From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 1 00:33:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 21:33:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] heads In-Reply-To: R5YrdHWHkSavnR5YsdI2mC References: <1820976408.2606515.1498859966494.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <35c0fd3c-66a4-4a9f-b81b-f0ce0d8358de@email.android.com> R5YrdHWHkSavnR5YsdI2mC Message-ID: EE could also do the machining for you. Probably expensive, but maybe cheaper than building a rotary table mill for 36"? You should only need to remove material on the outside. Sean On June 30, 2017 4:38:20 PM PDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,I am getting?clarification on where the sphericity is out of >whack. ?I assume at the equator. ?I can machine them down myself, and >rather that then trying to weld 3 inch material. ?The heads start out >at 3.5 inches to produce a minimum of 3 inches at the apex.Hank > >On Friday, June 30, 2017 5:11 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >I presume that the achievable diametral tolerance is a result of the >head thinning at the apex during hot pressing / spinning as material is >pushed towards the flange. I forget the numbers now, but some time ago >I posted a synopsis sourced from someone at EE explaining exactly what >the typical thinning was. In any case, full hemispheres exhibit more >thinning than 2:1 SE heads or dished heads of lesser depth, just >because they are deeper. Two solutions to this are to form thicker than >you need and then machine to remove the extraneous material away from >the apex (expensive), or to form multiple spherically dished heads of >shallower form and weld them together to fabricate your sphere. Nuytco >uses six such dished heads on the DeepWorker spheres, pressed once on >center and then a few times around the outside to get the best >sphericity of the dish before trimming to shape and welding together in >a jig to create the sphere. This corresponds t! o acubic face >construction, but you can do this with with as few as four sections, >corresponding to faces on a tetrahedron, or as many as twenty sections, >corresponding to faces on an icosahedron.Machining two hemispheres down >to the apex thickness all over would give you the most theoretically >perfect hull, but it is ridiculously expensive to do. Phil's method is >a good tradeoff, at the expense of three times the welding.Sean > > >On June 30, 2017 2:59:26 PM PDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Hi Sean,I just heard back from EE with a cost for two 36 inch id ?3.5 >inch heads, and they can not do 1% Diameter sphericity. ?They can do >ASME code witch is 1.25% or 5\8 inch. ?I suppose that would mean >machining the heads. ?The heads could be machined to a very close >tolerance then. ?I would have to build a turret lathe then.Hank >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 1 07:17:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 11:17:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] heads In-Reply-To: References: <1820976408.2606515.1498859966494.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <35c0fd3c-66a4-4a9f-b81b-f0ce0d8358de@email.android.com> Message-ID: <457903688.2878136.1498907837211@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,Yes they offered to do the machining, and yes it would cost a lot, more than the heads.?I am playing around with different size scenarios, starting with the absolute minimum size witch is 36 inches ID, the same as my escape pod. ?Surprisingly it is?spacious enough and quite comfortable. ?I would have to do a mock up to be sure all the bits and pieces fit in. ?The benefit of coarse is the weight drops by around ?3,000 lbs. ?That makes a giant difference in cost of foam.Hank On Friday, June 30, 2017 10:34 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: EE could also do the machining for you. Probably expensive, but maybe cheaper than building a rotary table mill for 36"? You should only need to remove material on the outside.Sean On June 30, 2017 4:38:20 PM PDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,I am getting?clarification on where the sphericity is out of whack. ?I assume at the equator. ?I can machine them down myself, and rather that then trying to weld 3 inch material. ?The heads start out at 3.5 inches to produce a minimum of 3 inches at the apex.Hank OnFriday, June 30, 2017 5:11 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I presume that the achievable diametral tolerance is a result of the head thinning at the apex during hot pressing / spinning as material is pushed towards the flange. I forget the numbers now, but some time ago I posted a synopsis sourced from someone at EE explaining exactly what the typical thinning was. In any case, full hemispheres exhibit more thinning than 2:1 SE heads or dished heads of lesser depth, just because they are deeper. Two solutions to this are to form thicker than you need and then machine to remove the extraneous material away from the apex (expensive), or to form multiple spherically dished heads of shallower form and weld them together to fabricate your sphere. Nuytco uses six such dished heads on the DeepWorker spheres, pressed! once oncenter and then a few times around the outside to get the best sphericity of the dish before trimming to shape and welding together in a jig to create the sphere. This corresponds t! o acubic face construction, but you can do this with with as few as four sections, corresponding to faces on a tetrahedron, or as many as twenty sections, corresponding to faces on an icosahedron.Machining two hemispheres down to the apex thickness all over would give you the most theoretically perfect hull, but it is ridiculously expensive to do. Phil's method is a good tradeoff, at the expense of three times the welding.Sean On June 30, 2017 2:59:26 PM PDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,I just heard back from EE with a cost for two 36 inch id ?3.5 inch heads, and they can not do 1% Diameter sphericity. ?They can do ASME code witch is 1.25% or 5\8 inch. ?I suppose that would mean machining the heads. ?The heads could be machined to a very close tolerance then. ?I would have to build a turret lathe then.Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibl! esmailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 1 09:59:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 13:59:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks References: <822555699.2945792.1498917597905.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <822555699.2945792.1498917597905@mail.yahoo.com> Hi all,How do deep diving subs deal with external O2 supply. ?Does Alvin have external tanks for O2, ?are they super special tanks?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 1 10:24:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2017 10:24:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Message-ID: <201707011425.v61EP9Gp017612@whoweb.com> Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Hi all,How do deep diving subs deal with external O2 supply. ?Does Alvin have external tanks for O2, ?are they super special tanks?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 1 12:34:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 16:34:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks In-Reply-To: <201707011425.v61EP9Gp017612@whoweb.com> References: <201707011425.v61EP9Gp017612@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <591684194.3013964.1498926881111@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is. ?I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them. ?A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. ?Hank On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Hi all,How do deep diving subs deal with external O2 supply. ?Does Alvin have external tanks for O2, ?are they super special tanks?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 1 15:09:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 19:09:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] heads In-Reply-To: <457903688.2878136.1498907837211@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1820976408.2606515.1498859966494.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <35c0fd3c-66a4-4a9f-b81b-f0ce0d8358de@email.android.com> <457903688.2878136.1498907837211@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1308241841.3106245.1498936157206@mail.yahoo.com> Okay,I stand corrected, a 36 inch sphere is too small. ?I just spent some time in my escape pod and it might get uncomfortable. ?I think 40 inches ID would be perfect.Hank On Saturday, July 1, 2017 5:21 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,Yes they offered to do the machining, and yes it would cost a lot, more than the heads.?I am playing around with different size scenarios, starting with the absolute minimum size witch is 36 inches ID, the same as my escape pod. ?Surprisingly it is?spacious enough and quite comfortable. ?I would have to do a mock up to be sure all the bits and pieces fit in. ?The benefit of coarse is the weight drops by around ?3,000 lbs. ?That makes a giant difference in cost of foam.Hank On Friday, June 30, 2017 10:34 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: EE could also do the machining for you. Probably expensive, but maybe cheaper than building a rotary table mill for 36"? You should only need to remove material on the outside.Sean On June 30, 2017 4:38:20 PM PDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,I am getting?clarification on where the sphericity is out of whack. ?I assume at the equator. ?I can machine them down myself, and rather that then trying to weld 3 inch material. ?The heads start out at 3.5 inches to produce a minimum of 3 inches at the apex.Hank OnFriday, June 30, 2017 5:11 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I presume that the achievable diametral tolerance is a result of the head thinning at the apex during hot pressing / spinning as material is pushed towards the flange. I forget the numbers now, but some time ago I posted a synopsis sourced from someone at EE explaining exactly what the typical thinning was. In any case, full hemispheres exhibit more thinning than 2:1 SE heads or dished heads of lesser depth, just because they are deeper. Two solutions to this are to form thicker than you need and then machine to remove the extraneous material away from the apex (expensive), or to form multiple spherically dished heads of shallower form and weld them together to fabricate your sphere. Nuytco uses six such dished heads on the DeepWorker spheres, pressed! once oncenter and then a few times around the outside to get the best sphericity of the dish before trimming to shape and welding together in a jig to create the sphere. This corresponds t! o acubic face construction, but you can do this with with as few as four sections, corresponding to faces on a tetrahedron, or as many as twenty sections, corresponding to faces on an icosahedron.Machining two hemispheres down to the apex thickness all over would give you the most theoretically perfect hull, but it is ridiculously expensive to do. Phil's method is a good tradeoff, at the expense of three times the welding.Sean On June 30, 2017 2:59:26 PM PDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean,I just heard back from EE with a cost for two 36 inch id ?3.5 inch heads, and they can not do 1% Diameter sphericity. ?They can do ASME code witch is 1.25% or 5\8 inch. ?I suppose that would mean machining the heads. ?The heads could be machined to a very close tolerance then. ?I would have to build a turret lathe then.Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibl! esmailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 1 15:27:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2017 15:27:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Message-ID: <201707011927.v61JR2te018843@whoweb.com> I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation.Thanks,Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is. ?I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them. ?A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. ?Hank ??? On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Su -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 1 19:59:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 18:59:23 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks In-Reply-To: <201707011927.v61JR2te018843@whoweb.com> References: <201707011927.v61JR2te018843@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <57782A8F-9754-4039-ADC3-58C64B181810@gmail.com> Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a linear model. You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study this. An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no stiffeners. This would give a conserative crush depth. Cliff Cliff Redus > On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation. > Thanks, > Scott > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > > Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is. I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them. A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. Hank > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Su > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 1 21:13:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 01:13:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks In-Reply-To: <57782A8F-9754-4039-ADC3-58C64B181810@gmail.com> References: <201707011927.v61JR2te018843@whoweb.com> <57782A8F-9754-4039-ADC3-58C64B181810@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1987652214.3245144.1498958018223@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the unstiffened cylinder program. ?The only problem is, I can not find the exact material the steel tanks are made from. ?I am assuming same steel and gives a good estimate.Thanks CliffHank On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a linear model. ?You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study this. ?An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no stiffeners. ?This would give a conserative crush depth. Cliff Cliff Redus On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation.Thanks,Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is. ?I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them. ?A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. ?Hank ??? On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Su _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 01:47:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 17:47:43 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks In-Reply-To: <1987652214.3245144.1498958018223@mail.yahoo.com> References: <201707011927.v61JR2te018843@whoweb.com> <57782A8F-9754-4039-ADC3-58C64B181810@gmail.com> <1987652214.3245144.1498958018223@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99C62E5C-67D0-4A55-8CBD-F816E8A1586C@yahoo.com> Cliff, ( or anyone) I was thinking of ways of making my one person sub idiot proof with regard to the turning on of the O2 supply. If I let anybody dive it I won't be in there to oversee. My ideas are to have a switch under the seat ( as they have on ride on lawn mowers) & a hatch closure switch ( which is required by G.L. ) linked to the O2 system so that when both switches are closed ( pilot seated & hatch closed) the O2 feed system is activated. This will be the solenoid top up part of the O2 system. A sign & maybe audible voice will say " Turn on Oxygen valve". So the system will be like the DW O2 add system where there is a minimal amount of O2 constantly flowing but the balance flows in from a solenoid valve activated by O2 level readings. The CO2 scrubber could also be linked. Any thoughts on this? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad > On 2/07/2017, at 1:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the unstiffened cylinder program. The only problem is, I can not findways of the exact material the steel tanks are made from. I am assuming same steel and gives a good estimate. > Thanks Cliff > Hank > > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a linear model. You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study this. An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no stiffeners. This would give a conserative crush depth. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > >> On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation. > Thanks, > Scott > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > > Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is. I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them. A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. Hank > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Su >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 09:32:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 08:32:59 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks In-Reply-To: <99C62E5C-67D0-4A55-8CBD-F816E8A1586C@yahoo.com> References: <201707011927.v61JR2te018843@whoweb.com> <57782A8F-9754-4039-ADC3-58C64B181810@gmail.com> <1987652214.3245144.1498958018223@mail.yahoo.com> <99C62E5C-67D0-4A55-8CBD-F816E8A1586C@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, while you have the hatch interlock to protect from trying to dive the boat if hatch is open or if O2 and Air pressures are low, I would be a bit worried about a pilot weight switch tied to a solenoid on any part of the O2 supply (O2 supply interlock). This would be a NC solenoid valve so what happens if you loose power, your O2 to the boat would be offline if this valve was in the main supply line. You would need a manual O2 override to be able to bypass this valve and have O2 makeup when all power is off. With the intent of letting someone else pilot the one man boat, I think you can handle issues like O2 and air supply valve state by having a series of checklist the pilot performs with the surface coordinator . If you have these checklist go through the PLC and HMI, then they can also act as interlock to prevent the novice pilot from diving the boat if any of these major systems are compromised. On my boat, I have such a system. I kind of like the idea of the PLC knowing if a pilot is in the boat in addition to the hatch state but just not for O2 supply interlock. I need to chew on this pilot weight interlock idea to see what benefit it could bring my boat. Best regards Cliff On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 12:47 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, ( or anyone) > I was thinking of ways of making my one person sub idiot proof with > regard to the turning on of the O2 supply. If I let anybody dive it I won't > be in there to oversee. > My ideas are to have a switch under the seat ( as they have on ride on lawn > mowers) & a hatch closure switch ( which is required by G.L. ) linked to > the O2 system so that when both switches are closed ( pilot seated & > hatch closed) the O2 feed system is activated. This will be the solenoid > top > up part of the O2 system. A sign & maybe audible voice will say " Turn on > Oxygen > valve". So the system will be like the DW O2 add system where there is a > minimal amount of O2 constantly flowing but the balance flows in from a > solenoid > valve activated by O2 level readings. > The CO2 scrubber could also be linked. > Any thoughts on this? > Thanks Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 2/07/2017, at 1:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the unstiffened > cylinder program. The only problem is, I can not findways of the exact > material the steel tanks are made from. I am assuming same steel and gives > a good estimate. > Thanks Cliff > Hank > > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a > linear model. You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study > this. An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no > stiffeners. This would give a conserative crush depth. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > > On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily > found out on a solidworks simulation. > Thanks, > Scott > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > > Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 > tank is. I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the > volume and leave pressure inside them. A sub could carry several in that > case since they are close to neutral buoyant. Hank > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 > internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that > are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 > AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Su > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 10:19:37 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jerry Koontz via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 10:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks (via Personal_Submersibles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1587564912.1015378.1499005177169.JavaMail.root@md20.quartz.synacor.com> Autocad Inventor has the FEA tool built in and works really well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "via Personal_Submersibles" To: "personal submersibles" Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2017 12:47:36 AM Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 3 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: O2 tanks (via Personal_Submersibles) 2. Re: O2 tanks (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) 3. Re: O2 tanks (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 18:59:23 -0500 From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Message-ID: <57782A8F-9754-4039-ADC3-58C64B181810 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a linear model. You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study this. An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no stiffeners. This would give a conserative crush depth. Cliff Cliff Redus > On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation. > Thanks, > Scott > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > > Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is. I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them. A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. Hank > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Su > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 01:13:38 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Message-ID: <1987652214.3245144.1498958018223 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Cliff,That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the unstiffened cylinder program. ?The only problem is, I can not find the exact material the steel tanks are made from. ?I am assuming same steel and gives a good estimate.Thanks CliffHank On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a linear model. ?You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study this. ?An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no stiffeners. ?This would give a conserative crush depth. Cliff Cliff Redus On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation.Thanks,Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is. ?I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them. ?A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. ?Hank ??? On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Su _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 17:47:43 +1200 From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Message-ID: <99C62E5C-67D0-4A55-8CBD-F816E8A1586C at yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Cliff, ( or anyone) I was thinking of ways of making my one person sub idiot proof with regard to the turning on of the O2 supply. If I let anybody dive it I won't be in there to oversee. My ideas are to have a switch under the seat ( as they have on ride on lawn mowers) & a hatch closure switch ( which is required by G.L. ) linked to the O2 system so that when both switches are closed ( pilot seated & hatch closed) the O2 feed system is activated. This will be the solenoid top up part of the O2 system. A sign & maybe audible voice will say " Turn on Oxygen valve". So the system will be like the DW O2 add system where there is a minimal amount of O2 constantly flowing but the balance flows in from a solenoid valve activated by O2 level readings. The CO2 scrubber could also be linked. Any thoughts on this? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad > On 2/07/2017, at 1:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the unstiffened cylinder program. The only problem is, I can not findways of the exact material the steel tanks are made from. I am assuming same steel and gives a good estimate. > Thanks Cliff > Hank > > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a linear model. You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study this. An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no stiffeners. This would give a conserative crush depth. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > >> On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation. > Thanks, > Scott > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > > Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is. I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them. A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. Hank > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Su >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 3 **************************************************** From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 10:35:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 14:35:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks (via Personal_Submersibles) In-Reply-To: <1587564912.1015378.1499005177169.JavaMail.root@md20.quartz.synacor.com> References: <1587564912.1015378.1499005177169.JavaMail.root@md20.quartz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <1773386510.3502136.1499006155600@mail.yahoo.com> What version of Inventor are you using ? From: Jerry Koontz via Personal_Submersibles To: personal submersibles ; personal submersibles-request Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2017 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks (via Personal_Submersibles) Autocad Inventor has the FEA tool built in and works really well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "via Personal_Submersibles" To: "personal submersibles" Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2017 12:47:36 AM Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 3 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ??? personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ??? personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. Re: O2 tanks (via Personal_Submersibles) ? 2. Re: O2 tanks (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ? 3. Re: O2 tanks (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 18:59:23 -0500 From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ??? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Message-ID: <57782A8F-9754-4039-ADC3-58C64B181810 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a linear model.? You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study this.? An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no stiffeners.? This would give a conserative crush depth. Cliff Cliff Redus > On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation. > Thanks, > Scott > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > > Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is.? I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them.? A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant.? Hank > >? ? On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Su > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 01:13:38 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ??? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ??? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Message-ID: <1987652214.3245144.1498958018223 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Cliff,That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the unstiffened cylinder program. ?The only problem is, I can not find the exact material the steel tanks are made from. ?I am assuming same steel and gives a good estimate.Thanks CliffHank ? ? On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a linear model. ?You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study this. ?An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no stiffeners. ?This would give a conserative crush depth. Cliff Cliff Redus On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation.Thanks,Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is. ?I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them. ?A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. ?Hank ??? On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Su _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 17:47:43 +1200 From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ??? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Message-ID: <99C62E5C-67D0-4A55-8CBD-F816E8A1586C at yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Cliff, ( or anyone) I was thinking of ways of making my one person sub idiot proof with regard to the turning on of the O2 supply. If I let anybody dive it I won't be in there to oversee. My ideas are to have a switch under the seat ( as they have on ride on lawn mowers) & a hatch closure switch ( which is required by G.L. ) linked to the O2 system so that when both switches are closed ( pilot seated & hatch closed) the O2 feed system is activated. This will be the solenoid top up part of the O2 system. A sign & maybe audible voice will say " Turn on Oxygen valve". So the system will be like the DW O2 add system where there is a minimal amount of O2 constantly flowing but the balance flows in from a solenoid valve activated by O2 level readings. The CO2 scrubber could also be linked. Any thoughts on this? Thanks Alan Sent from my iPad > On 2/07/2017, at 1:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the unstiffened cylinder program.? The only problem is, I can not findways of? the exact material the steel tanks are made from.? I am assuming same steel and gives a good estimate. > Thanks Cliff > Hank > > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a linear model.? You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study this.? An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no stiffeners.? This would give a conserative crush depth. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > >> On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation. > Thanks, > Scott > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > > Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is.? I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them.? A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant.? Hank > >? ? On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Su >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 3 **************************************************** _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 12:29:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 04:29:11 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks In-Reply-To: References: <201707011927.v61JR2te018843@whoweb.com> <57782A8F-9754-4039-ADC3-58C64B181810@gmail.com> <1987652214.3245144.1498958018223@mail.yahoo.com> <99C62E5C-67D0-4A55-8CBD-F816E8A1586C@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53495B58-257A-45EB-9BB0-F75062BABFA4@yahoo.com> Thanks Cliff, apart from diving I had in mind people transiting to the dive spot with the hatch closed. They mightn't necessarily think about turning on the life support at this point. Also on hot days on a long surface excursion, you may alternate between having the hatch open & closed. In this case a pre dive check may be missed. Sent from my iPad > e On 3/07/2017, at 1:32 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, while you have the hatch interlock to protect from trying to dive the boat if hatch is open or if O2 and Air pressures are low, I would be a bit worried about a pilot weight switch tied to a solenoid on any part of the O2 supply (O2 supply interlock). This would be a NC solenoid valve so what happens if you loose power, your O2 to the boat would be offline if this valve was in the main supply line. You would need a manual O2 override to be able to bypass this valve and have O2 makeup when all power is off. > > With the intent of letting someone else pilot the one man boat, I think you can handle issues like O2 and air supply valve state by having a series of checklist the pilot performs with the surface coordinator . If you have these checklist go through the PLC and HMI, then they can also act as interlock to prevent the novice pilot from diving the boat if any of these major systems are compromised. On my boat, I have such a system. > > I kind of like the idea of the PLC knowing if a pilot is in the boat in addition to the hatch state but just not for O2 supply interlock. I need to chew on this pilot weight interlock idea to see what benefit it could bring my boat. > > Best regards > > Cliff > >> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 12:47 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Cliff, ( or anyone) >> I was thinking of ways of making my one person sub idiot proof with >> regard to the turning on of the O2 supply. If I let anybody dive it I won't >> be in there to oversee. >> My ideas are to have a switch under the seat ( as they have on ride on lawn >> mowers) & a hatch closure switch ( which is required by G.L. ) linked to >> the O2 system so that when both switches are closed ( pilot seated & >> hatch closed) the O2 feed system is activated. This will be the solenoid top >> up part of the O2 system. A sign & maybe audible voice will say " Turn on Oxygen >> valve". So the system will be like the DW O2 add system where there is a >> minimal amount of O2 constantly flowing but the balance flows in from a solenoid >> valve activated by O2 level readings. >> The CO2 scrubber could also be linked. >> Any thoughts on this? >> Thanks Alan >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 2/07/2017, at 1:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Cliff, >>> That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the unstiffened cylinder program. The only problem is, I can not findways of the exact material the steel tanks are made from. I am assuming same steel and gives a good estimate. >>> Thanks Cliff >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a linear model. You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study this. An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no stiffeners. This would give a conserative crush depth. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> >>> Cliff Redus >>> >>>> On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>> >>> >>> I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation. >>> Thanks, >>> Scott >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >>> Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks >>> >>> Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is. I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them. A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. Hank >>> >>> On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Su >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 12:45:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 11:45:01 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks (via Personal_Submersibles) In-Reply-To: <1587564912.1015378.1499005177169.JavaMail.root@md20.quartz.synacor.com> References: <1587564912.1015378.1499005177169.JavaMail.root@md20.quartz.synacor.com> Message-ID: Jerry, Inventor FEA base module is linear model only. It will only solve one of the three possible failure modes and not either of the buckling modes, Cliff On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Jerry Koontz via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Autocad Inventor has the FEA tool built in and works really well. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "via Personal_Submersibles" > To: "personal submersibles" > Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2017 12:47:36 AM > Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 3 > > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: O2 tanks (via Personal_Submersibles) > 2. Re: O2 tanks (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) > 3. Re: O2 tanks (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 18:59:23 -0500 > From: via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > Message-ID: <57782A8F-9754-4039-ADC3-58C64B181810 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a > linear model. You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study > this. An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no > stiffeners. This would give a conserative crush depth. > > Cliff > > > Cliff Redus > > > On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be > easily found out on a solidworks simulation. > > Thanks, > > Scott > > > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > > Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > > > > Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba > O2 tank is. I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of > the volume and leave pressure inside them. A sub could carry several in > that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. Hank > > > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 > internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that > are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 > AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Su > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170701/1d624f94/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 01:13:38 +0000 (UTC) > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > Message-ID: <1987652214.3245144.1498958018223 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Cliff,That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the unstiffened > cylinder program. ?The only problem is, I can not find the exact material > the steel tanks are made from. ?I am assuming same steel and gives a good > estimate.Thanks CliffHank > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a > linear model. ?You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study > this. ?An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no > stiffeners. ?This would give a conserative crush depth. > Cliff > > Cliff Redus > On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily > found out on a solidworks simulation.Thanks,Scott > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 > 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 > tank is. ?I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the > volume and leave pressure inside them. ?A sub could carry several in that > case since they are close to neutral buoyant. ?Hank > > ??? On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 > internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that > are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 > AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Su > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170702/8f335ce9/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 17:47:43 +1200 > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > Message-ID: <99C62E5C-67D0-4A55-8CBD-F816E8A1586C at yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Cliff, ( or anyone) > I was thinking of ways of making my one person sub idiot proof with > regard to the turning on of the O2 supply. If I let anybody dive it I won't > be in there to oversee. > My ideas are to have a switch under the seat ( as they have on ride on lawn > mowers) & a hatch closure switch ( which is required by G.L. ) linked to > the O2 system so that when both switches are closed ( pilot seated & > hatch closed) the O2 feed system is activated. This will be the solenoid > top > up part of the O2 system. A sign & maybe audible voice will say " Turn on > Oxygen > valve". So the system will be like the DW O2 add system where there is a > minimal amount of O2 constantly flowing but the balance flows in from a > solenoid > valve activated by O2 level readings. > The CO2 scrubber could also be linked. > Any thoughts on this? > Thanks Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 2/07/2017, at 1:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Cliff, > > That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the unstiffened > cylinder program. The only problem is, I can not findways of the exact > material the steel tanks are made from. I am assuming same steel and gives > a good estimate. > > Thanks Cliff > > Hank > > > > > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > > Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a > linear model. You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study > this. An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no > stiffeners. This would give a conserative crush depth. > > > > Cliff > > > > > > Cliff Redus > > > >> On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> > > > > > > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be > easily found out on a solidworks simulation. > > Thanks, > > Scott > > > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > > Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks > > > > Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba > O2 tank is. I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of > the volume and leave pressure inside them. A sub could carry several in > that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. Hank > > > > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 > internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that > are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 > AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Su > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170702/1d789b04/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 3 > **************************************************** > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 13:09:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 05:09:26 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks In-Reply-To: References: <201707011927.v61JR2te018843@whoweb.com> <57782A8F-9754-4039-ADC3-58C64B181810@gmail.com> <1987652214.3245144.1498958018223@mail.yahoo.com> <99C62E5C-67D0-4A55-8CBD-F816E8A1586C@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry fat fingers on sensitive ipad, fired email too soon. Also in the equation may be being towed; where noise from boat motors & distractions, plus glare on the screen may hinder any warnings from being observed. The fact that you can die without warning from scrubbing out the C02 while neglecting to turn on the O2, has me worried. I believe that is why Kiteridge designed the K250 without a life support system. You could design the electronics so that the O2 system wouldn't fail if the seat switch failed while diving. Have a switch activated by the main ballast valves to form another current path to the O2 add solenoid. There would be two functions, the auto function where the solenoid automatically adds air when the operator was seated & the hatch down; this normally is a top up system but can supply all the required O2. The second function is turning on the valve to the O2 flow meter. So there is a hull stop valve which remains open, a tee to the solenoid add system & a valve on the O2 flow meter which is part of the check list. Of course there would be normal low O2 warnings. Re the seat switch; I had a friend that always wanted a ride on mower. He bought one when in the later stages of cancer & wasn't heavy enough to trigger the switch. So light springs for light pilots. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 3/07/2017, at 1:32 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, while you have the hatch interlock to protect from trying to dive the boat if hatch is open or if O2 and Air pressures are low, I would be a bit worried about a pilot weight switch tied to a solenoid on any part of the O2 supply (O2 supply interlock). This would be a NC solenoid valve so what happens if you loose power, your O2 to the boat would be offline if this valve was in the main supply line. You would need a manual O2 override to be able to bypass this valve and have O2 makeup when all power is off. > > With the intent of letting someone else pilot the one man boat, I think you can handle issues like O2 and air supply valve state by having a series of checklist the pilot performs with the surface coordinator . If you have these checklist go through the PLC and HMI, then they can also act as interlock to prevent the novice pilot from diving the boat if any of these major systems are compromised. On my boat, I have such a system. > > I kind of like the idea of the PLC knowing if a pilot is in the boat in addition to the hatch state but just not for O2 supply interlock. I need to chew on this pilot weight interlock idea to see what benefit it could bring my boat. > > Best regards > > Cliff > >> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 12:47 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Cliff, ( or anyone) >> I was thinking of ways of making my one person sub idiot proof with >> regard to the turning on of the O2 supply. If I let anybody dive it I won't >> be in there to oversee. >> My ideas are to have a switch under the seat ( as they have on ride on lawn >> mowers) & a hatch closure switch ( which is required by G.L. ) linked to >> the O2 system so that when both switches are closed ( pilot seated & >> hatch closed) the O2 feed system is activated. This will be the solenoid top >> up part of the O2 system. A sign & maybe audible voice will say " Turn on Oxygen >> valve". So the system will be like the DW O2 add system where there is a >> minimal amount of O2 constantly flowing but the balance flows in from a solenoid >> valve activated by O2 level readings. >> The CO2 scrubber could also be linked. >> Any thoughts on this? >> Thanks Alan >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 2/07/2017, at 1:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Cliff, >>> That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the unstiffened cylinder program. The only problem is, I can not findways of the exact material the steel tanks are made from. I am assuming same steel and gives a good estimate. >>> Thanks Cliff >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a linear model. You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study this. An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no stiffeners. This would give a conserative crush depth. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> >>> Cliff Redus >>> >>>> On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>> >>> >>> I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation. >>> Thanks, >>> Scott >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >>> Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks >>> >>> Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty Scuba O2 tank is. I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part of the volume and leave pressure inside them. A sub could carry several in that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. Hank >>> >>> On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission O2 internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders that are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 9:59 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Su >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 13:14:49 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 13:14:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not inventor, but Autodesk Simulation Mechanical will do nonlinear buckling analysis. I taught myself to set up nonlinear buckling simulations in ANSYS. Oddly enough, they didn't cover the fundamentals of submarine pressure hull design in the FEA class I took... -River Dolfi rdolfi7 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 13:30:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2017 10:30:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks (via Personal_Submersibles) In-Reply-To: Ri0KdtdBxsSDNRi0MdKZys References: <1587564912.1015378.1499005177169.JavaMail.root@md20.quartz.synacor.com> Ri0KdtdBxsSDNRi0MdKZys Message-ID: <0d5dad28-d476-4279-a652-f17ad2b19ddc@email.android.com> I was just going to point this out. You need a fully dynamic / non-linear solver to model behaviour beyond yield, which the companion applets to the CAD packages are not. The standard ABS equations will do fine for design - they are derived from the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, Section 8. The greater problem is probably obtaining drawings or accurate measurements of the gas cylinder wall thickness and head geometry. If you really want externally mounted gas storage for a deep diving sub, you are probably looking at custom vessels anyway. RMS Titanic is on the seafloor at 12,500 fsw. The pressure at that depth is 5700 psi or so - guaranteed to fail even a full SCUBA cylinder at 3000 psi internal. Sean On July 2, 2017 9:45:01 AM PDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Jerry, Inventor FEA base module is linear model only. It will only >solve >one of the three possible failure modes and not either of the buckling >modes, > >Cliff > >On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Jerry Koontz via Personal_Submersibles >< >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Autocad Inventor has the FEA tool built in and works really well. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "via Personal_Submersibles" >> To: "personal submersibles" >> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2017 12:47:36 AM >> Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 3 >> >> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: O2 tanks (via Personal_Submersibles) >> 2. Re: O2 tanks (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> 3. Re: O2 tanks (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) >> >> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 18:59:23 -0500 >> From: via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks >> Message-ID: <57782A8F-9754-4039-ADC3-58C64B181810 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a >> linear model. You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to >study >> this. An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet >with no >> stiffeners. This would give a conserative crush depth. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> Cliff Redus >> >> > On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles >< >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be >> easily found out on a solidworks simulation. >> > Thanks, >> > Scott >> > >> > >> > >> > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> > >> > -------- Original message -------- >> > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> org> >> > Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks >> > >> > Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty >Scuba >> O2 tank is. I suppose you could increase the rating by using only >part of >> the volume and leave pressure inside them. A sub could carry several >in >> that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. Hank >> > >> > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > >> > >> > Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission >O2 >> internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders >that >> are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters >> > >> > >> > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via >> Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 >9:59 >> AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Su >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> 20170701/1d624f94/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 01:13:38 +0000 (UTC) >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks >> Message-ID: <1987652214.3245144.1498958018223 at mail.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Cliff,That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the >unstiffened >> cylinder program. ?The only problem is, I can not find the exact >material >> the steel tanks are made from. ?I am assuming same steel and gives a >good >> estimate.Thanks CliffHank >> >> On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a >> linear model. ?You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to >study >> this. ?An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet >with no >> stiffeners. ?This would give a conserative crush depth. >> Cliff >> >> Cliff Redus >> On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be >easily >> found out on a solidworks simulation.Thanks,Scott >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via >> Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 >> 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 >tanks >> Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty >Scuba O2 >> tank is. ?I suppose you could increase the rating by using only part >of the >> volume and leave pressure inside them. ?A sub could carry several in >that >> case since they are close to neutral buoyant. ?Hank >> >> ??? On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission >O2 >> internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders >that >> are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via >> Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 >9:59 >> AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Su >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> 20170702/8f335ce9/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 17:47:43 +1200 >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks >> Message-ID: <99C62E5C-67D0-4A55-8CBD-F816E8A1586C at yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Cliff, ( or anyone) >> I was thinking of ways of making my one person sub idiot proof with >> regard to the turning on of the O2 supply. If I let anybody dive it I >won't >> be in there to oversee. >> My ideas are to have a switch under the seat ( as they have on ride >on lawn >> mowers) & a hatch closure switch ( which is required by G.L. ) linked >to >> the O2 system so that when both switches are closed ( pilot seated & >> hatch closed) the O2 feed system is activated. This will be the >solenoid >> top >> up part of the O2 system. A sign & maybe audible voice will say " >Turn on >> Oxygen >> valve". So the system will be like the DW O2 add system where there >is a >> minimal amount of O2 constantly flowing but the balance flows in from >a >> solenoid >> valve activated by O2 level readings. >> The CO2 scrubber could also be linked. >> Any thoughts on this? >> Thanks Alan >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On 2/07/2017, at 1:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> > Cliff, >> > That is exactly what I did, I put the tank specs in the unstiffened >> cylinder program. The only problem is, I can not findways of the >exact >> material the steel tanks are made from. I am assuming same steel and >gives >> a good estimate. >> > Thanks Cliff >> > Hank >> > >> > >> > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:05 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> > >> > Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use >a >> linear model. You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to >study >> this. An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet >with no >> stiffeners. This would give a conserative crush depth. >> > >> > Cliff >> > >> > >> > Cliff Redus >> > >> >> On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles >< >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> > >> > >> > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be >> easily found out on a solidworks simulation. >> > Thanks, >> > Scott >> > >> > >> > >> > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> > >> > -------- Original message -------- >> > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> org> >> > Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks >> > >> > Thanks' Scott,Do you know what the max depth rating for an empty >Scuba >> O2 tank is. I suppose you could increase the rating by using only >part of >> the volume and leave pressure inside them. A sub could carry several >in >> that case since they are close to neutral buoyant. Hank >> > >> > On Saturday, July 1, 2017 8:25 AM, Scott Waters via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > >> > >> > Hank,Alvin has all the O2 supply internally. Pisces has the mission >O2 >> internally and emergency supply externally in special steel cylinders >that >> are pressure tested to 1.25 max depth while empty.Thanks,Scott Waters >> > >> > >> > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> > -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via >> Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/1/17 >9:59 >> AM (GMT-05:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Su >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> 20170702/1d789b04/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 3 >> **************************************************** >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 14:29:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 18:29:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks (via Personal_Submersibles) In-Reply-To: <0d5dad28-d476-4279-a652-f17ad2b19ddc@email.android.com> References: <1587564912.1015378.1499005177169.JavaMail.root@md20.quartz.synacor.com> <0d5dad28-d476-4279-a652-f17ad2b19ddc@email.android.com> Message-ID: <181271824.3635539.1499020154144@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,I did a thickness guess and length etc with the Psubs calculator and the scuba tank is good for 4,400 feet.?Hank On Sunday, July 2, 2017 11:30 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I was just going to point this out. You need a fully dynamic / non-linear solver to model behaviour beyond yield, which the companion applets to the CAD packages are not.The standard ABS equations will do fine for design - they are derived from the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, Section 8. The greater problem is probably obtaining drawings or accurate measurements of the gas cylinder wall thickness and head geometry.? If you really want externally mounted gas storage for a deep diving sub, you are probably looking at custom vessels anyway. RMS Titanic is on the seafloor at 12,500 fsw. The pressure at that depth is 5700 psi or so - guaranteed to fail even a full SCUBA cylinder at 3000 psi internal.Sean On July 2, 2017 9:45:01 AM PDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jerry, Inventor FEA base module is linear model only.? It will only solve one of the three possible failure modes and not either of the buckling modes,? Cliff? On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Jerry Koontz via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Autocad Inventor has the FEA tool built in and works really well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "via Personal_Submersibles" To: "personal submersibles" Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2017 12:47:36 AM Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 3 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles at psubs. org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ? ? ? ? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-request@ psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-owner@ psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? ?1. Re: O2 tanks (via Personal_Submersibles) ? ?2. Re: O2 tanks (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ? ?3. Re: O2 tanks (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 18:59:23 -0500 From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? ? ? ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 tanks Message-ID: <57782A8F-9754-4039-ADC3- 58C64B181810 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Most of the FEA packages associated with 3-d modeling software use a linear model.? You would need an FEA tool that can model buckling to study this.? An alternative is to use the ABS stress analysis spreadsheet with no stiffeners.? This would give a conserative crush depth. Cliff Cliff Redus > On Jul 1, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I am unsure of the depth rating of an empty scuba tank. It could be easily found out on a solidworks simulation. > Thanks, > Scott > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/1/17 12:34 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 3 20:32:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 00:32:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <290592591.2833317.1498524831390@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <60DAF247-6746-4372-B3E6-181C4A62DB7B@yahoo.com> <235575785.2994909.1498507708410@mail.yahoo.com> <1758313329.2769275.1498511950473@mail.yahoo.com> <1793756246.3062318.1498513815370@mail.yahoo.com> <1245914876.2777861.1498515925705@mail.yahoo.com> <2029068749.3148986.1498519567993@mail.yahoo.com> <671937743.2825385.1498521139539@mail.yahoo.com> <223823138.3168438.1498523184438@mail.yahoo.com> <290592591.2833317.1498524831390@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1925575861.4656679.1499128356429@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,I am having trouble understanding why Ron says you need a hell of a lot more material that 100% rule for a window opening. ?My logic is as follows, if you remove a conical section out of a heavy wall sphere and the angle intersects the centre of the sphere, you can glue it back in and the hull has not lost strength in that area. ?Now if you replace that with an identical section of acrylic, it will not work. ?To my mind the reason it will not work is, the acrylic will compress and the mass is no longer sufficient to carry the load along the load path into the hull. ?Now, if the acrylic is thicker, it will handle the pressure without failing and it can compress and have enough strength ?to carry the load to the frame . ?The window port frame need only transfer the force from the extra thickness into the load path. ?In short, to me, the port frame is only supporting the extra acrylic thickness and transferring the force into the hull. ?Hank On Monday, June 26, 2017 6:58 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here is a pic of Ron piloting the sub at 850 meters.http://ocean-innovations.net/OceanInnovationsNEW/Global%20Ocean%20Design/ont_part3_god.pdf Ron told me that the rule about replacing the same amount of material removed from the viewport opening was wrong -"you need a hell of a lot more" were his exact words. He also used a different steel for the hatch (300 M). He said that the best lube for the port was a "dry glide" spray from ?CRC. Contrary to popular thinking, vacuum or silcone grease stores up pressure and then releases it with a BANG! He really knows his stuff... There are a few good drawings of the DSC hull online and they might come in handy since you will be building something very similar. Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Being a non engineer, I am a copy cat, that is how I built Elementary 3000, I listened to what Sean had to say, I studied Scotts P6 and even duplicated Scott's P6 port and frame. ?You could take my port and fit it in Scotts sub. ?I stole the port in the Hatch Idea. ?The only idea I have had is to glue and bolt the whole thing together. ?Trieste has a second sphere from new and it is made from 3 perfectly ?machined sections.Hank On Monday, June 26, 2017 5:56 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I had the pleasure of meeting him at Nat Geo when Jim C was there with the sub and gave a talk. Ron is THE MAN! Probably the most knowledgeable DEEP sub builder today. If you're serious about Titanic, find out EVERYTHING you can about the way he put that sub together.One thing he told me was never used silicone grease on a viewport and added that ?"it is the worst". Through testing, Ron discovered that a lot of accepted standards and practices about deep sub construction are actually not correct. Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Do you know Ron personally, were you involved with the port?Hank On Monday, June 26, 2017 4:25 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, The steel that Ron choice was actually much stronger than HY-100. Here is an article you might find interesting- http://www.ansys.com/-/media/Ansys/corporate/resourcelibrary/article/AA-V6-I3-Deep-Dive.pdf Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Thank you for the acrylic offer, that would be great, of coarse I will be looking to you for?annealing. ?The CNG sphere at 48 in ID and 3.25 in thick ?could do it but it would be past the safe woking pressure witch is 4444.8 psi just shy of 10,000 feetThe sphere your talking about was probably exotic steel like HY-100Edmonton Exchanger did say they would press a HY steel head for me but foam is cheaper I think.Pity about the CNG sphere because they have a life of 300 years and I can pick one up in Texas for 8KHank On Monday, June 26, 2017 3:20 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I'm surprised to hear you say that the CNG sphere is too light. My "seat of the pants" engineering tells me that a CNG sphere would be plenty. Are you sure its too light? If memory serves me correctly, the sphere that Ron Allum made was 42" OD x 2.5" thick gun barrel steel and had a 1.4/1 safety factor at 38,000 ft. What thickness acrylic do you need for the port? I'll donate a piece of 4" to the cause if that will help. Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,?I do not have a plan for getting on site. ?I have a plan to get there, East Coast that is. ?I can haul it cross country myself.Right now it is a dream really, not a plan. ?But Elementary 3000 started that way. ?I do have it mostly figured out, and I have an EFA guy lined up through Karl Stanley. ? I will have two heads pressed and machined at Edmonton Exchanger in Edmonton Alberta. ?My original CNG sphere plan is to light. ?I think the getting on site part will evolve, I am sure money will make that happen easily.Thanks' for calling it "interesting" and not ridiculous. ;-)Hank On Monday, June 26, 2017 12:01 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks David,I get 7000 lumens. Have a dimmer control for it buthaven't tried it yet.Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/06/2017, at 3:08 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Looks great!, what Lumens did you get with this design? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:48 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine.? Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad__________________________ _____________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 3 22:19:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 19:19:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: SBqCdSmdFwSGxSBqDdZ4oj References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <60DAF247-6746-4372-B3E6-181C4A62DB7B@yahoo.com> <235575785.2994909.1498507708410@mail.yahoo.com> <1758313329.2769275.1498511950473@mail.yahoo.com> <1793756246.3062318.1498513815370@mail.yahoo.com> <1245914876.2777861.1498515925705@mail.yahoo.com> <2029068749.3148986.1498519567993@mail.yahoo.com> <671937743.2825385.1498521139539@mail.yahoo.com> <223823138.3168438.1498523184438@mail.yahoo.com> <290592591.2833317.1498524831390@mail.yahoo.com> SBqCdSmdFwSGxSBqDdZ4oj Message-ID: Hank, the acrylic will not carry any of the hull hoop stresses - it simply isn't strong enough to do so. You have to analyze the opening as if the acrylic isn't there, which means you need sufficient reinforcement around the opening to carry the stress that would otherwise have been carried by the steel that was removed. The stress in the reinforcement will be greater than the nominal shell stress because of the stress concentration resulting from the new geometry. In short, you can determine the required acrylic window thickness, and design a window frame accordingly, but that alone does not determine how much steel needs to be in that frame. That is instead determined by the shell stresses that must necessarily be routed around - not through - the opening. Sean On July 3, 2017 5:32:36 PM PDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Greg,I am having trouble understanding why Ron says you need a hell of >a lot more material that 100% rule for a window opening. ?My logic is >as follows, if you remove a conical section out of a heavy wall sphere >and the angle intersects the centre of the sphere, you can glue it back >in and the hull has not lost strength in that area. ?Now if you replace >that with an identical section of acrylic, it will not work. ?To my >mind the reason it will not work is, the acrylic will compress and the >mass is no longer sufficient to carry the load along the load path into >the hull. ?Now, if the acrylic is thicker, it will handle the pressure >without failing and it can compress and have enough strength ?to carry >the load to the frame . ?The window port frame need only transfer the >force from the extra thickness into the load path. ?In short, to me, >the port frame is only supporting the extra acrylic thickness and >transferring the force into the hull. ?Hank > >On Monday, June 26, 2017 6:58 PM, james cottrell via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Here is a pic of Ron piloting the sub at 850 >meters.http://ocean-innovations.net/OceanInnovationsNEW/Global%20Ocean%20Design/ont_part3_god.pdf > >Ron told me that the rule about replacing the same amount of material >removed from the viewport opening was wrong -"you need a hell of a lot >more" were his exact words. He also used a different steel for the >hatch (300 M). He said that the best lube for the port was a "dry >glide" spray from ?CRC. Contrary to popular thinking, vacuum or silcone >grease stores up pressure and then releases it with a BANG! He really >knows his stuff... >There are a few good drawings of the DSC hull online and they might >come in handy since you will be building something very similar. >Greg > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 8:28 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > >Greg,Being a non engineer, I am a copy cat, that is how I built >Elementary 3000, I listened to what Sean had to say, I studied Scotts >P6 and even duplicated Scott's P6 port and frame. ?You could take my >port and fit it in Scotts sub. ?I stole the port in the Hatch Idea. >?The only idea I have had is to glue and bolt the whole thing together. >?Trieste has a second sphere from new and it is made from 3 perfectly >?machined sections.Hank > >On Monday, June 26, 2017 5:56 PM, james cottrell via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >I had the pleasure of meeting him at Nat Geo when Jim C was there with >the sub and gave a talk. Ron is THE MAN! Probably the most >knowledgeable DEEP sub builder today. If you're serious about Titanic, >find out EVERYTHING you can about the way he put that sub together.One >thing he told me was never used silicone grease on a viewport and added >that ?"it is the worst". Through testing, Ron discovered that a lot of >accepted standards and practices about deep sub construction are >actually not correct. >Greg > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:32 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > >Greg,Do you know Ron personally, were you involved with the port?Hank > >On Monday, June 26, 2017 4:25 PM, james cottrell via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, >The steel that Ron choice was actually much stronger than HY-100. Here >is an article you might find interesting- >http://www.ansys.com/-/media/Ansys/corporate/resourcelibrary/article/AA-V6-I3-Deep-Dive.pdf > > >Greg > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 5:57 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > >Greg,Thank you for the acrylic offer, that would be great, of coarse I >will be looking to you for?annealing. ?The CNG sphere at 48 in ID and >3.25 in thick ?could do it but it would be past the safe woking >pressure witch is 4444.8 psi just shy of 10,000 feetThe sphere your >talking about was probably exotic steel like HY-100Edmonton Exchanger >did say they would press a HY steel head for me but foam is cheaper I >think.Pity about the CNG sphere because they have a life of 300 years >and I can pick one up in Texas for 8KHank > >On Monday, June 26, 2017 3:20 PM, james cottrell via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, >I'm surprised to hear you say that the CNG sphere is too light. My >"seat of the pants" engineering tells me that a CNG sphere would be >plenty. Are you sure its too light? If memory serves me correctly, the >sphere that Ron Allum made was 42" OD x 2.5" thick gun barrel steel and >had a 1.4/1 safety factor at 38,000 ft. >What thickness acrylic do you need for the port? I'll donate a piece of >4" to the cause if that will help. >Greg > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 4:10 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > >Greg,?I do not have a plan for getting on site. ?I have a plan to get >there, East Coast that is. ?I can haul it cross country myself.Right >now it is a dream really, not a plan. ?But Elementary 3000 started that >way. ?I do have it mostly figured out, and I have an EFA guy lined up >through Karl Stanley. ? I will have two heads pressed and machined at >Edmonton Exchanger in Edmonton Alberta. ?My original CNG sphere plan is >to light. ?I think the getting on site part will evolve, I am sure >money will make that happen easily.Thanks' for calling it "interesting" >and not ridiculous. ;-)Hank > >On Monday, June 26, 2017 12:01 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >Thanks David,I get 7000 lumens. Have a dimmer control for it buthaven't >tried it yet.Alan > >Sent from my iPad >On 27/06/2017, at 3:08 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >Hi Alan, Looks great!, what Lumens did you get with this design? > > >Best Regards, >David Colombo > >804 College Ave >Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >(707) 536-1424 >www.SeaQuestor.com > > >On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:48 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? >that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks >fine.? Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not >perfectly matched to the Lenz. > >On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water >blaster >& no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do >with >my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I >had >thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it >didn't. >The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating >the >wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from >where they came >out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc >glue that >they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc >insulation >than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than >shoe goo), >3M 5200 & polyurethane. >Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded >polyurethane. >In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on >looks wet >but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't >like this >from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are >the >male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for >the >same. >Alan > > >Sent from my iPad__________________________ _____________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > >______________________________ _________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >| | Virus-free. www.avast.com | > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 3 22:49:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 22:49:21 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <1758313329.2769275.1498511950473@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <60DAF247-6746-4372-B3E6-181C4A62DB7B@yahoo.com> <235575785.2994909.1498507708410@mail.yahoo.com> <1758313329.2769275.1498511950473@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Greg, Can you send me an email off list please? I can see you're on this thread but it doesn't show me the actual email address, and the address I have for you bounces. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 5:19 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, > > I'm surprised to hear you say that the CNG sphere is too light. My "seat > of the pants" engineering tells me that a CNG sphere would be plenty. Are > you sure its too light? If memory serves me correctly, the sphere that Ron > Allum made was 42" OD x 2.5" thick gun barrel steel and had a 1.4/1 safety > factor at 38,000 ft. > > What thickness acrylic do you need for the port? I'll donate a piece of 4" > to the cause if that will help. > > Greg > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, June 26, 2017 4:10 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > I do not have a plan for getting on site. I have a plan to get there, > East Coast that is. I can haul it cross country myself. > Right now it is a dream really, not a plan. But Elementary 3000 started > that way. I do have it mostly figured out, and I have an EFA guy lined up > through Karl Stanley. I will have two heads pressed and machined at > Edmonton Exchanger in Edmonton Alberta. My original CNG sphere plan is to > light. > I think the getting on site part will evolve, I am sure money will make > that happen easily. > Thanks' for calling it "interesting" and not ridiculous. ;-) > Hank > > > On Monday, June 26, 2017 12:01 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Thanks David, > I get 7000 lumens. Have a dimmer control for it but > haven't tried it yet. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 27/06/2017, at 3:08 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, Looks great!, what Lumens did you get with this design? > > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:48 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that > stuff sticks like mad. > I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. Either the gasket > thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. > > > On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster > & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do > with > my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had > thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it > didn't. > The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the > wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where > they came > out of the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue > that > they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc > insulation > than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe > goo), > 3M 5200 & polyurethane. > Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. > In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks > wet > but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't > like this > from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the > male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the > same. > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad__________________________ _____________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_3351442642086791338_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 4 05:59:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 09:59:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <60DAF247-6746-4372-B3E6-181C4A62DB7B@yahoo.com> <235575785.2994909.1498507708410@mail.yahoo.com> <1758313329.2769275.1498511950473@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2028849117.4932139.1499162363038@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,Okay, ?I am getting it now. ?I am thinking in terms of supporting the window really instead of supporting the hull. ? I figured if the outside pressure is pushing against the port the same as the hull and the port compresses, then the port essentially is as strong as the hull, because the port is under compression. ?Thank's for clearing that up.Hank On Monday, July 3, 2017 8:49 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Greg, Can you send me an email off list please? I can see you're on this thread but it doesn't show me the actual email address, and the address I have for you bounces. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 5:19 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I'm surprised to hear you say that the CNG sphere is too light. My "seat of the pants" engineering tells me that a CNG sphere would be plenty. Are you sure its too light? If memory serves me correctly, the sphere that Ron Allum made was 42" OD x 2.5" thick gun barrel steel and had a 1.4/1 safety factor at 38,000 ft. What thickness acrylic do you need for the port? I'll donate a piece of 4" to the cause if that will help. Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,?I do not have a plan for getting on site.? I have a plan to get there, East Coast that is.? I can haul it cross country myself.Right now it is a dream really, not a plan.? But Elementary 3000 started that way.? I do have it mostly figured out, and I have an EFA guy lined up through Karl Stanley. ? I will have two heads pressed and machined at Edmonton Exchanger in Edmonton Alberta.? My original CNG sphere plan is to light. ?I think the getting on site part will evolve, I am sure money will make that happen easily.Thanks' for calling it "interesting" and not ridiculous. ;-)Hank On Monday, June 26, 2017 12:01 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks David,I get 7000 lumens. Have a dimmer control for it buthaven't tried it yet.Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/06/2017, at 3:08 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Looks great!, what Lumens did you get with this design? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:48 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine.? Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad__________________________ _____________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 4 06:07:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 10:07:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <2028849117.4932139.1499162363038@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <60DAF247-6746-4372-B3E6-181C4A62DB7B@yahoo.com> <235575785.2994909.1498507708410@mail.yahoo.com> <1758313329.2769275.1498511950473@mail.yahoo.com> <2028849117.4932139.1499162363038@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <67768638.4951049.1499162876821@mail.yahoo.com> The good news is Elementary 3000 port frame is 2.33 times as heavy as the removed hull section.Hank On Tuesday, July 4, 2017 4:04 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,Okay, ?I am getting it now. ?I am thinking in terms of supporting the window really instead of supporting the hull. ? I figured if the outside pressure is pushing against the port the same as the hull and the port compresses, then the port essentially is as strong as the hull, because the port is under compression. ?Thank's for clearing that up.Hank On Monday, July 3, 2017 8:49 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Greg, Can you send me an email off list please? I can see you're on this thread but it doesn't show me the actual email address, and the address I have for you bounces. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 5:19 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I'm surprised to hear you say that the CNG sphere is too light. My "seat of the pants" engineering tells me that a CNG sphere would be plenty. Are you sure its too light? If memory serves me correctly, the sphere that Ron Allum made was 42" OD x 2.5" thick gun barrel steel and had a 1.4/1 safety factor at 38,000 ft. What thickness acrylic do you need for the port? I'll donate a piece of 4" to the cause if that will help. Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,?I do not have a plan for getting on site.? I have a plan to get there, East Coast that is.? I can haul it cross country myself.Right now it is a dream really, not a plan.? But Elementary 3000 started that way.? I do have it mostly figured out, and I have an EFA guy lined up through Karl Stanley. ? I will have two heads pressed and machined at Edmonton Exchanger in Edmonton Alberta.? My original CNG sphere plan is to light. ?I think the getting on site part will evolve, I am sure money will make that happen easily.Thanks' for calling it "interesting" and not ridiculous. ;-)Hank On Monday, June 26, 2017 12:01 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks David,I get 7000 lumens. Have a dimmer control for it buthaven't tried it yet.Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/06/2017, at 3:08 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Looks great!, what Lumens did you get with this design? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:48 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine.? Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad__________________________ _____________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 4 09:25:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 13:25:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <1925575861.4656679.1499128356429@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <60DAF247-6746-4372-B3E6-181C4A62DB7B@yahoo.com> <235575785.2994909.1498507708410@mail.yahoo.com> <1758313329.2769275.1498511950473@mail.yahoo.com> <1793756246.3062318.1498513815370@mail.yahoo.com> <1245914876.2777861.1498515925705@mail.yahoo.com> <2029068749.3148986.1498519567993@mail.yahoo.com> <671937743.2825385.1498521139539@mail.yahoo.com> <223823138.3168438.1498523184438@mail.yahoo.com> <290592591.2833317.1498524831390@mail.yahoo.com> <1925575861.4656679.1499128356429@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <882961722.4157899.1499174743451@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Hank, I think that both you and Sean are partially correct but it depends on the application. Sean's statement that the hull needs to be designed as if the acrylic were not that there depends on the design depth and the percentage of hull that is comprised of acrylic. For instance, if the acrylic is port is increased in size (such as a large dome) then it certainly is functioning as part of the hull and is carrying load. Ron's comment was in the context of a hull designed to go way deeper that acrylic can withstand in most geometries. In his case, the acrylic is not able to transfer much of the load and it falls to the steel to compensate. Sometimes the opposite is true- sometimes it is the insert that is TOO strong. I once fabricated some acrylic parts for the Johnson Sea Link II and noticed that the guys at HB had added a nylon ring around the aluminum hatch (in between the aluminum and the acrylic). Turns out that the aluminum did not compress at the same rate as the acrylic hull and was throwing the whole thing out of round at depth. The solution was to add a nylon donut "compression joint" to make up for the hard aluminum. The soft nylon compressed to compensate for the harder aluminum. In theory, all parts of a pressure hull need to compress at the same rate. At full depth, the hull needs to be a scale model of itself at the surface. The trick to creating the correct geometry will depend on the performance of each material at that specific depth and in concert with all other parts of the hull. Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, July 3, 2017 8:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,I am having trouble understanding why Ron says you need a hell of a lot more material that 100% rule for a window opening. ?My logic is as follows, if you remove a conical section out of a heavy wall sphere and the angle intersects the centre of the sphere, you can glue it back in and the hull has not lost strength in that area. ?Now if you replace that with an identical section of acrylic, it will not work. ?To my mind the reason it will not work is, the acrylic will compress and the mass is no longer sufficient to carry the load along the load path into the hull. ?Now, if the acrylic is thicker, it will handle the pressure without failing and it can compress and have enough strength ?to carry the load to the frame . ?The window port frame need only transfer the force from the extra thickness into the load path. ?In short, to me, the port frame is only supporting the extra acrylic thickness and transferring the force into the hull. ?Hank On Monday, June 26, 2017 6:58 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here is a pic of Ron piloting the sub at 850 meters.http://ocean-innovations.net/OceanInnovationsNEW/Global%20Ocean%20Design/ont_part3_god.pdf Ron told me that the rule about replacing the same amount of material removed from the viewport opening was wrong -"you need a hell of a lot more" were his exact words. He also used a different steel for the hatch (300 M). He said that the best lube for the port was a "dry glide" spray from ?CRC. Contrary to popular thinking, vacuum or silcone grease stores up pressure and then releases it with a BANG! He really knows his stuff... There are a few good drawings of the DSC hull online and they might come in handy since you will be building something very similar. Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Being a non engineer, I am a copy cat, that is how I built Elementary 3000, I listened to what Sean had to say, I studied Scotts P6 and even duplicated Scott's P6 port and frame. ?You could take my port and fit it in Scotts sub. ?I stole the port in the Hatch Idea. ?The only idea I have had is to glue and bolt the whole thing together. ?Trieste has a second sphere from new and it is made from 3 perfectly ?machined sections.Hank On Monday, June 26, 2017 5:56 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I had the pleasure of meeting him at Nat Geo when Jim C was there with the sub and gave a talk. Ron is THE MAN! Probably the most knowledgeable DEEP sub builder today. If you're serious about Titanic, find out EVERYTHING you can about the way he put that sub together.One thing he told me was never used silicone grease on a viewport and added that ?"it is the worst". Through testing, Ron discovered that a lot of accepted standards and practices about deep sub construction are actually not correct. Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Do you know Ron personally, were you involved with the port?Hank On Monday, June 26, 2017 4:25 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, The steel that Ron choice was actually much stronger than HY-100. Here is an article you might find interesting- http://www.ansys.com/-/media/Ansys/corporate/resourcelibrary/article/AA-V6-I3-Deep-Dive.pdf Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Thank you for the acrylic offer, that would be great, of coarse I will be looking to you for?annealing. ?The CNG sphere at 48 in ID and 3.25 in thick ?could do it but it would be past the safe woking pressure witch is 4444.8 psi just shy of 10,000 feetThe sphere your talking about was probably exotic steel like HY-100Edmonton Exchanger did say they would press a HY steel head for me but foam is cheaper I think.Pity about the CNG sphere because they have a life of 300 years and I can pick one up in Texas for 8KHank On Monday, June 26, 2017 3:20 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I'm surprised to hear you say that the CNG sphere is too light. My "seat of the pants" engineering tells me that a CNG sphere would be plenty. Are you sure its too light? If memory serves me correctly, the sphere that Ron Allum made was 42" OD x 2.5" thick gun barrel steel and had a 1.4/1 safety factor at 38,000 ft. What thickness acrylic do you need for the port? I'll donate a piece of 4" to the cause if that will help. Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,?I do not have a plan for getting on site. ?I have a plan to get there, East Coast that is. ?I can haul it cross country myself.Right now it is a dream really, not a plan. ?But Elementary 3000 started that way. ?I do have it mostly figured out, and I have an EFA guy lined up through Karl Stanley. ? I will have two heads pressed and machined at Edmonton Exchanger in Edmonton Alberta. ?My original CNG sphere plan is to light. ?I think the getting on site part will evolve, I am sure money will make that happen easily.Thanks' for calling it "interesting" and not ridiculous. ;-)Hank On Monday, June 26, 2017 12:01 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks David,I get 7000 lumens. Have a dimmer control for it buthaven't tried it yet.Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/06/2017, at 3:08 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Looks great!, what Lumens did you get with this design? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:48 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine.? Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad__________________________ _____________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 6 15:48:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 19:48:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new lathe References: <1357739682.25543.1499370508612.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1357739682.25543.1499370508612@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,Today I finalized the deal on my new Vertical lathe, this thing is a BEAST ?it has a 42 inch chuck and a 48 inch swing, and it weighs 22,000 lbs. ?It is being shipped on a low bed semi 1,000 KM. It is too tall for a regular trailer at 10 feet tall. ?I have to remove a section of shop wall to get it in lol. ?I bought it to machine the heads for the next Elementary project. ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 6 16:51:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2017 08:51:55 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new lathe In-Reply-To: <1357739682.25543.1499370508612@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1357739682.25543.1499370508612.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1357739682.25543.1499370508612@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <027101d2f699$b61f00c0$225d0240$@gmail.com> Well done Hank. I was going to suggest a vertical lathe but I didn?t think you would have enough room. Just the job for making subs though. Brilliant! Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 7 July 2017 7:48 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new lathe Hi All, Today I finalized the deal on my new Vertical lathe, this thing is a BEAST it has a 42 inch chuck and a 48 inch swing, and it weighs 22,000 lbs. It is being shipped on a low bed semi 1,000 KM. It is too tall for a regular trailer at 10 feet tall. I have to remove a section of shop wall to get it in lol. I bought it to machine the heads for the next Elementary project. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 6 16:58:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 13:58:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new lathe In-Reply-To: <027101d2f699$b61f00c0$225d0240$@gmail.com> References: <1357739682.25543.1499370508612.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1357739682.25543.1499370508612@mail.yahoo.com> <027101d2f699$b61f00c0$225d0240$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hank, as they say "Go big or go home". Are you going to be offering milling services for other psubers??? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Well done Hank. I was going to suggest a vertical lathe but I didn?t > think you would have enough room. Just the job for making subs though. > > Brilliant! Chs Hugh > > > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Friday, 7 July 2017 7:48 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] new lathe > > > > Hi All, > > Today I finalized the deal on my new Vertical lathe, this thing is a BEAST > it has a 42 inch chuck and a 48 inch swing, and it weighs 22,000 lbs. It > is being shipped on a low bed semi 1,000 KM. It is too tall for a regular > trailer at 10 feet tall. I have to remove a section of shop wall to get it > in lol. I bought it to machine the heads for the next Elementary project. > > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 6 19:46:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 17:46:06 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new lathe In-Reply-To: TCqNdN4RLoQOBTCqOdDfqG References: <1357739682.25543.1499370508612.ref@mail.yahoo.com> TCqNdN4RLoQOBTCqOdDfqG Message-ID: You bought a 22000 lb machine, and that was cheaper than having EE do the machining? Yikes. Sean On July 6, 2017 1:48:28 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi All,Today I finalized the deal on my new Vertical lathe, this thing >is a BEAST ?it has a 42 inch chuck and a 48 inch swing, and it weighs >22,000 lbs. ?It is being shipped on a low bed semi 1,000 KM. It is too >tall for a regular trailer at 10 feet tall. ?I have to remove a section >of shop wall to get it in lol. ?I bought it to machine the heads for >the next Elementary project. ?Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 6 20:31:54 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2017 00:31:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new lathe In-Reply-To: References: <1357739682.25543.1499370508612.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1044722510.202516.1499387514673@mail.yahoo.com> Hugh,I agree it is ideal, not that I have a clue how to operate this thing. ?David, I would be happy to make parts for Psubbers, I can fit a CT in this thing ?in any position with room to spare! ?Sean, yes EE would charge a fortune to machine the heads.Hank On Thursday, July 6, 2017 5:46 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You bought a 22000 lb machine, and that was cheaper than having EE do the machining? Yikes.Sean On July 6, 2017 1:48:28 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Today I finalized the deal on my new Vertical lathe, this thing is a BEAST ?it has a 42 inch chuck and a 48 inch swing, and it weighs 22,000 lbs. ?It is being shipped on a low bed semi 1,000 KM. It is too tall for a regular trailer at 10 feet tall. ?I have to remove a section of shop wall to get it in lol. ?I bought it to machine the heads for the next Elementary project. ?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 7 13:19:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2017 10:19:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new lathe Message-ID: <20170707101917.13BE0553@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 7 17:44:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2017 21:44:18 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 copyright infringement Message-ID: Someone is selling K350 plans on eBay. Not sure who here can address it, but thought the intellectual property was given to psubs Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/222574004655 Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 8 21:21:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 01:21:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new lathe In-Reply-To: <20170707101917.13BE0553@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20170707101917.13BE0553@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2054528779.1568101.1499563290077@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,? What are the dimensions of your sphere (diameter and thickness ) ? Thanks Pete From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, July 7, 2017 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new lathe Great score Hank !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new lathe Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2017 00:31:54 +0000 (UTC) Hugh,I agree it is ideal, not that I have a clue how to operate this thing. ?David, I would be happy to make parts for Psubbers, I can fit a CT in this thing ?in any position with room to spare! ?Sean, yes EE would charge a fortune to machine the heads.Hank On Thursday, July 6, 2017 5:46 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You bought a 22000 lb machine, and that was cheaper than having EE do the machining? Yikes.Sean On July 6, 2017 1:48:28 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Today I finalized the deal on my new Vertical lathe, this thing is a BEAST ?it has a 42 inch chuck and a 48 inch swing, and it weighs 22,000 lbs. ?It is being shipped on a low bed semi 1,000 KM. It is too tall for a regular trailer at 10 feet tall. ?I have to remove a section of shop wall to get it in lol. ?I bought it to machine the heads for the next Elementary project. ?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 12:36:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 16:36:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 13:07:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 17:07:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. ?I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head. ?EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . ?I can ask them but would need to source the material first. ?I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 13:17:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 17:17:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. ?I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head. ?EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . ?I can ask them but would need to source the material first. ?I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 14:23:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 18:23:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. ?I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head. ?EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . ?I can ask them but would need to source the material first. ?I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 15:24:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 15:24:58 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 copyright infringement Message-ID: I saw that as well Brian. He's been advertising pdf copies of the plans on and off for atleast a year. You can report listings on eBay for copyright infringement. This brings up another thing. PSUBS isn't incorporated as a nonprofit? I know john runs things and keeps the books, but it probably wouldn't hurt to fill out some forms and make things more organized/credible/insulated from liability. I've filed articles of incorporation before, and it really wasn't that bad for a couple of organized people to do. Has the group tried going down this path before? -River J. Dolfi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 15:21:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 19:21:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,Not a bad idea. ?I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000. ?I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. ?I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. ?I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head. ?EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . ?I can ask them but would need to source the material first. ?I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 15:57:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 19:57:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Not a bad idea. ?I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000. ?I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. ?I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. ?I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head. ?EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . ?I can ask them but would need to source the material first. ?I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 16:05:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 20:05:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver. ?But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. ?If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Not a bad idea. ?I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000. ?I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. ?I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. ?I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head. ?EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . ?I can ask them but would need to source the material first. ?I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 16:22:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 20:22:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver. ?But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. ?If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Not a bad idea. ?I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000. ?I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. ?I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. ?I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head. ?EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . ?I can ask them but would need to source the material first. ?I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 16:31:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 20:31:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical. ?If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver. ?But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. ?If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Not a bad idea. ?I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000. ?I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. ?I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. ?I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head. ?EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . ?I can ask them but would need to source the material first. ?I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 18:31:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 10:31:55 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, any idea of the cost of hiring a ship & crew to do a return trip of 1500 miles to the Titanic & back. Those costs could sway you toward the 7500 footer! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/07/2017, at 8:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Very true. > I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical. If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) Then it will be awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. > > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver. But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > > I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. > > For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! > > Greg > > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > Not a bad idea. I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000. I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another machine like that in the Canadian prairies. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > > You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ > > Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd > > Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd > > > Greg C > > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Greg, > I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel to press a hemispherical head. EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . I can ask them but would need to source the material first. I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > > Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. > > Greg C > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Alan, > That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad. > I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. > > > On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster > & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with > my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had > thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. > The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the > wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came > out of the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that > they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation > than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), > 3M 5200 & polyurethane. > Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. > In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet > but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this > from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the > male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the > same. > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 19:30:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 23:30:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <71665288.2032622.1499643006285@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Not if I buy my own shipHank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,any idea of the cost of hiring a ship & crew to do a return tripof 1500 miles to the Titanic & back. Those costs could swayyou toward the 7500 footer!?Alan Sent from my iPad On 10/07/2017, at 8:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical. ?If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver. ?But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. ?If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Not a bad idea. ?I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000. ?I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. ?I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. ?I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head. ?EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . ?I can ask them but would need to source the material first. ?I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 19:37:13 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 09:37:13 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Australian Pressure Vessel Heads is in my neck of the woods - I'd be happy to make enquiries or visit them on your behalf if needed. I've used heads from them in the past (just stainless internal pressure vessel stuff) and they are good to deal with. Cheers, Steve On Jul 10, 2017 8:33 AM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, > any idea of the cost of hiring a ship & crew to do a return trip > of 1500 miles to the Titanic & back. Those costs could sway > you toward the 7500 footer! > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 10/07/2017, at 8:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Very true. > I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super > critical. If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I > will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) Then it will be awesome to have > it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between > your feet. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow > diver. But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered > into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. If I end up > being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank, > > I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel > frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. > That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the > hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the > "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could > be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot > is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ > starboard pontoons. > > For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good > viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. > If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! > > Greg > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > Not a bad idea. I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary > 3000. I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. I only bought > the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of > finding another machine like that in the Canadian prairies. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hank, > > You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ > > Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd > > > Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd > > > > Greg C > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even hardened and > tempered, but what does that mean? > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Greg, > I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching > tank. I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY > steel to press a hemispherical head. EE does not supply anything but > 516-70 . I can ask them but would need to source the material first. I > would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hank, > > Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that > Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with > plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed > for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. > > Greg C > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Alan, > That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that > stuff sticks like mad. > I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. Either the gasket > thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. > > > On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster > & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do > with > my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had > thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it > didn't. > The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the > wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where > they came > out of the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue > that > they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc > insulation > than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe > goo), > 3M 5200 & polyurethane. > Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. > In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks > wet > but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't > like this > from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the > male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the > same. > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 19:33:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 23:33:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <380392605.2043171.1499643237638@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I will buy one of these hahahahahahaHank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 5:33 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=WShiJ25D&id=0C09289A80D30E8F71B12036B9CA6E623DC7E59C&thid=OIP.WShiJ25Da-qwcq-ud8JCYAEsDH&q=biggest+ship+images&simid=608029334761507042&selectedIndex=19 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2017-07-09 at 5.32 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23640 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 19:38:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 23:38:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1954708534.2072776.1499643536317@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Steve,Thank you, that would be great!Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 5:37 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,Australian Pressure Vessel Heads is in my neck of the woods - I'd be happy to make enquiries or visit them on your behalf if needed. I've used heads from them in the past (just stainless internal pressure vessel stuff) and they are good to deal with. Cheers,Steve On Jul 10, 2017 8:33 AM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Hank,any idea of the cost of hiring a ship & crew to do a return tripof 1500 miles to the Titanic & back. Those costs could swayyou toward the 7500 footer!?Alan Sent from my iPad On 10/07/2017, at 8:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Not a bad idea.? I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000.? I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018.? I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank.? I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head.? EE does not supply anything but 516-70 .? I can ask them but would need to source the material first.? I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine.? Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad__________________________ _____________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 20:19:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 00:19:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <896211091.2038026.1499645954116@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,All joking aside, ?my ambitions might be unrealistic. ?Building a 7,500 footer is?totally realistic, but then even 5 years ago I wouldn't have thought I could build a 3,000 footer. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,any idea of the cost of hiring a ship & crew to do a return tripof 1500 miles to the Titanic & back. Those costs could swayyou toward the 7500 footer!?Alan Sent from my iPad On 10/07/2017, at 8:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical. ?If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver. ?But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. ?If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Not a bad idea. ?I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000. ?I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. ?I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. ?I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head. ?EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . ?I can ask them but would need to source the material first. ?I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 21:16:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 01:16:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <957970997.1823597.1499649413660@mail.yahoo.com> I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical. ?If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver. ?But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. ?If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Not a bad idea. ?I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000. ?I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. ?I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. ?I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head. ?EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . ?I can ask them but would need to source the material first. ?I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 21:53:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 01:53:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <957970997.1823597.1499649413660@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> <957970997.1823597.1499649413660@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <586680184.2153777.1499651632981@mail.yahoo.com> I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical. ?If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver. ?But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. ?If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Not a bad idea. ?I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000. ?I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. ?I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank. ?I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head. ?EE does not supply anything but 516-70 . ?I can ask them but would need to source the material first. ?I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. ?Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 22:43:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:43:41 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <586680184.2153777.1499651632981@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> <957970997.1823597.1499649413660@mail.yahoo.com> <586680184.2153777.1499651632981@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water. If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers, Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is fabulous because you > change the values for different materials. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate > that? > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Very true. > I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super > critical. If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I > will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) Then it will be awesome to have > it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between > your feet. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow > diver. But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered > into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. If I end up > being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hank, > > I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel > frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. > That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the > hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the > "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could > be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot > is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ > starboard pontoons. > > For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good > viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. > If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! > > Greg > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > Not a bad idea. I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary > 3000. I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. I only bought > the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of > finding another machine like that in the Canadian prairies. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hank, > > You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ > > Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd > > > Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd > > > > Greg C > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even hardened and > tempered, but what does that mean? > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Greg, > I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching > tank. I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY > steel to press a hemispherical head. EE does not supply anything but > 516-70 . I can ask them but would need to source the material first. I > would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hank, > > Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that > Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with > plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed > for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. > > Greg C > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Alan, > That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that > stuff sticks like mad. > I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. Either the gasket > thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. > > > On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster > & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do > with > my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had > thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it > didn't. > The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the > wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where > they came > out of the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue > that > they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc > insulation > than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe > goo), > 3M 5200 & polyurethane. > Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. > In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks > wet > but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't > like this > from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the > male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the > same. > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 22:49:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:49:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> <957970997.1823597.1499649413660@mail.yahoo.com> <586680184.2153777.1499651632981@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1184662971.2129476.1499654990364@mail.yahoo.com> Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Not a bad idea.? I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000.? I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018.? I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank.? I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head.? EE does not supply anything but 516-70 .? I can ask them but would need to source the material first.? I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine.? Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad__________________________ _____________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 23:04:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 13:04:53 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <1184662971.2129476.1499654990364@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> <957970997.1823597.1499649413660@mail.yahoo.com> <586680184.2153777.1499651632981@mail.yahoo.com> <1184662971.2129476.1499654990364@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ah ok Hank, cool. The trouble with the composite tanks underwater is that when they are pressurised they expand slightly and this can open any cracks in the epoxy (which is only there to support the fibres giving tensile strength). If you then take them underwater, the external pressure forces water into the cracks, and it can then sit there and do weird things - like corroding the interal alumninium liner. They are pretty robust though, and I destroyed 3 (albeit new) cylinders after various saltwater and mechanical punishment, none of which failed badly. Frequent hydrostatic tests was the best I could come up with for seeing whether one is about to explode - obviously this is not ideal, and there's no data on how quickly corrosion can reduce the strength of the cylinder to the point of failure. There is some empirical data from composite SCUBA tanks in use over time. The standards really don't go into much fine detail - they just specify one (rather arbitrary) test to do for a cylinder to be used underwater. Cheers, Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 12:49 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Steve, > Greg was referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres > 3.25 inches thick. > I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy > modules. The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi) > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped? > I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components > wouldn't apply well to composite. > > I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some > testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit > scary, especially with salt water. If anyone is interested I can go into > more detail. > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is fabulous because you > change the values for different materials. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate > that? > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Very true. > I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super > critical. If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I > will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) Then it will be awesome to have > it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between > your feet. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow > diver. But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered > into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. If I end up > being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Hank, > > I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel > frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. > That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the > hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the > "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could > be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot > is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ > starboard pontoons. > > For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good > viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. > If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! > > Greg > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > Not a bad idea. I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary > 3000. I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. I only bought > the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of > finding another machine like that in the Canadian prairies. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > > Hank, > > You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ > > Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd > > > Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd > > > > Greg C > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even hardened and > tempered, but what does that mean? > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Greg, > I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching > tank. I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY > steel to press a hemispherical head. EE does not supply anything but > 516-70 . I can ask them but would need to source the material first. I > would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > > Hank, > > Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that > Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with > plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed > for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. > > Greg C > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Alan, > That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that > stuff sticks like mad. > I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. Either the gasket > thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. > > > On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster > & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do > with > my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had > thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it > didn't. > The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the > wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where > they came > out of the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue > that > they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc > insulation > than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe > goo), > 3M 5200 & polyurethane. > Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. > In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks > wet > but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't > like this > from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the > male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the > same. > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad__________________________ _____________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 9 23:23:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2017 20:23:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Message-ID: <457385.46534.bm@smtp211.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 00:15:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 21:15:24 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new lathe Message-ID: <20170709211524.13C4B027@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 01:21:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 17:21:04 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: <380392605.2043171.1499643237638@mail.yahoo.com> References: <380392605.2043171.1499643237638@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6FF20F6A-601A-405E-86A8-26EFAADE7180@yahoo.com> It looks pretty plane Hank. I can't see a crane on it! I still think you could get backing & make a good documentary about a home built submarine going to the Titanic. We could all pay you a visit as long as we get in the movie credits! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/07/2017, at 11:33 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I will buy one of these hahahahahaha > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 5:33 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=WShiJ25D&id=0C09289A80D30E8F71B12036B9CA6E623DC7E59C&thid=OIP.WShiJ25Da-qwcq-ud8JCYAEsDH&q=biggest+ship+images&simid=608029334761507042&selectedIndex=19 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 05:48:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 09:48:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <457385.46534.bm@smtp211.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <457385.46534.bm@smtp211.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2142469039.2353038.1499680120720@mail.yahoo.com> Kieth,There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. ?The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. ?There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 06:18:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 10:18:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> <957970997.1823597.1499649413660@mail.yahoo.com> <586680184.2153777.1499651632981@mail.yahoo.com> <1184662971.2129476.1499654990364@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <633999508.2309222.1499681901055@mail.yahoo.com> Steve,That is pretty interesting, but I would think it would take a long time to be an issue. ?The aluminum liner is extremely heavy duty in the order of about an inch thick. The carbon fibre and epoxy layer over the aluminum core is also about an inch thick. ? ?When the salt water enters the cracks under pressure, does that mean the salt water is permanently trapped, or does it drain out when on dry land? ?What is the life expectancy of a composite scuba tank? ?What does the test consist of?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:10 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ah ok Hank, cool. The trouble with the composite tanks underwater is that when they are pressurised they expand slightly and?this?can open?any?cracks in the epoxy (which is only there to support the fibres giving tensile strength).??If you then take them underwater, the external pressure forces water into the cracks, and it can then sit there and do weird things - like corroding the interal alumninium liner. They are pretty robust though, and I destroyed 3?(albeit new) cylinders after various saltwater and mechanical punishment, none of which?failed badly.? Frequent? hydrostatic tests was the best I could come up with for?seeing whether one is about to explode - obviously this is not ideal, and there's no data on?how quickly corrosion can reduce the strength of the cylinder?to the point of failure. There is some empirical data?from composite SCUBA tanks in use over time.??The standards really don't go into much fine detail - they just specify one (rather arbitrary) test to do for a cylinder to be used underwater. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 12:49 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules.? The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Not a bad idea.? I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000.? I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018.? I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank.? I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head.? EE does not supply anything but 516-70 .? I can ask them but would need to source the material first.? I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine.? Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad__________________________ _____________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 06:35:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 10:35:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cng tank for buoyancy References: <1406534139.2337445.1499682956842.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1406534139.2337445.1499682956842@mail.yahoo.com> Steve,You had me confused when you mentioned the aluminum liner corroding. ?I misspoke, the aluminum liner is about 1\2 inch thick not 1 inch. ?But that is moot with the tanks I am talking about. ?The tank I am looking at is a type 4 tank witch has a plastic liner, not aluminum. ?The type 3 tank has the aluminum liner. ?There is still lots to consider and research. ?It just seems so simple to use these tanks, so there must be a problem ;-)Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 08:12:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 22:12:14 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cng tank for buoyancy In-Reply-To: <1406534139.2337445.1499682956842@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1406534139.2337445.1499682956842.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1406534139.2337445.1499682956842@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Righto Hank, wow I've not come across one with a plastic liner. I would say the main impediment would be cost, but you seem to have that sorted. Cheers, Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 8:35 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Steve, > You had me confused when you mentioned the aluminum liner corroding. I > misspoke, the aluminum liner is about 1\2 inch thick not 1 inch. But that > is moot with the tanks I am talking about. The tank I am looking at is a > type 4 tank witch has a plastic liner, not aluminum. The type 3 tank has > the aluminum liner. > There is still lots to consider and research. It just seems so simple to > use these tanks, so there must be a problem ;-) > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 11:13:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 08:13:14 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Message-ID: <534043.23114.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank, Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find.? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth,There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. ?The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. ?There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 12:29:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 16:29:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 copyright infringement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1900244210.2088355.1499704170855@mail.yahoo.com> PSUBS is incorporated as a private LLC in New Hampshire. ?We have an IRS EIN number and pay taxes. ?Conversion to a nonprofit and governed by a board is something I have talked about for some time, something I have looked into, and something that does need to happen sooner rather than later. ?However, conversion to a nonprofit is more complex than filing singly or between a couple of people. ?Both state and federal governments require more in-depth articles of incorporation and by-laws for nonprofit than profit LLC's. ?Additionally, most states require a governing board of 3-5 people to operate the non-profit, and that has been the biggest issue...finding five people that are as serious about the business side of PSUBS as they are about consuming the content of PSUBS. This is a good reminder that I need to get the ball rolling on this again. ?PSUBS is 21 years old this year and I'm hoping we can set it up for another 50. Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 14:08:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 13:08:23 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 copyright infringement Message-ID: <201707101808.v6AI7ug9008042@whoweb.com> Jon, I would be willing to assit on the business side of PSUBS. You can message me privately at swaters at piscessub.com I am now full time in the submarine industry. Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 11:29 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 copyright infringement PSUBS is incorporated as a private LLC in New Hampshire. ?We have an IRS EIN number and pay taxes. ?Conversion to a nonprofit and governed by a board is something I have talked about for some time, something I have looked into, and something that does need to happen sooner rather than later. ?However, conversion to a nonprofit is more complex than filing singly or between a couple of people. ?Both state and federal governments require more in-depth articles of incorporation and by-laws for nonprofit than profit LLC's. ?Additionally, most states require a governing board of 3-5 people to operate the non-profit, and that has been the biggest issue...finding five people that are as serious about the business side of PSUBS as they are about consuming the content of PSUBS. This is a good reminder that I need to get the ball rolling on this again. ?PSUBS is 21 years old this year and I'm hoping we can set it up for another 50. Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 15:30:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:30:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New nose tank Message-ID: <20170710123000.13C65FE0@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Fiberglass-tank7.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 107158 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fiber-tank-8.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 122121 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 17:25:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 21:25:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <534043.23114.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <534043.23114.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <384915507.2879864.1499721958963@mail.yahoo.com> Kieth,What are you up to that you need a cng tank?Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find.? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth,There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. ?The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. ?There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 18:34:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:34:46 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New nose tank In-Reply-To: <20170710123000.13C65FE0@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20170710123000.13C65FE0@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <14011CE1-CFFC-4B59-A397-753BEC9D2DCC@yahoo.com> Very good Brian, how did you form it? I managed to split both my ambients fibreglass ballast tanks by making the bottom hole too small. The air couldn't force the water out quick enough! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 11/07/2017, at 7:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > Been making progress on my new nose take. This tank is 6' long and tapers from 18" to 21" that's because of the shape of the sub's front nose section. I still need to put a bulkhead fitting for the vent and one for air injection. I will also be putting some syntactic foam inside which I'm getting from Scott. The tank is pretty strong as it is now but I may add another layer of fiberglass so it's a bit beefier. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 19:01:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 16:01:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Message-ID: <667976.598.bm@smtp109.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank, Compressed H2 gas. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:25 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth,What are you up to that you need a cng tank?Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find.? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth,There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. ?The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. ?There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 19:46:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 23:46:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <667976.598.bm@smtp109.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <667976.598.bm@smtp109.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <567078809.3011348.1499730416941@mail.yahoo.com> Kieth,You can use the cheap steel tanks if your just storing Hydrogen. ?Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 5:02 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Compressed H2 gas. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:25 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth,What are you up to that you need a cng tank?Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find.? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth,There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. ?The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. ?There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sp _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 20:09:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 17:09:29 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Message-ID: <720451.74386.bm@smtp203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank, Any issues using the composite tanks with H2? Seems there are a lot of the about cheep. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 4:46 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth,You can use the cheap steel tanks if your just storing Hydrogen. ?Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 5:02 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Compressed H2 gas. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:25 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth,What are you up to that you need a cng tank?Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find.? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth,There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. ?The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. ?There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 20:18:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 00:18:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <567078809.3011348.1499730416941@mail.yahoo.com> References: <667976.598.bm@smtp109.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <567078809.3011348.1499730416941@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <707713002.2607736.1499732300797@mail.yahoo.com> Kieth,I have no clue, I am always researching the ?tank structure etc. ?That is probably a Hugh question.Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 5:51 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Kieth,You can use the cheap steel tanks if your just storing Hydrogen. ?Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 5:02 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Compressed H2 gas. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:25 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth,What are you up to that you need a cng tank?Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find.? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth,There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. ?The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. ?There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sp _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 20:26:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 17:26:08 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: UgGPdnugmsSDNUgGRd2n1d References: <534043.23114.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> UgGPdnugmsSDNUgGRd2n1d Message-ID: <006e01d2f9dc$4b5e2c70$e21a8550$@telus.net> Hank, What is the price for those 21x120 composite CNG tanks? Unrelated: for the first time in my diving history I have a scuba tank that just failed its hydro. Apparently a minor crack has appeared at the valve neck. This 12 year old, hardly used, aluminum 80 that came with my sub is now scrap metal, maybe worth $6. Darn. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 2:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth, What are you up to that you need a cng tank? Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hank, Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find. Keith T Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth, There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? Keith T Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Steve, Greg was referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick. I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi) Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Hank, I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water. If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers, Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is fabulous because you change the values for different materials. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true. I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical. If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) Then it will be awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg, That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver. But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 21:05:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 01:05:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <006e01d2f9dc$4b5e2c70$e21a8550$@telus.net> References: <534043.23114.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <006e01d2f9dc$4b5e2c70$e21a8550$@telus.net> Message-ID: <531291662.3053354.1499735120933@mail.yahoo.com> Tim,The tanks that are still in certification are 350 each and the ones that are 2017 are 175 each. ?Weird about your tank.Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 6:26 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv6377084832 #yiv6377084832 -- _filtered #yiv6377084832 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6377084832 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6377084832 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6377084832 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv6377084832 #yiv6377084832 p.yiv6377084832MsoNormal, #yiv6377084832 li.yiv6377084832MsoNormal, #yiv6377084832 div.yiv6377084832MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6377084832 a:link, #yiv6377084832 span.yiv6377084832MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6377084832 a:visited, #yiv6377084832 span.yiv6377084832MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6377084832 span.yiv6377084832EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv6377084832 .yiv6377084832MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv6377084832 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv6377084832 div.yiv6377084832WordSection1 {}#yiv6377084832 Hank,What is the price for those 21x120 composite CNG tanks?? Unrelated: for the first time in my diving history I have a scuba tank that just failed its hydro.? Apparently a minor crack has appeared at the valve neck.? This 12 year old, hardly used, aluminum 80 that came with my sub is now scrap metal, maybe worth $6.? Darn.Tim ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 2:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Kieth,What are you up to that you need a cng tank?Hank ?On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, ?Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find.? ?Keith T? ? ? ?Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone ?-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Kieth,There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. ?The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. ?There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? ?Keith T? ? ? ?Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone ?-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. ?I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. ?Cheers,Steve ?On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, ?I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. ?For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! ?Greg ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 21:18:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 01:18:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <006e01d2f9dc$4b5e2c70$e21a8550$@telus.net> References: <534043.23114.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <006e01d2f9dc$4b5e2c70$e21a8550$@telus.net> Message-ID: <145379596.2740763.1499735938813@mail.yahoo.com> Tim, If it makes you feel better, I had to scrap 6 aluminum 80s last year. Greg C From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Hank,What is the price for those 21x120 composite CNG tanks?? Unrelated: for the first time in my diving history I have a scuba tank that just failed its hydro.? Apparently a minor crack has appeared at the valve neck.? This 12 year old, hardly used, aluminum 80 that came with my sub is now scrap metal, maybe worth $6.? Darn.Tim ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 2:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Kieth,What are you up to that you need a cng tank?Hank ?On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, ?Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find.? ?Keith T? ? ? ?Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone ?-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Kieth,There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. ?The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. ?There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? ?Keith T? ? ? ?Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone ?-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. ?I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. ?Cheers,Steve ?On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, ?I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. ?For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! ?Greg ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 21:23:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 01:23:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <531291662.3053354.1499735120933@mail.yahoo.com> References: <534043.23114.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <006e01d2f9dc$4b5e2c70$e21a8550$@telus.net> <531291662.3053354.1499735120933@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1807358779.2710267.1499736226028@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, I have quit a few Sea Batteries from Deep Sea Power & Light. ABS rated for full ocean depth. Contact me off list if you're interested. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Tim,The tanks that are still in certification are 350 each and the ones that are 2017 are 175 each. ?Weird about your tank.Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 6:26 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv0092348955 -- filtered {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}#yiv0092348955 filtered {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}#yiv0092348955 filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv0092348955 filtered {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv0092348955 p.yiv0092348955MsoNormal, #yiv0092348955 li.yiv0092348955MsoNormal, #yiv0092348955 div.yiv0092348955MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0092348955 a:link, #yiv0092348955 span.yiv0092348955MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0092348955 a:visited, #yiv0092348955 span.yiv0092348955MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0092348955 span.yiv0092348955EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0092348955 .yiv0092348955MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv0092348955 filtered {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv0092348955 div.yiv0092348955WordSection1 {}#yiv0092348955 Hank,What is the price for those 21x120 composite CNG tanks?? Unrelated: for the first time in my diving history I have a scuba tank that just failed its hydro.? Apparently a minor crack has appeared at the valve neck.? This 12 year old, hardly used, aluminum 80 that came with my sub is now scrap metal, maybe worth $6.? Darn.Tim ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 2:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Kieth,What are you up to that you need a cng tank?Hank ?On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, ?Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find.? ?Keith T? ? ? ?Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone ?-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Kieth,There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. ?The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. ?There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? ?Keith T? ? ? ?Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone ?-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. ?I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. ?Cheers,Steve ?On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, ?I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. ?For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! ?Greg ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 21:31:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 18:31:14 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New nose tank Message-ID: <20170710183114.13BFA43A@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 10 22:26:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:26:36 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <006e01d2f9dc$4b5e2c70$e21a8550$@telus.net> References: <534043.23114.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> UgGPdnugmsSDNUgGRd2n1d <006e01d2f9dc$4b5e2c70$e21a8550$@telus.net> Message-ID: <05e701d2f9ed$218ab6f0$64a024d0$@gmail.com> Tim, There were some cylinders that developed cracks years ago but there were triple the number that were rejected for false instrument reading on crack detection. The detector will say that a good neck is cracked if the thread has a line through the threads which is caused by the thread tap where it stops. You will see 4 lines through the treads caused by the 4 flutes of the thread tap. I challenged them when they rejected my tank and showed that by burnishing with a rotary wire brush in the threads that eliminated the tap finish marks. They tried the instrument again and hey presto it passed with flying colours. These guys are not engineers testing threads and it is in their interest to fail a cylinder. Hank, It does not matter if it is hydrogen or not but hydrogen is one of the most dangerous gases in that it can cause hydrogen embrittlement in higher tensile steels etc. Same rules will apply for the same pressure generally speaking as they need to meet DOT or ASME. CNG cylinders are too thin for going deep but there is an Argentinian crowd, Kioshi, who make big diameter steel cylinders. Trouble is to go deep they will not be buoyant. Rule of thumb Under 12 inches diameter any pipe will tend to sink. Best flotation devices are likely to be spherical. Chs, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2017 12:26 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Hank, What is the price for those 21x120 composite CNG tanks? Unrelated: for the first time in my diving history I have a scuba tank that just failed its hydro. Apparently a minor crack has appeared at the valve neck. This 12 year old, hardly used, aluminum 80 that came with my sub is now scrap metal, maybe worth $6. Darn. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 2:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth, What are you up to that you need a cng tank? Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find. Keith T Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth, There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? Keith T Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Steve, Greg was referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick. I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi) Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water. If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers, Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is fabulous because you change the values for different materials. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true. I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical. If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) Then it will be awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg, That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver. But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 01:46:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 22:46:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: UktVdpckOsSDNUktXd4E7g References: <534043.23114.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> UgGPdnugmsSDNUgGRd2n1d <006e01d2f9dc$4b5e2c70$e21a8550$@telus.net> UktVdpckOsSDNUktXd4E7g Message-ID: <009701d2fa09$12c97d10$385c7730$@telus.net> Thanks, Hugh. This is interesting. I will look into it. The local hydro static firm tests the tanks for a single fee regardless of whether or not it fails. The only party benefiting from the failure is my local dive shop who sold me the replacement. Unfortunately, the tester x-ed out all the marks on the cylinder marking it such that no one will fill it (unless I get my own compressor and fill it myself). My wife's tank (5 years old) also showed a minor crack, but it was within specs so it passed the hydro. If during the next hydro that crack has not increased then it will pass again, otherwise it too will be failed. James, six of your tanks failed! These things are supposed to last 30 years or more. I had to decommission three tanks back in 2011 only because they were made during the 1980's and their alloy was no longer acceptable. Apparently, in California those tanks could have been hydro'ed and accepted. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 7:27 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Tim, There were some cylinders that developed cracks years ago but there were triple the number that were rejected for false instrument reading on crack detection. The detector will say that a good neck is cracked if the thread has a line through the threads which is caused by the thread tap where it stops. You will see 4 lines through the treads caused by the 4 flutes of the thread tap. I challenged them when they rejected my tank and showed that by burnishing with a rotary wire brush in the threads that eliminated the tap finish marks. They tried the instrument again and hey presto it passed with flying colours. These guys are not engineers testing threads and it is in their interest to fail a cylinder. Hank, It does not matter if it is hydrogen or not but hydrogen is one of the most dangerous gases in that it can cause hydrogen embrittlement in higher tensile steels etc. Same rules will apply for the same pressure generally speaking as they need to meet DOT or ASME. CNG cylinders are too thin for going deep but there is an Argentinian crowd, Kioshi, who make big diameter steel cylinders. Trouble is to go deep they will not be buoyant. Rule of thumb Under 12 inches diameter any pipe will tend to sink. Best flotation devices are likely to be spherical. Chs, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2017 12:26 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Hank, What is the price for those 21x120 composite CNG tanks? Unrelated: for the first time in my diving history I have a scuba tank that just failed its hydro. Apparently a minor crack has appeared at the valve neck. This 12 year old, hardly used, aluminum 80 that came with my sub is now scrap metal, maybe worth $6. Darn. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 2:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth, What are you up to that you need a cng tank? Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hank, Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find. Keith T Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth, There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? Keith T Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Steve, Greg was referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick. I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi) Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Hank, I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water. If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers, Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is fabulous because you change the values for different materials. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true. I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical. If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) Then it will be awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg, That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver. But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 04:32:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 18:32:55 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <633999508.2309222.1499681901055@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> <957970997.1823597.1499649413660@mail.yahoo.com> <586680184.2153777.1499651632981@mail.yahoo.com> <1184662971.2129476.1499654990364@mail.yahoo.com> <633999508.2309222.1499681901055@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (phew, having trouble keeping up with all these) Hi Hank, You're totally right in that it probably wouldn't be that much of an issue and there is plenty of redundancy built in. Typically, the inner lining is good for about half the working pressure of the complete cylinder. The trouble is you can't quantify or inspect for it, and with dire consequences of a cylinder failure (the energy stored in even a full SCUBA tank is equivalent to a couple of pounds of TNT), everything is very cautious. The life expectancy of the composite cylinders I've dealt with (ie. breathing apparatus) is usually 10 years, sometimes 15 years - which is pretty arbitrary and is mostly dictated by a theoretical maximum number of pressure cycles, ie. eventual failure is by fatigue. Like most pressure vessels of that sort you don't get to take credit for doing only a tiny percentage of the maximum allowable cycles to extend the service life. The test for underwater use is also pretty arbitrary - submerge a couple of pressurised cylinders in salt water for 3 months and then see if they will handle ~4000 cycles to test pressure without failing. Hi Keith, I get new cylinders from a (high quality) factory in China - they're designed for breathing apparatus, and the 2 sizes with the required paperwork for design registration in Australia are 6.8L and 9L. Ie. ~1.6gal and 2gal - probably not hugely useful for a sub, but may save a bit of weight as an internal oxygen tank. They are pretty expensive - more than a similar sized SCUBA tank. Cheers, Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 8:18 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Steve, > That is pretty interesting, but I would think it would take a long time to > be an issue. The aluminum liner is extremely heavy duty in the order of > about an inch thick. The carbon fibre and epoxy layer over the aluminum > core is also about an inch thick. When the salt water enters the cracks > under pressure, does that mean the salt water is permanently trapped, or > does it drain out when on dry land? What is the life expectancy of a > composite scuba tank? What does the test consist of? > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:10 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Ah ok Hank, cool. > > The trouble with the composite tanks underwater is that when they are > pressurised they expand slightly and this can open any cracks in the epoxy > (which is only there to support the fibres giving tensile strength). If > you then take them underwater, the external pressure forces water into the > cracks, and it can then sit there and do weird things - like corroding the > interal alumninium liner. > > They are pretty robust though, and I destroyed 3 (albeit new) cylinders > after various saltwater and mechanical punishment, none of which failed > badly. Frequent hydrostatic tests was the best I could come up with > for seeing whether one is about to explode - obviously this is not ideal, > and there's no data on how quickly corrosion can reduce the strength of the > cylinder to the point of failure. > > There is some empirical data from composite SCUBA tanks in use over > time. The standards really don't go into much fine detail - they just > specify one (rather arbitrary) test to do for a cylinder to be used > underwater. > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 12:49 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Steve, > Greg was referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres > 3.25 inches thick. > I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy > modules. The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi) > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped? > I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components > wouldn't apply well to composite. > > I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some > testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit > scary, especially with salt water. If anyone is interested I can go into > more detail. > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is fabulous because you > change the values for different materials. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate > that? > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Very true. > I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super > critical. If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I > will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) Then it will be awesome to have > it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between > your feet. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow > diver. But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered > into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. If I end up > being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Hank, > > I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel > frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. > That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the > hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the > "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could > be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot > is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ > starboard pontoons. > > For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good > viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. > If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! > > Greg > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > Not a bad idea. I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary > 3000. I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018. I only bought > the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of > finding another machine like that in the Canadian prairies. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > > Hank, > > You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ > > Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd > > > Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd > > > > Greg C > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Greg, > Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even hardened and > tempered, but what does that mean? > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Greg, > I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching > tank. I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY > steel to press a hemispherical head. EE does not supply anything but > 516-70 . I can ask them but would need to source the material first. I > would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > > Hank, > > Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that > Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with > plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed > for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. > > Greg C > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test > > Alan, > That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that > stuff sticks like mad. > I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine. Either the gasket > thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. > > > On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster > & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do > with > my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had > thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it > didn't. > The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the > wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where > they came > out of the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue > that > they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc > insulation > than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe > goo), > 3M 5200 & polyurethane. > Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. > In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks > wet > but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't > like this > from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the > male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the > same. > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad__________________________ _____________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 07:37:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 11:37:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: <05e701d2f9ed$218ab6f0$64a024d0$@gmail.com> References: <534043.23114.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <006e01d2f9dc$4b5e2c70$e21a8550$@telus.net> <05e701d2f9ed$218ab6f0$64a024d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <948031156.3346862.1499773034150@mail.yahoo.com> Hugh,My idea is to use CNG tanks under pressure, (3,600 psi) ?so the wall thickness is not a concern. ?Sounds like Kieth should go with the composite tanks for H2Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 8:27 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv7103745893 #yiv7103745893 -- _filtered #yiv7103745893 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv7103745893 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv7103745893 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv7103745893 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv7103745893 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv7103745893 #yiv7103745893 p.yiv7103745893MsoNormal, #yiv7103745893 li.yiv7103745893MsoNormal, #yiv7103745893 div.yiv7103745893MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv7103745893 a:link, #yiv7103745893 span.yiv7103745893MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7103745893 a:visited, #yiv7103745893 span.yiv7103745893MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7103745893 p.yiv7103745893MsoAcetate, #yiv7103745893 li.yiv7103745893MsoAcetate, #yiv7103745893 div.yiv7103745893MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv7103745893 span.yiv7103745893EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7103745893 span.yiv7103745893EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7103745893 span.yiv7103745893BalloonTextChar {}#yiv7103745893 .yiv7103745893MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv7103745893 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv7103745893 div.yiv7103745893WordSection1 {}#yiv7103745893 Tim,There were some cylinders that developed cracks years ago but there were triple the number that were rejected for false instrument reading on crack detection.? The detector will say that a good neck is cracked if the thread has a line through the threads which is caused by the thread tap where it stops. ?You will see 4 lines through the treads caused by the? 4 flutes of the thread tap. ?I challenged them when they rejected my tank and showed that by burnishing with a rotary wire brush in the threads that eliminated the tap finish marks.? They tried the instrument again and hey presto it passed with flying colours.? These guys are not engineers testing threads and it is in their interest to fail a cylinder. ?Hank,? It does not matter if it is hydrogen or not but hydrogen is one of the most dangerous gases in that it can cause hydrogen embrittlement in higher tensile steels etc. ??Same rules will apply for the same pressure generally speaking as they need to meet DOT or ASME.?? CNG cylinders are too thin for going deep but there is an Argentinian crowd, Kioshi, who make big diameter steel cylinders.? Trouble is to go deep they will not be buoyant.? Rule of thumb Under 12 inches diameter any pipe will tend to sink.? Best flotation devices are likely to be spherical. ?Chs,? Hugh ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2017 12:26 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Hank,What is the price for those 21x120 composite CNG tanks?? Unrelated: for the first time in my diving history I have a scuba tank that just failed its hydro.? Apparently a minor crack has appeared at the valve neck.? This 12 year old, hardly used, aluminum 80 that came with my sub is now scrap metal, maybe worth $6.? Darn.Tim ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 2:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Kieth,What are you up to that you need a cng tank?Hank ?On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, ?Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find.? ?Keith T? ? ? ?Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone ?-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Kieth,There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. ?The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. ?There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? ?Keith T? ? ? ?Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone ?-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. ?I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. ?Cheers,Steve ?On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, ?I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. ?For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! ?Greg ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 07:59:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 11:59:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: References: <3F9A881C-F94A-4F3D-B911-232CFDDDACAE@yahoo.com> <120644914.2524097.1498477721390@mail.yahoo.com> <1468918824.1645662.1499618189785@mail.yahoo.com> <1467966758.1880112.1499620051564@mail.yahoo.com> <1988306001.1918368.1499620649044@mail.yahoo.com> <1174017875.1723559.1499624596168@mail.yahoo.com> <1442123784.1948627.1499628065164@mail.yahoo.com> <1922836102.1769562.1499630241525@mail.yahoo.com> <1972169548.1942107.1499630726403@mail.yahoo.com> <1117252073.1773043.1499631750059@mail.yahoo.com> <336993362.2005490.1499632296557@mail.yahoo.com> <957970997.1823597.1499649413660@mail.yahoo.com> <586680184.2153777.1499651632981@mail.yahoo.com> <1184662971.2129476.1499654990364@mail.yahoo.com> <633999508.2309222.1499681901055@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1301284817.3349524.1499774392694@mail.yahoo.com> Steve,Cng tanks have a life of 25 years, and as you said, very robust. ?Even buying brand new CNG tanks is cheaper than foam, I doubt I would buy new tanks but I would?certainly?want ?at least 10 years life left.I still want to continue exploring a way to reduce the cost of foam. ?CNG tanks are a last resort.Hank On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 2:33 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: (phew, having trouble keeping up with all these)Hi Hank,You're totally right in that it probably wouldn't be that much of an issue and there is plenty of redundancy built in.?? Typically, the?inner lining is good for about half? the working pressure of the complete cylinder.??The trouble is you can't quantify or inspect for it, and with dire consequences of a cylinder failure (the energy stored in even a full SCUBA tank is equivalent?to a couple of pounds of TNT), everything is very cautious. The?life expectancy of the composite cylinders I've dealt with?(ie. breathing apparatus) is usually 10 years, sometimes 15 years - which is?pretty arbitrary and?is?mostly dictated by a theoretical maximum number of pressure cycles, ie. eventual failure is by fatigue.? Like most pressure vessels of that sort you don't get to take credit for?doing only a tiny percentage of the maximum allowable cycles to extend the service life. The test for underwater use is also pretty arbitrary - submerge a couple of pressurised cylinders in salt water for 3 months and then?see if they will handle?~4000 cycles to test pressure without failing.?? Hi Keith,I get?new cylinders from a (high quality) factory in China - they're designed for breathing apparatus, and the 2 sizes with the required?paperwork for design registration in Australia are 6.8L and 9L.? Ie. ~1.6gal and 2gal - probably not hugely useful for a sub, but may save a bit of weight as an internal oxygen tank.? They are pretty expensive - more than a similar sized SCUBA tank. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 8:18 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Steve,That is pretty interesting, but I would think it would take a long time to be an issue.? The aluminum liner is extremely heavy duty in the order of about an inch thick. The carbon fibre and epoxy layer over the aluminum core is also about an inch thick. ? ?When the salt water enters the cracks under pressure, does that mean the salt water is permanently trapped, or does it drain out when on dry land?? What is the life expectancy of a composite scuba tank?? What does the test consist of?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:10 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ah ok Hank, cool. The trouble with the composite tanks underwater is that when they are pressurised they expand slightly and?this?can open?any?cracks in the epoxy (which is only there to support the fibres giving tensile strength).??If you then take them underwater, the external pressure forces water into the cracks, and it can then sit there and do weird things - like corroding the interal alumninium liner. They are pretty robust though, and I destroyed 3?(albeit new) cylinders after various saltwater and mechanical punishment, none of which?failed badly.? Frequent? hydrostatic tests was the best I could come up with for?seeing whether one is about to explode - obviously this is not ideal, and there's no data on?how quickly corrosion can reduce the strength of the cylinder?to the point of failure. There is some empirical data?from composite SCUBA tanks in use over time.??The standards really don't go into much fine detail - they just specify one (rather arbitrary) test to do for a cylinder to be used underwater. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 12:49 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules.? The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers,Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Not a bad idea.? I have lots of time, I still need to finish Elementary 3000.? I am not planning to buy heads until fall of 2018.? I only bought the vertical lathe because I got a SMOKIN deal and what are the chances of finding another ?machine like that in the Canadian prairies.?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 12:23 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, You may want to contact these guys before spending a lot of $$$ Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Australia Pressure Vessel Heads 2011 Pty Ltd | | | Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg,Hmmm, just googled EN 26 and it considered machinable even ?hardened and tempered, but what does that mean? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,I asked EE if they could make HY heads and they can but need a quenching tank.? I can not find a supplier that can supply large enough pieces of HY steel ?to press a hemispherical head.? EE does not supply anything but 516-70 .? I can ask them but would need to source the material first.? I would need to be sure I can even machine that material, I kinda doubt it? ?Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 10:36 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you know if EE can fabricate your hull from EN26 steel? The hull that Ron A. had fabricated was only 2.5" thick and went full ocean depth with plenty of safety factor. Using the same grade steel in a thickness designed for only 13,000 ft might save a lot of weight. Greg C From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Alan,That really turned out nice, how did you mould the polyurethane? that stuff sticks like mad.?I would leave the white gasket, it looks fine.? Either the gasket thickness is not even or the seat is not perfectly matched to the Lenz. On Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pressure tested my light to 1000 psi for an hour using the water blaster & no leaks! I didn't have a pressure relief valve in the system as I do with my air pressure set up & it was a pain getting the chamber lid off. I had thought the water blaster would have leaked a bit of pressure but it didn't. The sealing system for the wires was a 3 layered process; encapsulating the wires in the epoxy, then coating the insulation for an inch up from where they came out of? the epoxy, & over the epoxy with a 2 part heat activated pvc glue that they use on inflatable boats. This glue worked a lot better on the pvc insulation than several others I tried like E61000 (supposed to be better than shoe goo), 3M 5200 & polyurethane. Over this, to tidy it up & act as a cable support, I moulded polyurethane. In the attached photos the white ptfe gasket that the lens sits on looks wet but it is just the compression of the lens against the gasket. I don't like this from a cosmetic point & may change it. The 2 objects with the light are the male mould for the polyurethane cable support & the silicone mould for the same. Alan Sent from my iPad__________________________ _____________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 08:41:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 12:41:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] aluminum 80s In-Reply-To: <009701d2fa09$12c97d10$385c7730$@telus.net> References: <534043.23114.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <006e01d2f9dc$4b5e2c70$e21a8550$@telus.net> <009701d2fa09$12c97d10$385c7730$@telus.net> Message-ID: <361796210.3016275.1499776902294@mail.yahoo.com> My tanks didn't fail- they were just made before 1990. Some dive shops will not fill these tanks anymore even with a current hydro/vip.There are also recommendations now to discard aluminum tanks after 15 years regardless of the date of manufacture and whether they test good or not. It's not the law- it's just a recommendation for tank owners to consider. Here's a good article on the subject- Aging Aluminum Tanks: Undercurrent 03/2000 | | | | | | | | | | | Aging Aluminum Tanks: Undercurrent 03/2000 'Aging Aluminum Tanks -- is the tank on your back likely to blow up?' from Undercurrent March, 2000 issue | | | | From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test #yiv9968982155 #yiv9968982155 -- _filtered #yiv9968982155 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9968982155 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9968982155 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9968982155 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9968982155 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv9968982155 #yiv9968982155 p.yiv9968982155MsoNormal, #yiv9968982155 li.yiv9968982155MsoNormal, #yiv9968982155 div.yiv9968982155MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9968982155 a:link, #yiv9968982155 span.yiv9968982155MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9968982155 a:visited, #yiv9968982155 span.yiv9968982155MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9968982155 p.yiv9968982155MsoAcetate, #yiv9968982155 li.yiv9968982155MsoAcetate, #yiv9968982155 div.yiv9968982155MsoAcetate {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv9968982155 span.yiv9968982155BalloonTextChar {}#yiv9968982155 span.yiv9968982155EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9968982155 span.yiv9968982155EmailStyle20 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9968982155 span.yiv9968982155EmailStyle21 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9968982155 .yiv9968982155MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9968982155 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv9968982155 div.yiv9968982155WordSection1 {}#yiv9968982155 Thanks, Hugh.This is interesting.? I will look into it.? The local hydro static firm tests the tanks for a single fee regardless of whether or not it fails.? The only party benefiting from the failure is my local dive shop who sold me the replacement.? Unfortunately, the tester x-ed out all the marks on the cylinder marking it such that no one will fill it (unless I get my own compressor and fill it myself).? My wife's tank (5 years old) also showed a minor crack, but it was within specs so it passed the hydro.? If during the next hydro that crack has not increased then it will pass again, otherwise it too will be failed. ?James, six of your tanks failed!? These things are supposed to last 30 years or more.? I had to decommission three tanks back in 2011 only because they were made during the 1980's and their alloy was no longer acceptable.? Apparently, in California those tanks could have been hydro'ed and accepted.? ?Tim ? ? ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 7:27 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Tim,There were some cylinders that developed cracks years ago but there were triple the number that were rejected for false instrument reading on crack detection.? The detector will say that a good neck is cracked if the thread has a line through the threads which is caused by the thread tap where it stops. ?You will see 4 lines through the treads caused by the? 4 flutes of the thread tap. ?I challenged them when they rejected my tank and showed that by burnishing with a rotary wire brush in the threads that eliminated the tap finish marks.? They tried the instrument again and hey presto it passed with flying colours.? These guys are not engineers testing threads and it is in their interest to fail a cylinder. ?Hank,? It does not matter if it is hydrogen or not but hydrogen is one of the most dangerous gases in that it can cause hydrogen embrittlement in higher tensile steels etc. ??Same rules will apply for the same pressure generally speaking as they need to meet DOT or ASME.?? CNG cylinders are too thin for going deep but there is an Argentinian crowd, Kioshi, who make big diameter steel cylinders.? Trouble is to go deep they will not be buoyant.? Rule of thumb Under 12 inches diameter any pipe will tend to sink.? Best flotation devices are likely to be spherical. ?Chs,? Hugh ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2017 12:26 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Hank,What is the price for those 21x120 composite CNG tanks?? Unrelated: for the first time in my diving history I have a scuba tank that just failed its hydro.? Apparently a minor crack has appeared at the valve neck.? This 12 year old, hardly used, aluminum 80 that came with my sub is now scrap metal, maybe worth $6.? Darn.Tim ?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 2:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Kieth,What are you up to that you need a cng tank?Hank ?On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, ?Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find.? ?Keith T? ? ? ?Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone ?-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Kieth,There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. ?The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. ?There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? ?Keith T? ? ? ?Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone ?-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Steve,Greg was?referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick.?I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. ?The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi)?Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Hank,I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped?? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. ?I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water.? If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. ?Cheers,Steve ?On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is?fabulous because you change the values for different materials. ?Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Very true.I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical.? If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) ? Then it will be?awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. ?From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test ?Greg,That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver.? But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel.? If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that.Hank ?On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, ?I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. ?For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! ?Greg ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 08:55:49 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 12:55:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine References: <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601@mail.yahoo.com> Hello PsubbbersHere is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigthLEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 | | | | | | | | | | | LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... | | | | Best wishesJuergen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 10:28:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 07:28:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test In-Reply-To: Ujghdp7vioQOBUjgidabla References: <534043.23114.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <006e01d2f9dc$4b5e2c70$e21a8550$@telus.net> Ujghdp7vioQOBUjgidabla Message-ID: <002501d2fa51$efddc830$cf995890$@telus.net> Thanks, Hank. The prices sound good enough. Will look into them further. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 6:05 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Tim, The tanks that are still in certification are 350 each and the ones that are 2017 are 175 each. Weird about your tank. Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 6:26 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hank, What is the price for those 21x120 composite CNG tanks? Unrelated: for the first time in my diving history I have a scuba tank that just failed its hydro. Apparently a minor crack has appeared at the valve neck. This 12 year old, hardly used, aluminum 80 that came with my sub is now scrap metal, maybe worth $6. Darn. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 2:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth, What are you up to that you need a cng tank? Hank On Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 AM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hank, Thanks for the info, I'll check out Evil Bay and see what I can find. Keith T Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/10/17 2:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Kieth, There are CNG tanks on Ebay, with some sellers that have lots of tanks that are still in service. The largest composite CNG tank I have come across is 21 inches OD by 120 inches long. There is a seller close to Salt Lake City Utah with a pretty big inventory. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:24 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Where are you guy sourcing the CNG tanks? Are larger diameter tanks available? Keith T Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/9/17 7:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Steve, Greg was referring to steel cng storage tanks that are 48 inch ID spheres 3.25 inches thick. I have also been looking at composite cng type 4 tanks as buoyancy modules. The tanks would be at full pressure (3,600 psi) Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 8:44 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Hank, I was under the impression your CNG spheres are composite/fibre-wrapped? I presume you're aware that using a model based on metal components wouldn't apply well to composite. I think I posted about it, but I've done a lot of research and some testing on using composite cylinders underwater and it's potentially a bit scary, especially with salt water. If anyone is interested I can go into more detail. Cheers, Steve On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:53 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I use the calculator on Psubs written by Alec, it is fabulous because you change the values for different materials. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:17 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I still think that a CNG sphere will go way deeper. How did you calculate that? _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Very true. I do love the idea, but, weight is a real killer, every pound is super critical. If I go with a 7500 footer then the buoyancy is cheap because I will use CNG tanks, don't tell Sean ;-) Then it will be awesome to have it rotate, just think you can rotate so the port is pointing down between your feet. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 2:26 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Yes....BUT...being able to get out on your own is never a bad thing. _____ From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Test Greg, That was my original plan, I think it is a great idea for a shallow diver. But if your going real deep then chances are it will be lowered into the water from a boat or barge, so need for the swivel. If I end up being less ambitious, and build an Elementary 7,500 I will do just that. Hank On Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:57 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hank, I was thinking that it might be possible to mount a sphere within a steel frame that allows it to swivel up and down like a gun turret in a bomber. That way, the forward viewport could be incorporated into the hatch and the hatch/ port could be in the "up" position to get in and out and then in the "down" position during the dive for viewing. All internal components could be mounted on an internal frame that hangs from a bearing so that the pilot is always upright. The main ballast system could be a pair of port/ starboard pontoons. For a shallow diving sub, the hatch/ port could be a large dome for good viewing. A self draining "sail" could also be added around the hatch/ port. If Darth Vader had a sub it would look like that one! Greg _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 11:43:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 17:43:02 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine In-Reply-To: <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1499787782848.3631554.607a33f061623f1026e419ca43f8812c4b187363@spica.telekom.de> Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Psubbbers Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... Best wishes Juergen ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 11:46:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:46:57 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Submarine_for_sale?= Message-ID: <20170711154657.20911.qmail@server268.com> Hey everyone, I need to clear out my shop to make more room. I have a partially built K-350 project that I would like to pass on to someone and have decided to lower the price just to get it out of the shop. It is a finished hull with cart to roll it around in the shop. The hull has veiwports and hatch already installed and also comes with the battery pods. I am have lowered the price to $15,000 and would like to have it out of the shop by the end of this month. E-mail me at swaters at piscessub.com Thank you! From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 12:07:37 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 17:07:37 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine In-Reply-To: <1499787782848.3631554.607a33f061623f1026e419ca43f8812c4b187363@spica.telekom.de> References: <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601@mail.yahoo.com> <1499787782848.3631554.607a33f061623f1026e419ca43f8812c4b187363@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: Jesus. "I can hear the bathtub cracking". Got to admire the guys balls, but suggest we distance ourselves from this. Or maybe someone needs to tell them what a deathtrap it is. Next Monday the bathtub will probably implode. On 11 July 2017 at 16:43, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. > > > > A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the > windows of such a trash submarine > > will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. > > > > At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: > > Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. > > And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine > > Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 > > Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > Hello Psubbbers > Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the > deep and the importance of the drop weigth > LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! > #5 > > > LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! > #5 > Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, > allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... > > > Best wishes > Juergen > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 12:43:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 16:43:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine In-Reply-To: <1499787782848.3631554.607a33f061623f1026e419ca43f8812c4b187363@spica.telekom.de> References: <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601@mail.yahoo.com> <1499787782848.3631554.607a33f061623f1026e419ca43f8812c4b187363@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <142905006.3160312.1499791411025@mail.yahoo.com> Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident) ?we all get closer to being shut down. From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine ?Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. ?A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. ?At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. ?vbr Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarineDatum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hello PsubbbersHere is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigthLEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5? | | | | ? | ? | | | | | | LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... | ? | | | ?Best wishesJuergen?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 13:35:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 17:35:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine In-Reply-To: <1499787782848.3631554.607a33f061623f1026e419ca43f8812c4b187363@spica.telekom.de> References: <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601@mail.yahoo.com> <1499787782848.3631554.607a33f061623f1026e419ca43f8812c4b187363@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1287772755.3249566.1499794548075@mail.yahoo.com> Notice how they title the video with the word "death" in it. ?Almost as if they are proud of the drama. The problem is two things- not sticking to established principles and wanting to talk about the drama. I dived my sub in Lake Anna for almost ten years from a certain marina. In 2006, I told some fellow psubbers about the location as a possible convention site. They volunteered to "talk" to the owner to set it up?(big mistake). Next thing I knew, the owner told me that a group told him about all the safety features that were needed to avoid the "danger". Not wanting the "danger" at his marina, he decided not to allow subs there anymore, including mine. I was the one that got permission from the Army Corps to use Raystown Lake instead. It was no problem at all. I didn't talk about drama. I answered their questions. They said yes and gave me free use of the visitor center to boot. We had about 6 subs that year and had a great time. I kept my sub at Raystown for another two years diving it with no problems (or attention). Today the Army Corps requires a lengthy process to grant the same permission. Some where along the way they changed their minds about submarines. It is both good and bad. Good because they are requiring some safety items that will weed out the nuts. Bad, because now we are "on the radar". Today we already have fewer places to dive than just a few years ago. ?Psubs is cool because fabricators can share less expensive methods for construction while still following the guidelines. A lot of dangerous practices for the sake of "innovation" and a lot a drama can ruin it for everyone.? Greg From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine ?Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. ?A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. ?At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. ?vbr Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarineDatum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hello PsubbbersHere is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigthLEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5? | | | | ? | ? | | | | | | LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... | ? | | | ?Best wishesJuergen?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 14:24:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:24:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 copyright infringement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good spot Brian. Did you report it to eBay? I notice that the auction has been yanked. ~ Doug On 7/7/17, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Someone is selling K350 plans on eBay. Not sure who here can address it, but > thought the intellectual property was given to psubs > > > Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/222574004655 > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 14:34:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 11:34:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Message-ID: <865689.41107.bm@smtp105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Everyone, If you watch these guys other videos you will see they do all kinds of crazy/stupid stuff in the vein of "Jackass" and other youtubers, to drive views and create income from monitization. Unfortunately we humans love conflict, danger, drama and entertainment, thus feeding this kind of reckless behavior. Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/11/17 10:35 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Notice how they title the video with the word "death" in it. ?Almost as if they are proud of the drama. The problem is two things- not sticking to established principles and wanting to talk about the drama. I dived my sub in Lake Anna for almost ten years from a certain marina. In 2006, I told some fellow psubbers about the location as a possible convention site. They volunteered to "talk" to the owner to set it up?(big mistake). Next thing I knew, the owner told me that a group told him about all the safety features that were needed to avoid the "danger". Not wanting the "danger" at his marina, he decided not to allow subs there anymore, including mine. I was the one that got permission from the Army Corps to use Raystown Lake instead. It was no problem at all. I didn't talk about drama. I answered their questions. They said yes and gave me free use of the visitor center to boot. We had about 6 subs that year and had a great time. I kept my sub at Raystown for another two years diving it with no problems (or attention). Today the Army Corps requires a lengthy process to grant the same permission. Some where along the way they changed their minds about submarines. It is both good and bad. Good because they are requiring some safety items that will weed out the nuts. Bad, because now we are "on the radar". Today we already have fewer places to dive than just a few years ago. ?Psubs is cool because fabricators can share less expensive methods for construction while still following the guidelines. A lot of dangerous practices for the sake of "innovation" and a lot a drama can ruin it for everyone.? Greg From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine ? Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. ? A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. ? At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? Hello Psubbbers Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 ? ?? LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... ? ? Best wishes Juergen ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 16:32:34 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 08:32:34 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine In-Reply-To: <1287772755.3249566.1499794548075@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601@mail.yahoo.com> <1499787782848.3631554.607a33f061623f1026e419ca43f8812c4b187363@spica.telekom.de> <1287772755.3249566.1499794548075@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8A35E56E-E3C5-4F36-A234-6100BC0DD29F@yahoo.com> Some time ago we were discussing the "Chinese oil barrel submarine" & didn't think it safe to 15ft let alone the 30ft he thought it was capable of. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CGu6tpYpXLE I got in contact with the builder via the reporter who had written the story. The reporter said he had grave concerns at the time. I conveyed some basic safety procedures like testing unmanned, & putting in a flood valve. He looked at our site & was very impressed & appreciated our concern. I believe some psubbers also contacted an American teenager who was building out of a plastic drain pipe. Perhaps one of the European Psubbers could get in contact with these guys. I thought at first this must have been an ambient sub, but looks like a 1atm bathtub. In the video above, the oil barrel submarine runs in to trouble! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 12/07/2017, at 5:35 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Notice how they title the video with the word "death" in it. Almost as if they are proud of the drama. The problem is two things- not sticking to established principles and wanting to talk about the drama. > > I dived my sub in Lake Anna for almost ten years from a certain marina. In 2006, I told some fellow psubbers about the location as a possible convention site. They volunteered to "talk" to the owner to set it up (big mistake). Next thing I knew, the owner told me that a group told him about all the safety features that were needed to avoid the "danger". Not wanting the "danger" at his marina, he decided not to allow subs there anymore, including mine. > > I was the one that got permission from the Army Corps to use Raystown Lake instead. It was no problem at all. I didn't talk about drama. I answered their questions. They said yes and gave me free use of the visitor center to boot. We had about 6 subs that year and had a great time. I kept my sub at Raystown for another two years diving it with no problems (or attention). > > Today the Army Corps requires a lengthy process to grant the same permission. Some where along the way they changed their minds about submarines. It is both good and bad. Good because they are requiring some safety items that will weed out the nuts. Bad, because now we are "on the radar". Today we already have fewer places to dive than just a few years ago. > > > > Psubs is cool because fabricators can share less expensive methods for construction while still following the guidelines. A lot of dangerous practices for the sake of "innovation" and a lot a drama can ruin it for everyone. > > Greg > > > From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine > > > Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. > > A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine > will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. > > At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: > Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. > And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. > > vbr Carsten > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine > Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 > Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > Hello Psubbbers > Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth > LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 > > > > LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 > Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... > > > Best wishes > Juergen > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 20:38:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 20:38:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine In-Reply-To: <142905006.3160312.1499791411025@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601@mail.yahoo.com> <1499787782848.3631554.607a33f061623f1026e419ca43f8812c4b187363@spica.telekom.de> <142905006.3160312.1499791411025@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005001d2faa7$20242d90$606c88b0$@indy.rr.com> So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn). Steve From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:44 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident) we all get closer to being shut down. _____ From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Psubbbers Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... Best wishes Juergen ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 407 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 21:13:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 21:13:56 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Message-ID: >>So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn). I would say that there is an ethical obligation to do so. -- -River J. Dolfi Virus-free. www.avg.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 11 21:15:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 21:15:18 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Message-ID: <15d345d53d6-c0d-806@webjas-vae216.srv.aolmail.net> I was just going to ask you guys about these people! I assume they are not members here, but I would say it's part of our "mission" to reach out and educate them and have them join this group. I think what they are doing is amazing and ambitious, and we should encourage what they are doing but help them make the sub safer before they go about injuring themselves and giving a bad images on personal homebuilt submersibles. Here's the link to contacting them through the website and I highly recommend everybody to contact them into joining this group so we can help them with their project. http://thereallifeguys.de/kontaktformular/ -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Jul 11, 2017 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn). Steve From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:44 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident) we all get closer to being shut down. From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Psubbbers Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... Best wishes Juergen ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 407 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 03:58:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:58:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine In-Reply-To: <15d345d53d6-c0d-806@webjas-vae216.srv.aolmail.net> References: <15d345d53d6-c0d-806@webjas-vae216.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <876002022.4131522.1499846288340@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Ludwig, When I first saw these guys in the first video, I thought the same. ?When I look at the latest video,?I get the feeling this is just a joke to them and they are seeking youtube subscribers. ?They don't seem interested in being responsible at all, and I doubt they will listen to reason. ?We just have to hope they move on to their next attention seeking adventure before they get hurt.Hank On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:15 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I was just going to ask you guys about these people! ? I assume they are not members here, but I would say it's part of our "mission" to reach out and educate them and have them join this group. ?I think what they are doing is amazing and ambitious, and we should encourage what they are doing but help them make the sub safer before they go about injuring themselves and giving a bad images on personal homebuilt submersibles. ?? Here's the link to contacting them through the website and I highly recommend everybody to contact them into joining this group so we can help them with their project.http://thereallifeguys.de/kontaktformular/ -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Jul 11, 2017 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine #yiv4201391177 #yiv4201391177AOLMsgPart_1.yiv42013911771.yiv42013911772_1d895ddb-42b0-4a97-b385-6338fc017cf1 td{color:black;} _filtered #yiv4201391177 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4201391177 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4201391177 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4201391177 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4201391177 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody p.yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal, #yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody li.yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal, #yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody div.yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody h2 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:18.0pt;}#yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody a:link, #yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody span.yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody a:visited, #yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody span.yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody p.yiv4201391177aolmail_msonormal0, #yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody li.yiv4201391177aolmail_msonormal0, #yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody div.yiv4201391177aolmail_msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody span.yiv4201391177aolmail_Heading2Char {color:#2F5496;}#yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody span.yiv4201391177aolmail_EmailStyle19 {color:windowtext;}#yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody .yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv4201391177 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv4201391177 .yiv4201391177aolReplacedBody div.yiv4201391177aolmail_WordSection1 {}So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn). ?Steve?From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:44 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine?Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident) ?we all get closer to being shut down.?From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine??Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. ?A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. ?At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. ?vbr Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarineDatum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hello PsubbbersHere is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigthLEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5? | | | | ? | ? | | | | | | LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... | ? | | | ?Best wishesJuergen?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 407 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 04:26:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:26:33 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine In-Reply-To: <876002022.4131522.1499846288340@mail.yahoo.com> References: <15d345d53d6-c0d-806@webjas-vae216.srv.aolmail.net> <876002022.4131522.1499846288340@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009b01d2fae8$91bb17c0$b5314740$@nl> Yep, a videoweblog it the thing for a 12 to 25 year old. They even earn money when they have a lot of followers. Some will take risks for that. Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: woensdag 12 juli 2017 9:58 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Hi Ludwig, When I first saw these guys in the first video, I thought the same. When I look at the latest video, I get the feeling this is just a joke to them and they are seeking youtube subscribers. They don't seem interested in being responsible at all, and I doubt they will listen to reason. We just have to hope they move on to their next attention seeking adventure before they get hurt. Hank On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:15 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: I was just going to ask you guys about these people! I assume they are not members here, but I would say it's part of our "mission" to reach out and educate them and have them join this group. I think what they are doing is amazing and ambitious, and we should encourage what they are doing but help them make the sub safer before they go about injuring themselves and giving a bad images on personal homebuilt submersibles. Here's the link to contacting them through the website and I highly recommend everybody to contact them into joining this group so we can help them with their project. http://thereallifeguys.de/kontaktformular/ -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Tue, Jul 11, 2017 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn). Steve From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:44 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident) we all get closer to being shut down. _____ From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles " To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Psubbbers Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Image removed by sender. LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... Best wishes Juergen ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 07:39:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 11:39:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT References: <1725346845.4289259.1499859585646.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1725346845.4289259.1499859585646@mail.yahoo.com> Pete,I was mistaken when I said you can push the window frames out to get more in. ?I was looking at my K350 CT yesterday and forgot that the port sits in a larger dia frame than I remembered. ?Gamma has ?a flat ring, making it smaller. ?It probably would be a bugger to weld them in, if even possible.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 09:54:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 13:54:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine In-Reply-To: <1499787782848.3631554.607a33f061623f1026e419ca43f8812c4b187363@spica.telekom.de> References: <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1311215186.4565262.1499777749601@mail.yahoo.com> <1499787782848.3631554.607a33f061623f1026e419ca43f8812c4b187363@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1818885352.5988792.1499867645907@mail.yahoo.com> The video shows enthusiastic amateurs with no idea of the physics involved in the development of submarines.? I hope there will be no serious accident.? As I see it is importat to show that this is a stupid idea to build a submarine with a bathtub and to have a record of what can happen so nobody comes to the same idea again.There are already countries where private submariens are prohibited and need an extra permit. None because somebody died constructing such an device, in Austria is still? a law after the second world war and in Colombia is because there are people consuming cocaine and need constat suply that is done in part per submarine.Best wishesJuergen "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" schrieb am 10:45 Dienstag, 11.Juli 2017: ?Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. ?A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. ?At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. ?vbr Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarineDatum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hello PsubbbersHere is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigthLEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5? | | | | ? | ? | | | | | | LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... | ? | | | ?Best wishesJuergen?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 10:46:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:46:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Message-ID: <15d3744417d-1bf5-115f@webjas-vab150.srv.aolmail.net> I have a feeling they will be sticking to this adventure for a while. In the last video they had, they dove it down to 6 meters but I don't think they are planning on diving beyond 10 meters (The have it attached to a float on the surface) I already sent them a message but I think everybody should because since they are popular I have a feeling it's going to encourage some more people to do what they are doing. Does anybody know what the strength of those tubes are? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jul 12, 2017 3:02 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Hi Ludwig, When I first saw these guys in the first video, I thought the same. When I look at the latest video, I get the feeling this is just a joke to them and they are seeking youtube subscribers. They don't seem interested in being responsible at all, and I doubt they will listen to reason. We just have to hope they move on to their next attention seeking adventure before they get hurt. Hank On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:15 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I was just going to ask you guys about these people! I assume they are not members here, but I would say it's part of our "mission" to reach out and educate them and have them join this group. I think what they are doing is amazing and ambitious, and we should encourage what they are doing but help them make the sub safer before they go about injuring themselves and giving a bad images on personal homebuilt submersibles. Here's the link to contacting them through the website and I highly recommend everybody to contact them into joining this group so we can help them with their project. http://thereallifeguys.de/kontaktformular/ -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Jul 11, 2017 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn). Steve From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:44 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident) we all get closer to being shut down. From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Psubbbers Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... Best wishes Juergen ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 407 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 12:03:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 18:03:48 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine In-Reply-To: <15d3744417d-1bf5-115f@webjas-vab150.srv.aolmail.net> References: <15d3744417d-1bf5-115f@webjas-vab150.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <1499875428186.4021823.1c0503dc2b038d8c535626ccb577587d9cee7fc6@spica.telekom.de> The bathtub itself is mabe not the problem. But look at the outfitting.. Imagine seating under a hatch, flat and made from plywood. Say 0,45 x 0,6 meter or 0,24 m2 Means a waterpressure of 240 Kg (500 pound) per meter or 1,44 ts at 6 meter deep. Question - how many of you would like to seat under a sheet of plywood and somebody put 1,5 ts of lead bars on it? In the center of the plywood a hole with a plastic pipe periskop made of material for rain drain pipes.. Never designed for any pressure. I think this guys will not be intesst to build a real psub. A real psub will be safe - and the video will be just shared by some 100 - 500 psubers in the world. And not 100.000 of kids. I think they want to be build something looking unsafe. And the best way to do is building something unsafe. Carsten -32 years of accident free submarine operations, okay.. somethimes it was tight..- -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Datum: 2017-07-12T16:49:46+0200 Von: "via Personal_Submersibles" An: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" I have a feeling they will be sticking to this adventure for a while. In the last video they had, they dove it down to 6 meters but I don't think they are planning on diving beyond 10 meters (The have it attached to a float on the surface) I already sent them a message but I think everybody should because since they are popular I have a feeling it's going to encourage some more people to do what they are doing. Does anybody know what the strength of those tubes are? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jul 12, 2017 3:02 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Hi Ludwig, When I first saw these guys in the first video, I thought the same. When I look at the latest video, I get the feeling this is just a joke to them and they are seeking youtube subscribers. They don't seem interested in being responsible at all, and I doubt they will listen to reason. We just have to hope they move on to their next attention seeking adventure before they get hurt. Hank On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:15 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I was just going to ask you guys about these people! I assume they are not members here, but I would say it's part of our "mission" to reach out and educate them and have them join this group. I think what they are doing is amazing and ambitious, and we should encourage what they are doing but help them make the sub safer before they go about injuring themselves and giving a bad images on personal homebuilt submersibles. Here's the link to contacting them through the website and I highly recommend everybody to contact them into joining this group so we can help them with their project. http://thereallifeguys.de/kontaktformular/ -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Tue, Jul 11, 2017 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn). Steve From: Personal_Submersibles [ mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:44 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident) we all get closer to being shut down. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Hello Psubbbers Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 [Image removed by sender.] LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... Best wishes Juergen _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 13:30:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 13:30:23 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Message-ID: <4179E568-80CC-4AF3-8E5C-4092F02D69B4@snyderemail.com> I have been following the conversation about the bathtub sub with definite interest. Thank you Juergen for sharing it. I definitely agree with the though raised by River and Steve that we may have a moral or ethical obligation to at least try to inform them about the serious danger of their boat. Ultimately I agree with Ludwig, Hank and Carsten that they really won't care about safety standards. As Hank suggested it does appear to be sort of a "joke" to them. I think that is accurate. In regards to "informing" people interested in this hobby, I definitely think we would be the right group to do it. I am currently the national chairman of the Federation of State medical Boards. We are a national organization created by individual state medical boards to create a forum to ensure and promote patient safety through appropriate licensing and discipline of United States physicians. In fact we have no specific authority granted by government or otherwise but we have 112 year history of creating work groups, coming to consensus and then creating "best practices" documents that gets distributed back to our state medical Boards. Very often, the documents that we create become individual state law without any changes but again this is only because the people receiving them respect the work that is done by the group and understand that lots of really informed people have come together to create something that protects patients. In this regard, PSUBS would be the ideal group to come up with guidelines for safety when building. If nothing else, it may help us down the road if regulation is considered to say "we don't need government. We already have a policy". Or if a policy IS enforced by government, maybe our policy could be considered and adopted which would at least allow us to control the conversation. All of this is really just a long way to say "yes. I think it is a good idea." At least we could then point to our guidelines when we approach guys like the bathtub builders. Just a thought. Thanks Greg. > On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The bathtub itself is mabe not the problem. But look at the outfitting.. > > Imagine seating under a hatch, flat and made from plywood. Say 0,45 x 0,6 meter or 0,24 m2 > Means a waterpressure of 240 Kg (500 pound) per meter or 1,44 ts at 6 meter deep. > > Question - how many of you would like to seat under a sheet of plywood and somebody put 1,5 ts of lead bars on it? > In the center of the plywood a hole with a plastic pipe periskop made of material for rain drain pipes.. Never designed for any pressure. > > I think this guys will not be intesst to build a real psub. > A real psub will be safe - and the video will be just shared by some 100 - 500 psubers in the world. > And not 100.000 of kids. I think they want to be build something looking unsafe. And the best way to do is building something unsafe. > > Carsten -32 years of accident free submarine operations, okay.. somethimes it was tight..- > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine > Datum: 2017-07-12T16:49:46+0200 > Von: "via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > > > > I have a feeling they will be sticking to this adventure for a while. In the last video they had, they dove it down to 6 meters but I don't think they are planning on diving beyond 10 meters (The have it attached to a float on the surface) I already sent them a message but I think everybody should because since they are popular I have a feeling it's going to encourage some more people to do what they are doing. > Does anybody know what the strength of those tubes are? > > -Ludwig > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wed, Jul 12, 2017 3:02 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine > > Hi Ludwig, > > When I first saw these guys in the first video, I thought the same. When I look at the latest video, > I get the feeling this is just a joke to them and they are seeking youtube subscribers. They don't seem interested in being responsible at all, and I doubt they will listen to reason. We just have to hope they move on to their next attention seeking adventure before they get hurt. > Hank > > On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:15 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I was just going to ask you guys about these people! > > I assume they are not members here, but I would say it's part of our "mission" to reach out and educate them and have them join this group. I think what they are doing is amazing and ambitious, and we should encourage what they are doing but help them make the sub safer before they go about injuring themselves and giving a bad images on personal homebuilt submersibles. > > Here's the link to contacting them through the website and I highly recommend everybody to contact them into joining this group so we can help them with their project. > http://thereallifeguys.de/kontaktformular/ > > > -Ludwig > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Tue, Jul 11, 2017 7:38 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine > > So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn). > > Steve > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:44 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine > > Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident) we all get closer to being shut down. > > From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine > > > Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. > > A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine > will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. > > At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: > Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. > And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. > > vbr Carsten > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine > Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 > Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > Hello Psubbbers > Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth > LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 > > > > > LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 > Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... > > > Best wishes > Juergen > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 13:55:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 12:55:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Message-ID: <201707121754.v6CHspYY025294@whoweb.com> Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates. Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an "Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation, would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The safety officer from my company ?(Pisces VI) is on the board as well as alot of very smart under water professionals. Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/12/17 12:30 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform I have been following the conversation about the bathtub sub with definite interest. Thank you Juergen for sharing it. I definitely agree with the though raised by River and Steve that we may have a moral or ethical obligation to at least try to inform them about the serious danger of their boat. ?Ultimately I agree with Ludwig, Hank and Carsten that they really won't care about safety standards. As Hank suggested it does appear to be sort of a "joke" to them. I think that is accurate.? In regards to "informing" people interested in this hobby, I definitely think we would be the right group to do it. I am currently the national chairman of the Federation of State medical Boards. We are a national organization created by individual state medical boards to create a forum to ensure and promote patient safety through appropriate licensing and discipline of United States physicians. In fact we have no specific authority granted by government or otherwise but we have 112 year history of creating work groups, coming to consensus and then creating "best practices" documents that gets distributed back to our state medical Boards.? Very often, the documents that we create become individual state law without any changes but again this is only because the people receiving them respect the work that is done by the group and understand that lots of really informed people have come together to create something that protects patients. ? In this regard, PSUBS would be the ideal group to come up with guidelines for safety when building.?If nothing else, it may help us down the road if regulation is considered to say "we don't need government. We already have a policy". ?Or if a policy IS enforced by government, maybe our policy could be considered and adopted which would at least allow us to control the conversation.? All of this is really just a long way to say "yes. I think it is a good idea."?At least we could then point to our guidelines when we approach guys like the bathtub builders. ? Just a thought.?ThanksGreg.? On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? The bathtub itself is mabe not the problem. But look at the outfitting.. ? Imagine seating under a hatch, flat and made from plywood. Say 0,45 x 0,6 meter or 0,24 m2 Means a waterpressure of 240 Kg (500 pound) per meter or 1,44 ts at 6 meter deep. ? Question - how many of you would like to seat under a sheet of plywood and somebody put 1,5 ts of lead bars on it? In the center of the plywood a hole with a plastic pipe periskop made of material for rain drain pipes.. Never designed for any pressure. ? I think this guys will not be intesst to build a real psub. A real psub will be safe - and the video will be just shared by some 100 - 500 psubers in the world. And not 100.000 of kids. I think they want to be build something looking unsafe. And the best way to do is building something unsafe. ? Carsten????? -32 years of accident free submarine operations, okay.. somethimes it was tight..- ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Datum: 2017-07-12T16:49:46+0200 Von: "via Personal_Submersibles" An: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" ? ? ? I have a feeling they will be sticking to this adventure for a while. ?In the last video they had, they dove it down to 6 meters but I don't think they are planning on diving beyond 10 meters (The have it attached to a float on the surface) ?I already sent them a message but I think everybody should ?because since they are popular I have a feeling it's going to encourage some more people to do what they are doing. ? Does anybody know what the strength of those tubes are? ? ? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jul 12, 2017 3:02 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Hi Ludwig, ? When I first saw these guys in the first video, I thought the same. ?When I look at the latest video,? I get the feeling this is just a joke to them and they are seeking youtube subscribers. ?They don't seem interested in being responsible at all, and I doubt they will listen to reason. ?We just have to hope they move on to their next attention seeking adventure before they get hurt. Hank On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:15 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I was just going to ask you guys about these people! ? I assume they are not members here, but I would say it's part of our "mission" to reach out and educate them and have them join this group. ?I think what they are doing is amazing and ambitious, and we should encourage what they are doing but help them make the sub safer before they go about injuring themselves and giving a bad images on personal homebuilt submersibles. ?? ? Here's the link to contacting them through the website and I highly recommend everybody to contact them into joining this group so we can help them with their project. http://thereallifeguys.de/kontaktformular/ ? ? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Jul 11, 2017 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn). ? Steve ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:44 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine ? Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident) ?we all get closer to being shut down. ? From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine ? ? Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. ? A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. ? At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? Hello Psubbbers Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 ? ? ? LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... ? ? Best wishes Juergen ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 15:57:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 07:57:50 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <201707121754.v6CHspYY025294@whoweb.com> References: <201707121754.v6CHspYY025294@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <30331F77-B010-4DB2-8C09-0088DE6F4F92@yahoo.com> Scott, I met Will at the Underwater Intervention Convention 3 years ago, & he told me that authorities were pressing him for a set of rules / guidelines for managing personal submersibles. He was resisting having to do this, & it looks like he has finally been pushed in to it. A number of Psubbers know him & I am sure he would be willing to put any draft regulations to the group for discussion if we request that. Is Vance part of this board? Alan Sent from my iPad > On 13/07/2017, at 5:55 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates. Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an "Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation, would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The safety officer from my company (Pisces VI) is on the board as well as alot of very smart under water professionals. > > Thank you, > Scott Waters > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/12/17 12:30 PM (GMT-06:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > I have been following the conversation about the bathtub sub with definite interest. Thank you Juergen for sharing it. I definitely agree with the though raised by River and Steve that we may have a moral or ethical obligation to at least try to inform them about the serious danger of their boat. Ultimately I agree with Ludwig, Hank and Carsten that they really won't care about safety standards. As Hank suggested it does appear to be sort of a "joke" to them. I think that is accurate. > > In regards to "informing" people interested in this hobby, I definitely think we would be the right group to do it. > > I am currently the national chairman of the Federation of State medical Boards. We are a national organization created by individual state medical boards to create a forum to ensure and promote patient safety through appropriate licensing and discipline of United States physicians. > > In fact we have no specific authority granted by government or otherwise but we have 112 year history of creating work groups, coming to consensus and then creating "best practices" documents that gets distributed back to our state medical Boards. > > Very often, the documents that we create become individual state law without any changes but again this is only because the people receiving them respect the work that is done by the group and understand that lots of really informed people have come together to create something that protects patients. > > In this regard, PSUBS would be the ideal group to come up with guidelines for safety when building. > If nothing else, it may help us down the road if regulation is considered to say "we don't need government. We already have a policy". Or if a policy IS enforced by government, maybe our policy could be considered and adopted which would at least allow us to control the conversation. > > All of this is really just a long way to say "yes. I think it is a good idea." > At least we could then point to our guidelines when we approach guys like the bathtub builders. > > Just a thought. > Thanks > Greg. > >> On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> The bathtub itself is mabe not the problem. But look at the outfitting.. >> >> Imagine seating under a hatch, flat and made from plywood. Say 0,45 x 0,6 meter or 0,24 m2 >> Means a waterpressure of 240 Kg (500 pound) per meter or 1,44 ts at 6 meter deep. >> >> Question - how many of you would like to seat under a sheet of plywood and somebody put 1,5 ts of lead bars on it? >> In the center of the plywood a hole with a plastic pipe periskop made of material for rain drain pipes.. Never designed for any pressure. >> >> I think this guys will not be intesst to build a real psub. >> A real psub will be safe - and the video will be just shared by some 100 - 500 psubers in the world. >> And not 100.000 of kids. I think they want to be build something looking unsafe. And the best way to do is building something unsafe. >> >> Carsten -32 years of accident free submarine operations, okay.. somethimes it was tight..- >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine >> Datum: 2017-07-12T16:49:46+0200 >> Von: "via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" >> >> >> >> I have a feeling they will be sticking to this adventure for a while. In the last video they had, they dove it down to 6 meters but I don't think they are planning on diving beyond 10 meters (The have it attached to a float on the surface) I already sent them a message but I think everybody should because since they are popular I have a feeling it's going to encourage some more people to do what they are doing. >> Does anybody know what the strength of those tubes are? >> >> -Ludwig >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Wed, Jul 12, 2017 3:02 am >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine >> >> Hi Ludwig, >> >> When I first saw these guys in the first video, I thought the same. When I look at the latest video, >> I get the feeling this is just a joke to them and they are seeking youtube subscribers. They don't seem interested in being responsible at all, and I doubt they will listen to reason. We just have to hope they move on to their next attention seeking adventure before they get hurt. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:15 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> I was just going to ask you guys about these people! >> >> I assume they are not members here, but I would say it's part of our "mission" to reach out and educate them and have them join this group. I think what they are doing is amazing and ambitious, and we should encourage what they are doing but help them make the sub safer before they go about injuring themselves and giving a bad images on personal homebuilt submersibles. >> >> Here's the link to contacting them through the website and I highly recommend everybody to contact them into joining this group so we can help them with their project. >> http://thereallifeguys.de/kontaktformular/ >> >> >> -Ludwig >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles >> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >> Sent: Tue, Jul 11, 2017 7:38 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine >> >> So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn). >> >> Steve >> >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:44 PM >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine >> >> Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident) we all get closer to being shut down. >> >> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine >> >> >> Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. >> >> A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine >> will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. >> >> At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: >> Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. >> And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine >> Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 >> Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> Hello Psubbbers >> Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth >> LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 >> >> >> >> >> LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 >> Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... >> >> >> Best wishes >> Juergen >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> ? >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 16:12:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:12:22 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Message-ID: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> Vance was with me at UI as well as my cheif scuentist, but just my safety officer is on the committie to help with drafting the rules. Thank you,Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/12/17 2:57 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Scott,I met Will at the Underwater Intervention Convention 3 years ago,& he told me that authorities were pressing him for a set of rules /guidelines for managing personal submersibles.?He was resisting having to do this, & it looks like ?he has finally beenpushed in to it. A number of Psubbers know him & I am sure he wouldbe willing to put any draft regulations to the group for discussion ifwe request that. Is Vance part of this board?Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/07/2017, at 5:55 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates. Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an "Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation, would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The safety officer from my company ?(Pisces VI) is on the board as well as alot of very smart under water professionals. Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/12/17 12:30 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform I have been following the conversation about the bathtub sub with definite interest. Thank you Juergen for sharing it. I definitely agree with the though raised by River and Steve that we may have a moral or ethical obligation to at least try to inform them about the serious danger of their boat. ?Ultimately I agree with Ludwig, Hank and Carsten that they really won't care about safety standards. As Hank suggested it does appear to be sort of a "joke" to them. I think that is accurate.? In regards to "informing" people interested in this hobby, I definitely think we would be the right group to do it. I am currently the national chairman of the Federation of State medical Boards. We are a national organization created by individual state medical boards to create a forum to ensure and promote patient safety through appropriate licensing and discipline of United States physicians. In fact we have no specific authority granted by government or otherwise but we have 112 year history of creating work groups, coming to consensus and then creating "best practices" documents that gets distributed back to our state medical Boards.? Very often, the documents that we create become individual state law without any changes but again this is only because the people receiving them respect the work that is done by the group and understand that lots of really informed people have come together to create something that protects patients. ? In this regard, PSUBS would be the ideal group to come up with guidelines for safety when building.?If nothing else, it may help us down the road if regulation is considered to say "we don't need government. We already have a policy". ?Or if a policy IS enforced by government, maybe our policy could be considered and adopted which would at least allow us to control the conversation.? All of this is really just a long way to say "yes. I think it is a good idea."?At least we could then point to our guidelines when we approach guys like the bathtub builders. ? Just a thought.?ThanksGreg.? On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? The bathtub itself is mabe not the problem. But look at the outfitting.. ? Imagine seating under a hatch, flat and made from plywood. Say 0,45 x 0,6 meter or 0,24 m2 Means a waterpressure of 240 Kg (500 pound) per meter or 1,44 ts at 6 meter deep. ? Question - how many of you would like to seat under a sheet of plywood and somebody put 1,5 ts of lead bars on it? In the center of the plywood a hole with a plastic pipe periskop made of material for rain drain pipes.. Never designed for any pressure. ? I think this guys will not be intesst to build a real psub. A real psub will be safe - and the video will be just shared by some 100 - 500 psubers in the world. And not 100.000 of kids. I think they want to be build something looking unsafe. And the best way to do is building something unsafe. ? Carsten????? -32 years of accident free submarine operations, okay.. somethimes it was tight..- ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Datum: 2017-07-12T16:49:46+0200 Von: "via Personal_Submersibles" An: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" ? ? ? I have a feeling they will be sticking to this adventure for a while. ?In the last video they had, they dove it down to 6 meters but I don't think they are planning on diving beyond 10 meters (The have it attached to a float on the surface) ?I already sent them a message but I think everybody should ?because since they are popular I have a feeling it's going to encourage some more people to do what they are doing. ? Does anybody know what the strength of those tubes are? ? ? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Jul 12, 2017 3:02 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Hi Ludwig, ? When I first saw these guys in the first video, I thought the same. ?When I look at the latest video,? I get the feeling this is just a joke to them and they are seeking youtube subscribers. ?They don't seem interested in being responsible at all, and I doubt they will listen to reason. ?We just have to hope they move on to their next attention seeking adventure before they get hurt. Hank On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:15 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I was just going to ask you guys about these people! ? I assume they are not members here, but I would say it's part of our "mission" to reach out and educate them and have them join this group. ?I think what they are doing is amazing and ambitious, and we should encourage what they are doing but help them make the sub safer before they go about injuring themselves and giving a bad images on personal homebuilt submersibles. ?? ? Here's the link to contacting them through the website and I highly recommend everybody to contact them into joining this group so we can help them with their project. http://thereallifeguys.de/kontaktformular/ ? ? -Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Jul 11, 2017 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn). ? Steve ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:44 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine ? Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident) ?we all get closer to being shut down. ? From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine ? ? Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. ? A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. ? At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200 Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? Hello Psubbbers Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 ? ? ? LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5 Eigentlich wollten wir im ?berfluteten Gef?ngnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns rei?t i... ? ? Best wishes Juergen ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 20:50:44 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 00:50:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, References: <1950818344.4854140.1499907044013.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1950818344.4854140.1499907044013@mail.yahoo.com> Hi all,Today I had an idea that would not have been possible before I had a big lathe. ?I can buy a series of 4 inch thick rings and machine them flat, glue them together to create a sphere. ?The rings can be machined individually so when glued together I have a sphere. ?The beauty of this is I can have additional thickness where I need it, like the hatch land. ?The ring that makes up the hatch land can be thicker.Any reason this is a bad idea.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 21:09:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 18:09:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, Message-ID: <42234.3381.bm@smtp215.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank, How about bolting them together along with the glue. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/12/17 5:50 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, Hi all,Today I had an idea that would not have been possible before I had a big lathe. ?I can buy a series of 4 inch thick rings and machine them flat, glue them together to create a sphere. ?The rings can be machined individually so when glued together I have a sphere. ?The beauty of this is I can have additional thickness where I need it, like the hatch land. ?The ring that makes up the hatch land can be thicker.Any reason this is a bad idea.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 21:28:35 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 01:28:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, In-Reply-To: <42234.3381.bm@smtp215.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <42234.3381.bm@smtp215.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1235389731.4914785.1499909315967@mail.yahoo.com> Kieth,For the sake of weight, I want to strap the sphere, plus it will keep the sphere smooth. ? Ideally I would drill through the centre of the rings and counter sink bolts in, but that is a no no.Hank On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 7:09 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, How about bolting them together along with the glue. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/12/17 5:50 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, Hi all,Today I had an idea that would not have been possible before I had a big lathe. ?I can buy a series of 4 inch thick rings and machine them flat, glue them together to create a sphere. ?The rings can be machined individually so when glued together I have a sphere. ?The beauty of this is I can have additional thickness where I need it, like the hatch land. ?The ring that makes up the hatch land can be thicker.Any reason this is a bad idea.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 22:25:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 19:25:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, Message-ID: <859366.96992.bm@smtp204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Your braver than me. Personally, I wouldn't trust just the adhesive. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/12/17 6:28 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, Kieth,For the sake of weight, I want to strap the sphere, plus it will keep the sphere smooth. ? Ideally I would drill through the centre of the rings and counter sink bolts in, but that is a no no.Hank On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 7:09 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, How about bolting them together along with the glue. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/12/17 5:50 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, Hi all,Today I had an idea that would not have been possible before I had a big lathe. ?I can buy a series of 4 inch thick rings and machine them flat, glue them together to create a sphere. ?The rings can be machined individually so when glued together I have a sphere. ?The beauty of this is I can have additional thickness where I need it, like the hatch land. ?The ring that makes up the hatch land can be thicker.Any reason this is a bad idea.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 22:37:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:37:10 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, In-Reply-To: VSPXd7BfEsSDNVSPYdHnVv References: <1950818344.4854140.1499907044013.ref@mail.yahoo.com> VSPXd7BfEsSDNVSPYdHnVv Message-ID: Hank, the physics of this doesn't work. Within the shell wall, you have tensile or compressive (hoop) stresses, shear stresses, and bending stresses. Anytime you stress a material in tension or compression, you also induce stresses in the transverse direction. With thin-walled shells, you can make an effective approximation about the stress distribution being evenly distributed across the shell cross section. With thicker shells, this doesn't hold true. Bending and shear stresses are introduced even in a nominal geometry shell. With a sphere cut into slices, only compressive load which is perpendicular to the seams will carry across the gaps unaffected. At any angle of incidence, shear force is introduced which will not be carried through the interface unless sufficiently precompressed, just as when tensioning a bolt joint. These shear forces will not be borne by glue. The solution is to make the interface surfaces coincident with the center of the sphere, just as when designing a hatch to replace shell material in a hole. Each ring in such a sphere would consequently have a different conical angle on each side. The difficulty would be in maintaining tight machining tolerances for concentricity and mating angle. You would also require some sort of external strapping / structure in order to both keep it all together, and bear any external loading which is not purely compressive. Also, the glue won't work if there is an extrusion path. Plan on metal to metal sealing between each ring, with an elastomeric backup at the outside of each seam. Sean On July 12, 2017 6:50:44 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi all,Today I had an idea that would not have been possible before I >had a big lathe. ?I can buy a series of 4 inch thick rings and machine >them flat, glue them together to create a sphere. ?The rings can be >machined individually so when glued together I have a sphere. ?The >beauty of this is I can have additional thickness where I need it, like >the hatch land. ?The ring that makes up the hatch land can be >thicker.Any reason this is a bad idea.Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 22:41:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:41:12 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, In-Reply-To: VU0id7jaasSDNVU0jdI8RV References: <1950818344.4854140.1499907044013.ref@mail.yahoo.com> VSPXd7BfEsSDNVSPYdHnVv VU0id7jaasSDNVU0jdI8RV Message-ID: <099bdbf2-f05e-4f87-9e6b-e9ffc26f07c1@email.android.com> I'm pretty sure that head forming would be cheaper. Sean On July 12, 2017 8:37:10 PM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >Hank, the physics of this doesn't work. Within the shell wall, you have >tensile or compressive (hoop) stresses, shear stresses, and bending >stresses. Anytime you stress a material in tension or compression, you >also induce stresses in the transverse direction. With thin-walled >shells, you can make an effective approximation about the stress >distribution being evenly distributed across the shell cross section. >With thicker shells, this doesn't hold true. Bending and shear stresses >are introduced even in a nominal geometry shell. With a sphere cut into >slices, only compressive load which is perpendicular to the seams will >carry across the gaps unaffected. At any angle of incidence, shear >force is introduced which will not be carried through the interface >unless sufficiently precompressed, just as when tensioning a bolt >joint. These shear forces will not be borne by glue. > >The solution is to make the interface surfaces coincident with the >center of the sphere, just as when designing a hatch to replace shell >material in a hole. Each ring in such a sphere would consequently have >a different conical angle on each side. The difficulty would be in >maintaining tight machining tolerances for concentricity and mating >angle. You would also require some sort of external strapping / >structure in order to both keep it all together, and bear any external >loading which is not purely compressive. Also, the glue won't work if >there is an extrusion path. Plan on metal to metal sealing between each >ring, with an elastomeric backup at the outside of each seam. > >Sean > > > >On July 12, 2017 6:50:44 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>Hi all,Today I had an idea that would not have been possible before I >>had a big lathe. ?I can buy a series of 4 inch thick rings and machine >>them flat, glue them together to create a sphere. ?The rings can be >>machined individually so when glued together I have a sphere. ?The >>beauty of this is I can have additional thickness where I need it, >like >>the hatch land. ?The ring that makes up the hatch land can be >>thicker.Any reason this is a bad idea.Hank >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 13 00:34:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 21:34:56 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, Message-ID: <20170712213456.13BF6980@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 13 07:41:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:41:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, In-Reply-To: <099bdbf2-f05e-4f87-9e6b-e9ffc26f07c1@email.android.com> References: <1950818344.4854140.1499907044013.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <099bdbf2-f05e-4f87-9e6b-e9ffc26f07c1@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1751818863.5169866.1499946076574@mail.yahoo.com> Thank's Sean,Well that sucks lol. ?My?motivation with this idea was not just to save money. ?I thought it was a great way to have a?thickened hatch area as if it was a cast part. ?It?likely would cost more because I am sure at least one ring would be replaced from machining screw up.Hank On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 8:41 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm pretty sure that head forming would be cheaper. Sean On July 12, 2017 8:37:10 PM MDT, "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Hank, the physics of this doesn't work. Within the shell wall, you have tensile or compressive (hoop) stresses, shear stresses, and bending stresses.? Anytime you stress a material in tension or compression, you also induce stresses in the transverse direction. With thin-walled shells, you can make an effective approximation about the stress distribution being evenly distributed across the shell cross section. With thicker shells, this doesn't hold true. Bending and shear stresses are introduced even in a nominal geometry shell. With a sphere cut into slices, only compressive load which is perpendicular to the seams will carry across the gaps unaffected. At any angle of incidence, shear force is introduced which will not be carried through the interface unless sufficiently precompressed, just as when tensioning a bolt joint. These shear forces will not be borne by glue.The solution is to make the interface surfaces coincident with the center of the sphere, just as when designing a hatch to replace shell material in a hole. Each ring in such a sphere would consequently have a different conical angle on each side. The difficulty would be in maintaining tight machining tolerances for concentricity and mating angle. You would also require some sort of external strapping / structure in order to both keep it all together, and bear any external loading which is not purely compressive. Also, the glue won't work if there is an extrusion path. Plan on metal to metal sealing between each ring, with an elastomeric backup at the outside of each seam.Sean On July 12, 2017 6:50:44 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,Today I had an idea that would not have been possible before I had a big lathe. ?I can buy a series of 4 inch thick rings and machine them flat, glue them together to create a sphere. ?The rings can be machined individually so when glued together I have a sphere. ?The beauty of this is I can have additional thickness where I need it, like the hatch land. ?The ring that makes up the hatch land can be thicker.Any reason this is a bad idea.Hank Personal_Submersib! lesmailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 21:16:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 21:16:43 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sphere construction, In-Reply-To: <1950818344.4854140.1499907044013@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1950818344.4854140.1499907044013.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1950818344.4854140.1499907044013@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <017031cd-a67b-4f6f-4ac4-b3e95d8da7bf@ohiohills.com> On 7/12/2017 8:50 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Today I had an idea that would not have been possible before I had a > big lathe. I can buy a series of 4 inch thick rings and machine them > flat, glue them together to create a sphere. The rings can be > machined individually so when glued together I have a sphere. The > beauty of this is I can have additional thickness where I need it, > like the hatch land. The ring that makes up the hatch land can be > thicker. Sounds quite reasonable to me, too. It worked for the Aluminaut and for James Helle and his Submanaut. Mr. Helle was working in 3/4-inch plywood, though. Mike --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 13 18:29:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 22:29:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT References: <1359999078.5707216.1499984957535.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1359999078.5707216.1499984957535@mail.yahoo.com> I think you could do 6. What do the experts say? Is this weldable ? -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 7/12/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Wednesday, July 12, 2017, 6:39 AM Pete,I was mistaken when I said you can push the window frames out to get more in. ?I was looking at my K350 CT yesterday and forgot that the port sits in a larger dia frame than I remembered. ?Gamma has ?a flat ring, making it smaller. ?It probably would be a bugger to weld them in, if even possible.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 6 29 2017 6 VP CT_NEW.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 52961 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 13 22:00:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 19:00:24 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more syntactic foam Message-ID: <20170713190024.13CBE8B5@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 13 22:23:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 21:23:02 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more syntactic foam Message-ID: <201707140222.v6E2Mau8036272@whoweb.com> Brian, Glad you recieved them. Yes, syntactic foam typically lifts double its weight. So it it weighs 10 lbs, it lifts its own weight plus another 10 lbs. Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/13/17 9:00 PM (GMT-06:00) To: PSubs Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more syntactic foam Hi All,??????????????? Got my syntactic foam today via UPS! ( thank you Scott !)?? .? I was surprised by how heavy it is ,? I did a test in fresh water and they seem to float about half way of the volume of the piece ,? does that sound about right??Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 13 23:28:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 20:28:10 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] more syntactic foam Message-ID: <20170713202810.13C34EC3@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 00:33:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 04:33:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> I do not believe PSUBS as an organization has an ethical obligation to inform anyone, unsolicited, that their design/construction techniques are flawed. ?Members who feel a personal obligation are free of course to contact such persons and help them individually or encourage them to join the group. ?But "obligation" is a pretty heavy concept which would seem to invoke a "duty", which I think is unrealistic and impractical for this organization to take on. ?We should call out bad designs within our own discussions and discourage anyone in our organization from following such designs, and we should not be afraid to speak out about bad designs when we are solicited to opine about them whether privately or publicly. ? PSUBS already has guidelines for design, construction, and operation of submarines for recreational use. ?We have an online mechanism for members to contribute additions, revisions, and removal of those guidelines. ?See PSUBS.ORG > Resources & Reference > Guidelines & Standards > PSUBS Guidelines. ?I would love to see more people become more involved with this part of the business. Regarding MUV MTS, you will have a difficult time convincing me that they are acting in the best interest of the underwater community as a whole. ?Do you not find it strange that PSUBS, which has existed for 21 years and undoubtedly is the largest organization representing recreational use submarines has never been invited to participate in this "safety board"? ?I remember well, when PSUBS first started and many in the underwater industry, particularly those associated with manned underwater vehicles of the Marine Technology Society considered PSUBS a bunch of nutjobs, weekend warriors, who were going to endanger the entire industry because we were all idiots with no discipline. ?Unfortunately, some in MTS have never changed their initial opinion of PSUBS and would like nothing more than if PSUBS just disappeared. ?There is little in common operationally between the MTS community and the PSUBS community. ?Their primary markets are commercial, research, and professional piloting; ours is personal use by individuals. ?I have been to numerous UI conventions and the only time they talk personal submarines is when PSUBS goes there to present a topic on it. ?The idea that they now seek to set rules affecting our submarines, without our input, is particularly distasteful to me especially since they are so terrified of the government setting rules upon them without their input. ?The idea that the Coast Guard and/or government is so close to handcuffing the industry that we have to come up with unifying rules and regulations, including marking home-builts as "experimental" has only ever been out of the mouths of MTS. ?A couple of years ago (I will have to track down the email) I was contacted by someone who was pushing the same MTS story about how the Coast Guard was one accident away from destroying the industry with rules and regulations, and how MTS was going to cure it with a unified set of rules for all submarines. ?I was even given the name of the CG official who supposedly was speaking to MTS about the urgent need for such rules, "or else". ?I contacted that CG official and quite contrary they were in no hurry for such rules and didn't even want to be involved with enforcing such rules. ?My message to MTS and other industry partners is this, no entity is in a position to better represent the unique issues of submarines used for personal purposes than PSUBS. ?No rules submitted to the CG or other government agency will be adopted without public input and when that occurs PSUBS will fight to protect our own interests, specifically that the Coast Guard adopt PSUBS rules and regulations for personal submarines. ?And more specifically, submarines for personal use are NOT going to required to have "experimental" emblazoned upon them. ?THAT, is a suggestion by some in MTS to protect their own business interests, not to better serve the underwater community. Jon? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 00:56:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 21:56:36 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Message-ID: <194482.7268.bm@smtp113.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jon, I too, cringe at the thought of any government regulation of private submarines. Once they get there hooks in, they will regulate it to death, and no one will be able to build (or be able to afford to, in compliance with engineering requirements and x ray testing of welds, etc.) their own submarines. JMHO. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/13/17 9:33 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform I do not believe PSUBS as an organization has an ethical obligation to inform anyone, unsolicited, that their design/construction techniques are flawed. ?Members who feel a personal obligation are free of course to contact such persons and help them individually or encourage them to join the group. ?But "obligation" is a pretty heavy concept which would seem to invoke a "duty", which I think is unrealistic and impractical for this organization to take on. ?We should call out bad designs within our own discussions and discourage anyone in our organization from following such designs, and we should not be afraid to speak out about bad designs when we are solicited to opine about them whether privately or publicly. ? PSUBS already has guidelines for design, construction, and operation of submarines for recreational use. ?We have an online mechanism for members to contribute additions, revisions, and removal of those guidelines. ?See PSUBS.ORG > Resources & Reference > Guidelines & Standards > PSUBS Guidelines. ?I would love to see more people become more involved with this part of the business. Regarding MUV MTS, you will have a difficult time convincing me that they are acting in the best interest of the underwater community as a whole. ?Do you not find it strange that PSUBS, which has existed for 21 years and undoubtedly is the largest organization representing recreational use submarines has never been invited to participate in this "safety board"? ?I remember well, when PSUBS first started and many in the underwater industry, particularly those associated with manned underwater vehicles of the Marine Technology Society considered PSUBS a bunch of nutjobs, weekend warriors, who were going to endanger the entire industry because we were all idiots with no discipline. ?Unfortunately, some in MTS have never changed their initial opinion of PSUBS and would like nothing more than if PSUBS just disappeared. ?There is little in common operationally between the MTS community and the PSUBS community. ?Their primary markets are commercial, research, and professional piloting; ours is personal use by individuals. ?I have been to numerous UI conventions and the only time they talk personal submarines is when PSUBS goes there to present a topic on it. ?The idea that they now seek to set rules affecting our submarines, without our input, is particularly distasteful to me especially since they are so terrified of the government setting rules upon them without their input. ?The idea that the Coast Guard and/or government is so close to handcuffing the industry that we have to come up with unifying rules and regulations, including marking home-builts as "experimental" has only ever been out of the mouths of MTS. ?A couple of years ago (I will have to track down the email) I was contacted by someone who was pushing the same MTS story about how the Coast Guard was one accident away from destroying the industry with rules and regulations, and how MTS was going to cure it with a unified set of rules for all submarines. ?I was even given the name of the CG official who supposedly was speaking to MTS about the urgent need for such rules, "or else". ?I contacted that CG official and quite contrary they were in no hurry for such rules and didn't even want to be involved with enforcing such rules. ?My message to MTS and other industry partners is this, no entity is in a position to better represent the unique issues of submarines used for personal purposes than PSUBS. ?No rules submitted to the CG or other government agency will be adopted without public input and when that occurs PSUBS will fight to protect our own interests, specifically that the Coast Guard adopt PSUBS rules and regulations for personal submarines. ?And more specifically, submarines for personal use are NOT going to required to have "experimental" emblazoned upon them. ?THAT, is a suggestion by some in MTS to protect their own business interests, not to better serve the underwater community. Jon? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 05:21:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 10:21:38 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT In-Reply-To: <1359999078.5707216.1499984957535@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1359999078.5707216.1499984957535.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1359999078.5707216.1499984957535@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I wouldn't bother. Just make it with the normal 4. Hank may disagree, but I find the view is fine from 4. Plus you spend most time looking out the front anyway. More ports to make. Awkward to weld in. More chance of distortion on tower. I would change the 15" port at the front to a big dome though. :) regards James On 13 July 2017 at 23:29, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I think you could do 6. What do the experts say? Is this weldable ? > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 7/12/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Date: Wednesday, July 12, 2017, 6:39 AM > > Pete,I was mistaken when I said you can push the window > frames out to get more in. I was looking at my K350 CT > yesterday and forgot that the port sits in a larger dia > frame than I remembered. Gamma has a flat ring, > making it smaller. It probably would be a bugger to > weld them in, if even possible.Hank_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 05:52:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 09:52:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT In-Reply-To: References: <1359999078.5707216.1499984957535.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1359999078.5707216.1499984957535@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <553171200.312572.1500025926403@mail.yahoo.com> James,Agreed, change the front port to the biggest dome your bank account will allow. ?I disagree with building with four ports in the CT, I could see 6 ports being okay with the ports bunched up as close as the engineers allow towards the front. ?The pilot might also want a nice view of the treasure chest, or mermaid swimming by.;-)Pete, next time there is a convention in the west, be sure to come and I will take you for a spin in Gamma and you can pilot the sub and see for yourself. ?You can check out a K350 or already have I suspect, then decide if the work and cost is worth it. ?Hank On Friday, July 14, 2017 3:21 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I wouldn't bother.? Just make it with the normal 4.? Hank may disagree, but I find the view is fine from 4.? Plus you spend most time looking out the front anyway. More ports to make. Awkward to weld in. More chance of distortion on tower. I would change the 15" port at the front to a big dome though.? :) regards James On 13 July 2017 at 23:29, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I think you could do 6. What do the experts say? Is this weldable ? > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 7/12/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT >? To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >? Date: Wednesday, July 12, 2017, 6:39 AM > >? Pete,I was mistaken when I said you can push the window >? frames out to get more in.? I was looking at my K350 CT >? yesterday and forgot that the port sits in a larger dia >? frame than I remembered.? Gamma has? a flat ring, >? making it smaller.? It probably would be a bugger to >? weld them in, if even possible.Hank_______________________________________________ >? Personal_Submersibles mailing list >? Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >? http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 07:34:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 05:34:24 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: VsIbdhGKewSGxVsIcdXWnu References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> VsIbdhGKewSGxVsIcdXWnu Message-ID: <55c883ef-437e-4ad1-bc6c-0dffc4846b31@email.android.com> While PSUBS as an organization may not have any obligation to the public, some individuals may be obligated by law as a result of their memberships in professional organizations. In Canada, registered Professional Engineers and Professional Technologists must sit an ethics exam as a prerequisite to professional registration, and are actually contractually obligated to intervene when public safety is threatened. Of course, laws vary by jurisdiction, and it is less clear whether one or more individuals building an unsafe vehicle constitutes a "public" safety risk. Any such obligated person should be aware of the extent of their responsibilities. That said, as with any incidence of observing unsafe behaviour, if that behaviour is the result of ignorance, it is incumbent upon any informed person to inform in the interest of preserving life. That is not a legal obligation, but a societal one. Of course, any such information offered may be disregarded, but at that point it is reasonable to conclude that your duty of care has been met. Sean On July 13, 2017 10:33:06 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >I do not believe PSUBS as an organization has an ethical obligation to >inform anyone, unsolicited, that their design/construction techniques >are flawed. ?Members who feel a personal obligation are free of course >to contact such persons and help them individually or encourage them to >join the group. ?But "obligation" is a pretty heavy concept which would >seem to invoke a "duty", which I think is unrealistic and impractical >for this organization to take on. ?We should call out bad designs >within our own discussions and discourage anyone in our organization >from following such designs, and we should not be afraid to speak out >about bad designs when we are solicited to opine about them whether >privately or publicly. ? >PSUBS already has guidelines for design, construction, and operation of >submarines for recreational use. ?We have an online mechanism for >members to contribute additions, revisions, and removal of those >guidelines. ?See PSUBS.ORG > Resources & Reference > Guidelines & >Standards > PSUBS Guidelines. ?I would love to see more people become >more involved with this part of the business. >Regarding MUV MTS, you will have a difficult time convincing me that >they are acting in the best interest of the underwater community as a >whole. ?Do you not find it strange that PSUBS, which has existed for 21 >years and undoubtedly is the largest organization representing >recreational use submarines has never been invited to participate in >this "safety board"? ?I remember well, when PSUBS first started and >many in the underwater industry, particularly those associated with >manned underwater vehicles of the Marine Technology Society considered >PSUBS a bunch of nutjobs, weekend warriors, who were going to endanger >the entire industry because we were all idiots with no discipline. >?Unfortunately, some in MTS have never changed their initial opinion of >PSUBS and would like nothing more than if PSUBS just disappeared. >?There is little in common operationally between the MTS community and >the PSUBS community. ?Their primary markets are commercial, research, >and professional piloting; ours is personal use by individuals. ?I have >been to numerous UI conventions and the only time they talk personal >submarines is when PSUBS goes there to present a topic on it. ?The idea >that they now seek to set rules affecting our submarines, without our >input, is particularly distasteful to me especially since they are so >terrified of the government setting rules upon them without their >input. ?The idea that the Coast Guard and/or government is so close to >handcuffing the industry that we have to come up with unifying rules >and regulations, including marking home-builts as "experimental" has >only ever been out of the mouths of MTS. ?A couple of years ago (I will >have to track down the email) I was contacted by someone who was >pushing the same MTS story about how the Coast Guard was one accident >away from destroying the industry with rules and regulations, and how >MTS was going to cure it with a unified set of rules for all >submarines. ?I was even given the name of the CG official who >supposedly was speaking to MTS about the urgent need for such rules, >"or else". ?I contacted that CG official and quite contrary they were >in no hurry for such rules and didn't even want to be involved with >enforcing such rules. ?My message to MTS and other industry partners is >this, no entity is in a position to better represent the unique issues >of submarines used for personal purposes than PSUBS. ?No rules >submitted to the CG or other government agency will be adopted without >public input and when that occurs PSUBS will fight to protect our own >interests, specifically that the Coast Guard adopt PSUBS rules and >regulations for personal submarines. ?And more specifically, submarines >for personal use are NOT going to required to have "experimental" >emblazoned upon them. ?THAT, is a suggestion by some in MTS to protect >their own business interests, not to better serve the underwater >community. >Jon? > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 08:32:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 13:32:02 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT In-Reply-To: <553171200.312572.1500025926403@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1359999078.5707216.1499984957535.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1359999078.5707216.1499984957535@mail.yahoo.com> <553171200.312572.1500025926403@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'd probably like 6 ports if I could miraculously change it mind.......im only saying 4 is ok because that's what I have. :) On 14 July 2017 at 10:52, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > James, > Agreed, change the front port to the biggest dome your bank account will > allow. I disagree with building with four ports in the CT, I could see 6 > ports being okay with the ports bunched up as close as the engineers allow > towards the front. The pilot might also want a nice view of the treasure > chest, or mermaid swimming by.;-) > Pete, next time there is a convention in the west, be sure to come and I > will take you for a spin in Gamma and you can pilot the sub and see for > yourself. You can check out a K350 or already have I suspect, then decide > if the work and cost is worth it. > Hank > > > On Friday, July 14, 2017 3:21 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > I wouldn't bother. Just make it with the normal 4. Hank may > disagree, but I find the view is fine from 4. Plus you spend most > time looking out the front anyway. > > More ports to make. > Awkward to weld in. > More chance of distortion on tower. > > I would change the 15" port at the front to a big dome though. :) > > regards > James > > > > > On 13 July 2017 at 23:29, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> I think you could do 6. What do the experts say? Is this weldable ? >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Wed, 7/12/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> Date: Wednesday, July 12, 2017, 6:39 AM >> >> Pete,I was mistaken when I said you can push the window >> frames out to get more in. I was looking at my K350 CT >> yesterday and forgot that the port sits in a larger dia >> frame than I remembered. Gamma has a flat ring, >> making it smaller. It probably would be a bugger to >> weld them in, if even >> possible.Hank_______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 08:43:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 00:43:55 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jon, Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined), so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid it. In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing, where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use. In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howling gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket; so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be relevant. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/07/2017, at 4:33 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I do not believe PSUBS as an organization has an ethical obligation to inform anyone, unsolicited, that their design/construction techniques are flawed. Members who feel a personal obligation are free of course to contact such persons and help them individually or encourage them to join the group. But "obligation" is a pretty heavy concept which would seem to invoke a "duty", which I think is unrealistic and impractical for this organization to take on. We should call out bad designs within our own discussions and discourage anyone in our organization from following such designs, and we should not be afraid to speak out about bad designs when we are solicited to opine about them whether privately or publicly. > > PSUBS already has guidelines for design, construction, and operation of submarines for recreational use. We have an online mechanism for members to contribute additions, revisions, and removal of those guidelines. See PSUBS.ORG > Resources & Reference > Guidelines & Standards > PSUBS Guidelines. I would love to see more people become more involved with this part of the business. > > Regarding MUV MTS, you will have a difficult time convincing me that they are acting in the best interest of the underwater community as a whole. Do you not find it strange that PSUBS, which has existed for 21 years and undoubtedly is the largest organization representing recreational use submarines has never been invited to participate in this "safety board"? I remember well, when PSUBS first started and many in the underwater industry, particularly those associated with manned underwater vehicles of the Marine Technology Society considered PSUBS a bunch of nutjobs, weekend warriors, who were going to endanger the entire industry because we were all idiots with no discipline. Unfortunately, some in MTS have never changed their initial opinion of PSUBS and would like nothing more than if PSUBS just disappeared. There is little in common operationally between the MTS community and the PSUBS community. Their primary markets are commercial, research, and professional piloting; ours is personal use by individuals. I have been to numerous UI conventions and the only time they talk personal submarines is when PSUBS goes there to present a topic on it. The idea that they now seek to set rules affecting our submarines, without our input, is particularly distasteful to me especially since they are so terrified of the government setting rules upon them without their input. The idea that the Coast Guard and/or government is so close to handcuffing the industry that we have to come up with unifying rules and regulations, including marking home-builts as "experimental" has only ever been out of the mouths of MTS. A couple of years ago (I will have to track down the email) I was contacted by someone who was pushing the same MTS story about how the Coast Guard was one accident away from destroying the industry with rules and regulations, and how MTS was going to cure it with a unified set of rules for all submarines. I was even given the name of the CG official who supposedly was speaking to MTS about the urgent need for such rules, "or else". I contacted that CG official and quite contrary they were in no hurry for such rules and didn't even want to be involved with enforcing such rules. My message to MTS and other industry partners is this, no entity is in a position to better represent the unique issues of submarines used for personal purposes than PSUBS. No rules submitted to the CG or other government agency will be adopted without public input and when that occurs PSUBS will fight to protect our own interests, specifically that the Coast Guard adopt PSUBS rules and regulations for personal submarines. And more specifically, submarines for personal use are NOT going to required to have "experimental" emblazoned upon them. THAT, is a suggestion by some in MTS to protect their own business interests, not to better serve the underwater community. > > Jon > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 10:01:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:01:17 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: Vzxbdscl1SavnVzxcdW1Tr References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> Vzxbdscl1SavnVzxcdW1Tr Message-ID: <5f343d92-f052-419b-8ebf-a109dd784d25@email.android.com> Where do they perceive a vacuum in the regulations regarding submarines? Construction standards abound, and existing regulations for small craft should apply (i.e licensing over 10 HP, etc.) Operational rules already exist in the form of the International Regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea. Surfacing / diving as a special consideration would appear to be covered by the requirement for maintaining a competent watch. What specifically do they want to regulate that doesn't already exist? Sean On July 14, 2017 6:43:55 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Jon, >Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. >Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire >to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved >in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! >Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I >declined), >so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads >the >submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups >like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been >wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to >avoid >it. >In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is >surfacing, >where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps >some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be >in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the >submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use. >In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a >howling >gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life >jacket; >so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would >be >relevant. >Alan > > >Sent from my iPad > >> On 14/07/2017, at 4:33 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> >> I do not believe PSUBS as an organization has an ethical obligation >to inform anyone, unsolicited, that their design/construction >techniques are flawed. Members who feel a personal obligation are free >of course to contact such persons and help them individually or >encourage them to join the group. But "obligation" is a pretty heavy >concept which would seem to invoke a "duty", which I think is >unrealistic and impractical for this organization to take on. We >should call out bad designs within our own discussions and discourage >anyone in our organization from following such designs, and we should >not be afraid to speak out about bad designs when we are solicited to >opine about them whether privately or publicly. >> >> PSUBS already has guidelines for design, construction, and operation >of submarines for recreational use. We have an online mechanism for >members to contribute additions, revisions, and removal of those >guidelines. See PSUBS.ORG > Resources & Reference > Guidelines & >Standards > PSUBS Guidelines. I would love to see more people become >more involved with this part of the business. >> >> Regarding MUV MTS, you will have a difficult time convincing me that >they are acting in the best interest of the underwater community as a >whole. Do you not find it strange that PSUBS, which has existed for 21 >years and undoubtedly is the largest organization representing >recreational use submarines has never been invited to participate in >this "safety board"? I remember well, when PSUBS first started and >many in the underwater industry, particularly those associated with >manned underwater vehicles of the Marine Technology Society considered >PSUBS a bunch of nutjobs, weekend warriors, who were going to endanger >the entire industry because we were all idiots with no discipline. >Unfortunately, some in MTS have never changed their initial opinion of >PSUBS and would like nothing more than if PSUBS just disappeared. >There is little in common operationally between the MTS community and >the PSUBS community. Their primary markets are commercial, research, >and professional piloting; ours is personal use by individuals. I have >been to numerous UI conventions and the only time they talk personal >submarines is when PSUBS goes there to present a topic on it. The idea >that they now seek to set rules affecting our submarines, without our >input, is particularly distasteful to me especially since they are so >terrified of the government setting rules upon them without their >input. The idea that the Coast Guard and/or government is so close to >handcuffing the industry that we have to come up with unifying rules >and regulations, including marking home-builts as "experimental" has >only ever been out of the mouths of MTS. A couple of years ago (I will >have to track down the email) I was contacted by someone who was >pushing the same MTS story about how the Coast Guard was one accident >away from destroying the industry with rules and regulations, and how >MTS was going to cure it with a unified set of rules for all >submarines. I was even given the name of the CG official who >supposedly was speaking to MTS about the urgent need for such rules, >"or else". I contacted that CG official and quite contrary they were >in no hurry for such rules and didn't even want to be involved with >enforcing such rules. My message to MTS and other industry partners is >this, no entity is in a position to better represent the unique issues >of submarines used for personal purposes than PSUBS. No rules >submitted to the CG or other government agency will be adopted without >public input and when that occurs PSUBS will fight to protect our own >interests, specifically that the Coast Guard adopt PSUBS rules and >regulations for personal submarines. And more specifically, submarines >for personal use are NOT going to required to have "experimental" >emblazoned upon them. THAT, is a suggestion by some in MTS to protect >their own business interests, not to better serve the underwater >community. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 10:51:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:51:25 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT Message-ID: <20170714075125.3F8575E5@m0117566.ppops.net> I have 8 in my CT , one added benefit will be that I can put navigation lights on the port and starboard 45 degree viewports. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 10:21:38 +0100 I wouldn't bother. Just make it with the normal 4. Hank may disagree, but I find the view is fine from 4. Plus you spend most time looking out the front anyway. More ports to make. Awkward to weld in. More chance of distortion on tower. I would change the 15" port at the front to a big dome though. :) regards James On 13 July 2017 at 23:29, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I think you could do 6. What do the experts say? Is this weldable ? > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 7/12/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Date: Wednesday, July 12, 2017, 6:39 AM > > Pete,I was mistaken when I said you can push the window > frames out to get more in. I was looking at my K350 CT > yesterday and forgot that the port sits in a larger dia > frame than I remembered. Gamma has a flat ring, > making it smaller. It probably would be a bugger to > weld them in, if even possible.Hank_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hatch.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 110218 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 11:30:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 15:30:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, My thoughts. Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. ?As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours. ?Therefore, I find it?rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. ?Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? ?What weight is given to our input? ?How do we resolve disputes? ?Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. ?How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations. ?Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas. ?Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. ?The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines. ?So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? ?That is not a rhetorical question. Jon On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen.Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desireto be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involvedin the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance!Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined),so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads thesubmersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groupslike Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have beenwanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoidit.?In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing,where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhapssome regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & bein communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the?submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use.In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howlinggale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket;so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be?relevant.Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 11:35:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 09:35:00 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT In-Reply-To: W1wsduCKQnQ5dW1wudmH72 References: W1wsduCKQnQ5dW1wudmH72 Message-ID: <26070b84-9ca2-452a-955d-86683e922f2e@email.android.com> Port and starboard running lights have a prescribed arc of visibility from dead ahead to 22.5? abaft the beam on each side (112.5? each), with the stern light covering the remaining 135? centered about dead astern. To shine a running light through a 45? viewport would entail a maximum 67.5? angle through the window, which might be difficult. Sean On July 14, 2017 8:51:25 AM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I have 8 in my CT , one added benefit will be that I can put navigation >lights on the port and starboard 45 degree viewports. > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT >Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 10:21:38 +0100 > >I wouldn't bother. Just make it with the normal 4. Hank may >disagree, but I find the view is fine from 4. Plus you spend most >time looking out the front anyway. > >More ports to make. >Awkward to weld in. >More chance of distortion on tower. > >I would change the 15" port at the front to a big dome though. :) > >regards >James > > > > >On 13 July 2017 at 23:29, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> I think you could do 6. What do the experts say? Is this weldable ? >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Wed, 7/12/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > >> Date: Wednesday, July 12, 2017, 6:39 AM >> >> Pete,I was mistaken when I said you can push the window >> frames out to get more in. I was looking at my K350 CT >> yesterday and forgot that the port sits in a larger dia >> frame than I remembered. Gamma has a flat ring, >> making it smaller. It probably would be a bugger to >> weld them in, if even >possible.Hank_______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 12:16:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 16:16:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1643129310.503216.1500049012082@mail.yahoo.com> Jon is 100 % right. ?Any one that thinks that a commercial organization (especially one that makes a living selling ABS class subs) making rules for the rest of us is a good thing just doesn't get it.?If such a thing became the law none of us could afford this hobby. We already have the ASME guidelines. Millions of dollars and years of research were spent developing them. Don't try to reinvent the wheel! Just follow the rules and enjoy diving your sub! The biggest threat to the builders that follow the guidelines are the people who won't. The ones who are so "innovative" that they will ruin it for every one when they get killed in a pair of glued together bathtubs. We should individually show zero tolerance for anyone not following proven practices.? From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 12:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform I do not believe PSUBS as an organization has an ethical obligation to inform anyone, unsolicited, that their design/construction techniques are flawed. ?Members who feel a personal obligation are free of course to contact such persons and help them individually or encourage them to join the group. ?But "obligation" is a pretty heavy concept which would seem to invoke a "duty", which I think is unrealistic and impractical for this organization to take on. ?We should call out bad designs within our own discussions and discourage anyone in our organization from following such designs, and we should not be afraid to speak out about bad designs when we are solicited to opine about them whether privately or publicly. ? PSUBS already has guidelines for design, construction, and operation of submarines for recreational use. ?We have an online mechanism for members to contribute additions, revisions, and removal of those guidelines. ?See PSUBS.ORG > Resources & Reference > Guidelines & Standards > PSUBS Guidelines. ?I would love to see more people become more involved with this part of the business. Regarding MUV MTS, you will have a difficult time convincing me that they are acting in the best interest of the underwater community as a whole. ?Do you not find it strange that PSUBS, which has existed for 21 years and undoubtedly is the largest organization representing recreational use submarines has never been invited to participate in this "safety board"? ?I remember well, when PSUBS first started and many in the underwater industry, particularly those associated with manned underwater vehicles of the Marine Technology Society considered PSUBS a bunch of nutjobs, weekend warriors, who were going to endanger the entire industry because we were all idiots with no discipline. ?Unfortunately, some in MTS have never changed their initial opinion of PSUBS and would like nothing more than if PSUBS just disappeared. ?There is little in common operationally between the MTS community and the PSUBS community. ?Their primary markets are commercial, research, and professional piloting; ours is personal use by individuals. ?I have been to numerous UI conventions and the only time they talk personal submarines is when PSUBS goes there to present a topic on it. ?The idea that they now seek to set rules affecting our submarines, without our input, is particularly distasteful to me especially since they are so terrified of the government setting rules upon them without their input. ?The idea that the Coast Guard and/or government is so close to handcuffing the industry that we have to come up with unifying rules and regulations, including marking home-builts as "experimental" has only ever been out of the mouths of MTS. ?A couple of years ago (I will have to track down the email) I was contacted by someone who was pushing the same MTS story about how the Coast Guard was one accident away from destroying the industry with rules and regulations, and how MTS was going to cure it with a unified set of rules for all submarines. ?I was even given the name of the CG official who supposedly was speaking to MTS about the urgent need for such rules, "or else". ?I contacted that CG official and quite contrary they were in no hurry for such rules and didn't even want to be involved with enforcing such rules. ?My message to MTS and other industry partners is this, no entity is in a position to better represent the unique issues of submarines used for personal purposes than PSUBS. ?No rules submitted to the CG or other government agency will be adopted without public input and when that occurs PSUBS will fight to protect our own interests, specifically that the Coast Guard adopt PSUBS rules and regulations for personal submarines. ?And more specifically, submarines for personal use are NOT going to required to have "experimental" emblazoned upon them. ?THAT, is a suggestion by some in MTS to protect their own business interests, not to better serve the underwater community. Jon? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 12:24:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 09:24:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 8 window K350 CT Message-ID: <20170714092412.3F869A2C@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 12:26:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 16:26:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1244761897.501678.1500049560822@mail.yahoo.com> No one has been "pressing" any one to write rules for home builders. Certain sellers of ABS classed subs that won't be named have been trying to volunteer for the job for years. But, this WILL change if there is an accident. It WILL happen if we don't discourage unaccepted practices. And it WILL put and end to our hobby. From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Alan, My thoughts. Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. ?As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours. ?Therefore, I find it?rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. ?Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? ?What weight is given to our input? ?How do we resolve disputes? ?Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. ?How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations. ?Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas. ?Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. ?The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines. ?So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? ?That is not a rhetorical question. Jon On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen.Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desireto be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involvedin the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance!Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined),so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads thesubmersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groupslike Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have beenwanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoidit.?In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing,where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhapssome regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & bein communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the?submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use.In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howlinggale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket;so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be?relevant.Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 12:28:49 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 16:28:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <5f343d92-f052-419b-8ebf-a109dd784d25@email.android.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <5f343d92-f052-419b-8ebf-a109dd784d25@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1045895777.429023.1500049729171@mail.yahoo.com> Sean, exactly! PSUBS Design Guidelines for Personal Submersibles1 GENERAL1.1 Adoption of ABS and ASME Standards1.1.1 Applicability.Except where defined elsewhere within this document, all designs in whole or in part shall conform to the latest standards defined by the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS) and/or the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME). PSUBS Construction Guidelines for Personal Submersibles1 GENERAL1.1 Adoption of ABS and ASME Standards1.1.1 Applicability.Except where defined elsewhere within this document, all construction and fabrication techniques in whole or in part shall conform to the latest standards defined by the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS) and/or the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME). We have already adopted the gold standard for design and fabrication and therefore your question, where is the vaccum in regulations, is exactly on target. In the USA, personal submarines operate as small boats on the surface and are subject to the same rules as small surface vessels. ?Submerged, personal submarines are akin to SCUBA and adoption of those rules seems appropriate for reasonable safety during operations. The word "experimental" emblazoned on a personal submarine accomplishes what? ?It was adopted for aircraft purposes because the aircraft industry *is* heavily regulated including certifications and licensing...all that we want to avoid. ?Aircraft are not a proper correlation to personal submarines. ?The proper correlation is home-built canoes, row-boats, and powered boats; none of which is required to be identified as experimental. ?There is no logical argument for it when certification is the historical and existing standard. ?There can only be two possibilities with submarines, certified or not. ?Therefore, a submarine built by the best commercial fabricator on the planet, which is NOT certified, is identical to a home-built submarine in the context that they are BOTH non-certified vessels. ?From a regulation perspective it doesn't matter one wit, that one was fabricated in a multi-million dollar facility and the other was fabricated in a two stall garage. Jon On Friday, July 14, 2017 10:08 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Where do they perceive a vacuum in the regulations regarding submarines? Construction standards abound, and existing regulations for small craft should apply (i.e licensing over 10 HP, etc.) Operational rules already exist in the form of the International Regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea. Surfacing / diving as a special consideration would appear to be covered by the requirement for maintaining a competent watch.What specifically do they want to regulate that doesn't already exist?Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 13:17:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 11:17:41 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: W3XgdKju3sSDNW3XhdSEZQ References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <5f343d92-f052-419b-8ebf-a109dd784d25@email.android.com> W3XgdKju3sSDNW3XhdSEZQ Message-ID: Could we stand to refine the language of the PSubs guidelines in order to clearly differentiate between what parts of the standard are required to be adhered to (I.e. pressure boundary geometry, safety systems, etc.), and what is acceptable for a homebuilder to forgo (i.e. construction under survey, strain gauge validation, material testing, etc.)? On July 14, 2017 10:28:49 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean, exactly! >PSUBS Design Guidelines for Personal Submersibles1 GENERAL1.1 Adoption >of ABS and ASME Standards1.1.1 Applicability.Except where defined >elsewhere within this document, all designs in whole or in part shall >conform to the latest standards defined by the American Bureau of >Shipping (ABS) and/or the American Society of Mechanical Engineers >(ASME). >PSUBS Construction Guidelines for Personal Submersibles1 GENERAL1.1 >Adoption of ABS and ASME Standards1.1.1 Applicability.Except where >defined elsewhere within this document, all construction and >fabrication techniques in whole or in part shall conform to the latest >standards defined by the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS) and/or the >American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME). >We have already adopted the gold standard for design and fabrication >and therefore your question, where is the vaccum in regulations, is >exactly on target. >In the USA, personal submarines operate as small boats on the surface >and are subject to the same rules as small surface vessels. ?Submerged, >personal submarines are akin to SCUBA and adoption of those rules seems >appropriate for reasonable safety during operations. >The word "experimental" emblazoned on a personal submarine accomplishes >what? ?It was adopted for aircraft purposes because the aircraft >industry *is* heavily regulated including certifications and >licensing...all that we want to avoid. ?Aircraft are not a proper >correlation to personal submarines. ?The proper correlation is >home-built canoes, row-boats, and powered boats; none of which is >required to be identified as experimental. ?There is no logical >argument for it when certification is the historical and existing >standard. ?There can only be two possibilities with submarines, >certified or not. ?Therefore, a submarine built by the best commercial >fabricator on the planet, which is NOT certified, is identical to a >home-built submarine in the context that they are BOTH non-certified >vessels. ?From a regulation perspective it doesn't matter one wit, that >one was fabricated in a multi-million dollar facility and the other was >fabricated in a two stall garage. >Jon > >On Friday, July 14, 2017 10:08 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Where do they perceive a vacuum in the regulations regarding >submarines? Construction standards abound, and existing regulations for >small craft should apply (i.e licensing over 10 HP, etc.) Operational >rules already exist in the form of the International Regulations for >the Prevention of Collisions at Sea. Surfacing / diving as a special >consideration would appear to be covered by the requirement for >maintaining a competent watch.What specifically do they want to >regulate that doesn't already exist?Sean > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 13:23:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 17:23:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <1045895777.429023.1500049729171@mail.yahoo.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <5f343d92-f052-419b-8ebf-a109dd784d25@email.android.com> <1045895777.429023.1500049729171@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1413544299.555272.1500052999416@mail.yahoo.com> Here is a tip for any one who is approached by park rangers, Coast Guard or marine police personnel while operating you sub- Every time this has happened to me (and it has happened a few times) the officer politely asked if I had "permission" to dive a sub (because they honestly didn't know if permission is required or not)I politely pointed to the Maryland registration and said "this is a vessel registered in the state of MD".? That was it. They thanked me and said "have a good day". From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Sean, exactly! PSUBS Design Guidelines for Personal Submersibles1 GENERAL1.1 Adoption of ABS and ASME Standards1.1.1 Applicability.Except where defined elsewhere within this document, all designs in whole or in part shall conform to the latest standards defined by the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS) and/or the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME). PSUBS Construction Guidelines for Personal Submersibles1 GENERAL1.1 Adoption of ABS and ASME Standards1.1.1 Applicability.Except where defined elsewhere within this document, all construction and fabrication techniques in whole or in part shall conform to the latest standards defined by the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS) and/or the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME). We have already adopted the gold standard for design and fabrication and therefore your question, where is the vaccum in regulations, is exactly on target. In the USA, personal submarines operate as small boats on the surface and are subject to the same rules as small surface vessels. ?Submerged, personal submarines are akin to SCUBA and adoption of those rules seems appropriate for reasonable safety during operations. The word "experimental" emblazoned on a personal submarine accomplishes what? ?It was adopted for aircraft purposes because the aircraft industry *is* heavily regulated including certifications and licensing...all that we want to avoid. ?Aircraft are not a proper correlation to personal submarines. ?The proper correlation is home-built canoes, row-boats, and powered boats; none of which is required to be identified as experimental. ?There is no logical argument for it when certification is the historical and existing standard. ?There can only be two possibilities with submarines, certified or not. ?Therefore, a submarine built by the best commercial fabricator on the planet, which is NOT certified, is identical to a home-built submarine in the context that they are BOTH non-certified vessels. ?From a regulation perspective it doesn't matter one wit, that one was fabricated in a multi-million dollar facility and the other was fabricated in a two stall garage. Jon On Friday, July 14, 2017 10:08 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Where do they perceive a vacuum in the regulations regarding submarines? Construction standards abound, and existing regulations for small craft should apply (i.e licensing over 10 HP, etc.) Operational rules already exist in the form of the International Regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea. Surfacing / diving as a special consideration would appear to be covered by the requirement for maintaining a competent watch.What specifically do they want to regulate that doesn't already exist?Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 15:36:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 21:36:55 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1500061015907.4765889.12ef9cf910200427f2607d1eadb30d80f20833da@spica.telekom.de> The problems with rules are: Over the year they get real MONSTERS. Fiktiv Sample: Original rule: A Psub should have a drop weight Rev1 A Psub should have a drop weight. It should be tested during commissioning. Rev2 A Psub should have a drop weight. It should be tested during commissioning. The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. Rev3 A Psub should have a drop weight. It should be tested during commissioning. The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. A Inspecteur must on the spot during test. Rev4 A Psub should have a drop weight. It should be tested during commissioning. The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. A Inspecteur must on the spot during test. The indicator which shows the force has to be calibrate, and the calibration certification has to be on the spot. Rev4 A Psub should have a drop weight. It should be tested during commissioning. The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. A Inspecteur must on the spot during test. The indicator which shows the force has to be calibrate, and the calibration certification has to be on the spot. The company which build the indicator has to certified according to ISO somewhat. Rev5 A Psub should have a drop weight. It should be tested during commissioning. The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. A Inspecteur must on the spot during test. The indicator which shows the force has to be calibrate, and the calibration certification has to be on the spot. The company which build the indicator has to certified according to ISO somewhat. Rev6 A Psub should have a drop weight. It should be tested during commissioning. The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. A Inspecteur must on the spot during test. The indicator which shows the force has to be calibrate, and the calibration certification has to be on the spot. The company which build the indicator has to certified according to ISO somewhat. Before the drop release test can be done, a stability calculation for the sub has to be made. Rev7 A Psub should have a drop weight. It should be tested during commissioning. The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. A Inspecteur must on the spot during test. The indicator which shows the force has to be calibrate, and the calibration certification has to be on the spot. The company which build the indicator has to certified according to ISO somewhat. Before the drop release test can be done, a stability calculation for the sub has to be made. The guy how make the calculation has to be a naval engineer and the certificate calculation has to cross check be a classification. Okay boys - choose your Revison. And explain why.. My point: If the boat is use commercial, is build for sale and or transport payed guest. Than it should be revised by a classification. All none comercial homebuild can be build according to Charles Dawin. The bad ones will be select out by mother nature.. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Datum: 2017-07-14T17:33:14+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Alan, My thoughts. Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours. Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? What weight is given to our input? How do we resolve disputes? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations. Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas. Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines. So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? That is not a rhetorical question. Jon On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined), so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid it. In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing, where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use. In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howling gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket; so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be relevant. Alan ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 16:33:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 08:33:56 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> OK get your point Jon on not being invited. Lets insist in our inclusion. Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in the boat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to. You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobody will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules & it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you go down the "Rules " path, where does it end! In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don't injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 year period 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents. If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makers would step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a small boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > My thoughts. > > Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours. Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? What weight is given to our input? How do we resolve disputes? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? > > Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations. Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas. Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? > > I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines. So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? That is not a rhetorical question. > > Jon > > > On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Jon, > Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. > Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire > to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved > in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! > Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined), > so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the > submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups > like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been > wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid > it. > In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing, > where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps > some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be > in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the > submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use. > In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howling > gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket; > so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be > relevant. > Alan > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 19:26:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 23:26:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: lathe arrives at new shop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <738166200.865529.1500074788941@mail.yahoo.com> I can't believe it, one week ago I find and buy my 26,300 lb vertical lathe. ?Today it has arrived at my new shop. ?It will take at least 8 hr to jack and roll it off the low bed trailer. ?After it is off and the truck is gone, I have to lower it and roll it into the shop, but first I have to remove the exterior wall and cut a hole in the ceiling of the shop. ?There is a two bedroom apartment above the shop, so now there will be a section of lathe poking through ?the living room floor. ?I am renovating the exterior of the shop anyways.Hank On Friday, July 14, 2017 5:13 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2017-07-14 at 5.13 PM.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28464 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 19:51:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 11:51:59 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: lathe arrives at new shop In-Reply-To: <738166200.865529.1500074788941@mail.yahoo.com> References: <738166200.865529.1500074788941@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, where it protrudes up through the living room floor just put a table over it, no one will notice till it starts up! That's pretty quick going, congratulations, I would like to see it installed. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 15/07/2017, at 11:26 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I can't believe it, one week ago I find and buy my 26,300 lb vertical lathe. Today it has arrived at my new shop. It will take at least 8 hr to jack and roll it off the low bed trailer. After it is off and the truck is gone, I have to lower it and roll it into the shop, but first I have to remove the exterior wall and cut a hole in the ceiling of the shop. There is a two bedroom apartment above the shop, so now there will be a section of lathe poking through the living room floor. I am renovating the exterior of the shop anyways.er > Hank > > > On Friday, July 14, 2017 5:13 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 20:03:37 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 18:03:37 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: lathe arrives at new shop In-Reply-To: WA3IdNH0LoQOBWA3Kd29PG References: WA3IdNH0LoQOBWA3Kd29PG Message-ID: <8f5ab6bb-b462-41ec-b36e-27908e88d2dd@email.android.com> You have three phase service? or a converter? Sean On July 14, 2017 5:26:28 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I can't believe it, one week ago I find and buy my 26,300 lb vertical >lathe. ?Today it has arrived at my new shop. ?It will take at least 8 >hr to jack and roll it off the low bed trailer. ?After it is off and >the truck is gone, I have to lower it and roll it into the shop, but >first I have to remove the exterior wall and cut a hole in the ceiling >of the shop. ?There is a two bedroom apartment above the shop, so now >there will be a section of lathe poking through ?the living room floor. >?I am renovating the exterior of the shop anyways.Hank > > On Friday, July 14, 2017 5:13 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 20:12:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 00:12:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: lathe arrives at new shop In-Reply-To: <8f5ab6bb-b462-41ec-b36e-27908e88d2dd@email.android.com> References: <8f5ab6bb-b462-41ec-b36e-27908e88d2dd@email.android.com> Message-ID: <225858138.865228.1500077535703@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Alan, yes the table will go up and down and side to side lolSean, I do not have three phase, my plan is to remove the 30 hp motor and drive the lathe with a 34hp Duetz diesel engine with commercial centrifugal clutch. ?The engine will be outside the shop with a drive shaft through the wall. ? Then I will buy a converter to drive the two small motors and controller. ?Actually the controller might be single phase, lots of investigating to do.Hank On Friday, July 14, 2017 6:04 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You have three phase service? or a converter?Sean On July 14, 2017 5:26:28 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I can't believe it, one week ago I find and buy my 26,300 lb vertical lathe. ?Today it has arrived at my new shop. ?It will take at least 8 hr to jack and roll it off the low bed trailer. ?After it is off and the truck is gone, I have to lower it and roll it into the shop, but first I have to remove the exterior wall and cut a hole in the ceiling of the shop. ?There is a two bedroom apartment above the shop, so now there will be a section of lathe poking through ?the living room floor. ?I am renovating the exterior of the shop anyways.Hank On Friday, July 14, 2017 5:13 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 20:14:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 00:14:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: lathe arrives at new shop In-Reply-To: <225858138.865228.1500077535703@mail.yahoo.com> References: <8f5ab6bb-b462-41ec-b36e-27908e88d2dd@email.android.com> <225858138.865228.1500077535703@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1763262178.880110.1500077690817@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,You can?benefit from my new lathe also, I need engineering and you need machining for your new sub, hmmmmHank On Friday, July 14, 2017 6:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Alan, yes the table will go up and down and side to side lolSean, I do not have three phase, my plan is to remove the 30 hp motor and drive the lathe with a 34hp Duetz diesel engine with commercial centrifugal clutch. ?The engine will be outside the shop with a drive shaft through the wall. ? Then I will buy a converter to drive the two small motors and controller. ?Actually the controller might be single phase, lots of investigating to do.Hank On Friday, July 14, 2017 6:04 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You have three phase service? or a converter?Sean On July 14, 2017 5:26:28 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I can't believe it, one week ago I find and buy my 26,300 lb vertical lathe. ?Today it has arrived at my new shop. ?It will take at least 8 hr to jack and roll it off the low bed trailer. ?After it is off and the truck is gone, I have to lower it and roll it into the shop, but first I have to remove the exterior wall and cut a hole in the ceiling of the shop. ?There is a two bedroom apartment above the shop, so now there will be a section of lathe poking through ?the living room floor. ?I am renovating the exterior of the shop anyways.Hank On Friday, July 14, 2017 5:13 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 20:57:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 20:57:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: lathe arrives at new shop In-Reply-To: <225858138.865228.1500077535703@mail.yahoo.com> References: <8f5ab6bb-b462-41ec-b36e-27908e88d2dd@email.android.com> <225858138.865228.1500077535703@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That machine is impressive, but the installation plan is truly magnificent. Alec On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 8:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Alan, yes the table will go up and down and side to side lol > Sean, I do not have three phase, my plan is to remove the 30 hp motor and > drive the lathe with a 34hp Duetz diesel engine with commercial centrifugal > clutch. The engine will be outside the shop with a drive shaft through the > wall. Then I will buy a converter to drive the two small motors and > controller. Actually the controller might be single phase, lots of > investigating to do. > Hank > > > On Friday, July 14, 2017 6:04 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > You have three phase service? or a converter? > Sean > > > On July 14, 2017 5:26:28 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I can't believe it, one week ago I find and buy my 26,300 lb vertical > lathe. Today it has arrived at my new shop. It will take at least 8 hr to > jack and roll it off the low bed trailer. After it is off and the truck is > gone, I have to lower it and roll it into the shop, but first I have to > remove the exterior wall and cut a hole in the ceiling of the shop. There > is a two bedroom apartment above the shop, so now there will be a section > of lathe poking through the living room floor. I am renovating the > exterior of the shop anyways. > Hank > > > On Friday, July 14, 2017 5:13 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 14 22:33:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 19:33:38 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> Jon, My two bits for what it?s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation, regulations, etc., are just what we don?t need more of . . I am a life-member of MTS, but I think that Psubs simply asking to be a ?primary contributor? would miss the point ? BTW, who asked MTS to become involved in subs ? personal or commercial, in the first place? As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with world-wide certification agency requirements ? I?d hate to see yet another player get their foot in the door! Phil Nuytten From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform OK get your point Jon on not being invited. Lets insist in our inclusion. Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in the boat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to. You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobody will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules & it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you go down the "Rules " path, where does it end! In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don't injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 year period 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents. If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makers would step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a small boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, My thoughts. Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours. Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? What weight is given to our input? How do we resolve disputes? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations. Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas. Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines. So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? That is not a rhetorical question. Jon On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined), so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid it. In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing, where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use. In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howling gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket; so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be relevant. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 15 00:18:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 00:18:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: lathe arrives at new shop In-Reply-To: <738166200.865529.1500074788941@mail.yahoo.com> References: <738166200.865529.1500074788941@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <14ECC3CE-A68A-4EE1-9004-B2151A60D903@snyderemail.com> Hank! You are now officially the Coolest guy I know! Greg > On Jul 14, 2017, at 7:26 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I can't believe it, one week ago I find and buy my 26,300 lb vertical lathe. Today it has arrived at my new shop. It will take at least 8 hr to jack and roll it off the low bed trailer. After it is off and the truck is gone, I have to lower it and roll it into the shop, but first I have to remove the exterior wall and cut a hole in the ceiling of the shop. There is a two bedroom apartment above the shop, so now there will be a section of lathe poking through the living room floor. I am renovating the exterior of the shop anyways. > Hank > > > On Friday, July 14, 2017 5:13 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 15 01:15:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 01:15:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> Message-ID: <0AC71E36-C893-4277-BB03-F6CC4208044C@snyderemail.com> Hi Phil, Obviously you have way more experience than any of us in this regard. I definitely agree that NO ONE wants to be forced to follow any government mandates to pursue a hobby. Even the "bathtub" guys. If they are dumb enough to go to the bottom of crush depth and get injured, well then that is really just them being dumb and they sort of get what they deserve. And I also definitely see your point that being a contributor may actually move us closer to regulation. I think a relevant question at this point is do you think that regulations on personal submarines will be mandated at some point? If so, is there something that we could/should do in the interim? I personally believe that it's your life and your responsibility to be safe. Maybe just offering a dialogue and a place to go for interested parties is enough. Thoughts? Thanks! Best personal regards Greg > On Jul 14, 2017, at 10:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, > My two bits for what it?s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation, regulations, etc., are just what we don?t need more of . . I am a life-member of MTS, but I think that Psubs simply asking to be a ?primary contributor? would miss the point ? BTW, who asked MTS to become involved in subs ? personal or commercial, in the first place? > As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with world-wide certification agency requirements ? I?d hate to see yet another player get their foot in the door! > > Phil Nuytten > > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > OK get your point Jon on not being invited. > Lets insist in our inclusion. > Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in the > boat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to. > You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobody > will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules > & it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you go > down the "Rules " path, where does it end! > In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don't > injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a > safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 year > period 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents. > If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makers > would step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a small > boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody > surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just > address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes! > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> >> My thoughts. >> >> Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours. Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? What weight is given to our input? How do we resolve disputes? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? >> >> Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations. Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas. Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? >> >> I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines. So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? That is not a rhetorical question. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Jon, >> Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. >> Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire >> to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved >> in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! >> Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined), >> so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the >> submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups >> like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been >> wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid >> it. >> In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing, >> where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps >> some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be >> in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the >> submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use. >> In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howling >> gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket; >> so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be >> relevant. >> Alan >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 15 07:34:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 23:34:51 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> Message-ID: Jon, any thoughts on where we want to go with this? My interest is that as Scott pointed out, other countries will follow the U.S. in this regard. This could well have a positive outcome in that what was a grey area that had authorities scratching their heads, can now be clarified & the regulations quoted. It would make it easy for me & pacify the authorities here if I could say in America..... Do there have to be more rules or just a classification of submersibles as being under the same guidelines as other boats of a similar size? Regards Alan Sent from my iPad > On 15/07/2017, at 2:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, > My two bits for what it?s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation, regulations, etc., are just what we don?t need more of . . I am a life-member of MTS, but I think that Psubs simply asking to be a ?primary contributor? would miss the point ? BTW, who asked MTS to become involved in subs ? personal or commercial, in the first place? > As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with world-wide certification agency requirements ? I?d hate to see yet another player get their foot in the door! > > Phil Nuytten > > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > OK get your point Jon on not being invited. > Lets insist in our inclusion. > Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in the > boat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to. > You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobody > will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules > & it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you go > down the "Rules " path, where does it end! > In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don't > injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a > safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 year > period 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents. > If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makers > would step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a small > boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody > surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just > address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes! > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> >> My thoughts. >> >> Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours. Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? What weight is given to our input? How do we resolve disputes? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? >> >> Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations. Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas. Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? >> >> I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines. So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? That is not a rhetorical question. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Jon, >> Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. >> Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire >> to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved >> in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! >> Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined), >> so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the >> submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups >> like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been >> wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid >> it. >> In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing, >> where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps >> some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be >> in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the >> submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use. >> In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howling >> gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket; >> so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be >> relevant. >> Alan >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 15 07:50:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 11:50:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> Message-ID: <592539446.1053910.1500119407558@mail.yahoo.com> Seems, poking a bee hive with a stick is bad! ?Why do anything? ?Alan just say ?"In Canada, nobody bothers Psubs" ? ?This all started because a group of attention seekers built a bathtub submarine for the wrong reasons. ?I don't think (hope) ?they will get hurt-- did you see the look on that kids face when he was having trouble--I bet he needed to change his shorts when he got to shore. ?A good scare will stop them from continuing and maybe they will build a space ship out of a hot water tank, before something bad happens.Hank On Saturday, July 15, 2017 5:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,any thoughts on where we want to go with this?My interest is that as Scott pointed out, other countries will follow the U.S.in this regard.?This could well have a positive outcome in that what was a grey area that hadauthorities scratching their heads, can now be clarified & the regulationsquoted. It would make it easy for me & pacify the authorities here if I couldsay in America..... Do there have to be more rules or just a classification of?submersibles as being under the same guidelines as other boats of a similar size?Regards Alan Sent from my iPad On 15/07/2017, at 2:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles ? wrote: Jon,My two bits for what it?s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation, regulations, etc., are just what we don?t need more of . . I am a life-member of MTS, but I think that Psubs? simply asking to be a ?primary contributor? would miss the point ? BTW, who asked MTS? to become involved in subs ? personal or commercial, in the first place?As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with world-wide certification agency requirements ? I?d hate to see yet another player get their foot in the door!?Phil Nuytten??From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PMTo: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform?OK get your point Jon on not being invited.Lets insist in our inclusion.Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in theboat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to.You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobodywill comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules& it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you godown the "Rules " path, where does it end!In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don'tinjure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 yearperiod 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents.If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makerswould step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a smallboat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes!Cheers Alan?? Sent from my iPad On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, My thoughts. Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS.? As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours.? Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor.? Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued?? What weight is given to our input?? How do we resolve disputes?? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? ? Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation.? How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations.? Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas.? Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? ? I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS.? The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines.? So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines?? That is not a rhetorical question. ? Jon On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined), so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid it. In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing, where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use. In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howling gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket; so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be relevant. Alan ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 15 12:28:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 12:28:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <1500061015907.4765889.12ef9cf910200427f2607d1eadb30d80f20833da@spica.telekom.de> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <1500061015907.4765889.12ef9cf910200427f2607d1eadb30d80f20833da@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <026DB930-276C-4503-BA1E-6001824DAF27@snyderemail.com> Carsten. I like this a lot! "All non- commercial homebuild can be build according to Charles Dawin. The bad ones will be select out by mother nature." I agree that Darwin should rule the day. > On Jul 14, 2017, at 3:36 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > All none comercial homebuild can be build according to Charles Dawin. > The bad ones will be select out by mother nature.. > > vbr Carsten -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 15 15:24:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 19:24:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515458898.1259182.1500146669718@mail.yahoo.com> Here is a short video showing the method ?of unloading my new Lathe.Hank On Saturday, July 15, 2017 1:22 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: Unloading vertical lathe with beams and rollers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqXqAfFWVyc&t=3s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2017-07-15 at 1.22 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 25286 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 15 16:54:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 20:54:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <592539446.1053910.1500119407558@mail.yahoo.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> <592539446.1053910.1500119407558@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1570694270.1138965.1500152093932@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,you mightn't have seen Scott's post so have copied it below.The MTS (Marine Technology Society) has been around since 1963 & has a sub committee MUV (Manned UnderwaterVehicles). This committee is headed by Will Kohnen mailto:willkohnen at hydrospacegroup.comThey have been approached by authorities to give them some guidelines / rules on how to deal with submersibles, &?MUV have set up a committee to do this.? So the stick has already been poked in the beehive! As Jon says, as a group we shouldhave been approached for our input early on; but we still have an opportunity to insist on being involved!Regards Alan Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates. Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an "Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation, would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The safety officer from my company ?(Pisces VI) is on the board as well as alot of very smart under water professionals. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Seems, poking a bee hive with a stick is bad! ?Why do anything? ?Alan just say ?"In Canada, nobody bothers Psubs" ? ?This all started because a group of attention seekers built a bathtub submarine for the wrong reasons. ?I don't think (hope) ?they will get hurt-- did you see the look on that kids face when he was having trouble--I bet he needed to change his shorts when he got to shore. ?A good scare will stop them from continuing and maybe they will build a space ship out of a hot water tank, before something bad happens.Hank On Saturday, July 15, 2017 5:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,any thoughts on where we want to go with this?My interest is that as Scott pointed out, other countries will follow the U.S.in this regard.?This could well have a positive outcome in that what was a grey area that hadauthorities scratching their heads, can now be clarified & the regulationsquoted. It would make it easy for me & pacify the authorities here if I couldsay in America..... Do there have to be more rules or just a classification of?submersibles as being under the same guidelines as other boats of a similar size?Regards Alan Sent from my iPad On 15/07/2017, at 2:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles ? wrote: Jon,My two bits for what it?s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation, regulations, etc., are just what we don?t need more of . . I am a life-member of MTS, but I think that Psubs? simply asking to be a ?primary contributor? would miss the point ? BTW, who asked MTS? to become involved in subs ? personal or commercial, in the first place?As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with world-wide certification agency requirements ? I?d hate to see yet another player get their foot in the door!?Phil Nuytten??From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PMTo: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform?OK get your point Jon on not being invited.Lets insist in our inclusion.Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in theboat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to.You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobodywill comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules& it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you godown the "Rules " path, where does it end!In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don'tinjure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 yearperiod 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents.If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makerswould step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a smallboat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes!Cheers Alan?? Sent from my iPad On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, My thoughts. Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS.? As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours.? Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor.? Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued?? What weight is given to our input?? How do we resolve disputes?? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? ? Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation.? How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations.? Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas.? Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? ? I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS.? The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines.? So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines?? That is not a rhetorical question. ? Jon On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined), so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid it. In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing, where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use. In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howling gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket; so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be relevant. Alan ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 15 17:15:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 14:15:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Message-ID: <8688.10459.bm@smtp213.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I reiterate, this will be the death of home built non commercial personal submarines.? Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/15/17 1:54 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Hank,you mightn't have seen Scott's post so have copied it below.The MTS (Marine Technology Society) has been around since 1963 & has a sub committee MUV (Manned UnderwaterVehicles). This committee is headed by Will Kohnen mailto:willkohnen at hydrospacegroup.comThey have been approached by authorities to give them some guidelines / rules on how to deal with submersibles, &?MUV have set up a committee to do this.? So the stick has already been poked in the beehive! As Jon says, as a group we shouldhave been approached for our input early on; but we still have an opportunity to insist on being involved!Regards Alan Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates. Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an "Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation, would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The safety officer from my company ?(Pisces VI) is on the board as well as alot of very smart under water professionals. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Seems, poking a bee hive with a stick is bad! ?Why do anything? ?Alan just say ?"In Canada, nobody bothers Psubs" ? ?This all started because a group of attention seekers built a bathtub submarine for the wrong reasons. ?I don't think (hope) ?they will get hurt-- did you see the look on that kids face when he was having trouble--I bet he needed to change his shorts when he got to shore. ?A good scare will stop them from continuing and maybe they will build a space ship out of a hot water tank, before something bad happens.Hank On Saturday, July 15, 2017 5:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,any thoughts on where we want to go with this?My interest is that as Scott pointed out, other countries will follow the U.S.in this regard.?This could well have a positive outcome in that what was a grey area that hadauthorities scratching their heads, can now be clarified & the regulationsquoted. It would make it easy for me & pacify the authorities here if I couldsay in America..... Do there have to be more rules or just a classification of?submersibles as being under the same guidelines as other boats of a similar size?Regards Alan Sent from my iPad On 15/07/2017, at 2:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles ? wrote: Jon, My two bits for what it?s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation, regulations, etc., are just what we don?t need more of . . I am a life-member of MTS, but I think that Psubs? simply asking to be a ?primary contributor? would miss the point ? BTW, who asked MTS? to become involved in subs ? personal or commercial, in the first place? As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with world-wide certification agency requirements ? I?d hate to see yet another player get their foot in the door! ? Phil Nuytten ? ? From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform ? OK get your point Jon on not being invited. Lets insist in our inclusion. Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in the boat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to. You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobody will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules & it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you go down the "Rules " path, where does it end! In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don't injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 year period 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents. If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makers would step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a small boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes! Cheers Alan ? ? Sent from my iPad On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, My thoughts. Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS.? As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours.? Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor.? Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued?? What weight is given to our input?? How do we resolve disputes?? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? ? Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation.? How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations.? Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas.? Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? ? I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS.? The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines.? So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines?? That is not a rhetorical question. ? Jon On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined), so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid it. In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing, where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 15 20:16:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 00:16:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <8688.10459.bm@smtp213.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8688.10459.bm@smtp213.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <666022339.1361512.1500164201624@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I think we might be over reacting if we think Psubs are dead with rules. ?I just had a look at Canadian rules for?ammeter built aircraft. ?It is not a big deal, in fact you have to?demonstrate that at least 50% of the aircraft is home built. ?The ministry will consider any engine you want except solid rock fuel LOL?Basically ?you have to build with proper materials, demonstrate a design that is airworthy and have it inspected. ?It would not be the end of Psubs if we had to follow these rules, witch I highly doubt in Canada anyways. ?Not that I want rules--that is the last thing I want. Hank On Saturday, July 15, 2017 3:16 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I reiterate, this will be the death of home built non commercial personal submarines.? Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/15/17 1:54 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Hank,you mightn't have seen Scott's post so have copied it below.The MTS (Marine Technology Society) has been around since 1963 & has a sub committee MUV (Manned UnderwaterVehicles). This committee is headed by Will Kohnen mailto:willkohnen at hydrospacegroup.comThey have been approached by authorities to give them some guidelines / rules on how to deal with submersibles, &?MUV have set up a committee to do this.? So the stick has already been poked in the beehive! As Jon says, as a group we shouldhave been approached for our input early on; but we still have an opportunity to insist on being involved!Regards Alan Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates. Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an "Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation, would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The safety officer from my company ?(Pisces VI) is on the board as well as alot of very smart under water professionals. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Seems, poking a bee hive with a stick is bad! ?Why do anything? ?Alan just say ?"In Canada, nobody bothers Psubs" ? ?This all started because a group of attention seekers built a bathtub submarine for the wrong reasons. ?I don't think (hope) ?they will get hurt-- did you see the look on that kids face when he was having trouble--I bet he needed to change his shorts when he got to shore. ?A good scare will stop them from continuing and maybe they will build a space ship out of a hot water tank, before something bad happens.Hank On Saturday, July 15, 2017 5:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,any thoughts on where we want to go with this?My interest is that as Scott pointed out, other countries will follow the U.S.in this regard.?This could well have a positive outcome in that what was a grey area that hadauthorities scratching their heads, can now be clarified & the regulationsquoted. It would make it easy for me & pacify the authorities here if I couldsay in America..... Do there have to be more rules or just a classification of?submersibles as being under the same guidelines as other boats of a similar size?Regards Alan Sent from my iPad On 15/07/2017, at 2:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles ? wrote: Jon,My two bits for what it?s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation, regulations, etc., are just what we don?t need more of . . I am a life-member of MTS, but I think that Psubs? simply asking to be a ?primary contributor? would miss the point ? BTW, who asked MTS? to become involved in subs ? personal or commercial, in the first place?As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with world-wide certification agency requirements ? I?d hate to see yet another player get their foot in the door!?Phil Nuytten??From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PMTo: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform?OK get your point Jon on not being invited.Lets insist in our inclusion.Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in theboat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to.You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobodywill comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules& it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you godown the "Rules " path, where does it end!In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don'tinjure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 yearperiod 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents.If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makerswould step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a smallboat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes!Cheers Alan?? Sent from my iPad On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, My thoughts. Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS.? As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours.? Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor.? Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued?? What weight is given to our input?? How do we resolve disputes?? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? ? Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation.? How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations.? Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas.? Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? ? I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS.? The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines.? So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines?? That is not a rhetorical question. ? Jon On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined), so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid it. In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing, where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 15 20:43:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 12:43:39 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <666022339.1361512.1500164201624@mail.yahoo.com> References: <8688.10459.bm@smtp213.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <666022339.1361512.1500164201624@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <84514B03-F3ED-4A1E-9A1F-074DD5EDA1E2@yahoo.com> Hank, I agree no rules; it's like putting traffic lights in at the junction of two metal roads in the middle of Alaska. If there is no traffic it doesn't justify it. I mean how many submarines do you see buzzing about! Aircraft can fall out of the air & kill innocent members of the public, submarines just sink, so even that comparison isn't warranted. Only issue I can see is surfacing, where you might come up in front of a speed boat. Diving in shipping lanes or near underwater dam outlets where you may get sucked in & block a pipe! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 16/07/2017, at 12:16 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I think we might be over reacting if we think Psubs are dead with rules. I just had a look at Canadian rules for ammeter built aircraft. It is not a big deal, in fact you have to demonstrate that at least 50% of the aircraft is home built. The ministry will consider any engine you want except solid rock fuel LOL > Basically you have to build with proper materials, demonstrate a design that is airworthy and have it inspected. > It would not be the end of Psubs if we had to follow these rules, witch I highly doubt in Canada anyways. Not that I want rules--that is the last thing I want. > > Hank > > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2017 3:16 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I reiterate, this will be the death of home built non commercial personal submarines. > > Keith T. > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/15/17 1:54 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hank, > you mightn't have seen Scott's post so have copied it below. > The MTS (Marine Technology Society) has been around since 1963 & has a sub committee MUV (Manned Underwater > Vehicles). This committee is headed by Will Kohnen mailto:willkohnen at hydrospacegroup.com > They have been approached by authorities to give them some guidelines / rules on how to deal with submersibles, & MUV > have set up a committee to do this. So the stick has already been poked in the beehive! As Jon says, as a group we should > have been approached for our input early on; but we still have an opportunity to insist on being involved! > Regards Alan > > Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates. Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an "Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation, would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The safety officer from my company (Pisces VI) is on the board as well as alot of very smart under water professionals. > > > > > > > > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 11:58 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Seems, poking a bee hive with a stick is bad! Why do anything? Alan just say "In Canada, nobody bothers Psubs" This all started because a group of attention seekers built a bathtub submarine for the wrong reasons. I don't think (hope) they will get hurt-- did you see the look on that kids face when he was having trouble--I bet he needed to change his shorts when he got to shore. A good scare will stop them from continuing and maybe they will build a space ship out of a hot water tank, before something bad happens. > Hank > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2017 5:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Jon, > any thoughts on where we want to go with this? > My interest is that as Scott pointed out, other countries will follow the U.S. > in this regard. > This could well have a positive outcome in that what was a grey area that had > authorities scratching their heads, can now be clarified & the regulations > quoted. It would make it easy for me & pacify the authorities here if I could > say in America..... Do there have to be more rules or just a classification of > submersibles as being under the same guidelines as other boats of a similar size? > Regards Alan > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 15/07/2017, at 2:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > Jon, > My two bits for what it?s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation, regulations, etc., are just what we don?t need more of . . I am a life-member of MTS, but I think that Psubs simply asking to be a ?primary contributor? would miss the point ? BTW, who asked MTS to become involved in subs ? personal or commercial, in the first place? > As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with world-wide certification agency requirements ? I?d hate to see yet another player get their foot in the door! > > Phil Nuytten > > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > OK get your point Jon on not being invited. > Lets insist in our inclusion. > Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in the > boat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to. > You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobody > will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules > & it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you go > down the "Rules " path, where does it end! > In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don't > injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a > safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 year > period 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents. > If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makers > would step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a small > boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody > surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just > address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes! > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> >> My thoughts. >> >> Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours. Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? What weight is given to our input? How do we resolve disputes? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? >> >> Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations. Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas. Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? >> >> I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines. So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? That is not a rhetorical question. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Jon, >> Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. >> Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire >> to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved >> in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! >> Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined), >> so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the >> submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups >> like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been >> wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid >> it. >> In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing, >> where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 16 05:32:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 10:32:26 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Article Message-ID: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40393913 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 16 12:03:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 12:03:18 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, what an audacious expedition! Well wishes to all who are going deep. What an opportunity... ~ Douglas S. On 7/16/17, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40393913 > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 16 16:13:49 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 22:13:49 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <84514B03-F3ED-4A1E-9A1F-074DD5EDA1E2@yahoo.com> References: <8688.10459.bm@smtp213.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <666022339.1361512.1500164201624@mail.yahoo.com> <84514B03-F3ED-4A1E-9A1F-074DD5EDA1E2@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1500236029453.4263693.e0f3938b3320d90797b2851311cf3b977d2b4ac5@spica.telekom.de> There are many dead aircaft'sin the ocean, but there are no dead submarine's in the sky.. :-) -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Datum: 2017-07-16T02:46:00+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hank, I agree no rules; it's like putting traffic lights in at the junction of two metal roads in the middle of Alaska. If there is no traffic it doesn't justify it. I mean how many submarines do you see buzzing about! Aircraft can fall out of the air & kill innocent members of the public, submarines just sink, so even that comparison isn't warranted. Only issue I can see is surfacing, where you might come up in front of a speed boat. Diving in shipping lanes or near underwater dam outlets where you may get sucked in & block a pipe! Alan Sent from my iPad On 16/07/2017, at 12:16 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Alan, I think we might be over reacting if we think Psubs are dead with rules. I just had a look at Canadian rules for ammeter built aircraft. It is not a big deal, in fact you have to demonstrate that at least 50% of the aircraft is home built. The ministry will consider any engine you want except solid rock fuel LOL Basically you have to build with proper materials, demonstrate a design that is airworthy and have it inspected. It would not be the end of Psubs if we had to follow these rules, witch I highly doubt in Canada anyways. Not that I want rules--that is the last thing I want. Hank On Saturday, July 15, 2017 3:16 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I reiterate, this will be the death of home built non commercial personal submarines. Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Date: 7/15/17 1:54 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Hank, you mightn't have seen Scott's post so have copied it below. The MTS (Marine Technology Society) has been around since 1963 & has a sub committee MUV (Manned Underwater Vehicles). This committee is headed by Will Kohnen mailto:willkohnen at hydrospacegroup.com They have been approached by authorities to give them some guidelines / rules on how to deal with submersibles, & MUV have set up a committee to do this. So the stick has already been poked in the beehive! As Jon says, as a group we should have been approached for our input early on; but we still have an opportunity to insist on being involved! Regards Alan Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates. Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an "Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation, would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The safety officer from my company (Pisces VI) is on the board as well as alot of very smart under water professionals. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Seems, poking a bee hive with a stick is bad! Why do anything? Alan just say "In Canada, nobody bothers Psubs" This all started because a group of attention seekers built a bathtub submarine for the wrong reasons. I don't think (hope) they will get hurt-- did you see the look on that kids face when he was having trouble--I bet he needed to change his shorts when he got to shore. A good scare will stop them from continuing and maybe they will build a space ship out of a hot water tank, before something bad happens. Hank On Saturday, July 15, 2017 5:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Jon, any thoughts on where we want to go with this? My interest is that as Scott pointed out, other countries will follow the U.S. in this regard. This could well have a positive outcome in that what was a grey area that had authorities scratching their heads, can now be clarified & the regulations quoted. It would make it easy for me & pacify the authorities here if I could say in America..... Do there have to be more rules or just a classification of submersibles as being under the same guidelines as other boats of a similar size? Regards Alan Sent from my iPad On 15/07/2017, at 2:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Jon, My two bits for what it?s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation, regulations, etc., are just what we don?t need more of . . I am a life-member of MTS, but I think that Psubs simply asking to be a ?primary contributor? would miss the point ? BTW, who asked MTS to become involved in subs ? personal or commercial, in the first place? As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with world-wide certification agency requirements ? I?d hate to see yet another player get their foot in the door! Phil Nuytten From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform OK get your point Jon on not being invited. Lets insist in our inclusion. Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in the boat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to. You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobody will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules & it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you go down the "Rules " path, where does it end! In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don't injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 year period 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents. If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makers would step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a small boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Alan, My thoughts. Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours. Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? What weight is given to our input? How do we resolve disputes? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee? Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations. Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas. Sound like a good, rational, logical plan? I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines. So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? That is not a rhetorical question. Jon On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Jon, Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen. Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance! Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined), so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid it. In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing, where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 16 20:27:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:27:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1704885132.110980.1500251232288@mail.yahoo.com> Wow, great sub. ?I am shocked the cylinder section of hull is carbon?fibre ?and the heads titanium. ? I would have expected all titanium, especially the cylinder. ?I guess ?carbon fibre is strong enough after all .Hank On Sunday, July 16, 2017 10:03 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Wow, what an audacious expedition! Well wishes to all who are going deep. What an opportunity... ~ Douglas S. On 7/16/17, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40393913 > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 09:57:27 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:57:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> Message-ID: <5daa3e97-858e-a355-7085-c81d67c06bb4@psubs.org> I think we both know the answer to that question, Phil. Jon On 7/14/2017 10:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > BTW, who asked MTS to become involved in subs ? personal or > commercial, in the first place? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 11:30:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 11:30:16 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> Message-ID: <875693f9-8fc9-112c-d89d-8a67e7faa61d@psubs.org> Alan, I've been contemplating options. I happen to agree with Phil's suggestion that being a primary contributor to MTS is in many ways missing the point. Additionally, I am convinced that the MUVMTS leadership will not accept anything less than labeling or categorizing personal submarines in a pretense to provide the CG an ability to severely regulate their use, and so my personal belief is that our efforts would simply fall on deaf ears. I believe our best course is to move beyond MTS and start demanding the CG and other government entities deal with PSUBS directly for any issues of concern regarding personal submarines. I looked back in my email archive and did find an exchange with Will Kohnen in late February of 2014 that I had forgotten about. On 2/24/2014 I was contacted by a PSUBS member to make me aware that Will Kohnen was telling folks there was talk that the USCG was looking to "regulate home-built subs" (direct quote). I contacted Kohnen via email and asked what was going on and whom at the CG was the primary contact seeking such regulations. He responded that it was the Marine Safety Division and in particular an official named Ken Smith that was in charge of seeking rules from MTS. The plan, according to Kohnen, was to attach these rules/regulations to the ASME PVHO document. Since the document is used for self regulation there would be no immediate impact on anyone, however the idea was that the CG could then adopt these rules because they were now ASME rules, an industry standard. I contacted Ken Smith at the USCG on 2/25/2014 and talked to him about this issue. I do not remember the details of that conversation however I did write another PSUBS member on 2/26/2014 via email thereby preserving my thoughts at the time. My message to the psubber was: "I called Ken Smith at the CG yesterday and talked to him about this. He claims the CG is has no current intention to regulate and Congress has not asked them to come up with any regulations. Of course, if something happened they may be inclined to, but they don't see it as a major issue right now. He suggested we work with ASME if we want to be proactive but of course they are not likely to listen to us. So he suggested that I could filter things through him...he has a contact at ASME." Based upon my conversation with the CG there was an obvious conflict between what Kohnen was asserting and what the CG was asserting in regards to the need for personal submarine regulations. I engaged Kohnen further and learned that he believed a clear demarcation was necessary to separate commercial and personal submarines, rationalizing it as a need required by the public because they wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two disciplines if a personal submarine had an accident. He further suggested, "The biggest concern of the USCG is that lack of differentiation in the submersible industry. They are aware that this type of cross-over linkage between the Personal and Commercial vehicles can put them in the spot light and they will be ill equipped to explain the differences. It is not to say there isn't a difference at the moment, but once the headlines are out there, the damage is done - unless something tangible can be shown." It seemed clear to me that at least part of Kohnen's justification in creating these regulations was because he was worried about what the public thinks given a critical event involving a personal submarine, and a mechanism to bail out the USCG who might not be prepared to articulate the differences between commercial and personal submarines in such an event. I believe those are illegitimate purposes for creating regulations. I responded to Kohnen that labels of any kind targeting PSUBS was an issue for us and that there seemed to be "an element of contempt" for personal submersibles by some in the commercial industry. I also wrote at length describing why I believed it was not axiomatic that an accident involving a personal submarine would negatively impact the commercial market. Kohnen's response was "I am afraid it doesn't matter so much what we both believe." This solidified in my mind that no matter what PSUBS recommended, MTS already had their minds made up. That is the history I have on the matter other than what has been discussed in recent days. I don't like the back-door approach being taken with the ASME PVHO document and expect I will be contacting the USCG shortly to reopen this matter with them. If nothing else, I want to know definitively whether the CG is talking out of both sides of their mouths or if they are just being used as a vehicle for MTS to initiate regulations on personal submarines for their own purposes. Jon On 7/15/2017 7:34 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > any thoughts on where we want to go with this? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 11:50:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 11:50:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <875693f9-8fc9-112c-d89d-8a67e7faa61d@psubs.org> Message-ID: <15d513e0af1-3cb5-b6d1@webprd-m96.mail.aol.com> Jon, Would you contact me offsite? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jul 17, 2017 11:30 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Alan, I've been contemplating options. I happen to agree with Phil's suggestion that being a primary contributor to MTS is in many ways missing the point. Additionally, I am convinced that the MUVMTS leadership will not accept anything less than labeling or categorizing personal submarines in a pretense to provide the CG an ability to severely regulate their use, and so my personal belief is that our efforts would simply fall on deaf ears. I believe our best course is to move beyond MTS and start demanding the CG and other government entities deal with PSUBS directly for any issues of concern regarding personal submarines. I looked back in my email archive and did find an exchange with Will Kohnen in late February of 2014 that I had forgotten about. On 2/24/2014 I was contacted by a PSUBS member to make me aware that Will Kohnen was telling folks there was talk that the USCG was looking to "regulate home-built subs" (direct quote). I contacted Kohnen via email and asked what was going on and whom at the CG was the primary contact seeking such regulations. He responded that it was the Marine Safety Division and in particular an official named Ken Smith that was in charge of seeking rules from MTS. The plan, according to Kohnen, was to attach these rules/regulations to the ASME PVHO document. Since the document is used for self regulation there would be no immediate impact on anyone, however the idea was that the CG could then adopt these rules because they were now ASME rules, an industry standard. I contacted Ken Smith at the USCG on 2/25/2014 and talked to him about this issue. I do not remember the details of that conversation however I did write another PSUBS member on 2/26/2014 via email thereby preserving my thoughts at the time. My message to the psubber was: "I called Ken Smith at the CG yesterday and talked to him about this. He claims the CG is has no current intention to regulate and Congress has not asked them to come up with any regulations. Of course, if something happened they may be inclined to, but they don't see it as a major issue right now. He suggested we work with ASME if we want to be proactive but of course they are not likely to listen to us. So he suggested that I could filter things through him...he has a contact at ASME." Based upon my conversation with the CG there was an obvious conflict between what Kohnen was asserting and what the CG was asserting in regards to the need for personal submarine regulations. I engaged Kohnen further and learned that he believed a clear demarcation was necessary to separate commercial and personal submarines, rationalizing it as a need required by the public because they wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two disciplines if a personal submarine had an accident. He further suggested, "The biggest concern of the USCG is that lack of differentiation in the submersible industry. They are aware that this type of cross-over linkage between the Personal and Commercial vehicles can put them in the spot light and they will be ill equipped to explain the differences. It is not to say there isn't a difference at the moment, but once the headlines are out there, the damage is done - unless something tangible can be shown." It seemed clear to me that at least part of Kohnen's justification in creating these regulations was because he was worried about what the public thinks given a critical event involving a personal submarine, and a mechanism to bail out the USCG who might not be prepared to articulate the differences between commercial and personal submarines in such an event. I believe those are illegitimate purposes for creating regulations. I responded to Kohnen that labels of any kind targeting PSUBS was an issue for us and that there seemed to be "an element of contempt" for personal submersibles by some in the commercial industry. I also wrote at length describing why I believed it was not axiomatic that an accident involving a personal submarine would negatively impact the commercial market. Kohnen's response was "I am afraid it doesn't matter so much what we both believe." This solidified in my mind that no matter what PSUBS recommended, MTS already had their minds made up. That is the history I have on the matter other than what has been discussed in recent days. I don't like the back-door approach being taken with the ASME PVHO document and expect I will be contacting the USCG shortly to reopen this matter with them. If nothing else, I want to know definitively whether the CG is talking out of both sides of their mouths or if they are just being used as a vehicle for MTS to initiate regulations on personal submarines for their own purposes. Jon On 7/15/2017 7:34 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, any thoughts on where we want to go with this? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 11:57:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 11:57:36 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <15d513e0af1-3cb5-b6d1@webprd-m96.mail.aol.com> References: <15d513e0af1-3cb5-b6d1@webprd-m96.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <291ed154-89f3-9bf2-f1a2-168751f0998f@ohiohills.com> In about 1980 I was first interested in a small submarine, and the first thing I did was write a letter to the USCG. The reply was that they had no rules concerning personal submarines and it had been determined that there was no reason for them to think about it. I had the impression that the question had not arisen often. Yes, it was a long time ago but it's a part of the evolution of any regulation of the activity. I might even still have the letter. Mike --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 16:55:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 08:55:46 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <875693f9-8fc9-112c-d89d-8a67e7faa61d@psubs.org> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> <875693f9-8fc9-112c-d89d-8a67e7faa61d@psubs.org> Message-ID: <8FFC7CC9-2D66-443F-8DE6-3A4F51E480F2@yahoo.com> Thanks for searching that out Jon, if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel written on it? I doubt it. I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in limiting any rules for personal submersibles. Regards Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alan, > > I've been contemplating options. I happen to agree with Phil's suggestion that being a primary contributor to MTS is in many ways missing the point. Additionally, I am convinced that the MUVMTS leadership will not accept anything less than labeling or categorizing personal submarines in a pretense to provide the CG an ability to severely regulate their use, and so my personal belief is that our efforts would simply fall on deaf ears. I believe our best course is to move beyond MTS and start demanding the CG and other government entities deal with PSUBS directly for any issues of concern regarding personal submarines. > > I looked back in my email archive and did find an exchange with Will Kohnen in late February of 2014 that I had forgotten about. On 2/24/2014 I was contacted by a PSUBS member to make me aware that Will Kohnen was telling folks there was talk that the USCG was looking to "regulate home-built subs" (direct quote). I contacted Kohnen via email and asked what was going on and whom at the CG was the primary contact seeking such regulations. He responded that it was the Marine Safety Division and in particular an official named Ken Smith that was in charge of seeking rules from MTS. The plan, according to Kohnen, was to attach these rules/regulations to the ASME PVHO document. Since the document is used for self regulation there would be no immediate impact on anyone, however the idea was that the CG could then adopt these rules because they were now ASME rules, an industry standard. > > I contacted Ken Smith at the USCG on 2/25/2014 and talked to him about this issue. I do not remember the details of that conversation however I did write another PSUBS member on 2/26/2014 via email thereby preserving my thoughts at the time. My message to the psubber was: > > "I called Ken Smith at the CG yesterday and talked to him about this. He claims the CG is has no current intention to regulate and Congress has not asked them to come up with any regulations. Of course, if something happened they may be inclined to, but they don't see it as a major issue right now. He suggested we work with ASME if we want to be proactive but of course they are not likely to listen to us. So he suggested that I could filter things through him...he has a contact at ASME." > > Based upon my conversation with the CG there was an obvious conflict between what Kohnen was asserting and what the CG was asserting in regards to the need for personal submarine regulations. I engaged Kohnen further and learned that he believed a clear demarcation was necessary to separate commercial and personal submarines, rationalizing it as a need required by the public because they wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two disciplines if a personal submarine had an accident. He further suggested, "The biggest concern of the USCG is that lack of differentiation in the submersible industry. They are aware that this type of cross-over linkage between the Personal and Commercial vehicles can put them in the spot light and they will be ill equipped to explain the differences. It is not to say there isn't a difference at the moment, but once the headlines are out there, the damage is done - unless something tangible can be shown." > > It seemed clear to me that at least part of Kohnen's justification in creating these regulations was because he was worried about what the public thinks given a critical event involving a personal submarine, and a mechanism to bail out the USCG who might not be prepared to articulate the differences between commercial and personal submarines in such an event. I believe those are illegitimate purposes for creating regulations. I responded to Kohnen that labels of any kind targeting PSUBS was an issue for us and that there seemed to be "an element of contempt" for personal submersibles by some in the commercial industry. I also wrote at length describing why I believed it was not axiomatic that an accident involving a personal submarine would negatively impact the commercial market. Kohnen's response was "I am afraid it doesn't matter so much what we both believe." This solidified in my mind that no matter what PSUBS recommended, MTS already had their minds made up. > > That is the history I have on the matter other than what has been discussed in recent days. I don't like the back-door approach being taken with the ASME PVHO document and expect I will be contacting the USCG shortly to reopen this matter with them. If nothing else, I want to know definitively whether the CG is talking out of both sides of their mouths or if they are just being used as a vehicle for MTS to initiate regulations on personal submarines for their own purposes. > > Jon > > > >> On 7/15/2017 7:34 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Jon, >> any thoughts on where we want to go with this? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 17:42:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:42:16 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: lathe arrives at new shop In-Reply-To: WAk4dNJ2MsSDNWAk6dUpnj References: <8f5ab6bb-b462-41ec-b36e-27908e88d2dd@email.android.com> <225858138.865228.1500077535703@mail.yahoo.com> WAk4dNJ2MsSDNWAk6dUpnj Message-ID: <1244eac3-9c92-41f3-9f02-7c759f787c19@email.android.com> Hank, I'm a technologist with a limited license to practice professional engineering within a defined scope, which may not meet your requirements if you need anything stamped. That said, I'm happy to contribute where I can. Send me the machine specs. ;-) Sean On July 14, 2017 6:14:50 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,You can?benefit from my new lathe also, I need engineering and you >need machining for your new sub, hmmmmHank > >On Friday, July 14, 2017 6:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >Thanks Alan, yes the table will go up and down and side to side >lolSean, I do not have three phase, my plan is to remove the 30 hp >motor and drive the lathe with a 34hp Duetz diesel engine with >commercial centrifugal clutch. ?The engine will be outside the shop >with a drive shaft through the wall. ? Then I will buy a converter to >drive the two small motors and controller. ?Actually the controller >might be single phase, lots of investigating to do.Hank > >On Friday, July 14, 2017 6:04 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > You have three phase service? or a converter?Sean > > >On July 14, 2017 5:26:28 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >I can't believe it, one week ago I find and buy my 26,300 lb vertical >lathe. ?Today it has arrived at my new shop. ?It will take at least 8 >hr to jack and roll it off the low bed trailer. ?After it is off and >the truck is gone, I have to lower it and roll it into the shop, but >first I have to remove the exterior wall and cut a hole in the ceiling >of the shop. ?There is a two bedroom apartment above the shop, so now >there will be a section of lathe poking through ?the living room floor. >?I am renovating the exterior of the shop anyways.Hank > > On Friday, July 14, 2017 5:13 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: > > > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 18:07:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 22:07:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: lathe arrives at new shop In-Reply-To: <1244eac3-9c92-41f3-9f02-7c759f787c19@email.android.com> References: <8f5ab6bb-b462-41ec-b36e-27908e88d2dd@email.android.com> <225858138.865228.1500077535703@mail.yahoo.com> <1244eac3-9c92-41f3-9f02-7c759f787c19@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1618775621.2641160.1500329230395@mail.yahoo.com> Thank you Sean,I am actually talking with?Jonathan at EE and they are happy to form HY-100 heads for me now. ?He says times are changing and they have time to ?do this stuff now. ?Can you run a couple scenarios through your program for me. ?Hy-100 42 inch ID ?in 1 inch material and 2 inch material. The Lathe has a 1200 mm swing and 700 mm vertical ?and it can do tapers as well, so?conical parts here we come ;-) ?The lathe is now at ground level and 20 feet from the shop lolHank On Monday, July 17, 2017 3:42 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I'm a technologist with a limited license to practice professional engineering within a defined scope, which may not meet your requirements if you need anything stamped. That said, I'm happy to contribute where I can.Send me the machine specs.? ;-)Sean On July 14, 2017 6:14:50 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,You can?benefit from my new lathe also, I need engineering and you need machining for your new sub, hmmmmHank On Friday, July 14, 2017 6:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Alan, yes the table will go up and down and side to side lolSean, I do not have three phase, my plan is to remove the 30 hp motor and drive the lathe with a 34hp Duetz diesel engine with commercial centrifugal clutch. ?The engine will be outside the shop with a drive shaft through the wall. ? Then I will buy a converter to drive the two small motors and controller. ?Actually the controller might be single phase, lots of investigating to do.Hank On Friday, July 14, 2017 6:04 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You have three phase service? or a converter?Sean On July 14, 2017 5:26:28 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I can't believe it, one week ago I find and buy my 26,300 lb vertical lathe. ?Today it has arrived at my new shop. ?It will take at least 8 hr to jack and roll it off the low bed trailer. ?After it is off and the truck is gone, I have to lower it and roll it into the shop, but first I have to remove the exterior wall and cut a hole in the ceiling of the shop. ?There is a two bedroom apartment above the shop, so now there will be a section of lathe poking through ?the living room floor. ?I am renovating the exterior of the shop anyways.Hank On Friday, July 14, 2017 5:13 PM, xxx xxxxx wrote: Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 19:55:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 19:55:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <8FFC7CC9-2D66-443F-8DE6-3A4F51E480F2@yahoo.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> <875693f9-8fc9-112c-d89d-8a67e7faa61d@psubs.org> <8FFC7CC9-2D66-443F-8DE6-3A4F51E480F2@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2297d5d4-748f-0919-1bc9-b6c72f5a048f@psubs.org> Hi Alan, Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding commercial fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, it would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. Jon On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Thanks for searching that out Jon, > if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial > submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to > mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" emblazoned > on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a surface boat > under > 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel written on it? I doubt it. > I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles originally > & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I have seen of > Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy rather than a > commercial > vehicle; so his interests would lie in limiting any rules for personal > submersibles. > Regards Alan > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 19:55:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 23:55:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inner tube bladder References: <1831944890.2693296.1500335740956.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1831944890.2693296.1500335740956@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,When you mentioned using gasoline for buoyancy and showed a nice bladder for fuel, I did a test. ?I though about what would be the lowest cost bladder to hold gasoline. ?I thought of an inner tube, so I went to my inner tube spot on the shelf and cut sample pieces and put them in a jar with gasoline. I don't remember how long ago that was now but I just checked the sample and the inner tube rubber appears unaffected. ?When I googled the idea, I did not find positive information, so a test was in order. ?I also have a long running test of an inner tube with oil in it, for over a year now I have been testing that, so far all is good.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 20:29:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 12:29:40 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inner tube bladder In-Reply-To: <1831944890.2693296.1500335740956@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1831944890.2693296.1500335740956.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1831944890.2693296.1500335740956@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B936CD8-DE32-46E1-BDB7-2CE16591058A@yahoo.com> Hank, I like the purpose built flexible gas tanks because they are easy to fill & empty, & built for the purpose. Don't fancy filling an inner tube with gas through a valve! I had suggested before that if you were doing long transits with your sub you could fill up those flexible tanks at a gas station at your destination. Maybe pour their contents back in your car for the return trip! ( or did you say you were running deisel). You need some sort of structure to support them, so why not ( as previously suggested) build fibreglass tanks with some sort of diaphragm for the small bit of equalisation you may need! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > When you mentioned using gasoline for buoyancy and showed a nice bladder for fuel, I did a test. I though about what would be the lowest cost bladder to hold gasoline. I thought of an inner tube, so I went to my inner tube spot on the shelf and cut sample pieces and put them in a jar with gasoline. I don't remember how long ago that was now but I just checked the sample and the inner tube rubber appears unaffected. When I googled the idea, I did not find positive information, so a test was in order. I also have a long running test of an inner tube with oil in it, for over a year now I have been testing that, so far all is good. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 20:50:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 12:50:23 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inner tube bladder In-Reply-To: <1831944890.2693296.1500335740956@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1831944890.2693296.1500335740956.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1831944890.2693296.1500335740956@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0be501d2ff5f$d93e9920$8bbbcb60$@gmail.com> Hi Hank, Hypalon is what is used for fuel bladders in some cases. I had ones made up from a rubber boat manufacturer. Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 11:56 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inner tube bladder Alan, When you mentioned using gasoline for buoyancy and showed a nice bladder for fuel, I did a test. I though about what would be the lowest cost bladder to hold gasoline. I thought of an inner tube, so I went to my inner tube spot on the shelf and cut sample pieces and put them in a jar with gasoline. I don't remember how long ago that was now but I just checked the sample and the inner tube rubber appears unaffected. When I googled the idea, I did not find positive information, so a test was in order. I also have a long running test of an inner tube with oil in it, for over a year now I have been testing that, so far all is good. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 20:59:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 12:59:15 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <2297d5d4-748f-0919-1bc9-b6c72f5a048f@psubs.org> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> <875693f9-8fc9-112c-d89d-8a67e7faa61d@psubs.org> <8FFC7CC9-2D66-443F-8DE6-3A4F51E480F2@yahoo.com> <2297d5d4-748f-0919-1bc9-b6c72f5a048f@psubs.org> Message-ID: <2BF2A15C-C91D-45BC-8C7F-75C8288FA735@yahoo.com> Jon, they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > > Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding commercial fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > > As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, it would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > > Jon > > > >> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" emblazoned >> on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a surface boat under >> 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel written on it? I doubt it. >> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles originally >> & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I have seen of >> Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy rather than a commercial >> vehicle; so his interests would lie in limiting any rules for personal submersibles. >> Regards Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 20:58:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 00:58:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] inner tube bladder In-Reply-To: <4B936CD8-DE32-46E1-BDB7-2CE16591058A@yahoo.com> References: <1831944890.2693296.1500335740956.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1831944890.2693296.1500335740956@mail.yahoo.com> <4B936CD8-DE32-46E1-BDB7-2CE16591058A@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2114146970.2765140.1500339518597@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I agree?completely, I am just a guy that leaves no stone unturned, thats all. ?Just thought it was interesting.Hank On Monday, July 17, 2017 6:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I like the purpose built flexible gas tanks because they are easy to fill & empty,& built for the purpose. Don't fancy filling an inner tube with gas through a valve!I had suggested before that if you were doing long transits with your sub you?could fill up those flexible tanks at a gas station at your destination. Maybe pourtheir contents back in your car for the return trip! ( or did you say you were runningdeisel).?You need some sort of structure to support them, so why not ( as previously suggested)build fibreglass tanks with some sort of diaphragm for the small bit of equalisationyou may need!Alan Sent from my iPad On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,When you mentioned using gasoline for buoyancy and showed a nice bladder for fuel, I did a test. ?I though about what would be the lowest cost bladder to hold gasoline. ?I thought of an inner tube, so I went to my inner tube spot on the shelf and cut sample pieces and put them in a jar with gasoline. I don't remember how long ago that was now but I just checked the sample and the inner tube rubber appears unaffected. ?When I googled the idea, I did not find positive information, so a test was in order. ?I also have a long running test of an inner tube with oil in it, for over a year now I have been testing that, so far all is good.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 21:46:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 13:46:55 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <2BF2A15C-C91D-45BC-8C7F-75C8288FA735@yahoo.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> <875693f9-8fc9-112c-d89d-8a67e7faa61d@psubs.org> <8FFC7CC9-2D66-443F-8DE6-3A4F51E480F2@yahoo.com> <2297d5d4-748f-0919-1bc9-b6c72f5a048f@psubs.org> <2BF2A15C-C91D-45BC-8C7F-75C8288FA735@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0c1001d2ff67$bf4cc700$3de65500$@gmail.com> Jon, I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required :- Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. Witnessed test dive. (Carsten can correct all this) Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. Just my pennies worth. Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Jon, they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > > Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding commercial fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > > As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, it would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > > Jon > > > >> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel written on it? I doubt it. >> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in limiting any rules for personal submersibles. >> Regards Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 22:15:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 20:15:51 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1" shell thickness Message-ID: Interestingly, with no corrosion allowance, this one is almost bang on perfectly neutral in seawater. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: imigoacnnhecpjmp.png Type: image/png Size: 59380 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 22:20:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 20:20:26 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 2" shell thickness Message-ID: <93940bfc-37bd-d11f-9814-a5098a157e7b@telus.net> This one will take you well beyond Titanic, with a working depth of almost 19,000 feet (no corrosion allowance). You'll need over 1500 lbs of buoyancy from syntactic foam or other sources, though. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fklagcagggpplbhn.png Type: image/png Size: 59521 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 22:26:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 20:26:50 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 12500 fsw working depth Message-ID: For this one, I used the solver the other way, entering the depth of the Titanic (12,500 fsw) and solving for the required shell thickness. Looks like 1-3/8" of HY-100 will get you there, again not accounting for corrosion allowance or safety factors beyond the ABS minimum. About 500 lbs of supplemental buoyancy required in this iteration. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ijcodnhfighfmobo.png Type: image/png Size: 59405 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 17 22:42:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 20:42:08 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) Message-ID: Finally, because I thought you might end up asking for it, here is the sphere using 1.5" thick HY-100, where 1-13/32" is considered in the working depth calculation, and the remaining 3/32" is the applied corrosion allowance which does not contribute to working depth, but does affect the final weight and buoyancy characteristics. The mean and outer diameter indicators do not update after the corrosion allowance is applied, but these dimensions would be 43.5" and 45" respectively. In this iteration, you need about 770 lbs of supplemental buoyancy, but you can put her deep in the mud beside Titanic at high tide without issue. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gggfglenkjbpbklp.png Type: image/png Size: 60180 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 18 03:56:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 07:56:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <672839180.2914794.1500364560857@mail.yahoo.com> Thank you Sean,Good to know it can dive even at high tide ;-) ?Now I can find out ?if it is more cost effective to use HY-100 and less foam or 516-70 and lots of foam.Hank On Monday, July 17, 2017 8:42 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Finally, because I thought you might end up asking for it, here is the sphere using 1.5" thick HY-100, where 1-13/32" is considered in the working depth calculation, and the remaining 3/32" is the applied corrosion allowance which does not contribute to working depth, but does affect the final weight and buoyancy characteristics.? The mean and outer diameter indicators do not update after the corrosion allowance is applied, but these dimensions would be 43.5" and 45" respectively.? In this iteration, you need about 770 lbs of supplemental buoyancy, but you can put her deep in the mud beside Titanic at high tide without issue. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gggfglenkjbpbklp.png Type: image/png Size: 60180 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 18 04:06:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 03:06:33 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) Message-ID: <201707180806.v6I867pf076442@whoweb.com> Hank, Where is your source for HY-100? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/18/17 2:56 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) Thank you Sean,Good to know it can dive even at high tide ;-) ?Now I can find out ?if it is more cost effective to use HY-100 and less foam or 516-70 and lots of foam.Hank On Monday, July 17, 2017 8:42 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Finally, because I thought you might end up asking for it, here is the sphere using 1.5" thick HY-100, where 1-13/32" is considered in the working depth calculation, and the remaining 3/32" is the applied corrosion allowance which does not contribute to working depth, but does affect the final weight and buoyancy characteristics.? The mean and outer diameter indicators do not update after the corrosion allowance is applied, but these dimensions would be 43.5" and 45" respectively.? In this iteration, you need about 770 lbs of supplemental buoyancy, but you can put her deep in the mud beside Titanic at high tide without issue. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 18 07:47:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:47:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) In-Reply-To: <201707180806.v6I867pf076442@whoweb.com> References: <201707180806.v6I867pf076442@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <1712904432.3010357.1500378465452@mail.yahoo.com> Scott,I sent a request for a quote, so I am not sure yet that I have a source yet.Hank On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 2:06 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Where is your source for HY-100? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/18/17 2:56 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) Thank you Sean,Good to know it can dive even at high tide ;-) ?Now I can find out ?if it is more cost effective to use HY-100 and less foam or 516-70 and lots of foam.Hank On Monday, July 17, 2017 8:42 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Finally, because I thought you might end up asking for it, here is the sphere using 1.5" thick HY-100, where 1-13/32" is considered in the working depth calculation, and the remaining 3/32" is the applied corrosion allowance which does not contribute to working depth, but does affect the final weight and buoyancy characteristics.? The mean and outer diameter indicators do not update after the corrosion allowance is applied, but these dimensions would be 43.5" and 45" respectively.? In this iteration, you need about 770 lbs of supplemental buoyancy, but you can put her deep in the mud beside Titanic at high tide without issue. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 18 12:48:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:48:29 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) Message-ID: <201707181648.v6IGm3HN080047@whoweb.com> Ahh. Ok.?Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/18/17 6:47 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) Scott,I sent a request for a quote, so I am not sure yet that I have a source yet.Hank On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 2:06 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Where is your source for HY-100? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/18/17 2:56 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) Thank you Sean,Good to know it can dive even at high tide ;-) ?Now I can find out ?if it is more cost effective to use HY-100 and less foam or 516-70 and lots of foam.Hank On Monday, July 17, 2017 8:42 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Finally, because I thought you might end up asking for it, here is the sphere using 1.5" thick HY-100, where 1-13/32" is considered in the working depth calculation, and the remaining 3/32" is the applied corrosion allowance which does not contribute to working depth, but does affect the final weight and buoyancy characteristics.? The mean and outer diameter indicators do not update after the corrosion allowance is applied, but these dimensions would be 43.5" and 45" respectively.? In this iteration, you need about 770 lbs of supplemental buoyancy, but you can put her deep in the mud beside Titanic at high tide without issue. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 18 14:06:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 12:06:51 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) In-Reply-To: XR80dAyZTwSGxXR82dtXle References: <201707180806.v6I867pf076442@whoweb.com> XR80dAyZTwSGxXR82dtXle Message-ID: Who did you request a quote from? Sean On July 18, 2017 5:47:45 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Scott,I sent a request for a quote, so I am not sure yet that I have a >source yet.Hank > >On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 2:06 AM, Scott Waters via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, >Where is your source for HY-100? >Thanks,Scott Waters > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/18/17 >2:56 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 >full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion >allowance (1.5" total) >Thank you Sean,Good to know it can dive even at high tide ;-) ?Now I >can find out ?if it is more cost effective to use HY-100 and less foam >or 516-70 and lots of foam.Hank > >On Monday, July 17, 2017 8:42 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Finally, because I thought you might end up asking for it, here is the >sphere using 1.5" thick HY-100, where 1-13/32" is considered in the >working depth calculation, and the remaining 3/32" is the applied >corrosion allowance which does not contribute to working depth, but >does affect the final weight and buoyancy characteristics.? The mean >and outer diameter indicators do not update after the corrosion >allowance is applied, but these dimensions would be 43.5" and 45" >respectively.? In this iteration, you need about 770 lbs of >supplemental buoyancy, but you can put her deep in the mud beside >Titanic at high tide without issue. Sean > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 18 17:52:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:52:31 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Message-ID: <34D76854-66EC-4FD1-A63F-B299DAAF1317@yahoo.com> Hi all, I recently emailed Will Kohnen from the position of a foreigner concerned that any submersible regulations that his organization draughted would eventually be adopted by my Country. I also mentioned lack of consultation with Psubs. Below is his reply. I am extremely sensitive to the Psubs issues and there is no need to change much in the Psubs community. It is rather everybody else that needs attention. There are many Psubs members that participate in the dialogue and also talk with Jon. I would encourage Psubs to come and participate and you may find life is a happy place. I don't know what else to say. The US Coast Guard current regulations are reasonably clear that any self-built, recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as no money changes hand. This works for Psubs, no problem, and there is no reason to change that. There is the slight footnote in the regulations that notwithstanding, the Captains of the port can ignore the rules and decide to allow or deny operations as they see fit. This can lead to a lot of confusion and inconsistency. Again, the problem is not with Psubs (although the tenure is tenuous), but with the rest of the industry that is trying to make a viable economic development in the field. The moment there is a single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger for Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine. That leaves an awfully large gap between Psubs and Atlantis and to suggest that the entire industry has to position itself on one side or the other is a bit lacking in granularity. The industry has moved and evolved since 1993. So, No - the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want, and it may even be helpful for the world at large that this freedom be better defined so as to secure this right. In the US, since the US Coast guard has come under Homeland Security, the freedom of Psubs (and everybody else) is one incident away from serious "Broad-level" regulation, written by folks in govt that really don't give a hoot for the sub industry. So it may not be a bad idea to be pre-emptive. That's all. What we are discussing in much greater detail is the need to allow companies to operate "Without" Coast Guard regulations if the sub is Classed and carries less that 6 "Occupants", and where we define what an "Occup0ant" is, as NOT a passenger. This would open up the economic feasibility for companies to do submarine work and charge money without the egregious Coast Guard certification (which still remains perfectly fine and applicable if you want to run a 40 passenger sub and carry innocent tourists underwater). There should also be a separate category for companies making subs that are made commercially but which are not Classed, and also carry 6 "occupants" or less. If you build a number of subs and you sell them commercially, unclassed, this is NOT a Psub anymore, or at least there needs to be a clear line. When Oceangate or Deepflight build subs that cannot be classed, for one reason or another, these are not Psubs. Where do they fit in the spectrum? Due to the economic impact and higher public profile of such subs, it behooves everyone to pay some attention to the proper "Categorization" of each group so that they are not all treated with one broad brush. This is fairly basic industry positioning for the well being of the industry and the protection of each group. I don't think the Coast Guard in any nation can properly sort that out, not in the US, NZ, AUS, Europe or China.... So that leaves us to think, be pragmatic, invest some time, energy, goodwill and work in good faith so we may end up with a regulatory environment that lets the entire MZUV industry become economically viable, while also preserving the freedom of the hobbyist. I've attached a rough categorization of sub types to include the "Atlantis Pax" subs (remaining as they are, the "Psubs" as they are today and added, Commercial Sub, Uninspected Subs and Submarines, which were never attended to and which may in the future. The door is wide open at the conference and I hope Psubs will increase its participation beyond a handful of individuals. There is no big rush but it is worth pushing forward. The govt's everywhere would be more than happy to find a template they can adopt and use as a baseline for their handling of these issues. Again, thank you for reaching out and I hope we get to discuss this in more detail as we go. All the best Will Sent from my iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CATEGORY of OPS TABLE - MUV Operating CONSENSUS STD (Feb-2017).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 11206 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 18 18:15:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 22:15:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) In-Reply-To: References: <201707180806.v6I867pf076442@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <2082087510.3203.1500416119575@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,I request a quote from Master Source in Akron Ohio. ?They have not replied and given my history doubt they will. ? I will have to phone them since my emails do not have that polished engineers touch. ?They likely don't take me seriously.Hank On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 12:07 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Who did you request a quote from?Sean On July 18, 2017 5:47:45 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Scott,I sent a request for a quote, so I am not sure yet that I have a source yet.Hank On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 2:06 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Where is your source for HY-100? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/18/17 2:56 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) Thank you Sean,Good to know it can dive even at high tide ;-) ?Now I can find out ?if it is more cost effective to use HY-100 and less foam or 516-70 and lots of foam.Hank On Monday! , July17, 2017 8:42 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Finally, because I thought you might end up asking for it, here is the sphere using 1.5" thick HY-100, where 1-13/32" is considered in the working depth calculation, and the remaining 3/32" is the applied corrosion allowance which does not contribute to working depth, but does affect the final weight and buoyancy characteristics.? The mean and outer diameter indicators do not update after the corrosion allowance is applied, but these dimensions would be 43.5" and 45" respectively.? In this iteration, you need about 770 lbs of supplemental buoyancy, but you can put her deep in the mud beside Titanic at high tide without issue. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 18 18:32:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 17:32:39 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: <34D76854-66EC-4FD1-A63F-B299DAAF1317@yahoo.com> References: <34D76854-66EC-4FD1-A63F-B299DAAF1317@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you Alan That seems to be thoughtful response. Best regards, Greg > On Jul 18, 2017, at 4:52 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > I recently emailed Will Kohnen from the position of a foreigner concerned > that any submersible regulations that his organization draughted would > eventually be adopted by my Country. > I also mentioned lack of consultation with Psubs. Below is his reply. > > I am extremely sensitive to the Psubs issues and there is no need to change > much in the Psubs community. It is rather everybody else that needs > attention. There are many Psubs members that participate in the dialogue and > also talk with Jon. I would encourage Psubs to come and participate and you > may find life is a happy place. I don't know what else to say. > > The US Coast Guard current regulations are reasonably clear that any > self-built, recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as > no money changes hand. This works for Psubs, no problem, and there is no > reason to change that. There is the slight footnote in the regulations that > notwithstanding, the Captains of the port can ignore the rules and decide to > allow or deny operations as they see fit. This can lead to a lot of > confusion and inconsistency. Again, the problem is not with Psubs (although > the tenure is tenuous), but with the rest of the industry that is trying to > make a viable economic development in the field. The moment there is a > single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger for > Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine. That leaves an awfully > large gap between Psubs and Atlantis and to suggest that the entire industry > has to position itself on one side or the other is a bit lacking in > granularity. The industry has moved and evolved since 1993. > > So, No - the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want, and it may > even be helpful for the world at large that this freedom be better defined > so as to secure this right. In the US, since the US Coast guard has come > under Homeland Security, the freedom of Psubs (and everybody else) is one > incident away from serious "Broad-level" regulation, written by folks in > govt that really don't give a hoot for the sub industry. So it may not be a > bad idea to be pre-emptive. > > That's all. > What we are discussing in much greater detail is the need to allow companies > to operate "Without" Coast Guard regulations if the sub is Classed and > carries less that 6 "Occupants", and where we define what an "Occup0ant" is, > as NOT a passenger. This would open up the economic feasibility for > companies to do submarine work and charge money without the egregious Coast > Guard certification (which still remains perfectly fine and applicable if > you want to run a 40 passenger sub and carry innocent tourists underwater). > > There should also be a separate category for companies making subs that are > made commercially but which are not Classed, and also carry 6 "occupants" or > less. If you build a number of subs and you sell them commercially, > unclassed, this is NOT a Psub anymore, or at least there needs to be a clear > line. When Oceangate or Deepflight build subs that cannot be classed, for > one reason or another, these are not Psubs. Where do they fit in the > spectrum? Due to the economic impact and higher public profile of such subs, > it behooves everyone to pay some attention to the proper "Categorization" of > each group so that they are not all treated with one broad brush. This is > fairly basic industry positioning for the well being of the industry and the > protection of each group. > > I don't think the Coast Guard in any nation can properly sort that out, not > in the US, NZ, AUS, Europe or China.... > So that leaves us to think, be pragmatic, invest some time, energy, goodwill > and work in good faith so we may end up with a regulatory environment that > lets the entire MZUV industry become economically viable, while also > preserving the freedom of the hobbyist. > > I've attached a rough categorization of sub types to include the "Atlantis > Pax" subs (remaining as they are, the "Psubs" as they are today and added, > Commercial Sub, Uninspected Subs and Submarines, which were never attended > to and which may in the future. > > The door is wide open at the conference and I hope Psubs will increase its > participation beyond a handful of individuals. > > There is no big rush but it is worth pushing forward. The govt's everywhere > would be more than happy to find a template they can adopt and use as a > baseline for their handling of these issues. > > Again, thank you for reaching out and I hope we get to discuss this in more > detail as we go. > All the best > Will > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 18 19:18:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 23:18:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) References: <1625765648.25621.1500419939307.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1625765648.25621.1500419939307@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Steve Fordyce,Can you contact me off list at hankpronk at live.caThank youHank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 18 21:39:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 18:39:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Message-ID: <20170718183940.3F828284@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 19 10:52:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 08:52:46 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) In-Reply-To: XaqXdq1jNoQOBXaqYdNhNS References: <201707180806.v6I867pf076442@whoweb.com> XaqXdq1jNoQOBXaqYdNhNS Message-ID: <91a267e7-3499-4e5b-9f52-4752e1a31954@email.android.com> Hank, check out www.usa.arcelormittal.com/what-we-do/steel-products/plate In the pdf file under military alloy steels there is contact information which might be useful for sourcing HY-100. Sean On July 18, 2017 4:15:19 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,I request a quote from Master Source in Akron Ohio. ?They have not >replied and given my history doubt they will. ? I will have to phone >them since my emails do not have that polished engineers touch. ?They >likely don't take me seriously.Hank > >On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 12:07 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Who did you request a quote from?Sean > > >On July 18, 2017 5:47:45 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >Scott,I sent a request for a quote, so I am not sure yet that I have a >source yet.Hank > >On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 2:06 AM, Scott Waters via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, >Where is your source for HY-100? >Thanks,Scott Waters > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >-------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/18/17 >2:56 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 >full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion >allowance (1.5" total) >Thank you Sean,Good to know it can dive even at high tide ;-) ?Now I >can find out ?if it is more cost effective to use HY-100 and less foam >or 516-70 and lots of foam.Hank > >On Monday! , July17, 2017 8:42 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Finally, because I thought you might end up asking for it, here is the >sphere using 1.5" thick HY-100, where 1-13/32" is considered in the >working depth calculation, and the remaining 3/32" is the applied >corrosion allowance which does not contribute to working depth, but >does affect the final weight and buoyancy characteristics.? The mean >and outer diameter indicators do not update after the corrosion >allowance is applied, but these dimensions would be 43.5" and 45" >respectively.? In this iteration, you need about 770 lbs of >supplemental buoyancy, but you can put her deep in the mud beside >Titanic at high tide without issue. Sean > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 19 15:48:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 21:48:38 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <0c1001d2ff67$bf4cc700$3de65500$@gmail.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> <875693f9-8fc9-112c-d89d-8a67e7faa61d@psubs.org> <8FFC7CC9-2D66-443F-8DE6-3A4F51E480F2@yahoo.com> <2297d5d4-748f-0919-1bc9-b6c72f5a048f@psubs.org> <2BF2A15C-C91D-45BC-8C7F-75C8288FA735@yahoo.com> <0c1001d2ff67$bf4cc700$3de65500$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1500493718361.5518087.7dc53dd429f05b2c865f9b6711d247d0dfd8464b@spica.telekom.de> Hugh, First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. I will give you an example: DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. Give me a call if you find one. Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Jon, I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required :- Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. Witnessed test dive. (Carsten can correct all this) Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. Just my pennies worth. Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Jon, they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > > Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding commercial fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > > As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, it would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > > Jon > > > >> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel written on it? I doubt it. >> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in limiting any rules for personal submersibles. >> Regards Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 19 17:43:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 21:43:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosion allowance (1.5" total) In-Reply-To: <91a267e7-3499-4e5b-9f52-4752e1a31954@email.android.com> References: <201707180806.v6I867pf076442@whoweb.com> <91a267e7-3499-4e5b-9f52-4752e1a31954@email.android.com> Message-ID: <808590367.781746.1500500625266@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,I just sent them an email request. ?I really think I will have to spend a day phoning around. ?I just don't get replies from these places. ?Hank On Wednesday, July 19, 2017, 11:32:16 AM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, check out www.usa.arcelormittal.com/what-we-do/steel-products/plate In the pdf file under military alloy steels there is contact information which might be useful for sourcing HY-100. Sean On July 18, 2017 4:15:19 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,I request a quote from Master Source in Akron Ohio. ?They have not replied and given my history doubt they will. ? I will have to phone them since my emails do not have that polished engineers touch. ?They likely don't take me seriously.Hank On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 12:07 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Who did you request a quote from?Sean On July 18, 2017 5:47:45 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Scott,I sent a request for a quote, so I am not sure yet that I have a source yet.Hank On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 2:06 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Where is your source for HY-100? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/18/17 2:56 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HY-100 full sphere, 42" ID, 1.40625" shell thickness + 3/32" corrosionallowance (1.5" total) Thank you Sean,Good to know it can dive even at high tide ;-) ?Now I can find out ?if it is more cost effective to use HY-100 and less foam or 516-70 and lots of foam.Hank On Monday! , July17, 2017 8:42 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Finally, because I thought you might end up asking for it, here is the sphere using 1.5" thick HY-100, where 1-13/32" is considered in the working depth calculation, and the remaining 3/32" is the applied corrosion allowance which does not contribute to working depth, but does affect the final weight and buoyancy characteristics.? The mean and outer diameter indicators do not update after the corrosion allowance is applied, but these dimensions would be 43.5" and 45" respectively.? In this iteration, you need about 770 lbs of supplemental buoyancy, but you can put her deep in the mud beside Titanic at high tide without issue. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 19 17:54:34 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 21:54:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed References: <1993208487.806913.1500501274853.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1993208487.806913.1500501274853@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I spent three days unloading my crazy lathe and rolling it into the shop. ?It is in and on blocks, but,,, the concrete floor failed and is crumbling away under the lathe. ?What a DRAG! ?now I have to support the lathe and remove the concrete floor and underpin the the whole area with piles. ?I am not having fun anymore!Hankshould have started a stamp collection instead of building a sub ;-( -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 19 18:10:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 00:10:58 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed In-Reply-To: <1993208487.806913.1500501274853@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1993208487.806913.1500501274853.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1993208487.806913.1500501274853@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <05cf01d300db$e65fc430$b31f4c90$@nl> That reminds me of lifting Euronaut with hydraulic jacks. The sub did not go up, the concrete got down.. Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: woensdag 19 juli 2017 23:55 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed Hi All, I spent three days unloading my crazy lathe and rolling it into the shop. It is in and on blocks, but,,, the concrete floor failed and is crumbling away under the lathe. What a DRAG! now I have to support the lathe and remove the concrete floor and underpin the the whole area with piles. I am not having fun anymore! Hank should have started a stamp collection instead of building a sub ;-( -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 19 18:39:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:39:59 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <1500493718361.5518087.7dc53dd429f05b2c865f9b6711d247d0dfd8464b@spica.telekom.de> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> <875693f9-8fc9-112c-d89d-8a67e7faa61d@psubs.org> <8FFC7CC9-2D66-443F-8DE6-3A4F51E480F2@yahoo.com> <2297d5d4-748f-0919-1bc9-b6c72f5a048f@psubs.org> <2BF2A15C-C91D-45BC-8C7F-75C8288FA735@yahoo.com> <0c1001d2ff67$bf4cc700$3de65500$@gmail.com> <1500493718361.5518087.7dc53dd429f05b2c865f9b6711d247d0dfd8464b@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <016601d300df$f67e84b0$e37b8e10$@gmail.com> Hi Carsten, Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? Best regards, Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Hugh, First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. I will give you an example: DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. Give me a call if you find one. Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Jon, I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required :- Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. Witnessed test dive. (Carsten can correct all this) Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. Just my pennies worth. Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Jon, they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > > Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding > commercial fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > > As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, > it would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > > Jon > > > >> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >> written on it? I doubt it. >> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >> limiting any rules for personal submersibles. >> Regards Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 19 18:52:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 22:52:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed In-Reply-To: <1993208487.806913.1500501274853@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1993208487.806913.1500501274853.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1993208487.806913.1500501274853@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1663556492.822894.1500504758584@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,sorry to hear about that, what a major pain!I just found this excerpt from an email I sent you!"Yikes, that is heavy. Hope the concrete is thick enough."?:)Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 9:56 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed Hi All,I spent three days unloading my crazy lathe and rolling it into the shop. ?It is in and on blocks, but,,, the concrete floor failed and is crumbling away under the lathe. ?What a DRAG! ?now I have to support the lathe and remove the concrete floor and underpin the the whole area with piles. ?I am not having fun anymore!Hankshould have started a stamp collection instead of building a sub ;-(_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 19 19:02:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 23:02:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed In-Reply-To: <1663556492.822894.1500504758584@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1993208487.806913.1500501274853.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1993208487.806913.1500501274853@mail.yahoo.com> <1663556492.822894.1500504758584@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <472636573.826399.1500505325498@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Yes it was a concern from the start. ?The concrete is good in the shop itself but not well supported at the perimeter. ?In Canada we need a frost wall at the perimeter of a building. ?That means you have to dig a 4 foot deep trench all the way around, install a wall then back fill. ?So there is a 1 to 2 foot section of concrete that is sitting on fill. ?That means over time the fill will settle and the concrete can be suspended or just not well supported. ?That is the area that broke away ;-( ?It is easily fixed, I have to slide a 40 foot beam under the lathe to support it, then excavate to expose the frost wall to footing depth. ?Then remove the concrete under the lathe and pour concrete piles under the lathe and pour a new floor to replace the broken parts already removed. ?I just have to suck it up and get on with it.Hank On Wednesday, July 19, 2017, 6:52:56 PM EDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,sorry to hear about that, what a major pain!I just found this excerpt from an email I sent you!"Yikes, that is heavy. Hope the concrete is thick enough."?:)Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 9:56 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed Hi All,I spent three days unloading my crazy lathe and rolling it into the shop. ?It is in and on blocks, but,,, the concrete floor failed and is crumbling away under the lathe. ?What a DRAG! ?now I have to support the lathe and remove the concrete floor and underpin the the whole area with piles. ?I am not having fun anymore!Hankshould have started a stamp collection instead of building a sub ;-(_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 19 19:31:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 23:31:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed In-Reply-To: <472636573.826399.1500505325498@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1993208487.806913.1500501274853.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1993208487.806913.1500501274853@mail.yahoo.com> <1663556492.822894.1500504758584@mail.yahoo.com> <472636573.826399.1500505325498@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1602037339.849309.1500507113701@mail.yahoo.com> Wow that's extreme!Can you put an extension on your shed with a new pad of concrete?If you decide to go with the stamp collecting option I can sendyou some N.Z. stamps!Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed Alan,Yes it was a concern from the start. ?The concrete is good in the shop itself but not well supported at the perimeter. ?In Canada we need a frost wall at the perimeter of a building. ?That means you have to dig a 4 foot deep trench all the way around, install a wall then back fill. ?So there is a 1 to 2 foot section of concrete that is sitting on fill. ?That means over time the fill will settle and the concrete can be suspended or just not well supported. ?That is the area that broke away ;-( ?It is easily fixed, I have to slide a 40 foot beam under the lathe to support it, then excavate to expose the frost wall to footing depth. ?Then remove the concrete under the lathe and pour concrete piles under the lathe and pour a new floor to replace the broken parts already removed. ?I just have to suck it up and get on with it.Hank On Wednesday, July 19, 2017, 6:52:56 PM EDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,sorry to hear about that, what a major pain!I just found this excerpt from an email I sent you!"Yikes, that is heavy. Hope the concrete is thick enough."?:)Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 9:56 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed Hi All,I spent three days unloading my crazy lathe and rolling it into the shop. ?It is in and on blocks, but,,, the concrete floor failed and is crumbling away under the lathe. ?What a DRAG! ?now I have to support the lathe and remove the concrete floor and underpin the the whole area with piles. ?I am not having fun anymore!Hankshould have started a stamp collection instead of building a sub ;-(_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 19 20:01:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 00:01:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed References: <1386104874.1025075.1500508891777.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386104874.1025075.1500508891777@mail.yahoo.com> You might see some Canadian concrete piles popping up NZ. -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 7/19/17, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Wednesday, July 19, 2017, 6:31 PM Wow that's extreme!Can you put an extension on your shed with a new pad of concrete?If you decide to go with the stamp collecting option I can sendyou some N.Z. stamps!Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed Alan,Yes it was a concern from the start. ?The concrete is good in the shop itself but not well supported at the perimeter. ?In Canada we need a frost wall at the perimeter of a building. ?That means you have to dig a 4 foot deep trench all the way around, install a wall then back fill. ?So there is a 1 to 2 foot section of concrete that is sitting on fill. ?That means over time the fill will settle and the concrete can be suspended or just not well supported. ?That is the area that broke away ;-( ?It is easily fixed, I have to slide a 40 foot beam under the lathe to support it, then excavate to expose the frost wall to footing depth. ?Then remove the concrete under the lathe and pour concrete piles under the lathe and pour a new floor to replace the broken parts already removed. ?I just have to suck it up and get on with it.Hank On Wednesday, July 19, 2017, 6:52:56 PM EDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,sorry to hear about that, what a major pain!I just found this excerpt from an email I sent you!"Yikes, that is heavy. Hope the concrete is thick enough."?:)Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 9:56 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed Hi All,I spent three days unloading my crazy lathe and rolling it into the shop. ?It is in and on blocks, but,,, the concrete floor failed and is crumbling away under the lathe. ?What a DRAG! ?now I have to support the lathe and remove the concrete floor and underpin the the whole area with piles. ?I am not having fun anymore!Hankshould have started a stamp collection instead of building a sub ;-(_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 19 22:44:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 19:44:29 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lathe installed Message-ID: <20170719194429.3F7E3C80@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 00:34:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 00:34:43 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: <34D76854-66EC-4FD1-A63F-B299DAAF1317@yahoo.com> References: <34D76854-66EC-4FD1-A63F-B299DAAF1317@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, Thanks for reaching out and forwarding us Will's response. There's a lot here to consider and the current applicable US law is complicated requiring careful reading and interpretation, but I have some initial thoughts. I also want to be careful not to suggest that the Rev 1.0 Operating Categories chart forwarded to us are anything more than an initial "stake in the ground", however it does show us where the current thought process is leading and also is all we have to digest and consider at this time. First, let me address some contradictions that exist between the email and the MTS category chart. Quote...there is no need to change much in the Psubs community. Quote...the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want Unfortunately the MTS chart does not preserve our rights at all, and will remove our freedom to do some of what we want. For example, under current US law all K-boat type submarines are able to work commercially as a Subchapter-C UNINSPECTED vessel. So if a boat owner wants to give you $100 to find something they dropped overboard, or you work a deal with a harbor master to inspect boat mooring footings, or some town administration wants to hire you to take photos of mussel invasion at the local pond, you can do that legally. The suggested change by MTS takes that opportunity away completely. Why? What reason is there for taking away the opportunity to make money with your private vessel? Quote...recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as no money changes hand. This is an oversimplification of current law. As a Subchapter-C UNINSPECTED vessel, all kinds of money can change hands. True, we can't take passengers for hire, but we can certainly be hired by someone that wants us to perform a task. And why not. From a functional perspective, shall we believe there is some difference between spending time 30 feet underwater watching fish swim by as a recreational "past time" and spending time 30 feet underwater filming the bottom for an underwater survey that's gong to fetch us a fee? The changes suggested by MTS take this opportunity away completely. Quote...The moment there is a single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger for Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine. I'm not sure Will meant this the way he wrote it. Whether an airplane, train, automobile, commercial submarine, research submarine, tourist submarine, or private submarine, society has good reason to ensure that vessels which carry passengers for hire meet strict standards. The issue I see here is that some of the requirements for vessels that carry passengers for hire are simply not realistic for small submarines. For example, 46 CFR 180.70(a)(1) would require a K-boat to carry a 20 inch life buoy. Perhaps this is what Will meant to allude to, and if so it is a much deeper topic than what the MTS chart provides for. It is not clear to me what Will means when he speaks of the need for companies to be able to operate without regulations if they are classed, presumably by an industry accepted classing entity such as ABS, GL, etc. The USCG regulations appear to be primarily operational (life preservers, flares, etc) whereas vessel certification does not address these issues. One point I absolutely disagree with is the statement that there is a need for a separate category for non-classed submarines built by commercial entities because "this is NOT a PSUB anymore". As I stated in a previous email, from a regulatory perspective there is absolutely no recordable difference between a non-classed submarine fabricated commercially in a multi-million dollar facility and a non-classed submarine fabricated in a two stall garage by an amateur. This is the beauty of certification in that it not only identifies vessels which have been recorded as meeting specific standards, it also equalizes all vessels that have not been recorded as meeting those standards. This must be so or else certification is rendered meaningless. By what standards would we assess that a non-classed commercially built submarine is somehow better than an non-classed amateur built submarine? Let us suppose we do a blind test...we will take a non-classed commercially built submarine and a non-classed amateur built submarine and sit them in a parking lot. We will invite an ABS inspector to that parking lot, point to the two submarines and say "Here are two non-classed submarines. You are an ABS inspector, please point out the better built, safer submarine." If such inspector cannot, or will not do so, there is no difference between those submarines from a regulatory perspective. Now, as per the MTS chart itself there are a couple of things that stand out. A separate category for tourist submarines is going to prove difficult I think. There is currently no definition for a "tourist" in the law and I think defining one will be problematic. A tourist is probably always a passenger for hire, but is a passenger for hire always a tourist? And if a tourist is differentiated from a passenger for hire, under what rules does a submarine operate if they have on board both a tourist and a passenger for hire? I think the justification for separating out tourist submarines based upon the idea that having just one passenger for hire forces a small vessel to operate under the rules of an Atlantis submarine is somewhat weak. A better approach would be to exempt certain sized submarines from certain equipment required under passenger carrying rules based upon the size of the vessel. The differentiation between Commercial, Private, and home-built seems unnecessary. What is the difference between "Private" and "Home-built" submarines? Here again, this seems to be an attempt to perceptually diminish the integrity of a home-built submarine. I counter that such an assumption is arbitrary between unclassed vessels. Furthermore, why should unclassed submarines not be able to perform commercial work. Classing has no bearing upon whether a vessel is capable of performing a certain task for compensation. That determination should be left to the parties involved. Is it not obvious to anyone else that these MTS suggested changes ensure that only those entities which have the means to class a vessel will have the supply of vessels that are authorized to do commercial work? Am I the only one that sees a conflict of interest in such rules being proposed by an organization that is primarily made up of, and caters to, commercial entities that have the means to produce classed submarines? Jon On 7/18/2017 5:52 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi all, > I recently emailed Will Kohnen from the position of a foreigner concerned > that any submersible regulations that his organization draughted would > eventually be adopted by my Country. > I also mentioned lack of consultation with Psubs. Below is his reply. > > I am extremely sensitive to the Psubs issues and there is no need to > change > much in the Psubs community. It is rather everybody else that needs > attention. There are many Psubs members that participate in the > dialogue and > also talk with Jon. I would encourage Psubs to come and participate > and you > may find life is a happy place. I don't know what else to say. > > The US Coast Guard current regulations are reasonably clear that any > self-built, recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as > no money changes hand. This works for Psubs, no problem, and there is no > reason to change that. There is the slight footnote in the regulations > that > notwithstanding, the Captains of the port can ignore the rules and > decide to > allow or deny operations as they see fit. This can lead to a lot of > confusion and inconsistency. Again, the problem is not with Psubs > (although > the tenure is tenuous), but with the rest of the industry that is > trying to > make a viable economic development in the field. The moment there is a > single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger for > Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine. That leaves an > awfully > large gap between Psubs and Atlantis and to suggest that the entire > industry > has to position itself on one side or the other is a bit lacking in > granularity. The industry has moved and evolved since 1993. > > So, No - the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want, and > it may > even be helpful for the world at large that this freedom be better defined > so as to secure this right. In the US, since the US Coast guard has come > under Homeland Security, the freedom of Psubs (and everybody else) is one > incident away from serious "Broad-level" regulation, written by folks in > govt that really don't give a hoot for the sub industry. So it may not > be a > bad idea to be pre-emptive. > > That's all. > What we are discussing in much greater detail is the need to allow > companies > to operate "Without" Coast Guard regulations if the sub is Classed and > carries less that 6 "Occupants", and where we define what an > "Occup0ant" is, > as NOT a passenger. This would open up the economic feasibility for > companies to do submarine work and charge money without the egregious > Coast > Guard certification (which still remains perfectly fine and applicable if > you want to run a 40 passenger sub and carry innocent tourists > underwater). > > There should also be a separate category for companies making subs > that are > made commercially but which are not Classed, and also carry 6 > "occupants" or > less. If you build a number of subs and you sell them commercially, > unclassed, this is NOT a Psub anymore, or at least there needs to be a > clear > line. When Oceangate or Deepflight build subs that cannot be classed, for > one reason or another, these are not Psubs. Where do they fit in the > spectrum? Due to the economic impact and higher public profile of such > subs, > it behooves everyone to pay some attention to the proper > "Categorization" of > each group so that they are not all treated with one broad brush. This is > fairly basic industry positioning for the well being of the industry > and the > protection of each group. > > I don't think the Coast Guard in any nation can properly sort that > out, not > in the US, NZ, AUS, Europe or China.... > So that leaves us to think, be pragmatic, invest some time, energy, > goodwill > and work in good faith so we may end up with a regulatory environment that > lets the entire MZUV industry become economically viable, while also > preserving the freedom of the hobbyist. > > I've attached a rough categorization of sub types to include the "Atlantis > Pax" subs (remaining as they are, the "Psubs" as they are today and added, > Commercial Sub, Uninspected Subs and Submarines, which were never attended > to and which may in the future. > > The door is wide open at the conference and I hope Psubs will increase its > participation beyond a handful of individuals. > > There is no big rush but it is worth pushing forward. The govt's > everywhere > would be more than happy to find a template they can adopt and use as a > baseline for their handling of these issues. > > Again, thank you for reaching out and I hope we get to discuss this in > more > detail as we go. > All the best > Will > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 03:01:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 19:01:08 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: References: <34D76854-66EC-4FD1-A63F-B299DAAF1317@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Jon, you should be a politician! With regard to a category for non classed subs that are built commercially; this is an issue encountered in other industries. You can build a boat in your garage & sell it on ebay, but if you build 50 of them then you are categorised as commercial, however the same boat will now need to comply with industry standards. Graeme Hawke is pushing the boundaries with his unclassified subs; his latest dragon submersible has I think 24 hrs life support instead of 3 or 4 days that ABS or GL require! Our current certification regulations may be extreme for shallow diving vessels, but relevant for commercial deep diving vessels. I wouldn't want to be draughting any rules, as on the one hand you don't want an unsafe sub taking an unwitting public down; but what is safe? In other underwater sports such as scuba diving, you can buy equipment that numerous people die using every year (146 World wide 2016). There is the bionic dolphin that could potentially dive under the water at speed & entangle in an obstacle giving you a short period of time to get out if you survived the impact. Also in the mix are ambient subs, wet subs & scooters! Would be pleased for you to get involved with the decision process if you felt inclined! Regards Alan Sent from my iPad > On 20/07/2017, at 4:34 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > Thanks for reaching out and forwarding us Will's response. There's a lot here to consider and the current applicable US law is complicated requiring careful reading and interpretation, but I have some initial thoughts. I also want to be careful not to suggest that the Rev 1.0 Operating Categories chart forwarded to us are anything more than an initial "stake in the ground", however it does show us where the current thought process is leading and also is all we have to digest and consider at this time. First, let me address some contradictions that exist between the email and the MTS category chart. > > Quote...there is no need to change much in the Psubs community. > Quote...the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want > Unfortunately the MTS chart does not preserve our rights at all, and will remove our freedom to do some of what we want. For example, under current US law all K-boat type submarines are able to work commercially as a Subchapter-C UNINSPECTED vessel. So if a boat owner wants to give you $100 to find something they dropped overboard, or you work a deal with a harbor master to inspect boat mooring footings, or some town administration wants to hire you to take photos of mussel invasion at the local pond, you can do that legally. The suggested change by MTS takes that opportunity away completely. Why? What reason is there for taking away the opportunity to make money with your private vessel? > > Quote...recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as no money changes hand. > This is an oversimplification of current law. As a Subchapter-C UNINSPECTED vessel, all kinds of money can change hands. True, we can't take passengers for hire, but we can certainly be hired by someone that wants us to perform a task. And why not. From a functional perspective, shall we believe there is some difference between spending time 30 feet underwater watching fish swim by as a recreational "past time" and spending time 30 feet underwater filming the bottom for an underwater survey that's gong to fetch us a fee? The changes suggested by MTS take this opportunity away completely. > > Quote...The moment there is a single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger for Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine. > I'm not sure Will meant this the way he wrote it. Whether an airplane, train, automobile, commercial submarine, research submarine, tourist submarine, or private submarine, society has good reason to ensure that vessels which carry passengers for hire meet strict standards. The issue I see here is that some of the requirements for vessels that carry passengers for hire are simply not realistic for small submarines. For example, 46 CFR 180.70(a)(1) would require a K-boat to carry a 20 inch life buoy. Perhaps this is what Will meant to allude to, and if so it is a much deeper topic than what the MTS chart provides for. > > It is not clear to me what Will means when he speaks of the need for companies to be able to operate without regulations if they are classed, presumably by an industry accepted classing entity such as ABS, GL, etc. The USCG regulations appear to be primarily operational (life preservers, flares, etc) whereas vessel certification does not address these issues. > > One point I absolutely disagree with is the statement that there is a need for a separate category for non-classed submarines built by commercial entities because "this is NOT a PSUB anymore". As I stated in a previous email, from a regulatory perspective there is absolutely no recordable difference between a non-classed submarine fabricated commercially in a multi-million dollar facility and a non-classed submarine fabricated in a two stall garage by an amateur. This is the beauty of certification in that it not only identifies vessels which have been recorded as meeting specific standards, it also equalizes all vessels that have not been recorded as meeting those standards. This must be so or else certification is rendered meaningless. By what standards would we assess that a non-classed commercially built submarine is somehow better than an non-classed amateur built submarine? Let us suppose we do a blind test...we will take a non-classed commercially built submarine and a non-classed amateur built submarine and sit them in a parking lot. We will invite an ABS inspector to that parking lot, point to the two submarines and say "Here are two non-classed submarines. You are an ABS inspector, please point out the better built, safer submarine." If such inspector cannot, or will not do so, there is no difference between those submarines from a regulatory perspective. > > Now, as per the MTS chart itself there are a couple of things that stand out. > > A separate category for tourist submarines is going to prove difficult I think. There is currently no definition for a "tourist" in the law and I think defining one will be problematic. A tourist is probably always a passenger for hire, but is a passenger for hire always a tourist? And if a tourist is differentiated from a passenger for hire, under what rules does a submarine operate if they have on board both a tourist and a passenger for hire? I think the justification for separating out tourist submarines based upon the idea that having just one passenger for hire forces a small vessel to operate under the rules of an Atlantis submarine is somewhat weak. A better approach would be to exempt certain sized submarines from certain equipment required under passenger carrying rules based upon the size of the vessel. > > The differentiation between Commercial, Private, and home-built seems unnecessary. What is the difference between "Private" and "Home-built" submarines? Here again, this seems to be an attempt to perceptually diminish the integrity of a home-built submarine. I counter that such an assumption is arbitrary between unclassed vessels. Furthermore, why should unclassed submarines not be able to perform commercial work. Classing has no bearing upon whether a vessel is capable of performing a certain task for compensation. That determination should be left to the parties involved. Is it not obvious to anyone else that these MTS suggested changes ensure that only those entities which have the means to class a vessel will have the supply of vessels that are authorized to do commercial work? Am I the only one that sees a conflict of interest in such rules being proposed by an organization that is primarily made up of, and caters to, commercial entities that have the means to produce classed submarines? > > Jon > > > >> On 7/18/2017 5:52 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi all, >> I recently emailed Will Kohnen from the position of a foreigner concerned >> that any submersible regulations that his organization draughted would >> eventually be adopted by my Country. >> I also mentioned lack of consultation with Psubs. Below is his reply. >> >> I am extremely sensitive to the Psubs issues and there is no need to change >> much in the Psubs community. It is rather everybody else that needs >> attention. There are many Psubs members that participate in the dialogue and >> also talk with Jon. I would encourage Psubs to come and participate and you >> may find life is a happy place. I don't know what else to say. >> >> The US Coast Guard current regulations are reasonably clear that any >> self-built, recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as >> no money changes hand. This works for Psubs, no problem, and there is no >> reason to change that. There is the slight footnote in the regulations that >> notwithstanding, the Captains of the port can ignore the rules and decide to >> allow or deny operations as they see fit. This can lead to a lot of >> confusion and inconsistency. Again, the problem is not with Psubs (although >> the tenure is tenuous), but with the rest of the industry that is trying to >> make a viable economic development in the field. The moment there is a >> single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger for >> Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine. That leaves an awfully >> large gap between Psubs and Atlantis and to suggest that the entire industry >> has to position itself on one side or the other is a bit lacking in >> granularity. The industry has moved and evolved since 1993. >> >> So, No - the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want, and it may >> even be helpful for the world at large that this freedom be better defined >> so as to secure this right. In the US, since the US Coast guard has come >> under Homeland Security, the freedom of Psubs (and everybody else) is one >> incident away from serious "Broad-level" regulation, written by folks in >> govt that really don't give a hoot for the sub industry. So it may not be a >> bad idea to be pre-emptive. >> >> That's all. >> What we are discussing in much greater detail is the need to allow companies >> to operate "Without" Coast Guard regulations if the sub is Classed and >> carries less that 6 "Occupants", and where we define what an "Occup0ant" is, >> as NOT a passenger. This would open up the economic feasibility for >> companies to do submarine work and charge money without the egregious Coast >> Guard certification (which still remains perfectly fine and applicable if >> you want to run a 40 passenger sub and carry innocent tourists underwater). >> >> There should also be a separate category for companies making subs that are >> made commercially but which are not Classed, and also carry 6 "occupants" or >> less. If you build a number of subs and you sell them commercially, >> unclassed, this is NOT a Psub anymore, or at least there needs to be a clear >> line. When Oceangate or Deepflight build subs that cannot be classed, for >> one reason or another, these are not Psubs. Where do they fit in the >> spectrum? Due to the economic impact and higher public profile of such subs, >> it behooves everyone to pay some attention to the proper "Categorization" of >> each group so that they are not all treated with one broad brush. This is >> fairly basic industry positioning for the well being of the industry and the >> protection of each group. >> >> I don't think the Coast Guard in any nation can properly sort that out, not >> in the US, NZ, AUS, Europe or China.... >> So that leaves us to think, be pragmatic, invest some time, energy, goodwill >> and work in good faith so we may end up with a regulatory environment that >> lets the entire MZUV industry become economically viable, while also >> preserving the freedom of the hobbyist. >> >> I've attached a rough categorization of sub types to include the "Atlantis >> Pax" subs (remaining as they are, the "Psubs" as they are today and added, >> Commercial Sub, Uninspected Subs and Submarines, which were never attended >> to and which may in the future. >> >> The door is wide open at the conference and I hope Psubs will increase its >> participation beyond a handful of individuals. >> >> There is no big rush but it is worth pushing forward. The govt's everywhere >> would be more than happy to find a template they can adopt and use as a >> baseline for their handling of these issues. >> >> Again, thank you for reaching out and I hope we get to discuss this in more >> detail as we go. >> All the best >> Will >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 09:08:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:08:20 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Everyone keeps thinking in terms of 1atm subs, but I've never seen any classification rules regarding ambients. How would they fit into the proposed regulatory scheme? They let untrained tourists use those bubble helmet wet subs. That would certainly qualify as commercial. Where does one draw the line between a scuba scooter and a wet sub? More importantly, does your average 19yo Coast Guard auxiliary-man know or care about the nuances separating a 1 ATM, dry ambient, partial dry ambient, and wet sub? -River Dolfi rdolfi7 at gmail.com 412-997-2526 On Jul 20, 2017 3:03 AM, "via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Submersible Rules (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 19:01:08 +1200 From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks Jon, you should be a politician! With regard to a category for non classed subs that are built commercially; this is an issue encountered in other industries. You can build a boat in your garage & sell it on ebay, but if you build 50 of them then you are categorised as commercial, however the same boat will now need to comply with industry standards. Graeme Hawke is pushing the boundaries with his unclassified subs; his latest dragon submersible has I think 24 hrs life support instead of 3 or 4 days that ABS or GL require! Our current certification regulations may be extreme for shallow diving vessels, but relevant for commercial deep diving vessels. I wouldn't want to be draughting any rules, as on the one hand you don't want an unsafe sub taking an unwitting public down; but what is safe? In other underwater sports such as scuba diving, you can buy equipment that numerous people die using every year (146 World wide 2016). There is the bionic dolphin that could potentially dive under the water at speed & entangle in an obstacle giving you a short period of time to get out if you survived the impact. Also in the mix are ambient subs, wet subs & scooters! Would be pleased for you to get involved with the decision process if you felt inclined! Regards Alan Sent from my iPad > On 20/07/2017, at 4:34 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > > Thanks for reaching out and forwarding us Will's response. There's a lot here to consider and the current applicable US law is complicated requiring careful reading and interpretation, but I have some initial thoughts. I also want to be careful not to suggest that the Rev 1.0 Operating Categories chart forwarded to us are anything more than an initial "stake in the ground", however it does show us where the current thought process is leading and also is all we have to digest and consider at this time. First, let me address some contradictions that exist between the email and the MTS category chart. > > Quote...there is no need to change much in the Psubs community. > Quote...the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want > Unfortunately the MTS chart does not preserve our rights at all, and will remove our freedom to do some of what we want. For example, under current US law all K-boat type submarines are able to work commercially as a Subchapter-C UNINSPECTED vessel. So if a boat owner wants to give you $100 to find something they dropped overboard, or you work a deal with a harbor master to inspect boat mooring footings, or some town administration wants to hire you to take photos of mussel invasion at the local pond, you can do that legally. The suggested change by MTS takes that opportunity away completely. Why? What reason is there for taking away the opportunity to make money with your private vessel? > > Quote...recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as no money changes hand. > This is an oversimplification of current law. As a Subchapter-C UNINSPECTED vessel, all kinds of money can change hands. True, we can't take passengers for hire, but we can certainly be hired by someone that wants us to perform a task. And why not. From a functional perspective, shall we believe there is some difference between spending time 30 feet underwater watching fish swim by as a recreational "past time" and spending time 30 feet underwater filming the bottom for an underwater survey that's gong to fetch us a fee? The changes suggested by MTS take this opportunity away completely. > > Quote...The moment there is a single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger for Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine. > I'm not sure Will meant this the way he wrote it. Whether an airplane, train, automobile, commercial submarine, research submarine, tourist submarine, or private submarine, society has good reason to ensure that vessels which carry passengers for hire meet strict standards. The issue I see here is that some of the requirements for vessels that carry passengers for hire are simply not realistic for small submarines. For example, 46 CFR 180.70(a)(1) would require a K-boat to carry a 20 inch life buoy. Perhaps this is what Will meant to allude to, and if so it is a much deeper topic than what the MTS chart provides for. > > It is not clear to me what Will means when he speaks of the need for companies to be able to operate without regulations if they are classed, presumably by an industry accepted classing entity such as ABS, GL, etc. The USCG regulations appear to be primarily operational (life preservers, flares, etc) whereas vessel certification does not address these issues. > > One point I absolutely disagree with is the statement that there is a need for a separate category for non-classed submarines built by commercial entities because "this is NOT a PSUB anymore". As I stated in a previous email, from a regulatory perspective there is absolutely no recordable difference between a non-classed submarine fabricated commercially in a multi-million dollar facility and a non-classed submarine fabricated in a two stall garage by an amateur. This is the beauty of certification in that it not only identifies vessels which have been recorded as meeting specific standards, it also equalizes all vessels that have not been recorded as meeting those standards. This must be so or else certification is rendered meaningless. By what standards would we assess that a non-classed commercially built submarine is somehow better than an non-classed amateur built submarine? Let us suppose we do a blind test...we will take a non-classed commercially built submari! ne and a non-classed amateur built submarine and sit them in a parking lot. We will invite an ABS inspector to that parking lot, point to the two submarines and say "Here are two non-classed submarines. You are an ABS inspector, please point out the better built, safer submarine." If such inspector cannot, or will not do so, there is no difference between those submarines from a regulatory perspective. > > Now, as per the MTS chart itself there are a couple of things that stand out. > > A separate category for tourist submarines is going to prove difficult I think. There is currently no definition for a "tourist" in the law and I think defining one will be problematic. A tourist is probably always a passenger for hire, but is a passenger for hire always a tourist? And if a tourist is differentiated from a passenger for hire, under what rules does a submarine operate if they have on board both a tourist and a passenger for hire? I think the justification for separating out tourist submarines based upon the idea that having just one passenger for hire forces a small vessel to operate under the rules of an Atlantis submarine is somewhat weak. A better approach would be to exempt certain sized submarines from certain equipment required under passenger carrying rules based upon the size of the vessel. > > The differentiation between Commercial, Private, and home-built seems unnecessary. What is the difference between "Private" and "Home-built" submarines? Here again, this seems to be an attempt to perceptually diminish the integrity of a home-built submarine. I counter that such an assumption is arbitrary between unclassed vessels. Furthermore, why should unclassed submarines not be able to perform commercial work. Classing has no bearing upon whether a vessel is capable of performing a certain task for compensation. That determination should be left to the parties involved. Is it not obvious to anyone else that these MTS suggested changes ensure that only those entities which have the means to class a vessel will have the supply of vessels that are authorized to do commercial work? Am I the only one that sees a conflict of interest in such rules being proposed by an organization that is primarily made up of, and caters to, commercial entities that have the means to! produce classed submarines? > > Jon > > > >> On 7/18/2017 5:52 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi all, >> I recently emailed Will Kohnen from the position of a foreigner concerned >> that any submersible regulations that his organization draughted would >> eventually be adopted by my Country. >> I also mentioned lack of consultation with Psubs. Below is his reply. >> >> I am extremely sensitive to the Psubs issues and there is no need to change >> much in the Psubs community. It is rather everybody else that needs >> attention. There are many Psubs members that participate in the dialogue and >> also talk with Jon. I would encourage Psubs to come and participate and you >> may find life is a happy place. I don't know what else to say. >> >> The US Coast Guard current regulations are reasonably clear that any >> self-built, recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as >> no money changes hand. This works for Psubs, no problem, and there is no >> reason to change that. There is the slight footnote in the regulations that >> notwithstanding, the Captains of the port can ignore the rules and decide to >> allow or deny operations as they see fit. This can lead to a lot of >> confusion and inconsistency. Again, the problem is not with Psubs (although >> the tenure is tenuous), but with the rest of the industry that is trying to >> make a viable economic development in the field. The moment there is a >> single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger for >> Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine. That leaves an awfully >> large gap between Psubs and Atlantis and to suggest that the entire industry >> has to position itself on one side or the other is a bit lacking in >> granularity. The industry has moved and evolved since 1993. >> >> So, No - the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want, and it may >> even be helpful for the world at large that this freedom be better defined >> so as to secure this right. In the US, since the US Coast guard has come >> under Homeland Security, the freedom of Psubs (and everybody else) is one >> incident away from serious "Broad-level" regulation, written by folks in >> govt that really don't give a hoot for the sub industry. So it may not be a >> bad idea to be pre-emptive. >> >> That's all. >> What we are discussing in much greater detail is the need to allow companies >> to operate "Without" Coast Guard regulations if the sub is Classed and >> carries less that 6 "Occupants", and where we define what an "Occup0ant" is, >> as NOT a passenger. This would open up the economic feasibility for >> companies to do submarine work and charge money without the egregious Coast >> Guard certification (which still remains perfectly fine and applicable if >> you want to run a 40 passenger sub and carry innocent tourists underwater). >> >> There should also be a separate category for companies making subs that are >> made commercially but which are not Classed, and also carry 6 "occupants" or >> less. If you build a number of subs and you sell them commercially, >> unclassed, this is NOT a Psub anymore, or at least there needs to be a clear >> line. When Oceangate or Deepflight build subs that cannot be classed, for >> one reason or another, these are not Psubs. Where do they fit in the >> spectrum? Due to the economic impact and higher public profile of such subs, >> it behooves everyone to pay some attention to the proper "Categorization" of >> each group so that they are not all treated with one broad brush. This is >> fairly basic industry positioning for the well being of the industry and the >> protection of each group. >> >> I don't think the Coast Guard in any nation can properly sort that out, not >> in the US, NZ, AUS, Europe or China.... >> So that leaves us to think, be pragmatic, invest some time, energy, goodwill >> and work in good faith so we may end up with a regulatory environment that >> lets the entire MZUV industry become economically viable, while also >> preserving the freedom of the hobbyist. >> >> I've attached a rough categorization of sub types to include the "Atlantis >> Pax" subs (remaining as they are, the "Psubs" as they are today and added, >> Commercial Sub, Uninspected Subs and Submarines, which were never attended >> to and which may in the future. >> >> The door is wide open at the conference and I hope Psubs will increase its >> participation beyond a handful of individuals. >> >> There is no big rush but it is worth pushing forward. The govt's everywhere >> would be more than happy to find a template they can adopt and use as a >> baseline for their handling of these issues. >> >> Again, thank you for reaching out and I hope we get to discuss this in more >> detail as we go. >> All the best >> Will >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 102 ****************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 10:00:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:00:31 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: Y3BMdztLfsSDNY3BOdwxJI References: <34D76854-66EC-4FD1-A63F-B299DAAF1317@yahoo.com> Y3BMdztLfsSDNY3BOdwxJI Message-ID: <9bf1d51a-56e7-4b32-94dc-803089be57a5@email.android.com> Further complicating the regulatory question is the fact that the ABS rules, and I presume others, make a distinction between "passenger" submersibles and non "passenger" submersibles, both of which when classed are commercial vessels, so simply defining on the basis of money changing hands would appear disingenuous. Sean On July 19, 2017 10:34:43 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Alan, > >Thanks for reaching out and forwarding us Will's response. There's a >lot >here to consider and the current applicable US law is complicated >requiring careful reading and interpretation, but I have some initial >thoughts. I also want to be careful not to suggest that the Rev 1.0 >Operating Categories chart forwarded to us are anything more than an >initial "stake in the ground", however it does show us where the >current >thought process is leading and also is all we have to digest and >consider at this time. First, let me address some contradictions that >exist between the email and the MTS category chart. > >Quote...there is no need to change much in the Psubs community. >Quote...the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want >Unfortunately the MTS chart does not preserve our rights at all, and >will remove our freedom to do some of what we want. For example, under > >current US law all K-boat type submarines are able to work commercially > >as a Subchapter-C UNINSPECTED vessel. So if a boat owner wants to give >you $100 to find something they dropped overboard, or you work a deal >with a harbor master to inspect boat mooring footings, or some town >administration wants to hire you to take photos of mussel invasion at >the local pond, you can do that legally. The suggested change by MTS >takes that opportunity away completely. Why? What reason is there for > >taking away the opportunity to make money with your private vessel? > >Quote...recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as >no money changes hand. >This is an oversimplification of current law. As a Subchapter-C >UNINSPECTED vessel, all kinds of money can change hands. True, we >can't >take passengers for hire, but we can certainly be hired by someone that > >wants us to perform a task. And why not. From a functional >perspective, shall we believe there is some difference between spending > >time 30 feet underwater watching fish swim by as a recreational "past >time" and spending time 30 feet underwater filming the bottom for an >underwater survey that's gong to fetch us a fee? The changes suggested > >by MTS take this opportunity away completely. > >Quote...The moment there is a single person in the sub that pays $1, it > >is considered a "Passenger for Hire" and you are treated like an >Atlantis submarine. >I'm not sure Will meant this the way he wrote it. Whether an airplane, > >train, automobile, commercial submarine, research submarine, tourist >submarine, or private submarine, society has good reason to ensure that > >vessels which carry passengers for hire meet strict standards. The >issue I see here is that some of the requirements for vessels that >carry >passengers for hire are simply not realistic for small submarines. For > >example, 46 CFR 180.70(a)(1) would require a K-boat to carry a 20 inch >life buoy. Perhaps this is what Will meant to allude to, and if so it >is a much deeper topic than what the MTS chart provides for. > >It is not clear to me what Will means when he speaks of the need for >companies to be able to operate without regulations if they are >classed, >presumably by an industry accepted classing entity such as ABS, GL, >etc. The USCG regulations appear to be primarily operational (life >preservers, flares, etc) whereas vessel certification does not address >these issues. > >One point I absolutely disagree with is the statement that there is a >need for a separate category for non-classed submarines built by >commercial entities because "this is NOT a PSUB anymore". As I stated >in a previous email, from a regulatory perspective there is absolutely >no recordable difference between a non-classed submarine fabricated >commercially in a multi-million dollar facility and a non-classed >submarine fabricated in a two stall garage by an amateur. This is the >beauty of certification in that it not only identifies vessels which >have been recorded as meeting specific standards, it also equalizes all > >vessels that have not been recorded as meeting those standards. This >must be so or else certification is rendered meaningless. By what >standards would we assess that a non-classed commercially built >submarine is somehow better than an non-classed amateur built >submarine? Let us suppose we do a blind test...we will take a >non-classed commercially built submarine and a non-classed amateur >built >submarine and sit them in a parking lot. We will invite an ABS >inspector to that parking lot, point to the two submarines and say >"Here >are two non-classed submarines. You are an ABS inspector, please point > >out the better built, safer submarine." If such inspector cannot, or >will not do so, there is no difference between those submarines from a >regulatory perspective. > >Now, as per the MTS chart itself there are a couple of things that >stand >out. > >A separate category for tourist submarines is going to prove difficult >I >think. There is currently no definition for a "tourist" in the law and > >I think defining one will be problematic. A tourist is probably always > >a passenger for hire, but is a passenger for hire always a tourist? >And >if a tourist is differentiated from a passenger for hire, under what >rules does a submarine operate if they have on board both a tourist and > >a passenger for hire? I think the justification for separating out >tourist submarines based upon the idea that having just one passenger >for hire forces a small vessel to operate under the rules of an >Atlantis >submarine is somewhat weak. A better approach would be to exempt >certain sized submarines from certain equipment required under >passenger >carrying rules based upon the size of the vessel. > >The differentiation between Commercial, Private, and home-built seems >unnecessary. What is the difference between "Private" and "Home-built" > >submarines? Here again, this seems to be an attempt to perceptually >diminish the integrity of a home-built submarine. I counter that such >an assumption is arbitrary between unclassed vessels. Furthermore, why > >should unclassed submarines not be able to perform commercial work. >Classing has no bearing upon whether a vessel is capable of performing >a >certain task for compensation. That determination should be left to >the >parties involved. Is it not obvious to anyone else that these MTS >suggested changes ensure that only those entities which have the means >to class a vessel will have the supply of vessels that are authorized >to >do commercial work? Am I the only one that sees a conflict of interest > >in such rules being proposed by an organization that is primarily made >up of, and caters to, commercial entities that have the means to >produce >classed submarines? > >Jon > > > >On 7/18/2017 5:52 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi all, >> I recently emailed Will Kohnen from the position of a foreigner >concerned >> that any submersible regulations that his organization draughted >would >> eventually be adopted by my Country. >> I also mentioned lack of consultation with Psubs. Below is his reply. >> >> I am extremely sensitive to the Psubs issues and there is no need to >> change >> much in the Psubs community. It is rather everybody else that needs >> attention. There are many Psubs members that participate in the >> dialogue and >> also talk with Jon. I would encourage Psubs to come and participate >> and you >> may find life is a happy place. I don't know what else to say. >> >> The US Coast Guard current regulations are reasonably clear that any >> self-built, recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as >long as >> no money changes hand. This works for Psubs, no problem, and there is >no >> reason to change that. There is the slight footnote in the >regulations >> that >> notwithstanding, the Captains of the port can ignore the rules and >> decide to >> allow or deny operations as they see fit. This can lead to a lot of >> confusion and inconsistency. Again, the problem is not with Psubs >> (although >> the tenure is tenuous), but with the rest of the industry that is >> trying to >> make a viable economic development in the field. The moment there is >a >> single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger >for >> Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine. That leaves an >> awfully >> large gap between Psubs and Atlantis and to suggest that the entire >> industry >> has to position itself on one side or the other is a bit lacking in >> granularity. The industry has moved and evolved since 1993. >> >> So, No - the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want, and >> it may >> even be helpful for the world at large that this freedom be better >defined >> so as to secure this right. In the US, since the US Coast guard has >come >> under Homeland Security, the freedom of Psubs (and everybody else) is >one >> incident away from serious "Broad-level" regulation, written by folks >in >> govt that really don't give a hoot for the sub industry. So it may >not >> be a >> bad idea to be pre-emptive. >> >> That's all. >> What we are discussing in much greater detail is the need to allow >> companies >> to operate "Without" Coast Guard regulations if the sub is Classed >and >> carries less that 6 "Occupants", and where we define what an >> "Occup0ant" is, >> as NOT a passenger. This would open up the economic feasibility for >> companies to do submarine work and charge money without the egregious > >> Coast >> Guard certification (which still remains perfectly fine and >applicable if >> you want to run a 40 passenger sub and carry innocent tourists >> underwater). >> >> There should also be a separate category for companies making subs >> that are >> made commercially but which are not Classed, and also carry 6 >> "occupants" or >> less. If you build a number of subs and you sell them commercially, >> unclassed, this is NOT a Psub anymore, or at least there needs to be >a >> clear >> line. When Oceangate or Deepflight build subs that cannot be classed, >for >> one reason or another, these are not Psubs. Where do they fit in the >> spectrum? Due to the economic impact and higher public profile of >such >> subs, >> it behooves everyone to pay some attention to the proper >> "Categorization" of >> each group so that they are not all treated with one broad brush. >This is >> fairly basic industry positioning for the well being of the industry >> and the >> protection of each group. >> >> I don't think the Coast Guard in any nation can properly sort that >> out, not >> in the US, NZ, AUS, Europe or China.... >> So that leaves us to think, be pragmatic, invest some time, energy, >> goodwill >> and work in good faith so we may end up with a regulatory environment >that >> lets the entire MZUV industry become economically viable, while also >> preserving the freedom of the hobbyist. >> >> I've attached a rough categorization of sub types to include the >"Atlantis >> Pax" subs (remaining as they are, the "Psubs" as they are today and >added, >> Commercial Sub, Uninspected Subs and Submarines, which were never >attended >> to and which may in the future. >> >> The door is wide open at the conference and I hope Psubs will >increase its >> participation beyond a handful of individuals. >> >> There is no big rush but it is worth pushing forward. The govt's >> everywhere >> would be more than happy to find a template they can adopt and use as >a >> baseline for their handling of these issues. >> >> Again, thank you for reaching out and I hope we get to discuss this >in >> more >> detail as we go. >> All the best >> Will >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 11:09:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:09:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: River, Ambients would be covered under the same rules as 1-ATM currently. 46CFR, II, Part A, Chapter 21, 37(a) ?submersible vessel? means a vessel that is capable of operating below the surface of the water. Jon On 7/20/2017 9:08 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Everyone keeps thinking in terms of 1atm subs, but I've never seen any > classification rules regarding ambients. How would they fit into the > proposed regulatory scheme? They let untrained tourists use those > bubble helmet wet subs. That would certainly qualify as commercial. > Where does one draw the line between a scuba scooter and a wet sub? > More importantly, does your average 19yo Coast Guard auxiliary-man > know or care about the nuances separating a 1 ATM, dry ambient, > partial dry ambient, and wet sub? > -River Dolfi > rdolfi7 at gmail.com > 412-997-2526 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 12:11:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 18:11:26 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1500567086577.5324317.90a04ef11ab02bc8ed764dccdf342af36071892a@spica.telekom.de> Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright will kill all occupants instandly. Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters for untrained non diver tourist. We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Datum: 2017-07-20T17:12:33+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" River, Ambients would be covered under the same rules as 1-ATM currently. 46CFR, II, Part A, Chapter 21, 37(a) ?submersible vessel? means a vessel that is capable of operating below the surface of the water. Jon On 7/20/2017 9:08 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Everyone keeps thinking in terms of 1atm subs, but I've never seen any classification rules regarding ambients. How would they fit into the proposed regulatory scheme? They let untrained tourists use those bubble helmet wet subs. That would certainly qualify as commercial. Where does one draw the line between a scuba scooter and a wet sub? More importantly, does your average 19yo Coast Guard auxiliary-man know or care about the nuances separating a 1 ATM, dry ambient, partial dry ambient, and wet sub? -River Dolfi rdolfi7 at gmail.com 412-997-2526 ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 12:12:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 18:12:32 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1500567152603.4950273.7652b292f7a02c1b10593184b7ec4dfbe5e6031b@spica.telekom.de> Would be intressting to learn if they ever has an tourist accident. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Datum: 2017-07-20T17:12:33+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" River, Ambients would be covered under the same rules as 1-ATM currently. 46CFR, II, Part A, Chapter 21, 37(a) ?submersible vessel? means a vessel that is capable of operating below the surface of the water. Jon On 7/20/2017 9:08 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Everyone keeps thinking in terms of 1atm subs, but I've never seen any classification rules regarding ambients. How would they fit into the proposed regulatory scheme? They let untrained tourists use those bubble helmet wet subs. That would certainly qualify as commercial. Where does one draw the line between a scuba scooter and a wet sub? More importantly, does your average 19yo Coast Guard auxiliary-man know or care about the nuances separating a 1 ATM, dry ambient, partial dry ambient, and wet sub? -River Dolfi rdolfi7 at gmail.com 412-997-2526 ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 12:18:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:18:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] similar rules in hot air balloons In-Reply-To: References: <34D76854-66EC-4FD1-A63F-B299DAAF1317@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <897958575.1332546.1500567505047@mail.yahoo.com> ?Concerning home built hot air balloons, The FAA decided that they could not carry paying passengers a few years back. Unfortunately, the rules were written to say "no commercial operations". Many balloon owners sell advertising space on their balloons. Some FAA examiners have used the wording of rules to fine people for selling advertising space when the original intention was sold as being needed for passenger safety.? None of this is good for PSUBS. Greg From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Alan, Thanks for reaching out and forwarding us Will's response.? There's a lot here to consider and the current applicable US law is complicated requiring careful reading and interpretation, but I have some initial thoughts.? I also want to be careful not to suggest that the Rev 1.0 Operating Categories chart forwarded to us are anything more than an initial "stake in the ground", however it does show us where the current thought process is leading and also is all we have to digest and consider at this time.? First, let me address some contradictions that exist between the email and the MTS category chart. Quote...there is no need to change much in the Psubs community. Quote...the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want Unfortunately the MTS chart does not preserve our rights at all, and will remove our freedom to do some of what we want.? For example, under current US law all K-boat type submarines are able to work commercially as a Subchapter-C UNINSPECTED vessel.? So if a boat owner wants to give you $100 to find something they dropped overboard, or you work a deal with a harbor master to inspect boat mooring footings, or some town administration wants to hire you to take photos of mussel invasion at the local pond, you can do that legally.? The suggested change by MTS takes that opportunity away completely.? Why?? What reason is there for taking away the opportunity to make money with your private vessel? Quote...recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as no money changes hand. This is an oversimplification of current law.? As a Subchapter-C UNINSPECTED vessel, all kinds of money can change hands.? True, we can't take passengers for hire, but we can certainly be hired by someone that wants us to perform a task.? And why not.? From a functional perspective, shall we believe there is some difference between spending time 30 feet underwater watching fish swim by as a recreational "past time" and spending time 30 feet underwater filming the bottom for an underwater survey that's gong to fetch us a fee?? The changes suggested by MTS take this opportunity away completely. Quote...The moment there is a single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger for Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine. I'm not sure Will meant this the way he wrote it.? Whether an airplane, train, automobile, commercial submarine, research submarine, tourist submarine, or private submarine, society has good reason to ensure that vessels which carry passengers for hire meet strict standards.? The issue I see here is that some of the requirements for vessels that carry passengers for hire are simply not realistic for small submarines.? For example, 46 CFR 180.70(a)(1) would require a K-boat to carry a 20 inch life buoy.? Perhaps this is what Will meant to allude to, and if so it is a much deeper topic than what the MTS chart provides for. It is not clear to me what Will means when he speaks of the need for companies to be able to operate without regulations if they are classed, presumably by an industry accepted classing entity such as ABS, GL, etc.? The USCG regulations appear to be primarily operational (life preservers, flares, etc) whereas vessel certification does not address these issues. One point I absolutely disagree with is the statement that there is a need for a separate category for non-classed submarines built by commercial entities because "this is NOT a PSUB anymore".? As I stated in a previous email, from a regulatory perspective there is absolutely no recordable difference between a non-classed submarine fabricated commercially in a multi-million dollar facility and a non-classed submarine fabricated in a two stall garage by an amateur.? This is the beauty of certification in that it not only identifies vessels which have been recorded as meeting specific standards, it also equalizes all vessels that have not been recorded as meeting those standards.? This must be so or else certification is rendered meaningless.? By what standards would we assess that a non-classed commercially built submarine is somehow better than an non-classed amateur built submarine?? Let us suppose we do a blind test...we will take a non-classed commercially built submarine and a non-classed amateur built submarine and sit them in a parking lot.? We will invite an ABS inspector to that parking lot, point to the two submarines and say "Here are two non-classed submarines.? You are an ABS inspector, please point out the better built, safer submarine."? If such inspector cannot, or will not do so, there is no difference between those submarines from a regulatory perspective. Now, as per the MTS chart itself there are a couple of things that stand out. A separate category for tourist submarines is going to prove difficult I think.? There is currently no definition for a "tourist" in the law and I think defining one will be problematic.? A tourist is probably always a passenger for hire, but is a passenger for hire always a tourist?? And if a tourist is differentiated from a passenger for hire, under what rules does a submarine operate if they have on board both a tourist and a passenger for hire?? I think the justification for separating out tourist submarines based upon the idea that having just one passenger for hire forces a small vessel to operate under the rules of an Atlantis submarine is somewhat weak.? A better approach would be to exempt certain sized submarines from certain equipment required under passenger carrying rules based upon the size of the vessel. The differentiation between Commercial, Private, and home-built seems unnecessary.? What is the difference between "Private" and "Home-built" submarines?? Here again, this seems to be an attempt to perceptually diminish the integrity of a home-built submarine.? I counter that such an assumption is arbitrary between unclassed vessels.? Furthermore, why should unclassed submarines not be able to perform commercial work.? Classing has no bearing upon whether a vessel is capable of performing a certain task for compensation.? That determination should be left to the parties involved.? Is it not obvious to anyone else that these MTS suggested changes ensure that only those entities which have the means to class a vessel will have the supply of vessels that are authorized to do commercial work?? Am I the only one that sees a conflict of interest in such rules being proposed by an organization that is primarily made up of, and caters to, commercial entities that have the means to produce classed submarines? Jon On 7/18/2017 5:52 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I recently emailed Will Kohnen from the position of a foreigner concerned that any submersible regulations that his organization draughted would? eventually be adopted by my Country. I also mentioned lack of consultation with Psubs. Below is his reply. I am extremely sensitive to the Psubs issues and there is no need to change much in the Psubs community. It is rather everybody else that needs attention. There are many Psubs members that participate in the dialogue and also talk with Jon. I would encourage Psubs to come and participate and you may find life is a happy place. I don't know what else to say. The US Coast Guard current regulations are reasonably clear that any self-built, recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as no money changes hand. This works for Psubs, no problem, and there is no reason to change that. There is the slight footnote in the regulations that notwithstanding, the Captains of the port can ignore the rules and decide to allow or deny operations as they see fit. This can lead to a lot of confusion and inconsistency. Again, the problem is not with Psubs (although the tenure is tenuous), but with the rest of the industry that is trying to make a viable economic development in the field. The moment there is a single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger for Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine. That leaves an awfully large gap between Psubs and Atlantis and to suggest that the entire industry has to position itself on one side or the other is a bit lacking in granularity. The industry has moved and evolved since 1993. So, No - the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want, and it may even be helpful for the world at large that this freedom be better defined so as to secure this right. In the US, since the US Coast guard has come under Homeland Security, the freedom of Psubs (and everybody else) is one incident away from serious "Broad-level" regulation, written by folks in govt that really don't give a hoot for the sub industry. So it may not be a bad idea to be pre-emptive. That's all. What we are discussing in much greater detail is the need to allow companies to operate "Without" Coast Guard regulations if the sub is Classed and carries less that 6 "Occupants", and where we define what an "Occup0ant" is, as NOT a passenger. This would open up the economic feasibility for companies to do submarine work and charge money without the egregious Coast Guard certification (which still remains perfectly fine and applicable if you want to run a 40 passenger sub and carry innocent tourists underwater). There should also be a separate category for companies making subs that are made commercially but which are not Classed, and also carry 6 "occupants" or less. If you build a number of subs and you sell them commercially, unclassed, this is NOT a Psub anymore, or at least there needs to be a clear line. When Oceangate or Deepflight build subs that cannot be classed, for one reason or another, these are not Psubs. Where do they fit in the spectrum? Due to the economic impact and higher public profile of such subs, it behooves everyone to pay some attention to the proper "Categorization" of each group so that they are not all treated with one broad brush. This is fairly basic industry positioning for the well being of the industry and the protection of each group. I don't think the Coast Guard in any nation can properly sort that out, not in the US, NZ, AUS, Europe or China.... So that leaves us to think, be pragmatic, invest some time, energy, goodwill and work in good faith so we may end up with a regulatory environment that lets the entire MZUV industry become economically viable, while also preserving the freedom of the hobbyist. I've attached a rough categorization of sub types to include the "Atlantis Pax" subs (remaining as they are, the "Psubs" as they are today and added, Commercial Sub, Uninspected Subs and Submarines, which were never attended to and which may in the future. The door is wide open at the conference and I hope Psubs will increase its participation beyond a handful of individuals. There is no big rush but it is worth pushing forward. The govt's everywhere would be more than happy to find a template they can adopt and use as a baseline for their handling of these issues. Again, thank you for reaching out and I hope we get to discuss this in more detail as we go. All the best Will Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 12:36:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 18:36:33 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <016601d300df$f67e84b0$e37b8e10$@gmail.com> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> <875693f9-8fc9-112c-d89d-8a67e7faa61d@psubs.org> <8FFC7CC9-2D66-443F-8DE6-3A4F51E480F2@yahoo.com> <2297d5d4-748f-0919-1bc9-b6c72f5a048f@psubs.org> <2BF2A15C-C91D-45BC-8C7F-75C8288FA735@yahoo.com> <0c1001d2ff67$bf4cc700$3de65500$@gmail.com> <1500493718361.5518087.7dc53dd429f05b2c865f9b6711d247d0dfd8464b@spica.telekom.de> <016601d300df$f67e84b0$e37b8e10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1500568593629.5657802.74c4abdf3595975e89540b813b37aa0da13792c0@spica.telekom.de> Hugh the rules are not public. But I can answer specific question if you have. The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): 13.00 Bilge pump At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. 14.00 Energy For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. 15.00 Emergency lighting Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. 16.00 Operating instructions The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. and so on.. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Hi Carsten, Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? Best regards, Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Hugh, First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. I will give you an example: DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. Give me a call if you find one. Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Jon, I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required :- Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. Witnessed test dive. (Carsten can correct all this) Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. Just my pennies worth. Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Jon, they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > > Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding > commercial fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > > As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, > it would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > > Jon > > > >> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >> written on it? I doubt it. >> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >> limiting any rules for personal submersibles. >> Regards Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 14:00:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:00:52 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: References: <34D76854-66EC-4FD1-A63F-B299DAAF1317@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0cbfdce6-201f-4a1b-7583-c02be58d5fe2@psubs.org> Alan, I was a politician for 13 years. Happy to be out of that venue. Commercial is a seriously overloaded term confusing without context. I think from a regulatory perspective the origin of a submersible is unimportant. Not that I want to stick a fork in the eye of a dead horse (hey, did you ever think we'd get to use THAT phrase again), but from a regulatory perspective how do you judge an A1 classed submarine from a commercial fabricator against an A1 classed submarine from a home-builder? Existing law appears to center upon current use of the vessel which makes sense because vessels can be re-purposed, re-inspected, and re-certified for a different life than it was originally intended and USCG has regulations to allow this. The simplest example of this would be adding a small motor to a vessel originally manufactured as a row boat. I cannot find a USCG definition for "commercial vessel", only "commercial service". So I think we should think in terms of service, not manufacturer. Jon On 7/20/2017 3:01 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Thanks Jon, > you should be a politician! > With regard to a category for non classed subs that are built > commercially; > this is an issue encountered in other industries. > You can build a boat in your garage & sell it on ebay, but if you build > 50 of them then you are categorised as commercial, however the same > boat will > now need to comply with industry standards. > Graeme Hawke is pushing the boundaries with his unclassified subs; his > latest dragon submersible has I think 24 hrs life support instead of 3 > or 4 days that ABS or GL require! > Our current certification regulations may be extreme for shallow > diving vessels, > but relevant for commercial deep diving vessels. > I wouldn't want to be draughting any rules, as on the one hand you > don't want an > unsafe sub taking an unwitting public down; but what is safe? In other > underwater sports > such as scuba diving, you can buy equipment that numerous people die > using every > year (146 World wide 2016). > There is the bionic dolphin that could potentially dive under the > water at speed & > entangle in an obstacle giving you a short period of time to get out > if you survived > the impact. Also in the mix are ambient subs, wet subs & scooters! > Would be pleased for you to get involved with the decision process if > you felt > inclined! > Regards Alan > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 14:05:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:05:57 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: <1500567086577.5324317.90a04ef11ab02bc8ed764dccdf342af36071892a@spica.telekom.de> References: <1500567086577.5324317.90a04ef11ab02bc8ed764dccdf342af36071892a@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <4e4bbc0f-b88c-4020-c970-7b071e2be58f@psubs.org> I agree. Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher? The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense out of it all. On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. > > Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright > will kill all occupants instandly. > > Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble > scooters for untrained non diver tourist. > > We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. > > Carsten > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 15:31:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 19:31:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: <4e4bbc0f-b88c-4020-c970-7b071e2be58f@psubs.org> References: <1500567086577.5324317.90a04ef11ab02bc8ed764dccdf342af36071892a@spica.telekom.de> <4e4bbc0f-b88c-4020-c970-7b071e2be58f@psubs.org> Message-ID: <153308661.1487936.1500579091565@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Carsten, Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal submarines in the United States? Thanks, Greg C From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules I agree.? Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher?? The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense out of it all. On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. ? Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright will kill all occupants instandly. ? Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters for untrained non diver tourist. We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. ? Carsten ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 16:20:13 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 22:20:13 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: <153308661.1487936.1500579091565@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1500567086577.5324317.90a04ef11ab02bc8ed764dccdf342af36071892a@spica.telekom.de> <4e4bbc0f-b88c-4020-c970-7b071e2be58f@ps ubs.org> <153308661.1487936.1500579091565@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <06a601d30195$98011900$c8034b00$@nl> SL is certification institute for recreational craft that has a submersible chapter (Yes, for Europe only) Maybe it is possible to interest a US sportboat certification institute to do the same with help from Psubs. Just a tought. Emile Ps. I have found a insurer for my sub that accepts SL even for commercial use. They have experience in small business sailing charters. But for European union only, sorry. Can give the details if someone is interested. Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: donderdag 20 juli 2017 21:32 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Hello Carsten, Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal submarines in the United States? Thanks, Greg C _____ From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules I agree. Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher? The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense out of it all. On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright will kill all occupants instandly. Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters for untrained non diver tourist. We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Virus-free. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 17:21:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 21:21:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hy supplier References: <1530020831.908189.1500585690116.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1530020831.908189.1500585690116@mail.yahoo.com> Scott,I found a supplier for 1.5 inch HY-100 ?cut and shipped. ?The company is "American Alloy Steel" ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 18:31:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 17:31:21 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hy supplier Message-ID: <201707202231.v6KMUsAb001480@whoweb.com> Interesting. Did you get a cost? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/20/17 4:21 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hy supplier Scott,I found a supplier for 1.5 inch HY-100 ?cut and shipped. ?The company is "American Alloy Steel" ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 18:40:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 22:40:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hy supplier In-Reply-To: <201707202231.v6KMUsAb001480@whoweb.com> References: <201707202231.v6KMUsAb001480@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <1987512052.1640431.1500590412533@mail.yahoo.com> Scott,Yes, 7,000 per blank 68 in dia 1.5 in thick. ?That includes shipping ?to My house, but the blanks might be shipped strait to Australia for forming. ?Steve has been helping me ?by contacting ?the company that Greg suggested I talk to. ?They are half the price of EE here in Canada.Hank On Thursday, July 20, 2017, 6:31:44 PM EDT, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Interesting. Did you get a cost? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/20/17 4:21 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hy supplier Scott,I found a supplier for 1.5 inch HY-100 ?cut and shipped. ?The company is "American Alloy Steel" ?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 19:09:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 18:09:22 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hy supplier Message-ID: <201707202309.v6KN8t05001702@whoweb.com> No bad. Make sure to get samples for testing. Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/20/17 5:40 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hy supplier Scott,Yes, 7,000 per blank 68 in dia 1.5 in thick. ?That includes shipping ?to My house, but the blanks might be shipped strait to Australia for forming. ?Steve has been helping me ?by contacting ?the company that Greg suggested I talk to. ?They are half the price of EE here in Canada.Hank On Thursday, July 20, 2017, 6:31:44 PM EDT, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Interesting. Did you get a cost? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/20/17 4:21 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hy supplier Scott,I found a supplier for 1.5 inch HY-100 ?cut and shipped. ?The company is "American Alloy Steel" ?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 19:29:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 23:29:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hy supplier In-Reply-To: <201707202309.v6KN8t05001702@whoweb.com> References: <201707202309.v6KN8t05001702@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <787788968.1641836.1500593342501@mail.yahoo.com> Scott,Yes I will get off cuts and after the forming, ASME requires a tensile test also.Hank On Thursday, July 20, 2017, 7:09:41 PM EDT, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: No bad. Make sure to get samples for testing. Thank you,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/20/17 5:40 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hy supplier Scott,Yes, 7,000 per blank 68 in dia 1.5 in thick. ?That includes shipping ?to My house, but the blanks might be shipped strait to Australia for forming. ?Steve has been helping me ?by contacting ?the company that Greg suggested I talk to. ?They are half the price of EE here in Canada.Hank On Thursday, July 20, 2017, 6:31:44 PM EDT, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Interesting. Did you get a cost? Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/20/17 4:21 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hy supplier Scott,I found a supplier for 1.5 inch HY-100 ?cut and shipped. ?The company is "American Alloy Steel" ?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 20 20:04:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <1500568593629.5657802.74c4abdf3595975e89540b813b37aa0da13792c0@spica.telekom.de> References: <201707122012.v6CKC1M4026074@whoweb.com> <876015577.121433.1500006786379@mail.yahoo.com> <299247195.387792.1500046221350@mail.yahoo.com> <25F4C0A8-9171-4258-A69C-E42F277D28F3@yahoo.com> <79A79BBF90D64C55A6B659458F5D4398@PhillPC> <875693f9-8fc9-112c-d89d-8a67e7faa61d@psubs.org> <8FFC7CC9-2D66-443F-8DE6-3A4F51E480F2@yahoo.com> <2297d5d4-748f-0919-1bc9-b6c72f5a048f@psubs.org> <2BF2A15C-C91D-45BC-8C7F-75C8288FA735@yahoo.com> <0c1001d2ff67$bf4cc700$3de65500$@gmail.com> <1500493718361.5518087.7dc53dd429f05b2c865f9b6711d247d0dfd8464b@spica.telekom.de> <016601d300df$f67e84b0$e37b8e10$@gmail.com> <1500568593629.5657802.74c4abdf3595975e89540b813b37aa0da13792c0@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <02dc01d301b4$f84440c0$e8ccc240$@gmail.com> Many thanks Carsten, Makes sense. Regards, Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Hugh the rules are not public. But I can answer specific question if you have. The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): 13.00 Bilge pump At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. 14.00 Energy For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. 15.00 Emergency lighting Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. 16.00 Operating instructions The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. and so on.. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Hi Carsten, Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? Best regards, Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Hugh, First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. I will give you an example: DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. Give me a call if you find one. Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Jon, I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required :- Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. Witnessed test dive. (Carsten can correct all this) Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. Just my pennies worth. Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Jon, they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > > Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding > commercial fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > > As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, > it would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > > Jon > > > >> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >> written on it? I doubt it. >> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >> limiting any rules for personal submersibles. >> Regards Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 21 10:44:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 16:44:11 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules In-Reply-To: <153308661.1487936.1500579091565@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1500567086577.5324317.90a04ef11ab02bc8ed764dccdf342af36071892a@spica.telekom.de> <4e4bbc0f-b88c-4020-c970-7 b071e2be58f@psubs.org> <153308661.1487936.1500579091565@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1500648251719.5629269.913b076d08848b366b57340b842765b636c006a3@spica.telekom.de> Yes thats correct. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal submarines in the United States? Thanks, Greg C ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules I agree. Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher? The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense out of it all. On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright will kill all occupants instandly. Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters for untrained non diver tourist. We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Virus-free. www.avast.com ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 22 11:13:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:13:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUBS in Islamorada FL Message-ID: <000001d302fd$0eb9b7b0$2c2d2710$@telus.net> Are there any more details available for the PSUBS convention plans for Islamorada in August? Not that I can make it to the Florida Keys this time, but I haven't noticed any discussion of late. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 7:44 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Yes thats correct. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal submarines in the United States? Thanks, Greg C _____ From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules I agree. Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher? The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense out of it all. On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright will kill all occupants instandly. Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters for untrained non diver tourist. We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Virus-free. www.avast.com ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 22 12:38:35 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:38:35 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUBS in Islamorada FL In-Reply-To: <000001d302fd$0eb9b7b0$2c2d2710$@telus.net> References: <000001d302fd$0eb9b7b0$2c2d2710$@telus.net> Message-ID: Hi Tim, There's been lots of planning, but offline among those who expressed an interest in attending. To summarize, the dive dates are August 1-3. Snoopy is at the Suhr's but probably will not be diving. Shackleton has an issue that I will be trying to resolve doing canal tests, making use of the calm water, davits, and brain trust on hand. I suspect the issue is that some tanks are flooding faster than others. She takes a nose dive on submerging. I'm not sure the issue will be resolved, but the test location and friends on hand make it worth the trip. R300 will be there and is all systems go, but Cliff's challenge will most likely be habitability given the temperatures, so he'll try to do tows and transits submerged just to keep the cabin conditions manageable. If anyone else is interested in joining us, now would be the perfect time to speak up. Best, Alec On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 11:13 AM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Are there any more details available for the PSUBS convention plans for > Islamorada in August? Not that I can make it to the Florida Keys this > time, but I haven't noticed any discussion of late. > > Tim > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Friday, July 21, 2017 7:44 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > Yes thats correct. > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 > > Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Hello Carsten, > > > > Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal > submarines in the United States? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Greg C > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > > I agree. Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher? > The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater > vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make > some sense out of it all. > > > On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. > > > > Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright > will kill all occupants instandly. > > > > Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters > for untrained non diver tourist. > > We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. > > > > Carsten > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 22 12:39:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:39:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 Message-ID: <4xqi41rgj4tln0w4sip1j8h0.1500741572881@email.android.com> Still on for Tuesday plus 1 week. Check with Doug Suhr. Mike? Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/22/17 11:12 AM (GMT-05:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ?? 1. Re: Submersible Rules ????? (MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) ?? 2. PSUBS in Islamorada FL (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 16:44:11 +0200 (MEST) From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Message-ID: <1500648251719.5629269.913b076d08848b366b57340b842765b636c006a3 at spica.telekom.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Yes thats correct. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal submarines in the United States? Thanks, Greg C ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules I agree.? Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher?? The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense out of it all. On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ??? Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. ???? ??? Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright ??? will kill all occupants instandly. ???? ??? Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble ??? scooters for untrained non diver tourist. ??? We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. ???? ??? Carsten ???? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Virus-free. www.avast.com ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:13:19 -0700 From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUBS in Islamorada FL Message-ID: <000001d302fd$0eb9b7b0$2c2d2710$@telus.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Are there any more details available for the PSUBS convention plans for Islamorada in August?? Not that I can make it to the Florida Keys this time, but I haven't noticed any discussion of late. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 7:44 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Yes thats correct. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal submarines in the United States? Thanks, Greg C ? _____? From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules I agree.? Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher?? The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense out of it all. On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de ? via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright will kill all occupants instandly. Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters for untrained non diver tourist. We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Virus-free.? www.avast.com ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 ****************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 22 12:53:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 16:53:42 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Convention next year Message-ID: Just got back from Lake Jocassee, South Carolina. 400ft in some places. Met the owner of the local dive shop and his support diving Harold was amazing. Easy, flat drive down 95 and then over on 85 to Greenville to stay with friends and then on to the lake the next morning. More later, but google videos of the place. I plan to go back. I think it has potential for a PSubs Convention on the East Coast. Lots of locals who would come out to help. Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 22 13:26:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 13:26:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 110 Message-ID: I'll be there for diving support. Mike Patterson? Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/22/17 12:39 PM (GMT-05:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 110 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ?? 1. Re: PSUBS in Islamorada FL (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) ?? 2. Re: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 ????? (peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:38:35 -0400 From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUBS in Islamorada FL Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Tim, There's been lots of planning, but offline among those who expressed an interest in attending. To summarize, the dive dates are August 1-3. Snoopy is at the Suhr's but probably will not be diving. Shackleton has an issue that I will be trying to resolve doing canal tests, making use of the calm water, davits, and brain trust on hand. I suspect the issue is that some tanks are flooding faster than others. She takes a nose dive on submerging. I'm not sure the issue will be resolved, but the test location and friends on hand make it worth the trip. R300 will be there and is all systems go, but Cliff's challenge will most likely be habitability given the temperatures, so he'll try to do tows and transits submerged just to keep the cabin conditions manageable. If anyone else is interested in joining us, now would be the perfect time to speak up. Best, Alec On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 11:13 AM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Are there any more details available for the PSUBS convention plans for > Islamorada in August?? Not that I can make it to the Florida Keys this > time, but I haven't noticed any discussion of late. > > Tim > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Friday, July 21, 2017 7:44 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > Yes thats correct. > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 > > Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Hello Carsten, > > > > Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal > submarines in the United States? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Greg C > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > > I agree.? Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher? > The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater > vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make > some sense out of it all. > > > On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. > > > > Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright > will kill all occupants instandly. > > > > Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters > for untrained non diver tourist. > > We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. > > > > Carsten > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:39:32 -0400 From: peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org, personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 Message-ID: <4xqi41rgj4tln0w4sip1j8h0.1500741572881 at email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" ??? Still on for Tuesday plus 1 week. Check with Doug Suhr. Mike? Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/22/17? 11:12 AM? (GMT-05:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ?? 1. Re: Submersible Rules ????? (MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) ?? 2. PSUBS in Islamorada FL (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 16:44:11 +0200 (MEST) From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Message-ID: <1500648251719.5629269.913b076d08848b366b57340b842765b636c006a3 at spica.telekom.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Yes thats correct. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal submarines in the United States? Thanks, Greg C ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules I agree.? Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher?? The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense out of it all. On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ??? Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. ???? ??? Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright ??? will kill all occupants instandly. ???? ??? Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble ??? scooters for untrained non diver tourist. ??? We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. ???? ??? Carsten ???? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Virus-free. www.avast.com ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:13:19 -0700 From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUBS in Islamorada FL Message-ID: <000001d302fd$0eb9b7b0$2c2d2710$@telus.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Are there any more details available for the PSUBS convention plans for Islamorada in August?? Not that I can make it to the Florida Keys this time, but I haven't noticed any discussion of late. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 7:44 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Yes thats correct. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal submarines in the United States? Thanks, Greg C ? _____? From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules I agree.? Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher?? The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense out of it all. On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de ? via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright will kill all occupants instandly. Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters for untrained non diver tourist. We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Virus-free.? www.avast.com ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 ****************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 110 ****************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 22 13:30:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 10:30:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Message-ID: <20170722103030.63469315@m0117460.ppops.net> Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 Many thanks Carsten, Makes sense. Regards, Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Hugh the rules are not public. But I can answer specific question if you have. The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): 13.00 Bilge pump At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. 14.00 Energy For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. 15.00 Emergency lighting Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. 16.00 Operating instructions The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. and so on.. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Hi Carsten, Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? Best regards, Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Hugh, First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. I will give you an example: DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. Give me a call if you find one. Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" Jon, I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required :- Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. Witnessed test dive. (Carsten can correct all this) Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. Just my pennies worth. Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Jon, they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > > Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding > commercial fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > > As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, > it would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > > Jon > > > >> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >> written on it? I doubt it. >> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >> limiting any rules for personal submersibles. >> Regards Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 22 13:33:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:33:40 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 110 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <070C0911-F572-4957-9264-1C79013DE1AD@gmail.com> Thanks Mike. Will add you to email list for dive logistics. Please send your email address and PN. BTW, this is not a Psub.org convention, just some Psubbers diving their boats in a great location. Cliff Cliff Redus > On Jul 22, 2017, at 12:26 PM, peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I'll be there for diving support. Mike Patterson > > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/22/17 12:39 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 110 > > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: PSUBS in Islamorada FL (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) > 2. Re: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 > (peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:38:35 -0400 > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUBS in Islamorada FL > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi Tim, > > There's been lots of planning, but offline among those who expressed an > interest in attending. To summarize, the dive dates are August 1-3. Snoopy > is at the Suhr's but probably will not be diving. Shackleton has an issue > that I will be trying to resolve doing canal tests, making use of the calm > water, davits, and brain trust on hand. I suspect the issue is that some > tanks are flooding faster than others. She takes a nose dive on submerging. > I'm not sure the issue will be resolved, but the test location and friends > on hand make it worth the trip. R300 will be there and is all systems go, > but Cliff's challenge will most likely be habitability given the > temperatures, so he'll try to do tows and transits submerged just to keep > the cabin conditions manageable. > > If anyone else is interested in joining us, now would be the perfect time > to speak up. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 11:13 AM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Are there any more details available for the PSUBS convention plans for > > Islamorada in August? Not that I can make it to the Florida Keys this > > time, but I haven't noticed any discussion of late. > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > > bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *MerlinSub at t-online.de via > > Personal_Submersibles > > *Sent:* Friday, July 21, 2017 7:44 AM > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > > > > > Yes thats correct. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 > > > > Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Carsten, > > > > > > > > Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal > > submarines in the United States? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Greg C > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > *From:* Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > > > > > > > I agree. Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher? > > The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater > > vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make > > some sense out of it all. > > > > > > On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. > > > > > > > > Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright > > will kill all occupants instandly. > > > > > > > > Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters > > for untrained non diver tourist. > > > > We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. > > > > > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: image001.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 350 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:39:32 -0400 > From: peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org, > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, > Issue 109 > Message-ID: <4xqi41rgj4tln0w4sip1j8h0.1500741572881 at email.android.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Still on for Tuesday plus 1 week. Check with Doug Suhr. Mike? > > > > > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/22/17 11:12 AM (GMT-05:00) > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 > > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > ?? 1. Re: Submersible Rules > ????? (MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) > ?? 2. PSUBS in Islamorada FL (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 16:44:11 +0200 (MEST) > From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > Message-ID: > <1500648251719.5629269.913b076d08848b366b57340b842765b636c006a3 at spica.telekom.de> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Yes thats correct. > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 > Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Hello Carsten, > > Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal submarines > in the United States? > > Thanks, > > Greg C > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > I agree.? Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher?? The > current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels > and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense > out of it all. > > > On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ??? Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. > ???? > ??? Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright > ??? will kill all occupants instandly. > ???? > ??? Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble > ??? scooters for untrained non diver tourist. > ??? We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. > ???? > ??? Carsten > ???? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > ? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:13:19 -0700 > From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUBS in Islamorada FL > Message-ID: <000001d302fd$0eb9b7b0$2c2d2710$@telus.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Are there any more details available for the PSUBS convention plans for Islamorada in August?? Not that I can make it to the Florida Keys this time, but I haven't noticed any discussion of late. > > Tim > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 7:44 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > Yes thats correct. > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 > > Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > Hello Carsten, > > > > Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal submarines in the United States? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Greg C > > > > ? _____? > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > > I agree.? Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher?? The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense out of it all. > > > On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de ? via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. > > > > Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright will kill all occupants instandly. > > > > Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters for untrained non diver tourist. > > We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. > > > > Carsten > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > Virus-free.? www.avast.com > > ? > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: image001.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 350 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 > ****************************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 110 > ****************************************************** > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 22 19:36:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 18:36:38 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 110 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, can you email me your email address and cell number. Cliff On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 12:26 PM, peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I'll be there for diving support. Mike Patterson > > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/22/17 12:39 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 110 > > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: PSUBS in Islamorada FL (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) > 2. Re: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 > (peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:38:35 -0400 > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUBS in Islamorada FL > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi Tim, > > There's been lots of planning, but offline among those who expressed an > interest in attending. To summarize, the dive dates are August 1-3. Snoopy > is at the Suhr's but probably will not be diving. Shackleton has an issue > that I will be trying to resolve doing canal tests, making use of the calm > water, davits, and brain trust on hand. I suspect the issue is that some > tanks are flooding faster than others. She takes a nose dive on submerging. > I'm not sure the issue will be resolved, but the test location and friends > on hand make it worth the trip. R300 will be there and is all systems go, > but Cliff's challenge will most likely be habitability given the > temperatures, so he'll try to do tows and transits submerged just to keep > the cabin conditions manageable. > > If anyone else is interested in joining us, now would be the perfect time > to speak up. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 11:13 AM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Are there any more details available for the PSUBS convention plans for > > Islamorada in August? Not that I can make it to the Florida Keys this > > time, but I haven't noticed any discussion of late. > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > > bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *MerlinSub at t-online.de via > > Personal_Submersibles > > *Sent:* Friday, July 21, 2017 7:44 AM > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > > > > > Yes thats correct. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 > > > > Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Carsten, > > > > > > > > Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal > > submarines in the United States? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Greg C > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > *From:* Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > > > > > > > I agree. Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher? > > The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater > > vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make > > some sense out of it all. > > > > > > On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. > > > > > > > > Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright > > will kill all occupants instandly. > > > > > > > > Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters > > for untrained non diver tourist. > > > > We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. > > > > > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link> > > > > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170722/67223acd/attachment-0001.html> > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: image001.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 350 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: 20170722/67223acd/attachment-0001.jpg> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:39:32 -0400 > From: peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org, > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, > Issue 109 > Message-ID: <4xqi41rgj4tln0w4sip1j8h0.1500741572881 at email.android.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Still on for Tuesday plus 1 week. Check with Doug Suhr. Mike? > > > > > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/22/17 11:12 AM (GMT-05:00) > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 > > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > ?? 1. Re: Submersible Rules > ????? (MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) > ?? 2. PSUBS in Islamorada FL (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 16:44:11 +0200 (MEST) > From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > Message-ID: > <1500648251719.5629269.913b076d08848b366b57340b842765 > b636c006a3 at spica.telekom.de> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Yes thats correct. > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 > Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Hello Carsten, > > Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal > submarines > in the United States? > > Thanks, > > Greg C > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > I agree.? Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher?? > The > current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels > and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some > sense > out of it all. > > > On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de > > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ??? Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. > ???? > ??? Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright > ??? will kill all occupants instandly. > ???? > ??? Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble > ??? scooters for untrained non diver tourist. > ??? We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. > ???? > ??? Carsten > ???? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> > Virus-free. www.avast.com > source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link> > ? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170721/4bfebd57/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:13:19 -0700 > From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUBS in Islamorada FL > Message-ID: <000001d302fd$0eb9b7b0$2c2d2710$@telus.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Are there any more details available for the PSUBS convention plans for > Islamorada in August?? Not that I can make it to the Florida Keys this > time, but I haven't noticed any discussion of late. > > Tim > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 7:44 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > Yes thats correct. > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 > > Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Hello Carsten, > > > > Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal > submarines in the United States? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Greg C > > > > ? _____? > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > > I agree.? Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher?? > The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater > vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make > some sense out of it all. > > > On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de >? via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. > > > > Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright > will kill all occupants instandly. > > > > Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters > for untrained non diver tourist. > > We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. > > > > Carsten > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> > > Virus-free.? source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link> > www.avast.com > > ? > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170722/42b4b9c7/attachment.html> > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: image001.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 350 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: 20170722/42b4b9c7/attachment.jpg> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 109 > ****************************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170722/02f0be23/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 49, Issue 110 > ****************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 00:39:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 16:39:05 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <20170722103030.63469315@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20170722103030.63469315@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. Alan Sent from my iPad rt > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > Many thanks Carsten, > > Makes sense. > Regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh the rules are not public. > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > 13.00 Bilge pump > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > 14.00 Energy > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > 16.00 Operating instructions > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > and so on.. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Hi Carsten, > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > Best regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh, > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > I will give you an example: > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > Give me a call if you find one. > > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Jon, > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required > :- > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > Witnessed test dive. > (Carsten can correct all this) > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > Just my pennies worth. > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Jon, > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding >> commercial > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". >> >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, >> it > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >>> written > on it? I doubt it. >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >>> limiting > any rules for personal submersibles. >>> Regards Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 00:50:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 21:50:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: References: <20170722103030.63469315@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. David Colombo On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Brian, > I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that > is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency > buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft > with the > sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't > do, after > all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. > Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > rt > > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern > that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another > person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be > some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height > of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably > high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for > such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something > like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to > my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside > from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal > vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life > jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > > > Many thanks Carsten, > > > > Makes sense. > > Regards, > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Hugh the rules are not public. > > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here > some samples (I use google auto translator): > > > > 13.00 Bilge pump > > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking > water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used > for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, > which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the > advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > > > 14.00 Energy > > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by > batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an > emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured > by a permanent installation. > > > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power > supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and > suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > > > 16.00 Operating instructions > > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all > technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > > > and so on.. > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > Hi Carsten, > > > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a > really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if > they ever want to go that way. > > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and > weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is > still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you > say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is > the cost of the rules? > > Best regards, > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Hugh, > > > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the > EU. > > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and > accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man > builder can fullfill. > > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in > this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is > safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in > abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material > (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder > himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > > > I will give you an example: > > > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the > welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also > certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own > pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be > a calibrate typ. > > > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood > autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap > material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore > industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person > responsible for the dock. > > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and > end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure > hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) > but for a fraction of the cost. > > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way > learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the > most homebuilder anyway like to do. > > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the > guy if they accept him or not. > > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will > accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 > Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full > documentation. > > > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey > certificate. > > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only > if the owners was outside or survife) > > > > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the > sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function > all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the > sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate > automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and > all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational > since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a > dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is > good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some > money > > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and > test from the building time. > > > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give > you a police for a propan tank style sub. > > Give me a call if you find one. > > > > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut > have no building certificate. > > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case > I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has > no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material > propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full > documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut > since 6. > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > Jon, > > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more > than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME > allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be > demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then > it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual > then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial > purposes in any way. > > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an > approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required > > :- > > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material > Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation > minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per > ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this > aspect) Emergency procedures. > > Witnessed test dive. > > (Carsten can correct all this) > > > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft > will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well > certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate > and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we > could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of > someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a > Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > > > Just my pennies worth. > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] > > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Jon, > > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation > between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy > certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be > relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going > through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel > frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub > in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate > proposals before they become law! > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hi Alan, > >> > >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding > >> commercial > > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and > non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for > private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category > exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich > people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I > believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in > as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel > to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the > perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines > by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > >> > >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, > >> it > > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were > identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying > authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really > believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > >> > >> Jon > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, > >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial > >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to > >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" > >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a > >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel > >>> written > > on it? I doubt it. > >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles > >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I > >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy > >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in > >>> limiting > > any rules for personal submersibles. > >>> Regards Alan > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 04:00:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: References: <20170722103030.63469315@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: David, I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat. It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. > > David Colombo > >> On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> Brian, >> I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that >> is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency >> buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the >> sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after >> all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. >> Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> rt >> > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > >> > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. >> > >> > Brian >> > >> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> > >> > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles >> > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform >> > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 >> > >> > Many thanks Carsten, >> > >> > Makes sense. >> > Regards, >> > Hugh >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles >> > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform >> > >> > Hugh the rules are not public. >> > But I can answer specific question if you have. >> > >> > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): >> > >> > 13.00 Bilge pump >> > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. >> > >> > 14.00 Energy >> > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. >> > >> > 15.00 Emergency lighting >> > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. >> > >> > 16.00 Operating instructions >> > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. >> > >> > and so on.. >> > >> > >> > -----Original-Nachricht----- >> > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform >> > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 >> > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" >> > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >> > >> > Hi Carsten, >> > >> > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. >> > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? >> > Best regards, >> > Hugh >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles >> > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform >> > >> > Hugh, >> > >> > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. >> > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. >> > >> > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. >> > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. >> > >> > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. >> > >> > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) >> > >> > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. >> > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. >> > >> > I will give you an example: >> > >> > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. >> > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. >> > >> > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. >> > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. >> > >> > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. >> > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. >> > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. >> > >> > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. >> > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. >> > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. >> > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. >> > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. >> > >> > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. >> > >> > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. >> > >> > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. >> > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) >> > >> > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. >> > >> > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. >> > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. >> > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. >> > >> > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. >> > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. >> > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money >> > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. >> > >> > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. >> > Give me a call if you find one. >> > >> > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. >> > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. >> > >> > >> > -----Original-Nachricht----- >> > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform >> > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 >> > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" >> > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" >> > >> > Jon, >> > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. >> > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. >> > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required >> > :- >> > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) >> > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) >> > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. >> > Witnessed test dive. >> > (Carsten can correct all this) >> > >> > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. >> > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. >> > >> > Just my pennies worth. >> > Hugh >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM >> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform >> > >> > Jon, >> > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! >> > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! >> > Cheers Alan >> > >> > Sent from my iPad >> > >> >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> >> >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding >> >> commercial >> > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" >> > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. >> > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". >> >> >> >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, >> >> it >> > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. >> >> >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >> >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >> >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >> >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >> >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >> >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >> >>> written >> > on it? I doubt it. >> >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >> >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >> >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >> >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >> >>> limiting >> > any rules for personal submersibles. >> >>> Regards Alan >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > ? >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 07:55:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 11:55:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUBS in Islamorada FL In-Reply-To: References: <000001d302fd$0eb9b7b0$2c2d2710$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1806634426.3134058.1500810956680@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,Do you flood all the tanks at the same time, or for and aft separately.? ?Does the sub sink evenly and then suddenly tip forward?Hank On Saturday, July 22, 2017, 12:38:55 PM EDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Tim, There's been lots of planning, but offline among those who expressed an interest in attending. To summarize, the dive dates are August 1-3. Snoopy is at the Suhr's but probably will not be diving. Shackleton has an issue that I will be trying to resolve doing canal tests, making use of the calm water, davits, and brain trust on hand. I suspect the issue is that some tanks are flooding faster than others. She takes a nose dive on submerging. I'm not sure the issue will be resolved, but the test location and friends on hand make it worth the trip. R300 will be there and is all systems go, but Cliff's challenge will most likely be habitability given the temperatures, so he'll try to do tows and transits submerged just to keep the cabin conditions manageable. If anyone else is interested in joining us, now would be the perfect time to speak up. Best, Alec On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 11:13 AM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Are there any more details available for the PSUBS convention plans for Islamorada in August?? Not that I can make it to the Florida Keys this time, but I haven't noticed any discussion of late. Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 7:44 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules ? Yes thats correct. ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? Hello Carsten, ? Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal submarines in the United States? ? Thanks, ? Greg C ? From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules ? I agree.? Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher?? The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense out of it all. On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. ? Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright will kill all occupants instandly. ? Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters for untrained non diver tourist. We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. ? Carsten ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ? | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 10:05:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 11:05:01 -0300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUBS in Islamorada FL In-Reply-To: <1806634426.3134058.1500810956680@mail.yahoo.com> References: <000001d302fd$0eb9b7b0$2c2d2710$@telus.net> <1806634426.3134058.1500810956680@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, The MBTs are flooded at the same time. I wouldn't say the pitch forward is sudden though. I know it isn't a free surfaces issue, because it's lots of small tanks. We're thinking of restricting the lines from the forward tanks. Best, Alec > On Jul 23, 2017, at 8:55 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, > Do you flood all the tanks at the same time, or for and aft separately.? Does the sub sink evenly and then suddenly tip forward? > Hank > > > On Saturday, July 22, 2017, 12:38:55 PM EDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Tim, > > There's been lots of planning, but offline among those who expressed an interest in attending. To summarize, the dive dates are August 1-3. Snoopy is at the Suhr's but probably will not be diving. Shackleton has an issue that I will be trying to resolve doing canal tests, making use of the calm water, davits, and brain trust on hand. I suspect the issue is that some tanks are flooding faster than others. She takes a nose dive on submerging. I'm not sure the issue will be resolved, but the test location and friends on hand make it worth the trip. R300 will be there and is all systems go, but Cliff's challenge will most likely be habitability given the temperatures, so he'll try to do tows and transits submerged just to keep the cabin conditions manageable. > > If anyone else is interested in joining us, now would be the perfect time to speak up. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 11:13 AM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Are there any more details available for the PSUBS convention plans for Islamorada in August? Not that I can make it to the Florida Keys this time, but I haven't noticed any discussion of late. > > Tim > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 7:44 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > Yes thats correct. > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > Datum: 2017-07-20T21:37:57+0200 > Von: "james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > Hello Carsten, > > > > Do I understand correctly that SL do not class/ certify personal submarines in the United States? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Greg C > > > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:09 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules > > > > > I agree. Does a wet ambient really need to carry a fire extinguisher? The current wording is much too broad to apply against all underwater vessels and I suppose this is the basic reason why MTS is trying to make some sense out of it all. > > > On 7/20/2017 12:11 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Most 1 atm rules would not fit for ambient. > > > > Example: A ambient 1 hour underwater at 40 m releasing his drop wright will kill all occupants instandly. > > > > Two years ago we get an request to certified such ambient bubble scooters for untrained non diver tourist. > > We decide not to follow this invitaion. Somebody else will maybe do. > > > > Carsten > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > ? > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 12:19:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 09:19:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Message-ID: <20170723091904.633E8FE2@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 15:58:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 07:58:19 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <20170723091904.633E8FE2@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20170723091904.633E8FE2@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, I had thought of something like that, but have the pole move from horizontal to vertical with a pneumatic cylinder. 16ft seems a bit extreme! You have yachts to contend with though, & you would probably need good control on your ascent to sit there for a while with the beacon out of the water before continuing to the surface. G.L. requires you to have communication with the support boat, so you could be told it was safe to surface. The Atlantis subs in Hawaii have a communication protocol where they say to the support boat that they are ready to surface, then they let out a massive bubble of air. The support boat acknowledges seeing the bubbles & gives them the all clear to surface. I am going with a retractable float because it can be used for the dual purpose of an emergency buoy to be released at depth, & a surfacing buoy. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 24/07/2017, at 4:19 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, David, > What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub. Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there. It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit. Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing. I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems. > > The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high ! I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize . > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 > > David, > I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard > buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat. > It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail. > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. > > David Colombo > > On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > Brian, > I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that > is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency > buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the > sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after > all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. > Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > rt > > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > > > Many thanks Carsten, > > > > Makes sense. > > Regards, > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Hugh the rules are not public. > > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > > > 13.00 Bilge pump > > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > > > 14.00 Energy > > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > > > 16.00 Operating instructions > > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > > > and so on.. > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > Hi Carsten, > > > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > > Best regards, > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Hugh, > > > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > > > I will give you an example: > > > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > > > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > > Give me a call if you find one. > > > > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > Jon, > > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required > > :- > > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > > Witnessed test dive. > > (Carsten can correct all this) > > > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > > > Just my pennies worth. > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Jon, > > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hi Alan, > >> > >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding > >> commercial > > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > >> > >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, > >> it > > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > >> > >> Jon > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, > >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial > >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to > >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" > >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a > >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel > >>> written > > on it? I doubt it. > >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles > >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I > >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy > >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in > >>> limiting > > any rules for personal submersibles. > >>> Regards Alan > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 18:14:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 22:14:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <20170723091904.633E8FE2@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20170723091904.633E8FE2@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <293376875.4053286.1500848082183@mail.yahoo.com> What does the dive flag mean to the surface traffic? From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Alan, David,??? ???????????????????????????? What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub.? Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable?on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there.?? It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit.?? Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing.? I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems.?The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high !?? I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize .? ?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 David,I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hardbuoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat.It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail.Cheers Alan? ? Sent from my iPad On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor.David ColomboOn Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Brian, I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. Alan Sent from my iPad rt > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing.? I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan).? The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter.? I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light.? I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel.? Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires,? Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > Many thanks Carsten, > > Makes sense. > Regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh the rules are not public. > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > 13.00 Bilge pump > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > 14.00 Energy > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > 16.00 Operating instructions > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > and so on.. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Hi Carsten, > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places.? That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > Many thanks for the clarification.? I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds.? As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner.? Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > Best regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh, > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > I will give you an example: > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > The SL certifiate is? a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not? a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > Give me a call if you find one. > > Vbr Carsten? ? -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Jon, > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body.? There could be more than one category possibly,? Retro approved and full compliance.? ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,.? From what I remember from our discussion he required > :- > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > Witnessed test dive. > (Carsten can correct all this) > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft? will have their own set of regs.? A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted.? I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten.? Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > Just my pennies worth. > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Jon, > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison.? However, regarding >> commercial > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use.? An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use.? What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that?? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". >> >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, >> it > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >>> written > on it? I doubt it. >>>? ?I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in.? From what I >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >>> limiting > any rules for personal submersibles. >>> Regards Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Dive.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10227 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 19:19:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:19:19 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <293376875.4053286.1500848082183@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170723091904.633E8FE2@m0117458.ppops.net> <293376875.4053286.1500848082183@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: pete, boat traffic has to stay 200 meters away from it or travel at less than 5 knots within that zone. Because the dive flag is universally known, it makes sense to use it for submarines also. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 24/07/2017, at 10:14 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > What does the dive flag mean to the surface traffic? > > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:21 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Alan, David, > What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub. Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there. It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit. Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing. I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems. > > The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high ! I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize . > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 > > David, > I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard > buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat. > It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail. > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. > David Colombo > On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > Brian, > I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that > is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency > buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the > sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after > all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. > Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > rt > > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > > > Many thanks Carsten, > > > > Makes sense. > > Regards, > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Hugh the rules are not public. > > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > > > 13.00 Bilge pump > > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > > > 14.00 Energy > > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > > > 16.00 Operating instructions > > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > > > and so on.. > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > Hi Carsten, > > > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > > Best regards, > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Hugh, > > > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > > > I will give you an example: > > > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > > > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > > Give me a call if you find one. > > > > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > Jon, > > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required > > :- > > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > > Witnessed test dive. > > (Carsten can correct all this) > > > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > > > Just my pennies worth. > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Jon, > > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hi Alan, > >> > >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding > >> commercial > > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > >> > >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, > >> it > > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > >> > >> Jon > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, > >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial > >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to > >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" > >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a > >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel > >>> written > > on it? I doubt it. > >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles > >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I > >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy > >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in > >>> limiting > > any rules for personal submersibles. > >>> Regards Alan > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 20:19:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 17:19:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform Message-ID: <002001d30412$8c4968e0$a4dc3aa0$@telus.net> That's true here, too, Alan? at least in theory (and the statutes). However, in the BC Okanagan the idiotic boaters seem to think that the divers down flag is a pylon to be raced around. In theory, theory and practice are the same. But in practice, they are not. During my navy days I learned that navy submarines would launch two low level white Arial flares just before surfacing. Several years ago there was an incident off Nanoose Bay when a USN nuke boat surfaced near a yacht and the yacht occupants went ballistic. They thought that they were under attack. Sad. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 4:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform pete, boat traffic has to stay 200 meters away from it or travel at less than 5 knots within that zone. Because the dive flag is universally known, it makes sense to use it for submarines also. Alan Sent from my iPad On 24/07/2017, at 10:14 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: What does the dive flag mean to the surface traffic? _____ From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Alan, David, What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub. Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there. It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit. Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing. I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems. The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high ! I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize . Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 David, I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat. It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. David Colombo On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Brian, I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. Alan Sent from my iPad rt > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > Many thanks Carsten, > > Makes sense. > Regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh the rules are not public. > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > 13.00 Bilge pump > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > 14.00 Energy > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > 16.00 Operating instructions > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > and so on.. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Hi Carsten, > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > Best regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh, > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > I will give you an example: > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > Give me a call if you find one. > > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Jon, > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required > :- > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > Witnessed test dive. > (Carsten can correct all this) > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > Just my pennies worth. > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Jon, > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding >> commercial > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". >> >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, >> it > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >>> written > on it? I doubt it. >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >>> limiting > any rules for personal submersibles. >>> Regards Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 20:35:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 17:35:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: ZR6cdQS20oQOBZR6edpxQH References: ZR6cdQS20oQOBZR6edpxQH Message-ID: <002a01d30414$b008cc60$101a6520$@telus.net> I used to work with a guy at the University of BC whose job it was to dive a Pisces sub to retrieve the torpedoes from the bottom off Nanoose Bay. I thought that that job would be really interesting work, but he said it was mostly dull, only mud and the odd bottle on the bottom, and cold in the sub since there was no heater (all battery power was for the sub, not the occupants). There was also an old O-class (I think) submarine often used as a live sonar target. It was painted bright yellow! No, really. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:20 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform That's true here, too, Alan? at least in theory (and the statutes). However, in the BC Okanagan the idiotic boaters seem to think that the divers down flag is a pylon to be raced around. In theory, theory and practice are the same. But in practice, they are not. During my navy days I learned that navy submarines would launch two low level white Arial flares just before surfacing. Several years ago there was an incident off Nanoose Bay when a USN nuke boat surfaced near a yacht and the yacht occupants went ballistic. They thought that they were under attack. Sad. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 4:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform pete, boat traffic has to stay 200 meters away from it or travel at less than 5 knots within that zone. Because the dive flag is universally known, it makes sense to use it for submarines also. Alan Sent from my iPad On 24/07/2017, at 10:14 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: What does the dive flag mean to the surface traffic? _____ From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Alan, David, What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub. Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there. It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit. Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing. I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems. The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high ! I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize . Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 David, I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat. It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. David Colombo On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Brian, I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. Alan Sent from my iPad rt > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > Many thanks Carsten, > > Makes sense. > Regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh the rules are not public. > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > 13.00 Bilge pump > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > 14.00 Energy > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > 16.00 Operating instructions > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > and so on.. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Hi Carsten, > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > Best regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh, > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > I will give you an example: > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > Give me a call if you find one. > > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Jon, > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required > :- > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > Witnessed test dive. > (Carsten can correct all this) > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > Just my pennies worth. > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Jon, > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding >> commercial > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". >> >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, >> it > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >>> written > on it? I doubt it. >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >>> limiting > any rules for personal submersibles. >>> Regards Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 21:01:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 18:01:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform Message-ID: <003401d30418$556401e0$002c05a0$@telus.net> Apparently, the yellow submarine was USS Menhaden, a Tench class sub. Just to clarify, the guy I used to work with at UBC during the 1980's used to work recovering torpedoes during the 1970's. UBC has nothing to do with the CF Maritime Experimental Test Range in Nanoose Bay. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:35 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform I used to work with a guy at the University of BC whose job it was to dive a Pisces sub to retrieve the torpedoes from the bottom off Nanoose Bay. I thought that that job would be really interesting work, but he said it was mostly dull, only mud and the odd bottle on the bottom, and cold in the sub since there was no heater (all battery power was for the sub, not the occupants). There was also an old O-class (I think) submarine often used as a live sonar target. It was painted bright yellow! No, really. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:20 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform That's true here, too, Alan? at least in theory (and the statutes). However, in the BC Okanagan the idiotic boaters seem to think that the divers down flag is a pylon to be raced around. In theory, theory and practice are the same. But in practice, they are not. During my navy days I learned that navy submarines would launch two low level white Arial flares just before surfacing. Several years ago there was an incident off Nanoose Bay when a USN nuke boat surfaced near a yacht and the yacht occupants went ballistic. They thought that they were under attack. Sad. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 4:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform pete, boat traffic has to stay 200 meters away from it or travel at less than 5 knots within that zone. Because the dive flag is universally known, it makes sense to use it for submarines also. Alan Sent from my iPad On 24/07/2017, at 10:14 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: What does the dive flag mean to the surface traffic? _____ From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Alan, David, What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub. Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there. It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit. Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing. I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems. The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high ! I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize . Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 David, I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat. It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. David Colombo On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Brian, I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. Alan Sent from my iPad rt > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > Many thanks Carsten, > > Makes sense. > Regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh the rules are not public. > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > 13.00 Bilge pump > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > 14.00 Energy > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > 16.00 Operating instructions > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > and so on.. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Hi Carsten, > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > Best regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh, > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > I will give you an example: > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > Give me a call if you find one. > > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Jon, > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required > :- > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > Witnessed test dive. > (Carsten can correct all this) > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > Just my pennies worth. > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Jon, > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding >> commercial > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". >> >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, >> it > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >>> written > on it? I doubt it. >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >>> limiting > any rules for personal submersibles. >>> Regards Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 21:15:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 01:15:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <003401d30418$556401e0$002c05a0$@telus.net> References: <003401d30418$556401e0$002c05a0$@telus.net> Message-ID: <744857581.3485638.1500858922474@mail.yahoo.com> Tim,One day I was diving in my favourite lake and my buoy escaped the sub and I surfaced about 30 feet from a lady in a kayak. ?She thought it was pretty cool and we had a nice visit floating on a calm lake. ?Imagine how she and her husband must have felt when a submarine appears from nowhere. ?I can surface very gently unlike my kids. ?It would not have been tragic at all if I hit the kayak, but it made me realize I had to stop diving in that lake in the tourist season. ?From now on I will have a support boat. ?Hank On Sunday, July 23, 2017, 9:01:26 PM EDT, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv7031572182 #yiv7031572182 -- _filtered #yiv7031572182 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv7031572182 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv7031572182 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv7031572182 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv7031572182 #yiv7031572182 p.yiv7031572182MsoNormal, #yiv7031572182 li.yiv7031572182MsoNormal, #yiv7031572182 div.yiv7031572182MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv7031572182 a:link, #yiv7031572182 span.yiv7031572182MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7031572182 a:visited, #yiv7031572182 span.yiv7031572182MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7031572182 span.yiv7031572182EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7031572182 span.yiv7031572182EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7031572182 span.yiv7031572182EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7031572182 .yiv7031572182MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv7031572182 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv7031572182 div.yiv7031572182WordSection1 {}#yiv7031572182 Apparently, the yellow submarine was USS Menhaden, a Tench class sub. Just to clarify, the guy I used to work with at UBC during the 1980's used to work recovering torpedoes during the 1970's.? UBC has nothing to do with the CF Maritime Experimental Test Range in Nanoose Bay. ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:35 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform ? I used to work with a guy at the University of BC whose job it was to dive a Pisces sub to retrieve the torpedoes from the bottom off Nanoose Bay.? I thought that that job would be really interesting work, but he said it was mostly dull, only mud and the odd bottle on the bottom, and cold in the sub since there was no heater (all battery power was for the sub, not the occupants).? There was also an old O-class (I think) submarine often used as a live sonar target.? It was painted bright yellow!? No, really. ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:20 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform ? That's true here, too, Alan? at least in theory (and the statutes). However, in the BC Okanagan the idiotic boaters seem to think that the divers down flag is a pylon to be raced around. In theory, theory and practice are the same.? But in practice, they are not. ? During my navy days I learned that navy submarines would launch two low level white Arial flares just before surfacing.? Several years ago there was an incident off Nanoose Bay when a USN nuke boat surfaced near a yacht and the yacht occupants went ballistic.? They thought that they were under attack.? Sad. Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 4:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform ? pete, boat traffic has to stay 200 meters away from it or travel at less than 5 knots within that zone. Because the dive flag is universally known, it makes sense to use it for submarines also. Alan Sent from my iPad On 24/07/2017, at 10:14 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What does the dive flag mean to the surface traffic? ? From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform ? Alan, David,??? ???????????????????????????? What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub.? Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable?on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there.?? It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit.?? Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing.? I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems. ? The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high !?? I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize .? ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 David, I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat. It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail. Cheers Alan ? ? Sent from my iPad On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. David Colombo On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Brian, I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. Alan Sent from my iPad rt > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing.? I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan).? The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter.? I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light.? I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel.? Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires,? Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > Many thanks Carsten, > > Makes sense. > Regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh the rules are not public. > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > 13.00 Bilge pump > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > 14.00 Energy > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > 16.00 Operating instructions > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > and so on.. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Hi Carsten, > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places.? That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > Many thanks for the clarification.? I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds.? As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner.? Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > Best regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh, > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > I will give you an example: > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > The SL certifiate is? a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not? a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > Give me a call if you find one. > > Vbr Carsten? ? -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Jon, > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body.? There could be more than one category possibly,? Retro approved and full compliance.? ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,.? From what I remember from our discussion he required > :- > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > Witnessed test dive. > (Carsten can correct all this) > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft? will have their own set of regs.? A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted.? I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten.? Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > Just my pennies worth. > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Jon, > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison.? However, regarding >> commercial > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use.? An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use.? What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that?? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". >> >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, >> it > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >>> written > on it? I doubt it. >>>? ?I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in.? From what I >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >>> limiting > any rules for personal submersibles. >>> Regards Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 22:07:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 14:07:14 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <744857581.3485638.1500858922474@mail.yahoo.com> References: <003401d30418$556401e0$002c05a0$@telus.net> <744857581.3485638.1500858922474@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tim, maybe I better add flashing lights to my surfacing buoy. I was thinking of incorporating my emergency transmitter in the base of the buoy anyway. I was diving in a lake on my own & were very aware that speed boats can come out of nowhere, so was stopping near the surface & listening for boat traffic. I have one of David Bartsch's passive sonar units that would be a good addition to my current build for surfacing purposes. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 24/07/2017, at 1:15 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Tim, > One day I was diving in my favourite lake and my buoy escaped the sub and I surfaced about 30 feet from a lady in a kayak. She thought it was pretty cool and we had a nice visit floating on a calm lake. Imagine how she and her husband must have felt when a submarine appears from nowhere. I can surface very gently unlike my kids. It would not have been tragic at all if I hit the kayak, but it made me realize I had to stop diving in that lake in the tourist season. From now on I will have a support boat. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 23, 2017, 9:01:26 PM EDT, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Apparently, the yellow submarine was USS Menhaden, a Tench class sub. > > Just to clarify, the guy I used to work with at UBC during the 1980's used to work recovering torpedoes during the 1970's. UBC has nothing to do with the CF Maritime Experimental Test Range in Nanoose Bay. > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:35 PM > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform > > > > I used to work with a guy at the University of BC whose job it was to dive a Pisces sub to retrieve the torpedoes from the bottom off Nanoose Bay. I thought that that job would be really interesting work, but he said it was mostly dull, only mud and the odd bottle on the bottom, and cold in the sub since there was no heater (all battery power was for the sub, not the occupants). There was also an old O-class (I think) submarine often used as a live sonar target. It was painted bright yellow! No, really. > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:20 PM > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform > > > > That's true here, too, Alan? at least in theory (and the statutes). > > However, in the BC Okanagan the idiotic boaters seem to think that the divers down flag is a pylon to be raced around. > > In theory, theory and practice are the same. But in practice, they are not. > > > > During my navy days I learned that navy submarines would launch two low level white Arial flares just before surfacing. Several years ago there was an incident off Nanoose Bay when a USN nuke boat surfaced near a yacht and the yacht occupants went ballistic. They thought that they were under attack. Sad. > > Tim > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 4:19 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > pete, > > boat traffic has to stay 200 meters away from it or travel at less than 5 > > knots within that zone. Because the dive flag is universally known, it > > makes sense to use it for submarines also. > > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 24/07/2017, at 10:14 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > What does the dive flag mean to the surface traffic? > > > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:21 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Alan, David, > What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub. Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there. It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit. Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing. I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems. > > The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high ! I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize . > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 > > David, > I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard > buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat. > It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail. > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. > David Colombo > On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > Brian, > I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that > is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency > buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the > sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after > all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. > Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > rt > > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > > > Many thanks Carsten, > > > > Makes sense. > > Regards, > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Hugh the rules are not public. > > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > > > 13.00 Bilge pump > > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > > > 14.00 Energy > > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > > > 16.00 Operating instructions > > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > > > and so on.. > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > Hi Carsten, > > > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > > Best regards, > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Hugh, > > > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > > > I will give you an example: > > > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > > > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > > Give me a call if you find one. > > > > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > Jon, > > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required > > :- > > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > > Witnessed test dive. > > (Carsten can correct all this) > > > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > > > Just my pennies worth. > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Jon, > > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hi Alan, > >> > >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding > >> commercial > > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > >> > >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, > >> it > > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > >> > >> Jon > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, > >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial > >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to > >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" > >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a > >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel > >>> written > > on it? I doubt it. > >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles > >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I > >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy > >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in > >>> limiting > > any rules for personal submersibles. > >>> Regards Alan > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 24 00:02:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 21:02:10 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: ZS2cdq5XpwSGxZS2ddPDU1 References: <003401d30418$556401e0$002c05a0$@telus.net> ZS2cdq5XpwSGxZS2ddPDU1 Message-ID: <005f01d30431$a0db94d0$e292be70$@telus.net> Hank, she and her husband certainly had a great story to tell. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 6:15 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform Tim, One day I was diving in my favourite lake and my buoy escaped the sub and I surfaced about 30 feet from a lady in a kayak. She thought it was pretty cool and we had a nice visit floating on a calm lake. Imagine how she and her husband must have felt when a submarine appears from nowhere. I can surface very gently unlike my kids. It would not have been tragic at all if I hit the kayak, but it made me realize I had to stop diving in that lake in the tourist season. From now on I will have a support boat. Hank On Sunday, July 23, 2017, 9:01:26 PM EDT, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Apparently, the yellow submarine was USS Menhaden, a Tench class sub. Just to clarify, the guy I used to work with at UBC during the 1980's used to work recovering torpedoes during the 1970's. UBC has nothing to do with the CF Maritime Experimental Test Range in Nanoose Bay. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:35 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform I used to work with a guy at the University of BC whose job it was to dive a Pisces sub to retrieve the torpedoes from the bottom off Nanoose Bay. I thought that that job would be really interesting work, but he said it was mostly dull, only mud and the odd bottle on the bottom, and cold in the sub since there was no heater (all battery power was for the sub, not the occupants). There was also an old O-class (I think) submarine often used as a live sonar target. It was painted bright yellow! No, really. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:20 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform That's true here, too, Alan? at least in theory (and the statutes). However, in the BC Okanagan the idiotic boaters seem to think that the divers down flag is a pylon to be raced around. In theory, theory and practice are the same. But in practice, they are not. During my navy days I learned that navy submarines would launch two low level white Arial flares just before surfacing. Several years ago there was an incident off Nanoose Bay when a USN nuke boat surfaced near a yacht and the yacht occupants went ballistic. They thought that they were under attack. Sad. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 4:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform pete, boat traffic has to stay 200 meters away from it or travel at less than 5 knots within that zone. Because the dive flag is universally known, it makes sense to use it for submarines also. Alan Sent from my iPad On 24/07/2017, at 10:14 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: What does the dive flag mean to the surface traffic? _____ From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Alan, David, What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub. Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there. It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit. Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing. I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems. The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high ! I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize . Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 David, I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat. It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. David Colombo On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Brian, I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. Alan Sent from my iPad rt > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > Many thanks Carsten, > > Makes sense. > Regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh the rules are not public. > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > 13.00 Bilge pump > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > 14.00 Energy > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > 16.00 Operating instructions > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > and so on.. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Hi Carsten, > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > Best regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh, > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > I will give you an example: > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > Give me a call if you find one. > > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Jon, > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required > :- > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > Witnessed test dive. > (Carsten can correct all this) > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > Just my pennies worth. > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Jon, > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding >> commercial > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". >> >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, >> it > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >>> written > on it? I doubt it. >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >>> limiting > any rules for personal submersibles. >>> Regards Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 24 00:05:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 21:05:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: ZSpMdQugboQOBZSpOdqF4p References: <003401d30418$556401e0$002c05a0$@telus.net> <744857581.3485638.1500858922474@mail.yahoo.com> ZSpMdQugboQOBZSpOdqF4p Message-ID: <006401d30432$06457ed0$12d07c70$@telus.net> Alan, David's passive sonar would be great. Do you have his bi-transducer system to determine direction of sound? Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 7:07 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform Tim, maybe I better add flashing lights to my surfacing buoy. I was thinking of incorporating my emergency transmitter in the base of the buoy anyway. I was diving in a lake on my own & were very aware that speed boats can come out of nowhere, so was stopping near the surface & listening for boat traffic. I have one of David Bartsch's passive sonar units that would be a good addition to my current build for surfacing purposes. Alan Sent from my iPad On 24/07/2017, at 1:15 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Tim, One day I was diving in my favourite lake and my buoy escaped the sub and I surfaced about 30 feet from a lady in a kayak. She thought it was pretty cool and we had a nice visit floating on a calm lake. Imagine how she and her husband must have felt when a submarine appears from nowhere. I can surface very gently unlike my kids. It would not have been tragic at all if I hit the kayak, but it made me realize I had to stop diving in that lake in the tourist season. From now on I will have a support boat. Hank On Sunday, July 23, 2017, 9:01:26 PM EDT, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Apparently, the yellow submarine was USS Menhaden, a Tench class sub. Just to clarify, the guy I used to work with at UBC during the 1980's used to work recovering torpedoes during the 1970's. UBC has nothing to do with the CF Maritime Experimental Test Range in Nanoose Bay. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:35 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform I used to work with a guy at the University of BC whose job it was to dive a Pisces sub to retrieve the torpedoes from the bottom off Nanoose Bay. I thought that that job would be really interesting work, but he said it was mostly dull, only mud and the odd bottle on the bottom, and cold in the sub since there was no heater (all battery power was for the sub, not the occupants). There was also an old O-class (I think) submarine often used as a live sonar target. It was painted bright yellow! No, really. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:20 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform That's true here, too, Alan? at least in theory (and the statutes). However, in the BC Okanagan the idiotic boaters seem to think that the divers down flag is a pylon to be raced around. In theory, theory and practice are the same. But in practice, they are not. During my navy days I learned that navy submarines would launch two low level white Arial flares just before surfacing. Several years ago there was an incident off Nanoose Bay when a USN nuke boat surfaced near a yacht and the yacht occupants went ballistic. They thought that they were under attack. Sad. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 4:19 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform pete, boat traffic has to stay 200 meters away from it or travel at less than 5 knots within that zone. Because the dive flag is universally known, it makes sense to use it for submarines also. Alan Sent from my iPad On 24/07/2017, at 10:14 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: What does the dive flag mean to the surface traffic? _____ From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Alan, David, What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub. Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there. It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit. Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing. I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems. The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high ! I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize . Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 David, I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat. It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. David Colombo On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Brian, I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. Alan Sent from my iPad rt > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > Many thanks Carsten, > > Makes sense. > Regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh the rules are not public. > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > 13.00 Bilge pump > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > 14.00 Energy > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > 16.00 Operating instructions > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > and so on.. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Hi Carsten, > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > Best regards, > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Hugh, > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > I will give you an example: > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > Give me a call if you find one. > > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Jon, > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required > :- > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > Witnessed test dive. > (Carsten can correct all this) > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > Just my pennies worth. > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Jon, > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding >> commercial > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". >> >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, >> it > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel >>> written > on it? I doubt it. >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in >>> limiting > any rules for personal submersibles. >>> Regards Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 24 01:17:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 17:17:03 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <006401d30432$06457ed0$12d07c70$@telus.net> References: <003401d30418$556401e0$002c05a0$@telus.net> <744857581.3485638.1500858922474@mail.yahoo.com> <006401d30432$06457ed0$12d07c70$@telus.net> Message-ID: Tim, I have two transducers. I guess if you had the transducers either side of the sub & headphones on, you would pick up direction well! Certainly you would hear the increase in noise if it was getting nearer. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 24/07/2017, at 4:05 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > David's passive sonar would be great. Do you have his bi-transducer system to determine direction of sound? > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 7:07 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform > > Tim, > maybe I better add flashing lights to my surfacing buoy. I was thinking > of incorporating my emergency transmitter in the base of the buoy anyway. > I was diving in a lake on my own & were very aware that speed boats > can come out of nowhere, so was stopping near the surface & listening > for boat traffic. I have one of David Bartsch's passive sonar units that > would be a good addition to my current build for surfacing purposes. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/07/2017, at 1:15 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Tim, > One day I was diving in my favourite lake and my buoy escaped the sub and I surfaced about 30 feet from a lady in a kayak. She thought it was pretty cool and we had a nice visit floating on a calm lake. Imagine how she and her husband must have felt when a submarine appears from nowhere. I can surface very gently unlike my kids. It would not have been tragic at all if I hit the kayak, but it made me realize I had to stop diving in that lake in the tourist season. From now on I will have a support boat. > Hank > > > On Sunday, July 23, 2017, 9:01:26 PM EDT, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Apparently, the yellow submarine was USS Menhaden, a Tench class sub. > > Just to clarify, the guy I used to work with at UBC during the 1980's used to work recovering torpedoes during the 1970's. UBC has nothing to do with the CF Maritime Experimental Test Range in Nanoose Bay. > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:35 PM > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform > > > > I used to work with a guy at the University of BC whose job it was to dive a Pisces sub to retrieve the torpedoes from the bottom off Nanoose Bay. I thought that that job would be really interesting work, but he said it was mostly dull, only mud and the odd bottle on the bottom, and cold in the sub since there was no heater (all battery power was for the sub, not the occupants). There was also an old O-class (I think) submarine often used as a live sonar target. It was painted bright yellow! No, really. > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:20 PM > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform > > > > That's true here, too, Alan? at least in theory (and the statutes). > > However, in the BC Okanagan the idiotic boaters seem to think that the divers down flag is a pylon to be raced around. > > In theory, theory and practice are the same. But in practice, they are not. > > > > During my navy days I learned that navy submarines would launch two low level white Arial flares just before surfacing. Several years ago there was an incident off Nanoose Bay when a USN nuke boat surfaced near a yacht and the yacht occupants went ballistic. They thought that they were under attack. Sad. > > Tim > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 4:19 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > pete, > > boat traffic has to stay 200 meters away from it or travel at less than 5 > > knots within that zone. Because the dive flag is universally known, it > > makes sense to use it for submarines also. > > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 24/07/2017, at 10:14 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > What does the dive flag mean to the surface traffic? > > > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:21 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Alan, David, > > What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub. Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there. It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit. Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing. I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems. > > > > The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high ! I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize . > > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 > > David, > > I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard > > buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat. > > It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail. > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. > > David Colombo > > On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Brian, > I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that > is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency > buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the > sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after > all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. > Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > rt > > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > > > Many thanks Carsten, > > > > Makes sense. > > Regards, > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Hugh the rules are not public. > > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > > > 13.00 Bilge pump > > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > > > 14.00 Energy > > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > > > 16.00 Operating instructions > > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > > > and so on.. > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > Hi Carsten, > > > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > > Best regards, > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Hugh, > > > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > > > I will give you an example: > > > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > > > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > > Give me a call if you find one. > > > > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > Jon, > > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required > > :- > > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > > Witnessed test dive. > > (Carsten can correct all this) > > > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > > > Just my pennies worth. > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Jon, > > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hi Alan, > >> > >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding > >> commercial > > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > >> > >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, > >> it > > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > >> > >> Jon > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, > >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial > >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to > >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" > >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a > >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel > >>> written > > on it? I doubt it. > >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles > >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I > >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy > >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in > >>> limiting > > any rules for personal submersibles. > >>> Regards Alan > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 24 16:01:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 13:01:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Message-ID: <20170724130158.63465553@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 24 16:52:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 08:52:47 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <20170724130158.63465553@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20170724130158.63465553@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, I am pretty set on my option, but in the past we have discussed having a camera periscope, to check if the coast was clear. We have also discussed telescoping poles operated by pneumatics as an option. From our discussion on regulations It sounds like there are no existing rules regarding 16ft high poles & that this is just what your particular coast guard is wanting. Perhaps he could be talked in to a dive flag on a buoy; after all it's all the protection a diver gets from being run over by a boat, so why shouldn't it be all the protection a boat gets from running in to a submarine? Alan Sent from my iPad > On 25/07/2017, at 8:01 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, It doesn't seem like enough length of a pole if you go starting from a vertical position, you only have the depth of the sub, which in my case is only about 6 feet. And that doesn't give you enough support for the pole. I was thinking of having a whip antenna at the very end which would pull out of a restraint when the cable pulls the warning pole upright. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 07:58:19 +1200 > > Brian, > I had thought of something like that, but have the pole move from horizontal > to vertical with a pneumatic cylinder. > 16ft seems a bit extreme! You have yachts to contend with though, & you > would probably need good control on your ascent to sit there for a while with > the beacon out of the water before continuing to the surface. > G.L. requires you to have communication with the support boat, so you > could be told it was safe to surface. The Atlantis subs in Hawaii have a > communication protocol where they say to the support boat that they > are ready to surface, then they let out a massive bubble of air. The support > boat acknowledges seeing the bubbles & gives them the all clear to surface. > I am going with a retractable float because it can be used for the dual purpose > of an emergency buoy to be released at depth, & a surfacing buoy. > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/07/2017, at 4:19 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, David, > What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub. Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there. It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit. Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing. I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems. > > The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high ! I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize . > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200 > > David, > I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard > buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat. > It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail. > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor. > > David Colombo > > On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > Brian, > I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that > is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency > buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the > sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after > all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable. > Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > rt > > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing. I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan). The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter. I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light. I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel. Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires, Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number. > > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200 > > > > Many thanks Carsten, > > > > Makes sense. > > Regards, > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Hugh the rules are not public. > > But I can answer specific question if you have. > > > > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator): > > > > 13.00 Bilge pump > > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure. > > > > 14.00 Energy > > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation. > > > > 15.00 Emergency lighting > > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves. > > > > 16.00 Operating instructions > > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation. > > > > and so on.. > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200 > > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > Hi Carsten, > > > > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places. That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way. > > Many thanks for the clarification. I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds. As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner. Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules? > > Best regards, > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Hugh, > > > > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. > > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. > > > > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill. > > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants. > > > > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers. > > > > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-) > > > > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. > > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. > > > > I will give you an example: > > > > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. > > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. > > > > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. > > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. > > > > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. > > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. > > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. > > > > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. > > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. > > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. > > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. > > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. > > > > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. > > > > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. > > > > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. > > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) > > > > The SL certifiate is a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. > > > > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. > > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. > > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. > > > > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. > > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. > > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money > > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. > > > > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. > > Give me a call if you find one. > > > > Vbr Carsten -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. > > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200 > > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > > Jon, > > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body. There could be more than one category possibly, Retro approved and full compliance. ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. > > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way. > > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,. From what I remember from our discussion he required > > :- > > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these) > > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done) > > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures. > > Witnessed test dive. > > (Carsten can correct all this) > > > > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft will have their own set of regs. A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising. > > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted. I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten. Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible. > > > > Just my pennies worth. > > Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > > > > Jon, > > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany! > > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law! > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hi Alan, > >> > >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison. However, regarding > >> commercial > > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use. An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use. What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal" > > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built. > > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that? Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental". > >> > >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, > >> it > > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business. > >> > >> Jon > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon, > >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial > >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to > >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle" > >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a > >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel > >>> written > > on it? I doubt it. > >>> I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles > >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in. From what I > >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy > >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in > >>> limiting > > any rules for personal submersibles. > >>> Regards Alan > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 24 17:33:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 14:33:02 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Message-ID: <20170724143302.63465A26@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 01:07:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 01:07:26 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <20170723091904.633E8FE2@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20170723091904.633E8FE2@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <258b0450-1c44-e75b-9790-05a0293903a3@psubs.org> Hi Brian, It looks to me that Rule 24(g)(i) of USCG Navigation Rules would apply to submersibles. See https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent The rule is that the light must be seen from a distance of at least 3 miles. So height would be determined by line-of-sight between you and whatever vessel might be around to observe you. The higher the target vessel observation deck, the lower your light needs to be. Assuming the target is a kayak with passenger eyeball height at 3-feet (sitting position), you would need your light to be one-foot high above the water. Depending upon the buoyancy of your submarine you may not need a mast at all. See http://www.calculatoredge.com/electronics/lineofsight.htm Jon On 7/23/2017 12:19 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet > high ! I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I > can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 20:02:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 17:02:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Message-ID: <20170725170245.7C270BF2@m0117457.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 20:08:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:08:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <20170725170245.7C270BF2@m0117457.ppops.net> References: <20170725170245.7C270BF2@m0117457.ppops.net> Message-ID: <944203027.917292.1501027701905@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,If you can stop short of the surface and sit and listen, you can hear boats from quite far away. ?I have experienced this, I actually though a boat was very close to me and I was worried about surfacing. ?It turned out the boat was very far away.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2017, 8:03:02 PM EDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,????????????? That makes sense.? I think another calculation that would be helpful would be a jet ski or a power boat traveling at 40 mph at the location of a surfacing sub.? At 40 mph you are traveling 58.66 ft/sec,? it is generally accepted that a person's reaction time is about 1.5 seconds.? If that were the case then once the surfacing sub is noticed at it's critical time in which to react would be approx. 87.99 feet.? And that would mean JUST in time to avoid, if it were a boat and maybe somebody's not paying attention it?could be a close call indeed?.??Better?to hit a flashing light than cold hard steel !?? So the length of your warning pole ( and your rate of surfacing)?could buy that annoying jet ski rider a couple of extra seconds to react. ?Brian?? ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 01:07:26 -0400 Hi Brian, It looks to me that Rule 24(g)(i) of USCG Navigation Rules would apply to submersibles.? See https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent The rule is that the light must be seen from a distance of at least 3 miles.? So height would be determined by line-of-sight between you and whatever vessel might be around to observe you.? The higher the target vessel observation deck, the lower your light needs to be.? Assuming the target is a kayak with passenger eyeball height at 3-feet (sitting position), you would need your light to be one-foot high above the water.? Depending upon the buoyancy of your submarine you may not need a mast at all.? See http://www.calculatoredge.com/electronics/lineofsight.htm Jon On 7/23/2017 12:19 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high !?? I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize .? ? _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 20:08:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:08:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <20170725170245.7C270BF2@m0117457.ppops.net> References: <20170725170245.7C270BF2@m0117457.ppops.net> Message-ID: <944203027.917292.1501027701905@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,If you can stop short of the surface and sit and listen, you can hear boats from quite far away. ?I have experienced this, I actually though a boat was very close to me and I was worried about surfacing. ?It turned out the boat was very far away.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2017, 8:03:02 PM EDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,????????????? That makes sense.? I think another calculation that would be helpful would be a jet ski or a power boat traveling at 40 mph at the location of a surfacing sub.? At 40 mph you are traveling 58.66 ft/sec,? it is generally accepted that a person's reaction time is about 1.5 seconds.? If that were the case then once the surfacing sub is noticed at it's critical time in which to react would be approx. 87.99 feet.? And that would mean JUST in time to avoid, if it were a boat and maybe somebody's not paying attention it?could be a close call indeed?.??Better?to hit a flashing light than cold hard steel !?? So the length of your warning pole ( and your rate of surfacing)?could buy that annoying jet ski rider a couple of extra seconds to react. ?Brian?? ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 01:07:26 -0400 Hi Brian, It looks to me that Rule 24(g)(i) of USCG Navigation Rules would apply to submersibles.? See https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent The rule is that the light must be seen from a distance of at least 3 miles.? So height would be determined by line-of-sight between you and whatever vessel might be around to observe you.? The higher the target vessel observation deck, the lower your light needs to be.? Assuming the target is a kayak with passenger eyeball height at 3-feet (sitting position), you would need your light to be one-foot high above the water.? Depending upon the buoyancy of your submarine you may not need a mast at all.? See http://www.calculatoredge.com/electronics/lineofsight.htm Jon On 7/23/2017 12:19 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high !?? I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize .? ? _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 20:25:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 10:25:23 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: <944203027.917292.1501027701905@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170725170245.7C270BF2@m0117457.ppops.net> <944203027.917292.1501027701905@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, The trouble with stopping and listening is you don't hear yachts... We have to be very careful of them when SCUBA diving in Melbourne for this reason, and also because they are used to having absolute right of way and are even less likely to take notice of a buoy or dive flag than jetskis. I have had a whole fleet of racing yachts sail right over divers in the water, despite our dive flag, yelling, and almost point-blank ramming with the dive boat. Cheers, Steve On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:08 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Brian, > If you can stop short of the surface and sit and listen, you can hear > boats from quite far away. I have experienced this, I actually though a > boat was very close to me and I was worried about surfacing. It turned out > the boat was very far away. > Hank > > > On Tuesday, July 25, 2017, 8:03:02 PM EDT, Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Jon, > That makes sense. I think another calculation that would be > helpful would be a jet ski or a power boat traveling at 40 mph at the > location of a surfacing sub. At 40 mph you are traveling 58.66 ft/sec, it > is generally accepted that a person's reaction time is about 1.5 seconds. > If that were the case then once the surfacing sub is noticed at it's > critical time in which to react would be approx. 87.99 feet. And that > would mean JUST in time to avoid, if it were a boat and maybe somebody's > not paying attention it could be a close call indeed . Better to hit a > flashing light than cold hard steel ! So the length of your warning pole > ( and your rate of surfacing) could buy that annoying jet ski rider a > couple of extra seconds to react. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform > Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 01:07:26 -0400 > > > Hi Brian, > > It looks to me that Rule 24(g)(i) of USCG Navigation Rules would apply to > submersibles. See https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent > > The rule is that the light must be seen from a distance of at least 3 > miles. So height would be determined by line-of-sight between you and > whatever vessel might be around to observe you. The higher the target > vessel observation deck, the lower your light needs to be. Assuming the > target is a kayak with passenger eyeball height at 3-feet (sitting > position), you would need your light to be one-foot high above the water. > Depending upon the buoyancy of your submarine you may not need a mast at > all. See http://www.calculatoredge.com/electronics/lineofsight.htm > > Jon > > On 7/23/2017 12:19 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high > ! I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, > other wise it would be hard to stabilize . > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 20:34:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:34:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform In-Reply-To: References: <20170725170245.7C270BF2@m0117457.ppops.net> <944203027.917292.1501027701905@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1353184935.932496.1501029280789@mail.yahoo.com> Steve,Good point! ?No sailboats to speak of here, or maybe there are and I could not hear them ;-)Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2017, 8:25:41 PM EDT, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,The trouble with?stopping and listening is you don't hear?yachts...? We have to be very careful of them when SCUBA diving in Melbourne?for this reason, and also because they are used to having absolute right of?way and are even less likely to?take notice of a buoy or dive flag than?jetskis.? I have had a whole fleet of racing yachts?sail?right over divers in the water, despite our dive?flag, yelling, and?almost point-blank ramming with the?dive boat. Cheers,Steve On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:08 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,If you can stop short of the surface and sit and listen, you can hear boats from quite far away.? I have experienced this, I actually though a boat was very close to me and I was worried about surfacing.? It turned out the boat was very far away.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2017, 8:03:02 PM EDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,????????????? That makes sense.? I think another calculation that would be helpful would be a jet ski or a power boat traveling at 40 mph at the location of a surfacing sub.? At 40 mph you are traveling 58.66 ft/sec,? it is generally accepted that a person's reaction time is about 1.5 seconds.? If that were the case then once the surfacing sub is noticed at it's critical time in which to react would be approx. 87.99 feet.? And that would mean JUST in time to avoid, if it were a boat and maybe somebody's not paying attention it?could be a close call indeed?.??Better?to hit a flashing light than cold hard steel !?? So the length of your warning pole ( and your rate of surfacing)?could buy that annoying jet ski rider a couple of extra seconds to react. ?Brian?? ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 01:07:26 -0400 Hi Brian, It looks to me that Rule 24(g)(i) of USCG Navigation Rules would apply to submersibles.? See https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/? pageName=navRulesContent The rule is that the light must be seen from a distance of at least 3 miles.? So height would be determined by line-of-sight between you and whatever vessel might be around to observe you.? The higher the target vessel observation deck, the lower your light needs to be.? Assuming the target is a kayak with passenger eyeball height at 3-feet (sitting position), you would need your light to be one-foot high above the water.? Depending upon the buoyancy of your submarine you may not need a mast at all.? See http://www.calculatoredge.com/ electronics/lineofsight.htm Jon On 7/23/2017 12:19 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high !?? I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize .? ? ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 28 17:40:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:40:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question about Ellip-BPW.xls References: <541722327.1977450.1501278058420.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <541722327.1977450.1501278058420@mail.yahoo.com> On the psubs website in design tools section is Ellip-BPW.xls. Under Volume(gals) is that value what would fill the open area if it were turned like a bowel and filled with water ? Pete From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 28 19:59:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:59:25 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Question about Ellip-BPW.xls In-Reply-To: <541722327.1977450.1501278058420@mail.yahoo.com> References: <541722327.1977450.1501278058420.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <541722327.1977450.1501278058420@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <36ac0bf0-af70-cef9-2524-8bb16ef65e64@psubs.org> Yes, exactly. You can convert gallons to cu ft if you need to. Jon On 7/28/2017 5:40 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > On the psubs website in design tools section is Ellip-BPW.xls. Under Volume(gals) is that value what would fill the open area if it were turned like a bowel and filled with water ? > > Pete > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 30 15:34:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 12:34:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Nemo Power tools Message-ID: <20170730123431.86135AEF@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 30 16:23:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:23:25 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Islamorada dive Message-ID: Cliff, would be interested in seeing any videos of diving in Islamorada. Also reports on how you found the temperature, & how the boat performed. You did mention the possibility of being towed underwater to the dive site. We found it very shallow for quite some distance out on the Atlantic side. I was concerned Snoopy was going to hit bottom when we towed Alec & Steve out ( with their 9 ice packs). Maybe attach a couple of large floatation devices on either side so you can travel out with the hatch open, & get a support person to jump in & detach them. Hope you make it out to some clear, deep water! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 30 16:27:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (glen brown via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 22:27:50 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Islamorada dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds exciting. Glen On 30 Jul 2017 22:24, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > would be interested in seeing any videos of diving in Islamorada. > Also reports on how you found the temperature, & how the boat > performed. > You did mention the possibility of being towed underwater to the dive > site. We found it very shallow for quite some distance out on the > Atlantic side. I was concerned Snoopy was going to hit bottom when > we towed Alec & Steve out ( with their 9 ice packs). Maybe attach a > couple of large floatation devices on either side so you can travel out > with the hatch open, & get a support person to jump in & detach them. > Hope you make it out to some clear, deep water! > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 30 19:07:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:07:36 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Islamorada dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A0E66D1-D668-4E75-BD1D-5042BC51116E@yahoo.com> Glen, haven't heard from you for a while. How's the K350 build getting on! Was having dinner with at least 10 South Africans last night. Big S.A. community in Auckland! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 31/07/2017, at 8:27 AM, glen brown via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Sounds exciting. > Glen > >> On 30 Jul 2017 22:24, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> Cliff, >> would be interested in seeing any videos of diving in Islamorada. >> Also reports on how you found the temperature, & how the boat >> performed. >> You did mention the possibility of being towed underwater to the dive >> site. We found it very shallow for quite some distance out on the >> Atlantic side. I was concerned Snoopy was going to hit bottom when >> we towed Alec & Steve out ( with their 9 ice packs). Maybe attach a >> couple of large floatation devices on either side so you can travel out >> with the hatch open, & get a support person to jump in & detach them. >> Hope you make it out to some clear, deep water! >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: