[PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive

hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Mon Aug 21 08:01:56 EDT 2017


Hi Hugh,I have been bench testing my Honda and taking temperature readings.  I have an area on the engine that hits 150 F  while the rest of the engine is around 110 F  .  That makes me think I need good air circulation for additional cooling as well as for potential gas vapour.  Have you done heat build up testing?  Are you supplementing the air space with additional air circulation beyond the air consumed by the engine? If these details are proprietary, I understand if you don't want to share.Hank

On Monday, August 21, 2017, 5:40:43 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Hi Pete,I have looked  at that idea and it is an option alright.  The problem I want to avoid is getting out of the sub in bad weather and waves.  I have done some experimenting by walking around Gamma to see how it would be to install a motor at sea.  If there are waves, I would get wet.  One option would be to instal a long motor bracket that can hinge up to make it easier. I have even looked at stowing an outboard inside the sub.    I am usually alone and getting out of the sub in waves would be risky.The two lakes I want to spend my time in are very unpredictable.  If I am towing my sub and have 5 miles to go and a storm whips up, it is pretty ugly.I have had that happen when attempting a deep test for Elementary.  I was almost going to drop the sup off and go in without it.  I got caught in a snow blizzard one time doing a deep test on another lake and luckily I was dressed for it but it is not a good situation.  With an engine onboard I can have heat and air-conditioning  and sip on a coffee while I head to shore.  Hank
On Sunday, August 20, 2017, 7:54:19 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Hank,Why not rig a small outboard to Gamma and stash it in the rubber raft when you dive ?
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/20/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive
 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 Date: Sunday, August 20, 2017, 6:56 PM
 
 Hugh,I
 had two options in mind, well actually three.  One was a
 bladder, the other a full pressure rated tank or a
 detachable tank that stores in the inflatable tender that I
 am now towing.   The bladder would be very easy and I have
 an enclosed space for it already.  I also would only need
 about 20 litres.Detaching would probably be the
 most simple.  Inside the sub is not an option at
 all.You have a couple of high power gas engines
 in Q-sub ?  They must be in a pressure compensated
 enclosure.  I tried to find that information today to steal
 an idea or two ;-)   You must also be dealing with
 potential vapours.Hank
 
 On Sunday,
 August 20, 2017, 5:45:35 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via
 Personal_Submersibles
 <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
 
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 #yiv5065617548 Hi Hank,I am a believer of putting the
 fuel outside the vessel in the form of a bladder. 
 100 litres of diesel/petrol would
 weight about 83 and 75 kg resprctively so would be positive
 17 or 25 kg flotation but if inside the vessel would be 83
 kg negative and when empty would be 83 kg of unwanted
 flotation if diesel.  The additional safety of having a
 bladder outside is the biggest consideration.
 Hugh  From: Personal_Submersibles
 [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On
 Behalf Of irox via Personal_Submersibles
 Sent: Monday, 21 August 2017 11:02 AM
 To: Personal Submersibles General
 Discussion
 Subject: Re:
 [PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive  Hi Hank,  one of the key dangers with
 gasoline vapor is that it's heavier than air, so it will
 pool inside the sub (this has not changed with advancements
 in ICE technology).   Even with good ventilation, purging
 the pressure hull of gasoline vapor may be
 tricky.  You could look at converting the
 engine to something which is lighter than air (hydrogen?),
 but this should under go a lot of research/experimentation
 to ensure it's safe.
 
 There has been a lot of discussion of using gas
 engines in sub in the past (bionic dolphin uses gas, but
 this is more enclosed jet skii than submarine), none of
 which seemed yield a safe approach to
 this.  Could you cut open your hull to
 install the engine, then weld it up
 again?  Good luck,  Ian.-----Original Message----- 
 From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles 
 Sent: Aug 20, 2017 3:41 PM 
 To:
 Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive 
 
 
     Alec,Yes it may be to scary, I will
 give it more thought.  I need more range, and my boat will
 not be ready for the spring of 2018.  It is bad enough I
 missed this season ;-(  I need a working submarine with
 reliable range and batteries will not do it.  
  The danger is gas vapour reaching
 an explosive level.  That would mean a leak and no proper
 venting coupled with an ignition source.  Both these risks
 can be managed.  Diesel fuel in a hot enclosed environment
 is not as volatile but still not without risk.  In all
 fairness, you can't compare early antique engines with a
 modern-day Honda.  My options are limited with an 18 inch
 opening.  Hank    On Sunday, August 20, 2017,
 4:21:51 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:    Sorry to be critical, but yes,
 from an historical perspective a gas engine would be a big
 no-no as gas powered subs were death traps prior to the
 adoption of diesel. I always say my subs are at their most
 dangerous in the shop, not in the water. This could be a
 situation where the drained gas engine is not dangerous
 underwater but is dangerous during surface transit. And
 frankly storing the gas outboard sounds like a bit of a
 challenge in itself.  I applaud original solutions, but
 this isn't one that sounds like a good idea, at least to
 me.  Gamma seems to have pretty good
 range on batteries, and I recall you're planning on the
 trailerable landing craft. Would the landing craft not
 obviate the need for an onboard
 ICE?    Cheers,
 Alec  On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 7:50 AM,
 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:Hi All,My diesel engine did not work out
 in the end, and 6 hp I suspect is a bit skinny.   I do have
 a beautiful 15 hp 4 stroke Honda outboard that has been
 converted to run a hydraulic pump inboard.  I converted it
 many years ago to power my sternwheeler but ended up with an
 antique engine. The engine is stripped down to a bare engine
 with external water pump and internal oil cooler.  The
 problem is, it is a gas engine, and that is a big NO NO or
 is it?   If the fuel supply is outside the hull and the
 engine is run out of fuel before a dive, then there is no
 fuel at all inside the sub while it dives.  An engine
 compartment blower fan can constantly circulate air through
 a duct to the outside of the sub.  I know as a rule it is
 considered a bad idea but with careful   installation it
 could be a very nice drive system.  This would be much
 quieter and smoother than a diesel engine.  The Honda would
 be very easy to remove from the escape pod if I need to
 escape.  The Honda 4 stroke is as reliable as even a Yanmar
 diesel.   I was bragging to a Honda mechanic one time that
 the Honda starts with two pulls in the spring.  He said it
 must need a tune up LOL  it should start in one pull.
  Hank
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