[PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers

Fri May 6 12:49:08 EDT 2016

A couple of reasons... After chewing on this and hearing feedback from you
guys, what I would like from a UI perspective is a combination of Alan's
"tractor control" and what I had in Snoopy.

Let's start with the stern thrusters, for which I really like the "tractor
control" paradigm. We considered a pair of small single axis joysticks for
the stern thrusters. One shortcoming is that they have only 20 or 25
degrees of movement each forward or aft of center. As they're small, and
the full throttle gets applied over those 25 degrees, it could be a bit too
sensitive. In addition, I would like the control not to have any spring
return so that the boat keeps going and I can momentarily take my hands off
the controls. We did find a mini-joystick without spring return, but it
only had 20 degree range. The pots I used on Snoopy had 270 degrees. Like
in Snoopy, what we would do is mount these on the sides (not top) of the
control box, and put handles on them rather than knobs. We would mount them
so the handles are vertical in the dead zone, and if we can add some sort
of mechanical clicker to indicate that position. Like in Snoopy, the pots
will have O rings on the shafts.

The side thrusters are a bit trickier. On Snoopy I used to dive positive
and used one of the pots to throttle both side thrusters simultaneously. It
worked like a charm, it was like having a "depth control." But on the new
sub the side thrusters are angled outward, so we will want differential
throttling in order to crab, even though I expect crabbing to be relatively
rare. From a UI perspective my first choice would have been to control the
side thrusters with two parallel slider pots. I would align them right next
to each other on the face of the control box, facing fore-aft. For downward
thrust slide both down together, for surfacing thrust slide them up. In my
experience the side thruster settings are much more static than the stern
thrusters, you don't change depth as much as you change direction
horizontally. In the rare event you need to crab this is a bit
counter-intuitive but you would move the sliders in opposite directions.
However, there is a fatal flaw in that plan - we could not find any sliders
that are IP66 or IP67 rated, and it's a basic requirement that the control
box should survive a direct hit by a wave, or even being dropped in the
ocean. We looked at thumb-wheels, which would be almost as nice as the
sliders, but those too have watertightness issues. So at the moment the
thinking is to use the same trick as for the stern thrusters, but with
really tiny handles and the pots perhaps in a small box mounted on top of
the main control box. If anyone has any suggestions for something more
intuitive that is watertight, I'm all ears! This has been a very valuable
discussion thread to me, I really appreciate the input.

Thanks,

Alec

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Alec, why not use off the conventional  2 or thee axis joys sticks rather
> than individually controlling 4 potentiometers connected to motor
> controllers?  It is very easy to have the joysticks act like the pots that
> are hard wired on the MK controller boards.  Just cut the pots off.  Three
> wires are left, 5V supply, signal and ground.  Each of the axis on a
> joystick is typically something like a hall affect potentiometer so you
> send it 5v and get back as signal a between 0-5vdc signal.
> I know KISS principle is important to you but this is very KISS.  You
> don't need a PLC.
>
> Cliff
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Cliff,
>>
>> It appears the MK controller will do just what I need it to, but there is
>> one detail that has be a bit concerned. From what I see it appears the main
>> motor current is all going through a single spade connector. Close to 50
>> amps through one of those little guys is a lot, and the connectors
>> themselves don't take very fat cables. Have you had any issues with that?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Alec
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:38 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> http://m.ebay.com/itm/MINN-KOTA-TRAXXIS-TROLLING-MOTOR-MAIN-CONTROL-BOARD-PN-2184017-OR-2184027-/371336409933
>>>
>>> Standard part that can be ordered just about everywhere.  Shows up on
>>> eBay quite often.  MK part no.  is 2184017.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cliff Redus
>>>
>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the
>>> MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and
>>> have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old)
>>> but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters.
>>>> They have worked great.  They are potted and rugged.  They have an internal
>>>> relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage.  This means that
>>>> absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered
>>>> up while in the garage.
>>>>
>>>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from
>>>> Curtis.  This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was
>>>> irritating.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cliff Redus
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What did Cliff use?
>>>> He has been through this process recently with a 101.
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>>>
>>>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the
>>>> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm
>>>> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems
>>>> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more
>>>> advanced  dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel
>>>> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one
>>>> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks guys for all the input!
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Alec,
>>>> that one says brushless?
>>>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests.....
>>>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR?
>>>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the
>>>> controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.
>>>>    I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller
>>>> whose continual
>>>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.
>>>>    I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some
>>>> manufacturers over rate
>>>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, &
>>>> their ratings accurate,
>>>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday &
>>>> the ON light
>>>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the
>>>> pre-ignition resister
>>>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM
>>>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton
>>>> over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from
>>>> Roboteq:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file
>>>>
>>>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters.
>>>> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still
>>>> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less
>>>> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous
>>>> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A).
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to
>>>> consider?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
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