a bigger problem & it would expand >more. >>>> In a declassified military document on compensating I read , it >talks >>>> about & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get all >>>> the air out. >>>> Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil >to >>>> lubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense. >>>> What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & filling >>>> the motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a >relieving >>>> regulator >>>> (PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above >ambient. >>>> Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & >leaking >>>> then contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if I >>>> can find them. >>>> Regards Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification >>>> >>>> Alan, >>>> >>>> I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. >You >>>> mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap >around there >>>> Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also >mention about >>>> lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things? >>>> My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing >that >>>> wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from >use and >>>> expands. >>>> Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you >could >>>> completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that >matter) >>>> and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't >compress a >>>> liquid, t! here would be no water ingress to the motor (except for >the >>>> small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you >add a >>>> slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from >use, >>>> people use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the >motor >>>> (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the >oil to go >>>> to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I >correct so >>>> far? >>>> So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to >allow >>>> for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 >ring to >>>> dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or >clear >>>> hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to >compress that >>>> bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring >as well? >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via >Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Some compensating thoughts. >>>> On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what >they >>>> were compensating. >>>> These come with various means of hose attachment. >>>> With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some >calculations >>>> on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly >>>> the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's >>>> technicians told me they crimped the hose >>>> that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the >hose >>>> for compensation. >>>> The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi >internal >>>> overpressure, >>>> but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. >Hugh >>>> came up with >>>> the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker >>>> PR364). Cliff is using this. >>>> This could be used for air or oil compensation. >>>> The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can >use >>>> about a teaspoon a day. Based >>>> on that I would have some sort of reservoir. >>>> Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. >If >>>> you have a bearing in a bore >>>> followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the >bearing >>>> which may be a sealed type >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 13:25:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 08:25:33 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <4adb3ac4-24d7-4555-b6b8-eedefe28fc50@email.android.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> <4adb3ac4-24d7-4555-b6b8-eedefe28fc50@email.android.com> Message-ID: Hi Sean, I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory seals? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would be nice to hear from others who have only used the hose method without a bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. Thanks Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, > shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume > oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of > the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and > consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the > system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal(s) will consume oil. > Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil. > > Using a hose is fine, provided that: > > 1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and > 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), > so that you have compensation capacity in both directions. > > Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into > play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need > to increase the tube volume until you don't. > > The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't > need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air > expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the > oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your > seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is > helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only > crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it. > > Sean > > > On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds >> like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way >> to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would >> be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow >> for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing >> capability to accommodate the outward volume.? >> It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to >>> initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted >>> volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias >>> pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit >>> from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can >>> demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive >>> vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or >>> cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a >>> relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. >>> You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious >>> reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural >>> rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is >>> why I prefer the bladder embodiment - encas! ed, it is essentially a sm! >>> all low pressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea >>> if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring >>> pressure) if adding some bias pressure. >>> >>> If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it >>> resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the >>> overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to >>> resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default >>> configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. >>> If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the >>> compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure >>> drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed >>> to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal. >>> >>> Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide >>> compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure >>> is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits >>> maximum expansion in operation. You should also avoid having uncompensated >>> void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that >>> pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor >>> protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, >>> will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter >>> seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, >>> which is environmentally irresponsible. >>> >>> If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased >>> pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals >>> (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past >>> the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal >>> wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. >>> By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal >>> condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a >>> serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would >>> monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches. If >>> you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and >>> monitor the entire range of their travel with displacement transducers to >>> give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both >>> bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal >>> to the water. A periodic analysis ! or observation of the oil in the >>> unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the >>> second seal at constant volume. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hey Alan, >>>> >>>> Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the >>>> heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based >>>> on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of >>>> expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC >>>> hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor >>>> would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to >>>> allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would >>>> work better? >>>> Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only >>>> the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage? >>>> >>>> Thanks all >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Rick, >>>>> Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look up >>>>> your compensating oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, & >>>>> calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007. That >>>>> would mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperature >>>>> went up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc. >>>>> Not a lot given that you would not require a lot of oil in the >>>>> thruster. >>>>> Getting the air out could be a bigger problem & it would expand more. >>>>> In a declassified military document on compensating I read , it talks >>>>> about & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get all >>>>> the air out. >>>>> Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil to >>>>> lubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense. >>>>> What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & filling >>>>> the motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving >>>>> regulator >>>>> (PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above >>>>> ambient. >>>>> Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oil expanding & >>>>> leaking >>>>> then contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if I >>>>> can find them. >>>>> Regards Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification >>>>> >>>>> Alan, >>>>> >>>>> I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You >>>>> mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there >>>>> Minn-Kota motors! and mention about collapse pressure and also mention >>>>> about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking abou >>>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 13:42:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 11:42:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: GVJYcoPRhAOgbGVJZcHNuN References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> <4adb3ac4-24d7-4555-b6b8-eedefe28fc50@email.android.com> GVJYcoPRhAOgbGVJZcHNuN Message-ID: <60e1a4f9-37d4-4c59-a23d-0cdff7ec6558@email.android.com> Collapse the hose. Draw a vacuum on it so that it has no internal volume, then partially fill it as much as required. Sean On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean, > >I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than >a >bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have >to >figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and >you >said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that >though >all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume >transfer >after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just >throwing >out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and >95% >outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based >on >that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to >give >in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand >enough >to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the >factory >seals? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. >Would >be nice to hear from others who have only used the hose method without >a >bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. > >Thanks > >Rick > >On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the >motor, >> shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will >consume >> oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and >deflection of >> the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, >and >> consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in >the >> system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal(s) will consume >oil. >> Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil. >> >> Using a hose is fine, provided that: >> >> 1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, >and >> 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre >collapsed), >> so that you have compensation capacity in both directions. >> >> Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into >> play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you >need >> to increase the tube volume until you don't. >> >> The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then >don't >> need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that >air >> expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before >doing the >> oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability >of your >> seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure >is >> helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need >only >> crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via >Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it >sounds >>> like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the >best way >>> to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after >diving would >>> be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea >would allow >>> for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall >flexing >>> capability to accommodate the outward volume.? >>> It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping >it to >>>> initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its >undistorted >>>> volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it >has bias >>>> pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure >down a bit >>>> from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You >can >>>> demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an >expensive >>>> vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large >syringe, or >>>> cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with >a >>>> relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for >compensation. >>>> You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for >obvious >>>> reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no >structural >>>> rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. >Which is >>>> why I prefer the bladder embodiment - encas! ed, it is essentially >a sm! >>>> all low pressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side >open to sea >>>> if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring >>>> pressure) if adding some bias pressure. >>>> >>>> If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it >>>> resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is >"flexible"), the >>>> overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first >seal to >>>> resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the >default >>>> configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter >seal space. >>>> If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the >>>> compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil >pressure >>>> drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been >allowed >>>> to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal. >>>> >>>> Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide >>>> compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation >pressure >>>> is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor >hits >>>> maximum expansion in operation. You should also avoid having >uncompensated >>>> void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change >that >>>> pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a >motor >>>> protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased >pressure, >>>> will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the >inter >>>> seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the >water, >>>> which is environmentally irresponsible. >>>> >>>> If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased >>>> pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the >seals >>>> (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking >past >>>> the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that >seal >>>> wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation >bladder. >>>> By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal >>>> condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would >indicate a >>>> serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as >would >>>> monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit >switches. If >>>> you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders >and >>>> monitor the entire range of their travel with displacement >transducers to >>>> give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of >both >>>> bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the >second seal >>>> to the water. A periodic analysis ! or observation of the oil in >the >>>> unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water >at the >>>> second seal at constant volume. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hey Alan, >>>>> >>>>> Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the >>>>> heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to >comprehend. Based >>>>> on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of >>>>> expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the >clear PVC >>>>> hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on >the motor >>>>> would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand >enough to >>>>> allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half >filled would >>>>> work better? >>>>> Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used >only >>>>> the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks all >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via >Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Rick, >>>>>> Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look up >>>>>> your compensating oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, & >>>>>> calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007. That >>>>>> would mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the >temperature >>>>>> went up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc. >>>>>> Not a lot given that you would not require a lot of oil in the >>>>>> thruster. >>>>>> Getting the air out could be a bigger problem & it would expand >more. >>>>>> In a declassified military document on compensating I read , it >talks >>>>>> about & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get >all >>>>>> the air out. >>>>>> Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil >to >>>>>> lubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense. >>>>>> What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & filling >>>>>> the motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a >relieving >>>>>> regulator >>>>>> (PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above >>>>>> ambient. >>>>>> Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oil expanding & >>>>>> leaking >>>>>> then contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if >I >>>>>> can find them. >>>>>> Regards Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification >>>>>> >>>>>> Alan, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. >You >>>>>> mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap >around there >>>>>> Minn-Kota motors! and mention about collapse pressure and also >mention >>>>>> about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking abou >>>>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 13:47:45 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 18:47:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> <4adb3ac4-24d7-4555-b6b8-eedefe28fc50@email.android.com> Message-ID: <182008443.1293192.1481568465502@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,All chatter aside, if you want a total leak free motor ?then you must go air compensated. ?I have not seen a leak free oil compensated Minn Kota. ?The reality is, who cares if a bit of water gets in. ?Change the oil often and call it the cost of doing?business. ?In your case, with rotating thrusters, you have little choice but to go with oil compensated motors with hose compensators. ?Just keep an eye on them, drain them often. ?Build it so the oil change is fast and easy with the motor on the sub.These motors are cheap and reliable, we are over thinking this! ;-) ?my motors are 20 years old.Hank On Monday, December 12, 2016 11:25 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory seals?? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would be nice to hear from others who have only used the hose method without a bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. Thanks? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal(s) will consume oil. Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil.Using a hose is fine, provided that:1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), so that you have compensation capacity in both directions.Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need to increase the tube volume until you don't.The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it.Sean On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing capability to accommodate the outward volume.?It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is why I prefer the bladder embodiment -? encas! ed, itis essentially a sm! all lowpressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring pressure) if adding some bias pressure.If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal.Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits maximum expansion in operation.? You should also avoid having uncompensated void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, which is environmentally irresponsible.If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches.? If you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and monitor the entire range of their travel with? displacement transducers to give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal to the water. A periodic analysis ! orobservation of the oil in the unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the second seal at constant volume.Sean On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion,&calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007.Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a biggerproblem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oilexpanding & leakingthen contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if Ican find them.Regards Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there Minn-Kota motors! andmention about collapse pressure and also mention about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking abou ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 14:01:40 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: GVJYcoPRhAOgbGVJZcHNuN References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> <4adb3ac4-24d7-4555-b6b8-eedefe28fc50@email.android.com> GVJYcoPRhAOgbGVJZcHNuN Message-ID: <254ad7a7-6d49-4ad8-accf-904637102cc3@email.android.com> If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure. Sean On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean, > >I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than >a >bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have >to >figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and >you >said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that >though >all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume >transfer >after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just >throwing >out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and >95% >outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based >on >that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to >give >in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand >enough >to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the >factory >seals? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. >Would >be nice to hear from others who have only used the hose method without >a >bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. > >Thanks > >Rick > >On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the >motor, >> shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will >consume >> oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and >deflection of >> the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, >and >> consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in >the >> system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal(s) will consume >oil. >> Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil. >> >> Using a hose is fine, provided that: >> >> 1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, >and >> 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre >collapsed), >> so that you have compensation capacity in both directions. >> >> Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into >> play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you >need >> to increase the tube volume until you don't. >> >> The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then >don't >> need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that >air >> expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before >doing the >> oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability >of your >> seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure >is >> helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need >only >> crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via >Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it >sounds >>> like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the >best way >>> to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after >diving would >>> be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea >would allow >>> for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall >flexing >>> capability to accommodate the outward volume.? >>> It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping >it to >>>> initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its >undistorted >>>> volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it >has bias >>>> pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure >down a bit >>>> from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You >can >>>> demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an >expensive >>>> vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large >syringe, or >>>> cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with >a >>>> relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for >compensation. >>>> You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for >obvious >>>> reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no >structural >>>> rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. >Which is >>>> why I prefer the bladder embodiment - encas! ed, it is essentially >a sm! >>>> all low pressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side >open to sea >>>> if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring >>>> pressure) if adding some bias pressure. >>>> >>>> If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it >>>> resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is >"flexible"), the >>>> overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first >seal to >>>> resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the >default >>>> configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter >seal space. >>>> If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the >>>> compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil >pressure >>>> drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been >allowed >>>> to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal. >>>> >>>> Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide >>>> compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation >pressure >>>> is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor >hits >>>> maximum expansion in operation. You should also avoid having >uncompensated >>>> void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change >that >>>> pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a >motor >>>> protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased >pressure, >>>> will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the >inter >>>> seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the >water, >>>> which is environmentally irresponsible. >>>> >>>> If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased >>>> pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the >seals >>>> (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking >past >>>> the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that >seal >>>> wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation >bladder. >>>> By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal >>>> condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would >indicate a >>>> serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as >would >>>> monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit >switches. If >>>> you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders >and >>>> monitor the entire range of their travel with displacement >transducers to >>>> give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of >both >>>> bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the >second seal >>>> to the water. A periodic analysis ! or observation of the oil in >the >>>> unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water >at the >>>> second seal at constant volume. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hey Alan, >>>>> >>>>> Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the >>>>> heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to >comprehend. Based >>>>> on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of >>>>> expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the >clear PVC >>>>> hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on >the motor >>>>> would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand >enough to >>>>> allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half >filled would >>>>> work better? >>>>> Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used >only >>>>> the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks all >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via >Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Rick, >>>>>> Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look up >>>>>> your compensating oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, & >>>>>> calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007. That >>>>>> would mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the >temperature >>>>>> went up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc. >>>>>> Not a lot given that you would not require a lot of oil in the >>>>>> thruster. >>>>>> Getting the air out could be a bigger problem & it would expand >more. >>>>>> In a declassified military document on compensating I read , it >talks >>>>>> about & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get >all >>>>>> the air out. >>>>>> Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil >to >>>>>> lubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense. >>>>>> What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & filling >>>>>> the motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a >relieving >>>>>> regulator >>>>>> (PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above >>>>>> ambient. >>>>>> Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oil expanding & >>>>>> leaking >>>>>> then contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if >I >>>>>> can find them. >>>>>> Regards Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification >>>>>> >>>>>> Alan, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. >You >>>>>> mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap >around there >>>>>> Minn-Kota motors! and mention about collapse pressure and also >mention >>>>>> about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking abou >>>>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 15:07:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:07:48 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Message-ID: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 15:34:21 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 10:34:21 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: Thanks all, sorry to beat this to death but I tend to get over anal about things as I have been a fabricator for 25 years so if there is something missing on the plans or in question, I come to an all stop and get clarification before proceeding. I blame it on breathing too much mixed gas on deep dives? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, I was thinking about using one of these: > > https://www.etrailer.com/Vehicle-Suspension/Firestone/F2580.html > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 > > If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft > bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in > a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure. > > Sean > > > On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Sean, > > I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a > bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to > figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you > said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though > all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer > after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing > out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% > outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on > that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give > in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough > to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory > seals? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would > be nice to hear from other! s who have only used the hose method without a > bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, > shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume > oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of > the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and > consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the > system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal! (s) will consume oil. > Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil. > > Using a hose is fine, provided that: > > 1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and > 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), > so that you have compensation capacity in both directions. > > Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into > play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need > to increase the tube volume until you don't. > > The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't > need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air > expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the > oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your > seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is > helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only > crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it. > > Sean > > On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Sean, > > Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds > like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way > to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would > be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow > for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing > capability to accommodate the outward volume.? > It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii > > Rick > > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to > initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted > volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias > pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit > from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can > demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive > vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or > cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a > relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. > You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious > reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural > rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is > why I prefer the bladder embodiment - encas! ed, it is essentially a sm! > all low pressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea > if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring > pressure) if adding some bias pressure. > > If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it > resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the > overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to > resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default > configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. > If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the > compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure > drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed > to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal. > > Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide > compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure > is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits > maximum expansion in operation. You should also avoid having uncompensated > void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that > pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor > protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, > will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter > seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, > which is environmentally irresponsible. > > If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure > in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals > (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past > the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal > wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. > By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal > condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a > serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would > monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches. If > you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and > monitor the entire range of their travel with displacement transducers to > give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both > bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal > to the water. A periodic analysis ! or observation of the oil in the > unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the > second seal at constant volume. > > Sean > > On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hey Alan, > > Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the > heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based > on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of > expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC > hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor > would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to > allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would > work better? > Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the > clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage? > > Thanks all > Rick > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look up > your compensating oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, & > calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007. That > would mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperature > went up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc. > Not a lot given that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster. > Getting the air out could be a bigger problem & it would expand more. > In a declassified military document on compensating I read , it talks > about & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get all > the air out. > Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil to > lubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense. > What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & filling > the motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving > regulator > (PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient. > Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oil expanding & leaking > then c > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 16:39:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 21:39:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <103983544.1075969.1481548949699@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> <149235740.595754.1481427924888@mail.yahoo.com> <99447612.838270.1481492808416@mail.yahoo.com> <693101285.814414.1481500015379@mail.yahoo.com> <863996484.1037151.1481520836897@mail.yahoo.com> <103983544.1075969.1481548949699@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <490418417.1601976.1481578796066@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,yes the bearings are open. It could be the lip seals.I have a dual seal arrangement like the Minn kota, but with aport for the oil to flow in between them. It may be that no oil isgetting in between the seals with the centrifugal force of the motordriving the oil out.?? When I turned on the thruster this morning I watched the oil moveup the wiring tube immediately, so it's just centrifugal force & notoil expansion.?? It could also be that I needed to press fit the drive shaft in to the motor& there may be a bit of wobble of the rotating housing on start.?? I will run it till the end of the week as I think my Nephew may likehis swimming pool back for the weekend. If it fails meanwhile, I willpull it apart.Alan? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:22 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,I doubt it is the bearing running out of oil that will make it start?weird. ?I assume you have open bearings, they are pretty tough. ?Do you have the prop on the motor for this test? ?Id does sound like something is getting hot and needs to cool a bit. ?You may have to pull the motor apart and look for rub marks. ?Is the motor still quiet for the whole test? ?When you stop and start it, does the oil in the wire tube jump? ? could the wires be under sized given the motor is oil filled now?Hmm this will be fun to solveHank On Sunday, December 11, 2016 10:34 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I ran it for 7 hours today, & the outside of the thruster was not hot. Although I have suspicions that either the bearings or lip seals are getting a bit hot. When I stopped & started it, it was starting roughly at times. If I left it a minute it would start smoothly. It was like something was seizing slightly. ?? Yes, I think if the oil was kept in with the hose wrap it wouldn't have happened. I guess that is one positive for it! ?? My motor comes with a heat sensor on it's hall sensor board, but haven't got the electronics to read it yet. ?? The next thruster version will have the mechanical seal, & I will pressurize the oil. My little motors need the oil for cooling as they are a lot more heat sensitive than the Minn Kotta's that are built big to run in air & withstand heat. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,Are you checking temperature of the oil in the motor. ?I think also if your worried about your bearings running out of oil, then there is an argument to use a hose for compensating rather than a bladder. ?The hose would restrict oil leaving the motor housing. ? I have a feeling in the cold lakes of BC there is a negligible amount of oil expansion due to heat. ?I still like the bladder as the better option.Hank On Sunday, December 11, 2016 2:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick & all,I have my thruster running in a swimming pool at the moment.I have it oil filled with the oil continuing up the wiring tube.I made a note of the oil level in the tube before running, then notedthe level had risen by a few inches while the motor was running.Obviously the centrifugal force of the motor is?pushing the oil out.?? This is probably not a problem at depth? where the water pressureacting on the bladder would? stop that happening. But while running on thesurface it would keep oil away from bearings & the rotary shaft seal.?? Although I am using lip seals at the moment, I will be using mechanicalseals in the next version,? & it will be important to keep oil on the sealfaces. This makes a good case for a compensator with over-pressure,to counteract this.Cheers Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, OK, then it sounds like a semi filled flexible oil bladder is the best way to go. It is more unsightly and needs to be secured somehow so it doesn't flop around while under-weigh compared to the coiled tube idea but bottom line is what works the best. I didn't realize that there were two 0 rings in the Minn-Kota motors until just recently when this thread started and I agree that that void should be filled with liquid so will look into the feasibility of that.?We have two mountains here on the big Island that top out just under 14,000 feet and they usually get snow on the tops every year. There is one on Maui as well but usually doesn't get as much. It's funny to see some people drive up there and fill their pick ups with it and drive back down to their house at sea level and shovel it into there yard for the day! Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 5:45 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I think the problem with the tube is not so much that it won't allow for expansion, but that it won't collapse under pressure before water can leak past your seal. ?? Karl Stanley told me he air compensated his thrusters on Idabel (that goes to 2000ft) with a first stage regulator with spring removed to give ambient pressure. When I asked him how the expanding air escaped on ascent he told me it just blew out past the seal. ?? I wouldn't do that as it could destroy the seal, but it demonstrates what you can get away with. Vance pulled Karl's motors apart & said there was a bit of water in them, but that it could have been from condensation of water from the several atmospheres of air that would be compressed in there. ?? Alec used the tube wrap system on Snoopy as did other Psubbers. I believe he did get water in, in the latter stages. ?? There is a gap between the two seals in the Minn kota 101 & one of them will fail if you take it deep enough. So you will end up with either oil or water in the gap. If you regard the outer seal as sacrificial & just there to stop sand & crud damaging the inner seal, then I guess it's not a big deal. Vance has said he regards the 101 as a disposable unit. I think the cheapest purpose built thrusters start around $4000- ?? Best as Sean says, to have an expansion / compensation bag. Better to add some pressure to it so that oil is more likely to flow out than water flow in. Microscopic spiral lines on the shaft from machining can pump water in or oil out. ?? I have built an oil filled brushless thruster that I am pool testing at the moment. A bit of work to go on it yet, but it's looking promising. ?? Snow in Hawaii??? Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, &calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is about .0007. Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a bigger problem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & leakingthen contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if Ican find them.Regards Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things??My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and expands.Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far?So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well?? Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some compensating thoughts. On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they were compensating. These come with various means of hose attachment. ?? With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's technicians told me they crimped the hose that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose for compensation. ?? The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal overpressure, but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came up with the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). Cliff is using this. This could be used for air or oil compensation. ?? The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use about a teaspoon a day. Based on that I would have some sort of reservoir. ?? Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you have a bearing in a bore followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing which may be a sealed type or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; so how do you get oil or ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's pressure limit. Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aft motor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 16:50:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 21:50:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <490418417.1601976.1481578796066@mail.yahoo.com> References: <620392090.5975506.1480943885051@mail.yahoo.com> <171735515.38647.1480971796648@mail.yahoo.com> <315317667.29796.1481154174906@mail.yahoo.com> <149235740.595754.1481427924888@mail.yahoo.com> <99447612.838270.1481492808416@mail.yahoo.com> <693101285.814414.1481500015379@mail.yahoo.com> <863996484.1037151.1481520836897@mail.yahoo.com> <103983544.1075969.1481548949699@mail.yahoo.com> <490418417.1601976.1481578796066@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <68444470.1431306.1481579450995@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,You will?likely have to rig it up with penetrators so you can force the oil to stay inside the motor.Hank On Monday, December 12, 2016 2:40 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,yes the bearings are open. It could be the lip seals.I have a dual seal arrangement like the Minn kota, but with aport for the oil to flow in between them. It may be that no oil isgetting in between the seals with the centrifugal force of the motordriving the oil out.?? When I turned on the thruster this morning I watched the oil moveup the wiring tube immediately, so it's just centrifugal force & notoil expansion.?? It could also be that I needed to press fit the drive shaft in to the motor& there may be a bit of wobble of the rotating housing on start.?? I will run it till the end of the week as I think my Nephew may likehis swimming pool back for the weekend. If it fails meanwhile, I willpull it apart.Alan? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:22 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,I doubt it is the bearing running out of oil that will make it start?weird. ?I assume you have open bearings, they are pretty tough. ?Do you have the prop on the motor for this test? ?Id does sound like something is getting hot and needs to cool a bit. ?You may have to pull the motor apart and look for rub marks. ?Is the motor still quiet for the whole test? ?When you stop and start it, does the oil in the wire tube jump? ? could the wires be under sized given the motor is oil filled now?Hmm this will be fun to solveHank On Sunday, December 11, 2016 10:34 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I ran it for 7 hours today, & the outside of the thruster was not hot. Although I have suspicions that either the bearings or lip seals are getting a bit hot. When I stopped & started it, it was starting roughly at times. If I left it a minute it would start smoothly. It was like something was seizing slightly. ?? Yes, I think if the oil was kept in with the hose wrap it wouldn't have happened. I guess that is one positive for it! ?? My motor comes with a heat sensor on it's hall sensor board, but haven't got the electronics to read it yet. ?? The next thruster version will have the mechanical seal, & I will pressurize the oil. My little motors need the oil for cooling as they are a lot more heat sensitive than the Minn Kotta's that are built big to run in air & withstand heat. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,Are you checking temperature of the oil in the motor. ?I think also if your worried about your bearings running out of oil, then there is an argument to use a hose for compensating rather than a bladder. ?The hose would restrict oil leaving the motor housing. ? I have a feeling in the cold lakes of BC there is a negligible amount of oil expansion due to heat. ?I still like the bladder as the better option.Hank On Sunday, December 11, 2016 2:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick & all,I have my thruster running in a swimming pool at the moment.I have it oil filled with the oil continuing up the wiring tube.I made a note of the oil level in the tube before running, then notedthe level had risen by a few inches while the motor was running.Obviously the centrifugal force of the motor is?pushing the oil out.?? This is probably not a problem at depth? where the water pressureacting on the bladder would? stop that happening. But while running on thesurface it would keep oil away from bearings & the rotary shaft seal.?? Although I am using lip seals at the moment, I will be using mechanicalseals in the next version,? & it will be important to keep oil on the sealfaces. This makes a good case for a compensator with over-pressure,to counteract this.Cheers Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, OK, then it sounds like a semi filled flexible oil bladder is the best way to go. It is more unsightly and needs to be secured somehow so it doesn't flop around while under-weigh compared to the coiled tube idea but bottom line is what works the best. I didn't realize that there were two 0 rings in the Minn-Kota motors until just recently when this thread started and I agree that that void should be filled with liquid so will look into the feasibility of that.?We have two mountains here on the big Island that top out just under 14,000 feet and they usually get snow on the tops every year. There is one on Maui as well but usually doesn't get as much. It's funny to see some people drive up there and fill their pick ups with it and drive back down to their house at sea level and shovel it into there yard for the day! Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 5:45 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I think the problem with the tube is not so much that it won't allow for expansion, but that it won't collapse under pressure before water can leak past your seal. ?? Karl Stanley told me he air compensated his thrusters on Idabel (that goes to 2000ft) with a first stage regulator with spring removed to give ambient pressure. When I asked him how the expanding air escaped on ascent he told me it just blew out past the seal. ?? I wouldn't do that as it could destroy the seal, but it demonstrates what you can get away with. Vance pulled Karl's motors apart & said there was a bit of water in them, but that it could have been from condensation of water from the several atmospheres of air that would be compressed in there. ?? Alec used the tube wrap system on Snoopy as did other Psubbers. I believe he did get water in, in the latter stages. ?? There is a gap between the two seals in the Minn kota 101 & one of them will fail if you take it deep enough. So you will end up with either oil or water in the gap. If you regard the outer seal as sacrificial & just there to stop sand & crud damaging the inner seal, then I guess it's not a big deal. Vance has said he regards the 101 as a disposable unit. I think the cheapest purpose built thrusters start around $4000- ?? Best as Sean says, to have an expansion / compensation bag. Better to add some pressure to it so that oil is more likely to flow out than water flow in. Microscopic spiral lines on the shaft from machining can pump water in or oil out. ?? I have built an oil filled brushless thruster that I am pool testing at the moment. A bit of work to go on it yet, but it's looking promising. ?? Snow in Hawaii??? Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, &calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is about .0007. Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a bigger problem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about oil expanding & leakingthen contracting & sucking in water. Will re post their emails if Ican find them.Regards Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan, I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things??My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and expands.Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter) and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far?So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well?? Rick On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some compensating thoughts. On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they were compensating. These come with various means of hose attachment. ?? With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's technicians told me they crimped the hose that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose for compensation. ?? The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal overpressure, but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came up with the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). Cliff is using this. This could be used for air or oil compensation. ?? The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use about a teaspoon a day. Based on that I would have some sort of reservoir. ?? Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you have a bearing in a bore followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing which may be a sealed type or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; so how do you get oil or ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's pressure limit. Alan From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Hi Antoine\Hank. Thanks guys.? drinking bladder looks good.? I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar.? I use a?hot water bottle for the aft motor.?Hank, what do you use for a bladder??ThanksJames? On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, ?and it works like a dream.?Hank On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi frankI have done something like that for my prop shaft seal?oil filled compartment.? But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle.?Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.?The tube is flexible and transparent,?from endurance?sport platypus?drinking bladder Works wellRegards?Antoine? On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All?I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.?I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.? Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.?So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.? Its better, but still awkward.?I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.? Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.? There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.? 2x pictures show filling and operation.? Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.?What does everyone think?? ? ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28946 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motors 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 16:57:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 21:57:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1955303611.1412334.1481579833016@mail.yahoo.com> Hey Rick,It is easy to be confused about this because there are so many options based on what you have to work with. ? I use a hose on my LED light bar and it is a flat clear hose. ?It is a clear garden hose and stays flat until the water pressure opens it up. ?If you use this you will have the tension of the hose trying to squeeze flat creating some internal pressure. ?It?obviously will flatten under pressure and it will expand with any oil expansion. ?It is tricky to fill with oil, but you can rig up a piece that hold it open for filling.Just some more things to chew on.Hank On Monday, December 12, 2016 1:34 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks all, sorry to beat this to death but I tend to get over anal about things as I have been a fabricator for 25 years so if there is something missing on the plans or in question, I come to an all stop and get clarification before proceeding. I blame it on breathing too much mixed gas on deep dives? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?? I was thinking about using one of these:?https://www.etrailer.com/ Vehicle-Suspension/Firestone/ F2580.html?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure.Sean On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory seals?? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would be nice to hear from other! s whohave only used the hose method without a bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. Thanks? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal! (s) willconsume oil. Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil.Using a hose is fine, provided that:1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), so that you have compensation capacity in both directions.Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need to increase the tube volume until you don't.The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it.Sean On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing capability to accommodate the outward volume.?It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is why I prefer the bladder embodiment -? encas! ed, itis essentially a sm! all lowpressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring pressure) if adding some bias pressure.If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal.Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits maximum expansion in operation.? You should also avoid having uncompensated void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, which is environmentally irresponsible.If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches.? If you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and monitor the entire range of their travel with? displacement transducers to give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal to the water. A periodic analysis ! orobservation of the oil in the unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the second seal at constant volume.Sean On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion,&calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007.Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a biggerproblem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oilexpanding & leakingthen c ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 17:15:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 22:15:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: <536174346.1614144.1481580915652@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, I don't think you are over-thinking. You want to get it right. You are going to be diving in salt water, whereas a lot of the psubbers predominately dive in fresh. Also you have access to deep water & will probably be diving deeper than most people.I have been mulling over this subject & trying to get good information for years. I have swung between air compensation & oil compensation but are pretty convinced oil is the way to go, as far as keeping the motor cool, lubricating seals & bearings & diluting any water that may come in. ?? I don't like the tube wrap method because it only gives you just less than ambient pressure & not the safety of an internal over-pressure. The industry standard is about 4psi overpressure & I am just going on what the underwater industry is doing. ?? Also you will lose oil, as the seals will leak it if they are operating properly & you wil need to re-fill more frequently than if you had a larger compensator. ?? For probably less than $150- you could buy the PR364 relieving regulator & just oil fill the wiring tubes & T in air pressure from this regulator. Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Thanks all, sorry to beat this to death but I tend to get over anal about things as I have been a fabricator for 25 years so if there is something missing on the plans or in question, I come to an all stop and get clarification before proceeding. I blame it on breathing too much mixed gas on deep dives? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?? I was thinking about using one of these:?https://www.etrailer.com/ Vehicle-Suspension/Firestone/ F2580.html?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure.Sean On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory seals?? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would be nice to hear from other! s whohave only used the hose method without a bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. Thanks? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal! (s) willconsume oil. Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil.Using a hose is fine, provided that:1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), so that you have compensation capacity in both directions.Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need to increase the tube volume until you don't.The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it.Sean On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing capability to accommodate the outward volume.?It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is why I prefer the bladder embodiment -? encas! ed, itis essentially a sm! all lowpressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring pressure) if adding some bias pressure.If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal.Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits maximum expansion in operation.? You should also avoid having uncompensated void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, which is environmentally irresponsible.If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches.? If you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and monitor the entire range of their travel with? displacement transducers to give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal to the water. A periodic analysis ! orobservation of the oil in the unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the second seal at constant volume.Sean On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion,&calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007.Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a biggerproblem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oilexpanding & leakingthen c ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 17:40:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:40:58 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <536174346.1614144.1481580915652@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> <536174346.1614144.1481580915652@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Alan, I have been hearing 4 PSI over ambient on the group. I imagine a dive shop would have to set that rating? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > I don't think you are over-thinking. You want to get it right. > You are going to be diving in salt water, whereas a lot of the > psubbers predominately dive in fresh. Also you have access to > deep water & will probably be diving deeper than most people. > I have been mulling over this subject & trying to get good > information for years. I have swung between air compensation > & oil compensation but are pretty convinced oil is the way to > go, as far as keeping the motor cool, lubricating seals & bearings > & diluting any water that may come in. > I don't like the tube wrap method because it only gives you just > less than ambient pressure & not the safety of an internal over-pressure. > The industry standard is about 4psi overpressure & I am just going > on what the underwater industry is doing. > Also you will lose oil, as the seals will leak it if they are operating > properly & you wil need to re-fill more frequently than if you had a > larger compensator. > For probably less than $150- you could buy the PR364 relieving regulator > & just oil fill the wiring tubes & T in air pressure from this regulator. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:34 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > > Thanks all, sorry to beat this to death but I tend to get over anal about > things as I have been a fabricator for 25 years so if there is something > missing on the plans or in question, I come to an all stop and get > clarification before proceeding. I blame it on breathing too much mixed gas > on deep dives? > > Rick > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, I was thinking about using one of these: > > https://www.etrailer.com/ Vehicle-Suspension/Firestone/ F2580.html > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 > > If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft > bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in > a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure. > Sean > > > On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Sean, > > I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a > bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to > figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you > said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though > all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer > after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing > out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% > outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on > that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give > in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough > to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory > seals? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would > be nice to hear from other! s who have only used the hose method without a > bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, > shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume > oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of > the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and > consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the > system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal! (s) will consume oil. > Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil. > Using a hose is fine, provided that: > 1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and > 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), > so that you have compensation capacity in both directions. > Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into > play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need > to increase the tube volume until you don't. > The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't > need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air > expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the > oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your > seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is > helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only > crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it. > Sean > > On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Sean, > > Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds > like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way > to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would > be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow > for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing > capability to accommodate the outward volume.? > It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii > > Rick > > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to > initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted > volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias > pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit > from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can > demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive > vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or > cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a > relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. > You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious > reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural > rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is > why I prefer the bladder embodiment - encas! ed, it is essentially a sm! > all low pressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea > if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring > pressure) if adding some bias pressure. > If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it > resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the > overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to > resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default > configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. > If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the > compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure > drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed > to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal. > Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide > compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure > is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits > maximum expansion in operation. You should also avoid having uncompensated > void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that > pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor > protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, > will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter > seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, > which is environmentally irresponsible. > If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure > in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals > (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past > the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal > wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. > By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal > condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a > serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would > monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches. If > you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and > monitor the entire range of their travel with displacement transducers to > give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both > bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal > to the water. A periodic analysis ! or observation of the oil in the > unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the > second seal at constant volume. > Sean > > On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hey Alan, > > Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the > heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based > on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of > expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC > hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor > would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to > allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would > work better? > Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the > clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage? > > Thanks all > Rick > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Rick, > Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look up > your compensating oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, & > calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007. That > would mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperature > went up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc. > Not a lot given that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster. > Getting the air out could be a bigger problem & it would expand more. > In a declassified military document on compensating I read , it talks > about & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get all > the air out. > Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil to > lubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense. > What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & filling > the motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving > regulator > (PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient. > Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oil expanding & leaking > then c > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 18:10:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 23:10:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> <536174346.1614144.1481580915652@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1961362839.1699029.1481584215836@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, no, if you bought the regulator with a gauge for the out-put port, you can just dial up 4psi. Make sure you get a plug to go in that port, as you only want the gauge there for calibration. What I don't know is at what pressure above the 4psi the relieving valve kicks in. The relieving valve's spring might not be stainless, in which case it will need replacing & can be replaced with a spring that is just a couple of psi. Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Thanks Alan, I have been hearing 4 PSI over ambient on the group. I imagine a dive shop would have to set that rating? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I don't think you are over-thinking. You want to get it right. You are going to be diving in salt water, whereas a lot of the psubbers predominately dive in fresh. Also you have access to deep water & will probably be diving deeper than most people.I have been mulling over this subject & trying to get good information for years. I have swung between air compensation & oil compensation but are pretty convinced oil is the way to go, as far as keeping the motor cool, lubricating seals & bearings & diluting any water that may come in. ?? I don't like the tube wrap method because it only gives you just less than ambient pressure & not the safety of an internal over-pressure. The industry standard is about 4psi overpressure & I am just going on what the underwater industry is doing. ?? Also you will lose oil, as the seals will leak it if they are operating properly & you wil need to re-fill more frequently than if you had a larger compensator. ?? For probably less than $150- you could buy the PR364 relieving regulator & just oil fill the wiring tubes & T in air pressure from this regulator. Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Thanks all, sorry to beat this to death but I tend to get over anal about things as I have been a fabricator for 25 years so if there is something missing on the plans or in question, I come to an all stop and get clarification before proceeding. I blame it on breathing too much mixed gas on deep dives? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?? I was thinking about using one of these:?https://www.etrailer.com/ Vehicle-Suspension/Firestone/ F2580.html?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure.Sean On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory seals?? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would be nice to hear from other! s whohave only used the hose method without a bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. Thanks? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal! (s) willconsume oil. Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil.Using a hose is fine, provided that:1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), so that you have compensation capacity in both directions.Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need to increase the tube volume until you don't.The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it.Sean On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing capability to accommodate the outward volume.?It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is why I prefer the bladder embodiment -? encas! ed, itis essentially a sm! all lowpressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring pressure) if adding some bias pressure.If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal.Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits maximum expansion in operation.? You should also avoid having uncompensated void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, which is environmentally irresponsible.If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches.? If you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and monitor the entire range of their travel with? displacement transducers to give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal to the water. A periodic analysis ! orobservation of the oil in the unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the second seal at constant volume.Sean On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion,&calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007.Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a biggerproblem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oilexpanding & leakingthen c ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 18:31:45 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 23:31:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: References: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> <536174346.1614144.1481580915652@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <223444485.490860.1481585505826@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,We need to copy the way?submersible pumps are built. ?I will grab the one I have at my other shop?tomorrow and take it apart again. ?I will look at the seal again. ?the big difference and what I think is the most critical, is the size of the compensating diaphragm. ?The rubber diaphragm is quiet large on the pump. ? I have never heard of a submersible well pump loosing the oil.Hank On Monday, December 12, 2016 3:41 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Alan, I have been hearing 4 PSI over ambient on the group. I imagine a dive shop would have to set that rating? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I don't think you are over-thinking. You want to get it right. You are going to be diving in salt water, whereas a lot of the psubbers predominately dive in fresh. Also you have access to deep water & will probably be diving deeper than most people.I have been mulling over this subject & trying to get good information for years. I have swung between air compensation & oil compensation but are pretty convinced oil is the way to go, as far as keeping the motor cool, lubricating seals & bearings & diluting any water that may come in. ?? I don't like the tube wrap method because it only gives you just less than ambient pressure & not the safety of an internal over-pressure. The industry standard is about 4psi overpressure & I am just going on what the underwater industry is doing. ?? Also you will lose oil, as the seals will leak it if they are operating properly & you wil need to re-fill more frequently than if you had a larger compensator. ?? For probably less than $150- you could buy the PR364 relieving regulator & just oil fill the wiring tubes & T in air pressure from this regulator. Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Thanks all, sorry to beat this to death but I tend to get over anal about things as I have been a fabricator for 25 years so if there is something missing on the plans or in question, I come to an all stop and get clarification before proceeding. I blame it on breathing too much mixed gas on deep dives? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?? I was thinking about using one of these:?https://www.etrailer.com/ Vehicle-Suspension/Firestone/ F2580.html?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure.Sean On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory seals?? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would be nice to hear from other! s whohave only used the hose method without a bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. Thanks? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal! (s) willconsume oil. Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil.Using a hose is fine, provided that:1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), so that you have compensation capacity in both directions.Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need to increase the tube volume until you don't.The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it.Sean On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing capability to accommodate the outward volume.?It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is why I prefer the bladder embodiment -? encas! ed, itis essentially a sm! all lowpressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring pressure) if adding some bias pressure.If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal.Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits maximum expansion in operation.? You should also avoid having uncompensated void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, which is environmentally irresponsible.If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches.? If you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and monitor the entire range of their travel with? displacement transducers to give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal to the water. A periodic analysis ! orobservation of the oil in the unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the second seal at constant volume.Sean On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion,&calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007.Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a biggerproblem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oilexpanding & leakingthen c ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 12 23:18:00 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 18:18:00 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <1961362839.1699029.1481584215836@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> <536174346.1614144.1481580915652@mail.yahoo.com> <1961362839.1699029.1481584215836@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds good! Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > no, if you bought the regulator with a gauge for the out-put port, > you can just dial up 4psi. Make sure you get a plug to go in that > port, as you only want the gauge there for calibration. > What I don't know is at what pressure above the 4psi the > relieving valve kicks in. The relieving valve's spring might not > be stainless, in which case it will need replacing & can be replaced > with a spring that is just a couple of psi. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:40 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > > Thanks Alan, > > I have been hearing 4 PSI over ambient on the group. I imagine a dive shop > would have to set that rating? > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > I don't think you are over-thinking. You want to get it right. > You are going to be diving in salt water, whereas a lot of the > psubbers predominately dive in fresh. Also you have access to > deep water & will probably be diving deeper than most people. > I have been mulling over this subject & trying to get good > information for years. I have swung between air compensation > & oil compensation but are pretty convinced oil is the way to > go, as far as keeping the motor cool, lubricating seals & bearings > & diluting any water that may come in. > I don't like the tube wrap method because it only gives you just > less than ambient pressure & not the safety of an internal over-pressure. > The industry standard is about 4psi overpressure & I am just going > on what the underwater industry is doing. > Also you will lose oil, as the seals will leak it if they are operating > properly & you wil need to re-fill more frequently than if you had a > larger compensator. > For probably less than $150- you could buy the PR364 relieving regulator > & just oil fill the wiring tubes & T in air pressure from this regulator. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:34 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > > Thanks all, sorry to beat this to death but I tend to get over anal about > things as I have been a fabricator for 25 years so if there is something > missing on the plans or in question, I come to an all stop and get > clarification before proceeding. I blame it on breathing too much mixed gas > on deep dives? > > Rick > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Rick, I was thinking about using one of these: > > https://www.etrailer.com/ Vehicle-Suspension/Firestone/ F2580.html > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 > > If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft > bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in > a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure. > Sean > > > On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Sean, > > I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a > bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to > figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you > said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though > all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer > after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing > out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% > outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on > that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give > in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough > to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory > seals? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would > be nice to hear from other! s who have only used the hose method without a > bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, > shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume > oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of > the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and > consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the > system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal! (s) will consume oil. > Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil. > Using a hose is fine, provided that: > 1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and > 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), > so that you have compensation capacity in both directions. > Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into > play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need > to increase the tube volume until you don't. > The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't > need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air > expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the > oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your > seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is > helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only > crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it. > Sean > > On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Sean, > > Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds > like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way > to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would > be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow > for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing > capability to accommodate the outward volume.? > It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii > > Rick > > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to > initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted > volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias > pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit > from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can > demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive > vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or > cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a > relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. > You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious > reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural > rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is > why I prefer the bladder embodiment - encas! ed, it is essentially a sm! > all low pressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea > if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring > pressure) if adding some bias pressure. > If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it > resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the > overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to > resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default > configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. > If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the > compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure > drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed > to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal. > Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide > compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure > is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits > maximum expansion in operation. You should also avoid having uncompensated > void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that > pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor > protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, > will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter > seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, > which is environmentally irresponsible. > If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure > in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals > (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past > the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal > wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. > By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal > condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a > serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would > monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches. If > you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and > monitor the entire range of their travel with displacement transducers to > give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both > bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal > to the water. A periodic analysis ! or observation of the oil in the > unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the > second seal at constant volume. > Sean > > On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hey Alan, > > Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the > heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based > on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of > expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC > hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor > would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to > allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would > work better? > Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the > clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage? > > Thanks all > Rick > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Rick, > Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look up > your compensating oil's coefficient of thermal expansion, & > calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007. That > would mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperature > went up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc. > Not a lot given that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster. > Getting the air out could be a bigger problem & it would expand more. > In a declassified military document on compensating I read , it talks > about & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get all > the air out. > Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil to > lubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense. > What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & filling > the motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving > regulator > (PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient. > Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oil expanding & leaking > then c > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 13 05:20:41 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:20:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <223444485.490860.1481585505826@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> <536174346.1614144.1481580915652@mail.yahoo.com> <223444485.490860.1481585505826@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <416624086.1960419.1481624441568@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, yes any insight from that industry would be great, after all there are a lot more submersible pumps around than underwater thrusters. ?? I did post a link on a comparison of oil & air filled pumps. Also posted a link on 2 declassified military papers on compensating & seals for underwater operations. Additionally I have been gatheringinformation from thruster manufacturers as to what seals they used.It was very varied. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,We need to copy the way?submersible pumps are built. ?I will grab the one I have at my other shop?tomorrow and take it apart again. ?I will look at the seal again. ?the big difference and what I think is the most critical, is the size of the compensating diaphragm. ?The rubber diaphragm is quiet large on the pump. ? I have never heard of a submersible well pump loosing the oil.Hank On Monday, December 12, 2016 3:41 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Alan, I have been hearing 4 PSI over ambient on the group. I imagine a dive shop would have to set that rating? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I don't think you are over-thinking. You want to get it right. You are going to be diving in salt water, whereas a lot of the psubbers predominately dive in fresh. Also you have access to deep water & will probably be diving deeper than most people.I have been mulling over this subject & trying to get good information for years. I have swung between air compensation & oil compensation but are pretty convinced oil is the way to go, as far as keeping the motor cool, lubricating seals & bearings & diluting any water that may come in. ?? I don't like the tube wrap method because it only gives you just less than ambient pressure & not the safety of an internal over-pressure. The industry standard is about 4psi overpressure & I am just going on what the underwater industry is doing. ?? Also you will lose oil, as the seals will leak it if they are operating properly & you wil need to re-fill more frequently than if you had a larger compensator. ?? For probably less than $150- you could buy the PR364 relieving regulator & just oil fill the wiring tubes & T in air pressure from this regulator. Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Thanks all, sorry to beat this to death but I tend to get over anal about things as I have been a fabricator for 25 years so if there is something missing on the plans or in question, I come to an all stop and get clarification before proceeding. I blame it on breathing too much mixed gas on deep dives? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?? I was thinking about using one of these:?https://www.etrailer.com/ Vehicle-Suspension/Firestone/ F2580.html?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure.Sean On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory seals?? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would be nice to hear from other! s whohave only used the hose method without a bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. Thanks? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal! (s) willconsume oil. Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil.Using a hose is fine, provided that:1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), so that you have compensation capacity in both directions.Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need to increase the tube volume until you don't.The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it.Sean On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing capability to accommodate the outward volume.?It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is why I prefer the bladder embodiment -? encas! ed, itis essentially a sm! all lowpressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring pressure) if adding some bias pressure.If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal.Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits maximum expansion in operation.? You should also avoid having uncompensated void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, which is environmentally irresponsible.If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches.? If you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and monitor the entire range of their travel with? displacement transducers to give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal to the water. A periodic analysis ! orobservation of the oil in the unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the second seal at constant volume.Sean On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion,&calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007.Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a biggerproblem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oilexpanding & leakingthen c ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 13 08:26:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 13:26:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <416624086.1960419.1481624441568@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> <536174346.1614144.1481580915652@mail.yahoo.com> <223444485.490860.1481585505826@mail.yahoo.com> <416624086.1960419.1481624441568@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1963520321.417919.1481635572635@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I will go get it later today and take it apart , just started my car to warm it up -21C ? ?I am taking parts off an old sub hull for Elementary and it is chilly work,?brrrr!You know more than me on this subject, I have not had great consistency with keeping water out. ?I have tried many systems with Minn Kota ?and none have been 100% effective. ? My Perry thrusters with updated mechanical seals are 100% so far.Hank On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 3:21 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, yes any insight from that industry would be great, after all there are a lot more submersible pumps around than underwater thrusters. ?? I did post a link on a comparison of oil & air filled pumps. Also posted a link on 2 declassified military papers on compensating & seals for underwater operations. Additionally I have been gatheringinformation from thruster manufacturers as to what seals they used.It was very varied. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,We need to copy the way?submersible pumps are built. ?I will grab the one I have at my other shop?tomorrow and take it apart again. ?I will look at the seal again. ?the big difference and what I think is the most critical, is the size of the compensating diaphragm. ?The rubber diaphragm is quiet large on the pump. ? I have never heard of a submersible well pump loosing the oil.Hank On Monday, December 12, 2016 3:41 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Alan, I have been hearing 4 PSI over ambient on the group. I imagine a dive shop would have to set that rating? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I don't think you are over-thinking. You want to get it right. You are going to be diving in salt water, whereas a lot of the psubbers predominately dive in fresh. Also you have access to deep water & will probably be diving deeper than most people.I have been mulling over this subject & trying to get good information for years. I have swung between air compensation & oil compensation but are pretty convinced oil is the way to go, as far as keeping the motor cool, lubricating seals & bearings & diluting any water that may come in. ?? I don't like the tube wrap method because it only gives you just less than ambient pressure & not the safety of an internal over-pressure. The industry standard is about 4psi overpressure & I am just going on what the underwater industry is doing. ?? Also you will lose oil, as the seals will leak it if they are operating properly & you wil need to re-fill more frequently than if you had a larger compensator. ?? For probably less than $150- you could buy the PR364 relieving regulator & just oil fill the wiring tubes & T in air pressure from this regulator. Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Thanks all, sorry to beat this to death but I tend to get over anal about things as I have been a fabricator for 25 years so if there is something missing on the plans or in question, I come to an all stop and get clarification before proceeding. I blame it on breathing too much mixed gas on deep dives? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?? I was thinking about using one of these:?https://www.etrailer.com/ Vehicle-Suspension/Firestone/ F2580.html?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure.Sean On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory seals?? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would be nice to hear from other! s whohave only used the hose method without a bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. Thanks? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal! (s) willconsume oil. Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil.Using a hose is fine, provided that:1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), so that you have compensation capacity in both directions.Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need to increase the tube volume until you don't.The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it.Sean On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing capability to accommodate the outward volume.?It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is why I prefer the bladder embodiment -? encas! ed, itis essentially a sm! all lowpressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring pressure) if adding some bias pressure.If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal.Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits maximum expansion in operation.? You should also avoid having uncompensated void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, which is environmentally irresponsible.If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches.? If you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and monitor the entire range of their travel with? displacement transducers to give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal to the water. A periodic analysis ! orobservation of the oil in the unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the second seal at constant volume.Sean On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion,&calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007.Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a biggerproblem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oilexpanding & leakingthen c ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 13 18:20:28 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 23:20:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <1963520321.417919.1481635572635@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> <536174346.1614144.1481580915652@mail.yahoo.com> <223444485.490860.1481585505826@mail.yahoo.com> <416624086.1960419.1481624441568@mail.yahoo.com> <1963520321.417919.1481635572635@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1318914393.2533874.1481671228680@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, Auckland's coldest temperature ever was -3 C. ? You Psub people put me on the track of the mechanical seal. So I amjust learning off you guys. One good thing is it is more tolerant of the shaft surface roughness. ?? In the Psubs white paper on Minn kotta conversions it advises plunge grinding the shaft for the lip seals.? At least I won't have to do that with a mechanical seal. ?? My thruster ran another 12hrs yesterday :) I am thinking that the design of my motor may lead it to pump out the oil from the housing. It might not be such an issue with other motors, but certainly something to keep in mind if anyone has a compensation bag with no overpressure. Keep warm! Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 2:26 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,I will go get it later today and take it apart , just started my car to warm it up -21C ? ?I am taking parts off an old sub hull for Elementary and it is chilly work,?brrrr!You know more than me on this subject, I have not had great consistency with keeping water out. ?I have tried many systems with Minn Kota ?and none have been 100% effective. ? My Perry thrusters with updated mechanical seals are 100% so far.Hank On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 3:21 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, yes any insight from that industry would be great, after all there are a lot more submersible pumps around than underwater thrusters. ?? I did post a link on a comparison of oil & air filled pumps. Also posted a link on 2 declassified military papers on compensating & seals for underwater operations. Additionally I have been gatheringinformation from thruster manufacturers as to what seals they used.It was very varied. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,We need to copy the way?submersible pumps are built. ?I will grab the one I have at my other shop?tomorrow and take it apart again. ?I will look at the seal again. ?the big difference and what I think is the most critical, is the size of the compensating diaphragm. ?The rubber diaphragm is quiet large on the pump. ? I have never heard of a submersible well pump loosing the oil.Hank On Monday, December 12, 2016 3:41 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Alan, I have been hearing 4 PSI over ambient on the group. I imagine a dive shop would have to set that rating? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I don't think you are over-thinking. You want to get it right. You are going to be diving in salt water, whereas a lot of the psubbers predominately dive in fresh. Also you have access to deep water & will probably be diving deeper than most people.I have been mulling over this subject & trying to get good information for years. I have swung between air compensation & oil compensation but are pretty convinced oil is the way to go, as far as keeping the motor cool, lubricating seals & bearings & diluting any water that may come in. ?? I don't like the tube wrap method because it only gives you just less than ambient pressure & not the safety of an internal over-pressure. The industry standard is about 4psi overpressure & I am just going on what the underwater industry is doing. ?? Also you will lose oil, as the seals will leak it if they are operating properly & you wil need to re-fill more frequently than if you had a larger compensator. ?? For probably less than $150- you could buy the PR364 relieving regulator & just oil fill the wiring tubes & T in air pressure from this regulator. Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Thanks all, sorry to beat this to death but I tend to get over anal about things as I have been a fabricator for 25 years so if there is something missing on the plans or in question, I come to an all stop and get clarification before proceeding. I blame it on breathing too much mixed gas on deep dives? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?? I was thinking about using one of these:?https://www.etrailer.com/ Vehicle-Suspension/Firestone/ F2580.html?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure.Sean On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory seals?? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would be nice to hear from other! s whohave only used the hose method without a bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. Thanks? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal! (s) willconsume oil. Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil.Using a hose is fine, provided that:1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), so that you have compensation capacity in both directions.Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need to increase the tube volume until you don't.The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it.Sean On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing capability to accommodate the outward volume.?It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is why I prefer the bladder embodiment -? encas! ed, itis essentially a sm! all lowpressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring pressure) if adding some bias pressure.If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal.Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits maximum expansion in operation.? You should also avoid having uncompensated void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, which is environmentally irresponsible.If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches.? If you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and monitor the entire range of their travel with? displacement transducers to give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal to the water. A periodic analysis ! orobservation of the oil in the unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the second seal at constant volume.Sean On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion,&calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007.Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a biggerproblem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oilexpanding & leakingthen c ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 13 18:43:17 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 23:43:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <1318914393.2533874.1481671228680@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20161212120748.E7F1BB66@m0087793.ppops.net> <536174346.1614144.1481580915652@mail.yahoo.com> <223444485.490860.1481585505826@mail.yahoo.com> <416624086.1960419.1481624441568@mail.yahoo.com> <1963520321.417919.1481635572635@mail.yahoo.com> <1318914393.2533874.1481671228680@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <213564426.2226000.1481672597660@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,It warmed up real nice today to -12C, sweet. ?I am with you on the mechanical seal, they rock! ?I had no idea you could get such small mechanical seals.The pump, has no bearings just long bushings.Hank On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 4:21 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Auckland's coldest temperature ever was -3 C. ? You Psub people put me on the track of the mechanical seal. So I amjust learning off you guys. One good thing is it is more tolerant of the shaft surface roughness. ?? In the Psubs white paper on Minn kotta conversions it advises plunge grinding the shaft for the lip seals.? At least I won't have to do that with a mechanical seal. ?? My thruster ran another 12hrs yesterday :) I am thinking that the design of my motor may lead it to pump out the oil from the housing. It might not be such an issue with other motors, but certainly something to keep in mind if anyone has a compensation bag with no overpressure. Keep warm! Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 2:26 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,I will go get it later today and take it apart , just started my car to warm it up -21C ? ?I am taking parts off an old sub hull for Elementary and it is chilly work,?brrrr!You know more than me on this subject, I have not had great consistency with keeping water out. ?I have tried many systems with Minn Kota ?and none have been 100% effective. ? My Perry thrusters with updated mechanical seals are 100% so far.Hank On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 3:21 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, yes any insight from that industry would be great, after all there are a lot more submersible pumps around than underwater thrusters. ?? I did post a link on a comparison of oil & air filled pumps. Also posted a link on 2 declassified military papers on compensating & seals for underwater operations. Additionally I have been gatheringinformation from thruster manufacturers as to what seals they used.It was very varied. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,We need to copy the way?submersible pumps are built. ?I will grab the one I have at my other shop?tomorrow and take it apart again. ?I will look at the seal again. ?the big difference and what I think is the most critical, is the size of the compensating diaphragm. ?The rubber diaphragm is quiet large on the pump. ? I have never heard of a submersible well pump loosing the oil.Hank On Monday, December 12, 2016 3:41 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Alan, I have been hearing 4 PSI over ambient on the group. I imagine a dive shop would have to set that rating? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I don't think you are over-thinking. You want to get it right. You are going to be diving in salt water, whereas a lot of the psubbers predominately dive in fresh. Also you have access to deep water & will probably be diving deeper than most people.I have been mulling over this subject & trying to get good information for years. I have swung between air compensation & oil compensation but are pretty convinced oil is the way to go, as far as keeping the motor cool, lubricating seals & bearings & diluting any water that may come in. ?? I don't like the tube wrap method because it only gives you just less than ambient pressure & not the safety of an internal over-pressure. The industry standard is about 4psi overpressure & I am just going on what the underwater industry is doing. ?? Also you will lose oil, as the seals will leak it if they are operating properly & you wil need to re-fill more frequently than if you had a larger compensator. ?? For probably less than $150- you could buy the PR364 relieving regulator & just oil fill the wiring tubes & T in air pressure from this regulator. Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Thanks all, sorry to beat this to death but I tend to get over anal about things as I have been a fabricator for 25 years so if there is something missing on the plans or in question, I come to an all stop and get clarification before proceeding. I blame it on breathing too much mixed gas on deep dives? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?? I was thinking about using one of these:?https://www.etrailer.com/ Vehicle-Suspension/Firestone/ F2580.html?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure.Sean On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory seals?? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would be nice to hear from other! s whohave only used the hose method without a bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. Thanks? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal! (s) willconsume oil. Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil.Using a hose is fine, provided that:1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), so that you have compensation capacity in both directions.Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need to increase the tube volume until you don't.The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it.Sean On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing capability to accommodate the outward volume.?It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is why I prefer the bladder embodiment -? encas! ed, itis essentially a sm! all lowpressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring pressure) if adding some bias pressure.If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal.Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits maximum expansion in operation.? You should also avoid having uncompensated void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, which is environmentally irresponsible.If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches.? If you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and monitor the entire range of their travel with? displacement transducers to give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal to the water. A periodic analysis ! orobservation of the oil in the unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the second seal at constant volume.Sean On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion,&calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007.Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a biggerproblem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oilexpanding & leakingthen c ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 13 19:04:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:04:04 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Message-ID: <20161213160404.E7F1F0F2@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 13 23:01:25 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 04:01:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification In-Reply-To: <20161213160404.E7F1F0F2@m0087791.ppops.net> References: <20161213160404.E7F1F0F2@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1930328330.2617964.1481688085213@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Brian, I am using deep grove ball bearings, as a bearing company technician calculated that they would handle the thrust as well as the rotary motion adequately. I would look at your propeller shaft size, then look at the suitable deep grove ball bearings for that diameter, & do the same with the seal, before sorting a piece of pipe. Although there are differing outer diameters for the same inner diameter, it would pay to design around the stock sizes.Cheers Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,???????????? With all this talk around seals I'm planning on a making my shaft housing interchangeable where I can experiment with different bearings and seals.?? I'm planning on having a 2" Stainless pipe with a thick wall so I can?machine out for the bearings and seal.? ?Brian?? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 23:20:28 +0000 (UTC) Hank, Auckland's coldest temperature ever was -3 C. ? You Psub people put me on the track of the mechanical seal. So I amjust learning off you guys. One good thing is it is more tolerant of the shaft surface roughness. ?? In the Psubs white paper on Minn kotta conversions it advises plunge grinding the shaft for the lip seals.? At least I won't have to do that with a mechanical seal. ?? My thruster ran another 12hrs yesterday :) I am thinking that the design of my motor may lead it to pump out the oil from the housing. It might not be such an issue with other motors, but certainly something to keep in mind if anyone has a compensation bag with no overpressure. Keep warm! Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 2:26 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,I will go get it later today and take it apart , just started my car to warm it up -21C ? ?I am taking parts off an old sub hull for Elementary and it is chilly work,?brrrr!You know more than me on this subject, I have not had great consistency with keeping water out. ?I have tried many systems with Minn Kota ?and none have been 100% effective. ? My Perry thrusters with updated mechanical seals are 100% so far.Hank On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 3:21 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, yes any insight from that industry would be great, after all there are a lot more submersible pumps around than underwater thrusters. ?? I did post a link on a comparison of oil & air filled pumps. Also posted a link on 2 declassified military papers on compensating & seals for underwater operations. Additionally I have been gatheringinformation from thruster manufacturers as to what seals they used.It was very varied. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Alan,We need to copy the way?submersible pumps are built. ?I will grab the one I have at my other shop?tomorrow and take it apart again. ?I will look at the seal again. ?the big difference and what I think is the most critical, is the size of the compensating diaphragm. ?The rubber diaphragm is quiet large on the pump. ? I have never heard of a submersible well pump loosing the oil.Hank On Monday, December 12, 2016 3:41 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Alan, I have been hearing 4 PSI over ambient on the group. I imagine a dive shop would have to set that rating? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I don't think you are over-thinking. You want to get it right. You are going to be diving in salt water, whereas a lot of the psubbers predominately dive in fresh. Also you have access to deep water & will probably be diving deeper than most people.I have been mulling over this subject & trying to get good information for years. I have swung between air compensation & oil compensation but are pretty convinced oil is the way to go, as far as keeping the motor cool, lubricating seals & bearings & diluting any water that may come in. ?? I don't like the tube wrap method because it only gives you just less than ambient pressure & not the safety of an internal over-pressure. The industry standard is about 4psi overpressure & I am just going on what the underwater industry is doing. ?? Also you will lose oil, as the seals will leak it if they are operating properly & you wil need to re-fill more frequently than if you had a larger compensator. ?? For probably less than $150- you could buy the PR364 relieving regulator & just oil fill the wiring tubes & T in air pressure from this regulator. Alan From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Thanks all, sorry to beat this to death but I tend to get over anal about things as I have been a fabricator for 25 years so if there is something missing on the plans or in question, I come to an all stop and get clarification before proceeding. I blame it on breathing too much mixed gas on deep dives\uD83D\uDE32 Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?? I was thinking about using one of these:?https://www.etrailer.com/ Vehicle-Suspension/Firestone/ F2580.html?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:01:40 -0700 If you were going to go the bladder route - I didn't mean to imply a soft bladder just mounted by itself unprotected. If you use a bladder, put it in a housing of some sort. Just keep it open to sea pressure.Sean On December 12, 2016 11:25:33 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, I would rather use the"hose wrapped around the motor" idea rather than a bladder basically as the hose is a much cleaner look and you don't have to figure out a way to secure the bladder from flapping in the breeze and you said the hose idea was fine in your #1 line but my concern is that though all the things you listed are true, I would think that the volume transfer after diving and warming up the oil in the motor would be (just throwing out numbers without data to support it) something like 5% inward and 95% outward from oil heating and armature rotation? so I would think based on that, that the hose could easily collapse enough " if pre crimped" to give in to the 5% inward flow but I can't see how the hose could expand enough to allow for the 95% outward flow without first spitting out the factory seals?? Sorry to beat this to death but I must be missing something. Would be nice to hear from other! s whohave only used the hose method without a bladder to see if they have had any prop seal problems. Thanks? Rick On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The direction of oil flow is somewhat indeterminate. Heating of the motor, shaft, etc., will displace oil, while heating of the housing will consume oil. Cooling of the shaft will consume oil. Compression and deflection of the housing due to external pressure will displace oil on descent, and consume it on ascent. Contraction / expansion of any air bubbles in the system will do the opposite. Leakage past the seal! (s) willconsume oil. Heating of the oil (operating viscous friction) will displace oil.Using a hose is fine, provided that:1) it is soft and doesn't strongly resist external pressure collapse, and 2) as with any bladder, is only initially filled part way (pre collapsed), so that you have compensation capacity in both directions.Wall flex, as in diameter expansion when full, should never come into play. If you are hitting that limit (completely full tube), then you need to increase the tube volume until you don't.The more air you can get out of the system, the better, as you then don't need the compensation oil to compensate for the volume change as that air expands / contracts under pressure changes. Draw a vacuum before doing the oil fill if you can, but be mindful of not exceeding the capability of your seals. This is another reason why positive bias compensation pressure is helpful - if you have a high point in the line to vent from, you need only crack that open to vent any air until oil seeps from it.Sean On December 10, 2016 1:41:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, Good data to chew on. From what you and the others have said, it sounds like a partially filled airless bladder without hose would be the best way to go. It sounds like the major volume of oil that moves after diving would be in an outward direction, not inward and though the hose idea would allow for "some" inward flow, it just doesn't seem to have the wall flexing capability to accommodate the outward volume.?It's snowing as we speak here in Hawaii Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You can make the hose behave like a bladder by crushing / crimping it to initiate its collapse, and then only filling it to half of its undistorted volume, but then its rigidity or "memory" will make it act like it has bias pressure in the wrong direction - actually pulling the pressure down a bit from ambient, unless you specifically use a really soft tube. You can demonstrate this with a sample of hose, and you don't need an expensive vacuum pump to do it - just pull a vacuum on it with a large syringe, or cap the ends and take it diving. If it doesn't collapse easily with a relatively low external pressure applied, it isn't good for compensation. You want to avoid negative pressure in your compensated space, for obvious reasons. The tube idea works best with a tube which has no structural rigidity, in which case it's just acting like a bladder anyway. Which is why I prefer the bladder embodiment -? encas! ed, itis essentially a sm! all lowpressure hydraulic accumulator, with the precharge side open to sea if compensating at ambient, or biased with gas pressure (or spring pressure) if adding some bias pressure.If you fill a rigid PVC tube completely (rigid in the sense that it resists collapse due to external pressure, even if it is "flexible"), the overpressure when the oil expands will either require the first seal to resist that pressure (which it is oriented the wrong way for in the default configuration), or will force oil past that seal into the inter seal space. If the housing subsequently contracts, oil is demanded from the compensation system, and if the tube can't deliver it, the oil pressure drops, loading the shaft seal if the inter seal pressure has been allowed to build up, which will prematurely wear out the seal.Ergo, best practice with regard to oil compensation is to provide compensation capacity in both directions, so that the compensation pressure is a true function of ambient pressure and neither bottoms out nor hits maximum expansion in operation.? You should also avoid having uncompensated void spaces between seals, as any leakage across a seal will change that pressure and you can't control it. This may be immaterial from a motor protection perspective, because compensation oil, if under biased pressure, will only leak away from the motor housing, but overpressure in the inter seal volume will eventually push oil past the second seal into the water, which is environmentally irresponsible.If you follow my earlier recommendation of using slightly biased pressure in the motor housing, and unbiased pressure between the seals (necessitating two separate compensation bladders), any oil leaking past the first seal (which will occur with increasing severity as that seal wears out) just transfers its volume to the unbiased compensation bladder. By monitoring the change post dive, you have an indication of seal condition. A loss of bias pressure (compensation failure) would indicate a serious leak which you could alarm on if you monitored that, as would monitoring the extremes of bladder displacement with limit switches.? If you want to be really fancy (Cliff?), you could encase the bladders and monitor the entire range of their travel with? displacement transducers to give you real-time seepage monitoring. Similarly, if the sum of both bladder volumes decreases, you know you are losing oil past the second seal to the water. A periodic analysis ! orobservation of the oil in the unbiased bladder will tell you if you are exchanging oil for water at the second seal at constant volume.Sean On December 10, 2016 11:42:44 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Alan, Been tied up for a couple days since this post but thanks for the heat/expansion/volume data as it makes it much easier to comprehend. Based on what I see here, is it safe to assume that due to the amount of expansion of oil, just wrapping the motor several times with the clear PVC hose and connecting the other end to the second barbed fitting on the motor would not work due to the fact that the hose would not expand enough to allow for the volume of expanded oil where as a bladder half filled would work better??Also would like to hear from the others out there who have used only the clear hose to see if they have had any issues with leakage?? Thanks allRick On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's beat me to it, but I'll add that you can usually look upyour compensating?oil's coefficient of thermal expansion,&calculate how much it will be. Engine oil is abou! t .0007.Thatwould mean that if you had a liter of oil (1000cc) & the temperaturewent up by 50 degrees C, then the oil would expand another 35cc.Not a lot given? that you would not require a lot of oil in the thruster.Getting the air out could be a biggerproblem &?it would expand more.In a declassified military document on compensating?I read , it talksabout & demonstrates how to pull a vacuum on a thruster to get allthe air out.Another issue that I mentioned earlier is that all seals leak oil tolubricate themselves, so having a reservoir makes sense.What I am doing is enclosing my motor wiring in a hose & fillingthe motor & hose with oil. In to this I will have a T to a relieving regulator(PR 364) that will pressurize the system with air at 4psi above ambient.Carsten & Emile had all sorts of problems about ! oilexpanding & leakingthen c ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 14 08:16:28 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:16:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor seal References: <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I took a submersible pump apart to find that it has one seal and it is backwards compared to the Minn Kota. ?Maybe the trick is to reverse the seal when the motor is oil filled.Alec, is that what you did, I remember you and Cliff talking about that.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 14 08:53:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 06:53:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor seal In-Reply-To: H9UHc8gg8AOgbH9UIcWePT References: <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141.ref@mail.yahoo.com> H9UHc8gg8AOgbH9UIcWePT Message-ID: <35f4225e-6098-40e6-9e12-b2007e94c1cf@email.android.com> The submersible pump develops an internal pressure equal to the discharge head which must be resisted by the seal. With a lip seal, you have a base resistance due to compression of the elastomer or energizing spring, but then any additional pressure will tend to either load or unload the seal depending on its installation direction. Lip seals with low or zero differential pressure rating may still have a preferred installation direction, depending on whether retaining fluid or excluding contaminants is the greater priority. If you are sealing a pressure differential, you want the lip oriented toward the higher pressure side, so that it is energized by that pressure. If you are sealing equal pressures, than the direction is up to you, but if sealing seawater on one side, orienting the lip in that direction stands a better chance of excluding it, provided you don't have any pressure increase on the inside. With the dual seal arrangement, inner seal faces in, outer seal faces out. Sean On December 14, 2016 6:16:28 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi All,I took a submersible pump apart to find that it has one seal and >it is backwards compared to the Minn Kota. ?Maybe the trick is to >reverse the seal when the motor is oil filled.Alec, is that what you >did, I remember you and Cliff talking about that.Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 14 09:56:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 09:56:57 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor seal In-Reply-To: <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, I don't know anything about submersible pumps, but might it just be that the high pressure is on the inside in that application? For oil compensation I did not reverse the seals. If the pressure differential is less than what the seal can tolerate, I really see no reason to change anything or to provide positive pressure (which could blow a seal out). I would just fill the space between the double seals with grease and that's it. Best, Alec On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 8:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > I took a submersible pump apart to find that it has one seal and it is > backwards compared to the Minn Kota. Maybe the trick is to reverse the > seal when the motor is oil filled. > Alec, is that what you did, I remember you and Cliff talking about that. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 14 10:20:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:20:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor seal In-Reply-To: <35f4225e-6098-40e6-9e12-b2007e94c1cf@email.android.com> References: <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <35f4225e-6098-40e6-9e12-b2007e94c1cf@email.android.com> Message-ID: <724252223.2614205.1481728834901@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,Sorry I should have said the seal is in the pump motor. ?I took an oil filled submersible pump ?motor apart and the seal is in opposite to the Minn Kota. ?The seal is keeping oil in rather than keeping water out. ?Maybe it is because the armature spinning raises internal pressure.Hank On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 6:53 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The submersible pump develops an internal pressure equal to the discharge head which must be resisted by the seal. With a lip seal, you have a base resistance due to compression of the elastomer or energizing spring, but then any additional pressure will tend to either load or unload the seal depending on its installation direction. Lip seals with low or zero differential pressure rating may still have a preferred installation direction, depending on whether retaining fluid or excluding contaminants is the greater priority. If you are sealing a pressure differential, you want the lip oriented toward the higher pressure side, so that it is energized by that pressure. If you are sealing equal pressures, than the direction is up to you, but if sealing seawater on one side, orienting the lip in that direction stands a better chance of excluding it, provided you don't have any pressure increase on the inside.? With the dual seal arrangem! ent,inner seal faces in, outer seal faces out.Sean On December 14, 2016 6:16:28 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I took a submersible pump apart to find that it has one seal and it is backwards compared to the Minn Kota. ?Maybe the trick is to reverse the seal when the motor is oil filled.Alec, is that what you did, I remember you and Cliff talking about that.Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 14 10:25:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:25:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor seal In-Reply-To: References: <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <147594292.2627805.1481729133487@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,There must be a reason the seal in the pump motor is backward to the Minn Kota. ?The pump motor is designed to be oil filled under water and the Minn Kota is designed to be air filled under water. ?If we want the Minn Kota to act the same as the pump motor, it may be?beneficial to copy the pump arrangement.I don't know, this is above my pay grade ;-)Hank On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 7:57 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, I don't know anything about submersible pumps, but might it just be that the high pressure is on the inside in that application? For oil compensation I did not reverse the seals. If the pressure differential is less than what the seal can tolerate, I really see no reason to change anything or to provide positive pressure (which could blow a seal out). I would just fill the space between the double seals with grease and that's it. Best, Alec On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 8:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I took a submersible pump apart to find that it has one seal and it is backwards compared to the Minn Kota.? Maybe the trick is to reverse the seal when the motor is oil filled.Alec, is that what you did, I remember you and Cliff talking about that.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 14 10:46:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:46:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor seal In-Reply-To: <147594292.2627805.1481729133487@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141@mail.yahoo.com> <147594292.2627805.1481729133487@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1917813310.2643438.1481730394814@mail.yahoo.com> One more detail I forgot to mention, there is a spring loaded?diaphragm at the bottom of the oil filled motor that would create a small internal pressure that would help the seal. ?Alan mentioned there is a 4 psi internal pressure on purpose built thrusters, that would coincide with the pump arrangement.Hank On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 8:28 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,There must be a reason the seal in the pump motor is backward to the Minn Kota. ?The pump motor is designed to be oil filled under water and the Minn Kota is designed to be air filled under water. ?If we want the Minn Kota to act the same as the pump motor, it may be?beneficial to copy the pump arrangement.I don't know, this is above my pay grade ;-)Hank On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 7:57 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, I don't know anything about submersible pumps, but might it just be that the high pressure is on the inside in that application? For oil compensation I did not reverse the seals. If the pressure differential is less than what the seal can tolerate, I really see no reason to change anything or to provide positive pressure (which could blow a seal out). I would just fill the space between the double seals with grease and that's it. Best, Alec On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 8:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I took a submersible pump apart to find that it has one seal and it is backwards compared to the Minn Kota.? Maybe the trick is to reverse the seal when the motor is oil filled.Alec, is that what you did, I remember you and Cliff talking about that.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 14 13:58:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 18:58:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor seal In-Reply-To: <1917813310.2643438.1481730394814@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141@mail.yahoo.com> <147594292.2627805.1481729133487@mail.yahoo.com> <1917813310.2643438.1481730394814@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1633533478.3104349.1481741910479@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,is it a simple diaphragm or rolling diaphragm?There are rolling diaphragm compensators with switches to show low oil,that look easy to make.Below are some from Silvercrest. Note that they start at 270cc in size which isreasonably small.AlanOil Compensator Units.Silvercrest / Submersible Motor Engineering supply oil compensator units for subsea vehicles, to suit manned submersibles, ROVs, submarines,? subsea trenchers and? subsea ploughs, and subsea equipment.We can offer a range of oil compensation unit sizes, including a 2.7L Compensator.? 7 x 1/4" NPT (BSPT). SA-HC-0745-MAS.??This is a rolling diaphragm, positive pressure compensator (2700cc capacity), manufactured in corrosion resistant plastic suitable for ROV and tooling applications.These units are particularly suitable for compensating thrusters, compensating oil filled junction boxes, compensating valve packs, and other subsea applications - Size - 270cc, 2700 cc, and 13.5L - Delrin Plastic Construction - Grade 316 Stainless Steel Spring - Adjustable Pressure Relief Valve - Mounting Feet - Low Level Proximity Sensor Option ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 4:46 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor seal One more detail I forgot to mention, there is a spring loaded?diaphragm at the bottom of the oil filled motor that would create a small internal pressure that would help the seal. ?Alan mentioned there is a 4 psi internal pressure on purpose built thrusters, that would coincide with the pump arrangement.Hank On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 8:28 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,There must be a reason the seal in the pump motor is backward to the Minn Kota. ?The pump motor is designed to be oil filled under water and the Minn Kota is designed to be air filled under water. ?If we want the Minn Kota to act the same as the pump motor, it may be?beneficial to copy the pump arrangement.I don't know, this is above my pay grade ;-)Hank On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 7:57 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, I don't know anything about submersible pumps, but might it just be that the high pressure is on the inside in that application? For oil compensation I did not reverse the seals. If the pressure differential is less than what the seal can tolerate, I really see no reason to change anything or to provide positive pressure (which could blow a seal out). I would just fill the space between the double seals with grease and that's it. Best, Alec On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 8:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I took a submersible pump apart to find that it has one seal and it is backwards compared to the Minn Kota.? Maybe the trick is to reverse the seal when the motor is oil filled.Alec, is that what you did, I remember you and Cliff talking about that.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 14 16:26:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 21:26:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor seal In-Reply-To: <1633533478.3104349.1481741910479@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2122431388.2548243.1481721388141@mail.yahoo.com> <147594292.2627805.1481729133487@mail.yahoo.com> <1917813310.2643438.1481730394814@mail.yahoo.com> <1633533478.3104349.1481741910479@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <452906820.2865029.1481750769891@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,It is a simple flat piece of rubber with a spring in the middle, I will send you a picture.Hank On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 11:59 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,is it a simple diaphragm or rolling diaphragm?There are rolling diaphragm compensators with switches to show low oil,that look easy to make.Below are some from Silvercrest. Note that they start at 270cc in size which isreasonably small.AlanOil Compensator Units.Silvercrest / Submersible Motor Engineering supply oil compensator units for subsea vehicles, to suit manned submersibles, ROVs, submarines,? subsea trenchers and? subsea ploughs, and subsea equipment.We can offer a range of oil compensation unit sizes, including a 2.7L Compensator.? 7 x 1/4" NPT (BSPT). SA-HC-0745-MAS.??This is a rolling diaphragm, positive pressure compensator (2700cc capacity), manufactured in corrosion resistant plastic suitable for ROV and tooling applications.These units are particularly suitable for compensating thrusters, compensating oil filled junction boxes, compensating valve packs, and other subsea applications - Size - 270cc, 2700 cc, and 13.5L - Delrin Plastic Construction - Grade 316 Stainless Steel Spring - Adjustable Pressure Relief Valve - Mounting Feet - Low Level Proximity Sensor Option ? ? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 4:46 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor seal One more detail I forgot to mention, there is a spring loaded?diaphragm at the bottom of the oil filled motor that would create a small internal pressure that would help the seal. ?Alan mentioned there is a 4 psi internal pressure on purpose built thrusters, that would coincide with the pump arrangement.Hank On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 8:28 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,There must be a reason the seal in the pump motor is backward to the Minn Kota. ?The pump motor is designed to be oil filled under water and the Minn Kota is designed to be air filled under water. ?If we want the Minn Kota to act the same as the pump motor, it may be?beneficial to copy the pump arrangement.I don't know, this is above my pay grade ;-)Hank On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 7:57 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, I don't know anything about submersible pumps, but might it just be that the high pressure is on the inside in that application? For oil compensation I did not reverse the seals. If the pressure differential is less than what the seal can tolerate, I really see no reason to change anything or to provide positive pressure (which could blow a seal out). I would just fill the space between the double seals with grease and that's it. Best, Alec On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 8:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I took a submersible pump apart to find that it has one seal and it is backwards compared to the Minn Kota.? Maybe the trick is to reverse the seal when the motor is oil filled.Alec, is that what you did, I remember you and Cliff talking about that.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 14 16:30:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 21:30:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator References: <1195303181.2852359.1481751053112.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1195303181.2852359.1481751053112@mail.yahoo.com> Wow , big job, but my manipulator is done and ready for paint. ?I managed to build it so all functions operate at 100 psi or less. ?That means it will be a pretty low pressure system. ?I will only need about 150 psi over ambient plus the cross section of the piston rod.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 14 17:16:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 12:16:08 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator In-Reply-To: <1195303181.2852359.1481751053112@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1195303181.2852359.1481751053112.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195303181.2852359.1481751053112@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, do you have any construction and finished pictures to show? Rick On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 11:30 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Wow , big job, but my manipulator is done and ready for paint. I managed > to build it so all functions operate at 100 psi or less. That means it > will be a pretty low pressure system. I will only need about 150 psi over > ambient plus the cross section of the piston rod. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 14 17:18:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 22:18:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator In-Reply-To: References: <1195303181.2852359.1481751053112.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195303181.2852359.1481751053112@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <678517427.2921368.1481753935002@mail.yahoo.com> Hi RickI posted pictures a couple days ago, but they did not make it here. ?I will assemble the arm tomorrow and take a picture with my proper camera and post.Hank On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 3:16 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, do you have any construction and finished pictures to show? Rick On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 11:30 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Wow , big job, but my manipulator is done and ready for paint.? I managed to build it so all functions operate at 100 psi or less.? That means it will be a pretty low pressure system.? I will only need about 150 psi over ambient plus the cross section of the piston rod.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 11:44:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:44:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45248903.3392195.1481820247966@mail.yahoo.com> First pic of manipulator On Thursday, December 15, 2016 9:40 AM, xxx xxxxx wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0389.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20833 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 11:44:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:44:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1794968567.3385355.1481820290509@mail.yahoo.com> second pic of manipulator On Thursday, December 15, 2016 9:41 AM, xxx xxxxx wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0388.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22328 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 11:45:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:45:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1794968567.3385355.1481820290509@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1794968567.3385355.1481820290509@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <805478661.3396904.1481820318105@mail.yahoo.com> On Thursday, December 15, 2016 9:44 AM, hank pronk wrote: second pic of manipulator On Thursday, December 15, 2016 9:41 AM, xxx xxxxx wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0388.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22328 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 11:45:41 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:45:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <109654081.3391555.1481820341123@mail.yahoo.com> manipulator On Thursday, December 15, 2016 9:41 AM, xxx xxxxx wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0386.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23989 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 11:46:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:46:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1405477251.3373475.1481820364826@mail.yahoo.com> manipulator On Thursday, December 15, 2016 9:42 AM, xxx xxxxx wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0387.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23208 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 11:49:46 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:49:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator References: <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I posted pictures of my new manipulator, not sure if they will make it. ?Can someone confirm that they made it. ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 11:55:11 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:55:11 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Message-ID: <003801d256f4$001809b0$00481d10$@gmail.com> Nuts. I'm not seeing the pictures. They're scrubbed from my online viewing. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 11:56:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:56:24 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Message-ID: <003d01d256f4$2b6da2a0$8248e7e0$@gmail.com> Can you post them in your project area? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 11:59:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:59:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator In-Reply-To: <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1071064736.3829603.1481821194025@mail.yahoo.com> The pictures made it Hank...looks good!!!?Al Secor From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:49 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator Hi All,I posted pictures of my new manipulator, not sure if they will make it. ?Can someone confirm that they made it. ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 11:59:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:59:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <003801d256f4$001809b0$00481d10$@gmail.com> References: <003801d256f4$001809b0$00481d10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1929763257.3419791.1481821196127@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,It might be me, I can send them a different way.Hank On Thursday, December 15, 2016 9:58 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Nuts.? I?m not seeing the pictures.? They?re scrubbed from my online viewing. ?Brian ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 12:04:02 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:04:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator In-Reply-To: <1071064736.3829603.1481821194025@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699@mail.yahoo.com> <1071064736.3829603.1481821194025@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <290022041.3428464.1481821442156@mail.yahoo.com> Thank you Al,Hank On Thursday, December 15, 2016 10:01 AM, Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The pictures made it Hank...looks good!!!?Al Secor From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:49 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator Hi All,I posted pictures of my new manipulator, not sure if they will make it. ?Can someone confirm that they made it. ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 12:08:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:08:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator References: <1192272829.3378526.1481821699869.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1192272829.3378526.1481821699869@mail.yahoo.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0386.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23989 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0387.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23208 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0388.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22328 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0389.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20833 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 12:15:06 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:15:06 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator In-Reply-To: <290022041.3428464.1481821442156@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699@mail.yahoo.com> <1071064736.3829603.1481821194025@mail.yahoo.com> <290022041.3428464.1481821442156@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Looks good hank. On 15 December 2016 at 17:04, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thank you Al, > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 15, 2016 10:01 AM, Al Secor via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The pictures made it Hank...looks good!!! > > Al Secor > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:49 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator > > Hi All, > I posted pictures of my new manipulator, not sure if they will make it. > Can someone confirm that they made it. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 12:14:36 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:14:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1929763257.3419791.1481821196127@mail.yahoo.com> References: <003801d256f4$001809b0$00481d10$@gmail.com> <1929763257.3419791.1481821196127@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <478855181.3452600.1481822076280@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I posted the pics on my Psubs page under Elementary 3000Hank On Thursday, December 15, 2016 10:05 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,It might be me, I can send them a different way.Hank On Thursday, December 15, 2016 9:58 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv1548928720 #yiv1548928720 -- filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv1548928720 p.yiv1548928720MsoNormal, #yiv1548928720 li.yiv1548928720MsoNormal, #yiv1548928720 div.yiv1548928720MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv1548928720 a:link, #yiv1548928720 span.yiv1548928720MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1548928720 a:visited, #yiv1548928720 span.yiv1548928720MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1548928720 span.yiv1548928720EmailStyle17 {color:windowtext;}#yiv1548928720 .yiv1548928720MsoChpDefault {}#yiv1548928720 filtered {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv1548928720 div.yiv1548928720WordSection1 {}#yiv1548928720 Nuts.? I?m not seeing the pictures.? They?re scrubbed from my online viewing. ?Brian ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 12:21:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:21:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator In-Reply-To: <290022041.3428464.1481821442156@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699@mail.yahoo.com> <1071064736.3829603.1481821194025@mail.yahoo.com> <290022041.3428464.1481821442156@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1136355214.3873863.1481822465333@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,they made it all the way to N.Z.Very impressive. Can you do a video of it picking up anegg off your shop floor?Brian, on my Yahoo mail I have to press a button up top before any images will show.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator Thank you Al,Hank On Thursday, December 15, 2016 10:01 AM, Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The pictures made it Hank...looks good!!!?Al Secor From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:49 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator Hi All,I posted pictures of my new manipulator, not sure if they will make it. ?Can someone confirm that they made it. ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 12:52:13 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 09:52:13 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Message-ID: Made it through here. Nice construction!! Keith ?T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles Date: 12/15/16 8:55 AM (GMT-08:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Nuts.? I?m not seeing the pictures.? They?re scrubbed from my online viewing.?Brian?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 13:31:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:31:08 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator In-Reply-To: <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Got em Hank though I can't see a lot of detail as they are sort of small. Can you take a full frame shot of it fully or partially extended? Thanks Rick On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 6:49 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > I posted pictures of my new manipulator, not sure if they will make it. > Can someone confirm that they made it. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 13:42:40 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:42:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator In-Reply-To: References: <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <740718026.3463545.1481827360551@mail.yahoo.com> I am not sure how to make the picture bigger? ? ?When I get it full of oil I will take a video of it operating and picking up a frozen egg ;-)The best part about this set up, is , I can put the whole thing on Gamma. ?Just plug in the control wires and go. ?The pump has its own battery in the oil tank.I will post a picture of the entire assembly later today.Hank On Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:31 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Got em Hank though I can't see a lot of detail as they are sort of small. Can you take a full frame shot of it fully or partially extended?? Thanks Rick On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 6:49 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I posted pictures of my new manipulator, not sure if they will make it.? Can someone confirm that they made it. ?Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 14:15:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 09:15:44 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] manipulator In-Reply-To: <740718026.3463545.1481827360551@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1953949966.3394998.1481820586699@mail.yahoo.com> <740718026.3463545.1481827360551@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds good Hank. As far as making the picture larger, just get close enough to fill the whole frame of the camera and that will do it. It would be nice to see all the working parts better. Good luck with the egg! Rick On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 8:42 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I am not sure how to make the picture bigger? When I get it full of oil > I will take a video of it operating and picking up a frozen egg ;-) > The best part about this set up, is , I can put the whole thing on Gamma. > Just plug in the control wires and go. The pump has its own battery in the > oil tank. > I will post a picture of the entire assembly later today. > Hank > > > On Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:31 AM, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Got em Hank though I can't see a lot of detail as they are sort of small. > Can you take a full frame shot of it fully or partially extended? > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 6:49 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > I posted pictures of my new manipulator, not sure if they will make it. > Can someone confirm that they made it. > Hank > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 15 16:00:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:00:05 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Message-ID: <20161215130005.E7F0ADD3@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 16 04:29:41 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:29:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Test Fail References: <244305439.80976.1481880581881.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <244305439.80976.1481880581881@mail.yahoo.com> My home made brushless thruster failed after 30hrs of in pool run time.The Kelly controller was flashing an error sequence indicating thehall effects sensors had failed. There are hall effect sensors on a board at the end of the motor that send information on the positionof the motor. The board is held on by a large flat nut & had comeloose so the sensors were out of position. Also the sheath of the wiresto the sensor board had melted. Possibly the fact that oil was being thrown out of the thruster housing& up the wiring tube by centrifugal force, caused the motor to over heat &melt the sheathing. ?? The outer can of the motor that rotates (out-runner motor) is only supportedwhere it is press fitted on to the propeller shaft at one end. Some out-runnermotors have a large bearing that supports the cup like other?end of the can. Due to the fact I didn't have a very snug press fit, the can was pulling off center whenthe motor stopped, so that the outer can with the magnets on it was touchingthe stator. This caused it to start roughly. It would center when running.?? The sheathing on the wires running out of the motor, to protect them fromabrasion, were softened & breaking up a bit. The Shell Morlina S2 BL oil I wasusing must be breaking?them down. I can replace this rubber sheath with a heatresistant sheathing (as my other motors have) but can't be sure that this oil won't break down the coating on the motor windings. Maybe I'll change to 10 cst silicone.??On the positive, the general design of the thruster worked well, the motor performed?with comparable or better thrust per Watt than most?commercial thrusters?. The outside of the can never heated up. One day it ran continuously for 13hrs. It started well initially, & could run at slow speeds.?? Am thankful that I could identify a number of issues with just the one test & will have a good think about this over Christmas.Alan??? ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 16 08:59:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 08:59:33 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Test Fail In-Reply-To: <244305439.80976.1481880581881@mail.yahoo.com> References: <244305439.80976.1481880581881.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <244305439.80976.1481880581881@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Congrats Alan, that sounds like a very effective test with actionable conclusions. My suggestion would be to change only one thing at a time in the next iteration. For instance, if you changed the Morlina to silicone AND the sheathing material at the same time, you wouldn't really know whether the issue was the oil or the plastic. Thirty hours strikes me as pretty good endurance for a first run! Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 4:29 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > My home made brushless thruster failed after 30hrs of in pool run time. > The Kelly controller was flashing an error sequence indicating the > hall effects sensors had failed. There are hall effect sensors on a > board at the end of the motor that send information on the position > of the motor. The board is held on by a large flat nut & had come > loose so the sensors were out of position. Also the sheath of the wires > to the sensor board had melted. > Possibly the fact that oil was being thrown out of the thruster housing > & up the wiring tube by centrifugal force, caused the motor to over heat & > melt the sheathing. > The outer can of the motor that rotates (out-runner motor) is only > supported > where it is press fitted on to the propeller shaft at one end. Some > out-runner > motors have a large bearing that supports the cup like other end of the > can. > Due to the fact I didn't have a very snug press fit, the can was pulling > off center when > the motor stopped, so that the outer can with the magnets on it was > touching > the stator. This caused it to start roughly. It would center when running. > The sheathing on the wires running out of the motor, to protect them > from > abrasion, were softened & breaking up a bit. The Shell Morlina S2 BL oil I > was > using must be breaking them down. I can replace this rubber sheath with a > heat > resistant sheathing (as my other motors have) but can't be sure that this > oil won't > break down the coating on the motor windings. Maybe I'll change to 10 cst > silicone. > On the positive, the general design of the thruster worked well, the > motor performed > with comparable or better thrust per Watt than most commercial thrusters . > The outside of the > can never heated up. One day it ran continuously for 13hrs. It started > well initially, & could > run at slow speeds. > Am thankful that I could identify a number of issues with just the one > test & will > have a good think about this over Christmas. > Alan > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 16 18:11:03 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 23:11:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Test Fail In-Reply-To: References: <244305439.80976.1481880581881.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <244305439.80976.1481880581881@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1573781832.555650.1481929863391@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Alec.I am aiming for a couple of hundred hours run time before I will be?happy.Will keep working through this.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 2:59 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Test Fail Congrats Alan, that sounds like a very effective test with actionable conclusions. My suggestion would be to change only one thing at a time in the next iteration. For instance, if you changed the Morlina to silicone AND the sheathing material at the same time, you wouldn't really know whether the issue was the oil or the plastic. Thirty hours strikes me as pretty good endurance for a first run! Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 4:29 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: My home made brushless thruster failed after 30hrs of in pool run time.The Kelly controller was flashing an error sequence indicating thehall effects sensors had failed. There are hall effect sensors on a board at the end of the motor that send information on the positionof the motor. The board is held on by a large flat nut & had comeloose so the sensors were out of position. Also the sheath of the wiresto the sensor board had melted. Possibly the fact that oil was being thrown out of the thruster housing& up the wiring tube by centrifugal force, caused the motor to over heat &melt the sheathing. ?? The outer can of the motor that rotates (out-runner motor) is only supportedwhere it is press fitted on to the propeller shaft at one end. Some out-runnermotors have a large bearing that supports the cup like other?end of the can. Due to the fact I didn't have a very snug press fit, the can was pulling off center whenthe motor stopped, so that the outer can with the magnets on it was touchingthe stator. This caused it to start roughly. It would center when running.?? The sheathing on the wires running out of the motor, to protect them fromabrasion, were softened & breaking up a bit. The Shell Morlina S2 BL oil I wasusing must be breaking?them down. I can replace this rubber sheath with a heatresistant sheathing (as my other motors have) but can't be sure that this oil won't break down the coating on the motor windings. Maybe I'll change to 10 cst silicone.??On the positive, the general design of the thruster worked well, the motor performed?with comparable or better thrust per Watt than most?commercial thrusters?. The outside of the can never heated up. One day it ran continuously for 13hrs. It started well initially, & could run at slow speeds.?? Am thankful that I could identify a number of issues with just the one test & will have a good think about this over Christmas.Alan??? ?? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 16 18:01:23 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 23:01:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator References: <1816964158.589769.1481929283816.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1816964158.589769.1481929283816@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I am looking for a penetrator supplier, ?I am hoping to find male ends for some penetrators I have. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 16 19:49:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:49:24 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator Message-ID: <20161216164924.E7F37893@m0087792.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 16 20:46:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:46:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator In-Reply-To: <20161216164924.E7F37893@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20161216164924.E7F37893@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: <136941692.614892.1481939204998@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,?I try to have as much?separation as possible just to ensure they don't make contact, but 1\16 inch has worked fine for me. ?If you have 4 rods it will be?crowded for putting wire connectors on. ?You can always bend the rods to make clearance also. ?Hank On Friday, December 16, 2016 5:49 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?? Starting to work on my electrical penetrators for my motor pods?.?? I need to run 4? -?1/4"? copper threaded rods thru a penetrator? what kind of separation?between them is adequate ?? or should I break it up into two penetrators??Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 23:01:23 +0000 (UTC) Hi All,I am looking for a penetrator supplier, ?I am hoping to find male ends for some penetrators I have. Hank_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 16 20:56:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 15:56:10 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator In-Reply-To: <136941692.614892.1481939204998@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20161216164924.E7F37893@m0087792.ppops.net> <136941692.614892.1481939204998@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Brian I am using two each 1/8" copper rods on my Minn-Kotta's which I am guessing will equal the same as the 10 gauge wire they use and not knowing how resistant epoxy is to conducting current, I am going with an 1/8" separation and also wrapping both rods with electrical tape to be safe. Rick On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 3:46 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Brian, > I try to have as much separation as possible just to ensure they don't > make contact, but 1\16 inch has worked fine for me. If you have 4 rods it > will be crowded for putting wire connectors on. You can always bend the > rods to make clearance also. > Hank > > > On Friday, December 16, 2016 5:49 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank, Starting to work on my electrical penetrators for my motor > pods . I need to run 4 - 1/4" copper threaded rods thru a penetrator > what kind of separation between them is adequate ? or should I break it up > into two penetrators? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 23:01:23 +0000 (UTC) > > Hi All, > I am looking for a penetrator supplier, I am hoping to find male ends for > some penetrators I have. > > > Hank > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 16 21:06:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 02:06:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator In-Reply-To: References: <20161216164924.E7F37893@m0087792.ppops.net> <136941692.614892.1481939204998@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1618737807.633722.1481940415849@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I should clarify, I have had as little as 1\16 gap but that was for low amp ?wires. ?I assume with 1\4 inch rods you will have 75 ?amps or so. ?In that case I would go with 1\4 inch gap. ?I would worry that if they are closer the heat from two rods in close proximity may effect the epoxy. ? 1\8 is probably good also just depends on how many amps your running through.Hank On Friday, December 16, 2016 6:56 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: BrianI am using two each 1/8" copper rods on my Minn-Kotta's which I am guessing will equal the same as the 10 gauge wire they use and not knowing how resistant epoxy is to conducting current, I am going with an 1/8" separation and also wrapping both rods with electrical tape to be safe. Rick On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 3:46 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,?I try to have as much?separation as possible just to ensure they don't make contact, but 1\16 inch has worked fine for me.? If you have 4 rods it will be?crowded for putting wire connectors on.? You can always bend the rods to make clearance also. ?Hank On Friday, December 16, 2016 5:49 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?? Starting to work on my electrical penetrators for my motor pods?.?? I need to run 4? -?1/4"? copper threaded rods thru a penetrator? what kind of separation?between them is adequate ?? or should I break it up into two penetrators??Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 23:01:23 +0000 (UTC) Hi All,I am looking for a penetrator supplier, ?I am hoping to find male ends for some penetrators I have. Hank______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 16 21:17:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 18:17:37 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator Message-ID: <20161216181737.E7F63FC3@m0087798.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 16 22:00:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 22:00:42 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator In-Reply-To: <1816964158.589769.1481929283816@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1816964158.589769.1481929283816.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1816964158.589769.1481929283816@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Try Subconn, because if you find one that works they give PSUBS members a 20% discount. Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 6:01 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > I am looking for a penetrator supplier, I am hoping to find male ends for > some penetrators I have. > > > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 16 22:02:39 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 22:02:39 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator In-Reply-To: <20161216164924.E7F37893@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20161216164924.E7F37893@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian, If these are power penetrators and memory serves, ABS stipulates that each pole should go through a separate penetrator rather than separate conductors within the same one. Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, Starting to work on my electrical penetrators for my motor > pods . I need to run 4 - 1/4" copper threaded rods thru a penetrator > what kind of separation between them is adequate ? or should I break it up > into two penetrators? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 23:01:23 +0000 (UTC) > > Hi All, > I am looking for a penetrator supplier, I am hoping to find male ends for > some penetrators I have. > > > Hank > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 17 00:13:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 05:13:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator In-Reply-To: References: <20161216164924.E7F37893@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: <755640790.684485.1481951611052@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, Alec,from memory GL says that the battery + & - should go throughseparate penetrators but doesn't stipulate this for anything else.This makes sense, because if there was a short, & unless there was a fuse in thebattery pod, then you could have a battery melt down.Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator Hi Brian, If these are power penetrators and memory serves, ABS stipulates that each pole should go through a separate penetrator rather than separate conductors within the same one. Best, Alec On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?? Starting to work on my electrical penetrators for my motor pods?.?? I need to run 4? -?1/4"? copper threaded rods thru a penetrator? what kind of separation?between them is adequate ?? or should I break it up into two penetrators??Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 23:01:23 +0000 (UTC) Hi All,I am looking for a penetrator supplier, ?I am hoping to find male ends for some penetrators I have. Hank______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 17 11:37:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 08:37:53 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator Message-ID: <20161217083753.BB3F7BE@m0087792.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 17 12:17:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 12:17:34 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator In-Reply-To: <20161217083753.BB3F7BE@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20161217083753.BB3F7BE@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: I just checked ABS and the separate penetrator rule only applies to the penetrations for batteries outside the pressure hull. With a motor supplied from inside you would have a way to cut the power. That said, obviously you will still want to insulate everything to prevent accidental shorts, because if you had to cut power to the penetrator you would be forgoing your propulsion. Best, Alec On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alan, Alec, My batteries are inside, this would be power going to the > motor. It would be fused before going to the motors. Is the individual > penetrators only for a exterior battery pod? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator > Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 05:13:31 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, Alec, > from memory GL says that the battery + & - should go through > separate penetrators but doesn't stipulate this for anything else. > This makes sense, because if there was a short, & unless there was a fuse > in the > battery pod, then you could have a battery melt down. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, December 17, 2016 4:02 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator > > Hi Brian, > > If these are power penetrators and memory serves, ABS stipulates that each > pole should go through a separate penetrator rather than separate > conductors within the same one. > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hank, Starting to work on my electrical penetrators for my motor > pods . I need to run 4 - 1/4" copper threaded rods thru a penetrator > what kind of separation between them is adequate ? or should I break it up > into two penetrators? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 23:01:23 +0000 (UTC) > > Hi All, > I am looking for a penetrator supplier, I am hoping to find male ends for > some penetrators I have. > > > Hank > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 17 12:39:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 09:39:55 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] penetrator Message-ID: <20161217093955.BB5E523@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 18 16:33:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:33:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: arm video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <260915667.1227017.1482096835000@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,Here is a video of my new arm operating. ?I don't have the control wires hooked up, just touching wires to activate control functions. On Sunday, December 18, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oAV8lDwHpA&t=22s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-12-18 at 2.31 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19917 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 18 16:38:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:38:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1550032019.1231612.1482097104965@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All, Here is a video of my new arm operating.Hank Show original message On Sunday, December 18, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oAV8lDwHpA&t=22s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-12-18 at 2.31 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19917 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 18 16:53:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 08:53:57 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1550032019.1231612.1482097104965@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1550032019.1231612.1482097104965@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Great work Hank, that's awesome!! On 19 Dec 2016 8:43 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, Here is a video of my new arm operating. > Hank > > > Show original message > On Sunday, December 18, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oAV8lDwHpA&t=22s > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-12-18 at 2.31 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19917 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 18 17:05:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 17:05:51 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Career advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey everyone, my name is River Dolfi, for those who didn't meet me at the last convention, have been reading this forum for almost 2 years now and have been interested in building my own sub for many years before that. I will be graduating soon with a mechanical engineering degree from Penn State, and I'm looking for a career after graduation. I'd love to get paid doing junior engineering work on subs, or ROV's, ADS's, AUV's and the like. I know several psubbers are professionals in the field, or have connections that do. Does anyone have any advice on how to get my foot in the door? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 18 18:12:27 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 23:12:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: arm video In-Reply-To: <260915667.1227017.1482096835000@mail.yahoo.com> References: <260915667.1227017.1482096835000@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1955284790.1329801.1482102747532@mail.yahoo.com> Very good Hank,it looks like a bought one!Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 10:33 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: arm video Hi All,Here is a video of my new arm operating. ?I don't have the control wires hooked up, just touching wires to activate control functions. On Sunday, December 18, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oAV8lDwHpA&t=22s _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-12-18 at 2.31 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19917 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 18 18:26:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 17:26:55 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Career_advice?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161218232655.32747.qmail@server268.com> I have found besides owning your own business in the underwater industry, it is all bout who you know. I would recommend doing lots and lots of networking. Right now the oil industry is way down meaning diving jobs are lacking, but there are other fields for sure. Going to conventions and getting your name out there is a great way to start. Hopefully the oil industry will pick up and with all the people who left diving there will be an abundance of jobs. You can always look into the south China sea and work for China with all the underwater precious metal mining, but there is a bit of a scary factor there. Thank you, Scott Waters > -------Original Message------- > From: River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Career advice > Sent: Dec 18 '16 16:07 > > Hey everyone, my name is River Dolfi, for those who didn't meet me at > the last convention, have been reading this forum for almost 2 years > now and have been interested in building my own sub for many years > before that. > > I will be graduating soon with a mechanical engineering degree from > Penn State, and I'm looking for a career after graduation. I'd love to > get paid doing junior engineering work on subs, or ROV's, ADS's, AUV's > and the like. > > I know several psubbers are professionals in the field, or have > connections that do. Does anyone have any advice on how to get my foot > in the door? > ------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 18 19:07:02 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 19:07:02 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Career advice In-Reply-To: <20161218232655.32747.qmail@server268.com> Message-ID: <159146728c7-4a9f-d664@webprd-a96.mail.aol.com> An M.E. diploma from Penn State is a pretty nice arrow to have in your quiver. Being shop savvy is a handy thing, too. When you start flooding the web with resumes, think about the sub-categories. ROVs are about half vendor supplied component packages (manipulators, power packs, thrusters, buoyancy packages, etc. are rarely built in-house). There are lots of ways to skin that particular cat. If, on the other hand, you are interested in practical application and job specificity, think about the ROV pilot's school in Houston, or a jr. engineer job at somewhere like WHOI or MBARI. I'd send a resume to Triton, too. And Nuytco. Of course, the real deal is to get to work somewhere so you can limber up those well educated engineering muscles. Experience in your specialty counts. Any experience.You'll be way past that "I'm going to be an M.E. thing." You'll BE one, and that is a very cool thing, indeed. I'm jealous. Best of luck, Vance Bradley -----Original Message----- From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 18, 2016 6:27 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Career advice I have found besides owning your own business in the underwater industry, it is all bout who you know. I would recommend doing lots and lots of networking. Right now the oil industry is way down meaning diving jobs are lacking, but there are other fields for sure. Going to conventions and getting your name out there is a great way to start. Hopefully the oil industry will pick up and with all the people who left diving there will be an abundance of jobs. You can always look into the south China sea and work for China with all the underwater precious metal mining, but there is a bit of a scary factor there. Thank you, Scott Waters > -------Original Message------- > From: River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Career advice > Sent: Dec 18 '16 16:07 > > Hey everyone, my name is River Dolfi, for those who didn't meet me at > the last convention, have been reading this forum for almost 2 years > now and have been interested in building my own sub for many years > before that. > > I will be graduating soon with a mechanical engineering degree from > Penn State, and I'm looking for a career after graduation. I'd love to > get paid doing junior engineering work on subs, or ROV's, ADS's, AUV's > and the like. > > I know several psubbers are professionals in the field, or have > connections that do. Does anyone have any advice on how to get my foot > in the door? > ------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 18 19:07:46 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 19:07:46 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: arm video In-Reply-To: <1955284790.1329801.1482102747532@mail.yahoo.com> References: <260915667.1227017.1482096835000@mail.yahoo.com> <1955284790.1329801.1482102747532@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I second that! Particularly the bit just before the pincers, I liked the look of that and it doesn't look like a home brew at all. Best, Alec On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 6:12 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Very good Hank, > it looks like a bought one! > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, December 19, 2016 10:33 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: arm video > > Hi All, > Here is a video of my new arm operating. I don't have the control wires > hooked up, just touching wires to activate control functions. > > > On Sunday, December 18, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oAV8lDwHpA&t=22s > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-12-18 at 2.31 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19917 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Dec 18 19:19:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 00:19:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: arm video In-Reply-To: References: <260915667.1227017.1482096835000@mail.yahoo.com> <1955284790.1329801.1482102747532@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1752239756.1294354.1482106796048@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,The part that opens the pinchers is not home made, I bought a part on Ebay and modified it. ?It is some sort of air gripper, I just cut away what I did not need and added the air cylinder. ?That was very easy and quick. ?In fact it is half way to having a rotary wrist already. ?I don't have a 5 bank valve or it would have a wrist. ?The valve bank can run 2K and that cuts into my diving budget for the spring dives. ? ?Hank On Sunday, December 18, 2016 5:08 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I second that! Particularly the bit just before the pincers, I liked the look of that and it doesn't look like a home brew at all. Best, Alec On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 6:12 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Very good Hank,it looks like a bought one!Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 10:33 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: arm video Hi All,Here is a video of my new arm operating.? I don't have the control wires hooked up, just touching wires to activate control functions. On Sunday, December 18, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=6oAV8lDwHpA&t=22s ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-12-18 at 2.31 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19917 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 21 12:40:02 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 17:40:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <565634932.376689.1482342002316@mail.yahoo.com> Here is a picture of the first two cowls that fill the space between the new HP tanks and the sphere. ?First I made them with cardboard, then?transferred the shape to plastic sheet. ?Then reinforced with a wood frame, then?fibreglass three layers, then remove from the sub and fibreglass the inside for the final part. ?The whole process takes two days, mostly waiting for drying.Now I am adding air chambers to the MBT so it behaves better when transitioning from surface to submerged. ?Also I am glassing a hole through the MBT for the vertical thrusters to sit in, like Gamma has.Hank On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 10:31 AM, xxx xxxxx wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0401.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 21773 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 21 12:53:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 09:53:55 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Message-ID: <20161221095355.BB5F3BC@m0087794.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 21 14:09:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 14:09:56 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Message-ID: <1ca0ed6.576dda72.458c2d84@aol.com> Brian, Hank is really a cyborg which is partially a CNC machine. Secret is out. Jim In a message dated 12/21/2016 11:54:21 A.M. Central Standard Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Holy shit Hank ! I wish I cold work that fast! You must go into a time warp or something ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 17:40:02 +0000 (UTC) Here is a picture of the first two cowls that fill the space between the new HP tanks and the sphere. First I made them with cardboard, then transferred the shape to plastic sheet. Then reinforced with a wood frame, then fibreglass three layers, then remove from the sub and fibreglass the inside for the final part. The whole process takes two days, mostly waiting for drying. Now I am adding air chambers to the MBT so it behaves better when transitioning from surface to submerged. Also I am glassing a hole through the MBT for the vertical thrusters to sit in, like Gamma has. Hank On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 10:31 AM, xxx xxxxx wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mip://26e923a0/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 21 19:40:20 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 18:40:20 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?More_for_sale?= Message-ID: <20161222004020.10216.qmail@server268.com> Hey guys, I am adding another item to my for sale list. It is a scuba compressor by Alkin model W31 and only has 50 hours on it. I am really needing to start selling stuff to fund Pisces so I am going to sell it cheap at only $2500. I am also lowering the prices on some of the stuff for sale. If it helps, know that all your purchases fund Pisces VI. *KW-350 "Trustworthy" submarine with trailer, 30' trailer extender, surface support box, filming system, sonar, underwater comms with surface support station, GPS, 72 hour life support system and soda sorb, rescue buoy, lighting system that includes four 2800 lumen work lights and one 10,000 lumen head light. Will deliver (Contact me for price) *K-350 Rekon hull, hatch, battery pods, main ballast tanks, cart to roll submarine in shop, and some extra parts. I plan to sand blast and put gray primer coat on before the buyer takes it (Asking $18,000) *lowered price by $2000 *72 Volt 12 hp motor with controller, pressure housing, and brass prop, and 72 volt charger ($1000) *9"x22" Jet Lathe with about $1,000 worth of tooling. (Asking $1,900) *8 blocks of 1000' syntactic foam ($200) *Box of acrylic viewports ($100) *Several pressure housings for lights or cameras $25 each *Plasma CAM machine (4x4) with computer, plasma machine, existing stock of metal sheets, and existing business contracts and lots of business contract links ($10,000) *lowered price by $2,000 *Mermaid Submarine VBT with valve (160lbs of available negative buoyancy) $100 *Hydraulic main motor and prop with 2 vertical motors in housings (complete system for small submarine) $500 *2 Hymac thrusters 120VDC and 5 HP with extra parts ($6,000) *lowered price by $4000 * Lots of large Kort nozzles ($20 each) I will also accept offers on any items or if you are buying several items I will lower the price for lot purchases Thank you, Scott Waters From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 21 22:09:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 19:09:51 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Amazing O ring lubricant Message-ID: <20161221190951.BB5A809@m0087794.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 11:08:02 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 16:08:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium References: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama. ?The sub is WAY to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the titanium heads off the pressure hull. ?Does anyone have experience with cutting heavy titanium?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 12:39:40 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 07:39:40 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium In-Reply-To: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1494529143.935405.1482509282360@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Do you know how thick it is? I would think a plasma cutter would work or a thermal lance but that leave a pretty crude cut. Rick On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 6:08 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama. The sub is WAY > to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the > titanium heads off the pressure hull. Does anyone have experience with > cutting heavy titanium? > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 13:38:06 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 18:38:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium In-Reply-To: References: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1494529143.935405.1482509282360@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <108234058.1025776.1482518286188@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,It is 2 inches thick, I think.Hank On Friday, December 23, 2016 10:40 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know how thick it is? I would think a plasma cutter would work or a thermal lance but that leave a pretty crude cut. Rick On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 6:08 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama.? The sub is WAY to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the titanium heads off the pressure hull.? Does anyone have experience with cutting heavy titanium?Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 14:03:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 09:03:08 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium In-Reply-To: <108234058.1025776.1482518286188@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1494529143.935405.1482509282360@mail.yahoo.com> <108234058.1025776.1482518286188@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Don't think you are going to find a mobile plasma cutter that will do that. Rick On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:38 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > It is 2 inches thick, I think. > Hank > > > On Friday, December 23, 2016 10:40 AM, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > > Do you know how thick it is? I would think a plasma cutter would work or a > thermal lance but that leave a pretty crude cut. > > Rick > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 6:08 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama. The sub is WAY > to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the > titanium heads off the pressure hull. Does anyone have experience with > cutting heavy titanium? > Hank > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 14:10:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 11:10:33 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium In-Reply-To: KSTOcHAAjek3zKSTPc2NBW References: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360.ref@mail.yahoo.com> KSTOcHAAjek3zKSTPc2NBW Message-ID: <3a3556b2-70ff-4050-94c6-8ff1e34baf4d@email.android.com> You need to be careful working with titanium in order to avoid setting it on fire. Large pieces which are effective heat sinks are less of a problem, but machining chips can ignite readily and will burn vigorously because the combustion product (titanium oxide) is so stable. You can flame cut, plasma cut, etc., but keep a class D extinguisher handy just in case. Sean On December 23, 2016 8:08:02 AM PST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi All,Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama. ?The >sub is WAY to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how >to cut the titanium heads off the pressure hull. ?Does anyone have >experience with cutting heavy titanium?Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 14:12:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 19:12:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium In-Reply-To: References: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1494529143.935405.1482509282360@mail.yahoo.com> <108234058.1025776.1482518286188@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8170504.1040032.1482520335439@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,This will not be easy ? ;-) ? I am not even?positive it is Titanium. ?I think I read somewhere that it is but I can't find that info now grrrr.Hank On Friday, December 23, 2016 12:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Don't think you are going to find a mobile plasma cutter that will do that. Rick On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:38 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,It is 2 inches thick, I think.Hank On Friday, December 23, 2016 10:40 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know how thick it is? I would think a plasma cutter would work or a thermal lance but that leave a pretty crude cut. Rick On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 6:08 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama.? The sub is WAY to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the titanium heads off the pressure hull.? Does anyone have experience with cutting heavy titanium?Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 14:14:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 19:14:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium In-Reply-To: <3a3556b2-70ff-4050-94c6-8ff1e34baf4d@email.android.com> References: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <3a3556b2-70ff-4050-94c6-8ff1e34baf4d@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1805706391.1008362.1482520498160@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,Looking at the pictures it may make more sense to leave it as is but put it on a huge diet to make it?manageable. ?Got to get it to 20 tons from 38Hank On Friday, December 23, 2016 12:10 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You need to be careful working with titanium in order to avoid setting it on fire. Large pieces which are effective heat sinks are less of a problem, but machining chips can ignite readily and will burn vigorously because the combustion product (titanium oxide) is so stable.You can flame cut, plasma cut, etc., but keep a class D extinguisher handy just in case.Sean On December 23, 2016 8:08:02 AM PST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama. ?The sub is WAY to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the titanium heads off the pressure hull. ?Does anyone have experience with cutting heavy titanium?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 15:23:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 21:23:38 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium In-Reply-To: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1494529143.935405.1482509282360@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <097101d25d5a$72356f30$56a04d90$@nl> Hank , As mentioned is plasma the only way. But that thicknes.. Welding should be done in a shielded environment (glove box filled with Argon/Helium Machining is difficult tough? Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 23 december 2016 17:08 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium Hi All, Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama. The sub is WAY to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the titanium heads off the pressure hull. Does anyone have experience with cutting heavy titanium? Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 15:27:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 12:27:04 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium Message-ID: Oh such sacrilege, Hank why do that to a submarine. Just find one that is smaller and futs your needs. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Date: 12/23/16 11:03 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium Hank, Don't think you are going to find a mobile plasma cutter that will do that. Rick On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:38 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,It is 2 inches thick, I think.Hank On Friday, December 23, 2016 10:40 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know how thick it is? I would think a plasma cutter would work or a thermal lance but that leave a pretty crude cut. Rick On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 6:08 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama.? The sub is WAY to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the titanium heads off the pressure hull.? Does anyone have experience with cutting heavy titanium?Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 15:27:13 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 20:27:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium In-Reply-To: <097101d25d5a$72356f30$56a04d90$@nl> References: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1494529143.935405.1482509282360@mail.yahoo.com> <097101d25d5a$72356f30$56a04d90$@nl> Message-ID: <266826877.1057840.1482524833507@mail.yahoo.com> Emile,I think I had a bad idea to cut it down. ?I think it should stay in tact, and if I can get it down to 20 tons, I can get it home easily.Hank On Friday, December 23, 2016 1:23 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv5649423441 #yiv5649423441 -- _filtered #yiv5649423441 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5649423441 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5649423441 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5649423441 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv5649423441 #yiv5649423441 p.yiv5649423441MsoNormal, #yiv5649423441 li.yiv5649423441MsoNormal, #yiv5649423441 div.yiv5649423441MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv5649423441 a:link, #yiv5649423441 span.yiv5649423441MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5649423441 a:visited, #yiv5649423441 span.yiv5649423441MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5649423441 span.yiv5649423441E-mailStijl17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv5649423441 .yiv5649423441MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv5649423441 {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}#yiv5649423441 div.yiv5649423441WordSection1 {}#yiv5649423441 Hank , As mentioned is plasma the only way. But that thicknes.. ?Welding should be done in a shielded environment ?(glove box filled with Argon/HeliumMachining is difficult tough? ?Emile ?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 23 december 2016 17:08 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium ?Hi All,Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama. ?The sub is WAY to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the titanium heads off the pressure hull. ?Does anyone have experience with cutting heavy titanium?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 15:32:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 20:32:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1285741294.1068409.1482525175407@mail.yahoo.com> Keith,Not easy to find small subs that go 2,000m ?and besides what fun would that be lol. ?Right now the sub could go to scrap, so whatever I do is better than melting it.Hank On Friday, December 23, 2016 1:27 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oh such sacrilege, Hank why do that to a submarine. Just find one that is smaller and futs your needs. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Date: 12/23/16 11:03 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium Hank, Don't think you are going to find a mobile plasma cutter that will do that. Rick On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:38 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,It is 2 inches thick, I think.Hank On Friday, December 23, 2016 10:40 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know how thick it is? I would think a plasma cutter would work or a thermal lance but that leave a pretty crude cut. Rick On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 6:08 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama.? The sub is WAY to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the titanium heads off the pressure hull.? Does anyone have experience with cutting heavy titanium?Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 17:31:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 16:31:35 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium In-Reply-To: <266826877.1057840.1482524833507@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1494529143.935405.1482509282360.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1494529143.935405.1482509282360@mail.yahoo.com> <097101d25d5a$72356f30$56a04d90$@nl> <266826877.1057840.1482524833507@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42D04925-7E62-41F4-B9B1-DBAB5E5F5401@snyderemail.com> Pictures of the sub? Super exciting! > On Dec 23, 2016, at 2:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Emile, > I think I had a bad idea to cut it down. I think it should stay in tact, and if I can get it down to 20 tons, I can get it home easily. > Hank > > > On Friday, December 23, 2016 1:23 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank , As mentioned is plasma the only way. But that thicknes.. > > Welding should be done in a shielded environment (glove box filled with Argon/Helium > Machining is difficult tough? > > Emile > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: vrijdag 23 december 2016 17:08 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium > > Hi All, > Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama. The sub is WAY to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the titanium heads off the pressure hull. Does anyone have experience with cutting heavy titanium? > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 17:53:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 22:53:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <128072166.1082003.1482533617223@mail.yahoo.com> sever-2 submarine when new On Friday, December 23, 2016 3:52 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.google.ca/search?q=sever-2+submarine+images&biw=1360&bih=735&tbm=isch&imgil=7MlbakseoAdduM%3A%3BEkyuWyENfqvisM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcyberneticzoo.com%252Funderwater-robotics%252F1968-north-2-sever-2-submersible-soviet%252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=7MlbakseoAdduM%3A%2CEkyuWyENfqvisM%2C_&usg=__YnQONkXh2h0l0IUwIF5_yOK62rY= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-12-23 at 3.51 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7625 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 17:54:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 22:54:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118290004.1108782.1482533666930@mail.yahoo.com> Sever-2 Submarine as it sits todayHank On Friday, December 23, 2016 3:53 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://files.balancer.ru/forums/attaches/2014/02/02-3356571-sever-2-bis-ssha-8.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums.airbase.ru/2014/02/t20034_85--issledovatelskie-podvodnye-apparaty.html&docid=WGibX3W06Z1eHM&tbnid=fooynjQckj_rNM:&vet=1&w=2118&h=1395&bih=735&biw=1360&q=sever-2 submarine images&ved=0ahUKEwj7zITts4vRAhVM0oMKHWucDds4ZBAzCF4oWTBZ&iact=mrc&uact=8 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Image 2016-12-23 at 3.52 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29925 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 18:05:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 17:05:31 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1118290004.1108782.1482533666930@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1118290004.1108782.1482533666930@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2D13D647-C91B-4FFB-8C38-3B027C9A60F9@snyderemail.com> Cool!!! > On Dec 23, 2016, at 4:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Sever-2 Submarine as it sits today > Hank > > On Friday, December 23, 2016 3:53 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://files.balancer.ru/forums/attaches/2014/02/02-3356571-sever-2-bis-ssha-8.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums.airbase.ru/2014/02/t20034_85--issledovatelskie-podvodnye-apparaty.html&docid=WGibX3W06Z1eHM&tbnid=fooynjQckj_rNM:&vet=1&w=2118&h=1395&bih=735&biw=1360&q=sever-2 submarine images&ved=0ahUKEwj7zITts4vRAhVM0oMKHWucDds4ZBAzCF4oWTBZ&iact=mrc&uact=8 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 18:07:17 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 18:07:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sever 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Being in Bayou Le Batrie, your best bet would be to put it on a barge and have it towed up the intracoastal waterway and then the Mississippi. It would actually be convenient where im at in Pittsburgh. Then you could play Hunt for Red October and Huck Finn all at the same time On Dec 23, 2016 5:58 PM, "via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: cutting Titanium (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) 2. Re: cutting Titanium (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) 3. Fw: (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 20:32:55 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium Message-ID: <1285741294.1068409.1482525175407 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Keith,Not easy to find small subs that go 2,000m ?and besides what fun would that be lol. ?Right now the sub could go to scrap, so whatever I do is better than melting it.Hank On Friday, December 23, 2016 1:27 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Oh such sacrilege, Hank why do that to a submarine. Just find one that is smaller and futs your needs. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Date: 12/23/16 11:03 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium Hank, Don't think you are going to find a mobile plasma cutter that will do that. Rick On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:38 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Rick,It is 2 inches thick, I think.Hank On Friday, December 23, 2016 10:40 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know how thick it is? I would think a plasma cutter would work or a thermal lance but that leave a pretty crude cut. Rick On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 6:08 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama.? The sub is WAY to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the titanium heads off the pressure hull.? Does anyone have experience with cutting heavy titanium?Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 16:31:35 -0600 From: Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium Message-ID: <42D04925-7E62-41F4-B9B1-DBAB5E5F5401 at snyderemail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Pictures of the sub? Super exciting! > On Dec 23, 2016, at 2:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Emile, > I think I had a bad idea to cut it down. I think it should stay in tact, and if I can get it down to 20 tons, I can get it home easily. > Hank > > > On Friday, December 23, 2016 1:23 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank , As mentioned is plasma the only way. But that thicknes.. > > Welding should be done in a shielded environment (glove box filled with Argon/Helium > Machining is difficult tough? > > Emile > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: vrijdag 23 december 2016 17:08 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutting Titanium > > Hi All, > Looks like I can buy the old Sever submarine in Alabama. The sub is WAY to big to be practical, so I am am in need of advice on how to cut the titanium heads off the pressure hull. Does anyone have experience with cutting heavy titanium? > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 22:53:37 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Message-ID: <128072166.1082003.1482533617223 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" sever-2 submarine when new On Friday, December 23, 2016 3:52 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.google.ca/search?q=sever-2+submarine+images& biw=1360&bih=735&tbm=isch&imgil=7MlbakseoAdduM%3A% 3BEkyuWyENfqvisM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcyberneticzoo.com% 252Funderwater-robotics%252F1968-north-2-sever-2-submersible-soviet%252F& source=iu&pf=m&fir=7MlbakseoAdduM%3A%2CEkyuWyENfqvisM%2C_&usg=__ YnQONkXh2h0l0IUwIF5_yOK62rY= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-12-23 at 3.51 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7625 bytes Desc: not available URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 42, Issue 92 ***************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 18:14:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 18:14:31 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1118290004.1108782.1482533666930@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1118290004.1108782.1482533666930@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In that picture it looks for all the world like a steam locomotive! Alec On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 5:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Sever-2 Submarine as it sits today > Hank > > On Friday, December 23, 2016 3:53 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://files.balancer. > ru/forums/attaches/2014/02/02-3356571-sever-2-bis-ssha-8. > jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums.airbase.ru/2014/02/t20034_85-- > issledovatelskie-podvodnye-apparaty.html&docid=WGibX3W06Z1eHM&tbnid= > fooynjQckj_rNM:&vet=1&w=2118&h=1395&bih=735&biw=1360&q=sever-2 submarine > images&ved=0ahUKEwj7zITts4vRAhVM0oMKHWucDds4ZBAzCF4oWTBZ&iact=mrc&uact=8 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-12-23 at 3.52 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29925 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 18:16:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 23:16:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: <1118290004.1108782.1482533666930@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <287491602.1094695.1482535008711@mail.yahoo.com> If it were a steam?locomotive, my wife would have already bought it lolHank On Friday, December 23, 2016 4:14 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: In that picture it looks for all the world like a steam locomotive! Alec On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 5:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sever-2 Submarine as it sits todayHank On Friday, December 23, 2016 3:53 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.google.ca/imgres? imgurl=http://files.balancer. ru/forums/attaches/2014/02/02- 3356571-sever-2-bis-ssha-8. jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums. airbase.ru/2014/02/t20034_85-- issledovatelskie-podvodnye- apparaty.html&docid= WGibX3W06Z1eHM&tbnid= fooynjQckj_rNM:&vet=1&w=2118& h=1395&bih=735&biw=1360&q= sever-2 submarine images&ved= 0ahUKEwj7zITts4vRAhVM0oMKHWucD ds4ZBAzCF4oWTBZ&iact=mrc&uact= 8 ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Image 2016-12-23 at 3.52 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29925 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 20:00:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 01:00:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <287491602.1094695.1482535008711@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1118290004.1108782.1482533666930@mail.yahoo.com> <287491602.1094695.1482535008711@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1005270440.1241993.1482541212943@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, How did you end up finding this??Al Secor From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: If it were a steam?locomotive, my wife would have already bought it lolHank On Friday, December 23, 2016 4:14 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: In that picture it looks for all the world like a steam locomotive! Alec On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 5:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sever-2 Submarine as it sits todayHank On Friday, December 23, 2016 3:53 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.google.ca/imgres? imgurl=http://files.balancer. ru/forums/attaches/2014/02/02- 3356571-sever-2-bis-ssha-8. jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums. airbase.ru/2014/02/t20034_85-- issledovatelskie-podvodnye- apparaty.html&docid= WGibX3W06Z1eHM&tbnid= fooynjQckj_rNM:&vet=1&w=2118& h=1395&bih=735&biw=1360&q= sever-2 submarine images&ved= 0ahUKEwj7zITts4vRAhVM0oMKHWucD ds4ZBAzCF4oWTBZ&iact=mrc&uact= 8 ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Image 2016-12-23 at 3.52 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29925 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 23 20:17:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 01:17:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1005270440.1241993.1482541212943@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1118290004.1108782.1482533666930@mail.yahoo.com> <287491602.1094695.1482535008711@mail.yahoo.com> <1005270440.1241993.1482541212943@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1676843843.1150368.1482542279426@mail.yahoo.com> Al,I found a?picture on the internet with a rough ?location in Alabama. ?Then I went on Google earth and searched street by street until I found it. ?Then I went on street view and found the ship yard. ?Then I just called the owner and had a nice chat. ?Now we are negotiating, the problem is Titanium is valuable as scrap.Hank On Friday, December 23, 2016 6:00 PM, Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, How did you end up finding this??Al Secor From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: If it were a steam?locomotive, my wife would have already bought it lolHank On Friday, December 23, 2016 4:14 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: In that picture it looks for all the world like a steam locomotive! Alec On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 5:54 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sever-2 Submarine as it sits todayHank On Friday, December 23, 2016 3:53 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.google.ca/imgres? imgurl=http://files.balancer. ru/forums/attaches/2014/02/02- 3356571-sever-2-bis-ssha-8. jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums. airbase.ru/2014/02/t20034_85-- issledovatelskie-podvodnye- apparaty.html&docid= WGibX3W06Z1eHM&tbnid= fooynjQckj_rNM:&vet=1&w=2118& h=1395&bih=735&biw=1360&q= sever-2 submarine images&ved= 0ahUKEwj7zITts4vRAhVM0oMKHWucD ds4ZBAzCF4oWTBZ&iact=mrc&uact= 8 ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-12-23 at 3.52 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29925 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 28 20:47:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 01:47:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer References: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822@mail.yahoo.com> Just received my 6 pressure transducers from China.These were tailor made for me to fit in to the high pressure portof my first stage regulator; So rather than have high pressure air& oxygen coming through the hull wall, I just have wires.?? Unfortunately it looks like they have got it wrong. They have a conicalportion at the base of the male thread that makes it impossible to sealwith an O-ring. I specified 10mm for thread & shank, but the 3mm extra on the conical portion means the flat faces of the pressure transmitter & regulator can't meet. Other than that it looks ideal for potting the wires.?? Any suggestions for a fix on this, other than sending them back?I could possibly turn the conical portion down & stack washes under theo-ring. The fit was also a bit sloppy, but so was the original plug that wasin this high pressure port. Not sure if this is normal or not.See attached photos, thanks.Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pressure transducer 2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 65266 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Pressure transducer 4.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 97941 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 28 21:15:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 02:15:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822@mail.yahoo.com> References: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <841477956.3367009.1482976029822@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1119072983.3052915.1482977753835@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I assume the threaded shaft is just a means of attaching it with a hole in the middle. ?If so, file it shorter, ?put a nut on the tread first and the nut will fix the end of the tread when you remove it.Hank On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 6:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Just received my 6 pressure transducers from China.These were tailor made for me to fit in to the high pressure portof my first stage regulator; So rather than have high pressure air& oxygen coming through the hull wall, I just have wires.?? Unfortunately it looks like they have got it wrong. They have a conicalportion at the base of the male thread that makes it impossible to sealwith an O-ring. I specified 10mm for thread & shank, but the 3mm extra on the conical portion means the flat faces of the pressure transmitter & regulator can't meet. Other than that it looks ideal for potting the wires.?? Any suggestions for a fix on this, other than sending them back?I could possibly turn the conical portion down & stack washes under theo-ring. The fit was also a bit sloppy, but so was the original plug that wasin this high pressure port. Not sure if this is normal or not.See attached photos, thanks.Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 28 21:58:00 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 02:58:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <1119072983.3052915.1482977753835@mail.yahoo.com> References: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <841477956.3367009.1482976029822@mail.yahoo.com> <1119072983.3052915.1482977753835@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1085320320.3441264.1482980280944@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,yes it has a hole down the middle of the threaded fitting.I only have 10mm of thread. I could machine a few mm off the end but stillwouldn't have a flat area to squash the o-ring against. The female fitting is slightlytapered initially, & the o-ring is meant to fit in to this taper.If I put a nut on as a spacer, the internal face of the o-ring would be against the thread,& high pressure air could?leak down between the thread & nut.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Alan,I assume the threaded shaft is just a means of attaching it with a hole in the middle. ?If so, file it shorter, ?put a nut on the tread first and the nut will fix the end of the tread when you remove it.Hank On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 6:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Just received my 6 pressure transducers from China.These were tailor made for me to fit in to the high pressure portof my first stage regulator; So rather than have high pressure air& oxygen coming through the hull wall, I just have wires.?? Unfortunately it looks like they have got it wrong. They have a conicalportion at the base of the male thread that makes it impossible to sealwith an O-ring. I specified 10mm for thread & shank, but the 3mm extra on the conical portion means the flat faces of the pressure transmitter & regulator can't meet. Other than that it looks ideal for potting the wires.?? Any suggestions for a fix on this, other than sending them back?I could possibly turn the conical portion down & stack washes under theo-ring. The fit was also a bit sloppy, but so was the original plug that wasin this high pressure port. Not sure if this is normal or not.See attached photos, thanks.Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 28 23:22:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2016 23:22:18 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <1085320320.3441264.1482980280944@mail.yahoo.com> References: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <841477956.3367009.1482976029822@mail.yahoo.com> <1119072983.3052915.1482977753835@mail.yahoo.com> <1085320320.3441264.1482980280944@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Maybe a ring shaped piece to be sandwiched between the transducer and the regulator, and with an O ring on each side of it. Although you'll be getting into jewelry scale machining at that point, probably not too easy. But I'd say the transducer probably doesn't need to be screwed right to the bottom, so the sandwich ring could be a little thicker than the gap shown in your photo. Best, Alec On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, > yes it has a hole down the middle of the threaded fitting. > I only have 10mm of thread. I could machine a few mm off the end but still > wouldn't have a flat area to squash the o-ring against. The female fitting > is slightly > tapered initially, & the o-ring is meant to fit in to this taper. > If I put a nut on as a spacer, the internal face of the o-ring would be > against the thread, > & high pressure air could leak down between the thread & nut. > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2016 3:15 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer > > Alan, > I assume the threaded shaft is just a means of attaching it with a hole in > the middle. If so, file it shorter, put a nut on the tread first and the > nut will fix the end of the tread when you remove it. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 6:47 PM, Alan James via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Just received my 6 pressure transducers from China. > These were tailor made for me to fit in to the high pressure port > of my first stage regulator; So rather than have high pressure air > & oxygen coming through the hull wall, I just have wires. > Unfortunately it looks like they have got it wrong. They have a conical > portion at the base of the male thread that makes it impossible to seal > with an O-ring. I specified 10mm for thread & shank, but the 3mm extra > on the conical portion means the flat faces of the pressure transmitter & > regulator can't meet. Other than that it looks ideal for potting the wires. > Any suggestions for a fix on this, other than sending them back? > I could possibly turn the conical portion down & stack washes under the > o-ring. The fit was also a bit sloppy, but so was the original plug that > was > in this high pressure port. Not sure if this is normal or not. > See attached photos, thanks. > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 28 23:54:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 04:54:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: References: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <841477956.3367009.1482976029822@mail.yahoo.com> <1119072983.3052915.1482977753835@mail.yahoo.com> <1085320320.3441264.1482980280944@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1886842792.3474966.1482987245158@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Alec,yes that may work, but as you say the fine machining may be a bit tedious on 6 of them.?? I will email the company & offer to send them a first stage regulatorwith their pressure transducers so they can get it right!?? I think it will be worth getting it right as it may be useful to other Psubbersin the future & the manufacturer?could market it to the diving industry for gas mixing set ups. If they wanted.Cheers Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Maybe a ring shaped piece to be sandwiched between the transducer and the regulator, and with an O ring on each side of it. Although you'll be getting into jewelry scale machining at that point, probably not too easy. But I'd say the transducer probably doesn't need to be screwed right to the bottom, so the sandwich ring could be a little thicker than the gap shown in your photo. Best, Alec On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,yes it has a hole down the middle of the threaded fitting.I only have 10mm of thread. I could machine a few mm off the end but stillwouldn't have a flat area to squash the o-ring against. The female fitting is slightlytapered initially, & the o-ring is meant to fit in to this taper.If I put a nut on as a spacer, the internal face of the o-ring would be against the thread,& high pressure air could?leak down between the thread & nut.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Alan,I assume the threaded shaft is just a means of attaching it with a hole in the middle.? If so, file it shorter, ?put a nut on the tread first and the nut will fix the end of the tread when you remove it.Hank On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 6:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Just received my 6 pressure transducers from China.These were tailor made for me to fit in to the high pressure portof my first stage regulator; So rather than have high pressure air& oxygen coming through the hull wall, I just have wires.?? Unfortunately it looks like they have got it wrong. They have a conicalportion at the base of the male thread that makes it impossible to sealwith an O-ring. I specified 10mm for thread & shank, but the 3mm extra on the conical portion means the flat faces of the pressure transmitter & regulator can't meet. Other than that it looks ideal for potting the wires.?? Any suggestions for a fix on this, other than sending them back?I could possibly turn the conical portion down & stack washes under theo-ring. The fit was also a bit sloppy, but so was the original plug that wasin this high pressure port. Not sure if this is normal or not.See attached photos, thanks.Alan ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 29 07:55:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 12:55:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <1886842792.3474966.1482987245158@mail.yahoo.com> References: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <841477956.3367009.1482976029822@mail.yahoo.com> <1119072983.3052915.1482977753835@mail.yahoo.com> <1085320320.3441264.1482980280944@mail.yahoo.com> <1886842792.3474966.1482987245158@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1227472192.3206490.1483016135649@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I meant, put the nut on ahead of filing only as a means of restoring the thread. ?Any time I cit a bolt down, I put a nut on first to save time fixing the thread. ?I did not realize you could put it in the lathe. That would be the way to go.Hank On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 9:54 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Alec,yes that may work, but as you say the fine machining may be a bit tedious on 6 of them.?? I will email the company & offer to send them a first stage regulatorwith their pressure transducers so they can get it right!?? I think it will be worth getting it right as it may be useful to other Psubbersin the future & the manufacturer?could market it to the diving industry for gas mixing set ups. If they wanted.Cheers Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Maybe a ring shaped piece to be sandwiched between the transducer and the regulator, and with an O ring on each side of it. Although you'll be getting into jewelry scale machining at that point, probably not too easy. But I'd say the transducer probably doesn't need to be screwed right to the bottom, so the sandwich ring could be a little thicker than the gap shown in your photo. Best, Alec On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,yes it has a hole down the middle of the threaded fitting.I only have 10mm of thread. I could machine a few mm off the end but stillwouldn't have a flat area to squash the o-ring against. The female fitting is slightlytapered initially, & the o-ring is meant to fit in to this taper.If I put a nut on as a spacer, the internal face of the o-ring would be against the thread,& high pressure air could?leak down between the thread & nut.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Alan,I assume the threaded shaft is just a means of attaching it with a hole in the middle.? If so, file it shorter, ?put a nut on the tread first and the nut will fix the end of the tread when you remove it.Hank On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 6:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Just received my 6 pressure transducers from China.These were tailor made for me to fit in to the high pressure portof my first stage regulator; So rather than have high pressure air& oxygen coming through the hull wall, I just have wires.?? Unfortunately it looks like they have got it wrong. They have a conicalportion at the base of the male thread that makes it impossible to sealwith an O-ring. I specified 10mm for thread & shank, but the 3mm extra on the conical portion means the flat faces of the pressure transmitter & regulator can't meet. Other than that it looks ideal for potting the wires.?? Any suggestions for a fix on this, other than sending them back?I could possibly turn the conical portion down & stack washes under theo-ring. The fit was also a bit sloppy, but so was the original plug that wasin this high pressure port. Not sure if this is normal or not.See attached photos, thanks.Alan ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 29 09:33:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 08:33:24 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <1085320320.3441264.1482980280944@mail.yahoo.com> References: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <841477956.3367009.1482976029822@mail.yahoo.com> <1119072983.3052915.1482977753835@mail.yahoo.com> <1085320320.3441264.1482980280944@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If it were me I would machine out the conical section and then machine off enough of the 10mm threaded shank until it will mate. Actually i would abandon this approach altogether and put the pressure transmitters inside the boat and use Swagelok fittings and ss tubing to connect to regulator. O-ring seals are designed for high pressure. Likelihood of leak into boat is small. Cliff Cliff Redus > On Dec 28, 2016, at 8:58 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, > yes it has a hole down the middle of the threaded fitting. > I only have 10mm of thread. I could machine a few mm off the end but still > wouldn't have a flat area to squash the o-ring against. The female fitting is slightly > tapered initially, & the o-ring is meant to fit in to this taper. > If I put a nut on as a spacer, the internal face of the o-ring would be against the thread, > & high pressure air could leak down between the thread & nut. > Alan > > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 3:15 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer > > Alan, > I assume the threaded shaft is just a means of attaching it with a hole in the middle. If so, file it shorter, put a nut on the tread first and the nut will fix the end of the tread when you remove it. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 6:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Just received my 6 pressure transducers from China. > These were tailor made for me to fit in to the high pressure port > of my first stage regulator; So rather than have high pressure air > & oxygen coming through the hull wall, I just have wires. > Unfortunately it looks like they have got it wrong. They have a conical > portion at the base of the male thread that makes it impossible to seal > with an O-ring. I specified 10mm for thread & shank, but the 3mm extra > on the conical portion means the flat faces of the pressure transmitter & > regulator can't meet. Other than that it looks ideal for potting the wires. > Any suggestions for a fix on this, other than sending them back? > I could possibly turn the conical portion down & stack washes under the > o-ring. The fit was also a bit sloppy, but so was the original plug that was > in this high pressure port. Not sure if this is normal or not. > See attached photos, thanks. > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 29 12:19:00 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 09:19:00 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Barbed fitting Message-ID: <20161229091900.BB65EF1@m0087794.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 29 14:08:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 19:08:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: References: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <841477956.3367009.1482976029822@mail.yahoo.com> <1119072983.3052915.1482977753835@mail.yahoo.com> <1085320320.3441264.1482980280944@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <216548263.3753552.1483038528043@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,I looked at machining but?they wouldn't fit in my lathe.I was specific about what I ordered and the manufacturer has gotit wrong. I have been talking with them & I'll send them back.?? I am trying to keep as close as practicable to GL rules.They require a valve? at? the hull for any gas coming in to thecabin. Although there is no gas lines coming in?& through?the cabin,I would be pretty sure they would require a valve between the hull& the pressure transducer. With 6 tanks to monitor, this will saveon the cost of 6 valves, but more importantly will save space insidethe hull, & as these valves would need to be clustered within armsreach, that space in that area would be an important saving.Also, as I have said previously, a failed o-ring on the hull interface with high pressure air / O2 could lead to a fatal condition in a small one person submersible.Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 3:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer If it were me I would machine out the conical section and then machine off enough of the 10mm threaded shank until it will mate. ? Actually i would abandon this approach altogether and put the pressure transmitters inside the boat and use Swagelok fittings and ss tubing to connect to regulator. O-ring seals are designed for high pressure. ?Likelihood of leak into boat is small.?Cliff Cliff Redus On Dec 28, 2016, at 8:58 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,yes it has a hole down the middle of the threaded fitting.I only have 10mm of thread. I could machine a few mm off the end but stillwouldn't have a flat area to squash the o-ring against. The female fitting is slightlytapered initially, & the o-ring is meant to fit in to this taper.If I put a nut on as a spacer, the internal face of the o-ring would be against the thread,& high pressure air could?leak down between the thread & nut.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Alan,I assume the threaded shaft is just a means of attaching it with a hole in the middle. ?If so, file it shorter, ?put a nut on the tread first and the nut will fix the end of the tread when you remove it.Hank On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 6:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Just received my 6 pressure transducers from China.These were tailor made for me to fit in to the high pressure portof my first stage regulator; So rather than have high pressure air& oxygen coming through the hull wall, I just have wires.?? Unfortunately it looks like they have got it wrong. They have a conicalportion at the base of the male thread that makes it impossible to sealwith an O-ring. I specified 10mm for thread & shank, but the 3mm extra on the conical portion means the flat faces of the pressure transmitter & regulator can't meet. Other than that it looks ideal for potting the wires.?? Any suggestions for a fix on this, other than sending them back?I could possibly turn the conical portion down & stack washes under theo-ring. The fit was also a bit sloppy, but so was the original plug that wasin this high pressure port. Not sure if this is normal or not.See attached photos, thanks.Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 29 15:55:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 20:55:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <216548263.3753552.1483038528043@mail.yahoo.com> References: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <841477956.3367009.1482976029822@mail.yahoo.com> <1119072983.3052915.1482977753835@mail.yahoo.com> <1085320320.3441264.1482980280944@mail.yahoo.com> <216548263.3753552.1483038528043@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <725345184.3853923.1483044955490@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,just looked up the GL rules regarding gas penetrations & they are a bit ambiguousin this instance, as are ABS.GL section 9,?B 1.2 ... Pipes which are led through the pressure hull wall are to befitted with two shut-off devices, one of which is to be located immediately at the hullwall.?? You could argue that a pressure transducer shuts off the gas flow at the hullpenetration anyway. I just think that in my instance, with a small cabin, it is best tokeep the high pressure lines away from it.Alan From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Cliff,I looked at machining but?they wouldn't fit in my lathe.I was specific about what I ordered and the manufacturer has gotit wrong. I have been talking with them & I'll send them back.?? I am trying to keep as close as practicable to GL rules.They require a valve? at? the hull for any gas coming in to thecabin. Although there is no gas lines coming in?& through?the cabin,I would be pretty sure they would require a valve between the hull& the pressure transducer. With 6 tanks to monitor, this will saveon the cost of 6 valves, but more importantly will save space insidethe hull, & as these valves would need to be clustered within armsreach, that space in that area would be an important saving.Also, as I have said previously, a failed o-ring on the hull interface with high pressure air / O2 could lead to a fatal condition in a small one person submersible.Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 3:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer If it were me I would machine out the conical section and then machine off enough of the 10mm threaded shank until it will mate. ? Actually i would abandon this approach altogether and put the pressure transmitters inside the boat and use Swagelok fittings and ss tubing to connect to regulator. O-ring seals are designed for high pressure. ?Likelihood of leak into boat is small.?Cliff Cliff Redus On Dec 28, 2016, at 8:58 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,yes it has a hole down the middle of the threaded fitting.I only have 10mm of thread. I could machine a few mm off the end but stillwouldn't have a flat area to squash the o-ring against. The female fitting is slightlytapered initially, & the o-ring is meant to fit in to this taper.If I put a nut on as a spacer, the internal face of the o-ring would be against the thread,& high pressure air could?leak down between the thread & nut.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Alan,I assume the threaded shaft is just a means of attaching it with a hole in the middle. ?If so, file it shorter, ?put a nut on the tread first and the nut will fix the end of the tread when you remove it.Hank On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 6:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Just received my 6 pressure transducers from China.These were tailor made for me to fit in to the high pressure portof my first stage regulator; So rather than have high pressure air& oxygen coming through the hull wall, I just have wires.?? Unfortunately it looks like they have got it wrong. They have a conicalportion at the base of the male thread that makes it impossible to sealwith an O-ring. I specified 10mm for thread & shank, but the 3mm extra on the conical portion means the flat faces of the pressure transmitter & regulator can't meet. Other than that it looks ideal for potting the wires.?? Any suggestions for a fix on this, other than sending them back?I could possibly turn the conical portion down & stack washes under theo-ring. The fit was also a bit sloppy, but so was the original plug that wasin this high pressure port. Not sure if this is normal or not.See attached photos, thanks.Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 29 20:13:29 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 12:13:29 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <725345184.3853923.1483044955490@mail.yahoo.com> References: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <841477956.3367009.1482976029822@mail.yahoo.com> <1119072983.3052915.1482977753835@mail.yahoo.com> <1085320320.3441264.1482980280944@mail.yahoo.com> <216548263.3753552.1483038528043@mail.yahoo.com> <725345184.3853923.1483044955490@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, Sloppy threads (especially fine straight ones) on Chinese HP fittings are a bit scary - perhaps a good idea to stand (extremely) well clear and pressure test with an extra full tank. Using adaptors could get things working, and may be more possible than getting your Chinese company to re make the transducers, although I vaguely recall you were against using adaptors in the first place. I also just had a thought that if you pot them, you may need to account for the ambient pressure being higher than normal. Ie. Under normal circumstances it acts as a differential pressure sensor, relative to the (ambient) pressure on the back of sensing element. When you pot them, the reference pressure may change. Cheers, Steve On 30 Dec 2016 8:01 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Cliff, just looked up the GL rules regarding gas penetrations & they are a bit ambiguous in this instance, as are ABS. GL section 9, B 1.2 ... Pipes which are led through the pressure hull wall are to be fitted with two shut-off devices, one of which is to be located immediately at the hull wall. You could argue that a pressure transducer shuts off the gas flow at the hull penetration anyway. I just think that in my instance, with a small cabin, it is best to keep the high pressure lines away from it. Alan ------------------------------ *From:* Alan James via Personal_Submersibles *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion *Sent:* Friday, December 30, 2016 8:08 AM *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Cliff, I looked at machining but they wouldn't fit in my lathe. I was specific about what I ordered and the manufacturer has got it wrong. I have been talking with them & I'll send them back. I am trying to keep as close as practicable to GL rules. They require a valve at the hull for any gas coming in to the cabin. Although there is no gas lines coming in & through the cabin, I would be pretty sure they would require a valve between the hull & the pressure transducer. With 6 tanks to monitor, this will save on the cost of 6 valves, but more importantly will save space inside the hull, & as these valves would need to be clustered within arms reach, that space in that area would be an important saving. Also, as I have said previously, a failed o-ring on the hull interface with high pressure air / O2 could lead to a fatal condition in a small one person submersible. Cheers Alan ------------------------------ *From:* via Personal_Submersibles *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion *Sent:* Friday, December 30, 2016 3:33 AM *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer If it were me I would machine out the conical section and then machine off enough of the 10mm threaded shank until it will mate. Actually i would abandon this approach altogether and put the pressure transmitters inside the boat and use Swagelok fittings and ss tubing to connect to regulator. O-ring seals are designed for high pressure. Likelihood of leak into boat is small. Cliff Cliff Redus On Dec 28, 2016, at 8:58 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Hank, yes it has a hole down the middle of the threaded fitting. I only have 10mm of thread. I could machine a few mm off the end but still wouldn't have a flat area to squash the o-ring against. The female fitting is slightly tapered initially, & the o-ring is meant to fit in to this taper. If I put a nut on as a spacer, the internal face of the o-ring would be against the thread, & high pressure air could leak down between the thread & nut. Alan ------------------------------ *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2016 3:15 PM *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Alan, I assume the threaded shaft is just a means of attaching it with a hole in the middle. If so, file it shorter, put a nut on the tread first and the nut will fix the end of the tread when you remove it. Hank On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 6:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Just received my 6 pressure transducers from China. These were tailor made for me to fit in to the high pressure port of my first stage regulator; So rather than have high pressure air & oxygen coming through the hull wall, I just have wires. Unfortunately it looks like they have got it wrong. They have a conical portion at the base of the male thread that makes it impossible to seal with an O-ring. I specified 10mm for thread & shank, but the 3mm extra on the conical portion means the flat faces of the pressure transmitter & regulator can't meet. Other than that it looks ideal for potting the wires. Any suggestions for a fix on this, other than sending them back? I could possibly turn the conical portion down & stack washes under the o-ring. The fit was also a bit sloppy, but so was the original plug that was in this high pressure port. Not sure if this is normal or not. See attached photos, thanks. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 29 20:37:06 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 01:37:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: References: <841477956.3367009.1482976029822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <841477956.3367009.1482976029822@mail.yahoo.com> <1119072983.3052915.1482977753835@mail.yahoo.com> <1085320320.3441264.1482980280944@mail.yahoo.com> <216548263.3753552.1483038528043@mail.yahoo.com> <725345184.3853923.1483044955490@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <330013143.3970477.1483061826428@mail.yahoo.com> Hi?Steve,I have the threaded section a bit longer than the blank plug Itook out of the hp port. Hopefully this will give a bit more strength.?? Thanks for the heads up on the reference pressure. I can't seeany hole out the back. Once potted it should remain at 1 atm insidethe sensor. As I am wiring it to a PLC & having it display on a HMI,I will need to calibrate it with another pressure gauge, but will nowalso compare the readings with a divers contents gauge at depth. Cheers Alan From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Hi Alan,Sloppy threads (especially fine straight ones) on Chinese HP fittings are a bit scary - perhaps a good idea to stand (extremely) well clear and pressure test with an extra full tank. Using adaptors could get things working, and may be more possible than getting your Chinese company to re make the transducers, although I vaguely recall you were against using adaptors in the first place. I also just had a thought that if you pot them, you may need to account for the ambient pressure being higher than normal. Ie. Under normal circumstances it acts as a differential pressure sensor, relative to the (ambient) pressure on the back of sensing element. When you pot them, the reference pressure may change. Cheers,Steve On 30 Dec 2016 8:01 am, "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Cliff,just looked up the GL rules regarding gas penetrations & they are a bit ambiguousin this instance, as are ABS.GL section 9,?B 1.2 ... Pipes which are led through the pressure hull wall are to befitted with two shut-off devices, one of which is to be located immediately at the hullwall.?? You could argue that a pressure transducer shuts off the gas flow at the hullpenetration anyway. I just think that in my instance, with a small cabin, it is best tokeep the high pressure lines away from it.Alan From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Cliff,I looked at machining but?they wouldn't fit in my lathe.I was specific about what I ordered and the manufacturer has gotit wrong. I have been talking with them & I'll send them back.?? I am trying to keep as close as practicable to GL rules.They require a valve? at? the hull for any gas coming in to thecabin. Although there is no gas lines coming in?& through?the cabin,I would be pretty sure they would require a valve between the hull& the pressure transducer. With 6 tanks to monitor, this will saveon the cost of 6 valves, but more importantly will save space insidethe hull, & as these valves would need to be clustered within armsreach, that space in that area would be an important saving.Also, as I have said previously, a failed o-ring on the hull interface with high pressure air / O2 could lead to a fatal condition in a small one person submersible.Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 3:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer If it were me I would machine out the conical section and then machine off enough of the 10mm threaded shank until it will mate. ? Actually i would abandon this approach altogether and put the pressure transmitters inside the boat and use Swagelok fittings and ss tubing to connect to regulator. O-ring seals are designed for high pressure.? Likelihood of leak into boat is small.?Cliff Cliff Redus On Dec 28, 2016, at 8:58 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,yes it has a hole down the middle of the threaded fitting.I only have 10mm of thread. I could machine a few mm off the end but stillwouldn't have a flat area to squash the o-ring against. The female fitting is slightlytapered initially, & the o-ring is meant to fit in to this taper.If I put a nut on as a spacer, the internal face of the o-ring would be against the thread,& high pressure air could?leak down between the thread & nut.Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Alan,I assume the threaded shaft is just a means of attaching it with a hole in the middle.? If so, file it shorter, ?put a nut on the tread first and the nut will fix the end of the tread when you remove it.Hank On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 6:47 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Just received my 6 pressure transducers from China.These were tailor made for me to fit in to the high pressure portof my first stage regulator; So rather than have high pressure air& oxygen coming through the hull wall, I just have wires.?? Unfortunately it looks like they have got it wrong. They have a conicalportion at the base of the male thread that makes it impossible to sealwith an O-ring. I specified 10mm for thread & shank, but the 3mm extra on the conical portion means the flat faces of the pressure transmitter & regulator can't meet. Other than that it looks ideal for potting the wires.?? Any suggestions for a fix on this, other than sending them back?I could possibly turn the conical portion down & stack washes under theo-ring. The fit was also a bit sloppy, but so was the original plug that wasin this high pressure port. Not sure if this is normal or not.See attached photos, thanks.Alan ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 30 21:19:39 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:19:39 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project In-Reply-To: <1348578276.6275464.1480885332147@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1348578276.6275464.1480885332147@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15952ace2ba-41ae-2910f@webprd-m33.mail.aol.com> Hello all! I went ahead and bought the plans for the K-350. I'm going to wait to build it when I move over seas but in the meantime, I'll go through the plans and look into doing some small modifications. I had the chance to visit Scott's workshop on Monday and had the change to take a look at Trustworthy, and what I notice was that it's quite cramp inside of the sub. I was talking with Scott and he mentioned increasing the diameter from 36 inches to 42 inches. Has anyone done it before? Also, since I will be building it in Europe (most likely Germany), there might be some difficulty getting stuff in the imperial unit. Should I convert the measurements into metric or how have others done it? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 3:02 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, I was going to mention earlier that you can get great control with vertical thrusters. On Emile's sub, that has rotating thrusters, he can sit perfectly still an inch above a wreck. I would go the wet sub or DPV route first off. You can just buy a trolling motors & air compensate them off an octopus regulator. You will have the experience of water proofing your electronics, soughting out controllers & ballasting. That will keep you busy for a while. I have been thinking of building a DPV / wet sub so that I can get the tank off my back & scoot around without getting cramp :) Maybe with a coiled breathing hose long enough to get in to some crayfish holes. The dry ambient can certainly be cheaper than a 1atm, especially if you want large hemispherical view ports. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Emile, besides your ears having to adjust to the pressure change, am I forgetting something? All these problems that comes with an ambient sub is making me want to build a one atmosphere sub! The only issue that I stated before is that I will be moving out of the country (going to be moving to Germany) in around two years and won't have the time and space to bring a sub with me. Instead of building a dry sub, maybe I should be looking into a wet sub. Has anyone here attempted building a wet sub before? Does anyone here know if there are any vlog (video blog) type videos on submarines/submersibles? There are a lot of vlogs over flying, sailing and other activities and I'm thinking that the submarine community could benefit from it because it will help promote the sport/activity. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 3:49 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Alan, Yep, You need air-conditioning in warm waters and a composite hull. When you dived with me the cabin temperature was perfect. -steel hull -water temp 12 deg. Celsius on average -3 persons (abt. 1400 Watt heat) Ludwig , are you aware of the risk of descending to quick in a dry ambient? Regards, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zaterdag 3 december 2016 22:30 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, Cliff's R300 (on psubs project page) was a similar design to Graham Hawke's Falcon. It had a jet unit out back that rotated for steering, & dive planes. Cliff has now taken off the jet unit & gone to two horizontal & two vertical thrusters. Graham Hawke's latest sub "The Dragon" has horizontal & vertical thrusters. I met one of Hawke's previous business partners who has now partnered with Nuytco to develop the Orcasub. He didn't like the "Deep Flight" flying concept & didn't think it worked well. Orcasub link below. http://nuytco.com/products/orcasub/ The Falcon might be OK in 200ft visibility water, but has lack of manouverability for normal conditions. Additionally, as you are building an ambient, which is not as safe as a 1atm, it is handy to have two horizontal thrusters to compensate for any sudden buoyancy changes. Have a friend that dived in the Falcoln in Fiji. He said it was really hot on the surface & remained hot under the water. It has a composite hull, so not much heat transfer. With your breathing air coming in at 20 liters a minute in an ambient, it does cool you a bit. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 6:56 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I will try to get a picture drawn and post it when I get the time this weekend. Has anyone tried building a sub with the controls like the Deepflight super falcon sub? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Luwig, Doug had large flat acrylic ports glued in to a frame with Sika Flex, on his ambient sub "Seeker". http://svseeker.com/submarine.htm He never got to dive it & sold it as is. He had the acrylic set up so that the pressure was pushing against the glue & not the frame. I didn't think this was wise, as it could be fatal if the glue failed. Acrylic scratches easily & is not as impact resistant as fiberglass. Your submarine has to weigh as much as the water displaced to be neutrally bouyant. Imagine your hull being a solid block of ice, & you will get a picture of the weight involved. The owner of the "dry dive" told me he hit a pinacle under the water & it was a massive impact even at slow speed. So build for strength. I would imagine acrylic of the thickness you need would be quite expensive. There are a couple of manufacturers in the States that sell acrylic domes at reasonable prices in varying sizes & up to I think 10mm thick. The domes for 1atm subs can cost thousands. If you want to post an image of your ideas we could comment on it. I am getting the impression you are wanting to build something like a fish tank! Even a pencil drawing will do. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of how big the book is! Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest? Any idea on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic Sheets on an ambient sub? I'm thinking about making the frame out of aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic. For more complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass. Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, just a brief run down on the thrusters. most people modify trolling motors for underwater use. The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page. I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient, 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was dubious. Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils. A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical thrusters. Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient.. http://www.fugusub.com/ The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns you. 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater. If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well. The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep water out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure outside. This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air compensated thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken the spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion of air on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good) I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd stage regulator. With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors. Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down it. (cheap) I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the seals & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the air compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure keeps the oil pressurized. A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle. Cheers Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over propulsion. What type of motor should I look at for my sub? Should I go with AC or DC motor? The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct? I was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to protect them. It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look though for tips/ideas! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf. If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside circular cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke off the circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I retrospectively decided to make an ambient out of my model. The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in fiberglass sandwiches to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. (Not the Doug that replied to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard filler with the resin to go between the gaps of the stringers. You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round section. I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, then fiberglass. If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the temperature. If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you need, buy the parts, make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as the temptation is to build the hull so you can see some progress. Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would recommend that as a first step. Pleased to help with your future build. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for all the information! I'm going to be spending the next couple of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor. Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail! -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was strong enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one shot. Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the top & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol. On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Alan, Thanks for the name. I forgot it was called a moon pool. You did bring up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex. I got to think about it for a while if it's worth having. I have experience with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem. What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did you put down? And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs? Do you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, they call that a moon pool. Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_jr_2010.htm He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & the bouncing motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air in his hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him to descend. As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing negative buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was only 20ft down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water. You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic pipe. I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your life at stake. Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill holes through & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as strong if you want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester resin. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving bell). Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the hull? [This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub] Would that be cost effective? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to be water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are vulnerable to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't ask me what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all capacitors are not the same. There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be regarded as a semi-dry. I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it would compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that. Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in mildly rough conditions. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Thanks for the information Alan! I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design. Also since I will be working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor) Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a structural difference? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, On my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't free flow) attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports down to stop water coming in. With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to equalize the hull, & any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air is automatically provided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use. I can elaborate if you go that path. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub! Any idea on how they maintain the air volume? When scuba diving, you just manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do something different. How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Ludwig, I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the top of your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a dry ambient, but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continually compresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy. Most are built out of fiberglass. Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on visiting Scott in the next few weeks. I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route. Have a mix between a wet and a dry ambient sub! Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub? What building material should I use? Should I go with steel or fiberglass? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters is definitely recommended. Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere. If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress. ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ludwig, I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & there are aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch. You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom of your hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure & everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lot of internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub upside down and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your hatch will be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want them in the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft. You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life support plus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at 100ft. So a lot of air needed. You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you are diving to. I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/ I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient. Regards Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer then two years to built a 1 atm sub. What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine. I would learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and start building a 1 atm sub. I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person. I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry ambient submarine won't be much of a problem. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project Hi Ludwig, welcome. If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finish a 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need a similar amount of time. I built a dry ambient, which was a great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere. Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that. Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but most psubbers end up buying a copy of it. Cheers Alan New Zealand From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the pond in around two years! I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut size or a tiny bit smaller. I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull. That would only limit me down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving. -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale? Probably worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build from scratch. On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the East Coast. 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 31 16:09:21 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 10:09:21 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy New Year Message-ID: <3B33A261-DE36-4BF8-A920-719494D2E118@yahoo.com> Happy New Year Psubbers. It's already happened here in New Zealand. It is great being involved with this group & discussing the finer points of submarine building. I think my friends are scared of asking me "How is your submarine going" in case I go in to some boring technical discourse. So good to have a group of people on line I can relate to. Hope your projects go well this year. Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 31 16:31:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 14:31:53 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: NQvYcU9E4L5mtNQvacbFaQ References: NQvYcU9E4L5mtNQvacbFaQ Message-ID: I remember with great fondness the transition to the new year back when the millenium rolled over. There was so much concern about computers crashing and planes falling out of the sky due to the Y2K bug, a friend and I decided there was no better place to be than underwater at the time, so we went for a night dive at Race Rocks, BC. As luck would have it, it turned out to be a fantastic dive that I still remember years later. Hope your sub gets you there. Happy new year. Sean On December 31, 2016 2:09:21 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Happy New Year Psubbers. It's already happened here in New Zealand. >It is great being involved with this group & discussing the finer >points of >submarine building. >I think my friends are scared of asking me "How is your submarine >going" in >case I go in to some boring technical discourse. So good to have a >group of >people on line I can relate to. > Hope your projects go well this year. >Alan > > >Sent from my iPad >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 31 17:29:47 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 17:29:47 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Happy New Year Alan, Sean and all PSUBBERS around the world... may this year be your best one yet! ~ Douglas S. On 12/31/16, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I remember with great fondness the transition to the new year back when the > millenium rolled over. There was so much concern about computers crashing > and planes falling out of the sky due to the Y2K bug, a friend and I decided > there was no better place to be than underwater at the time, so we went for > a night dive at Race Rocks, BC. As luck would have it, it turned out to be > a fantastic dive that I still remember years later. > > Hope your sub gets you there. Happy new year. > > Sean > > > On December 31, 2016 2:09:21 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>Happy New Year Psubbers. It's already happened here in New Zealand. >>It is great being involved with this group & discussing the finer >>points of >>submarine building. >>I think my friends are scared of asking me "How is your submarine >>going" in >>case I go in to some boring technical discourse. So good to have a >>group of >>people on line I can relate to. >> Hope your projects go well this year. >>Alan >> >> >>Sent from my iPad >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 31 17:42:03 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 12:42:03 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Happy New Year Psubbers. As Alan mentioned, I am not sure I would be building a sub if it were not for all of you nut's all over the world that have been kind enough to share and support us all and I look forward to someday putting a face to as many names that I have been following for the last 5 years or more as I can and Thanks Jon for creating this format. I did a night dive as well when I was in High School with 3 other guys and we all gathered in a circle at midnight and used our dive lights/torches to watch our dive watched click over to the new year. This was in Puget Sound in regular wet suits and we froze our ass's off but when you are 16, you tend to do that kind of thing. The main question I get asked when people find out that I am building a sub is "when will it be done?" I just look at them cross-eyed and explain that I have never done one before so who knows?? but soon I hope.? Rick On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I remember with great fondness the transition to the new year back when > the millenium rolled over. There was so much concern about computers > crashing and planes falling out of the sky due to the Y2K bug, a friend and > I decided there was no better place to be than underwater at the time, so > we went for a night dive at Race Rocks, BC. As luck would have it, it > turned out to be a fantastic dive that I still remember years later. > > Hope your sub gets you there. Happy new year. > > Sean > > > On December 31, 2016 2:09:21 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Happy New Year Psubbers. It's already happened here in New Zealand. >> It is great being involved with this group & discussing the finer points of >> submarine building. >> I think my friends are scared of asking me "How is your submarine going" in >> case I go in to some boring technical discourse. So good to have a group of >> people on line I can relate to. >> Hope your projects go well this year. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -- > Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 31 17:52:45 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 14:52:45 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy New Year Message-ID: <20161231145245.BB6EF82@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 31 18:17:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 23:17:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <20161231145245.BB6EF82@m0087796.ppops.net> References: <20161231145245.BB6EF82@m0087796.ppops.net> Message-ID: <632743071.4257313.1483226277308@mail.yahoo.com> Happy new year all, 7.75 hr to go here in Canada.?Hank On Saturday, December 31, 2016 3:53 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Happy New Year !?? Thanks to everyone for putting up with all my dumb questions !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy New Year Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 12:42:03 -1000 Happy New Year Psubbers. As Alan mentioned, I am not sure I would be building a sub if it were not for all of you nut's all over the world that have been kind enough to share and support us all and I look forward to someday putting a face to as many names that I have been following for the last 5 years or more as I can and Thanks Jon for creating this format.?I did a night dive as well when I was in High School with 3 other guys and we all gathered in a circle at midnight and used our dive lights/torches to watch our dive watched click over to the new year. This was in Puget Sound in regular wet suits and we froze our ass's off but when you are 16, you tend to do that kind of thing. The main question I get asked when people find out that I am building a sub is "when will it be done?" I just look at them cross-eyed and explain that I have never done one before so who knows?? but soon I hope.\uD83D\uDE0E Rick On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I remember with great fondness the transition to the new year back when the millenium rolled over. There was so much concern about computers crashing and planes falling out of the sky due to the Y2K bug, a friend and I decided there was no better place to be than underwater at the time, so we went for a night dive at Race Rocks, BC.? As luck would have it, it turned out to be a fantastic dive that I still remember years later.Hope your sub gets you there.? Happy new year.Sean On December 31, 2016 2:09:21 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Happy New Year Psubbers. It's already happened here in New Zealand. It is great being involved with this group & discussing the finer points of submarine building. I think my friends are scared of asking me "How is your submarine going" in case I go in to some boring technical discourse. So good to have a group of people on line I can relate to. Hope your projects go well this year. Alan Sent from my iPad Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 31 18:29:32 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 13:29:32 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <632743071.4257313.1483226277308@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20161231145245.BB6EF82@m0087796.ppops.net> <632743071.4257313.1483226277308@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Does that include the exchange rate? RP On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 1:17 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Happy new year all, 7.75 hr to go here in Canada. > Hank > > > On Saturday, December 31, 2016 3:53 PM, Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Happy New Year ! Thanks to everyone for putting up with all my dumb > questions ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy New Year > Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 12:42:03 -1000 > > Happy New Year Psubbers. As Alan mentioned, I am not sure I would be > building a sub if it were not for all of you nut's all over the world that > have been kind enough to share and support us all and I look forward to > someday putting a face to as many names that I have been following for the > last 5 years or more as I can and Thanks Jon for creating this format. > I did a night dive as well when I was in High School with 3 other guys and > we all gathered in a circle at midnight and used our dive lights/torches to > watch our dive watched click over to the new year. This was in Puget Sound > in regular wet suits and we froze our ass's off but when you are 16, you > tend to do that kind of thing. The main question I get asked when people > find out that I am building a sub is "when will it be done?" I just look at > them cross-eyed and explain that I have never done one before so who > knows?? but soon I hope.\uD83D\uDE0E > > Rick > > On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I remember with great fondness the transition to the new year back when > the millenium rolled over. There was so much concern about computers > crashing and planes falling out of the sky due to the Y2K bug, a friend and > I decided there was no better place to be than underwater at the time, so > we went for a night dive at Race Rocks, BC. As luck would have it, it > turned out to be a fantastic dive that I still remember years later. > Hope your sub gets you there. Happy new year. > Sean > > > On December 31, 2016 2:09:21 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Happy New Year Psubbers. It's already happened here in New Zealand. > It is great being involved with this group & discussing the finer points of > submarine building. > I think my friends are scared of asking me "How is your submarine going" in > case I go in to some boring technical discourse. So good to have a group of > people on line I can relate to. > Hope your projects go well this year. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > -- > Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 31 19:07:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 00:07:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: References: <20161231145245.BB6EF82@m0087796.ppops.net> <632743071.4257313.1483226277308@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <503614395.4255138.1483229250186@mail.yahoo.com> Don't talk to me about the Canadian Peso. lolHank On Saturday, December 31, 2016 4:29 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that include the exchange rate?RP On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 1:17 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Happy new year all, 7.75 hr to go here in Canada.?Hank On Saturday, December 31, 2016 3:53 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Happy New Year !?? Thanks to everyone for putting up with all my dumb questions !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy New Year Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 12:42:03 -1000 Happy New Year Psubbers. As Alan mentioned, I am not sure I would be building a sub if it were not for all of you nut's all over the world that have been kind enough to share and support us all and I look forward to someday putting a face to as many names that I have been following for the last 5 years or more as I can and Thanks Jon for creating this format.?I did a night dive as well when I was in High School with 3 other guys and we all gathered in a circle at midnight and used our dive lights/torches to watch our dive watched click over to the new year. This was in Puget Sound in regular wet suits and we froze our ass's off but when you are 16, you tend to do that kind of thing. The main question I get asked when people find out that I am building a sub is "when will it be done?" I just look at them cross-eyed and explain that I have never done one before so who knows?? but soon I hope.\uD83D\uDE0E Rick On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I remember with great fondness the transition to the new year back when the millenium rolled over. There was so much concern about computers crashing and planes falling out of the sky due to the Y2K bug, a friend and I decided there was no better place to be than underwater at the time, so we went for a night dive at Race Rocks, BC.? As luck would have it, it turned out to be a fantastic dive that I still remember years later.Hope your sub gets you there.? Happy new year.Sean On December 31, 2016 2:09:21 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Happy New Year Psubbers. It's already happened here in New Zealand. It is great being involved with this group & discussing the finer points of submarine building. I think my friends are scared of asking me "How is your submarine going" in case I go in to some boring technical discourse. So good to have a group of people on line I can relate to. Hope your projects go well this year. Alan Sent from my iPad Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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