[PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Fri Dec 2 07:32:17 EST 2016

Ludwig,

The book is really awesome.
I would still urge you to consider a one atmosphere sub. it is so much
easier in every aspect, and more fun to dive.

Have a great weekend,
Cheers, Lasse

2016-12-02 0:17 GMT+01:00 via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org>:

> I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of
> how big the book is!
>
> Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest?  Any idea
> on the cost of trying to rebuild it today?
>
>
> Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic
> Sheets on an ambient sub?  I'm thinking about making the frame out of
> aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets
> on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic.  For more
> complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass.
> Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before?
>
>
> -Ludwig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project
>
> Hi Ludwig,
> just a brief run down on the thrusters.
> most people modify trolling motors for underwater use.
> The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this.
> Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page.
> I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient,
> 2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was
> dubious.
> Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own
> brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC
> as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils.
> A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical
> thrusters.
> Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient..
> http://www.fugusub.com/
> The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns
> you.
> 3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater.
> If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need
> to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well.
> The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep
> water
> out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so
> the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure
> outside.
> This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air
> compensated
> thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken
> the
> spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion
> of air
> on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good)
> I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd
> stage regulator.
> With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors.
> Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down
> it. (cheap)
> I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the
> seals
> & bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is
> easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the
> air
> compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure
> keeps the oil pressurized.
> A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle.
> Cheers Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible
> project
>
> I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over
> propulsion.
>
> What type of motor should I look at for my sub?  Should I go with AC or DC
> motor?
>
> The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct?  I
> was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to
> protect them.
>
> It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look
> though for tips/ideas!
>
> -Ludwig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project
>
> Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf.
> If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside
> circular
> cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke
> off the
> circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I
> retrospectively decided
> to make an ambient out of my model.
> The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in
> fiberglass sandwiches
> to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply.
> (Not the Doug that replied
> to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard
> filler with the resin to
> go between the gaps of the stringers.
> You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round
> section.
> I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it,
> then fiberglass.
> If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the
> temperature.
> If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you
> need, buy the parts,
> make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as
> the temptation
> is to build the hull so you can see some progress.
>    Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would
> recommend that as a
> first step.
> Pleased to help with your future build.
> Regards Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible
> project
>
> Thanks for all the information!  I'm going to be spending the next couple
> of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor.
>
> Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside
> or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured?
>
> Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles
> by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail!
>
> -Ludwig
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project
>
> Hi Ludwig,
> I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth
> I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass
> it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was
> strong
> enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one
> shot.
> Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the
> top
> & disolved out the polystyrene with petrol.
> On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an
> initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs.
> Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible
> project
>
> Alan,
> Thanks for the name.  I forgot it was called a moon pool.  You did bring
> up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex.  I got to
> think about it for a while if it's worth having.
>
> I have experience with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem.
> What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did
> you put down?
>
>  And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs?  Do
> you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper?
>
> -Ludwig
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project
>
> Ludwig,
> they call that a moon pool.
> Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_
> jr_2010.htm
> He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open &
> the bouncing
> motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air
> in his
> hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him
> to descend.
> As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing
> negative
> buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was
> only 20ft
> down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water.
>    You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic
> pipe.
> I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your
> life at stake.
> Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill
> holes through
> & attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as
> strong if you
> want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester
> resin.
> Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible
> project
>
> What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also
> have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving
> bell).
>
> Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the
> hull?  [This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub]
> Would that be cost effective?
>
>
> -Ludwig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project
>
> Ludwig,
> the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped
> in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the
> lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to
> be
> water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are
> vulnerable
> to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't
> ask me
> what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all
> capacitors are not the same.
> There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be
> regarded as a semi-dry.
> I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you
> couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it
> would
> compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that.
> Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need
> a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or
> Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in
> mildly rough conditions.
> Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible
> project
>
> Thanks for the information Alan!
>
> I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design.  Also since I will be
> working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a
> discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor)
>
> Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are
> not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a
> structural difference?
>
> -Ludwig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project
>
> Ludwig,
> On my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't
> free flow)
> attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports
> down to stop water coming in.
> With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to
> equalize the hull,
> & any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air
> is automatically
> provided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use.
> I can elaborate if you go that path.
> Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible
> project
>
> The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub!
>
> Any idea on how they maintain the air volume?  When scuba diving, you just
> manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do
> something different.
>
> How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume?
>
> -Ludwig
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project
>
> Ludwig,
> I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a
> semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the top
> of your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a
> dry ambient,
> but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continually
> compresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept
> at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy.
> Most are built out of fiberglass.
> Alan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible
> project
>
> I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on
> visiting Scott in the next few weeks.
>
> I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route.  Have a mix between a
> wet and a dry ambient sub!
>
> Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub?  What building material should I
> use?  Should I go with steel or fiberglass?
>
> -Ludwig
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project
>
> Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome,
> informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design /
> fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters
> is definitely recommended.
>
> Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on
> your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go
> for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because
> there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet
> sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an
> entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere.
>
> If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like
> a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket...
> whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on
> to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress.  ~ Douglas
> S.
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Ludwig,
> I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & there
> are aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch.
> You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom of
> your hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure
> & everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lot
> of internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub
> upside
> down and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your
> hatch
> will be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving.
> There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want them
> in the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft.
> You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life
> support
> plus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at
> 100ft.
> So a lot of air needed.
>  You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you are
> diving to.
> I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as
> a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/
> <http://www.psubs.org/projects/1235435392/ambientsub/>
> I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient.
> Regards Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible
> project
>
> I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer
> then two years to built a 1 atm sub.
>
> What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine.  I would
> learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and
> start building a 1 atm sub.  I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in
> New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person.
>
> I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry
> ambient submarine won't be much of a problem.
>
> -Ludwig
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project
>
> Hi Ludwig, welcome.
> If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finish
> a 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need
> a similar amount of time. I built a dry ambient, which was a
> great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere.
>     Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that.
> Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book.
> There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but most
> psubbers end up buying a copy of it.
> Cheers Alan
> New Zealand
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible
> project
>
> That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the
> pond in around two years!
>
> I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when
> I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut
> size or a tiny bit smaller.
>
> I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that
> route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull.  That would only limit me
> down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving.
>
> -Ludwig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project
>
> I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale?
> Probably worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build
> from scratch.
>
> On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
> I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the
> East Coast.
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
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-- 
Lasse Schmidt Westrén
Upplevelsepresent.se
070-28 32 660

Upplevelser, events och kryssningar.
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