From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 1 00:13:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 00:13:53 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fluid Film Compensation Message-ID: <102792.2441468.46108301@aol.com> Below is an email from Andr? a little over four years ago in case you missed it. Does anyone have any updated info? Fluid Film is produced by Eureka Chemical company in South San Francisco, California, and is distributed in the USA by Grainger. http://www.fluid-film.com/ -JT In a message dated 2/12/2013 3:10:18 A.M. Central Standard Time, a.erikse at gmail.com writes: If you are not familiar with Fluid Film, I would recommend you try it out! We have recently started using it Offshore on our ROV systems, and this stuff is amazing. It`s a anti-corrosion rust preventer, rust arrester, lubricant and penetrant that replaces all our CRC products. I tested it out on a rusty surface on one of the ROV thruster, and some days later after many dives.. the rust was completly gone, just a clean metal surface left. "It`s being used by the US Defence Force, including use by the Navy on the nuclear submarines, by Sikorsky Helicopters and by Boeing on the space shuttle" http://www.mixmed.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Item id=52 Perfect for our little submersibles :-) -Andr? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 1 13:12:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 10:12:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fluid Film Compensation Message-ID: <20170401101204.FE813932@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 1 13:22:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 10:22:11 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts Message-ID: <20170401102211.FE81398E@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 1 15:24:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 09:24:29 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM In-Reply-To: <9DBCDA8B-64C9-4F3E-B669-BA144B16EB83@yahoo.com> References: <39f39.888d26a.460e44f4@aol.com> <9DBCDA8B-64C9-4F3E-B669-BA144B16EB83@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, I have plenty of time before i need lights so no hurry. I just kinda wanted to get a complete LED system down so I would know what size to start fabricating my housings. I still would like to go with LED as they last longer and are brighter than the incandescent bulbs but I have no concept of drivers or step up or PWM's so it is a bit frustrating. The guy in California that I mentioned was an electrical engineer and knows this stuff inside and out so I'll see if I can pick his brain a bit more and see if he has any interest in making lights for us Psubs guys Rick. On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > how soon do you need to get your lights done? > I bought a few step up / step down constant current drivers that can > handle > a 100W LED. But no pwm dimming on them. > Looking at them, you can do as Alec suggested & de-solder the trim pots & > replace with wire to a potentiometer. You could use a certain sized > resister in > line to stop you dialling in more current than you need. > I could play around with one & let you know how it goes if you like. > I am using 80W LEDs & get plenty of light from them driving them at 70W. > My LEDs are the latest flip chip technology, that keep cooler out front. > They are smaller than other comparable Watt LEDs enabling a smaller housing > & thinner lens for the same depth. > Alan > > > > My lights are having pwm dimming put on an led step driver tailored to my > voltage. They said it was not that simple to add pwm dimming control. > There is the > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 1/04/2017, at 3:25 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, > > Yes, you need to match them and the assortment of drivers is quite > bewildering. I knew nothing of this myself just a couple of weeks ago, so > I'll try and summarize my selection logic but if anyone more knowledgeable > finds me in error, please do jump in. I haven't even received my drivers > yet, so my choice is untested. > > Generally these drivers are either "step up" or "step down" devices, > meaning that they take the battery bank voltage and adjust it upward or > downward depending on the voltage required for your specific LED. Not all > LEDs of the same output have the same voltage requirement, so I can't > provide a standard voltage for 10K lights and you will need to look that up > on your LED specs. In most cases it should be clear which of those two > varieties of drive you need, so deciding whether you need a step up or a > step down driver I would say is the first cut at narrowing your choices. In > my case I had an odd situation, because the battery bank voltage was very > close to the LED voltage, and since the battery voltage will drop under > load and with discharge, I could find myself crossing the threshold from > stepping down to stepping up. There are a very few drivers that can step in > either direction as needed, but I did find a few. > > To summarize then... Once narrowed down to step-up or step-down type, the > next thing is to look at is voltage ranges. Each driver will have an input > voltage range, which needs to cover your possible battery voltages, and it > will have an output range, which needs to cover the LED spec voltage. This > latter voltage is constant. > > Then finally, there's a choice of driver current capacity. This is a > measure of how much power the driver can handle without burning out. Your > LED will tell you how many amps it consumes. A sub in the tropics is a hot > and humid environment with minimal ventilation, so I'm inclined to pick a > driver that is way over-rated to prevent it from heating up much. Bear in > mind you can also drive multiple lights off one driver if their combined > current is within the driver's current capacity. > > As for dimming capacity, most drivers seem to have two pots, one for > output voltage and the other for output current. These controls should > allow you to dim the lights, but from what I saw they are typically small > components on the board, and not something intended for manipulation by the > end user on the fly. It may be you could replace a miniature trim pot with > one on a cable, mounted on the face of your enclosure, but you would also > need to be careful with the adjustment range. You would not want a knob > that burns out your lights if you turn it a little too far. > > Hope that helps, but realistically you might find it'll take a day or two > of research to narrow things down. > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 1:49 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Thanks Jim and Alec, >> >> Do i have to be concerned about matching the PWM to the specific LED >> array I buy as there are so many out there. If so, can someone help me do >> the match up as I have NO electrical back ground. I do want to be able to >> dim the lights from 10,000 lumans down as much as I want as there will be >> times where I won't need that much and it will also be a power savings on >> my 36 V battery bank for my thrusters. >> >> Rick >> >> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 1:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Rick, >>> >>> LEDs need a driver board to supply them with constant voltage and >>> current, and Cliff's design includes an on-board PCB, inside the light >>> itself, that does just that. The heat is dissipated by the housing, which >>> is aluminum and has cooling grooves. Personally I opted for a larger off >>> the shelf driver that will go inside the sub, because I didn't have much >>> ability to solder the surface mount components and didn't have the need to >>> miniaturize that was one of Cliff's design priorities. There are lots of >>> drivers available, and I got mine on eBay like so many other components of >>> the sub. This driver has a heat sink, but I don't expect it to heat up much >>> at all. See eBay item 302203712954. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 7:24 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Rick, >>>> He was referring to a Pulse Width Modulator to adjust the amount of >>>> power going to the lights. >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> In a message dated 3/29/2017 11:29:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >>>> >>>> Alec, >>>> >>>> I just met a guy in California that made his own underwater housing and >>>> LED lighting system for doing video and he is using an LED board that is >>>> about 3" square. He has built a PWM for it so he can dim it down and says >>>> it's a 10,000 luman 100 watt system that runs on 32 volts. >>>> I don't know what a PWM is but he said that I didn't necessarily have >>>> to have one. I can step my thruster motor supply down from 36V but one of >>>> my concerns is how to get rid of the heat. He didn't seem to be too >>>> forthcoming with the system he built. I think the LED array was something >>>> like $15 each on Amazon. How are you controlling the heat in your housings >>>> and do you think I would need a PWM for my lite? >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> My lights are done, I put them on Shackleton earlier today and they >>>>> are wired through the hull with penetrators. However, the wires end inside >>>>> the hull because I'm waiting for the drives to arrive, which will be >>>>> installed inside the sub. I was able to test them with a lab type power >>>>> supply on a table top, and must say these Bridgelux leds are like a little >>>>> sun in a can, I love them. These two lights I made are 5K lumens, and I >>>>> already have 10K lumen Bridgeluxes which I bought by mistake. So I'll test >>>>> these, and probably make another set with those more powerful ones. If I >>>>> do, the 10Ks will be the forward lights and the 5Ks will be oriented out to >>>>> the sides for "peripheral vision". A dimmable driver is sounding like a >>>>> good idea, or maybe just sunglasses! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:10 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Hank, >>>>>> Alec has been making good progress with Cliff's light. >>>>>> Last I heard 2 housings were being anodised. >>>>>> Any update Cliff / Alec ? >>>>>> Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> You will be our go to guy for lighting! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:15 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Still building lights Hank, >>>>>> have built a couple of housings but are doing a third revision & >>>>>> hopefully this one will be perfect. I am pretty happy with how it's >>>>>> going. >>>>>> Am getting a different LED driver made up with PWM dimming. >>>>>> Got off the motor project temporarily as my brother wanted one of >>>>>> the lights for his boat. ? >>>>>> Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 12:35 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Alan, >>>>>> Are you back to work on your motor? or are you still building >>>>>> lights? >>>>>> Hank >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:44 PM, hank pronk via >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks' Greg >>>>>> >>>>>> Alan, my answer is who cares if some water gets between the seals. >>>>>> The important part is to keep the oil inside the motor. When the motor >>>>>> starts up at the surface, there is significant centrical force that pushes >>>>>> the oil out with the seal in its original orientation. I should actually >>>>>> remove one of the seals and just have one seal holding oil in, just like a >>>>>> submersible well pump has. Those pumps are VERY reliable. Now having said >>>>>> all this, I could be wrong ;-) Stay tuned for test results. >>>>>> Hank >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:31 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> How are you doing that Hank? >>>>>> Are you compensating the gap between the two seals? >>>>>> Otherwise you are in the same situation as the Minn kota motors >>>>>> where one of the two seals will fail when you go beyond it's depth >>>>>> rating. >>>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 10:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Greg, >>>>>> Good points, but I personally am not ready to give up on oil >>>>>> filling. I have reversed one of the two seals in my new motors for >>>>>> Elementary. One seal keeps the oil in and one seal keeps the water out. I >>>>>> am confident this in addition to the compensation system will make for a >>>>>> clean leak proof set up. The ice is off the lake by my house, so my test >>>>>> lake should be open in a week or so. I will know then if my idea works. >>>>>> Hank >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:03 AM, james cottrell via >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have to say, I no longer think that WD40 is the best for >>>>>> compensating things underwater. Over time it causes plastics and rubber to >>>>>> harden and become brittle. >>>>>> Silicone oil is better but the other problem with oil compensation in >>>>>> general is that the smallest drop/leak makes a very visible oil slick >>>>>> around your sub (not good). Most guys are using trolling motors and they're >>>>>> not really tight enough to hold thin oil without leaks. >>>>>> Back in the 90s I was using air compensation- and it actually worked >>>>>> really well. As far as I know, Karl Stanley has also been using air >>>>>> compensation for a long time without problems. >>>>>> It's a clean system that's not hard to set up and a small bottle of >>>>>> air lasts for many dives. >>>>>> >>>>>> Greg C >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 28, 2017 12:55 PM >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>> >>>>>> On a brushless motor it will maybe work with mineral oil. >>>>>> On motors with brushes I have bad expierence with that. >>>>>> Mineral oil is a big problem in a lake if a motor is even a little >>>>>> untight. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>>>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>> Datum: 2017-03-28T17:15:59+0200 >>>>>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Carsten, >>>>>> I did a small test trying to light the WD40 >>>>>> on fire. It's not as flammable as I thought it would be. I think they >>>>>> have improved it's non-flammability with new formulation. It's still >>>>>> somewhat flammable however. >>>>>> I will be using a light mineral oil in my motors. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:22:02 +0200 (MEST) >>>>>> >>>>>> Heat Vapor is may a problem with WD40. >>>>>> May ensure that the compensating back is big to handle that.. >>>>>> We change to silicon oil for that reason. >>>>>> >>>>>> vbr Carsten >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>>>> Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>> Datum: 2017-03-28T04:56:46+0200 >>>>>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>> An: "PSubs" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I just ran one of my motors filled with the WD40. It seemed to be >>>>>> very happy. I mainly just did it to clean the carbon build up out of the >>>>>> motor. I was surprised how sealed the motor was, it is open at one end >>>>>> where it mates to the gear box. I was able to fill it up without it >>>>>> leaking out anywhere. That could be an issue later when I want the mineral >>>>>> oil to fill all the voids. I might need to actually drill some holes to >>>>>> get some circulation . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> ? >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 1 17:12:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 09:12:26 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM In-Reply-To: References: <39f39.888d26a.460e44f4@aol.com> <9DBCDA8B-64C9-4F3E-B669-BA144B16EB83@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Rick, I have a good source of information on LEDs. These high powered COB (chip on board) LEDs are a reasonably recent & evolving innovation. They are a number of 1Watt LEDs on a board (COB) Normally configured 10 x 5 for 50W, 10 x 6 for 60W etc. I have tested one to 2000psi; so they can be oil compensated & take the pressure. As Alec has said, they need a constant current driver, as they suck more & more current as they get hotter & burn themselves out. They are reasonably Voltage tolerant. I ran a 38V LED at 90 V briefly by mistake & it survived. There are more & more LED drivers coming on the market. I bought some step / up, step / down constant current drivers for $12- each off Aliexpress. The LEDs need to be screwed down to a heat sink, with heat sink paste. If they aren't screwed down well they can burn out. As for PWM dimming; I am getting a unit made up with PWM, & they said the dimming wasn't as easy as just replacing the trim pot with a length of wire & potentiometer. However I will test that out & see what the dimming is like. Anyway, I will post something when I have my unit with new controller up & running; & Alec will have Cliff's Psub design going in the near future. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 2/04/2017, at 7:24 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > I have plenty of time before i need lights so no hurry. I just kinda wanted to get a complete LED system down so I would know what size to start fabricating my housings. I still would like to go with LED as they last longer and are brighter than the incandescent bulbs but I have no concept of drivers or step up or PWM's so it is a bit frustrating. The guy in California that I mentioned was an electrical engineer and knows this stuff inside and out so I'll see if I can pick his brain a bit more and see if he has any interest in making lights for us Psubs guys > > Rick. > >> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Rick, >> how soon do you need to get your lights done? >> I bought a few step up / step down constant current drivers that can handle >> a 100W LED. But no pwm dimming on them. >> Looking at them, you can do as Alec suggested & de-solder the trim pots & >> replace with wire to a potentiometer. You could use a certain sized resister in >> line to stop you dialling in more current than you need. >> I could play around with one & let you know how it goes if you like. >> I am using 80W LEDs & get plenty of light from them driving them at 70W. >> My LEDs are the latest flip chip technology, that keep cooler out front. >> They are smaller than other comparable Watt LEDs enabling a smaller housing >> & thinner lens for the same depth. >> Alan >> >> >> >> My lights are having pwm dimming put on an led step driver tailored to my >> voltage. They said it was not that simple to add pwm dimming control. >> There is the >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 1/04/2017, at 3:25 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Rick, >>> >>> Yes, you need to match them and the assortment of drivers is quite bewildering. I knew nothing of this myself just a couple of weeks ago, so I'll try and summarize my selection logic but if anyone more knowledgeable finds me in error, please do jump in. I haven't even received my drivers yet, so my choice is untested. >>> >>> Generally these drivers are either "step up" or "step down" devices, meaning that they take the battery bank voltage and adjust it upward or downward depending on the voltage required for your specific LED. Not all LEDs of the same output have the same voltage requirement, so I can't provide a standard voltage for 10K lights and you will need to look that up on your LED specs. In most cases it should be clear which of those two varieties of drive you need, so deciding whether you need a step up or a step down driver I would say is the first cut at narrowing your choices. In my case I had an odd situation, because the battery bank voltage was very close to the LED voltage, and since the battery voltage will drop under load and with discharge, I could find myself crossing the threshold from stepping down to stepping up. There are a very few drivers that can step in either direction as needed, but I did find a few. >>> >>> To summarize then... Once narrowed down to step-up or step-down type, the next thing is to look at is voltage ranges. Each driver will have an input voltage range, which needs to cover your possible battery voltages, and it will have an output range, which needs to cover the LED spec voltage. This latter voltage is constant. >>> >>> Then finally, there's a choice of driver current capacity. This is a measure of how much power the driver can handle without burning out. Your LED will tell you how many amps it consumes. A sub in the tropics is a hot and humid environment with minimal ventilation, so I'm inclined to pick a driver that is way over-rated to prevent it from heating up much. Bear in mind you can also drive multiple lights off one driver if their combined current is within the driver's current capacity. >>> >>> As for dimming capacity, most drivers seem to have two pots, one for output voltage and the other for output current. These controls should allow you to dim the lights, but from what I saw they are typically small components on the board, and not something intended for manipulation by the end user on the fly. It may be you could replace a miniature trim pot with one on a cable, mounted on the face of your enclosure, but you would also need to be careful with the adjustment range. You would not want a knob that burns out your lights if you turn it a little too far. >>> >>> Hope that helps, but realistically you might find it'll take a day or two of research to narrow things down. >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 1:49 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Thanks Jim and Alec, >>>> >>>> Do i have to be concerned about matching the PWM to the specific LED array I buy as there are so many out there. If so, can someone help me do the match up as I have NO electrical back ground. I do want to be able to dim the lights from 10,000 lumans down as much as I want as there will be times where I won't need that much and it will also be a power savings on my 36 V battery bank for my thrusters. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 1:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> Hi Rick, >>>>> >>>>> LEDs need a driver board to supply them with constant voltage and current, and Cliff's design includes an on-board PCB, inside the light itself, that does just that. The heat is dissipated by the housing, which is aluminum and has cooling grooves. Personally I opted for a larger off the shelf driver that will go inside the sub, because I didn't have much ability to solder the surface mount components and didn't have the need to miniaturize that was one of Cliff's design priorities. There are lots of drivers available, and I got mine on eBay like so many other components of the sub. This driver has a heat sink, but I don't expect it to heat up much at all. See eBay item 302203712954. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 7:24 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> Rick, >>>>>> He was referring to a Pulse Width Modulator to adjust the amount of power going to the lights. >>>>>> Jim >>>>>> >>>>>> In a message dated 3/29/2017 11:29:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >>>>>> Alec, >>>>>> >>>>>> I just met a guy in California that made his own underwater housing and LED lighting system for doing video and he is using an LED board that is about 3" square. He has built a PWM for it so he can dim it down and says it's a 10,000 luman 100 watt system that runs on 32 volts. >>>>>> I don't know what a PWM is but he said that I didn't necessarily have to have one. I can step my thruster motor supply down from 36V but one of my concerns is how to get rid of the heat. He didn't seem to be too forthcoming with the system he built. I think the LED array was something like $15 each on Amazon. How are you controlling the heat in your housings and do you think I would need a PWM for my lite? >>>>>> >>>>>> Rick >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> My lights are done, I put them on Shackleton earlier today and they are wired through the hull with penetrators. However, the wires end inside the hull because I'm waiting for the drives to arrive, which will be installed inside the sub. I was able to test them with a lab type power supply on a table top, and must say these Bridgelux leds are like a little sun in a can, I love them. These two lights I made are 5K lumens, and I already have 10K lumen Bridgeluxes which I bought by mistake. So I'll test these, and probably make another set with those more powerful ones. If I do, the 10Ks will be the forward lights and the 5Ks will be oriented out to the sides for "peripheral vision". A dimmable driver is sounding like a good idea, or maybe just sunglasses! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:10 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> Thanks Hank, >>>>>>>> Alec has been making good progress with Cliff's light. >>>>>>>> Last I heard 2 housings were being anodised. >>>>>>>> Any update Cliff / Alec ? >>>>>>>> Alan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You will be our go to guy for lighting! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:15 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Still building lights Hank, >>>>>>>>> have built a couple of housings but are doing a third revision & >>>>>>>>> hopefully this one will be perfect. I am pretty happy with how it's going. >>>>>>>>> Am getting a different LED driver made up with PWM dimming. >>>>>>>>> Got off the motor project temporarily as my brother wanted one of >>>>>>>>> the lights for his boat. ? >>>>>>>>> Alan >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 12:35 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Alan, >>>>>>>>>> Are you back to work on your motor? or are you still building lights? >>>>>>>>>> Hank >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:44 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks' Greg >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Alan, my answer is who cares if some water gets between the seals. The important part is to keep the oil inside the motor. When the motor starts up at the surface, there is significant centrical force that pushes the oil out with the seal in its original orientation. I should actually remove one of the seals and just have one seal holding oil in, just like a submersible well pump has. Those pumps are VERY reliable. Now having said all this, I could be wrong ;-) Stay tuned for test results. >>>>>>>>>> Hank >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:31 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> How are you doing that Hank? >>>>>>>>>> Are you compensating the gap between the two seals? >>>>>>>>>> Otherwise you are in the same situation as the Minn kota motors >>>>>>>>>> where one of the two seals will fail when you go beyond it's depth >>>>>>>>>> rating. >>>>>>>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 10:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Greg, >>>>>>>>>>> Good points, but I personally am not ready to give up on oil filling. I have reversed one of the two seals in my new motors for Elementary. One seal keeps the oil in and one seal keeps the water out. I am confident this in addition to the compensation system will make for a clean leak proof set up. The ice is off the lake by my house, so my test lake should be open in a week or so. I will know then if my idea works. >>>>>>>>>>> Hank >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:03 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have to say, I no longer think that WD40 is the best for compensating things underwater. Over time it causes plastics and rubber to harden and become brittle. >>>>>>>>>>> Silicone oil is better but the other problem with oil compensation in general is that the smallest drop/leak makes a very visible oil slick around your sub (not good). Most guys are using trolling motors and they're not really tight enough to hold thin oil without leaks. >>>>>>>>>>> Back in the 90s I was using air compensation- and it actually worked really well. As far as I know, Karl Stanley has also been using air compensation for a long time without problems. >>>>>>>>>>> It's a clean system that's not hard to set up and a small bottle of air lasts for many dives. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Greg C >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>>>>>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 12:55 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On a brushless motor it will maybe work with mineral oil. >>>>>>>>> On motors with brushes I have bad expierence with that. >>>>>>>>> Mineral oil is a big problem in a lake if a motor is even a little untight. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>>>>> Datum: 2017-03-28T17:15:59+0200 >>>>>>>>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>>>>>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Carsten, >>>>>>>>> I did a small test trying to light the WD40 on fire. It's not as flammable as I thought it would be. I think they have improved it's non-flammability with new formulation. It's still somewhat flammable however. >>>>>>>>> I will be using a light mineral oil in my motors. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>>>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:22:02 +0200 (MEST) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Heat Vapor is may a problem with WD40. >>>>>>>>> May ensure that the compensating back is big to handle that.. >>>>>>>>> We change to silicon oil for that reason. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> vbr Carsten >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>>>>>>> Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>>>>> Datum: 2017-03-28T04:56:46+0200 >>>>>>>>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>>>>>> An: "PSubs" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I just ran one of my motors filled with the WD40. It seemed to be very happy. I mainly just did it to clean the carbon build up out of the motor. I was surprised how sealed the motor was, it is open at one end where it mates to the gear box. I was able to fill it up without it leaking out anywhere. That could be an issue later when I want the mineral oil to fill all the voids. I might need to actually drill some holes to get some circulation . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 1 18:29:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 12:29:30 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM In-Reply-To: References: <39f39.888d26a.460e44f4@aol.com> <9DBCDA8B-64C9-4F3E-B669-BA144B16EB83@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Alan, I am going to need some hand holding in this area! Rick On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > I have a good source of information on LEDs. > These high powered COB (chip on board) LEDs are a reasonably recent & > evolving > innovation. They are a number of 1Watt LEDs on a board (COB) Normally > configured > 10 x 5 for 50W, 10 x 6 for 60W etc. I have tested one to 2000psi; so they > can be > oil compensated & take the pressure. > As Alec has said, they need a constant current driver, as they suck more & > more current as they get hotter & burn themselves out. They are reasonably > Voltage tolerant. I ran a 38V LED at 90 V briefly by mistake & it survived. > There are more & more LED drivers coming on the market. I bought some step > / up, > step / down constant current drivers for $12- each off Aliexpress. > The LEDs need to be screwed down to a heat sink, with heat sink paste. If > they > aren't screwed down well they can burn out. > As for PWM dimming; I am getting a unit made up with PWM, & they said the > dimming > wasn't as easy as just replacing the trim pot with a length of wire & > potentiometer. > However I will test that out & see what the dimming is like. > Anyway, I will post something when I have my unit with new controller up & > running; & Alec will have Cliff's Psub design going in the near future. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 2/04/2017, at 7:24 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > I have plenty of time before i need lights so no hurry. I just kinda > wanted to get a complete LED system down so I would know what size to start > fabricating my housings. I still would like to go with LED as they last > longer and are brighter than the incandescent bulbs but I have no concept > of drivers or step up or PWM's so it is a bit frustrating. The guy in > California that I mentioned was an electrical engineer and knows this stuff > inside and out so I'll see if I can pick his brain a bit more and see if he > has any interest in making lights for us Psubs guys > > Rick. > > On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Rick, >> how soon do you need to get your lights done? >> I bought a few step up / step down constant current drivers that can >> handle >> a 100W LED. But no pwm dimming on them. >> Looking at them, you can do as Alec suggested & de-solder the trim pots & >> replace with wire to a potentiometer. You could use a certain sized >> resister in >> line to stop you dialling in more current than you need. >> I could play around with one & let you know how it goes if you like. >> I am using 80W LEDs & get plenty of light from them driving them at >> 70W. >> My LEDs are the latest flip chip technology, that keep cooler out front. >> They are smaller than other comparable Watt LEDs enabling a smaller >> housing >> & thinner lens for the same depth. >> Alan >> >> >> >> My lights are having pwm dimming put on an led step driver tailored to my >> voltage. They said it was not that simple to add pwm dimming control. >> There is the >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 1/04/2017, at 3:25 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Rick, >> >> Yes, you need to match them and the assortment of drivers is quite >> bewildering. I knew nothing of this myself just a couple of weeks ago, so >> I'll try and summarize my selection logic but if anyone more knowledgeable >> finds me in error, please do jump in. I haven't even received my drivers >> yet, so my choice is untested. >> >> Generally these drivers are either "step up" or "step down" devices, >> meaning that they take the battery bank voltage and adjust it upward or >> downward depending on the voltage required for your specific LED. Not all >> LEDs of the same output have the same voltage requirement, so I can't >> provide a standard voltage for 10K lights and you will need to look that up >> on your LED specs. In most cases it should be clear which of those two >> varieties of drive you need, so deciding whether you need a step up or a >> step down driver I would say is the first cut at narrowing your choices. In >> my case I had an odd situation, because the battery bank voltage was very >> close to the LED voltage, and since the battery voltage will drop under >> load and with discharge, I could find myself crossing the threshold from >> stepping down to stepping up. There are a very few drivers that can step in >> either direction as needed, but I did find a few. >> >> To summarize then... Once narrowed down to step-up or step-down type, the >> next thing is to look at is voltage ranges. Each driver will have an input >> voltage range, which needs to cover your possible battery voltages, and it >> will have an output range, which needs to cover the LED spec voltage. This >> latter voltage is constant. >> >> Then finally, there's a choice of driver current capacity. This is a >> measure of how much power the driver can handle without burning out. Your >> LED will tell you how many amps it consumes. A sub in the tropics is a hot >> and humid environment with minimal ventilation, so I'm inclined to pick a >> driver that is way over-rated to prevent it from heating up much. Bear in >> mind you can also drive multiple lights off one driver if their combined >> current is within the driver's current capacity. >> >> As for dimming capacity, most drivers seem to have two pots, one for >> output voltage and the other for output current. These controls should >> allow you to dim the lights, but from what I saw they are typically small >> components on the board, and not something intended for manipulation by the >> end user on the fly. It may be you could replace a miniature trim pot with >> one on a cable, mounted on the face of your enclosure, but you would also >> need to be careful with the adjustment range. You would not want a knob >> that burns out your lights if you turn it a little too far. >> >> Hope that helps, but realistically you might find it'll take a day or two >> of research to narrow things down. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 1:49 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Jim and Alec, >>> >>> Do i have to be concerned about matching the PWM to the specific LED >>> array I buy as there are so many out there. If so, can someone help me do >>> the match up as I have NO electrical back ground. I do want to be able to >>> dim the lights from 10,000 lumans down as much as I want as there will be >>> times where I won't need that much and it will also be a power savings on >>> my 36 V battery bank for my thrusters. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 1:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Rick, >>>> >>>> LEDs need a driver board to supply them with constant voltage and >>>> current, and Cliff's design includes an on-board PCB, inside the light >>>> itself, that does just that. The heat is dissipated by the housing, which >>>> is aluminum and has cooling grooves. Personally I opted for a larger off >>>> the shelf driver that will go inside the sub, because I didn't have much >>>> ability to solder the surface mount components and didn't have the need to >>>> miniaturize that was one of Cliff's design priorities. There are lots of >>>> drivers available, and I got mine on eBay like so many other components of >>>> the sub. This driver has a heat sink, but I don't expect it to heat up much >>>> at all. See eBay item 302203712954. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 7:24 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Rick, >>>>> He was referring to a Pulse Width Modulator to adjust the amount of >>>>> power going to the lights. >>>>> Jim >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 3/29/2017 11:29:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >>>>> >>>>> Alec, >>>>> >>>>> I just met a guy in California that made his own underwater housing >>>>> and LED lighting system for doing video and he is using an LED board that >>>>> is about 3" square. He has built a PWM for it so he can dim it down and >>>>> says it's a 10,000 luman 100 watt system that runs on 32 volts. >>>>> I don't know what a PWM is but he said that I didn't necessarily have >>>>> to have one. I can step my thruster motor supply down from 36V but one of >>>>> my concerns is how to get rid of the heat. He didn't seem to be too >>>>> forthcoming with the system he built. I think the LED array was something >>>>> like $15 each on Amazon. How are you controlling the heat in your housings >>>>> and do you think I would need a PWM for my lite? >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My lights are done, I put them on Shackleton earlier today and they >>>>>> are wired through the hull with penetrators. However, the wires end inside >>>>>> the hull because I'm waiting for the drives to arrive, which will be >>>>>> installed inside the sub. I was able to test them with a lab type power >>>>>> supply on a table top, and must say these Bridgelux leds are like a little >>>>>> sun in a can, I love them. These two lights I made are 5K lumens, and I >>>>>> already have 10K lumen Bridgeluxes which I bought by mistake. So I'll test >>>>>> these, and probably make another set with those more powerful ones. If I >>>>>> do, the 10Ks will be the forward lights and the 5Ks will be oriented out to >>>>>> the sides for "peripheral vision". A dimmable driver is sounding like a >>>>>> good idea, or maybe just sunglasses! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:10 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks Hank, >>>>>>> Alec has been making good progress with Cliff's light. >>>>>>> Last I heard 2 housings were being anodised. >>>>>>> Any update Cliff / Alec ? >>>>>>> Alan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You will be our go to guy for lighting! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:15 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Still building lights Hank, >>>>>>> have built a couple of housings but are doing a third revision & >>>>>>> hopefully this one will be perfect. I am pretty happy with how it's >>>>>>> going. >>>>>>> Am getting a different LED driver made up with PWM dimming. >>>>>>> Got off the motor project temporarily as my brother wanted one of >>>>>>> the lights for his boat. ? >>>>>>> Alan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 12:35 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alan, >>>>>>> Are you back to work on your motor? or are you still building >>>>>>> lights? >>>>>>> Hank >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:44 PM, hank pronk via >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks' Greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alan, my answer is who cares if some water gets between the seals. >>>>>>> The important part is to keep the oil inside the motor. When the motor >>>>>>> starts up at the surface, there is significant centrical force that pushes >>>>>>> the oil out with the seal in its original orientation. I should actually >>>>>>> remove one of the seals and just have one seal holding oil in, just like a >>>>>>> submersible well pump has. Those pumps are VERY reliable. Now having said >>>>>>> all this, I could be wrong ;-) Stay tuned for test results. >>>>>>> Hank >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:31 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How are you doing that Hank? >>>>>>> Are you compensating the gap between the two seals? >>>>>>> Otherwise you are in the same situation as the Minn kota motors >>>>>>> where one of the two seals will fail when you go beyond it's depth >>>>>>> rating. >>>>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 10:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg, >>>>>>> Good points, but I personally am not ready to give up on oil >>>>>>> filling. I have reversed one of the two seals in my new motors for >>>>>>> Elementary. One seal keeps the oil in and one seal keeps the water out. I >>>>>>> am confident this in addition to the compensation system will make for a >>>>>>> clean leak proof set up. The ice is off the lake by my house, so my test >>>>>>> lake should be open in a week or so. I will know then if my idea works. >>>>>>> Hank >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:03 AM, james cottrell via >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have to say, I no longer think that WD40 is the best for >>>>>>> compensating things underwater. Over time it causes plastics and rubber to >>>>>>> harden and become brittle. >>>>>>> Silicone oil is better but the other problem with oil compensation >>>>>>> in general is that the smallest drop/leak makes a very visible oil slick >>>>>>> around your sub (not good). Most guys are using trolling motors and they're >>>>>>> not really tight enough to hold thin oil without leaks. >>>>>>> Back in the 90s I was using air compensation- and it actually worked >>>>>>> really well. As far as I know, Karl Stanley has also been using air >>>>>>> compensation for a long time without problems. >>>>>>> It's a clean system that's not hard to set up and a small bottle of >>>>>>> air lasts for many dives. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg C >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> *From:* "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < >>>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 28, 2017 12:55 PM >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On a brushless motor it will maybe work with mineral oil. >>>>>>> On motors with brushes I have bad expierence with that. >>>>>>> Mineral oil is a big problem in a lake if a motor is even a little >>>>>>> untight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>>>>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>>> Datum: 2017-03-28T17:15:59+0200 >>>>>>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < >>>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >>>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Carsten, >>>>>>> I did a small test trying to light the WD40 >>>>>>> on fire. It's not as flammable as I thought it would be. I think they >>>>>>> have improved it's non-flammability with new formulation. It's still >>>>>>> somewhat flammable however. >>>>>>> I will be using a light mineral oil in my motors. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < >>>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>>> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:22:02 +0200 (MEST) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Heat Vapor is may a problem with WD40. >>>>>>> May ensure that the compensating back is big to handle that.. >>>>>>> We change to silicon oil for that reason. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> vbr Carsten >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>>>>> Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>>> Datum: 2017-03-28T04:56:46+0200 >>>>>>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < >>>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>>>> An: "PSubs" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I just ran one of my motors filled with the WD40. It seemed to be >>>>>>> very happy. I mainly just did it to clean the carbon build up out of the >>>>>>> motor. I was surprised how sealed the motor was, it is open at one end >>>>>>> where it mates to the gear box. I was able to fill it up without it >>>>>>> leaking out anywhere. That could be an issue later when I want the mineral >>>>>>> oil to fill all the voids. I might need to actually drill some holes to >>>>>>> get some circulation . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> ? >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 3 04:40:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 09:40:12 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fluid Film Compensation In-Reply-To: <20170401101204.FE813932@m0087796.ppops.net> References: <20170401101204.FE813932@m0087796.ppops.net> Message-ID: Ive got loads of that. I use it to put inside the variable tank over the winter. I have 2 different ones. A thick one which is a bit like a grease that you can apply to stuff. Then the fluid film itself which is just a liquid. I'll have a look on the barrel and see if there is a cst rating. thanks James On 1 April 2017 at 18:12, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I couldn't find a Cst rating. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fluid Film Compensation > Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 00:13:53 -0400 > > Below is an email from Andr? a little over four years ago in case you > missed it. Does anyone have any updated info? > > Fluid Film is produced by Eureka Chemical company in South San Francisco, > California, and is distributed in the USA by Grainger. > http://www.fluid-film.com/ > -JT > > In a message dated 2/12/2013 3:10:18 A.M. Central Standard Time, > a.erikse at gmail.com writes: > > If you are not familiar with Fluid Film, I would recommend you try it out! > We have recently started using it Offshore on our ROV systems, and this > stuff is amazing. > > It`s a anti-corrosion rust preventer, rust arrester, lubricant and > penetrant that replaces all our CRC products. > > I tested it out on a rusty surface on one of the ROV thruster, and some > days later after many dives.. the rust was completly gone, just a clean > metal surface left. > > "It`s being used by the US Defence Force, including use by the Navy on the > nuclear submarines, by Sikorsky Helicopters and by Boeing on the space > shuttle" > > http://www.mixmed.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view= > article&id=11&Itemid=52 > > Perfect for our little submersibles :-) > > > -Andr? > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 3 11:02:34 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 08:02:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fluid Film Compensation Message-ID: <20170403080234.34141BC7@m0087795.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 3 22:01:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 10:01:20 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fluid Film Compensation In-Reply-To: <20170403080234.34141BC7@m0087795.ppops.net> References: <20170403080234.34141BC7@m0087795.ppops.net> Message-ID: Stuff like this used to be sold in tubes as a long-term preservative (an alternative to Cosmoline). It worked in that capacity, but I don't see how it could remove existing rust. That would require additional ingredients, I think. Pretty sure phosphoric acid would not be compatible with the rest of the formulation... Marc On 4/3/2017 11:02 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > From the data sheet it appears to be a mineral oil combined with > lanolin. Interesting stuff. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fluid Film Compensation > Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 09:40:12 +0100 > > Ive got loads of that. I use it to put inside the variable tank over > the winter. I have 2 different ones. A thick one which is a bit like > a grease that you can apply to stuff. Then the fluid film itself which > is just a liquid. I'll have a look on the barrel and see if there is a > cst rating. > > thanks > James > > On 1 April 2017 at 18:12, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > I couldn't find a Cst rating. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: > > From: via Personal_Submersibles > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fluid Film Compensation > Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 00:13:53 -0400 > > Below is an email from Andr? a little over four years ago in case > you missed it. Does anyone have any updated info? > > Fluid Film is produced by Eureka Chemical company in South San > Francisco, California, and is distributed in the USA by Grainger. > http://www.fluid-film.com/ > -JT > > In a message dated 2/12/2013 3:10:18 A.M. Central Standard Time, > a.erikse at gmail.com writes: > > If you are not familiar with Fluid Film, I would recommend you > try it out! > We have recently started using it Offshore on our ROV systems, > and this stuff is amazing. > > It`s a anti-corrosion rust preventer, rust arrester, lubricant > and penetrant that replaces all our CRC products. > > I tested it out on a rusty surface on one of the ROV thruster, > and some days later after many dives.. the rust was completly > gone, just a clean metal surface left. > > "It`s being used by the US Defence Force, including use by the > Navy on the nuclear submarines, by Sikorsky Helicopters and by > Boeing on the space shuttle" > > http://www.mixmed.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=52 > > Perfect for our little submersibles :-) > > > -Andr? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 3 22:55:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 19:55:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tow Test Message-ID: <20170403195512.33946AB2@m0087792.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 4 21:32:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 18:32:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts In-Reply-To: uMk2cbUG08mABuMk4cYjdf References: uMk2cbUG08mABuMk4cYjdf Message-ID: <003801d2adac$7755fd70$6601f850$@telus.net> Sounds good, Brian. Hank mentioned he may attend. Any others interested in Wiskeytown Lake near Redding CA? Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, April 1, 2017 10:22 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts Tim, I would like very much like to do some sort of convention this summer at Whiskey Lake as I have relatives in Redding and I will most certainly be ready to dive by then. I expect to have my sub operational in a month or two. Even if it's only a west coast deal I'd be up for it. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 23:04:12 -0700 Brian, Approximate date for the convention would be sometime in July or August. It would be determined by those who are planning to attend. I think most of our fleet is near the east coast, but I am just putting this venue out there as potential choice. I think Jim or Jon make the actual decisions. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2017 6:20 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts Tim, What is the approximate date for a convention ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 10:30:56 -0700 This permit was put in place because this lake is a National Park (no submersibles allowed without permit) and a dammed lake for hydro power and there is a risk of submarine vehicles getting mixed up in the power generation equipment. The requirement for a permit is not a "No" but usually requires informing the authorities of the planned activities and getting them approved for the area of operation. I just now got off the phone with Acting Chief Ranger Charlie Hardy. He said that the Sea Breacher subs are built in Redding and that they have a commercial use permit to operate those subs in Wiskeytown Lake. For our convention dive we will need a special use permit, which should be no problem getting approved. Ranger Hardy will email an application for the special use permit. He was most helpful and encouraging with respect to us operating manned submersibles in Wiskeytown Lake. It's not a gorgeous Florida reef, but a fresh water lake popular with divers due to decent 30 foot visibility. I expect the bottom is most likely mud, but I can confirm that with locals. What are everyone's opinions on having the convention at this location? Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2017 7:51 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts It looks like the rule was enacted 7/1/2011 which places it about two months prior to the ten-year anniversary of the twin tower attacks. If you recall, there was a lot of hub-bub circulating that some kind of attack was being planned on the tenth anniversary so this was probably a proactive restriction for that event. I believe BIONIC DOLPHIN either operates or did a lot of testing in that lake and their activity may have contributed to such a rule. Jon On 2/25/2017 3:54 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Just scanned through the Whiskeytown Lake website and found the list of park rules and regs. ? 3.19 May I operate a submersible within park waters? The use of manned or unmanned submersibles may only occur in accordance with a permit issued by the superintendent under ? 1.6 of this chapter. ...So which one of you guys are responsible for that one? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 4 21:51:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Bob Travis via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 18:51:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts In-Reply-To: <003801d2adac$7755fd70$6601f850$@telus.net> References: <003801d2adac$7755fd70$6601f850$@telus.net> Message-ID: <29924658-8CD7-4771-A791-4A7B205D811F@comcast.net> I would be interested.... Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 4, 2017, at 6:32 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Sounds good, Brian. > Hank mentioned he may attend. Any others interested in Wiskeytown Lake near Redding CA? > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Saturday, April 1, 2017 10:22 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts > > Tim, > I would like very much like to do some sort of convention this summer at Whiskey Lake as I have relatives in Redding and I will most certainly be ready to dive by then. I expect to have my sub operational in a month or two. Even if it's only a west coast deal I'd be up for it. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts > Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 23:04:12 -0700 > > Brian, > > > > Approximate date for the convention would be sometime in July or August. It would be determined by those who are planning to attend. I think most of our fleet is near the east coast, but I am just putting this venue out there as potential choice. I think Jim or Jon make the actual decisions. > > > > Tim > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2017 6:20 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts > > > > Tim, > > What is the approximate date for a convention ? > > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts > Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 10:30:56 -0700 > > This permit was put in place because this lake is a National Park (no submersibles allowed without permit) and a dammed lake for hydro power and there is a risk of submarine vehicles getting mixed up in the power generation equipment. The requirement for a permit is not a "No" but usually requires informing the authorities of the planned activities and getting them approved for the area of operation. > > I just now got off the phone with Acting Chief Ranger Charlie Hardy. He said that the Sea Breacher subs are built in Redding and that they have a commercial use permit to operate those subs in Wiskeytown Lake. For our convention dive we will need a special use permit, which should be no problem getting approved. Ranger Hardy will email an application for the special use permit. He was most helpful and encouraging with respect to us operating manned submersibles in Wiskeytown Lake. > > It's not a gorgeous Florida reef, but a fresh water lake popular with divers due to decent 30 foot visibility. I expect the bottom is most likely mud, but I can confirm that with locals. > > What are everyone's opinions on having the convention at this location? > > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2017 7:51 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts > > > It looks like the rule was enacted 7/1/2011 which places it about two months prior to the ten-year anniversary of the twin tower attacks. If you recall, there was a lot of hub-bub circulating that some kind of attack was being planned on the tenth anniversary so this was probably a proactive restriction for that event. I believe BIONIC DOLPHIN either operates or did a lot of testing in that lake and their activity may have contributed to such a rule. > > Jon > > > On 2/25/2017 3:54 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Just scanned through the Whiskeytown Lake website and found the list of park rules and regs. > > ? 3.19 > May I operate a submersible within park waters? > The use of manned or unmanned submersibles may only occur in accordance with a permit issued by the superintendent under ? 1.6 of this chapter. > > ...So which one of you guys are responsible for that one? > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 4 21:58:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 18:58:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts Message-ID: I would attend. No submarine, but I'd enjoy meeting, jawing, and seeing others subs. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/4/17 6:32 PM (GMT-08:00) To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts Sounds good, Brian.Hank mentioned he may attend.? Any others interested in Wiskeytown Lake near Redding CA?Tim?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, April 1, 2017 10:22 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts?Tim,?????????????? I would like very much like?to do some sort of convention this summer at Whiskey Lake as I have relatives in Redding and I will most certainly be ready to dive by then.? I expect to have my sub operational in a month or two.? Even if it's only a west coast deal I'd be up for it.?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 23:04:12 -0700Brian,?Approximate date for the convention would be sometime in July or August.? It would be determined by those who are planning to attend.? I think most of our fleet is near the east coast, but I am just putting this venue out there as potential choice.? I think Jim or Jon make the actual decisions.?Tim?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2017 6:20 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts?Tim, ???????????? What is the approximate date for a convention ??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 10:30:56 -0700This permit was put in place because this lake is a National Park (no submersibles allowed without permit) and a dammed lake for hydro power and there is a risk of submarine vehicles getting mixed up in the power generation equipment.? The requirement for a permit is not a "No" but usually requires informing the authorities of the planned activities and getting them approved for the area of operation.? ?I just now got off the phone with Acting Chief Ranger Charlie Hardy.? He said that the Sea Breacher subs are built in Redding and that they have a commercial use permit to operate those subs in Wiskeytown Lake.? For our convention dive we will need a special use permit, which should be no problem getting approved.? Ranger Hardy will email an application for the special use permit.? He was most helpful and encouraging with respect to us operating manned submersibles in Wiskeytown Lake.?It's not a gorgeous Florida reef, but a fresh water lake popular with divers due to decent 30 foot visibility.? I expect the bottom is most likely mud, but I can confirm that with locals.?What are everyone's opinions on having the convention at this location??Tim?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2017 7:51 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts? It looks like the rule was enacted 7/1/2011 which places it about two months prior to the ten-year anniversary of the twin tower attacks.? If you recall, there was a lot of hub-bub circulating that some kind of attack was being planned on the tenth anniversary so this was probably a proactive restriction for that event.? I believe BIONIC DOLPHIN either operates or did a lot of testing in that lake and their activity may have contributed to such a rule. Jon On 2/25/2017 3:54 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote:Just scanned through the Whiskeytown Lake website and found the list of park rules and regs.? 3.19 ??? May I operate a submersible within park waters? ??? The use of manned or unmanned submersibles may only occur in accordance with a permit issued by the superintendent under ? 1.6 of this chapter....So which one of you guys are responsible for that one??_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 07:37:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 07:37:41 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What are the issues surrounding a closed, sealed, oil-compensated system in a typical minn-kota motor application? Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 08:43:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 12:43:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <182359846.10936255.1491396191214@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jon, My Minn Kotas? leaked oil through the shaft seal and gaskets in the housing. This is probably because both oils that I used (Baby oil first then tried WD40) were too thin.Thin oil?also travels through stranded wire so the?terminations need to be sealed?in a way that stops oil too.Thicker silicon based?oil with the right potting on the wire would probably solve those issues.? Greg C From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator What are the issues surrounding a closed, sealed, oil-compensated system in a typical minn-kota motor application? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 08:50:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 12:50:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4876800.375622.1491396603721@mail.yahoo.com> Of course on "real" subs that compensate with oil there is no potting because the whole system runs through oil compatible tubing and the ends are sealed to proper electrical penetrators. From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator What are the issues surrounding a closed, sealed, oil-compensated system in a typical minn-kota motor application? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 13:23:37 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 07:23:37 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jon What type of system did you use for the oil to go to when it gets hot? Rick On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 1:37 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > What are the issues surrounding a closed, sealed, oil-compensated system > in a typical minn-kota motor application? > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 13:49:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 13:49:51 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3a1af715-1e81-1e8b-300d-fd116ad37afa@psubs.org> I haven't designed mine yet Rick which is why I'm asking the question. I guess the first question is whether one of the seals can be reversed to prevent oil from escaping around the motor shaft. I think I recall Hank mentioning something about this but I don't know if it was on a minn-kota. I'm also not sure if oil egress is due to heat/pressure build up or because the motor is designed to keep water out, not oil in. We've got different people saying different things so I'm hoping we can come up with a "best practice" solution and document it in a white paper. Jon On 4/5/2017 1:23 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon > > What type of system did you use for the oil to go to when it gets hot? > > Rick From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 14:29:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 08:29:02 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <3a1af715-1e81-1e8b-300d-fd116ad37afa@psubs.org> References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> <3a1af715-1e81-1e8b-300d-fd116ad37afa@psubs.org> Message-ID: Jon, Did you run it dry or submerged? How long did it take before it started extruding oil and was it a lot or just a little? I don't think Hanks was a minn-kota but he will speak to that. You could call Minn-Kota tech support to see about reversing an 0 ring but the drawing looks like they are multi directional. I have decided to drill top and bottom holes in the housing like others have done and then I am going to use a 90 degree barb on the lower hole with a short clear hose that goes to a small IV drip bag that I will fill with the oil I am using to about 20% with no air left in bag. After I have purged as much air as I can out of the motor housing, I will then insert a plastic plug that will screw into the top filling hole. I will be using Marvel mystery oil per what I have read on this site. Rick On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 7:49 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I haven't designed mine yet Rick which is why I'm asking the question. I > guess the first question is whether one of the seals can be reversed to > prevent oil from escaping around the motor shaft. I think I recall Hank > mentioning something about this but I don't know if it was on a minn-kota. > I'm also not sure if oil egress is due to heat/pressure build up or because > the motor is designed to keep water out, not oil in. > > We've got different people saying different things so I'm hoping we can > come up with a "best practice" solution and document it in a white paper. > > Jon > > > On 4/5/2017 1:23 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Jon >> >> What type of system did you use for the oil to go to when it gets hot? >> >> Rick >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 14:56:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 12:56:41 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: vjGjcTl9tnsYHvjGkcd7Sg References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> vjGjcTl9tnsYHvjGkcd7Sg Message-ID: <725ee98b-63ae-4f3a-9da9-d8afd61d1cdf@email.android.com> What is the stock seal arrangement on the Minn-Kotas? Sean On April 5, 2017 5:37:41 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >What are the issues surrounding a closed, sealed, oil-compensated >system >in a typical minn-kota motor application? > >Jon > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 15:08:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 13:08:30 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: vp55cSkPRLrIFvp56c7fGM References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> vp55cSkPRLrIFvp56c7fGM Message-ID: The best practice may not be easily achievable with a Minn-Kota without extensive modification. That said, I would orient an inner seal with lip inwards, and an outer seal with lip outwards. Pressure compensate the motor cavity with oil at a bias pressure above ambient, and separately pressure compensate the inter-seal cavity with oil at exactly ambient pressure. This way, you are either changing pressure or changing fluid across any single seal, but not both simultaneously. Minor leakage across either seal in this implementation is inconsequential. Both compensation mechanisms should have some reserve volume to account for thermal expansion of the oil. Sean On April 5, 2017 11:49:51 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >I haven't designed mine yet Rick which is why I'm asking the question. > >I guess the first question is whether one of the seals can be reversed >to prevent oil from escaping around the motor shaft. I think I recall >Hank mentioning something about this but I don't know if it was on a >minn-kota. I'm also not sure if oil egress is due to heat/pressure >build up or because the motor is designed to keep water out, not oil >in. > >We've got different people saying different things so I'm hoping we can > >come up with a "best practice" solution and document it in a white >paper. > >Jon > > >On 4/5/2017 1:23 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Jon >> >> What type of system did you use for the oil to go to when it gets >hot? >> >> Rick > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 16:02:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 20:02:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the handson experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately.The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two sealsmeaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded.The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defenseagainst water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop.Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it.Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them,or a cascaded pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial.?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressurewill push them up against.Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks& is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feedsout through the handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this valve opens.This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oilcompensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure.I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens.?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use.Personal Submersible: White Paper: Minn Kota Motor NotesCheers Alan | | | Personal Submersible: White Paper: Minn Kota Motor Notes | | | ? From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator The best practice may not be easily achievable with a Minn-Kota without extensive modification. That said, I would orient an inner seal with lip inwards, and an outer seal with lip outwards. Pressure compensate the motor cavity with oil at a bias pressure above ambient, and separately pressure compensate the inter-seal cavity with oil at exactly ambient pressure. This way, you are either changing pressure or changing fluid across any single seal, but not both simultaneously. Minor leakage across either seal in this implementation is inconsequential. Both compensation mechanisms should have some reserve volume to account for thermal expansion of the oil.Sean On April 5, 2017 11:49:51 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I haven't designed mine yet Rick which is why I'm asking the question. I guess the first question is whether one of the seals can be reversed to prevent oil from escaping around the motor shaft. I think I recall Hank mentioning something about this but I don't know if it was on a minn-kota. I'm also not sure if oil egress is due to heat/pressure build up or because the motor is designed to keep water out, not oil in. We've got different people saying different things so I'm hoping we can come up with a "best practice" solution and document it in a white paper. Jon On 4/5/2017 1:23 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon What type of system did you use for the oil to go to when it gets hot? Rick Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 16:21:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 16:21:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4a2a9cdc-72e5-a7b3-310a-233e0cfd77b8@psubs.org> Hi Sean, I haven't had mine apart yet but I have to assume both seals (cup type) are oriented toward water. Is there really a need for two seals for our purposes? I wonder if just removing the outer one would take care of the inter-seal cavity. Exploded parts diagram at https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0191/7628/files/2013-N-Minn-Kota-riptide-motors-rttransom-Riptide-101t.pdf?6255360441529777455 On 4/5/2017 3:08 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > The best practice may not be easily achievable with a Minn-Kota > without extensive modification. That said, I would orient an inner > seal with lip inwards, and an outer seal with lip outwards. Pressure > compensate the motor cavity with oil at a bias pressure above ambient, > and separately pressure compensate the inter-seal cavity with oil at > exactly ambient pressure. This way, you are either changing pressure > or changing fluid across any single seal, but not both simultaneously. > Minor leakage across either seal in this implementation is > inconsequential. Both compensation mechanisms should have some reserve > volume to account for thermal expansion of the oil. > > Sean > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 16:29:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 16:29:39 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> Hi Alan, Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc. I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented. Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread. Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. Jon On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has > the hands > on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him > privately. > The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals > meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is > exceeded. > The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line > of defense > against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the > abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. > Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. > Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with > either ambient pressure between them, > or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The > outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. > Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the > air gap. > I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not > as they need a shoulder that the pressure > will push them up against. > Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his > motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks > & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated > upside down as the relieving air feeds > out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water > entering when this valve opens. > This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the > advantage that you could either air or oil > compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced > with air above ambient pressure. > I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. > There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying > Minn kotas for underwater use. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 16:43:13 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 20:43:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> Message-ID: <819596121.1777519.1491424993657@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,I agree with Sean, orient the seal inward to keep oil in and the outer seal outward to keep water out. ?having said that I also agree with you that a single seal oriented to keep oil in will work. ?I will do both when I take Gamma out for a?trial ?run before the pressure test. ?I will set up the ?two travel thrusters for the experiment. ?I have them set up the way Sean suggests at the moment. ?A submersible pump has one seal oriented to keep oil in with a rubber spring loaded ?bladder for compensation. ?Just for interest sake, I have two MinKota thrusters for vertical thrust with the motors mounted with the props at the top. ?I have NO compensation system and no leaks that are noticeable, and when I change the oil (WD40) annually, I don't see water. ?I am sure there is some and I am sure they leak some oil, but never have I seen evidence on the surface.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 2:30 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go.? It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc.? I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented.? Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious?? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread.? Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. Jon On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, or a cascaded pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. ?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure will push them up against. Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds out through the handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this valve opens. This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. ?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 17:50:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 16:50:24 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> Message-ID: *I covered this in my Psub presentation at the 2016 PSub convention. But will hit the highlights.* *The Minn Kota 101 lower unit (MK part number 2886289) had a shaft seal on the end of the shaft that is connected to the prop. The seal arrangement consists of two identical lip seals oriented to see external pressure. The inner lip seal lands on a shoulder in the Brush End Assembly. This cast aluminum part does three things. The first is hold the DC brush assembly, the second to hold a brass or bronze journal bearing, the third is to provide a cavity to land two lip seals. The stock MK-101 lower unit the two lip seals separated by a cardboard spacer. This seal arrangement is design for a low differential pressure on the order of maximum 30 fsw or about 13 psig. Antidotal experience is that this seal assembly has withstood three times this depth. * *For the last two years I have been operating with this stock seal arrangement on the four thrusters on the R300. I use a WATTS R364-02BSS/M1 REGULATOR part number 364-02BSS/M1 to do pneumatic pressure compensation of my four thrusters. I supply pressure to the regulator from the LP pressure side of a scuba first stage regulator and have it adjusted to supply pressure at 4 psi above ambient water pressure. The scuba first stage regulator is supplying pressure to this reducing regulator at 50 psi above ambient water pressure. This is a relieving style pressure reducing regulator meaning that when you ascend, pressure vents from the regulator body. The deepest I have had this arrangement is 160 ft. To date I have had no thruster flooding but I don?t have a lot of hours on the units.* *As both Sean and Alan have pointed out this two lips-seal arrangement is correctly orient for low pressure applications like the original intent of the MK 101 units but not ideal for a pressure compensated deep diving thruster. As Alan pointed out, the 1 atm air initially between the two lip seals is an issue as well as the cardboard spacer. The outer lip seal will see more pressure that it was designed for which could lead to it failure with the lip rim on the ?? shaft being pushed in which could flood the 1 atm space and damage the cardboard spacer. At this point the inter lip seal is the only seal holding and it is seeing a 4 psi differential pressure with the pressure inside actually being higher than ambient. I have not torn down my 101s to see if the space between the lips seals was flooded. * *I hope to do some testing of different seal arrangements for the MK 101 lower unit in my test chamber at some point. I just have not had time and since my thrusters have been behaving, not strongly motivated. * *The idea of using this pressure reducing / relieving regulator came from Hugh Fulton as he has installed the system on the Q-Sub.* *Cliff * On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Alan, > > Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're > good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the > list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc. I understand > the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is > not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of > using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented. > Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion > issues of the oil really that serious? I know Alec wrote something about > his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding > that thread. Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation > regardless. > > Jon > > > On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, > Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the > hands > on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him > privately. > The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals > meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is > exceeded. > The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of > defense > against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the > abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. > Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. > Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with > either ambient pressure between them, > or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The outer > seal was regarded as sacrificial. > Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air > gap. > I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as > they need a shoulder that the pressure > will push them up against. > Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. > The regulator is fed air from your tanks > & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated > upside down as the relieving air feeds > out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water entering > when this valve opens. > This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the > advantage that you could either air or oil > compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with > air above ambient pressure. > I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. > There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn > kotas for underwater use. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 18:45:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:45:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1284478791.1815398.1491432331514@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,I am confused as to why you would want a 4 psi internal pressure pushing against a spring that is trying to keep the seal tight to the shaft. ?I would think the seal should be reversed with a 4 psi internal pressure to assist the spring ?in keeping it tight to the shaft. ?This will also apply to an oil filled motor, in the case of oil filling, the 4 psi would be beneficial in keeping the seal tight.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 3:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I covered this in my Psub presentation at the 2016 PSubconvention.? But will hit the highlights.The Minn Kota 101 lower unit (MK part number 2886289) hada shaft seal on the end of the shaft that is connected to the prop.? The seal arrangement consists of twoidentical lip seals oriented to see external pressure.? The inner lip seal lands on a shoulder in theBrush End Assembly.? This cast aluminum partdoes three things. The first is hold the DC brush assembly, the second to holda brass or bronze journal bearing, the third is to provide a cavity to land twolip seals.? The stock MK-101 lower unit thetwo lip seals separated by a cardboard spacer.?This seal arrangement is design for a low differential pressure on theorder of maximum 30 fsw or about 13 psig.?Antidotal experience is that this seal assembly has withstood threetimes this depth.? For the last two years I have been operating with thisstock seal arrangement on the four thrusters on the R300.? I use a WATTS R364-02BSS/M1 REGULATOR partnumber 364-02BSS/M1 to do pneumatic pressure compensation of my four thrusters.I supply pressure to the regulator from the LP pressure side of a scuba firststage regulator and have it adjusted to supply pressure at 4 psi above ambientwater pressure. The scuba first stage regulator is supplying pressure to this reducingregulator at 50 psi above ambient water pressure.? This is a relieving style pressure reducing regulatormeaning that ?when you ascend, pressurevents from the regulator body. The deepest I have had this arrangement is 160ft.? To date I have had no thrusterflooding but I don?t have a lot of hours on the units.As both Sean and Alan have pointed out this two lips-sealarrangement is correctly orient for low pressure applications like the originalintent of the MK 101 units but not ideal for a pressure compensated deep divingthruster.? As Alan pointed out, the 1 atmair initially between the two lip seals is an issue as well as the cardboardspacer.? The outer lip seal will see morepressure that it was designed for which could lead to it failure with the liprim on the ?? shaft being pushed in which could flood the 1 atm space anddamage the cardboard spacer.? At thispoint the inter lip seal is the only seal holding and it is seeing a 4 psi differentialpressure with the pressure inside actually being higher than ambient.? I have not torn down my 101s to see if thespace between the lips seals was flooded.?I hope to do some testing of different seal arrangements forthe MK 101 lower unit in my test chamber at some point. I just have not hadtime and since my thrusters have been behaving, not strongly motivated.? ?The idea of using this pressure reducing / relieving regulatorcame from Hugh Fulton as he has installed the system on the Q-Sub.?Cliff On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go.? It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc.? I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented.? Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious?? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread.? Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. Jon On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, or a cascaded pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. ?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure will push them up against. Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds out through the handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this valve opens. This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. ?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 18:48:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> Message-ID: <189168215.187350.1491432531148@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made?a brushless 2000W thrusterwhich I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board melted& it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed to meltso people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the compensating oilwas being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the wiring tube.If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but didn't think itwas needed in?a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip seals with ambientpressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next version.?? It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the advertised ratingsof commercial thrusters.?? I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless thruster if they haven'tyet.?Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless.?? If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it would be a bigimprovement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a specificfinish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more tolerant ofthe shaft surface finish & you could avoid this.?? Re the heat;?one concern?is transferring heat off the windings, which oil compensatingwill do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have large gauge windings that can cope with the heat.Below?is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion.AlanAlan and the other gentlemens, our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. vbr Carsten ?? From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Hi Alan, Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go.? It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc.? I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented.? Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious?? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread.? Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. Jon On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, or a cascaded pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. ?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure will push them up against. Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds out through the handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this valve opens. This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. ?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 19:15:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 16:15:25 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2017 Convention thoughts Message-ID: <20170405161525.3408352A@m0087798.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 19:24:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 17:24:47 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: vtl3cKoUVMs6Wvtl4cZSXT References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> vtl3cKoUVMs6Wvtl4cZSXT Message-ID: On the heat issue, be aware that oil compensating your motor will result in increased amperage draw due to the hydraulic resistance of the oil, and consequently, more heat generated. This may be a non-issue in a submerged motor with good heat transfer through the casing, but it will reduce efficiency and increase the power requirements. Sean On April 5, 2017 4:48:50 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Jon,I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made?a brushless >2000W thrusterwhich I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the >hall sensor board melted& it stopped because the timing went out. >Apparently the glue was designed to meltso people could adjust the >timing. The thruster got hot because the compensating oilwas being >forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the wiring >tube.If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented >this, but didn't think itwas needed in?a few feet of water. I was >running this motor with 2 lip seals with ambientpressure in between, >but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next version.?? It had a >comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the advertised >ratingsof commercial thrusters.?? I think it is a matter of time before >Minn kota put out a brushless thruster if they haven'tyet.?Most of the >commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless.?? If there was >enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it would be a >bigimprovement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft >to a specificfinish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical >seal is more tolerant ofthe shaft surface finish & you could avoid >this.?? Re the heat;?one concern?is transferring heat off the windings, >which oil compensatingwill do 100 times better than air. However Minn >kota motors would have large gauge windings that can cope with the >heat.Below?is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion.AlanAlan >and the other gentlemens, > >our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller >shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. >Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first >dives. >And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty >hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. >A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal >pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself >and hose work. > >Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But >still free of any air. >An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. > >To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the >bladder below the motorcasing. >But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is >not nessesary. There seals are good for some >douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. >Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can >vent the system direct on the filling point. > >Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the >earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central >one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the >T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. > >vbr Carsten >?? > >From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Hi Alan, > >Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and >you're good to go.? It doesn't address some of the issues that have >come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, >etc.? I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that >minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to >understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper >suggests and most psubbers have implemented.? Given that water is such >a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really >that serious?? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with >this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread.? >Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. > > Jon > > > On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Jon, Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & >has the hands on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth >contacting him privately. The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with >the gap between the two seals meaning one or the other seals will fail >when their pressure rating is exceeded. The outer seal seems to serve a >double purpose, being the first line of defense against water ingress & >also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up >by the prop. Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to >protect it. Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual >seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, or a cascaded >pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was >regarded as sacrificial. ?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with >grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply >reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure >will push them up against. Cliff is using a small relieving air >regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your >tanks & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is >orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds out through the >handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this >valve opens. This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. >It has the advantage that you could either air or oil compensate. If >your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above >ambient pressure. I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve >opens. ?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in >modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 19:29:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 16:29:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Message-ID: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 19:49:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 18:49:00 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <1284478791.1815398.1491432331514@mail.yahoo.com> References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> <1284478791.1815398.1491432331514@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank I realize that the orientiation of the off the shelf lip seal set is backward when the internal pressure is greater than ambient. First off, I wanted to see how well the seal set worked without monkeying with them. The springs around the lip seal are tight enough that this 4 psi does not open them in this situation. The other reason I left them was that the boat could be sitting in the water over night without the pressure compensation on. I wanted to make sure the thruster would not flood in this case. When I get a chance I will talk with Parker guys on this application and see what hey recommend. Minn Kota guys will just say that we are trying to use this lower unit for something it was not designed for. This seal arrangement is a work in progress. I am reluctant to go to a higher order seal system like double mechanical cartridge seal as it defeats the KISS theme for these cheap DIY thrusters. Cliff On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 5:45 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > I am confused as to why you would want a 4 psi internal pressure pushing > against a spring that is trying to keep the seal tight to the shaft. I > would think the seal should be reversed with a 4 psi internal pressure to > assist the spring in keeping it tight to the shaft. This will also apply > to an oil filled motor, in the case of oil filling, the 4 psi would be > beneficial in keeping the seal tight. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 3:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > *I covered this in my Psub presentation at the 2016 PSub convention. But > will hit the highlights.* > *The Minn Kota 101 lower unit (MK part number 2886289) had a shaft seal on > the end of the shaft that is connected to the prop. The seal arrangement > consists of two identical lip seals oriented to see external pressure. The > inner lip seal lands on a shoulder in the Brush End Assembly. This cast > aluminum part does three things. The first is hold the DC brush assembly, > the second to hold a brass or bronze journal bearing, the third is to > provide a cavity to land two lip seals. The stock MK-101 lower unit the > two lip seals separated by a cardboard spacer. This seal arrangement is > design for a low differential pressure on the order of maximum 30 fsw or > about 13 psig. Antidotal experience is that this seal assembly has > withstood three times this depth. * > *For the last two years I have been operating with this stock seal > arrangement on the four thrusters on the R300. I use a WATTS R364-02BSS/M1 > REGULATOR part number 364-02BSS/M1 to do pneumatic pressure compensation of > my four thrusters. I supply pressure to the regulator from the LP pressure > side of a scuba first stage regulator and have it adjusted to supply > pressure at 4 psi above ambient water pressure. The scuba first stage > regulator is supplying pressure to this reducing regulator at 50 psi above > ambient water pressure. This is a relieving style pressure reducing > regulator meaning that when you ascend, pressure vents from the regulator > body. The deepest I have had this arrangement is 160 ft. To date I have > had no thruster flooding but I don?t have a lot of hours on the units.* > *As both Sean and Alan have pointed out this two lips-seal arrangement is > correctly orient for low pressure applications like the original intent of > the MK 101 units but not ideal for a pressure compensated deep diving > thruster. As Alan pointed out, the 1 atm air initially between the two lip > seals is an issue as well as the cardboard spacer. The outer lip seal will > see more pressure that it was designed for which could lead to it failure > with the lip rim on the ?? shaft being pushed in which could flood the 1 > atm space and damage the cardboard spacer. At this point the inter lip > seal is the only seal holding and it is seeing a 4 psi differential > pressure with the pressure inside actually being higher than ambient. I > have not torn down my 101s to see if the space between the lips seals was > flooded. * > *I hope to do some testing of different seal arrangements for the MK 101 > lower unit in my test chamber at some point. I just have not had time and > since my thrusters have been behaving, not strongly motivated. * > > *The idea of using this pressure reducing / relieving regulator came from > Hugh Fulton as he has installed the system on the Q-Sub.* > > *Cliff * > > On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're > good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the > list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc. I understand > the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is > not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of > using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented. > Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion > issues of the oil really that serious? I know Alec wrote something about > his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding > that thread. Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation > regardless. > > Jon > > > On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, > Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the > hands > on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him > privately. > The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals > meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is > exceeded. > The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of > defense > against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the > abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. > Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. > Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with > either ambient pressure between them, > or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The outer > seal was regarded as sacrificial. > Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air > gap. > I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as > they need a shoulder that the pressure > will push them up against. > Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. > The regulator is fed air from your tanks > & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated > upside down as the relieving air feeds > out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water entering > when this valve opens. > This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the > advantage that you could either air or oil > compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with > air above ambient pressure. > I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. > There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn > kotas for underwater use. > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 19:47:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 23:47:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> Message-ID: <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,I think one of us should?develop a magnetic coupler in kit form. ?Maybe if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a reality. ?I have come close to starting and even bought the magnets. ?My stumbling block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I've decided to go with the?? PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my motors.?http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pure-silicone-low-viscosity.html??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) Jon,I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made?a brushless 2000W thrusterwhich I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board melted& it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed to meltso people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the compensating oilwas being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the wiring tube.If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but didn't think itwas needed in?a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip seals with ambientpressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next version.?? It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the advertised ratingsof commercial thrusters.?? I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless thruster if they haven'tyet.?Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless.?? If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it would be a bigimprovement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a specificfinish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more tolerant ofthe shaft surface finish & you could avoid this.?? Re the heat;?one concern?is transferring heat off the windings, which oil compensatingwill do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have large gauge windings that can cope with the heat.Below?is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion.AlanAlan and the other gentlemens, our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. vbr Carsten ?? From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Hi Alan, Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go.? It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc.? I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented.? Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious?? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread.? Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. Jon On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, or a cascaded pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. ?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure will push them up against. Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds out through the handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this valve opens. This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. ?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 20:00:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:00:04 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, By "finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water" do you mean the bearings which will sit outside the pressure housing? I started looking into ceramic bearings for just this application, and they were interesting - ie. some of them have no metal parts and little need for lubrication. Cheers, Steve On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Sean, > I think one of us should develop a magnetic coupler in kit form. Maybe > if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a reality. I > have come close to starting and even bought the magnets. My stumbling > block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by > the water. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I've decided to go with the PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my > motors. > > http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pure-silicone-low-viscosity.html > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) > > Jon, > I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made a brushless 2000W > thruster > which I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board > melted > & it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed > to melt > so people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the > compensating oil > was being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the > wiring tube. > If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but > didn't think it > was needed in a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip > seals with ambient > pressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next > version. > It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the > advertised ratings > of commercial thrusters. > I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless > thruster if they haven't > yet. Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless. > If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it > would be a big > improvement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a > specific > finish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more > tolerant of > the shaft surface finish & you could avoid this. > Re the heat; one concern is transferring heat off the windings, which > oil compensating > will do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have > large gauge windings > that can cope with the heat. > Below is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion. > Alan > > Alan and the other gentlemens, > > our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. > Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. > And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. > A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal > pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. > > Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. > An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. > > To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. > But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some > douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. > Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. > > Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central > one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Hi Alan, > > Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're > good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the > list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc. I understand > the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is > not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of > using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented. > Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion > issues of the oil really that serious? I know Alec wrote something about > his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding > that thread. Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation > regardless. > > Jon > > > On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, > Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the > hands > on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him > privately. > The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals > meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is > exceeded. > The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of > defense > against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the > abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. > Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. > Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with > either ambient pressure between them, > or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The outer > seal was regarded as sacrificial. > Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air > gap. > I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as > they need a shoulder that the pressure > will push them up against. > Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. > The regulator is fed air from your tanks > & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated > upside down as the relieving air feeds > out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water entering > when this valve opens. > This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the > advantage that you could either air or oil > compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with > air above ambient pressure. > I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. > There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn > kotas for underwater use. > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 20:07:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 12:07:46 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, that looks a pretty good product. I would use that. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 6/04/2017, at 11:29 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I've decided to go with the PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my motors. > > http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pure-silicone-low-viscosity.html > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) > > Jon, > I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made a brushless 2000W thruster > which I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board melted > & it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed to melt > so people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the compensating oil > was being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the wiring tube. > If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but didn't think it > was needed in a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip seals with ambient > pressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next version. > It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the advertised ratings > of commercial thrusters. > I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless thruster if they haven't > yet. Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless. > If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it would be a big > improvement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a specific > finish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more tolerant of > the shaft surface finish & you could avoid this. > Re the heat; one concern is transferring heat off the windings, which oil compensating > will do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have large gauge windings > that can cope with the heat. > Below is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion. > Alan > Alan and the other gentlemens, > > our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. > Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. > And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. > A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal > pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. > > Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. > An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. > > To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. > But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some > douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. > Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. > > Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central > one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Hi Alan, > > Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc. I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented. Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread. Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. > > Jon > > > On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands > on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. > The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals > meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. > The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense > against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. > Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. > > Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, > or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. > Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. > I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure > will push them up against. > Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks > & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds > out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water entering when this valve opens. > This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil > compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. > I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. > There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 20:05:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 00:05:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <1284478791.1815398.1491432331514@mail.yahoo.com> References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> <1284478791.1815398.1491432331514@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2094640252.236862.1491437122661@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff/Hank, I have to say I agree with Hank on this point. The Minn -Kota was designed to operate with a small amount of external pressure. Pressure compensation with air?only needs to be sufficient?so that the design limits are not exceeded. Positive pressure (such as during ascent) should be escaping through the scuba regulator.On the other hand, Cliff is a sharp guy?so now I'm curious.As far as the space between the inner and outer shaft seals- I don't know if sea level pressure in that space would cause a?problem or not. It's worth checking. Also, as long as we are on the subject here are some other things-Brush contact pressure is sometime increased in oil filled DC motors.Arcing in some oils can produce carbon like deposits.Rotating assemblies in oil DO consume some energy,Friction from rotating assemblies in oil can also create additional heat (although I think it is inconsequential).Some sort of Bellows type device is usually added for compression/ expansion in "real" systems. All and all, I'm liking air comp more and more for home built subs that don't have complete oil?filled tubing?electrical systems. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Cliff,I am confused as to why you would want a 4 psi internal pressure pushing against a spring that is trying to keep the seal tight to the shaft. ?I would think the seal should be reversed with a 4 psi internal pressure to assist the spring ?in keeping it tight to the shaft. ?This will also apply to an oil filled motor, in the case of oil filling, the 4 psi would be beneficial in keeping the seal tight.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 3:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I covered this in my Psub presentation at the 2016 PSubconvention.? But will hit the highlights.The Minn Kota 101 lower unit (MK part number 2886289) hada shaft seal on the end of the shaft that is connected to the prop.? The seal arrangement consists of twoidentical lip seals oriented to see external pressure.? The inner lip seal lands on a shoulder in theBrush End Assembly.? This cast aluminum partdoes three things. The first is hold the DC brush assembly, the second to holda brass or bronze journal bearing, the third is to provide a cavity to land twolip seals.? The stock MK-101 lower unit thetwo lip seals separated by a cardboard spacer.?This seal arrangement is design for a low differential pressure on theorder of maximum 30 fsw or about 13 psig.?Antidotal experience is that this seal assembly has withstood threetimes this depth.? For the last two years I have been operating with thisstock seal arrangement on the four thrusters on the R300.? I use a WATTS R364-02BSS/M1 REGULATOR partnumber 364-02BSS/M1 to do pneumatic pressure compensation of my four thrusters.I supply pressure to the regulator from the LP pressure side of a scuba firststage regulator and have it adjusted to supply pressure at 4 psi above ambientwater pressure. The scuba first stage regulator is supplying pressure to this reducingregulator at 50 psi above ambient water pressure.? This is a relieving style pressure reducing regulatormeaning that ?when you ascend, pressurevents from the regulator body. The deepest I have had this arrangement is 160ft.? To date I have had no thrusterflooding but I don?t have a lot of hours on the units.As both Sean and Alan have pointed out this two lips-sealarrangement is correctly orient for low pressure applications like the originalintent of the MK 101 units but not ideal for a pressure compensated deep divingthruster.? As Alan pointed out, the 1 atmair initially between the two lip seals is an issue as well as the cardboardspacer.? The outer lip seal will see morepressure that it was designed for which could lead to it failure with the liprim on the ?? shaft being pushed in which could flood the 1 atm space anddamage the cardboard spacer.? At thispoint the inter lip seal is the only seal holding and it is seeing a 4 psi differentialpressure with the pressure inside actually being higher than ambient.? I have not torn down my 101s to see if thespace between the lips seals was flooded.?I hope to do some testing of different seal arrangements forthe MK 101 lower unit in my test chamber at some point. I just have not hadtime and since my thrusters have been behaving, not strongly motivated.? ?The idea of using this pressure reducing / relieving regulatorcame from Hugh Fulton as he has installed the system on the Q-Sub.?Cliff On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go.? It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc.? I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented.? Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious?? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread.? Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. Jon On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, or a cascaded pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. ?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure will push them up against. Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds out through the handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this valve opens. This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. ?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 20:09:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 00:09:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> Steve,Yes I need a bushing (bearing) that holds the prop shaft in the water. ?It would be like a cutlass prop shat bearing on a boat. ?It would have to be long enough to hold the prop strait and true. ?Also it would need to act as a thrust bearing.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:00 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,By "finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water" do you mean the bearings which will sit?outside the pressure housing? I started looking into ceramic bearings for just?this application, and they were interesting - ie. some of them have?no metal parts and little need for lubrication. Cheers,Steve On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,I think one of us should?develop a magnetic coupler in kit form.? Maybe if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a reality.? I have come close to starting and even bought the magnets.? My stumbling block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I've decided to go with the?? PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my motors.?http://www.clearcoproducts. com/pure-silicone-low- viscosity.html??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) Jon,I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made?a brushless 2000W thrusterwhich I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board melted& it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed to meltso people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the compensating oilwas being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the wiring tube.If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but didn't think itwas needed in?a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip seals with ambientpressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next version.?? It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the advertised ratingsof commercial thrusters.?? I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless thruster if they haven'tyet.?Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless.?? If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it would be a bigimprovement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a specificfinish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more tolerant ofthe shaft surface finish & you could avoid this.?? Re the heat;?one concern?is transferring heat off the windings, which oil compensatingwill do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have large gauge windings that can cope with the heat.Below?is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion.AlanAlan and the other gentlemens, our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. vbr Carsten ?? From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Hi Alan, Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go.? It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc.? I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented.? Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious?? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread.? Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. Jon On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, or a cascaded pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. ?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure will push them up against. Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds out through the handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this valve opens. This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. ?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 20:21:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 12:21:21 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0285AFD6-6C66-4D43-84FC-7F1C257679A7@yahoo.com> I am not convinced of the advantages of a magnetic coupler. As you say, there needs to be a large external bearing to transfer the thrust from the propellor to the motor housing, & this will be exposed to water & an abrasive environment. Then you have a gap between the covered portion of the internal magnets & the rotating external coupler. Would this wear or have potential to build up muck between the surfaces? Also the weight of the magnetic coupler would make for a higher amp draw on starting & a direct drive system might not be efficient trying to turn with the additional weight. The conventional way has a smaller bearing & the oil has motor cooling & lubricating benefits. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 6/04/2017, at 12:00 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Hank, > By "finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water" do you mean the bearings which will sit outside the pressure housing? > > I started looking into ceramic bearings for just this application, and they were interesting - ie. some of them have no metal parts and little need for lubrication. > > Cheers, > Steve > >> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Sean, >> I think one of us should develop a magnetic coupler in kit form. Maybe if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a reality. I have come close to starting and even bought the magnets. My stumbling block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water. >> Hank >> >> >> On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> I've decided to go with the PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my motors. >> >> http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pure-silicone-low-viscosity.html >> >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator >> Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) >> >> Jon, >> I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made a brushless 2000W thruster >> which I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board melted >> & it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed to melt >> so people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the compensating oil >> was being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the wiring tube. >> If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but didn't think it >> was needed in a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip seals with ambient >> pressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next version. >> It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the advertised ratings >> of commercial thrusters. >> I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless thruster if they haven't >> yet. Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless. >> If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it would be a big >> improvement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a specific >> finish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more tolerant of >> the shaft surface finish & you could avoid this. >> Re the heat; one concern is transferring heat off the windings, which oil compensating >> will do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have large gauge windings >> that can cope with the heat. >> Below is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion. >> Alan >> Alan and the other gentlemens, >> >> our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. >> Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. >> And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. >> A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal >> pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. >> >> Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. >> An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. >> >> To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. >> But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some >> douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. >> Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. >> >> Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central >> one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc. I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented. Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread. Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Jon, >> Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands >> on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. >> The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals >> meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. >> The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense >> against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. >> Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. >> >> Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, >> or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. >> Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. >> I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure >> will push them up against. >> Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks >> & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds >> out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water entering when this valve opens. >> This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil >> compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. >> I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. >> There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 20:23:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 00:23:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <2094640252.236862.1491437122661@mail.yahoo.com> References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> <1284478791.1815398.1491432331514@mail.yahoo.com> <2094640252.236862.1491437122661@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <303607351.1884946.1491438191444@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,The big difference with oil filling is cost savings. ?The power loss is no issue because we have WAY more battery power than we need as a rule. ?I have never even come close to running out of battery power, and I travel miles. ?When I change oil?annually, the oil is?defiantly darker from carbon I assume, but the motors still look great inside with no?noticeable brush loss. ?I do agree though that air would be nicer and cleaner, especially now that it is well perfected.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:08 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff/Hank, I have to say I agree with Hank on this point. The Minn -Kota was designed to operate with a small amount of external pressure. Pressure compensation with air?only needs to be sufficient?so that the design limits are not exceeded. Positive pressure (such as during ascent) should be escaping through the scuba regulator.On the other hand, Cliff is a sharp guy?so now I'm curious.As far as the space between the inner and outer shaft seals- I don't know if sea level pressure in that space would cause a?problem or not. It's worth checking. Also, as long as we are on the subject here are some other things-Brush contact pressure is sometime increased in oil filled DC motors.Arcing in some oils can produce carbon like deposits.Rotating assemblies in oil DO consume some energy,Friction from rotating assemblies in oil can also create additional heat (although I think it is inconsequential).Some sort of Bellows type device is usually added for compression/ expansion in "real" systems. All and all, I'm liking air comp more and more for home built subs that don't have complete oil?filled tubing?electrical systems. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Cliff,I am confused as to why you would want a 4 psi internal pressure pushing against a spring that is trying to keep the seal tight to the shaft. ?I would think the seal should be reversed with a 4 psi internal pressure to assist the spring ?in keeping it tight to the shaft. ?This will also apply to an oil filled motor, in the case of oil filling, the 4 psi would be beneficial in keeping the seal tight.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 3:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I covered this in my Psub presentation at the 2016 PSubconvention.? But will hit the highlights.The Minn Kota 101 lower unit (MK part number 2886289) hada shaft seal on the end of the shaft that is connected to the prop.? The seal arrangement consists of twoidentical lip seals oriented to see external pressure.? The inner lip seal lands on a shoulder in theBrush End Assembly.? This cast aluminum partdoes three things. The first is hold the DC brush assembly, the second to holda brass or bronze journal bearing, the third is to provide a cavity to land twolip seals.? The stock MK-101 lower unit thetwo lip seals separated by a cardboard spacer.?This seal arrangement is design for a low differential pressure on theorder of maximum 30 fsw or about 13 psig.?Antidotal experience is that this seal assembly has withstood threetimes this depth.? For the last two years I have been operating with thisstock seal arrangement on the four thrusters on the R300.? I use a WATTS R364-02BSS/M1 REGULATOR partnumber 364-02BSS/M1 to do pneumatic pressure compensation of my four thrusters.I supply pressure to the regulator from the LP pressure side of a scuba firststage regulator and have it adjusted to supply pressure at 4 psi above ambientwater pressure. The scuba first stage regulator is supplying pressure to this reducingregulator at 50 psi above ambient water pressure.? This is a relieving style pressure reducing regulatormeaning that ?when you ascend, pressurevents from the regulator body. The deepest I have had this arrangement is 160ft.? To date I have had no thrusterflooding but I don?t have a lot of hours on the units.As both Sean and Alan have pointed out this two lips-sealarrangement is correctly orient for low pressure applications like the originalintent of the MK 101 units but not ideal for a pressure compensated deep divingthruster.? As Alan pointed out, the 1 atmair initially between the two lip seals is an issue as well as the cardboardspacer.? The outer lip seal will see morepressure that it was designed for which could lead to it failure with the liprim on the ?? shaft being pushed in which could flood the 1 atm space anddamage the cardboard spacer.? At thispoint the inter lip seal is the only seal holding and it is seeing a 4 psi differentialpressure with the pressure inside actually being higher than ambient.? I have not torn down my 101s to see if thespace between the lips seals was flooded.?I hope to do some testing of different seal arrangements forthe MK 101 lower unit in my test chamber at some point. I just have not hadtime and since my thrusters have been behaving, not strongly motivated.? ?The idea of using this pressure reducing / relieving regulatorcame from Hugh Fulton as he has installed the system on the Q-Sub.?Cliff On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go.? It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc.? I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented.? Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious?? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread.? Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. Jon On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, or a cascaded pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. ?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure will push them up against. Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds out through the handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this valve opens. This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. ?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 20:24:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 00:24:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,What is the cost for a air compensated set up?Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Steve,Yes I need a bushing (bearing) that holds the prop shaft in the water. ?It would be like a cutlass prop shat bearing on a boat. ?It would have to be long enough to hold the prop strait and true. ?Also it would need to act as a thrust bearing.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:00 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,By "finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water" do you mean the bearings which will sit?outside the pressure housing? I started looking into ceramic bearings for just?this application, and they were interesting - ie. some of them have?no metal parts and little need for lubrication. Cheers,Steve On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,I think one of us should?develop a magnetic coupler in kit form.? Maybe if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a reality.? I have come close to starting and even bought the magnets.? My stumbling block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I've decided to go with the?? PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my motors.?http://www.clearcoproducts. com/pure-silicone-low- viscosity.html??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) Jon,I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made?a brushless 2000W thrusterwhich I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board melted& it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed to meltso people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the compensating oilwas being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the wiring tube.If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but didn't think itwas needed in?a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip seals with ambientpressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next version.?? It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the advertised ratingsof commercial thrusters.?? I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless thruster if they haven'tyet.?Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless.?? If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it would be a bigimprovement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a specificfinish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more tolerant ofthe shaft surface finish & you could avoid this.?? Re the heat;?one concern?is transferring heat off the windings, which oil compensatingwill do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have large gauge windings that can cope with the heat.Below?is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion.AlanAlan and the other gentlemens, our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. vbr Carsten ?? From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Hi Alan, Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go.? It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc.? I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented.? Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious?? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread.? Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. Jon On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, or a cascaded pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. ?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure will push them up against. Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds out through the handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this valve opens. This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. ?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 20:31:27 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 00:31:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <303607351.1884946.1491438191444@mail.yahoo.com> References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> <1284478791.1815398.1491432331514@mail.yahoo.com> <2094640252.236862.1491437122661@mail.yahoo.com> <303607351.1884946.1491438191444@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <716875083.1914233.1491438687045@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I think magnetic couplers are the way to go if you have the money. ?Nuytco is selling them like mad for 50,000 a pop. ?That says it all to me. ?The potential for muck causing a problem is non existent to me. ?It is the same with a mechanical seal. ?I don't think it has to be big either, when you look at the original DW magnetic coupled motors. ?They are no bigger than a Min-KotaHank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:26 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,The big difference with oil filling is cost savings. ?The power loss is no issue because we have WAY more battery power than we need as a rule. ?I have never even come close to running out of battery power, and I travel miles. ?When I change oil?annually, the oil is?defiantly darker from carbon I assume, but the motors still look great inside with no?noticeable brush loss. ?I do agree though that air would be nicer and cleaner, especially now that it is well perfected.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:08 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff/Hank, I have to say I agree with Hank on this point. The Minn -Kota was designed to operate with a small amount of external pressure. Pressure compensation with air?only needs to be sufficient?so that the design limits are not exceeded. Positive pressure (such as during ascent) should be escaping through the scuba regulator.On the other hand, Cliff is a sharp guy?so now I'm curious.As far as the space between the inner and outer shaft seals- I don't know if sea level pressure in that space would cause a?problem or not. It's worth checking. Also, as long as we are on the subject here are some other things-Brush contact pressure is sometime increased in oil filled DC motors.Arcing in some oils can produce carbon like deposits.Rotating assemblies in oil DO consume some energy,Friction from rotating assemblies in oil can also create additional heat (although I think it is inconsequential).Some sort of Bellows type device is usually added for compression/ expansion in "real" systems. All and all, I'm liking air comp more and more for home built subs that don't have complete oil?filled tubing?electrical systems. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Cliff,I am confused as to why you would want a 4 psi internal pressure pushing against a spring that is trying to keep the seal tight to the shaft. ?I would think the seal should be reversed with a 4 psi internal pressure to assist the spring ?in keeping it tight to the shaft. ?This will also apply to an oil filled motor, in the case of oil filling, the 4 psi would be beneficial in keeping the seal tight.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 3:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I covered this in my Psub presentation at the 2016 PSubconvention.? But will hit the highlights.The Minn Kota 101 lower unit (MK part number 2886289) hada shaft seal on the end of the shaft that is connected to the prop.? The seal arrangement consists of twoidentical lip seals oriented to see external pressure.? The inner lip seal lands on a shoulder in theBrush End Assembly.? This cast aluminum partdoes three things. The first is hold the DC brush assembly, the second to holda brass or bronze journal bearing, the third is to provide a cavity to land twolip seals.? The stock MK-101 lower unit thetwo lip seals separated by a cardboard spacer.?This seal arrangement is design for a low differential pressure on theorder of maximum 30 fsw or about 13 psig.?Antidotal experience is that this seal assembly has withstood threetimes this depth.? For the last two years I have been operating with thisstock seal arrangement on the four thrusters on the R300.? I use a WATTS R364-02BSS/M1 REGULATOR partnumber 364-02BSS/M1 to do pneumatic pressure compensation of my four thrusters.I supply pressure to the regulator from the LP pressure side of a scuba firststage regulator and have it adjusted to supply pressure at 4 psi above ambientwater pressure. The scuba first stage regulator is supplying pressure to this reducingregulator at 50 psi above ambient water pressure.? This is a relieving style pressure reducing regulatormeaning that ?when you ascend, pressurevents from the regulator body. The deepest I have had this arrangement is 160ft.? To date I have had no thrusterflooding but I don?t have a lot of hours on the units.As both Sean and Alan have pointed out this two lips-sealarrangement is correctly orient for low pressure applications like the originalintent of the MK 101 units but not ideal for a pressure compensated deep divingthruster.? As Alan pointed out, the 1 atmair initially between the two lip seals is an issue as well as the cardboardspacer.? The outer lip seal will see morepressure that it was designed for which could lead to it failure with the liprim on the ?? shaft being pushed in which could flood the 1 atm space anddamage the cardboard spacer.? At thispoint the inter lip seal is the only seal holding and it is seeing a 4 psi differentialpressure with the pressure inside actually being higher than ambient.? I have not torn down my 101s to see if thespace between the lips seals was flooded.?I hope to do some testing of different seal arrangements forthe MK 101 lower unit in my test chamber at some point. I just have not hadtime and since my thrusters have been behaving, not strongly motivated.? ?The idea of using this pressure reducing / relieving regulatorcame from Hugh Fulton as he has installed the system on the Q-Sub.?Cliff On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go.? It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc.? I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented.? Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious?? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread.? Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. Jon On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, or a cascaded pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. ?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure will push them up against. Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds out through the handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this valve opens. This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. ?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 20:57:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 12:57:00 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> Greg, Cliff's regulator is not a divers second stage reg. It runs direct from the first stage & you can dial in the overpressure you require. The excess pressure above set pressure escapes through the handle of the regulator but only in the "relieving" model. They go for around $150- I contacted the guys from Fugu sub a few years ago. http://www.fugusub.com/fugusub.html about compensating, am pretty sure they use Minn Kotas. They preferred air compensation. They operate out of Florida, so warm shallow waters. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 6/04/2017, at 12:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > What is the cost for a air compensated set up? > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Steve, > Yes I need a bushing (bearing) that holds the prop shaft in the water. It would be like a cutlass prop shat bearing on a boat. > It would have to be long enough to hold the prop strait and true. Also it would need to act as a thrust bearing. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:00 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > By "finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water" do you mean the bearings which will sit outside the pressure housing? > > I started looking into ceramic bearings for just this application, and they were interesting - ie. some of them have no metal parts and little need for lubrication. > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Sean, > I think one of us should develop a magnetic coupler in kit form. Maybe if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a reality. I have come close to starting and even bought the magnets. My stumbling block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I've decided to go with the PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my motors. > > http://www.clearcoproducts. com/pure-silicone-low- viscosity.html > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) > > Jon, > I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made a brushless 2000W thruster > which I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board melted > & it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed to melt > so people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the compensating oil > was being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the wiring tube. > If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but didn't think it > was needed in a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip seals with ambient > pressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next version. > It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the advertised ratings > of commercial thrusters. > I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless thruster if they haven't > yet. Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless. > If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it would be a big > improvement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a specific > finish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more tolerant of > the shaft surface finish & you could avoid this. > Re the heat; one concern is transferring heat off the windings, which oil compensating > will do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have large gauge windings > that can cope with the heat. > Below is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion. > Alan > Alan and the other gentlemens, > > our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. > Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. > And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. > A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal > pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. > > Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. > An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. > > To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. > But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some > douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. > Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. > > Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central > one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Hi Alan, > > Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc. I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented. Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread. Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. > > Jon > > > On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands > on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. > The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals > meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. > The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense > against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. > Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. > > Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, > or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. > Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. > I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure > will push them up against. > Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks > & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds > out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water entering when this valve opens. > This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil > compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. > I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. > There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 21:00:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 20:00:39 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Got my pressure reducing / relieving regulator for $38 on ebay. I already had the scuba first stage regulator as part of my ballast blow system so no incremental cost. Say antoher$50 in SS tubing and Swagelok fittings. BTY, I am not arguing that the current lip seal orientation is the best. I am reserving judgment until I do so testing in a controlled environment. Cliff On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 7:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > What is the cost for a air compensated set up? > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Steve, > Yes I need a bushing (bearing) that holds the prop shaft in the water. It > would be like a cutlass prop shat bearing on a boat. > It would have to be long enough to hold the prop strait and true. Also it > would need to act as a thrust bearing. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:00 PM, Stephen Fordyce via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > By "finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the > water" do you mean the bearings which will sit outside the pressure housing? > > I started looking into ceramic bearings for just this application, and > they were interesting - ie. some of them have no metal parts and little > need for lubrication. > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > I think one of us should develop a magnetic coupler in kit form. Maybe > if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a reality. I > have come close to starting and even bought the magnets. My stumbling > block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by > the water. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > I've decided to go with the PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my > motors. > > http://www.clearcoproducts. com/pure-silicone-low- viscosity.html > > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) > > Jon, > I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made a brushless 2000W > thruster > which I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board > melted > & it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed > to melt > so people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the > compensating oil > was being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the > wiring tube. > If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but > didn't think it > was needed in a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip > seals with ambient > pressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next > version. > It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the > advertised ratings > of commercial thrusters. > I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless > thruster if they haven't > yet. Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless. > If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it > would be a big > improvement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a > specific > finish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more > tolerant of > the shaft surface finish & you could avoid this. > Re the heat; one concern is transferring heat off the windings, which > oil compensating > will do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have > large gauge windings > that can cope with the heat. > Below is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion. > Alan > > Alan and the other gentlemens, > > our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. > Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. > And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. > A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal > pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. > > Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. > An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. > > To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. > But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some > douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. > Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. > > Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central > one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Hi Alan, > > Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're > good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the > list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc. I understand > the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is > not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of > using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented. > Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion > issues of the oil really that serious? I know Alec wrote something about > his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding > that thread. Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation > regardless. > > Jon > > > On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, > Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the > hands > on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him > privately. > The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals > meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is > exceeded. > The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of > defense > against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the > abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. > Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. > Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with > either ambient pressure between them, > or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The outer > seal was regarded as sacrificial. > Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air > gap. > I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as > they need a shoulder that the pressure > will push them up against. > Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. > The regulator is fed air from your tanks > & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated > upside down as the relieving air feeds > out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water entering > when this valve opens. > This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the > advantage that you could either air or oil > compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with > air above ambient pressure. > I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. > There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn > kotas for underwater use. > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 21:43:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 13:43:51 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <716875083.1914233.1491438687045@mail.yahoo.com> References: <678231454.1681069.1487671652556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <678231454.1681069.1487671652556@mail.yahoo.com> <1321807755.50605.1491422577614@mail.yahoo.com> <5e3cf0de-0075-92f5-6c9a-e1147d10457b@psubs.org> <1284478791.1815398.1491432331514@mail.yahoo.com> <2094640252.236862.1491437122661@mail.yahoo.com> <303607351.1884946.1491438191444@mail.yahoo.com> <716875083.1914233.1491438687045@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E64A926-3CED-451E-9788-F2B7D9E8D206@yahoo.com> Hank, did you add a 0 by mistake? $50,000 If that's right I better get back on to my thruster project. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 6/04/2017, at 12:31 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I think magnetic couplers are the way to go if you have the money. Nuytco is selling them like mad for 50,000 a pop. That says it all to me. The potential for muck causing a problem is non existent to me. It is the same with a mechanical seal. I don't think it has to be big either, when you look at the original DW magnetic coupled motors. They are no bigger than a Min-Kota > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:26 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Greg, > The big difference with oil filling is cost savings. The power loss is no issue because we have WAY more battery power than we need as a rule. I have never even come close to running out of battery power, and I travel miles. When I change oil annually, the oil is defiantly darker from carbon I assume, but the motors still look great inside with no noticeable brush loss. > I do agree though that air would be nicer and cleaner, especially now that it is well perfected. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:08 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Cliff/Hank, > > I have to say I agree with Hank on this point. The Minn -Kota was designed to operate with a small amount of external pressure. Pressure compensation with air only needs to be sufficient so that the design limits are not exceeded. Positive pressure (such as during ascent) should be escaping through the scuba regulator. > On the other hand, Cliff is a sharp guy so now I'm curious. > As far as the space between the inner and outer shaft seals- I don't know if sea level pressure in that space would cause a problem or not. It's worth checking. > > Also, as long as we are on the subject here are some other things- > Brush contact pressure is sometime increased in oil filled DC motors. > Arcing in some oils can produce carbon like deposits. > Rotating assemblies in oil DO consume some energy, > Friction from rotating assemblies in oil can also create additional heat (although I think it is inconsequential). > Some sort of Bellows type device is usually added for compression/ expansion in "real" systems. > > All and all, I'm liking air comp more and more for home built subs that don't have complete oil filled tubing electrical systems. > > Greg C > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:51 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Cliff, > I am confused as to why you would want a 4 psi internal pressure pushing against a spring that is trying to keep the seal tight to the shaft. I would think the seal should be reversed with a 4 psi internal pressure to assist the spring in keeping it tight to the shaft. This will also apply to an oil filled motor, in the case of oil filling, the 4 psi would be beneficial in keeping the seal tight. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 3:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I covered this in my Psub presentation at the 2016 PSub convention. But will hit the highlights. > The Minn Kota 101 lower unit (MK part number 2886289) had a shaft seal on the end of the shaft that is connected to the prop. The seal arrangement consists of two identical lip seals oriented to see external pressure. The inner lip seal lands on a shoulder in the Brush End Assembly. This cast aluminum part does three things. The first is hold the DC brush assembly, the second to hold a brass or bronze journal bearing, the third is to provide a cavity to land two lip seals. The stock MK-101 lower unit the two lip seals separated by a cardboard spacer. This seal arrangement is design for a low differential pressure on the order of maximum 30 fsw or about 13 psig. Antidotal experience is that this seal assembly has withstood three times this depth. > For the last two years I have been operating with this stock seal arrangement on the four thrusters on the R300. I use a WATTS R364-02BSS/M1 REGULATOR part number 364-02BSS/M1 to do pneumatic pressure compensation of my four thrusters. I supply pressure to the regulator from the LP pressure side of a scuba first stage regulator and have it adjusted to supply pressure at 4 psi above ambient water pressure. The scuba first stage regulator is supplying pressure to this reducing regulator at 50 psi above ambient water pressure. This is a relieving style pressure reducing regulator meaning that when you ascend, pressure vents from the regulator body. The deepest I have had this arrangement is 160 ft. To date I have had no thruster flooding but I don?t have a lot of hours on the units. > As both Sean and Alan have pointed out this two lips-seal arrangement is correctly orient for low pressure applications like the original intent of the MK 101 units but not ideal for a pressure compensated deep diving thruster. As Alan pointed out, the 1 atm air initially between the two lip seals is an issue as well as the cardboard spacer. The outer lip seal will see more pressure that it was designed for which could lead to it failure with the lip rim on the ?? shaft being pushed in which could flood the 1 atm space and damage the cardboard spacer. At this point the inter lip seal is the only seal holding and it is seeing a 4 psi differential pressure with the pressure inside actually being higher than ambient. I have not torn down my 101s to see if the space between the lips seals was flooded. > I hope to do some testing of different seal arrangements for the MK 101 lower unit in my test chamber at some point. I just have not had time and since my thrusters have been behaving, not strongly motivated. > > The idea of using this pressure reducing / relieving regulator came from Hugh Fulton as he has installed the system on the Q-Sub. > > Cliff > > On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Alan, > > Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc. I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented. Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread. Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. > > Jon > > >> On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Jon, >> Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands >> on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. >> The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals >> meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. >> The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense >> against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. >> Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. >> >> Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, >> or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. >> Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. >> I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure >> will push them up against. >> Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks >> & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds >> out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water entering when this valve opens. >> This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil >> compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. >> I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. >> There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 5 23:54:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 03:54:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> Alan/ Cliff, That's interesting- but I don't understand why it's better than a good working second stage? This is what I did- Three?trolling motors (one vertical and port/starboard pushers) had clear vinyl tubing connected to the tube/pipe?where the wires come out. Each clear piece of tubing ran to the "inlet" side of a small?water filter housing (the kind with a clear plastic?removable sight glass). The?water filter housing served as a junction box so each motor could be removed?individually. The tubing them came out of the "outlet" side of the filter housing and went to a "T" fitting. One piece of tubing carrying the wires went from the "T" to a penetrator in the hull. The other piece of tubing went downward to a set of two "T" fittings that served as a manifold connecting all 3 pieces of tubing together. Finally one Large piece of tubing went to a scuba second stage mounted low on the hull (connected where the mouthpiece usually goes). When the sub descended, air was?"inhaled" into the motors. When the sub ascended, the air in the motors "Exhaled" back out of the reg. Very simple. The only reason I went to oil was that it seemed to be all the rage at that time.? Having used both methods, I have to say that I like the air better. It was easy to set up and take apart without a lot of mess and best of all- no worries about a leak. Greg C From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Greg,Cliff's regulator is not a divers second stage reg. It runs direct from the first stage& you can dial in the overpressure you require. The excess pressure above setpressure escapes through the handle of the regulator but only in the "relieving" model.They go for around $150-I contacted the guys from Fugu sub a few years ago. http://www.fugusub.com/fugusub.htmlabout compensating, am pretty sure they use Minn ?Kotas. They preferred air?compensation. They operate out of Florida, so warm shallow waters.Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/04/2017, at 12:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,What is the cost for a air compensated set up?Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Steve,Yes I need a bushing (bearing) that holds the prop shaft in the water. ?It would be like a cutlass prop shat bearing on a boat. ?It would have to be long enough to hold the prop strait and true. ?Also it would need to act as a thrust bearing.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:00 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,By "finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water" do you mean the bearings which will sit?outside the pressure housing? I started looking into ceramic bearings for just?this application, and they were interesting - ie. some of them have?no metal parts and little need for lubrication. Cheers,Steve On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,I think one of us should?develop a magnetic coupler in kit form.? Maybe if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a reality.? I have come close to starting and even bought the magnets.? My stumbling block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I've decided to go with the?? PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my motors.?http://www.clearcoproducts. com/pure-silicone-low- viscosity.html??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) Jon,I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made?a brushless 2000W thrusterwhich I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board melted& it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed to meltso people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the compensating oilwas being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the wiring tube.If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but didn't think itwas needed in?a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip seals with ambientpressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next version.?? It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the advertised ratingsof commercial thrusters.?? I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless thruster if they haven'tyet.?Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless.?? If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it would be a bigimprovement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a specificfinish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more tolerant ofthe shaft surface finish & you could avoid this.?? Re the heat;?one concern?is transferring heat off the windings, which oil compensatingwill do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have large gauge windings that can cope with the heat.Below?is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion.AlanAlan and the other gentlemens, our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. vbr Carsten ?? From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Hi Alan, Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go.? It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc.? I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented.? Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious?? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread.? Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. Jon On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, or a cascaded pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. ?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure will push them up against. Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds out through the handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this valve opens. This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. ?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 00:33:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 16:33:08 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2298FEA6-4F9F-4B99-93E4-130989179B0D@yahoo.com> Greg, I use 2nd stage octopus regulators on my ambient sub, but feel this is better because you can adjust the regulator to your desired pressure over ambient. With the second stage regulator you might be getting 1psi above ambient if you have it 2ft below the thrusters. Industry standard seems to be around 4-8 psi above ambient. Most of the cheaper commercial compensators rely on a spring whose force varies depending on it's extension which is relative to the oil volume, whereas with Hugh's method you should be able to keep a narrower range. I don't know why the commercial units work in that range. Obviously the more pressure you have the less chance there is of water getting in. I believe mechanical seals like a bit of pressure to help oil their contact faces. Also I have read that you can get an unpredictable pumping action from microscopic spiralling on the prop shaft, that can pump water in against an over-pressure. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 6/04/2017, at 3:54 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan/ Cliff, > > That's interesting- but I don't understand why it's better than a good working second stage? This is what I did- > > Three trolling motors (one vertical and port/starboard pushers) had clear vinyl tubing connected to the tube/pipe where the wires come out. > Each clear piece of tubing ran to the "inlet" side of a small water filter housing (the kind with a clear plastic removable sight glass). > The water filter housing served as a junction box so each motor could be removed individually. > The tubing them came out of the "outlet" side of the filter housing and went to a "T" fitting. > One piece of tubing carrying the wires went from the "T" to a penetrator in the hull. > The other piece of tubing went downward to a set of two "T" fittings that served as a manifold connecting all 3 pieces of tubing together. > Finally one Large piece of tubing went to a scuba second stage mounted low on the hull (connected where the mouthpiece usually goes). > > When the sub descended, air was "inhaled" into the motors. When the sub ascended, the air in the motors "Exhaled" back out of the reg. Very simple. > > The only reason I went to oil was that it seemed to be all the rage at that time. Having used both methods, I have to say that I like the air better. It was easy to set up and take apart without a lot of mess and best of all- no worries about a leak. > > Greg C > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 8:58 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Greg, > Cliff's regulator is not a divers second stage reg. It runs direct from the first stage > & you can dial in the overpressure you require. The excess pressure above set > pressure escapes through the handle of the regulator but only in the "relieving" model. > They go for around $150- > I contacted the guys from Fugu sub a few years ago. http://www.fugusub.com/fugusub.html > about compensating, am pretty sure they use Minn Kotas. They preferred air > compensation. They operate out of Florida, so warm shallow waters. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 6/04/2017, at 12:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Cliff, >> What is the cost for a air compensated set up? >> Hank >> >> >> On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Steve, >> Yes I need a bushing (bearing) that holds the prop shaft in the water. It would be like a cutlass prop shat bearing on a boat. >> It would have to be long enough to hold the prop strait and true. Also it would need to act as a thrust bearing. >> Hank >> >> >> On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:00 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Hank, >> By "finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water" do you mean the bearings which will sit outside the pressure housing? >> >> I started looking into ceramic bearings for just this application, and they were interesting - ie. some of them have no metal parts and little need for lubrication. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Sean, >> I think one of us should develop a magnetic coupler in kit form. Maybe if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a reality. I have come close to starting and even bought the magnets. My stumbling block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water. >> Hank >> >> >> On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> I've decided to go with the PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my motors. >> >> http://www.clearcoproducts. com/pure-silicone-low- viscosity.html >> >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: >> >> From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator >> Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) >> >> Jon, >> I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made a brushless 2000W thruster >> which I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board melted >> & it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed to melt >> so people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the compensating oil >> was being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the wiring tube. >> If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but didn't think it >> was needed in a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip seals with ambient >> pressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next version. >> It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the advertised ratings >> of commercial thrusters. >> I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless thruster if they haven't >> yet. Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless. >> If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it would be a big >> improvement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a specific >> finish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more tolerant of >> the shaft surface finish & you could avoid this. >> Re the heat; one concern is transferring heat off the windings, which oil compensating >> will do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have large gauge windings >> that can cope with the heat. >> Below is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion. >> Alan >> Alan and the other gentlemens, >> >> our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. >> Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. >> And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. >> A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal >> pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. >> >> Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. >> An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. >> >> To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. >> But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some >> douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. >> Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. >> >> Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central >> one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc. I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented. Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread. Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Jon, >> Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands >> on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. >> The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals >> meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. >> The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense >> against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. >> Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. >> >> Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, >> or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. >> Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. >> I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure >> will push them up against. >> Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks >> & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds >> out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water entering when this valve opens. >> This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil >> compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. >> I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. >> There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 08:42:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 06:42:18 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: vz7qcNCNfMs6Wvz7rcb5AC References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> vz7qcNCNfMs6Wvz7rcb5AC Message-ID: <1951aec9-9e4b-4735-b239-558ef8508e4d@email.android.com> Pressure can help, of course, but your sealing arrangement should provide a positive seal even in its absence. The spiral action can be avoided by careful attention to surface finish and eliminating machining marks on your shafts. This doesn't eliminate the problem though. Some seals are designed to be hydrodynamically lubricated by their encapsulating fluids, lifting the seal lip away from direct contact with the shaft (thin film lubrication). The bias pressure ensures that any leakage across the seal is of oil out (which has only environmental consequences) instead of seawater in (which can ruin your day in a hurry). It also allows you to monitor either the compensation pressure or the displacement of the compensator (via either a displacement transducer, which would give you rate information, or a limit switch, which would just tell you if it had bottomed out) so that you can alarm on loss of compensation. As for the air / oil debate, I would look carefully at the dielectric constants of each versus your intended operating depth. Oil behaves pretty much identically at all pressures. Gases increase in density at depth, reducing their effective isolation voltage. Probably not an issue at PSub depths, but for a much deeper diving sub, were I to consider gas compensation, I might look at something like sulfur hexafluoride instead of air, but then you're still dealing with venting the excess gas on ascent. Oil is messy and consumes more power, but provides additional lubrication and an excellent heat transfer mechanism. Sean On April 5, 2017 10:33:08 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Greg, >I use 2nd stage octopus regulators on my ambient sub, but feel this is >better >because you can adjust the regulator to your desired pressure over >ambient. >With the second stage regulator you might be getting 1psi above ambient >if >you have it 2ft below the thrusters. Industry standard seems to be >around >4-8 psi above ambient. Most of the cheaper commercial compensators rely >on a spring whose force varies depending on it's extension which is >relative >to the oil volume, whereas with Hugh's method you should be able to >keep >a narrower range. >I don't know why the commercial units work in that range. Obviously the >more >pressure you have the less chance there is of water getting in. I >believe mechanical >seals like a bit of pressure to help oil their contact faces. Also I >have read that >you can get an unpredictable pumping action from microscopic spiralling >on the >prop shaft, that can pump water in against an over-pressure. >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >> On 6/04/2017, at 3:54 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Alan/ Cliff, >> >> That's interesting- but I don't understand why it's better than a >good working second stage? This is what I did- >> >> Three trolling motors (one vertical and port/starboard pushers) had >clear vinyl tubing connected to the tube/pipe where the wires come out. >> Each clear piece of tubing ran to the "inlet" side of a small water >filter housing (the kind with a clear plastic removable sight glass). >> The water filter housing served as a junction box so each motor could >be removed individually. >> The tubing them came out of the "outlet" side of the filter housing >and went to a "T" fitting. >> One piece of tubing carrying the wires went from the "T" to a >penetrator in the hull. >> The other piece of tubing went downward to a set of two "T" fittings >that served as a manifold connecting all 3 pieces of tubing together. >> Finally one Large piece of tubing went to a scuba second stage >mounted low on the hull (connected where the mouthpiece usually goes). >> >> When the sub descended, air was "inhaled" into the motors. When the >sub ascended, the air in the motors "Exhaled" back out of the reg. Very >simple. >> >> The only reason I went to oil was that it seemed to be all the rage >at that time. Having used both methods, I have to say that I like the >air better. It was easy to set up and take apart without a lot of mess >and best of all- no worries about a leak. >> >> Greg C >> >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 8:58 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator >> >> Greg, >> Cliff's regulator is not a divers second stage reg. It runs direct >from the first stage >> & you can dial in the overpressure you require. The excess pressure >above set >> pressure escapes through the handle of the regulator but only in the >"relieving" model. >> They go for around $150- >> I contacted the guys from Fugu sub a few years ago. >http://www.fugusub.com/fugusub.html >> about compensating, am pretty sure they use Minn Kotas. They >preferred air >> compensation. They operate out of Florida, so warm shallow waters. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 6/04/2017, at 12:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>> >>> Cliff, >>> What is the cost for a air compensated set up? >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:12 PM, hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Steve, >>> Yes I need a bushing (bearing) that holds the prop shaft in the >water. It would be like a cutlass prop shat bearing on a boat. >>> It would have to be long enough to hold the prop strait and true. >Also it would need to act as a thrust bearing. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:00 PM, Stephen Fordyce via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Hank, >>> By "finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by >the water" do you mean the bearings which will sit outside the pressure >housing? >>> >>> I started looking into ceramic bearings for just this application, >and they were interesting - ie. some of them have no metal parts and >little need for lubrication. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>> Sean, >>> I think one of us should develop a magnetic coupler in kit form. >Maybe if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a >reality. I have come close to starting and even bought the magnets. >My stumbling block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is >lubricated by the water. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> I've decided to go with the PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for >my motors. >>> >>> http://www.clearcoproducts. com/pure-silicone-low- viscosity.html >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: >>> >>> From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator >>> Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) >>> >>> Jon, >>> I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made a brushless >2000W thruster >>> which I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor >board melted >>> & it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was >designed to melt >>> so people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the >compensating oil >>> was being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up >the wiring tube. >>> If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, >but didn't think it >>> was needed in a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 >lip seals with ambient >>> pressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the >next version. >>> It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of >the advertised ratings >>> of commercial thrusters. >>> I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a >brushless thruster if they haven't >>> yet. Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now >brushless. >>> If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota >it would be a big >>> improvement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft >to a specific >>> finish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is >more tolerant of >>> the shaft surface finish & you could avoid this. >>> Re the heat; one concern is transferring heat off the windings, >which oil compensating >>> will do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would >have large gauge windings >>> that can cope with the heat. >>> Below is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion. >>> Alan >>> Alan and the other gentlemens, >>> >>> our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller >shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. >>> Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the >first dives. >>> And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty >hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. >>> A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal >>> pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself >and hose work. >>> >>> Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But >still free of any air. >>> An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. >>> >>> To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install >the bladder below the motorcasing. >>> But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is >not nessesary. There seals are good for some >>> douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. >>> Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you >can vent the system direct on the filling point. >>> >>> Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the >earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central >>> one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the >T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. >>> >>> vbr Carsten >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> >>> Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and >you're good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have >come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, >etc. I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that >minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to >understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper >suggests and most psubbers have implemented. Given that water is such >a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really >that serious? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with >this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread. >Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Jon, >>> Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has >the hands >>> on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting >him privately. >>> The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two >seals >>> meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating >is exceeded. >>> The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line >of defense >>> against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all >the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. >>> Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. >>> >>> Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but >with either ambient pressure between them, >>> or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The >outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. >>> Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the >air gap. >>> I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not >as they need a shoulder that the pressure >>> will push them up against. >>> Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his >motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks >>> & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is >orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds >>> out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water >entering when this valve opens. >>> This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has >the advantage that you could either air or oil >>> compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced >with air above ambient pressure. >>> I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. >>> There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying >Minn kotas for underwater use. >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 09:15:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 08:15:53 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive Message-ID: I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have to take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and retrieval of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot time to experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I need help with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to schedule a local lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our local magnificent mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to build a swimming pool (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, diving and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first attempt was a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the boat and damaging the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. A fabricated a boom trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some scrap steel I got from the local junk yard. The only issue I had was the cheap eBay made in China winch struggled with the load even though it was rated at 12,000 lbs. Cliff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 09:18:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 08:18:51 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: James, this is an interesting approach using the scuba second stage demand regulator for pressure compensation. Do you have any pictures of the setup? Cliff On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 10:54 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alan/ Cliff, > > That's interesting- but I don't understand why it's better than a good > working second stage? This is what I did- > > Three trolling motors (one vertical and port/starboard pushers) had clear > vinyl tubing connected to the tube/pipe where the wires come out. > Each clear piece of tubing ran to the "inlet" side of a small water filter > housing (the kind with a clear plastic removable sight glass). > The water filter housing served as a junction box so each motor could be > removed individually. > The tubing them came out of the "outlet" side of the filter housing and > went to a "T" fitting. > One piece of tubing carrying the wires went from the "T" to a penetrator > in the hull. > The other piece of tubing went downward to a set of two "T" fittings that > served as a manifold connecting all 3 pieces of tubing together. > Finally one Large piece of tubing went to a scuba second stage mounted low > on the hull (connected where the mouthpiece usually goes). > > When the sub descended, air was "inhaled" into the motors. When the sub > ascended, the air in the motors "Exhaled" back out of the reg. Very simple. > > The only reason I went to oil was that it seemed to be all the rage at > that time. Having used both methods, I have to say that I like the air > better. It was easy to set up and take apart without a lot of mess and best > of all- no worries about a leak. > > Greg C > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 5, 2017 8:58 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Greg, > Cliff's regulator is not a divers second stage reg. It runs direct from > the first stage > & you can dial in the overpressure you require. The excess pressure above > set > pressure escapes through the handle of the regulator but only in the > "relieving" model. > They go for around $150- > I contacted the guys from Fugu sub a few years ago. > http://www.fugusub.com/fugusub.html > about compensating, am pretty sure they use Minn Kotas. They preferred > air > compensation. They operate out of Florida, so warm shallow waters. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 6/04/2017, at 12:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > What is the cost for a air compensated set up? > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Steve, > Yes I need a bushing (bearing) that holds the prop shaft in the water. It > would be like a cutlass prop shat bearing on a boat. > It would have to be long enough to hold the prop strait and true. Also it > would need to act as a thrust bearing. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:00 PM, Stephen Fordyce via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > By "finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the > water" do you mean the bearings which will sit outside the pressure housing? > > I started looking into ceramic bearings for just this application, and > they were interesting - ie. some of them have no metal parts and little > need for lubrication. > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > I think one of us should develop a magnetic coupler in kit form. Maybe > if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a reality. I > have come close to starting and even bought the magnets. My stumbling > block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by > the water. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > I've decided to go with the PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my > motors. > > http://www.clearcoproducts. com/pure-silicone-low- viscosity.html > > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) > > Jon, > I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made a brushless 2000W > thruster > which I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board > melted > & it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed > to melt > so people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the > compensating oil > was being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the > wiring tube. > If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but > didn't think it > was needed in a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip > seals with ambient > pressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next > version. > It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the > advertised ratings > of commercial thrusters. > I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless > thruster if they haven't > yet. Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless. > If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it > would be a big > improvement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a > specific > finish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more > tolerant of > the shaft surface finish & you could avoid this. > Re the heat; one concern is transferring heat off the windings, which > oil compensating > will do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have > large gauge windings > that can cope with the heat. > Below is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion. > Alan > > Alan and the other gentlemens, > > our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. > Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. > And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. > A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal > pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. > > Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. > An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. > > To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. > But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some > douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. > Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. > > Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central > one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Hi Alan, > > Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're > good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the > list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc. I understand > the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is > not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of > using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented. > Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion > issues of the oil really that serious? I know Alec wrote something about > his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding > that thread. Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation > regardless. > > Jon > > > On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, > Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the > hands > on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him > privately. > The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals > meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is > exceeded. > The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of > defense > against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the > abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. > Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. > Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with > either ambient pressure between them, > or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The outer > seal was regarded as sacrificial. > Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air > gap. > I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as > they need a shoulder that the pressure > will push them up against. > Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. > The regulator is fed air from your tanks > & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated > upside down as the relieving air feeds > out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water entering > when this valve opens. > This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the > advantage that you could either air or oil > compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with > air above ambient pressure. > I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. > There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn > kotas for underwater use. > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 10:16:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:16:10 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Cliff Looks great. Dedicated sub test pool! and no grandchildren in sight. Did look a bit precarious on the lift. But all worked ok. regards James On 6 April 2017 at 14:15, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a > hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have to > take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and retrieval > of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot time to > experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I need help > with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to schedule a local > lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our local magnificent > mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to build a swimming pool > (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. > > Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, diving > and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first attempt was > a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the boat and damaging > the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. A fabricated a boom > trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some scrap steel I got from the > local junk yard. The only issue I had was the cheap eBay made in China > winch struggled with the load even though it was rated at 12,000 lbs. > > Cliff > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 10:26:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:26:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nice! Great job Cliff. On 4/6/2017 9:15 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a > hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have > to take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and > retrieval of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot > time to experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I > need help with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to > schedule a local lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our > local magnificent mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to > build a swimming pool (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. > > Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, > diving and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first > attempt was a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the > boat and damaging the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. > A fabricated a boom trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some > scrap steel I got from the local junk yard. The only issue I had was > the cheap eBay made in China winch struggled with the load even though > it was rated at 12,000 lbs. > > Cliff > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 11:02:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 11:02:05 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive Message-ID: <15890d.1d43a103.4617b269@aol.com> Cliff, That's just great! Thanks for posting the video. Did you have an opportunity to evaluate the function of the dome for visibility or distortion either horizontally or downward? Jim In a message dated 4/6/2017 9:26:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: Nice! Great job Cliff. On 4/6/2017 9:15 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a > hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have > to take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and > retrieval of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot > time to experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I > need help with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to > schedule a local lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our > local magnificent mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to > build a swimming pool (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. > > Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, > diving and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first > attempt was a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the > boat and damaging the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. > A fabricated a boom trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some > scrap steel I got from the local junk yard. The only issue I had was > the cheap eBay made in China winch struggled with the load even though > it was rated at 12,000 lbs. > > Cliff > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 11:14:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 11:14:48 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The ultimate pool toy! What impressed me was the lack of bumpers or anyone pushing you off the sides of the pool. Must have been tricky without rear-view mirrors, keeping the stern off the concrete walls. Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a > hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have to > take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and retrieval > of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot time to > experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I need help > with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to schedule a local > lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our local magnificent > mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to build a swimming pool > (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. > > Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, diving > and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first attempt was > a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the boat and damaging > the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. A fabricated a boom > trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some scrap steel I got from the > local junk yard. The only issue I had was the cheap eBay made in China > winch struggled with the load even though it was rated at 12,000 lbs. > > Cliff > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 11:15:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:15:16 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: <15890d.1d43a103.4617b269@aol.com> References: <15890d.1d43a103.4617b269@aol.com> Message-ID: Yes while sitting on the bottom, I looked at how visible the bottom was, blinds spots and overall distortion. Of course viewing horizontal and up is great view but distorted in that objects look farther away than actual. To the port and starboard side I can see objects on the bottom within about a meter of the boat. Looking forward it much farther out. Directly behind the pilot is a blind spot but I can see to the starboard and port behind. So looking horizontally, I get about a 300 degree view. New LED lights worked great at night. the front and side of the boat is totally lit up. I am thinking about adding two more 5K lights directed backward. This would leave the boat in a pocket of light at night. Cliff On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:02 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > That's just great! Thanks for posting the video. Did you have an > opportunity to evaluate the function of the dome for visibility or > distortion either horizontally or downward? > Jim > > In a message dated 4/6/2017 9:26:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > > Nice! Great job Cliff. > > > On 4/6/2017 9:15 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a > > hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have > > to take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and > > retrieval of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot > > time to experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I > > need help with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to > > schedule a local lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our > > local magnificent mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to > > build a swimming pool (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. > > > > Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, > > diving and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first > > attempt was a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the > > boat and damaging the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. > > A fabricated a boom trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some > > scrap steel I got from the local junk yard. The only issue I had was > > the cheap eBay made in China winch struggled with the load even though > > it was rated at 12,000 lbs. > > > > Cliff > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 11:15:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:15:50 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. It was fun being able to see! On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Nice! Great job Cliff. > > > On 4/6/2017 9:15 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a hobby! >> The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have to take the >> boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and retrieval of the >> boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot time to experiment with >> the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I need help with launching and >> retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to schedule a local lake dive. When I >> finally get the boat to one of our local magnificent mud holes, I can't >> see a thing, so I decided to build a swimming pool (allegedly for my grand >> kids!) for dunk test. >> >> Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, diving >> and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first attempt was >> a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the boat and damaging >> the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. A fabricated a boom >> trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some scrap steel I got from the >> local junk yard. The only issue I had was the cheap eBay made in China >> winch struggled with the load even though it was rated at 12,000 lbs. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 11:20:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:20:38 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Definitely, a good pool toy. The aft nozzles are nylon plastic. They worked like a bumper. I did find that I scratched up the paint job on the vertical thruster protectors. I am thinking about coating about a 4 inch section of each with some hard plastic before I try this again. Maybe I could use something like they paint on airplane wings to show where to step. Cliff On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > The ultimate pool toy! What impressed me was the lack of bumpers or anyone > pushing you off the sides of the pool. Must have been tricky without > rear-view mirrors, keeping the stern off the concrete walls. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a >> hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have to >> take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and retrieval >> of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot time to >> experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I need help >> with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to schedule a local >> lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our local magnificent >> mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to build a swimming pool >> (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. >> >> Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, diving >> and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first attempt was >> a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the boat and damaging >> the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. A fabricated a boom >> trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some scrap steel I got from the >> local junk yard. The only issue I had was the cheap eBay made in China >> winch struggled with the load even though it was rated at 12,000 lbs. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 11:24:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:24:04 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lift felt a bit precarious mostly due to the weakness of the winch. When I was pulling the boom trailer away from the pool, I should have taken it quite a fit slower. Lessons learned! Cliff On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:16 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Cliff > > Looks great. Dedicated sub test pool! and no grandchildren in sight. > Did look a bit precarious on the lift. But all worked ok. > regards > James > > On 6 April 2017 at 14:15, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a >> hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have to >> take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and retrieval >> of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot time to >> experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I need help >> with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to schedule a local >> lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our local magnificent >> mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to build a swimming pool >> (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. >> >> Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, diving >> and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first attempt was >> a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the boat and damaging >> the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. A fabricated a boom >> trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some scrap steel I got from the >> local junk yard. The only issue I had was the cheap eBay made in China >> winch struggled with the load even though it was rated at 12,000 lbs. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 11:41:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:41:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1305768337.2236332.1491493267253@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Cliff! This is Greg Cottrell (my first name is James)I don't have any pictures of that?set up. The sub had air comp from about 1994 to about 1998. I'm going to set it up again very soon and I'll be sure to take pics this time. Greg From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator James, this is an interesting approach using the scuba second stage demand regulator for pressure compensation.? Do you have any pictures of the setup?? Cliff On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 10:54 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan/ Cliff, That's interesting- but I don't understand why it's better than a good working second stage? This is what I did- Three?trolling motors (one vertical and port/starboard pushers) had clear vinyl tubing connected to the tube/pipe?where the wires come out. Each clear piece of tubing ran to the "inlet" side of a small?water filter housing (the kind with a clear plastic?removable sight glass). The?water filter housing served as a junction box so each motor could be removed?individually. The tubing them came out of the "outlet" side of the filter housing and went to a "T" fitting. One piece of tubing carrying the wires went from the "T" to a penetrator in the hull. The other piece of tubing went downward to a set of two "T" fittings that served as a manifold connecting all 3 pieces of tubing together. Finally one Large piece of tubing went to a scuba second stage mounted low on the hull (connected where the mouthpiece usually goes). When the sub descended, air was?"inhaled" into the motors. When the sub ascended, the air in the motors "Exhaled" back out of the reg. Very simple. The only reason I went to oil was that it seemed to be all the rage at that time.? Having used both methods, I have to say that I like the air better. It was easy to set up and take apart without a lot of mess and best of all- no worries about a leak. Greg C From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Greg,Cliff's regulator is not a divers second stage reg. It runs direct from the first stage& you can dial in the overpressure you require. The excess pressure above setpressure escapes through the handle of the regulator but only in the "relieving" model.They go for around $150-I contacted the guys from Fugu sub a few years ago. http://www.fugusub.com/ fugusub.htmlabout compensating, am pretty sure they use Minn ?Kotas. They preferred air?compensation. They operate out of Florida, so warm shallow waters.Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/04/2017, at 12:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,What is the cost for a air compensated set up?Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Steve,Yes I need a bushing (bearing) that holds the prop shaft in the water.? It would be like a cutlass prop shat bearing on a boat. ?It would have to be long enough to hold the prop strait and true.? Also it would need to act as a thrust bearing.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:00 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,By "finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water" do you mean the bearings which will sit?outside the pressure housing? I started looking into ceramic bearings for just?this application, and they were interesting - ie. some of them have?no metal parts and little need for lubrication. Cheers,Steve On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,I think one of us should?develop a magnetic coupler in kit form.? Maybe if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a reality.? I have come close to starting and even bought the magnets.? My stumbling block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the water.Hank On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I've decided to go with the?? PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my motors.?http://www.clearcoproducts. com/pure-silicone-low- viscosity.html??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) Jon,I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made?a brushless 2000W thrusterwhich I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board melted& it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed to meltso people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the compensating oilwas being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the wiring tube.If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but didn't think itwas needed in?a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip seals with ambientpressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next version.?? It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the advertised ratingsof commercial thrusters.?? I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless thruster if they haven'tyet.?Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless.?? If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it would be a bigimprovement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a specificfinish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more tolerant ofthe shaft surface finish & you could avoid this.?? Re the heat;?one concern?is transferring heat off the windings, which oil compensatingwill do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have large gauge windings that can cope with the heat.Below?is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion.AlanAlan and the other gentlemens, our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. vbr Carsten ?? From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Hi Alan, Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're good to go.? It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc.? I understand the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented.? Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion issues of the oil really that serious?? I know Alec wrote something about his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding that thread.? Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation regardless. Jon On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the hands on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him privately. The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is exceeded. The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of defense against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with either ambient pressure between them, or a cascaded pressure system,?and normally mechanical seals.?The outer seal was regarded as sacrificial. ?? Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air gap. I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as they need a shoulder that the pressure will push them up against. Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. The regulator is fed air from your tanks & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated upside down as the relieving air feeds out through the handle portion & the orientation?will stop water entering when this valve opens. This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the advantage that you could either air or oil compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with air above ambient pressure. I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. ?? There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn kotas for underwater use. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 11:49:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:49:29 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <1305768337.2236332.1491493267253@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <1305768337.2236332.1491493267253@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: OK, looking forward to seeing them. Cliff On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:41 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Cliff! > > This is Greg Cottrell (my first name is James) > I don't have any pictures of that set up. The sub had air comp from about > 1994 to about 1998. I'm going to set it up again very soon and I'll be sure > to take pics this time. > > Greg > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 6, 2017 9:21 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > James, this is an interesting approach using the scuba second stage demand > regulator for pressure compensation. Do you have any pictures of the > setup? > > Cliff > > On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 10:54 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alan/ Cliff, > > That's interesting- but I don't understand why it's better than a good > working second stage? This is what I did- > > Three trolling motors (one vertical and port/starboard pushers) had clear > vinyl tubing connected to the tube/pipe where the wires come out. > Each clear piece of tubing ran to the "inlet" side of a small water filter > housing (the kind with a clear plastic removable sight glass). > The water filter housing served as a junction box so each motor could be > removed individually. > The tubing them came out of the "outlet" side of the filter housing and > went to a "T" fitting. > One piece of tubing carrying the wires went from the "T" to a penetrator > in the hull. > The other piece of tubing went downward to a set of two "T" fittings that > served as a manifold connecting all 3 pieces of tubing together. > Finally one Large piece of tubing went to a scuba second stage mounted low > on the hull (connected where the mouthpiece usually goes). > > When the sub descended, air was "inhaled" into the motors. When the sub > ascended, the air in the motors "Exhaled" back out of the reg. Very simple. > > The only reason I went to oil was that it seemed to be all the rage at > that time. Having used both methods, I have to say that I like the air > better. It was easy to set up and take apart without a lot of mess and best > of all- no worries about a leak. > > Greg C > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 5, 2017 8:58 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Greg, > Cliff's regulator is not a divers second stage reg. It runs direct from > the first stage > & you can dial in the overpressure you require. The excess pressure above > set > pressure escapes through the handle of the regulator but only in the > "relieving" model. > They go for around $150- > I contacted the guys from Fugu sub a few years ago. http://www.fugusub.com/ > fugusub.html > about compensating, am pretty sure they use Minn Kotas. They preferred > air > compensation. They operate out of Florida, so warm shallow waters. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 6/04/2017, at 12:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Cliff, > What is the cost for a air compensated set up? > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Steve, > Yes I need a bushing (bearing) that holds the prop shaft in the water. It > would be like a cutlass prop shat bearing on a boat. > It would have to be long enough to hold the prop strait and true. Also it > would need to act as a thrust bearing. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 6:00 PM, Stephen Fordyce via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > By "finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by the > water" do you mean the bearings which will sit outside the pressure housing? > > I started looking into ceramic bearings for just this application, and > they were interesting - ie. some of them have no metal parts and little > need for lubrication. > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Sean, > I think one of us should develop a magnetic coupler in kit form. Maybe > if there is an interest with potential sales it could become a reality. I > have come close to starting and even bought the magnets. My stumbling > block is finding a bushing for the propeller shaft that is lubricated by > the water. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:29 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > I've decided to go with the PSF - 20 cSt Silicone Bath Fluid for my > motors. > > http://www.clearcoproducts. com/pure-silicone-low- viscosity.html > > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 22:48:50 +0000 (UTC) > > Jon, > I don't know whether you have followed, but I have made a brushless 2000W > thruster > which I trialed in a pool for 30 hrs. The glue on the hall sensor board > melted > & it stopped because the timing went out. Apparently the glue was designed > to melt > so people could adjust the timing. The thruster got hot because the > compensating oil > was being forced away from the motor through centrifugal force, & up the > wiring tube. > If I had an overpressure on the system I could have prevented this, but > didn't think it > was needed in a few feet of water. I was running this motor with 2 lip > seals with ambient > pressure in between, but have purchased a mechanical seal for the next > version. > It had a comparable or better thrust to Watt ratio than a lot of the > advertised ratings > of commercial thrusters. > I think it is a matter of time before Minn kota put out a brushless > thruster if they haven't > yet. Most of the commercial ROV & submarine thrusters are now brushless. > If there was enough room to fit a mechanical seal on a Minn kota it > would be a big > improvement. The white paper suggests grinding the Minn kota shaft to a > specific > finish, with matching bearing & seal, however a mechanical seal is more > tolerant of > the shaft surface finish & you could avoid this. > Re the heat; one concern is transferring heat off the windings, which > oil compensating > will do 100 times better than air. However Minn kota motors would have > large gauge windings > that can cope with the heat. > Below is a 2010 thread by Carsten dealing with expansion. > Alan > > Alan and the other gentlemens, > > our expierence with oil filled motors, batterys or even propeller shafts is that the oil expand if the motor is runing longer time. > Simple because its warm up. We had that problem on Eurosub on the first dives. > And on Euronaut we filled the bladder complet up and the get pretty hard in the hot summer just by sun heating the sub. > A full filled bladder with over pressure creates a lot of interal > pressure in the wrong direct - a lot of force for the bladder itself and hose work. > > Therefore our bladder are only half expand during the filling. But still free of any air. > An other point is that the bladder has to be not to small. > > To create a slightly overpressure on the motorseal you just install the bladder below the motorcasing. > But we found out that on trolling motor (electric outboards) this is not nessesary. There seals are good for some > douzend feets at least - so you can install the bladder else were. > Filling is simpler if the bladder is slightly over the motor - you can vent the system direct on the filling point. > > Another point is that we install now one bladder per motor - in the earlier sub (Sgt.Peppers) we install a central > one for all motors. Hard to find a leak after a dive with all the T-crossing piepings and motorseals.. > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Thursday, April 6, 2017 8:31 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Hi Alan, > > Yeah, that white paper pretty much just states fill it with oil and you're > good to go. It doesn't address some of the issues that have come up on the > list regarding heat and expansion, inter-seal cavity, etc. I understand > the drive to find a perfect solution and that minn-kota oil compensation is > not perfect, I'm just trying to understand the real-world ramifications of > using it as that white paper suggests and most psubbers have implemented. > Given that water is such a good heat sink, are the heat and expansion > issues of the oil really that serious? I know Alec wrote something about > his experience with this some time ago but am having a hard time finding > that thread. Pretty sure SNOOPY is still using simple oil compensation > regardless. > > Jon > > > On 4/5/2017 4:02 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, > Cliff has been doing a lot of work on Minn kota modifications & has the > hands > on experience. If he's not tuning in it would be worth contacting him > privately. > The Minn-kota seal set up is not ideal, with the gap between the two seals > meaning one or the other seals will fail when their pressure rating is > exceeded. > The outer seal seems to serve a double purpose, being the first line of > defense > against water ingress & also a sacrificial seal that will see all the > abrasive muck stirred up by the prop. > Noticed in this kit that the outer seal has a shield to protect it. > Historically in deep diving set ups they have had dual seals, but with > either ambient pressure between them, > or a cascaded pressure system, and normally mechanical seals. The outer > seal was regarded as sacrificial. > Maybe you could pack between the seals with grease to reduce the air > gap. > I am not sure whether you could simply reverse the inner seal or not as > they need a shoulder that the pressure > will push them up against. > Cliff is using a small relieving air regulator to compensate his motors. > The regulator is fed air from your tanks > & is set at an overpressure of about 4psi. The regulator is orientated > upside down as the relieving air feeds > out through the handle portion & the orientation will stop water entering > when this valve opens. > This system was suggested by Hugh, & Cliff is trialing it. It has the > advantage that you could either air or oil > compensate. If your motor ran out of oil it would just be replaced with > air above ambient pressure. > I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve opens. > There is this very good Psub resource from an expert in modifying Minn > kotas for underwater use. > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 11:58:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 11:58:24 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now that is something I would love to try! I've dreamed of a sub in pool since forever. Cliff, the R-300 is looking finer than ever with her new thrusters. ~ Doug On 4/6/17, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Lift felt a bit precarious mostly due to the weakness of the winch. When I > was pulling the boom trailer away from the pool, I should have taken it > quite a fit slower. Lessons learned! > > Cliff > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:16 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Cliff >> >> Looks great. Dedicated sub test pool! and no grandchildren in sight. >> Did look a bit precarious on the lift. But all worked ok. >> regards >> James >> >> On 6 April 2017 at 14:15, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a >>> hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have to >>> take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and >>> retrieval >>> of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot time to >>> experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I need help >>> with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to schedule a >>> local >>> lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our local magnificent >>> mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to build a swimming pool >>> (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. >>> >>> Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, diving >>> and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first attempt >>> was >>> a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the boat and >>> damaging >>> the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. A fabricated a boom >>> trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some scrap steel I got from >>> the >>> local junk yard. The only issue I had was the cheap eBay made in China >>> winch struggled with the load even though it was rated at 12,000 lbs. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 12:04:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 11:04:33 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The new thrusters work so much better than the control system I had on the boat when I was at your place in Islamorada. I am so looking forward to launching the boat at your place again and see the ocean! Best Regards On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Now that is something I would love to try! I've dreamed of a sub in > pool since forever. Cliff, the R-300 is looking finer than ever with > her new thrusters. ~ Doug > > On 4/6/17, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Lift felt a bit precarious mostly due to the weakness of the winch. > When I > > was pulling the boom trailer away from the pool, I should have taken it > > quite a fit slower. Lessons learned! > > > > Cliff > > > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:16 AM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > >> Hi Cliff > >> > >> Looks great. Dedicated sub test pool! and no grandchildren in sight. > >> Did look a bit precarious on the lift. But all worked ok. > >> regards > >> James > >> > >> On 6 April 2017 at 14:15, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> > >>> I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a > >>> hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have to > >>> take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and > >>> retrieval > >>> of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot time to > >>> experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I need help > >>> with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to schedule a > >>> local > >>> lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our local magnificent > >>> mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to build a swimming pool > >>> (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. > >>> > >>> Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, diving > >>> and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first attempt > >>> was > >>> a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the boat and > >>> damaging > >>> the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. A fabricated a boom > >>> trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some scrap steel I got from > >>> the > >>> local junk yard. The only issue I had was the cheap eBay made in China > >>> winch struggled with the load even though it was rated at 12,000 lbs. > >>> > >>> Cliff > >>> > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 12:21:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 12:21:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I too am excited to see that baby go! ~ Doug On 4/6/17, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The new thrusters work so much better than the control system I had on the > boat when I was at your place in Islamorada. I am so looking forward to > launching the boat at your place again and see the ocean! > > Best Regards > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Now that is something I would love to try! I've dreamed of a sub in >> pool since forever. Cliff, the R-300 is looking finer than ever with >> her new thrusters. ~ Doug >> >> On 4/6/17, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> > Lift felt a bit precarious mostly due to the weakness of the winch. >> When I >> > was pulling the boom trailer away from the pool, I should have taken it >> > quite a fit slower. Lessons learned! >> > >> > Cliff >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:16 AM, James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles < >> > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Cliff >> >> >> >> Looks great. Dedicated sub test pool! and no grandchildren in sight. >> >> Did look a bit precarious on the lift. But all worked ok. >> >> regards >> >> James >> >> >> >> On 6 April 2017 at 14:15, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a >> >>> hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have >> >>> to >> >>> take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and >> >>> retrieval >> >>> of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot time to >> >>> experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I need >> >>> help >> >>> with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to schedule a >> >>> local >> >>> lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our local >> >>> magnificent >> >>> mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to build a swimming >> >>> pool >> >>> (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. >> >>> >> >>> Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, >> >>> diving >> >>> and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first >> >>> attempt >> >>> was >> >>> a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the boat and >> >>> damaging >> >>> the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. A fabricated a >> >>> boom >> >>> trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some scrap steel I got >> >>> from >> >>> the >> >>> local junk yard. The only issue I had was the cheap eBay made in >> >>> China >> >>> winch struggled with the load even though it was rated at 12,000 lbs. >> >>> >> >>> Cliff >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 14:22:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 18:22:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1350936266.2545068.1491502946633@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,You are the king,,,hands down,,?Hank On Thursday, April 6, 2017 10:21 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I too am excited to see that baby go! ~ Doug On 4/6/17, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The new thrusters work so much better than the control system I had on the > boat when I was at your place in Islamorada.? I am so looking forward to > launching the boat at your place again and see the ocean! > > Best Regards > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Now that is something I would love to try! I've dreamed of a sub in >> pool since forever. Cliff, the R-300 is looking finer than ever with >> her new thrusters. ~ Doug >> >> On 4/6/17, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> > Lift felt a bit precarious mostly due to the weakness of the winch. >> When I >> > was pulling the boom trailer away from the pool, I should have taken it >> > quite a fit slower.? Lessons learned! >> > >> > Cliff >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:16 AM, James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles < >> > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Cliff >> >> >> >> Looks great.? Dedicated sub test pool!? and no grandchildren in sight. >> >> Did look a bit precarious on the lift.? But all worked ok. >> >> regards >> >> James >> >> >> >> On 6 April 2017 at 14:15, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a >> >>> hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have >> >>> to >> >>> take the boat to the lake.? I find that transport, launching and >> >>> retrieval >> >>> of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot time to >> >>> experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I need >> >>> help >> >>> with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to schedule a >> >>> local >> >>> lake dive.? When I finally get the boat to one of our local >> >>> magnificent >> >>>? mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to build a swimming >> >>> pool >> >>> (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. >> >>> >> >>> Below is a link to a? short YouTube video showing the launching, >> >>> diving >> >>> and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun.? This first >> >>> attempt >> >>> was >> >>> a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the boat and >> >>> damaging >> >>> the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok.? A fabricated a >> >>> boom >> >>> trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some scrap steel I got >> >>> from >> >>> the >> >>> local junk yard. The only issue I had was the cheap eBay made in >> >>> China >> >>> winch struggled with the load even though it was rated at 12,000 lbs. >> >>> >> >>> Cliff >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 15:50:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 07:50:17 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: <1350936266.2545068.1491502946633@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1350936266.2545068.1491502946633@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Cliff, I am tempted to put this on Facebook, but are having trouble thinking of a relevant caption for it! Mind you I did testing of my ambient in a pool. I have pictures of a second stage regulator compensating system. The main component, the divers reg that you suck on, is an octopus type. This is a spare reg that usually clips on to the divers BCD jacket or just hangs there. Octopus regulators are less sensitive, cheaper & less prone to "free flow" ( air unexpectedly flowing on own accord). I removed the mouth piece & replaced it with a hose. This ran to a T junction with the wiring tube & air flowed down the wiring tube & into the thruster. With a bit of heat I fitted short extension tubes on the outlet valves of the reg to stop any water coming in when they opened. Not all regulators would be as easy as mine was to adapt. However you still have the better system in my mind as long as it works OK. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 7/04/2017, at 6:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > You are the king,,,hands down,, > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 6, 2017 10:21 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I too am excited to see that baby go! ~ Doug > > On 4/6/17, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > The new thrusters work so much better than the control system I had on the > > boat when I was at your place in Islamorada. I am so looking forward to > > launching the boat at your place again and see the ocean! > > > > Best Regards > > > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > >> Now that is something I would love to try! I've dreamed of a sub in > >> pool since forever. Cliff, the R-300 is looking finer than ever with > >> her new thrusters. ~ Doug > >> > >> On 4/6/17, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > Lift felt a bit precarious mostly due to the weakness of the winch. > >> When I > >> > was pulling the boom trailer away from the pool, I should have taken it > >> > quite a fit slower. Lessons learned! > >> > > >> > Cliff > >> > > >> > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:16 AM, James Frankland via > >> Personal_Submersibles < > >> > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi Cliff > >> >> > >> >> Looks great. Dedicated sub test pool! and no grandchildren in sight. > >> >> Did look a bit precarious on the lift. But all worked ok. > >> >> regards > >> >> James > >> >> > >> >> On 6 April 2017 at 14:15, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a > >> >>> hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have > >> >>> to > >> >>> take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and > >> >>> retrieval > >> >>> of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot time to > >> >>> experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I need > >> >>> help > >> >>> with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to schedule a > >> >>> local > >> >>> lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our local > >> >>> magnificent > >> >>> mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to build a swimming > >> >>> pool > >> >>> (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. > >> >>> > >> >>> Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, > >> >>> diving > >> >>> and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first > >> >>> attempt > >> >>> was > >> >>> a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the boat and > >> >>> damaging > >> >>> the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. A fabricated a > >> >>> boom > >> >>> trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some scrap steel I got > >> >>> from > >> >>> the > >> >>> local junk yard. The only issue I had was the cheap eBay made in > >> >>> China > >> >>> winch struggled with the load even though it was rated at 12,000 lbs. > >> >>> > >> >>> Cliff > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 16:01:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 08:01:07 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] R300 Pool dive In-Reply-To: References: <1350936266.2545068.1491502946633@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Cliff, you could set up adsence ( think that's the name) on your Youtube account. If the video goes viral you could make a bit of money! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 7/04/2017, at 7:50 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > I am tempted to put this on Facebook, but are having trouble > thinking of a relevant caption for it! > Mind you I did testing of my ambient in a pool. > I have pictures of a second stage regulator compensating system. > The main component, the divers reg that you suck on, is an octopus > type. This is a spare reg that usually clips on to the divers BCD jacket > or just hangs there. Octopus regulators are less sensitive, cheaper > & less prone to "free flow" ( air unexpectedly flowing on own accord). > I removed the mouth piece & replaced it with a hose. This ran to a T > junction with the wiring tube & air flowed down the wiring tube & into the thruster. > With a bit of heat I fitted short extension tubes on the outlet valves > of the reg to stop any water coming in when they opened. > Not all regulators would be as easy as mine was to adapt. > However you still have the better system in my mind as long as it works > OK. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 7/04/2017, at 6:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Cliff, >> You are the king,,,hands down,, >> Hank >> >> >> On Thursday, April 6, 2017 10:21 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> I too am excited to see that baby go! ~ Doug >> >> On 4/6/17, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> > The new thrusters work so much better than the control system I had on the >> > boat when I was at your place in Islamorada. I am so looking forward to >> > launching the boat at your place again and see the ocean! >> > >> > Best Regards >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < >> > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Now that is something I would love to try! I've dreamed of a sub in >> >> pool since forever. Cliff, the R-300 is looking finer than ever with >> >> her new thrusters. ~ Doug >> >> >> >> On 4/6/17, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> > Lift felt a bit precarious mostly due to the weakness of the winch. >> >> When I >> >> > was pulling the boom trailer away from the pool, I should have taken it >> >> > quite a fit slower. Lessons learned! >> >> > >> >> > Cliff >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:16 AM, James Frankland via >> >> Personal_Submersibles < >> >> > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Hi Cliff >> >> >> >> >> >> Looks great. Dedicated sub test pool! and no grandchildren in sight. >> >> >> Did look a bit precarious on the lift. But all worked ok. >> >> >> regards >> >> >> James >> >> >> >> >> >> On 6 April 2017 at 14:15, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> I look at my boat as a platform for tinkering. It is after all a >> >> >>> hobby! The problem I have is that to evaluate a modification, I have >> >> >>> to >> >> >>> take the boat to the lake. I find that transport, launching and >> >> >>> retrieval >> >> >>> of the boat burns a lot of time so I end not having a lot time to >> >> >>> experiment with the mods as well as fun dives. Unlike Hank, I need >> >> >>> help >> >> >>> with launching and retrieval so it's a pain it the butt to schedule a >> >> >>> local >> >> >>> lake dive. When I finally get the boat to one of our local >> >> >>> magnificent >> >> >>> mud holes, I can't see a thing, so I decided to build a swimming >> >> >>> pool >> >> >>> (allegedly for my grand kids!) for dunk test. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Below is a link to a short YouTube video showing the launching, >> >> >>> diving >> >> >>> and retrieval of my boat in the pool, just for fun. This first >> >> >>> attempt >> >> >>> was >> >> >>> a bit nerve racking as I could just see me dropping the boat and >> >> >>> damaging >> >> >>> the pool and the boat but in end, all came out ok. A fabricated a >> >> >>> boom >> >> >>> trailer from a set of mobile home axles and some scrap steel I got >> >> >>> from >> >> >>> the >> >> >>> local junk yard. The only issue I had was the cheap eBay made in >> >> >>> China >> >> >>> winch struggled with the load even though it was rated at 12,000 lbs. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Cliff >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIrQeMmIHs >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 19:17:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 19:17:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM In-Reply-To: <39f39.888d26a.460e44f4@aol.com> References: <39f39.888d26a.460e44f4@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi guys, just a quick update. I received the LED drivers and just spent an hour or so playing with them. Everything worked like a charm so tomorrow they go into Shackleton. I was particularly pleased because running them in air for a minute or so, both the lights and drives were still cool to the touch. I was running two 5K lights off a shared drive, which I set at 34.1V and 2.34A per the LED specs. That's 80 watts, and this is a 400 watt drive so I guess that's how one ends up with cool circuitry. This is not going to need a fan on its enclosure, just holes. My drive is a "MingHe D3806." The drives came with no instructions whatsoever but there were reasonable explanations online. Here is a video that will give you a pretty clear idea of how they are configured. The video is of another model from the same manufacturer, but the controls are identical. Mine is a combination step up / step down, which has the benefit of more input voltage flexibility but is less efficient. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_KjmF1iI9w&t=201s Best, Alec On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 7:24 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > He was referring to a Pulse Width Modulator to adjust the amount of power > going to the lights. > Jim > > In a message dated 3/29/2017 11:29:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > Alec, > > I just met a guy in California that made his own underwater housing and > LED lighting system for doing video and he is using an LED board that is > about 3" square. He has built a PWM for it so he can dim it down and says > it's a 10,000 luman 100 watt system that runs on 32 volts. > I don't know what a PWM is but he said that I didn't necessarily have to > have one. I can step my thruster motor supply down from 36V but one of my > concerns is how to get rid of the heat. He didn't seem to be too > forthcoming with the system he built. I think the LED array was something > like $15 each on Amazon. How are you controlling the heat in your housings > and do you think I would need a PWM for my lite? > > Rick > > > > On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> My lights are done, I put them on Shackleton earlier today and they are >> wired through the hull with penetrators. However, the wires end inside the >> hull because I'm waiting for the drives to arrive, which will be installed >> inside the sub. I was able to test them with a lab type power supply on a >> table top, and must say these Bridgelux leds are like a little sun in a >> can, I love them. These two lights I made are 5K lumens, and I already have >> 10K lumen Bridgeluxes which I bought by mistake. So I'll test these, and >> probably make another set with those more powerful ones. If I do, the 10Ks >> will be the forward lights and the 5Ks will be oriented out to the sides >> for "peripheral vision". A dimmable driver is sounding like a good idea, or >> maybe just sunglasses! >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:10 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Hank, >>> Alec has been making good progress with Cliff's light. >>> Last I heard 2 housings were being anodised. >>> Any update Cliff / Alec ? >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 30/03/2017, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> You will be our go to guy for lighting! >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:15 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Still building lights Hank, >>> have built a couple of housings but are doing a third revision & >>> hopefully this one will be perfect. I am pretty happy with how it's >>> going. >>> Am getting a different LED driver made up with PWM dimming. >>> Got off the motor project temporarily as my brother wanted one of >>> the lights for his boat. ? >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 30/03/2017, at 12:35 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> Are you back to work on your motor? or are you still building lights? >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:44 PM, hank pronk via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Thanks' Greg >>> >>> Alan, my answer is who cares if some water gets between the seals. The >>> important part is to keep the oil inside the motor. When the motor starts >>> up at the surface, there is significant centrical force that pushes the oil >>> out with the seal in its original orientation. I should actually remove >>> one of the seals and just have one seal holding oil in, just like a >>> submersible well pump has. Those pumps are VERY reliable. Now having said >>> all this, I could be wrong ;-) Stay tuned for test results. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:31 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> How are you doing that Hank? >>> Are you compensating the gap between the two seals? >>> Otherwise you are in the same situation as the Minn kota motors >>> where one of the two seals will fail when you go beyond it's depth >>> rating. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 30/03/2017, at 10:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg, >>> Good points, but I personally am not ready to give up on oil filling. I >>> have reversed one of the two seals in my new motors for Elementary. One >>> seal keeps the oil in and one seal keeps the water out. I am confident >>> this in addition to the compensation system will make for a clean leak >>> proof set up. The ice is off the lake by my house, so my test lake should >>> be open in a week or so. I will know then if my idea works. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:03 AM, james cottrell via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> I have to say, I no longer think that WD40 is the best for compensating >>> things underwater. Over time it causes plastics and rubber to harden and >>> become brittle. >>> Silicone oil is better but the other problem with oil compensation in >>> general is that the smallest drop/leak makes a very visible oil slick >>> around your sub (not good). Most guys are using trolling motors and they're >>> not really tight enough to hold thin oil without leaks. >>> Back in the 90s I was using air compensation- and it actually worked >>> really well. As far as I know, Karl Stanley has also been using air >>> compensation for a long time without problems. >>> It's a clean system that's not hard to set up and a small bottle of air >>> lasts for many dives. >>> >>> Greg C >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 28, 2017 12:55 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>> >>> On a brushless motor it will maybe work with mineral oil. >>> On motors with brushes I have bad expierence with that. >>> Mineral oil is a big problem in a lake if a motor is even a little >>> untight. >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>> Datum: 2017-03-28T17:15:59+0200 >>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Carsten, >>> I did a small test trying to light the WD40 on >>> fire. It's not as flammable as I thought it would be. I think they have >>> improved it's non-flammability with new formulation. It's still somewhat >>> flammable however. >>> I will be using a light mineral oil in my motors. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:22:02 +0200 (MEST) >>> >>> Heat Vapor is may a problem with WD40. >>> May ensure that the compensating back is big to handle that.. >>> We change to silicon oil for that reason. >>> >>> vbr Carsten >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>> Datum: 2017-03-28T04:56:46+0200 >>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> An: "PSubs" >>> >>> >>> >>> I just ran one of my motors filled with the WD40. It seemed to be very >>> happy. I mainly just did it to clean the carbon build up out of the >>> motor. I was surprised how sealed the motor was, it is open at one end >>> where it mates to the gear box. I was able to fill it up without it >>> leaking out anywhere. That could be an issue later when I want the mineral >>> oil to fill all the voids. I might need to actually drill some holes to >>> get some circulation . >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> ? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 19:47:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 19:47:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM In-Reply-To: References: <39f39.888d26a.460e44f4@aol.com> Message-ID: <720af225-1935-d028-e869-9bf9f340b93b@psubs.org> This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fii6G_ewdw On 4/6/2017 7:17 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi guys, just a quick update. I received the LED drivers and just > spent an hour or so playing with them. Everything worked like a charm > so tomorrow they go into Shackleton. I was particularly pleased > because running them in air for a minute or so, both the lights and > drives were still cool to the touch. I was running two 5K lights off a > shared drive, which I set at 34.1V and 2.34A per the LED specs. That's > 80 watts, and this is a 400 watt drive so I guess that's how one ends > up with cool circuitry. This is not going to need a fan on its > enclosure, just holes. My drive is a "MingHe D3806." > > The drives came with no instructions whatsoever but there were > reasonable explanations online. Here is a video that will give you a > pretty clear idea of how they are configured. The video is of another > model from the same manufacturer, but the controls are identical. Mine > is a combination step up / step down, which has the benefit of more > input voltage flexibility but is less efficient. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_KjmF1iI9w&t=201s > > > > Best, > > Alec > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 20:06:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 12:06:22 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM In-Reply-To: References: <39f39.888d26a.460e44f4@aol.com> Message-ID: <22CB9864-059A-4ED5-B6FB-1C20B71E5417@yahoo.com> Glad it is going well Alec. I have a couple of the units shown in the video. Have watched a few of Julians videos, he is really good. Here is one specifically on your model if you haven't seen it already. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-fii6G_ewdw That is typical getting it with no instructions! I am having a bad run with my light. Was just about there with it, then measured the heat coming off the front of the LED from 10mm away. At 76W I was getting to 270F (132C) after 10 seconds. These lights are touted as being cool out front. I don't want to send my acrylic lens to forming temperature & have it extrude at pressure. Am awaiting a reply about this from the manufacturer. Meanwhile I have put on hold the PWM driver I was having designed for me. Just now I managed to destroy another driver & I am not sure how. I have a 48V bench top power supply with a resistor to stop inrush current, but I think I have still destroyed the input capacitor. I was told not to switch the LED off from the output lead (which I had been doing) as it could be bad for the constant current circuit. So had been switching on & off my power supply. I saw Cliff's light on one of his Youtube videos & it looked pretty impressive. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 7/04/2017, at 11:17 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi guys, just a quick update. I received the LED drivers and just spent an hour or so playing with them. Everything worked like a charm so tomorrow they go into Shackleton. I was particularly pleased because running them in air for a minute or so, both the lights and drives were still cool to the touch. I was running two 5K lights off a shared drive, which I set at 34.1V and 2.34A per the LED specs. That's 80 watts, and this is a 400 watt drive so I guess that's how one ends up with cool circuitry. This is not going to need a fan on its enclosure, just holes. My drive is a "MingHe D3806." > > The drives came with no instructions whatsoever but there were reasonable explanations online. Here is a video that will give you a pretty clear idea of how they are configured. The video is of another model from the same manufacturer, but the controls are identical. Mine is a combination step up / step down, which has the benefit of more input voltage flexibility but is less efficient. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_KjmF1iI9w&t=201s > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > >> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 7:24 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Rick, >> He was referring to a Pulse Width Modulator to adjust the amount of power going to the lights. >> Jim >> >> In a message dated 3/29/2017 11:29:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> Alec, >> >> I just met a guy in California that made his own underwater housing and LED lighting system for doing video and he is using an LED board that is about 3" square. He has built a PWM for it so he can dim it down and says it's a 10,000 luman 100 watt system that runs on 32 volts. >> I don't know what a PWM is but he said that I didn't necessarily have to have one. I can step my thruster motor supply down from 36V but one of my concerns is how to get rid of the heat. He didn't seem to be too forthcoming with the system he built. I think the LED array was something like $15 each on Amazon. How are you controlling the heat in your housings and do you think I would need a PWM for my lite? >> >> Rick >> >> >> >>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> My lights are done, I put them on Shackleton earlier today and they are wired through the hull with penetrators. However, the wires end inside the hull because I'm waiting for the drives to arrive, which will be installed inside the sub. I was able to test them with a lab type power supply on a table top, and must say these Bridgelux leds are like a little sun in a can, I love them. These two lights I made are 5K lumens, and I already have 10K lumen Bridgeluxes which I bought by mistake. So I'll test these, and probably make another set with those more powerful ones. If I do, the 10Ks will be the forward lights and the 5Ks will be oriented out to the sides for "peripheral vision". A dimmable driver is sounding like a good idea, or maybe just sunglasses! >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:10 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Thanks Hank, >>>> Alec has been making good progress with Cliff's light. >>>> Last I heard 2 housings were being anodised. >>>> Any update Cliff / Alec ? >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> You will be our go to guy for lighting! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:15 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Still building lights Hank, >>>>> have built a couple of housings but are doing a third revision & >>>>> hopefully this one will be perfect. I am pretty happy with how it's going. >>>>> Am getting a different LED driver made up with PWM dimming. >>>>> Got off the motor project temporarily as my brother wanted one of >>>>> the lights for his boat. ? >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 12:35 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Alan, >>>>>> Are you back to work on your motor? or are you still building lights? >>>>>> Hank >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:44 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks' Greg >>>>>> >>>>>> Alan, my answer is who cares if some water gets between the seals. The important part is to keep the oil inside the motor. When the motor starts up at the surface, there is significant centrical force that pushes the oil out with the seal in its original orientation. I should actually remove one of the seals and just have one seal holding oil in, just like a submersible well pump has. Those pumps are VERY reliable. Now having said all this, I could be wrong ;-) Stay tuned for test results. >>>>>> Hank >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:31 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> How are you doing that Hank? >>>>>> Are you compensating the gap between the two seals? >>>>>> Otherwise you are in the same situation as the Minn kota motors >>>>>> where one of the two seals will fail when you go beyond it's depth >>>>>> rating. >>>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 10:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg, >>>>>>> Good points, but I personally am not ready to give up on oil filling. I have reversed one of the two seals in my new motors for Elementary. One seal keeps the oil in and one seal keeps the water out. I am confident this in addition to the compensation system will make for a clean leak proof set up. The ice is off the lake by my house, so my test lake should be open in a week or so. I will know then if my idea works. >>>>>>> Hank >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:03 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have to say, I no longer think that WD40 is the best for compensating things underwater. Over time it causes plastics and rubber to harden and become brittle. >>>>>>> Silicone oil is better but the other problem with oil compensation in general is that the smallest drop/leak makes a very visible oil slick around your sub (not good). Most guys are using trolling motors and they're not really tight enough to hold thin oil without leaks. >>>>>>> Back in the 90s I was using air compensation- and it actually worked really well. As far as I know, Karl Stanley has also been using air compensation for a long time without problems. >>>>>>> It's a clean system that's not hard to set up and a small bottle of air lasts for many dives. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg C >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 12:55 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>> >>>>> On a brushless motor it will maybe work with mineral oil. >>>>> On motors with brushes I have bad expierence with that. >>>>> Mineral oil is a big problem in a lake if a motor is even a little untight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>> Datum: 2017-03-28T17:15:59+0200 >>>>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Carsten, >>>>> I did a small test trying to light the WD40 on fire. It's not as flammable as I thought it would be. I think they have improved it's non-flammability with new formulation. It's still somewhat flammable however. >>>>> I will be using a light mineral oil in my motors. >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:22:02 +0200 (MEST) >>>>> >>>>> Heat Vapor is may a problem with WD40. >>>>> May ensure that the compensating back is big to handle that.. >>>>> We change to silicon oil for that reason. >>>>> >>>>> vbr Carsten >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>>> Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>> Datum: 2017-03-28T04:56:46+0200 >>>>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>> An: "PSubs" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I just ran one of my motors filled with the WD40. It seemed to be very happy. I mainly just did it to clean the carbon build up out of the motor. I was surprised how sealed the motor was, it is open at one end where it mates to the gear box. I was able to fill it up without it leaking out anywhere. That could be an issue later when I want the mineral oil to fill all the voids. I might need to actually drill some holes to get some circulation . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> ? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 20:16:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 20:16:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM In-Reply-To: <720af225-1935-d028-e869-9bf9f340b93b@psubs.org> References: <39f39.888d26a.460e44f4@aol.com> <720af225-1935-d028-e869-9bf9f340b93b@psubs.org> Message-ID: Yes, that's the one. I'd seen that video, but thought it was too much for most. At least it was too much information for me! Alec On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 7:47 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > This one? > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fii6G_ewdw > > > > On 4/6/2017 7:17 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Hi guys, just a quick update. I received the LED drivers and just spent >> an hour or so playing with them. Everything worked like a charm so tomorrow >> they go into Shackleton. I was particularly pleased because running them in >> air for a minute or so, both the lights and drives were still cool to the >> touch. I was running two 5K lights off a shared drive, which I set at 34.1V >> and 2.34A per the LED specs. That's 80 watts, and this is a 400 watt drive >> so I guess that's how one ends up with cool circuitry. This is not going to >> need a fan on its enclosure, just holes. My drive is a "MingHe D3806." >> >> The drives came with no instructions whatsoever but there were reasonable >> explanations online. Here is a video that will give you a pretty clear idea >> of how they are configured. The video is of another model from the same >> manufacturer, but the controls are identical. Mine is a combination step up >> / step down, which has the benefit of more input voltage flexibility but is >> less efficient. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_KjmF1iI9w&t=201s >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 20:23:13 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 20:23:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM In-Reply-To: <22CB9864-059A-4ED5-B6FB-1C20B71E5417@yahoo.com> References: <39f39.888d26a.460e44f4@aol.com> <22CB9864-059A-4ED5-B6FB-1C20B71E5417@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ugh! I think Cliff's design has pretty good heat dissipation. The only problem I did have is that one of the lights showed up with a cracked lens, and that was before I turned it on for the first time. I did a show and tell with the sub yesterday at a university and left the sub parked outside for some hours in the sun. Maybe the black light body expanded in the sun, I'm not sure. Anyway, I'll put another lens in and tighten it a bit less, and if it happens again I suppose I'll have to slightly enlarge the cavity. Looking to test Shackleton next Thursday in a quarry... fingers crossed. Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 8:06 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Glad it is going well Alec. > I have a couple of the units shown in the video. > Have watched a few of Julians videos, he is really good. > Here is one specifically on your model if you haven't seen it already. > https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-fii6G_ewdw > That is typical getting it with no instructions! > I am having a bad run with my light. Was just about there with it, then > measured the heat coming off the front of the LED from 10mm away. > At 76W I was getting to 270F (132C) after 10 seconds. These lights are > touted as being cool out front. I don't want to send my acrylic lens to > forming temperature & have it extrude at pressure. Am awaiting a > reply about this from the manufacturer. Meanwhile I have put on hold > the PWM driver I was having designed for me. > Just now I managed to destroy another driver & I am not sure how. > I have a 48V bench top power supply with a resistor to stop inrush current, > but I think I have still destroyed the input capacitor. > I was told not to switch the LED off from the output lead (which I had > been doing) > as it could be bad for the constant current circuit. So had been switching > on & off my power supply. > I saw Cliff's light on one of his Youtube videos & it looked pretty > impressive. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 7/04/2017, at 11:17 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi guys, just a quick update. I received the LED drivers and just spent an > hour or so playing with them. Everything worked like a charm so tomorrow > they go into Shackleton. I was particularly pleased because running them in > air for a minute or so, both the lights and drives were still cool to the > touch. I was running two 5K lights off a shared drive, which I set at 34.1V > and 2.34A per the LED specs. That's 80 watts, and this is a 400 watt drive > so I guess that's how one ends up with cool circuitry. This is not going to > need a fan on its enclosure, just holes. My drive is a "MingHe D3806." > > The drives came with no instructions whatsoever but there were reasonable > explanations online. Here is a video that will give you a pretty clear idea > of how they are configured. The video is of another model from the same > manufacturer, but the controls are identical. Mine is a combination step up > / step down, which has the benefit of more input voltage flexibility but is > less efficient. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_KjmF1iI9w&t=201s > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 7:24 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Rick, >> He was referring to a Pulse Width Modulator to adjust the amount of power >> going to the lights. >> Jim >> >> In a message dated 3/29/2017 11:29:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> Alec, >> >> I just met a guy in California that made his own underwater housing and >> LED lighting system for doing video and he is using an LED board that is >> about 3" square. He has built a PWM for it so he can dim it down and says >> it's a 10,000 luman 100 watt system that runs on 32 volts. >> I don't know what a PWM is but he said that I didn't necessarily have to >> have one. I can step my thruster motor supply down from 36V but one of my >> concerns is how to get rid of the heat. He didn't seem to be too >> forthcoming with the system he built. I think the LED array was something >> like $15 each on Amazon. How are you controlling the heat in your housings >> and do you think I would need a PWM for my lite? >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> My lights are done, I put them on Shackleton earlier today and they are >>> wired through the hull with penetrators. However, the wires end inside the >>> hull because I'm waiting for the drives to arrive, which will be installed >>> inside the sub. I was able to test them with a lab type power supply on a >>> table top, and must say these Bridgelux leds are like a little sun in a >>> can, I love them. These two lights I made are 5K lumens, and I already have >>> 10K lumen Bridgeluxes which I bought by mistake. So I'll test these, and >>> probably make another set with those more powerful ones. If I do, the 10Ks >>> will be the forward lights and the 5Ks will be oriented out to the sides >>> for "peripheral vision". A dimmable driver is sounding like a good idea, or >>> maybe just sunglasses! >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:10 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks Hank, >>>> Alec has been making good progress with Cliff's light. >>>> Last I heard 2 housings were being anodised. >>>> Any update Cliff / Alec ? >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On 30/03/2017, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> You will be our go to guy for lighting! >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:15 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Still building lights Hank, >>>> have built a couple of housings but are doing a third revision & >>>> hopefully this one will be perfect. I am pretty happy with how it's >>>> going. >>>> Am getting a different LED driver made up with PWM dimming. >>>> Got off the motor project temporarily as my brother wanted one of >>>> the lights for his boat. ? >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On 30/03/2017, at 12:35 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Alan, >>>> Are you back to work on your motor? or are you still building lights? >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:44 PM, hank pronk via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks' Greg >>>> >>>> Alan, my answer is who cares if some water gets between the seals. The >>>> important part is to keep the oil inside the motor. When the motor starts >>>> up at the surface, there is significant centrical force that pushes the oil >>>> out with the seal in its original orientation. I should actually remove >>>> one of the seals and just have one seal holding oil in, just like a >>>> submersible well pump has. Those pumps are VERY reliable. Now having said >>>> all this, I could be wrong ;-) Stay tuned for test results. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:31 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> How are you doing that Hank? >>>> Are you compensating the gap between the two seals? >>>> Otherwise you are in the same situation as the Minn kota motors >>>> where one of the two seals will fail when you go beyond it's depth >>>> rating. >>>> Cheers Alan >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On 30/03/2017, at 10:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg, >>>> Good points, but I personally am not ready to give up on oil filling. >>>> I have reversed one of the two seals in my new motors for Elementary. One >>>> seal keeps the oil in and one seal keeps the water out. I am confident >>>> this in addition to the compensation system will make for a clean leak >>>> proof set up. The ice is off the lake by my house, so my test lake should >>>> be open in a week or so. I will know then if my idea works. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:03 AM, james cottrell via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I have to say, I no longer think that WD40 is the best for compensating >>>> things underwater. Over time it causes plastics and rubber to harden and >>>> become brittle. >>>> Silicone oil is better but the other problem with oil compensation in >>>> general is that the smallest drop/leak makes a very visible oil slick >>>> around your sub (not good). Most guys are using trolling motors and they're >>>> not really tight enough to hold thin oil without leaks. >>>> Back in the 90s I was using air compensation- and it actually worked >>>> really well. As far as I know, Karl Stanley has also been using air >>>> compensation for a long time without problems. >>>> It's a clean system that's not hard to set up and a small bottle of air >>>> lasts for many dives. >>>> >>>> Greg C >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 28, 2017 12:55 PM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>> >>>> On a brushless motor it will maybe work with mineral oil. >>>> On motors with brushes I have bad expierence with that. >>>> Mineral oil is a big problem in a lake if a motor is even a little >>>> untight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>> Datum: 2017-03-28T17:15:59+0200 >>>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Carsten, >>>> I did a small test trying to light the WD40 on >>>> fire. It's not as flammable as I thought it would be. I think they have >>>> improved it's non-flammability with new formulation. It's still somewhat >>>> flammable however. >>>> I will be using a light mineral oil in my motors. >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:22:02 +0200 (MEST) >>>> >>>> Heat Vapor is may a problem with WD40. >>>> May ensure that the compensating back is big to handle that.. >>>> We change to silicon oil for that reason. >>>> >>>> vbr Carsten >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>> Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>> Datum: 2017-03-28T04:56:46+0200 >>>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> An: "PSubs" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I just ran one of my motors filled with the WD40. It seemed to be very >>>> happy. I mainly just did it to clean the carbon build up out of the >>>> motor. I was surprised how sealed the motor was, it is open at one end >>>> where it mates to the gear box. I was able to fill it up without it >>>> leaking out anywhere. That could be an issue later when I want the mineral >>>> oil to fill all the voids. I might need to actually drill some holes to >>>> get some circulation . >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> ? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 6 21:11:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 13:11:06 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM In-Reply-To: References: <39f39.888d26a.460e44f4@aol.com> <22CB9864-059A-4ED5-B6FB-1C20B71E5417@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <022634F9-3A48-4D3B-B76D-838DEB0ECD5F@yahoo.com> Alec, I would have thought the housing would have expanded away from the lens. Unless it expanded against the bolts & tightened the top plate down on to the glass. If that was the case maybe the lense is a fraction too high ( or it's seat isn't low enough). Maybe a stone from a car? Alan Sent from my iPad > On 7/04/2017, at 12:23 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Ugh! I think Cliff's design has pretty good heat dissipation. The only problem I did have is that one of the lights showed up with a cracked lens, and that was before I turned it on for the first time. I did a show and tell with the sub yesterday at a university and left the sub parked outside for some hours in the sun. Maybe the black light body expanded in the sun, I'm not sure. Anyway, I'll put another lens in and tighten it a bit less, and if it happens again I suppose I'll have to slightly enlarge the cavity. > > Looking to test Shackleton next Thursday in a quarry... fingers crossed. > > > Best, > > Alec > >> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 8:06 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Glad it is going well Alec. >> I have a couple of the units shown in the video. >> Have watched a few of Julians videos, he is really good. >> Here is one specifically on your model if you haven't seen it already. >> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-fii6G_ewdw >> That is typical getting it with no instructions! >> I am having a bad run with my light. Was just about there with it, then >> measured the heat coming off the front of the LED from 10mm away. >> At 76W I was getting to 270F (132C) after 10 seconds. These lights are >> touted as being cool out front. I don't want to send my acrylic lens to >> forming temperature & have it extrude at pressure. Am awaiting a >> reply about this from the manufacturer. Meanwhile I have put on hold >> the PWM driver I was having designed for me. >> Just now I managed to destroy another driver & I am not sure how. >> I have a 48V bench top power supply with a resistor to stop inrush current, >> but I think I have still destroyed the input capacitor. >> I was told not to switch the LED off from the output lead (which I had been doing) >> as it could be bad for the constant current circuit. So had been switching >> on & off my power supply. >> I saw Cliff's light on one of his Youtube videos & it looked pretty impressive. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 7/04/2017, at 11:17 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi guys, just a quick update. I received the LED drivers and just spent an hour or so playing with them. Everything worked like a charm so tomorrow they go into Shackleton. I was particularly pleased because running them in air for a minute or so, both the lights and drives were still cool to the touch. I was running two 5K lights off a shared drive, which I set at 34.1V and 2.34A per the LED specs. That's 80 watts, and this is a 400 watt drive so I guess that's how one ends up with cool circuitry. This is not going to need a fan on its enclosure, just holes. My drive is a "MingHe D3806." >>> >>> The drives came with no instructions whatsoever but there were reasonable explanations online. Here is a video that will give you a pretty clear idea of how they are configured. The video is of another model from the same manufacturer, but the controls are identical. Mine is a combination step up / step down, which has the benefit of more input voltage flexibility but is less efficient. >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_KjmF1iI9w&t=201s >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 7:24 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Rick, >>>> He was referring to a Pulse Width Modulator to adjust the amount of power going to the lights. >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> In a message dated 3/29/2017 11:29:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >>>> Alec, >>>> >>>> I just met a guy in California that made his own underwater housing and LED lighting system for doing video and he is using an LED board that is about 3" square. He has built a PWM for it so he can dim it down and says it's a 10,000 luman 100 watt system that runs on 32 volts. >>>> I don't know what a PWM is but he said that I didn't necessarily have to have one. I can step my thruster motor supply down from 36V but one of my concerns is how to get rid of the heat. He didn't seem to be too forthcoming with the system he built. I think the LED array was something like $15 each on Amazon. How are you controlling the heat in your housings and do you think I would need a PWM for my lite? >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> My lights are done, I put them on Shackleton earlier today and they are wired through the hull with penetrators. However, the wires end inside the hull because I'm waiting for the drives to arrive, which will be installed inside the sub. I was able to test them with a lab type power supply on a table top, and must say these Bridgelux leds are like a little sun in a can, I love them. These two lights I made are 5K lumens, and I already have 10K lumen Bridgeluxes which I bought by mistake. So I'll test these, and probably make another set with those more powerful ones. If I do, the 10Ks will be the forward lights and the 5Ks will be oriented out to the sides for "peripheral vision". A dimmable driver is sounding like a good idea, or maybe just sunglasses! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:10 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> Thanks Hank, >>>>>> Alec has been making good progress with Cliff's light. >>>>>> Last I heard 2 housings were being anodised. >>>>>> Any update Cliff / Alec ? >>>>>> Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You will be our go to guy for lighting! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:15 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Still building lights Hank, >>>>>>> have built a couple of housings but are doing a third revision & >>>>>>> hopefully this one will be perfect. I am pretty happy with how it's going. >>>>>>> Am getting a different LED driver made up with PWM dimming. >>>>>>> Got off the motor project temporarily as my brother wanted one of >>>>>>> the lights for his boat. ? >>>>>>> Alan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 12:35 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alan, >>>>>>>> Are you back to work on your motor? or are you still building lights? >>>>>>>> Hank >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:44 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks' Greg >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alan, my answer is who cares if some water gets between the seals. The important part is to keep the oil inside the motor. When the motor starts up at the surface, there is significant centrical force that pushes the oil out with the seal in its original orientation. I should actually remove one of the seals and just have one seal holding oil in, just like a submersible well pump has. Those pumps are VERY reliable. Now having said all this, I could be wrong ;-) Stay tuned for test results. >>>>>>>> Hank >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 4:31 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How are you doing that Hank? >>>>>>>> Are you compensating the gap between the two seals? >>>>>>>> Otherwise you are in the same situation as the Minn kota motors >>>>>>>> where one of the two seals will fail when you go beyond it's depth >>>>>>>> rating. >>>>>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 30/03/2017, at 10:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Greg, >>>>>>>>> Good points, but I personally am not ready to give up on oil filling. I have reversed one of the two seals in my new motors for Elementary. One seal keeps the oil in and one seal keeps the water out. I am confident this in addition to the compensation system will make for a clean leak proof set up. The ice is off the lake by my house, so my test lake should be open in a week or so. I will know then if my idea works. >>>>>>>>> Hank >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:03 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have to say, I no longer think that WD40 is the best for compensating things underwater. Over time it causes plastics and rubber to harden and become brittle. >>>>>>>>> Silicone oil is better but the other problem with oil compensation in general is that the smallest drop/leak makes a very visible oil slick around your sub (not good). Most guys are using trolling motors and they're not really tight enough to hold thin oil without leaks. >>>>>>>>> Back in the 90s I was using air compensation- and it actually worked really well. As far as I know, Karl Stanley has also been using air compensation for a long time without problems. >>>>>>>>> It's a clean system that's not hard to set up and a small bottle of air lasts for many dives. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Greg C >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>>>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 12:55 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On a brushless motor it will maybe work with mineral oil. >>>>>>> On motors with brushes I have bad expierence with that. >>>>>>> Mineral oil is a big problem in a lake if a motor is even a little untight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>>>>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>>> Datum: 2017-03-28T17:15:59+0200 >>>>>>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>>>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Carsten, >>>>>>> I did a small test trying to light the WD40 on fire. It's not as flammable as I thought it would be. I think they have improved it's non-flammability with new formulation. It's still somewhat flammable however. >>>>>>> I will be using a light mineral oil in my motors. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>>> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:22:02 +0200 (MEST) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Heat Vapor is may a problem with WD40. >>>>>>> May ensure that the compensating back is big to handle that.. >>>>>>> We change to silicon oil for that reason. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> vbr Carsten >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>>>>> Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] WD - 40 >>>>>>> Datum: 2017-03-28T04:56:46+0200 >>>>>>> Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>>>> An: "PSubs" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I just ran one of my motors filled with the WD40. It seemed to be very happy. I mainly just did it to clean the carbon build up out of the motor. I was surprised how sealed the motor was, it is open at one end where it mates to the gear box. I was able to fill it up without it leaking out anywhere. That could be an issue later when I want the mineral oil to fill all the voids. I might need to actually drill some holes to get some circulation . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> ? >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 8 14:48:35 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 11:48:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Message-ID: <20170408114835.341BE47A@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pod1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 82892 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pod2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 80344 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pod3.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 71058 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Pod5.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 72084 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 8 15:14:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 19:14:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod In-Reply-To: <20170408114835.341BE47A@m0087796.ppops.net> References: <20170408114835.341BE47A@m0087796.ppops.net> Message-ID: <47535907.3946529.1491678892373@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I think you will have a very smooth and reliable motor there. ?I can see why they are tough to machine. ?I found the trick is to use your 4 jaw chuck and weld tabs to the pod heads for the chuck to grab. ?Then grind the tabs off after your done.Hank On Saturday, April 8, 2017 12:48 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Everybody,??????????????????????????? I finished my Port side motor pod.? Did a pressure test up to 10psi?,? still waiting on the silicone oil?.? But it ran really smooth, had a bit of trouble when I machined the end caps, they weren't totally perfect, think I'll have the machine shop make a stab at it .? There were difficult to line up in my lathe and they were literally at the very maximum size?my lathe could do.? But all my snap rings and o rings and epoxy thru hulls are good to go !?Pics:_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 8 15:57:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 07:57:02 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod In-Reply-To: <20170408114835.341BE47A@m0087796.ppops.net> References: <20170408114835.341BE47A@m0087796.ppops.net> Message-ID: Well done Brian. I am just wondering about the orientation. You say it is the port thruster. Are you driving the boat with the occupant sphere at the rear? Also the vectoring of them, Is that permanent or just for the photo? While I'm at it, what sort of horsepower are they. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/04/2017, at 6:48 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Everybody, > I finished my Port side motor pod. Did a pressure test up to 10psi , still waiting on the silicone oil . But it ran really smooth, had a bit of trouble when I machined the end caps, they weren't totally perfect, think I'll have the machine shop make a stab at it . There were difficult to line up in my lathe and they were literally at the very maximum size my lathe could do. But all my snap rings and o rings and epoxy thru hulls are good to go ! > > Pics: > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 8 16:06:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 08:06:06 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod In-Reply-To: <20170408114835.341BE47A@m0087796.ppops.net> References: <20170408114835.341BE47A@m0087796.ppops.net> Message-ID: <879F7C30-0AA2-4D49-82EE-C011F3347554@yahoo.com> Brian, I can't see a split pin in front of the propeller nut! May be just hard to view, but I remember Alec lost a prop, I think while reversing. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/04/2017, at 6:48 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Everybody, > I finished my Port side motor pod. Did a pressure test up to 10psi , still waiting on the silicone oil . But it ran really smooth, had a bit of trouble when I machined the end caps, they weren't totally perfect, think I'll have the machine shop make a stab at it . There were difficult to line up in my lathe and they were literally at the very maximum size my lathe could do. But all my snap rings and o rings and epoxy thru hulls are good to go ! > > Pics: > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 8 16:37:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:37:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Message-ID: <20170408133712.33FD6E01@m0087797.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 8 16:41:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:41:53 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Message-ID: <20170408134153.33FD6E65@m0087797.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 8 17:00:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 21:00:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod In-Reply-To: <20170408133712.33FD6E01@m0087797.ppops.net> References: <20170408133712.33FD6E01@m0087797.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1073002428.3940901.1491685208058@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Ya, that won't work with a three jaw chuck, it takes me up to two hr to get Elementary's hatch in the lathe exactly in the right spot. ?I had to change the angle of the seat a couple of times to get it perfect and did not want to mess with the o-ring groove. ?Patience is key and some more experience would be nice. ?Hank On Saturday, April 8, 2017 2:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? Ya? I did weld a smaller diameter pipe on to the end cap, but with my 3 jaw chuck I couldn't get it exactly centered.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 19:14:52 +0000 (UTC) Brian,I think you will have a very smooth and reliable motor there. ?I can see why they are tough to machine. ?I found the trick is to use your 4 jaw chuck and weld tabs to the pod heads for the chuck to grab. ?Then grind the tabs off after your done.Hank On Saturday, April 8, 2017 12:48 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Everybody,??????????????????????????? I finished my Port side motor pod.? Did a pressure test up to 10psi?,? still waiting on the silicone oil?.? But it ran really smooth, had a bit of trouble when I machined the end caps, they weren't totally perfect, think I'll have the machine shop make a stab at it .? There were difficult to line up in my lathe and they were literally at the very maximum size?my lathe could do.? But all my snap rings and o rings and epoxy thru hulls are good to go !?Pics:_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 8 18:00:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 15:00:39 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Message-ID: <20170408150039.34078703@m0086238.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 8 20:31:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 00:31:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod In-Reply-To: <20170408150039.34078703@m0086238.ppops.net> References: <20170408150039.34078703@m0086238.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2075006747.4110539.1491697907235@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,How close are you to a working sub? ?Hank On Saturday, April 8, 2017 4:00 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, ????????????? Good eye Alan,? the shop forgot to put the cotter pin hole in the shaft !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 08:06:06 +1200 Brian,I can't see a split pin in front of the propeller nut!May be just hard to view, but I remember Alec lost a?prop, I think while reversing.Alan Sent from my iPad On 9/04/2017, at 6:48 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Everybody,??????????????????????????? I finished my Port side motor pod.? Did a pressure test up to 10psi?,? still waiting on the silicone oil?.? But it ran really smooth, had a bit of trouble when I machined the end caps, they weren't totally perfect, think I'll have the machine shop make a stab at it .? There were difficult to line up in my lathe and they were literally at the very maximum size?my lathe could do.? But all my snap rings and o rings and epoxy thru hulls are good to go !?Pics: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 8 22:15:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 14:15:17 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod In-Reply-To: <20170408134153.33FD6E65@m0087797.ppops.net> References: <20170408134153.33FD6E65@m0087797.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian, you have me puzzled; I know you are a diver, so you realise that a lot of the time your visibility will be no better than the length of your sub. If the sphere is aft you will hit things before you see them. If you are aft on the surface & change to fore under the water I would just be aware of whether your bearing set up is designed to take axial pressure in both directions the same. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/04/2017, at 8:41 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, The pods will turn, I have it in various positions in different pictures. They basically hang from that top disk and then they will both turn using a cable control. The motors are only three HP, but I believe I can upgrade to 8 HP . Yes, the sphere is aft. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod > Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 07:57:02 +1200 > > Well done Brian. > I am just wondering about the orientation. > You say it is the port thruster. Are you driving the boat with the occupant sphere > at the rear? Also the vectoring of them, Is that permanent or just for the photo? > While I'm at it, what sort of horsepower are they. > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 9/04/2017, at 6:48 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Everybody, > I finished my Port side motor pod. Did a pressure test up to 10psi , still waiting on the silicone oil . But it ran really smooth, had a bit of trouble when I machined the end caps, they weren't totally perfect, think I'll have the machine shop make a stab at it . There were difficult to line up in my lathe and they were literally at the very maximum size my lathe could do. But all my snap rings and o rings and epoxy thru hulls are good to go ! > > Pics: > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 9 11:35:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 15:35:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign References: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I made a BooBoo when I designed Elementary 3000. ?I did not spend enough time mocking up the port position for comfort. ?With the current port location in relation to the hatch, it is uncomfortable. ?If I raise the port 10 inches by rotating the sphere it is comfortable. ?I can lean forward easily and look out the port in this position. ?This means my hatch would be ?off level ?at the surface. ?Does this matter? ?it is better for staying open I guess. ?The back of the land will be 3.5 inches lower than the front. ?I am building a new body for the sphere to sit in-it will look more like a Square plastic ROV now than a submarine. ?I got the idea at Nuytco and actually commented to Phil that ?you could drop a sphere into the centre of their ROV and you would have a great sub. ??My plan is to have two MBT's, one for and one aft inside the plastic panel enclosure. ?If I make the aft MBT larger in volume, the sub will float at the surface with the hatch level to the water. ?When I sink the sub it will be off level with the pilot sitting level with the port where it needs to be. ?I am using plastic dock floats for MBT's.That should work?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 9 17:43:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:43:33 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign In-Reply-To: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> References: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, this Seamagine Aurora 3 has a "tail up" position on the surface for boarding. (scroll down) http://www.seamagine.com/personal-submarine-3-person.html I guess any orientation is acceptable if it works. Just tell people it was a design innovation rather than a mistake. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/04/2017, at 3:35 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > I made a BooBoo when I designed Elementary 3000. I did not spend enough time mocking up the port position for comfort. With the current port location in relation to the hatch, it is uncomfortable. If I raise the port 10 inches by rotating the sphere it is comfortable. I can lean forward easily and look out the port in this position. This means my hatch would be off level at the surface. Does this matter? it is better for staying open I guess. The back of the land will be 3.5 inches lower than the front. > I am building a new body for the sphere to sit in-it will look more like a Square plastic ROV now than a submarine. I got the idea at Nuytco and actually commented to Phil that you could drop a sphere into the centre of their ROV and you would have a great sub. > My plan is to have two MBT's, one for and one aft inside the plastic panel enclosure. If I make the aft MBT larger in volume, the sub will float at the surface with the hatch level to the water. When I sink the sub it will be off level with the pilot sitting level with the port where it needs to be. I am using plastic dock floats for MBT's. > That should work > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 9 18:14:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 15:14:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Message-ID: <20170409151442.34046C26@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 9 18:20:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 15:20:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Message-ID: <20170409152048.34046DC8@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 9 18:23:44 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 15:23:44 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor Pod Message-ID: <20170409152344.34047310@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 9 18:26:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 15:26:52 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign Message-ID: <20170409152652.340471F8@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 9 18:27:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 22:27:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <594011761.4436497.1491776861755@mail.yahoo.com> New videoI just got back from the lake, this is subbing in CanadaHank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 4:26 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: MVI 0449 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG2TAuck940 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2017-04-09 at 4.25 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16154 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 9 19:04:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 23:04:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign In-Reply-To: References: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1098632930.4448340.1491779070884@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,That is great, thanks' that is exactly what I want to do. ?Hank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 3:43 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,this Seamagine Aurora 3 has a "tail up" position on the surface for boarding.(scroll down)?http://www.seamagine.com/personal-submarine-3-person.htmlI guess any orientation is acceptable if it works.Just tell people it was a design innovation rather than a mistake.Alan Sent from my iPad On 10/04/2017, at 3:35 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I made a BooBoo when I designed Elementary 3000. ?I did not spend enough time mocking up the port position for comfort. ?With the current port location in relation to the hatch, it is uncomfortable. ?If I raise the port 10 inches by rotating the sphere it is comfortable. ?I can lean forward easily and look out the port in this position. ?This means my hatch would be ?off level ?at the surface. ?Does this matter? ?it is better for staying open I guess. ?The back of the land will be 3.5 inches lower than the front. ?I am building a new body for the sphere to sit in-it will look more like a Square plastic ROV now than a submarine. ?I got the idea at Nuytco and actually commented to Phil that ?you could drop a sphere into the centre of their ROV and you would have a great sub. ??My plan is to have two MBT's, one for and one aft inside the plastic panel enclosure. ?If I make the aft MBT larger in volume, the sub will float at the surface with the hatch level to the water. ?When I sink the sub it will be off level with the pilot sitting level with the port where it needs to be. ?I am using plastic dock floats for MBT's.That should work?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 9 21:30:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 01:30:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign In-Reply-To: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> References: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <223021595.2908874.1491787812840@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Hank, If I understand your email correctly, the only problem you will have is reduced view of the bottom since your port will be higher and angled slightly up during the dive. I ran into the same thing when laying out the side viewports for my sub- the ports needed to be comfortable to look out of and still give a good view downward.?Captain Kittredge made the ports for me and made them extra heavy so they could be welded in "angled down" without losing too much strength. The view turned out to be pretty good. Just curious- how was the comfort/ view in your previous spherical sub compared to the new sub? Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 11:41 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign Hi All,I made a BooBoo when I designed Elementary 3000. ?I did not spend enough time mocking up the port position for comfort. ?With the current port location in relation to the hatch, it is uncomfortable. ?If I raise the port 10 inches by rotating the sphere it is comfortable. ?I can lean forward easily and look out the port in this position. ?This means my hatch would be ?off level ?at the surface. ?Does this matter? ?it is better for staying open I guess. ?The back of the land will be 3.5 inches lower than the front. ?I am building a new body for the sphere to sit in-it will look more like a Square plastic ROV now than a submarine. ?I got the idea at Nuytco and actually commented to Phil that ?you could drop a sphere into the centre of their ROV and you would have a great sub. ??My plan is to have two MBT's, one for and one aft inside the plastic panel enclosure. ?If I make the aft MBT larger in volume, the sub will float at the surface with the hatch level to the water. ?When I sink the sub it will be off level with the pilot sitting level with the port where it needs to be. ?I am using plastic dock floats for MBT's.That should work?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 9 22:32:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 02:32:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign In-Reply-To: <223021595.2908874.1491787812840@mail.yahoo.com> References: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> <223021595.2908874.1491787812840@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1922198385.4561369.1491791531889@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Greg,The view through the?conical port is?ridiculously good?actually. ?In the original location, I could see right in front of the sub, so I am willing to loose a bit of the view in front. ?I need to experiment more to get the perfect balance. ?My original sphere sub had a 24 in dia 4 inch thick port, so needless to say it was awesome. The comfort was very good because I could sit back without leaning ahead. ??Hank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 7:35 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, If I understand your email correctly, the only problem you will have is reduced view of the bottom since your port will be higher and angled slightly up during the dive. I ran into the same thing when laying out the side viewports for my sub- the ports needed to be comfortable to look out of and still give a good view downward.?Captain Kittredge made the ports for me and made them extra heavy so they could be welded in "angled down" without losing too much strength. The view turned out to be pretty good. Just curious- how was the comfort/ view in your previous spherical sub compared to the new sub? Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 11:41 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign Hi All,I made a BooBoo when I designed Elementary 3000. ?I did not spend enough time mocking up the port position for comfort. ?With the current port location in relation to the hatch, it is uncomfortable. ?If I raise the port 10 inches by rotating the sphere it is comfortable. ?I can lean forward easily and look out the port in this position. ?This means my hatch would be ?off level ?at the surface. ?Does this matter? ?it is better for staying open I guess. ?The back of the land will be 3.5 inches lower than the front. ?I am building a new body for the sphere to sit in-it will look more like a Square plastic ROV now than a submarine. ?I got the idea at Nuytco and actually commented to Phil that ?you could drop a sphere into the centre of their ROV and you would have a great sub. ??My plan is to have two MBT's, one for and one aft inside the plastic panel enclosure. ?If I make the aft MBT larger in volume, the sub will float at the surface with the hatch level to the water. ?When I sink the sub it will be off level with the pilot sitting level with the port where it needs to be. ?I am using plastic dock floats for MBT's.That should work?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 05:00:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:00:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign In-Reply-To: <1922198385.4561369.1491791531889@mail.yahoo.com> References: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> <223021595.2908874.1491787812840@mail.yahoo.com> <1922198385.4561369.1491791531889@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2027806541.125176.1491814814142@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,?I did learn a lesson with my port. ?I had a small scratch in the outside face, so I ?sanded it out and polished it. ?Now I have this small distortion in that spot. ?I sure doesn't take much for that to happen. ?I am wondering if I should leave it alone for fear it is like shortening a leg on a chair.Hank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 8:38 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Greg,The view through the?conical port is?ridiculously good?actually. ?In the original location, I could see right in front of the sub, so I am willing to loose a bit of the view in front. ?I need to experiment more to get the perfect balance. ?My original sphere sub had a 24 in dia 4 inch thick port, so needless to say it was awesome. The comfort was very good because I could sit back without leaning ahead. ??Hank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 7:35 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, If I understand your email correctly, the only problem you will have is reduced view of the bottom since your port will be higher and angled slightly up during the dive. I ran into the same thing when laying out the side viewports for my sub- the ports needed to be comfortable to look out of and still give a good view downward.?Captain Kittredge made the ports for me and made them extra heavy so they could be welded in "angled down" without losing too much strength. The view turned out to be pretty good. Just curious- how was the comfort/ view in your previous spherical sub compared to the new sub? Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 11:41 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign Hi All,I made a BooBoo when I designed Elementary 3000. ?I did not spend enough time mocking up the port position for comfort. ?With the current port location in relation to the hatch, it is uncomfortable. ?If I raise the port 10 inches by rotating the sphere it is comfortable. ?I can lean forward easily and look out the port in this position. ?This means my hatch would be ?off level ?at the surface. ?Does this matter? ?it is better for staying open I guess. ?The back of the land will be 3.5 inches lower than the front. ?I am building a new body for the sphere to sit in-it will look more like a Square plastic ROV now than a submarine. ?I got the idea at Nuytco and actually commented to Phil that ?you could drop a sphere into the centre of their ROV and you would have a great sub. ??My plan is to have two MBT's, one for and one aft inside the plastic panel enclosure. ?If I make the aft MBT larger in volume, the sub will float at the surface with the hatch level to the water. ?When I sink the sub it will be off level with the pilot sitting level with the port where it needs to be. ?I am using plastic dock floats for MBT's.That should work?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 07:56:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:56:50 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED heat Message-ID: To all light minded people, I made mention earlier that my LED was getting quite hot (200 F, 93 C) in about 6 seconds when measured at 10mm off the LEDs front surface. The data said maximum operating temperature was 60C. I was able to consult with the Chinese engineers who said a normal COB (chip on board) LED will get up to 170C out front ( where the light shines); & my flip chips run cooler than that. They said as long as the heat sink doesn't overheat they will be OK. A bit of a relief but it probably means I can't use an acrylic lens unless oil filling the housing dissipates the heat quick enough. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 08:51:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 12:51:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign In-Reply-To: <2027806541.125176.1491814814142@mail.yahoo.com> References: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> <223021595.2908874.1491787812840@mail.yahoo.com> <1922198385.4561369.1491791531889@mail.yahoo.com> <2027806541.125176.1491814814142@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <350274860.211531.1491828682955@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,It is possible to take out a shallow scratch without distortion but it takes a lot of work. If the scratch was near the center, it can be wet sanded with a pneumatic?orbital sander feathering the surface out. Basically spread the sanded area over the whole surface. Use finer and finer wet sand grits till you reach?1500 then hand rub it clear. Avoid machine buffing because of heat. If the scratch is deep or off center then you'll have to turn the whole surface then wet sand/ buff and?anneal. Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 5:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign Greg,?I did learn a lesson with my port. ?I had a small scratch in the outside face, so I ?sanded it out and polished it. ?Now I have this small distortion in that spot. ?I sure doesn't take much for that to happen. ?I am wondering if I should leave it alone for fear it is like shortening a leg on a chair.Hank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 8:38 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Greg,The view through the?conical port is?ridiculously good?actually. ?In the original location, I could see right in front of the sub, so I am willing to loose a bit of the view in front. ?I need to experiment more to get the perfect balance. ?My original sphere sub had a 24 in dia 4 inch thick port, so needless to say it was awesome. The comfort was very good because I could sit back without leaning ahead. ??Hank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 7:35 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, If I understand your email correctly, the only problem you will have is reduced view of the bottom since your port will be higher and angled slightly up during the dive. I ran into the same thing when laying out the side viewports for my sub- the ports needed to be comfortable to look out of and still give a good view downward.?Captain Kittredge made the ports for me and made them extra heavy so they could be welded in "angled down" without losing too much strength. The view turned out to be pretty good. Just curious- how was the comfort/ view in your previous spherical sub compared to the new sub? Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 11:41 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign Hi All,I made a BooBoo when I designed Elementary 3000. ?I did not spend enough time mocking up the port position for comfort. ?With the current port location in relation to the hatch, it is uncomfortable. ?If I raise the port 10 inches by rotating the sphere it is comfortable. ?I can lean forward easily and look out the port in this position. ?This means my hatch would be ?off level ?at the surface. ?Does this matter? ?it is better for staying open I guess. ?The back of the land will be 3.5 inches lower than the front. ?I am building a new body for the sphere to sit in-it will look more like a Square plastic ROV now than a submarine. ?I got the idea at Nuytco and actually commented to Phil that ?you could drop a sphere into the centre of their ROV and you would have a great sub. ??My plan is to have two MBT's, one for and one aft inside the plastic panel enclosure. ?If I make the aft MBT larger in volume, the sub will float at the surface with the hatch level to the water. ?When I sink the sub it will be off level with the pilot sitting level with the port where it needs to be. ?I am using plastic dock floats for MBT's.That should work?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 10:20:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 14:20:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign In-Reply-To: <350274860.211531.1491828682955@mail.yahoo.com> References: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> <223021595.2908874.1491787812840@mail.yahoo.com> <1922198385.4561369.1491791531889@mail.yahoo.com> <2027806541.125176.1491814814142@mail.yahoo.com> <350274860.211531.1491828682955@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200356981.284566.1491834000969@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,I was a bit impatient I think, and 1500 is not fine enough for my polish. ?I have to go to 2000 grit, I use a cheap car polisher with no pressure. ?Hank On Monday, April 10, 2017 6:54 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,It is possible to take out a shallow scratch without distortion but it takes a lot of work. If the scratch was near the center, it can be wet sanded with a pneumatic?orbital sander feathering the surface out. Basically spread the sanded area over the whole surface. Use finer and finer wet sand grits till you reach?1500 then hand rub it clear. Avoid machine buffing because of heat. If the scratch is deep or off center then you'll have to turn the whole surface then wet sand/ buff and?anneal. Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 5:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign Greg,?I did learn a lesson with my port. ?I had a small scratch in the outside face, so I ?sanded it out and polished it. ?Now I have this small distortion in that spot. ?I sure doesn't take much for that to happen. ?I am wondering if I should leave it alone for fear it is like shortening a leg on a chair.Hank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 8:38 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Greg,The view through the?conical port is?ridiculously good?actually. ?In the original location, I could see right in front of the sub, so I am willing to loose a bit of the view in front. ?I need to experiment more to get the perfect balance. ?My original sphere sub had a 24 in dia 4 inch thick port, so needless to say it was awesome. The comfort was very good because I could sit back without leaning ahead. ??Hank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 7:35 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, If I understand your email correctly, the only problem you will have is reduced view of the bottom since your port will be higher and angled slightly up during the dive. I ran into the same thing when laying out the side viewports for my sub- the ports needed to be comfortable to look out of and still give a good view downward.?Captain Kittredge made the ports for me and made them extra heavy so they could be welded in "angled down" without losing too much strength. The view turned out to be pretty good. Just curious- how was the comfort/ view in your previous spherical sub compared to the new sub? Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 11:41 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign Hi All,I made a BooBoo when I designed Elementary 3000. ?I did not spend enough time mocking up the port position for comfort. ?With the current port location in relation to the hatch, it is uncomfortable. ?If I raise the port 10 inches by rotating the sphere it is comfortable. ?I can lean forward easily and look out the port in this position. ?This means my hatch would be ?off level ?at the surface. ?Does this matter? ?it is better for staying open I guess. ?The back of the land will be 3.5 inches lower than the front. ?I am building a new body for the sphere to sit in-it will look more like a Square plastic ROV now than a submarine. ?I got the idea at Nuytco and actually commented to Phil that ?you could drop a sphere into the centre of their ROV and you would have a great sub. ??My plan is to have two MBT's, one for and one aft inside the plastic panel enclosure. ?If I make the aft MBT larger in volume, the sub will float at the surface with the hatch level to the water. ?When I sink the sub it will be off level with the pilot sitting level with the port where it needs to be. ?I am using plastic dock floats for MBT's.That should work?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 10:27:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:27:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> What I've gleaned so far is that regardless of oil vs air method, nobody has addressed the space between the shaft seals on the minn-kota so from that perspective the methods are equal. Regarding that void between the seals I have to again wonder if the two seals are really necessary in a compensated system. I'm looking at one of my MK101 lower units and the space between seals is about 6mm. But for sake of argument, assuming both seals are required, could you not simply remove the spacer and outer seal, fill some part of the void with oil and then discard the spacer but install the outer seal so it butts against the oil reservoir creating a sandwich of inner-seal, oil, outer-seal. I really like the air compensation system that Greg and Cliff described. While it is simplistic in theory, I am concerned that I am going to end up with an octopus of tubing trying to retrofit it to the K-600 using the existing hull penetrations. However, not needing to pot the wires at the motor or worry about fluid creep between insulating wires is attractive. I also notice in my unit that there is white grease lubricating the thrust bearing and shaft seals. Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 10:32:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:32:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals Message-ID: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Ok, what's the secret here? Poking around one of my MK101 lower units to get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal trying to remove it. I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated and just fit tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft. However, it looks like they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section of the motor housing. Anyone removed these things? I can't find anything on the internet with instructions on how to remove them. I can't just pull them out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase new seals. :) Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 10:45:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:45:12 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <594011761.4436497.1491776861755@mail.yahoo.com> References: <594011761.4436497.1491776861755@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Always nice to see a boat in the water and testing new kit. Send more video when the lake thaws. Cliff On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 5:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > New video > I just got back from the lake, this is subbing in Canada > Hank > > > On Sunday, April 9, 2017 4:26 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > MVI 0449 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG2TAuck940 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2017-04-09 at 4.25 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16154 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 10:53:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 14:53:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign In-Reply-To: <200356981.284566.1491834000969@mail.yahoo.com> References: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> <223021595.2908874.1491787812840@mail.yahoo.com> <1922198385.4561369.1491791531889@mail.yahoo.com> <2027806541.125176.1491814814142@mail.yahoo.com> <350274860.211531.1491828682955@mail.yahoo.com> <200356981.284566.1491834000969@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <546968153.312435.1491835998329@mail.yahoo.com> Finer grit is always good . As far as polish goes I like to use Novus #2. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign Greg,I was a bit impatient I think, and 1500 is not fine enough for my polish. ?I have to go to 2000 grit, I use a cheap car polisher with no pressure. ?Hank On Monday, April 10, 2017 6:54 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,It is possible to take out a shallow scratch without distortion but it takes a lot of work. If the scratch was near the center, it can be wet sanded with a pneumatic?orbital sander feathering the surface out. Basically spread the sanded area over the whole surface. Use finer and finer wet sand grits till you reach?1500 then hand rub it clear. Avoid machine buffing because of heat. If the scratch is deep or off center then you'll have to turn the whole surface then wet sand/ buff and?anneal. Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 5:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign Greg,?I did learn a lesson with my port. ?I had a small scratch in the outside face, so I ?sanded it out and polished it. ?Now I have this small distortion in that spot. ?I sure doesn't take much for that to happen. ?I am wondering if I should leave it alone for fear it is like shortening a leg on a chair.Hank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 8:38 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Greg,The view through the?conical port is?ridiculously good?actually. ?In the original location, I could see right in front of the sub, so I am willing to loose a bit of the view in front. ?I need to experiment more to get the perfect balance. ?My original sphere sub had a 24 in dia 4 inch thick port, so needless to say it was awesome. The comfort was very good because I could sit back without leaning ahead. ??Hank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 7:35 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, If I understand your email correctly, the only problem you will have is reduced view of the bottom since your port will be higher and angled slightly up during the dive. I ran into the same thing when laying out the side viewports for my sub- the ports needed to be comfortable to look out of and still give a good view downward.?Captain Kittredge made the ports for me and made them extra heavy so they could be welded in "angled down" without losing too much strength. The view turned out to be pretty good. Just curious- how was the comfort/ view in your previous spherical sub compared to the new sub? Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 11:41 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign Hi All,I made a BooBoo when I designed Elementary 3000. ?I did not spend enough time mocking up the port position for comfort. ?With the current port location in relation to the hatch, it is uncomfortable. ?If I raise the port 10 inches by rotating the sphere it is comfortable. ?I can lean forward easily and look out the port in this position. ?This means my hatch would be ?off level ?at the surface. ?Does this matter? ?it is better for staying open I guess. ?The back of the land will be 3.5 inches lower than the front. ?I am building a new body for the sphere to sit in-it will look more like a Square plastic ROV now than a submarine. ?I got the idea at Nuytco and actually commented to Phil that ?you could drop a sphere into the centre of their ROV and you would have a great sub. ??My plan is to have two MBT's, one for and one aft inside the plastic panel enclosure. ?If I make the aft MBT larger in volume, the sub will float at the surface with the hatch level to the water. ?When I sink the sub it will be off level with the pilot sitting level with the port where it needs to be. ?I am using plastic dock floats for MBT's.That should work?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 12:04:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:04:38 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals Message-ID: <20170410090438.34162772@m0087795.ppops.net> Jon, I have just recently have been educated on seals myself. They really need to be tapped out from the opposite side. A big socket works good to distribute the force evenly. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:32:32 -0400 Ok, what's the secret here? Poking around one of my MK101 lower units to get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal trying to remove it. I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated and just fit tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft. However, it looks like they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section of the motor housing. Anyone removed these things? I can't find anything on the internet with instructions on how to remove them. I can't just pull them out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase new seals. :) Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 12:15:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:15:36 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> Message-ID: I just got off the phone with the Parker guys, their elastomer seal group out of Utah. I discussed the MK-101 application issue with them as it applies to my boat (air compensation, 4 psi differential, 450 fsw max ambient). I guided the conversation towards the KISS principle rather than evaluating more sophisticated seals such a double mechanical cartridge seals. The guy I spoke with said that the 1-atm gap between the two lip seals, as per the manufacturers original design, is very likely to cause a problem as well as seal orientation. His recommendation was to use the two existing lip seals but to reverse them, so that the outer bound seal could handle the situation where the pressure compensation is off and boat is just sitting in the water over night and the inner seal is oriented so it can handle the normal operating condition of a 4 psi higher internal pressure than ambient. He also suggested using a seawater and freshwater resistant grease between the seals rather than oil to help prevent this barrier fluid from leaking out. He also suggested removing the cardboard spacer. Under normal operating conditions when the thruster is being pressure compensated, the 4 psi is trying to push both seals out of the Minn-Kota Brushed End Housing part but due to the lip seal interference fit, they should stay in place. I am inclined to give this a try. Not sure what greese to try but a quick look online looks like DuPont Marine Grease with Teflon fluropolymer might work. https://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Teflon-Waterproof-cartridge-DGM614101/dp/B003UTX0N2 http://www.performancelubricantsusa.com/product/marine-waterproof-grease.php Does anyone have a better recommendation for a saltwater -freshwater resistant grease for this application? On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > What I've gleaned so far is that regardless of oil vs air method, nobody > has addressed the space between the shaft seals on the minn-kota so from > that perspective the methods are equal. Regarding that void between the > seals I have to again wonder if the two seals are really necessary in a > compensated system. I'm looking at one of my MK101 lower units and the > space between seals is about 6mm. But for sake of argument, assuming both > seals are required, could you not simply remove the spacer and outer seal, > fill some part of the void with oil and then discard the spacer but install > the outer seal so it butts against the oil reservoir creating a sandwich of > inner-seal, oil, outer-seal. > > I really like the air compensation system that Greg and Cliff described. > While it is simplistic in theory, I am concerned that I am going to end up > with an octopus of tubing trying to retrofit it to the K-600 using the > existing hull penetrations. However, not needing to pot the wires at the > motor or worry about fluid creep between insulating wires is attractive. I > also notice in my unit that there is white grease lubricating the thrust > bearing and shaft seals. > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 12:19:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:19:11 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: Jon, my experience is due to the interference fit, no matter what you do you are going to damage the two lips seals removing them. I just accept this and buys new ones which are cheap. When installing, I use an arbor press with a socket that just fits the 1.125" ID of the Minn-Kota 101 brushed end housing and press in the seals. cliff On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Ok, what's the secret here? Poking around one of my MK101 lower units to > get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal trying to remove > it. I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated and just fit > tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft. However, it looks like > they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section of the motor > housing. Anyone removed these things? I can't find anything on the > internet with instructions on how to remove them. I can't just pull them > out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase new > seals. :) > > Jon > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 12:28:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 12:28:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <20170410090438.34162772@m0087795.ppops.net> References: <20170410090438.34162772@m0087795.ppops.net> Message-ID: <757580eb-f0aa-9137-5cff-6593d432d840@psubs.org> The brass shaft bushing is installed from that side and it looks like that is press-fit in as well so I can't knock the seals out from the back side unless the bushing comes out first. However, I can't knock the bushing out from the water-side of the housing because the seals are in the way. Need a photo? Jon On 4/10/2017 12:04 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, I have just recently have been educated on seals myself. They really need to be tapped out from the opposite side. A big socket works good to distribute the force evenly. > > Brian > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 12:31:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 12:31:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: Cliff, no problem busting the seals and putting in new ones but my question is how to get them out given that the brass shaft bushing is installed on the other side and so I can't knock them out from behind. Jon On 4/10/2017 12:19 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, my experience is due to the interference fit, no matter what you > do you are going to damage the two lips seals removing them. I just > accept this and buys new ones which are cheap. When installing, I use > an arbor press with a socket that just fits the 1.125" ID of the > Minn-Kota 101 brushed end housing and press in the seals. > > cliff From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 12:39:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:39:19 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: What I found best was to use a flat head screw driver and tap out the brass shaft bearing first. With this out of the way, you can use the flat head screw driver to tap out the lip seals. On reinstalling, leave pressing the brass shaft bearing to last. Cliff On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, no problem busting the seals and putting in new ones but my > question is how to get them out given that the brass shaft bushing is > installed on the other side and so I can't knock them out from behind. > > Jon > > > On 4/10/2017 12:19 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Jon, my experience is due to the interference fit, no matter what you do >> you are going to damage the two lips seals removing them. I just accept >> this and buys new ones which are cheap. When installing, I use an arbor >> press with a socket that just fits the 1.125" ID of the Minn-Kota 101 >> brushed end housing and press in the seals. >> >> cliff >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 12:54:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:54:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals Message-ID: <20170410095404.3404EA28@m0087791.ppops.net> Jon, The seals are cheap and expendable as well. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:32:32 -0400 Ok, what's the secret here? Poking around one of my MK101 lower units to get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal trying to remove it. I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated and just fit tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft. However, it looks like they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section of the motor housing. Anyone removed these things? I can't find anything on the internet with instructions on how to remove them. I can't just pull them out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase new seals. :) Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 13:37:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 07:37:50 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign In-Reply-To: <2027806541.125176.1491814814142@mail.yahoo.com> References: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> <223021595.2908874.1491787812840@mail.yahoo.com> <1922198385.4561369.1491791531889@mail.yahoo.com> <2027806541.125176.1491814814142@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I thought that small scratches on the outside of the view port lens usually weren't noticeable when wetted by being underwater? Rick On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 11:00 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Greg, > I did learn a lesson with my port. I had a small scratch in the outside > face, so I sanded it out and polished it. Now I have this small > distortion in that spot. I sure doesn't take much for that to happen. I > am wondering if I should leave it alone for fear it is like shortening a > leg on a chair. > Hank > > > On Sunday, April 9, 2017 8:38 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hi Greg, > The view through the conical port is ridiculously good actually. In the > original location, I could see right in front of the sub, so I am willing > to loose a bit of the view in front. I need to experiment more to get the > perfect balance. My original sphere sub had a 24 in dia 4 inch thick port, > so needless to say it was awesome. The comfort was very good because I > could sit back without leaning ahead. > Hank > > > On Sunday, April 9, 2017 7:35 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > > If I understand your email correctly, the only problem you will have is > reduced view of the bottom since your port will be higher and angled > slightly up during the dive. I ran into the same thing when laying out the > side viewports for my sub- the ports needed to be comfortable to look out > of and still give a good view downward. Captain Kittredge made the ports > for me and made them extra heavy so they could be welded in "angled down" > without losing too much strength. The view turned out to be pretty good. > > Just curious- how was the comfort/ view in your previous spherical sub > compared to the new sub? > > Greg C > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, April 9, 2017 11:41 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign > > Hi All, > I made a BooBoo when I designed Elementary 3000. I did not spend enough > time mocking up the port position for comfort. With the current port > location in relation to the hatch, it is uncomfortable. If I raise the > port 10 inches by rotating the sphere it is comfortable. I can lean > forward easily and look out the port in this position. This means my hatch > would be off level at the surface. Does this matter? it is better for > staying open I guess. The back of the land will be 3.5 inches lower than > the front. > I am building a new body for the sphere to sit in-it will look more like a > Square plastic ROV now than a submarine. I got the idea at Nuytco and > actually commented to Phil that you could drop a sphere into the centre of > their ROV and you would have a great sub. > My plan is to have two MBT's, one for and one aft inside the plastic panel > enclosure. If I make the aft MBT larger in volume, the sub will float at > the surface with the hatch level to the water. When I sink the sub it will > be off level with the pilot sitting level with the port where it needs to > be. I am using plastic dock floats for MBT's. > That should work > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 13:44:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 07:44:38 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: Jon, What about calling tech support at Minn-Kota? That's what I do sometimes on certain things and it helps a lot. Rick On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 4:32 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Ok, what's the secret here? Poking around one of my MK101 lower units to > get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal trying to remove > it. I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated and just fit > tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft. However, it looks like > they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section of the motor > housing. Anyone removed these things? I can't find anything on the > internet with instructions on how to remove them. I can't just pull them > out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase new > seals. :) > > Jon > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 15:11:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:11:33 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: Jon, just be careful you don't damage the seal seat ( bore) or future seals may leak. You could try threading an over sized bolt in to it & pulling on the bolt with a hammer. Maybe hit the bolt in to get it started. You could also heat the housing around the bore first. There is a plethora of tools if you google on image search; but these are on the small size. I have said before that there is a use to the outer seal as a "dust cover" function to keep muck away from the more important inner seal. A cheap protective seal that is easy to replace! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 11/04/2017, at 2:32 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Ok, what's the secret here? Poking around one of my MK101 lower units to get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal trying to remove it. I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated and just fit tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft. However, it looks like they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section of the motor housing. Anyone removed these things? I can't find anything on the internet with instructions on how to remove them. I can't just pull them out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase new seals. :) > > Jon > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 16:17:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 16:17:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: What if we just drill a little hole in the outer seal, and leave it in place? Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Jon, > just be careful you don't damage the seal seat ( bore) or future > seals may leak. > You could try threading an over sized bolt in to it & pulling on the > bolt with a hammer. Maybe hit the bolt in to get it started. > You could also heat the housing around the bore first. > There is a plethora of tools if you google on image search; but > these are on the small size. > I have said before that there is a use to the outer seal as a "dust > cover" function to keep muck away from the more important inner seal. > A cheap protective seal that is easy to replace! > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 11/04/2017, at 2:32 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > > Ok, what's the secret here? Poking around one of my MK101 lower units > to get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal trying to > remove it. I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated and just > fit tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft. However, it looks > like they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section of the > motor housing. Anyone removed these things? I can't find anything on the > internet with instructions on how to remove them. I can't just pull them > out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase new > seals. :) > > > > Jon > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 17:29:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 16:29:31 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: Inbound functioning seal will be facing the wrong direction for a pressure compensated unit if you left the seal set in place that comes with the unit. Cliff On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > What if we just drill a little hole in the outer seal, and leave it in > place? > > Best, > > Alec > > On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Jon, >> just be careful you don't damage the seal seat ( bore) or future >> seals may leak. >> You could try threading an over sized bolt in to it & pulling on the >> bolt with a hammer. Maybe hit the bolt in to get it started. >> You could also heat the housing around the bore first. >> There is a plethora of tools if you google on image search; but >> these are on the small size. >> I have said before that there is a use to the outer seal as a "dust >> cover" function to keep muck away from the more important inner seal. >> A cheap protective seal that is easy to replace! >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On 11/04/2017, at 2:32 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> > >> > Ok, what's the secret here? Poking around one of my MK101 lower units >> to get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal trying to >> remove it. I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated and just >> fit tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft. However, it looks >> like they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section of the >> motor housing. Anyone removed these things? I can't find anything on the >> internet with instructions on how to remove them. I can't just pull them >> out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase new >> seals. :) >> > >> > Jon >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 17:57:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 17:57:39 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: That's a good conundrum. Let's assume the pressure compensation is to a very small pressure above ambient (one could also compensate slightly below ambient, but I suspect everyone goes above). With the seal in the direction to keep water pressure out and in the wrong direction for the internal pressure, it could leak air - but the question is how many psi it would take for that. On the other hand, if you were below whatever threshold that is and there isn't any leak, I actually still like the idea of having the seal oriented to keep water out, as it's better than nothing in the case of a compensation failure. I still have both seals in and am scheduled to test Shackleton later this week. These are going to be very shallow dives, so the air gap between seals isn't an issue I've bothered with yet. But I think at the end of the day, if all is working well and we've got some dives in, I'm going to go ahead and drill the outer seal of one of the thrusters and just see if any bubbles escape. My pressure compensation is set at 5 psi over ambient. If that turns out to be below the reverse blowout threshold, I like the idea of drilled outer seals for its simplicity. Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 5:29 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Inbound functioning seal will be facing the wrong direction for a pressure > compensated unit if you left the seal set in place that comes with the > unit. > > Cliff > > On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> What if we just drill a little hole in the outer seal, and leave it in >> place? >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Jon, >>> just be careful you don't damage the seal seat ( bore) or future >>> seals may leak. >>> You could try threading an over sized bolt in to it & pulling on the >>> bolt with a hammer. Maybe hit the bolt in to get it started. >>> You could also heat the housing around the bore first. >>> There is a plethora of tools if you google on image search; but >>> these are on the small size. >>> I have said before that there is a use to the outer seal as a "dust >>> cover" function to keep muck away from the more important inner seal. >>> A cheap protective seal that is easy to replace! >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> > On 11/04/2017, at 2:32 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > Ok, what's the secret here? Poking around one of my MK101 lower units >>> to get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal trying to >>> remove it. I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated and just >>> fit tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft. However, it looks >>> like they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section of the >>> motor housing. Anyone removed these things? I can't find anything on the >>> internet with instructions on how to remove them. I can't just pull them >>> out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase new >>> seals. :) >>> > >>> > Jon >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 18:35:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 22:35:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign In-Reply-To: References: <794833005.4293375.1491752142802.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <794833005.4293375.1491752142802@mail.yahoo.com> <223021595.2908874.1491787812840@mail.yahoo.com> <1922198385.4561369.1491791531889@mail.yahoo.com> <2027806541.125176.1491814814142@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2093768952.151720.1491863722199@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,You?correct, the scratches in the water disappear. ?The protection dome is pretty beat up with scratches and it completely disappears under water. ?I just removed the scratch for aesthetics.Hank On Monday, April 10, 2017 11:38 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I thought that small scratches on the outside of the view port lens usually weren't noticeable when wetted by being underwater?? Rick On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 11:00 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,?I did learn a lesson with my port.? I had a small scratch in the outside face, so I ?sanded it out and polished it.? Now I have this small distortion in that spot.? I sure doesn't take much for that to happen.? I am wondering if I should leave it alone for fear it is like shortening a leg on a chair.Hank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 8:38 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Greg,The view through the?conical port is?ridiculously good?actually.? In the original location, I could see right in front of the sub, so I am willing to loose a bit of the view in front.? I need to experiment more to get the perfect balance.? My original sphere sub had a 24 in dia 4 inch thick port, so needless to say it was awesome. The comfort was very good because I could sit back without leaning ahead. ??Hank On Sunday, April 9, 2017 7:35 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, If I understand your email correctly, the only problem you will have is reduced view of the bottom since your port will be higher and angled slightly up during the dive. I ran into the same thing when laying out the side viewports for my sub- the ports needed to be comfortable to look out of and still give a good view downward.?Captain Kittredge made the ports for me and made them extra heavy so they could be welded in "angled down" without losing too much strength. The view turned out to be pretty good. Just curious- how was the comfort/ view in your previous spherical sub compared to the new sub? Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 11:41 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Elementary 3000 redesign Hi All,I made a BooBoo when I designed Elementary 3000.? I did not spend enough time mocking up the port position for comfort.? With the current port location in relation to the hatch, it is uncomfortable.? If I raise the port 10 inches by rotating the sphere it is comfortable.? I can lean forward easily and look out the port in this position.? This means my hatch would be ?off level ?at the surface.? Does this matter? ?it is better for staying open I guess.? The back of the land will be 3.5 inches lower than the front. ?I am building a new body for the sphere to sit in-it will look more like a Square plastic ROV now than a submarine.? I got the idea at Nuytco and actually commented to Phil that ?you could drop a sphere into the centre of their ROV and you would have a great sub. ??My plan is to have two MBT's, one for and one aft inside the plastic panel enclosure.? If I make the aft MBT larger in volume, the sub will float at the surface with the hatch level to the water.? When I sink the sub it will be off level with the pilot sitting level with the port where it needs to be.? I am using plastic dock floats for MBT's.That should work?Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 18:37:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 22:37:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] polish References: <1567284374.118716.1491863840406.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1567284374.118716.1491863840406@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Greg,I lost the email with the polish you mentioned. ?I would like to get the proper stuff.Thank youHank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 19:12:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 18:12:04 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: I think this could work Alec and it does fit the KISS principle but I don't think it an optimum solution. I like the feed back I got to day from the Parker seal guy to pull both seals and reset with the inbound set to resist high internal pressure and the outbound seal set for higher ambient pressure and grease in place of the dead air space. This is going to be the arrangement I try next. I don't have a good feel of how much differential pressure across a backward facing lip would cause it to leak air. I really think we need to put one of the Minn-Kota 101 units in a controlled test chamber and try out some of these variables, test them to depth and then tear them down for inspection. Seem with psubs, there is always one more thing to research. Cliff On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > That's a good conundrum. Let's assume the pressure compensation is to a > very small pressure above ambient (one could also compensate slightly below > ambient, but I suspect everyone goes above). With the seal in the direction > to keep water pressure out and in the wrong direction for the internal > pressure, it could leak air - but the question is how many psi it would > take for that. On the other hand, if you were below whatever threshold that > is and there isn't any leak, I actually still like the idea of having the > seal oriented to keep water out, as it's better than nothing in the case of > a compensation failure. > > I still have both seals in and am scheduled to test Shackleton later this > week. These are going to be very shallow dives, so the air gap between > seals isn't an issue I've bothered with yet. But I think at the end of the > day, if all is working well and we've got some dives in, I'm going to go > ahead and drill the outer seal of one of the thrusters and just see if any > bubbles escape. My pressure compensation is set at 5 psi over ambient. If > that turns out to be below the reverse blowout threshold, I like the idea > of drilled outer seals for its simplicity. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 5:29 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Inbound functioning seal will be facing the wrong direction for a >> pressure compensated unit if you left the seal set in place that comes with >> the unit. >> >> Cliff >> >> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> What if we just drill a little hole in the outer seal, and leave it in >>> place? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Jon, >>>> just be careful you don't damage the seal seat ( bore) or future >>>> seals may leak. >>>> You could try threading an over sized bolt in to it & pulling on the >>>> bolt with a hammer. Maybe hit the bolt in to get it started. >>>> You could also heat the housing around the bore first. >>>> There is a plethora of tools if you google on image search; but >>>> these are on the small size. >>>> I have said before that there is a use to the outer seal as a "dust >>>> cover" function to keep muck away from the more important inner seal. >>>> A cheap protective seal that is easy to replace! >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> > On 11/04/2017, at 2:32 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Ok, what's the secret here? Poking around one of my MK101 lower >>>> units to get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal trying to >>>> remove it. I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated and just >>>> fit tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft. However, it looks >>>> like they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section of the >>>> motor housing. Anyone removed these things? I can't find anything on the >>>> internet with instructions on how to remove them. I can't just pull them >>>> out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase new >>>> seals. :) >>>> > >>>> > Jon >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 19:30:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 17:30:32 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: xiUic3l4ZMs6WxiUjc96JU References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> xiUic3l4ZMs6WxiUjc96JU Message-ID: Is it possible to drill and port a channel to the inter-seal volume on one of those motors? Sean On April 10, 2017 5:12:04 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I think this could work Alec and it does fit the KISS principle but I >don't >think it an optimum solution. I like the feed back I got to day from >the >Parker seal guy to pull both seals and reset with the inbound set to >resist >high internal pressure and the outbound seal set for higher ambient >pressure and grease in place of the dead air space. This is going to >be >the arrangement I try next. > > I don't have a good feel of how much differential pressure across a >backward facing lip would cause it to leak air. I really think we need >to >put one of the Minn-Kota 101 units in a controlled test chamber and try >out >some of these variables, test them to depth and then tear them down for >inspection. Seem with psubs, there is always one more thing to >research. > >Cliff > >On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> That's a good conundrum. Let's assume the pressure compensation is to >a >> very small pressure above ambient (one could also compensate slightly >below >> ambient, but I suspect everyone goes above). With the seal in the >direction >> to keep water pressure out and in the wrong direction for the >internal >> pressure, it could leak air - but the question is how many psi it >would >> take for that. On the other hand, if you were below whatever >threshold that >> is and there isn't any leak, I actually still like the idea of having >the >> seal oriented to keep water out, as it's better than nothing in the >case of >> a compensation failure. >> >> I still have both seals in and am scheduled to test Shackleton later >this >> week. These are going to be very shallow dives, so the air gap >between >> seals isn't an issue I've bothered with yet. But I think at the end >of the >> day, if all is working well and we've got some dives in, I'm going to >go >> ahead and drill the outer seal of one of the thrusters and just see >if any >> bubbles escape. My pressure compensation is set at 5 psi over >ambient. If >> that turns out to be below the reverse blowout threshold, I like the >idea >> of drilled outer seals for its simplicity. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 5:29 PM, Cliff Redus via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Inbound functioning seal will be facing the wrong direction for a >>> pressure compensated unit if you left the seal set in place that >comes with >>> the unit. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> What if we just drill a little hole in the outer seal, and leave it >in >>>> place? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jon, >>>>> just be careful you don't damage the seal seat ( bore) or future >>>>> seals may leak. >>>>> You could try threading an over sized bolt in to it & pulling on >the >>>>> bolt with a hammer. Maybe hit the bolt in to get it started. >>>>> You could also heat the housing around the bore first. >>>>> There is a plethora of tools if you google on image search; but >>>>> these are on the small size. >>>>> I have said before that there is a use to the outer seal as a >"dust >>>>> cover" function to keep muck away from the more important inner >seal. >>>>> A cheap protective seal that is easy to replace! >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> > On 11/04/2017, at 2:32 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >< >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Ok, what's the secret here? Poking around one of my MK101 lower >>>>> units to get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal >trying to >>>>> remove it. I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated >and just >>>>> fit tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft. However, >it looks >>>>> like they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section >of the >>>>> motor housing. Anyone removed these things? I can't find >anything on the >>>>> internet with instructions on how to remove them. I can't just >pull them >>>>> out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase >new >>>>> seals. :) >>>>> > >>>>> > Jon >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 21:30:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:30:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: I agree, that Parker suggestion makes sense so long as one can get ALL the air out of the gap. No idea if that's easy, but I guess I'll be finding out soon. I wonder what Karl Stanley did with his seals? :) Alec On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I think this could work Alec and it does fit the KISS principle but I > don't think it an optimum solution. I like the feed back I got to day from > the Parker seal guy to pull both seals and reset with the inbound set to > resist high internal pressure and the outbound seal set for higher ambient > pressure and grease in place of the dead air space. This is going to be > the arrangement I try next. > > I don't have a good feel of how much differential pressure across a > backward facing lip would cause it to leak air. I really think we need to > put one of the Minn-Kota 101 units in a controlled test chamber and try out > some of these variables, test them to depth and then tear them down for > inspection. Seem with psubs, there is always one more thing to research. > > Cliff > > On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> That's a good conundrum. Let's assume the pressure compensation is to a >> very small pressure above ambient (one could also compensate slightly below >> ambient, but I suspect everyone goes above). With the seal in the direction >> to keep water pressure out and in the wrong direction for the internal >> pressure, it could leak air - but the question is how many psi it would >> take for that. On the other hand, if you were below whatever threshold that >> is and there isn't any leak, I actually still like the idea of having the >> seal oriented to keep water out, as it's better than nothing in the case of >> a compensation failure. >> >> I still have both seals in and am scheduled to test Shackleton later this >> week. These are going to be very shallow dives, so the air gap between >> seals isn't an issue I've bothered with yet. But I think at the end of the >> day, if all is working well and we've got some dives in, I'm going to go >> ahead and drill the outer seal of one of the thrusters and just see if any >> bubbles escape. My pressure compensation is set at 5 psi over ambient. If >> that turns out to be below the reverse blowout threshold, I like the idea >> of drilled outer seals for its simplicity. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 5:29 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Inbound functioning seal will be facing the wrong direction for a >>> pressure compensated unit if you left the seal set in place that comes with >>> the unit. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> What if we just drill a little hole in the outer seal, and leave it in >>>> place? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jon, >>>>> just be careful you don't damage the seal seat ( bore) or future >>>>> seals may leak. >>>>> You could try threading an over sized bolt in to it & pulling on the >>>>> bolt with a hammer. Maybe hit the bolt in to get it started. >>>>> You could also heat the housing around the bore first. >>>>> There is a plethora of tools if you google on image search; but >>>>> these are on the small size. >>>>> I have said before that there is a use to the outer seal as a "dust >>>>> cover" function to keep muck away from the more important inner seal. >>>>> A cheap protective seal that is easy to replace! >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> > On 11/04/2017, at 2:32 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Ok, what's the secret here? Poking around one of my MK101 lower >>>>> units to get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal trying to >>>>> remove it. I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated and just >>>>> fit tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft. However, it looks >>>>> like they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section of the >>>>> motor housing. Anyone removed these things? I can't find anything on the >>>>> internet with instructions on how to remove them. I can't just pull them >>>>> out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase new >>>>> seals. :) >>>>> > >>>>> > Jon >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 21:38:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 19:38:59 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: xbzhcBzcRLrIFxbzicilLu References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> xbzhcBzcRLrIFxbzicilLu Message-ID: http://www.finning.com/content/dam/finning/en_ca/Documents/Parts/Maintenance-Products/Grease/Marine-Grease-Datasheet.pdf Sean On April 10, 2017 10:15:36 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I just got off the phone with the Parker guys, their elastomer seal >group >out of Utah. I discussed the MK-101 application issue with them as it >applies to my boat (air compensation, 4 psi differential, 450 fsw max >ambient). I guided the conversation towards the KISS principle rather >than >evaluating more sophisticated seals such a double mechanical cartridge >seals. The guy I spoke with said that the 1-atm gap between the two lip >seals, as per the manufacturers original design, is very likely to >cause >a problem as well as seal orientation. His recommendation was to use >the >two existing lip seals but to reverse them, so that the outer bound >seal >could handle the situation where the pressure compensation is off and >boat >is just sitting in the water over night and the inner seal is oriented >so >it can handle the normal operating condition of a 4 psi higher internal >pressure than ambient. He also suggested using a seawater and >freshwater >resistant grease between the seals rather than oil to help prevent >this >barrier fluid from leaking out. He also suggested removing the >cardboard >spacer. Under normal operating conditions when the thruster is being >pressure compensated, the 4 psi is trying to push both seals out of >the Minn-Kota Brushed End Housing part but due to the lip seal >interference >fit, they should stay in place. > >I am inclined to give this a try. Not sure what greese to try but a >quick >look online looks like DuPont Marine Grease with Teflon fluropolymer >might >work. >https://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Teflon-Waterproof-cartridge-DGM614101/dp/B003UTX0N2 >http://www.performancelubricantsusa.com/product/marine-waterproof-grease.php > >Does anyone have a better recommendation for a saltwater -freshwater >resistant grease for this application? > > > > > >On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >< >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> >> What I've gleaned so far is that regardless of oil vs air method, >nobody >> has addressed the space between the shaft seals on the minn-kota so >from >> that perspective the methods are equal. Regarding that void between >the >> seals I have to again wonder if the two seals are really necessary in >a >> compensated system. I'm looking at one of my MK101 lower units and >the >> space between seals is about 6mm. But for sake of argument, assuming >both >> seals are required, could you not simply remove the spacer and outer >seal, >> fill some part of the void with oil and then discard the spacer but >install >> the outer seal so it butts against the oil reservoir creating a >sandwich of >> inner-seal, oil, outer-seal. >> >> I really like the air compensation system that Greg and Cliff >described. >> While it is simplistic in theory, I am concerned that I am going to >end up >> with an octopus of tubing trying to retrofit it to the K-600 using >the >> existing hull penetrations. However, not needing to pot the wires at >the >> motor or worry about fluid creep between insulating wires is >attractive. I >> also notice in my unit that there is white grease lubricating the >thrust >> bearing and shaft seals. >> >> Jon >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 22:30:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 22:30:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: <9bc585f8-0add-dfe4-b540-99cabd208452@psubs.org> It is on the RIPTIDE MK101 although it looks like you'd have to drill through the outside of the housing to get access to the void and then seal the outside shell somehow. You'd also want to measure twice before drilling...I think there's only about a 6-8mm void between the seals. Jon On 4/10/2017 7:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Is it possible to drill and port a channel to the inter-seal volume on > one of those motors? > > Sean > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 22:36:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 16:36:32 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <9bc585f8-0add-dfe4-b540-99cabd208452@psubs.org> References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> <9bc585f8-0add-dfe4-b540-99cabd208452@psubs.org> Message-ID: Jon, This thread came up a while ago and someone mentioned packing the void between the 0 rings with something like grease. I haven't looked closely at the 3 I bought when you got yours but I plan on packing the void with silicone grease which sounded like a good idea. It lubricates and also fills up an air cavity? Rick On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > It is on the RIPTIDE MK101 although it looks like you'd have to drill > through the outside of the housing to get access to the void and then seal > the outside shell somehow. You'd also want to measure twice before > drilling...I think there's only about a 6-8mm void between the seals. > > Jon > > > On 4/10/2017 7:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> >> Is it possible to drill and port a channel to the inter-seal volume on >> one of those motors? >> >> Sean >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 22:54:44 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 20:54:44 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: xlayc4oancRz6xlb0cDGVf References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> xlayc4oancRz6xlb0cDGVf Message-ID: <53a8fb7c-5f1a-4f71-b78a-9495b6917996@email.android.com> 6-8 mm is plenty, provided you can accurately locate the center between them. A channel for oil / pressure communication doesn't need to be more than 1/8". The "ultimate" implementation I described in a previous message would still be my no holds barred solution, but it occurred to me that you could approximate the same behaviour without the second compensator by simply using an in-line check valve with a known cracking pressure. If there is enough meat in the housing to accommodate e.g. a 1/8 NPT Swagelok fitting to provide a connection to that inter-seal space, then you could pipe the air compensation to the main motor housing at ambient pressure + a bias pressure as previously discussed. If, however, that bias pressure is equal to the cracking pressure of the check valve, then you could also tee off that supply line, through the check valve, into the inter-seal volume. This would compensate it at approximately ambient pressure without requiring a separate unbiased compensation source in addition to the biased one. Any accumulated overpressure would just blow past the seal lip. Sean On April 10, 2017 8:30:45 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >It is on the RIPTIDE MK101 although it looks like you'd have to drill >through the outside of the housing to get access to the void and then >seal the outside shell somehow. You'd also want to measure twice >before >drilling...I think there's only about a 6-8mm void between the seals. > >Jon > > >On 4/10/2017 7:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >wrote: >> >> Is it possible to drill and port a channel to the inter-seal volume >on >> one of those motors? >> >> Sean >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 23:00:27 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:00:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: <13928400-5f91-26c9-23f0-e3cc3f1b5c40@psubs.org> Alan, I was able to get the brass bearing and seals out of the housing as described by Cliff. The brass bearing has to come out first, however using a flat bladed screwdriver and significant blows to move it caused gouges and deformities in the bearing so it will have to be replaced as well, but at $5(US) its not an issue. The socket I used was undersized just a bit, but enough to push through the inner seal without moving it. It did catch enough of the outer seal however to push it out. I had to use the flat-bladed screw driver method to push the inner seal out. There was JUST enough of a shoulder to catch. No damage to the channel that houses the seals. As discussed, there are two seals and a cardboard spacer. The spacer is 8mm wide and 2mm thick. There is NO steel washer on either seal for the MK101 model. I don't see any reason why the seals could not be installed reversed. Jon On 4/10/2017 3:11 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > just be careful you don't damage the seal seat ( bore) or future > seals may leak. > You could try threading an over sized bolt in to it & pulling on the > bolt with a hammer. Maybe hit the bolt in to get it started. > You could also heat the housing around the bore first. > There is a plethora of tools if you google on image search; but > these are on the small size. > I have said before that there is a use to the outer seal as a "dust > cover" function to keep muck away from the more important inner seal. > A cheap protective seal that is easy to replace! > Alan > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 23:03:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 20:03:10 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals Message-ID: <20170410200310.34135FB5@m0087793.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 23:05:54 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:05:54 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> <9bc585f8-0add-dfe4-b540-99cabd208452@psubs.org> Message-ID: Sounds like a viable plan, Rick. Jon On 4/10/2017 10:36 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > > This thread came up a while ago and someone mentioned packing the void > between the 0 rings with something like grease. I haven't looked > closely at the 3 I bought when you got yours but I plan on packing the > void with silicone grease which sounded like a good idea. It > lubricates and also fills up an air cavity? > > Rick From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 23:09:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:09:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <20170410200310.34135FB5@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20170410200310.34135FB5@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: <8dab7525-1742-d1a9-fc55-fae6aef7b7d6@psubs.org> Mine was already packed by the factory in such a fashion. White grease. Jon On 4/10/2017 11:03 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Why not just fill the gap with grease ? > Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 10 23:13:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 03:13:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> <9bc585f8-0add-dfe4-b540-99cabd208452@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1793335264.313533.1491880422544@mail.yahoo.com> I am not sure why there is an?interest in keeping both seals, to my mind the outer seal is dead weight. ?Unless you do as Sean says, to compensate the space between seals, the outer seal is useless. ?Having two opposite seals is guaranteeing to trap water without Sean's solution. ?The proof is in the submersible pumps that operate deeper than our subs. ?Just my two cents ;-)Hank On Monday, April 10, 2017 9:06 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sounds like a viable plan, Rick. Jon On 4/10/2017 10:36 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > > This thread came up a while ago and someone mentioned packing the void > between the 0 rings with something like grease. I haven't looked > closely at the 3 I bought when you got yours but I plan on packing the > void with silicone grease which sounded like a good idea. It > lubricates and also fills up an air cavity? > > Rick _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 07:41:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 11:41:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <1793335264.313533.1491880422544@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> <9bc585f8-0add-dfe4-b540-99cabd208452@psubs.org> <1793335264.313533.1491880422544@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1543935373.638399.1491910898552@mail.yahoo.com> Alec's idea of simply drilling a small hole through the outer seal effectively eliminates it, if I understand the concept correctly. ?It also eliminates the need to take the motor apart to remove and replace the seals/bearing. Folks, do we have a resource that could pressure test a one seal solution as installed from the factory? Jon On Monday, April 10, 2017 11:18 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am not sure why there is an?interest in keeping both seals, to my mind the outer seal is dead weight. ?Unless you do as Sean says, to compensate the space between seals, the outer seal is useless. ?Having two opposite seals is guaranteeing to trap water without Sean's solution. ?The proof is in the submersible pumps that operate deeper than our subs. ?Just my two cents ;-)Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 08:12:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:12:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <1543935373.638399.1491910898552@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> <9bc585f8-0add-dfe4-b540-99cabd208452@psubs.org> <1793335264.313533.1491880422544@mail.yahoo.com> <1543935373.638399.1491910898552@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <860489297.542221.1491912750560@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,Alec's drill solution will work for sure, but the seals still have to come out to reverse the inner seal. ?I am still?convinced it needs to be reversed.In my case the inner seal would be ruined and the outer seal can be saved, that outer seal can then become the inner seal. ?If there is concern about the seal leaking overnight weather air or oil compensated, it won't leak. ?The proof is in the fact that the inner seal in original orientation is holding air at 4 psi and water at 15 psi. ?Surely if the seal can hold air backwards then it will hold oil or water in or out. ?I do have a chamber big enough for the testing but I do not have the same motors, mine are 3.25 dia and my 50lb verticals are different than your 101'sHank On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 5:42 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec's idea of simply drilling a small hole through the outer seal effectively eliminates it, if I understand the concept correctly. ?It also eliminates the need to take the motor apart to remove and replace the seals/bearing. Folks, do we have a resource that could pressure test a one seal solution as installed from the factory? Jon On Monday, April 10, 2017 11:18 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am not sure why there is an?interest in keeping both seals, to my mind the outer seal is dead weight. ?Unless you do as Sean says, to compensate the space between seals, the outer seal is useless. ?Having two opposite seals is guaranteeing to trap water without Sean's solution. ?The proof is in the submersible pumps that operate deeper than our subs. ?Just my two cents ;-)Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 08:29:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:29:26 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <860489297.542221.1491912750560@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> <9bc585f8-0add-dfe4-b540-99cabd208452@psubs.org> <1793335264.313533.1491880422544@mail.yahoo.com> <1543935373.638399.1491910898552@mail.yahoo.com> <860489297.542221.1491912750560@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My thrusters are air compensated with the compensation pressure being adjustable and the system monitored via a differential pressure gauge in the sub. I could easily crank up the compensation pressure to test if air escapes a single unreversed seal (although I agree it makes sense to reverse it). But I don't have an easy way to test external pressure if that's what you meant. Thanks, Alec > On Apr 11, 2017, at 8:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, > Alec's drill solution will work for sure, but the seals still have to come out to reverse the inner seal. I am still convinced it needs to be reversed. > In my case the inner seal would be ruined and the outer seal can be saved, that outer seal can then become the inner seal. If there is concern about the seal leaking overnight weather air or oil compensated, it won't leak. The proof is in the fact that the inner seal in original orientation is holding air at 4 psi and water at 15 psi. Surely if the seal can hold air backwards then it will hold oil or water in or out. > I do have a chamber big enough for the testing but I do not have the same motors, mine are 3.25 dia and my 50lb verticals are different than your 101's > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 5:42 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alec's idea of simply drilling a small hole through the outer seal effectively eliminates it, if I understand the concept correctly. It also eliminates the need to take the motor apart to remove and replace the seals/bearing. > > Folks, do we have a resource that could pressure test a one seal solution as installed from the factory? > > Jon > > > > On Monday, April 10, 2017 11:18 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I am not sure why there is an interest in keeping both seals, to my mind the outer seal is dead weight. Unless you do as Sean says, to compensate the space between seals, the outer seal is useless. Having two opposite seals is guaranteeing to trap water without Sean's solution. The proof is in the submersible pumps that operate deeper than our subs. Just my two cents ;-) > Hank > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 08:27:35 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:27:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] polish In-Reply-To: <1567284374.118716.1491863840406@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1567284374.118716.1491863840406.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1567284374.118716.1491863840406@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <310897514.514756.1491913655774@mail.yahoo.com> No problem- it's? Novus # 2 From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 6:42 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] polish Hi Greg,I lost the email with the polish you mentioned. ?I would like to get the proper stuff.Thank youHank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 09:08:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:08:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> Message-ID: <112610266.566347.1491916084566@mail.yahoo.com> I like Alec's suggestion to drill a hole in the seal. In fact why don't we drill TWO holes. That way we could inject grease in one till it comes out of the other. Notice in this drawing?http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0191/7628/files/2002_AC_-_freshwater_motors_-_transom_-_specialtytransom_-_classic_28.pdf?793 That the outer seal is labeled "seal with shield".? I have not called Minn-Kota but assume that the purpose of this "shield" is to protect against fishing line wrapped around the shaft, ruining the seal and letting water in. As far as internal pressure is concerned, the set up I described using a scuba second stage would have almost none. If internal pressure is kept low then the seals can be left the way they are and forget about it. Greg C From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals What if we just drill a little hole in the outer seal, and leave it in place? Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, just be careful you don't damage the seal seat ( bore) or future seals may leak. You could try threading an over sized bolt in to it & pulling on the bolt with a hammer. Maybe hit the bolt in to get it started. You could also heat the housing around the bore first. There is a plethora of tools if you google on image search; but these are on the small size. ?I have said before that there is a use to the outer seal as a "dust cover" function to keep muck away from the more important inner seal. A cheap protective seal that is easy to replace! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 11/04/2017, at 2:32 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Ok, what's the secret here?? Poking around one of my MK101 lower units to get familiar with it and I have hacked up the outer seal trying to remove it.? I assumed these things were entirely rubber fabricated and just fit tightly into the cylinder that surrounds the shaft.? However, it looks like they are rubber over metal and press-fit into the aft section of the motor housing.? Anyone removed these things?? I can't find anything on the internet with instructions on how to remove them.? I can't just pull them out with plyers...tried that and now I'm going to have to purchase new seals.? ?:) > > Jon > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 10:19:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 14:19:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> <9bc585f8-0add-dfe4-b540-99cabd208452@psubs.org> <1793335264.313533.1491880422544@mail.yahoo.com> <1543935373.638399.1491910898552@mail.yahoo.com> <860489297.542221.1491912750560@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1952774664.789441.1491920376238@mail.yahoo.com> I don't think you need to test external pressure. ?If you maintain 4psi over ambient then all you need to test is whether 4psi is enough to blow past the single seal. ?You could keep cranking the pressure up within the motor housing to see what the cracking pressure of the seal is. ?Of course I imagine that will change over time as the shaft and elements wear on the seal. ? Jon On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 8:31 AM, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: My thrusters are air compensated with the compensation pressure being adjustable and the system monitored via a differential pressure gauge in the sub. I could easily crank up the compensation pressure to test if air escapes a single unreversed seal (although I agree it makes sense to reverse it). But I don't have an easy way to test external pressure if that's what you meant. Thanks, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 10:27:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 14:27:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <112610266.566347.1491916084566@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> <112610266.566347.1491916084566@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <903155414.733527.1491920832764@mail.yahoo.com> Greg, the MK RIPTIDE 101 doesn't have that "seal with shield". ?It simply uses two identical seals. ?My units came with the "weedless wedge" prop and I wonder if that's why they don't have the shield on the outer seal since the wedge is suppose to prevent things getting stuck around it. ?The brass bearing is also different on your unit, oval whereas it is a flange bearing on the Riptide 101. Jon On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 9:15 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Notice in this drawing?http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0191/7628/files/2002_AC_-_freshwater_motors_-_transom_-_specialtytransom_-_classic_28.pdf?793 That the outer seal is labeled "seal with shield".? I have not called Minn-Kota but assume that the purpose of this "shield" is to protect against fishing line wrapped around the shaft, ruining the seal and letting water in. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 10:58:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 14:58:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <903155414.733527.1491920832764@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> <112610266.566347.1491916084566@mail.yahoo.com> <903155414.733527.1491920832764@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1136643920.589478.1491922719910@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,I just picked that motor diagram because?it was more clear than most.?I'm just saying that?redundant seals?in trolling motors in general are probably?to prevent water ingress if?the outer?seal is damaged-?the outer seal is probably not needed for our application. Water against a single seal might be even better from a cooling standpoint. Greg From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals Greg, the MK RIPTIDE 101 doesn't have that "seal with shield". ?It simply uses two identical seals. ?My units came with the "weedless wedge" prop and I wonder if that's why they don't have the shield on the outer seal since the wedge is suppose to prevent things getting stuck around it. ?The brass bearing is also different on your unit, oval whereas it is a flange bearing on the Riptide 101. Jon On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 9:15 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Notice in this drawing?http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0191/7628/files/2002_AC_-_freshwater_motors_-_transom_-_specialtytransom_-_classic_28.pdf?793 That the outer seal is labeled "seal with shield".? I have not called Minn-Kota but assume that the purpose of this "shield" is to protect against fishing line wrapped around the shaft, ruining the seal and letting water in. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 11:55:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 03:55:08 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <903155414.733527.1491920832764@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> <112610266.566347.1491916084566@mail.yahoo.com> <903155414.733527.1491920832764@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9A51795E-928E-4D09-A931-C872DFEF4C63@yahoo.com> Why do you need to do anything with the seal? If they are both orientated so that they are keeping water out, then if you air or oil compensate them they will fail from the inside out first. First the inner seal will fail & air or oil will move in to the cavity between the seals. When the submarine ascends the overpressure in the cavity will then cause the outer seal to fail first. If you oil compensated, then if there was an air gap between the seals it would become filled with oil on the first dive that went beyond the seals rating. Then you would have equal pressure in the cavity between, & no oil leaking out on ascent. The seals are designed so that additional pressure from the fluid they are trying to seal, forces them down on the shaft. If theoretically the seal fails at 15 psi (1 atmosphere) on the fluid (seawater side) then perhaps they would fail at 7 psi on the reverse side. This means that when you dive a set up with ambient compensation it would fail from the inside at 14ft depth & either equalise the gap between the seals or at least increase the pressure differential between them. In a system that was over pressurised by 4 psi it would fail the same but earlier at 6ft. These seals need lubrication on the seal face & I don't see how the inner seal gets that. I would go with oil compensation for that purpose. With the current double seal set up at least with an oil filled motor you have some redundancy to stop oil dripping out when in storage. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 12/04/2017, at 2:27 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Greg, the MK RIPTIDE 101 doesn't have that "seal with shield". It simply uses two identical seals. My units came with the "weedless wedge" prop and I wonder if that's why they don't have the shield on the outer seal since the wedge is suppose to prevent things getting stuck around it. The brass bearing is also different on your unit, oval whereas it is a flange bearing on the Riptide 101. > > Jon > > > On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 9:15 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Notice in this drawing > http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0191/7628/files/2002_AC_-_freshwater_motors_-_transom_-_specialtytransom_-_classic_28.pdf?793 > > That the outer seal is labeled "seal with shield". I have not called Minn-Kota but assume that the purpose of this "shield" is to protect against fishing line wrapped around the shaft, ruining the seal and letting water in. > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 11:57:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 15:57:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <1136643920.589478.1491922719910@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> <112610266.566347.1491916084566@mail.yahoo.com> <903155414.733527.1491920832764@mail.yahoo.com> <1136643920.589478.1491922719910@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <406405028.820345.1491926253753@mail.yahoo.com> Sounds reasonable to me. ?I'm also thinking that if your compensation is close to ambient as it would be with a regulator setup as you have, the orientation of the seal won't much matter since it's not holding back any significant pressure on either side. Jon On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 11:05 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,I just picked that motor diagram because?it was more clear than most.?I'm just saying that?redundant seals?in trolling motors in general are probably?to prevent water ingress if?the outer?seal is damaged-?the outer seal is probably not needed for our application. Water against a single seal might be even better from a cooling standpoint. Greg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 15:15:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 15:15:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota Shaft Seals In-Reply-To: <1952774664.789441.1491920376238@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35994f9e-2308-9ae0-e562-ecb8ac1fa28a@psubs.org> <9bc585f8-0add-dfe4-b540-99cabd208452@psubs.org> <1793335264.313533.1491880422544@mail.yahoo.com> <1543935373.638399.1491910898552@mail.yahoo.com> <860489297.542221.1491912750560@mail.yahoo.com> <1952774664.789441.1491920376238@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Will do (but after the upcoming test!) If the pressure test is satisfactory, I think my plan would be to drill the outside seals, effectively eliminating them, and then when the time comes to replace the inside ones I would put the next ones in reversed. If the test is unsatisfactory, then I'd tear them all out now and go with seal reversal right away. Best, Alec On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I don't think you need to test external pressure. If you maintain 4psi > over ambient then all you need to test is whether 4psi is enough to blow > past the single seal. You could keep cranking the pressure up within the > motor housing to see what the cracking pressure of the seal is. Of course > I imagine that will change over time as the shaft and elements wear on the > seal. > > Jon > > > On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 8:31 AM, Private via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > My thrusters are air compensated with the compensation pressure being > adjustable and the system monitored via a differential pressure gauge in > the sub. I could easily crank up the compensation pressure to test if air > escapes a single unreversed seal (although I agree it makes sense to > reverse it). But I don't have an easy way to test external pressure if > that's what you meant. > > Thanks, > > Alec > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 17:49:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:49:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test References: <1005357936.976475.1491947390523.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1005357936.976475.1491947390523@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,Tell us more about your test and what you have done to change the sub. ?Pictures are nice tooHank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 18:39:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 18:39:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: <1005357936.976475.1491947390523@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1005357936.976475.1491947390523.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1005357936.976475.1491947390523@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The test is Thursday. I'll be filing a report and updating the web page for sure. Basically, I've gone to a raft format MBT for additional surfaced stability, but the rest is unchanged. TBC... > On Apr 11, 2017, at 5:49 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, > Tell us more about your test and what you have done to change the sub. Pictures are nice too > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 11 19:01:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 23:01:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: References: <1005357936.976475.1491947390523.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1005357936.976475.1491947390523@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <806580413.1026177.1491951672165@mail.yahoo.com> Good luck, I sure hope it goes well!Hank On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 4:40 PM, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The test is Thursday. I'll be filing a report and updating the web page for sure. Basically, I've gone to a raft format MBT for additional surfaced stability, but the rest is unchanged. TBC... On Apr 11, 2017, at 5:49 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Tell us more about your test and what you have done to change the sub. ?Pictures are nice tooHank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 12 10:08:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:08:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 scrubbers on eBay Message-ID: <000301d2b396$3bb6d5b0$b3248110$@gmail.com> See link below. Looks like a nifty container that could be easily adapted. I'll let you know. I have my standard setup for inside Harold when I'm solo, but this looks useful for when I have a passenger. Made an offer and got one for $140.00. Put a fan on top, design a mount, and you're in business. Brian and the good submarine boat Harold. http://www.ebay.com/itm/322479131273?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 &ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 12 10:31:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 07:31:14 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 scrubbers on eBay Message-ID: <20170412073114.340551D1@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 12 10:47:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:47:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 scrubbers on eBay Message-ID: <000001d2b39b$addd4cf0$0997e6d0$@gmail.com> Given the original cost on this part I suspect it's all high grade stainless. I can't imagine being able to make one as nice for the same money. Brian and the good submarine boat Harold. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 12 10:49:13 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:49:13 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: <20170412073114.340551D1@m0087791.ppops.net> References: <20170412073114.340551D1@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: There are loads of waste paper bins etc you can get that are very similar. https://trashcansunlimited.com/perforated-steel-bins/ or put "perforated steel tube" into ebay. http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR7.TRC1.A0.H0.Xperforated+steel+tube.TRS0&_nkw=perforated+steel+tube&_sacat=0 or there are also filters people use when growing stuff they shouldn't. https://www.hydroculture.co.uk/carbon-filters On 12 April 2017 at 15:31, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Really nice Brian ! I got the dimensions off the pic and will be > designing my scrubber off of this! Just have to find that stainless > perforated material, does anyone happen to know the holes per sq inch? > > Brian Cox > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 scrubbers on eBay > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:08:17 -0400 > > > > See link below. Looks like a nifty container that could be easily > adapted. I?ll let you know. I have my standard setup for inside Harold > when I?m solo, but this looks useful for when I have a passenger. Made an > offer and got one for $140.00. Put a fan on top, design a mount, and > you?re in business. > > > > Brian and the good submarine boat Harold. > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/322479131273?_trksid=p2057872. > m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 12 11:20:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:20:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 scrubbers on eBay Message-ID: <20170412082041.340B9521@m0087798.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 12 13:21:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:21:02 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive plans in Islamorada Message-ID: Hi everyone, Cliff and I are planning to dive our subs this summer in Islamorada, and there is a possibility Brian Hughes might join us as well with his K350 Harold. All of this made possible by the Suhr's hospitality, for which I can't be grateful enough. This is not a convention, there is no plan for presentations or meeting room events. However, if any PSUBS members are interested in joining, we would be glad to have you. I believe Snoopy will be in Pennsylvania at that time, but we should have the R300 and Shackleton at a minimum. The dates are August 1st to 3rd, with those three days being full dive days (arrival and departure on earlier/later days as necessary). We are very aware it's an awfully hot time of year, but well... this is somewhat of a masochistic pastime. No doubt we'll refine the schedule and logistics a little as the dates get closer and we have an idea what other subs and people might join us, but we just wanted to give the farthest possible advance notice to help anyone who might be making plans for the summer. If you think you can make it, please let us know. Maybe I should have waited to see if my sub actually works tomorrow, eh? Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 12 14:50:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 18:50:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive plans in Islamorada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1998867225.667114.1492023040309@mail.yahoo.com> eh? what are you a Canadian now ;-) ehHank On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:21 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi everyone, Cliff and I are planning to dive our subs this summer in Islamorada, and there is a possibility Brian Hughes might join us as well with his K350 Harold. All of this made possible by the Suhr's hospitality, for which I can't be grateful enough.? This is not a convention, there is no plan for presentations or meeting room events. However, if any PSUBS members are interested in joining, we would be glad to have you. I believe Snoopy will be in Pennsylvania at that time, but we should have the R300 and Shackleton at a minimum. The dates are August 1st to 3rd, with those three days being full dive days (arrival and departure on earlier/later days as necessary).? We are very aware it's an awfully hot time of year, but well... this is somewhat of a masochistic pastime. No doubt we'll refine the schedule and logistics a little as the dates get closer and we have an idea what other subs and people might join us, but we just wanted to give the farthest possible advance notice to help anyone who might be making plans for the summer. If you think you can make it, please let us know. Maybe I should have waited to see if my sub actually works tomorrow, eh?? Best, Alec_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 12 16:44:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:44:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive plans in Islamorada In-Reply-To: <1998867225.667114.1492023040309@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1998867225.667114.1492023040309@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alec, good luck with Shackleton's test... can't wait to hear how it goes. "Masochistic pastime" Love that! And really, it's quite true... Snoopy has certainly drawn some blood (and caused some bruises!) as I was working on her lead ballast weights last year. Speaking of Snoopy: you were right to believe she wouldn't be down in the Keys this summer, but since I mentioned that our plans have changed. We didn't make it down this spring, so she is still sitting there waiting. Since we figured we'd be going ahead with this summer excursion, she is going to wait for pick-up until then. She's in a garage and thus (somewhat) protected from corrosion. While I think we are going to be too busy with the bigger subs to dive her in this summer "sub regatta," we can pull her out if anyone wants to visit and maybe put her in the canal if time allows. Then she'll be on the train back home afterwords. Looking forward to meeting up with any / all who attend. ~ Doug On 4/12/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > eh? what are you a Canadian now ;-) ehHank > > On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:21 AM, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > Cliff and I are planning to dive our subs this summer in Islamorada, and > there is a possibility Brian Hughes might join us as well with his K350 > Harold. All of this made possible by the Suhr's hospitality, for which I > can't be grateful enough. > This is not a convention, there is no plan for presentations or meeting room > events. However, if any PSUBS members are interested in joining, we would be > glad to have you. I believe Snoopy will be in Pennsylvania at that time, but > we should have the R300 and Shackleton at a minimum. The dates are August > 1st to 3rd, with those three days being full dive days (arrival and > departure on earlier/later days as necessary). > We are very aware it's an awfully hot time of year, but well... this is > somewhat of a masochistic pastime. No doubt we'll refine the schedule and > logistics a little as the dates get closer and we have an idea what other > subs and people might join us, but we just wanted to give the farthest > possible advance notice to help anyone who might be making plans for the > summer. If you think you can make it, please let us know. > Maybe I should have waited to see if my sub actually works tomorrow, eh? > > > Best, > Alec_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 12 17:42:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 17:42:02 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay Message-ID: Those carbon filter housing for hydroponics look really good, especially for $30. I'm assuming they are the radial design. What are the recommendations on flow rate through a scrubber? Is it based on the frequency of cabin air changes? Mass removal rate at a certain concentration? Or something more complicated? ABS and the sodasorb/sofnalime datasheets leave much to be desired. On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 10:48 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Alec's test (Private via Personal_Submersibles) > 2. Re: Alec's test (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) > 3. CO2 scrubbers on eBay (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) > 4. Re: CO2 scrubbers on eBay (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) > 5. Re: CO2 scrubbers on eBay (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) > 6. Re: CO2 scrubbers on eBay > (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 18:39:46 -0400 > From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > The test is Thursday. I'll be filing a report and updating the web page > for sure. Basically, I've gone to a raft format MBT for additional surfaced > stability, but the rest is unchanged. > > TBC... > > > On Apr 11, 2017, at 5:49 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Alec, > > Tell us more about your test and what you have done to change the sub. > Pictures are nice too > > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170411/ed119e6d/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 23:01:12 +0000 (UTC) > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test > Message-ID: <806580413.1026177.1491951672165 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Good luck, I sure hope it goes well!Hank > > On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 4:40 PM, Private via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > The test is Thursday. I'll be filing a report and updating the web page > for sure. Basically, I've gone to a raft format MBT for additional surfaced > stability, but the rest is unchanged. > TBC... > On Apr 11, 2017, at 5:49 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Alec,Tell us more about your test and what you have done to change the > sub. ?Pictures are nice tooHank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170411/0105ce42/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:08:17 -0400 > From: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > To: > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 scrubbers on eBay > Message-ID: <000301d2b396$3bb6d5b0$b3248110$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > See link below. Looks like a nifty container that could be easily > adapted. I'll let you know. I have my standard setup for inside Harold > when I'm solo, but this looks useful for when I have a passenger. Made an > offer and got one for $140.00. Put a fan on top, design a mount, and > you're > in business. > > > > Brian and the good submarine boat Harold. > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/322479131273?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 > m2749.l2649&ssPageNam > e=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT> &ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170412/d42a0399/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 07:31:14 -0700 > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 scrubbers on eBay > Message-ID: <20170412073114.340551D1 at m0087791.ppops.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170412/da5ddf62/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:47:15 -0400 > From: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > To: > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 scrubbers on eBay > Message-ID: <000001d2b39b$addd4cf0$0997e6d0$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Given the original cost on this part I suspect it's all high grade > stainless. I can't imagine being able to make one as nice for the same > money. > > > > Brian and the good submarine boat Harold. > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170412/a83ea6e7/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:49:13 +0100 > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 scrubbers on eBay > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > There are loads of waste paper bins etc you can get that are very similar. > > https://trashcansunlimited.com/perforated-steel-bins/ > > or put "perforated steel tube" into ebay. > http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid= > p2050601.m570.l1313.TR7.TRC1.A0.H0.Xperforated+steel+tube. > TRS0&_nkw=perforated+steel+tube&_sacat=0 > > or there are also filters people use when growing stuff they shouldn't. > https://www.hydroculture.co.uk/carbon-filters > > > > On 12 April 2017 at 15:31, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Really nice Brian ! I got the dimensions off the pic and will be > > designing my scrubber off of this! Just have to find that stainless > > perforated material, does anyone happen to know the holes per sq inch? > > > > Brian Cox > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > org> > > To: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 scrubbers on eBay > > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:08:17 -0400 > > > > > > > > See link below. Looks like a nifty container that could be easily > > adapted. I?ll let you know. I have my standard setup for inside Harold > > when I?m solo, but this looks useful for when I have a passenger. Made > an > > offer and got one for $140.00. Put a fan on top, design a mount, and > > you?re in business. > > > > > > > > Brian and the good submarine boat Harold. > > > > > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/322479131273?_trksid=p2057872. > > m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > 40psubs.org> > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170412/13d09b31/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 46, Issue 53 > ***************************************************** > -- -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526 rdolfi7 at gmail.com rwd5301 at psu.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 12 20:04:27 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 20:04:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive plans in Islamorada In-Reply-To: <1998867225.667114.1492023040309@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1998867225.667114.1492023040309@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hehe, I put that in just for you my friend, so you would understand what I was saying. :) Alec On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 2:50 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > eh? what are you a Canadian now ;-) eh > Hank > > > On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:21 AM, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > Cliff and I are planning to dive our subs this summer in Islamorada, and > there is a possibility Brian Hughes might join us as well with his K350 > Harold. All of this made possible by the Suhr's hospitality, for which I > can't be grateful enough. > > This is not a convention, there is no plan for presentations or meeting > room events. However, if any PSUBS members are interested in joining, we > would be glad to have you. I believe Snoopy will be in Pennsylvania at that > time, but we should have the R300 and Shackleton at a minimum. The dates > are August 1st to 3rd, with those three days being full dive days (arrival > and departure on earlier/later days as necessary). > > We are very aware it's an awfully hot time of year, but well... this is > somewhat of a masochistic pastime. No doubt we'll refine the schedule and > logistics a little as the dates get closer and we have an idea what other > subs and people might join us, but we just wanted to give the farthest > possible advance notice to help anyone who might be making plans for the > summer. If you think you can make it, please let us know. > > Maybe I should have waited to see if my sub actually works tomorrow, eh? > > > > Best, > > Alec > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 15:16:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:16:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> Message-ID: <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> What are you psubbers with MK101 motors using for air compensation tubing? ?The O.D. of the MK101 shaft knob is 1.385 inches or 35.179mm. ?I'm having a hard time finding a supplier of 1.375 inch I.D. hose which should be able to fit over the shaft knob after heating and some persuation, should I decide on an air compensation for the motors. ?In lieu of finding some inexpensive tubing of this size, are there any off-the-shelf nipples of the correct thread that be threaded into the shaft knob to reduce the hose size? Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 16:37:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 08:37:57 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> Jon, when I did my sub I bought a lot of fittings & adapters from a plumbing merchant & when I couldn't find it there I went to a hydraulics repair shop. There wasn't anything they couldn't do. Most of the fittings for the ambient system were put together with thread tape. For stainless I went to .... can't remember! On Cliff's project page he has had made up a fitting with a small port in it for attachment of a smaller compensation hose. This is a tidy way of doing it but was probably expensive to get machined. You may want to do similar but just drill & tap the side of an an existing fitting & fit a small barbed elbow in it. Then pot the wires down to that point. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/04/2017, at 7:16 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > What are you psubbers with MK101 motors using for air compensation tubing? The O.D. of the MK101 shaft knob is 1.385 inches or 35.179mm. I'm having a hard time finding a supplier of 1.375 inch I.D. hose which should be able to fit over the shaft knob after heating and some persuation, should I decide on an air compensation for the motors. In lieu of finding some inexpensive tubing of this size, are there any off-the-shelf nipples of the correct thread that be threaded into the shaft knob to reduce the hose size? > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 18:57:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:57:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <535995844.29772.1492124260349@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jon, I'll need to do a search for the exact item I used but it was a slip on fitting with an o-ring inside that slid over the shaft and tightened down. It was either a plumbing repair fitting or a liquid tight electrical fitting. The other end was threaded for a regular barb fitting to attach the tubing. Any way, it was a clean looking set up and should not be hard to find. Note- the next item in the set up was a water strainer used as an electrical junction box- very helpful to have as a place to disconnect the motor for service. Greg C From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator What are you psubbers with MK101 motors using for air compensation tubing? ?The O.D. of the MK101 shaft knob is 1.385 inches or 35.179mm. ?I'm having a hard time finding a supplier of 1.375 inch I.D. hose which should be able to fit over the shaft knob after heating and some persuation, should I decide on an air compensation for the motors. ?In lieu of finding some inexpensive tubing of this size, are there any off-the-shelf nipples of the correct thread that be threaded into the shaft knob to reduce the hose size? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 19:23:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 23:23:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alan, Cliff's custom adapter is more than I want to get involved with. ?I'm thinking the simple system that Greg described, using vinyl tubing or even rubber hose for an air compensation system. ?I either need 1 3/8 tubing (reasonably priced) or need something to thread into the shaft knob (like Cliff's adapter) that will reduce the diameter to something more reasonable. ?Anyone remember what the specs are for that thread? ?Too bad it wasn't just pipe threads, that would be easy. Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 19:52:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:52:40 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller Message-ID: Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) I am going to test a Vetus 146mm propeller soon. On paper it seems a good match to my motor. I have not seen a left hand prop (which I need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a slightly smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating something similar? I was thinking they could be printed & the print used as a lost wax type aluminium casting. I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced propeller, but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 20:18:09 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 00:18:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1433310353.68699.1492129089547@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I am not as knowledgable as Greg, but if it was me, I would make a silicone mould and pour casting resin into the mould. ?I use that stuff all the time and it is real strong and I machine it no problem.Hank On Thursday, April 13, 2017 5:53 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) I am going to test a Vetus 146mm propeller soon. On paper it seems a good match to my motor. I have not seen a left hand prop (which I need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a slightly smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating something similar? I was thinking they could be printed & the print used as a lost wax type aluminium casting. I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced propeller, but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 20:21:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 00:21:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,?Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? ?if so, you can cut it down to a couple?inches long and put a waterline compression fitting on that. ? Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. ?Or you can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, providing it is the heave?fibreglass shaft.Hank On Thursday, April 13, 2017 5:23 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Cliff's custom adapter is more than I want to get involved with. ?I'm thinking the simple system that Greg described, using vinyl tubing or even rubber hose for an air compensation system. ?I either need 1 3/8 tubing (reasonably priced) or need something to thread into the shaft knob (like Cliff's adapter) that will reduce the diameter to something more reasonable. ?Anyone remember what the specs are for that thread? ?Too bad it wasn't just pipe threads, that would be easy. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 20:26:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 00:26:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <365821885.66394.1492129568227@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alan, I looked into Vetus props a long time ago and the problem was that they take HUGE amounts of amps to spin because of the pitch. Many years ago I was over at Busby's house and we were talking about subs needing?big props with low pitch and lots of torque. Franks analogy was the props you see on an ice breaker- big slow turning props to get a lot of weight moving. He also showed me pics of the just delivered soviet mir subs (classified at the time). They had really big slow turning props to get a lot of mass moving but not a lot of top speed. Kind of like 1st gear in your auto. Greg C From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 7:54 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) I am going to test a Vetus 146mm propeller soon. On paper it seems a good match to my motor. I have not seen a left hand prop (which I need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a slightly smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating something similar? I was thinking they could be printed & the print used as a lost wax type aluminium casting. I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced propeller, but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? Thanks, Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 20:32:09 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 17:32:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller Message-ID: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi Alan, it might be a bit big for you, but the smallest cheap counter rotating prop set I've found is from "Quick", they do a 4 blade 185mm in RH and LH for $40-$80 (depending on where you order them). Part numbers: BTQ185 LH (QI55507) BTQ185 RH (QI55508) http://www.quickusastore.com/bow-thrusters/spare-parts/bow-thrusters-propellers.html I got a pair and installed the on cheap ($45) trolling motors. They made a big difference over the stock props, but of would probably burn out the cheap trolling motors quickly. I didn't get around to look into reducing the diameter to better match the motors (plus I want to use better motors anyway). An SLA 3D Printer may be able to print something which could be used (after UV curing). Cheers, Ian. -----Original Message----- >From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Apr 13, 2017 4:52 PM >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller > >Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) >I am going to test a Vetus 146mm propeller soon. On paper it >seems a good match to my motor. I have not seen a left hand prop (which I >need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a slightly >smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. >Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating >something similar? I was thinking they could be printed & the print used >as a lost wax type aluminium casting. >I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced propeller, >but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. >Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? >Thanks, Alan > > >Sent from my iPad > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 20:53:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 00:53:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Hank, No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. ?A 36 inch shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so don't really want to purchase it that way. Jon On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? ?if so, you can cut it down to a couple?inches long and put a waterline compression fitting on that. ? Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. ?Or you can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, providing it is the heave?fibreglass shaft.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 21:24:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 13:24:24 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller In-Reply-To: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks Ian, Greg & Hank. Ian, I hadn't thought of that 2 propeller type bow thruster as a left hand propeller source. I will track one down & test it. I can always trim the diameter down a bit if it is in the ball park. The price isn't too bad either. If we could print our own propellers, that would be awsome. Greg, the motors I am using are rated for 50 Amps continuous & I am using a direct drive. In my calculations, I would need to go to a really low pitch prop if I went to a larger diameter, & I haven't seen anything that low. I was using a 7&1/4" 2hp Yamaha prop for testing & it only drew 33 amps. It will be a matter of pool testing a few of these props & finding a good economy of Amp draw & thrust but it is being dictated to a degree by what I can get in right & left hand. Hank, looking at these propellers again, it would be very difficult to cast them. If I made a silicone mold I'd never get the part out. It would also be difficult to get resin in to the blade area & get air out. Found out that the new motors I ordered are being used commercially on electric surf boards, so I can't be too far off track. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/04/2017, at 12:32 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > > it might be a bit big for you, but the smallest cheap counter rotating prop set > I've found is from "Quick", they do a 4 blade 185mm in RH and LH for $40-$80 (depending > on where you order them). Part numbers: > BTQ185 LH (QI55507) > BTQ185 RH (QI55508) > > http://www.quickusastore.com/bow-thrusters/spare-parts/bow-thrusters-propellers.html > > I got a pair and installed the on cheap ($45) trolling motors. They made a big difference over the stock props, but of would probably burn out the cheap trolling motors quickly. I didn't get around to look into reducing the diameter to better match the motors (plus I want to use better motors anyway). > > An SLA 3D Printer may be able to print something which could be used (after UV curing). > > Cheers, > Ian. > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Apr 13, 2017 4:52 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller >> >> Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) >> I am going to test a Vetus 146mm propeller soon. On paper it >> seems a good match to my motor. I have not seen a left hand prop (which I >> need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a slightly >> smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. >> Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating >> something similar? I was thinking they could be printed & the print used >> as a lost wax type aluminium casting. >> I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced propeller, >> but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. >> Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? >> Thanks, Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 21:32:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 13:32:58 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> Jon, an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Hank, > > No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. A 36 inch shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so don't really want to purchase it that way. > > Jon > > > On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Jon, > Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? if so, you can cut it down to a couple inches long and put a waterline compression fitting on that. Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. Or you can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, providing it is the heave fibreglass shaft. > Hank > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 22:10:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 02:10:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Jon,an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thrusterin to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something?compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option willfit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions.Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. ?A 36 inch shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so don't really want to purchase it that way. Jon On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? ?if so, you can cut it down to a couple?inches long and put a waterline compression fitting on that. ? Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. ?Or you can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, providing it is the heave?fibreglass shaft.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 22:17:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 02:17:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <535995844.29772.1492124260349@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <535995844.29772.1492124260349@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2146778501.122479.1492136250679@mail.yahoo.com> It was a fitting?similar to?this: 1-1/4" PVC Compression Male Adapter | U.S. Plastic Corp. | | | 1-1/4" PVC Compression Male Adapter | U.S. Plastic Corp. | | | From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Hi Jon, I'll need to do a search for the exact item I used but it was a slip on fitting with an o-ring inside that slid over the shaft and tightened down. It was either a plumbing repair fitting or a liquid tight electrical fitting. The other end was threaded for a regular barb fitting to attach the tubing. Any way, it was a clean looking set up and should not be hard to find. Note- the next item in the set up was a water strainer used as an electrical junction box- very helpful to have as a place to disconnect the motor for service. Greg C From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator What are you psubbers with MK101 motors using for air compensation tubing? ?The O.D. of the MK101 shaft knob is 1.385 inches or 35.179mm. ?I'm having a hard time finding a supplier of 1.375 inch I.D. hose which should be able to fit over the shaft knob after heating and some persuation, should I decide on an air compensation for the motors. ?In lieu of finding some inexpensive tubing of this size, are there any off-the-shelf nipples of the correct thread that be threaded into the shaft knob to reduce the hose size? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 22:44:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:44:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Greg, Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to resolve. The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive. After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to modify the plumbing. Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Jon, > an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster > in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something > compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will > fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Hank, > > No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. A 36 inch > shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so > don't really want to purchase it that way. > > Jon > > > On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Jon, > Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? if so, you can > cut it down to a couple inches long and put a waterline compression fitting > on that. Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. Or you can thread > the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, > providing it is the heave fibreglass shaft. > Hank > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 22:53:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 02:53:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll iron out the minor venting issue. Greg From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test Hi Greg, Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to resolve.? The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive.? After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to modify the plumbing.? Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Jon,an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thrusterin to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something?compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option willfit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions.Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head.? A 36 inch shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so don't really want to purchase it that way. Jon On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? ?if so, you can cut it down to a couple?inches long and put a waterline compression fitting on that. ? Then reduce from the compression pipe thread.? Or you can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, providing it is the heave?fibreglass shaft.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 13 23:24:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 03:24:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> Congratulations Alec,How deep did you dive? Are you busy selecting a sound track for the video?I am wondering if you were turning toward the tunnel thruster because thrust canpush out to the side without the restraint of a kort nozzle! ?? I have done a preliminary drawing for a solenoid operated ballast valvebased on the top hat design that Vance gave out in Islamorada. With it beingelectrically operated you could control it with a gyro sensor using a boardthat controls quad copters. That way at the flick of a switch you woulddescend?horizontally. (in theory).Did you use the new lights?Cheers Alan From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll iron out the minor venting issue. Greg From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test Hi Greg, Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to resolve.? The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive.? After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to modify the plumbing.? Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Jon,an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thrusterin to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something?compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option willfit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions.Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head.? A 36 inch shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so don't really want to purchase it that way. Jon On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? ?if so, you can cut it down to a couple?inches long and put a waterline compression fitting on that. ? Then reduce from the compression pipe thread.? Or you can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, providing it is the heave?fibreglass shaft.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 05:35:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:35:57 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller In-Reply-To: References: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <013801d2b502$85298ae0$8f7ca0a0$@nl> Alan, The propellor from my rimdrive thruster is 3D printed in ABS. Seems strong enough. Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 14 april 2017 3:24 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller Thanks Ian, Greg & Hank. Ian, I hadn't thought of that 2 propeller type bow thruster as a left hand propeller source. I will track one down & test it. I can always trim the diameter down a bit if it is in the ball park. The price isn't too bad either. If we could print our own propellers, that would be awsome. Greg, the motors I am using are rated for 50 Amps continuous & I am using a direct drive. In my calculations, I would need to go to a really low pitch prop if I went to a larger diameter, & I haven't seen anything that low. I was using a 7&1/4" 2hp Yamaha prop for testing & it only drew 33 amps. It will be a matter of pool testing a few of these props & finding a good economy of Amp draw & thrust but it is being dictated to a degree by what I can get in right & left hand. Hank, looking at these propellers again, it would be very difficult to cast them. If I made a silicone mold I'd never get the part out. It would also be difficult to get resin in to the blade area & get air out. Found out that the new motors I ordered are being used commercially on electric surf boards, so I can't be too far off track. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/04/2017, at 12:32 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > > it might be a bit big for you, but the smallest cheap counter rotating > prop set I've found is from "Quick", they do a 4 blade 185mm in RH and > LH for $40-$80 (depending on where you order them). Part numbers: > BTQ185 LH (QI55507) > BTQ185 RH (QI55508) > > http://www.quickusastore.com/bow-thrusters/spare-parts/bow-thrusters-p > ropellers.html > > I got a pair and installed the on cheap ($45) trolling motors. They made a big difference over the stock props, but of would probably burn out the cheap trolling motors quickly. I didn't get around to look into reducing the diameter to better match the motors (plus I want to use better motors anyway). > > An SLA 3D Printer may be able to print something which could be used (after UV curing). > > Cheers, > Ian. > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> >> Sent: Apr 13, 2017 4:52 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller >> >> Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) I am going to test a Vetus >> 146mm propeller soon. On paper it seems a good match to my motor. I >> have not seen a left hand prop (which I >> need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a >> slightly smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. >> Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating something similar? >> I was thinking they could be printed & the print used as a lost wax >> type aluminium casting. >> I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced >> propeller, but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. >> Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? >> Thanks, Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 05:44:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 09:44:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1776205142.250906.1492163099224@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alec,Congratulations !! ?your issues are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. ?The problem with the venting is?suspicious to me. ?If the vent tubes do not have water in them, they should still vent air, even if they are below the water line because the weight of the sub is creating?pressure inside the tank witch will force the air down hill so to speak. ?I was not there to see it of coarse, so I could be out to lunch. ?From what you describe, changing the lines may not do it, I think you will need individual valves, not per tank but per side. ?I had a similar problem with Gamma, but in reverse. ?When I surfaced the sub would list to one ?side badly because I have a common vent for the front and back. ?Ideally you want front and back and side to side. ?I corrected this by putting extension tubes on the bottom of the ballast tank vents, this forces the water level to self balance because one tank will ?not vent air out the bottom until the sub is level.It sounds to me like you have a similar situation. If you have the ability to control venting from side to side, you will also avoid the problem I had, and I suspect may still show up. ?Your big tall CT could create this effect while transitioning. Hank On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:45 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Greg, Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to resolve.? The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive.? After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to modify the plumbing.? Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Jon,an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thrusterin to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something?compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option willfit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions.Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head.? A 36 inch shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so don't really want to purchase it that way. Jon On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? ?if so, you can cut it down to a couple?inches long and put a waterline compression fitting on that. ? Then reduce from the compression pipe thread.? Or you can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, providing it is the heave?fibreglass shaft.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 06:40:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:40:32 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller In-Reply-To: <013801d2b502$85298ae0$8f7ca0a0$@nl> References: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <013801d2b502$85298ae0$8f7ca0a0$@nl> Message-ID: Thanks Emile, I am having trouble buying the left hand prop Ian suggested. Several American sites I tried to buy off weren't geared up to sell overseas. ( "You are loosing revenue Donald Trump") Even if I get it there is no guarantee it will be compatible with my motors. Printing may be the ace up my sleeve. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/04/2017, at 9:35 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > The propellor from my rimdrive thruster is 3D printed in ABS. > Seems strong enough. > > Emile > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: vrijdag 14 april 2017 3:24 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller > > Thanks Ian, Greg & Hank. > Ian, I hadn't thought of that 2 propeller type bow thruster as a left hand > propeller source. I will track one down & test it. I can always trim the > diameter down a bit if it is in the ball park. The price isn't too bad > either. If we could print our own propellers, that would be awsome. > Greg, the motors I am using are rated for 50 Amps continuous & I am using > a direct drive. In my calculations, I would need to go to a really low pitch > prop if I went to a larger diameter, & I haven't seen anything that low. I > was using a 7&1/4" 2hp Yamaha prop for testing & it only drew 33 amps. It > will be a matter of pool testing a few of these props & finding a good > economy of Amp draw & thrust but it is being dictated to a degree by what I > can get in right & left hand. > Hank, looking at these propellers again, it would be very difficult to > cast them. > If I made a silicone mold I'd never get the part out. It would also be > difficult to get resin in to the blade area & get air out. > Found out that the new motors I ordered are being used commercially on > electric surf boards, so I can't be too far off track. > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >>> On 14/04/2017, at 12:32 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> it might be a bit big for you, but the smallest cheap counter rotating >> prop set I've found is from "Quick", they do a 4 blade 185mm in RH and >> LH for $40-$80 (depending on where you order them). Part numbers: >> BTQ185 LH (QI55507) >> BTQ185 RH (QI55508) >> >> http://www.quickusastore.com/bow-thrusters/spare-parts/bow-thrusters-p >> ropellers.html >> >> I got a pair and installed the on cheap ($45) trolling motors. They made > a big difference over the stock props, but of would probably burn out the > cheap trolling motors quickly. I didn't get around to look into reducing > the diameter to better match the motors (plus I want to use better motors > anyway). >> >> An SLA 3D Printer may be able to print something which could be used > (after UV curing). >> >> Cheers, >> Ian. >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> >>> Sent: Apr 13, 2017 4:52 PM >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller >>> >>> Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) I am going to test a Vetus >>> 146mm propeller soon. On paper it seems a good match to my motor. I >>> have not seen a left hand prop (which I >>> need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a >>> slightly smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. >>> Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating something similar? >>> I was thinking they could be printed & the print used as a lost wax >>> type aluminium casting. >>> I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced >>> propeller, but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. >>> Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? >>> Thanks, Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 07:08:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 23:08:26 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller In-Reply-To: <013801d2b502$85298ae0$8f7ca0a0$@nl> References: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <013801d2b502$85298ae0$8f7ca0a0$@nl> Message-ID: <796F4193-0801-44BA-B7B3-BE88B568A809@yahoo.com> Just looked at a video where they tested printed props on a 15hp Yamaha. ABS failed but polycarbonate worked! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=scUEEQyC0GI These people are in my town, so this may be a viable option as my thrusters are only 2.5 hp Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/04/2017, at 9:35 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > The propellor from my rimdrive thruster is 3D printed in ABS. > Seems strong enough. > > Emile > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: vrijdag 14 april 2017 3:24 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller > > Thanks Ian, Greg & Hank. > Ian, I hadn't thought of that 2 propeller type bow thruster as a left hand > propeller source. I will track one down & test it. I can always trim the > diameter down a bit if it is in the ball park. The price isn't too bad > either. If we could print our own propellers, that would be awsome. > Greg, the motors I am using are rated for 50 Amps continuous & I am using > a direct drive. In my calculations, I would need to go to a really low pitch > prop if I went to a larger diameter, & I haven't seen anything that low. I > was using a 7&1/4" 2hp Yamaha prop for testing & it only drew 33 amps. It > will be a matter of pool testing a few of these props & finding a good > economy of Amp draw & thrust but it is being dictated to a degree by what I > can get in right & left hand. > Hank, looking at these propellers again, it would be very difficult to > cast them. > If I made a silicone mold I'd never get the part out. It would also be > difficult to get resin in to the blade area & get air out. > Found out that the new motors I ordered are being used commercially on > electric surf boards, so I can't be too far off track. > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >>> On 14/04/2017, at 12:32 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> it might be a bit big for you, but the smallest cheap counter rotating >> prop set I've found is from "Quick", they do a 4 blade 185mm in RH and >> LH for $40-$80 (depending on where you order them). Part numbers: >> BTQ185 LH (QI55507) >> BTQ185 RH (QI55508) >> >> http://www.quickusastore.com/bow-thrusters/spare-parts/bow-thrusters-p >> ropellers.html >> >> I got a pair and installed the on cheap ($45) trolling motors. They made > a big difference over the stock props, but of would probably burn out the > cheap trolling motors quickly. I didn't get around to look into reducing > the diameter to better match the motors (plus I want to use better motors > anyway). >> >> An SLA 3D Printer may be able to print something which could be used > (after UV curing). >> >> Cheers, >> Ian. >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> >>> Sent: Apr 13, 2017 4:52 PM >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller >>> >>> Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) I am going to test a Vetus >>> 146mm propeller soon. On paper it seems a good match to my motor. I >>> have not seen a left hand prop (which I >>> need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a >>> slightly smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. >>> Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating something similar? >>> I was thinking they could be printed & the print used as a lost wax >>> type aluminium casting. >>> I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced >>> propeller, but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. >>> Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? >>> Thanks, Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 08:41:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 08:41:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh I'm not celebrating yet - the sub hasn't made any dives! I was just puttering around on the surface and only submerged in shallow water where there were still six inches of the CT showing when I reached the bottom. It might have been possible to dive, but I'd rather try it once the water-blocking issue in the plumbing is addressed. On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Congratulations Alec, > How deep did you dive? Are you busy selecting a sound track for the video? > I am wondering if you were turning toward the tunnel thruster because > thrust can > push out to the side without the restraint of a kort nozzle! > I have done a preliminary drawing for a solenoid operated ballast valve > based on the top hat design that Vance gave out in Islamorada. With it > being > electrically operated you could control it with a gyro sensor using a board > that controls quad copters. That way at the flick of a switch you would > descend horizontally. (in theory). > Did you use the new lights? > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, April 14, 2017 2:58 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test > > That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll iron > out the minor venting issue. > > Greg > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test > > Hi Greg, > > Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to > resolve. > > The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced > stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck > without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the > stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was > lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat > with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and > the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked > beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive. > > After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a > measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly > faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one > of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, > to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop > was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the > kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. > > Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow > dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and > I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I > didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading > edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. > The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the > opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was > just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. > > And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of > aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and > gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As > some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs > side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you > start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster > than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the > water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube > connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. > This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the > initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of > this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to > fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that > are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of > list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to > modify the plumbing. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Jon, > an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster > in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something > compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will > fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi Hank, > > No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. A 36 inch > shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so > don't really want to purchase it that way. > > Jon > > > On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Jon, > Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? if so, you can > cut it down to a couple inches long and put a waterline compression fitting > on that. Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. Or you can thread > the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, > providing it is the heave fibreglass shaft. > Hank > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 08:42:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 07:42:04 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller In-Reply-To: <013801d2b502$85298ae0$8f7ca0a0$@nl> References: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <013801d2b502$85298ae0$8f7ca0a0$@nl> Message-ID: Emile, I am interested in the work you did on 3D printing of a thruster prop using ABS. Can give us more detail? Did you use an online service to print the prop? What was the cost? Did you work off a 3-D model file like a STEP file? What was the surface finish? What incremental steps did you have to make (surface finish, machinating...) before mounting? Did you explore any other materials than ABS? How well has the prop held up? How well do you think the ABS will handle UV? Best Regards Cliff On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 4:35 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alan, > > The propellor from my rimdrive thruster is 3D printed in ABS. > Seems strong enough. > > Emile > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org > ] > Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: vrijdag 14 april 2017 3:24 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller > > Thanks Ian, Greg & Hank. > Ian, I hadn't thought of that 2 propeller type bow thruster as a left hand > propeller source. I will track one down & test it. I can always trim the > diameter down a bit if it is in the ball park. The price isn't too bad > either. If we could print our own propellers, that would be awsome. > Greg, the motors I am using are rated for 50 Amps continuous & I am > using > a direct drive. In my calculations, I would need to go to a really low > pitch > prop if I went to a larger diameter, & I haven't seen anything that low. I > was using a 7&1/4" 2hp Yamaha prop for testing & it only drew 33 amps. It > will be a matter of pool testing a few of these props & finding a good > economy of Amp draw & thrust but it is being dictated to a degree by what I > can get in right & left hand. > Hank, looking at these propellers again, it would be very difficult to > cast them. > If I made a silicone mold I'd never get the part out. It would also be > difficult to get resin in to the blade area & get air out. > Found out that the new motors I ordered are being used commercially on > electric surf boards, so I can't be too far off track. > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 14/04/2017, at 12:32 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > it might be a bit big for you, but the smallest cheap counter rotating > > prop set I've found is from "Quick", they do a 4 blade 185mm in RH and > > LH for $40-$80 (depending on where you order them). Part numbers: > > BTQ185 LH (QI55507) > > BTQ185 RH (QI55508) > > > > http://www.quickusastore.com/bow-thrusters/spare-parts/bow-thrusters-p > > ropellers.html > > > > I got a pair and installed the on cheap ($45) trolling motors. They made > a big difference over the stock props, but of would probably burn out the > cheap trolling motors quickly. I didn't get around to look into reducing > the diameter to better match the motors (plus I want to use better motors > anyway). > > > > An SLA 3D Printer may be able to print something which could be used > (after UV curing). > > > > Cheers, > > Ian. > > > > -----Original Message----- > >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > >> > >> Sent: Apr 13, 2017 4:52 PM > >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller > >> > >> Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) I am going to test a Vetus > >> 146mm propeller soon. On paper it seems a good match to my motor. I > >> have not seen a left hand prop (which I > >> need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a > >> slightly smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. > >> Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating something similar? > >> I was thinking they could be printed & the print used as a lost wax > >> type aluminium casting. > >> I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced > >> propeller, but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. > >> Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? > >> Thanks, Alan > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 09:00:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 08:00:03 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller In-Reply-To: <796F4193-0801-44BA-B7B3-BE88B568A809@yahoo.com> References: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <013801d2b502$85298ae0$8f7ca0a0$@nl> <796F4193-0801-44BA-B7B3-BE88B568A809@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, this is an excellent video. With our thrusters only dealing with 1-3 hp, loading will be a fraction of what it is with the props shown. I am interested in printing a prop that came out of the research my students did on the variable pitch prop that matched the kort nozzle I use. Thanks for posting this. cliff On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Just looked at a video where they tested printed props on a > 15hp Yamaha. ABS failed but polycarbonate worked! > https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=scUEEQyC0GI > These people are in my town, so this may be a viable option as > my thrusters are only 2.5 hp > Alan > Sent from my iPad > > > On 14/04/2017, at 9:35 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Alan, > > > > The propellor from my rimdrive thruster is 3D printed in ABS. > > Seems strong enough. > > > > Emile > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] > > Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > Verzonden: vrijdag 14 april 2017 3:24 > > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller > > > > Thanks Ian, Greg & Hank. > > Ian, I hadn't thought of that 2 propeller type bow thruster as a left > hand > > propeller source. I will track one down & test it. I can always trim the > > diameter down a bit if it is in the ball park. The price isn't too bad > > either. If we could print our own propellers, that would be awsome. > > Greg, the motors I am using are rated for 50 Amps continuous & I am > using > > a direct drive. In my calculations, I would need to go to a really low > pitch > > prop if I went to a larger diameter, & I haven't seen anything that low. > I > > was using a 7&1/4" 2hp Yamaha prop for testing & it only drew 33 amps. It > > will be a matter of pool testing a few of these props & finding a good > > economy of Amp draw & thrust but it is being dictated to a degree by > what I > > can get in right & left hand. > > Hank, looking at these propellers again, it would be very difficult to > > cast them. > > If I made a silicone mold I'd never get the part out. It would also be > > difficult to get resin in to the blade area & get air out. > > Found out that the new motors I ordered are being used commercially on > > electric surf boards, so I can't be too far off track. > > Cheers Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >>> On 14/04/2017, at 12:32 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hi Alan, > >> > >> it might be a bit big for you, but the smallest cheap counter rotating > >> prop set I've found is from "Quick", they do a 4 blade 185mm in RH and > >> LH for $40-$80 (depending on where you order them). Part numbers: > >> BTQ185 LH (QI55507) > >> BTQ185 RH (QI55508) > >> > >> http://www.quickusastore.com/bow-thrusters/spare-parts/bow-thrusters-p > >> ropellers.html > >> > >> I got a pair and installed the on cheap ($45) trolling motors. They > made > > a big difference over the stock props, but of would probably burn out the > > cheap trolling motors quickly. I didn't get around to look into reducing > > the diameter to better match the motors (plus I want to use better motors > > anyway). > >> > >> An SLA 3D Printer may be able to print something which could be used > > (after UV curing). > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Ian. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > >>> > >>> Sent: Apr 13, 2017 4:52 PM > >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller > >>> > >>> Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) I am going to test a Vetus > >>> 146mm propeller soon. On paper it seems a good match to my motor. I > >>> have not seen a left hand prop (which I > >>> need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a > >>> slightly smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. > >>> Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating something similar? > >>> I was thinking they could be printed & the print used as a lost wax > >>> type aluminium casting. > >>> I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced > >>> propeller, but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. > >>> Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? > >>> Thanks, Alan > >>> > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPad > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 09:08:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:08:39 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller In-Reply-To: References: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <013801d2b502$85298ae0$8f7ca0a0$@nl> Message-ID: <017f01d2b520$3bd4abe0$b37e03a0$@nl> Cliff, Not only my work. I use a online 3 D print shop like . https://i.materialise.com You can even choose titanium! The 170 mm , 6 blade prop cost abt.? 350,- No idea about the stepover but surface finish is good enough. I spray painted the prop; that will work against UV. It was for several months in the water and even that proved no pb. Br, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 14 april 2017 14:42 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller Emile, I am interested in the work you did on 3D printing of a thruster prop using ABS. Can give us more detail? Did you use an online service to print the prop? What was the cost? Did you work off a 3-D model file like a STEP file? What was the surface finish? What incremental steps did you have to make (surface finish, machinating...) before mounting? Did you explore any other materials than ABS? How well has the prop held up? How well do you think the ABS will handle UV? Best Regards Cliff On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 4:35 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, The propellor from my rimdrive thruster is 3D printed in ABS. Seems strong enough. Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 14 april 2017 3:24 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller Thanks Ian, Greg & Hank. Ian, I hadn't thought of that 2 propeller type bow thruster as a left hand propeller source. I will track one down & test it. I can always trim the diameter down a bit if it is in the ball park. The price isn't too bad either. If we could print our own propellers, that would be awsome. Greg, the motors I am using are rated for 50 Amps continuous & I am using a direct drive. In my calculations, I would need to go to a really low pitch prop if I went to a larger diameter, & I haven't seen anything that low. I was using a 7&1/4" 2hp Yamaha prop for testing & it only drew 33 amps. It will be a matter of pool testing a few of these props & finding a good economy of Amp draw & thrust but it is being dictated to a degree by what I can get in right & left hand. Hank, looking at these propellers again, it would be very difficult to cast them. If I made a silicone mold I'd never get the part out. It would also be difficult to get resin in to the blade area & get air out. Found out that the new motors I ordered are being used commercially on electric surf boards, so I can't be too far off track. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/04/2017, at 12:32 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > > it might be a bit big for you, but the smallest cheap counter rotating > prop set I've found is from "Quick", they do a 4 blade 185mm in RH and > LH for $40-$80 (depending on where you order them). Part numbers: > BTQ185 LH (QI55507) > BTQ185 RH (QI55508) > > http://www.quickusastore.com/bow-thrusters/spare-parts/bow-thrusters-p > ropellers.html > > I got a pair and installed the on cheap ($45) trolling motors. They made a big difference over the stock props, but of would probably burn out the cheap trolling motors quickly. I didn't get around to look into reducing the diameter to better match the motors (plus I want to use better motors anyway). > > An SLA 3D Printer may be able to print something which could be used (after UV curing). > > Cheers, > Ian. > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> >> Sent: Apr 13, 2017 4:52 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller >> >> Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) I am going to test a Vetus >> 146mm propeller soon. On paper it seems a good match to my motor. I >> have not seen a left hand prop (which I >> need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a >> slightly smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. >> Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating something similar? >> I was thinking they could be printed & the print used as a lost wax >> type aluminium casting. >> I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced >> propeller, but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. >> Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? >> Thanks, Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 09:20:34 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 08:20:34 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alec, thanks for posting the trip report on Shackleton. I was interested in the testing you did on your printed Kort nozzle. From the testing we did on the MK-101 variable pitch prop project, we found a pretty large variation in performance of different props with and without the nozzle for these MD-101 motors. Just because you have a nozzle it does not guarantee better thrust. As example, if you look at test results below, the 4" pitch open water prop that ships with the MK-101, the MKP-33 with out the nozzle generated 82 lbs of bollard thrust but when installed in the nozzle, the thrust drops off to 71 lbs. This is not always the case. Using the 5" after market Kipawa 80/01 prop when tested without the nozzle, the thrust was 80 lbs but with the nozzle it jumped to 90 lbs. To me one of the big issues seems to be the tip shape. To get good performance you have to minimize leakage of pressure from the high pressure side of the blade to the low pressure side around the tip. This is why all props on thrusters with nozzles have tips that are square off rather than rounded with a small gap between the blade and the nozzle. I don't know the prop you were using but my guess is that it was an open water prop with rounded tip. Can you send a picture from the stern showing the prop in your printed nozzle? [image: Inline image 1] [image: Inline image 2] On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Oh I'm not celebrating yet - the sub hasn't made any dives! I was just > puttering around on the surface and only submerged in shallow water where > there were still six inches of the CT showing when I reached the bottom. It > might have been possible to dive, but I'd rather try it once the > water-blocking issue in the plumbing is addressed. > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Congratulations Alec, >> How deep did you dive? Are you busy selecting a sound track for the video? >> I am wondering if you were turning toward the tunnel thruster because >> thrust can >> push out to the side without the restraint of a kort nozzle! >> I have done a preliminary drawing for a solenoid operated ballast valve >> based on the top hat design that Vance gave out in Islamorada. With it >> being >> electrically operated you could control it with a gyro sensor using a >> board >> that controls quad copters. That way at the flick of a switch you would >> descend horizontally. (in theory). >> Did you use the new lights? >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Friday, April 14, 2017 2:58 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test >> >> That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll iron >> out the minor venting issue. >> >> Greg >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to >> resolve. >> >> The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced >> stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck >> without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the >> stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was >> lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat >> with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and >> the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked >> beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive. >> >> After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a >> measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly >> faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one >> of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, >> to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop >> was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the >> kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. >> >> Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow >> dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and >> I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I >> didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading >> edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. >> The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the >> opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was >> just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. >> >> And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of >> aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and >> gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As >> some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs >> side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you >> start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster >> than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the >> water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube >> connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. >> This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the >> initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of >> this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to >> fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that >> are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of >> list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to >> modify the plumbing. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > org > >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator >> >> Jon, >> an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster >> in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something >> compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will >> fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Hi Hank, >> >> No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. A 36 inch >> shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so >> don't really want to purchase it that way. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> > >> wrote: >> >> >> Jon, >> Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? if so, you can >> cut it down to a couple inches long and put a waterline compression fitting >> on that. Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. Or you can thread >> the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, >> providing it is the heave fibreglass shaft. >> Hank >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 91126 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 69834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 09:27:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 08:27:46 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller In-Reply-To: <017f01d2b520$3bd4abe0$b37e03a0$@nl> References: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <013801d2b502$85298ae0$8f7ca0a0$@nl> <017f01d2b520$3bd4abe0$b37e03a0$@nl> Message-ID: Excellent! Looking at the 3-D printing site, they have a number of plastics. How did you land on ABS? Did you consider polycarbonate? Was there a big cost difference between ABS and polycarbonate? Cliff On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 8:08 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > > > > Not only my work. I use a online 3 D print shop like . > https://i.materialise.com You can even choose titanium! > > The 170 mm , 6 blade prop cost abt.? 350,- > > No idea about the stepover but surface finish is good enough. I spray > painted the prop; that will work against UV. It was for several months in > the water and even that proved no pb. > > > > Br, Emile > > > > > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > *Verzonden:* vrijdag 14 april 2017 14:42 > *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Onderwerp:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller > > > > Emile, I am interested in the work you did on 3D printing of a thruster > prop using ABS. Can give us more detail? Did you use an online service to > print the prop? What was the cost? Did you work off a 3-D model file like > a STEP file? What was the surface finish? What incremental steps did you > have to make (surface finish, machinating...) before mounting? Did you > explore any other materials than ABS? How well has the prop held up? How > well do you think the ABS will handle UV? > > > > Best Regards > > > > Cliff > > > > On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 4:35 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > > The propellor from my rimdrive thruster is 3D printed in ABS. > Seems strong enough. > > Emile > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org > ] > Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: vrijdag 14 april 2017 3:24 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller > > Thanks Ian, Greg & Hank. > Ian, I hadn't thought of that 2 propeller type bow thruster as a left hand > propeller source. I will track one down & test it. I can always trim the > diameter down a bit if it is in the ball park. The price isn't too bad > either. If we could print our own propellers, that would be awsome. > Greg, the motors I am using are rated for 50 Amps continuous & I am > using > a direct drive. In my calculations, I would need to go to a really low > pitch > prop if I went to a larger diameter, & I haven't seen anything that low. I > was using a 7&1/4" 2hp Yamaha prop for testing & it only drew 33 amps. It > will be a matter of pool testing a few of these props & finding a good > economy of Amp draw & thrust but it is being dictated to a degree by what I > can get in right & left hand. > Hank, looking at these propellers again, it would be very difficult to > cast them. > If I made a silicone mold I'd never get the part out. It would also be > difficult to get resin in to the blade area & get air out. > Found out that the new motors I ordered are being used commercially on > electric surf boards, so I can't be too far off track. > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 14/04/2017, at 12:32 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > it might be a bit big for you, but the smallest cheap counter rotating > > prop set I've found is from "Quick", they do a 4 blade 185mm in RH and > > LH for $40-$80 (depending on where you order them). Part numbers: > > BTQ185 LH (QI55507) > > BTQ185 RH (QI55508) > > > > http://www.quickusastore.com/bow-thrusters/spare-parts/bow-thrusters-p > > ropellers.html > > > > I got a pair and installed the on cheap ($45) trolling motors. They made > a big difference over the stock props, but of would probably burn out the > cheap trolling motors quickly. I didn't get around to look into reducing > the diameter to better match the motors (plus I want to use better motors > anyway). > > > > An SLA 3D Printer may be able to print something which could be used > (after UV curing). > > > > Cheers, > > Ian. > > > > -----Original Message----- > >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > >> > >> Sent: Apr 13, 2017 4:52 PM > >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller > >> > >> Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) I am going to test a Vetus > >> 146mm propeller soon. On paper it seems a good match to my motor. I > >> have not seen a left hand prop (which I > >> need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a > >> slightly smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. > >> Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating something similar? > >> I was thinking they could be printed & the print used as a lost wax > >> type aluminium casting. > >> I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced > >> propeller, but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. > >> Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? > >> Thanks, Alan > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 09:36:44 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 09:36:44 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: <1776205142.250906.1492163099224@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1776205142.250906.1492163099224@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Good points. We might be calling two different things "vents." First, the issue with the tubing on the top of the tanks that releases the air for diving... If air were all that were in those when submerging, I agree there should not be a problem if they ran "downhill" a little due to listing. However, these are small tanks and the tubes in question are only 1/2" Swagelok. I think what's going on is that the water sloshing in the tanks will occasionally reach the entrance to those tubes and get sucked in along with the air, so you end up with a water block if that water goes downhill. At the top of ball valve that all these little tubes feed into, it's nearly all air coming out while flooding tanks but it does spit out water in small quantities. Second, the openings at the bottom of the tanks. I already have downspouts on them to prevent burping. They are only 5" long, but again because the tanks are small it would take a large angle of heel to burp past them and they did seem to prevent burping just fine. However, there was one thing I was unhappy with in this area. When blowing the tanks, I'm used to stopping the blow as soon as bubbles come out the bottom of the tanks. In this case, the bubbles are appearing prematurely because some tanks get to empty while others are still blowing down. I can reach the normal flotation line by keeping the blow going, but it feels wasteful to be dumping air out of the already-empty tank to let the others finish. Maybe next time out I'll just temporarily extend the downspouts by putting short lengths of hose on them. D'you think that would help? A more sophisticated approach might be to take some video from underneath and analyze the order in which the tanks are emptying, then put orifices on their air supplies to even things out. But that's surely a refinement for later. I agree the ideal situation would be to have valving that separated the MBT into quarters, so I could control either fore-aft or port-starboard independently. Currently I'm set up fore-aft and have no way to add or remove buoyancy specifically to port or starboard. My logic in doing so was that the boat is symmetrical side to side, but that longitudinal trim was more likely to be thrown off by differences in the weight of the crew (up forward) or if diving solo by my moving between sitting up in the CT or crawling forward. When I re-plumb the tanks, however, I might actually change it to port and starboard. I have two ball valves to work with on the CT, and going to four would be a much bigger job than just re-routing tubing. It'll also be much more convenient space-wise to plumb all the tanks on one side to the ball valve on that same side. I'll just think of them as saddle tanks, which is pretty much what the raft arrangement is anyway - a "squashed" set of saddle tanks up high. I'm afraid I didn't end up taking enough photos to update the project page, or any video. Here is a downsized photo attached on which you might be able to make out the tubing above the tanks and the downspouts beneath. I'm not sure what the size limitation on attachments is, so if it doesn't make it through please advise and I'll reduce it further. Thanks, Alec On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 5:44 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Alec, > Congratulations !! your issues are pretty minor in the grand scheme of > things. The problem with the venting is suspicious to me. If the vent > tubes do not have water in them, they should still vent air, even if they > are below the water line because the weight of the sub is creating pressure > inside the tank witch will force the air down hill so to speak. I was not > there to see it of coarse, so I could be out to lunch. From what you > describe, changing the lines may not do it, I think you will need > individual valves, not per tank but per side. > I had a similar problem with Gamma, but in reverse. When I surfaced the > sub would list to one side badly because I have a common vent for the > front and back. Ideally you want front and back and side to side. I > corrected this by putting extension tubes on the bottom of the ballast tank > vents, this forces the water level to self balance because one tank will > not vent air out the bottom until the sub is level. > It sounds to me like you have a similar situation. If you have the ability > to control venting from side to side, you will also avoid the problem I > had, and I suspect may still show up. Your big tall CT could create this > effect while transitioning. > > > > Hank > > > > On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:45 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hi Greg, > > Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to > resolve. > > The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced > stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck > without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the > stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was > lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat > with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and > the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked > beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive. > > After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a > measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly > faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one > of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, > to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop > was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the > kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. > > Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow > dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and > I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I > didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading > edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. > The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the > opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was > just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. > > And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of > aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and > gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As > some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs > side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you > start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster > than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the > water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube > connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. > This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the > initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of > this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to > fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that > are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of > list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to > modify the plumbing. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Jon, > an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster > in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something > compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will > fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi Hank, > > No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. A 36 inch > shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so > don't really want to purchase it that way. > > Jon > > > On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Jon, > Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? if so, you can > cut it down to a couple inches long and put a waterline compression fitting > on that. Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. Or you can thread > the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, > providing it is the heave fibreglass shaft. > Hank > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Shackleton small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 314628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 10:01:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 10:01:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Cliff, It's the standard MK prop, turned on the lathe to fit the nozzle. Since the prop would be working a little harder to push water through a nozzle, I reduced the diameter a little in an effort to keep the current draw more or less standard. It also gives a better edge than the pointed tip would have. But even so, the results in practice were not good. Please let me know if the attached picture doesn't go through. Thanks, Alec On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, thanks for posting the trip report on Shackleton. I was interested > in the testing you did on your printed Kort nozzle. From the testing > we did on the MK-101 variable pitch prop project, we found a pretty large > variation in performance of different props with and without the nozzle for > these MD-101 motors. Just because you have a nozzle it does not guarantee > better thrust. As example, if you look at test results below, the 4" pitch > open water prop that ships with the MK-101, the MKP-33 with out the nozzle > generated 82 lbs of bollard thrust but when installed in the nozzle, the > thrust drops off to 71 lbs. This is not always the case. Using the 5" > after market Kipawa 80/01 prop when tested without the nozzle, the thrust > was 80 lbs but with the nozzle it jumped to 90 lbs. To me one of the big > issues seems to be the tip shape. To get good performance you have to > minimize leakage of pressure from the high pressure side of the blade to > the low pressure side around the tip. This is why all props on thrusters > with nozzles have tips that are square off rather than rounded with a small > gap between the blade and the nozzle. I don't know the prop you were using > but my guess is that it was an open water prop with rounded tip. Can you > send a picture from the stern showing the prop in your printed nozzle? > > [image: Inline image 1] > [image: Inline image 2] > > On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Oh I'm not celebrating yet - the sub hasn't made any dives! I was just >> puttering around on the surface and only submerged in shallow water where >> there were still six inches of the CT showing when I reached the bottom. It >> might have been possible to dive, but I'd rather try it once the >> water-blocking issue in the plumbing is addressed. >> >> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Congratulations Alec, >>> How deep did you dive? Are you busy selecting a sound track for the >>> video? >>> I am wondering if you were turning toward the tunnel thruster because >>> thrust can >>> push out to the side without the restraint of a kort nozzle! >>> I have done a preliminary drawing for a solenoid operated ballast >>> valve >>> based on the top hat design that Vance gave out in Islamorada. With it >>> being >>> electrically operated you could control it with a gyro sensor using a >>> board >>> that controls quad copters. That way at the flick of a switch you would >>> descend horizontally. (in theory). >>> Did you use the new lights? >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Friday, April 14, 2017 2:58 PM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test >>> >>> That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll iron >>> out the minor venting issue. >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to >>> resolve. >>> >>> The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced >>> stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck >>> without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the >>> stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was >>> lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat >>> with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and >>> the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked >>> beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive. >>> >>> After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a >>> measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly >>> faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one >>> of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, >>> to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop >>> was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the >>> kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. >>> >>> Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow >>> dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and >>> I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I >>> didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading >>> edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. >>> The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the >>> opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was >>> just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. >>> >>> And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of >>> aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and >>> gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As >>> some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs >>> side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you >>> start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster >>> than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the >>> water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube >>> connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. >>> This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the >>> initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of >>> this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to >>> fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that >>> are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of >>> list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to >>> modify the plumbing. >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> > >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> org > >>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator >>> >>> Jon, >>> an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster >>> in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something >>> compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will >>> fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious >>> solutions. >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> org > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Hank, >>> >>> No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. A 36 inch >>> shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so >>> don't really want to purchase it that way. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via >>> Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Jon, >>> Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? if so, you can >>> cut it down to a couple inches long and put a waterline compression fitting >>> on that. Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. Or you can thread >>> the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, >>> providing it is the heave fibreglass shaft. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 69834 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 91126 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1583.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 84453 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 10:37:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 14:37:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <562039297.319573.1492180634440@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alec, Haven't tested this but here are my thoughts and I hope Cliff will respond- It might be that a prop that is fitted closely inside a tube loses some rpm because it has no "slip". Its being forced to work harder. If the rpm drops?drops below the "sweet" speed where the prop is most effective then overall efficiency goes down. One solution may be to overdrive the voltage. For instance, a 12 volt trolling motor can be run at 18 volts without damage as long as the amp rating is not exceeded. If the amp rating is say 30, then you run the motor at 18 v but limit the rpm when your amps reach 30. The result is more rpm with less heat. If this were applied to a trolling motor inside of a kort nozzle then maybe the rpm loss would be brought back up were it should be and efficiency would return. Cliff- any thoughts on this? Greg From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test Hi Cliff, It's the standard MK prop, turned on the lathe to fit the nozzle. Since the prop would be working a little harder to push water through a nozzle, I reduced the diameter a little in an effort to keep the current draw more or less standard. It also gives a better edge than the pointed tip would have. But even so, the results in practice were not good. Please let me know if the attached picture doesn't go through. Thanks, Alec On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, thanks for posting the trip report on Shackleton.? I was interested in the testing you did on your printed Kort nozzle.? From the testing we?did on the MK-101 variable pitch prop project, we found a pretty large variation in performance of different props with and without the nozzle for these MD-101 motors.? Just because you have a nozzle it does not guarantee better thrust.? As example, if you look at test results below, the 4" pitch open water prop that ships with the MK-101, the MKP-33?with out the nozzle generated 82 lbs of bollard thrust but when installed in the nozzle, the thrust drops off to 71 lbs.? This is not always the case.? Using the 5" after market Kipawa 80/01 prop when tested without the nozzle, the thrust was 80 lbs but with the nozzle it jumped to 90 lbs.? To me one of the big issues seems to be the tip shape. To get good performance you have to minimize leakage of pressure from the high pressure side of the blade to the low pressure side around the tip.? This is why all props on thrusters with nozzles have tips that?are square off?rather than rounded with a small gap between the blade and the nozzle.? I don't know the prop you were using but my guess is that it was an open water prop with rounded tip. Can you send a picture from the stern showing the prop in your printed nozzle? On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oh I'm not celebrating yet - the sub hasn't made any dives! I was just puttering around on the surface and only submerged in shallow water where there were still six inches of the CT showing when I reached the bottom. It might have been possible to dive, but I'd rather try it once the water-blocking issue in the plumbing is addressed.? On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Congratulations Alec,How deep did you dive? Are you busy selecting a sound track for the video?I am wondering if you were turning toward the tunnel thruster because thrust canpush out to the side without the restraint of a kort nozzle! ?? I have done a preliminary drawing for a solenoid operated ballast valvebased on the top hat design that Vance gave out in Islamorada. With it beingelectrically operated you could control it with a gyro sensor using a boardthat controls quad copters. That way at the flick of a switch you woulddescend?horizontally. (in theory).Did you use the new lights?Cheers Alan From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll iron out the minor venting issue. Greg From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test Hi Greg, Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to resolve.? The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive.? After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to modify the plumbing.? Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Jon,an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thrusterin to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something?compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option willfit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions.Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head.? A 36 inch shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so don't really want to purchase it that way. Jon On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? ?if so, you can cut it down to a couple?inches long and put a waterline compression fitting on that. ? Then reduce from the compression pipe thread.? Or you can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, providing it is the heave?fibreglass shaft.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 69834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 10:38:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 14:38:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1776205142.250906.1492163099224@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1921241260.92555.1492180721161@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,The picture looks good, man that must be stable when fully surfaced! ? You?could be right about the water getting in the tubes, but you say water spits out with the air, that says to me the air is making it out. ?I think what is happening is the raft tanks have solved the problem you had when they are full of air but when you release the air it is as if they don't exist and the sub returns to normal. ?Also the platform is quite wide exacerbating the imbalance. ? I think you will need to arrange it so you can add and release air in four quadrants. ?Then she will be a dream! ?Love that shallow draft!Extending the down spouts will ?help for sure, but you may have to slow down the air feed to let it balance out. ?My down spouts are about 14 inches long and solved my problem completely. ?I would still like 4 quadrant control though.? When I tested Gamma the other day I found myself 10 feet under water on a 30 degree nose down and 15 degrees ?list hanging on so I didn't slide off the seat. ?I am a test and adjust guy, but because I have long down spouts, I surfaced with ease and the sub self corrected. ?The hydraulic tank assembly is very heavy hanging out the front corner. ?Some well placed boulders off shore corrected that. How do you find the control response with the motors pointing strait back and being so far back? ?Hank On Friday, April 14, 2017 7:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Good points. We might be calling two different things "vents." First, the issue with the tubing on the top of the tanks that releases the air for diving... If air were all that were in those when submerging, I agree there should not be a problem if they ran "downhill" a little due to listing. However, these are small tanks and the tubes in question are only 1/2" Swagelok. I think what's going on is that the water sloshing in the tanks will occasionally reach the entrance to those tubes and get sucked in along with the air, so you end up with a water block if that water goes downhill. At the top of ball valve that all these little tubes feed into, it's nearly all air coming out while flooding tanks but it does spit out water in small quantities.? Second, the openings at the bottom of the tanks. I already have downspouts on them to prevent burping. They are only 5" long, but again because the tanks are small it would take a large angle of heel to burp past them and they did seem to prevent burping just fine. However, there was one thing I was unhappy with in this area. When blowing the tanks, I'm used to stopping the blow as soon as bubbles come out the bottom of the tanks. In this case, the bubbles are appearing prematurely because some tanks get to empty while others are still blowing down. I can reach the normal flotation line by keeping the blow going, but it feels wasteful to be dumping air out of the already-empty tank to let the others finish. Maybe next time out I'll just temporarily extend the downspouts by putting short lengths of hose on them. D'you think that would help? A more sophisticated approach might be to take some video from underneath and analyze the order in which the tanks are emptying, then put orifices on their air supplies to even things out. But that's surely a refinement for later. I agree the ideal situation would be to have valving that separated the MBT into quarters, so I could control either fore-aft or port-starboard independently. Currently I'm set up fore-aft and have no way to add or remove buoyancy specifically to port or starboard. My logic in doing so was that the boat is symmetrical side to side, but that longitudinal trim was more likely to be thrown off by differences in the weight of the crew (up forward) or if diving solo by my moving between sitting up in the CT or crawling forward. When I re-plumb the tanks, however, I might actually change it to port and starboard. I have two ball valves to work with on the CT, and going to four would be a much bigger job than just re-routing tubing. It'll also be much more convenient space-wise to plumb all the tanks on one side to the ball valve on that same side. I'll just think of them as saddle tanks, which is pretty much what the raft arrangement is anyway - a "squashed" set of saddle tanks up high. I'm afraid I didn't end up taking enough photos to update the project page, or any video. Here is a downsized photo attached on which you might be able to make out the tubing above the tanks and the downspouts beneath. I'm not sure what the size limitation on attachments is, so if it doesn't make it through please advise and I'll reduce it further. Thanks, Alec ? On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 5:44 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec,Congratulations !! ?your issues are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.? The problem with the venting is?suspicious to me.? If the vent tubes do not have water in them, they should still vent air, even if they are below the water line because the weight of the sub is creating?pressure inside the tank witch will force the air down hill so to speak.? I was not there to see it of coarse, so I could be out to lunch.? From what you describe, changing the lines may not do it, I think you will need individual valves, not per tank but per side. ?I had a similar problem with Gamma, but in reverse.? When I surfaced the sub would list to one ?side badly because I have a common vent for the front and back.? Ideally you want front and back and side to side.? I corrected this by putting extension tubes on the bottom of the ballast tank vents, this forces the water level to self balance because one tank will ?not vent air out the bottom until the sub is level.It sounds to me like you have a similar situation. If you have the ability to control venting from side to side, you will also avoid the problem I had, and I suspect may still show up.? Your big tall CT could create this effect while transitioning. Hank On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:45 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Greg, Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to resolve.? The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive.? After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to modify the plumbing.? Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Jon,an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thrusterin to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something?compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option willfit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions.Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head.? A 36 inch shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so don't really want to purchase it that way. Jon On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? ?if so, you can cut it down to a couple?inches long and put a waterline compression fitting on that. ? Then reduce from the compression pipe thread.? Or you can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, providing it is the heave?fibreglass shaft.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 11:42:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 10:42:04 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alec, yes I can see the prop. What is your nozzle ID. Looks like about 10". I think it is smaller than the ID for my nozzle which is 11". Now that I can see the prop after being cut down, I don't think the issue is leakage of pressure from the high to low pressure face. It could be the reduced diameter. The thurst that a korted knozzle plus propeller makes is proportional to the rpm squared and the propeller diameter to the forth power. As James notes, the efficenty and rpm come in to play as well. It could be that you are getting a boost from the nozzle but this is being countered to a greater extend by the lost prop diameter since this parameter goes to the fourth power in the torque equation. The other issues is that the pitch of this prop is 4" . if you looked at the angle the blade makes as function of radius it is not constant, i.e., close to hub the angle is steeper than at the tip. The contribution to the thrust in the lost tip section may be non linear. I suggest you try taking a Kipawa 80/01 after market propeller http://www.kipawapropellers.com/store/p3/Kipawa_80%2F01_Three_Blade_Propeller_-_Minn_Kota_2005_and_newer_Models.html that fits the MK-101. This is a three bladed 5" pitch prop. Because your ID is smaller than mine, the blades should turn down to a nice square end but with the advantage of a higher pitch. Next time you take the boat out, I would repeat the test you did with a virgin Kipawa 80/01 and a turned down Kipawa 80/01 in the kort nozzle. Cliff PS: Shack looks great! On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 9:01 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Cliff, > > It's the standard MK prop, turned on the lathe to fit the nozzle. Since > the prop would be working a little harder to push water through a nozzle, I > reduced the diameter a little in an effort to keep the current draw more or > less standard. It also gives a better edge than the pointed tip would have. > But even so, the results in practice were not good. Please let me know if > the attached picture doesn't go through. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alec, thanks for posting the trip report on Shackleton. I was interested >> in the testing you did on your printed Kort nozzle. From the testing >> we did on the MK-101 variable pitch prop project, we found a pretty large >> variation in performance of different props with and without the nozzle for >> these MD-101 motors. Just because you have a nozzle it does not guarantee >> better thrust. As example, if you look at test results below, the 4" pitch >> open water prop that ships with the MK-101, the MKP-33 with out the nozzle >> generated 82 lbs of bollard thrust but when installed in the nozzle, the >> thrust drops off to 71 lbs. This is not always the case. Using the 5" >> after market Kipawa 80/01 prop when tested without the nozzle, the thrust >> was 80 lbs but with the nozzle it jumped to 90 lbs. To me one of the big >> issues seems to be the tip shape. To get good performance you have to >> minimize leakage of pressure from the high pressure side of the blade to >> the low pressure side around the tip. This is why all props on thrusters >> with nozzles have tips that are square off rather than rounded with a small >> gap between the blade and the nozzle. I don't know the prop you were using >> but my guess is that it was an open water prop with rounded tip. Can you >> send a picture from the stern showing the prop in your printed nozzle? >> >> [image: Inline image 1] >> [image: Inline image 2] >> >> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Oh I'm not celebrating yet - the sub hasn't made any dives! I was just >>> puttering around on the surface and only submerged in shallow water where >>> there were still six inches of the CT showing when I reached the bottom. It >>> might have been possible to dive, but I'd rather try it once the >>> water-blocking issue in the plumbing is addressed. >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Congratulations Alec, >>>> How deep did you dive? Are you busy selecting a sound track for the >>>> video? >>>> I am wondering if you were turning toward the tunnel thruster because >>>> thrust can >>>> push out to the side without the restraint of a kort nozzle! >>>> I have done a preliminary drawing for a solenoid operated ballast >>>> valve >>>> based on the top hat design that Vance gave out in Islamorada. With it >>>> being >>>> electrically operated you could control it with a gyro sensor using a >>>> board >>>> that controls quad copters. That way at the flick of a switch you would >>>> descend horizontally. (in theory). >>>> Did you use the new lights? >>>> Cheers Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *Sent:* Friday, April 14, 2017 2:58 PM >>>> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test >>>> >>>> That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll iron >>>> out the minor venting issue. >>>> >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test >>>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to >>>> resolve. >>>> >>>> The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced >>>> stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck >>>> without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the >>>> stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was >>>> lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat >>>> with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and >>>> the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked >>>> beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive. >>>> >>>> After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a >>>> measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly >>>> faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one >>>> of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, >>>> to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop >>>> was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the >>>> kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. >>>> >>>> Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the >>>> bow dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, >>>> and I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, >>>> something I didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, >>>> the leading edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a >>>> foot away. The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to >>>> have the opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe >>>> that was just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though >>>> moments before. >>>> >>>> And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection >>>> of aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and >>>> gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As >>>> some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs >>>> side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you >>>> start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster >>>> than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the >>>> water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube >>>> connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. >>>> This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the >>>> initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of >>>> this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to >>>> fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that >>>> are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of >>>> list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to >>>> modify the plumbing. >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> org > >>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> org > >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator >>>> >>>> Jon, >>>> an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the >>>> thruster >>>> in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something >>>> compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will >>>> fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious >>>> solutions. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >>> org > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Hank, >>>> >>>> No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. A 36 inch >>>> shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so >>>> don't really want to purchase it that way. >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via >>>> Personal_Submersibles >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Jon, >>>> Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? if so, you >>>> can cut it down to a couple inches long and put a waterline compression >>>> fitting on that. Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. Or you >>>> can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from >>>> that, providing it is the heave fibreglass shaft. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 69834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 11:56:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 10:56:16 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: <562039297.319573.1492180634440@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> <562039297.319573.1492180634440@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: James running the MK-101 at higher than design voltage could work. I am not a propeller expert but there here a complex interaction between pitch, rpm, impellor diameter, efficiency and slippage that makes it hard to guess on the effect of changing any one parameter. In the testing my students did, the rpm actually increased when they put the MKP-33 prop in the nozzle from 1486 to 1590 and the thrust dropped off. As to running the MK 101 at a higher voltage, the nominal voltage for this trolling motor is 36V . You would have to abandon the Minn-Kota motor controller to do this. There are many off the shelf motor controllers that would work but MK has a lot of nice protection features built into theirs for incidents such as a fowled props. The best way to look at this would be with some controlled test where you logged the thrust, motor speed and current and varied one parameters at a time. Lots of fun R&D to do and not enough time! Cliff On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 9:37 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Alec, > > Haven't tested this but here are my thoughts and I hope Cliff will respond- > > It might be that a prop that is fitted closely inside a tube loses some > rpm because it has no "slip". Its being forced to work harder. If the rpm > drops drops below the "sweet" speed where the prop is most effective then > overall efficiency goes down. > > One solution may be to overdrive the voltage. For instance, a 12 volt > trolling motor can be run at 18 volts without damage as long as the amp > rating is not exceeded. If the amp rating is say 30, then you run the motor > at 18 v but limit the rpm when your amps reach 30. > > The result is more rpm with less heat. If this were applied to a trolling > motor inside of a kort nozzle then maybe the rpm loss would be brought back > up were it should be and efficiency would return. > > Cliff- any thoughts on this? > > Greg > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, April 14, 2017 10:04 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test > > Hi Cliff, > > It's the standard MK prop, turned on the lathe to fit the nozzle. Since > the prop would be working a little harder to push water through a nozzle, I > reduced the diameter a little in an effort to keep the current draw more or > less standard. It also gives a better edge than the pointed tip would have. > But even so, the results in practice were not good. Please let me know if > the attached picture doesn't go through. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, thanks for posting the trip report on Shackleton. I was interested > in the testing you did on your printed Kort nozzle. From the testing > we did on the MK-101 variable pitch prop project, we found a pretty large > variation in performance of different props with and without the nozzle for > these MD-101 motors. Just because you have a nozzle it does not guarantee > better thrust. As example, if you look at test results below, the 4" pitch > open water prop that ships with the MK-101, the MKP-33 with out the nozzle > generated 82 lbs of bollard thrust but when installed in the nozzle, the > thrust drops off to 71 lbs. This is not always the case. Using the 5" > after market Kipawa 80/01 prop when tested without the nozzle, the thrust > was 80 lbs but with the nozzle it jumped to 90 lbs. To me one of the big > issues seems to be the tip shape. To get good performance you have to > minimize leakage of pressure from the high pressure side of the blade to > the low pressure side around the tip. This is why all props on thrusters > with nozzles have tips that are square off rather than rounded with a small > gap between the blade and the nozzle. I don't know the prop you were using > but my guess is that it was an open water prop with rounded tip. Can you > send a picture from the stern showing the prop in your printed nozzle? > > [image: Inline image 1] > [image: Inline image 2] > > On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Oh I'm not celebrating yet - the sub hasn't made any dives! I was just > puttering around on the surface and only submerged in shallow water where > there were still six inches of the CT showing when I reached the bottom. It > might have been possible to dive, but I'd rather try it once the > water-blocking issue in the plumbing is addressed. > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles rg > wrote: > > Congratulations Alec, > How deep did you dive? Are you busy selecting a sound track for the video? > I am wondering if you were turning toward the tunnel thruster because > thrust can > push out to the side without the restraint of a kort nozzle! > I have done a preliminary drawing for a solenoid operated ballast valve > based on the top hat design that Vance gave out in Islamorada. With it > being > electrically operated you could control it with a gyro sensor using a board > that controls quad copters. That way at the flick of a switch you would > descend horizontally. (in theory). > Did you use the new lights? > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles rg > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg > > *Sent:* Friday, April 14, 2017 2:58 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test > > That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll iron > out the minor venting issue. > > Greg > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles rg > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg > > *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test > > Hi Greg, > > Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to > resolve. > > The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced > stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck > without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the > stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was > lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat > with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and > the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked > beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive. > > After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a > measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly > faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one > of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, > to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop > was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the > kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. > > Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow > dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and > I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I > didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading > edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. > The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the > opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was > just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. > > And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of > aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and > gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As > some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs > side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you > start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster > than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the > water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube > connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. > This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the > initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of > this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to > fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that > are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of > list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to > modify the plumbing. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Jon, > an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster > in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something > compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will > fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi Hank, > > No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. A 36 inch > shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so > don't really want to purchase it that way. > > Jon > > > On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Jon, > Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? if so, you can > cut it down to a couple inches long and put a waterline compression fitting > on that. Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. Or you can thread > the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, > providing it is the heave fibreglass shaft. > Hank > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 69834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 13:10:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 13:10:53 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good eye! The prop is 11" originally but I cut off 1/2" off the tips since they had that was the minimum amount needed to get rid of the curly bit on the end, which would have been terrible as far as isolating the high and low pressure sides. I think you're right concerning the diameter effect. But I think at the moment I'm going to concentrate on getting the boat to work, and korts can become a future item... Thanks, Alec On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, yes I can see the prop. What is your nozzle ID. Looks like about > 10". I think it is smaller than the ID for my nozzle which is 11". Now > that I can see the prop after being cut down, I don't think the issue is > leakage of pressure from the high to low pressure face. It could be the > reduced diameter. The thurst that a korted knozzle plus propeller makes is > proportional to the rpm squared and the propeller diameter to the forth > power. As James notes, the efficenty and rpm come in to play as well. It > could be that you are getting a boost from the nozzle but this is being > countered to a greater extend by the lost prop diameter since this > parameter goes to the fourth power in the torque equation. The other > issues is that the pitch of this prop is 4" . if you looked at the angle > the blade makes as function of radius it is not constant, i.e., close to > hub the angle is steeper than at the tip. The contribution to the thrust in > the lost tip section may be non linear. I suggest you try taking a Kipawa > 80/01 after market propeller http://www.kipawapropellers. > com/store/p3/Kipawa_80%2F01_Three_Blade_Propeller_-_Minn_ > Kota_2005_and_newer_Models.html that fits the MK-101. This is a three > bladed 5" pitch prop. Because your ID is smaller than mine, the blades > should turn down to a nice square end but with the advantage of a higher > pitch. Next time you take the boat out, I would repeat the test you did > with a virgin Kipawa 80/01 and a turned down Kipawa 80/01 in the kort > nozzle. > > Cliff > > PS: Shack looks great! > > > On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 9:01 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Cliff, >> >> It's the standard MK prop, turned on the lathe to fit the nozzle. Since >> the prop would be working a little harder to push water through a nozzle, I >> reduced the diameter a little in an effort to keep the current draw more or >> less standard. It also gives a better edge than the pointed tip would have. >> But even so, the results in practice were not good. Please let me know if >> the attached picture doesn't go through. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Alec, thanks for posting the trip report on Shackleton. I was >>> interested in the testing you did on your printed Kort nozzle. From the >>> testing we did on the MK-101 variable pitch prop project, we found a pretty >>> large variation in performance of different props with and without the >>> nozzle for these MD-101 motors. Just because you have a nozzle it does not >>> guarantee better thrust. As example, if you look at test results below, >>> the 4" pitch open water prop that ships with the MK-101, the MKP-33 with >>> out the nozzle generated 82 lbs of bollard thrust but when installed in the >>> nozzle, the thrust drops off to 71 lbs. This is not always the case. >>> Using the 5" after market Kipawa 80/01 prop when tested without the nozzle, >>> the thrust was 80 lbs but with the nozzle it jumped to 90 lbs. To me one >>> of the big issues seems to be the tip shape. To get good performance you >>> have to minimize leakage of pressure from the high pressure side of the >>> blade to the low pressure side around the tip. This is why all props on >>> thrusters with nozzles have tips that are square off rather than rounded >>> with a small gap between the blade and the nozzle. I don't know the prop >>> you were using but my guess is that it was an open water prop with rounded >>> tip. Can you send a picture from the stern showing the prop in your printed >>> nozzle? >>> >>> [image: Inline image 1] >>> [image: Inline image 2] >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Oh I'm not celebrating yet - the sub hasn't made any dives! I was just >>>> puttering around on the surface and only submerged in shallow water where >>>> there were still six inches of the CT showing when I reached the bottom. It >>>> might have been possible to dive, but I'd rather try it once the >>>> water-blocking issue in the plumbing is addressed. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Congratulations Alec, >>>>> How deep did you dive? Are you busy selecting a sound track for the >>>>> video? >>>>> I am wondering if you were turning toward the tunnel thruster because >>>>> thrust can >>>>> push out to the side without the restraint of a kort nozzle! >>>>> I have done a preliminary drawing for a solenoid operated ballast >>>>> valve >>>>> based on the top hat design that Vance gave out in Islamorada. With it >>>>> being >>>>> electrically operated you could control it with a gyro sensor using a >>>>> board >>>>> that controls quad copters. That way at the flick of a switch you would >>>>> descend horizontally. (in theory). >>>>> Did you use the new lights? >>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, April 14, 2017 2:58 PM >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test >>>>> >>>>> That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll >>>>> iron out the minor venting issue. >>>>> >>>>> Greg >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test >>>>> >>>>> Hi Greg, >>>>> >>>>> Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to >>>>> resolve. >>>>> >>>>> The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the >>>>> surfaced stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of >>>>> the deck without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by >>>>> the stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was >>>>> lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat >>>>> with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and >>>>> the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked >>>>> beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive. >>>>> >>>>> After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a >>>>> measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly >>>>> faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one >>>>> of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, >>>>> to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop >>>>> was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the >>>>> kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. >>>>> >>>>> Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the >>>>> bow dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, >>>>> and I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, >>>>> something I didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, >>>>> the leading edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a >>>>> foot away. The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to >>>>> have the opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe >>>>> that was just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though >>>>> moments before. >>>>> >>>>> And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection >>>>> of aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and >>>>> gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As >>>>> some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs >>>>> side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you >>>>> start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster >>>>> than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the >>>>> water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube >>>>> connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. >>>>> This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the >>>>> initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of >>>>> this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to >>>>> fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that >>>>> are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of >>>>> list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to >>>>> modify the plumbing. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>>> org > >>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> org > >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator >>>>> >>>>> Jon, >>>>> an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the >>>>> thruster >>>>> in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something >>>>> compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will >>>>> fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious >>>>> solutions. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >>>> org > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Hank, >>>>> >>>>> No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. A 36 >>>>> inch shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it >>>>> so don't really want to purchase it that way. >>>>> >>>>> Jon >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jon, >>>>> Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? if so, you >>>>> can cut it down to a couple inches long and put a waterline compression >>>>> fitting on that. Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. Or you >>>>> can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from >>>>> that, providing it is the heave fibreglass shaft. >>>>> Hank >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 69834 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 91126 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 18:40:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:40:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1926812722.581732.1492209622337@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,have you looked at the Vetus 6 bladed prop rated for 35-55 kg thrust.https://www.vetus.com/set-spare-6-blade-prop-bow35-55.htmlThe 35kg Vetus bow thruster has a 1500W motor. The rpm is 2600,but I am not sure if this is no load rpm. If it is, it would be about thesame rpm as the Minn kota motor. The prop was designed by Marion & is designed for more of a staticload as we see in our submarines, rather than for a faster lighter boat likethe Minn kota prop is designed for. There could be some compromisein the diameter though, as they want to get the tunnel (nozzle) as small aspossible to fit in to the bow of boats. The diameter could be an issueas it relates to the larger diameter of the Minn kota motor which wouldimpede the water flow.One advantage is that it looks like it would be a lot sturdier when 3Dprinted than the 2 or 3 blade props. ( I have a collection of them now)?? Even though the printed 3D props performed on the Yamaha 15hpoutboard, their prop design was again a lot stronger than our 2 or 3 blade props.??? Have you looked at the propeller on?Graeme Hawkes Dragon submersible?I am guessing he is using high torque bike hub motors. He has designed awide central nozzle with multiple fins off that. This would make for a muchsturdier 3D printed article & avoid wasted thrust in to the body of the 101.??Testing the New DeepFlight Dragon Submersible in Lake Tahoe | | | | | | | | | | | Testing the New DeepFlight Dragon Submersible in Lake Tahoe The game-changing ?hovering? recreational sub is so easy to use, almost anyone can operate it? | | | | I am going to test the Vetus prop but have to wait about 4 weeks as I amhaving 4 new motors being made to my specs.BTW the prop shaft hole diameter in the Vetus is 13.5mm; I will be havingto make up a sleeve to test it. Would be interested to know of any moretest results.Cheers Alan From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test Alec, thanks for posting the trip report on Shackleton.? I was interested in the testing you did on your printed Kort nozzle.? From the testing we?did on the MK-101 variable pitch prop project, we found a pretty large variation in performance of different props with and without the nozzle for these MD-101 motors.? Just because you have a nozzle it does not guarantee better thrust.? As example, if you look at test results below, the 4" pitch open water prop that ships with the MK-101, the MKP-33?with out the nozzle generated 82 lbs of bollard thrust but when installed in the nozzle, the thrust drops off to 71 lbs.? This is not always the case.? Using the 5" after market Kipawa 80/01 prop when tested without the nozzle, the thrust was 80 lbs but with the nozzle it jumped to 90 lbs.? To me one of the big issues seems to be the tip shape. To get good performance you have to minimize leakage of pressure from the high pressure side of the blade to the low pressure side around the tip.? This is why all props on thrusters with nozzles have tips that?are square off?rather than rounded with a small gap between the blade and the nozzle.? I don't know the prop you were using but my guess is that it was an open water prop with rounded tip. Can you send a picture from the stern showing the prop in your printed nozzle? On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oh I'm not celebrating yet - the sub hasn't made any dives! I was just puttering around on the surface and only submerged in shallow water where there were still six inches of the CT showing when I reached the bottom. It might have been possible to dive, but I'd rather try it once the water-blocking issue in the plumbing is addressed.? On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Congratulations Alec,How deep did you dive? Are you busy selecting a sound track for the video?I am wondering if you were turning toward the tunnel thruster because thrust canpush out to the side without the restraint of a kort nozzle! ?? I have done a preliminary drawing for a solenoid operated ballast valvebased on the top hat design that Vance gave out in Islamorada. With it beingelectrically operated you could control it with a gyro sensor using a boardthat controls quad copters. That way at the flick of a switch you woulddescend?horizontally. (in theory).Did you use the new lights?Cheers Alan From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll iron out the minor venting issue. Greg From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test Hi Greg, Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to resolve.? The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive.? After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to modify the plumbing.? Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Jon,an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thrusterin to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something?compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option willfit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions.Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head.? A 36 inch shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so don't really want to purchase it that way. Jon On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? ?if so, you can cut it down to a couple?inches long and put a waterline compression fitting on that. ? Then reduce from the compression pipe thread.? Or you can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, providing it is the heave?fibreglass shaft.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 69834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 19:30:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 18:30:33 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: <1926812722.581732.1492209622337@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> <1926812722.581732.1492209622337@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This Vetus 6 bladed prop looks good but it does not match up with the MK 101 motor very well. To get this thrust from this small diameter (150mm or 5.9") they need to operated at higher rpm. The MK 101 operated under load at about 1500 rpm. IT does look like it would work well for 3-D printing. Let us know how the new thruster motors work with this prop. Which nozzle are you planning using. Cliff On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 5:40 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > have you looked at the Vetus 6 bladed prop rated for 35-55 kg thrust. > https://www.vetus.com/set-spare-6-blade-prop-bow35-55.html > The 35kg Vetus bow thruster has a 1500W motor. The rpm is 2600, > but I am not sure if this is no load rpm. If it is, it would be about the > same rpm as the Minn kota motor. > The prop was designed by Marion & is designed for more of a static > load as we see in our submarines, rather than for a faster lighter boat > like > the Minn kota prop is designed for. There could be some compromise > in the diameter though, as they want to get the tunnel (nozzle) as small as > possible to fit in to the bow of boats. The diameter could be an issue > as it relates to the larger diameter of the Minn kota motor which would > impede the water flow. > One advantage is that it looks like it would be a lot sturdier when 3D > printed than the 2 or 3 blade props. ( I have a collection of them now) > Even though the printed 3D props performed on the Yamaha 15hp > outboard, their prop design was again a lot stronger than our 2 or 3 blade > props. > Have you looked at the propeller on Graeme Hawkes Dragon submersible? > I am guessing he is using high torque bike hub motors. He has designed a > wide central nozzle with multiple fins off that. This would make for a much > sturdier 3D printed article & avoid wasted thrust in to the body of the > 101. > Testing the New DeepFlight Dragon Submersible in Lake Tahoe > > > Testing the New DeepFlight Dragon Submersible in Lake Tahoe > The game-changing ?hovering? recreational sub is so easy to use, almost > anyone can operate it? > > > > I am going to test the Vetus prop but have to wait about 4 weeks as I am > having 4 new motors being made to my specs. > BTW the prop shaft hole diameter in the Vetus is 13.5mm; I will be having > to make up a sleeve to test it. Would be interested to know of any more > test results. > Cheers Alan > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 15, 2017 1:23 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test > > Alec, thanks for posting the trip report on Shackleton. I was interested > in the testing you did on your printed Kort nozzle. From the testing > we did on the MK-101 variable pitch prop project, we found a pretty large > variation in performance of different props with and without the nozzle for > these MD-101 motors. Just because you have a nozzle it does not guarantee > better thrust. As example, if you look at test results below, the 4" pitch > open water prop that ships with the MK-101, the MKP-33 with out the nozzle > generated 82 lbs of bollard thrust but when installed in the nozzle, the > thrust drops off to 71 lbs. This is not always the case. Using the 5" > after market Kipawa 80/01 prop when tested without the nozzle, the thrust > was 80 lbs but with the nozzle it jumped to 90 lbs. To me one of the big > issues seems to be the tip shape. To get good performance you have to > minimize leakage of pressure from the high pressure side of the blade to > the low pressure side around the tip. This is why all props on thrusters > with nozzles have tips that are square off rather than rounded with a small > gap between the blade and the nozzle. I don't know the prop you were using > but my guess is that it was an open water prop with rounded tip. Can you > send a picture from the stern showing the prop in your printed nozzle? > > [image: Inline image 1] > [image: Inline image 2] > > On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Oh I'm not celebrating yet - the sub hasn't made any dives! I was just > puttering around on the surface and only submerged in shallow water where > there were still six inches of the CT showing when I reached the bottom. It > might have been possible to dive, but I'd rather try it once the > water-blocking issue in the plumbing is addressed. > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Congratulations Alec, > How deep did you dive? Are you busy selecting a sound track for the video? > I am wondering if you were turning toward the tunnel thruster because > thrust can > push out to the side without the restraint of a kort nozzle! > I have done a preliminary drawing for a solenoid operated ballast valve > based on the top hat design that Vance gave out in Islamorada. With it > being > electrically operated you could control it with a gyro sensor using a board > that controls quad copters. That way at the flick of a switch you would > descend horizontally. (in theory). > Did you use the new lights? > Cheers Alan > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles rg > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg > > *Sent:* Friday, April 14, 2017 2:58 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test > > That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll iron > out the minor venting issue. > > Greg > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles rg > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg > > *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test > > Hi Greg, > > Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to > resolve. > > The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced > stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck > without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the > stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was > lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat > with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and > the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked > beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive. > > After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a > measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly > faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one > of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, > to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop > was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the > kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. > > Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow > dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and > I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I > didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading > edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. > The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the > opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was > just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. > > And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of > aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and > gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As > some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs > side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you > start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster > than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the > water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube > connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. > This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the > initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of > this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to > fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that > are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of > list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to > modify the plumbing. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator > > Jon, > an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster > in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something > compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will > fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi Hank, > > No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. A 36 inch > shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so > don't really want to purchase it that way. > > Jon > > > On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Jon, > Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? if so, you can > cut it down to a couple inches long and put a waterline compression fitting > on that. Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. Or you can thread > the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, > providing it is the heave fibreglass shaft. > Hank > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 69834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 19:36:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 19:36:52 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <526b9552-53f3-408f-6aff-02c0bbfc0b06@psubs.org> Looks like I have found an easier solution. Rather than finding a hose to fit over the shaft/motor coupler I can use 3/4 PVC sched-40 or a 1 inch plastic pipe barb fitting to fit inside the shaft/motor coupler. That gives me a short fitting to attach the air compensation hose to and it's smaller diameter so will be easier to find tubing or hose to fit it. With that, I think at this point I'm going to choose air compensation. While it requires more equipment and a potential octopus of tubing to retrofit it to the K-600, it has some very good advantages when it comes to easy-access to the motor when maintenance is required in the future. However, I reserve the right to change my mind. :) Jon On 4/13/2017 9:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster > in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something > compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will > fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions. > Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 19:59:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:59:21 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <526b9552-53f3-408f-6aff-02c0bbfc0b06@psubs.org> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <526b9552-53f3-408f-6aff-02c0bbfc0b06@psubs.org> Message-ID: <71362609-F9E6-47FA-946D-F956FF3DF358@yahoo.com> Jon, Glad you found a solution. I can't see any reason that you cannot use air compensation to pressurise an oil filled motor! You can have the choice of having air or filling with oil if you go with air compensation. I haven't thought through the situation where you could break off a fitting etc & drain a scuba tank of air. You would need to be sure that in the event of failure you could blow your ballasts. Wonder what Greg does! If you use Hugh / Cliff's regulator you have the option of dialling in an overpressure, however I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve operates on that regulator. It would be dictated by the relieving spring in the handle, & could be replaced with a different strength spring. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 15/04/2017, at 11:36 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Looks like I have found an easier solution. Rather than finding a hose to fit over the shaft/motor coupler I can use 3/4 PVC sched-40 or a 1 inch plastic pipe barb fitting to fit inside the shaft/motor coupler. That gives me a short fitting to attach the air compensation hose to and it's smaller diameter so will be easier to find tubing or hose to fit it. > > With that, I think at this point I'm going to choose air compensation. While it requires more equipment and a potential octopus of tubing to retrofit it to the K-600, it has some very good advantages when it comes to easy-access to the motor when maintenance is required in the future. > > However, I reserve the right to change my mind. :) > > Jon > > >> On 4/13/2017 9:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Jon, >> an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster >> in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something >> compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will >> fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions. >> Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 20:09:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 12:09:33 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> <1926812722.581732.1492209622337@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7D1DF482-5C70-4C79-98ED-EECD1390DECD@yahoo.com> Hi Cliff, if the 1500W thruster has a no load rpm of 2600, it is probably close to 1300 rpm under load. Who knows, it could be the same motor as the Minn kota. They get the extra thrust for the small diameter by going with more blades & possibly a higher pitch blade. I haven't thought about a kort nozzle yet. It may just be a piece of aluminium pipe while I do initial tests; or if I get extravagant I will go looking for a suitably sloping plastic bucket to wrap fibre glass around. Did that on the last sub! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 15/04/2017, at 11:30 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > This Vetus 6 bladed prop looks good but it does not match up with the MK 101 motor very well. To get this thrust from this small diameter (150mm or 5.9") they need to operated at higher rpm. The MK 101 operated under load at about 1500 rpm. IT does look like it would work well for 3-D printing. Let us know how the new thruster motors work with this prop. Which nozzle are you planning using. > > Cliff > >> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 5:40 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Cliff, >> have you looked at the Vetus 6 bladed prop rated for 35-55 kg thrust. >> https://www.vetus.com/set-spare-6-blade-prop-bow35-55.html >> The 35kg Vetus bow thruster has a 1500W motor. The rpm is 2600, >> but I am not sure if this is no load rpm. If it is, it would be about the >> same rpm as the Minn kota motor. >> The prop was designed by Marion & is designed for more of a static >> load as we see in our submarines, rather than for a faster lighter boat like >> the Minn kota prop is designed for. There could be some compromise >> in the diameter though, as they want to get the tunnel (nozzle) as small as >> possible to fit in to the bow of boats. The diameter could be an issue >> as it relates to the larger diameter of the Minn kota motor which would >> impede the water flow. >> One advantage is that it looks like it would be a lot sturdier when 3D >> printed than the 2 or 3 blade props. ( I have a collection of them now) >> Even though the printed 3D props performed on the Yamaha 15hp >> outboard, their prop design was again a lot stronger than our 2 or 3 blade >> props. >> Have you looked at the propeller on Graeme Hawkes Dragon submersible? >> I am guessing he is using high torque bike hub motors. He has designed a >> wide central nozzle with multiple fins off that. This would make for a much >> sturdier 3D printed article & avoid wasted thrust in to the body of the 101. >> Testing the New DeepFlight Dragon Submersible in Lake Tahoe >> >> Testing the New DeepFlight Dragon Submersible in Lake Tahoe >> The game-changing ?hovering? recreational sub is so easy to use, almost anyone can operate it? >> >> I am going to test the Vetus prop but have to wait about 4 weeks as I am >> having 4 new motors being made to my specs. >> BTW the prop shaft hole diameter in the Vetus is 13.5mm; I will be having >> to make up a sleeve to test it. Would be interested to know of any more >> test results. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> >> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 1:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test >> >> Alec, thanks for posting the trip report on Shackleton. I was interested in the testing you did on your printed Kort nozzle. From the testing we did on the MK-101 variable pitch prop project, we found a pretty large variation in performance of different props with and without the nozzle for these MD-101 motors. Just because you have a nozzle it does not guarantee better thrust. As example, if you look at test results below, the 4" pitch open water prop that ships with the MK-101, the MKP-33 with out the nozzle generated 82 lbs of bollard thrust but when installed in the nozzle, the thrust drops off to 71 lbs. This is not always the case. Using the 5" after market Kipawa 80/01 prop when tested without the nozzle, the thrust was 80 lbs but with the nozzle it jumped to 90 lbs. To me one of the big issues seems to be the tip shape. To get good performance you have to minimize leakage of pressure from the high pressure side of the blade to the low pressure side around the tip. This is why all props on thrusters with nozzles have tips that are square off rather than rounded with a small gap between the blade and the nozzle. I don't know the prop you were using but my guess is that it was an open water prop with rounded tip. Can you send a picture from the stern showing the prop in your printed nozzle? >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Oh I'm not celebrating yet - the sub hasn't made any dives! I was just puttering around on the surface and only submerged in shallow water where there were still six inches of the CT showing when I reached the bottom. It might have been possible to dive, but I'd rather try it once the water-blocking issue in the plumbing is addressed. >> >> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Congratulations Alec, >> How deep did you dive? Are you busy selecting a sound track for the video? >> I am wondering if you were turning toward the tunnel thruster because thrust can >> push out to the side without the restraint of a kort nozzle! >> I have done a preliminary drawing for a solenoid operated ballast valve >> based on the top hat design that Vance gave out in Islamorada. With it being >> electrically operated you could control it with a gyro sensor using a board >> that controls quad copters. That way at the flick of a switch you would >> descend horizontally. (in theory). >> Did you use the new lights? >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 2:58 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test >> >> That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll iron out the minor venting issue. >> >> Greg >> >> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to resolve. >> >> The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive. >> >> After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. >> >> Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. >> >> And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to modify the plumbing. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? >> >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator >> >> Jon, >> an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster >> in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something >> compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will >> fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Hank, >>> >>> No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head. A 36 inch shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so don't really want to purchase it that way. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Jon, >>> Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? if so, you can cut it down to a couple inches long and put a waterline compression fitting on that. Then reduce from the compression pipe thread. Or you can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, providing it is the heave fibreglass shaft. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 69834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 14 23:58:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 03:58:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test In-Reply-To: References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <239160893.110614.1492135825269@mail.yahoo.com> <1499875683.172317.1492138404709@mail.yahoo.com> <1002735420.137716.1492140273135@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2042994246.705764.1492228692384@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,you must have done this, but I divided the Watts consumed on your test chart by thethrust, to get a Watts consumed per lb of thrust figure. Wow a 25% power savingbetween worst & best. I will put a bit more effort in to the prop testing.Thanks for sharing those figures.Alan From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test Alec, thanks for posting the trip report on Shackleton.? I was interested in the testing you did on your printed Kort nozzle.? From the testing we?did on the MK-101 variable pitch prop project, we found a pretty large variation in performance of different props with and without the nozzle for these MD-101 motors.? Just because you have a nozzle it does not guarantee better thrust.? As example, if you look at test results below, the 4" pitch open water prop that ships with the MK-101, the MKP-33?with out the nozzle generated 82 lbs of bollard thrust but when installed in the nozzle, the thrust drops off to 71 lbs.? This is not always the case.? Using the 5" after market Kipawa 80/01 prop when tested without the nozzle, the thrust was 80 lbs but with the nozzle it jumped to 90 lbs.? To me one of the big issues seems to be the tip shape. To get good performance you have to minimize leakage of pressure from the high pressure side of the blade to the low pressure side around the tip.? This is why all props on thrusters with nozzles have tips that?are square off?rather than rounded with a small gap between the blade and the nozzle.? I don't know the prop you were using but my guess is that it was an open water prop with rounded tip. Can you send a picture from the stern showing the prop in your printed nozzle? On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oh I'm not celebrating yet - the sub hasn't made any dives! I was just puttering around on the surface and only submerged in shallow water where there were still six inches of the CT showing when I reached the bottom. It might have been possible to dive, but I'd rather try it once the water-blocking issue in the plumbing is addressed.? On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Congratulations Alec,How deep did you dive? Are you busy selecting a sound track for the video?I am wondering if you were turning toward the tunnel thruster because thrust canpush out to the side without the restraint of a kort nozzle! ?? I have done a preliminary drawing for a solenoid operated ballast valvebased on the top hat design that Vance gave out in Islamorada. With it beingelectrically operated you could control it with a gyro sensor using a boardthat controls quad copters. That way at the flick of a switch you woulddescend?horizontally. (in theory).Did you use the new lights?Cheers Alan From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test That sounds great Alec! Congrats on a great build. I'm sure you'll iron out the minor venting issue. Greg From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alec's test Hi Greg, Well here's how it went - much better but there's one more issue to resolve.? The change to a raft configuration for the MBTs has solved the surfaced stability issue. It was great, I could walk around to any edge of the deck without excessive list. The longitudinal trim was slightly down by the stern when empty, and trimmed out to perfectly level when a person was lying in the front half of the boat (stability was calculated for the boat with crew). She floats in water only just over waist deep, 38 inches, and the freeboard is 24 inches. The thrusters and their controls worked beautifully, and the "tank drive" is really, really intuitive.? After launching I drove around on the surface a bit. I didn't get a measurement of speed but would say while slower than a K350 she's decidedly faster than Snoopy. I tested a prototype kort nozzle by mounting it on one of the stern thrusters only and then giving both thrusters equal throttle, to see which way the boat tracked. Surprise, the un-shrouded original prop was more efficient because the boat would turn toward the side with the kort. So I'm just going to put on standard prop guards, at least for now. Part of the surface running I did lying down and looking through the bow dome. The view is ridiculously good! From the CT it wasn't bad either, and I was surprised how the flat domes made objects appear closer, something I didn't recall from the flat bow dome in Snoopy. In this one, the leading edge of the deck as seen through the CT viewports seemed only a foot away. The dome is something else entirely, and optically seemed to have the opposite effect of making things appear further away, but maybe that was just in contrast to the CT viewports I'd been looking though moments before. And so here is the new problem. The raft MBT consists of a collection of aluminum tanks, each of which has SS tubing coming out the top and gathering at a manifold, which is piped to the ball valves on the CT. As some of the tanks are off on the edges of the raft, some of the tubing runs side to side at an angle (up to 90 degrees) to the centerline. When you start flooding MBT, invariably one side will begin to fill slightly faster than the other. The side that is flooding faster will be lower in the water, and the effect of this list on the opposite side is that the tube connecting tanks to their manifold is now sloping downhill instead of up. This blocks the high side from letting out air, which exacerbates the initial list. It's really obvious when you see it, I should have thought of this effect. But luckily the solution is obvious too. There are two ways to fix it; remotely actuated valves right on the tanks, or new manifolds that are high enough to keep all tubing going uphill at reasonable angles of list. My initial impression is that the simpler of the two methods is to modify the plumbing.? Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Did anyone hear how Alec's test went today? From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Jon,an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thrusterin to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something?compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option willfit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions.Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/04/2017, at 12:53 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, No, I don't have the shaft, I purchased just the lower head.? A 36 inch shaft is $28 but like you said, I really only need a few inches of it so don't really want to purchase it that way. Jon On Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?Do you have the shaft that used to screw into the motor? ?if so, you can cut it down to a couple?inches long and put a waterline compression fitting on that. ? Then reduce from the compression pipe thread.? Or you can thread the inside of that stub shaft with a pipe tap and reduce from that, providing it is the heave?fibreglass shaft.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 91126 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 69834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 08:11:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 08:11:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Message-ID: Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking. Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 10:38:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 14:38:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the tanks. ?You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. ?You can plumb the tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each tank (12) ? The beauty of using more valves is?safety. ?If one fails, no big issue. ?You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire penetrator. ?The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment with and no modification to the tanks or sub. ?you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected. ?No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another zone. ?If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two years of operation. ?I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. ?If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. ? That is how my hydraulic valve works for my new manipulator. ?It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary. ?In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out. ?Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath solenoids.Hank On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 10:43:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 14:43:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <527476592.868967.1492267404194@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,Try?eBay, ?"air ride suspension solenoid valves" ?you will see a set of 8 for 98 dollars or so.Hank On Saturday, April 15, 2017 8:41 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the tanks. ?You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. ?You can plumb the tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each tank (12) ? The beauty of using more valves is?safety. ?If one fails, no big issue. ?You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire penetrator. ?The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment with and no modification to the tanks or sub. ?you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected. ?No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another zone. ?If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two years of operation. ?I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. ?If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. ? That is how my hydraulic valve works for my new manipulator. ?It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary. ?In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out. ?Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath solenoids.Hank On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 11:05:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:05:10 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <527476592.868967.1492267404194@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <527476592.868967.1492267404194@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hank. I'm definitely building for salt water. A small cheap solenoid valve on each tank sounds attractive, but I'd need to figure out a way to encase these valves in oil, or even better an air compensated enclosure - ugh! How about something like this? There are much cheaper ones. There would be four zones. http://www.omega.com/pptst/AAV-1100.html On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > Try eBay, "air ride suspension solenoid valves" you will see a set of 8 > for 98 dollars or so. > Hank > > > On Saturday, April 15, 2017 8:41 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Alec, > If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the > tanks. You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. You can plumb the tanks > together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each > tank (12) The beauty of using more valves is safety. If one fails, no > big issue. You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire > penetrator. The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment > with and no modification to the tanks or sub. > you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not > connected. No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to > another zone. > If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say > the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two > years of operation. I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one > dive every 7 minutes. > If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank > with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder > mounted behind the CT. That is how my hydraulic valve works for my new > manipulator. It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for > Elementary. In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all > out. Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil > bath solenoids. > Hank > > > On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with > re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing > is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before > deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and > the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve > inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could > also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with > very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is > space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more > freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball > valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for > fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to > list-induced water blocking. > > Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, > something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 12:12:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:12:59 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: zOtycfHQ38mABzOtzcBanx References: zOtycfHQ38mABzOtzcBanx Message-ID: I would look at air actuated valves, so that you avoid subjecting any electronics to submergence, and then if you want automation, use 24 VDC solenoids inside the pressure hull to switch the air signals, along with a manual bypass on each pilot line for SHTF control. Sean On April 15, 2017 8:38:12 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Alec,If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting >the tanks. ?You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. ?You can plumb the >tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly >to each tank (12) ? The beauty of using more valves is?safety. ?If one >fails, no big issue. ?You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 >wire penetrator. ?The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to >experiment with and no modification to the tanks or sub. ?you will need >check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected. ?No >point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another >zone. ?If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I >can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a >problem in two years of operation. ?I am talking many thousands of >dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. ?If your in salt water then >you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where >the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. >? That is how my hydraulic valve works for my new manipulator. ?It is >fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary. ?In the >mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out. ?Your entire >fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath >solenoids.Hank > >On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi all, >I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go >with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the >tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities >before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks >per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a >mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. >However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and >above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three >tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be >outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of >the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air >cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side >control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? >Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, >something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? > >Thanks, >Alec > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 12:21:27 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 12:21:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <527476592.868967.1492267404194@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Air suspension valves like the one below seem to have the wires coming in through an NPT port, by means of which I could screw them onto a pressure compensated pipe. Already having air compensation for the thrusters, that becomes super easy. Do you think the valves are air tight? I could dip the whole thing to protect it from corrosion on the outside if it's air tight. http://wheelsnparts.airslamit.com/airmaxxx-1-2-npt-brass-air-valve.html Thanks, Alec On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:05 AM, Alec Smyth wrote: > Thanks Hank. I'm definitely building for salt water. A small cheap > solenoid valve on each tank sounds attractive, but I'd need to figure out a > way to encase these valves in oil, or even better an air compensated > enclosure - ugh! How about something like this? There are much cheaper > ones. There would be four zones. > > http://www.omega.com/pptst/AAV-1100.html > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alec, >> Try eBay, "air ride suspension solenoid valves" you will see a set of >> 8 for 98 dollars or so. >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 8:41 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Alec, >> If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the >> tanks. You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. You can plumb the tanks >> together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each >> tank (12) The beauty of using more valves is safety. If one fails, no >> big issue. You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire >> penetrator. The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment >> with and no modification to the tanks or sub. >> you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not >> connected. No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to >> another zone. >> If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say >> the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two >> years of operation. I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one >> dive every 7 minutes. >> If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank >> with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder >> mounted behind the CT. That is how my hydraulic valve works for my new >> manipulator. It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for >> Elementary. In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all >> out. Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil >> bath solenoids. >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with >> re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing >> is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before >> deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and >> the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve >> inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could >> also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with >> very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is >> space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more >> freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball >> valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for >> fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to >> list-induced water blocking. >> >> Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, >> something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 12:40:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 16:40:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <71362609-F9E6-47FA-946D-F956FF3DF358@yahoo.com> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <526b9552-53f3-408f-6aff-02c0bbfc0b06@psubs.org> <71362609-F9E6-47FA-946D-F956FF3DF358@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1404365035.926250.1492274416040@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,The air comp system should have a dedicated tank. From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Jon, Glad you found a solution. I can't see any reason that you cannot use air compensation to pressurise an oil filled motor! You can have the choice of having air or filling with oil if you go with air compensation. I haven't thought through the situation where you could break off a fitting etc & drain a scuba tank of air. You would need to be sure that in the event of failure you could blow your ballasts. Wonder what Greg does! ? If you use Hugh / Cliff's regulator you have the option of dialling in an overpressure, however I am not sure at what pressure the relieving valve operates on that regulator. It would be dictated by the relieving spring in the handle, & could be replaced with a different strength spring. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 15/04/2017, at 11:36 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Looks like I have found an easier solution.? Rather than finding a hose to fit over the shaft/motor coupler I can use 3/4 PVC sched-40 or a 1 inch plastic pipe barb fitting to fit inside the shaft/motor coupler.? That gives me a short fitting to attach the air compensation hose to and it's smaller diameter so will be easier to find tubing or hose to fit it. > > With that, I think at this point I'm going to choose air compensation.? While it requires more equipment and a potential octopus of tubing to retrofit it to the K-600, it has some very good advantages when it comes to easy-access to the motor when maintenance is required in the future. > > However, I reserve the right to change my mind.? :) > > Jon > > >> On 4/13/2017 9:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Jon, >> an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster >> in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something >> compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will >> fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions. >> Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 12:41:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 16:41:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator In-Reply-To: <526b9552-53f3-408f-6aff-02c0bbfc0b06@psubs.org> References: <20170405162930.34083412@m0087798.ppops.net> <829168352.1893200.1491436073785@mail.yahoo.com> <1381350299.1886010.1491437359290@mail.yahoo.com> <1758376115.1915456.1491438273081@mail.yahoo.com> <0DC977A8-F60F-4048-BE5C-0D6A6631D1E9@yahoo.com> <1202584772.1095910.1491450863812@mail.yahoo.com> <694222cb-8206-0d6f-6432-37806610c5cf@psubs.org> <998376045.1877723.1492110974966@mail.yahoo.com> <28731BB1-5D3C-4BDD-B43E-735A977B0E2C@yahoo.com> <1473835207.85537.1492125800363@mail.yahoo.com> <1066670749.60023.1492129282532@mail.yahoo.com> <89184017.111659.1492131208083@mail.yahoo.com> <8D4CD194-2770-4E9D-A890-A06EF6CA2DBC@yahoo.com> <526b9552-53f3-408f-6aff-02c0bbfc0b06@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1767150569.935455.1492274475407@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,Another benefit is that you can air comp any light that is designed to operate in air. From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil Compensator Looks like I have found an easier solution.? Rather than finding a hose to fit over the shaft/motor coupler I can use 3/4 PVC sched-40 or a 1 inch plastic pipe barb fitting to fit inside the shaft/motor coupler.? That gives me a short fitting to attach the air compensation hose to and it's smaller diameter so will be easier to find tubing or hose to fit it. With that, I think at this point I'm going to choose air compensation.? While it requires more equipment and a potential octopus of tubing to retrofit it to the K-600, it has some very good advantages when it comes to easy-access to the motor when maintenance is required in the future. However, I reserve the right to change my mind.? :) Jon On 4/13/2017 9:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, an easy solution is to take the thruster, or that section of the thruster in to a plumbing merchant or hydraulic repair shop & ask for something? compatible with a barbed hose fitting. Sometimes a metric option will fit in an imperial thread, & so they may know of not so obvious solutions. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 12:43:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 16:43:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1775867350.910182.1492274590747@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,You might try a Turbo blow off valve. From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 8:13 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 12:44:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 16:44:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Alec,If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the tanks. ?You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. ?You can plumb the tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each tank (12) ? The beauty of using more valves is?safety. ?If one fails, no big issue. ?You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire penetrator. ?The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment with and no modification to the tanks or sub. ?you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected. ?No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another zone. ?If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two years of operation. ?I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. ?If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. ? That is how my hydraulic valve works for my new manipulator. ?It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary. ?In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out. ?Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath solenoids.Hank On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 13:27:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 17:27:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water. ?It comes down to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at?thousands. ?An oil bath valve bank will cost ?around 500 dollars to set up. ?In my mind both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary just because I don't know if it might go in salt water. ? We are happy to fill our ?motors with oil, why not electro magnets. Greg,There are tons of air suspension valves ?on Ebay with ?switch panels even. ? I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil bath it. On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Alec,If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the tanks. ?You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. ?You can plumb the tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each tank (12) ? The beauty of using more valves is?safety. ?If one fails, no big issue. ?You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire penetrator. ?The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment with and no modification to the tanks or sub. ?you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected. ?No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another zone. ?If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two years of operation. ?I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. ?If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. ? That is how my hydraulic valve works for my new manipulator. ?It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary. ?In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out. ?Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath solenoids.Hank On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 13:36:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 13:36:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There are some Red Hat solenoid valves that are advertised as submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so those could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the air suspension ones. On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water. It comes down > to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at thousands. An > oil bath valve bank will cost around 500 dollars to set up. In my mind > both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary just > because I don't know if it might go in salt water. We are happy to fill > our motors with oil, why not electro magnets. > > Greg, > There are tons of air suspension valves on Ebay with switch panels even. > I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil bath it. > > > > On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? > > Alec, > If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the > tanks. You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. You can plumb the tanks > together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each > tank (12) The beauty of using more valves is safety. If one fails, no > big issue. You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire > penetrator. The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment > with and no modification to the tanks or sub. > you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not > connected. No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to > another zone. > If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say > the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two > years of operation. I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one > dive every 7 minutes. > If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank > with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder > mounted behind the CT. That is how my hydraulic valve works for my new > manipulator. It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for > Elementary. In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all > out. Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil > bath solenoids. > Hank > > > On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with > re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing > is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before > deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and > the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve > inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could > also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with > very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is > space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more > freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball > valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for > fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to > list-induced water blocking. > > Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, > something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 14:03:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 18:03:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <29766697.943138.1492279416400@mail.yahoo.com> I used the red hat valves on my ROV, they are very good quality, but I doubt they are air tight. ? On Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There are some Red Hat solenoid valves that are advertised as submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so those could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the air suspension ones. On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water.? It comes down to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at?thousands.? An oil bath valve bank will cost ?around 500 dollars to set up.? In my mind both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary just because I don't know if it might go in salt water. ? We are happy to fill our ?motors with oil, why not electro magnets. Greg,There are tons of air suspension valves ?on Ebay with ?switch panels even. ? I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil bath it. On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Alec,If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the tanks.? You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars.? You can plumb the tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each tank (12) ? The beauty of using more valves is?safety.? If one fails, no big issue.? You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire penetrator.? The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment with and no modification to the tanks or sub. ?you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected.? No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another zone. ?If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two years of operation.? I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. ?If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. ? That is how my hydraulic valve works for my new manipulator.? It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary.? In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out.? Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath solenoids.Hank On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 16:40:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 14:40:23 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: zS7LcuoyuEEArzS7NcyHL4 References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> zS7LcuoyuEEArzS7NcyHL4 Message-ID: I use a lot of the new ones - the ASCO "Next Generation" Red Hat valves with 24 VDC coils. The electrical characteristics are excellent, and they perform well in any position. I just use the standard enclosures, but you can get them in NEMA 4X. Don't know how these would take to submerged / compensated use, but they would be pretty easy to modify for that purpose. The housings come with an integral 1/2 NPTF for a conduit fitting - you could easily install a Swagelok tube fitting instead for dielectric oil compensation. ASCO does make a line of solenoid valves for naval / marine use, but these have only the basic coil electronics and a plastic housing that makes them submersible to fifteen feet. Not the ideal coils for battery power though. If I could modify the housing and / or compensate to make them work, I'd be more inclined to use the Next Gen Red Hats. Sean On April 15, 2017 12:03:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I used the red hat valves on my ROV, they are very good quality, but I >doubt they are air tight. ? > >On Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:36 AM, Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >There are some Red Hat solenoid valves that are advertised as >submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so >those could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the >air suspension ones. >On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Alec,The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water.? It >comes down to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking >at?thousands.? An oil bath valve bank will cost ?around 500 dollars to >set up.? In my mind both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank >for Elementary just because I don't know if it might go in salt water. >? We are happy to fill our ?motors with oil, why not electro magnets. >Greg,There are tons of air suspension valves ?on Ebay with ?switch >panels even. ? I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil >bath it. > > >On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank,Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? > >Alec,If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting >the tanks.? You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars.? You can plumb the >tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly >to each tank (12) ? The beauty of using more valves is?safety.? If one >fails, no big issue.? You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 >wire penetrator.? The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to >experiment with and no modification to the tanks or sub. ?you will need >check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected.? No >point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another >zone. ?If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I >can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a >problem in two years of operation.? I am talking many thousands of >dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. ?If your in salt water then >you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where >the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. >? That is how my hydraulic valve works for my new manipulator.? It is >fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary.? In the >mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out.? Your entire >fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath >solenoids.Hank > >On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi all, >I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go >with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the >tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities >before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks >per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a >mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. >However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and >above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three >tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be >outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of >the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air >cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side >control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? >Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, >something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? > >Thanks, >Alec > >______________________________ _________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > >______________________________ _________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 16:48:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 14:48:16 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller In-Reply-To: z0Z8cajPTMs6Wz0Z9cZyyM References: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <013801d2b502$85298ae0$8f7ca0a0$@nl> z0Z8cajPTMs6Wz0Z9cZyyM Message-ID: <040548b7-50e9-4f4d-9f95-2a1797bc6b1f@email.android.com> One other thing to consider is that you can 3D print in a material meant to be consumable during investment casting. In that case, instead of making a mold (cope & drag) for sand casting, you just 3D print the part in a weak / low temperature polymer, pack that in the casting sand, and it burns away when you pour the casting. Single use, of course, so it depends how much cost and time is involved to 3D print the part (positive mold), but you end up with your final part in aluminum or bronze and can finish it with ordinary metalworking techniques. Sean On April 14, 2017 6:42:04 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Emile, I am interested in the work you did on 3D printing of a thruster >prop using ABS. Can give us more detail? Did you use an online service >to >print the prop? What was the cost? Did you work off a 3-D model file >like >a STEP file? What was the surface finish? What incremental steps did >you >have to make (surface finish, machinating...) before mounting? Did you >explore any other materials than ABS? How well has the prop held up? >How >well do you think the ABS will handle UV? > >Best Regards > >Cliff > >On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 4:35 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alan, >> >> The propellor from my rimdrive thruster is 3D printed in ABS. >> Seems strong enough. >> >> Emile >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Personal_Submersibles >[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org >> ] >> Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> Verzonden: vrijdag 14 april 2017 3:24 >> Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller >> >> Thanks Ian, Greg & Hank. >> Ian, I hadn't thought of that 2 propeller type bow thruster as a left >hand >> propeller source. I will track one down & test it. I can always trim >the >> diameter down a bit if it is in the ball park. The price isn't too >bad >> either. If we could print our own propellers, that would be awsome. >> Greg, the motors I am using are rated for 50 Amps continuous & I >am >> using >> a direct drive. In my calculations, I would need to go to a really >low >> pitch >> prop if I went to a larger diameter, & I haven't seen anything that >low. I >> was using a 7&1/4" 2hp Yamaha prop for testing & it only drew 33 >amps. It >> will be a matter of pool testing a few of these props & finding a >good >> economy of Amp draw & thrust but it is being dictated to a degree by >what I >> can get in right & left hand. >> Hank, looking at these propellers again, it would be very >difficult to >> cast them. >> If I made a silicone mold I'd never get the part out. It would also >be >> difficult to get resin in to the blade area & get air out. >> Found out that the new motors I ordered are being used commercially >on >> electric surf boards, so I can't be too far off track. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On 14/04/2017, at 12:32 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > Hi Alan, >> > >> > it might be a bit big for you, but the smallest cheap counter >rotating >> > prop set I've found is from "Quick", they do a 4 blade 185mm in RH >and >> > LH for $40-$80 (depending on where you order them). Part numbers: >> > BTQ185 LH (QI55507) >> > BTQ185 RH (QI55508) >> > >> > >http://www.quickusastore.com/bow-thrusters/spare-parts/bow-thrusters-p >> > ropellers.html >> > >> > I got a pair and installed the on cheap ($45) trolling motors. >They made >> a big difference over the stock props, but of would probably burn out >the >> cheap trolling motors quickly. I didn't get around to look into >reducing >> the diameter to better match the motors (plus I want to use better >motors >> anyway). >> > >> > An SLA 3D Printer may be able to print something which could be >used >> (after UV curing). >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Ian. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> >> >> >> Sent: Apr 13, 2017 4:52 PM >> >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller >> >> >> >> Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) I am going to test a Vetus >> >> 146mm propeller soon. On paper it seems a good match to my motor. >I >> >> have not seen a left hand prop (which I >> >> need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a >> >> slightly smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. >> >> Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating something >similar? >> >> I was thinking they could be printed & the print used as a lost >wax >> >> type aluminium casting. >> >> I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced >> >> propeller, but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could >get. >> >> Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? >> >> Thanks, Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 17:23:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 21:23:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <821549499.1001845.1492291419324@mail.yahoo.com> If your on a tight budget, a simple steel box with nipples threaded into the single valves that protrude past the box wall. ?Then simply weld the nipples to the box. ?This traps the valve body bottom section, but there are no moving parts in the bottom body section. ?The valve can be?disassembled in place and this would save buying all the fittings and lines. ?Then barbed fittings on the nipples with air hose to the tanks. ?A weekend project, just start with the penetrator so the epoxy can set up while you weld up your box. ?The penetrator can be solid core wire ?with the jacket removed for a 1\2 inch then potted in a pipe fitting. ?I tested that to 1,000 psi.Hank On Saturday, April 15, 2017 2:40 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use a lot of the new ones - the ASCO "Next Generation" Red Hat valves with 24 VDC coils. The electrical characteristics are excellent, and they perform well in any position. I just use the standard enclosures, but you can get them in NEMA 4X. Don't know how these would take to submerged / compensated use, but they would be pretty easy to modify for that purpose. The housings come with an integral 1/2 NPTF for a conduit fitting - you could easily install a Swagelok tube fitting instead for dielectric oil compensation. ASCO does make a line of solenoid valves for naval / marine use, but these have only the basic coil electronics and a plastic housing that makes them submersible to fifteen feet. Not the ideal coils for battery power though. If I could modify the housing and / or compensate to make them work, I'd be more inclined to use the Next Gen Red Hats.Sean On April 15, 2017 12:03:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I used the red hat valves on my ROV, they are very good quality, but I doubt they are air tight. ? On Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There are some Red Hat solenoid valves ! that areadvertised as submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so those could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the air suspension ones. On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water.? It comes down to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at?thousands.? An oil bath valve bank will cost ?around 500 dollars to set up.? In my mind both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary just because I don't know if it might go in salt water. ? We are happy to fill our ?motors with oil, why not electro magnets. Greg,There are tons of air suspension valves ?on Ebay with ?switch panels even. ? I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil bath it. On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Alec,If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the tanks.? You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars.? You can plumb the tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each tank (12) ? The beauty of using more valves is?safety.? If one fails, no big issue.? You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire penetrator.? The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment with and! nomodification to the tanks or sub. ?you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected.? No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another zone. ?If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two years of operation.? I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. ?If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. ? That is how my hydrau! licvalve works for my new manipulator.? It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary.? In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out.? Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath solenoids.Hank On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do! justtwo valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 17:42:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:42:56 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0A1FC018-AB2B-434E-9093-D551D281DC3F@yahoo.com> I have 3 of the red hat style 24V solenoid valves on the ballast tank of my ambient. They work really well but they are a tiny bit more complicated than you think & are susceptible to corrosion. Be aware that the most common types of solenoid valves use water or air pressure to help them open, & so are no good on a ballast tank. Hugh, ( who owns a valve firm ) hadn't found a suitable product when we discussed them a few years ago. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 16/04/2017, at 8:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I use a lot of the new ones - the ASCO "Next Generation" Red Hat valves with 24 VDC coils. The electrical characteristics are excellent, and they perform well in any position. I just use the standard enclosures, but you can get them in NEMA 4X. Don't know how these would take to submerged / compensated use, but they would be pretty easy to modify for that purpose. The housings come with an integral 1/2 NPTF for a conduit fitting - you could easily install a Swagelok tube fitting instead for dielectric oil compensation. ASCO does make a line of solenoid valves for naval / marine use, but these have only the basic coil electronics and a plastic housing that makes them submersible to fifteen feet. Not the ideal coils for battery power though. If I could modify the housing and / or compensate to make them work, I'd be more inclined to use the Next Gen Red Hats. > > Sean > > >> On April 15, 2017 12:03:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I used the red hat valves on my ROV, they are very good quality, but I doubt they are air tight. >> >> >> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> There are some Red Hat solenoid valves ! that are advertised as submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so those could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the air suspension ones. >> >> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alec, >> The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water. It comes down to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at thousands. An oil bath valve bank will cost around 500 dollars to set up. In my mind both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary just because I don't know if it might go in salt water. We are happy to fill our motors with oil, why not electro magnets. >> >> Greg, >> There are tons of air suspension valves on Ebay with switch panels even. I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil bath it. >> >> >> >> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. >> >> >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? >> >> Alec, >> If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the tanks. You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. You can plumb the tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each tank (12) The beauty of using more valves is safety. If one fails, no big issue. You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire penetrator. The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment with and! no modification to the tanks or sub. >> you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected. No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another zone. >> If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two years of operation. I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. >> If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. That is how my hydrau! lic valve works for my new manipulator. It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary. In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out. Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath solenoids. >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do! just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking. >> >> Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 18:15:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 18:15:16 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <0A1FC018-AB2B-434E-9093-D551D281DC3F@yahoo.com> References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> <0A1FC018-AB2B-434E-9093-D551D281DC3F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I once had a whole box full of these 24V Red Hats, which I never used and ended up selling on eBay. I kept two of them just in case, and pulled them out just now. I believe they're an old style, they have a round body that I no longer see on the current ones, but they've never been used. Well, I just screwed a piece of pipe into one, stuck the end of the pipe in my mouth to "pressurize" the enclosure, and put it under water in the kitchen sink. No bubbles, it's properly airtight. This thing could be pressure compensated really easily. On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I have 3 of the red hat style 24V solenoid valves on the ballast tank of > my ambient. > They work really well but they are a tiny bit more complicated than you > think > & are susceptible to corrosion. Be aware that the most common types of > solenoid > valves use water or air pressure to help them open, & so are no good on a > ballast > tank. > Hugh, ( who owns a valve firm ) hadn't found a suitable product when we > discussed > them a few years ago. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 16/04/2017, at 8:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I use a lot of the new ones - the ASCO "Next Generation" Red Hat valves > with 24 VDC coils. The electrical characteristics are excellent, and they > perform well in any position. I just use the standard enclosures, but you > can get them in NEMA 4X. Don't know how these would take to submerged / > compensated use, but they would be pretty easy to modify for that purpose. > The housings come with an integral 1/2 NPTF for a conduit fitting - you > could easily install a Swagelok tube fitting instead for dielectric oil > compensation. ASCO does make a line of solenoid valves for naval / marine > use, but these have only the basic coil electronics and a plastic housing > that makes them submersible to fifteen feet. Not the ideal coils for > battery power though. If I could modify the housing and / or compensate to > make them work, I'd be more inclined to use the Next Gen Red Hats. > > Sean > > > On April 15, 2017 12:03:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> I used the red hat valves on my ROV, they are very good quality, but I >> doubt they are air tight. >> >> >> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:36 AM, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> There are some Red Hat solenoid valves ! that are advertised as >> submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so those >> could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the air >> suspension ones. >> >> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alec, >> The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water. It comes down >> to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at thousands. An >> oil bath valve bank will cost around 500 dollars to set up. In my mind >> both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary just >> because I don't know if it might go in salt water. We are happy to fill >> our motors with oil, why not electro magnets. >> >> Greg, >> There are tons of air suspension valves on Ebay with switch panels >> even. I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil bath it. >> >> >> >> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > org > >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > org > >> *Sent:* Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? >> >> Alec, >> If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the >> tanks. You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. You can plumb the tanks >> together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each >> tank (12) The beauty of using more valves is safety. If one fails, no >> big issue. You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire >> penetrator. The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment >> with and! no modification to the tanks or sub. >> you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not >> connected. No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to >> another zone. >> If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say >> the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two >> years of operation. I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one >> dive every 7 minutes. >> If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank >> with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder >> mounted behind the CT. That is how my hydrau! lic valve works for my new >> manipulator. It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for >> Elementary. In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all >> out. Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil >> bath solenoids. >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> > >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with >> re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing >> is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before >> deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and >> the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve >> inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could >> also do! just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, >> with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. >> There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a >> lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal >> ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for >> fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to >> list-induced water blocking. >> >> Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, >> something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alec >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 18:24:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 22:24:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> <0A1FC018-AB2B-434E-9093-D551D281DC3F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2061454662.1054957.1492295070941@mail.yahoo.com> Alec, can you send a picture, very interesting On Saturday, April 15, 2017 4:15 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I once had a whole box full of these 24V Red Hats, which I never used and ended up selling on eBay. I kept two of them just in case, and pulled them out just now. I believe they're an old style, they have a round body that I no longer see on the current ones, but they've never been used. Well, I just screwed a piece of pipe into one, stuck the end of the pipe in my mouth to "pressurize" the enclosure, and put it under water in the kitchen sink. No bubbles, it's properly airtight. This thing could be pressure compensated really easily.? On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have 3 of the red hat style 24V solenoid valves on the ballast tank of my ambient.? ?They work really well but they are a tiny bit more complicated than you think& are susceptible to corrosion. Be aware that the most common types of solenoidvalves use water or air pressure to help them open, & so are no good on a ballasttank.Hugh, ( who owns a valve firm ) hadn't found a suitable product when we discussedthem a few years ago.Alan Sent from my iPad On 16/04/2017, at 8:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use a lot of the new ones - the ASCO "Next Generation" Red Hat valves with 24 VDC coils. The electrical characteristics are excellent, and they perform well in any position. I just use the standard enclosures, but you can get them in NEMA 4X. Don't know how these would take to submerged / compensated use, but they would be pretty easy to modify for that purpose. The housings come with an integral 1/2 NPTF for a conduit fitting - you could easily install a Swagelok tube fitting instead for dielectric oil compensation. ASCO does make a line of solenoid valves for naval / marine use, but these have only the basic coil electronics and a plastic housing that makes them submersible to fifteen feet. Not the ideal coils for battery power though. If I could modify the housing and / or compensate to make them work, I'd be more inclined to use the Next Gen Red Hats.Sean On April 15, 2017 12:03:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I used the red hat valves on my ROV, they are very good quality, but I doubt they are air tight. ? On Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There are some Red Hat solenoid valves ! that areadvertised as submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so those could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the air suspension ones. On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water.? It comes down to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at?thousands.? An oil bath valve bank will cost ?around 500 dollars to set up.? In my mind both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary just because I don't know if it might go in salt water. ? We are happy to fill our ?motors with oil, why not electro magnets. Greg,There are tons of air suspension valves ?on Ebay with ?switch panels even. ? I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil bath it. On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Alec,If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the tanks.? You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars.? You can plumb the tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each tank (12) ? The beauty of using more valves is?safety.? If one fails, no big issue.? You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire penetrator.? The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment with and! nomodification to the tanks or sub. ?you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected.? No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another zone. ?If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two years of operation.? I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. ?If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. ? That is how my hydrau! licvalve works for my new manipulator.? It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary.? In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out.? Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath solenoids.Hank On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do! justtwo valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 18:46:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 16:46:00 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: zVzQctOrIopZnzVzRc6v2L References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> <0A1FC018-AB2B-434E-9093-D551D281DC3F@yahoo.com> zVzQctOrIopZnzVzRc6v2L Message-ID: <15080809-5043-457e-9009-3114a7dbdc96@email.android.com> Hank is right about the mechanism of operation though. Some of these solenoid poppet valves have a minimum dP across the valve to operate. When you are trying to vent air under just a few inches of water column pressure, the performance may not be there. I have a couple of the Next Gen Red Hats in the lab. When I go back in on Monday, I'll conduct a small experiment to see if they hold any pressure. Sean On April 15, 2017 4:15:16 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I once had a whole box full of these 24V Red Hats, which I never used >and >ended up selling on eBay. I kept two of them just in case, and pulled >them >out just now. I believe they're an old style, they have a round body >that I >no longer see on the current ones, but they've never been used. Well, I >just screwed a piece of pipe into one, stuck the end of the pipe in my >mouth to "pressurize" the enclosure, and put it under water in the >kitchen >sink. No bubbles, it's properly airtight. This thing could be pressure >compensated really easily. > >On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I have 3 of the red hat style 24V solenoid valves on the ballast tank >of >> my ambient. >> They work really well but they are a tiny bit more complicated >than you >> think >> & are susceptible to corrosion. Be aware that the most common types >of >> solenoid >> valves use water or air pressure to help them open, & so are no good >on a >> ballast >> tank. >> Hugh, ( who owns a valve firm ) hadn't found a suitable product when >we >> discussed >> them a few years ago. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 16/04/2017, at 8:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> I use a lot of the new ones - the ASCO "Next Generation" Red Hat >valves >> with 24 VDC coils. The electrical characteristics are excellent, and >they >> perform well in any position. I just use the standard enclosures, but >you >> can get them in NEMA 4X. Don't know how these would take to submerged >/ >> compensated use, but they would be pretty easy to modify for that >purpose. >> The housings come with an integral 1/2 NPTF for a conduit fitting - >you >> could easily install a Swagelok tube fitting instead for dielectric >oil >> compensation. ASCO does make a line of solenoid valves for naval / >marine >> use, but these have only the basic coil electronics and a plastic >housing >> that makes them submersible to fifteen feet. Not the ideal coils for >> battery power though. If I could modify the housing and / or >compensate to >> make them work, I'd be more inclined to use the Next Gen Red Hats. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On April 15, 2017 12:03:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> I used the red hat valves on my ROV, they are very good quality, but >I >>> doubt they are air tight. >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:36 AM, Alec Smyth via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> There are some Red Hat solenoid valves ! that are advertised as >>> submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so >those >>> could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the air >>> suspension ones. >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Alec, >>> The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water. It comes >down >>> to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at thousands. >An >>> oil bath valve bank will cost around 500 dollars to set up. In my >mind >>> both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary >just >>> because I don't know if it might go in salt water. We are happy to >fill >>> our motors with oil, why not electro magnets. >>> >>> Greg, >>> There are tons of air suspension valves on Ebay with switch panels >>> even. I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil >bath it. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via >>> Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hank, >>> Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >>> org > >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> org > >>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? >>> >>> Alec, >>> If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the >>> tanks. You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. You can plumb the >tanks >>> together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to >each >>> tank (12) The beauty of using more valves is safety. If one >fails, no >>> big issue. You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire >>> penetrator. The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to >experiment >>> with and! no modification to the tanks or sub. >>> you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are >not >>> connected. No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive >air to >>> another zone. >>> If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can >say >>> the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem >in two >>> years of operation. I am talking many thousands of dives, actually >one >>> dive every 7 minutes. >>> If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve >bank >>> with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a >bladder >>> mounted behind the CT. That is how my hydrau! lic valve works for >my new >>> manipulator. It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do >for >>> Elementary. In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it >all >>> out. Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go >to oil >>> bath solenoids. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go >with >>> re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the >tubing >>> is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before >>> deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per >side, and >>> the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom >valve >>> inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I >could >>> also do! just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the >tanks, >>> with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each >valve. >>> There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I >have a >>> lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even >normal >>> ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would >allow for >>> fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to >>> list-induced water blocking. >>> >>> Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For >example, >>> something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 19:13:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 19:13:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <2061454662.1054957.1492295070941@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> <0A1FC018-AB2B-434E-9093-D551D281DC3F@yahoo.com> <2061454662.1054957.1492295070941@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Done, I sent you pics directly rather than through the list so I could send higher resolution. On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, can you send a picture, very interesting > > > On Saturday, April 15, 2017 4:15 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I once had a whole box full of these 24V Red Hats, which I never used and > ended up selling on eBay. I kept two of them just in case, and pulled them > out just now. I believe they're an old style, they have a round body that I > no longer see on the current ones, but they've never been used. Well, I > just screwed a piece of pipe into one, stuck the end of the pipe in my > mouth to "pressurize" the enclosure, and put it under water in the kitchen > sink. No bubbles, it's properly airtight. This thing could be pressure > compensated really easily. > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I have 3 of the red hat style 24V solenoid valves on the ballast tank of > my ambient. > They work really well but they are a tiny bit more complicated than you > think > & are susceptible to corrosion. Be aware that the most common types of > solenoid > valves use water or air pressure to help them open, & so are no good on a > ballast > tank. > Hugh, ( who owns a valve firm ) hadn't found a suitable product when we > discussed > them a few years ago. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 16/04/2017, at 8:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > I use a lot of the new ones - the ASCO "Next Generation" Red Hat valves > with 24 VDC coils. The electrical characteristics are excellent, and they > perform well in any position. I just use the standard enclosures, but you > can get them in NEMA 4X. Don't know how these would take to submerged / > compensated use, but they would be pretty easy to modify for that purpose. > The housings come with an integral 1/2 NPTF for a conduit fitting - you > could easily install a Swagelok tube fitting instead for dielectric oil > compensation. ASCO does make a line of solenoid valves for naval / marine > use, but these have only the basic coil electronics and a plastic housing > that makes them submersible to fifteen feet. Not the ideal coils for > battery power though. If I could modify the housing and / or compensate to > make them work, I'd be more inclined to use the Next Gen Red Hats. > Sean > > > On April 15, 2017 12:03:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > I used the red hat valves on my ROV, they are very good quality, but I > doubt they are air tight. > > > On Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > > There are some Red Hat solenoid valves ! that are advertised as > submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so those > could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the air > suspension ones. > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alec, > The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water. It comes down > to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at thousands. An > oil bath valve bank will cost around 500 dollars to set up. In my mind > both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary just > because I don't know if it might go in salt water. We are happy to fill > our motors with oil, why not electro magnets. > > Greg, > There are tons of air suspension valves on Ebay with switch panels even. > I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil bath it. > > > > On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hank, > Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? > > Alec, > If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the > tanks. You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. You can plumb the tanks > together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each > tank (12) The beauty of using more valves is safety. If one fails, no > big issue. You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire > penetrator. The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment > with and! no modification to the tanks or sub. > you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not > connected. No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to > another zone. > If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say > the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two > years of operation. I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one > dive every 7 minutes. > If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank > with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder > mounted behind the CT. That is how my hydrau! lic valve works for my new > manipulator. It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for > Elementary. In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all > out. Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil > bath solenoids. > Hank > > > On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with > re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing > is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before > deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and > the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve > inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could > also do! just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, > with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. > There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a > lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal > ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for > fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to > list-induced water blocking. > > Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, > something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 20:56:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 00:56:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> <0A1FC018-AB2B-434E-9093-D551D281DC3F@yahoo.com> <2061454662.1054957.1492295070941@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1691168030.1081833.1492304190252@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,Your valve looks like it might be explosion proof, that would be an area to investigate.Hank On Saturday, April 15, 2017 5:13 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Done, I sent you pics directly rather than through the list so I could send higher resolution. On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, can you send a picture, very interesting On Saturday, April 15, 2017 4:15 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I once had a whole box full of these 24V Red Hats, which I never used and ended up selling on eBay. I kept two of them just in case, and pulled them out just now. I believe they're an old style, they have a round body that I no longer see on the current ones, but they've never been used. Well, I just screwed a piece of pipe into one, stuck the end of the pipe in my mouth to "pressurize" the enclosure, and put it under water in the kitchen sink. No bubbles, it's properly airtight. This thing could be pressure compensated really easily.? On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have 3 of the red hat style 24V solenoid valves on the ballast tank of my ambient.? ?They work really well but they are a tiny bit more complicated than you think& are susceptible to corrosion. Be aware that the most common types of solenoidvalves use water or air pressure to help them open, & so are no good on a ballasttank.Hugh, ( who owns a valve firm ) hadn't found a suitable product when we discussedthem a few years ago.Alan Sent from my iPad On 16/04/2017, at 8:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use a lot of the new ones - the ASCO "Next Generation" Red Hat valves with 24 VDC coils. The electrical characteristics are excellent, and they perform well in any position. I just use the standard enclosures, but you can get them in NEMA 4X. Don't know how these would take to submerged / compensated use, but they would be pretty easy to modify for that purpose. The housings come with an integral 1/2 NPTF for a conduit fitting - you could easily install a Swagelok tube fitting instead for dielectric oil compensation. ASCO does make a line of solenoid valves for naval / marine use, but these have only the basic coil electronics and a plastic housing that makes them submersible to fifteen feet. Not the ideal coils for battery power though. If I could modify the housing and / or compensate to make them work, I'd be more inclined to use the Next Gen Red Hats.Sean On April 15, 2017 12:03:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I used the red hat valves on my ROV, they are very good quality, but I doubt they are air tight. ? On Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There are some Red Hat solenoid valves ! that areadvertised as submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so those could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the air suspension ones. On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water.? It comes down to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at?thousands.? An oil bath valve bank will cost ?around 500 dollars to set up.? In my mind both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary just because I don't know if it might go in salt water. ? We are happy to fill our ?motors with oil, why not electro magnets. Greg,There are tons of air suspension valves ?on Ebay with ?switch panels even. ? I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil bath it. On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Alec,If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the tanks.? You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars.? You can plumb the tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each tank (12) ? The beauty of using more valves is?safety.? If one fails, no big issue.? You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire penetrator.? The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment with and! nomodification to the tanks or sub. ?you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected.? No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another zone. ?If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two years of operation.? I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. ?If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. ? That is how my hydrau! licvalve works for my new manipulator.? It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary.? In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out.? Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath solenoids.Hank On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do! justtwo valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 15 23:10:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 03:10:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <1775867350.910182.1492274590747@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1775867350.910182.1492274590747@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1377641382.1118629.1492312219244@mail.yahoo.com> 4 psi spring return pneumatic valve for turbo applications might be an option- 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black | eBay | | | | $ 15.75 | | | | | | | 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black |... 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black | eBay Motors, Parts & Accessories,... | | | | From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Alec,You might try a Turbo blow off valve. From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 8:13 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 00:33:27 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:33:27 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments Message-ID: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm away from the LED. The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should run cooler. Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps at this stage. Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat out through the housing quicker. Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate all bubbles in the oil filling process. Will try & attach photos. Alan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 113361 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 173894 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 08:29:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 08:29:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <1377641382.1118629.1492312219244@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1775867350.910182.1492274590747@mail.yahoo.com> <1377641382.1118629.1492312219244@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That one even looks good! However, I think I've come up with a way to just re-route the tubing that should work. So long as it works, a solution with no remotely actuated valves at all wins KISS-wise, so I'll give that a try. Thanks, Alec On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > 4 psi spring return pneumatic valve for turbo applications might be an > option- > > 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black | eBay > > > $ 15.75 > 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black |... > 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black | eBay > Motors, Parts & Accessories,... > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 15, 2017 12:45 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? > > Alec, > You might try a Turbo blow off valve. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 15, 2017 8:13 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? > > Hi all, > > I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with > re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing > is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before > deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and > the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve > inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could > also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with > very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is > space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more > freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball > valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for > fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to > list-induced water blocking. > > Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, > something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 08:33:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 08:33:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Great stuff Alan! On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:33 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. > The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about > what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm > away from the LED. > The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature > out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should > run cooler. > Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. > At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps > at this stage. > Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. > At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. > At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. > So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, > maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the > heat > out through the housing quicker. > Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that > without the > oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed > especially > if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would > be a > temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be > considerably > weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in > operation. > At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a > borosilicate lens > or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard > to eliminate > all bubbles in the oil filling process. > Will try & attach photos. > Alan > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 13:43:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 07:43:46 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? Rick On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. > The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about > what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm > away from the LED. > The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature > out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should > run cooler. > Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. > At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps > at this stage. > Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. > At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. > At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. > So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, > maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the > heat > out through the housing quicker. > Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that > without the > oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed > especially > if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would > be a > temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be > considerably > weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in > operation. > At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a > borosilicate lens > or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard > to eliminate > all bubbles in the oil filling process. > Will try & attach photos. > Alan > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 16:39:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:39:12 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> Hi Rick, The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos. Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on the light coming out. The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment bolts for the LED. Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excluding wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed around the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem is how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & come down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15 times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & it just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well. I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bit more depth. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? > > Rick > >> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. >> The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about >> what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm >> away from the LED. >> The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature >> out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should >> run cooler. >> Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. >> At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps >> at this stage. >> Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. >> At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. >> At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. >> So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, >> maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat >> out through the housing quicker. >> Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the >> oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially >> if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a >> temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably >> weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. >> At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens >> or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate >> all bubbles in the oil filling process. >> Will try & attach photos. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 153529 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 18:08:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:08:21 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, Thanks for the picture. The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something? If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? Rick On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those > photos. > Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on > the light coming out. > The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the > attachment > bolts for the LED. > Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure > rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. > (excluding > wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed > around > the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was > thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem > is > how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & > come > down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need > to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them > 15 > times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & > it > just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. > I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. > The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out > well. > I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the > fins a bit > more depth. > Alan > [image: image1.JPG] > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > > Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and > back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall > thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and > such? > > Rick > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. >> The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about >> what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm >> away from the LED. >> The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature >> out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should >> run cooler. >> Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. >> At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps >> at this stage. >> Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. >> At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. >> At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. >> So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, >> maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the >> heat >> out through the housing quicker. >> Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that >> without the >> oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed >> especially >> if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there >> would be a >> temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be >> considerably >> weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in >> operation. >> At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a >> borosilicate lens >> or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard >> to eliminate >> all bubbles in the oil filling process. >> Will try & attach photos. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 153529 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 19:39:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 11:39:04 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> High Rick, to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if you went this way. Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the back that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring groove to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle section has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can be mounted in a recess. As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up & the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting section over the silicon. It should work! Pictures attached. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > Thanks for the picture. > The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something? > If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? > > Rick > >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi Rick, >> The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos. >> Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on >> the light coming out. >> The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment >> bolts for the LED. >> Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure >> rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excluding >> wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed around >> the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was >> thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem is >> how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & come >> down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need >> to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15 >> times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & it >> just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. >> I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. >> The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well. >> I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bit >> more depth. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> >>> Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? >>> >>> Rick >>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. >>>> The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about >>>> what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm >>>> away from the LED. >>>> The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature >>>> out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should >>>> run cooler. >>>> Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. >>>> At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps >>>> at this stage. >>>> Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. >>>> At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. >>>> At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. >>>> So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, >>>> maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat >>>> out through the housing quicker. >>>> Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the >>>> oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially >>>> if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a >>>> temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably >>>> weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. >>>> At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens >>>> or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate >>>> all bubbles in the oil filling process. >>>> Will try & attach photos. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 140766 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 136254 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 20:04:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 12:04:07 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> Rick, I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > High Rick, > to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it > winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if > you went this way. > Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts > seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the back > that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. > The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring groove > to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle section > has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts > are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps > the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can > be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can > be mounted in a recess. > As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have > room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I > can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up & > the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting > section over the silicon. It should work! > Pictures attached. > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Thanks for the picture. >> The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something? >> If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? >> >> Rick >> >>> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Hi Rick, >>> The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos. >>> Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on >>> the light coming out. >>> The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment >>> bolts for the LED. >>> Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure >>> rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excluding >>> wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed around >>> the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was >>> thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem is >>> how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & come >>> down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need >>> to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15 >>> times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & it >>> just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. >>> I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. >>> The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well. >>> I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bit >>> more depth. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Alan, >>>> >>>> Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. >>>>> The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about >>>>> what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm >>>>> away from the LED. >>>>> The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature >>>>> out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should >>>>> run cooler. >>>>> Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. >>>>> At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps >>>>> at this stage. >>>>> Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. >>>>> At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. >>>>> At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. >>>>> So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, >>>>> maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat >>>>> out through the housing quicker. >>>>> Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the >>>>> oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially >>>>> if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a >>>>> temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably >>>>> weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. >>>>> At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens >>>>> or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate >>>>> all bubbles in the oil filling process. >>>>> Will try & attach photos. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 20:17:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 00:17:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video References: <262030615.1485511.1492388267908.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <262030615.1485511.1492388267908@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,Just got back from test dives in Gamma, in an ice free lake. ?I made a video of the launch. ?What used to be a easy ?one man launching submarine is now ultra super easy. ?I don't even have to get out of the truck anymore. ?I took the video of the first try and had the retrieval rope screwed up, but obviously that is not an issue now that I know what to do. ?My travel thrusters are poorly positioned, they need to be strait instead of raked. ?I can't use all four motors and stay on coarse, but it is much faster.The speed controllers don't even warm up, probably because they are tight against the ice cold hull.So a ?simple motor mount change and Gamma is back in business and ready for the pressure test.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 20:19:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 00:19:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1993978535.1480351.1492388369809@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,An air bubble inside your light housing is a good thing. ?Your not oil filling for pressure, but for heat, now when the oil expands the bubble will shrink, perfect.Hank On Sunday, April 16, 2017 6:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system &have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers beingmade for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these?& a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further.Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: High Rick,to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as itwinds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times ifyou went this way.Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & boltsseizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the backthat an attachment bracket can be bolted to.The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring grooveto seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle sectionhas an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the boltsare tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clampsthe lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) canbe made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light canbe mounted in a recess.As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't haveroom for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I?can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up &?the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supportingsection over the silicon. It should work!Pictures attached.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for the picture.?The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something??If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? Rick On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos.Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect onthe light coming out.??The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment?bolts for the LED.Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressurerated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excludingwiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed aroundthe wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & wasthinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem ishow do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & comedown two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would needto fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & itjust wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires.? ?I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test.The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well.I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bitmore depth.?Alan ?? Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? Rick On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm away from the LED. The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should run cooler. Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps at this stage. Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat out through the housing quicker. Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. ? ?At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate all bubbles in the oil filling process. Will try & attach photos. Alan Sent from my iPad ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 20:52:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 14:52:55 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> Message-ID: That's a beautiful housing and looks pretty bullet proof! Did you make it yourself or have a machinist do it? Rick On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > High Rick, > to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it > winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if > you went this way. > Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts > seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the > back > that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. > The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring > groove > to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle > section > has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts > are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps > the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can > be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can > be mounted in a recess. > As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have > room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I > can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up > & > the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting > section over the silicon. It should work! > Pictures attached. > Cheers Alan > [image: image1.JPG] > > [image: image2.JPG] > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > Thanks for the picture. > The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. > Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top > view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a > sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back > plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an > 0 ring or something? > If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn > or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to > protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching > the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them > self's? > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Rick, >> The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those >> photos. >> Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on >> the light coming out. >> The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the >> attachment >> bolts for the LED. >> Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure >> rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. >> (excluding >> wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed >> around >> the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was >> thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only >> problem is >> how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & >> come >> down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need >> to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist >> them 15 >> times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff >> & it >> just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted >> wires. >> I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. >> The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out >> well. >> I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the >> fins a bit >> more depth. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alan, >> >> Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and >> back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall >> thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and >> such? >> >> Rick >> >> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. >>> The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about >>> what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm >>> away from the LED. >>> The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature >>> out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should >>> run cooler. >>> Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 >>> minutes. >>> At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps >>> at this stage. >>> Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. >>> At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. >>> At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. >>> So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, >>> maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the >>> heat >>> out through the housing quicker. >>> Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that >>> without the >>> oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed >>> especially >>> if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there >>> would be a >>> temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be >>> considerably >>> weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in >>> operation. >>> At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a >>> borosilicate lens >>> or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be >>> hard to eliminate >>> all bubbles in the oil filling process. >>> Will try & attach photos. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 140766 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 136254 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 21:14:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 20:14:25 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, your light looks like it is coming together nicely. Good job. I was looking at the pictures of the unit both the assembled unit in the sink and the disassembled unit to see what you could possibly do to reduce the array temperature. A couple of observations: Acrylic is a good thermal insulator and off course aluminum is a great thermal conductor so as you note, the back if the enclosure has got to do the bulk of the work in conducting the heat away from the array. You could increase the heat transfer rate away from the array several ways. The first is that you should flip the light in the sink so that the light comes out horizontally rather than vertically. You want the fins to be oriented vertically. Since the water is essentially static in the sink, you have to rely on natural convection to pull heat away from the fins. The concept being that as the water around and between the fins heats up, its density drops and it becomes more buoyant relative to the colder waters so it wants to go up. This sets up a natural circulation pattern. Having the fins vertically promote this flow. The second observation is your heat transfer rate would increase if you had more surface area in the fins. If you look at most of the commercial LED lights, they have more fins and they are thinner than yours. I am assuming you are using thermal grease between the array and base. IF not this would be a problem. One other point; Borosilicate glass is about nine times more thermally conducive than acrylic. This would aid in transferring more heat out the front lens. These three changes, testing with light to optimize natural convection, increasing the number of fins and reducing their thickness and switching to Borosilicate glass should drop the temperature of the array significantly. Cliff On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. > The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about > what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm > away from the LED. > The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature > out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should > run cooler. > Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. > At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps > at this stage. > Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. > At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. > At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. > So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, > maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the > heat > out through the housing quicker. > Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that > without the > oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed > especially > if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would > be a > temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be > considerably > weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in > operation. > At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a > borosilicate lens > or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard > to eliminate > all bubbles in the oil filling process. > Will try & attach photos. > Alan > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 16 23:32:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 15:32:32 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <1993978535.1480351.1492388369809@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> <1993978535.1480351.1492388369809@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1B6E7349-5C80-4FAC-82C8-9393944DA147@yahoo.com> Rick, Hank, Cliff. Rick, thanks, yes I made them. I need about 10 & was thinking of getting a shop to make them up but now I have a good process I may do them myself. Hank, yes I thought about the bubble taking up the oil expansion. I am leaning heavily toward toward a borosilicate lens so probably won't fill with oil. As Cliff says, the borosilicate lens will transfer any heat out the front a lot better than the acrylic lens. Cliff, thanks for those points. The housing is keeping cool so I am reluctant to put in more fins. There is an extra fin on the latest photo I sent. I would need to make up another tool for the grooves, & where the drill holes run through the fins I can end up with burs that would be more difficult to remove with a smaller gap. The problem is that the heat out the front may weaken the acrylic lens. Even though oil filling is a solution, I am going to try a borosilicate lens. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 17/04/2017, at 12:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > An air bubble inside your light housing is a good thing. Your not oil filling for pressure, but for heat, now when the oil expands the bubble will shrink, perfect. > Hank > > > On Sunday, April 16, 2017 6:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Rick, > I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & > have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being > made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these > & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > High Rick, > to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it > winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if > you went this way. > Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts > seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the back > that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. > The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring groove > to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle section > has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts > are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps > the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can > be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can > be mounted in a recess. > As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have > room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I > can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up & > the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting > section over the silicon. It should work! > Pictures attached. > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Thanks for the picture. >> The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something? >> If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? >> >> Rick >> >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi Rick, >> The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos. >> Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on >> the light coming out. >> The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment >> bolts for the LED. >> Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure >> rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excluding >> wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed around >> the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was >> thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem is >> how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & come >> down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need >> to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15 >> times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & it >> just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. >> I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. >> The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well. >> I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bit >> more depth. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> >>> Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. >>> The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about >>> what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm >>> away from the LED. >>> The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature >>> out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should >>> run cooler. >>> Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. >>> At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps >>> at this stage. >>> Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. >>> At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. >>> At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. >>> So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, >>> maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat >>> out through the housing quicker. >>> Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the >>> oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially >>> if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a >>> temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably >>> weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. >>> At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens >>> or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate >>> all bubbles in the oil filling process. >>> Will try & attach photos. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 17 02:09:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 23:09:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments Message-ID: <20170416230951.692AE7DD@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 17 03:57:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 19:57:33 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <20170416230951.692AE7DD@m0087791.ppops.net> References: <20170416230951.692AE7DD@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: <7EEDF220-B9C5-4CE8-9046-E111093C7778@yahoo.com> Thanks Brian, it is still a work in process. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 17/04/2017, at 6:09 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Nice design Alan, I will really need a few of these puppies at some point ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments > Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 15:32:32 +1200 > > Rick, Hank, Cliff. > Rick, thanks, yes I made them. I need about 10 & was thinking of getting a > shop to make them up but now I have a good process I may do them myself. > Hank, yes I thought about the bubble taking up the oil expansion. I am leaning > heavily toward toward a borosilicate lens so probably won't fill with oil. As > Cliff says, the borosilicate lens will transfer any heat out the front a lot better than > the acrylic lens. > Cliff, thanks for those points. The housing is keeping cool so I am reluctant > to put in more fins. There is an extra fin on the latest photo I sent. I would need > to make up another tool for the grooves, & where the drill holes run through the > fins I can end up with burs that would be more difficult to remove with a smaller > gap. The problem is that the heat out the front may weaken the acrylic lens. > Even though oil filling is a solution, I am going to try a borosilicate lens. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 12:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > An air bubble inside your light housing is a good thing. Your not oil filling for pressure, but for heat, now when the oil expands the bubble will shrink, perfect. > Hank > > > On Sunday, April 16, 2017 6:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Rick, > I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & > have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being > made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these > & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > High Rick, > to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it > winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if > you went this way. > Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts > seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the back > that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. > The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring groove > to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle section > has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts > are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps > the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can > be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can > be mounted in a recess. > As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have > room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I > can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up & > the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting > section over the silicon. It should work! > Pictures attached. > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > Thanks for the picture. > The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something? > If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Rick, > The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos. > Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on > the light coming out. > The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment > bolts for the LED. > Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure > rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excluding > wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed around > the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was > thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem is > how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & come > down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need > to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15 > times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & it > just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. > I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. > The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well. > I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bit > more depth. > Alan > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? > > Rick > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. > The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about > what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm > away from the LED. > The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature > out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should > run cooler. > Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. > At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps > at this stage. > Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. > At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. > At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. > So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, > maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat > out through the housing quicker. > Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the > oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially > if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a > temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably > weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. > At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens > or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate > all bubbles in the oil filling process. > Will try & attach photos. > Alan > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 17 14:19:54 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:19:54 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & > have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being > made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these > & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > High Rick, > to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it > winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if > you went this way. > Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts > seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the > back > that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. > The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring > groove > to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle > section > has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts > are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps > the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can > be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can > be mounted in a recess. > As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have > room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I > can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up > & > the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting > section over the silicon. It should work! > Pictures attached. > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > Thanks for the picture. > The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. > Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top > view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a > sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back > plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an > 0 ring or something? > If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn > or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to > protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching > the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them > self's? > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Rick, >> The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those >> photos. >> Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on >> the light coming out. >> The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the >> attachment >> bolts for the LED. >> Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure >> rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. >> (excluding >> wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed >> around >> the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was >> thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only >> problem is >> how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & >> come >> down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need >> to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist >> them 15 >> times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff >> & it >> just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted >> wires. >> I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. >> The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out >> well. >> I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the >> fins a bit >> more depth. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alan, >> >> Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and >> back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall >> thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and >> such? >> >> Rick >> >> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. >>> The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about >>> what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm >>> away from the LED. >>> The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature >>> out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should >>> run cooler. >>> Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 >>> minutes. >>> At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps >>> at this stage. >>> Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. >>> At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. >>> At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. >>> So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, >>> maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the >>> heat >>> out through the housing quicker. >>> Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that >>> without the >>> oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed >>> especially >>> if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there >>> would be a >>> temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be >>> considerably >>> weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in >>> operation. >>> At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a >>> borosilicate lens >>> or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be >>> hard to eliminate >>> all bubbles in the oil filling process. >>> Will try & attach photos. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 17 16:27:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 22:27:20 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <040c01d2b7b9$03f18b80$0bd4a280$@nl> Alec, Get my lamp glass here: http://shop.dev-pein.de/Selbstbau/Glaeser/ They are not as brittle as you mention. Br, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 17 april 2017 20:20 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments Hi Alan, The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: High Rick, to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if you went this way. Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the back that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring groove to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle section has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can be mounted in a recess. As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up & the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting section over the silicon. It should work! Pictures attached. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for the picture. The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something? If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? Rick On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos. Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on the light coming out. The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment bolts for the LED. Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excluding wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed around the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem is how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & come down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15 times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & it just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well. I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bit more depth. Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? Rick On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm away from the LED. The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should run cooler. Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps at this stage. Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat out through the housing quicker. Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate all bubbles in the oil filling process. Will try & attach photos. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 17 16:46:37 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 16:46:37 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <040c01d2b7b9$03f18b80$0bd4a280$@nl> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> <040c01d2b7b9$03f18b80$0bd4a280$@nl> Message-ID: Thanks Emile. By now maybe I've got the hand of it, but if they keep breaking I'll give those a try instead. On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:27 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > > > > Get my lamp glass here: > > http://shop.dev-pein.de/Selbstbau/Glaeser/ > > They are not as brittle as you mention. > > > > Br, Emile > > > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > *Verzonden:* maandag 17 april 2017 20:20 > *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Onderwerp:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful > reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to > temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just > look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other > light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. > > > > Best, > > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > > I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & > > have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being > > made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these > > & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. > > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > High Rick, > > to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it > > winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if > > you went this way. > > Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts > > seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the > back > > that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. > > The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring > groove > > to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle > section > > has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts > > are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps > > the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can > > be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can > > be mounted in a recess. > > As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have > > room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I > > can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up > & > > the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting > > section over the silicon. It should work! > > Pictures attached. > > Cheers Alan > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > > > Thanks for the picture. > > The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. > Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top > view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a > sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back > plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an > 0 ring or something? > > If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn > or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to > protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching > the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them > self's? > > > > Rick > > > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, > > The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those > photos. > > Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on > > the light coming out. > > The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the > attachment > > bolts for the LED. > > Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure > > rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. > (excluding > > wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed > around > > the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was > > thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem > is > > how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & > come > > down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need > > to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them > 15 > > times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & > it > > just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. > > I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. > > The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out > well. > > I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the > fins a bit > > more depth. > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > > > > Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and > back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall > thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and > such? > > > > Rick > > > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. > The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about > what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm > away from the LED. > The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature > out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should > run cooler. > Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. > At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps > at this stage. > Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. > At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. > At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. > So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, > maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the > heat > out through the housing quicker. > Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that > without the > oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed > especially > if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would > be a > temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be > considerably > weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in > operation. > At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a > borosilicate lens > or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard > to eliminate > all bubbles in the oil filling process. > Will try & attach photos. > Alan > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 17 17:14:09 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 09:14:09 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10F28694-E25D-46E6-94DC-1E61D075A2A1@yahoo.com> Thanks Alec, were they tempered borosilicate? I noted on the Mc Master Carr site that under "Pressure Rated Borosilicate Glass Discs" they had Annealed & Tempered options. The tempered glass was 3 times stronger. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/04/2017, at 6:19 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. > > Best, > > Alec > >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Rick, >> I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & >> have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being >> made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these >> & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> High Rick, >>> to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it >>> winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if >>> you went this way. >>> Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts >>> seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the back >>> that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. >>> The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring groove >>> to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle section >>> has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts >>> are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps >>> the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can >>> be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can >>> be mounted in a recess. >>> As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have >>> room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I >>> can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up & >>> the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting >>> section over the silicon. It should work! >>> Pictures attached. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Alan, >>>> >>>> Thanks for the picture. >>>> The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something? >>>> If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> Hi Rick, >>>>> The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos. >>>>> Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on >>>>> the light coming out. >>>>> The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment >>>>> bolts for the LED. >>>>> Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure >>>>> rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excluding >>>>> wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed around >>>>> the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was >>>>> thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem is >>>>> how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & come >>>>> down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need >>>>> to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15 >>>>> times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & it >>>>> just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. >>>>> I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. >>>>> The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well. >>>>> I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bit >>>>> more depth. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>>> On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Alan, >>>>>> >>>>>> Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? >>>>>> >>>>>> Rick >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. >>>>>>> The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about >>>>>>> what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm >>>>>>> away from the LED. >>>>>>> The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature >>>>>>> out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should >>>>>>> run cooler. >>>>>>> Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. >>>>>>> At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps >>>>>>> at this stage. >>>>>>> Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. >>>>>>> At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. >>>>>>> At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. >>>>>>> So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, >>>>>>> maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat >>>>>>> out through the housing quicker. >>>>>>> Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the >>>>>>> oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially >>>>>>> if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a >>>>>>> temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably >>>>>>> weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. >>>>>>> At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens >>>>>>> or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate >>>>>>> all bubbles in the oil filling process. >>>>>>> Will try & attach photos. >>>>>>> Alan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 17 17:26:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 09:26:05 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <040c01d2b7b9$03f18b80$0bd4a280$@nl> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> <040c01d2b7b9$03f18b80$0bd4a280$@nl> Message-ID: <37BF3E07-E0C1-4E0C-A9AC-CB42E47D4A02@yahoo.com> Emile, that is a good site especially when you copy & paste into Google translator. Do you know the strength rating of the borosilicate? Is it tempered ? I need 60mm diameter & I think the thickness I require is 10mm for tempered borosilicate. They have a stock item 60 x 10. Although my required diameter is 60mm the unsupported diameter is 37mm. Sub build is for 500 ft so want the glass to withstand 500psi. A good thing is they say the edges are rounded & I need to push the lens through an o-ring that seals on the side. I guess I can buy them & smash them like Alec does if I am not sure of their strength. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/04/2017, at 8:27 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, > > Get my lamp glass here: > http://shop.dev-pein.de/Selbstbau/Glaeser/ > They are not as brittle as you mention. > > Br, Emile > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: maandag 17 april 2017 20:20 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments > > Hi Alan, > > The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick, > I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & > have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being > made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these > & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > High Rick, > to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it > winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if > you went this way. > Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts > seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the back > that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. > The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring groove > to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle section > has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts > are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps > the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can > be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can > be mounted in a recess. > As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have > room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I > can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up & > the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting > section over the silicon. It should work! > Pictures attached. > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > Thanks for the picture. > The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something? > If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Rick, > The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos. > Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on > the light coming out. > The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment > bolts for the LED. > Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure > rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excluding > wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed around > the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was > thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem is > how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & come > down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need > to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15 > times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & it > just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. > I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. > The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well. > I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bit > more depth. > Alan > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? > > Rick > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. > The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about > what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm > away from the LED. > The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature > out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should > run cooler. > Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. > At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps > at this stage. > Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. > At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. > At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. > So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, > maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat > out through the housing quicker. > Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the > oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially > if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a > temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably > weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. > At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens > or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate > all bubbles in the oil filling process. > Will try & attach photos. > Alan > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 17 19:13:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 18:13:45 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alec, not sure what is going on with the borsilicate glass lens. the version I use is the McAMster carr part number 8477k48. I have installed two of these in my first set of lights and have never had one break. I have two more of these lights being machined as we speak. Again no breakage issue. Were the failures when the lights were turned on or during assembly? IF you look at the fabrication tolerance for these annealed glass disk, its +/- 0.015" for a 2" disk so if you got one that was on the high side of this tolerance such that the fit became tight, could be a thermal expansion issue as the lens could get hotter than the aluminum case. Cliff On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Alan, > > The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful > reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to > temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just > look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other > light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Rick, >> I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & >> have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being >> made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these >> & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> High Rick, >> to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it >> winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times >> if >> you went this way. >> Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & >> bolts >> seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the >> back >> that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. >> The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring >> groove >> to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle >> section >> has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts >> are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps >> the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) >> can >> be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can >> be mounted in a recess. >> As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have >> room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I >> can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch >> up & >> the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting >> section over the silicon. It should work! >> Pictures attached. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Thanks for the picture. >> The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. >> Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top >> view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a >> sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back >> plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an >> 0 ring or something? >> If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn >> or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to >> protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching >> the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them >> self's? >> >> Rick >> >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Rick, >>> The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those >>> photos. >>> Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on >>> the light coming out. >>> The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the >>> attachment >>> bolts for the LED. >>> Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure >>> rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. >>> (excluding >>> wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed >>> around >>> the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & >>> was >>> thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only >>> problem is >>> how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED >>> & come >>> down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need >>> to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist >>> them 15 >>> times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff >>> & it >>> just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted >>> wires. >>> I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. >>> The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out >>> well. >>> I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the >>> fins a bit >>> more depth. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> >>> Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side >>> and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like >>> wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the >>> back and such? >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. >>>> The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about >>>> what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm >>>> away from the LED. >>>> The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature >>>> out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should >>>> run cooler. >>>> Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 >>>> minutes. >>>> At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the >>>> amps >>>> at this stage. >>>> Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. >>>> At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. >>>> At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. >>>> So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, >>>> maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the >>>> heat >>>> out through the housing quicker. >>>> Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that >>>> without the >>>> oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed >>>> especially >>>> if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there >>>> would be a >>>> temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be >>>> considerably >>>> weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi >>>> in operation. >>>> At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a >>>> borosilicate lens >>>> or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be >>>> hard to eliminate >>>> all bubbles in the oil filling process. >>>> Will try & attach photos. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 17 19:42:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 23:42:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <247507.2218494.1492472520763@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,if I remember rightly you had a gasket on top of the lens between the lens & the top retaining ring. That would give you a bit of tolerance when bolting the ringdown if the lens is slightly below the ring / housing mating surface. Perhaps a thicker gasket & deeper lens seat will give more room for error!?? Just had a look at one of my commercial pool lights & the lens is proud ofthe housing with a gasket on top & underneath the lens; so the glass is seeing all the force of the screw down retaining ring. In this case the the ring,being screwed on like a jam jar lid, is not exerting anywhere near the forceyou would get with the cap screws.Alan From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments Alec, not sure what is going on with the borsilicate glass lens.? the version I use is the McAMster carr part number 8477k48.? I have installed two of these in my first set of lights and have never had one break.? I have two more of these lights being machined as we speak.? Again no breakage issue.? Were the failures when the lights were turned on or during assembly?? IF you look at the fabrication tolerance for these annealed glass disk, its +/- 0.015" for a 2" disk so if you got one that was on the high side of this tolerance such that the fit became tight, could be a thermal expansion issue as the lens could get hotter than the aluminum case. Cliff On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system &have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers beingmade for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these?& a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further.Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: High Rick,to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as itwinds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times ifyou went this way.Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & boltsseizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the backthat an attachment bracket can be bolted to.The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring grooveto seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle sectionhas an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the boltsare tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clampsthe lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) canbe made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light canbe mounted in a recess.As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't haveroom for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I?can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up &?the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supportingsection over the silicon. It should work!Pictures attached.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for the picture.?The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something??If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? Rick On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos.Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect onthe light coming out.??The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment?bolts for the LED.Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressurerated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excludingwiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed aroundthe wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & wasthinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem ishow do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & comedown two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would needto fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & itjust wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires.? ?I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test.The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well.I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bitmore depth.?Alan ?? Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? Rick On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm away from the LED. The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should run cooler. Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps at this stage. Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat out through the housing quicker. Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. ? ?At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate all bubbles in the oil filling process. Will try & attach photos. Alan Sent from my iPad ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 17 20:21:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 20:21:10 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <10F28694-E25D-46E6-94DC-1E61D075A2A1@yahoo.com> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> <10F28694-E25D-46E6-94DC-1E61D075A2A1@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting, I don't see the tempered option. The ones I have are annealed. They're McMaster item #8477K48. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Alec, > were they tempered borosilicate? I noted on the Mc Master Carr site that > under "Pressure Rated Borosilicate Glass Discs" they had Annealed & > Tempered > options. The tempered glass was 3 times stronger. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 18/04/2017, at 6:19 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful > reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to > temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just > look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other > light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Rick, >> I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & >> have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being >> made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these >> & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> High Rick, >> to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it >> winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times >> if >> you went this way. >> Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & >> bolts >> seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the >> back >> that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. >> The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring >> groove >> to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle >> section >> has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts >> are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps >> the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) >> can >> be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can >> be mounted in a recess. >> As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have >> room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I >> can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch >> up & >> the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting >> section over the silicon. It should work! >> Pictures attached. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Thanks for the picture. >> The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. >> Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top >> view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a >> sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back >> plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an >> 0 ring or something? >> If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn >> or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to >> protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching >> the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them >> self's? >> >> Rick >> >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Rick, >>> The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those >>> photos. >>> Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on >>> the light coming out. >>> The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the >>> attachment >>> bolts for the LED. >>> Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure >>> rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. >>> (excluding >>> wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed >>> around >>> the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & >>> was >>> thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only >>> problem is >>> how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED >>> & come >>> down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need >>> to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist >>> them 15 >>> times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff >>> & it >>> just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted >>> wires. >>> I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. >>> The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out >>> well. >>> I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the >>> fins a bit >>> more depth. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> >>> Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side >>> and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like >>> wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the >>> back and such? >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. >>>> The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about >>>> what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm >>>> away from the LED. >>>> The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature >>>> out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should >>>> run cooler. >>>> Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 >>>> minutes. >>>> At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the >>>> amps >>>> at this stage. >>>> Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. >>>> At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. >>>> At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. >>>> So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, >>>> maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the >>>> heat >>>> out through the housing quicker. >>>> Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that >>>> without the >>>> oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed >>>> especially >>>> if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there >>>> would be a >>>> temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be >>>> considerably >>>> weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi >>>> in operation. >>>> At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a >>>> borosilicate lens >>>> or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be >>>> hard to eliminate >>>> all bubbles in the oil filling process. >>>> Will try & attach photos. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 17 20:36:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 00:36:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> <10F28694-E25D-46E6-94DC-1E61D075A2A1@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <503816331.2292760.1492475803242@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,they start at 3&1/2".?I am not sure what thickness you are using but?it looks like you could go a lot thinner with the tempered glass if you can find it in the diameter you want. Pressure-Rated?Borosilicate Glass Discs - Color:?Clear - Max.?Temperature:?See table - Fabrication:?See table Commonly used as sight?glass.?Also called Pyrex and Schott?glass,?borosilicate glass resists clouding and pitting and is highly chemical and heat?resistant.?With a low rate of thermal?expansion,?it stays dimensionally stable during changes in?temperature.Tempered?glass is stronger than annealed?glass. | Dia. | Dia.?Tolerance | Lg. | Lg.?Tolerance | Max. Pressure,?psi | Max. Temperature,??F | Edge Fabrication | Specifications Met | ? | Each | | Annealed Glass | | 3?1/2" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 175 | 445? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K71 | $38.37 | | 4" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 150 | 445? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K72 | 42.30 | | 4?1/2" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/8" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 35 | 445? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K39 | 44.71 | | 5" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 100 | 445? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K42 | 66.44 | | 6" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 75 | 445? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K43 | 82.68 | | 6?3/4" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 60 | 445? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K44 | 97.02 | | 8?3/8" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 40 | 445? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K45 | 138.12 | | Tempered Glass | | 3?1/2" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 525 | 500? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K81 | 48.66 | | 4" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 450 | 500? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K82 | 64.24 | | 4?1/2" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/8" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 105 | 500? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K83 | 74.84 | | 5" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 300 | 500? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K84 | 101.82 | | 6" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 225 | 500? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K63 | 132.02 | | 6?3/4" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 180 | 500? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K64 | 151.60 | | 8?3/8" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 120 | 500? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K65 | 197.14 | | 9" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 105 | 500? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K66 | 211.37 | | 10" | -0.015" to 0.015" | 3/4" | -0.031" to 0.031" | 85 | 500? | Ground | MIL-G-47033 | 8475K67 | 221.78 | Alan From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments Interesting, I don't see the tempered option. The ones I have are annealed. They're McMaster item #8477K48. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Alec,were they tempered borosilicate? I noted on the Mc Master Carr site thatunder "Pressure ?Rated Borosilicate Glass Discs" they had Annealed & Temperedoptions. The tempered glass was 3 times stronger.Alan Sent from my iPad On 18/04/2017, at 6:19 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system &have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers beingmade for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these?& a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further.Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: High Rick,to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as itwinds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times ifyou went this way.Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & boltsseizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the backthat an attachment bracket can be bolted to.The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring grooveto seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle sectionhas an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the boltsare tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clampsthe lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) canbe made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light canbe mounted in a recess.As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't haveroom for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I?can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up &?the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supportingsection over the silicon. It should work!Pictures attached.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for the picture.?The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something??If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? Rick On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos.Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect onthe light coming out.??The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment?bolts for the LED.Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressurerated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excludingwiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed aroundthe wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & wasthinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem ishow do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & comedown two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would needto fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & itjust wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires.? ?I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test.The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well.I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bitmore depth.?Alan ?? Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? Rick On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm away from the LED. The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should run cooler. Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps at this stage. Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat out through the housing quicker. Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. ? ?At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate all bubbles in the oil filling process. Will try & attach photos. Alan Sent from my iPad ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 17 21:47:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 15:47:06 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aluminum tanks for 02 Message-ID: Going to be buying two new aluminum 80 cu ft scuba tanks soon and was told by a dive shop that they won't need to be 02 cleaned if they are new and have never been used. Does anyone know if that is true? Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 18 16:39:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 08:39:29 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <1377641382.1118629.1492312219244@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1775867350.910182.1492274590747@mail.yahoo.com> <1377641382.1118629.1492312219244@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <053201d2b883$e3190520$a94b0f60$@gmail.com> James, That blow off valve is operated by vacuum assisted by excess pressure (4psi or x ). It would be a cheap safety valve but can?t see it working for MBT s. Am I missing something? Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, 16 April 2017 3:10 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? 4 psi spring return pneumatic valve for turbo applications might be an option- 1 " 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black | eBay Text Box: $ 15.75 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black |... 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black | eBay Motors, Parts & Accessories,... _____ From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Alec, You might try a Turbo blow off valve. _____ From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 8:13 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking. Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 12642 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 1196 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 18 16:45:49 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 16:45:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <053201d2b883$e3190520$a94b0f60$@gmail.com> References: <1775867350.910182.1492274590747@mail.yahoo.com> <1377641382.1118629.1492312219244@mail.yahoo.com> <053201d2b883$e3190520$a94b0f60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hugh! In the end I think I've found a way to reroute the tubing that will keep it simple and use only the ball valves. Will be implementing this and retesting in a week or two. Best, Alec > On Apr 18, 2017, at 4:39 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > James, > That blow off valve is operated by vacuum assisted by excess pressure (4psi or x ). It would be a cheap safety valve but can?t see it working for MBT s. > Am I missing something? Hugh > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, 16 April 2017 3:10 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? > > 4 psi spring return pneumatic valve for turbo applications might be an option- > > 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black | eBay > > > > > > > 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black |... > 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black | eBay Motors, Parts & Accessories,... > > > > From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 12:45 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? > > Alec, > You might try a Turbo blow off valve. > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 8:13 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? > > Hi all, > > I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking. > > Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 18 17:27:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 09:27:15 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <0A1FC018-AB2B-434E-9093-D551D281DC3F@yahoo.com> References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> <0A1FC018-AB2B-434E-9093-D551D281DC3F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <058601d2b88a$8f542620$adfc7260$@gmail.com> There are 2 styles of solenoid valves, Pilot operated and direct acting. The pilot operated ones need a differential and are mostly unsuitable for getting the last bit of air out. You need direct acting solenoid valves. I have one from Parker. There are also co-axial valves which are direct acting and ideal for the use but all have the same issues with the solenoid coil. Most coils these days are enclosed in plastic but have an issue where the wires go in. One fix maybe to pot the top of the solenoid valve. Mine on the Comsub are all immersed in an oil bath. New sub I am using air actuated shuttle (co-axial) valves. We have just developed a ?? SS shuttle valve for 7500 psi gas operated by 6-7 bar ( 100 psi ) operating pilot pressure. Our valves are mostly all balanced. www.eclipsevalves.com We would certainly do a deal for P-subbers. Chs, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, 16 April 2017 9:43 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? I have 3 of the red hat style 24V solenoid valves on the ballast tank of my ambient. They work really well but they are a tiny bit more complicated than you think & are susceptible to corrosion. Be aware that the most common types of solenoid valves use water or air pressure to help them open, & so are no good on a ballast tank. Hugh, ( who owns a valve firm ) hadn't found a suitable product when we discussed them a few years ago. Alan Sent from my iPad On 16/04/2017, at 8:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use a lot of the new ones - the ASCO "Next Generation" Red Hat valves with 24 VDC coils. The electrical characteristics are excellent, and they perform well in any position. I just use the standard enclosures, but you can get them in NEMA 4X. Don't know how these would take to submerged / compensated use, but they would be pretty easy to modify for that purpose. The housings come with an integral 1/2 NPTF for a conduit fitting - you could easily install a Swagelok tube fitting instead for dielectric oil compensation. ASCO does make a line of solenoid valves for naval / marine use, but these have only the basic coil electronics and a plastic housing that makes them submersible to fifteen feet. Not the ideal coils for battery power though. If I could modify the housing and / or compensate to make them work, I'd be more inclined to use the Next Gen Red Hats. Sean On April 15, 2017 12:03:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I used the red hat valves on my ROV, they are very good quality, but I doubt they are air tight. On Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There are some Red Hat solenoid valves ! that are advertised as submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so those could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the air suspension ones. On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water. It comes down to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at thousands. An oil bath valve bank will cost around 500 dollars to set up. In my mind both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary just because I don't know if it might go in salt water. We are happy to fill our motors with oil, why not electro magnets. Greg, There are tons of air suspension valves on Ebay with switch panels even. I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil bath it. On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hank, Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Alec, If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the tanks. You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. You can plumb the tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each tank (12) The beauty of using more valves is safety. If one fails, no big issue. You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire penetrator. The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment with and! no modification to the tanks or sub. you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected. No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another zone. If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two years of operation. I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. That is how my hydrau! lic valve works for my new manipulator. It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary. In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out. Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath solenoids. Hank On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do! just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking. Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _____ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 18 17:57:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 14:57:39 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] fuse Message-ID: <20170418145739.692B826B@m0087791.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 18 17:58:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 09:58:18 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: <058601d2b88a$8f542620$adfc7260$@gmail.com> References: <1902099674.881443.1492267092320@mail.yahoo.com> <1920998472.890320.1492274680619@mail.yahoo.com> <825322788.970203.1492277278124@mail.yahoo.com> <0A1FC018-AB2B-434E-9093-D551D281DC3F@yahoo.com> <058601d2b88a$8f542620$adfc7260$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Looks good Hugh, you might be able to mount them horizontally with a bend attaching to the ballast tank. I have bought a few of these stainless filters locally that would be a good addition if used as a ballast valve. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 19/04/2017, at 9:27 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > There are 2 styles of solenoid valves, Pilot operated and direct acting. The pilot operated ones need a differential and are mostly unsuitable for getting the last bit of air out. You need direct acting solenoid valves. I have one from Parker. There are also co-axial valves which are direct acting and ideal for the use but all have the same issues with the solenoid coil. Most coils these days are enclosed in plastic but have an issue where the wires go in. One fix maybe to pot the top of the solenoid valve. Mine on the Comsub are all immersed in an oil bath. New sub I am using air actuated shuttle (co-axial) valves. We have just developed a ?? SS shuttle valve for 7500 psi gas operated by 6-7 bar ( 100 psi ) operating pilot pressure. Our valves are mostly all balanced. www.eclipsevalves.com We would certainly do a deal for P-subbers. > Chs, Hugh > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, 16 April 2017 9:43 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? > > I have 3 of the red hat style 24V solenoid valves on the ballast tank of my ambient. > They work really well but they are a tiny bit more complicated than you think > & are susceptible to corrosion. Be aware that the most common types of solenoid > valves use water or air pressure to help them open, & so are no good on a ballast > tank. > Hugh, ( who owns a valve firm ) hadn't found a suitable product when we discussed > them a few years ago. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 16/04/2017, at 8:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I use a lot of the new ones - the ASCO "Next Generation" Red Hat valves with 24 VDC coils. The electrical characteristics are excellent, and they perform well in any position. I just use the standard enclosures, but you can get them in NEMA 4X. Don't know how these would take to submerged / compensated use, but they would be pretty easy to modify for that purpose. The housings come with an integral 1/2 NPTF for a conduit fitting - you could easily install a Swagelok tube fitting instead for dielectric oil compensation. ASCO does make a line of solenoid valves for naval / marine use, but these have only the basic coil electronics and a plastic housing that makes them submersible to fifteen feet. Not the ideal coils for battery power though. If I could modify the housing and / or compensate to make them work, I'd be more inclined to use the Next Gen Red Hats. > > Sean > > > > On April 15, 2017 12:03:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I used the red hat valves on my ROV, they are very good quality, but I doubt they are air tight. > > > On Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > There are some Red Hat solenoid valves ! that are advertised as submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so those could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the air suspension ones. > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec, > The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water. It comes down to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at thousands. An oil bath valve bank will cost around 500 dollars to set up. In my mind both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary just because I don't know if it might go in salt water. We are happy to fill our motors with oil, why not electro magnets. > > Greg, > There are tons of air suspension valves on Ebay with switch panels even. I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil bath it. > > > > On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg. > > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? > > Alec, > If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the tanks. You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. You can plumb the tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each tank (12) The beauty of using more valves is safety. If one fails, no big issue. You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire penetrator. The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment with and! no modification to the tanks or sub. > you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected. No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another zone. > If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two years of operation. I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. > If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. That is how my hydrau! lic valve works for my new manipulator. It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary. In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out. Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath solenoids. > Hank > > > On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do! just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking. > > Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10562 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 18 22:28:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 02:28:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light housing gaskets References: <1253084296.3436455.1492568901163.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1253084296.3436455.1492568901163@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff & Alec,just ordering 20 tempered borosilicate lenses at $2-50 each including postage!They will go in the pressure chamber, so I'll know whether I got good value.Just wondering what you guys used as gaskets under the lens.I did have an o-ring under the acrylic lens but are putting a gasket under the glass.I have an o-ring in the bore of the lens housing but would like my gasket to be a secondary seal as well as seat.Alec, with your experience of lenses breaking, I am looking at a suitable thicknessof neoprene or similar for the top gasket that I can compress to half it's thickness when bolting the housing together. This will give me a bit of machining tolerance.see attachmentAlan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Light gaskets.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 89546 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 18 22:45:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 14:45:17 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light housing gaskets In-Reply-To: <1253084296.3436455.1492568901163@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1253084296.3436455.1492568901163.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1253084296.3436455.1492568901163@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <061801d2b8b6$fd938d70$f8baa850$@gmail.com> Alan I suggest you reduce the height of the main body and add it to the bottom piece with more grooves. As you will no doubt be anodising you will not get as good transfer of heat through the joint. Also if possible move the face O?ring to the outside more as water gets between the faces and corrodes. Are you using heat transfer paste? Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 19 April 2017 2:28 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light housing gaskets Cliff & Alec, just ordering 20 tempered borosilicate lenses at $2-50 each including postage! They will go in the pressure chamber, so I'll know whether I got good value. Just wondering what you guys used as gaskets under the lens. I did have an o-ring under the acrylic lens but are putting a gasket under the glass. I have an o-ring in the bore of the lens housing but would like my gasket to be a secondary seal as well as seat. Alec, with your experience of lenses breaking, I am looking at a suitable thickness of neoprene or similar for the top gasket that I can compress to half it's thickness when bolting the housing together. This will give me a bit of machining tolerance. see attachment Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 18 23:10:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 15:10:26 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light housing gaskets In-Reply-To: <061801d2b8b6$fd938d70$f8baa850$@gmail.com> References: <1253084296.3436455.1492568901163.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1253084296.3436455.1492568901163@mail.yahoo.com> <061801d2b8b6$fd938d70$f8baa850$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Hugh, yes am using heat paste under the LED. Should I be using it between the base & middle housing on assembly? The drawing is not quite right & I am taking the fins up as far as I can. The light has kept cool when testing in the sink. Good point about the o-ring height. I was hoping the top gasket might seal if it was compressed to half during assembly. Maybe if I syringed vasaline in to the gap above the o-ring in assembly it would help. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 19/04/2017, at 2:45 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan I suggest you reduce the height of the main body and add it to the bottom piece with more grooves. > As you will no doubt be anodising you will not get as good transfer of heat through the joint. > Also if possible move the face O?ring to the outside more as water gets between the faces and corrodes. > Are you using heat transfer paste? > Hugh > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, 19 April 2017 2:28 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light housing gaskets > > Cliff & Alec, > just ordering 20 tempered borosilicate lenses at $2-50 each including postage! > They will go in the pressure chamber, so I'll know whether I got good value. > Just wondering what you guys used as gaskets under the lens. > I did have an o-ring under the acrylic lens but are putting a gasket under the glass. > I have an o-ring in the bore of the lens housing but would like my gasket to be a > secondary seal as well as seat. > Alec, with your experience of lenses breaking, I am looking at a suitable thickness > of neoprene or similar for the top gasket that I can compress to half it's thickness > when bolting the housing together. This will give me a bit of machining tolerance. > see attachment > Alan > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 18 23:44:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 15:44:45 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] fuse In-Reply-To: <20170418145739.692B826B@m0087791.ppops.net> References: <20170418145739.692B826B@m0087791.ppops.net> Message-ID: <6B09480E-3F5C-44D7-9DA1-C07CDB5467A1@yahoo.com> Hi Brian, the controller should be able to handle stall conditions especially if it came out of a golf cart. You may want to look up an installation diagram for them. Sometimes you need a resister in the system to limit inrush current to the controllers capacitors. Have you got the book " The 12V bible for boats"? I have a copy & several other Psubbers have recommended it in the past. You should have a large circuit-breaker/ fuse on the positive lead from your battery before your main power switch. This will have to take your fullest possible load, i.e. all motors on full power + lights etc on. Then you will have circuit breakers on all your individual systems like propulsion, lighting, etc. Alan Also you don't want a potential short anywhere melting wires. Sent from my iPad > On 19/04/2017, at 9:57 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > I'm planning on having a fuse off my positive battery terminal. Do I need any additional fuses anywhere? Can that controller get overwhelmed some how? Also can I use a AC fuse in a DC system? I assume I would use a fuse rated at a little above the starting current of my motor. > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 19 03:04:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 09:04:05 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <37BF3E07-E0C1-4E0C-A9AC-CB42E47D4A02@yahoo.com> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> <040c01d2b7b9$03f18b80$0bd4a280$@nl> <37BF3E07-E0C1-4E0C-A9AC-CB42E47D4A02@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007601d2b8db$220ece70$662c6b50$@nl> Alan, Guess it is tempered. I tested my lamp with a 90x10 mm disk to 80 Bar without breaking. 60x10 could be tested to 100-120 Bar! The reflectors are also from Dev Pein.de Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 17 april 2017 23:26 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments Emile, that is a good site especially when you copy & paste into Google translator. Do you know the strength rating of the borosilicate? Is it tempered ? I need 60mm diameter & I think the thickness I require is 10mm for tempered borosilicate. They have a stock item 60 x 10. Although my required diameter is 60mm the unsupported diameter is 37mm. Sub build is for 500 ft so want the glass to withstand 500psi. A good thing is they say the edges are rounded & I need to push the lens through an o-ring that seals on the side. I guess I can buy them & smash them like Alec does if I am not sure of their strength. Alan Sent from my iPad On 18/04/2017, at 8:27 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, Get my lamp glass here: http://shop.dev-pein.de/Selbstbau/Glaeser/ They are not as brittle as you mention. Br, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 17 april 2017 20:20 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments Hi Alan, The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: High Rick, to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if you went this way. Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the back that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring groove to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle section has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can be mounted in a recess. As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up & the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting section over the silicon. It should work! Pictures attached. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Thanks for the picture. The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something? If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? Rick On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos. Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on the light coming out. The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment bolts for the LED. Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excluding wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed around the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem is how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & come down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15 times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & it just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well. I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bit more depth. Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? Rick On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm away from the LED. The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should run cooler. Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps at this stage. Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat out through the housing quicker. Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate all bubbles in the oil filling process. Will try & attach photos. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lights.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 29951 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 19 03:32:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 19:32:04 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments In-Reply-To: <007601d2b8db$220ece70$662c6b50$@nl> References: <2E65D9F4-AB46-4574-B20D-837773B833BE@yahoo.com> <39368E04-FC27-48DE-8CA8-0BA2B8C83D3F@yahoo.com> <4239A336-A3A6-4DA1-9770-7B28D32AD100@yahoo.com> <28D6FDFA-FF62-4C41-80F6-561382F7D241@yahoo.com> <040c01d2b7b9$03f18b80$0bd4a280$@nl> <37BF3E07-E0C1-4E0C-A9AC-CB42E47D4A02@yahoo.com> <007601d2b8db$220ece70$662c6b50$@nl> Message-ID: Thanks Emile, that will give me a bench mark pressure for my testing. Hope all is going well. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 19/04/2017, at 7:04 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > Guess it is tempered. I tested my lamp with a 90x10 mm disk to 80 Bar without breaking. > 60x10 could be tested to 100-120 Bar! > The reflectors are also from Dev Pein.de > > Emile > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: maandag 17 april 2017 23:26 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments > > Emile, > that is a good site especially when you copy & paste into Google translator. > Do you know the strength rating of the borosilicate? Is it tempered ? > I need 60mm diameter & I think the thickness I require is 10mm for tempered > borosilicate. They have a stock item 60 x 10. > Although my required diameter is 60mm the unsupported diameter is 37mm. > Sub build is for 500 ft so want the glass to withstand 500psi. > A good thing is they say the edges are rounded & I need to push the lens through > an o-ring that seals on the side. > I guess I can buy them & smash them like Alec does if I am not sure of their > strength. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 18/04/2017, at 8:27 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, > > Get my lamp glass here: > http://shop.dev-pein.de/Selbstbau/Glaeser/ > They are not as brittle as you mention. > > Br, Emile > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: maandag 17 april 2017 20:20 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments > > Hi Alan, > > The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick, > I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & > have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being > made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these > & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > High Rick, > to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it > winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if > you went this way. > Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts > seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the back > that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. > The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring groove > to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle section > has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts > are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps > the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can > be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can > be mounted in a recess. > As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have > room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I > can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up & > the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting > section over the silicon. It should work! > Pictures attached. > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > Thanks for the picture. > The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something? > If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Rick, > The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos. > Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on > the light coming out. > The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment > bolts for the LED. > Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure > rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excluding > wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed around > the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was > thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem is > how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & come > down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need > to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15 > times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & it > just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. > I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. > The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well. > I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bit > more depth. > Alan > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? > > Rick > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. > The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about > what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm > away from the LED. > The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature > out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should > run cooler. > Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. > At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps > at this stage. > Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. > At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. > At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. > So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, > maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat > out through the housing quicker. > Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the > oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially > if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a > temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably > weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. > At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens > or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate > all bubbles in the oil filling process. > Will try & attach photos. > Alan > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 19 06:06:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 06:06:36 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light housing gaskets In-Reply-To: <1253084296.3436455.1492568901163@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1253084296.3436455.1492568901163.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1253084296.3436455.1492568901163@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: For under the lens I have no gasket. I think the main reason I was breaking lenses on one light but not the other was that in the problem one the cavity for the lens was ever too small and the lens was squeezed by it. The problem seemed to be resolved by re-machining the cavity to enlarge it by just a few thousandths. If that had not solved it, my next step was going to be adding a gasket under the lens. It would need to be very thin, and I was planning to cut it from disposable gloves. But apparently no need. As the top gasket I use the O ring itself. I've chamfered the top edge of the lens cavity and use a triangular sealing pattern for the o ring. Best, Alec On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 10:28 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff & Alec, > just ordering 20 tempered borosilicate lenses at $2-50 each including > postage! > They will go in the pressure chamber, so I'll know whether I got good > value. > Just wondering what you guys used as gaskets under the lens. > I did have an o-ring under the acrylic lens but are putting a gasket under > the glass. > I have an o-ring in the bore of the lens housing but would like my gasket > to be a > secondary seal as well as seat. > Alec, with your experience of lenses breaking, I am looking at a suitable > thickness > of neoprene or similar for the top gasket that I can compress to half it's > thickness > when bolting the housing together. This will give me a bit of machining > tolerance. > see attachment > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 19 06:53:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 22:53:22 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light housing gaskets In-Reply-To: References: <1253084296.3436455.1492568901163.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1253084296.3436455.1492568901163@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <81872EF8-91BE-4074-A96B-361F9E5D714F@yahoo.com> Alec, good idea using the o-ring on top of the glass. I have been searching on sight glass / gauge glass sites to find the best gasket for under the lens. PTFE (teflon) seems to be well thought of in high temperature applications. Not sure of the recommended thickness but one manufacturer selling site glass spares had 1/16 & 3/32" gaskets. It is really a miniature view port in construction so I guess the gasket on our view ports would be relatively thin if you scaled them down to a light housing size. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 19/04/2017, at 10:06 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > For under the lens I have no gasket. I think the main reason I was breaking lenses on one light but not the other was that in the problem one the cavity for the lens was ever too small and the lens was squeezed by it. The problem seemed to be resolved by re-machining the cavity to enlarge it by just a few thousandths. If that had not solved it, my next step was going to be adding a gasket under the lens. It would need to be very thin, and I was planning to cut it from disposable gloves. But apparently no need. As the top gasket I use the O ring itself. I've chamfered the top edge of the lens cavity and use a triangular sealing pattern for the o ring. > > Best, > > Alec > > >> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 10:28 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Cliff & Alec, >> just ordering 20 tempered borosilicate lenses at $2-50 each including postage! >> They will go in the pressure chamber, so I'll know whether I got good value. >> Just wondering what you guys used as gaskets under the lens. >> I did have an o-ring under the acrylic lens but are putting a gasket under the glass. >> I have an o-ring in the bore of the lens housing but would like my gasket to be a >> secondary seal as well as seat. >> Alec, with your experience of lenses breaking, I am looking at a suitable thickness >> of neoprene or similar for the top gasket that I can compress to half it's thickness >> when bolting the housing together. This will give me a bit of machining tolerance. >> see attachment >> Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 19 10:25:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:25:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light project spec sheet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cliff, can you send me a copy of the spec sheet for the light project? -River Dolfi rdolfi7 at gmail.com On Apr 19, 2017 3:33 AM, "via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Light Experiments (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 19:32:04 +1200 From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks Emile, that will give me a bench mark pressure for my testing. Hope all is going well. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 19/04/2017, at 7:04 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > > Guess it is tempered. I tested my lamp with a 90x10 mm disk to 80 Bar without breaking. > 60x10 could be tested to 100-120 Bar! > The reflectors are also from Dev Pein.de > > Emile > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: maandag 17 april 2017 23:26 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments > > Emile, > that is a good site especially when you copy & paste into Google translator. > Do you know the strength rating of the borosilicate? Is it tempered ? > I need 60mm diameter & I think the thickness I require is 10mm for tempered > borosilicate. They have a stock item 60 x 10. > Although my required diameter is 60mm the unsupported diameter is 37mm. > Sub build is for 500 ft so want the glass to withstand 500psi. > A good thing is they say the edges are rounded & I need to push the lens through > an o-ring that seals on the side. > I guess I can buy them & smash them like Alec does if I am not sure of their > strength. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 18/04/2017, at 8:27 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > > Get my lamp glass here: > http://shop.dev-pein.de/Selbstbau/Glaeser/ > They are not as brittle as you mention. > > Br, Emile > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: maandag 17 april 2017 20:20 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments > > Hi Alan, > > The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & > have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being > made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these > & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > High Rick, > to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it > winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times if > you went this way. > Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & bolts > seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the back > that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. > The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring groove > to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle section > has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts > are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that clamps > the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) can > be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light can > be mounted in a recess. > As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't have > room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I > can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch up & > the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting > section over the silicon. It should work! > Pictures attached. > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > Thanks for the picture. > The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on against an 0 ring or something? > If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them self's? > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those photos. > Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on > the light coming out. > The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the attachment > bolts for the LED. > Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure > rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. (excluding > wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed around > the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & was > thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only problem is > how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED & come > down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need > to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist them 15 > times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff & it > just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted wires. > I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. > The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out well. > I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the fins a bit > more depth. > Alan > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > > Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the back and such? > > Rick > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. > The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about > what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm > away from the LED. > The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature > out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should > run cooler. > Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 minutes. > At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps > at this stage. > Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. > At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. > At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. > So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, > maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the heat > out through the housing quicker. > Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that without the > oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed especially > if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there would be a > temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be considerably > weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in operation. > At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a borosilicate lens > or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be hard to eliminate > all bubbles in the oil filling process. > Will try & attach photos. > Alan > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 46, Issue 104 ****************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 19 13:36:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 12:36:53 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light project spec sheet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: attached On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:25 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, can you send me a copy of the spec sheet for the light project? > > -River Dolfi > rdolfi7 at gmail.com > > On Apr 19, 2017 3:33 AM, "via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Light Experiments (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 19:32:04 +1200 > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Thanks Emile, > that will give me a bench mark pressure for my testing. > Hope all is going well. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 19/04/2017, at 7:04 PM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Alan, > > > > Guess it is tempered. I tested my lamp with a 90x10 mm disk to 80 Bar > without breaking. > > 60x10 could be tested to 100-120 Bar! > > The reflectors are also from Dev Pein.de > > > > Emile > > > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > Verzonden: maandag 17 april 2017 23:26 > > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments > > > > Emile, > > that is a good site especially when you copy & paste into Google > translator. > > Do you know the strength rating of the borosilicate? Is it tempered ? > > I need 60mm diameter & I think the thickness I require is 10mm for > tempered > > borosilicate. They have a stock item 60 x 10. > > Although my required diameter is 60mm the unsupported diameter is 37mm. > > Sub build is for 500 ft so want the glass to withstand 500psi. > > A good thing is they say the edges are rounded & I need to push the lens > through > > an o-ring that seals on the side. > > I guess I can buy them & smash them like Alec does if I am not sure of > their > > strength. > > Alan > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 18/04/2017, at 8:27 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Alec, > > > > Get my lamp glass here: > > http://shop.dev-pein.de/Selbstbau/Glaeser/ > > They are not as brittle as you mention. > > > > Br, Emile > > > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > Verzonden: maandag 17 april 2017 20:20 > > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Light Experiments > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > The borosilicate lenses in these parts are $17 each if that is a useful > reference. I would recommend several spares, because while resistant to > temperature they are VERY easy to break during installation or if you just > look at them unkindly. On one light I'm on the first one, but the other > light took three of them before I learned just how gentle I had to be. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > > I should mention that I have now gone with a 36V system & > > have some pwm dimming controlled buck boost LED drivers being > > made for me. These could drive Cliff & Alecs light. So waiting for these > > & a reply on the borosilicate lens enquiry before I go any further. > > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 17/04/2017, at 11:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > High Rick, > > to insert the male subconn fitting it has to be turned 15 times as it > > winds down fully in to the thread; so the wire would be twisted 15 times > if > > you went this way. > > Yes the bolts go right the way through. This avoids tapping threads & > bolts > > seizing. It also has the advantage that I can have longer bolts out the > back > > that an attachment bracket can be bolted to. > > The back section in the photo, has the led attached to it & an o-ring > groove > > to seal against the bore of the middle section. The base of the middle > section > > has an o-ring groove & the back section compresses this when the bolts > > are tightened up. So two o-rings on this section. The top ring that > clamps > > the lens down on to an o-ring (also o-ring around the side of the lens) > can > > be made a larger diameter with a second set of bolt holes so the light > can > > be mounted in a recess. > > As the back section is the main heat sink & mount for the LED I don't > have > > room for a bunch of twisted wires. The nozzle out back is designed so I > > can pour resin in to it, let it set, then coat the wiring about an inch > up & > > the nozzle with silicone. Then I intend to mold a rubberised supporting > > section over the silicon. It should work! > > Pictures attached. > > Cheers Alan > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 17/04/2017, at 10:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > Thanks for the picture. > > The size housing you are using is kinda what I wanted to go with as > well. Not sure what you mean about screwing something in 15 times. From the > top view picture you sent, looks like the front head/lens is held on > against a sealing surface with 6 Allan head bolts that go all the way threw > the back plate so I assume that the back plate is threaded and screws on > against an 0 ring or something? > > If that's the case, can't you drill and tap the back and put a sub-Conn > or strain relief fitting in and allow just enough length of wires to > protrude inside just enough to connect the LED wires to it before attaching > the lens? Do you have any pictures of everything inside the housing by them > self's? > > > > Rick > > > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, > > The light in the photos is mk 1 or 2. It didn't have oil in in those > photos. > > Funny but the oil bubble & the temperature sensor had no effect on > > the light coming out. > > The latest version has a conical lens machined in it & hides the > attachment > > bolts for the LED. > > Still a work in progress as I have just made enquiries regarding pressure > > rated borosilicate glass lenses. This light is 85mm D x 54mm long. > (excluding > > wiring nozzle) In the attached photo I have just temporarily siliconed > around > > the wires for the test. I do have 8 subconn male & female connectors & > was > > thinking of tapping a hole for the male connector to fit. The only > problem is > > how do I connect the wires? My two LED wires are either side of the LED > & come > > down two separate angled holes & meet in a central 8mm hole. I would need > > to fit the LED then attach the LED wires to the subconn wires & twist > them 15 > > times to thread in the subconn fitting. The subconn wires are very stiff > & it > > just wasn't going to work without a large amount of room for twisted > wires. > > I have some ideas for potting the wires that I will try & test. > > The housing diameter was dictated by stock material sizes but works out > well. > > I have machined the cooling fin slots in to the bolt holes to give the > fins a bit > > more depth. > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 17/04/2017, at 5:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Alan, > > > > Do these pictures have the silicone oil in them? Do you have any side > and back shots of the housing and other data regarding the housing like > wall thickness and what fitting did you use to get the power out of the > back and such? > > > > Rick > > > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I put a temperature probe inside the housing of my 80W LED light. > > The probe was up against the acrylic lens, as I was concerned about > > what temperature the lens was seeing on the inside. The lens is 10mm > > away from the LED. > > The LED manufacturer told me that on normal LEDs the temperature > > out the front of the LED can be 338F (170C) but my flip chips should > > run cooler. > > Briefly; when run at 30W in water they stabilised at 257F after 5 > minutes. > > At 45W they stabilised at 280F after 5 minutes. I stopped upping the amps > > at this stage. > > Next experiment, I filled the housing with silicone oil. > > At 45W it hit 116F in 4 minutes & temperature stabilised. > > At 76W it hit 139F in 6 minutes & stabilised. > > So oil has massive advantages in lessening temperature on the lens, > > maybe because it is a buffer from the radiant heat & also transfers the > heat > > out through the housing quicker. > > Greg your thoughts would be appreciated on this; I am thinking that > without the > > oil the acrylic lens would see temperatures at which it is formed > especially > > if I went up to 80W. Although the outside of the lens was cold there > would be a > > temperature transition across the thickness of the lens & it would be > considerably > > weakened. I am building to 500ft, so it would potentially see 250 psi in > operation. > > At this stage I haven't made up my mind whether to go with a > borosilicate lens > > or oil fill with an acrylic lens. I had a large bubble & it would be > hard to eliminate > > all bubbles in the oil filling process. > > Will try & attach photos. > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20170419/3c670883/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 46, Issue 104 > ****************************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PSUBS LED Lights Spec ver 5.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 33318 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 19 16:25:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 20:25:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? In-Reply-To: References: <1775867350.910182.1492274590747@mail.yahoo.com> <1377641382.1118629.1492312219244@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <590225722.4274947.1492633552865@mail.yahoo.com> OOPS! I made a mistake- The turbo related item that might work as a MBT vent is not the blow off valve but the?"Waste-gate". Waste-gates are pressure relief valves actuated by air pressure. There are many different types of waste-gates and lots of examples on ebay. Greg C From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? That one even looks good! However, I think I've come up with a way to just re-route the tubing that should work. So long as it works, a solution with no remotely actuated valves at all wins KISS-wise, so I'll give that a try.? Thanks, Alec On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:10 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: 4 psi spring return pneumatic valve for turbo applications might be an option- 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black | eBay | | | | $ 15.75 | | | | | | | 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black |... 1" 25mm OD Inlet BOV Blow off Valve Turbo Bypass Brass Piston Black | eBay Motors, Parts & Accessories,... | | | | From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Alec,You might try a Turbo blow off valve. From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 8:13 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves? Hi all, I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do just two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking.? Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air? Thanks, Alec ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 20 00:27:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:27:55 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUB TENDER Message-ID: <676F2E61-663B-4CAE-988E-893755F1EFD4@yahoo.com> Saw the photo below on Facebook of Karl Stanley's sub stuck in the back of what looks like a boat / lars. This looks like an idea we have discussed in the past for transporting subs. Anyone know any details on this? Alan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 122558 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 20 01:44:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 22:44:16 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUB TENDER Message-ID: <20170419224416.841EAF34@m0087797.ppops.net> Looks like he has a ballast system incorporated in the boat. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUB TENDER Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:27:55 +1200 Saw the photo below on Facebook of Karl Stanley's sub stuck in the back of what looks like a boat / lars. This looks like an idea we have discussed in the past for transporting subs. Anyone know any details on this? Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 20 02:56:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:56:59 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUB TENDER In-Reply-To: <20170419224416.841EAF34@m0087797.ppops.net> References: <20170419224416.841EAF34@m0087797.ppops.net> Message-ID: <7920AF1F-F6BB-4CB1-9506-0BD5F1869C73@yahoo.com> Brian, yes, valves everywhere. I don't see anything that indicates you can drive it! Unless under the hatch at the front is the pilots compartment, & they have a jet unit in the middle of the boat. It looks like it is designed to be towed. I would think it would need to be totally submerged to get underneath Idabel, so it would make it difficult to incorporate a motor. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 20/04/2017, at 5:44 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Looks like he has a ballast system incorporated in the boat. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUB TENDER > Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:27:55 +1200 > > Saw the photo below on Facebook of Karl Stanley's sub stuck in the > back of what looks like a boat / lars. > This looks like an idea we have discussed in the past for transporting > subs. Anyone know any details on this? > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 20 13:25:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 07:25:02 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 tank Message-ID: I asked this question a while ago but didn't get a response so thought I'd try again. Does anyone know if a new unused aluminum scuba tank would need to be 02 cleaned? Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 20 13:44:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:44:00 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 tank In-Reply-To: 1FqJdIqmiISm61FqKdvFLD References: 1FqJdIqmiISm61FqKdvFLD Message-ID: <8c0a5491-57b4-4215-b5fc-a65d4b73508e@email.android.com> Cylinder and valve will need to be oxygen cleaned and built or rebuit using viton o-rings and oxygen compatible lubricants; however, it is possible that it may come that way from the factory. Probably dependent on the manufacturer and retailer, the latter usually supplying newly purchased cylinders with an initial visual inspection sticker for recreational divers. With the prevalence of nitrox mixtures in recreational diving, it is becoming more commonplace to supply conformant cylinders, but check with your supplier. Oxygen cleaning is something you can do yourself, simply by using hydrocarbon free detergents, rebuild kits or o-rings which are O2 compatible (i.e. Viton), and O2 compatible lubricants such as Christolube. Sean On April 20, 2017 11:25:02 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I asked this question a while ago but didn't get a response so thought >I'd >try again. >Does anyone know if a new unused aluminum scuba tank would need to be >02 >cleaned? > >Rick > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 20 13:47:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 07:47:33 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 tank In-Reply-To: <8c0a5491-57b4-4215-b5fc-a65d4b73508e@email.android.com> References: <8c0a5491-57b4-4215-b5fc-a65d4b73508e@email.android.com> Message-ID: Thanks Sean Rick On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Cylinder and valve will need to be oxygen cleaned and built or rebuit > using viton o-rings and oxygen compatible lubricants; however, it is > possible that it may come that way from the factory. Probably dependent on > the manufacturer and retailer, the latter usually supplying newly purchased > cylinders with an initial visual inspection sticker for recreational > divers. With the prevalence of nitrox mixtures in recreational diving, it > is becoming more commonplace to supply conformant cylinders, but check with > your supplier. Oxygen cleaning is something you can do yourself, simply by > using hydrocarbon free detergents, rebuild kits or o-rings which are O2 > compatible (i.e. Viton), and O2 compatible lubricants such as Christolube. > > Sean > > > On April 20, 2017 11:25:02 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I asked this question a while ago but didn't get a response so thought >> I'd try again. >> Does anyone know if a new unused aluminum scuba tank would need to be 02 >> cleaned? >> >> Rick >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 20 15:18:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:18:32 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 tank In-Reply-To: References: <8c0a5491-57b4-4215-b5fc-a65d4b73508e@email.android.com> Message-ID: <0D5DEAF5-420A-4C79-88CB-DE9F57F35B15@yahoo.com> Rick, I would approach the O2 supplier that you consider you will be getting most of your O2 from, & ask them the question. It would be no use cleaning yourself if they want some sort of certificate. I was advised by the local Padi dive centre to go with steel tanks, & I got them to clean them & the first stage regulator. They were specific about what 1st stage regulators they could O2 clean. They put a nice big official looking oxygen sticker on the bottle & made me do an emergeny O2 providers course. The local gas supplier on the other hand was a bit clueless as to requirements & would only fill with a medical fitting. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 21/04/2017, at 5:47 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Sean > > Rick > >> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Cylinder and valve will need to be oxygen cleaned and built or rebuit using viton o-rings and oxygen compatible lubricants; however, it is possible that it may come that way from the factory. Probably dependent on the manufacturer and retailer, the latter usually supplying newly purchased cylinders with an initial visual inspection sticker for recreational divers. With the prevalence of nitrox mixtures in recreational diving, it is becoming more commonplace to supply conformant cylinders, but check with your supplier. Oxygen cleaning is something you can do yourself, simply by using hydrocarbon free detergents, rebuild kits or o-rings which are O2 compatible (i.e. Viton), and O2 compatible lubricants such as Christolube. >> >> Sean >> >> >>> On April 20, 2017 11:25:02 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> I asked this question a while ago but didn't get a response so thought I'd try again. >>> Does anyone know if a new unused aluminum scuba tank would need to be 02 cleaned? >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 20 17:08:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 15:08:36 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 tank In-Reply-To: 1HbldJrrOISm61HbmdwCIY References: <8c0a5491-57b4-4215-b5fc-a65d4b73508e@email.android.com> 1HbldJrrOISm61HbmdwCIY Message-ID: <6df8ed80-586c-45c3-9151-0f39967595a7@email.android.com> I should note that I do my own fills, usually from industrial O2 cylinders (CGA-540 fitting). I have several, so a straight transfill gets me pretty close to the large cylinder supply pressure. If I need to go higher, I seek the services of a dive shop with a booster pump, but then you pay dive shop prices for oxygen. Sean On April 20, 2017 1:18:32 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Rick, >I would approach the O2 supplier that you consider you will be getting >most of your O2 from, & ask them the question. >It would be no use cleaning yourself if they want some sort of >certificate. >I was advised by the local Padi dive centre to go with steel tanks, & I >got them >to clean them & the first stage regulator. They were specific about >what >1st stage regulators they could O2 clean. They put a nice big official >looking >oxygen sticker on the bottle & made me do an emergeny O2 providers >course. >The local gas supplier on the other hand was a bit clueless as to >requirements >& would only fill with a medical fitting. >Alan > > >Sent from my iPad > >> On 21/04/2017, at 5:47 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Thanks Sean >> >> Rick >> >>> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Cylinder and valve will need to be oxygen cleaned and built or >rebuit using viton o-rings and oxygen compatible lubricants; however, >it is possible that it may come that way from the factory. Probably >dependent on the manufacturer and retailer, the latter usually >supplying newly purchased cylinders with an initial visual inspection >sticker for recreational divers. With the prevalence of nitrox mixtures >in recreational diving, it is becoming more commonplace to supply >conformant cylinders, but check with your supplier. Oxygen cleaning is >something you can do yourself, simply by using hydrocarbon free >detergents, rebuild kits or o-rings which are O2 compatible (i.e. >Viton), and O2 compatible lubricants such as Christolube. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>>> On April 20, 2017 11:25:02 AM MDT, Rick Patton via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> I asked this question a while ago but didn't get a response so >thought I'd try again. >>>> Does anyone know if a new unused aluminum scuba tank would need to >be 02 cleaned? >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 20 20:26:37 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 00:26:37 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay Message-ID: It arrived and it is NICE! As you would have expected from the original $1400.00 price, it's about as solid a piece of kit as anyone could want. Ends are turned stainless at least 3/8th inches thick. Perforated cylinders, internal and external, are of the same quality. No cheesy mesh screen here - heavy duty two layers of stainless. This thing was meant to get routinely slammed around in a commercial decompression chamber. Mount a fan and ready to go. Very happy with my score. Now to figure out the best way and where to mount it. Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 20 22:07:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:07:58 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 tank In-Reply-To: <6df8ed80-586c-45c3-9151-0f39967595a7@email.android.com> References: <8c0a5491-57b4-4215-b5fc-a65d4b73508e@email.android.com> <6df8ed80-586c-45c3-9151-0f39967595a7@email.android.com> Message-ID: Sean, My welding supplier here on the big island won't fill a scuba tank but a dive shop here will as long as it's been 02 cleaned so checking with the manufacturer on the mainland who makes the tanks that say they are "Nitrox" ready to see if that would apply to 02 as well. If not, I'll have them cleaned before shipping them here. The dive shop charges a buck a cu ft to fill and didn't have a problem with them being aluminum. I have several Large 02 bottles at my welding shop and was also planning on doing the equalizing thing as well. or getting an 02 transfer pump to stuff the sub bottles if I have to so that both bottles are completely full before leaving the surface every time. Rick On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 11:08 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I should note that I do my own fills, usually from industrial O2 cylinders > (CGA-540 fitting). I have several, so a straight transfill gets me pretty > close to the large cylinder supply pressure. If I need to go higher, I seek > the services of a dive shop with a booster pump, but then you pay dive shop > prices for oxygen. > > Sean > > > On April 20, 2017 1:18:32 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Rick, >> I would approach the O2 supplier that you consider you will be getting >> most of your O2 from, & ask them the question. >> It would be no use cleaning yourself if they want some sort of >> certificate. >> I was advised by the local Padi dive centre to go with steel tanks, & I >> got them >> to clean them & the first stage regulator. They were specific about what >> 1st stage regulators they could O2 clean. They put a nice big official >> looking >> oxygen sticker on the bottle & made me do an emergeny O2 providers course. >> The local gas supplier on the other hand was a bit clueless as to >> requirements >> & would only fill with a medical fitting. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 21/04/2017, at 5:47 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks Sean >> >> Rick >> >> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Cylinder and valve will need to be oxygen cleaned and built or rebuit >>> using viton o-rings and oxygen compatible lubricants; however, it is >>> possible that it may come that way from the factory. Probably depende! nt >>> on the manufacturer and retailer, the latter usually supplying newly >>> purchased cylinders with an initial visual inspection sticker for >>> recreational divers. With the prevalence of nitrox mixtures in recreational >>> diving, it is becoming more commonplace to supply conformant cylinders, but >>> check with your supplier. Oxygen cleaning is something you can do yourself, >>> simply by using hydrocarbon free detergents, rebuild kits or o-rings which >>> are O2 compatible (i.e. Viton), and O2 compatible lubricants such as >>> Christolube. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On April 20, 2017 11:25:02 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I asked this question a while ago but didn't get a response so thought >>>> I'd try again. >>>> Does anyone know if a new unused aluminum scuba tank would need to be >>>> 02 cleaned? >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 20 22:55:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 19:55:28 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay Message-ID: <20170420195528.841BA8C4@m0087792.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 21 00:00:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 04:00:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller In-Reply-To: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9962817.10120.1492129929379@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <205156162.5594560.1492747240692@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Ian,I managed to order one of the bow thruster props?you suggested for $35-at "Ultimate Passage." It is good to know that if the RH works I can buy the LH.Thanks.Alan From: irox via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller Hi Alan, it might be a bit big for you, but the smallest cheap counter rotating prop set I've found is from "Quick", they do a 4 blade 185mm in RH and LH for $40-$80 (depending on where you order them).? Part numbers: BTQ185 LH (QI55507) BTQ185 RH (QI55508) http://www.quickusastore.com/bow-thrusters/spare-parts/bow-thrusters-propellers.html I got a pair and installed the on cheap ($45) trolling motors.? They made a big difference over the stock props, but of would probably burn out the cheap trolling motors quickly.? I didn't get around to look into reducing the diameter to better match the motors (plus I want to use better motors anyway). An SLA 3D Printer may be able to print something which could be used (after UV curing). Cheers, ? Ian. -----Original Message----- >From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Apr 13, 2017 4:52 PM >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Plastic Propeller > >Greg, (or anyone else as knowledgeable) >I am going to test a Vetus 146mm propeller soon. On paper it >seems a good match to my motor. I have not seen a left hand prop (which I >need) & the right hands go between $56- & $100-. Also I may need a slightly >smaller diameter. They are made of delrin. >Is there an easy / inexpensive way of replicating >something similar? I was thinking they could be printed & the print used >as a lost wax type aluminium casting. >I could make a silicon mold from a print & cast a fiber reinforced propeller, >but aren't sure about the strength & quality I could get. >Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? >Thanks, Alan > > >Sent from my iPad > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 21 19:41:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Mark via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 19:41:30 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4237FCA1-C45A-4F8F-8DA3-B2A445830496@nc.rr.com> Hi Brian, I also purchased the same scrubber. Please let me know which fan you select and how you plan to attach. I have a 3D printer so maybe I can help... Regards, Mark Widman 910-638-5229 Sent from iPhone. > On Apr 20, 2017, at 8:26 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > It arrived and it is NICE! As you would have expected from the original $1400.00 price, it's about as solid a piece of kit as anyone could want. Ends are turned stainless at least 3/8th inches thick. Perforated cylinders, internal and external, are of the same quality. No cheesy mesh screen here - heavy duty two layers of stainless. This thing was meant to get routinely slammed around in a commercial decompression chamber. Mount a fan and ready to go. > > Very happy with my score. > > Now to figure out the best way and where to mount it. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 21 19:42:37 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 11:42:37 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 3D Printing Carbon Fibre Message-ID: <44657A72-EBB5-4A7A-9BF8-FA3EA60EAD05@yahoo.com> Cliff, came across a couple of videos on printing carbon fibre. Price is $40- per 500g. It was the second strongest printing material the supplier had. Strongest cost hundreds of $ per kilo. Seems to be nearly twice as strong as printed ABS in tensile strength. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5bt71rgEFKg & https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VDuFVKLZ_Qc Might be just the thing for printing propellers. My Vetus 6 bladed propeller weighs just over 100 grams so it would be economical to print. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 01:03:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 01:03:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM LED driver for Cliff's enclosure Message-ID: Hey everyone, I've managed to convince a professor at the University to let me tackle developing a high power LED driver for psubs purposes for a grade. I'm just curious which features everyone would like in an LED driver. I am designing a driver for the Bridgelux Vero 29 LED array and will hopefully package it into a form factor so that all of the electronics fit into the enclosures Cliff designed and presented at the last convention. So far I plan on using a small microcontroller (probably an ATTiny for those who are interested) to generate a PWM signal that will switch a MOSFET, to control the amount of power delivered from an off the shelf constant current LED driver chip. The chip I found, the LT3478, seems to be ideal for PSUBS purposes, as it contains it's own converter that will accepts anything between 5 and 36 volts. I'm also probably going to incorporate a temperature sensor that will shut the light down if it gets too hot (running the light for too long out of the water) and killing the electronics/melting the lens. The microcontroller will accept a 0-5 volt analog signal from either a potentiometer or a PLC in order to convert that to a PWM signall to dim the lights. Are there any major features that I'm missing? It seems that PWM dimming and application specific temperature control are the big ones. Curious to get input from those that are running LED rigs right now. -- -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526 rdolfi7 at gmail.com rwd5301 at psu.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 01:50:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 17:50:47 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM LED driver for Cliff's enclosure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5845706D-7A1A-4FBD-8F34-736FD4487933@yahoo.com> Hi River, just a quick word on this. I am getting 12 dc buck / boost constant current LED drivers with PWM dimming control off a rotary switch potentiometer, made up for me in China. Max input voltage is I think 50V. & output is 38V with variable Amps up to 3 Amps. Most Psubbers seem to have a 36V system & when fully charged that is well over 36V. So I would revise the maximum input voltage. A lot of electric bikes also have 36V systems with lithium iron batteries. That may be an application. I went to a different LED that is smaller round but still a Verolux. Max of 80W. Smaller is advantageous in lots of ways. You can email me on alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com if you want to discuss anything privately. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 22/04/2017, at 5:03 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hey everyone, > I've managed to convince a professor at the University to let me tackle developing a high power LED driver for psubs purposes for a grade. I'm just curious which features everyone would like in an LED driver. I am designing a driver for the Bridgelux Vero 29 LED array and will hopefully package it into a form factor so that all of the electronics fit into the enclosures Cliff designed and presented at the last convention. > > So far I plan on using a small microcontroller (probably an ATTiny for those who are interested) to generate a PWM signal that will switch a MOSFET, to control the amount of power delivered from an off the shelf constant current LED driver chip. The chip I found, the LT3478, seems to be ideal for PSUBS purposes, as it contains it's own converter that will accepts anything between 5 and 36 volts. > > I'm also probably going to incorporate a temperature sensor that will shut the light down if it gets too hot (running the light for too long out of the water) and killing the electronics/melting the lens. The microcontroller will accept a 0-5 volt analog signal from either a potentiometer or a PLC in order to convert that to a PWM signall to dim the lights. > > Are there any major features that I'm missing? It seems that PWM dimming and application specific temperature control are the big ones. Curious to get input from those that are running LED rigs right now. > > -- > -River J. Dolfi > > 412-997-2526 > rdolfi7 at gmail.com > rwd5301 at psu.edu > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 02:31:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 18:31:02 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM LED driver for Cliff's enclosure In-Reply-To: <5845706D-7A1A-4FBD-8F34-736FD4487933@yahoo.com> References: <5845706D-7A1A-4FBD-8F34-736FD4487933@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BC78C31-21EC-4A33-81F5-6A5837783656@yahoo.com> River, also I have 20 of these on order. http://uk.farnell.com/on-semiconductor/nsi50150adt4g/led-driver-pwm-50v-to-252-3/dp/2382343 I have a couple I have played round with. They are 350ma & you string them in parrallel to get your output Amps. They have a wide voltage tolerance. There is instruction on PWM dimming on the spec sheet. As our input & output voltages aren't too far apart, the efficiencies may not be too bad. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 22/04/2017, at 5:50 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi River, > just a quick word on this. > I am getting 12 dc buck / boost constant current LED drivers with PWM dimming > control off a rotary switch potentiometer, made up for me in China. > Max input voltage is I think 50V. & output is 38V with variable Amps up to 3 Amps. > Most Psubbers seem to have a 36V system & when fully charged that is well over 36V. > So I would revise the maximum input voltage. A lot of electric bikes also have 36V > systems with lithium iron batteries. That may be an application. > I went to a different LED that is smaller round but still a Verolux. Max of 80W. > Smaller is advantageous in lots of ways. > You can email me on alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com if you want to discuss anything > privately. > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 22/04/2017, at 5:03 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hey everyone, >> I've managed to convince a professor at the University to let me tackle developing a high power LED driver for psubs purposes for a grade. I'm just curious which features everyone would like in an LED driver. I am designing a driver for the Bridgelux Vero 29 LED array and will hopefully package it into a form factor so that all of the electronics fit into the enclosures Cliff designed and presented at the last convention. >> >> So far I plan on using a small microcontroller (probably an ATTiny for those who are interested) to generate a PWM signal that will switch a MOSFET, to control the amount of power delivered from an off the shelf constant current LED driver chip. The chip I found, the LT3478, seems to be ideal for PSUBS purposes, as it contains it's own converter that will accepts anything between 5 and 36 volts. >> >> I'm also probably going to incorporate a temperature sensor that will shut the light down if it gets too hot (running the light for too long out of the water) and killing the electronics/melting the lens. The microcontroller will accept a 0-5 volt analog signal from either a potentiometer or a PLC in order to convert that to a PWM signall to dim the lights. >> >> Are there any major features that I'm missing? It seems that PWM dimming and application specific temperature control are the big ones. Curious to get input from those that are running LED rigs right now. >> >> -- >> -River J. Dolfi >> >> 412-997-2526 >> rdolfi7 at gmail.com >> rwd5301 at psu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 08:29:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 07:29:28 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM LED driver for Cliff's enclosure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: River, thanks for picking up the ball on the LED driver PCB for the Psub 10k light. I support everthing you have said but do agree with Alan on the supply voltage range. A lot of the PSub community use a 36VDC main bus to drive the Minn Kota 101's for thursters. The expected voltage range for three 12V batteries in series is on the order of 30-40 volts so 36V max on the LT3478 is not going to work. See specification of this supply voltage in the 10K LED project speciation page I sent you. Also, you will need to change the pin out in the Psub spec. as well as the part number for the Subconn connector to be able to have diming via a 0-5 VDC analog control signal. For simplicity and KISS, I think we should abandon the optional side mount on the enclosure drawings I developed and just focus on the rear entry for the bulkhead connector. Due to the delay in getting a viable driver for the 10K LED project, a lot of folks have gone their own way on external lights. We are going to have to get someone that still needs external lights to machine the prototype enclosure. I am willing to test the prototype light in my test chamber. Cliff On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:03 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hey everyone, > I've managed to convince a professor at the University to let me tackle > developing a high power LED driver for psubs purposes for a grade. I'm just > curious which features everyone would like in an LED driver. I am designing > a driver for the Bridgelux Vero 29 LED array and will hopefully package it > into a form factor so that all of the electronics fit into the enclosures > Cliff designed and presented at the last convention. > > So far I plan on using a small microcontroller (probably an ATTiny for > those who are interested) to generate a PWM signal that will switch a > MOSFET, to control the amount of power delivered from an off the shelf > constant current LED driver chip. The chip I found, the LT3478, seems to be > ideal for PSUBS purposes, as it contains it's own converter that will > accepts anything between 5 and 36 volts. > > I'm also probably going to incorporate a temperature sensor that will shut > the light down if it gets too hot (running the light for too long out of > the water) and killing the electronics/melting the lens. The > microcontroller will accept a 0-5 volt analog signal from either a > potentiometer or a PLC in order to convert that to a PWM signall to dim the > lights. > > Are there any major features that I'm missing? It seems that PWM dimming > and application specific temperature control are the big ones. Curious to > get input from those that are running LED rigs right now. > > -- > -River J. Dolfi > > 412-997-2526 <(412)%20997-2526> > rdolfi7 at gmail.com > rwd5301 at psu.edu > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 09:31:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 09:31:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM LED driver for Cliff's enclosure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm still planning on making a second set of lights and so will machine the enclosure. My first set is 5K, but the next one is 10K. Now having said that I already have the driver for it, but am happy to test the proposed one. Ah, and my existing driver lacks dimming so this would also be a plus. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > River, thanks for picking up the ball on the LED driver PCB for the Psub > 10k light. I support everthing you have said but do agree with Alan on the > supply voltage range. A lot of the PSub community use a 36VDC main bus to > drive the Minn Kota 101's for thursters. The expected voltage range for > three 12V batteries in series is on the order of 30-40 volts so 36V max on > the LT3478 is not going to work. See specification of this supply voltage > in the 10K LED project speciation page I sent you. Also, you will need to > change the pin out in the Psub spec. as well as the part number for the > Subconn connector to be able to have diming via a 0-5 VDC analog control > signal. > > For simplicity and KISS, I think we should abandon the optional side mount > on the enclosure drawings I developed and just focus on the rear entry for > the bulkhead connector. Due to the delay in getting a viable driver for > the 10K LED project, a lot of folks have gone their own way on external > lights. We are going to have to get someone that still needs external > lights to machine the prototype enclosure. I am willing to test the > prototype light in my test chamber. > > > Cliff > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:03 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hey everyone, >> I've managed to convince a professor at the University to let me tackle >> developing a high power LED driver for psubs purposes for a grade. I'm just >> curious which features everyone would like in an LED driver. I am designing >> a driver for the Bridgelux Vero 29 LED array and will hopefully package it >> into a form factor so that all of the electronics fit into the enclosures >> Cliff designed and presented at the last convention. >> >> So far I plan on using a small microcontroller (probably an ATTiny for >> those who are interested) to generate a PWM signal that will switch a >> MOSFET, to control the amount of power delivered from an off the shelf >> constant current LED driver chip. The chip I found, the LT3478, seems to be >> ideal for PSUBS purposes, as it contains it's own converter that will >> accepts anything between 5 and 36 volts. >> >> I'm also probably going to incorporate a temperature sensor that will >> shut the light down if it gets too hot (running the light for too long out >> of the water) and killing the electronics/melting the lens. The >> microcontroller will accept a 0-5 volt analog signal from either a >> potentiometer or a PLC in order to convert that to a PWM signall to dim the >> lights. >> >> Are there any major features that I'm missing? It seems that PWM dimming >> and application specific temperature control are the big ones. Curious to >> get input from those that are running LED rigs right now. >> >> -- >> -River J. Dolfi >> >> 412-997-2526 <(412)%20997-2526> >> rdolfi7 at gmail.com >> rwd5301 at psu.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 10:50:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 14:50:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM LED driver for Cliff's enclosure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <393995330.1994601.1492872622954@mail.yahoo.com> I have not ever wanted to dim my light, perhaps I have not been in the right?environment. ?I am not sure that should be a concern, I mean to keep it simple.Hank On Saturday, April 22, 2017 7:32 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm still planning on making a second set of lights and so will machine the enclosure. My first set is 5K, but the next one is 10K. Now having said that I already have the driver for it, but am happy to test the proposed one. Ah, and my existing driver lacks dimming so this would also be a plus. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: River, thanks for picking up the ball on the LED driver PCB for the Psub 10k light.? I support everthing you have said but do agree with Alan on the supply voltage range.? A lot of the PSub community use a 36VDC main bus to drive the Minn Kota 101's for thursters.? The expected voltage range for three 12V batteries in series is on the order of 30-40 volts so 36V max on the LT3478 is not going to work.? See?specification of this supply voltage in the 10K LED project speciation page I sent you.? Also, you will need to change the pin out in the Psub spec. as well?as the part number for the Subconn connector?to be able to have diming via a 0-5 VDC analog control signal. For simplicity and KISS, I think we should abandon the optional side mount on the enclosure drawings I developed and just focus on the rear entry for the bulkhead connector.? Due to the delay in getting a viable driver for the 10K LED project, a lot of folks have gone their own way on external lights.? We are going to have to get someone that still needs external lights to machine the prototype enclosure.?? I am willing to test the prototype light in my test chamber. Cliff On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:03 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey everyone, I've managed to convince a professor at the University to let me tackle developing a high power LED driver for psubs purposes for a grade. I'm just curious which features everyone would like in an LED driver. I am designing a driver for the Bridgelux Vero 29 LED array and will hopefully package it into a form factor so that all of the electronics fit into the enclosures Cliff designed and presented at the last convention. So far I plan on using a small microcontroller (probably an ATTiny for those who are interested) to generate a PWM signal that will switch a MOSFET, to control the amount of power delivered from an off the shelf constant current LED driver chip. The chip I found, the LT3478, seems to be ideal for PSUBS purposes, as it contains it's own converter that will accepts anything between 5 and 36 volts. I'm also probably going to incorporate a temperature sensor that will shut the light down if it gets too hot (running the light for too long out of the water) and killing the electronics/melting the lens. The microcontroller will accept a 0-5 volt analog signal from either a potentiometer or a PLC in order to convert that to a PWM signall to dim the lights. Are there any major features that I'm missing? It seems that PWM dimming and application specific temperature control are the big ones. Curious to get input from those that are running LED rigs right now. -- -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526rdolfi7 at gmail.comrwd5301@psu.edu ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 11:41:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 10:41:11 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM LED driver for Cliff's enclosure In-Reply-To: <393995330.1994601.1492872622954@mail.yahoo.com> References: <393995330.1994601.1492872622954@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am the same way. Don't really see the need to dim external lights. With the muds holes I dive it a mute point anyway! cliff On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 9:50 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I have not ever wanted to dim my light, perhaps I have not been in the > right environment. I am not sure that should be a concern, I mean to > keep it simple. > Hank > > > On Saturday, April 22, 2017 7:32 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I'm still planning on making a second set of lights and so will machine > the enclosure. My first set is 5K, but the next one is 10K. Now having said > that I already have the driver for it, but am happy to test the proposed > one. Ah, and my existing driver lacks dimming so this would also be a plus. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > River, thanks for picking up the ball on the LED driver PCB for the Psub > 10k light. I support everthing you have said but do agree with Alan on the > supply voltage range. A lot of the PSub community use a 36VDC main bus to > drive the Minn Kota 101's for thursters. The expected voltage range for > three 12V batteries in series is on the order of 30-40 volts so 36V max on > the LT3478 is not going to work. See specification of this supply voltage > in the 10K LED project speciation page I sent you. Also, you will need to > change the pin out in the Psub spec. as well as the part number for the > Subconn connector to be able to have diming via a 0-5 VDC analog control > signal. > > For simplicity and KISS, I think we should abandon the optional side mount > on the enclosure drawings I developed and just focus on the rear entry for > the bulkhead connector. Due to the delay in getting a viable driver for > the 10K LED project, a lot of folks have gone their own way on external > lights. We are going to have to get someone that still needs external > lights to machine the prototype enclosure. I am willing to test the > prototype light in my test chamber. > > > Cliff > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:03 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hey everyone, > I've managed to convince a professor at the University to let me tackle > developing a high power LED driver for psubs purposes for a grade. I'm just > curious which features everyone would like in an LED driver. I am designing > a driver for the Bridgelux Vero 29 LED array and will hopefully package it > into a form factor so that all of the electronics fit into the enclosures > Cliff designed and presented at the last convention. > > So far I plan on using a small microcontroller (probably an ATTiny for > those who are interested) to generate a PWM signal that will switch a > MOSFET, to control the amount of power delivered from an off the shelf > constant current LED driver chip. The chip I found, the LT3478, seems to be > ideal for PSUBS purposes, as it contains it's own converter that will > accepts anything between 5 and 36 volts. > > I'm also probably going to incorporate a temperature sensor that will shut > the light down if it gets too hot (running the light for too long out of > the water) and killing the electronics/melting the lens. The > microcontroller will accept a 0-5 volt analog signal from either a > potentiometer or a PLC in order to convert that to a PWM signall to dim the > lights. > > Are there any major features that I'm missing? It seems that PWM dimming > and application specific temperature control are the big ones. Curious to > get input from those that are running LED rigs right now. > > -- > -River J. Dolfi > > 412-997-2526 > rdolfi7 at gmail.com > rwd5301 at psu.edu > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 12:29:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:29:47 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM LED driver for Cliff's enclosure In-Reply-To: References: <393995330.1994601.1492872622954@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3A604329-F356-481E-A51F-E4685BE77A2E@gmail.com> My impression with two 5k lights (although I've only run them on land) is that I agree. But with two 10k lights I'm not sure. The thing is, the current draw might begin to be a factor on a long mission. Best, Alec > On Apr 22, 2017, at 11:41 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I am the same way. Don't really see the need to dim external lights. With the muds holes I dive it a mute point anyway! > > cliff > >> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 9:50 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I have not ever wanted to dim my light, perhaps I have not been in the right environment. I am not sure that should be a concern, I mean to keep it simple. >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, April 22, 2017 7:32 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> I'm still planning on making a second set of lights and so will machine the enclosure. My first set is 5K, but the next one is 10K. Now having said that I already have the driver for it, but am happy to test the proposed one. Ah, and my existing driver lacks dimming so this would also be a plus. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> River, thanks for picking up the ball on the LED driver PCB for the Psub 10k light. I support everthing you have said but do agree with Alan on the supply voltage range. A lot of the PSub community use a 36VDC main bus to drive the Minn Kota 101's for thursters. The expected voltage range for three 12V batteries in series is on the order of 30-40 volts so 36V max on the LT3478 is not going to work. See specification of this supply voltage in the 10K LED project speciation page I sent you. Also, you will need to change the pin out in the Psub spec. as well as the part number for the Subconn connector to be able to have diming via a 0-5 VDC analog control signal. >> >> For simplicity and KISS, I think we should abandon the optional side mount on the enclosure drawings I developed and just focus on the rear entry for the bulkhead connector. Due to the delay in getting a viable driver for the 10K LED project, a lot of folks have gone their own way on external lights. We are going to have to get someone that still needs external lights to machine the prototype enclosure. I am willing to test the prototype light in my test chamber. >> >> >> Cliff >> >> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:03 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hey everyone, >> I've managed to convince a professor at the University to let me tackle developing a high power LED driver for psubs purposes for a grade. I'm just curious which features everyone would like in an LED driver. I am designing a driver for the Bridgelux Vero 29 LED array and will hopefully package it into a form factor so that all of the electronics fit into the enclosures Cliff designed and presented at the last convention. >> >> So far I plan on using a small microcontroller (probably an ATTiny for those who are interested) to generate a PWM signal that will switch a MOSFET, to control the amount of power delivered from an off the shelf constant current LED driver chip. The chip I found, the LT3478, seems to be ideal for PSUBS purposes, as it contains it's own converter that will accepts anything between 5 and 36 volts. >> >> I'm also probably going to incorporate a temperature sensor that will shut the light down if it gets too hot (running the light for too long out of the water) and killing the electronics/melting the lens. The microcontroller will accept a 0-5 volt analog signal from either a potentiometer or a PLC in order to convert that to a PWM signall to dim the lights. >> >> Are there any major features that I'm missing? It seems that PWM dimming and application specific temperature control are the big ones. Curious to get input from those that are running LED rigs right now. >> >> -- >> -River J. Dolfi >> >> 412-997-2526 >> rdolfi7 at gmail.com >> rwd5301 at psu.edu >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 13:15:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 17:15:18 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay Message-ID: Let's keep in touch and compare notes. Some initial thoughts: I have two different style fans inbound, a straight through and a radial. Because the canister loads on the opposite side of the discharge, it means either I'll mount it vertical with the radial fan on the bottom probably all the way aft or horizontally along the aft ceiling with the straight flow discharge pointing forward. Poking around the web it looks like these were designed to be mounted horizontally along the top of a deco chamber. If I went with that, I was thinking a couple squeeze buckle quick disconnect straps attached to two ribs and the ends of the canister drilled and tapped for the other bits. In other words, it could hang down a little, but not rigidly attached. Unclip to remove to refill, etc, Your thoughts? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 13:12:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 17:12:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM LED driver for Cliff's enclosure In-Reply-To: <3A604329-F356-481E-A51F-E4685BE77A2E@gmail.com> References: <393995330.1994601.1492872622954@mail.yahoo.com> <3A604329-F356-481E-A51F-E4685BE77A2E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2021551639.2090783.1492881149325@mail.yahoo.com> My light is 24K ?240W ? but it is spread out apposed to a beam of light. ?As for current draw, imagine, Gamma had a 24V 60A draw for lights. ?I am sure the LED's will be fine.Hank On Saturday, April 22, 2017 10:30 AM, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: My impression with two 5k lights (although I've only run them on land) is that I agree. But with two 10k lights I'm not sure. The thing is, the current draw might begin to be a factor on a long mission. Best, Alec On Apr 22, 2017, at 11:41 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am the same way.? Don't really see the need to dim external lights.? With the muds holes I dive it a mute point anyway! cliff On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 9:50 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have not ever wanted to dim my light, perhaps I have not been in the right?environment.? I am not sure that should be a concern, I mean to keep it simple.Hank On Saturday, April 22, 2017 7:32 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm still planning on making a second set of lights and so will machine the enclosure. My first set is 5K, but the next one is 10K. Now having said that I already have the driver for it, but am happy to test the proposed one. Ah, and my existing driver lacks dimming so this would also be a plus. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: River, thanks for picking up the ball on the LED driver PCB for the Psub 10k light.? I support everthing you have said but do agree with Alan on the supply voltage range.? A lot of the PSub community use a 36VDC main bus to drive the Minn Kota 101's for thursters.? The expected voltage range for three 12V batteries in series is on the order of 30-40 volts so 36V max on the LT3478 is not going to work.? See?specification of this supply voltage in the 10K LED project speciation page I sent you.? Also, you will need to change the pin out in the Psub spec. as well?as the part number for the Subconn connector?to be able to have diming via a 0-5 VDC analog control signal. For simplicity and KISS, I think we should abandon the optional side mount on the enclosure drawings I developed and just focus on the rear entry for the bulkhead connector.? Due to the delay in getting a viable driver for the 10K LED project, a lot of folks have gone their own way on external lights.? We are going to have to get someone that still needs external lights to machine the prototype enclosure.?? I am willing to test the prototype light in my test chamber. Cliff On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:03 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey everyone, I've managed to convince a professor at the University to let me tackle developing a high power LED driver for psubs purposes for a grade. I'm just curious which features everyone would like in an LED driver. I am designing a driver for the Bridgelux Vero 29 LED array and will hopefully package it into a form factor so that all of the electronics fit into the enclosures Cliff designed and presented at the last convention. So far I plan on using a small microcontroller (probably an ATTiny for those who are interested) to generate a PWM signal that will switch a MOSFET, to control the amount of power delivered from an off the shelf constant current LED driver chip. The chip I found, the LT3478, seems to be ideal for PSUBS purposes, as it contains it's own converter that will accepts anything between 5 and 36 volts. I'm also probably going to incorporate a temperature sensor that will shut the light down if it gets too hot (running the light for too long out of the water) and killing the electronics/melting the lens. The microcontroller will accept a 0-5 volt analog signal from either a potentiometer or a PLC in order to convert that to a PWM signall to dim the lights. Are there any major features that I'm missing? It seems that PWM dimming and application specific temperature control are the big ones. Curious to get input from those that are running LED rigs right now. -- -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526rdolfi7 at gmail.comrwd5301@psu.edu ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 13:15:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 17:15:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Karl's tow rig References: <123981938.2083668.1492881353437.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <123981938.2083668.1492881353437@mail.yahoo.com> I heard back from Karl and he can tow at 7.5 mph with his set up. ?He is working on keeping the sub tight inside the boat. ?Pretty nifty!Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 16:19:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 08:19:59 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM LED driver for Cliff's enclosure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: River, with regard to dimming, I think it's a good option. Below are comments on a dive light manufacturers web site... For primary lights, the more power the better, but since bright lights can cause a white-out like having your brights on in the fog, they should have the vast majority of their output in the center beam. This is doubly true for night diving in poor visibility water where higher power can reduce your visibility. Another comment I saw was that for close up photography you may need to back off the power. I am going to use an identical light as my navigation & surface spot lights, so with PWM I can set the light output low for them & have the option of interchanging drivers & lights. Also maybe thermal control of the light would be set up on the pwm circuit. The dimming function in this instance would be important on any lights that are out of the water as they heat up really fast. It may be that from experience you learn to set these above water lights at a certain intensity on the pwm dimming that they can handle. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 23/04/2017, at 12:29 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > River, thanks for picking up the ball on the LED driver PCB for the Psub 10k light. I support everthing you have said but do agree with Alan on the supply voltage range. A lot of the PSub community use a 36VDC main bus to drive the Minn Kota 101's for thursters. The expected voltage range for three 12V batteries in series is on the order of 30-40 volts so 36V max on the LT3478 is not going to work. See specification of this supply voltage in the 10K LED project speciation page I sent you. Also, you will need to change the pin out in the Psub spec. as well as the part number for the Subconn connector to be able to have diming via a 0-5 VDC analog control signal. > > For simplicity and KISS, I think we should abandon the optional side mount on the enclosure drawings I developed and just focus on the rear entry for the bulkhead connector. Due to the delay in getting a viable driver for the 10K LED project, a lot of folks have gone their own way on external lights. We are going to have to get someone that still needs external lights to machine the prototype enclosure. I am willing to test the prototype light in my test chamber. > > > Cliff > >> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:03 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hey everyone, >> I've managed to convince a professor at the University to let me tackle developing a high power LED driver for psubs purposes for a grade. I'm just curious which features everyone would like in an LED driver. I am designing a driver for the Bridgelux Vero 29 LED array and will hopefully package it into a form factor so that all of the electronics fit into the enclosures Cliff designed and presented at the last convention. >> >> So far I plan on using a small microcontroller (probably an ATTiny for those who are interested) to generate a PWM signal that will switch a MOSFET, to control the amount of power delivered from an off the shelf constant current LED driver chip. The chip I found, the LT3478, seems to be ideal for PSUBS purposes, as it contains it's own converter that will accepts anything between 5 and 36 volts. >> >> I'm also probably going to incorporate a temperature sensor that will shut the light down if it gets too hot (running the light for too long out of the water) and killing the electronics/melting the lens. The microcontroller will accept a 0-5 volt analog signal from either a potentiometer or a PLC in order to convert that to a PWM signall to dim the lights. >> >> Are there any major features that I'm missing? It seems that PWM dimming and application specific temperature control are the big ones. Curious to get input from those that are running LED rigs right now. >> >> -- >> -River J. Dolfi >> >> 412-997-2526 >> rdolfi7 at gmail.com >> rwd5301 at psu.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 16:26:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 16:26:06 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Brian, I think this is virtually identical to the scrubbers on Snoopy and Shackleton. If it's any help, I use Delta Electronics model BFB0712H, which is readily available from say Digikey. A handy way to install these is just with bungee cords around the barrel. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Let's keep in touch and compare notes. Some initial thoughts: > > I have two different style fans inbound, a straight through and a radial. > Because the canister loads on the opposite side of the discharge, it means > either I'll mount it vertical with the radial fan on the bottom probably > all the way aft or horizontally along the aft ceiling with the straight > flow discharge pointing forward. > > Poking around the web it looks like these were designed to be mounted > horizontally along the top of a deco chamber. If I went with that, I was > thinking a couple squeeze buckle quick disconnect straps attached to two > ribs and the ends of the canister drilled and tapped for the other bits. In > other words, it could hang down a little, but not rigidly attached. Unclip > to remove to refill, etc, Your thoughts? > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 16:40:34 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 08:40:34 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PWM LED driver for Cliff's enclosure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the dimming subject again, I mentioned previously that on the data sheet I posted a link to http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2160797.pdf?_ga=1.31757435.455949694.1492842236 it has a PWM dimming control circuit. This circuit goes on your output lead to the LED & has 3 components, you can add a capacitor if you feel it's needed. I believe it could be retro fitted to The driver units Alec bought. I will give it a go some time. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 23/04/2017, at 8:19 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > River, > with regard to dimming, I think it's a good option. Below are comments > on a dive light manufacturers web site... > For primary lights, the more power the better, but since bright lights can cause a white-out like having your brights on in the fog, they should have the vast majority of their output in the center beam. This is doubly true for night diving in poor visibility water where higher power can reduce your visibility. > Another comment I saw was that for close up photography you may need to > back off the power. > I am going to use an identical light as my navigation & surface spot lights, so with > PWM I can set the light output low for them & have the option of interchanging > drivers & lights. Also maybe thermal control of the light would be set up on the pwm circuit. The dimming function in this instance would be important on any lights > that are out of the water as they heat up really fast. It may be that from experience > you learn to set these above water lights at a certain intensity on the pwm dimming > that they can handle. > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 23/04/2017, at 12:29 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> River, thanks for picking up the ball on the LED driver PCB for the Psub 10k light. I support everthing you have said but do agree with Alan on the supply voltage range. A lot of the PSub community use a 36VDC main bus to drive the Minn Kota 101's for thursters. The expected voltage range for three 12V batteries in series is on the order of 30-40 volts so 36V max on the LT3478 is not going to work. See specification of this supply voltage in the 10K LED project speciation page I sent you. Also, you will need to change the pin out in the Psub spec. as well as the part number for the Subconn connector to be able to have diming via a 0-5 VDC analog control signal. >> >> For simplicity and KISS, I think we should abandon the optional side mount on the enclosure drawings I developed and just focus on the rear entry for the bulkhead connector. Due to the delay in getting a viable driver for the 10K LED project, a lot of folks have gone their own way on external lights. We are going to have to get someone that still needs external lights to machine the prototype enclosure. I am willing to test the prototype light in my test chamber. >> >> >> Cliff >> >>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:03 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Hey everyone, >>> I've managed to convince a professor at the University to let me tackle developing a high power LED driver for psubs purposes for a grade. I'm just curious which features everyone would like in an LED driver. I am designing a driver for the Bridgelux Vero 29 LED array and will hopefully package it into a form factor so that all of the electronics fit into the enclosures Cliff designed and presented at the last convention. >>> >>> So far I plan on using a small microcontroller (probably an ATTiny for those who are interested) to generate a PWM signal that will switch a MOSFET, to control the amount of power delivered from an off the shelf constant current LED driver chip. The chip I found, the LT3478, seems to be ideal for PSUBS purposes, as it contains it's own converter that will accepts anything between 5 and 36 volts. >>> >>> I'm also probably going to incorporate a temperature sensor that will shut the light down if it gets too hot (running the light for too long out of the water) and killing the electronics/melting the lens. The microcontroller will accept a 0-5 volt analog signal from either a potentiometer or a PLC in order to convert that to a PWM signall to dim the lights. >>> >>> Are there any major features that I'm missing? It seems that PWM dimming and application specific temperature control are the big ones. Curious to get input from those that are running LED rigs right now. >>> >>> -- >>> -River J. Dolfi >>> >>> 412-997-2526 >>> rdolfi7 at gmail.com >>> rwd5301 at psu.edu >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 18:08:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 22:08:07 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay Message-ID: Alec, Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. If it works, straight flow fan. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 19:07:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 19:07:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Brian, If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used > to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If it works, straight flow fan. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 22:42:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 02:42:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1158044131.7012701.1492915337424@mail.yahoo.com> Alec, How does your fan compare to a centrifugal blower of the same wattage as far as pressure is concerned?? Thanks- Greg From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay Hi Brian, I think this is virtually identical to the scrubbers on Snoopy and Shackleton. If it's any help, I use Delta Electronics model BFB0712H, which is readily available from say Digikey. A handy way to install these is just with bungee cords around the barrel. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Let's keep in touch and compare notes. Some initial thoughts:I have two different style fans inbound, a straight through and a radial. Because the canister loads on the opposite side of the discharge, it means either I'll mount it vertical with the radial fan on the bottom probably all the way aft or horizontally along the aft ceiling with the straight flow discharge pointing forward.Poking around the web it looks like these were designed to be mounted horizontally along the top of a deco chamber. If I went with that, I was thinking a couple squeeze buckle quick disconnect straps attached to two ribs and the ends of the canister drilled and tapped for the other bits. In other words, it could hang down a little, but not rigidly attached. Unclip to remove to refill, etc, Your thoughts?Brian ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 22 22:53:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 22:53:47 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: <1158044131.7012701.1492915337424@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1158044131.7012701.1492915337424@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My fan IS a centrifugal blower! :) On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 10:42 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > > How does your fan compare to a centrifugal blower of the same wattage as > far as pressure is concerned? > > Thanks- Greg > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 22, 2017 4:28 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > Hi Brian, > > I think this is virtually identical to the scrubbers on Snoopy and > Shackleton. If it's any help, I use Delta Electronics model BFB0712H, which > is readily available from say Digikey. A handy way to install these is just > with bungee cords around the barrel. > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Let's keep in touch and compare notes. Some initial thoughts: > I have two different style fans inbound, a straight through and a radial. > Because the canister loads on the opposite side of the discharge, it means > either I'll mount it vertical with the radial fan on the bottom probably > all the way aft or horizontally along the aft ceiling with the straight > flow discharge pointing forward. > Poking around the web it looks like these were designed to be mounted > horizontally along the top of a deco chamber. If I went with that, I was > thinking a couple squeeze buckle quick disconnect straps attached to two > ribs and the ends of the canister drilled and tapped for the other bits. In > other words, it could hang down a little, but not rigidly attached. Unclip > to remove to refill, etc, Your thoughts? > Brian > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 08:09:27 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 12:09:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <1158044131.7012701.1492915337424@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1662593407.7160330.1492949367190@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,The reason I ask is because I looked up the part number and the image shown was a coaxial fan.? Greg From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay My fan IS a centrifugal blower! :) On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 10:42 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, How does your fan compare to a centrifugal blower of the same wattage as far as pressure is concerned?? Thanks- Greg From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay Hi Brian, I think this is virtually identical to the scrubbers on Snoopy and Shackleton. If it's any help, I use Delta Electronics model BFB0712H, which is readily available from say Digikey. A handy way to install these is just with bungee cords around the barrel. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Let's keep in touch and compare notes. Some initial thoughts:I have two different style fans inbound, a straight through and a radial. Because the canister loads on the opposite side of the discharge, it means either I'll mount it vertical with the radial fan on the bottom probably all the way aft or horizontally along the aft ceiling with the straight flow discharge pointing forward.Poking around the web it looks like these were designed to be mounted horizontally along the top of a deco chamber. If I went with that, I was thinking a couple squeeze buckle quick disconnect straps attached to two ribs and the ends of the canister drilled and tapped for the other bits. In other words, it could hang down a little, but not rigidly attached. Unclip to remove to refill, etc, Your thoughts?Brian ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 13:11:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 12:11:43 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. . [image: Inline image 2] Cliff On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this > purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop > very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now > has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same > results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alec, >> >> Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used >> to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from >> the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. >> If it works, straight flow fan. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 68544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 13:22:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 11:22:51 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: 2L4Dd0g31EEAr2L4Edng2J References: 2L4Dd0g31EEAr2L4Edng2J Message-ID: <43f584a6-9860-4ad6-9663-b21630eb9a07@email.android.com> Cliff, I have to wonder if extending the battery duration is a simple matter of reducing the resistance on the blower, by either increasing the length of the scrubber or both the internal and external diameters? On April 23, 2017 11:11:43 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work >the >scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The >first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air >flow >throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule >applies >for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a >distinction >on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as >the >specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by >the >supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure >rather >than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, >they >call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it >compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is >a >blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans >like >you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for >high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air >through >the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting >flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere >near >their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were >squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC >axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models of >squirrel >blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from Papst, model >RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of >7.5 W >which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come >up >all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you >have to >demonstrate that your life support system will operate through the the >emergency time period which is 72 hours on the backup battery. The >current >during this period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. >When >I tested axial PC fans, they were great on battery endurance because >they >pull a very low current but they did not work well because they did not >have enough head to overcome the pressure drop through the CO2 >absorbent >material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This showed up as having erratic >CO2 >levels in the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less >than >ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). When I tried larger axial >fans >like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep the CO2 level >below >the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and would not last >anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage >blower turned out to be perfect with enough head to circulated the >cabin >air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm but also because >they >only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me meet the 72 ABS >endurance >limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel load current through >my >backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery as a function >of >time on a life support test in my boat. You can see from the graph at >about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. Also >the >hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps >over >the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps >that I >had designed around. I need to go back and look at the contributors to >this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours >because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to >entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For >reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If >you >divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of >100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. >. > >[image: Inline image 2] > > >Cliff > > > > > >On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Brian, >> >> If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a >> computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for >this >> purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but >develop >> very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using >now >> has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the >same >> results. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Alec, >>> >>> Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, >used >>> to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber >from >>> the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the >middle. >>> If it works, straight flow fan. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 13:56:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 12:56:11 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: <43f584a6-9860-4ad6-9663-b21630eb9a07@email.android.com> References: <43f584a6-9860-4ad6-9663-b21630eb9a07@email.android.com> Message-ID: Sean, for sure a redesign of scrubber could reduce head requirement and thus reduce current. It's probably more work than I want to do given that I am happy with scrubber container I am using which is an OTS charcoal filter that was cheap and readily available from my major supplier, Ebay. I am using the same unit Alec used in Snoopy and gave a show and tell at the Vancouver PSub convention. I think it might be easier just to go to 120 Ah batteries with the same form factor if I can find them. When I did the test, I had my comms on the whole time. If I ran the comms 75% of the time, I would meet the 72 hour constraint. Cliff On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 12:22 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Cliff, I have to wonder if extending the battery duration is a simple > matter of reducing the resistance on the blower, by either increasing the > length of the scrubber or both the internal and external diameters? > > > On April 23, 2017 11:11:43 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work >> the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The >> first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow >> throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies >> for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a >> distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter >> known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure >> divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute >> pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio >> less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than >> 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 >> and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber >> was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these >> are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to >> push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and >> the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating >> anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked >> better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates >> than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models >> of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from >> Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power >> rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, >> these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to >> meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will >> operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the >> backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel >> Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great >> on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not >> work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure >> drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This >> showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to >> sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). >> When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the >> unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way >> much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, >> model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with >> enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level >> typically below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This >> blower did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below >> is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage >> across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in >> my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the >> backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 >> amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load >> was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I >> need to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if >> I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real >> emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could >> utilize at least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup >> battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity >> by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 >> hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. >> . >> >> [image: Inline image 2] >> >> >> Cliff >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>> If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a >>> computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this >>> purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop >>> very little pressure. I've t! ested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now >>> has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same >>> results. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Alec, >>>> >>>> Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, >>>> used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber >>>> from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the >>>> middle. If it works, straight flow fan. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 14:29:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 18:29:43 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay Message-ID: Thanks for the detailed data for engineering CO2 removal. It gets you to thinking, likely there are not many people on the planet who share these concerns and expertise. :-) 72 hours isn't my goal. If there was a potential emergency that would keep me down that long, I'd equalize the interior and do a free ascent. Well, unless I did something exceedingly stupid like drive into a tunnel or get caught in an overhead environment then I'd deserve what happened to me. My goal is six hours max inside Harold with the potential for a passenger - otherwise it's time to boogie and leave Harold on the bottom. I come at this as a fool who used to build DIY KISS style mixed gas rebreathers. I've built one canister approach that mimics what Kittredge used in his K600. This eBay score should give me Alec style capacity for a passenger. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 16:39:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 13:39:08 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay Message-ID: <20170423133908.84309161@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 68544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 17:33:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 21:33:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Cliff,Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of things they would be- Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too.?Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing air through which lowers pressure.However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits.Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance depending on scrubber design. So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration of dive (especially in an emergency). For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media.One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. Greg C From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments,?a few years back I did some work the scrubber for my one-manboat and came away with some conclusions.?The first was that a radial design was better than an axial design forair flow throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule appliesfor fan/blower associated with the scrubber.?Engineers make a distinction on equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the specificratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the supply pressurewhere each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather than gagepressure.? If the device has a specificratio less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and1.2, it is a blower.? What I found from mytesting on the scrubber was that fans like you would typically see on PC areaxial flow and these are designed for high flow rates but low head. When youtry and use them to push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't haveenough head and the resulting flowrate is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywherenear their best efficiency point (BEP).?What I found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These aredesigned for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrelblade blowers that would work but the model I use is from Papst, modelRL90-18/24.? This blower operates off24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come upall the time.? Back to the goldilocksrule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstratethat your life support system will operate through the the emergency timeperiod which is 72 hours on the backup battery.?The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obviousreasons.? When I tested axial PC fans,they were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current butthey did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome thepressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case.?? This showed up as having erratic CO2 levelsin the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less than ABS requiredmaximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%).? When I triedlarger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep theCO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and ?would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model RL90-18/24 squirrel cageblower turned out to be ?perfect withenough head to circulated? the cabinair? to keep the CO2 level typicallybelow 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet the 72 ABSendurance limit but got me close.? Belowis a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltageacross the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in myboat.? You can see from the graph atabout 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted.? Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 ampsbut slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the1.5 amps that I had designed around.? Ineed to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if Ican reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hoursbecause during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement,I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For reference, the backup battery consist oftwo AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you divide the capacity by the hotel loadyou get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did betterthan expected.? . Cliff? On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian, If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If it works, straight flow fan. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 68544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 18:37:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 10:37:28 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> Some great thoughts thanks. This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule size) Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of coffee grind in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this would have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for the water to flow through the grind to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan & the flow rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is dictated by the size of the hull & number of passengers. Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & during the day. Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to balance if you want it perfect! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. If it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 19:57:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 23:57:48 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Message-ID: My scrubber for one person, based on what Kittredge came up with, is built around the prefilled canisters used by anesthesiologists. I got a deal on two of the plastic cylinders used on their machines and used one of them with parts I printed out based on Alec's design. A box of the canisters can be had cheap on eBay. Fan is the same one Alec's been recommending. The same device will work without the tube from the anesthesia machine, like what the captain came up with, but I think it looks more complete this way. Looking at the K600 pictures it's pretty clear someone modified parts from a vintage anesthesia machine so, what the heck, if THE MAN did it, what's not to like? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 20:19:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 00:19:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lung powered scrubber In-Reply-To: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <506756948.7519850.1492993146107@mail.yahoo.com> Here's an example of a simple emergency scrubber- Comex Emergency Respiratory Unit (ERU) for Lung Powered Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Scrubber ER-216-000 | | | | $ 477.10 | | | | | | | Comex Emergency Respiratory Unit (ERU) for Lung Powered Carbon Dioxide (CO2... Comex Lung Powered Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Scrubber ER-216-000 ensures the scrubbing of the carbon dioxide containe... | | | | From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Hi Cliff,Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of things they would be- Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too.?Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing air through which lowers pressure.However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits.Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance depending on scrubber design. So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration of dive (especially in an emergency). For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media.One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. Greg C From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments,?a few years back I did some work the scrubber for my one-manboat and came away with some conclusions.?The first was that a radial design was better than an axial design forair flow throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule appliesfor fan/blower associated with the scrubber.?Engineers make a distinction on equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the specificratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the supply pressurewhere each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather than gagepressure.? If the device has a specificratio less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and1.2, it is a blower.? What I found from mytesting on the scrubber was that fans like you would typically see on PC areaxial flow and these are designed for high flow rates but low head. When youtry and use them to push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't haveenough head and the resulting flowrate is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywherenear their best efficiency point (BEP).?What I found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These aredesigned for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrelblade blowers that would work but the model I use is from Papst, modelRL90-18/24.? This blower operates off24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come upall the time.? Back to the goldilocksrule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstratethat your life support system will operate through the the emergency timeperiod which is 72 hours on the backup battery.?The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obviousreasons.? When I tested axial PC fans,they were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current butthey did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome thepressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case.?? This showed up as having erratic CO2 levelsin the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less than ABS requiredmaximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%).? When I triedlarger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep theCO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and ?would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model RL90-18/24 squirrel cageblower turned out to be ?perfect withenough head to circulated? the cabinair? to keep the CO2 level typicallybelow 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet the 72 ABSendurance limit but got me close.? Belowis a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltageacross the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in myboat.? You can see from the graph atabout 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted.? Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 ampsbut slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the1.5 amps that I had designed around.? Ineed to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if Ican reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hoursbecause during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement,I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For reference, the backup battery consist oftwo AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you divide the capacity by the hotel loadyou get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did betterthan expected.? . Cliff? On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian, If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If it works, straight flow fan. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 68544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 20:44:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 00:44:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lung powered scrubber In-Reply-To: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1102552083.7492564.1492994683147@mail.yahoo.com> https://www.amronintl.com/downloads/dl/file/id/125/product/12731/2011_amron_international_catalog_page_46.pdf From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Hi Cliff,Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of things they would be- Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too.?Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing air through which lowers pressure.However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits.Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance depending on scrubber design. So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration of dive (especially in an emergency). For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media.One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. Greg C From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments,?a few years back I did some work the scrubber for my one-manboat and came away with some conclusions.?The first was that a radial design was better than an axial design forair flow throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule appliesfor fan/blower associated with the scrubber.?Engineers make a distinction on equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the specificratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the supply pressurewhere each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather than gagepressure.? If the device has a specificratio less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and1.2, it is a blower.? What I found from mytesting on the scrubber was that fans like you would typically see on PC areaxial flow and these are designed for high flow rates but low head. When youtry and use them to push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't haveenough head and the resulting flowrate is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywherenear their best efficiency point (BEP).?What I found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These aredesigned for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrelblade blowers that would work but the model I use is from Papst, modelRL90-18/24.? This blower operates off24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come upall the time.? Back to the goldilocksrule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstratethat your life support system will operate through the the emergency timeperiod which is 72 hours on the backup battery.?The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obviousreasons.? When I tested axial PC fans,they were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current butthey did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome thepressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case.?? This showed up as having erratic CO2 levelsin the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less than ABS requiredmaximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%).? When I triedlarger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep theCO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and ?would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model RL90-18/24 squirrel cageblower turned out to be ?perfect withenough head to circulated? the cabinair? to keep the CO2 level typicallybelow 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet the 72 ABSendurance limit but got me close.? Belowis a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltageacross the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in myboat.? You can see from the graph atabout 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted.? Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 ampsbut slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the1.5 amps that I had designed around.? Ineed to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if Ican reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hoursbecause during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement,I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For reference, the backup battery consist oftwo AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you divide the capacity by the hotel loadyou get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did betterthan expected.? . Cliff? On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian, If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If it works, straight flow fan. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 68544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 21:11:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 20:11:53 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 scrubber wrong you die! Cliff On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Some great thoughts thanks. > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( > granule size) > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of > coffee grind > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber > this would > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > the water to flow through the grind > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous > factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by > the fan & the flow > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this > is dictated > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & > during > the day. > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > balance if > you want it perfect! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor > performance depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work > the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The > first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow > throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies > for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a > distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter > known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure > divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute > pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio > less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than > 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 > and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber > was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these > are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to > push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and > the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating > anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked > better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates > than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models > of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from > Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power > rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, > these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to > meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will > operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the > backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel > Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great > on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not > work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure > drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This > showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to > sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the > unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way > much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, > model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with > enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically > below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower > did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below > is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage > across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in > my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the > backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 > amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load > was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I need > to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if I can > reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real emergency > like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could utilize at > least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup battery > consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity by the > hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my > 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this > purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop > very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now > has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same > results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used > to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 21:26:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 20:26:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good points on humidity control, pushing vs, pulling, cartridges and oral scrubbing. There are a lot of variables in scrubbing CO2 to consider. Sure would like to see some energetic psubber take the NCSC TECH manual 4110-1-83 and code it Excel. This report looks like it has just about everhting you would need to really do a good job in understanding and designing a scrubber and since we are dealing with 1 atm in our boats, it would be somewhat easier. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjWzpGz9rvTAhVB32MKHfU4A7YQFgglMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdtic.mil%2Fcgi-bin%2FGetTRDoc%3FAD%3DADA160181&usg=AFQjCNEkEuITHpiL3OhlPfSkacVD6iL3iA&sig2=XY2tHSXx4crDhJEIrLXalQ On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 4:33 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor > performance depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work > the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The > first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow > throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies > for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a > distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter > known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure > divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute > pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio > less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than > 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 > and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber > was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these > are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to > push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and > the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating > anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked > better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates > than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models > of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from > Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power > rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, > these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to > meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will > operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the > backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel > Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great > on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not > work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure > drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This > showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to > sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the > unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way > much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, > model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with > enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically > below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower > did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below > is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage > across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in > my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the > backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 > amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load > was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I need > to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if I can > reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real emergency > like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could utilize at > least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup battery > consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity by the > hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my > 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > [image: Inline image 2] > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this > purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop > very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now > has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same > results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used > to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 68544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 21:28:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 20:28:42 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lung powered scrubber In-Reply-To: <1102552083.7492564.1492994683147@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <1102552083.7492564.1492994683147@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: nice On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 7:44 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > https://www.amronintl.com/downloads/dl/file/id/125/ > product/12731/2011_amron_international_catalog_page_46.pdf > > ------------------------------ > *From:* james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:39 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor > performance depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work > the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The > first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow > throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies > for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a > distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter > known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure > divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute > pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio > less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than > 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 > and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber > was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these > are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to > push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and > the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating > anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked > better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates > than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models > of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from > Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power > rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, > these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to > meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will > operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the > backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel > Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great > on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not > work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure > drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This > showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to > sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the > unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way > much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, > model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with > enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically > below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower > did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below > is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage > across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in > my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the > backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 > amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load > was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I need > to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if I can > reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real emergency > like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could utilize at > least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup battery > consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity by the > hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my > 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > [image: Inline image 2] > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this > purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop > very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now > has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same > results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used > to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 68544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 21:29:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 13:29:42 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <77BABB80-AA68-4504-B28D-15B50D98D727@yahoo.com> Cliff, forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > >> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Some great thoughts thanks. >> This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! >> You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule size) >> Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of coffee grind >> in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this would >> have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for the water to flow through the grind >> to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan & the flow >> rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is dictated >> by the size of the hull & number of passengers. >> Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & during >> the day. >> Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to balance if >> you want it perfect! >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Cliff, >>> Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of things they would be- >>> >>> Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. >>> Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing air through which lowers pressure. >>> However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. >>> Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance depending on scrubber design. >>> >>> So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration of dive (especially in an emergency). >>> >>> For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. >>> One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. >>> >>> Greg C >>> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay >>> >>> To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>> If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Alec, >>> Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. If it works, straight flow fan. >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 23:00:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 03:00:14 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lung powered scrubber Message-ID: My buddy Tom Rose and I use to swap email stories and lies about our latest rebreather projects. I gave away all of my parts and such when when Tom passed away a few years ago.. He didn't die from one of his contraptions, but a heart attack. See link below about his $100.00 O2 rebreather. Unfortunately his site must have been taken down by his family, removing info about all his projects. A true loss. But all this talk has me thinking, maybe I'll come up with a long lasting O2 rebreather that can be stored for emergencies. Shouldn't be too hard as refillable Russian surplus scrubber canisters show up all the time on eBay. http://cedu-diver.com/award.htm Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 23:27:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 03:27:51 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lung powered scrubber Message-ID: Stick a counter lung on the bottom of it, add an O2 inlet to the canister and you'd have a WWII era pendulum rebreather. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 23 23:44:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 03:44:22 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DIY Pendulum rebreather - potential backup Message-ID: I had nothing better to do this evening so I poked around the web and found a russian site that had captured Tom Rose's old page on building a pendulum rebreather. Too many projects right now, but maybe something for next winter and the building season - scale it up for emergency rebreather in Harold. http://diveright.ru/viewtopic.php?t=4572&sid=e75337e556512098ded9e66bfbe0a8ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 24 00:14:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 04:14:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Scrubber color sensor References: <1260591743.332589.1493007273325.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1260591743.332589.1493007273325@mail.yahoo.com> I like the idea of color indicating absorbent, only problem is my scrubber will be positioned where I can't see it.I just did a quick Google & came up with this color sensor.RGB Color Sensor with IR filter and White LED - TCS34725 | | | RGB Color Sensor with IR filter and White LED - TCS34725 By Adafruit Industries Your electronics can now see in dazzling color with this lovely color light sensor. We found the best color sens... | | | If you put multiple sensors down the outside of an acrylic scrubber canister you couldread the color change in the absorbent & have it displayed elsewhere. You could perhaps use the one sensor board with multiple sensors. Another?variation isthat you may be able to pick up the heat from the chemical reaction with the infraredsensor & monitor levels that way.??An additional thought on this subject is to put?a second?CO2 sensor at the outlet of the scrubber to pick up early when there were higher concentrations of CO2 coming out.So sensor 1 is the ambient atmosphere concentration & sensor 2 is showing whatlevel of CO2 there is from the scrubber that will be mixing with the atmosphere.Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 24 03:30:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:30:55 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DIY Pendulum rebreather - potential backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7AC5C033-76EC-473B-BC86-E04B02633EDC@yahoo.com> Thanks Brian, he looks like quite a character. A hot water bottle rebreather! ? Alan Sent from my iPad > On 24/04/2017, at 3:44 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I had nothing better to do this evening so I poked around the web and found a russian site that had captured Tom Rose's old page on building a pendulum rebreather. Too many projects right now, but maybe something for next winter and the building season - scale it up for emergency rebreather in Harold. > > > http://diveright.ru/viewtopic.php?t=4572&sid=e75337e556512098ded9e66bfbe0a8ca > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 24 08:14:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 12:14:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Scrubber color sensor In-Reply-To: <1260591743.332589.1493007273325@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1260591743.332589.1493007273325.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1260591743.332589.1493007273325@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <327793918.2922963.1493036080111@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I love your solutions, ?not within the KISS principal mind you. ?I like your idea to use a toy helicopter levelling system to control solenoids for level sinking. ??I just keep track of the time my scrubber is on.?Hank On Sunday, April 23, 2017 10:14 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I like the idea of color indicating absorbent, only problem is my scrubber will be positioned where I can't see it.I just did a quick Google & came up with this color sensor.RGB Color Sensor with IR filter and White LED - TCS34725 | | | RGB Color Sensor with IR filter and White LED - TCS34725 By Adafruit Industries Your electronics can now see in dazzling color with this lovely color light sensor. We found the best color sens... | | | If you put multiple sensors down the outside of an acrylic scrubber canister you couldread the color change in the absorbent & have it displayed elsewhere. You could perhaps use the one sensor board with multiple sensors. Another?variation isthat you may be able to pick up the heat from the chemical reaction with the infraredsensor & monitor levels that way.??An additional thought on this subject is to put?a second?CO2 sensor at the outlet of the scrubber to pick up early when there were higher concentrations of CO2 coming out.So sensor 1 is the ambient atmosphere concentration & sensor 2 is showing whatlevel of CO2 there is from the scrubber that will be mixing with the atmosphere.Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 24 11:29:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:29:47 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DIY Pendulum rebreather - potential backup Message-ID: <002c01d2bd0f$9b863a30$d292ae90$@gmail.com> Here's an example of one of mine from a few years ago. It was based on a hacked former East German military O2 rebreather and turned into a small, portable KISS mixed gas. See, I was crazy before I bought Lake Diver. From what I've heard about Harold, I think he would approve of the kind of nut who bought his boat. I also converted a Biopak 45 to use underwater and was converting a BioPak 60 into a mixed gas rebreather. Then I had my heart attack and then my friend Tom died. So no more stupid rebreather tricks. At least for diving. As per a backup in a sub, you know .. A canister made out of acrylic like the original canister lights - closed at one end, clamps at the other for filling etc, a camel back water bag as counter lung (even has straps for carrying and such - rework for chest mounting), either a quick disconnect inlet for attaching to main O2 supply in the sub or some small bottles in the sub (even the little ones you get at Home Depot for welding as Dr. Bob used those for his DIY 02 rebreathers, gave him about an hour per bottle while swimming) that inputs into the canister and some sofnolime. It could happen. Rather than continuing to vent replacement 02 into the entire sub in an emergency, only into the canister. Should be easy to make - half a day at most. Brian https://www.instagram.com/p/BTRdGvcFBS6/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 24 13:27:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:27:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lung powered scrubber In-Reply-To: References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <1102552083.7492564.1492994683147@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1957649274.8241359.1493054826687@mail.yahoo.com> Rebreather canister sized to use choice of?micropore cartridges or granules. Dive Rite O2ptima 2015 Scrubber Canister - Packable/EAC | | | | $ 599.00 | | | | | | | Dive Rite O2ptima 2015 Scrubber Canister - Packable/EAC This Dive Rite O2ptima 2015 scrubber canister may be loaded with an Extendair cartridge or you can self-pack it ... | | | | Greg C From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lung powered scrubber nice On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 7:44 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: https://www.amronintl.com/ downloads/dl/file/id/125/ product/12731/2011_amron_ international_catalog_page_46. pdf From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Hi Cliff,Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of things they would be- Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too.?Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing air through which lowers pressure.However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits.Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance depending on scrubber design. So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration of dive (especially in an emergency). For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media.One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. Greg C From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments,?a few years back I did some work the scrubber for my one-manboat and came away with some conclusions.?The first was that a radial design was better than an axial design forair flow throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule appliesfor fan/blower associated with the scrubber.?Engineers make a distinction on equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the specificratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the supply pressurewhere each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather than gagepressure.? If the device has a specificratio less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and1.2, it is a blower.? What I found from mytesting on the scrubber was that fans like you would typically see on PC areaxial flow and these are designed for high flow rates but low head. When youtry and use them to push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't haveenough head and the resulting flowrate is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywherenear their best efficiency point (BEP).?What I found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These aredesigned for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrelblade blowers that would work but the model I use is from Papst, modelRL90-18/24.? This blower operates off24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come upall the time.? Back to the goldilocksrule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstratethat your life support system will operate through the the emergency timeperiod which is 72 hours on the backup battery.?The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obviousreasons.? When I tested axial PC fans,they were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current butthey did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome thepressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case.?? This showed up as having erratic CO2 levelsin the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less than ABS requiredmaximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%).? When I triedlarger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep theCO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and ?would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model RL90-18/24 squirrel cageblower turned out to be ?perfect withenough head to circulated? the cabinair? to keep the CO2 level typicallybelow 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet the 72 ABSendurance limit but got me close.? Belowis a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltageacross the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in myboat.? You can see from the graph atabout 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted.? Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 ampsbut slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the1.5 amps that I had designed around.? Ineed to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if Ican reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hoursbecause during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement,I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For reference, the backup battery consist oftwo AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you divide the capacity by the hotel loadyou get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did betterthan expected.? . Cliff? On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian, If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If it works, straight flow fan. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 68544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 24 14:30:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 08:30:02 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] first stage reg. Message-ID: I bought a new Scuba pro 02 cleaned first stage regulator (MK ll) several years ago per a thread going around on this site as the preferred reg as my HP 02 tanks were going to be outside the sub and subject to the ambient water pressure. My original thought was to daisy-chain them both together and then use the one reg to break the pressure down before coming inside the sub but I now want to be able to pull off of only one bottle at a time so when checking into getting another Scuba pro MK ll, they said that it was unbalanced. Doesn't it have to be balanced so that it is always giving me around 140-150 psi over ambient to the sub? I don't think it would be a problem as it is always pushing the LP 02 into a one atmosphere area but am having a brain fart about this. Doesn't the first stage have a spring in it that is subject to the ambient water pressures that would lessen the output pressure the deeper you go? Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 24 16:14:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 08:14:53 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Scrubber color sensor In-Reply-To: <327793918.2922963.1493036080111@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1260591743.332589.1493007273325.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1260591743.332589.1493007273325@mail.yahoo.com> <327793918.2922963.1493036080111@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <68B3940D-EC18-4A0B-9BF6-FDEE91D1DCA9@yahoo.com> Hank, I nearly said it is in line with my KIC ( Keep It Complicated) principal to wind you up. In my case, in a very small hull, I will have a lot less time to respond if my air content / pressure changes. That's why I'll need 2 scrubbers like DW. I am going to pursue this colour sensor thing as it's just another aid to help monitor absorbent usage. As you say monitoring the time is the best way, & I'll probably do that electronically too! BTW, I notice from your video thar you are not driving a model T Ford anymore! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 25/04/2017, at 12:14 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I love your solutions, not within the KISS principal mind you. I like your idea to use a toy helicopter levelling system to control solenoids for level sinking. I just keep track of the time my scrubber is on. > Hank > > > On Sunday, April 23, 2017 10:14 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I like the idea of color indicating absorbent, > only problem is my scrubber will be positioned where I can't see it. > I just did a quick Google & came up with this color sensor. > RGB Color Sensor with IR filter and White LED - TCS34725 > > RGB Color Sensor with IR filter and White LED - TCS34725 > By Adafruit Industries > Your electronics can now see in dazzling color with this lovely color light sensor. We found the best color sens... > > If you put multiple sensors down the outside of an acrylic scrubber canister you could > read the color change in the absorbent & have it displayed elsewhere. > You could perhaps use the one sensor board with multiple sensors. Another variation is > that you may be able to pick up the heat from the chemical reaction with the infrared > sensor & monitor levels that way. > An additional thought on this subject is to put a second CO2 sensor at the outlet of the > scrubber to pick up early when there were higher concentrations of CO2 coming out. > So sensor 1 is the ambient atmosphere concentration & sensor 2 is showing what > level of CO2 there is from the scrubber that will be mixing with the atmosphere. > Alan > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 24 17:30:35 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 21:30:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Scrubber color sensor In-Reply-To: <68B3940D-EC18-4A0B-9BF6-FDEE91D1DCA9@yahoo.com> References: <1260591743.332589.1493007273325.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1260591743.332589.1493007273325@mail.yahoo.com> <327793918.2922963.1493036080111@mail.yahoo.com> <68B3940D-EC18-4A0B-9BF6-FDEE91D1DCA9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <143813676.3342391.1493069435114@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Yes KIC will wind me up lol. ?I love the dual scrubber plan, I am doing the same. ?No model T, but no power windows and a rubber floor mat. ?Hank On Monday, April 24, 2017 2:15 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I nearly said it is in line with my KIC ( Keep It Complicated) principal towind you up.In my case, in a very small hull, I will have a lot less time to respond ifmy air content / pressure changes. That's why I'll need 2 scrubbers?like DW. I am going to pursue this colour sensor thing as it's just anotheraid to help monitor absorbent usage. As you say monitoring the timeis the best way, & I'll probably do that electronically too!BTW, I notice from your video thar you are not driving a model T Ford anymore!Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/04/2017, at 12:14 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I love your solutions, ?not within the KISS principal mind you. ?I like your idea to use a toy helicopter levelling system to control solenoids for level sinking. ??I just keep track of the time my scrubber is on.?Hank On Sunday, April 23, 2017 10:14 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I like the idea of color indicating absorbent, only problem is my scrubber will be positioned where I can't see it.I just did a quick Google & came up with this color sensor.RGB Color Sensor with IR filter and White LED - TCS34725 | | | RGB Color Sensor with IR filter and White LED - TCS34725 By Adafruit Industries Your electronics can now see in dazzling color with this lovely color light sensor. We found the best color sens... | | | If you put multiple sensors down the outside of an acrylic scrubber canister you couldread the color change in the absorbent & have it displayed elsewhere. You could perhaps use the one sensor board with multiple sensors. Another?variation isthat you may be able to pick up the heat from the chemical reaction with the infraredsensor & monitor levels that way.??An additional thought on this subject is to put?a second?CO2 sensor at the outlet of the scrubber to pick up early when there were higher concentrations of CO2 coming out.So sensor 1 is the ambient atmosphere concentration & sensor 2 is showing whatlevel of CO2 there is from the scrubber that will be mixing with the atmosphere.Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 24 20:53:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 00:53:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubber humidity requirement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <714803370.8658406.1493081599340@mail.yahoo.com> As you can see in this cut away, the scrubber from Bauer forces the incoming air to percolate through a water bath to add moister before moving though the absorption media- it may not be a mandatory feature in sub scrubbers but it does indicate that too little moisture in the scrubber will reduce effectiveness. http://www.scubaengineer.com/pictures/bauer_aeroguard.jpg Greg C From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments,?a few years back I did some work the scrubber for my one-manboat and came away with some conclusions.?The first was that a radial design was better than an axial design forair flow throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule appliesfor fan/blower associated with the scrubber.?Engineers make a distinction on equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the specificratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the supply pressurewhere each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather than gagepressure.? If the device has a specificratio less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and1.2, it is a blower.? What I found from mytesting on the scrubber was that fans like you would typically see on PC areaxial flow and these are designed for high flow rates but low head. When youtry and use them to push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't haveenough head and the resulting flowrate is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywherenear their best efficiency point (BEP).?What I found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These aredesigned for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrelblade blowers that would work but the model I use is from Papst, modelRL90-18/24.? This blower operates off24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come upall the time.? Back to the goldilocksrule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstratethat your life support system will operate through the the emergency timeperiod which is 72 hours on the backup battery.?The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obviousreasons.? When I tested axial PC fans,they were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current butthey did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome thepressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case.?? This showed up as having erratic CO2 levelsin the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less than ABS requiredmaximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%).? When I triedlarger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep theCO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and ?would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model RL90-18/24 squirrel cageblower turned out to be ?perfect withenough head to circulated? the cabinair? to keep the CO2 level typicallybelow 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet the 72 ABSendurance limit but got me close.? Belowis a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltageacross the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in myboat.? You can see from the graph atabout 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted.? Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 ampsbut slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the1.5 amps that I had designed around.? Ineed to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if Ican reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hoursbecause during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement,I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For reference, the backup battery consist oftwo AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you divide the capacity by the hotel loadyou get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did betterthan expected.? . Cliff? On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian, If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If it works, straight flow fan. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 68544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 04:12:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 20:12:24 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Message-ID: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> Hi, I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, but haven't had much luck. I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 08:05:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 12:05:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump In-Reply-To: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <515334357.4029785.1493121950672@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,A pressure washer pump could work, the brass body with rubber plungers should handle salt water. ?I have also looked for a 12V hp pump with no luck.Hank On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 2:12 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, but haven't had much luck. I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 08:31:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 12:31:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump In-Reply-To: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alan, There are now some battery powered?pressure washers that should work fine. Here's a link to one of them- New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze | | | | | | | | | | | New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze Before you had to choose between an electric plug in or a gas engine pressure washer. Now you have a third optio... | | | | Greg C From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Hi, I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, but haven't had much luck. I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 08:46:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 12:46:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump In-Reply-To: <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> Here's one that is 500 psi at 1 GPM- yardforceusa Greg C | | | yardforceusa | | | From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Hi Alan, There are now some battery powered?pressure washers that should work fine. Here's a link to one of them- New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze | | | | | | | | | | | New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze Before you had to choose between an electric plug in or a gas engine pressure washer. Now you have a third optio... | | | | Greg C From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Hi, I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, but haven't had much luck. I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 15:42:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 07:42:05 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump In-Reply-To: <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6051B67B-BF46-42A0-A90F-E2364BABAA95@yahoo.com> Thanks Greg & Hank, size is a determining factor for me as I am building a one person sub smaller than Cliff's R300. That 500 psi battery powered unit looks good Greg. I wonder if I could put salt water through it though! I saw this marine pump that looks a good alternative if I can't find anything in the high pressure range. But it doesn't say you can run salt water through it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Seaflo-100-PSI-Water-Pump-RV-Boat-High-Pressure-Marine-Boat-4-Year-Warranty-/191830266640 It is small, not much bigger than a 1 litre milk bottle (in picture) There is this 1600psi AC water blaster with a "corrosion free for life" pump. https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/karcher-k2-basic-electric-waterblaster-1400-watt/p/269411 Perhaps I could replace the motor with one of my 2000W brushless DC motors? Attached photo is of a water blaster motor & pump I have, one of my DC brushless motors with key way & a 1 litre (quart) bottle of milk for size comparison. Although the water blaster is an AC unit, it has a universal motor & I have run it on 32V DC, but is very weak. Another thought was to pull apart the water blaster pump & hard anodise the aluminium pump body! Here we go again! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 26/04/2017, at 12:46 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here's one that is 500 psi at 1 GPM- > > yardforceusa > > Greg C > > yardforceusa > > > > From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:37 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump > > Hi Alan, > > There are now some battery powered pressure washers that should work fine. Here's a link to one of them- > > New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze > > New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze > Before you had to choose between an electric plug in or a gas engine pressure washer. Now you have a third optio... > > > Greg C > > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:14 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump > > Hi, > I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi > with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, > but haven't had much luck. > I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. > The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I > could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. > Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 134266 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 17:17:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:17:02 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump In-Reply-To: <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is looking pretty good. https://www.bunnings.co.nz/karcher-k1-36v-cordless-waterblaster_p00325546 It has a corrosion free for life pump & the right voltage. About 580 psi. Price US 278- It may be reasonably small once I pull it to bits :) Alan Sent from my iPad > On 26/04/2017, at 12:46 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here's one that is 500 psi at 1 GPM- > > yardforceusa > > Greg C > > yardforceusa > > > > From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:37 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump > > Hi Alan, > > There are now some battery powered pressure washers that should work fine. Here's a link to one of them- > > New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze > > New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze > Before you had to choose between an electric plug in or a gas engine pressure washer. Now you have a third optio... > > > Greg C > > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:14 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump > > Hi, > I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi > with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, > but haven't had much luck. > I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. > The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I > could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. > Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 17:50:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 21:50:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump In-Reply-To: References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <109133120.698457.1493157007312@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,That is perfect! ?and I bet your right that once you tear it down it will be quite small.Hank On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 3:18 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is looking pretty good.https://www.bunnings.co.nz/karcher-k1-36v-cordless-waterblaster_p00325546It has a corrosion free for life pump & the right voltage. About 580 psi. Price US 278-It may be reasonably small once I pull it to bits :)Alan Sent from my iPad On 26/04/2017, at 12:46 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's one that is 500 psi at 1 GPM- yardforceusa Greg C | | | yardforceusa | | | From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Hi Alan, There are now some battery powered?pressure washers that should work fine. Here's a link to one of them- New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze | | | | | | | | | | | New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze Before you had to choose between an electric plug in or a gas engine pressure washer. Now you have a third optio... | | | | Greg C From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Hi, I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, but haven't had much luck. I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 19:38:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 13:38:14 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <77BABB80-AA68-4504-B28D-15B50D98D727@yahoo.com> References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> <77BABB80-AA68-4504-B28D-15B50D98D727@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. Thanks Rick On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your > DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Some great thoughts thanks. >> This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! >> You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( >> granule size) >> Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of >> coffee grind >> in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber >> this would >> have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed >> water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the >> absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for >> the water to flow through the grind >> to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous >> factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by >> the fan & the flow >> rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this >> is dictated >> by the size of the hull & number of passengers. >> Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & >> during >> the day. >> Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to >> balance if >> you want it perfect! >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Cliff, >> Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of >> things they would be- >> >> Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. >> Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher >> pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing >> air through which lowers pressure. >> However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose >> effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. >> Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor >> performance depending on scrubber design. >> >> So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient >> with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration >> of dive (especially in an emergency). >> >> For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs >> provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear >> acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. >> One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather >> cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an >> emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old >> cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. >> >> Greg C >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay >> >> To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work >> the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The >> first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow >> throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies >> for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a >> distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter >> known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure >> divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute >> pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio >> less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than >> 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 >> and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber >> was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these >> are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to >> push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and >> the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating >> anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked >> better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates >> than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models >> of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from >> Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power >> rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, >> these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to >> meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will >> operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the >> backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel >> Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great >> on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not >> work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure >> drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This >> showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to >> sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). >> When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the >> unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way >> much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, >> model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with >> enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level >> typically below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This >> blower did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below >> is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage >> across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in >> my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the >> backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 >> amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load >> was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I >> need to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if >> I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real >> emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could >> utilize at least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup >> battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity >> by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 >> hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. >> . >> >> >> >> >> Cliff >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Brian, >> >> If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a >> computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this >> purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop >> very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now >> has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same >> results. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Alec, >> Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used >> to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from >> the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. >> If it works, straight flow fan. >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 19:48:54 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 23:48:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> <77BABB80-AA68-4504-B28D-15B50D98D727@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <314823425.4631339.1493164134210@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has ?external O2 with a HP line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with medical O2 regulator ?mounted directly ?to that penetrator. ?There is no internal HP O2 line. ?I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure before the hull. ?Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when I first got it.Hank On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see.?Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. Thanks Rick On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z..?We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that?knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit.Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time.Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'llbe contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer tocalculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes I like it,? Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 scrubber wrong you die! Cliff On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some great thoughts thanks.This all seems very much like the art of coffee making!You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule size)Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction.? There is the amount of coffee grindin the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this would?have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for the water to flow through the grind?to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan & the flowrate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is dictated?by the size of the hull & number of passengers.Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & duringthe day.?Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to balance ifyou want it perfect!Alan? ? Sent from my iPad On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Cliff,Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of things they would be- Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too.?Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing air through which lowers pressure.However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits.Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance depending on scrubber design. So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration of dive (especially in an emergency). For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media.One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. Greg C From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments,?a few years back I did some work the scrubber for my one-manboat and came away with some conclusions.?The first was that a radial design was better than an axial design forair flow throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule appliesfor fan/blower associated with the scrubber.?Engineers make a distinction on equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the specificratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the supply pressurewhere each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather than gagepressure.? If the device has a specificratio less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and1.2, it is a blower.? What I found from mytesting on the scrubber was that fans like you would typically see on PC areaxial flow and these are designed for high flow rates but low head. When youtry and use them to push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't haveenough head and the resulting flowrate is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywherenear their best efficiency point (BEP).?What I found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These aredesigned for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrelblade blowers that would work but the model I use is from Papst, modelRL90-18/24.? This blower operates off24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come upall the time.? Back to the goldilocksrule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstratethat your life support system will operate through the the emergency timeperiod which is 72 hours on the backup battery.?The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obviousreasons.? When I tested axial PC fans,they were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current butthey did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome thepressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case.?? This showed up as having erratic CO2 levelsin the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less than ABS requiredmaximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%).? When I triedlarger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep theCO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and ?would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model RL90-18/24 squirrel cageblower turned out to be ?perfect withenough head to circulated? the cabinair? to keep the CO2 level typicallybelow 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet the 72 ABSendurance limit but got me close.? Belowis a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltageacross the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in myboat.? You can see from the graph atabout 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted.? Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 ampsbut slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the1.5 amps that I had designed around.? Ineed to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if Ican reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hoursbecause during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement,I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For reference, the backup battery consist oftwo AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you divide the capacity by the hotel loadyou get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did betterthan expected.? . Cliff? On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian, If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If it works, straight flow fan. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 20:03:44 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 00:03:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump In-Reply-To: <6051B67B-BF46-42A0-A90F-E2364BABAA95@yahoo.com> References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> <6051B67B-BF46-42A0-A90F-E2364BABAA95@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1913474899.9806933.1493165024626@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, I think that you could run saltwater through any of these pumps?as long as?you flush them with fresh water after the dive. The great thing about pumping water out of a soft tank for small subs is that you can fabricate a tank out of plastics or fiberglass that will?fit into an otherwise unusable space. Hard tanks take up a lot of room!Although its been years since my sub was underwater, it has a pair of crescent shaped plastic tanks which conform to the hull and double as seating. Everything should have at least TWO purposes! At first, I had a bronze?rotary pump with a dc motor that pumped them out but after a while I just dumped the water?overboard after the dive (the tanks?were slender enough to get through the hatch).But much of your set up will depend on how you dive. Initially, I dove the sub negative and pumping water in and out seemed the way to go. Later, I started diving slightly positive and used a vertical thruster to control altitude over the bottom. After trying both methods, I think that a few ounces positive makes diving subs?a lot more fun (and safer with better vis too). The pump is only?needed?as a backup if you get the buoyancy right at the surface. When its time to come back up, just turn off the vertical thruster and the sub gently heads back up! This is a good way to keep saltwater out of the pump!? Anyway, good luck with the build. Greg C From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Thanks Greg & Hank,size is a determining factor for me as I am building a one person subsmaller than Cliff's R300.That 500 psi battery powered unit looks good Greg. I wonder if I couldput salt water through it though!I saw this marine pump that looks a good alternative if I can't find anythingin the high pressure range. But it doesn't say you can run salt water through it.http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Seaflo-100-PSI-Water-Pump-RV-Boat-High-Pressure-Marine-Boat-4-Year-Warranty-/191830266640It is small, not much bigger than a 1 litre milk bottle (in picture)There is this 1600psi AC water blaster with a "corrosion free for life" pump.https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/karcher-k2-basic-electric-waterblaster-1400-watt/p/269411Perhaps I could replace the motor with one of my 2000W brushless DC motors?Attached photo is of a water blaster motor & pump I have, one of my DC brushless motors with key way & a 1 litre (quart) bottle of milk for size comparison. Although?the water blaster is an AC unit, it has a universal motor & I have run it on 32V DC, but is very weak.?Another thought was to pull apart the water blaster pump & hard anodise the?aluminium pump body! Here we go again!?Alan Sent from my iPad On 26/04/2017, at 12:46 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's one that is 500 psi at 1 GPM- yardforceusa Greg C | | | yardforceusa | | | From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Hi Alan, There are now some battery powered?pressure washers that should work fine. Here's a link to one of them- New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze | | | | | | | | | | | New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze Before you had to choose between an electric plug in or a gas engine pressure washer. Now you have a third optio... | | | | Greg C From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Hi, I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, but haven't had much luck. I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 134266 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 21:57:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 13:57:12 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump In-Reply-To: <1913474899.9806933.1493165024626@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> <6051B67B-BF46-42A0-A90F-E2364BABAA95@yahoo.com> <1913474899.9806933.1493165024626@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <719BE0D2-E20A-445C-9CEF-36AE7AE4E2D4@yahoo.com> Thanks Greg, I just bought the 36V Karcher pressure washer, 750 psi. I will post some pictures when I have pulled it to bits. The 36V battery is 2 Ah & may have use as an emergency back up battery for the subs life support system. I want to use the pump as a simple way of adjusting buoyancy for a wide range of pilot weights & as you suggest, utilising any space with contoured containers will be the way to go. I'm open to using flexible bags. I am not sure what the system on the Deep Worker is now, but it did have a soft tank system that was in the plastic seat. They would pump water out & in at the surface. The water filled seat proved to be a chilling experience & they moved away from it. I went with the high pressure pump mainly because there is a safety factor there if it happened to see external pressure. I haven't thought through this well, but it could be used like a hydraulic pump to activate external functions such as a buoy release mechanism or drop weight mechanism. Thanks for putting us on the right track. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 26/04/2017, at 12:03 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > I think that you could run saltwater through any of these pumps as long as you flush them with fresh water after the dive. > > The great thing about pumping water out of a soft tank for small subs is that you can fabricate a tank out of plastics or fiberglass that will fit into an otherwise unusable space. Hard tanks take up a lot of room! > Although its been years since my sub was underwater, it has a pair of crescent shaped plastic tanks which conform to the hull and double as seating. Everything should have at least TWO purposes! At first, I had a bronze rotary pump with a dc motor that pumped them out but after a while I just dumped the water overboard after the dive (the tanks were slender enough to get through the hatch). > But much of your set up will depend on how you dive. Initially, I dove the sub negative and pumping water in and out seemed the way to go. Later, I started diving slightly positive and used a vertical thruster to control altitude over the bottom. After trying both methods, I think that a few ounces positive makes diving subs a lot more fun (and safer with better vis too). The pump is only needed as a backup if you get the buoyancy right at the surface. When its time to come back up, just turn off the vertical thruster and the sub gently heads back up! This is a good way to keep saltwater out of the pump! Anyway, good luck with the build. > > Greg C > > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 3:44 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump > > Thanks Greg & Hank, > size is a determining factor for me as I am building a one person sub > smaller than Cliff's R300. > That 500 psi battery powered unit looks good Greg. I wonder if I could > put salt water through it though! > I saw this marine pump that looks a good alternative if I can't find anything > in the high pressure range. But it doesn't say you can run salt water through it. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Seaflo-100-PSI-Water-Pump-RV-Boat-High-Pressure-Marine-Boat-4-Year-Warranty-/191830266640 > It is small, not much bigger than a 1 litre milk bottle (in picture) > There is this 1600psi AC water blaster with a "corrosion free for life" pump. > https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/karcher-k2-basic-electric-waterblaster-1400-watt/p/269411 > Perhaps I could replace the motor with one of my 2000W brushless DC motors? > Attached photo is of a water blaster motor & pump I have, one of my DC brushless motors with key way & a 1 litre (quart) bottle of milk for size comparison. Although > the water blaster is an AC unit, it has a universal motor & I have run it on 32V DC, but is very weak. > Another thought was to pull apart the water blaster pump & hard anodise the > aluminium pump body! Here we go again! > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 26/04/2017, at 12:46 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Here's one that is 500 psi at 1 GPM- >> >> yardforceusa >> >> Greg C >> >> yardforceusa >> >> >> >> From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:37 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> There are now some battery powered pressure washers that should work fine. Here's a link to one of them- >> >> New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze >> >> New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze >> Before you had to choose between an electric plug in or a gas engine pressure washer. Now you have a third optio... >> >> >> Greg C >> >> >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:14 AM >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump >> >> Hi, >> I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi >> with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, >> but haven't had much luck. >> I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. >> The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I >> could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. >> Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 22:03:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 16:03:20 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <314823425.4631339.1493164134210@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> <77BABB80-AA68-4504-B28D-15B50D98D727@yahoo.com> <314823425.4631339.1493164134210@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is there anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior tank, 02 or air? Rick On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a HP > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > I first got it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your > DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Some great thoughts thanks. > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( > granule size) > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of > coffee grind > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber > this would > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > the water to flow through the grind > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous > factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by > the fan & the flow > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this > is dictated > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & > during > the day. > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > balance if > you want it perfect! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles rg > wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor > performance depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles rg > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg > > *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work > the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The > first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow > throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies > for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a > distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter > known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure > divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute > pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio > less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than > 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 > and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber > was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these > are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to > push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and > the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating > anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked > better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates > than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models > of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from > Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power > rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, > these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to > meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will > operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the > backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel > Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great > on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not > work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure > drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This > showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to > sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the > unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way > much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, > model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with > enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically > below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower > did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below > is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage > across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in > my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the > backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 > amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load > was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I need > to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if I can > reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real emergency > like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could utilize at > least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup battery > consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity by the > hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my > 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles rg > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this > purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop > very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now > has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same > results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used > to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 22:25:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> <77BABB80-AA68-4504-B28D-15B50D98D727@yahoo.com> <314823425.4631339.1493164134210@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull and on the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, except two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several times already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite particular about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure gauges but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did my own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were purchased O2 clean. Thanks, Alec On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is > there anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP > exterior tank, 02 or air? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Rick, >> I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a >> HP line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve >> with medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is >> no internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 >> pressure before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for >> auxiliary O2 when I first got it. >> Hank >> >> >> On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs >> for an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a >> response so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to >> see. >> Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of >> there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from >> entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. >> >> Thanks >> >> Rick >> >> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Cliff, >> forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. >> We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that >> knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. >> Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. >> Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll >> be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to >> calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your >> DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 >> scrubber wrong you die! >> >> Cliff >> >> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Some great thoughts thanks. >> This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! >> You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( >> granule size) >> Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of >> coffee grind >> in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber >> this would >> have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed >> water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the >> absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for >> the water to flow through the grind >> to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous >> factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by >> the fan & the flow >> rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this >> is dictated >> by the size of the hull & number of passengers. >> Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & >> during >> the day. >> Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to >> balance if >> you want it perfect! >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > rg > wrote: >> >> Hi Cliff, >> Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of >> things they would be- >> >> Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. >> Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher >> pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing >> air through which lowers pressure. >> However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose >> effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. >> Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor >> performance depending on scrubber design. >> >> So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient >> with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration >> of dive (especially in an emergency). >> >> For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs >> provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear >> acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. >> One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather >> cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an >> emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old >> cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. >> >> Greg C >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > rg > >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > rg > >> *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay >> >> To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work >> the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The >> first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow >> throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies >> for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a >> distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter >> known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure >> divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute >> pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio >> less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than >> 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 >> and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber >> was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these >> are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to >> push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and >> the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating >> anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked >> better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates >> than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models >> of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from >> Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power >> rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, >> these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to >> meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will >> operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the >> backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel >> Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great >> on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not >> work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure >> drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This >> showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to >> sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). >> When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the >> unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way >> much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, >> model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with >> enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level >> typically below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This >> blower did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below >> is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage >> across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in >> my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the >> backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 >> amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load >> was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I >> need to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if >> I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real >> emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could >> utilize at least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup >> battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity >> by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 >> hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. >> . >> >> >> >> >> Cliff >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > rg > wrote: >> >> Hi Brian, >> >> If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a >> computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this >> purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop >> very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now >> has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same >> results. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Alec, >> Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used >> to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from >> the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. >> If it works, straight flow fan. >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 22:28:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:28:51 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump In-Reply-To: <719BE0D2-E20A-445C-9CEF-36AE7AE4E2D4@yahoo.com> References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> <6051B67B-BF46-42A0-A90F-E2364BABAA95@yahoo.com> <1913474899.9806933.1493165024626@mail.yahoo.com> <719BE0D2-E20A-445C-9CEF-36AE7AE4E2D4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: A question for which I expect Hank probably has the practical solution... The new Greg Principle (excellent!) that all things should serve at least two purposes inspired the question. Could we not use such a little HP water pump to drive a manipulator too? :) Alec On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:57 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Greg, > I just bought the 36V Karcher pressure washer, 750 psi. I will post some > pictures when I have pulled it to bits. The 36V battery is 2 Ah & may > have use as an emergency back up battery for the subs life support system. > I want to use the pump as a simple way of adjusting buoyancy for a > wide range of pilot weights & as you suggest, utilising any space with > contoured containers will be the way to go. I'm open to using flexible > bags. > I am not sure what the system on the Deep Worker is now, but it did have a > soft tank system that was in the plastic seat. They would pump water out & > in at the > surface. The water filled seat proved to be a chilling experience & they > moved > away from it. I went with the high pressure pump mainly because there is a > safety factor there if it happened to see external pressure. I haven't > thought > through this well, but it could be used like a hydraulic pump to activate > external > functions such as a buoy release mechanism or drop weight mechanism. > Thanks for putting us on the right track. > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 26/04/2017, at 12:03 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > > I think that you could run saltwater through any of these pumps as long > as you flush them with fresh water after the dive. > > The great thing about pumping water out of a soft tank for small subs is > that you can fabricate a tank out of plastics or fiberglass that will fit > into an otherwise unusable space. Hard tanks take up a lot of room! > Although its been years since my sub was underwater, it has a pair of > crescent shaped plastic tanks which conform to the hull and double as > seating. Everything should have at least TWO purposes! At first, I had a > bronze rotary pump with a dc motor that pumped them out but after a while I > just dumped the water overboard after the dive (the tanks were slender > enough to get through the hatch). > But much of your set up will depend on how you dive. Initially, I dove the > sub negative and pumping water in and out seemed the way to go. Later, I > started diving slightly positive and used a vertical thruster to control > altitude over the bottom. After trying both methods, I think that a few > ounces positive makes diving subs a lot more fun (and safer with better vis > too). The pump is only needed as a backup if you get the buoyancy right at > the surface. When its time to come back up, just turn off the vertical > thruster and the sub gently heads back up! This is a good way to keep > saltwater out of the pump! Anyway, good luck with the build. > > Greg C > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 25, 2017 3:44 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump > > Thanks Greg & Hank, > size is a determining factor for me as I am building a one person sub > smaller than Cliff's R300. > That 500 psi battery powered unit looks good Greg. I wonder if I could > put salt water through it though! > I saw this marine pump that looks a good alternative if I can't find > anything > in the high pressure range. But it doesn't say you can run salt water > through it. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Seaflo-100-PSI-Water-Pump-RV- > Boat-High-Pressure-Marine-Boat-4-Year-Warranty-/191830266640 > It is small, not much bigger than a 1 litre milk bottle (in picture) > There is this 1600psi AC water blaster with a "corrosion free for life" > pump. > https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/karcher-k2-basic- > electric-waterblaster-1400-watt/p/269411 > Perhaps I could replace the motor with one of my 2000W brushless DC motors? > Attached photo is of a water blaster motor & pump I have, one of my DC > brushless motors with key way & a 1 litre (quart) bottle of milk for size > comparison. Although > the water blaster is an AC unit, it has a universal motor & I have run it > on 32V DC, but is very weak. > Another thought was to pull apart the water blaster pump & hard anodise > the > aluminium pump body! Here we go again! > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 26/04/2017, at 12:46 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Here's one that is 500 psi at 1 GPM- > > yardforceusa > > Greg C > > yardforceusa > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:37 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump > > Hi Alan, > > There are now some battery powered pressure washers that should work fine. > Here's a link to one of them- > > New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze > > > New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze > Before you had to choose between an electric plug in or a gas engine > pressure washer. Now you have a third optio... > > > > Greg C > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:14 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump > > Hi, > I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi > with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, > but haven't had much luck. > I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. > The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I > could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. > Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 22:37:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 02:37:52 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Message-ID: I relocated the twin air tanks outside of Harold with a 50 cf backup inside. O2 is now inside (20 cf tank) with pediatric regulator directly attached. I was uncomfortable running O2 any distance through hoses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 25 23:40:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 23:40:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Message-ID: I feel like you would never be able to rinse all of the salt out of a manipulator actuator cylinder without disassembling it after every dive. Although the idea of using pumped sea water in such a way is intriguing. -- -River J. Dolfi rdolfi7 at gmail.com rwd5301 at psu.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 02:51:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 20:51:42 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alec and Brian, Thanks for the response. What type of first stage are you using on the outside tanks and are the balanced or unbalanced? Rick On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I relocated the twin air tanks outside of Harold with a 50 cf backup > inside. O2 is now inside (20 cf tank) with pediatric regulator directly > attached. I was uncomfortable running O2 any distance through hoses. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 03:32:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 19:32:02 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rick, I don't think it will matter if it's either, because if the 1st stage is producing round about 135psi above ambient, at your max dive depth of 350ft you will have 135 + 175 = 310psi coming out of the Ist stage & entering your hull. So a wild variation of pressure which will make any subtleties in regulator type obsolete. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 26/04/2017, at 6:51 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec and Brian, > > Thanks for the response. What type of first stage are you using on the outside tanks and are the balanced or unbalanced? > > Rick > >> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I relocated the twin air tanks outside of Harold with a 50 cf backup inside. O2 is now inside (20 cf tank) with pediatric regulator directly attached. I was uncomfortable running O2 any distance through hoses. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 05:14:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:14:53 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> <77BABB80-AA68-4504-B28D-15B50D98D727@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, I have 02 system as you describe. I'll find a picture. Ive got a 02 clean scuba 1st stage (not sure if its balanced or not, or even if it matters in this situation as im not breathing off it) with relief valve set to 14 bar. Through hull, stop valve, internal flow regulator. Very simple system. Just the hose is not shown in the picture. I also later changed the flowmeter to one that had smaller increments as that one the minimum was 1/2lpm which was way too much. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page26979.htm regards James On 26 April 2017 at 00:38, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Cliff, >> forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. >> We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that >> knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. >> Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. >> Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll >> be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to >> calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your >> DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 >> scrubber wrong you die! >> >> Cliff >> >> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Some great thoughts thanks. >>> This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! >>> You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( >>> granule size) >>> Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of >>> coffee grind >>> in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber >>> this would >>> have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed >>> water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the >>> absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for >>> the water to flow through the grind >>> to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous >>> factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by >>> the fan & the flow >>> rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this >>> is dictated >>> by the size of the hull & number of passengers. >>> Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & >>> during >>> the day. >>> Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to >>> balance if >>> you want it perfect! >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Cliff, >>> Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple >>> of things they would be- >>> >>> Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. >>> Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher >>> pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing >>> air through which lowers pressure. >>> However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose >>> effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. >>> Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor >>> performance depending on scrubber design. >>> >>> So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow >>> sufficient with even distribution all without exceeding available power >>> over duration of dive (especially in an emergency). >>> >>> For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The >>> lungs provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear >>> acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. >>> One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather >>> cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an >>> emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old >>> cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. >>> >>> Greg C >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay >>> >>> To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work >>> the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The >>> first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow >>> throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies >>> for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a >>> distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter >>> known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure >>> divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute >>> pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio >>> less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than >>> 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 >>> and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber >>> was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these >>> are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to >>> push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and >>> the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not >>> operating anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I >>> found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for >>> lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure >>> there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the >>> model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off >>> 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If >>> you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to the >>> goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your >>> life support system will operate through the the emergency time period >>> which is 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this >>> period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested >>> axial PC fans, they were great on battery endurance because they pull a >>> very low current but they did not work well because they did not have >>> enough head to overcome the pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent >>> material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This showed up as having erratic >>> CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less >>> than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). When I tried larger >>> axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep the CO2 >>> level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and would >>> not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model RL90-18/24 >>> squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough head to >>> circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 >>> ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let >>> me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph >>> of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage across the >>> backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. >>> You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup >>> battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps >>> but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load was >>> a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I need >>> to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if I can >>> reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real emergency >>> like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could utilize at >>> least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup battery >>> consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity by the >>> hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my >>> 69 hours did better than expected. >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>> If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a >>> computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this >>> purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop >>> very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now >>> has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same >>> results. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Alec, >>> Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, >>> used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber >>> from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the >>> middle. If it works, straight flow fan. >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 06:10:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:10:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump In-Reply-To: References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> <6051B67B-BF46-42A0-A90F-E2364BABAA95@yahoo.com> <1913474899.9806933.1493165024626@mail.yahoo.com> <719BE0D2-E20A-445C-9CEF-36AE7AE4E2D4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1675067783.4939282.1493201432136@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,You sure can use water pressure for a manipulator. ?It would be tricky in a cold?environment because of freezing in storage. ?For a 1,000 foot sub you need 1,100 psi so thats no problem. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:29 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: A question for which I expect Hank probably has the practical solution... The new Greg Principle (excellent!) that all things should serve at least two purposes inspired the question. Could we not use such a little HP water pump to drive a manipulator too?? :) Alec On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:57 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Greg,I just bought the 36V Karcher pressure washer, 750 psi. I will post somepictures when I have pulled it to bits. The 36V battery is 2 Ah & mayhave use as an emergency back up battery for the subs life support system.I want to use the pump as a simple way of adjusting buoyancy for a?wide range of pilot weights & as you suggest, utilising any space withcontoured containers will be the way to go. I'm open to using flexible bags.I am not sure what the system on the Deep Worker is now, but it did have a?soft tank system that was in the plastic seat. They would pump water out & in at thesurface. The water filled seat proved to be a chilling experience & they movedaway from it. I went with the high pressure pump mainly because there is a?safety factor there if it happened to see external pressure. I haven't thought?through this well, but it could be used like a hydraulic pump to activate externalfunctions such as a buoy release mechanism or drop weight mechanism.Thanks for putting us on the right track.Alan Sent from my iPad On 26/04/2017, at 12:03 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I think that you could run saltwater through any of these pumps?as long as?you flush them with fresh water after the dive. The great thing about pumping water out of a soft tank for small subs is that you can fabricate a tank out of plastics or fiberglass that will?fit into an otherwise unusable space. Hard tanks take up a lot of room!Although its been years since my sub was underwater, it has a pair of crescent shaped plastic tanks which conform to the hull and double as seating. Everything should have at least TWO purposes! At first, I had a bronze?rotary pump with a dc motor that pumped them out but after a while I just dumped the water?overboard after the dive (the tanks?were slender enough to get through the hatch).But much of your set up will depend on how you dive. Initially, I dove the sub negative and pumping water in and out seemed the way to go. Later, I started diving slightly positive and used a vertical thruster to control altitude over the bottom. After trying both methods, I think that a few ounces positive makes diving subs?a lot more fun (and safer with better vis too). The pump is only?needed?as a backup if you get the buoyancy right at the surface. When its time to come back up, just turn off the vertical thruster and the sub gently heads back up! This is a good way to keep saltwater out of the pump!? Anyway, good luck with the build. Greg C From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Thanks Greg & Hank,size is a determining factor for me as I am building a one person subsmaller than Cliff's R300.That 500 psi battery powered unit looks good Greg. I wonder if I couldput salt water through it though!I saw this marine pump that looks a good alternative if I can't find anythingin the high pressure range. But it doesn't say you can run salt water through it.http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V- Seaflo-100-PSI-Water-Pump-RV- Boat-High-Pressure-Marine- Boat-4-Year-Warranty-/ 191830266640It is small, not much bigger than a 1 litre milk bottle (in picture)There is this 1600psi AC water blaster with a "corrosion free for life" pump.https://www.mitre10.co.nz/ shop/karcher-k2-basic- electric-waterblaster-1400- watt/p/269411Perhaps I could replace the motor with one of my 2000W brushless DC motors?Attached photo is of a water blaster motor & pump I have, one of my DC brushless motors with key way & a 1 litre (quart) bottle of milk for size comparison. Although?the water blaster is an AC unit, it has a universal motor & I have run it on 32V DC, but is very weak.?Another thought was to pull apart the water blaster pump & hard anodise the?aluminium pump body! Here we go again!?Alan Sent from my iPad On 26/04/2017, at 12:46 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's one that is 500 psi at 1 GPM- yardforceusa Greg C | | | yardforceusa | | | From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Hi Alan, There are now some battery powered?pressure washers that should work fine. Here's a link to one of them- New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze | | | | | | | | | | | New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze Before you had to choose between an electric plug in or a gas engine pressure washer. Now you have a third optio... | | | | Greg C From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Hi, I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, but haven't had much luck. I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 06:17:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 22:17:15 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] asherRe: High Pressure Pump In-Reply-To: <719BE0D2-E20A-445C-9CEF-36AE7AE4E2D4@yahoo.com> References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> <6051B67B-BF46-42A0-A90F-E2364BABAA95@yahoo.com> <1913474899.9806933.1493165024626@mail.yahoo.com> <719BE0D2-E20A-445C-9CEF-36AE7AE4E2D4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7DE9F72B-5A3B-4A87-B96B-E6D3F948FD61@yahoo.com> Hi Psubbers, Attached is the Karcher 36V battery operated 750psi pressure washer disassembled. I ran it before pulling it apart. It moves about 10 litres of water in 2 minutes so a bit on the slow side. It will be OK for trimming & pumping out any excess water but if I wanted to use it to adjust the buoyancy by 30kg for a lighter pilot, it will take me 6 minutes. It's noisy, a bit less than your normal electric pressure washer & probably bearable without ear muffs in the sub. It could be insulated. It has a full power -economy & off switch. I don't know whats going on electrically so will take it to the Karcher service centre & see what I can find out. I have a suitable speed controller & it may be as simple as getting rid of all the wiring accept the red & black coming out of the motor & attaching to my motor controller. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 26/04/2017, at 1:57 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Greg, > I just bought the 36V Karcher pressure washer, 750 psi. I will post some > pictures when I have pulled it to bits. The 36V battery is 2 Ah & may > have use as an emergency back up battery for the subs life support system. > I want to use the pump as a simple way of adjusting buoyancy for a > wide range of pilot weights & as you suggest, utilising any space with > contoured containers will be the way to go. I'm open to using flexible bags. > I am not sure what the system on the Deep Worker is now, but it did have a > soft tank system that was in the plastic seat. They would pump water out & in at the > surface. The water filled seat proved to be a chilling experience & they moved > away from it. I went with the high pressure pump mainly because there is a > safety factor there if it happened to see external pressure. I haven't thought > through this well, but it could be used like a hydraulic pump to activate external > functions such as a buoy release mechanism or drop weight mechanism. > Thanks for putting us on the right track. > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 26/04/2017, at 12:03 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> >> I think that you could run saltwater through any of these pumps as long as you flush them with fresh water after the dive. >> >> The great thing about pumping water out of a soft tank for small subs is that you can fabricate a tank out of plastics or fiberglass that will fit into an otherwise unusable space. Hard tanks take up a lot of room! >> Although its been years since my sub was underwater, it has a pair of crescent shaped plastic tanks which conform to the hull and double as seating. Everything should have at least TWO purposes! At first, I had a bronze rotary pump with a dc motor that pumped them out but after a while I just dumped the water overboard after the dive (the tanks were slender enough to get through the hatch). >> But much of your set up will depend on how you dive. Initially, I dove the sub negative and pumping water in and out seemed the way to go. Later, I started diving slightly positive and used a vertical thruster to control altitude over the bottom. After trying both methods, I think that a few ounces positive makes diving subs a lot more fun (and safer with better vis too). The pump is only needed as a backup if you get the buoyancy right at the surface. When its time to come back up, just turn off the vertical thruster and the sub gently heads back up! This is a good way to keep saltwater out of the pump! Anyway, good luck with the build. >> >> Greg C >> >> >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 3:44 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump >> >> Thanks Greg & Hank, >> size is a determining factor for me as I am building a one person sub >> smaller than Cliff's R300. >> That 500 psi battery powered unit looks good Greg. I wonder if I could >> put salt water through it though! >> I saw this marine pump that looks a good alternative if I can't find anything >> in the high pressure range. But it doesn't say you can run salt water through it. >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Seaflo-100-PSI-Water-Pump-RV-Boat-High-Pressure-Marine-Boat-4-Year-Warranty-/191830266640 >> It is small, not much bigger than a 1 litre milk bottle (in picture) >> There is this 1600psi AC water blaster with a "corrosion free for life" pump. >> https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/karcher-k2-basic-electric-waterblaster-1400-watt/p/269411 >> Perhaps I could replace the motor with one of my 2000W brushless DC motors? >> Attached photo is of a water blaster motor & pump I have, one of my DC brushless motors with key way & a 1 litre (quart) bottle of milk for size comparison. Although >> the water blaster is an AC unit, it has a universal motor & I have run it on 32V DC, but is very weak. >> Another thought was to pull apart the water blaster pump & hard anodise the >> aluminium pump body! Here we go again! >> Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 26/04/2017, at 12:46 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Here's one that is 500 psi at 1 GPM- >>> >>> yardforceusa >>> >>> Greg C >>> >>> yardforceusa >>> >>> >>> >>> From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:37 AM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> >>> There are now some battery powered pressure washers that should work fine. Here's a link to one of them- >>> >>> New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze >>> >>> New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze >>> Before you had to choose between an electric plug in or a gas engine pressure washer. Now you have a third optio... >>> >>> >>> Greg C >>> >>> >>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:14 AM >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump >>> >>> Hi, >>> I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi >>> with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, >>> but haven't had much luck. >>> I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. >>> The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I >>> could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. >>> Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 132063 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 06:13:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:13:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> <77BABB80-AA68-4504-B28D-15B50D98D727@yahoo.com> <314823425.4631339.1493164134210@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1492539270.4798925.1493201608276@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,There is no HP interior plumbing in my set up. ?The?paediatric regulator is connecter directly to the hull penetrator. ?I guess you could argue that the tower valve is plumbing. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is there anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior tank, 02 or air?? Rick On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has ?external O2 with a HP line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with medical O2 regulator ?mounted directly ?to that penetrator.? There is no internal HP O2 line.? I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure before the hull.? Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when I first got it.Hank On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see.?Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. Thanks Rick On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z..?We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that?knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit.Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time.Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'llbe contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer tocalculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes I like it,? Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 scrubber wrong you die! Cliff On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some great thoughts thanks.This all seems very much like the art of coffee making!You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule size)Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction.? There is the amount of coffee grindin the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this would?have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for the water to flow through the grind?to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan & the flowrate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is dictated?by the size of the hull & number of passengers.Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & duringthe day.?Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to balance ifyou want it perfect!Alan? ? Sent from my iPad On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Cliff,Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of things they would be- Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too.?Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing air through which lowers pressure.However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits.Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance depending on scrubber design. So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration of dive (especially in an emergency). For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media.One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. Greg C From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments,?a few years back I did some work the scrubber for my one-manboat and came away with some conclusions.?The first was that a radial design was better than an axial design forair flow throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule appliesfor fan/blower associated with the scrubber.?Engineers make a distinction on equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the specificratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the supply pressurewhere each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather than gagepressure.? If the device has a specificratio less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and1.2, it is a blower.? What I found from mytesting on the scrubber was that fans like you would typically see on PC areaxial flow and these are designed for high flow rates but low head. When youtry and use them to push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't haveenough head and the resulting flowrate is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywherenear their best efficiency point (BEP).?What I found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These aredesigned for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrelblade blowers that would work but the model I use is from Papst, modelRL90-18/24.? This blower operates off24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come upall the time.? Back to the goldilocksrule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstratethat your life support system will operate through the the emergency timeperiod which is 72 hours on the backup battery.?The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obviousreasons.? When I tested axial PC fans,they were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current butthey did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome thepressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case.?? This showed up as having erratic CO2 levelsin the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less than ABS requiredmaximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%).? When I triedlarger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep theCO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and ?would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model RL90-18/24 squirrel cageblower turned out to be ?perfect withenough head to circulated? the cabinair? to keep the CO2 level typicallybelow 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet the 72 ABSendurance limit but got me close.? Belowis a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltageacross the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in myboat.? You can see from the graph atabout 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted.? Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 ampsbut slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the1.5 amps that I had designed around.? Ineed to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if Ican reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hoursbecause during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement,I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For reference, the backup battery consist oftwo AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you divide the capacity by the hotel loadyou get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did betterthan expected.? . Cliff? On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian, If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If it works, straight flow fan. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 07:14:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 11:14:30 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay Message-ID: Mark, Here's how I plan to try it: 1) Ordered an XS Scuba tank holder from Amazon - the bungee one for holding scuba tanks on a boat 2) Ordered the fan Alec recommended as it's the same one I use on my current setup and worked well for him. 3) Printed out the fan emergency hose adapter. Send me an email and I can send back the stl files I got from Alec. Brian at stjohnmd.org 4) Bought an MSA M COMFO respirator hose setup on eBay. They are cheap. It can attach to the adapter mentioned above and turn the canister into a huge lung powered scrubber without having to hold the hose bit it in your mouth with a scuba regulator mouthpiece. It will scrub inhalation and vent exhalation back into the sub, but a zero net gain. 5) Months ago I scored a box of medical clamps used for attaching things to those roll around poles in the hospital. They're perfect for temporarily or permamently attaching things to Harold's reinforcing rings. I can switch between which size canister setup I want to use. OK, here's what will get tried and I'll post pics when done. In no particular order. Tank holder gets connected to medical clamp with a spacer if needed to hold out scrubber from the radius of the interior. Canister will be attached to side of the rear most starboard reinforcing ring, vertically in the middle. Drill and tap top of canister for attaching fan, make an o-ring for a proper seal. Fan hose adapter glued to the fan. Weld a small piece of angle iron to the reinforcing ring to hold the bottom edge of the canister. Clamp on with fan pointed forward. Wired with 20 amp anderson plug that, with a Y adapter, is already there and used for the ice chest based AC system (google redneck AC for images). Not an engineer and likely Alec shakes his head every time he sees one of my sub hacks, but it keeps me home at night. :-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 08:00:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 08:00:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <098AFB85-2230-4B69-94E1-3413C197B6D7@gmail.com> Hi Rick, As always my guiding principle is to use the simplest components I can. In this case it's a little 1st stage made by Piranha Dive Manufacturing. I'd never heard of this little company but their 1st stage was so reasonably priced I ordered one just to see what it was like. Well, I liked it so much I ordered two more. This is advertised only as Nitrox ready for up to 40% O2. However, I spoke to the owner and he said the O rings, lube, and cleaning process are all for 100%, but they just advertise it for 40% as a legal CYA. It's a balanced piston design. http://www.piranhadivemfg.com/item/Balance-Piston-Din-First-Stage--For-Pony--Stage-Bottles--Nitrox-Ready-11738 Best, Alec > On Apr 26, 2017, at 2:51 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec and Brian, > > Thanks for the response. What type of first stage are you using on the outside tanks and are the balanced or unbalanced? > > Rick > >> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I relocated the twin air tanks outside of Harold with a 50 cf backup inside. O2 is now inside (20 cf tank) with pediatric regulator directly attached. I was uncomfortable running O2 any distance through hoses. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 08:27:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 12:27:55 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Message-ID: No external regulators. Internal air regulator is standard two gauge regulator like you'd see on a welding gas bottle, that way I can run more than the standard 130psi or so regulator pressure out to the ballast tanks. High pressure hose attachment to thru hull, though I supposed you could attach right at the thru hull and run your low pressure lines for there. Hmm ... a potential idea, except the pressure gauge would be all the way in the stern on my setup. Where the air comes into Harold there's a value to close it off and right after is a 5000 psi one way valve on a T for the internal 50 backup tank. Externally are standard DIN fittings with high pressure stainless covered hoses, essentially fill hose for dive shops. I got them from Northeast Scuba Supply. They'll make any length you want. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 08:35:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 08:35:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rick, While we're on the subject, here's a few more details that might be worth mentioning. The through-hull for O2 shouldn't be just a nipple welded into the hull, because you'll need to remove it for cleaning. Kittredge had a nice design. Mine consists of a bored SS insert welded into the hull. A removable through-hull made from a large SS bolt fits into that insert and is secured from inside with a nut. The bolt head is on the outside acting as a shoulder and seals against the welded insert with an O ring. I bored the bolt and put NPT threads on each end, so the O2 has no contact with the O ring, which can be "dirty." The hull stop needs to be a slow-acting valve such as a needle valve. No ball valves for O2, they are too violent. Mine are basically like the valves on a SCUBA tank, and came O2 clean from the manufacturer. Clean all lines and connections per Oxygen Hackers Handbook instructions. The medical regulator should be pediatric, as that gives you smaller graduations. Avoid a flow regulator that has the CGA 870 connector like the plague. These are the ones with two little studs, and they use a rubberized disc instead of an O ring. They are evil, I think they designed those seals to maximize leaks. Instead get a flow regulator with a CGA 540 connection. NPT to CGA 540 adapters are readily available, probably at your local welding store. Best, Alec > On Apr 26, 2017, at 7:14 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Mark, > > Here's how I plan to try it: > > 1) Ordered an XS Scuba tank holder from Amazon - the bungee one for holding scuba tanks on a boat > 2) Ordered the fan Alec recommended as it's the same one I use on my current setup and worked well for him. > 3) Printed out the fan emergency hose adapter. Send me an email and I can send back the stl files I got from Alec. Brian at stjohnmd.org > 4) Bought an MSA M COMFO respirator hose setup on eBay. They are cheap. It can attach to the adapter mentioned above and turn the canister into a huge lung powered scrubber without having to hold the hose bit it in your mouth with a scuba regulator mouthpiece. It will scrub inhalation and vent exhalation back into the sub, but a zero net gain. > 5) Months ago I scored a box of medical clamps used for attaching things to those roll around poles in the hospital. They're perfect for temporarily or permamently attaching things to Harold's reinforcing rings. I can switch between which size canister setup I want to use. > OK, here's what will get tried and I'll post pics when done. In no particular order. > > Tank holder gets connected to medical clamp with a spacer if needed to hold out scrubber from the radius of the interior. Canister will be attached to side of the rear most starboard reinforcing ring, vertically in the middle. Drill and tap top of canister for attaching fan, make an o-ring for a proper seal. Fan hose adapter glued to the fan. Weld a small piece of angle iron to the reinforcing ring to hold the bottom edge of the canister. Clamp on with fan pointed forward. Wired with 20 amp anderson plug that, with a Y adapter, is already there and used for the ice chest based AC system (google redneck AC for images). > > Not an engineer and likely Alec shakes his head every time he sees one of my sub hacks, but it keeps me home at night. :-) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 09:30:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 13:30:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] water powered manipulator In-Reply-To: References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> <6051B67B-BF46-42A0-A90F-E2364BABAA95@yahoo.com> <1913474899.9806933.1493165024626@mail.yahoo.com> <719BE0D2-E20A-445C-9CEF-36AE7AE4E2D4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1457674811.10296753.1493213421318@mail.yahoo.com> Water powered arms have been done before with some success. Not just by psubbers but some of the big guys. The problem is contamination- sediment and living organisms in the water tend to foul stuff up. But the good thing about home built subs is that they don't have to dive everyday like a work sub. Two things will help-First- install a good whole house filter outside of the hull to filter the water. You can get filters from Home Depot that filter down to a few microns for a couple buck$.Next- Change the filter and flush the whole system with fresh water after every dive. A garden hose fitting on the water filter should do the trick. One more thing- the cylinders used can be made of plastic and don't have to be especially tight. They don't even need o-rings. Leaky cylinders will work just fine with a water powered arm. Greg C From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump A question for which I expect Hank probably has the practical solution... The new Greg Principle (excellent!) that all things should serve at least two purposes inspired the question. Could we not use such a little HP water pump to drive a manipulator too?? :) Alec On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:57 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Greg,I just bought the 36V Karcher pressure washer, 750 psi. I will post somepictures when I have pulled it to bits. The 36V battery is 2 Ah & mayhave use as an emergency back up battery for the subs life support system.I want to use the pump as a simple way of adjusting buoyancy for a?wide range of pilot weights & as you suggest, utilising any space withcontoured containers will be the way to go. I'm open to using flexible bags.I am not sure what the system on the Deep Worker is now, but it did have a?soft tank system that was in the plastic seat. They would pump water out & in at thesurface. The water filled seat proved to be a chilling experience & they movedaway from it. I went with the high pressure pump mainly because there is a?safety factor there if it happened to see external pressure. I haven't thought?through this well, but it could be used like a hydraulic pump to activate externalfunctions such as a buoy release mechanism or drop weight mechanism.Thanks for putting us on the right track.Alan Sent from my iPad On 26/04/2017, at 12:03 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I think that you could run saltwater through any of these pumps?as long as?you flush them with fresh water after the dive. The great thing about pumping water out of a soft tank for small subs is that you can fabricate a tank out of plastics or fiberglass that will?fit into an otherwise unusable space. Hard tanks take up a lot of room!Although its been years since my sub was underwater, it has a pair of crescent shaped plastic tanks which conform to the hull and double as seating. Everything should have at least TWO purposes! At first, I had a bronze?rotary pump with a dc motor that pumped them out but after a while I just dumped the water?overboard after the dive (the tanks?were slender enough to get through the hatch).But much of your set up will depend on how you dive. Initially, I dove the sub negative and pumping water in and out seemed the way to go. Later, I started diving slightly positive and used a vertical thruster to control altitude over the bottom. After trying both methods, I think that a few ounces positive makes diving subs?a lot more fun (and safer with better vis too). The pump is only?needed?as a backup if you get the buoyancy right at the surface. When its time to come back up, just turn off the vertical thruster and the sub gently heads back up! This is a good way to keep saltwater out of the pump!? Anyway, good luck with the build. Greg C From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Thanks Greg & Hank,size is a determining factor for me as I am building a one person subsmaller than Cliff's R300.That 500 psi battery powered unit looks good Greg. I wonder if I couldput salt water through it though!I saw this marine pump that looks a good alternative if I can't find anythingin the high pressure range. But it doesn't say you can run salt water through it.http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V- Seaflo-100-PSI-Water-Pump-RV- Boat-High-Pressure-Marine- Boat-4-Year-Warranty-/ 191830266640It is small, not much bigger than a 1 litre milk bottle (in picture)There is this 1600psi AC water blaster with a "corrosion free for life" pump.https://www.mitre10.co.nz/ shop/karcher-k2-basic- electric-waterblaster-1400- watt/p/269411Perhaps I could replace the motor with one of my 2000W brushless DC motors?Attached photo is of a water blaster motor & pump I have, one of my DC brushless motors with key way & a 1 litre (quart) bottle of milk for size comparison. Although?the water blaster is an AC unit, it has a universal motor & I have run it on 32V DC, but is very weak.?Another thought was to pull apart the water blaster pump & hard anodise the?aluminium pump body! Here we go again!?Alan Sent from my iPad On 26/04/2017, at 12:46 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's one that is 500 psi at 1 GPM- yardforceusa Greg C | | | yardforceusa | | | From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Hi Alan, There are now some battery powered?pressure washers that should work fine. Here's a link to one of them- New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze | | | | | | | | | | | New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze Before you had to choose between an electric plug in or a gas engine pressure washer. Now you have a third optio... | | | | Greg C From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump Hi, I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, but haven't had much luck. I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 10:22:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 07:22:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Message-ID: <20170426072246.841A11E4@m0087793.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 15:12:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:12:40 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> <77BABB80-AA68-4504-B28D-15B50D98D727@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the picture James, Are you carrying more than one tank for your 02? Rick On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:14 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Rick, > I have 02 system as you describe. I'll find a picture. Ive got a 02 > clean scuba 1st stage (not sure if its balanced or not, or even if it > matters in this situation as im not breathing off it) with relief valve set > to 14 bar. Through hull, stop valve, internal flow regulator. Very simple > system. Just the hose is not shown in the picture. I also later changed > the flowmeter to one that had smaller increments as that one the minimum > was 1/2lpm which was way too much. > > http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page26979.htm > > regards > James > > On 26 April 2017 at 00:38, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs >> for an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a >> response so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to >> see. >> Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of >> there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from >> entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. >> >> Thanks >> >> Rick >> >> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Cliff, >>> forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. >>> We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that >>> knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. >>> Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. >>> Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll >>> be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to >>> calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your >>> DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 >>> scrubber wrong you die! >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Some great thoughts thanks. >>>> This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! >>>> You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( >>>> granule size) >>>> Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of >>>> coffee grind >>>> in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber >>>> this would >>>> have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the >>>> speed water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the >>>> absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for >>>> the water to flow through the grind >>>> to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous >>>> factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by >>>> the fan & the flow >>>> rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & >>>> this is dictated >>>> by the size of the hull & number of passengers. >>>> Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & >>>> during >>>> the day. >>>> Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to >>>> balance if >>>> you want it perfect! >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Cliff, >>>> Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple >>>> of things they would be- >>>> >>>> Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. >>>> Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher >>>> pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing >>>> air through which lowers pressure. >>>> However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose >>>> effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. >>>> Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor >>>> performance depending on scrubber design. >>>> >>>> So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow >>>> sufficient with even distribution all without exceeding available power >>>> over duration of dive (especially in an emergency). >>>> >>>> For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The >>>> lungs provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear >>>> acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. >>>> One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather >>>> cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an >>>> emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old >>>> cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. >>>> >>>> Greg C >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay >>>> >>>> To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work >>>> the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The >>>> first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow >>>> throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies >>>> for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a >>>> distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a >>>> parameter known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge >>>> pressure divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of >>>> absolute pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a >>>> specific ratio less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio >>>> greater than 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration >>>> between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on >>>> the scrubber was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial >>>> flow and these are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try >>>> and use them to push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have >>>> enough head and the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they >>>> are not operating anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What >>>> I found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for >>>> lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure >>>> there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the >>>> model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off >>>> 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If >>>> you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to the >>>> goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your >>>> life support system will operate through the the emergency time period >>>> which is 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this >>>> period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I >>>> tested axial PC fans, they were great on battery endurance because they >>>> pull a very low current but they did not work well because they did not >>>> have enough head to overcome the pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent >>>> material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This showed up as having erratic >>>> CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less >>>> than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). When I tried larger >>>> axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep the CO2 >>>> level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and would >>>> not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model RL90-18/24 >>>> squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough head to >>>> circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 >>>> ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not >>>> let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a >>>> graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage >>>> across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in >>>> my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test >>>> the backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at >>>> about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This >>>> hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. >>>> I need to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and >>>> see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a >>>> real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could >>>> utilize at least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup >>>> battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the >>>> capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A >>>> is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cliff >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Brian, >>>> >>>> If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a >>>> computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this >>>> purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop >>>> very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now >>>> has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same >>>> results. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles >>>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Alec, >>>> Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, >>>> used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber >>>> from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the >>>> middle. If it works, straight flow fan. >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 15:16:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:16:55 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <1492539270.4798925.1493201608276@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> <77BABB80-AA68-4504-B28D-15B50D98D727@yahoo.com> <314823425.4631339.1493164134210@mail.yahoo.com> <1492539270.4798925.1493201608276@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I assume that you have a hull stop valve between the hull penetrator and regulator? Rick On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:13 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > There is no HP interior plumbing in my set up. The paediatric regulator > is connecter directly to the hull penetrator. I guess you could argue that > the tower valve is plumbing. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank, > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is > there anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP > exterior tank, 02 or air? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a HP > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > I first got it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Cliff, > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your > DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Some great thoughts thanks. > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( > granule size) > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of > coffee grind > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber > this would > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > the water to flow through the grind > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous > factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by > the fan & the flow > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this > is dictated > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & > during > the day. > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > balance if > you want it perfect! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles rg > wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor > performance depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles rg > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg > > *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work > the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The > first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow > throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies > for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a > distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter > known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure > divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute > pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio > less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than > 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 > and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber > was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these > are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to > push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and > the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating > anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked > better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates > than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models > of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from > Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power > rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, > these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to > meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will > operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the > backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel > Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great > on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not > work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure > drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This > showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to > sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the > unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way > much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, > model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with > enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically > below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower > did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below > is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage > across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in > my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the > backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 > amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load > was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I need > to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if I can > reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real emergency > like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could utilize at > least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup battery > consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity by the > hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my > 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles rg > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this > purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop > very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now > has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same > results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used > to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 15:19:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:19:29 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <098AFB85-2230-4B69-94E1-3413C197B6D7@gmail.com> References: <098AFB85-2230-4B69-94E1-3413C197B6D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Alec, I looked at the web site you provided and it seems too good to be true! My Scuba pro MK ll cleaned out the door less shipping was $250. I think I'll get a few, Thanks Rick On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 2:00 AM, Private via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > > As always my guiding principle is to use the simplest components I can. In > this case it's a little 1st stage made by Piranha Dive Manufacturing. I'd > never heard of this little company but their 1st stage was so reasonably > priced I ordered one just to see what it was like. Well, I liked it so much > I ordered two more. This is advertised only as Nitrox ready for up to 40% > O2. However, I spoke to the owner and he said the O rings, lube, and > cleaning process are all for 100%, but they just advertise it for 40% as a > legal CYA. It's a balanced piston design. > > http://www.piranhadivemfg.com/item/Balance-Piston-Din-First- > Stage--For-Pony--Stage-Bottles--Nitrox-Ready-11738 > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Apr 26, 2017, at 2:51 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec and Brian, > > Thanks for the response. What type of first stage are you using on the > outside tanks and are the balanced or unbalanced? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I relocated the twin air tanks outside of Harold with a 50 cf backup >> inside. O2 is now inside (20 cf tank) with pediatric regulator directly >> attached. I was uncomfortable running O2 any distance through hoses. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 15:30:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 19:30:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <1567742480.7439283.1492983206868@mail.yahoo.com> <200FB8CF-4476-4EF5-8EF7-656020BA0C99@yahoo.com> <77BABB80-AA68-4504-B28D-15B50D98D727@yahoo.com> <314823425.4631339.1493164134210@mail.yahoo.com> <1492539270.4798925.1493201608276@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1190883631.5408542.1493235030569@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,Yes there is a hull stop, it is a tower valve that the regulator fits onto. ?I guess your set up will be safer in that you will have low pressure going to the hull stop.Hank On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 1:17 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I assume that you have a hull stop valve between the hull penetrator and regulator? Rick On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:13 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,There is no HP interior plumbing in my set up.? The?paediatric regulator is connecter directly to the hull penetrator.? I guess you could argue that the tower valve is plumbing. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is there anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior tank, 02 or air?? Rick On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has ?external O2 with a HP line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with medical O2 regulator ?mounted directly ?to that penetrator.? There is no internal HP O2 line.? I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure before the hull.? Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when I first got it.Hank On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see.?Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. Thanks Rick On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z..?We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that?knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit.Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time.Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'llbe contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer tocalculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes I like it,? Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 scrubber wrong you die! Cliff On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Some great thoughts thanks.This all seems very much like the art of coffee making!You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule size)Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction.? There is the amount of coffee grindin the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this would?have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for the water to flow through the grind?to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan & the flowrate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is dictated?by the size of the hull & number of passengers.Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & duringthe day.?Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to balance ifyou want it perfect!Alan? ? Sent from my iPad On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Cliff,Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of things they would be- Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too.?Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing air through which lowers pressure.However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits.Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance depending on scrubber design. So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration of dive (especially in an emergency). For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media.One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. Greg C From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments,?a few years back I did some work the scrubber for my one-manboat and came away with some conclusions.?The first was that a radial design was better than an axial design forair flow throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule appliesfor fan/blower associated with the scrubber.?Engineers make a distinction on equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the specificratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the supply pressurewhere each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather than gagepressure.? If the device has a specificratio less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and1.2, it is a blower.? What I found from mytesting on the scrubber was that fans like you would typically see on PC areaxial flow and these are designed for high flow rates but low head. When youtry and use them to push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't haveenough head and the resulting flowrate is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywherenear their best efficiency point (BEP).?What I found worked better were squirrel cage blowers. These aredesigned for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrelblade blowers that would work but the model I use is from Papst, modelRL90-18/24.? This blower operates off24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come upall the time.? Back to the goldilocksrule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstratethat your life support system will operate through the the emergency timeperiod which is 72 hours on the backup battery.?The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel Load? for obviousreasons.? When I tested axial PC fans,they were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current butthey did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome thepressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case.?? This showed up as having erratic CO2 levelsin the boat and not being able to sustain concentrations less than ABS requiredmaximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%).? When I triedlarger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit would keep theCO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much current and ?would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model RL90-18/24 squirrel cageblower turned out to be ?perfect withenough head to circulated? the cabinair? to keep the CO2 level typicallybelow 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet the 72 ABSendurance limit but got me close.? Belowis a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltageacross the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in myboat.? You can see from the graph atabout 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted.? Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 ampsbut slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the1.5 amps that I had designed around.? Ineed to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if Ican reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hoursbecause during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement,I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For reference, the backup battery consist oftwo AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you divide the capacity by the hotel loadyou get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did betterthan expected.? . Cliff? On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian, If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. Best, Alec On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If it works, straight flow fan. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 15:39:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:39:05 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Alec, interesting input. Do you have any pictures of what you have described? Rick On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 2:35 AM, Private via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > > While we're on the subject, here's a few more details that might be worth > mentioning. > > The through-hull for O2 shouldn't be just a nipple welded into the hull, > because you'll need to remove it for cleaning. Kittredge had a nice > design. Mine consists of a bored SS insert welded into the hull. A > removable through-hull made from a large SS bolt fits into that insert and > is secured from inside with a nut. The bolt head is on the outside acting > as a shoulder and seals against the welded insert with an O ring. I bored > the bolt and put NPT threads on each end, so the O2 has no contact with the > O ring, which can be "dirty." > > The hull stop needs to be a slow-acting valve such as a needle valve. No > ball valves for O2, they are too violent. Mine are basically like the > valves on a SCUBA tank, and came O2 clean from the manufacturer. > > Clean all lines and connections per Oxygen Hackers Handbook instructions. > > The medical regulator should be pediatric, as that gives you smaller > graduations. > > Avoid a flow regulator that has the CGA 870 connector like the plague. > These are the ones with two little studs, and they use a rubberized disc > instead of an O ring. They are evil, I think they designed those seals to > maximize leaks. Instead get a flow regulator with a CGA 540 connection. NPT > to CGA 540 adapters are readily available, probably at your local welding > store. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Apr 26, 2017, at 7:14 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Mark, > > Here's how I plan to try it: > > 1) Ordered an XS Scuba tank holder from Amazon - the bungee one for > holding scuba tanks on a boat > 2) Ordered the fan Alec recommended as it's the same one I use on my > current setup and worked well for him. > 3) Printed out the fan emergency hose adapter. Send me an email and I can > send back the stl files I got from Alec. Brian at stjohnmd.org > 4) Bought an MSA M COMFO respirator hose setup on eBay. They are cheap. > It can attach to the adapter mentioned above and turn the canister into a > huge lung powered scrubber without having to hold the hose bit it in your > mouth with a scuba regulator mouthpiece. It will scrub inhalation and vent > exhalation back into the sub, but a zero net gain. > 5) Months ago I scored a box of medical clamps used for attaching things > to those roll around poles in the hospital. They're perfect for temporarily > or permamently attaching things to Harold's reinforcing rings. I can switch > between which size canister setup I want to use. > > OK, here's what will get tried and I'll post pics when done. In no > particular order. > > Tank holder gets connected to medical clamp with a spacer if needed to > hold out scrubber from the radius of the interior. Canister will be > attached to side of the rear most starboard reinforcing ring, vertically in > the middle. Drill and tap top of canister for attaching fan, make an o-ring > for a proper seal. Fan hose adapter glued to the fan. Weld a small piece > of angle iron to the reinforcing ring to hold the bottom edge of the > canister. Clamp on with fan pointed forward. Wired with 20 amp anderson > plug that, with a Y adapter, is already there and used for the ice chest > based AC system (google redneck AC for images). > > Not an engineer and likely Alec shakes his head every time he sees one of > my sub hacks, but it keeps me home at night. :-) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 15:42:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:42:29 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Alan, I had herd that an unbalanced reg would not give you it's set LP over ambient as the ambient psi increased so wanted to make sure. Rick On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > I don't think it will matter if it's either, because if the 1st stage is > producing > round about 135psi above ambient, at your max dive depth of 350ft you > will have 135 + 175 = 310psi coming out of the Ist stage & entering your > hull. > So a wild variation of pressure which will make any subtleties in > regulator > type obsolete. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 26/04/2017, at 6:51 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec and Brian, > > Thanks for the response. What type of first stage are you using on the > outside tanks and are the balanced or unbalanced? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I relocated the twin air tanks outside of Harold with a 50 cf backup >> inside. O2 is now inside (20 cf tank) with pediatric regulator directly >> attached. I was uncomfortable running O2 any distance through hoses. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 18:14:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:14:06 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] asherRe: High Pressure Pump In-Reply-To: <7DE9F72B-5A3B-4A87-B96B-E6D3F948FD61@yahoo.com> References: <3BF77B0A-C94B-4AB9-B5ED-9597000B4B87@yahoo.com> <1725845566.9071441.1493123483159@mail.yahoo.com> <566810445.9090684.1493124361458@mail.yahoo.com> <6051B67B-BF46-42A0-A90F-E2364BABAA95@yahoo.com> <1913474899.9806933.1493165024626@mail.yahoo.com> <719BE0D2-E20A-445C-9CEF-36AE7AE4E2D4@yahoo.com> <7DE9F72B-5A3B-4A87-B96B-E6D3F948FD61@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just an update on this pump. I unclipped the wiring till I was just left with the positive & negative coming out of the motor, & ran it at 32V off a bench top power supply. It was now quite quiet. I ran water through it with no constriction (as you get in the nozzle of a water blaster), & still reasonably quiet. It may get a bit more noisy if you are putting it under pressure as in pumping out the trim tank to the outside at depth, but this operation would probably be a rarity. There is a pressure switch that cuts out the motor to stop an over-pressre. This stops the motor in pressure cleaner operation when you release the trigger on the wand, as you are now impeding the flow & building up pressure. This would be a good function to maintain in a sub trim application, in case valves were inadvertently left closed when you turned the pump on. Pretty happy with it. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 26/04/2017, at 10:17 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Psubbers, > Attached is the Karcher 36V battery operated 750psi pressure washer disassembled. > I ran it before pulling it apart. It moves about 10 litres of water in 2 minutes so > a bit on the slow side. It will be OK for trimming & pumping out any excess water > but if I wanted to use it to adjust the buoyancy by 30kg for a lighter pilot, it > will take me 6 minutes. It's noisy, a bit less than your normal electric pressure > washer & probably bearable without ear muffs in the sub. It could be insulated. > It has a full power -economy & off switch. I don't know whats going on electrically > so will take it to the Karcher service centre & see what I can find out. > I have a suitable speed controller & it may be as simple as getting rid of all > the wiring accept the red & black coming out of the motor & attaching to my > motor controller. > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 26/04/2017, at 1:57 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Thanks Greg, >> I just bought the 36V Karcher pressure washer, 750 psi. I will post some >> pictures when I have pulled it to bits. The 36V battery is 2 Ah & may >> have use as an emergency back up battery for the subs life support system. >> I want to use the pump as a simple way of adjusting buoyancy for a >> wide range of pilot weights & as you suggest, utilising any space with >> contoured containers will be the way to go. I'm open to using flexible bags. >> I am not sure what the system on the Deep Worker is now, but it did have a >> soft tank system that was in the plastic seat. They would pump water out & in at the >> surface. The water filled seat proved to be a chilling experience & they moved >> away from it. I went with the high pressure pump mainly because there is a >> safety factor there if it happened to see external pressure. I haven't thought >> through this well, but it could be used like a hydraulic pump to activate external >> functions such as a buoy release mechanism or drop weight mechanism. >> Thanks for putting us on the right track. >> Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 26/04/2017, at 12:03 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> >>> I think that you could run saltwater through any of these pumps as long as you flush them with fresh water after the dive. >>> >>> The great thing about pumping water out of a soft tank for small subs is that you can fabricate a tank out of plastics or fiberglass that will fit into an otherwise unusable space. Hard tanks take up a lot of room! >>> Although its been years since my sub was underwater, it has a pair of crescent shaped plastic tanks which conform to the hull and double as seating. Everything should have at least TWO purposes! At first, I had a bronze rotary pump with a dc motor that pumped them out but after a while I just dumped the water overboard after the dive (the tanks were slender enough to get through the hatch). >>> But much of your set up will depend on how you dive. Initially, I dove the sub negative and pumping water in and out seemed the way to go. Later, I started diving slightly positive and used a vertical thruster to control altitude over the bottom. After trying both methods, I think that a few ounces positive makes diving subs a lot more fun (and safer with better vis too). The pump is only needed as a backup if you get the buoyancy right at the surface. When its time to come back up, just turn off the vertical thruster and the sub gently heads back up! This is a good way to keep saltwater out of the pump! Anyway, good luck with the build. >>> >>> Greg C >>> >>> >>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 3:44 PM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump >>> >>> Thanks Greg & Hank, >>> size is a determining factor for me as I am building a one person sub >>> smaller than Cliff's R300. >>> That 500 psi battery powered unit looks good Greg. I wonder if I could >>> put salt water through it though! >>> I saw this marine pump that looks a good alternative if I can't find anything >>> in the high pressure range. But it doesn't say you can run salt water through it. >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Seaflo-100-PSI-Water-Pump-RV-Boat-High-Pressure-Marine-Boat-4-Year-Warranty-/191830266640 >>> It is small, not much bigger than a 1 litre milk bottle (in picture) >>> There is this 1600psi AC water blaster with a "corrosion free for life" pump. >>> https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/karcher-k2-basic-electric-waterblaster-1400-watt/p/269411 >>> Perhaps I could replace the motor with one of my 2000W brushless DC motors? >>> Attached photo is of a water blaster motor & pump I have, one of my DC brushless motors with key way & a 1 litre (quart) bottle of milk for size comparison. Although >>> the water blaster is an AC unit, it has a universal motor & I have run it on 32V DC, but is very weak. >>> Another thought was to pull apart the water blaster pump & hard anodise the >>> aluminium pump body! Here we go again! >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On 26/04/2017, at 12:46 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Here's one that is 500 psi at 1 GPM- >>>> >>>> yardforceusa >>>> >>>> Greg C >>>> >>>> yardforceusa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:37 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump >>>> >>>> Hi Alan, >>>> >>>> There are now some battery powered pressure washers that should work fine. Here's a link to one of them- >>>> >>>> New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze >>>> >>>> New Hitachi Cordless 18V Pressure Washer - Tool Craze >>>> Before you had to choose between an electric plug in or a gas engine pressure washer. Now you have a third optio... >>>> >>>> >>>> Greg C >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:14 AM >>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Pump >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> I've been searching for a high pressure marine water pump over 500psi >>>> with view of using it on my trimming system & compensating system, >>>> but haven't had much luck. >>>> I want to be able to pump water out at 500 ft to adjust the buoyancy. >>>> The 500psi is for a bit of redundancy. An additional thought was that I >>>> could have a valve on it to operate a drop weight mechanism. >>>> Anybody know of any such animal in existence thanks. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 21:08:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <20170426072246.841A11E4@m0087793.ppops.net> References: <20170426072246.841A11E4@m0087793.ppops.net> Message-ID: I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. Best, Alec On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull and > on the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, > except two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and > one starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several > times already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite > particular about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 > pressure gauges but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive > bagged. I did my own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen > Hackers Companion instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a > 1st stage) were purchased O2 clean. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hank, > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is > there anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP > exterior tank, 02 or air? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a HP > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > I first got it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your > DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Some great thoughts thanks. > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( > granule size) > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of > coffee grind > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber > this would > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > the water to flow through the grind > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous > factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by > the fan & the flow > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this > is dictated > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & > during > the day. > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > balance if > you want it perfect! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles rg > wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor > performance depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles rg > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg > > *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work > the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The > first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow > throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies > for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a > distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter > known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure > divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute > pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio > less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than > 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 > and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber > was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these > are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to > push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and > the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating > anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked > better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates > than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models > of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from > Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power > rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, > these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to > meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will > operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the > backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel > Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great > on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not > work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure > drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This > showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to > sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the > unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way > much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, > model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with > enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically > below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower > did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below > is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage > across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in > my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the > backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 > amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load > was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I need > to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if I can > reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real emergency > like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could utilize at > least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup battery > consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity by the > hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my > 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles rg > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this > purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop > very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now > has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same > results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used > to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 21:34:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:34:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think you're asking about the through-hulls? My apologies, that's an item I didn't think to photograph those prior to assembly, and now they are in place there isn't much to see. On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Alec, interesting input. Do you have any pictures of what you have > described? > > Rick > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 2:35 AM, Private via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Rick, >> >> While we're on the subject, here's a few more details that might be worth >> mentioning. >> >> The through-hull for O2 shouldn't be just a nipple welded into the hull, >> because you'll need to remove it for cleaning. Kittredge had a nice >> design. Mine consists of a bored SS insert welded into the hull. A >> removable through-hull made from a large SS bolt fits into that insert and >> is secured from inside with a nut. The bolt head is on the outside acting >> as a shoulder and seals against the welded insert with an O ring. I bored >> the bolt and put NPT threads on each end, so the O2 has no contact with the >> O ring, which can be "dirty." >> >> The hull stop needs to be a slow-acting valve such as a needle valve. No >> ball valves for O2, they are too violent. Mine are basically like the >> valves on a SCUBA tank, and came O2 clean from the manufacturer. >> >> Clean all lines and connections per Oxygen Hackers Handbook instructions. >> >> The medical regulator should be pediatric, as that gives you smaller >> graduations. >> >> Avoid a flow regulator that has the CGA 870 connector like the plague. >> These are the ones with two little studs, and they use a rubberized disc >> instead of an O ring. They are evil, I think they designed those seals to >> maximize leaks. Instead get a flow regulator with a CGA 540 connection. NPT >> to CGA 540 adapters are readily available, probably at your local welding >> store. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Apr 26, 2017, at 7:14 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Mark, >> >> Here's how I plan to try it: >> >> 1) Ordered an XS Scuba tank holder from Amazon - the bungee one for >> holding scuba tanks on a boat >> 2) Ordered the fan Alec recommended as it's the same one I use on my >> current setup and worked well for him. >> 3) Printed out the fan emergency hose adapter. Send me an email and I can >> send back the stl files I got from Alec. Brian at stjohnmd.org >> 4) Bought an MSA M COMFO respirator hose setup on eBay. They are cheap. >> It can attach to the adapter mentioned above and turn the canister into a >> huge lung powered scrubber without having to hold the hose bit it in your >> mouth with a scuba regulator mouthpiece. It will scrub inhalation and vent >> exhalation back into the sub, but a zero net gain. >> 5) Months ago I scored a box of medical clamps used for attaching things >> to those roll around poles in the hospital. They're perfect for temporarily >> or permamently attaching things to Harold's reinforcing rings. I can switch >> between which size canister setup I want to use. >> >> OK, here's what will get tried and I'll post pics when done. In no >> particular order. >> >> Tank holder gets connected to medical clamp with a spacer if needed to >> hold out scrubber from the radius of the interior. Canister will be >> attached to side of the rear most starboard reinforcing ring, vertically in >> the middle. Drill and tap top of canister for attaching fan, make an o-ring >> for a proper seal. Fan hose adapter glued to the fan. Weld a small piece >> of angle iron to the reinforcing ring to hold the bottom edge of the >> canister. Clamp on with fan pointed forward. Wired with 20 amp anderson >> plug that, with a Y adapter, is already there and used for the ice chest >> based AC system (google redneck AC for images). >> >> Not an engineer and likely Alec shakes his head every time he sees one of >> my sub hacks, but it keeps me home at night. :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 26 22:02:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 16:02:28 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alec, I haven't been very good about photo documenting my build as well. I unfortunately don't have a lathe or the knowledge to make the Bronze thru hull that the Capetian came up with on the plans and by looking at the complexity of it figured that it would be expensive for a machinist to make so I figured that I would be able to satisfactorily clean a sked 80 ss nipple that was welded into the hull plus the fact that I am dealing with LP, didn't think it would be a problem. Rick On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I think you're asking about the through-hulls? My apologies, that's an > item I didn't think to photograph those prior to assembly, and now they are > in place there isn't much to see. > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Thanks Alec, interesting input. Do you have any pictures of what you have >> described? >> >> Rick >> >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 2:35 AM, Private via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Rick, >>> >>> While we're on the subject, here's a few more details that might be >>> worth mentioning. >>> >>> The through-hull for O2 shouldn't be just a nipple welded into the hull, >>> because you'll need to remove it for cleaning. Kittredge had a nice >>> design. Mine consists of a bored SS insert welded into the hull. A >>> removable through-hull made from a large SS bolt fits into that insert and >>> is secured from inside with a nut. The bolt head is on the outside acting >>> as a shoulder and seals against the welded insert with an O ring. I bored >>> the bolt and put NPT threads on each end, so the O2 has no contact with the >>> O ring, which can be "dirty." >>> >>> The hull stop needs to be a slow-acting valve such as a needle valve. No >>> ball valves for O2, they are too violent. Mine are basically like the >>> valves on a SCUBA tank, and came O2 clean from the manufacturer. >>> >>> Clean all lines and connections per Oxygen Hackers Handbook instructions. >>> >>> The medical regulator should be pediatric, as that gives you smaller >>> graduations. >>> >>> Avoid a flow regulator that has the CGA 870 connector like the plague. >>> These are the ones with two little studs, and they use a rubberized disc >>> instead of an O ring. They are evil, I think they designed those seals to >>> maximize leaks. Instead get a flow regulator with a CGA 540 connection. NPT >>> to CGA 540 adapters are readily available, probably at your local welding >>> store. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 7:14 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Mark, >>> >>> Here's how I plan to try it: >>> >>> 1) Ordered an XS Scuba tank holder from Amazon - the bungee one for >>> holding scuba tanks on a boat >>> 2) Ordered the fan Alec recommended as it's the same one I use on my >>> current setup and worked well for him. >>> 3) Printed out the fan emergency hose adapter. Send me an email and I >>> can send back the stl files I got from Alec. Brian at stjohnmd.org >>> 4) Bought an MSA M COMFO respirator hose setup on eBay. They are cheap. >>> It can attach to the adapter mentioned above and turn the canister into a >>> huge lung powered scrubber without having to hold the hose bit it in your >>> mouth with a scuba regulator mouthpiece. It will scrub inhalation and vent >>> exhalation back into the sub, but a zero net gain. >>> 5) Months ago I scored a box of medical clamps used for attaching things >>> to those roll around poles in the hospital. They're perfect for temporarily >>> or permamently attaching things to Harold's reinforcing rings. I can switch >>> between which size canister setup I want to use. >>> >>> OK, here's what will get tried and I'll post pics when done. In no >>> particular order. >>> >>> Tank holder gets connected to medical clamp with a spacer if needed to >>> hold out scrubber from the radius of the interior. Canister will be >>> attached to side of the rear most starboard reinforcing ring, vertically in >>> the middle. Drill and tap top of canister for attaching fan, make an o-ring >>> for a proper seal. Fan hose adapter glued to the fan. Weld a small piece >>> of angle iron to the reinforcing ring to hold the bottom edge of the >>> canister. Clamp on with fan pointed forward. Wired with 20 amp anderson >>> plug that, with a Y adapter, is already there and used for the ice chest >>> based AC system (google redneck AC for images). >>> >>> Not an engineer and likely Alec shakes his head every time he sees one >>> of my sub hacks, but it keeps me home at night. :-) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 01:26:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 22:26:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Message-ID: <20170426222615.8433FFDA@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 05:05:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <20170426222615.8433FFDA@m0087796.ppops.net> References: <20170426222615.8433FFDA@m0087796.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I like it to be super safe. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/extended_files/Page647.htm On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a needle > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull and on > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, except > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several times > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite particular > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure gauges > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did my > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > purchased O2 clean. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hank, > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is there > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior tank, > 02 or air? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a HP > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > I first got it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Cliff, > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Some great thoughts thanks. > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule > size) > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of coffee > grind > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this > would > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > the water to flow through the grind > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan > & the flow > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is > dictated > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & during > the day. > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > balance if > you want it perfect! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance > depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ________________________________ > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles rg> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work the > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The first > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow throws > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction on > equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather > than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, they > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like you > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through the > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting flowrate > is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their best > efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with > more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 > amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to the > goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which is > 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is known as > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much > current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough head > to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me meet > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel load > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see from > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps > over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the contributors > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. If > it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 11:51:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 08:51:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Message-ID: <20170427085123.841F051E@m0087795.ppops.net> James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece of bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 Hi Brian I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I like it to be super safe. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/extended_files/Page647.htm On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a needle > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull and on > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, except > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several times > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite particular > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure gauges > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did my > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > purchased O2 clean. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hank, > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is there > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior tank, > 02 or air? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a HP > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > I first got it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Cliff, > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Some great thoughts thanks. > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule > size) > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of coffee > grind > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this > would > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > the water to flow through the grind > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan > & the flow > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is > dictated > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & during > the day. > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > balance if > you want it perfect! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance > depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ________________________________ > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles rg> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work the > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The first > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow throws > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction on > equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather > than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, they > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like you > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through the > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting flowrate > is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their best > efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with > more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 > amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to the > goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which is > 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is known as > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much > current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough head > to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me meet > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel load > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see from > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps > over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the contributors > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. If > it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 12:15:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:15:39 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <20170427085123.841F051E@m0087795.ppops.net> References: <20170427085123.841F051E@m0087795.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless insert welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. Have a look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end for the valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in. probably makes it look longer than it is. I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from a standard metal supplier in UK. ?Was quite expensive though. On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be > so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece of > bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 > > Hi Brian > I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through > hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve > fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. > Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) > tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I > like it to be super safe. > > http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/extended_files/Page647.htm > > On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the > > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a > needle > > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org> > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org> > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull > and on > > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, > except > > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several > times > > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite > particular > > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure > gauges > > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did > my > > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > > purchased O2 clean. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hank, > > > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is > there > > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior > tank, > > 02 or air? > > > > Rick > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Rick, > > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a > HP > > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve > with > > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 > pressure > > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 > when > > I first got it. > > Hank > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs > for > > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a > response > > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at > stage. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rick > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Cliff, > > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your > DIY > > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > > scrubber wrong you die! > > > > Cliff > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Some great thoughts thanks. > > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( > granule > > size) > > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of > coffee > > grind > > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber > this > > would > > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take > for > > the water to flow through the grind > > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous > factors > > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the > fan > > & the flow > > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this > is > > dictated > > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & > during > > the day. > > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > > balance if > > you want it perfect! > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Cliff, > > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > > things they would be- > > > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > > air through which lowers pressure. > > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor > performance > > depending on scrubber design. > > > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over > duration > > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during > an > > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the > old > > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > > > Greg C > > ________________________________ > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > rg> > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > rg> > > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work > the > > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The > first > > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow > throws > > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > > fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction on > > equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the > > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure > rather > > than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, > they > > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > > blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like > you > > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through > the > > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting > flowrate > > is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their > best > > efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage > > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but > with > > more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers > that > > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This > blower > > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to > 0.31 > > amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to > the > > goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your > life > > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which > is > > 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is known > as > > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they > > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome > the > > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my > case. > > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being > able > > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm > (1/2%). > > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the > unit > > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way > much > > current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model > > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough > head > > to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 > ppm > > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me > meet > > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel > load > > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup > battery > > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see > from > > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was > exhausted. > > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 > amps > > over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > > that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the > contributors > > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours > > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For > > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you > > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > > . > > > > > > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer > > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very > little > > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much > better > > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alec, > > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, > used to > > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the > > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If > > it works, straight flow fan. > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 12:28:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 16:28:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <20170427085123.841F051E@m0087795.ppops.net> Message-ID: <41494646.6177678.1493310496200@mail.yahoo.com> Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. ?I have a regular steel penetrator for HP O2, ?what am I missing. ?If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then why the special bronze? ?I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze. ?I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. ?Gamma just had a steel penetrator for HP ?O2 as well.Hank On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian I?just made it as per the plans.? It fits through a stainless?insert welded into the hull.???I hadnt put the threads on in this pic.? Have a look at the drawing, you can see where they will go.? one each end for the valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in.? probably makes it look longer than it is.?I didn't have an issue getting the material.? I just ordered from a standard metal supplier in UK.? ?Was quite expensive though.?? On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,? ?that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be so long?? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze"? I have a piece of bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 Hi Brian I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside.? Pic here of the bronze through hull.? Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve fittings.? The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications.? I like it to be super safe. http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec,? ?So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP? O2 coming into the > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > bronze thru hull fitting ?? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a needle > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec,? ? ? ? ?When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull and on > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, except > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several times > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite particular > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure gauges > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did my > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > purchased O2 clean. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hank, > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is there > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior tank, > 02 or air? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has? external O2 with a HP > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > medical O2 regulator? mounted directly? to that penetrator.? There is no > internal HP O2 line.? I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > before the hull.? Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > I first got it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Cliff, > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Yes I like it,? Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Some great thoughts thanks. > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule > size) > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction.? There is the amount of coffee > grind > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this > would > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > the water to flow through the grind > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan > & the flow > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is > dictated > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & during > the day. > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > balance if > you want it perfect! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance > depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ______________________________ __ > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles rg> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work the > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions.? The first > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow throws > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > fan/blower associated with the scrubber.? Engineers make a distinction on > equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather > than gage pressure.? If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, they > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > blower.? What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like you > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through the > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting flowrate > is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywhere near their best > efficiency point (BEP).? What I found worked better were squirrel cage > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with > more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24.? This blower > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 > amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time.? Back to the > goldilocks rule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which is > 72 hours on the backup battery.? The current during this period is known as > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons.? When I tested axial PC fans, they > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much > current and? would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be? perfect with enough head > to circulated? the cabin air? to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close.? Below is a graph of hotel load > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat.? You can see from > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps > over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > that I had designed around.? I need to go back and look at the contributors > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hours > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If > it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 13:25:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:25:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <20170426222615.8433FFDA@m0087796.ppops.net> References: <20170426222615.8433FFDA@m0087796.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian, The sequence is correct but I would use brass tubing, valves, and fittings due to the high pressure. Ever seen a welding O2 tank with the valve made of anything but brass? I'm not sure what James' "tungem" is, I've never even heard of that. But anyway... as a starting point I would recommend getting a copy of the Oxygen Hacker's Companion. It is truly indispensable reading. The problem with O2 is that you can have a very bad day due to causes that are easy to overlook, or which might be perfectly OK with HP air. Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 1:26 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a needle > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull and > on the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, > except two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and > one starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several > times already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite > particular about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 > pressure gauges but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive > bagged. I did my own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen > Hackers Companion instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a > 1st stage) were purchased O2 clean. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hank, > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is > there anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP > exterior tank, 02 or air? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a HP > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > I first got it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your > DIY coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Some great thoughts thanks. > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( > granule size) > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of > coffee grind > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber > this would > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > the water to flow through the grind > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous > factors & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by > the fan & the flow > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this > is dictated > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & > during > the day. > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > balance if > you want it perfect! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles rg > wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor > performance depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles rg > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg > > *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work > the scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The > first was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow > throws the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies > for fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a > distinction on equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter > known as the specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure > divided by the supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute > pressure rather than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio > less than 1.1, they call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than > 1.2 they call it compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 > and 1.2, it is a blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber > was that fans like you would typically see on PC are axial flow and these > are designed for high flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to > push air through the CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and > the resulting flowrate is very low. In this case they are not operating > anywhere near their best efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked > better were squirrel cage blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates > than PC axial fans but with more head. I am sure there are many models > of squirrel blade blowers that would work but the model I use is from > Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower operates off 24VDC and has a power > rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 amps. If you look on ebay, > these blowers come up all the time. Back to the goldilocks rule; to > meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life support system will > operate through the the emergency time period which is 72 hours on the > backup battery. The current during this period is known as the ?Hotel > Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they were great > on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but they did not > work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the pressure > drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. This > showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able to > sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the > unit would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way > much current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, > model RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with > enough head to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically > below 2000 ppm but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower > did not let me meet the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below > is a graph of hotel load current through my backup battery and the voltage > across the backup battery as a function of time on a life support test in > my boat. You can see from the graph at about 69 hours into the test the > backup battery was exhausted. Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 > amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps over the 69 hours. This hotel load > was a little higher than the 1.5 amps that I had designed around. I need > to go back and look at the contributors to this hotel load and see if I can > reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours because during a real emergency > like be stranded on the bottom due to entanglement, I could utilize at > least some of the main battery. For reference, the backup battery > consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you divide the capacity by the > hotel load you get the expected endurance of 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my > 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles rg > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this > purpose. I believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop > very little pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now > has much better performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same > results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used > to strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 13:43:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:43:16 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <41494646.6177678.1493310496200@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170427085123.841F051E@m0087795.ppops.net> <41494646.6177678.1493310496200@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen Hackers Companion... Best, Alec ----------------- For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP O2. .. blah, blah.. When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi! .. blah, blah.. The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway combustion. ------------------ On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. I have a regular steel penetrator for > HP O2, what am I missing. If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then > why the special bronze? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze. > I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. Gamma just > had a steel penetrator for HP O2 as well. > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Brian > > I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless insert > welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. Have a > look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end for the > valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in. > probably makes it look longer than it is. > > I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from a > standard metal supplier in UK. > ?Was quite expensive though. > > > > On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be > so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece of > bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 > > Hi Brian > I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through > hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve > fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. > Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) > tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I > like it to be super safe. > > http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm > > > On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the > > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a > needle > > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull > and on > > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, > except > > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several > times > > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite > particular > > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure > gauges > > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did > my > > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > > purchased O2 clean. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Hank, > > > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is > there > > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior > tank, > > 02 or air? > > > > Rick > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Rick, > > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a > HP > > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve > with > > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 > pressure > > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 > when > > I first got it. > > Hank > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs > for > > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a > response > > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at > stage. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rick > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Cliff, > > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your > DIY > > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > > scrubber wrong you die! > > > > Cliff > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Some great thoughts thanks. > > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( > granule > > size) > > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of > coffee > > grind > > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber > this > > would > > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take > for > > the water to flow through the grind > > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous > factors > > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the > fan > > & the flow > > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this > is > > dictated > > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & > during > > the day. > > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > > balance if > > you want it perfect! > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Cliff, > > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > > things they would be- > > > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > > air through which lowers pressure. > > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor > performance > > depending on scrubber design. > > > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over > duration > > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during > an > > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the > old > > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > > > Greg C > > ______________________________ __ > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > rg> > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > rg> > > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work > the > > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The > first > > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow > throws > > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > > fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction on > > equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the > > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure > rather > > than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, > they > > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > > blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like > you > > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through > the > > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting > flowrate > > is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their > best > > efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage > > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but > with > > more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers > that > > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This > blower > > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to > 0.31 > > amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to > the > > goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your > life > > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which > is > > 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is known > as > > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they > > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome > the > > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my > case. > > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being > able > > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm > (1/2%). > > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the > unit > > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way > much > > current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model > > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough > head > > to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 > ppm > > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me > meet > > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel > load > > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup > battery > > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see > from > > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was > exhausted. > > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 > amps > > over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > > that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the > contributors > > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours > > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For > > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you > > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > > . > > > > > > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer > > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very > little > > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much > better > > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alec, > > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, > used to > > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the > > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If > > it works, straight flow fan. > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 15:32:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 12:32:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Message-ID: <20170427123243.84199719@m0087792.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 15:59:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:59:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <20170427123243.84199719@m0087792.ppops.net> References: <20170427123243.84199719@m0087792.ppops.net> Message-ID: <296493948.2507222.1493323177097@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,Thanks', I guess I better make a change. ?Grrrr! ?So there should be no SS tubing either. ?I use a HP plastic lined ss braided hose to go from tank to hull. ?I once found a medical cabinet at our local dump in the metal pile and it was full of regulators and switches and all 1\8 ?brass ?lines. ?I can probably feed a 1\8 brass ?line through the original penetrator with a brass ?fitting screwed into the penetrator. ?I am going to check my drawer where I keep that stuff.Hank On Thursday, April 27, 2017 1:33 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,?? I wonder if Swagelok carries brass tubing.?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:43:16 -0400 Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen Hackers Companion... Best, Alec -----------------For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP O2.? .. blah, blah.. When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi!? .. blah, blah.. The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway combustion.------------------ On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hmmm, you guys have me worried now.? I have a regular steel penetrator for HP O2, ?what am I missing.? If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then why the special bronze?? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze.? I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up.? Gamma just had a steel penetrator for HP ?O2 as well.Hank On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian I?just made it as per the plans.? It fits through a stainless?insert welded into the hull.???I hadnt put the threads on in this pic.? Have a look at the drawing, you can see where they will go.? one each end for the valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in.? probably makes it look longer than it is.?I didn't have an issue getting the material.? I just ordered from a standard metal supplier in UK.? ?Was quite expensive though.?? On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,? ?that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be so long?? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze"? I have a piece of bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 Hi Brian I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside.? Pic here of the bronze through hull.? Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve fittings.? The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications.? I like it to be super safe. http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec,? ?So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP? O2 coming into the > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > bronze thru hull fitting ?? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a needle > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec,? ? ? ? ?When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull and on > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, except > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several times > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite particular > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure gauges > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did my > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > purchased O2 clean. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hank, > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is there > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior tank, > 02 or air? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has? external O2 with a HP > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > medical O2 regulator? mounted directly? to that penetrator.? There is no > internal HP O2 line.? I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > before the hull.? Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > I first got it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Cliff, > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Yes I like it,? Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Some great thoughts thanks. > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule > size) > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction.? There is the amount of coffee > grind > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this > would > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > the water to flow through the grind > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan > & the flow > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is > dictated > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & during > the day. > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > balance if > you want it perfect! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance > depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ______________________________ __ > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles rg> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work the > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions.? The first > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow throws > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > fan/blower associated with the scrubber.? Engineers make a distinction on > equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather > than gage pressure.? If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, they > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > blower.? What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like you > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through the > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting flowrate > is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywhere near their best > efficiency point (BEP).? What I found worked better were squirrel cage > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with > more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24.? This blower > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 > amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time.? Back to the > goldilocks rule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which is > 72 hours on the backup battery.? The current during this period is known as > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons.? When I tested axial PC fans, they > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much > current and? would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be? perfect with enough head > to circulated? the cabin air? to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close.? Below is a graph of hotel load > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat.? You can see from > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps > over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > that I had designed around.? I need to go back and look at the contributors > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hours > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If > it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --94eb2c07259ef69e58054e297db2--_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 16:17:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 20:17:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <296493948.2507222.1493323177097@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170427123243.84199719@m0087792.ppops.net> <296493948.2507222.1493323177097@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1738404344.6398494.1493324262926@mail.yahoo.com> It is interesting that aluminum and steel are so?dangerous but they are the two materials used to make the HP tanks that contain the O2Hank On Thursday, April 27, 2017 2:03 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Thanks', I guess I better make a change. ?Grrrr! ?So there should be no SS tubing either. ?I use a HP plastic lined ss braided hose to go from tank to hull. ?I once found a medical cabinet at our local dump in the metal pile and it was full of regulators and switches and all 1\8 ?brass ?lines. ?I can probably feed a 1\8 brass ?line through the original penetrator with a brass ?fitting screwed into the penetrator. ?I am going to check my drawer where I keep that stuff.Hank On Thursday, April 27, 2017 1:33 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,?? I wonder if Swagelok carries brass tubing.?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:43:16 -0400 Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen Hackers Companion... Best, Alec -----------------For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP O2.? .. blah, blah.. When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi!? .. blah, blah.. The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway combustion.------------------ On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hmmm, you guys have me worried now.? I have a regular steel penetrator for HP O2, ?what am I missing.? If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then why the special bronze?? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze.? I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up.? Gamma just had a steel penetrator for HP ?O2 as well.Hank On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian I?just made it as per the plans.? It fits through a stainless?insert welded into the hull.???I hadnt put the threads on in this pic.? Have a look at the drawing, you can see where they will go.? one each end for the valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in.? probably makes it look longer than it is.?I didn't have an issue getting the material.? I just ordered from a standard metal supplier in UK.? ?Was quite expensive though.?? On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,? ?that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be so long?? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze"? I have a piece of bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 Hi Brian I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside.? Pic here of the bronze through hull.? Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve fittings.? The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications.? I like it to be super safe. http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec,? ?So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP? O2 coming into the > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > bronze thru hull fitting ?? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a needle > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec,? ? ? ? ?When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull and on > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, except > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several times > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite particular > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure gauges > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did my > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > purchased O2 clean. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hank, > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is there > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior tank, > 02 or air? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has? external O2 with a HP > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > medical O2 regulator? mounted directly? to that penetrator.? There is no > internal HP O2 line.? I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > before the hull.? Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > I first got it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Cliff, > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Yes I like it,? Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Some great thoughts thanks. > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule > size) > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction.? There is the amount of coffee > grind > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this > would > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > the water to flow through the grind > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan > & the flow > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is > dictated > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & during > the day. > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > balance if > you want it perfect! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance > depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ______________________________ __ > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles rg> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work the > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions.? The first > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow throws > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > fan/blower associated with the scrubber.? Engineers make a distinction on > equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather > than gage pressure.? If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, they > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > blower.? What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like you > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through the > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting flowrate > is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywhere near their best > efficiency point (BEP).? What I found worked better were squirrel cage > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with > more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24.? This blower > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 > amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time.? Back to the > goldilocks rule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which is > 72 hours on the backup battery.? The current during this period is known as > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons.? When I tested axial PC fans, they > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much > current and? would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be? perfect with enough head > to circulated? the cabin air? to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close.? Below is a graph of hotel load > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat.? You can see from > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps > over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > that I had designed around.? I need to go back and look at the contributors > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hours > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If > it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --94eb2c07259ef69e58054e297db2--_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 16:45:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 20:45:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <1738404344.6398494.1493324262926@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170427123243.84199719@m0087792.ppops.net> <296493948.2507222.1493323177097@mail.yahoo.com> <1738404344.6398494.1493324262926@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <926797924.11796609.1493325916997@mail.yahoo.com> It's the movement of the gas and the stop/ starts that can cause ignition. The risk goes way up with higher pressures. If you look at the instructions for O2 regulators for cutting torches they usually say the if the job demands a pressure setting of more than 15 PSI then you need to switch to a regulator with higher flow. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers It is interesting that aluminum and steel are so?dangerous but they are the two materials used to make the HP tanks that contain the O2Hank On Thursday, April 27, 2017 2:03 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Thanks', I guess I better make a change. ?Grrrr! ?So there should be no SS tubing either. ?I use a HP plastic lined ss braided hose to go from tank to hull. ?I once found a medical cabinet at our local dump in the metal pile and it was full of regulators and switches and all 1\8 ?brass ?lines. ?I can probably feed a 1\8 brass ?line through the original penetrator with a brass ?fitting screwed into the penetrator. ?I am going to check my drawer where I keep that stuff.Hank On Thursday, April 27, 2017 1:33 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,?? I wonder if Swagelok carries brass tubing.?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:43:16 -0400 Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen Hackers Companion... Best, Alec -----------------For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP O2.? .. blah, blah.. When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi!? .. blah, blah.. The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway combustion.------------------ On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hmmm, you guys have me worried now.? I have a regular steel penetrator for HP O2, ?what am I missing.? If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then why the special bronze?? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze.? I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up.? Gamma just had a steel penetrator for HP ?O2 as well.Hank On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian I?just made it as per the plans.? It fits through a stainless?insert welded into the hull.???I hadnt put the threads on in this pic.? Have a look at the drawing, you can see where they will go.? one each end for the valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in.? probably makes it look longer than it is.?I didn't have an issue getting the material.? I just ordered from a standard metal supplier in UK.? ?Was quite expensive though.?? On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,? ?that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be so long?? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze"? I have a piece of bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 Hi Brian I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside.? Pic here of the bronze through hull.? Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve fittings.? The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications.? I like it to be super safe. http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec,? ?So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP? O2 coming into the > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > bronze thru hull fitting ?? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a needle > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec,? ? ? ? ?When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull and on > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, except > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several times > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite particular > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure gauges > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did my > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > purchased O2 clean. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hank, > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is there > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior tank, > 02 or air? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has? external O2 with a HP > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > medical O2 regulator? mounted directly? to that penetrator.? There is no > internal HP O2 line.? I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > before the hull.? Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > I first got it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Cliff, > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Yes I like it,? Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Some great thoughts thanks. > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule > size) > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction.? There is the amount of coffee > grind > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this > would > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > the water to flow through the grind > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan > & the flow > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is > dictated > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & during > the day. > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > balance if > you want it perfect! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance > depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ______________________________ __ > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles rg> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work the > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions.? The first > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow throws > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > fan/blower associated with the scrubber.? Engineers make a distinction on > equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather > than gage pressure.? If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, they > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > blower.? What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like you > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through the > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting flowrate > is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywhere near their best > efficiency point (BEP).? What I found worked better were squirrel cage > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with > more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24.? This blower > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 > amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time.? Back to the > goldilocks rule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which is > 72 hours on the backup battery.? The current during this period is known as > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons.? When I tested axial PC fans, they > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much > current and? would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be? perfect with enough head > to circulated? the cabin air? to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close.? Below is a graph of hotel load > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat.? You can see from > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps > over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > that I had designed around.? I need to go back and look at the contributors > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hours > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If > it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --94eb2c07259ef69e58054e297db2--_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 17:07:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:07:23 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Message-ID: A quick search reveals that "Tungum" is an Aluminum-Silicon-Nickel-Brass alloy that forms a particularly durable protective oxide layer, is extra corrosion resistant, and can be precipitation hardened like aluminum. http://www.supertechnical.com/products_files/TUNGUMALLOY.pdf It seems like the best and most expensive option for salt-water exposed high pressure oxygen components. Probably way overkill for a sub that only spends a day or two every other month in the water. - River J. Dolfi rdolfi7 at gmail.com rwd5301 at psu.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 18:27:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 10:27:15 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <926797924.11796609.1493325916997@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170427123243.84199719@m0087792.ppops.net> <296493948.2507222.1493323177097@mail.yahoo.com> <1738404344.6398494.1493324262926@mail.yahoo.com> <926797924.11796609.1493325916997@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C4C7BBB-26BC-4465-9A00-8D7C188CE7F6@yahoo.com> You need to be careful of any little burs from machining, or that you don't cause any burs from cross threading etc. They can be fired down your high pressure O2 line with a few thousand psi pressure behind them, & cause sparks. Turning on slowly would help prevent that if there were any bits of metal in the system. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 28/04/2017, at 8:45 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > It's the movement of the gas and the stop/ starts that can cause ignition. The risk goes way up with higher pressures. If you look at the instructions for O2 regulators for cutting torches they usually say the if the job demands a pressure setting of more than 15 PSI then you need to switch to a regulator with higher flow. > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > It is interesting that aluminum and steel are so dangerous but they are the two materials used to make the HP tanks that contain the O2 > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 27, 2017 2:03 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alec, > Thanks', I guess I better make a change. Grrrr! So there should be no SS tubing either. I use a HP plastic lined ss braided hose to go from tank to hull. I once found a medical cabinet at our local dump in the metal pile and it was full of regulators and switches and all 1\8 brass lines. > I can probably feed a 1\8 brass line through the original penetrator with a brass fitting screwed into the penetrator. I am going to check my drawer where I keep that stuff. > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 27, 2017 1:33 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alec, I wonder if Swagelok carries brass tubing. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:43:16 -0400 > > Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen Hackers Companion... > > Best, > > Alec > > ----------------- > For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP O2. > > .. blah, blah.. > > When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi! > > .. blah, blah.. > > The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway combustion. > ------------------ > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. I have a regular steel penetrator for HP O2, what am I missing. If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then why the special bronze? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze. I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. Gamma just had a steel penetrator for HP O2 as well. > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Brian > > I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless insert welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. Have a look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end for the valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in. probably makes it look longer than it is. > > I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from a standard metal supplier in UK. <123.jpg> > ?Was quite expensive though. > > > > On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece of bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 > > Hi Brian > I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through > hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve > fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. > Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) > tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I > like it to be super safe. > > http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm > > On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the > > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a needle > > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull and on > > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, except > > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several times > > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite particular > > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure gauges > > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did my > > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > > purchased O2 clean. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hank, > > > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is there > > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior tank, > > 02 or air? > > > > Rick > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Rick, > > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a HP > > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > > I first got it. > > Hank > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rick > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Cliff, > > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY > > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > > scrubber wrong you die! > > > > Cliff > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Some great thoughts thanks. > > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule > > size) > > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of coffee > > grind > > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this > > would > > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > > the water to flow through the grind > > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors > > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan > > & the flow > > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is > > dictated > > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & during > > the day. > > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > > balance if > > you want it perfect! > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Cliff, > > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > > things they would be- > > > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > > air through which lowers pressure. > > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance > > depending on scrubber design. > > > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > > > Greg C > > ______________________________ __ > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > rg> > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > rg> > > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work the > > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The first > > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow throws > > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > > fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction on > > equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the > > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather > > than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, they > > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > > blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like you > > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through the > > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting flowrate > > is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their best > > efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage > > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with > > more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that > > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower > > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 > > amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to the > > goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life > > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which is > > 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is known as > > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they > > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the > > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. > > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able > > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit > > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much > > current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model > > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough head > > to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm > > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me meet > > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel load > > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery > > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see from > > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. > > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps > > over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > > that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the contributors > > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours > > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For > > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you > > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > > . > > > > > > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer > > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little > > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better > > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alec, > > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to > > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the > > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. If > > it works, straight flow fan. > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > --94eb2c07259ef69e58054e297db2--_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > <123.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 18:36:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:36:51 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <20170427085123.841F051E@m0087795.ppops.net> <41494646.6177678.1493310496200@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in the "Oxygen Hackers Companion", you will note that the author says "Stainless steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..." "CGA specifies that valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS. NASA has researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and does not reject SS exclusively. I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings for all my O2 service on my boat . If you O2 clean the systems and use approved O2 lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the "fuel" leg of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source). If you are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow transfer rates of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level. I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves and replace them with brass. In my mind there is certain level of risk associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like risk level 97 out of 100! Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks can get, I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft tubing and fittings than the combustion issues sited above. I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 Vancouver Psub convention in Phil's shop. All tubing and valves I could see where SS. Cliff On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen > Hackers Companion... > > Best, > > Alec > > ----------------- > For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to > HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. > Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of > safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating > - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made > of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of > combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely > out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel > is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a > cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so > readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere > in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is > not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often > rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 > psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't > any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. > It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP > O2. > > .. blah, blah.. > > When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen > necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is > light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). > Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, > mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi! > > .. blah, blah.. > > The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal > parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, > one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that > resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway > combustion. > ------------------ > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. I have a regular steel penetrator >> for HP O2, what am I missing. If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe >> then why the special bronze? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not >> bronze. I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. >> Gamma just had a steel penetrator for HP O2 as well. >> Hank >> >> >> On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Brian >> >> I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless insert >> welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. Have a >> look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end for the >> valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in. >> probably makes it look longer than it is. >> >> I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from a >> standard metal supplier in UK. >> ?Was quite expensive though. >> >> >> >> On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be >> so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece of >> bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org >> wrote: >> >> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > org > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > org > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 >> >> Hi Brian >> I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through >> hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve >> fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. >> Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) >> tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I >> like it to be super safe. >> >> http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm >> >> >> On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> > >> wrote: >> > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the >> > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a >> > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a >> needle >> > valve type) and then to my flow meter. >> > >> > Brian C >> > >> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org >> wrote: >> > >> > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > org > >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >> > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 >> > >> > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a >> material >> > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're >> > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Alec >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have >> to >> > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? >> > >> > Brian C >> > >> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org >> wrote: >> > >> > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > org > >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >> > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 >> > >> > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 >> > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull >> and on >> > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, >> except >> > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one >> > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several >> times >> > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite >> particular >> > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure >> gauges >> > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I >> did my >> > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion >> > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were >> > purchased O2 clean. >> > >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Alec >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > Hank, >> > >> > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be >> > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any >> HP >> > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is >> there >> > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior >> tank, >> > 02 or air? >> > >> > Rick >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > Rick, >> > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a >> HP >> > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve >> with >> > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no >> > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 >> pressure >> > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 >> when >> > I first got it. >> > Hank >> > >> > >> > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs >> for >> > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a >> response >> > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. >> > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of >> > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from >> > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at >> stage. >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > Rick >> > >> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > Cliff, >> > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. >> > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that >> > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. >> > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. >> > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll >> > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to >> > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. >> > Cheers Alan >> > >> > Sent from my iPad >> > >> > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get >> your DIY >> > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 >> > scrubber wrong you die! >> > >> > Cliff >> > >> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Some great thoughts thanks. >> > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! >> > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( >> granule >> > size) >> > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of >> coffee >> > grind >> > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber >> this >> > would >> > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed >> > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the >> > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take >> for >> > the water to flow through the grind >> > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous >> factors >> > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the >> fan >> > & the flow >> > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & >> this is >> > dictated >> > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. >> > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & >> during >> > the day. >> > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to >> > balance if >> > you want it perfect! >> > Alan >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Sent from my iPad >> > >> > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Cliff, >> > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple >> of >> > things they would be- >> > >> > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. >> > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher >> > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to >> drawing >> > air through which lowers pressure. >> > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose >> > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. >> > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor >> performance >> > depending on scrubber design. >> > >> > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow >> sufficient >> > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over >> duration >> > of dive (especially in an emergency). >> > >> > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The >> lungs >> > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear >> > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. >> > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather >> > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub >> during an >> > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the >> old >> > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. >> > >> > Greg C >> > ______________________________ __ >> > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> > > rg> >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > > rg> >> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay >> > >> > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work >> the >> > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The >> first >> > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow >> throws >> > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for >> > fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction >> on >> > equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the >> > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the >> > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure >> rather >> > than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, >> they >> > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it >> > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a >> > blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans >> like you >> > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high >> > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through >> the >> > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting >> flowrate >> > is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their >> best >> > efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage >> > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but >> with >> > more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers >> that >> > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This >> blower >> > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to >> 0.31 >> > amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back >> to the >> > goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your >> life >> > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which >> is >> > 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is >> known as >> > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they >> > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but >> > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to >> overcome the >> > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my >> case. >> > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being >> able >> > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm >> (1/2%). >> > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the >> unit >> > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way >> much >> > current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, >> model >> > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough >> head >> > to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below >> 2000 ppm >> > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me >> meet >> > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel >> load >> > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup >> battery >> > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see >> from >> > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was >> exhausted. >> > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 >> amps >> > over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 >> amps >> > that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the >> contributors >> > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 >> hours >> > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to >> > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For >> > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If >> you >> > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of >> > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. >> > . >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Cliff >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Brian, >> > >> > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a >> computer >> > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. >> I >> > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very >> little >> > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much >> better >> > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Alec >> > >> > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Alec, >> > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, >> used to >> > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from >> the >> > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. >> If >> > it works, straight flow fan. >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles >> > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles >> > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 19:20:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 23:20:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <20170427085123.841F051E@m0087795.ppops.net> <41494646.6177678.1493310496200@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <665453076.86665.1493335212357@mail.yahoo.com> I prefer to carry a few small O2 bottles in the sub (even though it is not to ABS standards). I've never seen or heard of one leaking or exploding. The complexity of the home-built plumbing seems more risky in comparison.But if I were to put a large bottle outside then I would use a regulator like Alec does to reduce the pressure at the bottle and before it enters the hull or any valves/ tubing.Keep it simple... Greg C From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in the "Oxygen Hackers Companion", you will? note that the author says "Stainless steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..."? "CGA?specifies that valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS.?NASA has researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and?does not reject SS exclusively.? ? I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings for all my O2 service on my boat .? If you O2 clean the systems and use approved O2 lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the "fuel" leg of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source).? If you are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow transfer rates of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level. I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves and replace them with brass.? In my mind there is certain level of risk associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like risk level?97?out of 100!? Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks?can get, I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft tubing and fittings than the combustion issues sited?above. I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 Vancouver Psub convention in Phil's shop.?All tubing and valves I could see where SS. Cliff On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen Hackers Companion... Best, Alec -----------------For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP O2.? .. blah, blah.. When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi!? .. blah, blah.. The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway combustion.------------------ On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hmmm, you guys have me worried now.? I have a regular steel penetrator for HP O2, ?what am I missing.? If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then why the special bronze?? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze.? I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up.? Gamma just had a steel penetrator for HP ?O2 as well.Hank On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian I?just made it as per the plans.? It fits through a stainless?insert welded into the hull.???I hadnt put the threads on in this pic.? Have a look at the drawing, you can see where they will go.? one each end for the valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in.? probably makes it look longer than it is.?I didn't have an issue getting the material.? I just ordered from a standard metal supplier in UK.? ?Was quite expensive though.?? On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,? ?that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be so long?? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze"? I have a piece of bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 Hi Brian I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside.? Pic here of the bronze through hull.? Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve fittings.? The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications.? I like it to be super safe. http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec,? ?So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP? O2 coming into the > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > bronze thru hull fitting ?? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a needle > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec,? ? ? ? ?When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > Brian C > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull and on > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, except > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several times > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite particular > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure gauges > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did my > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > purchased O2 clean. > > > Thanks, > > Alec > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hank, > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is there > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior tank, > 02 or air? > > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has? external O2 with a HP > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > medical O2 regulator? mounted directly? to that penetrator.? There is no > internal HP O2 line.? I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > before the hull.? Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > I first got it. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > Thanks > > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Cliff, > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Yes I like it,? Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > scrubber wrong you die! > > Cliff > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Some great thoughts thanks. > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule > size) > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction.? There is the amount of coffee > grind > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this > would > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > the water to flow through the grind > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan > & the flow > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is > dictated > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & during > the day. > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > balance if > you want it perfect! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > things they would be- > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > air through which lowers pressure. > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance > depending on scrubber design. > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > Greg C > ______________________________ __ > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles rg> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion rg> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work the > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions.? The first > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow throws > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > fan/blower associated with the scrubber.? Engineers make a distinction on > equipment used to compress air.? They define a parameter known as the > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather > than gage pressure.? If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, they > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > blower.? What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like you > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through the > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting flowrate > is very low.? In this case they are not operating anywhere near their best > efficiency point (BEP).? What I found worked better were squirrel cage > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with > more head.? I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24.? This blower > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 > amps.? If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time.? Back to the > goldilocks rule;? to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which is > 72 hours on the backup battery.? The current during this period is known as > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons.? When I tested axial PC fans, they > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much > current and? would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.? The Papst, model > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be? perfect with enough head > to circulated? the cabin air? to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.? This blower did not let me meet > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close.? Below is a graph of hotel load > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat.? You can see from > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps > over the 69 hours.? This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > that I had designed around.? I need to go back and look at the contributors > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce.? I am happy with the 69 hours > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery.? For > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM? 100 Ah battery.? If you > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > . > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec, > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.? If > it works, straight flow fan. > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 21:00:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 11:00:43 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <665453076.86665.1493335212357@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170427085123.841F051E@m0087795.ppops.net> <41494646.6177678.1493310496200@mail.yahoo.com> <665453076.86665.1493335212357@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi all, You probably don't need to worry quite so much about metals for oxygen - cleaning (and paranoia about keeping clean) is the most important. My background is an engineer designing oxygen and other high pressure gas systems, and now SCUBA systems, so I can tell you from my industry experience: - Even the most oxygen compatible rubbers and plastics are far more likely to ignite than SS, so are inevitably the weak point in your system. Igniting a solid SS fitting or tubing section is a bit like trying to set a hardwood log on fire with a match - you've got to try pretty hard. - SS is commonly used in oxygen systems to 300bar (tubing, etc.) all across industry, including in some scary high-velocity applications. - It's copper alloys (brass, bronze, copper) that are most commonly available in useful components and essentially don't burn in oxygen. Copper tubing with brass compression fittings is the easiest way to plumb HP oxygen if you really want to avoid SS, but the grades used have dubious compatibility with seawater. I think this is why the K250 plans call for phosphor bronze. There is stuff like monel and tungum, but you are likely to pay a premium well outside a homebuilder budget. - Good cleaning (including blowing out any newly installed stuff to get rid of particles) and operating techniques (minimising velocity) are the best way - I've never seen anybody worry about runaway combustion of SS parts (and on the reports I've seen of ignition, the tube wall burns through, releases the pressure, and the fire stops there), but if you put a brass/bronze fitting mid-way through a SS line, that will stop fire spreading along. I think this is way overkill though, and have never seen anyone bother to do it. - Where there is minimal possibility of particle generation and impingement, less-compatible materials are ok. Ie. steel and aluminium SCUBA/industrial gas cylinders. In SCUBA, aluminium is preferred because it's less prone to rust. The valve is the bit where high velocity and impingement can occur, and it's brass, and often it (or the regulator) has a brass filter. - To improve corrosion resistance of brass/copper alloys (ie. most SCUBA valves & regulators), they are chrome plated - this doesn't really impact oxygen compatibility. Hopefully that helps. The hardest bit in engineering is knowing what NOT to worry about! Cheers, Steve On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 9:20 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I prefer to carry a few small O2 bottles in the sub (even though it is not > to ABS standards). I've never seen or heard of one leaking or exploding. > The complexity of the home-built plumbing seems more risky in comparison. > But if I were to put a large bottle outside then I would use a regulator > like Alec does to reduce the pressure at the bottle and before it enters > the hull or any valves/ tubing. > Keep it simple... > > Greg C > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2017 6:39 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in the > "Oxygen Hackers Companion", you will note that the author says "Stainless > steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..." "CGA specifies that > valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS. NASA has > researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and does not reject SS > exclusively. > > I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings for all > my O2 service on my boat . If you O2 clean the systems and use approved O2 > lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the "fuel" leg > of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source). If you > are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow transfer rates > of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk > associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level. > > I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves and > replace them with brass. In my mind there is certain level of risk > associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like risk > level 97 out of 100! Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks can get, > I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft tubing and > fittings than the combustion issues sited above. > > I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 Vancouver Psub > convention in Phil's shop. All tubing and valves I could see where SS. > > Cliff > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen > Hackers Companion... > > Best, > > Alec > > ----------------- > For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to > HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. > Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of > safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating > - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made > of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of > combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely > out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel > is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a > cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so > readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere > in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is > not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often > rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 > psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't > any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. > It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP > O2. > > .. blah, blah.. > > When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen > necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is > light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). > Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, > mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi! > > .. blah, blah.. > > The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal > parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, > one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that > resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway > combustion. > ------------------ > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. I have a regular steel penetrator for > HP O2, what am I missing. If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then > why the special bronze? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze. > I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. Gamma just > had a steel penetrator for HP O2 as well. > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi Brian > > I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless insert > welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. Have a > look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end for the > valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in. > probably makes it look longer than it is. > > I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from a > standard metal supplier in UK. > ?Was quite expensive though. > > > > On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles rg > wrote: > > James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be > so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece of > bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 > > Hi Brian > I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through > hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve > fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. > Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) > tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I > like it to be super safe. > > http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm > > > On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the > > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a > needle > > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull > and on > > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, > except > > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several > times > > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite > particular > > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure > gauges > > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did > my > > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > > purchased O2 clean. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Hank, > > > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is > there > > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior > tank, > > 02 or air? > > > > Rick > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Rick, > > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a > HP > > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve > with > > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 > pressure > > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 > when > > I first got it. > > Hank > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs > for > > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a > response > > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at > stage. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rick > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Cliff, > > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your > DIY > > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > > scrubber wrong you die! > > > > Cliff > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Some great thoughts thanks. > > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( > granule > > size) > > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of > coffee > > grind > > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber > this > > would > > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take > for > > the water to flow through the grind > > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous > factors > > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the > fan > > & the flow > > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this > is > > dictated > > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & > during > > the day. > > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > > balance if > > you want it perfect! > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Cliff, > > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > > things they would be- > > > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > > air through which lowers pressure. > > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor > performance > > depending on scrubber design. > > > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over > duration > > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during > an > > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the > old > > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > > > Greg C > > ______________________________ __ > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > rg> > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > rg> > > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work > the > > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The > first > > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow > throws > > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > > fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction on > > equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the > > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure > rather > > than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, > they > > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > > blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like > you > > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through > the > > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting > flowrate > > is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their > best > > efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage > > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but > with > > more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers > that > > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This > blower > > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to > 0.31 > > amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to > the > > goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your > life > > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which > is > > 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is known > as > > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they > > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome > the > > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my > case. > > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being > able > > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm > (1/2%). > > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the > unit > > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way > much > > current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model > > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough > head > > to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 > ppm > > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me > meet > > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel > load > > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup > battery > > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see > from > > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was > exhausted. > > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 > amps > > over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > > that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the > contributors > > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours > > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For > > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you > > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > > . > > > > > > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer > > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very > little > > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much > better > > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alec, > > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, > used to > > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the > > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If > > it works, straight flow fan. > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 21:12:54 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:12:54 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <20170427085123.841F051E@m0087795.ppops.net> <41494646.6177678.1493310496200@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, for sure, I use SS too. But I did use brass for the initial run from cylinder to regulator. The book is not conclusive, it leaves both options open and claims brass is the safer choice IF you can get appropriate components. On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in the > "Oxygen Hackers Companion", you will note that the author says "Stainless > steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..." "CGA specifies that > valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS. NASA has > researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and does not reject SS > exclusively. > > I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings for all > my O2 service on my boat . If you O2 clean the systems and use approved O2 > lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the "fuel" leg > of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source). If you > are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow transfer rates > of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk > associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level. > > I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves and > replace them with brass. In my mind there is certain level of risk > associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like risk > level 97 out of 100! Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks can get, > I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft tubing and > fittings than the combustion issues sited above. > > I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 Vancouver Psub > convention in Phil's shop. All tubing and valves I could see where SS. > > Cliff > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen >> Hackers Companion... >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> ----------------- >> For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to >> HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. >> Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of >> safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating >> - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made >> of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of >> combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely >> out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel >> is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a >> cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so >> readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere >> in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is >> not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often >> rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 >> psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't >> any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. >> It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP >> O2. >> >> .. blah, blah.. >> >> When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen >> necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is >> light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). >> Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, >> mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi! >> >> .. blah, blah.. >> >> The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal >> parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, >> one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that >> resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway >> combustion. >> ------------------ >> >> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. I have a regular steel penetrator >>> for HP O2, what am I missing. If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe >>> then why the special bronze? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not >>> bronze. I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. >>> Gamma just had a steel penetrator for HP O2 as well. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Brian >>> >>> I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless insert >>> welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. Have a >>> look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end for the >>> valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in. >>> probably makes it look longer than it is. >>> >>> I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from a >>> standard metal supplier in UK. >>> ?Was quite expensive though. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to >>> be so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece of >>> bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org >>> wrote: >>> >>> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >> org > >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> org > >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >>> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 >>> >>> Hi Brian >>> I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through >>> hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve >>> fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. >>> Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) >>> tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I >>> like it to be super safe. >>> >>> http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm >>> >>> >>> On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >>> > >>> wrote: >>> > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into >>> the >>> > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a >>> > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a >>> needle >>> > valve type) and then to my flow meter. >>> > >>> > Brian C >>> > >>> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> org > >>> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> > > >>> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >>> > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 >>> > >>> > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a >>> material >>> > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're >>> > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > >>> > Alec >>> > >>> > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >>> > > >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have >>> to >>> > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? >>> > >>> > Brian C >>> > >>> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> org > >>> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> > > >>> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >>> > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 >>> > >>> > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one >>> O2 >>> > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull >>> and on >>> > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, >>> except >>> > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one >>> > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several >>> times >>> > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite >>> particular >>> > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure >>> gauges >>> > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I >>> did my >>> > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion >>> > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) >>> were >>> > purchased O2 clean. >>> > >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > >>> > Alec >>> > >>> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >>> > > >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Hank, >>> > >>> > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be >>> > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any >>> HP >>> > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is >>> there >>> > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior >>> tank, >>> > 02 or air? >>> > >>> > Rick >>> > >>> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >>> > > >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Rick, >>> > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with >>> a HP >>> > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve >>> with >>> > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is >>> no >>> > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 >>> pressure >>> > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 >>> when >>> > I first got it. >>> > Hank >>> > >>> > >>> > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via >>> Personal_Submersibles >>> > > >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs >>> for >>> > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a >>> response >>> > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. >>> > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of >>> > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from >>> > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at >>> stage. >>> > >>> > Thanks >>> > >>> > Rick >>> > >>> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> > > >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Cliff, >>> > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. >>> > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that >>> > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. >>> > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. >>> > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately >>> I'll >>> > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to >>> > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. >>> > Cheers Alan >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPad >>> > >>> > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get >>> your DIY >>> > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 >>> > scrubber wrong you die! >>> > >>> > Cliff >>> > >>> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Some great thoughts thanks. >>> > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! >>> > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( >>> granule >>> > size) >>> > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of >>> coffee >>> > grind >>> > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the >>> scrubber this >>> > would >>> > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the >>> speed >>> > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the >>> > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should >>> take for >>> > the water to flow through the grind >>> > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous >>> factors >>> > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by >>> the fan >>> > & the flow >>> > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & >>> this is >>> > dictated >>> > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. >>> > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & >>> during >>> > the day. >>> > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to >>> > balance if >>> > you want it perfect! >>> > Alan >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPad >>> > >>> > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi Cliff, >>> > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple >>> of >>> > things they would be- >>> > >>> > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. >>> > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher >>> > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to >>> drawing >>> > air through which lowers pressure. >>> > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose >>> > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. >>> > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor >>> performance >>> > depending on scrubber design. >>> > >>> > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow >>> sufficient >>> > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over >>> duration >>> > of dive (especially in an emergency). >>> > >>> > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The >>> lungs >>> > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear >>> > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. >>> > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather >>> > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub >>> during an >>> > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the >>> old >>> > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. >>> > >>> > Greg C >>> > ______________________________ __ >>> > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >>> >> > rg> >>> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >> > rg> >>> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM >>> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay >>> > >>> > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some >>> work the >>> > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The >>> first >>> > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow >>> throws >>> > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for >>> > fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction >>> on >>> > equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the >>> > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by >>> the >>> > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure >>> rather >>> > than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, >>> they >>> > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it >>> > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is >>> a >>> > blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans >>> like you >>> > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for >>> high >>> > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through >>> the >>> > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting >>> flowrate >>> > is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their >>> best >>> > efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage >>> > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans >>> but with >>> > more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers >>> that >>> > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This >>> blower >>> > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to >>> 0.31 >>> > amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back >>> to the >>> > goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your >>> life >>> > support system will operate through the the emergency time period >>> which is >>> > 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is >>> known as >>> > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, >>> they >>> > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current >>> but >>> > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to >>> overcome the >>> > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my >>> case. >>> > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being >>> able >>> > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm >>> (1/2%). >>> > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the >>> unit >>> > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way >>> much >>> > current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, >>> model >>> > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough >>> head >>> > to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below >>> 2000 ppm >>> > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me >>> meet >>> > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of >>> hotel load >>> > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup >>> battery >>> > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see >>> from >>> > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was >>> exhausted. >>> > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to >>> 1.7 amps >>> > over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 >>> amps >>> > that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the >>> contributors >>> > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 >>> hours >>> > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to >>> > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For >>> > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If >>> you >>> > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of >>> > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. >>> > . >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Cliff >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi Brian, >>> > >>> > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a >>> computer >>> > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this >>> purpose. I >>> > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very >>> little >>> > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much >>> better >>> > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > >>> > Alec >>> > >>> > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Alec, >>> > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, >>> used to >>> > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from >>> the >>> > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the >>> middle. If >>> > it works, straight flow fan. >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> > >>> > ______________________________ _________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 22:37:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 22:37:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <20170427192717.841C7C3D@m0087797.ppops.net> References: <20170427192717.841C7C3D@m0087797.ppops.net> Message-ID: They're designed for full pressure On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 10:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Also , are those flow meters designed for low incoming pressure? or can > they deal with any pressure? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:36:51 -0500 > > Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in the > "Oxygen Hackers Companion", you will note that the author says "Stainless > steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..." "CGA specifies that > valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS. NASA has > researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and does not reject SS > exclusively. > > I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings for all > my O2 service on my boat . If you O2 clean the systems and use approved O2 > lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the "fuel" leg > of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source). If you > are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow transfer rates > of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk > associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level. > > I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves and > replace them with brass. In my mind there is certain level of risk > associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like risk > level 97 out of 100! Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks can get, > I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft tubing and > fittings than the combustion issues sited above. > > I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 Vancouver Psub > convention in Phil's shop. All tubing and valves I could see where SS. > > Cliff > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen > Hackers Companion... > > Best, > > Alec > > ----------------- > For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to > HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. > Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of > safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating > - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made > of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of > combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely > out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel > is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a > cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so > readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere > in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is > not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often > rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 > psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't > any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. > It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP > O2. > > .. blah, blah.. > > When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen > necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is > light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). > Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, > mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi! > > .. blah, blah.. > > The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal > parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, > one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that > resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway > combustion. > ------------------ > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. I have a regular steel penetrator for > HP O2, what am I missing. If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then > why the special bronze? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze. > I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. Gamma just > had a steel penetrator for HP O2 as well. > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Brian > > I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless insert > welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. Have a > look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end for the > valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in. > probably makes it look longer than it is. > > I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from a > standard metal supplier in UK. > ?Was quite expensive though. > > > > On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be > so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece of > bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 > > Hi Brian > I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through > hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve > fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. > Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) > tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I > like it to be super safe. > > http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm > > > On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the > > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a > needle > > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull > and on > > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, > except > > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several > times > > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite > particular > > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure > gauges > > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did > my > > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > > purchased O2 clean. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Hank, > > > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is > there > > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior > tank, > > 02 or air? > > > > Rick > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Rick, > > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a > HP > > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve > with > > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 > pressure > > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 > when > > I first got it. > > Hank > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs > for > > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a > response > > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at > stage. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rick > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Cliff, > > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your > DIY > > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > > scrubber wrong you die! > > > > Cliff > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Some great thoughts thanks. > > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( > granule > > size) > > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of > coffee > > grind > > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber > this > > would > > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take > for > > the water to flow through the grind > > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous > factors > > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the > fan > > & the flow > > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this > is > > dictated > > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & > during > > the day. > > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > > balance if > > you want it perfect! > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Cliff, > > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > > things they would be- > > > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > > air through which lowers pressure. > > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor > performance > > depending on scrubber design. > > > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over > duration > > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during > an > > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the > old > > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > > > Greg C > > ______________________________ __ > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > rg> > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > rg> > > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work > the > > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The > first > > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow > throws > > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > > fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction on > > equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the > > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure > rather > > than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, > they > > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > > blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like > you > > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through > the > > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting > flowrate > > is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their > best > > efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage > > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but > with > > more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers > that > > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This > blower > > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to > 0.31 > > amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to > the > > goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your > life > > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which > is > > 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is known > as > > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they > > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome > the > > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my > case. > > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being > able > > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm > (1/2%). > > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the > unit > > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way > much > > current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model > > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough > head > > to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 > ppm > > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me > meet > > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel > load > > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup > battery > > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see > from > > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was > exhausted. > > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 > amps > > over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > > that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the > contributors > > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours > > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For > > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you > > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > > . > > > > > > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer > > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very > little > > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much > better > > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alec, > > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, > used to > > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the > > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If > > it works, straight flow fan. > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > --f403045da082e939e9054e2d97ea--_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 27 22:46:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:46:52 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <20170427192552.841C7C2E@m0087797.ppops.net> References: <20170427192552.841C7C2E@m0087797.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, the diagram below shows the arrangement I have for life support. I bring HP (2000 psi) O2 into the Air Management Oxygen Control (AMOC) unit. The AMOC unit has a pressure reducing regulator that drops the pressure to about 10 psig. The O2 this passes into a O2 mass meter/controller when in Automatic mode or through an adjustable needle valve in manual mode. There a manual O2 variable area, float meter to see O2 rate in SLM. A PLC talks to the AMOC unit to control O2 supplied into the cabin. Also in the AMOC box are all the life support sensors, CO2 concentration, O2 concentration, Relative Humidity, O2 tank pressure, O2 makeup rate, Cabin temperature and Cabin pressure. When O2 concentration drops below 18%, PLC tells the controller to open and deliver O2 at a rate of 4 SLM. When the O2 concentration reaches 23% the PLC turns off the controller. This cycle is repeat every 30 - 60 minutes depending on the pilot. Cliff [image: Inline image 1] [image: Inline image 2] On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, Do you reduce your incoming O2 with a regulator off the O2 > bottle? Then come in with lower pressure into the cabin? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:36:51 -0500 > > Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in the > "Oxygen Hackers Companion", you will note that the author says "Stainless > steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..." "CGA specifies that > valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS. NASA has > researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and does not reject SS > exclusively. > > I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings for all > my O2 service on my boat . If you O2 clean the systems and use approved O2 > lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the "fuel" leg > of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source). If you > are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow transfer rates > of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk > associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level. > > I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves and > replace them with brass. In my mind there is certain level of risk > associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like risk > level 97 out of 100! Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks can get, > I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft tubing and > fittings than the combustion issues sited above. > > I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 Vancouver Psub > convention in Phil's shop. All tubing and valves I could see where SS. > > Cliff > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen > Hackers Companion... > > Best, > > Alec > > ----------------- > For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to > HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. > Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of > safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating > - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made > of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of > combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely > out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel > is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a > cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so > readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere > in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is > not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often > rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 > psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't > any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. > It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP > O2. > > .. blah, blah.. > > When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen > necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is > light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). > Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, > mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi! > > .. blah, blah.. > > The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal > parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, > one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that > resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway > combustion. > ------------------ > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. I have a regular steel penetrator for > HP O2, what am I missing. If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then > why the special bronze? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze. > I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. Gamma just > had a steel penetrator for HP O2 as well. > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Brian > > I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless insert > welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. Have a > look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end for the > valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in. > probably makes it look longer than it is. > > I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from a > standard metal supplier in UK. > ?Was quite expensive though. > > > > On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be > so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece of > bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 > > Hi Brian > I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through > hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve > fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. > Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) > tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I > like it to be super safe. > > http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm > > > On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the > > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a > needle > > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull > and on > > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, > except > > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several > times > > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite > particular > > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure > gauges > > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did > my > > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > > purchased O2 clean. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Hank, > > > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is > there > > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior > tank, > > 02 or air? > > > > Rick > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Rick, > > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a > HP > > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve > with > > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 > pressure > > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 > when > > I first got it. > > Hank > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs > for > > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a > response > > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at > stage. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rick > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > > > wrote: > > > > Cliff, > > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your > DIY > > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > > scrubber wrong you die! > > > > Cliff > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Some great thoughts thanks. > > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( > granule > > size) > > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of > coffee > > grind > > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber > this > > would > > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take > for > > the water to flow through the grind > > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous > factors > > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the > fan > > & the flow > > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this > is > > dictated > > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & > during > > the day. > > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > > balance if > > you want it perfect! > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Cliff, > > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > > things they would be- > > > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > > air through which lowers pressure. > > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor > performance > > depending on scrubber design. > > > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over > duration > > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during > an > > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the > old > > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > > > Greg C > > ______________________________ __ > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > rg> > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > rg> > > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work > the > > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The > first > > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow > throws > > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > > fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction on > > equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the > > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure > rather > > than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, > they > > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > > blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like > you > > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through > the > > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting > flowrate > > is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their > best > > efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage > > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but > with > > more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers > that > > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This > blower > > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to > 0.31 > > amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to > the > > goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your > life > > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which > is > > 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is known > as > > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they > > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome > the > > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my > case. > > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being > able > > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm > (1/2%). > > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the > unit > > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way > much > > current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model > > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough > head > > to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 > ppm > > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me > meet > > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel > load > > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup > battery > > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see > from > > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was > exhausted. > > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 > amps > > over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > > that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the > contributors > > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours > > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For > > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you > > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > > . > > > > > > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a > computer > > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very > little > > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much > better > > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alec, > > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, > used to > > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from > the > > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. > If > > it works, straight flow fan. > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > --f403045da082e939e9054e2d97ea--_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 191456 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 28 05:08:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 09:08:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OXYGEN HAZARDS References: <29191531.272960.1493370494886.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <29191531.272960.1493370494886@mail.yahoo.com> I have copied?a link to?a?pdf that I thought was good.In the list of?sources of ignition?it's quoting a new one to me, which is staticelectricity through flow across certain valve seat materials!http://www.documentation.emersonprocess.com/groups/public/documents/bulletins/d100071x012.pdfAlan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 28 06:48:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 11:48:10 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <20170427192552.841C7C2E@m0087797.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi All I used the "Tungem" tubing because that's what I was advised by the company I got all my 02 stuff from. They make all sorts of things for diving\subs\diving bells etc. Page 42 on this catalogue. I cant remember how much it was, but I don't think it was that expensive, also doesn't seem as soft as brass, somewhere in the middle. http://www.undersea.uk.com/catalogue/catalogue.pdf On 28 April 2017 at 03:46, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Brian, the diagram below shows the arrangement I have for life support. I > bring HP (2000 psi) O2 into the Air Management Oxygen Control (AMOC) unit. > The AMOC unit has a pressure reducing regulator that drops the pressure to > about 10 psig. The O2 this passes into a O2 mass meter/controller when in > Automatic mode or through an adjustable needle valve in manual mode. There > a manual O2 variable area, float meter to see O2 rate in SLM. A PLC talks > to the AMOC unit to control O2 supplied into the cabin. Also in the AMOC > box are all the life support sensors, CO2 concentration, O2 concentration, > Relative Humidity, O2 tank pressure, O2 makeup rate, Cabin temperature and > Cabin pressure. When O2 concentration drops below 18%, PLC tells the > controller to open and deliver O2 at a rate of 4 SLM. When the O2 > concentration reaches 23% the PLC turns off the controller. This cycle is > repeat every 30 - 60 minutes depending on the pilot. > > Cliff > > [image: Inline image 1] > > [image: Inline image 2] > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Cliff, Do you reduce your incoming O2 with a regulator off the O2 >> bottle? Then come in with lower pressure into the cabin? >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:36:51 -0500 >> >> Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in the >> "Oxygen Hackers Companion", you will note that the author says "Stainless >> steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..." "CGA specifies that >> valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS. NASA has >> researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and does not reject SS >> exclusively. >> >> I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings for all >> my O2 service on my boat . If you O2 clean the systems and use approved O2 >> lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the "fuel" leg >> of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source). If you >> are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow transfer rates >> of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk >> associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level. >> >> I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves and >> replace them with brass. In my mind there is certain level of risk >> associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like risk >> level 97 out of 100! Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks can get, >> I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft tubing and >> fittings than the combustion issues sited above. >> >> I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 Vancouver Psub >> convention in Phil's shop. All tubing and valves I could see where SS. >> >> Cliff >> >> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen >> Hackers Companion... >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> ----------------- >> For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to >> HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. >> Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of >> safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating >> - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made >> of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of >> combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely >> out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel >> is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a >> cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so >> readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere >> in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is >> not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often >> rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 >> psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't >> any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. >> It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP >> O2. >> >> .. blah, blah.. >> >> When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen >> necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is >> light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). >> Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, >> mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi! >> >> .. blah, blah.. >> >> The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal >> parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, >> one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that >> resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway >> combustion. >> ------------------ >> >> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. I have a regular steel penetrator >> for HP O2, what am I missing. If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe >> then why the special bronze? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not >> bronze. I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. >> Gamma just had a steel penetrator for HP O2 as well. >> Hank >> >> >> On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Brian >> >> I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless insert >> welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. Have a >> look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end for the >> valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in. >> probably makes it look longer than it is. >> >> I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from a >> standard metal supplier in UK. >> ?Was quite expensive though. >> >> >> >> On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be >> so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece of >> bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org >> wrote: >> >> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > org > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > org > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 >> >> Hi Brian >> I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through >> hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve >> fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. >> Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) >> tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I >> like it to be super safe. >> >> http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm >> >> >> On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> > >> wrote: >> > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the >> > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a >> > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a >> needle >> > valve type) and then to my flow meter. >> > >> > Brian C >> > >> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org >> wrote: >> > >> > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > org > >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >> > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 >> > >> > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a >> material >> > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're >> > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Alec >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have >> to >> > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? >> > >> > Brian C >> > >> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org >> wrote: >> > >> > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > org > >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >> > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 >> > >> > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 >> > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull >> and on >> > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, >> except >> > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one >> > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several >> times >> > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite >> particular >> > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure >> gauges >> > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I >> did my >> > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion >> > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were >> > purchased O2 clean. >> > >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Alec >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > Hank, >> > >> > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be >> > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any >> HP >> > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is >> there >> > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior >> tank, >> > 02 or air? >> > >> > Rick >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > Rick, >> > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a >> HP >> > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve >> with >> > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no >> > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 >> pressure >> > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 >> when >> > I first got it. >> > Hank >> > >> > >> > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs >> for >> > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a >> response >> > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. >> > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of >> > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from >> > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at >> stage. >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > Rick >> > >> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > Cliff, >> > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. >> > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that >> > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. >> > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. >> > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll >> > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to >> > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. >> > Cheers Alan >> > >> > Sent from my iPad >> > >> > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get >> your DIY >> > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 >> > scrubber wrong you die! >> > >> > Cliff >> > >> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Some great thoughts thanks. >> > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! >> > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( >> granule >> > size) >> > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of >> coffee >> > grind >> > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber >> this >> > would >> > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed >> > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the >> > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take >> for >> > the water to flow through the grind >> > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous >> factors >> > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the >> fan >> > & the flow >> > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & >> this is >> > dictated >> > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. >> > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & >> during >> > the day. >> > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to >> > balance if >> > you want it perfect! >> > Alan >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Sent from my iPad >> > >> > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Cliff, >> > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple >> of >> > things they would be- >> > >> > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. >> > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher >> > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to >> drawing >> > air through which lowers pressure. >> > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose >> > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. >> > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor >> performance >> > depending on scrubber design. >> > >> > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow >> sufficient >> > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over >> duration >> > of dive (especially in an emergency). >> > >> > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The >> lungs >> > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear >> > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. >> > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather >> > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub >> during an >> > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the >> old >> > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. >> > >> > Greg C >> > ______________________________ __ >> > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> > > rg> >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > > rg> >> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay >> > >> > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work >> the >> > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The >> first >> > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow >> throws >> > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for >> > fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction >> on >> > equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the >> > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the >> > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure >> rather >> > than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, >> they >> > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it >> > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a >> > blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans >> like you >> > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high >> > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through >> the >> > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting >> flowrate >> > is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their >> best >> > efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage >> > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but >> with >> > more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers >> that >> > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This >> blower >> > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to >> 0.31 >> > amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back >> to the >> > goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your >> life >> > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which >> is >> > 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is >> known as >> > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they >> > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but >> > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to >> overcome the >> > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my >> case. >> > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being >> able >> > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm >> (1/2%). >> > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the >> unit >> > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way >> much >> > current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, >> model >> > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough >> head >> > to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below >> 2000 ppm >> > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me >> meet >> > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel >> load >> > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup >> battery >> > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see >> from >> > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was >> exhausted. >> > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 >> amps >> > over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 >> amps >> > that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the >> contributors >> > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 >> hours >> > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to >> > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For >> > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If >> you >> > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of >> > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. >> > . >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Cliff >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Brian, >> > >> > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a >> computer >> > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. >> I >> > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very >> little >> > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much >> better >> > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Alec >> > >> > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Alec, >> > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, >> used to >> > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from >> the >> > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. >> If >> > it works, straight flow fan. >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles >> > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles >> > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> > ______________________________ _________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> > >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> --f403045da082e939e9054e2d97ea--_______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31536 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 191456 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 28 10:04:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 07:04:06 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers Message-ID: <20170428070406.841E05DF@m0087794.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 191456 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31536 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 28 11:57:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 10:57:24 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: <20170428070406.841E05DF@m0087794.ppops.net> References: <20170428070406.841E05DF@m0087794.ppops.net> Message-ID: <362462E4-C302-4E93-AE19-DD41B6D7848D@gmail.com> Yes Sent from my iPad > On Apr 28, 2017, at 9:04 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Very nice Cliff ! Is the reduction to 10 psi because the requirements of that particular controller? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:46:52 -0500 > > Brian, the diagram below shows the arrangement I have for life support. I bring HP (2000 psi) O2 into the Air Management Oxygen Control (AMOC) unit. The AMOC unit has a pressure reducing regulator that drops the pressure to about 10 psig. The O2 this passes into a O2 mass meter/controller when in Automatic mode or through an adjustable needle valve in manual mode. There a manual O2 variable area, float meter to see O2 rate in SLM. A PLC talks to the AMOC unit to control O2 supplied into the cabin. Also in the AMOC box are all the life support sensors, CO2 concentration, O2 concentration, Relative Humidity, O2 tank pressure, O2 makeup rate, Cabin temperature and Cabin pressure. When O2 concentration drops below 18%, PLC tells the controller to open and deliver O2 at a rate of 4 SLM. When the O2 concentration reaches 23% the PLC turns off the controller. This cycle is repeat every 30 - 60 minutes depending on the pilot. > > Cliff > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Cliff, Do you reduce your incoming O2 with a regulator off the O2 bottle? Then come in with lower pressure into the cabin? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:36:51 -0500 > > Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in the "Oxygen Hackers Companion", you will note that the author says "Stainless steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..." "CGA specifies that valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS. NASA has researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and does not reject SS exclusively. > > I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings for all my O2 service on my boat . If you O2 clean the systems and use approved O2 lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the "fuel" leg of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source). If you are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow transfer rates of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level. > > I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves and replace them with brass. In my mind there is certain level of risk associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like risk level 97 out of 100! Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks can get, I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft tubing and fittings than the combustion issues sited above. > > I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 Vancouver Psub convention in Phil's shop. All tubing and valves I could see where SS. > > Cliff > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen Hackers Companion... > > Best, > > Alec > > ----------------- > For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP O2. > > .. blah, blah.. > > When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi! > > .. blah, blah.. > > The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway combustion. > ------------------ > > On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. I have a regular steel penetrator for HP O2, what am I missing. If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then why the special bronze? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze. I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. Gamma just had a steel penetrator for HP O2 as well. > Hank > > > On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Brian > > I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless insert welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. Have a look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end for the valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in. probably makes it look longer than it is. > > I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from a standard metal supplier in UK. <123.jpg> > ?Was quite expensive though. > > > > On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece of bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 > > Hi Brian > I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through > hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve > fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. > Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) > tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I > like it to be super safe. > > http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm > > On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the > > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a > > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a needle > > valve type) and then to my flow meter. > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 > > > > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material > > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're > > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to > > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? > > > > Brian C > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers > > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 > > > > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 > > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull and on > > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, except > > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one > > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several times > > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite particular > > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure gauges > > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did my > > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion > > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were > > purchased O2 clean. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hank, > > > > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be > > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP > > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is there > > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior tank, > > 02 or air? > > > > Rick > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Rick, > > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a HP > > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve with > > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no > > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 pressure > > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 when > > I first got it. > > Hank > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs for > > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a response > > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. > > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of > > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from > > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at stage. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rick > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Cliff, > > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. > > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that > > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. > > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. > > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll > > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to > > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your DIY > > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 > > scrubber wrong you die! > > > > Cliff > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Some great thoughts thanks. > > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! > > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( granule > > size) > > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of coffee > > grind > > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber this > > would > > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed > > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the > > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take for > > the water to flow through the grind > > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous factors > > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the fan > > & the flow > > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this is > > dictated > > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. > > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & during > > the day. > > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to > > balance if > > you want it perfect! > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Cliff, > > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of > > things they would be- > > > > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. > > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher > > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing > > air through which lowers pressure. > > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose > > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. > > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor performance > > depending on scrubber design. > > > > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient > > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over duration > > of dive (especially in an emergency). > > > > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs > > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear > > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media. > > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather > > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during an > > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the old > > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing. > > > > Greg C > > ______________________________ __ > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > rg> > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > rg> > > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay > > > > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work the > > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions. The first > > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow throws > > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for > > fan/blower associated with the scrubber. Engineers make a distinction on > > equipment used to compress air. They define a parameter known as the > > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the > > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure rather > > than gage pressure. If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1, they > > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it > > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a > > blower. What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like you > > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high > > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through the > > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting flowrate > > is very low. In this case they are not operating anywhere near their best > > efficiency point (BEP). What I found worked better were squirrel cage > > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but with > > more head. I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers that > > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24. This blower > > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to 0.31 > > amps. If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time. Back to the > > goldilocks rule; to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your life > > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which is > > 72 hours on the backup battery. The current during this period is known as > > the ?Hotel Load? for obvious reasons. When I tested axial PC fans, they > > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but > > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome the > > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my case. > > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being able > > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm (1/2%). > > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the unit > > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way much > > current and would not last anywhere near the 80 hours. The Papst, model > > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be perfect with enough head > > to circulated the cabin air to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000 ppm > > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps. This blower did not let me meet > > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close. Below is a graph of hotel load > > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup battery > > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat. You can see from > > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was exhausted. > > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7 amps > > over the 69 hours. This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps > > that I had designed around. I need to go back and look at the contributors > > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce. I am happy with the 69 hours > > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to > > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery. For > > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM 100 Ah battery. If you > > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of > > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected. > > . > > > > > > > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a computer > > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I > > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very little > > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much better > > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Alec, > > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart, used to > > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from the > > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle. If > > it works, straight flow fan. > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > --f403045da082e939e9054e2d97ea--_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > --001a114495240fca27054e31166f--_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 29 09:16:35 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 07:16:35 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: 3vx3dV2S2IBJV3vx5drw10 References: <20170427192552.841C7C2E@m0087797.ppops.net> 3vx3dV2S2IBJV3vx5drw10 Message-ID: Cliff, I am curious as to why you are cycling the O2 between the permissible limits, instead of attempting to maintain the environment at 20.9% continuously? The latter control scheme provides some safety margin in that a decrease or rise in O2 level is indicative of a possible problem well before you fall outside of the limits. If you allow a decline to 18% or rise to 23% by design, you're already in alarm if anything goes wrong at either limit. If it is a matter of frequency of valve cycling, perhaps setting control thresholds at something like 19.25 and 21.75 would permit the cyclic control while still allowing some detection and response time before alarming? Sean On April 27, 2017 8:46:52 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Brian, the diagram below shows the arrangement I have for life support. > I >bring HP (2000 psi) O2 into the Air Management Oxygen Control (AMOC) >unit. >The AMOC unit has a pressure reducing regulator that drops the pressure >to >about 10 psig. The O2 this passes into a O2 mass meter/controller when >in >Automatic mode or through an adjustable needle valve in manual mode. >There >a manual O2 variable area, float meter to see O2 rate in SLM. A PLC >talks >to the AMOC unit to control O2 supplied into the cabin. Also in the >AMOC >box are all the life support sensors, CO2 concentration, O2 >concentration, >Relative Humidity, O2 tank pressure, O2 makeup rate, Cabin temperature >and >Cabin pressure. When O2 concentration drops below 18%, PLC tells the >controller to open and deliver O2 at a rate of 4 SLM. When the O2 >concentration reaches 23% the PLC turns off the controller. This cycle >is >repeat every 30 - 60 minutes depending on the pilot. > >Cliff > >[image: Inline image 1] > >[image: Inline image 2] > >On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Cliff, Do you reduce your incoming O2 with a regulator off the O2 >> bottle? Then come in with lower pressure into the cabin? >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:36:51 -0500 >> >> Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in the >> "Oxygen Hackers Companion", you will note that the author says >"Stainless >> steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..." "CGA specifies >that >> valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS. NASA has >> researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and does not reject SS >> exclusively. >> >> I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings for >all >> my O2 service on my boat . If you O2 clean the systems and use >approved O2 >> lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the "fuel" >leg >> of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source). If >you >> are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow transfer >rates >> of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk >> associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level. >> >> I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves and >> replace them with brass. In my mind there is certain level of risk >> associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like >risk >> level 97 out of 100! Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks can >get, >> I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft tubing >and >> fittings than the combustion issues sited above. >> >> I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 Vancouver >Psub >> convention in Phil's shop. All tubing and valves I could see where >SS. >> >> Cliff >> >> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen >> Hackers Companion... >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> ----------------- >> For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it >comes to >> HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) >burn. >> Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure >of >> safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic >heating >> - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses >made >> of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the >chance of >> combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are >definitely >> out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. >Steel >> is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a >> cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks >so >> readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls >somewhere >> in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, >it is >> not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are >often >> rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than >3000 >> psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really >isn't >> any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone >uses it. >> It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for >HP >> O2. >> >> .. blah, blah.. >> >> When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of >oxygen >> necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, >brass is >> light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 >bar). >> Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the >worse, >> mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi! >> >> .. blah, blah.. >> >> The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the >metal >> parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major >conflagration, >> one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts >that >> resist combustion can create a second level of defense against >runaway >> combustion. >> ------------------ >> >> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. I have a regular steel >penetrator for >> HP O2, what am I missing. If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe >then >> why the special bronze? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not >bronze. >> I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. Gamma >just >> had a steel penetrator for HP O2 as well. >> Hank >> >> >> On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Brian >> >> I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless insert >> welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. Have >a >> look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end >for the >> valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it >in. >> probably makes it look longer than it is. >> >> I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from a >> standard metal supplier in UK. >> ?Was quite expensive though. >> >> >> >> On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need >to be >> so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece >of >> bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > >> wrote: >> >> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >> org > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> org > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 >> >> Hi Brian >> I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze >through >> hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve >> fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. >> Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) >> tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I >> like it to be super safe. >> >> http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm >> >> >> On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> > >> wrote: >> > Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming >into the >> > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go >to a >> > bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a >> needle >> > valve type) and then to my flow meter. >> > >> > Brian C >> > >> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > >> wrote: >> > >> > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> org > >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >> > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 >> > >> > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a >material >> > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case >we're >> > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be >fine. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Alec >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you >have to >> > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? >> > >> > Brian C >> > >> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > >> wrote: >> > >> > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> org > >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >> > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 >> > >> > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is >one O2 >> > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the >hull >> and on >> > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same >thing, >> except >> > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and >one >> > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them >several >> times >> > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite >> particular >> > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure >> gauges >> > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. >I did >> my >> > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers >Companion >> > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) >were >> > purchased O2 clean. >> > >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Alec >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via >Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > Hank, >> > >> > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be >> > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be >any HP >> > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. >Is >> there >> > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP >exterior >> tank, >> > 02 or air? >> > >> > Rick >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > Rick, >> > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 >with a >> HP >> > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower >valve >> with >> > medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There >is no >> > internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 >> pressure >> > before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary >O2 >> when >> > I first got it. >> > Hank >> > >> > >> > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via >Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage >regs >> for >> > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a >> response >> > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to >see. >> > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the >outside of >> > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP >from >> > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at >> stage. >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > Rick >> > >> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > Cliff, >> > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. >> > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating >that >> > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. >> > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some >time. >> > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately >I'll >> > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer >to >> > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. >> > Cheers Alan >> > >> > Sent from my iPad >> > >> > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Yes I like it, Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get >your >> DIY >> > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY >CO2 >> > scrubber wrong you die! >> > >> > Cliff >> > >> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Some great thoughts thanks. >> > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! >> > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( >> granule >> > size) >> > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount >of >> coffee >> > grind >> > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the >scrubber >> this >> > would >> > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the >speed >> > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how >the >> > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should >take >> for >> > the water to flow through the grind >> > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous >> factors >> > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by >the >> fan >> > & the flow >> > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & >this >> is >> > dictated >> > by the size of the hull & number of passengers. >> > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day >& >> during >> > the day. >> > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors >to >> > balance if >> > you want it perfect! >> > Alan >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Sent from my iPad >> > >> > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Cliff, >> > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a >couple of >> > things they would be- >> > >> > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects >too. >> > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly >higher >> > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to >drawing >> > air through which lowers pressure. >> > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and >lose >> > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. >> > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor >> performance >> > depending on scrubber design. >> > >> > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow >sufficient >> > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over >> duration >> > of dive (especially in an emergency). >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 29 13:24:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 12:24:42 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: References: <20170427192552.841C7C2E@m0087797.ppops.net> Message-ID: Sean, I misspoke, I went back and looked at my PLC ladder logic and it turns out that I turn on the O2 when the concentration drops below 20% and turn off the controller when it goes above 22%. So the control is between 20-22 not 18-23. Attached is a graph showing the O2 concentration in automatic O2 makeup mode. You can see that the average O2 in the boat when in Automatic O2 makeup mode is about 21%. [image: Inline image 1] You do make a good point about an alternative strategegy which is to use a PID controller with the set point set being 20.9%. I have many spare PID controller loops avaiblle in the PLC cpu so it would be an easy change in implement. Part of the hesidancy to change was that the sytem as designed is working fine. Also it kind of comforting to hear and see the O2 turn on during the makeup cycle. Part of me says '*if it ain't broke don't fix it*', and another part of me likes to tinker. I have some noise around the O2 sensor reading. To implement this signal as part of a PID control loop I would need to do some filtering of the O2 concentration measurement to remove some the noise. In the initial setup of the AMOC unit, I had a O2 solenoid valve where the comptroller now sits. I replaced the O2 makeup solenoid mainly because I wanted to measure the O2 rate and was able to fine a very nice O2 controller / rate sensor on ebay for next to nothing. So right now I am just sending the controller a high and low signal to make it duplicate a solenoid valve on and off but it would work just as well and maybe better in a PID control loop as the control variable. After I get back from the Islamorada trip, I may set up a test of using PID control of O2 makeup just to see how it compares. With the system as now designed. Thanks for the thoughts. On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Cliff, I am curious as to why you are cycling the O2 between the > permissible limits, instead of attempting to maintain the environment at > 20.9% continuously? The latter control scheme provides some safety margin > in that a decrease or rise in O2 level is indicative of a possible problem > well before you fall outside of the limits. If you allow a decline to 18% > or rise to 23% by design, you're already in alarm if anything goes wrong at > either limit. If it is a matter of frequency of valve cycling, perhaps > setting control thresholds at something like 19.25 and 21.75 would permit > the cyclic control while still allowing some detection and response time > before alarming? > > Sean > > > On April 27, 2017 8:46:52 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Brian, the diagram below shows the arrangement I have for life support. I >> bring HP (2000 psi) O2 into the Air Management Oxygen Control (AMOC) unit. >> The AMOC unit has a pressure reducing regulator that drops the pressure to >> about 10 psig. The O2 this passes into a O2 mass meter/controller when in >> Automatic mode or through an adjustable needle valve in manual mode. There >> a manual O2 variable area, float meter to see O2 rate in SLM. A PLC talks >> to the AMOC unit to control O2 supplied into the cabin. Also in the AMOC >> box are all the life support sensors, CO2 concentration, O2 concentration, >> Relative Humidity, O2 tank pressure, O2 makeup rate, Cabin temperature and >> Cabin pressure. When O2 concentration drops below 18%, PLC tells the >> controller to open and deliver O2 at a rate of 4 SLM. When the O2 >> concentration reaches 23% the PLC turns off the controller. This cycle is >> repeat every 30 - 60 m! >> inutes >> depending on the pilot. >> >> Cliff >> >> [image: Inline image 1] >> >> [image: Inline image 2] >> >> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Cliff, Do you reduce your incoming O2 with a regulator off the O2 >>> bottle? Then come in with lower pressure into the cabin? >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >>> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:36:51 -0500 >>> >>> Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in the >>> "Oxygen Hackers Companion", y! >>> ou will >>> note that the author says "Stainless >>> steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..." "CGA specifies that >>> valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS. NASA has >>> researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and does not reject SS >>> exclusively. >>> >>> I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings for all >>> my O2 service on my boat . If you O2 clean the systems and use approved O2 >>> lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the "fuel" leg >>> of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source). If you >>> are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow transfer rates >>> of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk >>> associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level. >>> >>> I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves and >>> replace them with brass. In my mind there is certain level of risk >>> >>> associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like risk >>> level 97 out of 100! Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks can get, >>> I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft tubing and >>> fittings than the combustion issues sited above. >>> >>> I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 Vancouver Psub >>> convention in Phil's shop. All tubing and valves I could see where SS. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen >>> Hackers Companion... >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> ----------------- >>> For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to >>> HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn. >>> Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can! >>> add an >>> extra measure of >>> safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating >>> - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made >>> of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of >>> combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely >>> out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel >>> is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a >>> cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so >>> readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere >>> in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is >>> not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often >>> rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000 >>> psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't >>> ! >>> any >>> affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it. >>> It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP >>> O2. >>> >>> .. blah, blah.. >>> >>> When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen >>> necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is >>> light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar). >>> Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse, >>> mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi! >>> >>> .. blah, blah.. >>> >>> The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal >>> parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration, >>> one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that >>> resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway >>> combustion. >>> ------------------ >>> >>> On >>> Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. I have a regular steel penetrator for >>> HP O2, what am I missing. If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then >>> why the special bronze? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze. >>> I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. Gamma just >>> had a steel penetrator for HP O2 as well. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Brian >>> >>> I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless insert >>> welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. Have a >>> look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end for the >>> valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut ! >>> to hold >>> it in. >>> probably makes it look longer than it is. >>> >>> I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from a >>> standard metal supplier in UK. >>> ?Was quite expensive though. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be >>> so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a piece of >>> bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org >>> wrote: >>> >>> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >> org > >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> org > >>> Subje! >>> ct: Re: >>> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >>> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 >>> >>> Hi Brian >>> I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze through >>> hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve >>> fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. >>> Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) >>> tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I >>> like it to be super safe. >>> >>> http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm >>> >>> >>> On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming into the >>>> cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a >>>> bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a >>>> >>> needle >>> >>>> valve type) and then to my flow meter. >>>> >>>> Brian C >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> >>> org > >>> >>>> To: Personal Submersib! >>>> les >>>> General Discussion >>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 >>>> >>>> I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material >>>> that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're >>>> already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >>>> > >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to >>>> have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? >>>> >>>> Brian C >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs! >>>> . org >>>> >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> >>> org > >>> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >>>> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 >>>> >>>> Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2 >>>> tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull >>>> >>> and on >>> >>>> the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing, >>>> >>> except >>> >>>> two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one >>>> starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several >>>> >>> times >>> >>>> already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite >>>> >>> particular >>> >>>> about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure >>>> >>> gauges >>> >>>> but decided not to install them! >>>> because >>>> they didn't arrive bagged. I did >>>> >>> my >>> >>>> own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion >>>> instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were >>>> purchased O2 clean. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >>>> > >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hank, >>>> >>>> Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be >>>> experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP >>>> plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is >>>> >>> th! >>> ere >>> >>>> anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior >>>> >>> tank, >>> >>>> 02 or air? >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >>>> > >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Rick, >>>> I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has external O2 with a >>>> >>> HP >>> >>>> line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower ! >>>> valve >>>> >>> with >>> >>>> medical O2 regulator mounted directly to that penetrator. There is no >>>> internal HP O2 line. I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2 >>>> >>> pressure >>> >>>> before the hull. Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2 >>>> >>> when >>> >>>> I first got it. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >>>> > >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs >>>> >>> for >>> >>>> an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a >>>> >>> response >>> >>>> so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see. >>>> Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of >>>> there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from >>>> entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at >>>> >>> stage. >>> >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29! >>>> PM, >>>> Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>>> > >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Cliff, >>>> forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z.. >>>> We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that >>>> knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit. >>>> Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time. >>>> Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll >>>> be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to >>>> calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits. >>>> Cheers Alan >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes I like it, P! >>>> sub >>>> Baristas with one small difference, if you get your >>>> >>> DIY >>> >>>> coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2 >>>> scrubber wrong you die! >>>> >>>> Cliff >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Some great thoughts thanks. >>>> This all seems very much like the art of coffee making! >>>> You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind ( >>>> >>> granule >>> >>>> size) >>>> Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction. There is the amount of >>>> >>> coffee >>> >>>> grind >>>> in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber >>>> >>> this >>> >>>> would >>>> have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed >>>> water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the >>>> absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take >>>> >>> for >>> >>>> the water to flow through the grind >>>> to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous >>>> >>> factors >>> >>>> & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the >>>> >>>> fan >>>> >>>>> & the flow >>>>> rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this >>>>> >>>> is >>>> >>>>> dictated >>>>> by the size of the hull & number of passengers. >>>>> Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day & >>>>> >>>> during >>>> >>>>> the day. >>>>> Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to >>>>> balance if >>>>> you want it perfect! >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> wrote! >>>>> : >>>>> >>>>> Hi Cliff, >>>>> Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of >>>>> things they would be- >>>>> >>>>> Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too. >>>>> Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher >>>>> pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing >>>>> air through which lowers pressure. >>>>> However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose >>>>> effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits. >>>>> Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor >>>>> >>>> performance >>>> >>>>> depending on scrubber design. >>>>> >>>>> So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient >>>>> with even distribution all without exceeding available power over >>>>> >>>> dur! >>>> ation >>>> >>>>> of dive (especially in an emergency). >>>> >>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 19193 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 29 15:54:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 13:54:32 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers In-Reply-To: 4W7vdr7SKgvfQ4W7wdosbi References: <20170427192552.841C7C2E@m0087797.ppops.net> 4W7vdr7SKgvfQ4W7wdosbi Message-ID: <37debee9-eab6-4bb6-a5f6-d427e0b0fdb0@email.android.com> Cliff, I'm not sure how PID loops are implemented on your PLC. My experience is predominately with PACs which are a little more versatile, albeit more expensive. In any case, you don't necessarily have to filter your process variable if it is noisy, as long as the center of the noise band is properly representative of the measurement. Another alternative is to apply rate limiting to the PID output. What loop rate does your PID calculate at? For O2 addition, you probably don't need a strongly responsive system. If the existing control is meeting expectations, I wouldn't mess with it. I was just worried that you had no margin for error. Sean On April 29, 2017 11:24:42 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean, I misspoke, I went back and looked at my PLC ladder logic and it >turns out that I turn on the O2 when the concentration drops below 20% >and >turn off the controller when it goes above 22%. So the control is >between >20-22 not 18-23. Attached is a graph showing the O2 concentration in >automatic O2 makeup mode. You can see that the average O2 in the boat >when >in Automatic O2 makeup mode is about 21%. > >[image: Inline image 1] > > >You do make a good point about an alternative strategegy which is to >use a >PID controller with the set point set being 20.9%. I have many spare >PID >controller loops avaiblle in the PLC cpu so it would be an easy change >in >implement. Part of the hesidancy to change was that the sytem as >designed >is working fine. Also it kind of comforting to hear and see the O2 >turn >on during the makeup cycle. Part of me says '*if it ain't broke don't >fix >it*', and another part of me likes to tinker. I have some noise around >the >O2 sensor reading. To implement this signal as part of a PID control >loop >I would need to do some filtering of the O2 concentration measurement >to >remove some the noise. In the initial setup of the AMOC unit, I had a >O2 >solenoid valve where the comptroller now sits. I replaced the O2 >makeup >solenoid mainly because I wanted to measure the O2 rate and was able to >fine a very nice O2 controller / rate sensor on ebay for next to >nothing. >So right now I am just sending the controller a high and low signal to >make >it duplicate a solenoid valve on and off but it would work just as well >and >maybe better in a PID control loop as the control variable. After I >get >back from the Islamorada trip, I may set up a test of using PID control >of >O2 makeup just to see how it compares. With the system as now >designed. > >Thanks for the thoughts. > >On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Cliff, I am curious as to why you are cycling the O2 between the >> permissible limits, instead of attempting to maintain the environment >at >> 20.9% continuously? The latter control scheme provides some safety >margin >> in that a decrease or rise in O2 level is indicative of a possible >problem >> well before you fall outside of the limits. If you allow a decline to >18% >> or rise to 23% by design, you're already in alarm if anything goes >wrong at >> either limit. If it is a matter of frequency of valve cycling, >perhaps >> setting control thresholds at something like 19.25 and 21.75 would >permit >> the cyclic control while still allowing some detection and response >time >> before alarming? >> >> Sean >> >> >> On April 27, 2017 8:46:52 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Brian, the diagram below shows the arrangement I have for life >support. I >>> bring HP (2000 psi) O2 into the Air Management Oxygen Control (AMOC) >unit. >>> The AMOC unit has a pressure reducing regulator that drops the >pressure to >>> about 10 psig. The O2 this passes into a O2 mass meter/controller >when in >>> Automatic mode or through an adjustable needle valve in manual mode. > There >>> a manual O2 variable area, float meter to see O2 rate in SLM. A PLC >talks >>> to the AMOC unit to control O2 supplied into the cabin. Also in the >AMOC >>> box are all the life support sensors, CO2 concentration, O2 >concentration, >>> Relative Humidity, O2 tank pressure, O2 makeup rate, Cabin >temperature and >>> Cabin pressure. When O2 concentration drops below 18%, PLC tells >the >>> controller to open and deliver O2 at a rate of 4 SLM. When the O2 >>> concentration reaches 23% the PLC turns off the controller. This >cycle is >>> repeat every 30 - 60 m! >>> inutes >>> depending on the pilot. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> [image: Inline image 1] >>> >>> [image: Inline image 2] >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >< >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Cliff, Do you reduce your incoming O2 with a regulator off the O2 >>>> bottle? Then come in with lower pressure into the cabin? >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >>>> org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >>>> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:36:51 -0500 >>>> >>>> Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in >the >>>> "Oxygen Hackers Companion", y! >>>> ou will >>>> note that the author says "Stainless >>>> steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..." "CGA specifies >that >>>> valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS. NASA has >>>> researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and does not reject SS >>>> exclusively. >>>> >>>> I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings >for all >>>> my O2 service on my boat . If you O2 clean the systems and use >approved O2 >>>> lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the >"fuel" leg >>>> of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source). >If you >>>> are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow >transfer rates >>>> of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk >>>> associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level. >>>> >>>> I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves >and >>>> replace them with brass. In my mind there is certain level of >risk >>>> >>>> associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like >risk >>>> level 97 out of 100! Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks >can get, >>>> I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft >tubing and >>>> fittings than the combustion issues sited above. >>>> >>>> I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 >Vancouver Psub >>>> convention in Phil's shop. All tubing and valves I could see where >SS. >>>> >>>> Cliff >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the >Oxygen >>>> Hackers Companion... >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> ----------------- >>>> For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it >comes to >>>> HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) >burn. >>>> Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can! >>>> add an >>>> extra measure of >>>> safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of >adiabatic heating >>>> - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on >hoses made >>>> of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the >chance of >>>> combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are >definitely >>>> out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP >O2. Steel >>>> is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever >used a >>>> cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is >sparks so >>>> readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls >somewhere >>>> in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as >steel, it is >>>> not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are >often >>>> rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more >than 3000 >>>> psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there >really isn't >>>> ! >>>> any >>>> affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses >it. >>>> It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is >for HP >>>> O2. >>>> >>>> .. blah, blah.. >>>> >>>> When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of >oxygen >>>> necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, >brass is >>>> light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi >(666 bar). >>>> Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being >the worse, >>>> mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi! >>>> >>>> .. blah, blah.. >>>> >>>> The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the >metal >>>> parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major >conflagration, >>>> one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal >parts that >>>> resist combustion can create a second level of defense against >runaway >>>> combustion. >>>> ------------------ >>>> >>>> On >>>> Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >< >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hmmm, you guys have me worried now. I have a regular steel >penetrator for >>>> HP O2, what am I missing. If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss >pipe then >>>> why the special bronze? I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not >bronze. >>>> I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up. >Gamma just >>>> had a steel penetrator for HP O2 as well. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Brian >>>> >>>> I just made it as per the plans. It fits through a stainless >insert >>>> welded into the hull. I hadnt put the threads on in this pic. >Have a >>>> look at the drawing, you can see where they will go. one each end >for the >>>> valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut ! >>>> to hold >>>> it in. >>>> probably makes it look longer than it is. >>>> >>>> I didn't have an issue getting the material. I just ordered from >a >>>> standard metal supplier in UK. >>>> ?Was quite expensive though. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> James, that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it >need to be >>>> so long? Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze" I have a >piece of >>>> bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade. >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >>>> org > >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> org > >>>> Subje! >>>> ct: Re: >>>> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >>>> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100 >>>> >>>> Hi Brian >>>> I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside. Pic here of the bronze >through >>>> hull. Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my >valve >>>> fittings. The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans. >>>> Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is) >>>> tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications. I >>>> like it to be super safe. >>>> >>>> http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >>>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Alec, So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP O2 coming >into the >>>>> cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then >go to a >>>>> bronze thru hull fitting ? Then a shut off valve on the inside ( >a >>>>> >>>> needle >>>> >>>>> valve type) and then to my flow meter. >>>>> >>>>> Brian C >>>>> >>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> >>>> org > >>>> >>>>> To: Personal Submersib! >>>>> les >>>>> General Discussion >>>>> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >>>>> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400 >>>>> >>>>> I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a >material >>>>> that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case >we're >>>>> already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be >fine. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Alec, When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you >have to >>>>> have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting? >>>>> >>>>> Brian C >>>>> >>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs! >>>>> . org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> >>>> org > >>>> >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers >>>>> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400 >>>>> >>>>> Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is >one O2 >>>>> tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the >hull >>>>> >>>> and on >>>> >>>>> the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same >thing, >>>>> >>>> except >>>> >>>>> two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and >one >>>>> starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them >several >>>>> >>>> times >>>> >>>>> already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite >>>>> >>>> particular >>>> >>>>> about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 >pressure >>>>> >>>> gauges >>>> >>>>> but decided not to install them! >>>>> because >>>>> they didn't arrive bagged. I did >>>>> >>>> my >>>> >>>>> own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers >Companion >>>>> instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st >stage) were >>>>> purchased O2 clean. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via >Personal_Submersibles >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hank, >>>>> >>>>> Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would >be >>>>> experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should >be any HP >>>>> plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my >opinion. Is >>>>> >>>> th! >>>> ere >>>> >>>>> anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP >exterio -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 29 20:42:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 17:42:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] progress report Message-ID: <20170429174247.8432BDBA@m0087796.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: