[PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform

Wed Jul 12 15:57:50 EDT 2017

Scott,
I met Will at the Underwater Intervention Convention 3 years ago,
& he told me that authorities were pressing him for a set of rules /
guidelines for managing personal submersibles. 
He was resisting having to do this, & it looks like  he has finally been
pushed in to it. A number of Psubbers know him & I am sure he would
be willing to put any draft regulations to the group for discussion if
we request that. Is Vance part of this board?
Alan

Sent from my iPad

> On 13/07/2017, at 5:55 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> 
> Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates. Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an "Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation, would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The safety officer from my company  (Pisces VI) is on the board as well as alot of very smart under water professionals.
> 
> Thank you,
> Scott Waters
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Smartphone
> 
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Date: 7/12/17 12:30 PM (GMT-06:00)
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
> 
> I have been following the conversation about the bathtub sub with definite interest. Thank you Juergen for sharing it. I definitely agree with the though raised by River and Steve that we may have a moral or ethical obligation to at least try to inform them about the serious danger of their boat.  Ultimately I agree with Ludwig, Hank and Carsten that they really won't care about safety standards. As Hank suggested it does appear to be sort of a "joke" to them. I think that is accurate. 
> 
> In regards to "informing" people interested in this hobby, I definitely think we would be the right group to do it.
> 
> I am currently the national chairman of the Federation of State medical Boards. We are a national organization created by individual state medical boards to create a forum to ensure and promote patient safety through appropriate licensing and discipline of United States physicians.
> 
> In fact we have no specific authority granted by government or otherwise but we have 112 year history of creating work groups, coming to consensus and then creating "best practices" documents that gets distributed back to our state medical Boards. 
> 
> Very often, the documents that we create become individual state law without any changes but again this is only because the people receiving them respect the work that is done by the group and understand that lots of really informed people have come together to create something that protects patients.  
> 
> In this regard, PSUBS would be the ideal group to come up with guidelines for safety when building. 
> If nothing else, it may help us down the road if regulation is considered to say "we don't need government. We already have a policy".  Or if a policy IS enforced by government, maybe our policy could be considered and adopted which would at least allow us to control the conversation. 
> 
> All of this is really just a long way to say "yes. I think it is a good idea." 
> At least we could then point to our guidelines when we approach guys like the bathtub builders. 
> 
> Just a thought. 
> Thanks
> Greg. 
> 
>> On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> The bathtub itself is mabe not the problem. But look at the outfitting..
>>  
>> Imagine seating under a hatch, flat and made from plywood. Say 0,45 x 0,6 meter or 0,24 m2
>> Means a waterpressure of 240 Kg (500 pound) per meter or 1,44 ts at 6 meter deep.
>>  
>> Question - how many of you would like to seat under a sheet of plywood and somebody put 1,5 ts of lead bars on it?
>> In the center of the plywood a hole with a plastic pipe periskop made of material for rain drain pipes.. Never designed for any pressure.
>>  
>> I think this guys will not be intesst to build a real psub.
>> A real psub will be safe - and the video will be just shared by some 100 - 500 psubers in the world.
>> And not 100.000 of kids. I think they want to be build something looking unsafe. And the best way to do is building something unsafe.
>>  
>> Carsten      -32 years of accident free submarine operations, okay.. somethimes it was tight..-
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine
>> Datum: 2017-07-12T16:49:46+0200
>> Von: "via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> An: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> I have a feeling they will be sticking to this adventure for a while.  In the last video they had, they dove it down to 6 meters but I don't think they are planning on diving beyond 10 meters (The have it attached to a float on the surface)  I already sent them a message but I think everybody should  because since they are popular I have a feeling it's going to encourage some more people to do what they are doing.  
>> Does anybody know what the strength of those tubes are?  
>>  
>> -Ludwig
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> Sent: Wed, Jul 12, 2017 3:02 am
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine
>> 
>> Hi Ludwig,
>>  
>> When I first saw these guys in the first video, I thought the same.  When I look at the latest video, 
>> I get the feeling this is just a joke to them and they are seeking youtube subscribers.  They don't seem interested in being responsible at all, and I doubt they will listen to reason.  We just have to hope they move on to their next attention seeking adventure before they get hurt.
>> Hank
>> 
>> On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:15 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I was just going to ask you guys about these people!  
>> 
>> I assume they are not members here, but I would say it's part of our "mission" to reach out and educate them and have them join this group.  I think what they are doing is amazing and ambitious, and we should encourage what they are doing but help them make the sub safer before they go about injuring themselves and giving a bad images on personal homebuilt submersibles.   
>>  
>> Here's the link to contacting them through the website and I highly recommend everybody to contact them into joining this group so we can help them with their project.
>> http://thereallifeguys.de/kontaktformular/
>>  
>>  
>> -Ludwig
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> Sent: Tue, Jul 11, 2017 7:38 pm
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine
>> 
>> So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn).
>>  
>> Steve
>>  
>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:44 PM
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine
>>  
>> Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident)  we all get closer to being shut down.
>>  
>> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine
>>  
>>  
>> Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine.
>>  
>> A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine
>> will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep.
>>  
>> At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law:
>> Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten.
>> And this will end all our hobby for cost reason.
>>  
>> vbr Carsten
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>> Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine
>> Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200
>> Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> Hello Psubbbers
>> Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth
>> LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5
>> Eigentlich wollten wir im überfluteten Gefängnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns reißt i...
>>  
>>  
>> Best wishes
>> Juergen
>>  
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