From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 1 05:00:21 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?UTF-8?Q?Lasse_Schmidt_Westr=C3=A9n?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 11:00:21 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: <1456771089771.228033.1d3f25d520145637bee0a78098344e363699bdad@spica.telekom.de> References: <20160228233956.E6FF600@m0087792.ppops.net> <1456771089771.228033.1d3f25d520145637bee0a78098344e363699bdad@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: This is how I made my navlights: I am using approved nav-lights bought from the local boat shop for around 30 euros. I drilled two holes on the backside and filled the entire unit with transparent plastic used for conserving insects (very clear). [image: Epoxiharts TRD 50 Excellence] Epoxiharts TRD 50 Excellence We made a little over 300 dives last year and they are still going strong. Cheers Lasse 2016-02-29 19:38 GMT+01:00 MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after > diving.. > > > > http://www.lopolight.com/ > > > > They are very expensive too.. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights > > Datum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100 > > Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "PSubs" > > > > > > > Carsten, Are those new navigation lights something that you guys > made? or adapted from some existing lights? > > Brian Cox > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- Lasse Schmidt Westr?n Upplevelsepresent.se 070-28 32 660 Upplevelser, events och kryssningar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 1 10:31:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 07:31:12 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Message-ID: <20160301073112.E6F11BE@m0087792.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 1 10:50:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 16:50:04 +0100 (MET) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: References: <20160228233956.E6FF600@m0087792.ppops.net> <1456771089771.228033.1d3f25d520145637bee0a78098344e363699bdad@spica.telekom.de> <3DCD6545-5DA4-4BD8-82F0-F5EBFFDC66A4@optonline.net> <1456778827854.994350.5b692be08a4ff930148c313a94465293adda40f5@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1456847404583.1177589.3f733db3c3cd7fc9c1e87f296793b6006508bc4e@spica.telekom.de> Hi Antoine, the rules for sub are the same as for any other surface vessel. Just that some nation run a orange stroboscope (flash) light addirional or there (military )subs. You have to run lights if you try to run the boat in darkness or fog etc. At daylight for a daycruiser are no lights required. At least you have to have a white handlamp on board to show you (sport) boat. The rules reference different about the length of the vessel an the type. Any broschure about sportboats from you sportclub, goverment or coastguard can explain the rules for small boats. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-02-29T23:57:37+0100 Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hi Carsten thanks for bringing this subject up. where did you find these rules for ligthing subs? international or european or german ones? -i tried in colreg rules online but could not find text for subs travelling on surface -I found a reference to sub on some of the more comprehensive summary drawings showing all sorts of vessels ( http://www.sentinelpressllc.com/colregsnavigationlights.html ). Subs to come in with left green side lights, as well as 3 mast lights white 225? /amber 360? /white 225? -then the colreg rules for vertical separation of lights seem to say lower mast light 2m above deck mini, then other two lights at least 1m from each other (2m if boat over 20m long) all in all this makes a christmas tree 4 m high from top deck... -then also some online chat talking about exceptions for subs for height above water. for my litttle 6m boat I was planning to use off the shelf lights (2nm) and fit it in the acrylic tube which serves as mast and buoy (which i found the inspiration for looking at your videos!!), with its own power and IR remote switch but it is only 1m long, not 4... regards Antoine On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 9:47 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hmm. Toplight 245 Anchor Light 215 Sternlight 230 Strobelight abt. 250 Portside light 215 Starboard light. 215 1370 Euro - 1500 USD But on a 1-3 seater Psub you can run with just One Anchor light and one combination Position ligh red and green Together 215 + 239 = 454 Euro - 500 USD -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-02-29T21:21:36+0100 Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > The Lopo lights at rated for 600 m. A full setup for a vessel under 20 m with the special sub Strobe is about $2,300. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone On Feb 29, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Looked them up, and OUCH. About USD400 each. Carsten wasn't kidding. Best, Alec On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 1:38 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after diving.. http://www.lopolight.com/ They are very expensive too.. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100 Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "PSubs" > Carsten, Are those new navigation lights something that you guys made? or adapted from some existing lights? Brian Cox _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 1 10:51:46 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 16:51:46 +0100 (MET) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: <26cb861f.445c.1532f8547c8.Webtop.44@optonline.net> References: <20160228233956.E6FF600@m0087792.ppops.net> <1456771089771.228033.1d3f25d520145637bee0a78098344e363699bdad@spica.telekom.de> <3DCD6545-5DA4-4BD8-82F0-F5EBFFDC66A4@optonline.net> <1456778827854.994350.5b692be08a4ff930148c313a94465293adda40f5@spica.telekom.de> <26cb861f.445c.1532f8547c8.Webtop.44@optonline.net> Message-ID: <1456847506668.1134283.17ca85271e54b4fa281efa7a9d0dac0b8fadba9a@spica.telekom.de> Yes thats right and for the all around you can use what they sale as "Anchor light" -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-03-01T01:16:27+0100 Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" An: "PSUBS, Inc." Antoine Colregs allow for a vessel under 40' to display a combo red and green and an all around (360 deg) white to replace the masthead and stern lights. John L. (203)414-1000 On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 05:53 PM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Carsten thanks for bringing this subject up. where did you find these rules for ligthing subs? international or european or german ones? -i tried in colreg rules online but could not find text for subs travelling on surface -I found a reference to sub on some of the more comprehensive summary drawings showing all sorts of vessels ( http://www.sentinelpressllc.com/colregsnavigationlights.html ). Subs to come in with left green side lights, as well as 3 mast lights white 225? /amber 360? /white 225? -then the colreg rules for vertical separation of lights seem to say lower mast light 2m above deck mini, then other two lights at least 1m from each other (2m if boat over 20m long) all in all this makes a christmas tree 4 m high from top deck... -then also some online chat talking about exceptions for subs for height above water. for my litttle 6m boat I was planning to use off the shelf lights (2nm) and fit it in the acrylic tube which serves as mast and buoy (which i found the inspiration for looking at your videos!!), with its own power and IR remote switch but it is only 1m long, not 4... regards Antoine On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 9:47 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hmm. Toplight 245 Anchor Light 215 Sternlight 230 Strobelight abt. 250 Portside light 215 Starboard light. 215 1370 Euro - 1500 USD But on a 1-3 seater Psub you can run with just One Anchor light and one combination Position ligh red and green Together 215 + 239 = 454 Euro - 500 USD -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-02-29T21:21:36+0100 Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > The Lopo lights at rated for 600 m. A full setup for a vessel under 20 m with the special sub Strobe is about $2,300. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone On Feb 29, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Looked them up, and OUCH. About USD400 each. Carsten wasn't kidding. Best, Alec On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 1:38 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after diving.. http://www.lopolight.com/ They are very expensive too.. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100 Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "PSubs" > Carsten, Are those new navigation lights something that you guys made? or adapted from some existing lights? Brian Cox _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 1 10:54:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 16:54:22 +0100 (MET) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: References: <20160228233956.E6FF600@m0087792.ppops.net> <1456771089771.228033.1d3f25d520145637bee0a78098344e363699bdad@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1456847662565.25498.450a1d579b680b33f907f237e0296df115d729dd@spica.telekom.de> One way. Another is to fill them with a clear liquid like silicon or glyzerine. Another way is to purchase pressure tights or complete with resin filled led nav lights. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-03-01T11:04:23+0100 Von: "Lasse Schmidt Westr?n via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" This is how I made my navlights: I am using approved nav-lights bought from the local boat shop for around 30 euros. I drilled two holes on the backside and filled the entire unit with transparent plastic used for conserving insects (very clear). [Epoxiharts TRD 50 Excellence ] Epoxiharts TRD 50 Excellence We made a little over 300 dives last year and they are still going strong. Cheers Lasse 2016-02-29 19:38 GMT+01:00 MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > : they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after diving.. http://www.lopolight.com/ They are very expensive too.. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100 Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "PSubs" > Carsten, Are those new navigation lights something that you guys made? or adapted from some existing lights? Brian Cox _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Lasse Schmidt Westr?n Upplevelsepresent.se 070-28 32 660 Upplevelser, events och kryssningar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 1 10:59:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 04:59:57 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: <20160301073112.E6F11BE@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20160301073112.E6F11BE@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, the little LEDs don't need a driver but the more high powered ones do. You can run the high powered ones for a very short time & I often hook them up without a driver for a couple of seconds to check that they are going. However they need a constant current driver because as they heat up they will draw more & more current till they burn themselves out. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 2/03/2016, at 4:31 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I've seen LEDs that simply have two wires going to them, what is the difference with the ones with a controller? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights > Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 19:58:56 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > I was just going to use my wide angled flood lights (oil compensated) on a lower power & with > a red & green acrylic lense. I will be having the LED controller inside the hull. > Alan > > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 8:29 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights > > I wonder what is so great about them? I was thinking of drilling out some acrylic and potting LEDs inside for navigation lights. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights > Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 14:08:22 -0500 > > Looked them up, and OUCH. About USD400 each. Carsten wasn't kidding. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 1:38 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after diving.. > > http://www.lopolight.com/ > > They are very expensive too.. > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights > Datum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100 > Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "PSubs" > > > > Carsten, Are those new navigation lights something that you guys made? or adapted from some existing lights? > > Brian Cox > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 1 11:05:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 05:05:37 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: References: <20160228233956.E6FF600@m0087792.ppops.net> <1456771089771.228033.1d3f25d520145637bee0a78098344e363699bdad@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1726DD05-C994-4F19-9116-69DD829FCBFB@yahoo.com> Lasse, did you have the lights on much? I am concerned that if you cover them with resin then that will stop the transfer of heat from them & kill them. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 1/03/2016, at 11:00 pm, Lasse Schmidt Westr?n via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > This is how I made my navlights: > I am using approved nav-lights bought from the local boat shop for around 30 euros. I drilled two holes on the backside and filled the entire unit with transparent plastic used for conserving insects (very clear). > > > Epoxiharts TRD 50 Excellence > > We made a little over 300 dives last year and they are still going strong. > > Cheers Lasse > > > 2016-02-29 19:38 GMT+01:00 MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles : >> they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after diving.. >> >> >> >> http://www.lopolight.com/ >> >> >> >> They are very expensive too.. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights >> >> Datum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100 >> >> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> An: "PSubs" >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Carsten, Are those new navigation lights something that you guys made? or adapted from some existing lights? >> >> Brian Cox >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- > Lasse Schmidt Westr?n > Upplevelsepresent.se > 070-28 32 660 > > > Upplevelser, events och kryssningar. > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 1 11:05:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 17:05:57 +0100 (MET) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: <26cb861f.445c.1532f8547c8.Webtop.44@optonline.net> References: <20160228233956.E6FF600@m0087792.ppops.net> <1456771089771.228033.1d3f25d520145637bee0a78098344e363699bdad@spica.telekom.de> <3DCD6545-5DA4-4BD8-82F0-F5EBFFDC66A4@optonline.net> <1456778827854.994350.5b692be08a4ff930148c313a94465293adda40f5@spica.telekom.de> <26cb861f.445c.1532f8547c8.Webtop.44@optonline.net> Message-ID: <1456848357264.846842.353275a7e810859c3f7f3b58e6b3a189fcf8c1fa@spica.telekom.de> Here they are: http://www.c-dynamics.co/images/products/Lighting/C-Dynamics_Hella-Marine-Lighting_IMO-COLREG-72-Lights-Visibility-Powerboats.jpg http://content.westmarine.com/wm-img/westadvisor/articles/Navigation-lights-1.jpg http://www.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0009/117567/Power-Vessels.png http://img.bhs4.com/E7/E/E7E547B242CDC4C0A69BEFECF2FD2A5973D91A91_large.jpg http://rlv.zcache.com/navigation_lights_international_rules_poster-rbe7a13f840aa4bb8b56f61d6d50afeab_i1021_8byvr_1024.jpg vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-03-01T01:16:27+0100 Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" An: "PSUBS, Inc." Antoine Colregs allow for a vessel under 40' to display a combo red and green and an all around (360 deg) white to replace the masthead and stern lights. John L. (203)414-1000 On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 05:53 PM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Carsten thanks for bringing this subject up. where did you find these rules for ligthing subs? international or european or german ones? -i tried in colreg rules online but could not find text for subs travelling on surface -I found a reference to sub on some of the more comprehensive summary drawings showing all sorts of vessels ( http://www.sentinelpressllc.com/colregsnavigationlights.html ). Subs to come in with left green side lights, as well as 3 mast lights white 225? /amber 360? /white 225? -then the colreg rules for vertical separation of lights seem to say lower mast light 2m above deck mini, then other two lights at least 1m from each other (2m if boat over 20m long) all in all this makes a christmas tree 4 m high from top deck... -then also some online chat talking about exceptions for subs for height above water. for my litttle 6m boat I was planning to use off the shelf lights (2nm) and fit it in the acrylic tube which serves as mast and buoy (which i found the inspiration for looking at your videos!!), with its own power and IR remote switch but it is only 1m long, not 4... regards Antoine On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 9:47 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hmm. Toplight 245 Anchor Light 215 Sternlight 230 Strobelight abt. 250 Portside light 215 Starboard light. 215 1370 Euro - 1500 USD But on a 1-3 seater Psub you can run with just One Anchor light and one combination Position ligh red and green Together 215 + 239 = 454 Euro - 500 USD -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-02-29T21:21:36+0100 Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > The Lopo lights at rated for 600 m. A full setup for a vessel under 20 m with the special sub Strobe is about $2,300. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone On Feb 29, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Looked them up, and OUCH. About USD400 each. Carsten wasn't kidding. Best, Alec On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 1:38 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after diving.. http://www.lopolight.com/ They are very expensive too.. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100 Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "PSubs" > Carsten, Are those new navigation lights something that you guys made? or adapted from some existing lights? Brian Cox _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 1 17:57:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 17:57:09 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fwd: How do you ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56D61E45.9020100@ohiohills.com> -------- Forwarded Message -------- Inline image 2 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 41118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 1 20:17:40 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 21:17:40 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sail design Message-ID: Yes, the Pisces has a rubbet flap that drains the water out of the sail. Sorry for my late response. Katy and I are in St. Croix and St. Thomas doing some diving :)Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 02/27/2016 3:40 PM (GMT-04:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sail design Hi Scott,Does your Pisces sail have water drains with flaps to keep water out or are the vents free flowing.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 1 23:10:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 04:10:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sail design In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1884586599.2097236.1456891859291.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Scott,post a link if you do a dive video. Wouldenjoy seeing what it was like.Alan From: Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sail design Yes, the Pisces has a rubbet flap that drains the water out of the sail. Sorry for my late response. Katy and I are in St. Croix and St. Thomas doing some diving :)Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 02/27/2016 3:40 PM (GMT-04:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sail design Hi Scott,Does your Pisces sail have water drains with flaps to keep water out or are the vents free flowing.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 05:05:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 11:05:15 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: <1456848357264.846842.353275a7e810859c3f7f3b58e6b3a189fcf8c1fa@spica.telekom.de> References: <20160228233956.E6FF600@m0087792.ppops.net> <1456771089771.228033.1d3f25d520145637bee0a78098344e363699bdad@spica.telekom.de> <3DCD6545-5DA4-4BD8-82F0-F5EBFFDC66A4@optonline.net> <1456778827854.994350.5b692be08a4ff930148c313a94465293adda40f5@spica.telekom.de> <26cb861f.445c.1532f8547c8.Webtop.44@optonline.net> <1456848357264.846842.353275a7e810859c3f7f3b58e6b3a189fcf8c1fa@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: ok thank you the 3 lights that the military subs use and that are visible on the last link had me confused. in my case I am just less than 7m and less than 7kt so all round white light would be enough regards Antoine On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:05 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > Here they are: > > > > > http://www.c-dynamics.co/images/products/Lighting/C-Dynamics_Hella-Marine-Lighting_IMO-COLREG-72-Lights-Visibility-Powerboats.jpg > > > > > http://content.westmarine.com/wm-img/westadvisor/articles/Navigation-lights-1.jpg > > > > http://www.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0009/117567/Power-Vessels.png > > > > http://img.bhs4.com/E7/E/E7E547B242CDC4C0A69BEFECF2FD2A5973D91A91_large.jpg > > > > > http://rlv.zcache.com/navigation_lights_international_rules_poster-rbe7a13f840aa4bb8b56f61d6d50afeab_i1021_8byvr_1024.jpg > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights > > Datum: 2016-03-01T01:16:27+0100 > > Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > > An: "PSUBS, Inc." > > > > > > > > Antoine > > Colregs allow for a vessel under 40' to display a combo red and green and > an all around (360 deg) white to replace the masthead and stern lights. > > John L. > (203)414-1000 > > > On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 05:53 PM, Antoine Delafargue via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Hi Carsten > thanks for bringing this subject up. > > where did you find these rules for ligthing subs? international or > european or german ones? > > -i tried in colreg rules online but could not find text for subs > travelling on surface > -I found a reference to sub on some of the more comprehensive summary > drawings showing all sorts of vessels ( > http://www.sentinelpressllc.com/colregsnavigationlights.html). Subs to > come in with left green side lights, as well as 3 mast lights white 225? > /amber 360? /white 225? > -then the colreg rules for vertical separation of lights seem to say lower > mast light 2m above deck mini, then other two lights at least 1m from each > other (2m if boat over 20m long) > all in all this makes a christmas tree 4 m high from top deck... > -then also some online chat talking about exceptions for subs for height > above water. > > for my litttle 6m boat I was planning to use off the shelf lights (2nm) > and fit it in the acrylic tube which serves as mast and buoy (which i found > the inspiration for looking at your videos!!), with its own power and IR > remote switch > but it is only 1m long, not 4... > > > regards > Antoine > > > > > On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 9:47 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de > via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> Hmm. >> >> >> >> Toplight 245 >> >> Anchor Light 215 >> >> Sternlight 230 >> >> Strobelight abt. 250 >> >> Portside light 215 >> >> Starboard light. 215 >> >> >> >> 1370 Euro - 1500 USD >> >> >> >> >> >> But on a 1-3 seater Psub you can run with just >> >> One Anchor light and one combination Position ligh red and green >> >> Together 215 + 239 = 454 Euro - 500 USD >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights >> >> Datum: 2016-02-29T21:21:36+0100 >> >> Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> > >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Lopo lights at rated for 600 m. A full setup for a vessel under 20 m >> with the special sub Strobe is about $2,300. >> >> John K. >> (203) 414-1000 >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Feb 29, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> > wrote: >> >> Looked them up, and OUCH. About USD400 each. Carsten wasn't kidding. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 1:38 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de >> via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >>> they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after >>> diving.. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.lopolight.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> They are very expensive too.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> >>> Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights >>> >>> Datum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100 >>> >>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> > >>> >>> An: "PSubs" >> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Carsten, Are those new navigation lights something that you guys >>> made? or adapted from some existing lights? >>> >>> Brian Cox >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 07:12:52 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 07:12:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: References: <20160228233956.E6FF600@m0087792.ppops.net> <1456771089771.228033.1d3f25d520145637bee0a78098344e363699bdad@spica.telekom.de> <3DCD6545-5DA4-4BD8-82F0-F5EBFFDC66A4@optonline.net> <1456778827854.994350.5b692be08a4ff930148c313a94465293adda40f5@spica.telekom.de> <26cb861f.445c.1532f8547c8.Webtop.44@optonline.net> <1456848357264.846842.353275a7e810859c3f7f3b58e6b3a189fcf8c1fa@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <11cbcf3e.61bf.153373ec032.Webtop.58@optonline.net> Antoine ? The lights show side lights (red and green), masthead light (lower white) special sub strobe (amber) and range light higher (white light) for vessels over 150'?which is not always used on subs. ? Your boat is only required to display Port (Red) and Starboard?(Green) side lights (For small boat under 40' combo light OK) and one all around (360 Deg.) white light. If underway after sunset or in reduced visibility. ? John K. (203) 414-1000 ? ? ? On Wed, Mar 02, 2016 at 05:05 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? ok thank you the 3 lights that the military subs use and that are visible on the last link had me confused.? in my case I am just less than 7m and less than 7kt so all round white light would be enough regards Antoine On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:05 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here they are:? ? http://www.c-dynamics.co/images/products/Lighting/C-Dynamics_Hella-Marine-Lighting_IMO-COLREG-72-Lights-Visibility-Powerboats.jpg ? http://content.westmarine.com/wm-img/westadvisor/articles/Navigation-lights-1.jpg ? http://www.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0009/117567/Power-Vessels.png ? http://img.bhs4.com/E7/E/E7E547B242CDC4C0A69BEFECF2FD2A5973D91A91_large.jpg ? http://rlv.zcache.com/navigation_lights_international_rules_poster-rbe7a13f840aa4bb8b56f61d6d50afeab_i1021_8byvr_1024.jpg ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-03-01T01:16:27+0100 Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" An: "PSUBS, Inc." ? ? ? Antoine ? Colregs allow for a vessel under 40' to display a combo red and green? and an all around (360 deg)?white to replace the masthead and stern lights. ? John L. (203)414-1000 ? ? On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 05:53 PM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? Hi Carsten? thanks for bringing this subject up.? where did you find these rules for ligthing subs? ?international or european or german ones?? ? -i tried in colreg rules online but ?could not find text for subs travelling on surface -I found a reference to sub on some of the more comprehensive summary drawings showing all sorts of vessels (http://www.sentinelpressllc.com/colregsnavigationlights.html ). Subs to come in with left green side lights, as well as 3 mast lights white 225? /amber 360? /white 225? -then the colreg rules for vertical separation of lights seem to say lower mast light 2m above deck mini, then other two lights at least 1m from each other (2m if boat over 20m long) all in all this makes a christmas tree 4 m high from top deck... -then also some online chat talking about exceptions for subs for height above water.? ? for my litttle 6m boat I was planning to use off the shelf lights (2nm) and fit it in the acrylic tube which serves as mast and buoy (which i found the inspiration for looking at your videos!!), with its own power and IR remote switch but it is only 1m long, not 4... ? ? regards Antoine ? ? ? On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 9:47 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hmm. ? Toplight????????????? 245 Anchor Light???? ? 215 Sternlight?????????? 230 Strobelight?? abt. 250 Portside light????? 215 Starboard light.?? 215 ? 1370 Euro?? - 1500? USD ? ? But on a 1-3 seater Psub you can run with just One Anchor light and one combination Position ligh red and green Together 215 +? 239 = 454 Euro - 500 USD ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-02-29T21:21:36+0100 Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? The Lopo lights at rated for 600 m. A full setup for a vessel under 20 m with the special sub Strobe is about $2,300. ? John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone On Feb 29, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looked them up, and OUCH. About USD400 each. Carsten wasn't kidding. ? Best, Alec On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 1:38 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after diving.. ? http://www.lopolight.com/ ? They are very expensive too.. ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100 Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" An: "PSubs" ? ? ? Carsten,??????? Are those new navigation lights something that you guys made??? or adapted from some existing lights? ? Brian Cox _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 07:13:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 08:13:22 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sail design Message-ID: I didn't do any video, but have several pictures on my facebook. It is beautiful water here.Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/02/2016 12:10 AM (GMT-04:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sail design Scott,post a link if you do a dive video. Wouldenjoy seeing what it was like.Alan ????? From: Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sail design ?? Yes, the Pisces has a rubbet flap that drains the water out of the sail. Sorry for my late response. Katy and I are in St. Croix and St. Thomas doing some diving :)Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 07:41:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 05:41:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Message-ID: Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal condition monitor, and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch dogs to provide the initial o-ring squeeze. My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as long as the vacuum holds, and activates the moment the seal is released, instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to indicate that it is open. Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share anyway. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 07:49:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 05:49:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: <11cbcf3e.61bf.153373ec032.Webtop.58@optonline.net> References: <20160228233956.E6FF600@m0087792.ppops.net> <1456771089771.228033.1d3f25d520145637bee0a78098344e363699bdad@spica.telekom.de> <3DCD6545-5DA4-4BD8-82F0-F5EBFFDC66A4@optonline.net> <1456778827854.994350.5b692be08a4ff930148c313a94465293adda40f5@spica.telekom.de> <26cb861f.445c.1532f8547c8.Webtop.44@optonline.net> <1456848357264.846842.353275a7e810859c3f7f3b58e6b3a189fcf8c1fa@spica.telekom.de> <11cbcf3e.61bf.153373ec032.Webtop.58@optonline.net> Message-ID: The all-round white light is just a convenient (in some cases) way of combining the 225? white masthead light (indicating a power driven vessel), with the 135? white stern light into a single lamp. I am not aware of specific prescriptions in the international colregs for submarines. I thought amber strobes denoted ACV (hovercraft)? Sean On March 2, 2016 5:12:52 AM MST, John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Antoine >? >The lights show side lights (red and green), masthead light (lower >white) special sub strobe (amber) and range light higher (white light) >for vessels over 150'?which is not always used on subs. >? >Your boat is only required to display Port (Red) and Starboard?(Green) >side lights (For small boat under 40' combo light OK) and one all >around >(360 Deg.) white light. If underway after sunset or in reduced >visibility. >? >John K. >(203) 414-1000 > >? >? >? >On Wed, Mar 02, 2016 at 05:05 AM, Antoine Delafargue via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: >? >? >ok thank you >the 3 lights that the military subs use and that are visible on the >last >link had me confused.? > > >in my case I am just less than 7m and less than 7kt so all round white >light would be enough > > >regards >Antoine > > > > > >On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:05 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Here they are:? > >? > >http://www.c-dynamics.co/images/products/Lighting/C-Dynamics_Hella-Marine-Lighting_IMO-COLREG-72-Lights-Visibility-Powerboats.jpg > > > >? > >http://content.westmarine.com/wm-img/westadvisor/articles/Navigation-lights-1.jpg > > > >? > >http://www.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0009/117567/Power-Vessels.png > > >? > >http://img.bhs4.com/E7/E/E7E547B242CDC4C0A69BEFECF2FD2A5973D91A91_large.jpg > > > >? > >http://rlv.zcache.com/navigation_lights_international_rules_poster-rbe7a13f840aa4bb8b56f61d6d50afeab_i1021_8byvr_1024.jpg > > > >? > >vbr Carsten > >? > >? > >? > >-----Original-Nachricht----- > >Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights > >Datum: 2016-03-01T01:16:27+0100 > >Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" > > >An: "PSUBS, Inc." > > >? > >? > >? > >Antoine > >? > > >Colregs allow for a vessel under 40' to display a combo red and green? >and an all around (360 deg)?white to replace the masthead and stern >lights. > > > > >? > > >John L. > > >(203)414-1000 > > >? > > >? > >On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 05:53 PM, Antoine Delafargue via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >? > > >? > > > >Hi Carsten? > >thanks for bringing this subject up.? > > > > >where did you find these rules for ligthing subs? ?international or >european or german ones?? > > >? > > >-i tried in colreg rules online but ?could not find text for subs >travelling on surface > > >-I found a reference to sub on some of the more comprehensive summary >drawings showing all sorts of vessels >(http://www.sentinelpressllc.com/colregsnavigationlights.html > ). Subs >to come in with left green side lights, as well as 3 mast lights white >225? /amber 360? /white 225? > > >-then the colreg rules for vertical separation of lights seem to say >lower mast light 2m above deck mini, then other two lights at least 1m >from each other (2m if boat over 20m long) > > >all in all this makes a christmas tree 4 m high from top deck... > > >-then also some online chat talking about exceptions for subs for >height >above water.? > > >? > > >for my litttle 6m boat I was planning to use off the shelf lights (2nm) > >and fit it in the acrylic tube which serves as mast and buoy (which i >found the inspiration for looking at your videos!!), with its own power > >and IR remote switch > > >but it is only 1m long, not 4... > > >? > > >? > > >regards > > >Antoine > > >? > > >? > > >? > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 9:47 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > >Hmm. > > >? > >Toplight????????????? 245 > >Anchor Light???? ? 215 > >Sternlight?????????? 230 > >Strobelight?? abt. 250 > >Portside light????? 215 > >Starboard light.?? 215 > >? > >1370 Euro?? - 1500? USD > >? > >? > >But on a 1-3 seater Psub you can run with just > >One Anchor light and one combination Position ligh red and green > >Together 215 +? 239 = 454 Euro - 500 USD > >? > >? > >? > >-----Original-Nachricht----- > >Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights > >Datum: 2016-02-29T21:21:36+0100 > >Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" > > >An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > >? > >? > >? > > > >The Lopo lights at rated for 600 m. A full setup for a vessel under 20 >m >with the special sub Strobe is about $2,300. > > > > > > >? > > >John K. > > >(203) 414-1000 > > >Sent from my iPhone > > >On Feb 29, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > > >Looked them up, and OUCH. About USD400 each. Carsten wasn't kidding. > >? > > >Best, > > >Alec > > > > > > >On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 1:38 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > >they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after >diving.. > > >? > >http://www.lopolight.com/ > >? > >They are very expensive too.. > >? > >? > >? > >? > >-----Original-Nachricht----- > >Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights > >Datum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100 > >Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" > > >An: "PSubs" > >? > >? > >? > > > > > >Carsten,??????? Are those new navigation lights something that you guys > >made??? or adapted from some existing lights? > > >? > > >Brian Cox > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 08:07:17 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 13:07:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <103379270.1731603.1456924037937.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,How far apart will the o-rings be to give you adequate area to pull a vacuum against. ?Hank On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 6:04 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The all-round white light is just a convenient (in some cases) way of combining the 225? white masthead light (indicating a power driven vessel), with the 135? white stern light into a single lamp. I am not aware of specific prescriptions in the international colregs for submarines. I thought amber strobes denoted ACV (hovercraft)?Sean On March 2, 2016 5:12:52 AM MST, John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Antoine?The lights show side lights (red and green), masthead light (lower white) special sub strobe (amber) and range light higher (white light) for vessels over 150'?which is not always used on subs. ?Your boat is only required to display Port (Red) and Starboard?(Green) side lights (For small boat under 40' combo light OK) and one all around (360 Deg.) white light. If underway after sunset or in reduced visibility.?John K.(203) 414-1000???On Wed, Mar 02, 2016 at 05:05 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? ok thank youthe 3 lights that the military subs use and that are! visibleon the last link had me confused.? in my case I am just less than 7m and less than 7kt so all round white light would be enough regardsAntoine On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:05 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here they are:? ?http://www.c-dynamics.co/images/products/Lighting/C-Dynamics_Hella-Marine-Lighting_IMO-COLREG-72-Lights-Visibility-Powerboats.jpg?http://content.westmarine.com/wm-img/westadvisor/articles/Navigation-lights-1.jpg?http://www.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0009/117567/Power-Vessels.png?http://img.bhs4.com/E7/E/E7E547B242CDC4C0A69BEFECF2FD2A5973D91A91_large.jpg?http://rlv.zcache.com/navigation_lights_international_rules_poster-rbe7a13f840aa4bb8b56f61d6d50afeab_i1021_8byvr_1024.jpg?vbr Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lightsDatum: 2016-03-01T01:16:27+0100Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" An: "PSUBS, Inc." ???Antoine?Colregs allow for a vessel under 40' to display a combo red and green? and an all around (360 deg)?white to replace the masthead and stern lights.?John L.(203)414-1000??On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 05:53 PM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? Hi Carsten?thanks for bringing this subject up.? where did you find these rules for ligthing subs? ?international or european or german ones???-i tried in colreg rules online but ?could not find text for subs travelling on surface-I found a reference to sub on some of the more comprehensive summary drawings showing all sorts of vessels (http://www.sentinelpressllc.com/colregsnavigationlights.html). Subs to come in with left green side lights, as well as 3 mast lights white 225? /amber 360? /white 225?-then the colreg rules for vertical separation of lights seem to say lower mast light 2m above deck mini, then other two lights at least 1m from each other (2m if boat over 20m long)all in all this makes a christmas tree 4 m high from top deck...-then also some online chat talking about exceptions for subs for height above water.??for my litttle 6m boat I was planning to use off the shelf lights (2nm) and fit it in the acrylic tube which serves as mast and buoy (which i found the inspiration for looking at your videos!!), with its own power and IR remote switchbut it is only 1m long, not 4...??regardsAntoine??? On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 9:47 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hmm. ?Toplight????????????? 245Anchor Light???? ? 215Sternlight?????????? 230Strobelight?? abt. 250Portside light????? 215Starboard light.?? 215 ?1370 Euro?? - 1500? USD??But on a 1-3 seater Psub you can run with just One Anchor light and one combination Position ligh red and green Together 215 +? 239 = 454 Euro - 500 USD ???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lightsDatum: 2016-02-29T21:21:36+0100Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???The Lopo lights at rated for 600 m. A full setup for a vessel under 20 m with the special sub Strobe is about $2,300.?John K.(203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone On Feb 29, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looked them up, and OUCH. About USD400 each. Carsten wasn't kidding.?Best, Alec On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 1:38 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after diving.. ?http://www.lopolight.com/?They are very expensive too.. ????-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lightsDatum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" An: "PSubs" ???Carsten,??????? Are those new navigation lights something that you guys made??? or adapted from some existing lights??Brian Cox _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 08:12:47 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 13:12:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1536612397.1780095.1456924367794.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,?What is a vacuum transducer? ? On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 5:41 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal condition monitor, and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch dogs to provide the initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as long as the vacuum holds, and activates the moment the seal is rele! ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share anyway.Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 08:22:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 13:22:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1989836130.1776229.1456924924189.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,I got it now, the transducer is a electronic sensor to let you know the amount of vacuum. ?Hank On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 5:42 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal condition monitor, and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch dogs to provide the initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as long as the vacuum holds, and activates the moment the seal is rele! ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share anyway.Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 08:38:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 06:38:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: <1536612397.1780095.1456924367794.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1536612397.1780095.1456924367794.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A pressure transducer designed to measure the range of absolute pressures below standard atmospheric pressure. When you buy pressure transducers, you have three types of available measurements: 1) gauge pressure, where one side of the sensing element is open to the ambient pressure, and the transducer gives you only the pressure above that. E.g. 100 psig is 100 psi over ambient. Your SCUBA regulator maintains an intermediate pressure of 100 - 150 psig, while the absolute pressure changes with depth. 2) absolute pressure, where one side of the sensing element is exposed to a sealed vacuum reference chamber, and the transducer gives you the full pressure reading referenced to zero. 100 psia is 100 psi, period. 3) differential pressure, where there are process connections to both sides of the sensing element, so you get only the difference between them. 100 psid is 100 psi difference between sides, with no regard for what the absolute pressure is. A vacuum transducer would be an example of an absolute pressure transducer, with, for example, a measurement range of 0 psia to 15 psia, which could be expressed as negative gauge pressure, but such transducers are not constructed as gauge transducers because atmospheric pressure varies - zero does not. Sean On March 2, 2016 6:12:47 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,?What is a vacuum transducer? ? > >On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 5:41 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up >with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal >condition monitor, and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in >the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch >dogs to provide the initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two >o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, >outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner >lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are >concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for >positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or >manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each >half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This >intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the >sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through >appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this >intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump >allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured >by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as >long as the vacuum holds, and activates the moment the seal is rele! >ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to >indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a >potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout >hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive >transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating >the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - >I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share >anyway.Sean > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 08:48:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 06:48:38 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: References: <1536612397.1780095.1456924367794.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <34fcf11c-4740-492a-9ae2-b25b2aa377cc@email.android.com> I should elaborate a bit on transducer construction - the sensing element is essentially just a thin diaphragm that is instrumented with strain gauges (a four gauge Wheatstone bridge). To manufacture a transducer with greater sensitivity (lower range), the diaphragm must be thinner / less stiff, but then it also has less tolerance to pressure before it is damaged. When you buy transducers, the specifications will list their range (over which they can be expected to produce a linear proportional signal), and their exposure limits (maximum tolerable pressure before the sensing element is damaged). Sean On March 2, 2016 6:38:18 AM MST, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >A pressure transducer designed to measure the range of absolute >pressures below standard atmospheric pressure. When you buy pressure >transducers, you have three types of available measurements: > >1) gauge pressure, where one side of the sensing element is open to the >ambient pressure, and the transducer gives you only the pressure above >that. E.g. 100 psig is 100 psi over ambient. Your SCUBA regulator >maintains an intermediate pressure of 100 - 150 psig, while the >absolute pressure changes with depth. >2) absolute pressure, where one side of the sensing element is exposed >to a sealed vacuum reference chamber, and the transducer gives you the >full pressure reading referenced to zero. 100 psia is 100 psi, period. >3) differential pressure, where there are process connections to both >sides of the sensing element, so you get only the difference between >them. 100 psid is 100 psi difference between sides, with no regard for >what the absolute pressure is. > >A vacuum transducer would be an example of an absolute pressure >transducer, with, for example, a measurement range of 0 psia to 15 >psia, which could be expressed as negative gauge pressure, but such >transducers are not constructed as gauge transducers because >atmospheric pressure varies - zero does not. > >Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 6:12:47 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>Sean,?What is a vacuum transducer? ? >> >>On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 5:41 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >>Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up >>with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a >seal >>condition monitor, and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in >>the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch >>dogs to provide the initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two >>o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, >>outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner >>lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings >are >>concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for >>positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or >>manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each >>half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This >>intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the >>sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through >>appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this >>intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump >>allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured >>by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear >as >>long as the vacuum holds, and activates the moment the seal is rele! >>ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to >>indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a >>potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the >lockout >>hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive >>transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of >isolating >>the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - >>I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share >>anyway.Sean >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 08:53:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 06:53:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: <103379270.1731603.1456924037937.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <103379270.1731603.1456924037937.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It really doesn't matter, other than that this area will define how much force is holding down the hatch in the absence of a pressure differential. At atmospheric pressure, 14.7 pounds per square inch of area in that space. Sean On March 2, 2016 6:07:17 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,How far apart will the o-rings be to give you adequate area to >pull a vacuum against. ?Hank > >On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 6:04 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >The all-round white light is just a convenient (in some cases) way of >combining the 225? white masthead light (indicating a power driven >vessel), with the 135? white stern light into a single lamp. I am not >aware of specific prescriptions in the international colregs for >submarines. I thought amber strobes denoted ACV (hovercraft)?Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 5:12:52 AM MST, John Kammerer via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Antoine?The lights show side lights (red and green), masthead light >(lower white) special sub strobe (amber) and range light higher (white >light) for vessels over 150'?which is not always used on subs. ?Your >boat is only required to display Port (Red) and Starboard?(Green) side >lights (For small boat under 40' combo light OK) and one all around >(360 Deg.) white light. If underway after sunset or in reduced >visibility.?John K.(203) 414-1000???On Wed, Mar 02, 2016 at 05:05 AM, >Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? >ok thank youthe 3 lights that the military subs use and that are! >visibleon the last link had me confused.? >in my case I am just less than 7m and less than 7kt so all round white >light would be enough >regardsAntoine > > > >On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:05 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Here they are:? >?http://www.c-dynamics.co/images/products/Lighting/C-Dynamics_Hella-Marine-Lighting_IMO-COLREG-72-Lights-Visibility-Powerboats.jpg?http://content.westmarine.com/wm-img/westadvisor/articles/Navigation-lights-1.jpg?http://www.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0009/117567/Power-Vessels.png?http://img.bhs4.com/E7/E/E7E547B242CDC4C0A69BEFECF2FD2A5973D91A91_large.jpg?http://rlv.zcache.com/navigation_lights_international_rules_poster-rbe7a13f840aa4bb8b56f61d6d50afeab_i1021_8byvr_1024.jpg?vbr >Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] >Euronaut's new lightsDatum: 2016-03-01T01:16:27+0100Von: "John Kammerer >via Personal_Submersibles" An: "PSUBS, >Inc." ???Antoine?Colregs allow for a >vessel under 40' to display a combo red and green? and an all around >(360 deg)?white to replace the masthead and stern lights.?John >L.(203)414-1000??On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 05:53 PM, Antoine Delafargue >via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? >Hi Carsten?thanks for bringing this subject up.? >where did you find these rules for ligthing subs? ?international or >european or german ones???-i tried in colreg rules online but ?could >not find text for subs travelling on surface-I found a reference to sub >on some of the more comprehensive summary drawings showing all sorts of >vessels (http://www.sentinelpressllc.com/colregsnavigationlights.html). >Subs to come in with left green side lights, as well as 3 mast lights >white 225? /amber 360? /white 225?-then the colreg rules for vertical >separation of lights seem to say lower mast light 2m above deck mini, >then other two lights at least 1m from each other (2m if boat over 20m >long)all in all this makes a christmas tree 4 m high from top >deck...-then also some online chat talking about exceptions for subs >for height above water.??for my litttle 6m boat I was planning to use >off the shelf lights (2nm) and fit it in the acrylic tube which serves >as mast and buoy (which i found the inspiration for looking at your >videos!!), with its own power and IR remote switchbut it is only 1m >long, not 4...??regardsAntoine??? >On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 9:47 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Hmm. >?Toplight????????????? 245Anchor Light???? ? 215Sternlight?????????? >230Strobelight?? abt. 250Portside light????? 215Starboard light.?? 215 >?1370 Euro?? - 1500? USD??But on a 1-3 seater Psub you can run with >just One Anchor light and one combination Position ligh red and green >Together 215 +? 239 = 454 Euro - 500 USD >???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's >new lightsDatum: 2016-02-29T21:21:36+0100Von: "John Kammerer via >Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal >Submersibles General Discussion" >???The Lopo lights at rated for 600 m. >A full setup for a vessel under 20 m with the special sub Strobe is >about $2,300.?John K.(203) 414-1000 >Sent from my iPhone >On Feb 29, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >Looked them up, and OUCH. About USD400 each. Carsten wasn't >kidding.?Best, >Alec >On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 1:38 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after >diving.. >?http://www.lopolight.com/?They are very expensive too.. >????-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new >lightsDatum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100Von: "Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles" An: "PSubs" >???Carsten,??????? Are those new >navigation lights something that you guys made??? or adapted from some >existing lights??Brian Cox >_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 09:26:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 15:26:58 +0100 (MET) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: References: <20160228233956.E6FF600@m0087792.ppops.net> <1456771089771.228033.1d3f25d520145637bee0a78098344e363699bdad@spica.telekom.de> <3DCD6545-5DA4-4BD8-82F0-F5EBFFDC66A4@optonline.net> <1456778827854.994350.5b692be08a4ff930148c313a94465293adda40f5@spica.telekom.de> <26cb861f.445c.1532f8547c8.Webtop.44@optonline.net> <1456848357264.846842.353275a7e810859c3f7f3b58e6b3a189fcf8c1fa@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1456928818083.632169.7e9c1a372b4eff63de9eaf0bd060e9f6240881ad@spica.telekom.de> Dear Antoine, it depents on you use. If you try to run at night and/or offshore I would strongly recommend at least a tricolour red/green/white light (sailboat under sail) so another vessel has chance to figure out your sailing direction. A pure white around will normaly sugesst: I see your stern light from aft. You run away from me. Or you are at anchor. Special not very clever if the other boat comes from forward.. A good minimum for a small Psubs is a red-green combi and a all around white about one meter higher on a Mast. By the way this white around is also nice as docking light in the harbour. So nobody can overseen you dark, deep in the water sub on the ponton and use is as fender.. Its with the rules if the Lights are temporaly. so you can use surface types with a battery or with a cable via the open hatch or a (watertight) socket. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-03-02T11:09:11+0100 Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ok thank you the 3 lights that the military subs use and that are visible on the last link had me confused. in my case I am just less than 7m and less than 7kt so all round white light would be enough regards Antoine On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:05 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here they are: http://www.c-dynamics.co/images/products/Lighting/C-Dynamics_Hella-Marine-Lighting_IMO-COLREG-72-Lights-Visibility-Powerboats.jpg http://content.westmarine.com/wm-img/westadvisor/articles/Navigation-lights-1.jpg http://www.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0009/117567/Power-Vessels.png http://img.bhs4.com/E7/E/E7E547B242CDC4C0A69BEFECF2FD2A5973D91A91_large.jpg http://rlv.zcache.com/navigation_lights_international_rules_poster-rbe7a13f840aa4bb8b56f61d6d50afeab_i1021_8byvr_1024.jpg vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-03-01T01:16:27+0100 Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> An: "PSUBS, Inc." Antoine Colregs allow for a vessel under 40' to display a combo red and green and an all around (360 deg) white to replace the masthead and stern lights. John L. (203)414-1000 On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 05:53 PM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Carsten thanks for bringing this subject up. where did you find these rules for ligthing subs? international or european or german ones? -i tried in colreg rules online but could not find text for subs travelling on surface -I found a reference to sub on some of the more comprehensive summary drawings showing all sorts of vessels ( http://www.sentinelpressllc.com/colregsnavigationlights.html ). Subs to come in with left green side lights, as well as 3 mast lights white 225? /amber 360? /white 225? -then the colreg rules for vertical separation of lights seem to say lower mast light 2m above deck mini, then other two lights at least 1m from each other (2m if boat over 20m long) all in all this makes a christmas tree 4 m high from top deck... -then also some online chat talking about exceptions for subs for height above water. for my litttle 6m boat I was planning to use off the shelf lights (2nm) and fit it in the acrylic tube which serves as mast and buoy (which i found the inspiration for looking at your videos!!), with its own power and IR remote switch but it is only 1m long, not 4... regards Antoine On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 9:47 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hmm. Toplight 245 Anchor Light 215 Sternlight 230 Strobelight abt. 250 Portside light 215 Starboard light. 215 1370 Euro - 1500 USD But on a 1-3 seater Psub you can run with just One Anchor light and one combination Position ligh red and green Together 215 + 239 = 454 Euro - 500 USD -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-02-29T21:21:36+0100 Von: "John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> The Lopo lights at rated for 600 m. A full setup for a vessel under 20 m with the special sub Strobe is about $2,300. John K. (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone On Feb 29, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Looked them up, and OUCH. About USD400 each. Carsten wasn't kidding. Best, Alec On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 1:38 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after diving.. http://www.lopolight.com/ They are very expensive too.. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights Datum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100 Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> An: "PSubs" Carsten, Are those new navigation lights something that you guys made? or adapted from some existing lights? Brian Cox _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 09:20:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 07:20:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: References: <103379270.1731603.1456924037937.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <14ec24f9-4ff2-4f79-9404-8d92b259e55a@email.android.com> Sorry, looks like I derailed the wrong thread. Sean On March 2, 2016 6:53:15 AM MST, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >It really doesn't matter, other than that this area will define how >much force is holding down the hatch in the absence of a pressure >differential. At atmospheric pressure, 14.7 pounds per square inch of >area in that space. > >Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 6:07:17 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>Sean,How far apart will the o-rings be to give you adequate area to >>pull a vacuum against. ?Hank >> >>On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 6:04 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >>The all-round white light is just a convenient (in some cases) way of >>combining the 225? white masthead light (indicating a power driven >>vessel), with the 135? white stern light into a single lamp. I am not >>aware of specific prescriptions in the international colregs for >>submarines. I thought amber strobes denoted ACV (hovercraft)?Sean >> >> >>On March 2, 2016 5:12:52 AM MST, John Kammerer via >>Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>Antoine?The lights show side lights (red and green), masthead light >>(lower white) special sub strobe (amber) and range light higher (white >>light) for vessels over 150'?which is not always used on subs. ?Your >>boat is only required to display Port (Red) and Starboard?(Green) side >>lights (For small boat under 40' combo light OK) and one all around >>(360 Deg.) white light. If underway after sunset or in reduced >>visibility.?John K.(203) 414-1000???On Wed, Mar 02, 2016 at 05:05 AM, >>Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? >>ok thank youthe 3 lights that the military subs use and that are! >>visibleon the last link had me confused.? >>in my case I am just less than 7m and less than 7kt so all round white >>light would be enough >>regardsAntoine >> >> >> >>On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:05 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >>Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>Here they are:? >>?http://www.c-dynamics.co/images/products/Lighting/C-Dynamics_Hella-Marine-Lighting_IMO-COLREG-72-Lights-Visibility-Powerboats.jpg?http://content.westmarine.com/wm-img/westadvisor/articles/Navigation-lights-1.jpg?http://www.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0009/117567/Power-Vessels.png?http://img.bhs4.com/E7/E/E7E547B242CDC4C0A69BEFECF2FD2A5973D91A91_large.jpg?http://rlv.zcache.com/navigation_lights_international_rules_poster-rbe7a13f840aa4bb8b56f61d6d50afeab_i1021_8byvr_1024.jpg?vbr >>Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] >>Euronaut's new lightsDatum: 2016-03-01T01:16:27+0100Von: "John >Kammerer >>via Personal_Submersibles" An: >"PSUBS, >>Inc." ???Antoine?Colregs allow for a >>vessel under 40' to display a combo red and green? and an all around >>(360 deg)?white to replace the masthead and stern lights.?John >>L.(203)414-1000??On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 05:53 PM, Antoine Delafargue >>via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? >>Hi Carsten?thanks for bringing this subject up.? >>where did you find these rules for ligthing subs? ?international or >>european or german ones???-i tried in colreg rules online but ?could >>not find text for subs travelling on surface-I found a reference to >sub >>on some of the more comprehensive summary drawings showing all sorts >of >>vessels >(http://www.sentinelpressllc.com/colregsnavigationlights.html). >>Subs to come in with left green side lights, as well as 3 mast lights >>white 225? /amber 360? /white 225?-then the colreg rules for vertical >>separation of lights seem to say lower mast light 2m above deck mini, >>then other two lights at least 1m from each other (2m if boat over 20m >>long)all in all this makes a christmas tree 4 m high from top >>deck...-then also some online chat talking about exceptions for subs >>for height above water.??for my litttle 6m boat I was planning to use >>off the shelf lights (2nm) and fit it in the acrylic tube which serves >>as mast and buoy (which i found the inspiration for looking at your >>videos!!), with its own power and IR remote switchbut it is only 1m >>long, not 4...??regardsAntoine??? >>On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 9:47 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >>Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>Hmm. >>?Toplight????????????? 245Anchor Light???? ? 215Sternlight?????????? >>230Strobelight?? abt. 250Portside light????? 215Starboard light.?? 215 >>?1370 Euro?? - 1500? USD??But on a 1-3 seater Psub you can run with >>just One Anchor light and one combination Position ligh red and green >>Together 215 +? 239 = 454 Euro - 500 USD >>???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's >>new lightsDatum: 2016-02-29T21:21:36+0100Von: "John Kammerer via >>Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal >>Submersibles General Discussion" >>???The Lopo lights at rated for 600 >m. >>A full setup for a vessel under 20 m with the special sub Strobe is >>about $2,300.?John K.(203) 414-1000 >>Sent from my iPhone >>On Feb 29, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >>Looked them up, and OUCH. About USD400 each. Carsten wasn't >>kidding.?Best, >>Alec >>On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 1:38 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >>Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>they are called Lopolight. But wait one season for our results after >>diving.. >>?http://www.lopolight.com/?They are very expensive too.. >>????-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's >new >>lightsDatum: 2016-02-29T08:42:49+0100Von: "Brian Cox via >>Personal_Submersibles" An: "PSubs" >>???Carsten,??????? Are those new >>navigation lights something that you guys made??? or adapted from some >>existing lights??Brian Cox >>_______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 10:01:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 08:01:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: <103379270.1731603.1456924037937.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <103379270.1731603.1456924037937.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3aa2df78-3a26-4483-ab34-a2db5c88816d@email.android.com> In my particular embodiment, about 1-1/2". Sean On March 2, 2016 6:07:17 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,How far apart will the o-rings be to give you adequate area to >pull a vacuum against. ?Hank In my particular embo From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 10:11:20 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 16:11:20 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronaut's new lights In-Reply-To: <3aa2df78-3a26-4483-ab34-a2db5c88816d@email.android.com> References: <103379270.1731603.1456924037937.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <3aa2df78-3a26-4483-ab34-a2db5c88816d@email.android.com> Message-ID: thanks Carsten, as for driving, it is good to know: the rules, what is safe to do, and what is easily understood by the rest of the traffic... all of which can be different in my case, unless emergency (then strobe white light), I probably won t be alone, our follow up boat will carry the diving operations lights or towing (if the case) but as you suggest I can easily fit in our mast a LED 360 white and red/green combo from approved manufacturers. the lopo light is bigger than the 80mm ID of our mast but others can fit. regards Antoine On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > In my particular embodiment, about 1-1/2". > > Sean > > > On March 2, 2016 6:07:17 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >Sean,How far apart will the o-rings be to give you adequate area to > >pull a vacuum against. Hank > > In my particular embo > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 11:08:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 16:08:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: <34fcf11c-4740-492a-9ae2-b25b2aa377cc@email.android.com> References: <34fcf11c-4740-492a-9ae2-b25b2aa377cc@email.android.com> Message-ID: <571829807.1886429.1456934913807.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,Good point, in vacuum testing it takes very little vacuum to hold the hatch tight.?Hank On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 6:49 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I should elaborate a bit on transducer construction - the sensing element is essentially just a thin diaphragm that is instrumented with strain gauges (a four gauge Wheatstone bridge). To manufacture a transducer with greater sensitivity (lower range), the diaphragm must be thinner / less stiff, but then it also has less tolerance to pressure before it is damaged. When you buy transducers, the specifications will list their range (over which they can be expected to produce a linear proportional signal), and their exposure limits (maximum tolerable pressure before the sensing element is damaged).Sean On March 2, 2016 6:38:18 AM MST, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: A pressure transducer designed to measure the range of absolute pressures below standard atmospheric pressure.? When you buy pressure transducers, you have three types of available measurements: 1) gauge pressure, where one side of the sensing element is open to the ambient pressure, and the transducer gives you only the pressure above that. E.g. 100 psig is 100 psi over ambient. Your SCUBA regulator maintains an intermediate pressure of 100 - 150 psig, while the absolute pressure changes with depth. 2) absolute pressure, where one side of the sensing element is exposed to a sealed vacuum reference chamber, and the transducer gives you the full pressure reading referenced to zero. 100 psia is 100 psi, period. 3) differential pressure, where there are process connections to both sides of the sensing element, so you get only the difference between them. 100 psid is 100 psi difference between sides, with no regard for what the absolute pressure is.A vacuum transducer would be an example of an absolute pressure transducer, with, for example, a measurement range of 0 psia to 15 psia, which could be expressed as negative gauge pressure, but such transducers are not constructed as gauge transducers because atmospheric pressure varies - zero does not.Sean On March 2, 2016 6:12:47 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,?What is a vacuum transducer? ? On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 5:41 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as! a sealcondition monitor, and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch dogs to provide the initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as long as the vacuum holds, and activates the moment the seal is re! le! ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share anyway.Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 11:32:49 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 16:32:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1935223198.2475883.1456936369409.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker hatch externally with a vacuumpump, but with your twin seal idea you could do this from within the sub without decreasing the hull pressure.? If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between the o-rings can't the transducer bemounted on the 1atm side of the diver lockout hatch & not be exposed to diver lockout pressure?Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal condition monitor, and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch dogs to provide the initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as long as the vacuum holds, and activates the moment the seal is rele! ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share anyway.Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 14:35:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 12:35:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: <1935223198.2475883.1456936369409.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1935223198.2475883.1456936369409.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, but rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges will see the lockout pressure in normal operation. I can get away with a larger range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose measurement resolution. Sean On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker >hatch externally with a vacuumpump, but with your twin seal idea you >could do this from within the sub without decreasing the hull >pressure.? If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between >the o-rings can't the transducer bemounted on the 1atm side of the >diver lockout hatch & not be exposed to diver lockout pressure?Alan > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up >with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal >condition monitor, and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in >the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch >dogs to provide the initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two >o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, >outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner >lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are >concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for >positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or >manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each >half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This >intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the >sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through >appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this >intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump >allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured >by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as >long as the vacuum holds, and activates the moment the seal is rele! >ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to >indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a >potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout >hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive >transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating >the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - >I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share >anyway.Sean > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 15:19:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 20:19:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: References: <1935223198.2475883.1456936369409.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1951032183.2566203.1456949994232.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just attach itto the pipe from the compressor that would run through the wall to the variouscompartments & sealing flanges. There are of course other complications withreleasing the vacuum pressure on the individual hatches.Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, but rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges will see the lockout pressure in normal operation.? I can get away with a larger range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose measurement resolution.Sean On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker hatch externally with a vacuumpump, but with your twin seal idea you could do this from within the sub without decreasing the hull pressure.? If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between the o-rings can't the transducer bem! ountedon the 1atm side of the diver lockout hatch & not be exposed to diver lockout pressure?Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal condition monitor, and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch dogs to p! rovidethe initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as long as the vacuum holds, a! ndactivates the moment the seal is rele! ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share anyway.Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 16:53:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 14:53:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: <1951032183.2566203.1456949994232.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1935223198.2475883.1456936369409.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1951032183.2566203.1456949994232.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <616a4c19-8f6a-4ece-90f0-5537668ba65f@email.android.com> I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the interlock status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore exposed to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which in the case of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the pressure at full lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to full pressure when the lockout is operated. This means that in order for this conceptual design to work, I must accept a larger range, lesser resolution measurement for those hatches, but it occurs to me now that in every case, I would need to accommodate the maximum anticipated pressure on either side of each hatch, if I expect to be able to track progressive seal leakage without damaging a transducer. Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of 0 - 15 psia transducers. The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or whatever, and I may require higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to effectively measure the range below 1 ata. Sean On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just >attach itto the pipe from the compressor that would run through the >wall to the variouscompartments & sealing flanges. There are of course >other complications withreleasing the vacuum pressure on the individual >hatches.Alan > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:35 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, but >rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges will >see the lockout pressure in normal operation.? I can get away with a >larger range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose >measurement resolution.Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Sean,that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker >hatch externally with a vacuumpump, but with your twin seal idea you >could do this from within the sub without decreasing the hull >pressure.? If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between >the o-rings can't the transducer bem! ountedon the 1atm side of the >diver lockout hatch & not be exposed to diver lockout pressure?Alan > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up >with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal >condition monitor, and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in >the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch >dogs to p! rovidethe initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two >o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, >outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner >lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are >concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for >positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or >manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each >half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This >intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the >sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through >appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this >intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump >allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured >by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as >long as the vacuum holds, a! ndactivates the moment the seal is rele! >ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to >indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a >potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout >hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive >transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating >the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - >I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share >anyway.Sean > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 21:28:13 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 02:28:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: <616a4c19-8f6a-4ece-90f0-5537668ba65f@email.android.com> References: <1935223198.2475883.1456936369409.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1951032183.2566203.1456949994232.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <616a4c19-8f6a-4ece-90f0-5537668ba65f@email.android.com> Message-ID: <935775463.2864306.1456972093951.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> You will need to have wires from the transducers running through hull wallsto your monitoring point.??If you had a central pump in the 1 atm compartment?you would need?pipes running through hull walls to each individual hatch wouldn't you?If you had a line coming from your vacuum pump in the 1atm compartment you could have?it running to a 6 port manifold with 6 solenoid valves followed by 6 pressure sensors switching?the solenoid valves, then through the hull walls. This would save you having electrical through?hulls & high pressure sensors. Or have I got it wrong??Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the interlock status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore exposed to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which in the case of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the pressure at full lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to full pressure when the lockout is operated.? This means that in order for this conceptual design to work, I must accept a larger range, lesser resolution measurement for those hatches, but it occurs to me now that in every case, I would need to accommodate the maximum anticipated pressure on either side of each hatch, if I expect to be able to track progressive seal leakage without damaging a transducer. Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of 0 - 15 psia transducers. The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or whatever, and I may require higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to eff! ectivelymeasure the range below 1 ata.Sean On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just attach itto the pipe from the compressor that would run through the wall to the variouscompartments & sealing flanges. There are of course other complications withreleasing the vacuum pressure on the individual hatches.Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, but rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges will see the lockout pressure in normal operation.? I can get away with a larger range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose measurement resolution.Sean On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker hatch externally with a vacuumpump, but with your twin seal idea you could do this from within the sub without decreasing the hull pressure.? If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between the o-! ringscan't the transducer bem! ountedon the 1atm side of the diver lockout hatch & not be exposed to diver lockout pressure?Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal condition monitor, ! and ameans of establishing a preliminary seal in the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch dogs to p! rovidethe initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as long as the va! cuumholds, a! ndactivates the moment the seal is rele! ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share anyway.Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 22:28:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 20:28:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: <935775463.2864306.1456972093951.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1935223198.2475883.1456936369409.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1951032183.2566203.1456949994232.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <616a4c19-8f6a-4ece-90f0-5537668ba65f@email.android.com> <935775463.2864306.1456972093951.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <502f27fb-4b90-43e2-be7f-37d80a8f1f50@email.android.com> Yes. It makes more sense, IMO, to run tubes to the areas of interest, because they're easier to seal through pressure boundaries than cables, and less worry to subject to seawater, external pressure and incidental contact. I'm definitely a fan of minimal, protected and noise immune cable runs. One central vacuum pump serving a manifold with six solenoid valves and tubing run to each hatch flange, and a pressure transducer on each of those lines, centrally located in the (hopefully) dry 1 atm cabin. That doesn't alleviate the need for high pressure sensors though - the piping runs from the lockout compartment are still at lockout compartment pressure when those hatches are open. Sean On March 2, 2016 7:28:13 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >You will need to have wires from the transducers running through hull >wallsto your monitoring point.??If you had a central pump in the 1 atm >compartment?you would need?pipes running through hull walls to each >individual hatch wouldn't you?If you had a line coming from your vacuum >pump in the 1atm compartment you could have?it running to a 6 port >manifold with 6 solenoid valves followed by 6 pressure sensors >switching?the solenoid valves, then through the hull walls. This would >save you having electrical through?hulls & high pressure sensors. Or >have I got it wrong??Cheers Alan > > > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 10:53 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the interlock >status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore >exposed to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which >in the case of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the >pressure at full lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to >full pressure when the lockout is operated.? This means that in order >for this conceptual design to work, I must accept a larger range, >lesser resolution measurement for those hatches, but it occurs to me >now that in every case, I would need to accommodate the maximum >anticipated pressure on either side of each hatch, if I expect to be >able to track progressive seal leakage without damaging a transducer. >Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of 0 - 15 psia transducers. >The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or whatever, and I may require >higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to eff! ectivelymeasure >the range below 1 ata.Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Sean,why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just >attach itto the pipe from the compressor that would run through the >wall to the variouscompartments & sealing flanges. There are of course >other complications withreleasing the vacuum pressure on the individual >hatches.Alan > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:35 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, but >rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges will >see the lockout pressure in normal operation.? I can get away with a >larger range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose >measurement resolution.Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Sean,that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker >hatch externally with a vacuumpump, but with your twin seal idea you >could do this from within the sub without decreasing the hull >pressure.? If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between >the o-! ringscan't the transducer bem! ountedon the 1atm side of the >diver lockout hatch & not be exposed to diver lockout pressure?Alan > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up >with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal >condition monitor, ! and ameans of establishing a preliminary seal in >the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch >dogs to p! rovidethe initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two >o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, >outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner >lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are >concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for >positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or >manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each >half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This >intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the >sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through >appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this >intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump >allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured >by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as >long as the va! cuumholds, a! ndactivates the moment the seal is rele! >ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to >indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a >potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout >hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive >transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating >the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - >I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share >anyway.Sean > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 22:32:45 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 19:32:45 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Message-ID: <20160302193245.38EA6D72@m0087794.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 23:05:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 04:05:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: <20160302193245.38EA6D72@m0087794.ppops.net> References: <20160302193245.38EA6D72@m0087794.ppops.net> Message-ID: <315744066.2733861.1456977954248.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Yes, didn't think of the pressure you get when you open the door.You would need to have a valve to release the vacuum before being ableto open the door, perhaps this valve could be a 3 way valve, letting air in between the o-rings& closing the flow to?the transducer simultaneously. This would stop a low pressure transducer?being destroyed & stop the vacuum pump cutting in as it would maintain a vacuum in the line.Cheers Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Sean,? If you are only vacuuming that 1" or so circle in-between the O rings will the vacuum be enough to hold it??? Seems like you'd have around 280# pounds with a 10 Hg vacuum.?? or you could ?have close to a total vacuum??? 25 Hg? ?? then you could get upwards to 700# +? ,? If the O rings squeezed all the way down you might get metal to metal, then would you still reap the benefit of that area acting as a force??? Seems like there would be very little volume of vacuum. ?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 14:53:19 -0700 I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the interlock status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore exposed to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which in the case of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the pressure at full lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to full pressure when the lockout is operated.? This means that in order for this conceptual design to work, I must accept a larger range, lesser resolution measurement for those hatches, but it occurs to me now that in every case, I would need to accommodate the maximum anticipated pressure on either side of each hatch, if I expect to be able to track progressive seal leakage without damaging a transducer. Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of 0 - 15 psia transducers. The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or whatever, and I may require higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to eff! ectivelymeasure the range below 1 ata.Sean On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just attach itto the pipe from the compressor that would run through the wall to the variouscompartments & sealing flanges. There are of course other complications withreleasing the vacuum pressure on the individual hatches.Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, but rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges will see the lockout pressure in normal operation.? I can get away with a larger range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose measurement resolution.Sean On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker hatch externally with a vacuumpump, but with your twin seal idea you could do this from within the sub without decreasing the hull pressure.? If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between the o-! ringscan't the transducer bem! ountedon the 1atm side of the diver lockout hatch & not be exposed to diver lockout pressure?Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal condition monitor, ! and ameans of establishing a preliminary seal in the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch dogs to p! rovidethe initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as long as the va! cuumholds, a! ndactivates the moment the seal is rele! ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share anyway.Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 23:42:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 21:42:53 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: <20160302193245.38EA6D72@m0087794.ppops.net> References: <20160302193245.38EA6D72@m0087794.ppops.net> Message-ID: <21b49ef7-0dc2-4b82-88c8-29e2ad7aa8e3@email.android.com> There's no requirement for force. Nothing is trying to pull those hatches open, except possibly for if you had a slight cabin overpressure. In service, they would also be dogged. The idea with the vacuum space is just to be able to assess the integrity of the seal immediately following closure of a hatch, and to continuously monitor and use that measurement in conjunction with a limit switch on dog position as a hatch interlock signal (preventing descent or certain pressurization actions in the absence of a confirmed seal). I would probably try to implement some sort of mechanical arrangement such that cranking the dogs open automatically vents that space, so you don't have to think about extra actions when trying to get a hatch open in a hurry. As the vessel descends, the increased pressure will increase squeeze on the o-rings until you get metal-to-metal for sure - the intermediate space would have to be slightly recessed or otherwise designed to maintain a path to the vacuum source channel, and would not constitute part of the metal bearing surface in that case. In any event, the vacuum is not intended to hold a hatch against pressure. All hatches will seal with pressure as per normal practice, which is why the lockout chamber has double hatches top and bottom - in addition to being blown down from atmospheric pressure to lockout depth pressure, the lockout compartment may also serve as a decompression chamber while the vessel surfaces, so at any time the pressure in the lockout compartment could be either higher or lower than the surrounding sea pressure. The double hatches are necessary to ensure that there is always one which seals with pressure. Sean On March 2, 2016 8:32:45 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean, If you are only vacuuming that 1" or so circle in-between the O >rings will the vacuum be enough to hold it? Seems like you'd have >around 280# pounds with a 10 Hg vacuum. or you could have close to a >total vacuum? 25 Hg ? then you could get upwards to 700# + , If >the O rings squeezed all the way down you might get metal to metal, >then would you still reap the benefit of that area acting as a force? >Seems like there would be very little volume of vacuum. > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 14:53:19 -0700 > >I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the interlock >status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore >exposed to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which >in the case of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the >pressure at full lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to >full pressure when the lockout is operated. This means that in order >for this conceptual design to work, I must accept a larger range, >lesser resolution measurement for those hatches, but it occurs to me >now that in every case, I would need to accommodate the maximum >anticipated pressure on either side of each hatch, if I expect to be >able to track progressive seal leakage without damaging a transducer. >Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of 0 - 15 psia transducers. >The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or whatever, and I may require >higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to eff! ectively >measure the range below 1 ata. > >Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Sean, > >why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just attach it > >to the pipe from the compressor that would run through the wall to the >various > >compartments & sealing flanges. There are of course other complications >with > >releasing the vacuum pressure on the individual hatches. > >Alan > > > > >_____________________________________________ >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:35 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > > >It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, but >rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges will >see the lockout pressure in normal operation. I can get away with a >larger range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose >measurement resolution. > >Sean > > > >On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Sean, > >that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker hatch >externally with a vacuum > >pump, but with your twin seal idea you could do this from within the >sub without decreasing the hull pressure. > >If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between the o-! rings >can't the transducer be > >m! ounted on the 1atm side of the diver lockout hatch & not be exposed >to diver lockout pressure? > >Alan > > > > >_____________________________________________ >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > >Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > > >Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up >with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal >condition monitor, ! and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in >the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch >dogs to p! rovide the initial o-ring squeeze. > >My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin >loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading >/ escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). >These o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half >dovetail groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is >opened or manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face >of each half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two >rings. This intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected >(on the sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through >appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this >intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump >allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured >by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as >long as the va! cuum holds, a! nd activates the moment the seal is >rele! ased, instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch >to indicate that it is open. > >Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with exposing >those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, >necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand >the pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the >pressure approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out >in my head, but I thought I would share anyway. > >Sean > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_____________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_____________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 2 23:51:13 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 21:51:13 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: <315744066.2733861.1456977954248.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20160302193245.38EA6D72@m0087794.ppops.net> <315744066.2733861.1456977954248.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That's a smart idea. I would also tie that valve actuation mechanically into the actuation mechanism for the hatch dogs, so it remains intuitive and doesn't require a second action. Sean On March 2, 2016 9:05:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Yes, didn't think of the pressure you get when you open the door.You >would need to have a valve to release the vacuum before being ableto >open the door, perhaps this valve could be a 3 way valve, letting air >in between the o-rings& closing the flow to?the transducer >simultaneously. This would stop a low pressure transducer?being >destroyed & stop the vacuum pump cutting in as it would maintain a >vacuum in the line.Cheers Alan >From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:32 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >Sean,? If you are only vacuuming that 1" or so circle in-between the O >rings will the vacuum be enough to hold it??? Seems like you'd have >around 280# pounds with a 10 Hg vacuum.?? or you could ?have close to a >total vacuum??? 25 Hg? ?? then you could get upwards to 700# +? ,? If >the O rings squeezed all the way down you might get metal to metal, >then would you still reap the benefit of that area acting as a force??? >Seems like there would be very little volume of vacuum. ?Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 14:53:19 -0700 > >I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the interlock >status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore >exposed to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which >in the case of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the >pressure at full lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to >full pressure when the lockout is operated.? This means that in order >for this conceptual design to work, I must accept a larger range, >lesser resolution measurement for those hatches, but it occurs to me >now that in every case, I would need to accommodate the maximum >anticipated pressure on either side of each hatch, if I expect to be >able to track progressive seal leakage without damaging a transducer. >Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of 0 - 15 psia transducers. >The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or whatever, and I may require >higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to eff! ectivelymeasure >the range below 1 ata.Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Sean,why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just >attach itto the pipe from the compressor that would run through the >wall to the variouscompartments & sealing flanges. There are of course >other complications withreleasing the vacuum pressure on the individual >hatches.Alan > > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:35 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, but >rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges will >see the lockout pressure in normal operation.? I can get away with a >larger range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose >measurement resolution.Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Sean,that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker >hatch externally with a vacuumpump, but with your twin seal idea you >could do this from within the sub without decreasing the hull >pressure.? If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between >the o-! ringscan't the transducer bem! ountedon the 1atm side of the >diver lockout hatch & not be exposed to diver lockout pressure?Alan > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up >with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal >condition monitor, ! and ameans of establishing a preliminary seal in >the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch >dogs to p! rovidethe initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two >o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, >outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner >lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are >concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for >positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or >manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each >half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This >intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the >sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through >appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this >intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump >allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured >by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as >long as the va! cuumholds, a! ndactivates the moment the seal is rele! >ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to >indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a >potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout >hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive >transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating >the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - >I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share >anyway.Sean > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles >mailing >listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 3 01:22:11 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 17:22:11 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: References: <20160302193245.38EA6D72@m0087794.ppops.net> <315744066.2733861.1456977954248.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Sean, I really like the idea of vacuum monitoring for hatch leaking - nice one. Also Alan a good idea for a single central transmitter monitoring the whole thing. A couple of thoughts from me: - as well as the vacuum breaker valves on the actual hatches, you'd need individual manual isolation valves in the 1atm chamber so you determine which was leaking, and in case one leaks. - You could protect the transducer from over pressure with a relief valve in the 1atm chamber (installed on the 1atm side of isolation valves) - I'm not sure how likely it really is, but if you got salt water into the vacuum space the water would quickly evaporate, leading the salt residue to accumulate over time - oil lubricated vacuum pumps, or at least the ones I've used, at only moderate vacuum can create smoke/oil vapour which would be uncomfortable in a sub. Using a diaphragm pump or similar you'd probably achieve a much poorer vacuum but no atmospheric contaminants - a vacuum switch would probably be cheaper and more likely to survive the over pressure, at the cost of less detailed info, ie. This one is good to 200m http://www.suco-tech.com/product.php?p=44&c=12 - actually on reflection, I sell digital gauges for SCUBA gas mixing (shameless plug: http://m.ebay.com/itm/Electronic-Digital-Pressure-Gauge-for-SCUBA-Blending-Nitrox-Trimix-Oxygen-/262307605334?nav=SEARCH ) and they are -1 to 400bar(g) in 0.1 bar increments, which would be ok for both the vacuum and over pressure, so it can't be too hard, and requires an ADC resolution of only 12 bits - if 10 levels of vacuum measurement would be ok? - I have some very reasonably priced transducer samples coming from the same supplier - if they work out ok I could send you one or at least the specs. - For a quick and easy way of turning high res analogue signals into useful digital data I can highly recommend this Arduino shield: http://rascalmicro.com/docs-precision-voltage-shield/ Brandon has made a couple of 18-bit versions for me, which are good enough for 0.1% readings from oxygen cells and the like. I've been meaning to order some more. Well that turned into a bit of a ramble, hopefully some is useful. Cheers, Steve On 3 Mar 2016 3:52 pm, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > That's a smart idea. I would also tie that valve actuation mechanically > into the actuation mechanism for the hatch dogs, so it remains intuitive > and doesn't require a second action. > > Sean > > > On March 2, 2016 9:05:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Yes, didn't think of the pressure you get when you open the door. >> You would need to have a valve to release the vacuum before being able >> to open the door, perhaps this valve could be a 3 way valve, letting air >> in between the o-rings >> & closing the flow to the transducer simultaneously. This would stop a >> low pressure transducer >> being destroyed & stop the vacuu! m pump cutting in as it would maintain >> a vacuum in the line. >> Cheers Alan >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:32 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock >> >> Sean, If you are only vacuuming that 1" or so circle in-between the O >> rings will the vacuum be enough to hold it? Seems like you'd have around >> 280# pounds with a 10 Hg vacuum. or you could have close to a total >> vacuum? 25 Hg ? then you could get upwards to 700# + , If the O rings >> squeezed all the way down you might get metal to metal, then would y! ou >> still reap the benefit of that area acting as a force? Seems like there >> would be very little volume of vacuum. >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock >> Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 14:53:19 -0700 >> >> I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the interlock >> status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore exposed >> to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which in the case >> of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the pressure at full >> lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to full pressur! e when >> the lockout is operated. This means that in order for this conceptual >> design to work, I must accept a larger range, lesser resolution measurement >> for those hatches, but it occurs to me now that in every case, I would need >> to accommodate the maximum anticipated pressure on either side of each >> hatch, if I expect to be able to track progressive seal leakage without >> damaging a transducer. Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of 0 - 15 >> psia transducers. The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or whatever, and I >> may require higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to eff! >> ectively measure the range below 1 ata. >> Sean >> >> >> On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just attach it >> to the pipe from the compressor that would run through the wall to the >> various >> compartments & sealing flanges. There are of course other complications >> with >> releasing the vacuum pressure on the individual hatches. >> Alan >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:35 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock >> >> It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, but >> rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges will! >> see the lockout pressure in normal operation. I can get away with a larger >> range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose measurement >> resolution. >> Sean >> >> >> On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker hatch >> externally with a vacuum >> pump, but with your twin seal idea you could do this from within the sub >> without decreasing the hull pressure. >> If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between the o-! rings >> can't the transducer be >> m! ounted on the 1atm side of the diver lockout hatch & not be exposed to >> diver lockout pressure? >> Alan >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock >> >> Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up >> with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal >> condition monitor, ! and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in the >> absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch dogs to p! >> rovide the initial o-ring squeeze. >> My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin >> loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / >> escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These >> o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail >> groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or >> manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each half >> dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This >> intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the sealing >> flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through appropriate valving >> to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this intermediate space is >> pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump allows), then locked off, and the >> strength of this vacuum is measured by the transducer and continuously >> monitored. The interlock is clear as long as the va! cuum holds, a! nd >> activates the moment the seal is rele! ased, instead of relying on some >> arbitrary movement of the hatch to indicate that it is open. >> Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with exposing >> those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, >> necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand the >> pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the pressure >> approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out in my head, >> but I thought I would share anyway. >> Sean >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 3 01:56:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 06:56:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: References: <20160302193245.38EA6D72@m0087794.ppops.net> <315744066.2733861.1456977954248.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <156533987.2816392.1456988191094.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Wow some good products Steve,I had a look at your Ebay product inventory?http://www.ebay.com/sch/tfmengineeringaust/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=I can see you will be a great source of knowledge for tracking down those tricky bits & pieces.?? ?If Sean puts an LED between the pressure sensor & the solenoid valve or between the solenoid valve& it's power source, he will be able to see which set of o-rings is not sealing. And if he was Cliff he wouldbe feeding the information to his PLC & displaying it on his HMI.Cheers Alan From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Hi Sean, I really like the idea of vacuum monitoring for hatch leaking - nice one. Also Alan a good idea for a single central transmitter monitoring the whole thing.A couple of thoughts from me: - as well as the vacuum breaker valves on the actual hatches, you'd need individual manual isolation valves in the 1atm chamber so you determine which was leaking, and in case one leaks. - You could protect the transducer from over pressure with a relief valve in the 1atm chamber (installed on the 1atm side of isolation valves) - I'm not sure how likely it really is, but if you got salt water into the vacuum space the water would quickly evaporate, leading the salt residue to accumulate over time - oil lubricated vacuum pumps, or at least the ones I've used, at only moderate vacuum can create smoke/oil vapour which would be uncomfortable in a sub. Using a diaphragm pump or similar you'd probably achieve a much poorer vacuum but no atmospheric contaminants - a vacuum switch would probably be cheaper and more likely to survive the over pressure, at the cost of less detailed info, ie. This one is good to 200m http://www.suco-tech.com/product.php?p=44&c=12 - actually on reflection, I sell digital gauges for SCUBA gas mixing (shameless plug: http://m.ebay.com/itm/Electronic-Digital-Pressure-Gauge-for-SCUBA-Blending-Nitrox-Trimix-Oxygen-/262307605334?nav=SEARCH ) and they are -1 to 400bar(g) in 0.1 bar increments, which would be ok for both the vacuum and over pressure, so it can't be too hard, and requires an ADC resolution of only 12 bits - if 10 levels of vacuum measurement would be ok? - I have some very reasonably priced transducer samples coming from the same supplier - if they work out ok I could send you one or at least the specs. - For a quick and easy way of turning high res analogue signals into useful digital data I can highly recommend this Arduino shield: http://rascalmicro.com/docs-precision-voltage-shield/ Brandon has made a couple of 18-bit versions for me, which are good enough for 0.1% readings from oxygen cells and the like. I've been meaning to order some more.Well that turned into a bit of a ramble, hopefully some is useful.Cheers, SteveOn 3 Mar 2016 3:52 pm, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: That's a smart idea. I would also tie that valve actuation mechanically into the actuation mechanism for the hatch dogs, so it remains intuitive and doesn't require a second action.Sean On March 2, 2016 9:05:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, didn't think of the pressure you get when you open the door.You would need to have a valve to release the vacuum before being ableto open the door, perhaps this valve could be a 3 way valve, letting air in between the o-rings& closing the flow to?the transducer simultaneously. This would stop a low pressure transducer?being destroyed & stop the vacuu! m pumpcutting in as it would maintain a vacuum in the line.Cheers Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Sean,? If you are only vacuuming that 1" or so circle in-between the O rings will the vacuum be enough to hold it??? Seems like you'd have around 280# pounds with a 10 Hg vacuum.?? or you could ?have close to a total vacuum??? 25 Hg? ?? then you could get upwards to 700# +? ,? If the O rings squeezed all the way down you might get metal to metal, then would y! ou stillreap the benefit of that area acting as a force??? Seems like there would be very little volume of vacuum. ?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 14:53:19 -0700 I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the interlock status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore exposed to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which in the case of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the pressure at full lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to full pressur! e whenthe lockout is operated.? This means that in order for this conceptual design to work, I must accept a larger range, lesser resolution measurement for those hatches, but it occurs to me now that in every case, I would need to accommodate the maximum anticipated pressure on either side of each hatch, if I expect to be able to track progressive seal leakage without damaging a transducer. Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of 0 - 15 psia transducers. The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or whatever, and I may require higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to eff! ectivelymeasure the range below 1 ata.Sean On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just attach itto the pipe from the compressor that would run through the wall to the variouscompartments & sealing flanges. There are of course other complications withreleasing the vacuum pressure on the individual hatches.Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, but rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges will! see thelockout pressure in normal operation.? I can get away with a larger range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose measurement resolution.Sean On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker hatch externally with a vacuumpump, but with your twin seal idea you could do this from within the sub without decreasing the hull pressure.? If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between the o-! ringscan't the transducer bem! ountedon the 1atm side of the diver lockout hatch & not be exposed to diver lockout pressure?Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal condition monitor, ! and ameans of establishing a preliminary seal in the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch dogs to p! rovidethe initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as long as the va! cuumholds, a! ndactivates the moment the seal is rele! ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share anyway.Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 3 02:13:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 18:13:35 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: <156533987.2816392.1456988191094.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20160302193245.38EA6D72@m0087794.ppops.net> <315744066.2733861.1456977954248.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <156533987.2816392.1456988191094.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Cheers Alan! Yes anything oxygen related I am building a pretty good range if I do say so myself, and the HP air fittings are coming along too. The LED is a good idea for an easy visual indication. On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Wow some good products Steve, > I had a look at your Ebay product inventory > http://www.ebay.com/sch/tfmengineeringaust/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= > I can see you will be a great source of knowledge for tracking down those > tricky bits & pieces. > If Sean puts an LED between the pressure sensor & the solenoid valve or > between the solenoid valve > & it's power source, he will be able to see which set of o-rings is not > sealing. And if he was Cliff he would > be feeding the information to his PLC & displaying it on his HMI. > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2016 7:22 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > > Hi Sean, > I really like the idea of vacuum monitoring for hatch leaking - nice one. > Also Alan a good idea for a single central transmitter monitoring the whole > thing. > A couple of thoughts from me: > - as well as the vacuum breaker valves on the actual hatches, you'd need > individual manual isolation valves in the 1atm chamber so you determine > which was leaking, and in case one leaks. > - You could protect the transducer from over pressure with a relief valve > in the 1atm chamber (installed on the 1atm side of isolation valves) > - I'm not sure how likely it really is, but if you got salt water into the > vacuum space the water would quickly evaporate, leading the salt residue to > accumulate over time > - oil lubricated vacuum pumps, or at least the ones I've used, at only > moderate vacuum can create smoke/oil vapour which would be uncomfortable in > a sub. Using a diaphragm pump or similar you'd probably achieve a much > poorer vacuum but no atmospheric contaminants > - a vacuum switch would probably be cheaper and more likely to survive the > over pressure, at the cost of less detailed info, ie. This one is good to > 200m > http://www.suco-tech.com/product.php?p=44&c=12 > - actually on reflection, I sell digital gauges for SCUBA gas mixing > (shameless plug: > http://m.ebay.com/itm/Electronic-Digital-Pressure-Gauge-for-SCUBA-Blending-Nitrox-Trimix-Oxygen-/262307605334?nav=SEARCH > ) and they are -1 to 400bar(g) in 0.1 bar increments, which would be ok for > both the vacuum and over pressure, so it can't be too hard, and requires an > ADC resolution of only 12 bits - if 10 levels of vacuum measurement would > be ok? > - I have some very reasonably priced transducer samples coming from the > same supplier - if they work out ok I could send you one or at least the > specs. > - For a quick and easy way of turning high res analogue signals into > useful digital data I can highly recommend this Arduino shield: > http://rascalmicro.com/docs-precision-voltage-shield/ > Brandon has made a couple of 18-bit versions for me, which are good enough > for 0.1% readings from oxygen cells and the like. I've been meaning to > order some more. > Well that turned into a bit of a ramble, hopefully some is useful. > Cheers, > Steve > On 3 Mar 2016 3:52 pm, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > That's a smart idea. I would also tie that valve actuation mechanically > into the actuation mechanism for the hatch dogs, so it remains intuitive > and doesn't require a second action. > Sean > > > On March 2, 2016 9:05:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Yes, didn't think of the pressure you get when you open the door. > You would need to have a valve to release the vacuum before being able > to open the door, perhaps this valve could be a 3 way valve, letting air > in between the o-rings > & closing the flow to the transducer simultaneously. This would stop a > low pressure transducer > being destroyed & stop the vacuu! m pump cutting in as it would maintain a > vacuum in the line. > Cheers Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:32 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > > Sean, If you are only vacuuming that 1" or so circle in-between the O > rings will the vacuum be enough to hold it? Seems like you'd have around > 280# pounds with a 10 Hg vacuum. or you could have close to a total > vacuum? 25 Hg ? then you could get upwards to 700# + , If the O rings > squeezed all the way down you might get metal to metal, then would y! ou > still reap the benefit of that area acting as a force? Seems like there > would be very little volume of vacuum. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 14:53:19 -0700 > > I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the interlock > status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore exposed > to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which in the case > of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the pressure at full > lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to full pressur! e when > the lockout is operated. This means that in order for this conceptual > design to work, I must accept a larger range, lesser resolution measurement > for those hatches, but it occurs to me now that in every case, I would need > to accommodate the maximum anticipated pressure on either side of each > hatch, if I expect to be able to track progressive seal leakage without > damaging a transducer. Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of 0 - 15 > psia transducers. The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or whatever, and I > may require higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to eff! > ectively measure the range below 1 ata. > Sean > > > On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just attach it > to the pipe from the compressor that would run through the wall to the > various > compartments & sealing flanges. There are of course other complications > with > releasing the vacuum pressure on the individual hatches. > Alan > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:35 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > > It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, but > rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges will! > see the lockout pressure in normal operation. I can get away with a larger > range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose measurement > resolution. > Sean > > > On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker hatch > externally with a vacuum > pump, but with your twin seal idea you could do this from within the sub > without decreasing the hull pressure. > If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between the o-! rings > can't the transducer be > m! ounted on the 1atm side of the diver lockout hatch & not be exposed to > diver lockout pressure? > Alan > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > > Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up > with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal > condition monitor, ! and a means of establishing a preliminary seal in the > absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch dogs to p! > rovide the initial o-ring squeeze. > My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin > loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / > escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These > o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail > groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or > manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each half > dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This > intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the sealing > flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through appropriate valving > to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this intermediate space is > pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump allows), then locked off, and the > strength of this vacuum is measured by the transducer and continuously > monitored. The interlock is clear as long as the va! cuum holds, a! nd > activates the moment the seal is rele! ased, instead of relying on some > arbitrary movement of the hatch to indicate that it is open. > Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with exposing > those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, > necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand the > pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the pressure > approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out in my head, > but I thought I would share anyway. > Sean > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 3 07:31:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2016 05:31:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: <156533987.2816392.1456988191094.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20160302193245.38EA6D72@m0087794.ppops.net> <315744066.2733861.1456977954248.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <156533987.2816392.1456988191094.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually, I'll be using a PAC - a slightly more powerful version of a PLC, in the form of a National Instruments CompactRIO controller, running an embedded HMI on touchscreen hardware very similar to Cliff's implementation. I want as much as possible for the only manual controls and indicators to be those required by the rules as manual overrides, and of course the isolation valves at the through hulls. Everything else should run automatically or "fly-by-wire" during normal operation. Fortuitously, one of my projects at work in 2014 was the development of a smooth, high accuracy pressure ramp and control system for automatic pressurization and depressurization to 60,000 psi, both hardware and software development, so I know how to do this. Sean On March 2, 2016 11:56:31 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Wow some good products Steve,I had a look at your Ebay product >inventory?http://www.ebay.com/sch/tfmengineeringaust/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=I >can see you will be a great source of knowledge for tracking down those >tricky bits & pieces.?? ?If Sean puts an LED between the pressure >sensor & the solenoid valve or between the solenoid valve& it's power >source, he will be able to see which set of o-rings is not sealing. And >if he was Cliff he wouldbe feeding the information to his PLC & >displaying it on his HMI.Cheers Alan > >From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 7:22 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >Hi Sean, >I really like the idea of vacuum monitoring for hatch leaking - nice >one. Also Alan a good idea for a single central transmitter monitoring >the whole thing.A couple of thoughts from me: >- as well as the vacuum breaker valves on the actual hatches, you'd >need individual manual isolation valves in the 1atm chamber so you >determine which was leaking, and in case one leaks. >- You could protect the transducer from over pressure with a relief >valve in the 1atm chamber (installed on the 1atm side of isolation >valves) >- I'm not sure how likely it really is, but if you got salt water into >the vacuum space the water would quickly evaporate, leading the salt >residue to accumulate over time >- oil lubricated vacuum pumps, or at least the ones I've used, at only >moderate vacuum can create smoke/oil vapour which would be >uncomfortable in a sub. Using a diaphragm pump or similar you'd >probably achieve a much poorer vacuum but no atmospheric contaminants >- a vacuum switch would probably be cheaper and more likely to survive >the over pressure, at the cost of less detailed info, ie. This one is >good to 200m >http://www.suco-tech.com/product.php?p=44&c=12 >- actually on reflection, I sell digital gauges for SCUBA gas mixing >(shameless plug: >http://m.ebay.com/itm/Electronic-Digital-Pressure-Gauge-for-SCUBA-Blending-Nitrox-Trimix-Oxygen-/262307605334?nav=SEARCH >) and they are -1 to 400bar(g) in 0.1 bar increments, which would be ok >for both the vacuum and over pressure, so it can't be too hard, and >requires an ADC resolution of only 12 bits - if 10 levels of vacuum >measurement would be ok? >- I have some very reasonably priced transducer samples coming from the >same supplier - if they work out ok I could send you one or at least >the specs. >- For a quick and easy way of turning high res analogue signals into >useful digital data I can highly recommend this Arduino shield: >http://rascalmicro.com/docs-precision-voltage-shield/ >Brandon has made a couple of 18-bit versions for me, which are good >enough for 0.1% readings from oxygen cells and the like. I've been >meaning to order some more.Well that turned into a bit of a ramble, >hopefully some is useful.Cheers, >SteveOn 3 Mar 2016 3:52 pm, "Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > >That's a smart idea. I would also tie that valve actuation mechanically >into the actuation mechanism for the hatch dogs, so it remains >intuitive and doesn't require a second action.Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 9:05:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Yes, didn't think of the pressure you get when you open the door.You >would need to have a valve to release the vacuum before being ableto >open the door, perhaps this valve could be a 3 way valve, letting air >in between the o-rings& closing the flow to?the transducer >simultaneously. This would stop a low pressure transducer?being >destroyed & stop the vacuu! m pumpcutting in as it would maintain a >vacuum in the line.Cheers Alan >From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:32 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >Sean,? If you are only vacuuming that 1" or so circle in-between the O >rings will the vacuum be enough to hold it??? Seems like you'd have >around 280# pounds with a 10 Hg vacuum.?? or you could ?have close to a >total vacuum??? 25 Hg? ?? then you could get upwards to 700# +? ,? If >the O rings squeezed all the way down you might get metal to metal, >then would y! ou stillreap the benefit of that area acting as a >force??? Seems like there would be very little volume of vacuum. ?Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 14:53:19 -0700 > >I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the interlock >status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore >exposed to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which >in the case of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the >pressure at full lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to >full pressur! e whenthe lockout is operated.? This means that in order >for this conceptual design to work, I must accept a larger range, >lesser resolution measurement for those hatches, but it occurs to me >now that in every case, I would need to accommodate the maximum >anticipated pressure on either side of each hatch, if I expect to be >able to track progressive seal leakage without damaging a transducer. >Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of 0 - 15 psia transducers. >The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or whatever, and I may require >higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to eff! ectivelymeasure >the range below 1 ata.Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Sean,why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just >attach itto the pipe from the compressor that would run through the >wall to the variouscompartments & sealing flanges. There are of course >other complications withreleasing the vacuum pressure on the individual >hatches.Alan > > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:35 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, but >rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges >will! see thelockout pressure in normal operation.? I can get away with >a larger range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose >measurement resolution.Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Sean,that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker >hatch externally with a vacuumpump, but with your twin seal idea you >could do this from within the sub without decreasing the hull >pressure.? If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between >the o-! ringscan't the transducer bem! ountedon the 1atm side of the >diver lockout hatch & not be exposed to diver lockout pressure?Alan > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came up >with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a seal >condition monitor, ! and ameans of establishing a preliminary seal in >the absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch >dogs to p! rovidethe initial o-ring squeeze.My design entails two >o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: cabin loading / escape, >outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout loading / escape, inner >lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). These o-rings are >concentric face seals, each residing within a half dovetail groove for >positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is opened or >manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of each >half dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This >intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the >sealing flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through >appropriate valving to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this >intermediate space is pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump >allows), then locked off, and the strength of this vacuum is measured >by the transducer and continuously monitored. The interlock is clear as >long as the va! cuumholds, a! ndactivates the moment the seal is rele! >ased,instead of relying on some arbitrary movement of the hatch to >indicate that it is open.Apart from the obvious expense, I see a >potential problem with exposing those vacuum transducers in the lockout >hatches to high pressure, necessitating either a less sensitive >transducer that will withstand the pressure, or some means of isolating >the transducer when the pressure approaches the limit of its range - >I'm still working this out in my head, but I thought I would share >anyway.Sean > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles >mailing >listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 3 08:32:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 13:32:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2147201057.2246219.1457011942750.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,Since the goal here is to?monitor o-ring condition. ?How about a central pump with a manifold with a vent valve and gauge piped to your dash. ?In the name of keeping it simple, there is no need for anything electronic. Steve has the gauge that can handle the pressure boundaries. Your set up does not need to indicate witch o-ring is in trouble because your going to abort regardless of witch one it is. ?A visual inspection at the surface will locate the problem. ?Hank On Thursday, March 3, 2016 5:32 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Actually, I'll be using a PAC - a slightly more powerful version of a PLC, in the form of a National Instruments CompactRIO controller, running an embedded HMI on touchscreen hardware very similar to Cliff's implementation. I want as much as possible for the only manual controls and indicators to be those required by the rules as manual overrides, and of course the isolation valves at the through hulls. Everything else should run automatically or "fly-by-wire" during normal operation. Fortuitously, one of my projects at work in 2014 was the development of a smooth, high accuracy pressure ramp and control system for automatic pressurization and depressurization to 60,000 psi, both hardware and software development, so I know how to do this.Sean On March 2, 2016 11:56:31 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Wow some good products Steve,I had a look at your Ebay product inventory?http://www.ebay.com/sch/tfmengineeringaust/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=I can see you will be a great source of knowledge for tracking down those tricky bits & pieces.?? ?If Sean puts an LED between the pressure sensor & the solenoid valve or between the solenoid valve & it's power source, he will be able to see which set of o-rings is not sealing. And if he was Cliff he wouldbe feeding the information to his PLC & displaying it on his HMI.Cheers Alan From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Hi Sean, I really like the idea of vacuum monitoring for hatch leaking - nice one. Also Alan a good idea for a single central transmitter monitoring the whole thing.A couple of thoughts from me: - as well as the vacuum breaker valves on the actual hatches, you'd need individual manual isolation valves in the 1atm chamber so you determine which was leaking, and in case one leaks. - You could protect the transducer from over pressure with a relief valve in the 1atm chamber (installed on the 1atm side of isolation valves) - I'm not sure how likely it really is, but if you got salt water into the vacuum space the water would quickly evaporate, leading the salt residue to accumulate over time - oil lubricated vacuum pumps, or at least the ones I've used, at only moderate vacuum can create smoke/oil vapour which would be uncomfortable in a sub. Using a diaphragm pump or similar you'd probably achieve a much poorer vacuum but no atmospheric contaminants - a vacuum switch would probably be cheaper and more likely to survive the over pressure, at the cost of less detailed info, ie. This one is good to 200m http://www.suco-tech.com/product.php?p=44&c=12 - actually on reflection, I sell digital gauges for SCUBA gas mixing (shameless plug: http://m.ebay.com/itm/Electronic-Digital-Pressure-Gauge-for-SCUBA-Blending-Nitrox-Trimix-Oxygen-/262307605334?nav=SEARCH ) and they are -1 to 400bar(g) in 0.1 bar increments, which would be ok for both the vacuum and over pressure, so it can't be too hard, and requires an ADC resolution of only 12 bits - if 10 levels of vacuum measurement would be ok? - I have some very reasonably priced transducer samples coming from the same supplier - if they work out ok I could send you one or at least the specs. - For a quick and easy way of turning high res analogue signals into useful digital data I can highly recommend this Arduino shield: http://rascalmicro.com/docs-precision-voltage-shield/ Brandon has made a couple of 18-bit versions for me, which are good enough for 0.1% readings from oxygen cells and the like. I've been meaning to order some more.Well that turned into a bit of a ramble, hopefully some is useful.Cheers, SteveOn 3 Mar 2016 3:52 pm, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: That's a smart idea. I would also tie that valve actuation mechanically into the actuation mechanism for the hatch dogs, so it remains intuitive and doesn't require a second action.Sean On March 2, 2016 9:05:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, didn't think of the pressure you get when you open the door.You would need to have a valve to release the vacuum before being ableto open the door, perhaps this valve could be a 3 way valve, letting air in between the o-rings& closing the flow to?the transducer simultaneously. This would stop a low pressure transducer?being destroyed & stop the vacuu! m pumpcutting in as it would maintain a vacuum in the line.Cheers Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Sean,? If you are only vacuuming that 1" or so circle in-between the O rings will the vacuum be enough to hold it??? Seems like you'd have around 280# pounds with a 10 Hg vacuum.?? or you could ?have close to a total vacuum??? 25 Hg? ?? then you could get upwards to 700# +? ,? If the O rings squeezed all the way down you might get metal to metal, then would y! ou stillreap the benefit of that area acting as a force??? Seems like there would be very little volume of vacuum. ?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock Date: W! ed, 02Mar 2016 14:53:19 -0700 I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the interlock status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore exposed to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which in the case of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the pressure at full lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to full pressur! e whenthe lockout is operated.? This means that in order for this conceptual design to work, I must accept a larger range, lesser resolution measurement for those hatches, but it occurs to me now that in every case, I would need to accommodate the maximum anticipated pressure on either side of each hatch, if I expect to be able to track progressive seal leakage without damaging a transducer. Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of 0 - 15 psia transducers. The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or whatever, and I may require higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to eff! ectivelymeasure the range below 1 ata.Sean On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just attach itto the pipe from the compressor that would run through the wall to the variouscompartments & sealing flanges. There are of course other complications withreleasing the vacuum pressure on the individual hatches.Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 3 08:36:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2016 06:36:14 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: References: <20160302193245.38EA6D72@m0087794.ppops.net> <315744066.2733861.1456977954248.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6481764c-969d-4120-93e9-d4da390cea44@email.android.com> On March 2, 2016 11:22:11 PM MST, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean, >I really like the idea of vacuum monitoring for hatch leaking - nice >one. >Also Alan a good idea for a single central transmitter monitoring the >whole >thing. This defeats the purpose of the system, other than to provide a global "go or no go" interlock signal. >A couple of thoughts from me: >- as well as the vacuum breaker valves on the actual hatches, you'd >need >individual manual isolation valves in the 1atm chamber so you determine >which was leaking, and in case one leaks. My idea was to use one solenoid valve per channel to connect or isolate each hatch from the vacuum pump, and one transducer per channel, so that information is immediately available. >- You could protect the transducer from over pressure with a relief >valve >in the 1atm chamber (installed on the 1atm side of isolation valves) Any such relief valve would continue to vent into the 1 ata space until it wasn't 1 ata anymore. Pressure leaking past an o-ring will continue to do so until the differential is equalized. I really think full-range transducers are the way to go here. Convolution has a particular penalty in vacuum systems that you don't encounter in positive pressure gas systems, in that you can't easily diagnose and localize leaks by snooping for them, since they leak to the inside. The other advantage of the full-range transducer is that it enables you to automatically determine which of the two seals has failed, since the vacuum space will (eventually) rise to the pressure of the failed side. Such an event is only a remote possibility though. Keep in mind that an o-ring which seals initially is highly unlikely to subsequently develop a leak in service. What you're really trying to catch with this system is when you get a pinched or damaged o-ring, or a hair or other debris under the seal, where a pinhole leak path exists that isn't immediately obvious, but won't permit the vacuum to hold. >- I'm not sure how likely it really is, but if you got salt water into >the >vacuum space the water would quickly evaporate, leading the salt >residue to >accumulate over time This is true. The vacuum pump itself has a water trap, but the piping would need to be flushed as a matter of routine maintenance, and the hatch flanges wiped clean if salt buildup became an issue. >- oil lubricated vacuum pumps, or at least the ones I've used, at only >moderate vacuum can create smoke/oil vapour which would be >uncomfortable in >a sub. Using a diaphragm pump or similar you'd probably achieve a much >poorer vacuum but no atmospheric contaminants CO2 isn't the only thing you can scrub out of the air. In addition to a caustic scrubber, permanganate or activated carbon filters can remove hydrocarbons and other contaminants, and I will be including such a scrubber stage in the air processing. That said, it is definitely still wise to eliminate any known sources of contamination, so further research into vacuum pumps looks to be in order. >- a vacuum switch would probably be cheaper and more likely to survive >the >over pressure, at the cost of less detailed info, ie. This one is good >to >200m >http://www.suco-tech.com/product.php?p=44&c=12 Also true. The fundamental difference being that the vacuum switch is just an on-off indicator, while a pressure transducer can provide the leak rate. Maybe that isn't necessary. I'll have to think about this further. >- actually on reflection, I sell digital gauges for SCUBA gas mixing >(shameless plug: >http://m.ebay.com/itm/Electronic-Digital-Pressure-Gauge-for-SCUBA-Blending-Nitrox-Trimix-Oxygen-/262307605334?nav=SEARCH >) and they are -1 to 400bar(g) in 0.1 bar increments, which would be ok >for >both the vacuum and over pressure, so it can't be too hard, and >requires an >ADC resolution of only 12 bits - if 10 levels of vacuum measurement >would >be ok? >- I have some very reasonably priced transducer samples coming from the >same supplier - if they work out ok I could send you one or at least >the >specs. I don't require a local display, as I'm custom-building the HMI. Separating the transducer from its signal conditioning also allows me to vary the resolution (and expense) of the ADC according to the application. I also will only employ transducers with NIST-traceable calibrations, that can be readily recalibrated annually, for example. >- For a quick and easy way of turning high res analogue signals into >useful >digital data I can highly recommend this Arduino shield: >http://rascalmicro.com/docs-precision-voltage-shield/ >Brandon has made a couple of 18-bit versions for me, which are good >enough >for 0.1% readings from oxygen cells and the like. I've been meaning to >order some more. Nothing about this project is taking the quick and easy path. All of my DAQ / signal conditioning requirements will be implemented with NI C-series modules on the cRIO - also calibratable and NIST-traceable. >Well that turned into a bit of a ramble, hopefully some is useful. > >Cheers, >Steve Thanks for your thoughts. They prompted me to think about a few things. Sean >On 3 Mar 2016 3:52 pm, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> That's a smart idea. I would also tie that valve actuation >mechanically >> into the actuation mechanism for the hatch dogs, so it remains >intuitive >> and doesn't require a second action. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On March 2, 2016 9:05:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >< >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Yes, didn't think of the pressure you get when you open the door. >>> You would need to have a valve to release the vacuum before being >able >>> to open the door, perhaps this valve could be a 3 way valve, letting >air >>> in between the o-rings >>> & closing the flow to the transducer simultaneously. This would stop >a >>> low pressure transducer >>> being destroyed & stop the vacuu! m pump cutting in as it would >maintain >>> a vacuum in the line. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:32 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock >>> >>> Sean, If you are only vacuuming that 1" or so circle in-between the >O >>> rings will the vacuum be enough to hold it? Seems like you'd have >around >>> 280# pounds with a 10 Hg vacuum. or you could have close to a >total >>> vacuum? 25 Hg ? then you could get upwards to 700# + , If the >O rings >>> squeezed all the way down you might get metal to metal, then would >y! ou >>> still reap the benefit of that area acting as a force? Seems like >there >>> would be very little volume of vacuum. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock >>> Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 14:53:19 -0700 >>> >>> I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the >interlock >>> status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore >exposed >>> to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which in >the case >>> of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the pressure at full >>> lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to full pressur! e >when >>> the lockout is operated. This means that in order for this >conceptual >>> design to work, I must accept a larger range, lesser resolution >measurement >>> for those hatches, but it occurs to me now that in every case, I >would need >>> to accommodate the maximum anticipated pressure on either side of >each >>> hatch, if I expect to be able to track progressive seal leakage >without >>> damaging a transducer. Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of >0 - 15 >>> psia transducers. The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or >whatever, and I >>> may require higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to eff! >>> ectively measure the range below 1 ata. >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via >Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just attach >it >>> to the pipe from the compressor that would run through the wall to >the >>> various >>> compartments & sealing flanges. There are of course other >complications >>> with >>> releasing the vacuum pressure on the individual hatches. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:35 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock >>> >>> It is not the personnel transfer hatch that presents the problem, >but >>> rather the egress hatches in the lockout chamber, as those flanges >will! >>> see the lockout pressure in normal operation. I can get away with a >larger >>> range pressure transducer for those hatches, but then I lose >measurement >>> resolution. >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On March 2, 2016 9:32:49 AM MST, Alan James via >Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> that sounds a good idea. Nuytco set the o-ring on the deep worker >hatch >>> externally with a vacuum >>> pump, but with your twin seal idea you could do this from within the >sub >>> without decreasing the hull pressure. >>> If the transducers are just monitoring the vacuum between the o-! >rings >>> can't the transducer be >>> m! ounted on the 1atm side of the diver lockout hatch & not be >exposed to >>> diver lockout pressure? >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > >>> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:41 AM >>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock >>> >>> Doing some further design on my lockout submersible project, I came >up >>> with a novel way to implement hatch interlocks, which doubles as a >seal >>> condition monitor, ! and a means of establishing a preliminary seal >in the >>> absence of a pressure differential without relying on the hatch dogs >to p! >>> rovide the initial o-ring squeeze. >>> My design entails two o-rings per hatch (vessel has six hatches: >cabin >>> loading / escape, outer lockout loading / escape, inner lockout >loading / >>> escape, inner lockout egress , outer lockout egress, and transfer). >These >>> o-rings are concentric face seals, each residing within a half >dovetail >>> groove for positive retention of each o-ring when the hatch is >opened or >>> manipulated. The grooves are oriented such that the flat face of >each half >>> dovetail faces the intermediate space between the two rings. This >>> intermediate volume is not isolated, but rather connected (on the >sealing >>> flange side) to a vacuum transducer, and piped through appropriate >valving >>> to a vacuum pump. When the hatch is closed, this intermediate space >is >>> pulled to vacuum (as strongly as the pump allows), then locked off, >and the >>> strength of this vacuum is measured by the transducer and >continuously >>> monitored. The interlock is clear as long as the va! cuum holds, a! >nd >>> activates the moment the seal is rele! ased, instead of relying on >some >>> arbitrary movement of the hatch to indicate that it is open. >>> Apart from the obvious expense, I see a potential problem with >exposing >>> those vacuum transducers in the lockout hatches to high pressure, >>> necessitating either a less sensitive transducer that will withstand >the >>> pressure, or some means of isolating the transducer when the >pressure >>> approaches the limit of its range - I'm still working this out in my >head, >>> but I thought I would share anyway. >>> Sean >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 3 08:55:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2016 06:55:10 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock In-Reply-To: <2147201057.2246219.1457011942750.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2147201057.2246219.1457011942750.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7eab5966-5a5c-4bef-856f-a77a01bf5054@email.android.com> Seal condition monitoring is a secondary benefit. The primary purpose of the system is to generate an interlock signal (stable vacuum between seals + dogs engaged = hatch closed) which is used elsewhere in the software logic, so it has to have an electronic output. Ergonomics come into play too, which is why I am trying to minimize the number of analog gauges - only those required by the rules which serve critical backup functions. Displays which are too busy can be confusing. There is going to be a ton of equipment crammed into a small space, and I don't want to run more piping or cabling than necessary so that I can keep things clean, or at least, as clean as has ever been seen in a submersible. Critical information readily visible, everything else at your fingertips on demand, and an easily accessible, exhaustively labeled yet simple and intuitive manual backup system for when the SHTF. Central control and monitoring also enables me to echo important information to a display within the lockout chamber for the benefit of its occupants. Sean On March 3, 2016 6:32:22 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean,Since the goal here is to?monitor o-ring condition. ?How about >a central pump with a manifold with a vent valve and gauge piped to >your dash. ?In the name of keeping it simple, there is no need for >anything electronic. Steve has the gauge that can handle the pressure >boundaries. Your set up does not need to indicate witch o-ring is in >trouble because your going to abort regardless of witch one it is. ?A >visual inspection at the surface will locate the problem. ?Hank > >On Thursday, March 3, 2016 5:32 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Actually, I'll be using a PAC - a slightly more powerful version of a >PLC, in the form of a National Instruments CompactRIO controller, >running an embedded HMI on touchscreen hardware very similar to Cliff's >implementation. I want as much as possible for the only manual controls >and indicators to be those required by the rules as manual overrides, >and of course the isolation valves at the through hulls. Everything >else should run automatically or "fly-by-wire" during normal operation. >Fortuitously, one of my projects at work in 2014 was the development of >a smooth, high accuracy pressure ramp and control system for automatic >pressurization and depressurization to 60,000 psi, both hardware and >software development, so I know how to do this.Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 11:56:31 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Wow some good products Steve,I had a look at your Ebay product >inventory?http://www.ebay.com/sch/tfmengineeringaust/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=I >can see you will be a great source of knowledge for tracking down those >tricky bits & pieces.?? ?If Sean puts an LED between the pressure >sensor & the solenoid valve or between the solenoid valve & it's power >source, he will be able to see which set of o-rings is not sealing. And >if he was Cliff he wouldbe feeding the information to his PLC & >displaying it on his HMI.Cheers Alan > >From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 7:22 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >Hi Sean, >I really like the idea of vacuum monitoring for hatch leaking - nice >one. Also Alan a good idea for a single central transmitter monitoring >the whole thing.A couple of thoughts from me: >- as well as the vacuum breaker valves on the actual hatches, you'd >need individual manual isolation valves in the 1atm chamber so you >determine which was leaking, and in case one leaks. >- You could protect the transducer from over pressure with a relief >valve in the 1atm chamber (installed on the 1atm side of isolation >valves) >- I'm not sure how likely it really is, but if you got salt water into >the vacuum space the water would quickly evaporate, leading the salt >residue to accumulate over time >- oil lubricated vacuum pumps, or at least the ones I've used, at only >moderate vacuum can create smoke/oil vapour which would be >uncomfortable in a sub. Using a diaphragm pump or similar you'd >probably achieve a much poorer vacuum but no atmospheric contaminants >- a vacuum switch would probably be cheaper and more likely to survive >the over pressure, at the cost of less detailed info, ie. This one is >good to 200m >http://www.suco-tech.com/product.php?p=44&c=12 >- actually on reflection, I sell digital gauges for SCUBA gas mixing >(shameless plug: >http://m.ebay.com/itm/Electronic-Digital-Pressure-Gauge-for-SCUBA-Blending-Nitrox-Trimix-Oxygen-/262307605334?nav=SEARCH >) and they are -1 to 400bar(g) in 0.1 bar increments, which would be ok >for both the vacuum and over pressure, so it can't be too hard, and >requires an ADC resolution of only 12 bits - if 10 levels of vacuum >measurement would be ok? >- I have some very reasonably priced transducer samples coming from the >same supplier - if they work out ok I could send you one or at least >the specs. >- For a quick and easy way of turning high res analogue signals into >useful digital data I can highly recommend this Arduino shield: >http://rascalmicro.com/docs-precision-voltage-shield/ >Brandon has made a couple of 18-bit versions for me, which are good >enough for 0.1% readings from oxygen cells and the like. I've been >meaning to order some more.Well that turned into a bit of a ramble, >hopefully some is useful.Cheers, >SteveOn 3 Mar 2016 3:52 pm, "Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > >That's a smart idea. I would also tie that valve actuation mechanically >into the actuation mechanism for the hatch dogs, so it remains >intuitive and doesn't require a second action.Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 9:05:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Yes, didn't think of the pressure you get when you open the door.You >would need to have a valve to release the vacuum before being ableto >open the door, perhaps this valve could be a 3 way valve, letting air >in between the o-rings& closing the flow to?the transducer >simultaneously. This would stop a low pressure transducer?being >destroyed & stop the vacuu! m pumpcutting in as it would maintain a >vacuum in the line.Cheers Alan >From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:32 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock > >Sean,? If you are only vacuuming that 1" or so circle in-between the O >rings will the vacuum be enough to hold it??? Seems like you'd have >around 280# pounds with a 10 Hg vacuum.?? or you could ?have close to a >total vacuum??? 25 Hg? ?? then you could get upwards to 700# +? ,? If >the O rings squeezed all the way down you might get metal to metal, >then would y! ou stillreap the benefit of that area acting as a >force??? Seems like there would be very little volume of vacuum. ?Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch interlock >Date: W! ed, 02Mar 2016 14:53:19 -0700 > >I will have one transducer per hatch, so that I can track the interlock >status and seal integrity per hatch. Each transducer is therefore >exposed to whatever pressure exists at the flange between orings, which >in the case of the lockout hatches must necessarily include the >pressure at full lockout depth, because those flanges are exposed to >full pressur! e whenthe lockout is operated.? This means that in order >for this conceptual design to work, I must accept a larger range, >lesser resolution measurement for those hatches, but it occurs to me >now that in every case, I would need to accommodate the maximum >anticipated pressure on either side of each hatch, if I expect to be >able to track progressive seal leakage without damaging a transducer. >Ergo, only the 1 atm spaces could make use of 0 - 15 psia transducers. >The rest would have to be 0 - 250 psia or whatever, and I may require >higher resolution signal conditioning (24 bit?) to eff! ectivelymeasure >the range below 1 ata.Sean > > >On March 2, 2016 1:19:54 PM MST, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Sean,why not leave the transducer in the 1 atm compartment & just >attach itto the pipe from the compressor that would run through the >wall to the variouscompartments & sealing flanges. There are of course >other complications withreleasing the vacuum pressure on the individual >hatches.Alan > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 6 13:58:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=AF=C2=BB=C2=BFAl_Secor?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 18:58:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater GPS for divers References: <1018848042.3497863.1457290689577.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1018848042.3497863.1457290689577.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Interesting navigation device using a combination of GPS and inertial guidance could be useful for psubs.... http://scubadiverlife.com/2016/03/05/project-ariadna-will-offer-gps-for-divers/ Al Secor From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 7 03:11:52 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 08:11:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater GPS for divers In-Reply-To: <1018848042.3497863.1457290689577.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1018848042.3497863.1457290689577.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1018848042.3497863.1457290689577.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1989050035.5035008.1457338312952.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> That was interesting Al.?They say they already have the product but?the problem is scaling it down?to a size that can be worn on the wrist. Maybe they couldsell us what they have?Cheers Alan From: ???Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, March 7, 2016 7:58 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater GPS for divers Interesting navigation device using a combination of GPS and inertial guidance could be? useful for psubs.... http://scubadiverlife.com/2016/03/05/project-ariadna-will-offer-gps-for-divers/ Al Secor _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 7 09:13:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 07:13:54 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Underwater GPS for divers In-Reply-To: <1018848042.3497863.1457290689577.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1018848042.3497863.1457290689577.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1018848042.3497863.1457290689577.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b538bb-b128-4744-b98d-1f0b44b7af12@email.android.com> "11 independent sensors" I'm going to assume that these are the 9 typical axis measurements in an IMU (3 orthogonal accelerometers, 3 orthogonal rate gyros, and three orthogonal magnetometers), plus the gps (useless except on the surface) and a depth sensor used to fix position / velocity in the Z direction? There's not specific discussion of error in the article, but I'd be really surprised if the position uncertainty didn't continually accumulate in the absence of a DVL or some other means of limiting the integration error in the horizontal plane. I played around with an IMU many years ago - neat device, except it did periodically need external correction to zero the accumulated integration error. GPS will do this at the surface, and a depth sensor will do it for one axis at depth. Deadband can help, but then you have a minimum speed of movement at which the device will work. Call me skeptical, but I'd like to see the tech specs. Sean On March 6, 2016 11:58:09 AM MST, "???Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >Interesting navigation device using a combination of GPS and inertial >guidance could be useful for psubs.... > >http://scubadiverlife.com/2016/03/05/project-ariadna-will-offer-gps-for-divers/ > >Al Secor >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 11 06:48:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 11:48:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma upgrade References: <2142890164.245856.1457696888357.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2142890164.245856.1457696888357.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,Elementary 3000 is in final ?assembly stage, now that the final paint is dry. ?That gets me thinking about getting Gamma done. ?Gamma is also ready for final paint and re-assembly, But, I am thinking ?now it should have a 10hp diesel engine in the escape pod. ?I can mount the engine on a track so it simply slides out of the pod and into the hull if I need to escape with the pod. ?I would use the engine as a generator to power the thrusters and maybe add a couple of thrusters for more speed since the power is only limited by ?fuel supply. ?A shaft or magnetic coupler through the hull would be more efficient but then it is more complicated to remove the engine in an emergency also the pod is not buoyant enough for the extra weight of a prop assembly.?Things to sort out,?Cooling the engine- it could ?be keel cooled or a heat exchanger so it can have proper temperature control and anti freeze.Exhaust- I have to think about that one-I would need a valve that can handle the heat or water cool the exhaust. ?If the exhaust is water cooled then I would need an extra pump and in that case I could use a heat exchanger for cooling. ?I would like to avoid a raw water pump.Fuel- I imagine an external fuel tank is best with a bladder so the tank does not need to be a pressure vessel. ?Much to consider.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 14 14:45:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 13:45:53 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Bathymertic_Maps?= Message-ID: <20160314184553.21788.qmail@server268.com> I am trying to find a map of the world or affordable maps of all the regions of the world that has all the bathymetric information of ocean depths. Does anyone have any sources? Thank you, Scott Waters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 14 17:14:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 21:14:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] add penetrator References: <1955622117.1213468.1457990078498.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1955622117.1213468.1457990078498.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,I would like to add one more electrical penetrator to my new sub and I don't want to weld in a reinforcement ?for the penetrator. ?I am thinking of drilling and threading into the edge of my hatch land . ?I am thinking it will not bother the strength of the hatch because it is two inches thick. ?Gamma has four holes drilled and threaded in the bare hull with no bushing or anything. ?That was certified to 1,000 feet so I figure I can do that through the 2 inch material. ?What do you think?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 14 17:43:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 21:43:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps In-Reply-To: <20160314184553.21788.qmail@server268.com> References: <20160314184553.21788.qmail@server268.com> Message-ID: <1864602852.1529136.1457991834127.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Scott,there is this on line facility, or are you after a map for the wall?Bathymetric Data Viewer | ? | | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | Bathymetric Data ViewerGEBCO_2014 Bathymetry Color Scale (depth in meters): ETOPO1 Color Scale (depth/elevation in meters): | | | | View on maps.ngdc.noaa.gov | Preview by Yahoo | | | | ? | Alan From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 7:45 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps I am trying to find a map of the world or affordable maps of all the regions of the world that has all the bathymetric information of ocean depths. Does anyone have any sources? Thank you, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 14 21:22:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 19:22:55 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] add penetrator In-Reply-To: <1955622117.1213468.1457990078498.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1955622117.1213468.1457990078498.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1955622117.1213468.1457990078498.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can you sketch or otherwise provide a picture of your idea with the hatch land? I can't quite visualize what you mean. There are some potential pitfalls, but I need to see what you're talking about. As far as penetrators in the hull shell, the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, Section 8, Division 2 (addressing PVHOs) refers to so-called "insignificant" penetrations as follows: Openings of 3? inches or smaller are considered insignificant if they are made in plate of 3/8 inch or less in thickness and their finishing connections are welded. The opening must not exceed 2-3/8 inches if the plate is greater than 3/8 inch thick. Threaded, studded, or expanded connections may not exceed 2-3/8 inches regardless of plate thickness. To qualify, the openings must be normal orientation. Two adjacent openings not exceeding the sizes listed above must have a minimum center to center distance equal to the sum of their diameters in order to remain insignificant. Furthermore, two openings of diameters d1 and d2, in a group of three or more, must have a minimum center distance equal to 2.5 (d1 + d2) when in spherical shells or heads or (1 + 1.5 cos ?)(d1 + d2) when in cylinders or cones, ? being the angle from the longitudinal axis of the shell. That said, I am personally hesitant to use any tapered thread (I.e. NPT) fitting in a hull shell, and would instead recommend either a welded fitting or an O-ring sealed straight thread fitting. The latter, of course, requires a pad lest the required spot face to seat the fitting reduce the local shell thickness, so your options are limited. Sean On March 14, 2016 3:14:38 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean,I would like to add one more electrical penetrator to my new >sub and I don't want to weld in a reinforcement ?for the penetrator. ?I >am thinking of drilling and threading into the edge of my hatch land . >?I am thinking it will not bother the strength of the hatch because it >is two inches thick. ?Gamma has four holes drilled and threaded in the >bare hull with no bushing or anything. ?That was certified to 1,000 >feet so I figure I can do that through the 2 inch material. ?What do >you think?Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 14 21:45:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 21:45:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps In-Reply-To: <20160314184553.21788.qmail@server268.com> References: <20160314184553.21788.qmail@server268.com> Message-ID: Hi Scott, I've had lots of fun with this one. Click the View menu and check Water Depth and Depth Contours. http://map.openseamap.org/ Best, Alec On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 2:45 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I am trying to find a map of the world or affordable maps of all the > regions of the world that has all the bathymetric information of ocean > depths. Does anyone have any sources? > > Thank you, > Scott Waters > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 14 21:42:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 01:42:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] add penetrator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <625179761.1356548.1458006176580.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,Thank you,I intend on using a .5 inch strait fine?thread penetrator with o-ring seal. ?That is the reason for going through the hatch land. ?The hatch land was machined flat on the top and will accommodate the penetrator with no machining because the penetrator has the recess in it for the o-ring. ?Also the land is very beefy. ?It may be better to just buy a new penetrator with more connections. ?I am one wire short. ? As always ?you are big help!Hank On Monday, March 14, 2016 7:22 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Can you sketch or otherwise provide a picture of your idea with the hatch land? I can't quite visualize what you mean. There are some potential pitfalls, but I need to see what you're talking about.As far as penetrators in the hull shell, the? ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, Section 8, Division 2 (addressing PVHOs) refers to so-called "insignificant" penetrations as follows:Openings of 3?? inches or smaller are considered? insignificant if they are made in plate of? 3/8? inch or less in thickness and their finishing connections? are welded.? The opening must not exceed 2-3/8 inches if? the? plate is greater than? 3/8? inch thick.? Threaded, studded, or expanded connections may not exceed 2-3/8? inches regardless of plate thickness.? To qualify,? the openings must be normal orientation. Two adjacent openings not exceeding the sizes listed above must have a minimum center to center distance equal to the sum of their diameters in order to remain insignificant. Furthermore, two openings of diameters d1 and d2, in a group of three or more, must have a minimum? center distance equal to 2.5 (d1? +? d2) when in spherical shells or heads or (1 + 1.5 cos? ?)(d1? +? d2) when in cylinders or cones, ? being the angle from the longitudinal axis of the shell.That said, I am personally hesitant to use any tapered thread (I.e. NPT) fitting in a hull shell, and would instead recommend either a welded fitting or an O-ring sealed straight thread fitting. The latter, of course, requires a pad lest the required spot face to seat the fitting reduce the local shell thickness, so your options are limited.Sean On March 14, 2016 3:14:38 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,I would like to add one more electrical penetrator to my new sub and I don't want to weld in a reinforcement ?for the penetrator. ?I am thinking of drilling and threading into the edge of my hatch land . ?I am thinking it will not bother the strength of the hatch because it is two inches thick. ?Gamma has four holes drilled and threaded in the bare hull with no bushing or anything. ?That was certified to 1,000 feet so I figure I can do that through the 2 inch material. ?What do you think?Hank Personal_Submersib! lesmailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 14 21:51:20 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 21:51:20 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps In-Reply-To: <1864602852.1529136.1457991834127.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20160314184553.21788.qmail@server268.com> <1864602852.1529136.1457991834127.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That's really cool Alan, thanks. I really wonder about the aligned holes and big lines that look like tracks going for thousands of miles. Must be something about the generation of the map. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Scott, > there is this on line facility, or are you after a map for the wall? > Bathymetric Data Viewer > > > [image: image] > > > > > > Bathymetric Data Viewer > GEBCO_2014 Bathymetry Color Scale (depth in meters): ETOPO1 Color Scale > (depth/elevation in meters): > View on maps.ngdc.noaa.gov > Preview by Yahoo > > Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 15, 2016 7:45 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps > > I am trying to find a map of the world or affordable maps of all the > regions of the world that has all the bathymetric information of ocean > depths. Does anyone have any sources? > > Thank you, > Scott Waters > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 14 21:56:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 20:56:30 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps Message-ID: Wow. Thank you Alan and Alec! Great help!-Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/14/2016 8:45 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps Hi Scott, I've had lots of fun with this one. Click the View menu and check Water Depth and Depth Contours. http://map.openseamap.org/ Best, Alec On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 2:45 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am trying to find a map of the world or affordable maps of all the regions of the world that has all the bathymetric information of ocean depths. Does anyone have any sources? Thank you, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 14 22:29:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 02:29:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1350731942.1698040.1458008949050.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Scott, Alec,those maps seem to complement each other.I just had a look at Santorini Island & are getting more information on Alec's map.If you go to the menu on the left & un-check?Multibeam Bathymetric Surveys ?then you get rid of all those coloredlines. Also on the right under options you can check bathymetric contours to add contour lines.Alan From: Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps Wow. Thank you Alan and Alec! Great help!-Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/14/2016 8:45 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps Hi Scott, I've had lots of fun with this one. Click the View menu and check Water Depth and Depth Contours. http://map.openseamap.org/ Best, Alec On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 2:45 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am trying to find a map of the world or affordable maps of all the regions of the world that has all the bathymetric information of ocean depths. Does anyone have any sources? Thank you, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 14 23:02:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 22:02:50 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps Message-ID: <3sa7h13deimpxh0hsgglpj0k.1458010970914@email.android.com> Alan,I have spent the last 5 or so hours on the bathymetric site. Very helpful.Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/14/2016 9:29 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps Scott, Alec,those maps seem to complement each other.I just had a look at Santorini Island & are getting more information on Alec's map.If you go to the menu on the left & un-check?Multibeam Bathymetric Surveys ?then you get rid of all those coloredlines. Also on the right under options you can check bathymetric contours to add contour lines.Alan From: Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps Wow. Thank you Alan and Alec! Great help!-Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/14/2016 8:45 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps Hi Scott, I've had lots of fun with this one. Click the View menu and check Water Depth and Depth Contours. http://map.openseamap.org/ Best, Alec On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 2:45 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am trying to find a map of the world or affordable maps of all the regions of the world that has all the bathymetric information of ocean depths. Does anyone have any sources? Thank you, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 14 23:35:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 21:35:24 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Crash bars / space frame Message-ID: <1269a26a-bdb1-4623-9ad7-b07858565a9e@email.android.com> This may be most appropriately directed at Vance, Phil et. al., but for anyone who incorporated into their designs impact protection for either your windows, hull or vulnerable external appendages in the form of crash bars or space frame, I am curious as to what scenarios were considered or what impact forces you designed to protect against? Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 14 23:50:29 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 21:50:29 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] add penetrator In-Reply-To: <625179761.1356548.1458006176580.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <625179761.1356548.1458006176580.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Do you have a coaming (flange on trunk) or just a pad welded in the shell as your hatch land? I'm still trying to picture this. You're saying that the flat area is larger than the hatch, to the extent that you can install a penetrator adjacent to but beyond the diameter of the hatch? I'd worry about keeping it physically protected, but otherwise would consider that okay provided it was sufficiently far away from actual load bearing area on the land - if you were to fully compress the hatch O-ring and get metal-to-metal contact, don't put a penetrator closer to the resultant bearing region than one penetrator diameter at minimum, and preferably keep it further away. If you centered it between the edge of that load-bearing area of the hatch, and the weld on the outside of the pad, where would that put it? Sean On March 14, 2016 7:42:56 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean,Thank you,I intend on using a .5 inch strait fine?thread >penetrator with o-ring seal. ?That is the reason for going through the >hatch land. ?The hatch land was machined flat on the top and will >accommodate the penetrator with no machining because the penetrator has >the recess in it for the o-ring. ?Also the land is very beefy. ?It may >be better to just buy a new penetrator with more connections. ?I am one >wire short. ? As always ?you are big help!Hank > >On Monday, March 14, 2016 7:22 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Can you sketch or otherwise provide a picture of your idea with the >hatch land? I can't quite visualize what you mean. There are some >potential pitfalls, but I need to see what you're talking about.As far >as penetrators in the hull shell, the? ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel >Code, Section 8, Division 2 (addressing PVHOs) refers to so-called >"insignificant" penetrations as follows:Openings of 3?? inches or >smaller are considered? insignificant if they are made in plate of? >3/8? inch or less in thickness and their finishing connections? are >welded.? The opening must not exceed 2-3/8 inches if? the? plate is >greater than? 3/8? inch thick.? Threaded, studded, or expanded >connections may not exceed 2-3/8? inches regardless of plate >thickness.? To qualify,? the openings must be normal orientation. Two >adjacent openings not exceeding the sizes listed above must have a >minimum center to center distance equal to the sum of their diameters >in order to remain insignificant. Furthermore, two openings of >diameters d1 and d2, in a group of three or more, must have a minimum? >center distance equal to 2.5 (d1? +? d2) when in spherical shells or >heads or (1 + 1.5 cos? ?)(d1? +? d2) when in cylinders or cones, ? >being the angle from the longitudinal axis of the shell.That said, I am >personally hesitant to use any tapered thread (I.e. NPT) fitting in a >hull shell, and would instead recommend either a welded fitting or an >O-ring sealed straight thread fitting. The latter, of course, requires >a pad lest the required spot face to seat the fitting reduce the local >shell thickness, so your options are limited.Sean > > >On March 14, 2016 3:14:38 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Hi Sean,I would like to add one more electrical penetrator to my new >sub and I don't want to weld in a reinforcement ?for the penetrator. ?I >am thinking of drilling and threading into the edge of my hatch land . >?I am thinking it will not bother the strength of the hatch because it >is two inches thick. ?Gamma has four holes drilled and threaded in the >bare hull with no bushing or anything. ?That was certified to 1,000 >feet so I figure I can do that through the 2 inch material. ?What do >you think?Hank >Personal_Submersib! lesmailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 15 10:38:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 14:38:19 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New Sub Project. Message-ID: ?Hi All, I have bought Scadoc 1000 from Emile. Its just arrived today in Guernsey and I will collect it from the harbour freight shed at the weekend. I am not really quite ready for a new sub project, but I went to look and couldn't say no.... The idea is that the sub is big enough to fit a small diesel engine in, so I can be more independent on the surface. Still a lot of work to do of course, but there is a lot of work not to do as well. I will make all the changes that I have learned building Jodie B to make a more useful boat. I want to have this summer diving with Jodie B and then I will start on the new one. I am getting a new workshop which I am hoping will be ready mid summer. Kind Regards James ? ? ? ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3043.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 157905 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 15 10:45:36 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:45:36 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New Sub Project. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Congrats James! I can see how a diesel electric would be perfect with your location. Super cool. Best, Alec On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 10:38 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > ?Hi All, > > I have bought Scadoc 1000 from Emile. Its just arrived today in Guernsey > and I will collect it from the harbour freight shed at the weekend. > > I am not really quite ready for a new sub project, but I went to look and > couldn't say no.... > > The idea is that the sub is big enough to fit a small diesel engine in, so > I can be more independent on the surface. Still a lot of work to do of > course, but there is a lot of work not to do as well. I will make all the > changes that I have learned building Jodie B to make a more useful boat. > > I want to have this summer diving with Jodie B and then I will start on > the new one. I am getting a new workshop which I am hoping will be ready > mid summer. > > Kind Regards > James > > > > ? > ? > > > ? > ? > ? > ? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3043.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 157905 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 15 11:17:39 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:17:39 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New Sub Project. Message-ID: Congrats James!-Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/15/2016 9:38 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New Sub Project. ?Hi All,?I?have bought Scadoc?1000?from Emile.? Its just arrived today in Guernsey and I will collect it from the harbour freight shed?at the weekend.?I am not really quite ready for a new sub project, but I went to look and couldn't say no....?The idea is that the sub is big enough to fit a small diesel engine in, so I can be more independent on the surface.? Still a lot of work to do of course, but there is a lot of work not to do as well.?? I will make all the changes that I have learned building Jodie B to make a more useful boat.?I want to have this?summer diving with Jodie B and then I will start on the new one.? I am getting a new workshop which I am hoping will be ready mid summer.?Kind RegardsJames? ? ?? ? ? ? ???? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3043.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 157905 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 15 11:17:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:17:51 +0100 (MET) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New Sub Project. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1458055071665.1623467.c3fc50afc171a0ab55851b140da2d3b91e7b5bf0@spica.telekom.de> A hardcore Psuber has at least two submarines. One to operate and one to working on.. Gratulations. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New Sub Project. Datum: 2016-03-15T15:41:54+0100 Von: "James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hi All, I have bought Scadoc 1000 from Emile. Its just arrived today in Guernsey and I will collect it from the harbour freight shed at the weekend. I am not really quite ready for a new sub project, but I went to look and couldn't say no.... The idea is that the sub is big enough to fit a small diesel engine in, so I can be more independent on the surface. Still a lot of work to do of course, but there is a lot of work not to do as well. I will make all the changes that I have learned building Jodie B to make a more useful boat. I want to have this summer diving with Jodie B and then I will start on the new one. I am getting a new workshop which I am hoping will be ready mid summer. Kind Regards James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 15 13:35:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 06:35:31 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New Sub Project. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CE2D1DE-72D5-4E23-A3AD-437123C00193@yahoo.com> Well done, great photo. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 16/03/2016, at 3:38 am, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ?Hi All, > > I have bought Scadoc 1000 from Emile. Its just arrived today in Guernsey and I will collect it from the harbour freight shed at the weekend. > > I am not really quite ready for a new sub project, but I went to look and couldn't say no.... > > The idea is that the sub is big enough to fit a small diesel engine in, so I can be more independent on the surface. Still a lot of work to do of course, but there is a lot of work not to do as well. I will make all the changes that I have learned building Jodie B to make a more useful boat. > > I want to have this summer diving with Jodie B and then I will start on the new one. I am getting a new workshop which I am hoping will be ready mid summer. > > Kind Regards > James > > > > ? > ? > > > ? > ? > ? > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 03:48:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?UTF-8?Q?Lasse_Schmidt_Westr=C3=A9n?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 08:48:07 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bathymertic Maps In-Reply-To: <20160314184553.21788.qmail@server268.com> References: <20160314184553.21788.qmail@server268.com> Message-ID: Also check out Raymarines sonar charts, they are great. Cheers Lasse m?ndag 14 mars 2016 skrev via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > I am trying to find a map of the world or affordable maps of all the > regions of the world that has all the bathymetric information of ocean > depths. Does anyone have any sources? > > Thank you, > Scott Waters > -- Lasse Schmidt Westr?n Upplevelsepresent.se 070-28 32 660 Upplevelser, events och kryssningar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 07:31:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 07:31:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sherwin-Williams code Message-ID: <6C6117DE-BC58-42A2-A038-315439F12706@gmail.com> Hi all, Does anyone have the PSUBS discount code for Sherwin Williams? If so I'd really appreciate if you could email me the details off-line. Thanks, Alec From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 08:57:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 08:57:51 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sherwin-Williams code Message-ID: Alec, I just sent you a text. I have three different email addresses for you. Which one do you want me to use? Contact me at _JimToddPsub at aol.com_ (mailto:JimToddPsub at aol.com) . The address is not case-sensitive. Cheers, Jim In a message dated 3/16/2016 6:31:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hi all, Does anyone have the PSUBS discount code for Sherwin Williams? If so I'd really appreciate if you could email me the details off-line. Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 11:59:20 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 11:59:20 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sherwin-Williams code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alic the account Acct. 585849573 - PSUBS John K (203) 414-1000 Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 16, 2016, at 8:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, > I just sent you a text. I have three different email addresses for you. Which one do you want me to use? Contact me at JimToddPsub at aol.com. The address is not case-sensitive. > Cheers, > Jim > > In a message dated 3/16/2016 6:31:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > Hi all, > > Does anyone have the PSUBS discount code for Sherwin Williams? If so I'd really appreciate if you could email me the details off-line. > > Thanks, > > Alec > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 13:16:40 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 18:16:40 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New Sub Project. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pity to let go the nice sub but I know she is in good hands! Pic: There were even 3 subs in the shop ! All the best, Emile _____ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: dinsdag 15 maart 2016 15:38 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New Sub Project. ?Hi All, I have bought Scadoc 1000 from Emile. Its just arrived today in Guernsey and I will collect it from the harbour freight shed at the weekend. I am not really quite ready for a new sub project, but I went to look and couldn't say no.... The idea is that the sub is big enough to fit a small diesel engine in, so I can be more independent on the surface. Still a lot of work to do of course, but there is a lot of work not to do as well. I will make all the changes that I have learned building Jodie B to make a more useful boat. I want to have this summer diving with Jodie B and then I will start on the new one. I am getting a new workshop which I am hoping will be ready mid summer. Kind Regards James ? ? ? ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39950 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2162.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 30124 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2157.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 30360 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 13:25:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 17:25:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New Sub Project. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <594506404.963543.1458149107266.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Emile,Is the little sub also sold?Hank On Wednesday, March 16, 2016 11:17 AM, Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv6205005384 #yiv6205005384 -- _filtered #yiv6205005384 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv6205005384 #yiv6205005384 p.yiv6205005384MsoNormal, #yiv6205005384 li.yiv6205005384MsoNormal, #yiv6205005384 div.yiv6205005384MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6205005384 a:link, #yiv6205005384 span.yiv6205005384MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6205005384 a:visited, #yiv6205005384 span.yiv6205005384MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6205005384 span.yiv6205005384E-mailStijl17 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;} _filtered #yiv6205005384 {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}#yiv6205005384 div.yiv6205005384Section1 {}#yiv6205005384 Pity to let go the nice subbut I know she is in good hands! ? Pic: There were even 3subs in the shop ! ? All the best, Emile ? ? ? Van:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens James Frankland viaPersonal_Submersibles Verzonden: dinsdag 15 maart 201615:38 Aan: Personal Submersibles GeneralDiscussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New SubProject. ? ?Hi All, ? I?have bought Scadoc?1000?from Emile.? Its justarrived today in Guernsey and I will collect it from the harbour freightshed?at the weekend. ? I am not really quite ready for a new sub project, but I went to lookand couldn't say no.... ? The idea is that the sub is big enough to fit a small diesel engine in,so I can be more independent on the surface.? Still a lot of work to do ofcourse, but there is a lot of work not to do as well.?? I will makeall the changes that I have learned building Jodie B to make a more usefulboat. ? I want to have this?summer diving with Jodie B and then I willstart on the new one.? I am getting a new workshop which I am hoping willbe ready mid summer. ? Kind Regards James ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 39950 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 13:42:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 12:42:34 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sherwin-Williams code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C37836A-9257-4E48-A480-B3E9B77FE362@aol.com> Sherwin-Williams made the discount available to Psubs members. It may require the presentation of your membership card and an additional document. I'll send that to the Members email list later today Thanks, Jim T. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 16, 2016, at 10:59 AM, John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alic the account Acct. 585849573 - PSUBS > > John K > (203) 414-1000 > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 16, 2016, at 8:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alec, >> I just sent you a text. I have three different email addresses for you. Which one do you want me to use? Contact me at JimToddPsub at aol.com. The address is not case-sensitive. >> Cheers, >> Jim >> >> In a message dated 3/16/2016 6:31:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> Hi all, >> >> Does anyone have the PSUBS discount code for Sherwin Williams? If so I'd really appreciate if you could email me the details off-line. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 19:14:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 19:14:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sherwin-Williams code In-Reply-To: <9C37836A-9257-4E48-A480-B3E9B77FE362@aol.com> References: <9C37836A-9257-4E48-A480-B3E9B77FE362@aol.com> Message-ID: Hey guys thanks so much. It turns out an account has been created in their system and all we need to do is tell them the account number. It is "585849573 - PSUBS" (thanks John K.) The discount was huge. I got two gallons of Macropoxy for just under $90 and the normal price was $300. The attendant was astonished at the discount but went ahead with it because that's what he saw in the system. I'm still wondering if there was a mistake somewhere as the discount seems so substantial. Best, Alec On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Sherwin-Williams made the discount available to Psubs members. It may > require the presentation of your membership card and an additional > document. I'll send that to the Members email list later today > > Thanks, > Jim T. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 16, 2016, at 10:59 AM, John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alic the account Acct. 585849573 - PSUBS > > John K > (203) 414-1000 > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 16, 2016, at 8:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > I just sent you a text. I have three different email addresses for you. > Which one do you want me to use? Contact me at JimToddPsub at aol.com. The > address is not case-sensitive. > Cheers, > Jim > > In a message dated 3/16/2016 6:31:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > Hi all, > > Does anyone have the PSUBS discount code for Sherwin Williams? If so I'd > really appreciate if you could email me the details off-line. > > Thanks, > > Alec > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 22:41:10 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 22:41:10 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sherwin-Williams code Message-ID: <1f31ce.8069333.441b7346@aol.com> Apparently the email to the Member Forum didn't go through, so I'm resending it here: Sherwin-Williams marine rep Rick Gallenberger spoke at our 2012 Psubs Convention and set up a national account for Psubs members. Your local SW agent might require the attached letter and your Psubs membership card in order for you to receive the discount. The attached letter contains the account number as well as additional information. The account number is styled slightly differently in the letter than what Alec discovered in his purchase. Cheers, Jim T. In a message dated 3/16/2016 6:15:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Hey guys thanks so much. It turns out an account has been created in their system and all we need to do is tell them the account number. It is "585849573 - PSUBS" (thanks John K.) The discount was huge. I got two gallons of Macropoxy for just under $90 and the normal price was $300. The attendant was astonished at the discount but went ahead with it because that's what he saw in the system. I'm still wondering if there was a mistake somewhere as the discount seems so substantial. Best, Alec On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Jim Todd via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Sherwin-Williams made the discount available to Psubs members. It may require the presentation of your membership card and an additional document. I'll send that to the Members email list later today Thanks, Jim T. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 16, 2016, at 10:59 AM, John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Alic the account Acct. 585849573 - PSUBS John K _(203) 414-1000_ (tel:(203)%20414-1000) Sent from my iPhone On Mar 16, 2016, at 8:57 AM, via Personal_Submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > wrote: Alec, I just sent you a text. I have three different email addresses for you. Which one do you want me to use? Contact me at _JimToddPsub at aol.com_ (mailto:JimToddPsub at aol.com) . The address is not case-sensitive. Cheers, Jim In a message dated 3/16/2016 6:31:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) writes: Hi all, Does anyone have the PSUBS discount code for Sherwin Williams? If so I'd really appreciate if you could email me the details off-line. Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sherwin-W Psub account.doc Type: application/octet-stream Size: 275968 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 22:44:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 22:44:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sherwin-Williams tech sheet Message-ID: <1f3274.b030f2b.441b73f7@aol.com> Attached is a tech sheet from Sherwin-Williams that you might find helpful. -Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PSubSpecification.xls Type: application/octet-stream Size: 163328 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 22:47:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 02:47:59 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Sherwin-Williams_code?= Message-ID: <56ea1b40.492c8c0a.325de.ffffd442@mx.google.com> There are membership cards? Brian Sent from Microsoft Surface -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 23:14:20 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 23:14:20 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Membership cards Message-ID: <170980.6880c963.441b7b0c@aol.com> Brian, as best I recall, it came with your membership package along with your bumper sticker, etc. when you first joined Psubs. Jim In a message dated 3/16/2016 9:49:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: There are membership cards? Brian Sent from Microsoft Surface -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 16 23:15:06 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 03:15:06 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Membership_cards?= Message-ID: <56ea21e5.d1648c0a.d23c2.ffffd59d@mx.google.com> OK, the joke?s on me 'cause clearly it's irony. I didn't receive any of those things. Brian Sent from Microsoft Surface -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 17 00:29:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 22:29:50 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch detail Message-ID: <56EA32BE.9090707@telus.net> I sketched the double o-ring seal idea on one of my hatches, to illustrate what I was getting at. Image is attached. The channel through the pressure boundary would connect to a vacuum pump and pressure transducer. Sean -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: seal image.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 110105 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 17 01:07:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 22:07:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Membership cards In-Reply-To: <56ea21e5.d1648c0a.d23c2.ffffd59d@mx.google.com> References: <56ea21e5.d1648c0a.d23c2.ffffd59d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <003a01d1800a$f039e790$d0adb6b0$@telus.net> Nor did I, Brian. So it would seem that we both have fallen through the cracks. All in good time, I hope. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 8:15 PM To: via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Membership cards OK, the joke?s on me 'cause clearly it's irony. I didn't receive any of those things. Brian Sent from Microsoft Surface -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 17 15:10:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 15:10:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Membership cards In-Reply-To: <56ea21e5.d1648c0a.d23c2.ffffd59d@mx.google.com> References: <56ea21e5.d1648c0a.d23c2.ffffd59d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <56EB0127.5000808@psubs.org> Everyone will get new membership cards when I fix the membership software. There are some tweaks necessary but I have not had time to take care of them. Many of you have no doubt noticed that you have not been required to renew your membership which is because I have opted not to require it until I can get the membership software updated. When I do so we will get this rolling again. As far as discounts, it seems only fair to me that people who support PSUBS through their membership get this benefit so it does not help the organization to post any discount information publicly. Don't confuse the mailing list with membership, we do not require membership to participate in the mailing list. I will post the sherwin-williams info under the members area of the website so that we have it someplace it won't get lost again. Thanks, Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 17 15:42:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 19:42:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch detail In-Reply-To: <56EA32BE.9090707@telus.net> References: <56EA32BE.9090707@telus.net> Message-ID: <85937671.411830.1458243728601.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,you are not showing a third grove for the vacuum path!If you get a good metal to metal seal either side of the vacuum hole then youwon't be able to monitor any leak or seat the rest of the o-ring, or is their agrove in the landing for this.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch detail I sketched the double o-ring seal idea on one of my hatches, to illustrate what I was getting at.? Image is attached.? The channel through the pressure boundary would connect to a vacuum pump and pressure transducer. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 17 18:10:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 22:10:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Membership cards In-Reply-To: <56EB0127.5000808@psubs.org> References: <56EB0127.5000808@psubs.org> Message-ID: <959807415.470982.1458252655327.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jon,How do I access my account on Subdb to add a picture.Thanks'Hank On Thursday, March 17, 2016 1:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Everyone will get new membership cards when I fix the membership software.? There are some tweaks necessary but I have not had time to take care of them.? Many of you have no doubt noticed that you have not been required to renew your membership which is because I have opted not to require it until I can get the membership software updated.? When I do so we will get this rolling again.? As far as discounts, it seems only fair to me that people who support PSUBS through their membership get this benefit so it does not help the organization to post any discount information publicly.? Don't confuse the mailing list with membership, we do not require membership to participate in the mailing list.? I will post the sherwin-williams info under the members area of the website so that we have it someplace it won't get lost again. Thanks, Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 17 20:23:11 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 18:23:11 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch detail In-Reply-To: <85937671.411830.1458243728601.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <56EA32BE.9090707@telus.net> <85937671.411830.1458243728601.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <816971df-5a0d-49df-a0ad-a763b264e9a6@email.android.com> Sorry Alan, the detail was suppressed when I created the image. It isn't really a third groove, but rather just a bit of relief over most of that middle area so that there is positive clearance all the way around (no metal to metal contact). I can get away with this because the conical bearing area is predominately carrying the load. Sean On March 17, 2016 1:42:08 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean,you are not showing a third grove for the vacuum path!If you >get a good metal to metal seal either side of the vacuum hole then >youwon't be able to monitor any leak or seat the rest of the o-ring, or >is their agrove in the landing for this.Cheers Alan > > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:29 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch detail > >I sketched the double o-ring seal idea on one of my hatches, to >illustrate what I was getting at.? Image is attached.? The channel >through the pressure boundary would connect to a vacuum pump and >pressure transducer. > >Sean > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 18 11:47:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 11:47:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Membership cards In-Reply-To: <959807415.470982.1458252655327.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <56EB0127.5000808@psubs.org> <959807415.470982.1458252655327.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56EC22F8.10407@psubs.org> Hank, Click on the "support" button at top. Use your PSUBS user/password to log in. Click "My Submersibles" Click the green "+" icon under the "Administration" column. Click on "Photo Albums" Click on the album title you want to work on OR create a new album Click on "Upload Photos" Don't forget to sequence the photos in the order you want them to appear "Sequence Photos" Also add captions with "Edit Captions" Jon On 3/17/2016 6:10 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Jon, > How do I access my account on Subdb to add a picture. > Thanks' > Hank > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 18 14:49:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 18:49:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Membership cards In-Reply-To: <56EC22F8.10407@psubs.org> References: <56EC22F8.10407@psubs.org> Message-ID: <233257238.936853.1458326998904.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thank you JonHank On Friday, March 18, 2016 9:47 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Click on the "support" button at top. Use your PSUBS user/password to log in. Click "My Submersibles" Click the green "+" icon under the "Administration" column. Click on "Photo Albums" Click on the album title you want to work on OR create a new album Click on "Upload Photos" Don't forget to sequence the photos in the order you want them to appear "Sequence Photos" Also add captions with "Edit Captions" Jon On 3/17/2016 6:10 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon, How do I access my account on Subdb to add a picture. Thanks' Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 19 04:23:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 08:23:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch detail In-Reply-To: <816971df-5a0d-49df-a0ad-a763b264e9a6@email.android.com> References: <56EA32BE.9090707@telus.net> <85937671.411830.1458243728601.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <816971df-5a0d-49df-a0ad-a763b264e9a6@email.android.com> Message-ID: <423358143.1358814.1458375834577.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for the explanation Sean.I had a look at the ram frame strength issue in the G.L. rules, & they don't mention anythingspecific about their strength.I did have a technical advice contract with G.L., & through correspondence realized that there were some areas that were black & white & some areas that were grey. If it looked OK? & you could justify yourself then it would pass. Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch detail Sorry Alan, the detail was suppressed when I created the image. It isn't really a third groove, but rather just a bit of relief over most of that middle area so that there is positive clearance all the way around (no metal to metal contact). I can get away with this because the conical bearing area is predominately carrying the load.Sean On March 17, 2016 1:42:08 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,you are not showing a third grove for the vacuum path!If you get a good metal to metal seal either side of the vacuum hole then youwon't be able to monitor any leak or seat th! e restof the o-ring, or is their agrove in the landing for this.Cheers Alan From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch detail I sketched the double o-ring seal idea on one of my hat! ches,to illustrate what I was getting at.? Image is attached.? The channel through the pressure boundary would connect to a vacuum pump and pressure transducer. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 19 07:10:21 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 05:10:21 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch detail In-Reply-To: <423358143.1358814.1458375834577.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <56EA32BE.9090707@telus.net> <85937671.411830.1458243728601.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <816971df-5a0d-49df-a0ad-a763b264e9a6@email.android.com> <423358143.1358814.1458375834577.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That seems to be the case with most of the rule sets, GL, ABS and ASME PVHO included. PVHO is particularly onerous - you can apply for an interpretation, but your question cannot be phrased as wanting an exception for a particular design variation, but must instead be a general question asking for clarification on an existing rule, if it fails to address a particular embodiment. In my case, I am trying to design for simultaneous compliance with ABS, PVHO and Canadian vessel construction standards, and it's an exercise in frustration. Sean On March 19, 2016 2:23:54 AM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Thanks for the explanation Sean.I had a look at the ram frame strength >issue in the G.L. rules, & they don't mention anythingspecific about >their strength.I did have a technical advice contract with G.L., & >through correspondence realized that there were some areas that were >black & white & some areas that were grey. If it looked OK? & you could >justify yourself then it would pass. Alan > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 1:23 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch detail > >Sorry Alan, the detail was suppressed when I created the image. It >isn't really a third groove, but rather just a bit of relief over most >of that middle area so that there is positive clearance all the way >around (no metal to metal contact). I can get away with this because >the conical bearing area is predominately carrying the load.Sean > > >On March 17, 2016 1:42:08 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Hi Sean,you are not showing a third grove for the vacuum path!If you >get a good metal to metal seal either side of the vacuum hole then >youwon't be able to monitor any leak or seat th! e restof the o-ring, >or is their agrove in the landing for this.Cheers Alan > > > >From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:29 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch detail > >I sketched the double o-ring seal idea on one of my hat! ches,to >illustrate what I was getting at.? Image is attached.? The channel >through the pressure boundary would connect to a vacuum pump and >pressure transducer. > >Sean > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 20 14:59:33 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 18:59:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining References: <247433685.1520528.1458500373571.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <247433685.1520528.1458500373571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I need machining info, I am looking for a tool (drill?) ?that can drill a hole and make a o- ring seat at the same time. ?Is there such a tool or do I make one?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 20 16:56:52 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 21:56:52 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining In-Reply-To: <247433685.1520528.1458500373571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <247433685.1520528.1458500373571.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <247433685.1520528.1458500373571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, The tool does not exist. A profiled drill could do the job. Maybe you can use a drill that is meant for allen screw pot holes. Emile _____ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zondag 20 maart 2016 20:00 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining Hi All, I need machining info, I am looking for a tool (drill?) that can drill a hole and make a o- ring seat at the same time. Is there such a tool or do I make one? Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 20 17:10:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:10:19 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining In-Reply-To: References: <247433685.1520528.1458500373571.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <247433685.1520528.1458500373571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56ef1196.4d42620a.3a852.ffffe646@mx.google.com> Hank, There is a unimill but you are light on details. What size hole and what size o'ring groove and what diameter etc Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, 21 March 2016 9:57 a.m. To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining Hi Hank, The tool does not exist. A profiled drill could do the job. Maybe you can use a drill that is meant for allen screw pot holes. Emile _____ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zondag 20 maart 2016 20:00 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining Hi All, I need machining info, I am looking for a tool (drill?) that can drill a hole and make a o- ring seat at the same time. Is there such a tool or do I make one? Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 20 17:32:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 21:32:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining In-Reply-To: <56ef1196.4d42620a.3a852.ffffe646@mx.google.com> References: <56ef1196.4d42620a.3a852.ffffe646@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2018342956.1614951.1458509562186.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I ?want to drill and tap a 1\2 inch fine thread hole in my sphere. ?The penetrator has the o-ring grove ?in it, so the sphere needs a flat spot for the o-ring to sit on and the flat spot needs to be square to the bore.Hank On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:10 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv3091486894 #yiv3091486894 -- _filtered #yiv3091486894 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3091486894 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3091486894 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3091486894 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv3091486894 #yiv3091486894 p.yiv3091486894MsoNormal, #yiv3091486894 li.yiv3091486894MsoNormal, #yiv3091486894 div.yiv3091486894MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3091486894 a:link, #yiv3091486894 span.yiv3091486894MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3091486894 a:visited, #yiv3091486894 span.yiv3091486894MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3091486894 p.yiv3091486894MsoAcetate, #yiv3091486894 li.yiv3091486894MsoAcetate, #yiv3091486894 div.yiv3091486894MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv3091486894 span.yiv3091486894EmailStyle17 {color:navy;}#yiv3091486894 span.yiv3091486894EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3091486894 span.yiv3091486894BalloonTextChar {}#yiv3091486894 .yiv3091486894MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv3091486894 {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}#yiv3091486894 div.yiv3091486894WordSection1 {}#yiv3091486894 Hank, There is a unimill but you are light on details.? What size hole and what size o?ring groove and what diameter etc ?Hugh ? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, 21 March 2016 9:57 a.m. To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining ?Hi Hank, ?The tool does not exist. A profiled drill could do the job. Maybe you can use a drill that is meant for allen screw pot holes. ?Emile ?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zondag 20 maart 2016 20:00 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining ?Hi All,I need machining info, I am looking for a tool (drill?) ?that can drill a hole and make a o- ring seat at the same time. ?Is there such a tool or do I make one?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 20 17:42:52 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 08:42:52 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining In-Reply-To: <2018342956.1614951.1458509562186.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <56ef1196.4d42620a.3a852.ffffe646@mx.google.com> <2018342956.1614951.1458509562186.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Try doing a Google search for "combination drill spot facing tool" or something like that - a couple of likely looking things came up. Cheers, Steve On 21 Mar 2016 8:36 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I want to drill and tap a 1\2 inch fine thread hole in my sphere. The > penetrator has the o-ring grove in it, so the sphere needs a flat spot for > the o-ring to sit on and the flat spot needs to be square to the bore. > Hank > > > On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:10 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank, There is a unimill but you are light on details. What size hole and > what size o?ring groove and what diameter etc > > Hugh > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Emile van Essen > via Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Monday, 21 March 2016 9:57 a.m. > *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining > > Hi Hank, > > The tool does not exist. A profiled drill could do the job. Maybe you can > use a drill that is meant for allen screw pot holes. > > Emile > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [ > mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org > ] *Namens *hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > *Verzonden:* zondag 20 maart 2016 20:00 > *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining > > Hi All, > I need machining info, I am looking for a tool (drill?) that can drill a > hole and make a o- ring seat at the same time. Is there such a tool or do > I make one? > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 20 17:47:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 21:47:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining In-Reply-To: <2018342956.1614951.1458509562186.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2018342956.1614951.1458509562186.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <777399835.1612469.1458510442964.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I could machine a shaft with a shoulder on it to fit the threaded ?hole nice snug, then use the shoulder to make a mark ?on the hull to file an area for the o-ring to sit on. ? I can try out my prussian blue paste stuff ;-)Hank On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:35 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I ?want to drill and tap a 1\2 inch fine thread hole in my sphere. ?The penetrator has the o-ring grove ?in it, so the sphere needs a flat spot for the o-ring to sit on and the flat spot needs to be square to the bore.Hank On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:10 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv0002968357 -- filtered {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}#yiv0002968357 filtered {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}#yiv0002968357 filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv0002968357 filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv0002968357 p.yiv0002968357MsoNormal, #yiv0002968357 li.yiv0002968357MsoNormal, #yiv0002968357 div.yiv0002968357MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0002968357 a:link, #yiv0002968357 span.yiv0002968357MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0002968357 a:visited, #yiv0002968357 span.yiv0002968357MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0002968357 p.yiv0002968357MsoAcetate, #yiv0002968357 li.yiv0002968357MsoAcetate, #yiv0002968357 div.yiv0002968357MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv0002968357 span.yiv0002968357EmailStyle17 {color:navy;}#yiv0002968357 span.yiv0002968357EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0002968357 span.yiv0002968357BalloonTextChar {}#yiv0002968357 .yiv0002968357MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv0002968357 filtered {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}#yiv0002968357 div.yiv0002968357WordSection1 {}#yiv0002968357 Hank, There is a unimill but you are light on details.? What size hole and what size o?ring groove and what diameter etc ?Hugh ? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Emile van Essen via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, 21 March 2016 9:57 a.m. To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining ?Hi Hank, ?The tool does not exist. A profiled drill could do the job. Maybe you can use a drill that is meant for allen screw pot holes. ?Emile ?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zondag 20 maart 2016 20:00 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] machining ?Hi All,I need machining info, I am looking for a tool (drill?) ?that can drill a hole and make a o- ring seat at the same time. ?Is there such a tool or do I make one?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 20 17:51:49 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 21:51:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <902002437.446944.1458510709924.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Steve,Here is the tool I need, perfect! ?now I can look for one.Hank On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:50 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gandtrack.co.uk/images/back-spot-face-cutter-1.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.gandtrack.com/products/back-spot-face-cutters&docid=cHlyzH-_dmgKYM&tbnid=6Xe80KbEvs1MrM:&w=600&h=310&client=safari&ei=4RrvVpWwKMODmQGTxIX4BA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-03-20 at 3.49 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 20 18:30:02 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:30:02 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <902002437.446944.1458510709924.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <902002437.446944.1458510709924.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Excellent, much easier to use an existing tool than make one - but I remain sceptical you can be bothered waiting for it to arrive :) On 21 Mar 2016 8:55 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Steve, > Here is the tool I need, perfect! now I can look for one. > Hank > > > On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:50 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > > https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gandtrack.co.uk/images/back-spot-face-cutter-1.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.gandtrack.com/products/back-spot-face-cutters&docid=cHlyzH-_dmgKYM&tbnid=6Xe80KbEvs1MrM:&w=600&h=310&client=safari&ei=4RrvVpWwKMODmQGTxIX4BA > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Image 2016-03-20 at 3.49 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 20 18:40:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 22:40:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <349926576.1611406.1458513642956.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> A wise observation, I am not patient ;-)Hank On Sunday, March 20, 2016 4:30 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Excellent, much easier to use an existing tool than make one - but I remain sceptical you can be bothered waiting for it to arrive :)On 21 Mar 2016 8:55 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Thanks Steve,Here is the tool I need, perfect! ?now I can look for one.Hank On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:50 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gandtrack.co.uk/images/back-spot-face-cutter-1.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.gandtrack.com/products/back-spot-face-cutters&docid=cHlyzH-_dmgKYM&tbnid=6Xe80KbEvs1MrM:&w=600&h=310&client=safari&ei=4RrvVpWwKMODmQGTxIX4BA _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-03-20 at 3.49 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 20 18:50:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:50:38 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure compensating Message-ID: <774CB618-4B94-4E48-B426-0C355222FCA1@yahoo.com> Found this ex military 1977 document (290 pages) on pressure compensation for underwater apparatus. It fills in details that the Busby book doesn't cover. http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/894795.pdf Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 20 18:56:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:56:53 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: <902002437.446944.1458510709924.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56ef2a8f.890c620a.e04dc.fffffa1d@mx.google.com> Hank you can get a counterbore if it is the right size. They have a spigot for doing flat spots. They are used for doing a bore for capscrew heads and are a common tool. If you are using them with a hand drill there is a potential for them to chatter but if you drill through a rag it stops the chatter and gives you a good finish. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, 21 March 2016 11:30 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Excellent, much easier to use an existing tool than make one - but I remain sceptical you can be bothered waiting for it to arrive :) On 21 Mar 2016 8:55 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Thanks Steve, Here is the tool I need, perfect! now I can look for one. Hank On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:50 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gandtrack.co.uk/images/back-spot-face-cutter-1.jpg &imgrefurl=https://www.gandtrack.com/products/back-spot-face-cutters&docid=cHlyzH-_dmgKYM&tbnid=6Xe80KbEvs1MrM:&w=600&h=310&client=safari&ei=4RrvVpWwKMODmQGTxIX4BA _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 20 19:00:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 23:00:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <56ef2a8f.890c620a.e04dc.fffffa1d@mx.google.com> References: <56ef2a8f.890c620a.e04dc.fffffa1d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1805070232.1621960.1458514805559.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks' Hugh On Sunday, March 20, 2016 4:56 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv8234725359 #yiv8234725359 -- _filtered #yiv8234725359 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8234725359 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8234725359 {font-family:helveticaneue;}#yiv8234725359 #yiv8234725359 p.yiv8234725359MsoNormal, #yiv8234725359 li.yiv8234725359MsoNormal, #yiv8234725359 div.yiv8234725359MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8234725359 a:link, #yiv8234725359 span.yiv8234725359MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8234725359 a:visited, #yiv8234725359 span.yiv8234725359MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8234725359 p {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8234725359 span.yiv8234725359EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8234725359 .yiv8234725359MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv8234725359 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv8234725359 div.yiv8234725359WordSection1 {}#yiv8234725359 Hank you can get a counterbore if it is the right size.? They have a spigot for doing flat spots.? They are used for doing a bore for capscrew heads and are a common tool.If you are using them with a hand drill there is a potential for them to chatter but if you drill through a rag it stops the chatter and gives you a good finish. ?Hugh ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, 21 March 2016 11:30 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: ?Excellent, much easier to use an existing tool than make one - but I remain sceptical you can be bothered waiting for it to arrive :)On 21 Mar 2016 8:55 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" wrote:Thanks Steve,Here is the tool I need, perfect! ?now I can look for one.Hank ?On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:50 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: ?https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gandtrack.co.uk/images/back-spot-face-cutter-1.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.gandtrack.com/products/back-spot-face-cutters&docid=cHlyzH-_dmgKYM&tbnid=6Xe80KbEvs1MrM:&w=600&h=310&client=safari&ei=4RrvVpWwKMODmQGTxIX4BA ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 8860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 21 00:18:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 21:18:22 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure compensating In-Reply-To: <774CB618-4B94-4E48-B426-0C355222FCA1@yahoo.com> References: <774CB618-4B94-4E48-B426-0C355222FCA1@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009401d18328$b5c4f750$214ee5f0$@telus.net> Thanks, Alan. Good find. -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:51 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure compensating Found this ex military 1977 document (290 pages) on pressure compensation for underwater apparatus. It fills in details that the Busby book doesn't cover. http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/894795.pdf Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 21 01:00:36 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 18:00:36 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rotary Shaft Seal Selection Hand Book For Pressure Equalized Deep Ocean Equipment Message-ID: <8B2459D2-F3C1-4F48-98CE-F25B5956FA5E@yahoo.com> "But wait, there's more!" http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=AD0889330&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf Another de-classified document. This & the previous document should be on the psub site somewhere. It's hard to find detailed submarine specific information such as is contained here. It is amazing how well these people have documented the problems & solutions. Quite excited about these 2 documents. Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 21 06:49:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:49:48 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <902002437.446944.1458510709924.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <902002437.446944.1458510709924.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting tool. I didn't know such a thing existed... Took delivery of Scadoc 1000 on Friday. Temporary location while I get new workshop. ? On 20 March 2016 at 21:51, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Steve, > Here is the tool I need, perfect! now I can look for one. > Hank > > > On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:50 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > > https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gandtrack.co.uk/images/back-spot-face-cutter-1.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.gandtrack.com/products/back-spot-face-cutters&docid=cHlyzH-_dmgKYM&tbnid=6Xe80KbEvs1MrM:&w=600&h=310&client=safari&ei=4RrvVpWwKMODmQGTxIX4BA > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-03-20 at 3.49 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8860 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3380.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 240367 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 21 08:13:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:13:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <278072368.1879255.1458562388848.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> James,Looks great! ?nice tall CT and I can picture some nice ss full length MBT's down each side maybe a light weight deck across the hull and tanks. ?You will have the ultimate sub with the diesel engine. ? Have you been working out the mechanics of the engine install regarding exhaust and cooling ? ?Hank On Monday, March 21, 2016 4:49 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Interesting tool.? I didn't know such a thing existed...?Took delivery of Scadoc 1000 on Friday.? Temporary location while I get new workshop.? ??? On 20 March 2016 at 21:51, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Steve,Here is the tool I need, perfect! ?now I can look for one.Hank On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:50 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gandtrack.co.uk/images/back-spot-face-cutter-1.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.gandtrack.com/products/back-spot-face-cutters&docid=cHlyzH-_dmgKYM&tbnid=6Xe80KbEvs1MrM:&w=600&h=310&client=safari&ei=4RrvVpWwKMODmQGTxIX4BA _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3380.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 240367 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2016-03-20 at 3.49 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 21 08:56:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:56:30 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <278072368.1879255.1458562388848.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <278072368.1879255.1458562388848.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Yes, its considerably bigger inside. Its only 80mm bigger ID but it makes a lot of difference. Plus its nearly twice as long as the K. I spent half an hour or so sat inside dreaming of the things to be done... But I haven't given it much thought yet. I just wanted to get the boat in stock. I am working now on getting a new workshop. But yes, there will be enclosed full length MBT's. Cooling inlet should be easy enough, but the exhaust is going to need some thought, as is the fuel tank. But first things first. I am now looking for an overhead crane or RSJ's to make one. And a new lathe. On 21 March 2016 at 12:13, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, > Looks great! nice tall CT and I can picture some nice ss full length > MBT's down each side maybe a light weight deck across the hull and tanks. > You will have the ultimate sub with the diesel engine. Have you been > working out the mechanics of the engine install regarding exhaust and > cooling ? > Hank > > > On Monday, March 21, 2016 4:49 AM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Interesting tool. I didn't know such a thing existed... > > Took delivery of Scadoc 1000 on Friday. Temporary location while I get > new workshop. > > > ? > > > > On 20 March 2016 at 21:51, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Steve, > Here is the tool I need, perfect! now I can look for one. > Hank > > > On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:50 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > > https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gandtrack.co.uk/images/back-spot-face-cutter-1.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.gandtrack.com/products/back-spot-face-cutters&docid=cHlyzH-_dmgKYM&tbnid=6Xe80KbEvs1MrM:&w=600&h=310&client=safari&ei=4RrvVpWwKMODmQGTxIX4BA > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: IMG_3380.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 240367 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 21 20:51:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 00:51:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <56ef2a8f.890c620a.e04dc.fffffa1d@mx.google.com> References: <56ef2a8f.890c620a.e04dc.fffffa1d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1402105346.2252664.1458607868594.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hugh,I never heard about drilling through a rag? ?tell me more.Hank On Sunday, March 20, 2016 4:56 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv9491477307 #yiv9491477307 -- _filtered #yiv9491477307 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9491477307 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9491477307 {font-family:helveticaneue;}#yiv9491477307 #yiv9491477307 p.yiv9491477307MsoNormal, #yiv9491477307 li.yiv9491477307MsoNormal, #yiv9491477307 div.yiv9491477307MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9491477307 a:link, #yiv9491477307 span.yiv9491477307MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9491477307 a:visited, #yiv9491477307 span.yiv9491477307MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9491477307 p {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9491477307 span.yiv9491477307EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9491477307 .yiv9491477307MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv9491477307 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv9491477307 div.yiv9491477307WordSection1 {}#yiv9491477307 Hank you can get a counterbore if it is the right size.? They have a spigot for doing flat spots.? They are used for doing a bore for capscrew heads and are a common tool.If you are using them with a hand drill there is a potential for them to chatter but if you drill through a rag it stops the chatter and gives you a good finish. ?Hugh ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, 21 March 2016 11:30 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: ?Excellent, much easier to use an existing tool than make one - but I remain sceptical you can be bothered waiting for it to arrive :)On 21 Mar 2016 8:55 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" wrote:Thanks Steve,Here is the tool I need, perfect! ?now I can look for one.Hank ?On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:50 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: ?https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gandtrack.co.uk/images/back-spot-face-cutter-1.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.gandtrack.com/products/back-spot-face-cutters&docid=cHlyzH-_dmgKYM&tbnid=6Xe80KbEvs1MrM:&w=600&h=310&client=safari&ei=4RrvVpWwKMODmQGTxIX4BA ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 8860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 21 21:18:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 14:18:57 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1402105346.2252664.1458607868594.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <56ef2a8f.890c620a.e04dc.fffffa1d@mx.google.com> <1402105346.2252664.1458607868594.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56f09d4b.0b13620a.bf97b.3541@mx.google.com> Hank, Old machining trick. IF you are getting chatter when drilling and want a good surface finish on a taper such as a countersink or a flat bottom then get a piece of rag a couple of thicknesses and a bit bigger than the hole and just drill or countersink or whatever straight through the rag and it tends to fill the cavities and give a bit of back pressure to the tool. Try it. Other than that grinding the tool so when you feed it in it is resting on the back of the flank and it self supports. Too many people have too great a clearance on the back edge of a drill point or tool. On a lathe you can also raise the tool center height a gnat and it will rest on the clearance. Cheers Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 22 March 2016 1:51 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Hugh, I never heard about drilling through a rag? tell me more. Hank On Sunday, March 20, 2016 4:56 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank you can get a counterbore if it is the right size. They have a spigot for doing flat spots. They are used for doing a bore for capscrew heads and are a common tool. If you are using them with a hand drill there is a potential for them to chatter but if you drill through a rag it stops the chatter and gives you a good finish. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, 21 March 2016 11:30 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Excellent, much easier to use an existing tool than make one - but I remain sceptical you can be bothered waiting for it to arrive :) On 21 Mar 2016 8:55 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Thanks Steve, Here is the tool I need, perfect! now I can look for one. Hank On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:50 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gandtrack.co.uk/images/back-spot-face-cutter-1.jpg &imgrefurl=https://www.gandtrack.com/products/back-spot-face-cutters&docid=cHlyzH-_dmgKYM&tbnid=6Xe80KbEvs1MrM:&w=600&h=310&client=safari&ei=4RrvVpWwKMODmQGTxIX4BA _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 08:18:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 12:18:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <56f09d4b.0b13620a.bf97b.3541@mx.google.com> References: <56f09d4b.0b13620a.bf97b.3541@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1621775475.2434510.1458649088347.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hugh,Thanks' for the tip, gotta wonder how someone figured that out.?Hank On Monday, March 21, 2016 7:18 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv4665250844 #yiv4665250844 -- _filtered #yiv4665250844 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4665250844 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4665250844 {font-family:helveticaneue;}#yiv4665250844 #yiv4665250844 p.yiv4665250844MsoNormal, #yiv4665250844 li.yiv4665250844MsoNormal, #yiv4665250844 div.yiv4665250844MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv4665250844 a:link, #yiv4665250844 span.yiv4665250844MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4665250844 a:visited, #yiv4665250844 span.yiv4665250844MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4665250844 p {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv4665250844 p.yiv4665250844MsoAcetate, #yiv4665250844 li.yiv4665250844MsoAcetate, #yiv4665250844 div.yiv4665250844MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv4665250844 p.yiv4665250844msonormal, #yiv4665250844 li.yiv4665250844msonormal, #yiv4665250844 div.yiv4665250844msonormal {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv4665250844 span.yiv4665250844msohyperlink {}#yiv4665250844 span.yiv4665250844msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv4665250844 span.yiv4665250844emailstyle18 {}#yiv4665250844 p.yiv4665250844msonormal1, #yiv4665250844 li.yiv4665250844msonormal1, #yiv4665250844 div.yiv4665250844msonormal1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv4665250844 span.yiv4665250844msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4665250844 span.yiv4665250844msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4665250844 span.yiv4665250844emailstyle181 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv4665250844 span.yiv4665250844EmailStyle26 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv4665250844 span.yiv4665250844BalloonTextChar {}#yiv4665250844 .yiv4665250844MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv4665250844 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv4665250844 div.yiv4665250844WordSection1 {}#yiv4665250844 Hank,Old machining trick.? IF you are getting chatter when drilling and want a good surface finish on a taper such as a countersink or a flat bottom then get a piece of rag a couple of thicknesses and a bit bigger than the hole and just drill or countersink or whatever straight through the rag and it tends to fill the cavities and give a bit of back pressure to the tool.? Try it. Other than that grinding the tool so when you feed it in it is resting on the back of the flank and it self supports.? Too many people have too great a clearance on the back edge of a drill point or tool.? On a lathe you can also raise the tool center height a gnat and it will rest on the clearance.Cheers Hugh ? ? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 22 March 2016 1:51 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: ?Hugh,I never heard about drilling through a rag? ?tell me more.Hank ?On Sunday, March 20, 2016 4:56 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank you can get a counterbore if it is the right size.? They have a spigot for doing flat spots.? They are used for doing a bore for capscrew heads and are a common tool.If you are using them with a hand drill there is a potential for them to chatter but if you drill through a rag it stops the chatter and gives you a good finish.?Hugh?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, 21 March 2016 11:30 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw:?Excellent, much easier to use an existing tool than make one - but I remain sceptical you can be bothered waiting for it to arrive :)On 21 Mar 2016 8:55 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" wrote:Thanks Steve,Here is the tool I need, perfect! ?now I can look for one.Hank?On Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:50 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote:?https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gandtrack.co.uk/images/back-spot-face-cutter-1.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.gandtrack.com/products/back-spot-face-cutters&docid=cHlyzH-_dmgKYM&tbnid=6Xe80KbEvs1MrM:&w=600&h=310&client=safari&ei=4RrvVpWwKMODmQGTxIX4BA ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 8860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 11:03:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 15:03:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin References: <971612542.401294.1458659039432.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <971612542.401294.1458659039432.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,When I built my hatch system, I built it so the hinge pin has moment in it so the o-ring would have full contact before the hatch was fully closed metal to metal.When I vacuum test it, the hatch is not perfectly even in the seat, or at least it seems like it. ?I am wondering if I should close the hatch with the o-ring out and the hatch perfectly positioned and then weld bushings to the hinge so the pin has no movement. ? Or should I leave it alone and expect that the external pressure will push the hatch into place? ?Hank Scott, did you notice if your hatch hinge has play? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 12:17:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:17:31 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin In-Reply-To: <971612542.401294.1458659039432.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <971612542.401294.1458659039432.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <971612542.401294.1458659039432.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What type of misalignment exists? Aren't you using a conical bearing face on your hatch? That should be self-centering. Sean On March 22, 2016 9:03:59 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi All,When I built my hatch system, I built it so the hinge pin has >moment in it so the o-ring would have full contact before the hatch was >fully closed metal to metal.When I vacuum test it, the hatch is not >perfectly even in the seat, or at least it seems like it. ?I am >wondering if I should close the hatch with the o-ring out and the hatch >perfectly positioned and then weld bushings to the hinge so the pin has >no movement. ? Or should I leave it alone and expect that the external >pressure will push the hatch into place? ?Hank >Scott, did you notice if your hatch hinge has play? > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 12:21:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:21:14 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin In-Reply-To: <971612542.401294.1458659039432.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <971612542.401294.1458659039432.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <971612542.401294.1458659039432.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank. I did exactly that. Locked the hatch shut dead tight and welded the hinges and brackets etc on with no leeway in the pin. When it was done, the hatch didn't close properly. I don't know why. I filed about 1mm off the hinge holes and then it closed. I don't seem to notice any play with the springs on and the hatch doesn't leak. Regards James On 22 March 2016 at 15:03, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > When I built my hatch system, I built it so the hinge pin has moment in it > so the o-ring would have full contact before the hatch was fully closed > metal to metal. > When I vacuum test it, the hatch is not perfectly even in the seat, or at > least it seems like it. I am wondering if I should close the hatch with > the o-ring out and the hatch perfectly positioned and then weld bushings to > the hinge so the pin has no movement. Or should I leave it alone and > expect that the external pressure will push the hatch into place? > Hank > > Scott, did you notice if your hatch hinge has play? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 12:27:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 09:27:24 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer Message-ID: <20160322092724.9B21DCDB@m0087793.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 12:44:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?UTF-8?Q?Lasse_Schmidt_Westr=C3=A9n?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:44:31 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer In-Reply-To: <20160322092724.9B21DCDB@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20160322092724.9B21DCDB@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: That?s supercool, maybe I should change mine as well, how much do they go for? I like the size of it. Cheers, Lasse 2016-03-22 17:27 GMT+01:00 Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > Hi All, Ordered my Newtrox O2 analyzer and cabin pressure gauges ! > Should be here any day ! > > http://nuytco.com/products/newtrox/ > > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- Lasse Schmidt Westr?n Upplevelsepresent.se 070-28 32 660 Upplevelser, events och kryssningar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 13:09:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:09:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer In-Reply-To: <20160322092724.9B21DCDB@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20160322092724.9B21DCDB@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: <274245961.2244682.1458666575348.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Very nice!Hank On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:27 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??? Ordered my Newtrox O2 analyzer and cabin pressure gauges !?? Should be here any day !?http://nuytco.com/products/newtrox/??Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 13:09:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:09:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1012808022.2642600.1458666590705.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean yes it is conical, but when I close it with the o-ring, it does not close tight metal to metal and with the play in the hinge I feel like it is not closing evenly when I do the vacuum test. ?I am probably worrying about nothing,?likely the hatch is not?completely seated metal to metal under vacuum. ?I am talking On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What type of misalignment exists? Aren't you using a conical bearing face on your hatch? That should be self-centering.Sean On March 22, 2016 9:03:59 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When I built my hatch system, I built it so the hinge pin has moment in it so the o-ring would have full contact before the hatch was fully closed metal to metal.When I vacuum test it, the hatch is not perfectly even in the seat, or at least it seems like it. ?I am wondering if I should close the hatch with the o-ring out and the hatch perfectly positioned and then weld bushings to the hinge so the pin has no movement. ? Or should I leave it alone and expect that the external pressure will push the hatch into place? ?Hank Scott, did you notice if your hatch hinge has play? Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 13:15:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:15:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin In-Reply-To: <1012808022.2642600.1458666590705.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1012808022.2642600.1458666590705.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <895499572.2719182.1458666956965.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Oops, I cut off my e mail. ?The amount it is off is maybe ?2 thousandths.Hank On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:13 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean yes it is conical, but when I close it with the o-ring, it does not close tight metal to metal and with the play in the hinge I feel like it is not closing evenly when I do the vacuum test. ?I am probably worrying about nothing,?likely the hatch is not?completely seated metal to metal under vacuum. ?I am talking On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What type of misalignment exists? Aren't you using a conical bearing face on your hatch? That should be self-centering.Sean On March 22, 2016 9:03:59 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When I built my hatch system, I built it so the hinge pin has moment in it so the o-ring would have full contact before the hatch was fully closed metal to metal.When I vacuum test it, the hatch is not perfectly even in the seat, or at least it seems like it. ?I am wondering if I should close the hatch with the o-ring out and the hatch perfectly positioned and then weld bushings to the hinge so the pin has no movement. ? Or should I leave it alone and expect that the external pressure will push the hatch into place? ?Hank Scott, did you notice if your hatch hinge has play? Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 13:52:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 12:52:58 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer Message-ID: <6u909jkd95lp3u3cw10ol6yb.1458669178259@email.android.com> I got one of the O2 analyzers as well. They are nice.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/22/2016 11:27 AM (GMT-06:00) To: PSubs Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer Hi All,??? Ordered my Newtrox O2 analyzer and cabin pressure gauges !?? Should be here any day !?http://nuytco.com/products/newtrox/??Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 13:54:16 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:54:16 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. Message-ID: <1458669256.7027.YahooMailMobile@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi all, How should I clean the O2 penetrator in my hull. It may have oil from chasing the threads after welding Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 13:59:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=AF=C2=BB=C2=BFAl_Secor?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:59:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. References: <946629211.2705257.1458669545559.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <946629211.2705257.1458669545559.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I O2 clean my dive gear with Simple Green...it's non-toxic. Al Secor -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/22/16, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. To: "personal_submersibles" Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2016, 1:54 PM Hi all, How should I clean the O2 penetrator in my hull. It may have oil from chasing the threads after welding Hank -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 14:10:43 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:10:43 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. Message-ID: Hank,I got my O2 inspector cert through TDI and I learned alot about it. There are tons of options*Blue Gold cleaner is a great option*Simple Green is a ok option*Dish soap (non lotion) is a ok option Best case senerio is to put it in a ultra sound machine, but you can manually clean it with a nylon brush first then a lint free rage. Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/22/2016 12:54 PM (GMT-06:00) To: personal_submersibles Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. Hi all, How should I clean the O2 penetrator in my hull. It may have oil from chasing the threads after welding Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 14:38:37 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 11:38:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer Message-ID: <20160322113837.86BF69EF@m0086238.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 14:42:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 11:42:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. Message-ID: <20160322114207.86BF6968@m0086238.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 14:54:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:54:35 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer Message-ID: <31dhng78ht5ps2tocljrb5l9.1458672875019@email.android.com> It is the Altimatser 2 with a new faceplate put on it. Alec and I have both made our own.?Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/22/2016 1:38 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer Lasse,?????????? Not cheap, but?with the Psubs discount :? $500.00 for O2 and $325.00? for the cabin pressure gauge.? But cheaper than your life !??? I like the dedicated purpose of the cabin pressure gauge?rather than a altimeter, I had trouble finding exactly what I wanted when looking at altimeters on Ebay.?Brian Cox --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Lasse Schmidt Westr?n via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:44:31 +0100 That?s supercool, maybe I should change mine as well, how much do they go for? I like the size of it. Cheers, Lasse 2016-03-22 17:27 GMT+01:00 Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles : Hi All,??? Ordered my Newtrox O2 analyzer and cabin pressure gauges !?? Should be here any day !?http://nuytco.com/products/newtrox/??Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Lasse Schmidt Westr?n Upplevelsepresent.se 070-28 32 660 Upplevelser, events och kryssningar. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 15:40:41 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?UTF-8?Q?Lasse_Schmidt_Westr=C3=A9n?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:40:41 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer In-Reply-To: <20160322113837.86BF69EF@m0086238.ppops.net> References: <20160322113837.86BF69EF@m0086238.ppops.net> Message-ID: Thanks Brian, Still affordable for a good piece of equipment, I'll sleep on it. /Lasse tisdag 22 mars 2016 skrev Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > Lasse, Not cheap, but with the Psubs discount : $500.00 for O2 > and $325.00 for the cabin pressure gauge. But cheaper than your life ! > I like the dedicated purpose of the cabin pressure gauge rather than a > altimeter, I had trouble finding exactly what I wanted when looking at > altimeters on Ebay. > > Brian Cox > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: > > From: Lasse Schmidt Westr?n via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer > Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:44:31 +0100 > > That?s supercool, maybe I should change mine as well, how much do they go > for? I like the size of it. > > Cheers, Lasse > > 2016-03-22 17:27 GMT+01:00 Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >: > > Hi All, Ordered my Newtrox O2 analyzer and cabin pressure gauges ! > Should be here any day ! > > http://nuytco.com/products/newtrox/ > > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -- > Lasse Schmidt Westr?n > Upplevelsepresent.se > 070-28 32 660 > > > Upplevelser, events och kryssningar. > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Lasse Schmidt Westr?n Upplevelsepresent.se 070-28 32 660 Upplevelser, events och kryssningar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 15:48:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:48:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer In-Reply-To: <20160322092724.9B21DCDB@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20160322092724.9B21DCDB@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: <362241001.3432602.1458676137719.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,are you purchasing their O2 add system as well?Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:27 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer Hi All,??? Ordered my Newtrox O2 analyzer and cabin pressure gauges !?? Should be here any day !?http://nuytco.com/products/newtrox/??Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 15:53:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:53:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <436702390.2745885.1458676431846.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thank you guys, this group rocks!Scott the penetrator is welded into the hull, it is 2 inches thick treaded from both sides, so can't go in a ultrasound machine. ?I was going to run dish soap through it and follow up with cue tips. ?So you confirmed it will be okay. ?Brian, yes I will get the book, good idea.Hank On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:11 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I got my O2 inspector cert through TDI and I learned alot about it. There are tons of options*Blue Gold cleaner is a great option*Simple Green is a ok option*Dish soap (non lotion) is a ok option Best case senerio is to put it in a ultra sound machine, but you can manually clean it with a nylon brush first then a lint free rage. Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/22/2016 12:54 PM (GMT-06:00) To: personal_submersibles Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. | Hi all, How should I clean the O2 penetrator in my hull. It may have oil from chasing the threads after welding Hank | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 15:56:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:56:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thruster vacuum fill References: <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Guys, I was wondering if anyone has looked at vacuum filling thruster motors. ?I saw a tv program about building ROV's and that is what they did. ?We could put the thruster motors in our pressure chambers full of oil and suck the air out. ?That may be the solution to that pesky bit of water that gets in.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 16:24:39 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:24:39 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thruster vacuum fill In-Reply-To: <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1B8960BB-3750-4610-AA7C-FFA26A99AECA@yahoo.com> Hank, the documents I gave links to on compensating systems, & seals for oil compensated deep sea systems, mentioned this. It depends on what type of seal you are using & the orientation of them, as you can damage seals by putting a pressure on the wrong side. Have had those documents printed & bound:) Alan Sent from my iPad > On 23/03/2016, at 8:56 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Guys, I was wondering if anyone has looked at vacuum filling thruster motors. I saw a tv program about building ROV's and that is what they did. We could put the thruster motors in our pressure chambers full of oil and suck the air out. That may be the solution to that pesky bit of water that gets in. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 16:28:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:28:38 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer Message-ID: <20160322132838.9B21FC11@m0087793.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 16:47:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:47:48 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer In-Reply-To: <20160322132838.9B21FC11@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20160322132838.9B21FC11@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: Yes, the bellows add. I remember on the last Nuytco tour that Phil said it was available for sale to psubbers. Just love getting those items in the post, it's better than a birthday. at least you get what you want. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 23/03/2016, at 9:28 am, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, The bellows add? no, maybe later I might try to incorporate something like that, for now just going to be bleeding in through a flow meter. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer > Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:48:57 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > are you purchasing their O2 add system as well? > Alan > > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: PSubs > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:27 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 analyzer > > Hi All, Ordered my Newtrox O2 analyzer and cabin pressure gauges ! Should be here any day ! > > http://nuytco.com/products/newtrox/ > > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 18:07:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:07:15 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. Message-ID: Hank,You can't use cue tips. They will leave lint behind. You need to use lint free towels or swabs.?Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/22/2016 2:53 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. Thank you guys, this group rocks!Scott the penetrator is welded into the hull, it is 2 inches thick treaded from both sides, so can't go in a ultrasound machine. ?I was going to run dish soap through it and follow up with cue tips. ?So you confirmed it will be okay. ?Brian, yes I will get the book, good idea.Hank On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:11 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I got my O2 inspector cert through TDI and I learned alot about it. There are tons of options*Blue Gold cleaner is a great option*Simple Green is a ok option*Dish soap (non lotion) is a ok option Best case senerio is to put it in a ultra sound machine, but you can manually clean it with a nylon brush first then a lint free rage. Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/22/2016 12:54 PM (GMT-06:00) To: personal_submersibles Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. Hi all, How should I clean the O2 penetrator in my hull. It may have oil from chasing the threads after welding Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 18:30:52 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:30:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1000165270.2819215.1458685852232.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Scott,Okay, good point, I will use lint free?something.Thanks'Hank On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 4:07 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,You can't use cue tips. They will leave lint behind. You need to use lint free towels or swabs.?Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/22/2016 2:53 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. Thank you guys, this group rocks!Scott the penetrator is welded into the hull, it is 2 inches thick treaded from both sides, so can't go in a ultrasound machine. ?I was going to run dish soap through it and follow up with cue tips. ?So you confirmed it will be okay. ?Brian, yes I will get the book, good idea.Hank On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:11 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I got my O2 inspector cert through TDI and I learned alot about it. There are tons of options*Blue Gold cleaner is a great option*Simple Green is a ok option*Dish soap (non lotion) is a ok option Best case senerio is to put it in a ultra sound machine, but you can manually clean it with a nylon brush first then a lint free rage. Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 03/22/2016 12:54 PM (GMT-06:00) To: personal_submersibles Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. | Hi all, How should I clean the O2 penetrator in my hull. It may have oil from chasing the threads after welding Hank | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 19:35:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:35:12 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. In-Reply-To: <1000165270.2819215.1458685852232.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1000165270.2819215.1458685852232.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi guys, +1 for the oxy hackers guide, it's great and highly practical (I stock and sell them down under). I can recommend a toothbrush if it will fit or a smaller cylindrical brush. Tapping oil can be quite hard to fully clean off and may take a few goes - smelling it after the washing is a good reality check, there should be minimal odour. Cheers, Steve On 23 Mar 2016 9:34 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Scott, > Okay, good point, I will use lint free something. > Thanks' > Hank > > > On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 4:07 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hank, > You can't use cue tips. They will leave lint behind. You need to use lint > free towels or swabs. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: 03/22/2016 2:53 PM (GMT-06:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. > > Thank you guys, this group rocks! > Scott the penetrator is welded into the hull, it is 2 inches thick treaded > from both sides, so can't go in a ultrasound machine. I was going to run > dish soap through it and follow up with cue tips. So you confirmed it will > be okay. > Brian, yes I will get the book, good idea. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:11 PM, Scott Waters via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > I got my O2 inspector cert through TDI and I learned alot about it. There > are tons of options > *Blue Gold cleaner is a great option > *Simple Green is a ok option > *Dish soap (non lotion) is a ok option > > Best case senerio is to put it in a ultra sound machine, but you can > manually clean it with a nylon brush first then a lint free rage. > > Thank you, > Scott Waters > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: 03/22/2016 12:54 PM (GMT-06:00) > To: personal_submersibles > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. > > Hi all, How should I clean the O2 penetrator in my hull. It may have oil > from chasing the threads after welding > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 20:12:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 18:12:38 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. In-Reply-To: References: <1000165270.2819215.1458685852232.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: When O2 cleaning anything I usually use a black light to check. Hydrocarbons will fluoresce, so check your rinse water / rags with a black light until they come back clean. Sean On March 22, 2016 5:35:12 PM MDT, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi guys, >+1 for the oxy hackers guide, it's great and highly practical (I stock >and >sell them down under). > >I can recommend a toothbrush if it will fit or a smaller cylindrical >brush. > >Tapping oil can be quite hard to fully clean off and may take a few >goes - >smelling it after the washing is a good reality check, there should be >minimal odour. > >Cheers, >Steve >On 23 Mar 2016 9:34 am, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Scott, >> Okay, good point, I will use lint free something. >> Thanks' >> Hank >> >> >> On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 4:07 PM, Scott Waters via >Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> You can't use cue tips. They will leave lint behind. You need to use >lint >> free towels or swabs. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Date: 03/22/2016 2:53 PM (GMT-06:00) >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. >> >> Thank you guys, this group rocks! >> Scott the penetrator is welded into the hull, it is 2 inches thick >treaded >> from both sides, so can't go in a ultrasound machine. I was going to >run >> dish soap through it and follow up with cue tips. So you confirmed >it will >> be okay. >> Brian, yes I will get the book, good idea. >> Hank >> >> >> On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:11 PM, Scott Waters via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> I got my O2 inspector cert through TDI and I learned alot about it. >There >> are tons of options >> *Blue Gold cleaner is a great option >> *Simple Green is a ok option >> *Dish soap (non lotion) is a ok option >> >> Best case senerio is to put it in a ultra sound machine, but you can >> manually clean it with a nylon brush first then a lint free rage. >> >> Thank you, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Date: 03/22/2016 12:54 PM (GMT-06:00) >> To: personal_submersibles >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 cleaning. >> >> Hi all, How should I clean the O2 penetrator in my hull. It may have >oil >> from chasing the threads after welding >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 20:35:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:35:05 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thruster vacuum fill In-Reply-To: <1B8960BB-3750-4610-AA7C-FFA26A99AECA@yahoo.com> References: <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1B8960BB-3750-4610-AA7C-FFA26A99AECA@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi guys, I've got a reasonable working knowledge of vacuum from being involved with design and fabrication of vacuum-insulated pipes and vessels for cryogenic fluids, and have a couple of comments on this: 1. I'm missing how it will help having vacuum in a pod when you are at depth. Ie. there is still a very large pressure on the outside trying to get in (in fact, even more than if the inside was at ambient). 2. There's a potential benefit from vacuuming the pod before filling with oil (ie. pull a vacuum, then release the vacuum with oil) as it means there will be no possibility of condensation from any remaining air, and oil will fill all the spaces where air might otherwise get trapped. Realistically, the amount of moisture you'd save from the air would be pretty negligible, possibly the removal of airspace will help with preventing water leaks from the outside. 3. Vacuuming the pod with oil or water in it may have weird effects. Ie. water will boil (creating residue buildup from salt, tannins, or whatever else was dissolved in it). Oil will also evaporate/boil, to a much lesser extent, but the thin oil typically used for compensating will probably evaporate quite significantly under vacuum for long periods. Cheers, Steve On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, > the documents I gave links to on compensating systems, & seals for > oil compensated deep sea systems, mentioned this. > It depends on what type of seal you are using & the orientation of them, > as you can damage seals by putting a pressure on the wrong side. > Have had those documents printed & bound:) > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 23/03/2016, at 8:56 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Guys, I was wondering if anyone has looked at vacuum filling thruster > motors. I saw a tv program about building ROV's and that is what they > did. We could put the thruster motors in our pressure chambers full of oil > and suck the air out. That may be the solution to that pesky bit of water > that gets in. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 21:23:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 21:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ships hatch Message-ID: <34840b2b.1a9e4.153a11200de.Webtop.36@optonline.net> Hank: ? You mentioned in a earlier post that your hatch was 2' thick. What is the diameter and how much does it weigh? How do you open it? Do you have a torsion spring or is?it hydraulically operated. ? I have two 26' diameter 1' thick access hatches each weighing in at 200 lbs. each I had a torsion spring made, rated at 2100 inch lbs. to provide a lift assist of about 160 lbs. its not enough. ? Any suggestions anyone. ? John K. (203) 414-1000 From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 22 23:24:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 21:24:54 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin In-Reply-To: <895499572.2719182.1458666956965.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1012808022.2642600.1458666590705.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <895499572.2719182.1458666956965.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8134122b-360a-4fc2-a1b6-ae3580868990@email.android.com> What is off? O-ring groove / seat parallelism (hatch angle)? Or radial position (concentricity)? Are you dogging it first? Dogging is intended to create the initial recommended O-ring squeeze to create an effective seal at low pressure differentials, before increased external pressure takes over at depth and squeezes them down to the maximum design squeeze when you have metal-to-metal contact at the face seal, loosening your dogs in the process. With a hinged hatch, the part of the O-ring that is radially closest to the hinge will make contact first, and begin to squeeze and support the weight of the hatch from that side first. It is possible that the entire weight of your hatch is fully supported by the force developed by less than the entire o-ring, such that the hinge side is squeezed and the far side is only just making contact. You can even that out by switching to a softer durometer ring, or simply dog the hatch to ensure the minimum necessary squeeze on the far side of the ring. You can test if it lines up under increased pressure by piling a bunch of weight on it. You want the hatch to go metal-to-metal as soon as possible, as this eliminates any possible extrusion path for the O-ring (face seals are zero clearance). A softer ring will make this easier, but is also more prone to extrusion before the gap can be closed. What is your design squeeze at fully closed? Sean On March 22, 2016 11:15:56 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Oops, I cut off my e mail. ?The amount it is off is maybe ?2 >thousandths.Hank > >On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:13 AM, hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Sean yes it is conical, but when I close it with the o-ring, it does >not close tight metal to metal and with the play in the hinge I feel >like it is not closing evenly when I do the vacuum test. ?I am probably >worrying about nothing,?likely the hatch is not?completely seated metal >to metal under vacuum. ?I am talking > > > >On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >What type of misalignment exists? Aren't you using a conical bearing >face on your hatch? That should be self-centering.Sean > > >On March 22, 2016 9:03:59 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Hi All,When I built my hatch system, I built it so the hinge pin has >moment in it so the o-ring would have full contact before the hatch was >fully closed metal to metal.When I vacuum test it, the hatch is not >perfectly even in the seat, or at least it seems like it. ?I am >wondering if I should close the hatch with the o-ring out and the hatch >perfectly positioned and then weld bushings to the hinge so the pin has >no movement. ? Or should I leave it alone and expect that the external >pressure will push the hatch into place? ?Hank >Scott, did you notice if your hatch hinge has play? >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 00:07:49 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 21:07:49 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin Message-ID: <20160322210749.5CE60E1B@m0087792.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 00:49:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:49:59 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin In-Reply-To: <20160322210749.5CE60E1B@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20160322210749.5CE60E1B@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: <56F22077.8080700@telus.net> I know that this particular rule is often voluntarily disregarded by hobbyists, but just FYI: ABS Rules for Building and Classing Underwater Vehicles, Systems and Hyperbaric Facilities (2016) Section 11 (Submersibles) Subsection 5 (Access Hatches) 5.3 (Operation): "All hatches are to be operable from both internal and external sides. Hatches should be designed to seat with pressure. Hatches that unseat with pressure will be considered based on the application of the unit. The means for opening and closing of hatches should permit operation by a single person under all anticipated operating and emergency conditions. Hatches are to have means for securing in the open and closed positions. Means are to be available to ensure that hatches are clear of water before opening. All hatches are to be considered when evaluating the surface stability of the submersible. See subsection 11/31." 5.5 (Pressure Equalization): "Means are to be provided for equalizing pressure on each side of a hatch prior to hatch opening. As an alternative, an absolute pressure indicator with means of adjusting the internal pressure on either side may be provided." Technically, to be in compliance you need to be able to cinch it down from the outside too. Gets to be a complicated mechanism though. Sean On 2016-03-22 22:07, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hank, can you cinch it down from the inside , obviously you would > have to be inside at the time, but you might be able to determine if > it is where you want it. > > Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 00:57:27 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:57:27 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thruster vacuum fill In-Reply-To: <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56F22237.2020501@telus.net> You mean pull a vacuum on the motor housing before admitting the compensating oil? That would certainly minimize the possibility of residual air bubbles, but with appropriate volume available in your compensator (to accommodate both compression of residual gas space, and thermal expansion / contraction), even that shouldn't be a problem, should it? Sean On 2016-03-22 13:56, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Guys, I was wondering if anyone has looked at vacuum filling thruster > motors. I saw a tv program about building ROV's and that is what they > did. We could put the thruster motors in our pressure chambers full > of oil and suck the air out. That may be the solution to that pesky > bit of water that gets in. > Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 01:29:19 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 05:29:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thruster vacuum fill In-Reply-To: <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <552901034.3881192.1458710959840.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,the Annapolis vacuum fill system for thrusters is documented in section 1V-4 (page 115)http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/894795.pdfAlan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:56 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thruster vacuum fill Guys, I was wondering if anyone has looked at vacuum filling thruster motors. ?I saw a tv program about building ROV's and that is what they did. ?We could put the thruster motors in our pressure chambers full of oil and suck the air out. ?That may be the solution to that pesky bit of water that gets in.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 08:30:16 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 12:30:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ships hatch In-Reply-To: <34840b2b.1a9e4.153a11200de.Webtop.36@optonline.net> References: <34840b2b.1a9e4.153a11200de.Webtop.36@optonline.net> Message-ID: <2008189269.3139674.1458736216668.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> John,My hatch dome is 1 inch thick with a 2 inch thick conical ring 2 inches wide. ?The weight is 130 lbs at 18 inches dia. ?I have incorporated one torsion spring but not sure if I will use it. ?It is?easy enough to lift open. ?You will need a heavier set of springs is all. ?Do you have clearance for thicker springs. ?I am using one spring only and it works well. ?My spring is from a trailer door or trailer ramp. ?Two of those would lift your hatch.Hank On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 7:24 PM, John Kammerer via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank: ? You mentioned in a earlier post that your hatch was 2' thick. What is the diameter and how much does it weigh? How do you open it? Do you have a torsion spring or is?it hydraulically operated. ? I have two 26' diameter 1' thick access hatches each weighing in at 200 lbs. each I had a torsion spring made, rated at 2100 inch lbs. to provide a lift assist of about 160 lbs. its not enough. ? Any suggestions anyone. ? John K. (203) 414-1000 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 08:39:30 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 12:39:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin In-Reply-To: <8134122b-360a-4fc2-a1b6-ae3580868990@email.android.com> References: <8134122b-360a-4fc2-a1b6-ae3580868990@email.android.com> Message-ID: <171678772.3151200.1458736770094.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,The hatch angle was sitting with a slight tilt to ons side, it was not dogged,the weight of the hatch is?sufficient to create the initial seal. ?If I have the spring in it will also cause the hatch to tilt a bit when it lands due to clearance in the hinge pin. ?I assumed the hatch would press itself into a correct position because it is conical. ?I need to do a bit more testing. ?Also the o-ring I ordered came to large so I am using ?a very old Gamma o-ring that is a bit hard from age. ?The vacuum test may not have pulled it all the way down because the o-ring is harder than normal.Hank On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 9:24 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What is off? O-ring groove / seat parallelism (hatch angle)? Or radial position (concentricity)? Are you dogging it first? Dogging is intended to create the initial recommended O-ring squeeze to create an effective seal at low pressure differentials, before increased external pressure takes over at depth and squeezes them down to the maximum design squeeze when you have metal-to-metal contact at the face seal, loosening your dogs in the process. With a hinged hatch, the part of the O-ring that is radially closest to the hinge will make contact first, and begin to squeeze and support the weight of the hatch from that side first. It is possible that the entire weight of your hatch is fully supported by the force developed by less than the entire o-ring, such that the hinge side is squeezed and the far side is only just making contact. You can even that out by switching to a softer durometer ring, or simply dog the hatch to ensure the minim! umnecessary squeeze on the far side of the ring. You can test if it lines up under increased pressure by piling a bunch of weight on it.You want the hatch to go metal-to-metal as soon as possible, as this eliminates any possible extrusion path for the O-ring (face seals are zero clearance). A softer ring will make this easier, but is also more prone to extrusion before the gap can be closed.? What is your design squeeze at fully closed?Sean On March 22, 2016 11:15:56 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oops, I cut off my e mail. ?The amount it is off is maybe ?2 thousandths.Hank On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:13 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean yes it is conical, but when I close it with the o-ring, it does not close tight metal to metal and with the play in the hinge I feel like it is not closing evenly when I do the vacuum test. ?I am probably worrying about nothing,?likely the hatch is not?completely seated metal to metal under vacuum. ?I am talking On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What type of misalignment exists? Aren't you using a conical bearing face on your h! atch?That should be self-centering.Sean On March 22, 2016 9:03:59 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When I built my hatch system, I built it so the hinge pin has moment in it so the o-ring would have full contact before the hatch was fully closed metal to metal.When I vacuum test it, the hatch is not perfectly even in the seat, or at least it seems like it. ?I am wondering if I should close the hatch with the o-ring out and the hatch perfectly positioned and then weld bushings to the hinge so the pin has no movement. ? Or should I leave it alone and expect that the external pressure will push the hatch into place? ?Hank Scott, did you notice if your hatch hinge has play? Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 11:17:14 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:17:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thruster vacuum fill In-Reply-To: References: <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1B8960BB-3750-4610-AA7C-FFA26A99AECA@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56F2B37A.9040803@psubs.org> I assumed Hank was suggesting the vacuum simply as a means of displacing air from the motor housing to achieve a complete filling of the cavity with oil. How would you seal the motor in this manner after all the cavity is filled with oil and you want to remove it from the vacuum chamber...a one way valve perhaps? Jon On 3/22/2016 8:35 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi guys, > I've got a reasonable working knowledge of vacuum from being involved > with design and fabrication of vacuum-insulated pipes and vessels for > cryogenic fluids, and have a couple of comments on this: > > 1. I'm missing how it will help having vacuum in a pod when you are at > depth. Ie. there is still a very large pressure on the outside trying > to get in (in fact, even more than if the inside was at ambient). > 2. There's a potential benefit from vacuuming the pod before filling > with oil (ie. pull a vacuum, then release the vacuum with oil) as it > means there will be no possibility of condensation from any remaining > air, and oil will fill all the spaces where air might otherwise get > trapped. Realistically, the amount of moisture you'd save from the > air would be pretty negligible, possibly the removal of airspace will > help with preventing water leaks from the outside. > 3. Vacuuming the pod with oil or water in it may have weird effects. > Ie. water will boil (creating residue buildup from salt, tannins, or > whatever else was dissolved in it). Oil will also evaporate/boil, to > a much lesser extent, but the thin oil typically used > for compensating will probably evaporate quite significantly under > vacuum for long periods. > > Cheers, > Steve > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 11:22:00 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:22:00 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thruster vacuum fill In-Reply-To: <56F2B37A.9040803@psubs.org> References: <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1B8960BB-3750-4610-AA7C-FFA26A99AECA@yahoo.com> <56F2B37A.9040803@psubs.org> Message-ID: <56F2B498.4030406@psubs.org> Hank, another question on this procedure...with the cavity filled with oil don't you still run into the issue of fluid expansion due to temperature rise either through operation or sitting in the hot sun for a few hours? Jon On 3/23/2016 11:17 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I assumed Hank was suggesting the vacuum simply as a means of > displacing air from the motor housing to achieve a complete filling of > the cavity with oil. How would you seal the motor in this manner > after all the cavity is filled with oil and you want to remove it from > the vacuum chamber...a one way valve perhaps? > > Jon > > > On 3/22/2016 8:35 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi guys, >> I've got a reasonable working knowledge of vacuum from being involved >> with design and fabrication of vacuum-insulated pipes and vessels for >> cryogenic fluids, and have a couple of comments on this: >> >> 1. I'm missing how it will help having vacuum in a pod when you are >> at depth. Ie. there is still a very large pressure on the outside >> trying to get in (in fact, even more than if the inside was at ambient). >> 2. There's a potential benefit from vacuuming the pod before filling >> with oil (ie. pull a vacuum, then release the vacuum with oil) as it >> means there will be no possibility of condensation from any remaining >> air, and oil will fill all the spaces where air might otherwise get >> trapped. Realistically, the amount of moisture you'd save from the >> air would be pretty negligible, possibly the removal of airspace will >> help with preventing water leaks from the outside. >> 3. Vacuuming the pod with oil or water in it may have weird effects. >> Ie. water will boil (creating residue buildup from salt, tannins, or >> whatever else was dissolved in it). Oil will also evaporate/boil, to >> a much lesser extent, but the thin oil typically used for >> compensating will probably evaporate quite significantly under vacuum >> for long periods. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 11:44:47 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:44:47 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thruster vacuum fill In-Reply-To: <56F2B498.4030406@psubs.org> References: <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1852303574.2751229.1458676617115.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1B8960BB-3750-4610-AA7C-FFA26A99AECA@yahoo.com> <56F2B37A.9040803@psubs.org> <56F2B498.4030406@psubs.org> Message-ID: <4edad850-2e0a-427d-99a3-7cf1198bb94f@email.android.com> The procedure in the linked document doesn't alleviate the need for volume compensation, but rather seems to be employed for the purpose of degassing the compensating oil (driving out dissolved oxygen), or replacing any such oxygen with nitrogen, prior to proper compensator fill and placement into service. I'm not sure why - perhaps the dissolved oxygen contributes to corrosion in the motor? Sean On March 23, 2016 9:22:00 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hank, another question on this procedure...with the cavity filled with >oil don't you still run into the issue of fluid expansion due to >temperature rise either through operation or sitting in the hot sun for > >a few hours? > >Jon > > >On 3/23/2016 11:17 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I assumed Hank was suggesting the vacuum simply as a means of >> displacing air from the motor housing to achieve a complete filling >of >> the cavity with oil. How would you seal the motor in this manner >> after all the cavity is filled with oil and you want to remove it >from >> the vacuum chamber...a one way valve perhaps? >> >> Jon >> >> >> On 3/22/2016 8:35 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles >wrote: >>> Hi guys, >>> I've got a reasonable working knowledge of vacuum from being >involved >>> with design and fabrication of vacuum-insulated pipes and vessels >for >>> cryogenic fluids, and have a couple of comments on this: >>> >>> 1. I'm missing how it will help having vacuum in a pod when you are >>> at depth. Ie. there is still a very large pressure on the outside >>> trying to get in (in fact, even more than if the inside was at >ambient). >>> 2. There's a potential benefit from vacuuming the pod before filling > >>> with oil (ie. pull a vacuum, then release the vacuum with oil) as it > >>> means there will be no possibility of condensation from any >remaining >>> air, and oil will fill all the spaces where air might otherwise get >>> trapped. Realistically, the amount of moisture you'd save from the >>> air would be pretty negligible, possibly the removal of airspace >will >>> help with preventing water leaks from the outside. >>> 3. Vacuuming the pod with oil or water in it may have weird effects. > >>> Ie. water will boil (creating residue buildup from salt, tannins, or > >>> whatever else was dissolved in it). Oil will also evaporate/boil, >to >>> a much lesser extent, but the thin oil typically used for >>> compensating will probably evaporate quite significantly under >vacuum >>> for long periods. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 11:43:32 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 15:43:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thruster vacuum fill In-Reply-To: <56F2B37A.9040803@psubs.org> References: <56F2B37A.9040803@psubs.org> Message-ID: <433014818.3183630.1458747812222.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,Yes correct, the idea is to evacuate the air from the pesky little voids trapping air. ?There would be no need worry about air re-entering the motor cavity after removing the motor from the oil filled ?vacuum chamber because the oil inside the motor is heavier than air. ?There would be a short clear tube connected to the motor to create a fill spot and high point. ?Hank On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:17 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I assumed Hank was suggesting the vacuum simply as a means of displacing air from the motor housing to achieve a complete filling of the cavity with oil.? How would you seal the motor in this manner after all the cavity is filled with oil and you want to remove it from the vacuum chamber...a one way valve perhaps? Jon On 3/22/2016 8:35 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi guys, > I've got a reasonable working knowledge of vacuum from being involved > with design and fabrication of vacuum-insulated pipes and vessels for > cryogenic fluids, and have a couple of comments on this: > > 1. I'm missing how it will help having vacuum in a pod when you are at > depth.? Ie. there is still a very large pressure on the outside trying > to get in (in fact, even more than if the inside was at ambient). > 2. There's a potential benefit from vacuuming the pod before filling > with oil (ie. pull a vacuum, then release the vacuum with oil) as it > means there will be no possibility of condensation from any remaining > air, and oil will fill all the spaces where air might otherwise get > trapped.? Realistically, the amount of moisture you'd save from the > air would be pretty negligible, possibly the removal of airspace will > help with preventing water leaks from the outside. > 3. Vacuuming the pod with oil or water in it may have weird effects.? > Ie. water will boil (creating residue buildup from salt, tannins, or > whatever else was dissolved in it).? Oil will also evaporate/boil, to > a much lesser extent, but the thin oil typically used > for compensating will probably evaporate quite significantly under > vacuum for long periods. > > Cheers, > Steve > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 12:35:05 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:35:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin Message-ID: <20160323093505.5CE67A3A@m0087792.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 12:41:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:41:08 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Depth sounder Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can get a depth sounder that reads 2000m??Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 13:37:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:37:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin In-Reply-To: <20160323093505.5CE67A3A@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20160323093505.5CE67A3A@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: <623747885.3281332.1458754671805.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I can tighten the hatch with my dogs-same as Gamma. ?It is?very simple, the dogs are flat pieces ground to a taper and they simply slide under the land ring. ?The more they?slide the tighter the hatch is. ?I can not cinch it metal to metal though from inside. ?I can pull a harder vacuum to test the alignment, I was just worried about some equipment inside being damaged from vacuum. ??The way it reads to me is that it does not need to be cinched from inside. ?It says "hatches are to be designed to seat with pressure" ?not by mechanical means. ?In the case of a sub with a dome sitting on a Aul ring acting as a hatch-the localized force of a hatch dog could bend the Aul ring if you were to try to cinch it down.Hank On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:35 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I seem to remember in some of those old WWII movies ( run silent, run deep) where the are diving ( dive, dive) and they have a line on the inside of the hatch that one guy is hanging on, to hold it down,, presumably until pressure builds up on the outside so it is secured by the pressure alone.? Then maybe?they worry about securing the hatch dogs .?? Of course they were in a bit of a panic in those situations .?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:49:59 -0600 I know that this particular rule is often voluntarily disregarded by hobbyists, but just FYI: ABS Rules for Building and Classing Underwater Vehicles, Systems and Hyperbaric Facilities (2016) Section 11 (Submersibles) Subsection 5 (Access Hatches) 5.3 (Operation): "All hatches are to be operable from both internal and external sides.? Hatches should be designed to seat with pressure.? Hatches that unseat with pressure will be considered based on the application of the unit.? The means for opening and closing of hatches should permit operation by a single person under all anticipated operating and emergency conditions.? Hatches are to have means for securing in the open and closed positions.? Means are to be available to ensure that hatches are clear of water before opening.? All hatches are to be considered when evaluating the surface stability of the submersible.? See subsection 11/31." 5.5 (Pressure Equalization): "Means are to be provided for equalizing pressure on each side of a hatch prior to hatch opening.? As an alternative, an absolute pressure indicator with means of adjusting the internal pressure on either side may be provided." Technically, to be in compliance you need to be able to cinch it down from the outside too.? Gets to be a complicated mechanism though. Sean On 2016-03-22 22:07, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, can you cinch it down from the inside ,? obviously you would have to be inside at the time, but you might be able to determine if it is where you want it. ? Brian _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 15:08:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:08:26 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin In-Reply-To: <20160323093505.5CE67A3A@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20160323093505.5CE67A3A@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: <3fa747a6-b9e5-4160-a103-978b5498abe0@email.android.com> Well, I guess technically that's "means for securing"... Sean On March 23, 2016 10:35:05 AM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I seem to remember in some of those old WWII movies ( run silent, run >deep) where the are diving ( dive, dive) and they have a line on the >inside of the hatch that one guy is hanging on, to hold it down,, >presumably until pressure builds up on the outside so it is secured by >the pressure alone. Then maybe they worry about securing the hatch >dogs . Of course they were in a bit of a panic in those situations . > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin >Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:49:59 -0600 > >I know that this particular rule is often voluntarily disregarded by >hobbyists, but just FYI: > >ABS Rules for Building and Classing Underwater Vehicles, Systems and >Hyperbaric Facilities (2016) >Section 11 (Submersibles) >Subsection 5 (Access Hatches) > >5.3 (Operation): > >"All hatches are to be operable from both internal and external sides. >Hatches should be designed to seat with pressure. Hatches that unseat >with pressure will be considered based on the application of the unit. >The means for opening and closing of hatches should permit operation by >a single person under all anticipated operating and emergency >conditions. Hatches are to have means for securing in the open and >closed positions. Means are to be available to ensure that hatches are >clear of water before opening. All hatches are to be considered when >evaluating the surface stability of the submersible. See subsection >11/31." > >5.5 (Pressure Equalization): > >"Means are to be provided for equalizing pressure on each side of a >hatch prior to hatch opening. As an alternative, an absolute pressure >indicator with means of adjusting the internal pressure on either side >may be provided." > > >Technically, to be in compliance you need to be able to cinch it down >from the outside too. Gets to be a complicated mechanism though. > >Sean > > >On 2016-03-22 22:07, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Hank, can you cinch it down from the inside , obviously you would have >to be inside at the time, but you might be able to determine if it is >where you want it. > > > >Brian > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 15:33:57 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 08:33:57 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin In-Reply-To: References: <971612542.401294.1458659039432.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <971612542.401294.1458659039432.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56f2ef62.2994420a.c4082.ffffd2b7@mx.google.com> James, I would be betting a penny to a pound that it is the contraction of the metal when you welded it and it will be pulling a bit. Easiest way to check is to take the pins out of the hinges and put the hatch in the closed position and see what the pin alignment looks like. You may be able to clamp in place and then put a reamer through and an oversize pin. Probably by this time you will have checked all that anyway. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 23 March 2016 5:21 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin Hank. I did exactly that. Locked the hatch shut dead tight and welded the hinges and brackets etc on with no leeway in the pin. When it was done, the hatch didn't close properly. I don't know why. I filed about 1mm off the hinge holes and then it closed. I don't seem to notice any play with the springs on and the hatch doesn't leak. Regards James On 22 March 2016 at 15:03, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, When I built my hatch system, I built it so the hinge pin has moment in it so the o-ring would have full contact before the hatch was fully closed metal to metal. When I vacuum test it, the hatch is not perfectly even in the seat, or at least it seems like it. I am wondering if I should close the hatch with the o-ring out and the hatch perfectly positioned and then weld bushings to the hinge so the pin has no movement. Or should I leave it alone and expect that the external pressure will push the hatch into place? Hank Scott, did you notice if your hatch hinge has play? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 18:44:40 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 22:44:40 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin In-Reply-To: <56f2ef62.2994420a.c4082.ffffd2b7@mx.google.com> References: <971612542.401294.1458659039432.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <971612542.401294.1458659039432.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56f2ef62.2994420a.c4082.ffffd2b7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Hugh. Yes, your probably right, but the hatch doesn't leak and never has, so I'm not going to fiddle with it...... Kind regards, James On Wednesday, 23 March 2016, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, > > I would be betting a penny to a pound that it is the contraction of the > metal when you welded it and it will be pulling a bit. Easiest way to > check is to take the pins out of the hinges and put the hatch in the closed > position and see what the pin alignment looks like. You may be able to > clamp in place and then put a reamer through and an oversize pin. Probably > by this time you will have checked all that anyway. Regards, Hugh > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org > ] > *On Behalf Of *James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 March 2016 5:21 a.m. > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin > > > > Hank. > > > > I did exactly that. Locked the hatch shut dead tight and welded the > hinges and brackets etc on with no leeway in the pin. When it was done, > the hatch didn't close properly. I don't know why. I filed about 1mm off > the hinge holes and then it closed. I don't seem to notice any play with > the springs on and the hatch doesn't leak. > > > Regards > > James > > > > On 22 March 2016 at 15:03, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > wrote: > > Hi All, > > When I built my hatch system, I built it so the hinge pin has moment in it > so the o-ring would have full contact before the hatch was fully closed > metal to metal. > > When I vacuum test it, the hatch is not perfectly even in the seat, or at > least it seems like it. I am wondering if I should close the hatch with > the o-ring out and the hatch perfectly positioned and then weld bushings to > the hinge so the pin has no movement. Or should I leave it alone and > expect that the external pressure will push the hatch into place? > > Hank > > > > Scott, did you notice if your hatch hinge has play? > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 19:57:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 16:57:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin Message-ID: <20160323165701.5CE70AA3@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 20:05:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 00:05:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin In-Reply-To: <20160323165701.5CE70AA3@m0087791.ppops.net> References: <20160323165701.5CE70AA3@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: <331208132.2351919.1458777944730.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,In my case the weight alone seals the hatch ;-) ? Hey how are you making out, how about some pictures, have you painted your sub?Hank On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:57 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,??????????? ?I was just referring to the issue of the hatch wanting to leak right at the surface before there is any pressure on it.? The Dogs should take care of that, unless there is some play there.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:37:51 +0000 (UTC) I can tighten the hatch with my dogs-same as Gamma. ?It is?very simple, the dogs are flat pieces ground to a taper and they simply slide under the land ring. ?The more they?slide the tighter the hatch is. ?I can not cinch it metal to metal though from inside. ?I can pull a harder vacuum to test the alignment, I was just worried about some equipment inside being damaged from vacuum. ??The way it reads to me is that it does not need to be cinched from inside. ?It says "hatches are to be designed to seat with pressure" ?not by mechanical means. ?In the case of a sub with a dome sitting on a Aul ring acting as a hatch-the localized force of a hatch dog could bend the Aul ring if you were to try to cinch it down.Hank On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:35 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I seem to remember in some of those old WWII movies ( run silent, run deep) where the are diving ( dive, dive) and they have a line on the inside of the hatch that one guy is hanging on, to hold it down,, presumably until pressure builds up on the outside so it is secured by the pressure alone.? Then maybe?they worry about securing the hatch dogs .?? Of course they were in a bit of a panic in those situations .?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:49:59 -0600 I know that this particular rule is often voluntarily disregarded by hobbyists, but just FYI: ABS Rules for Building and Classing Underwater Vehicles, Systems and Hyperbaric Facilities (2016) Section 11 (Submersibles) Subsection 5 (Access Hatches) 5.3 (Operation): "All hatches are to be operable from both internal and external sides.? Hatches should be designed to seat with pressure.? Hatches that unseat with pressure will be considered based on the application of the unit.? The means for opening and closing of hatches should permit operation by a single person under all anticipated operating and emergency conditions.? Hatches are to have means for securing in the open and closed positions.? Means are to be available to ensure that hatches are clear of water before opening.? All hatches are to be considered when evaluating the surface stability of the submersible.? See subsection 11/31." 5.5 (Pressure Equalization): "Means are to be provided for equalizing pressure on each side of a hatch prior to hatch opening.? As an alternative, an absolute pressure indicator with means of adjusting the internal pressure on either side may be provided." Technically, to be in compliance you need to be able to cinch it down from the outside too.? Gets to be a complicated mechanism though. Sean On 2016-03-22 22:07, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, can you cinch it down from the inside ,? obviously you would have to be inside at the time, but you might be able to determine if it is where you want it. ? Brian _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 20:12:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 00:12:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch spring References: <1010358746.3505153.1458778332417.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1010358746.3505153.1458778332417.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi John,I just measured my hatch spring and it is made from 3\8 steel and is 4.5 inches long and 2 inches OD . ? I had one of these springs on my K350 hatch and it was perfect. ?The K350 hatch is 80lb, so two of these should be perfect.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 20:12:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 00:12:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch spring References: <1010358746.3505153.1458778332417.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1010358746.3505153.1458778332417.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi John,I just measured my hatch spring and it is made from 3\8 steel and is 4.5 inches long and 2 inches OD . ? I had one of these springs on my K350 hatch and it was perfect. ?The K350 hatch is 80lb, so two of these should be perfect.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 23 21:53:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 18:53:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] hatch pin Message-ID: <20160323185342.5CE070A5@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 24 02:24:16 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 06:24:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster References: <227940402.4381417.1458800656212.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <227940402.4381417.1458800656212.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny.The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal.I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & difficult.The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is from a stock tubethat I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted on.Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? There is a sleevepress fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a jig to clamp it infor welding?The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over pressure above ambient. Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense against any leaks,& for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & have a double seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the oil in & with theinternal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should fail first as it is exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is oriented so that it keepsany water out that may get past the outboard seal. The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for collecting any water thatmay get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water sensor in there.Any comments welcome.Alanp.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motor cut away.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 61997 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 24 08:31:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 12:31:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <227940402.4381417.1458800656212.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <227940402.4381417.1458800656212.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <880462255.149500.1458822678752.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alan,It wouldn't hurt to clamp the end cap tight but you do have a nice shoulder for the end cap to sit on. ?Any time I make a part that can and usually does warp, I make it oversize and machine it true after welding. ?I am curious why you want to weld it-that big shoulder has room for an o-ring. ? I would also ditch the second seal-it is an air trap. ? ?Great project!Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 12:27 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny.The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal.I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & difficult.The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is from a stock tubethat I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted on.Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? There is a sleevepress fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a jig to clamp it infor welding?The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over pressure above ambient. Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense against any leaks,& for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & have a double seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the oil in & with theinternal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should fail first as it is exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is oriented so that it keepsany water out that may get past the outboard seal. The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for collecting any water thatmay get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water sensor in there.Any comments welcome.Alanp.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: motor cut away.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 61997 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 24 14:34:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 18:34:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <880462255.149500.1458822678752.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <227940402.4381417.1458800656212.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <880462255.149500.1458822678752.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <389077522.4870090.1458844452380.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,thanks for the advice.I thought that welding would be quicker & cheaper rather than cutting ?an o-ring groove& drilling & taping & recessing for 6 bolt holes. Also? a more smoother hydrodynamicfinish. I will be welding on the fins for the kort nozzle attachment so can do it all inone shot.??? I will probably add a fill port in to the top of the seal compartment to aid airremoval. Once there is oil in there the only way you would get air in would berunning it out of water?with some sort of reverse pumping action caused by the seal.?? The double seal arrangement I am copying? from that military document onsealing & compensation. However they use face seals. This thruster is so smallthat 2 face seals would take up too much space, so have doubled up on 2 lowpressure lip seals. In the pdf it makes a good case for the secondary seal & Iintend to do most of my diving in seawater where it is a more destructive environment.All the Minnkotas I have seen have 2 seals, I think just lip seals.Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hi Alan,It wouldn't hurt to clamp the end cap tight but you do have a nice shoulder for the end cap to sit on. ?Any time I make a part that can and usually does warp, I make it oversize and machine it true after welding. ?I am curious why you want to weld it-that big shoulder has room for an o-ring. ? I would also ditch the second seal-it is an air trap. ? ?Great project!Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 12:27 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny.The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal.I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & difficult.The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is from a stock tubethat I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted on.Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? There is a sleevepress fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a jig to clamp it infor welding?The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over pressure above ambient. Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense against any leaks,& for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & have a double seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the oil in & with theinternal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should fail first as it is exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is oriented so that it keepsany water out that may get past the outboard seal. The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for collecting any water thatmay get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water sensor in there.Any comments welcome.Alanp.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 24 15:51:36 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 19:51:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <880462255.149500.1458822678752.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <227940402.4381417.1458800656212.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <880462255.149500.1458822678752.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <105787491.5057830.1458849096838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,I left out some details on that drawing. The back end fits the sameas the front & has a radial o-ring seal on the end housing & 6 cap screws thatbolt in to the central housing. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hi Alan,It wouldn't hurt to clamp the end cap tight but you do have a nice shoulder for the end cap to sit on. ?Any time I make a part that can and usually does warp, I make it oversize and machine it true after welding. ?I am curious why you want to weld it-that big shoulder has room for an o-ring. ? I would also ditch the second seal-it is an air trap. ? ?Great project!Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 12:27 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny.The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal.I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & difficult.The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is from a stock tubethat I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted on.Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? There is a sleevepress fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a jig to clamp it infor welding?The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over pressure above ambient. Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense against any leaks,& for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & have a double seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the oil in & with theinternal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should fail first as it is exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is oriented so that it keepsany water out that may get past the outboard seal. The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for collecting any water thatmay get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water sensor in there.Any comments welcome.Alanp.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 24 16:05:56 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 20:05:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <105787491.5057830.1458849096838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <105787491.5057830.1458849096838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2082997585.3199.1458849956833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I like the two seals also and now that you mention you are putting in a fill plug to vent air-I am with you. ?I would get it welded before you machine the?bearing seats etc, if possible.I would still make both ends bolt together-there is nothing like having it come apart to work on it. ?My Perry thrusters break down into a million pieces and it is real nice to work on.Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 1:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I left out some details on that drawing. The back end fits the sameas the front & has a radial o-ring seal on the end housing & 6 cap screws thatbolt in to the central housing. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hi Alan,It wouldn't hurt to clamp the end cap tight but you do have a nice shoulder for the end cap to sit on. ?Any time I make a part that can and usually does warp, I make it oversize and machine it true after welding. ?I am curious why you want to weld it-that big shoulder has room for an o-ring. ? I would also ditch the second seal-it is an air trap. ? ?Great project!Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 12:27 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny.The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal.I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & difficult.The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is from a stock tubethat I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted on.Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? There is a sleevepress fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a jig to clamp it infor welding?The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over pressure above ambient. Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense against any leaks,& for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & have a double seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the oil in & with theinternal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should fail first as it is exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is oriented so that it keepsany water out that may get past the outboard seal. The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for collecting any water thatmay get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water sensor in there.Any comments welcome.Alanp.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 24 17:13:50 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 21:13:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <2082997585.3199.1458849956833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <105787491.5057830.1458849096838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <2082997585.3199.1458849956833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1421165196.4896257.1458854030863.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> OK Hank I will bolt the front section on.I had problems machining the bearing seat on the first thruster as the front section was one piece & I needed a long boring tool. I will have the same trouble if I have to machine these after welding. I will probablyloc-tite everything in on the front section as it doesn't need to come apart.The whole thruster housing (2000W) is only 80mm x 174mm (3&1/4" X 7")& there is very little to it.Are you planning any other submarine events in Europe apart from visiting Emile?I went up to Cherbourg & had a look at the submarine museum. You could spenda day there, I am sure your wife would love it.Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Alan,I like the two seals also and now that you mention you are putting in a fill plug to vent air-I am with you. ?I would get it welded before you machine the?bearing seats etc, if possible.I would still make both ends bolt together-there is nothing like having it come apart to work on it. ?My Perry thrusters break down into a million pieces and it is real nice to work on.Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 1:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I left out some details on that drawing. The back end fits the sameas the front & has a radial o-ring seal on the end housing & 6 cap screws thatbolt in to the central housing. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hi Alan,It wouldn't hurt to clamp the end cap tight but you do have a nice shoulder for the end cap to sit on. ?Any time I make a part that can and usually does warp, I make it oversize and machine it true after welding. ?I am curious why you want to weld it-that big shoulder has room for an o-ring. ? I would also ditch the second seal-it is an air trap. ? ?Great project!Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 12:27 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny.The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal.I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & difficult.The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is from a stock tubethat I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted on.Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? There is a sleevepress fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a jig to clamp it infor welding?The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over pressure above ambient. Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense against any leaks,& for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & have a double seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the oil in & with theinternal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should fail first as it is exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is oriented so that it keepsany water out that may get past the outboard seal. The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for collecting any water thatmay get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water sensor in there.Any comments welcome.Alanp.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 24 17:55:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 21:55:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <1421165196.4896257.1458854030863.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1421165196.4896257.1458854030863.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1449958048.449022.1458856504973.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,You will be glad you bolted it together, it will be a lot easier to machine . ? ?I am only in Holland for a few days then strait to Slovakia. ??Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 3:13 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: OK Hank I will bolt the front section on.I had problems machining the bearing seat on the first thruster as the front section was one piece & I needed a long boring tool. I will have the same trouble if I have to machine these after welding. I will probablyloc-tite everything in on the front section as it doesn't need to come apart.The whole thruster housing (2000W) is only 80mm x 174mm (3&1/4" X 7")& there is very little to it.Are you planning any other submarine events in Europe apart from visiting Emile?I went up to Cherbourg & had a look at the submarine museum. You could spenda day there, I am sure your wife would love it.Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Alan,I like the two seals also and now that you mention you are putting in a fill plug to vent air-I am with you. ?I would get it welded before you machine the?bearing seats etc, if possible.I would still make both ends bolt together-there is nothing like having it come apart to work on it. ?My Perry thrusters break down into a million pieces and it is real nice to work on.Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 1:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I left out some details on that drawing. The back end fits the sameas the front & has a radial o-ring seal on the end housing & 6 cap screws thatbolt in to the central housing. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hi Alan,It wouldn't hurt to clamp the end cap tight but you do have a nice shoulder for the end cap to sit on. ?Any time I make a part that can and usually does warp, I make it oversize and machine it true after welding. ?I am curious why you want to weld it-that big shoulder has room for an o-ring. ? I would also ditch the second seal-it is an air trap. ? ?Great project!Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 12:27 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny.The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal.I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & difficult.The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is from a stock tubethat I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted on.Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? There is a sleevepress fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a jig to clamp it infor welding?The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over pressure above ambient. Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense against any leaks,& for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & have a double seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the oil in & with theinternal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should fail first as it is exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is oriented so that it keepsany water out that may get past the outboard seal. The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for collecting any water thatmay get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water sensor in there.Any comments welcome.Alanp.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 24 18:06:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 09:06:58 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <1421165196.4896257.1458854030863.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <105787491.5057830.1458849096838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <2082997585.3199.1458849956833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1421165196.4896257.1458854030863.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, That looks great! Very small for the power. A couple of comments/queries: - There's no second bearing or thrust bearing - perhaps these are not shown? - Just wondering how the wiring tube is connected? Ie. tapped hole for a cable gland or compression fitting? - How is the motor held in place within the housing? - I'm guessing the motor has a carbon steel shaft and the external propeller shaft should be SS316 - are you going to weld them together or connect mechanically? Cheers, Steve On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > OK Hank I will bolt the front section on. > I had problems machining the bearing seat on the first thruster as the > front section was one piece & I needed a long boring tool. I will have the > same trouble if I have to machine these after welding. I will probably > loc-tite everything in on the front section as it doesn't need to come > apart. > The whole thruster housing (2000W) is only 80mm x 174mm (3&1/4" X 7") > & there is very little to it. > Are you planning any other submarine events in Europe apart from visiting > Emile? > I went up to Cherbourg & had a look at the submarine museum. You could > spend > a day there, I am sure your wife would love it. > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, March 25, 2016 9:05 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster > > Alan, > I like the two seals also and now that you mention you are putting in a > fill plug to vent air-I am with you. I would get it welded before you > machine the bearing seats etc, if possible. > I would still make both ends bolt together-there is nothing like having it > come apart to work on it. My Perry thrusters break down into a million > pieces and it is real nice to work on. > Hank > > > On Thursday, March 24, 2016 1:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank, > I left out some details on that drawing. The back end fits the same > as the front & has a radial o-ring seal on the end housing & 6 cap screws > that > bolt in to the central housing. > Alan > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, March 25, 2016 1:31 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster > > Hi Alan, > It wouldn't hurt to clamp the end cap tight but you do have a nice > shoulder for the end cap to sit on. Any time I make a part that can and > usually does warp, I make it oversize and machine it true after welding. I > am curious why you want to weld it-that big shoulder has room for an > o-ring. I would also ditch the second seal-it is an air trap. Great > project! > Hank > > > On Thursday, March 24, 2016 12:27 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny. > The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal. > I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & > difficult. > The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is > from a stock tube > that I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted > on. > Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? > There is a sleeve > press fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a > jig to clamp it in > for welding? > The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over > pressure above ambient. > Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense > against any leaks, > & for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & > have a double > seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the > oil in & with the > internal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should > fail first as it is > exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is > oriented so that it keeps > any water out that may get past the outboard seal. > The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for > collecting any water that > may get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water > sensor in there. > Any comments welcome. > Alan > p.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. > > [image: motor cut away.jpg] > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 24 19:24:02 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 23:24:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: References: <105787491.5057830.1458849096838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <2082997585.3199.1458849956833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1421165196.4896257.1458854030863.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1128813011.4844210.1458861842871.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Steve,sorry, I left a bit of detail out of that drawing.Firstly the motor is an outrunner; so the back section with wires coming out is stationaryas are the coils inside, but the rest of the can, with magnets, rotates.The motor has a thrust bearing in it,?and that takes the forward load from the propeller.There will be a circlip on the propeller shaft that will run against the bearing shown,when in reverse. The motor comes with 4 threaded holes in the back for mounting.I am putting 4 pins in these that will locate in 4 holes in the rear section of the thrusterhousing. The pins will only centralize the motor & stop the back section of the motor rotating. The whole motor could move laterally on the pins when going from forward to reversebut with a tight tolerance this shouldn't be a problem.?? I am replacing the propeller shaft with 316 SS as I did in the last version. The factory thatsupplied the motor kindly sent it disassembled to facilitate this. They normally Loctite everything.?? The wiring tube takes the 3 phase wires + 6 hall sensor & 2 heat sensor wires. I may adda water sensor in the bottom tube. The wires in the last version came out through a hoseconnector fitting that was press fitted in with Loctite and had a?clear plastic hose clamped to it. I like this, as the oil for compensation also runs?in it & the clear hose is a level indicator. I will send the wiring?through a penetrator at the hull.Cheers Alan From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hi Alan,That looks great!? Very small for the power.? A couple of comments/queries:-?There's?no second bearing or thrust bearing - perhaps these are not shown?- Just wondering how the wiring tube is connected???Ie. tapped hole for a?cable gland or compression fitting?- How is the motor held in place within the housing?-?I'm guessing the?motor?has a?carbon steel shaft and the?external propeller shaft should be SS316 -?are you going to weld them together or connect mechanically? Cheers,Steve On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: OK Hank I will bolt the front section on.I had problems machining the bearing seat on the first thruster as the front section was one piece & I needed a long boring tool. I will have the same trouble if I have to machine these after welding. I will probablyloc-tite everything in on the front section as it doesn't need to come apart.The whole thruster housing (2000W) is only 80mm x 174mm (3&1/4" X 7")& there is very little to it.Are you planning any other submarine events in Europe apart from visiting Emile?I went up to Cherbourg & had a look at the submarine museum. You could spenda day there, I am sure your wife would love it.Cheers Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Alan,I like the two seals also and now that you mention you are putting in a fill plug to vent air-I am with you.? I would get it welded before you machine the?bearing seats etc, if possible.I would still make both ends bolt together-there is nothing like having it come apart to work on it.? My Perry thrusters break down into a million pieces and it is real nice to work on.Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 1:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I left out some details on that drawing. The back end fits the sameas the front & has a radial o-ring seal on the end housing & 6 cap screws thatbolt in to the central housing. Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hi Alan,It wouldn't hurt to clamp the end cap tight but you do have a nice shoulder for the end cap to sit on.? Any time I make a part that can and usually does warp, I make it oversize and machine it true after welding.? I am curious why you want to weld it-that big shoulder has room for an o-ring. ? I would also ditch the second seal-it is an air trap. ? ?Great project!Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 12:27 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny.The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal.I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & difficult.The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is from a stock tubethat I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted on.Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? There is a sleevepress fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a jig to clamp it infor welding?The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over pressure above ambient. Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense against any leaks,& for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & have a double seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the oil in & with theinternal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should fail first as it is exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is oriented so that it keepsany water out that may get past the outboard seal. The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for collecting any water thatmay get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water sensor in there.Any comments welcome.Alanp.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 24 19:31:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 10:31:55 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <1128813011.4844210.1458861842871.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <105787491.5057830.1458849096838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <2082997585.3199.1458849956833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1421165196.4896257.1458854030863.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1128813011.4844210.1458861842871.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, I figured there was more to it - I really like that idea of putting the motor in with pins in it to stop rotating but just sitting in the tube. Cheers, Steve On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Steve, > sorry, I left a bit of detail out of that drawing. > Firstly the motor is an outrunner; so the back section with wires coming > out is stationary > as are the coils inside, but the rest of the can, with magnets, rotates. > The motor has a thrust bearing in it, and that takes the forward load from > the propeller. > There will be a circlip on the propeller shaft that will run against the > bearing shown, > when in reverse. The motor comes with 4 threaded holes in the back for > mounting. > I am putting 4 pins in these that will locate in 4 holes in the rear > section of the thruster > housing. The pins will only centralize the motor & stop the back section > of the motor > rotating. The whole motor could move laterally on the pins when going from > forward to reverse > but with a tight tolerance this shouldn't be a problem. > I am replacing the propeller shaft with 316 SS as I did in the last > version. The factory that > supplied the motor kindly sent it disassembled to facilitate this. They > normally Loctite everything. > The wiring tube takes the 3 phase wires + 6 hall sensor & 2 heat sensor > wires. I may add > a water sensor in the bottom tube. The wires in the last version came out > through a hose > connector fitting that was press fitted in with Loctite and had a clear > plastic hose clamped to it. > I like this, as the oil for compensation also runs in it & the clear hose > is a level indicator. > I will send the wiring through a penetrator at the hull. > Cheers Alan > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, March 25, 2016 11:06 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster > > Hi Alan, > That looks great! Very small for the power. A couple of comments/queries: > - There's no second bearing or thrust bearing - perhaps these are not > shown? > - Just wondering how the wiring tube is connected? Ie. tapped hole for > a cable gland or compression fitting? > - How is the motor held in place within the housing? > - I'm guessing the motor has a carbon steel shaft and the external > propeller shaft should be SS316 - are you going to weld them together or > connect mechanically? > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > OK Hank I will bolt the front section on. > I had problems machining the bearing seat on the first thruster as the > front section was one piece & I needed a long boring tool. I will have the > same trouble if I have to machine these after welding. I will probably > loc-tite everything in on the front section as it doesn't need to come > apart. > The whole thruster housing (2000W) is only 80mm x 174mm (3&1/4" X 7") > & there is very little to it. > Are you planning any other submarine events in Europe apart from visiting > Emile? > I went up to Cherbourg & had a look at the submarine museum. You could > spend > a day there, I am sure your wife would love it. > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, March 25, 2016 9:05 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster > > Alan, > I like the two seals also and now that you mention you are putting in a > fill plug to vent air-I am with you. I would get it welded before you > machine the bearing seats etc, if possible. > I would still make both ends bolt together-there is nothing like having it > come apart to work on it. My Perry thrusters break down into a million > pieces and it is real nice to work on. > Hank > > > On Thursday, March 24, 2016 1:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank, > I left out some details on that drawing. The back end fits the same > as the front & has a radial o-ring seal on the end housing & 6 cap screws > that > bolt in to the central housing. > Alan > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, March 25, 2016 1:31 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster > > Hi Alan, > It wouldn't hurt to clamp the end cap tight but you do have a nice > shoulder for the end cap to sit on. Any time I make a part that can and > usually does warp, I make it oversize and machine it true after welding. I > am curious why you want to weld it-that big shoulder has room for an > o-ring. I would also ditch the second seal-it is an air trap. Great > project! > Hank > > > On Thursday, March 24, 2016 12:27 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny. > The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal. > I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & > difficult. > The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is > from a stock tube > that I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted > on. > Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? > There is a sleeve > press fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a > jig to clamp it in > for welding? > The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over > pressure above ambient. > Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense > against any leaks, > & for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & > have a double > seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the > oil in & with the > internal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should > fail first as it is > exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is > oriented so that it keeps > any water out that may get past the outboard seal. > The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for > collecting any water that > may get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water > sensor in there. > Any comments welcome. > Alan > p.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. > > [image: motor cut away.jpg] > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 25 00:52:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 17:52:51 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <389077522.4870090.1458844452380.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <227940402.4381417.1458800656212.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <880462255.149500.1458822678752.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <389077522.4870090.1458844452380.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56f4c3fa.c35a420a.f493c.18b9@mx.google.com> Alan, 1. The inside seal will still see full pressure and lip seals have PV ratings (pressure times Velocity) They invented mechanical seals for that reason. 2. The bearings in the motor are generally only for radial load not axial load. You will need a thrust bearing probably. 3. The solid nature of the end caps is going to make it too heavy possibly and you could drill a series of holes or other method of hollowing out. 4. Those motors are reliant on a huge amount of air passing for cooling them so if possible ensure you have better contact area of the motor to the housing Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 25 March 2016 7:34 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hank, thanks for the advice. I thought that welding would be quicker & cheaper rather than cutting an o-ring groove & drilling & taping & recessing for 6 bolt holes. Also a more smoother hydrodynamic finish. I will be welding on the fins for the kort nozzle attachment so can do it all in one shot. I will probably add a fill port in to the top of the seal compartment to aid air removal. Once there is oil in there the only way you would get air in would be running it out of water with some sort of reverse pumping action caused by the seal. The double seal arrangement I am copying from that military document on sealing & compensation. However they use face seals. This thruster is so small that 2 face seals would take up too much space, so have doubled up on 2 low pressure lip seals. In the pdf it makes a good case for the secondary seal & I intend to do most of my diving in seawater where it is a more destructive environment. All the Minnkotas I have seen have 2 seals, I think just lip seals. Cheers Alan _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hi Alan, It wouldn't hurt to clamp the end cap tight but you do have a nice shoulder for the end cap to sit on. Any time I make a part that can and usually does warp, I make it oversize and machine it true after welding. I am curious why you want to weld it-that big shoulder has room for an o-ring. I would also ditch the second seal-it is an air trap. Great project! Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 12:27 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny. The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal. I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & difficult. The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is from a stock tube that I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted on. Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? There is a sleeve press fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a jig to clamp it in for welding? The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over pressure above ambient. Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense against any leaks, & for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & have a double seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the oil in & with the internal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should fail first as it is exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is oriented so that it keeps any water out that may get past the outboard seal. The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for collecting any water that may get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water sensor in there. Any comments welcome. Alan p.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 25 01:15:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 23:15:01 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dual-purpose fluids Message-ID: <0fb9d6d3-38b8-4bb9-ac08-29ad6ac2b844@email.android.com> I want to know if there is such a thing as a fluid which is simultaneously suitable for hydraulic power transmission (piston pump / motor) and as a lubricant fill (circulated) in a custom bevel gearcase? Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 25 01:20:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 18:20:35 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <1128813011.4844210.1458861842871.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <105787491.5057830.1458849096838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <2082997585.3199.1458849956833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1421165196.4896257.1458854030863.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1128813011.4844210.1458861842871.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56f4ca7a.c976420a.86c84.2609@mx.google.com> Alan, I was working through all the emails and didn?t see this one which explains things a bit better but thrust bearings tend to be one direction. If you are using reverse then you may need another. Hugh rom: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 25 March 2016 12:24 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hi Steve, sorry, I left a bit of detail out of that drawing. Firstly the motor is an outrunner; so the back section with wires coming out is stationary as are the coils inside, but the rest of the can, with magnets, rotates. The motor has a thrust bearing in it, and that takes the forward load from the propeller. There will be a circlip on the propeller shaft that will run against the bearing shown, when in reverse. The motor comes with 4 threaded holes in the back for mounting. I am putting 4 pins in these that will locate in 4 holes in the rear section of the thruster housing. The pins will only centralize the motor & stop the back section of the motor rotating. The whole motor could move laterally on the pins when going from forward to reverse but with a tight tolerance this shouldn't be a problem. I am replacing the propeller shaft with 316 SS as I did in the last version. The factory that supplied the motor kindly sent it disassembled to facilitate this. They normally Loctite everything. The wiring tube takes the 3 phase wires + 6 hall sensor & 2 heat sensor wires. I may add a water sensor in the bottom tube. The wires in the last version came out through a hose connector fitting that was press fitted in with Loctite and had a clear plastic hose clamped to it. I like this, as the oil for compensation also runs in it & the clear hose is a level indicator. I will send the wiring through a penetrator at the hull. Cheers Alan _____ From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hi Alan, That looks great! Very small for the power. A couple of comments/queries: - There's no second bearing or thrust bearing - perhaps these are not shown? - Just wondering how the wiring tube is connected? Ie. tapped hole for a cable gland or compression fitting? - How is the motor held in place within the housing? - I'm guessing the motor has a carbon steel shaft and the external propeller shaft should be SS316 - are you going to weld them together or connect mechanically? Cheers, Steve On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: OK Hank I will bolt the front section on. I had problems machining the bearing seat on the first thruster as the front section was one piece & I needed a long boring tool. I will have the same trouble if I have to machine these after welding. I will probably loc-tite everything in on the front section as it doesn't need to come apart. The whole thruster housing (2000W) is only 80mm x 174mm (3&1/4" X 7") & there is very little to it. Are you planning any other submarine events in Europe apart from visiting Emile? I went up to Cherbourg & had a look at the submarine museum. You could spend a day there, I am sure your wife would love it. Cheers Alan _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Alan, I like the two seals also and now that you mention you are putting in a fill plug to vent air-I am with you. I would get it welded before you machine the bearing seats etc, if possible. I would still make both ends bolt together-there is nothing like having it come apart to work on it. My Perry thrusters break down into a million pieces and it is real nice to work on. Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 1:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I left out some details on that drawing. The back end fits the same as the front & has a radial o-ring seal on the end housing & 6 cap screws that bolt in to the central housing. Alan _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hi Alan, It wouldn't hurt to clamp the end cap tight but you do have a nice shoulder for the end cap to sit on. Any time I make a part that can and usually does warp, I make it oversize and machine it true after welding. I am curious why you want to weld it-that big shoulder has room for an o-ring. I would also ditch the second seal-it is an air trap. Great project! Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 12:27 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny. The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal. I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & difficult. The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is from a stock tube that I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted on. Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? There is a sleeve press fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a jig to clamp it in for welding? The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over pressure above ambient. Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense against any leaks, & for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & have a double seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the oil in & with the internal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should fail first as it is exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is oriented so that it keeps any water out that may get past the outboard seal. The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for collecting any water that may get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water sensor in there. Any comments welcome. Alan p.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 25 08:29:35 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 12:29:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dual-purpose fluids In-Reply-To: <0fb9d6d3-38b8-4bb9-ac08-29ad6ac2b844@email.android.com> References: <0fb9d6d3-38b8-4bb9-ac08-29ad6ac2b844@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1963805345.612916.1458908975300.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,I use motor oil for hydraulic fluid all the time. ?I have a small 1\2 hp right angle gear box here that uses motor oil in it. ?I think it would depend on the load on the gear box.Hank On Thursday, March 24, 2016 11:15 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I want to know if there is such a thing as a fluid which is simultaneously suitable for hydraulic power transmission (piston pump / motor) and as a lubricant fill (circulated) in a custom bevel gearcase?Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 25 09:09:36 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 07:09:36 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dual-purpose fluids In-Reply-To: <1963805345.612916.1458908975300.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0fb9d6d3-38b8-4bb9-ac08-29ad6ac2b844@email.android.com> <1963805345.612916.1458908975300.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009cfc16-ef5c-4026-921f-dc98690f442d@email.android.com> I've been doing a bit more research online. It looks like a hydraulic fluid with anti-wear additives will work, but I might need to go to a higher viscosity grade than would be strictly ideal for low-loss power transmission. I'll have to do a bunch of calculations to see how much of an efficiency hit that will be, but there are big advantages to using the same fluid for both. Automotive motor oil would work for the gears, but is not optimized for hydraulic power transmission. Sean On March 25, 2016 6:29:35 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,I use motor oil for hydraulic fluid all the time. ?I have a small >1\2 hp right angle gear box here that uses motor oil in it. ?I think it >would depend on the load on the gear box.Hank > >On Thursday, March 24, 2016 11:15 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >I want to know if there is such a thing as a fluid which is >simultaneously suitable for hydraulic power transmission (piston pump / >motor) and as a lubricant fill (circulated) in a custom bevel >gearcase?Sean > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 25 11:10:51 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 09:10:51 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dual-purpose fluids In-Reply-To: <009cfc16-ef5c-4026-921f-dc98690f442d@email.android.com> References: <0fb9d6d3-38b8-4bb9-ac08-29ad6ac2b844@email.android.com> <1963805345.612916.1458908975300.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <009cfc16-ef5c-4026-921f-dc98690f442d@email.android.com> Message-ID: <19f7eae8-1a1a-4c27-88c4-858897b4b476@email.android.com> I am considering a ducted thruster design driven by a hydraulic motor perpendicular to the duct axis, with a compact miter gearbox in the flow path within the duct (in an appropriately faired housing) with two output shafts rotating in opposite directions. The two counter rotating propellors would null the helical flow from the thruster. My idea was to run the hydraulic oil on the output side of the motor (@ tank / compensation pressure) through the gearbox (with sufficiently large flow path to minimize restriction / upstream pressure) before returning to tank, to lubricate the gears with active circulation so that wear particles can be filtered out, and the gear housing would be pressure compensated that way. It's all a bit complicated, but with spiral miter gears the efficiency loss shouldn't be that bad, and there are other advantages to hydraulic drive. Sean On March 25, 2016 7:09:36 AM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >I've been doing a bit more research online. It looks like a hydraulic >fluid with anti-wear additives will work, but I might need to go to a >higher viscosity grade than would be strictly ideal for low-loss power >transmission. I'll have to do a bunch of calculations to see how much >of an efficiency hit that will be, but there are big advantages to >using the same fluid for both. > >Automotive motor oil would work for the gears, but is not optimized for >hydraulic power transmission. > >Sean > > >On March 25, 2016 6:29:35 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>Sean,I use motor oil for hydraulic fluid all the time. ?I have a small >>1\2 hp right angle gear box here that uses motor oil in it. ?I think >it >>would depend on the load on the gear box.Hank >> >>On Thursday, March 24, 2016 11:15 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >>I want to know if there is such a thing as a fluid which is >>simultaneously suitable for hydraulic power transmission (piston pump >/ >>motor) and as a lubricant fill (circulated) in a custom bevel >>gearcase?Sean >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 25 17:59:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 21:59:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bow thruster References: <1035950882.834933.1458943171502.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1035950882.834933.1458943171502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,It sounds like you are going for something like a hydraulic bow thruster, I am not sure if the props autorotate.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 25 19:12:11 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 17:12:11 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bow thruster In-Reply-To: <1035950882.834933.1458943171502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1035950882.834933.1458943171502.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1035950882.834933.1458943171502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <89215b10-10ee-4ebc-a71c-571b82b5f4e5@email.android.com> It will be similar to a surface vessel bow thruster, only instead of a thruster tunnel in a hull, it will be housed in a symmetric nozzle which itself can be vectored with an actuator. I'm designing the gearbox from scratch - a few off-the-shelf spiral miter gears, tapered roller combined load bearings, shafts, seals and ports for oil circulation. Not sure what you mean by autorotate? They will not freewheel, if that's what you mean. Zero output on the hydraulic servovalve will lock off fluid flow (and thus lock out motion), although the gearbox will still be pressure compensated from the discharge side. Sean On March 25, 2016 3:59:31 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean,It sounds like you are going for something like a hydraulic bow >thruster, I am not sure if the props autorotate.Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 25 22:36:11 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:36:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bow thruster In-Reply-To: <89215b10-10ee-4ebc-a71c-571b82b5f4e5@email.android.com> References: <89215b10-10ee-4ebc-a71c-571b82b5f4e5@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1755385974.990634.1458959771790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Autorotate, maybe wrong word, I meant both props turn opposite directions. ?Are you thinking of vectoring in multiple directions or rotating 360 degrees.I was once working on a single thruster design. ?The thruster could point in any direction so the sub only needs one thruster. ?Hank On Friday, March 25, 2016 5:12 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It will be similar to a surface vessel bow thruster, only instead of a thruster tunnel in a hull, it will be housed in a symmetric nozzle which itself can be vectored with an actuator.? I'm designing the gearbox from scratch - a few off-the-shelf spiral miter gears, tapered roller combined load bearings, shafts, seals and ports for oil circulation. Not sure what you mean by autorotate? They will not freewheel, if that's what you mean. Zero output on the hydraulic servovalve will lock off fluid flow (and thus lock out motion), although the gearbox will still be pressure compensated from the discharge side.Sean On March 25, 2016 3:59:31 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,It sounds like you are going for something like a hydraulic bow thruster, I am not sure if the props autorotate.Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 25 23:06:24 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 21:06:24 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bow thruster In-Reply-To: <1755385974.990634.1458959771790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <89215b10-10ee-4ebc-a71c-571b82b5f4e5@email.android.com> <1755385974.990634.1458959771790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4d60848f-9ef3-4037-bf38-509adfbee1df@email.android.com> The counter rotation is a function of the design of the gearbox. It is possible to do it either way, but having e.g. one right handed prop on the forward shaft and one left handed prop rotating in the other direction on the after shaft counters wasted energy from discharge thrust that is circumferentially accelerated. Of course, there is some wasted energy associated with the gearbox, so it's not all positive, but I think I'll come out ahead in my specific application. I wasn't going to vector one big thruster through a large range of motion, but rather have thrusters mounted on either side, with some degree of movement in order to selectively optimize the thrust direction depending on commanded ahead/astern, lateral, or rotary movement. Any such scheme has to carry all of the thrust through to the vessel, so it requires some thought on how to best arrange. Sean On March 25, 2016 8:36:11 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Autorotate, maybe wrong word, I meant both props turn opposite >directions. ?Are you thinking of vectoring in multiple directions or >rotating 360 degrees.I was once working on a single thruster design. >?The thruster could point in any direction so the sub only needs one >thruster. ?Hank > >On Friday, March 25, 2016 5:12 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >It will be similar to a surface vessel bow thruster, only instead of a >thruster tunnel in a hull, it will be housed in a symmetric nozzle >which itself can be vectored with an actuator.? I'm designing the >gearbox from scratch - a few off-the-shelf spiral miter gears, tapered >roller combined load bearings, shafts, seals and ports for oil >circulation. Not sure what you mean by autorotate? They will not >freewheel, if that's what you mean. Zero output on the hydraulic >servovalve will lock off fluid flow (and thus lock out motion), >although the gearbox will still be pressure compensated from the >discharge side.Sean > >On March 25, 2016 3:59:31 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Hi Sean,It sounds like you are going for something like a hydraulic bow >thruster, I am not sure if the props autorotate.Hank >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 27 18:14:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 12:14:07 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bow thruster In-Reply-To: <4d60848f-9ef3-4037-bf38-509adfbee1df@email.android.com> References: <89215b10-10ee-4ebc-a71c-571b82b5f4e5@email.android.com> <1755385974.990634.1458959771790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <4d60848f-9ef3-4037-bf38-509adfbee1df@email.android.com> Message-ID: I haven't posted in ages and can't seem to post a new thread for some reason so am attaching this to Sean's last post. I am planning on attaching a VHF antenna on top of my hatch and was wondering what I need to do to water tight where the co-axle cable goes into the antenna? Rick On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The counter rotation is a function of the design of the gearbox. It is > possible to do it either way, but having e.g. one right handed prop on the > forward shaft and one left handed prop rotating in the other direction on > the after shaft counters wasted energy from discharge thrust that is > circumferentially accelerated. Of course, there is some wasted energy > associated with the gearbox, so it's not all positive, but I think I'll > come out ahead in my specific application. > > I wasn't going to vector one big thruster through a large range of motion, > but rather have thrusters mounted on either side, with some degree of > movement in order to selectively optimize the thrust direction depending on > commanded ahead/astern, lateral, or rotary movement. > > Any such scheme has to carry all of the thrust through to the vessel, so > it requires some thought on how to best arrange. > > Sean > > > On March 25, 2016 8:36:11 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Autorotate, maybe wrong word, I meant both props turn opposite >> directions. Are you thinking of vectoring in multiple directions or >> rotating 360 degrees. >> I was once working on a single thruster design. The thruster could point >> in any direction so the sub only needs one thruster. >> Hank >> >> >> On Friday, March 25, 2016 5:12 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> It will be similar to a surface vessel bow thruster, only instead of a >> thruster tunnel in a hull, it will be housed in a symmetric nozzle which >> itself can be vectored with an actuator. I'm designing the gearbox from >> scratch - a few off-the-shelf spiral miter gears, tapered roller combined >> load bearings, shafts, seals and ports for oil circulation. Not sure what >> you mean by autorotate? They will not freewheel, if that's what you mean. >> Zero output on the hydraulic servovalve will lock off fluid flow (and thus >> lock out motion), although the gearbox will still be pressure compensated >> from the discharge side. >> Sean >> >> >> On March 25, 2016 3:59:31 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Sean, >> It sounds like you are going for something like a hydraulic bow thruster, >> I am not sure if the props autorotate. >> Hank >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 27 18:55:54 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 22:55:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] antenna References: <133911502.1413813.1459119354602.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <133911502.1413813.1459119354602.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick,Can you shrink tube over the cable and over the connection to the antenna? ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 27 20:17:53 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 00:17:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] antenna In-Reply-To: <133911502.1413813.1459119354602.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <133911502.1413813.1459119354602.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <133911502.1413813.1459119354602.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <235415161.1076509.1459124273783.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,if you are thinking of shrink tubing, here is a post from Keith Gordonon splicing with shrink tube.Alan Over the years we have done a number of connector and cable splices for our ROV systems and other underwater systems and used down to 2000ft or so without problems. I use the 2 part resin which 3M supply with their Scotchcast 82 -A splice kits (don't have resin spec with me at present) but rather than use their 2 piece mould supplied with the kit I use Raychem WCSM heat shrink. A few precautions needed when doing the splice but basically ?the heat shrink is heated to shrink one end onto cable or connector, then supported vertical with open end of shrink upper. The resin is mixed and poured into the open shrink leaving enough shrink to later heat and close around cable after resin has set. While resin is still in liguid form and setting, hand squeeze the shrink at intervals to burp any air bubbles. After resin set use heat gun to shrink the excess shrine around cable to close off the splice. It works!I have attached photo of some cables and connectors I have spliced - hope this helps - the 3M resin product is not cheap but who wants to be cheap at depth. CheersKeith Gordon From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:55 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] antenna Hi Rick,Can you shrink tube over the cable and over the connection to the antenna? ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 28 23:19:29 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 03:19:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <56f4ca7a.c976420a.86c84.2609@mx.google.com> References: <105787491.5057830.1458849096838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <2082997585.3199.1458849956833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1421165196.4896257.1458854030863.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1128813011.4844210.1458861842871.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56f4ca7a.c976420a.86c84.2609@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1425813225.1047365.1459221569869.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hugh,thanks for the comments on the bearings. I went in to Saeco to try & find what axial load the bearings in?my motor could take.They put me on to NSK's head engineer.The bearings were?a 6800Z deep grove ball bearing, & although they could take the load, their life expectancy was less than 60 hrs at 50lb thrust. He initially suggested an angular contact bearing, but because of the tight machining tolerances required changed this to a larger deep groove ball bearing. (6000)So the bearings in the motor will stay there?but I'll have the suggested bearings pressedin to the housing either end of the motor with the propeller shaft running through them to take forward & reverse thrust axial load.Cheers Alan From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster #yiv9623402152 #yiv9623402152 -- _filtered #yiv9623402152 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9623402152 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9623402152 {font-family:helveticaneue;}#yiv9623402152 #yiv9623402152 p.yiv9623402152MsoNormal, #yiv9623402152 li.yiv9623402152MsoNormal, #yiv9623402152 div.yiv9623402152MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9623402152 a:link, #yiv9623402152 span.yiv9623402152MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9623402152 a:visited, #yiv9623402152 span.yiv9623402152MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9623402152 p.yiv9623402152MsoAcetate, #yiv9623402152 li.yiv9623402152MsoAcetate, #yiv9623402152 div.yiv9623402152MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv9623402152 span.yiv9623402152EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9623402152 span.yiv9623402152BalloonTextChar {}#yiv9623402152 .yiv9623402152MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9623402152 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv9623402152 div.yiv9623402152WordSection1 {}#yiv9623402152 Alan,I was working through all the emails and didn?t see this one which explains things a bit better but thrust bearings tend to be one direction.? If you are using reverse then you may need another.Hugh ?rom: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 25 March 2016 12:24 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster ?Hi Steve,sorry, I left a bit of detail out of that drawing.Firstly the motor is an outrunner; so the back section with wires coming out is stationaryas are the coils inside, but the rest of the can, with magnets, rotates.The motor has a thrust bearing in it,?and that takes the forward load from the propeller.There will be a circlip on the propeller shaft that will run against the bearing shown,when in reverse. The motor comes with 4 threaded holes in the back for mounting.I am putting 4 pins in these that will locate in 4 holes in the rear section of the thrusterhousing. The pins will only centralize the motor & stop the back section of the motor rotating. The whole motor could move laterally on the pins when going from forward to reversebut with a tight tolerance this shouldn't be a problem.?? I am replacing the propeller shaft with 316 SS as I did in the last version. The factory thatsupplied the motor kindly sent it disassembled to facilitate this. They normally Loctite everything.?? The wiring tube takes the 3 phase wires + 6 hall sensor & 2 heat sensor wires. I may adda water sensor in the bottom tube. The wires in the last version came out through a hoseconnector fitting that was press fitted in with Loctite and had a?clear plastic hose clamped to it. I like this, as the oil for compensation also runs?in it & the clear hose is a level indicator. I will send the wiring?through a penetrator at the hull.Cheers Alan ? ?From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster ?Hi Alan,That looks great!? Very small for the power.? A couple of comments/queries:-?There's?no second bearing or thrust bearing - perhaps these are not shown?- Just wondering how the wiring tube is connected???Ie. tapped hole for a?cable gland or compression fitting?- How is the motor held in place within the housing?-?I'm guessing the?motor?has a?carbon steel shaft and the?external propeller shaft should be SS316 -?are you going to weld them together or connect mechanically? ?Cheers,Steve ?On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote:OK Hank I will bolt the front section on.I had problems machining the bearing seat on the first thruster as the front section was one piece & I needed a long boring tool. I will have the same trouble if I have to machine these after welding. I will probablyloc-tite everything in on the front section as it doesn't need to come apart.The whole thruster housing (2000W) is only 80mm x 174mm (3&1/4" X 7")& there is very little to it.Are you planning any other submarine events in Europe apart from visiting Emile?I went up to Cherbourg & had a look at the submarine museum. You could spenda day there, I am sure your wife would love it.Cheers Alan ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster ?Alan,I like the two seals also and now that you mention you are putting in a fill plug to vent air-I am with you.? I would get it welded before you machine the?bearing seats etc, if possible.I would still make both ends bolt together-there is nothing like having it come apart to work on it.? My Perry thrusters break down into a million pieces and it is real nice to work on.Hank ?On Thursday, March 24, 2016 1:55 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank,I left out some details on that drawing. The back end fits the sameas the front & has a radial o-ring seal on the end housing & 6 cap screws thatbolt in to the central housing. Alan ? ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster ?Hi Alan,It wouldn't hurt to clamp the end cap tight but you do have a nice shoulder for the end cap to sit on.? Any time I make a part that can and usually does warp, I make it oversize and machine it true after welding.? I am curious why you want to weld it-that big shoulder has room for an o-ring. ? I would also ditch the second seal-it is an air trap. ? ?Great project!Hank ?On Thursday, March 24, 2016 12:27 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?This is my latest brushless thruster design for scrutiny.The last thruster I made was 2 piece with one seal.I machined the last version out of aluminum rod, which was expensive & difficult.The end pieces in this design are from solid rod but the mid section is from a stock tubethat I intend to have welded to the propeller end. The back end is bolted on.Am I likely to get distortion when welding the two sections together? There is a sleevepress fitting to help give it some rigidity for welding. Should I make a jig to clamp it infor welding?The thruster is for 500ft depth & is oil filled with a slight over pressure above ambient. Oil filled mainly for cooling purposes, but also as a secondary defense against any leaks,& for lubrication of bearings & seals. I am using low pressure lip seals & have a double seal redundant arrangement. The outboard seal is orientated to keep the oil in & with theinternal overpressure should keep the water out. The outboard seal should fail first as it is exposed to abrasives, especially in sea water. The inboard seal is oriented so that it keepsany water out that may get past the outboard seal. The tube coming out of the seal cavity is for pressurizing it & for collecting any water thatmay get through & come out of suspension. I am thinking of putting a water sensor in there.Any comments welcome.Alanp.s. if image isn't big enough keep hitting ctrl & + TO ENLARGE. ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 29 21:20:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:20:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sport sub for sale Message-ID: <20160329182055.5CE4A582@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 01:08:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:08:44 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sport sub for sale In-Reply-To: <20160329182055.5CE4A582@m0087791.ppops.net> References: <20160329182055.5CE4A582@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: <000001d18a42$3d088c20$b719a460$@telus.net> A very nice sub by the looks of the photos. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 6:21 PM To: PSubs Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sport sub for sale Saw this on Craigslist LA https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/boa/5503922470.html Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 12:50:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 06:50:22 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sport sub for sale In-Reply-To: <000001d18a42$3d088c20$b719a460$@telus.net> References: <20160329182055.5CE4A582@m0087791.ppops.net> <000001d18a42$3d088c20$b719a460$@telus.net> Message-ID: There used to be one of these here on the big island but haven't seen it in ages. No wonder it's for sale, it's in South Dakota. No offence to those who may live there? On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 7:08 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > A very nice sub by the looks of the photos. > > Tim > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 29, 2016 6:21 PM > *To:* PSubs > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] sport sub for sale > > > > Saw this on Craigslist LA > > > > https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/boa/5503922470.html > > > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 15:38:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:38:22 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics Message-ID: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Esmarelda1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 33580 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: esmarelda5.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 88910 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: esmarelda2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 97410 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 16:02:04 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:02:04 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics In-Reply-To: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: <56fc3086.890c620a.52f4c.1699@mx.google.com> Hi Brian, Well, talk about thinking outside the square! Looks awesome and should tow well. What depth?? Good luck. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 31 March 2016 8:38 a.m. To: PSubs Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics Hi All, Ready for initial testing now. Just a few odds and ends to take care of before I put her in the water. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 17:28:49 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 21:28:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics In-Reply-To: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1614667644.3348409.1459373329078.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Wow, that will turn a few heads, well done.How do you get in her? Is there a ladder I am not seeing?Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 8:38 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics Hi All,???????????????????? Ready for initial testing now.?? Just a few odds and ends to take care of before I put her in the water.?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 17:52:48 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:52:48 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics In-Reply-To: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1459374768931.1011305.32054ba635d33e395d113ba9a7b75ab5f77b71b0@spica.telekom.de> I know were you steal the blueprints: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/66/b2/e0/66b2e00d18cb730604089a3bf9ac41ed.jpg -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics Datum: 2016-03-30T21:42:20+0200 Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" An: "PSubs" Hi All, Ready for initial testing now. Just a few odds and ends to take care of before I put her in the water. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 19:00:22 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:00:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics In-Reply-To: <1459374768931.1011305.32054ba635d33e395d113ba9a7b75ab5f77b71b0@spica.telekom.de> References: <1459374768931.1011305.32054ba635d33e395d113ba9a7b75ab5f77b71b0@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1048560573.698061.1459378822790.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Congatulations! the end of a long journey.Hank On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 3:53 PM, "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ?I know were you steal the blueprints: ?http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/66/b2/e0/66b2e00d18cb730604089a3bf9ac41ed.jpg??????-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda picsDatum: 2016-03-30T21:42:20+0200Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" An: "PSubs" ???Hi All,???????????????????? Ready for initial testing now.?? Just a few odds and ends to take care of before I put her in the water.?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 19:07:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:07:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Elementary 3000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1752275934.707875.1459379251380.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I tried sending earlier, sorry if this is a duplicate. ?Here is Elementary 3000 on the trailer, ready for first dive tomorrow, There is room for the tender on the trailer as well. ?This dive is to confirm balance and buoyancy. ?Next week I intend to install Gamma's 7 function manipulator with external hyd pump and valve.Hank On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 5:03 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0320.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29042 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 19:09:36 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:09:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: rear view of Elementary 3000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1995185109.5741.1459379376955.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Here is the rear viewHank On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 5:08 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0319.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26392 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 19:27:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:27:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics In-Reply-To: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: Congrats, that'll be a fun day. If I hadn't followed the build for years, I'd swear you captured that ship with a tractor beam. Best, Alec On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > Ready for initial testing now. Just a few odds and > ends to take care of before I put her in the water. > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 19:35:02 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 16:35:02 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics Message-ID: <20160330163502.C978C228@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 19:37:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 16:37:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics Message-ID: <20160330163758.C978C219@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 19:38:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 16:38:59 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics Message-ID: <20160330163859.C978C268@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 19:40:18 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 16:40:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics Message-ID: <20160330164018.C978C243@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 21:19:26 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 18:19:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics In-Reply-To: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: <000001d18aeb$5e51ecb0$1af5c610$@telus.net> Excellent work, Brian. Congratulations. Wishing full success during the depth tests. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 12:38 PM To: PSubs Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics Hi All, Ready for initial testing now. Just a few odds and ends to take care of before I put her in the water. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 21:21:32 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 18:21:32 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Elementary 3000 In-Reply-To: <1752275934.707875.1459379251380.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1752275934.707875.1459379251380.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000501d18aeb$a93cb250$fbb616f0$@telus.net> Looks great, Hank, as has become the Hank norm. Which sub do you plan on taking to Psubs-con? Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 4:08 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Elementary 3000 I tried sending earlier, sorry if this is a duplicate. Here is Elementary 3000 on the trailer, ready for first dive tomorrow, There is room for the tender on the trailer as well. This dive is to confirm balance and buoyancy. Next week I intend to install Gamma's 7 function manipulator with external hyd pump and valve. Hank On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 5:03 PM, xxx xxxxx > wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29042 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 23:14:07 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 03:14:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Elementary 3000 In-Reply-To: <000501d18aeb$a93cb250$fbb616f0$@telus.net> References: <000501d18aeb$a93cb250$fbb616f0$@telus.net> Message-ID: <2066042027.80691.1459394047450.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks' Tim.Hank On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 7:21 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv1482002821 #yiv1482002821 -- _filtered #yiv1482002821 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1482002821 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1482002821 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv1482002821 #yiv1482002821 p.yiv1482002821MsoNormal, #yiv1482002821 li.yiv1482002821MsoNormal, #yiv1482002821 div.yiv1482002821MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv1482002821 a:link, #yiv1482002821 span.yiv1482002821MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1482002821 a:visited, #yiv1482002821 span.yiv1482002821MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1482002821 span.yiv1482002821EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv1482002821 .yiv1482002821MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv1482002821 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv1482002821 div.yiv1482002821WordSection1 {}#yiv1482002821 Looks great, Hank, as has become the Hank norm.? Which sub do you plan on taking to Psubs-con?Tim ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 4:08 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Elementary 3000 ?I tried sending earlier, sorry if this is a duplicate. ?Here is Elementary 3000 on the trailer, ready for first dive tomorrow, There is room for the tender on the trailer as well. ?This dive is to confirm balance and buoyancy. ?Next week I intend to install Gamma's 7 function manipulator with external hyd pump and valve.Hank ?On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 5:03 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 29042 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 30 23:34:12 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 03:34:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics In-Reply-To: <000001d18aeb$5e51ecb0$1af5c610$@telus.net> References: <000001d18aeb$5e51ecb0$1af5c610$@telus.net> Message-ID: <759312662.77875.1459395252560.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,You are planning a diesel engine if I recall. ?Is it in? ?Hank On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 7:21 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv3510203384 #yiv3510203384 -- _filtered #yiv3510203384 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3510203384 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv3510203384 #yiv3510203384 p.yiv3510203384MsoNormal, #yiv3510203384 li.yiv3510203384MsoNormal, #yiv3510203384 div.yiv3510203384MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3510203384 a:link, #yiv3510203384 span.yiv3510203384MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3510203384 a:visited, #yiv3510203384 span.yiv3510203384MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3510203384 span.yiv3510203384EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3510203384 .yiv3510203384MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv3510203384 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv3510203384 div.yiv3510203384WordSection1 {}#yiv3510203384 Excellent work, Brian.? Congratulations. Wishing full success during the depth tests.Tim ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 12:38 PM To: PSubs Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics ?Hi All,???????????????????? Ready for initial testing now.?? Just a few odds and ends to take care of before I put her in the water.?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 01:50:21 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 22:50:21 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics Message-ID: <20160330225021.A02FF802@m0086238.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 02:14:59 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:14:59 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ROV - underwater Message-ID: <20160330231459.5CE52ABE@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 03:25:01 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 07:25:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ROV - underwater In-Reply-To: <20160330231459.5CE52ABE@m0087791.ppops.net> References: <20160330231459.5CE52ABE@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1504008282.166952.1459409101986.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, that's pretty impressive. I have run a 2,200W brushless motor in fresh waterwithout any modifications, but the stator & magnets got some rust & the bearings weredamaged also. The windings are coated, so that's not an issue; it would just be a matterof coating where they join the phase wires. Also?you would need to use?the right bearings & coat the metal?parts.There is a group making an underwater thruster without a housing,?http://www.bluerobotics.com/but the problem I see is that the propeller or forward motion will drive abrasive grit in to the motor which is rotating at high speeds, & will act like a sand blaster & destroy everything.OK for the quad copter that only sits on the bottom most of the time.Cheers Alan From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 7:14 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ROV - underwater I'd like to know what they used to coat the motors,? Epoxy material??https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6oLylDRRM4?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 06:40:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 11:40:55 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics In-Reply-To: <20160330225021.A02FF802@m0086238.ppops.net> References: <20160330225021.A02FF802@m0086238.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian I must confess that when you first sent pictures years ago of the concrete hull, I couldn't understand what you were doing and didn't think it would come to anything. I am glad to be proved wrong! Congratulations, you've gone for something really different and its turned out fantastic! Looking forward to seeing her in the water. Remember to take loads of pics for us... Kind Regards James On 31 March 2016 at 06:50, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > No , Just an empty space at the moment. > > brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 03:34:12 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > You are planning a diesel engine if I recall. Is it in? > Hank > > > On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 7:21 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Excellent work, Brian. Congratulations. Wishing full success during the > depth tests. > Tim > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 30, 2016 12:38 PM > *To:* PSubs > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics > > Hi All, > Ready for initial testing now. Just a few odds and > ends to take care of before I put her in the water. > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 09:12:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:12:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics In-Reply-To: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20160330123822.5CE5B14D@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: <56FD2246.6030708@psubs.org> Nice work, Brian. Congrats! From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 11:07:17 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 08:07:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics Message-ID: <20160331080717.5CE53072@m0087791.ppops.net> James, Jon, Thanks !! --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmarelda pics Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:12:38 -0400 Nice work, Brian. Congrats! _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 16:33:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 20:33:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1481509014.488428.1459456411944.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Youtube video launch attemptHank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 2:29 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: Hank Pronk https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChAdYuGkMinsvhyxp8Yf5eA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 16:39:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 20:39:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1743847638.475760.1459456749356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I did manage to get brave and back my trailer over the drop off enough to lunch. ?This sub is an absolute dream to launch and takes less water than Gamma. ?It is also a dream to load, even better than Gamma! ? The weight is less than I expected and it is very stable at the surface but is poor submerged. ?This is an easy fix, more ballast weight countered with more buoyancy up top. ?So far it is good- can't expect it to be perfect first time with my engineering ;-)Hank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0324.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20107 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 17:31:16 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 00:31:16 +0300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1743847638.475760.1459456749356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1743847638.475760.1459456749356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01A4841E-374D-43DA-9657-63B1ED366AD7@snyderemail.com> Wow! Awesome!! > On Mar 31, 2016, at 11:39 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I did manage to get brave and back my trailer over the drop off enough to lunch. This sub is an absolute dream to launch and takes less water than Gamma. It is also a dream to load, even better than Gamma! The weight is less than I expected and it is very stable at the surface but is poor submerged. This is an easy fix, more ballast weight countered with more buoyancy up top. > So far it is good- can't expect it to be perfect first time with my engineering ;-) > Hank > > On Thursday, March 31, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 17:58:31 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:58:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1481509014.488428.1459456411944.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1481509014.488428.1459456411944.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56FD9D87.5010006@psubs.org> Congrats Hank! Looks great! On 3/31/2016 4:33 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Youtube video launch attempt > Hank > > On Thursday, March 31, 2016 2:29 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > Hank Pronk > > https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChAdYuGkMinsvhyxp8Yf5eA > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 18:09:38 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 22:09:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1743847638.475760.1459456749356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1743847638.475760.1459456749356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1823948113.664848.1459462178293.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Congratulations Hank,did you get in it & dive it or are you fixing the stability issues first?Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 1, 2016 9:39 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: I did manage to get brave and back my trailer over the drop off enough to lunch. ?This sub is an absolute dream to launch and takes less water than Gamma. ?It is also a dream to load, even better than Gamma! ? The weight is less than I expected and it is very stable at the surface but is poor submerged. ?This is an easy fix, more ballast weight countered with more buoyancy up top. ?So far it is good- can't expect it to be perfect first time with my engineering ;-)Hank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0324.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20107 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 18:47:44 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 22:47:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster References: <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> This is the latest iteration.The purpose of the project is to adapt a mass produced brushless DC motormanufactured for the hobby market, to a direct drive low maintenance thrusterpurpose built for submersibles. The motor can run at 2000W continuously butwill probably only need to be run at less than half of that for a reasonableunderwater speed.In this version I have taken all the axial load off the 2 small motor bearings byputting 2 circlips on the propeller shaft either side of the main bearing at the frontof the housing (second circlip not visible in dwg). Also I have used a larger?outer rotary seal to be able to press it against a shoulder. The inner seal sees no pressure differential & is pressed against an internal circlip on one side. Some of the design is dictated by the assembly process. In assembly I will need to first press in the bearing then push through the propeller shaft with the internal clip on. Next assemble the housing then fit the second shaft circlip & finally the seals.The motor is located in the back housing with 4 pins.Alan? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: BLDC Thruster.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 171146 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 19:01:09 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 23:01:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1823948113.664848.1459462178293.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1823948113.664848.1459462178293.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <358609393.570337.1459465269905.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks' Guys.Alan, I could not dive it because the HP air system was?disabled to operate remotely. ? ?I am testing it again Monday with the weights shifted and a couple small MBT leaks fixed etc. Hank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 4:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Congratulations Hank,did you get in it & dive it or are you fixing the stability issues first?Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 1, 2016 9:39 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: I did manage to get brave and back my trailer over the drop off enough to lunch. ?This sub is an absolute dream to launch and takes less water than Gamma. ?It is also a dream to load, even better than Gamma! ? The weight is less than I expected and it is very stable at the surface but is poor submerged. ?This is an easy fix, more ballast weight countered with more buoyancy up top. ?So far it is good- can't expect it to be perfect first time with my engineering ;-)Hank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0324.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20107 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 19:05:15 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:05:15 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Correction, the inner seal is against the shoulder of the housing. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 1/04/2016, at 11:47 am, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > This is the latest iteration. > The purpose of the project is to adapt a mass produced brushless DC motor > manufactured for the hobby market, to a direct drive low maintenance thruster > purpose built for submersibles. The motor can run at 2000W continuously but > will probably only need to be run at less than half of that for a reasonable > underwater speed. > In this version I have taken all the axial load off the 2 small motor bearings by > putting 2 circlips on the propeller shaft either side of the main bearing at the front > of the housing (second circlip not visible in dwg). Also I have used a larger outer > rotary seal to be able to press it against a shoulder. The inner seal sees no pressure differential & is pressed against an internal circlip on one side. > Some of the design is dictated by the assembly process. In assembly I will need to > first press in the bearing then push through the propeller shaft with the internal clip on. > Next assemble the housing then fit the second shaft circlip & finally the seals. > The motor is located in the back housing with 4 pins. > Alan > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 19:06:52 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 23:06:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1647362297.571791.1459465612364.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Looking good! ?you could eliminate that external compensating hose by drilling a horizontal hole to intersect the vertical passage leading to the tube. ?The oil could pass by the?armature and feed the passage leading to the bearing void. Hank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 4:51 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is the latest iteration.The purpose of the project is to adapt a mass produced brushless DC motormanufactured for the hobby market, to a direct drive low maintenance thrusterpurpose built for submersibles. The motor can run at 2000W continuously butwill probably only need to be run at less than half of that for a reasonableunderwater speed.In this version I have taken all the axial load off the 2 small motor bearings byputting 2 circlips on the propeller shaft either side of the main bearing at the frontof the housing (second circlip not visible in dwg). Also I have used a larger?outer rotary seal to be able to press it against a shoulder. The inner seal sees no pressure differential & is pressed against an internal circlip on one side. Some of the design is dictated by the assembly process. In assembly I will need to first press in the bearing then push through the propeller shaft with the internal clip on. Next assemble the housing then fit the second shaft circlip & finally the seals.The motor is located in the back housing with 4 pins.Alan? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 19:23:16 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:23:16 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56fdb15a.1b49620a.12715.45fc@mx.google.com> Alan the inner seal will see all the pressure. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 1 April 2016 11:48 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster This is the latest iteration. The purpose of the project is to adapt a mass produced brushless DC motor manufactured for the hobby market, to a direct drive low maintenance thruster purpose built for submersibles. The motor can run at 2000W continuously but will probably only need to be run at less than half of that for a reasonable underwater speed. In this version I have taken all the axial load off the 2 small motor bearings by putting 2 circlips on the propeller shaft either side of the main bearing at the front of the housing (second circlip not visible in dwg). Also I have used a larger outer rotary seal to be able to press it against a shoulder. The inner seal sees no pressure differential & is pressed against an internal circlip on one side. Some of the design is dictated by the assembly process. In assembly I will need to first press in the bearing then push through the propeller shaft with the internal clip on. Next assemble the housing then fit the second shaft circlip & finally the seals. The motor is located in the back housing with 4 pins. Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 19:30:55 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:30:55 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <1647362297.571791.1459465612364.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1647362297.571791.1459465612364.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Not a bad idea. I could run horizontally from the air bleed passage above the shaft. As the water will sink in the oil it won't go up there hopefully, although with the shafts rotation I am not sure if any water will emulsify in the oil. Will depend on the oil to a large degree. I will still retain a small portion of clear tube underneath as an indicator with a drain plug. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 1/04/2016, at 12:06 pm, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Looking good! you could eliminate that external compensating hose by drilling a horizontal hole to intersect the vertical passage leading to the tube. The oil could pass by the armature and feed the passage leading to the bearing void. > > Hank > > > On Thursday, March 31, 2016 4:51 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > This is the latest iteration. > The purpose of the project is to adapt a mass produced brushless DC motor > manufactured for the hobby market, to a direct drive low maintenance thruster > purpose built for submersibles. The motor can run at 2000W continuously but > will probably only need to be run at less than half of that for a reasonable > underwater speed. > In this version I have taken all the axial load off the 2 small motor bearings by > putting 2 circlips on the propeller shaft either side of the main bearing at the front > of the housing (second circlip not visible in dwg). Also I have used a larger outer > rotary seal to be able to press it against a shoulder. The inner seal sees no pressure differential & is pressed against an internal circlip on one side. > Some of the design is dictated by the assembly process. In assembly I will need to > first press in the bearing then push through the propeller shaft with the internal clip on. > Next assemble the housing then fit the second shaft circlip & finally the seals. > The motor is located in the back housing with 4 pins. > Alan > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 19:35:49 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:35:49 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <56fdb15a.1b49620a.12715.45fc@mx.google.com> References: <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56fdb15a.1b49620a.12715.45fc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hugh, it will see it equally from both sides. The system is oil filled & compensated with air pressure further up the wiring tube, the oil will extend up the wiring tube & fill all the housing cavities in case this isn't clear. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 1/04/2016, at 12:23 pm, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the inner seal will see all the pressure. Hugh > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 1 April 2016 11:48 a.m. > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster > > This is the latest iteration. > The purpose of the project is to adapt a mass produced brushless DC motor > manufactured for the hobby market, to a direct drive low maintenance thruster > purpose built for submersibles. The motor can run at 2000W continuously but > will probably only need to be run at less than half of that for a reasonable > underwater speed. > In this version I have taken all the axial load off the 2 small motor bearings by > putting 2 circlips on the propeller shaft either side of the main bearing at the front > of the housing (second circlip not visible in dwg). Also I have used a larger outer > rotary seal to be able to press it against a shoulder. The inner seal sees no pressure differential & is pressed against an internal circlip on one side. > Some of the design is dictated by the assembly process. In assembly I will need to > first press in the bearing then push through the propeller shaft with the internal clip on. > Next assemble the housing then fit the second shaft circlip & finally the seals. > The motor is located in the back housing with 4 pins. > Alan > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 20:23:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 13:23:58 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: References: <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56fdb15a.1b49620a.12715.45fc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <56fdbf92.c35a420a.e405b.5790@mx.google.com> So is the oil around the armature as well as between the seals? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 1 April 2016 12:36 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster Hugh, it will see it equally from both sides. The system is oil filled & compensated with air pressure further up the wiring tube, the oil will extend up the wiring tube & fill all the housing cavities in case this isn't clear. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 1/04/2016, at 12:23 pm, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the inner seal will see all the pressure. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 1 April 2016 11:48 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster This is the latest iteration. The purpose of the project is to adapt a mass produced brushless DC motor manufactured for the hobby market, to a direct drive low maintenance thruster purpose built for submersibles. The motor can run at 2000W continuously but will probably only need to be run at less than half of that for a reasonable underwater speed. In this version I have taken all the axial load off the 2 small motor bearings by putting 2 circlips on the propeller shaft either side of the main bearing at the front of the housing (second circlip not visible in dwg). Also I have used a larger outer rotary seal to be able to press it against a shoulder. The inner seal sees no pressure differential & is pressed against an internal circlip on one side. Some of the design is dictated by the assembly process. In assembly I will need to first press in the bearing then push through the propeller shaft with the internal clip on. Next assemble the housing then fit the second shaft circlip & finally the seals. The motor is located in the back housing with 4 pins. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 20:51:58 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 00:51:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster In-Reply-To: <56fdbf92.c35a420a.e405b.5790@mx.google.com> References: <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1203462794.681398.1459464464643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56fdb15a.1b49620a.12715.45fc@mx.google.com> <56fdbf92.c35a420a.e405b.5790@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <322309819.810255.1459471919025.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Yes, all oil compensated.It will help transfer the heat off the coils.I haven't finalized the oil & viscosity. I will run it out of the water with no load& see what amps it draws & compare that with differing viscosities of oil.I know I have seen figures on this site of 3 cst used in compensating oil, butdocuments I have read on oil compensated water pumps had 20 cst. Alsoon talking to the bearing engineer, he had concerns that the bearings would not float on a low viscosity oil & wear out quickly with metal to metal contact.Cheers Alan From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Friday, April 1, 2016 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster #yiv0542981940 #yiv0542981940 -- _filtered #yiv0542981940 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0542981940 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0542981940 {font-family:helveticaneue;panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}#yiv0542981940 #yiv0542981940 p.yiv0542981940MsoNormal, #yiv0542981940 li.yiv0542981940MsoNormal, #yiv0542981940 div.yiv0542981940MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0542981940 a:link, #yiv0542981940 span.yiv0542981940MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0542981940 a:visited, #yiv0542981940 span.yiv0542981940MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0542981940 p.yiv0542981940MsoAcetate, #yiv0542981940 li.yiv0542981940MsoAcetate, #yiv0542981940 div.yiv0542981940MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv0542981940 span.yiv0542981940EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0542981940 span.yiv0542981940EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0542981940 span.yiv0542981940BalloonTextChar {}#yiv0542981940 .yiv0542981940MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv0542981940 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv0542981940 div.yiv0542981940WordSection1 {}#yiv0542981940 So is the oil around the armature as well as between the seals?? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 1 April 2016 12:36 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster ?Hugh,it will see it equally from both sides. The system is oil filled & compensated with airpressure further up the wiring tube, the oil will extend up the wiring tube & fill all thehousing cavities in case this isn't clear.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 1/04/2016, at 12:23 pm, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the inner seal will see all the pressure.? Hugh?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 1 April 2016 11:48 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MK 2 Brushless Thruster?This is the latest iteration.The purpose of the project is to adapt a mass produced brushless DC motormanufactured for the hobby market, to a direct drive low maintenance thrusterpurpose built for submersibles. The motor can run at 2000W continuously butwill probably only need to be run at less than half of that for a reasonableunderwater speed.In this version I have taken all the axial load off the 2 small motor bearings byputting 2 circlips on the propeller shaft either side of the main bearing at the frontof the housing (second circlip not visible in dwg). Also I have used a larger?outer rotary seal to be able to press it against a shoulder. The inner seal sees no pressure differential & is pressed against an internal circlip on one side. Some of the design is dictated by the assembly process. In assembly I will need to first press in the bearing then push through the propeller shaft with the internal clip on. Next assemble the housing then fit the second shaft circlip & finally the seals.The motor is located in the back housing with 4 pins.Alan??? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 20:59:47 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:59:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <1743847638.475760.1459456749356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1743847638.475760.1459456749356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000501d18bb1$cb9ad810$62d08830$@telus.net> Did you weld skid runners from the wheel wells to the front of the trailer, Hank? Either way, it looked from the video that you needed to submerge the differential to launch the sub. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 1:39 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: I did manage to get brave and back my trailer over the drop off enough to lunch. This sub is an absolute dream to launch and takes less water than Gamma. It is also a dream to load, even better than Gamma! The weight is less than I expected and it is very stable at the surface but is poor submerged. This is an easy fix, more ballast weight countered with more buoyancy up top. So far it is good- can't expect it to be perfect first time with my engineering ;-) Hank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx > wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20107 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 21:29:08 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 01:29:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <000501d18bb1$cb9ad810$62d08830$@telus.net> References: <000501d18bb1$cb9ad810$62d08830$@telus.net> Message-ID: <405536931.624394.1459474148404.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Tim,I did not weld runners on, but I remember we talked about it. ?I only had to back in?until my axel tubes were touching. ?The trailer drops off real fast when you go off the end of the concrete pad. ?;-)Hank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 6:59 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv4904693127 #yiv4904693127 -- _filtered #yiv4904693127 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4904693127 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4904693127 {font-family:helveticaneue;}#yiv4904693127 #yiv4904693127 p.yiv4904693127MsoNormal, #yiv4904693127 li.yiv4904693127MsoNormal, #yiv4904693127 div.yiv4904693127MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv4904693127 a:link, #yiv4904693127 span.yiv4904693127MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4904693127 a:visited, #yiv4904693127 span.yiv4904693127MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4904693127 span.yiv4904693127EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv4904693127 .yiv4904693127MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv4904693127 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv4904693127 div.yiv4904693127WordSection1 {}#yiv4904693127 Did you weld skid runners from the wheel wells to the front of the trailer, Hank?? Either way, it looked from the video that you needed to submerge the differential to launch the sub.Tim ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 1:39 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: ?I did manage to get brave and back my trailer over the drop off enough to lunch. ?This sub is an absolute dream to launch and takes less water than Gamma. ?It is also a dream to load, even better than Gamma! ? The weight is less than I expected and it is very stable at the surface but is poor submerged. ?This is an easy fix, more ballast weight countered with more buoyancy up top. ?So far it is good- can't expect it to be perfect first time with my engineering ;-)HankOn Thursday, March 31, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 20107 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 22:37:28 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:37:28 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <405536931.624394.1459474148404.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <000501d18bb1$cb9ad810$62d08830$@telus.net> <405536931.624394.1459474148404.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000501d18bbf$6f7fdcc0$4e7f9640$@telus.net> Sounds like it worked out well enough, Hank. Looking forward to the next video. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 6:29 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Tim, I did not weld runners on, but I remember we talked about it. I only had to back in until my axel tubes were touching. The trailer drops off real fast when you go off the end of the concrete pad. ;-) Hank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 6:59 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Did you weld skid runners from the wheel wells to the front of the trailer, Hank? Either way, it looked from the video that you needed to submerge the differential to launch the sub. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 1:39 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: I did manage to get brave and back my trailer over the drop off enough to lunch. This sub is an absolute dream to launch and takes less water than Gamma. It is also a dream to load, even better than Gamma! The weight is less than I expected and it is very stable at the surface but is poor submerged. This is an easy fix, more ballast weight countered with more buoyancy up top. So far it is good- can't expect it to be perfect first time with my engineering ;-) Hank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx > wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20107 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 22:55:42 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:55:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Message-ID: <20160331195542.9B2209F5@m0087793.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 31 23:36:34 2016 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 03:36:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <20160331195542.9B2209F5@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20160331195542.9B2209F5@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: <981419774.680536.1459481794267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Brian,Yes it floats great, nice and level-could use more free board but not a?biggy. ?I have a plan to improve that.Hank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 8:55 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? Were you able to float it??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 23:01:09 +0000 (UTC) Thanks' Guys.Alan, I could not dive it because the HP air system was?disabled to operate remotely. ? ?I am testing it again Monday with the weights shifted and a couple small MBT leaks fixed etc. Hank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 4:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Congratulations Hank,did you get in it & dive it or are you fixing the stability issues first?Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 1, 2016 9:39 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: I did manage to get brave and back my trailer over the drop off enough to lunch. ?This sub is an absolute dream to launch and takes less water than Gamma. ?It is also a dream to load, even better than Gamma! ? The weight is less than I expected and it is very stable at the surface but is poor submerged. ?This is an easy fix, more ballast weight countered with more buoyancy up top. ?So far it is good- can't expect it to be perfect first time with my engineering ;-)Hank On Thursday, March 31, 2016 2:32 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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