[PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform

Fri Jul 14 10:01:17 EDT 2017

Where do they perceive a vacuum in the regulations regarding submarines? Construction standards abound, and existing regulations for small craft should apply (i.e licensing over 10 HP, etc.) Operational rules already exist in the form of the International Regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea. Surfacing / diving as a special consideration would appear to be covered by the requirement for maintaining a competent watch.

What specifically do they want to regulate that doesn't already exist?

Sean

On July 14, 2017 6:43:55 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>Jon,
>Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen.
>Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire
>to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved
>in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance!
>Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I
>declined),
>so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads
>the
>submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups
>like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been
>wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to
>avoid
>it. 
>In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is
>surfacing,
>where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps
>some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be
>in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the 
>submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use.
>In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a
>howling
>gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life
>jacket;
>so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would
>be 
>relevant.
>Alan
>
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>> On 14/07/2017, at 4:33 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
><personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I do not believe PSUBS as an organization has an ethical obligation
>to inform anyone, unsolicited, that their design/construction
>techniques are flawed.  Members who feel a personal obligation are free
>of course to contact such persons and help them individually or
>encourage them to join the group.  But "obligation" is a pretty heavy
>concept which would seem to invoke a "duty", which I think is
>unrealistic and impractical for this organization to take on.  We
>should call out bad designs within our own discussions and discourage
>anyone in our organization from following such designs, and we should
>not be afraid to speak out about bad designs when we are solicited to
>opine about them whether privately or publicly.  
>> 
>> PSUBS already has guidelines for design, construction, and operation
>of submarines for recreational use.  We have an online mechanism for
>members to contribute additions, revisions, and removal of those
>guidelines.  See PSUBS.ORG > Resources & Reference > Guidelines &
>Standards > PSUBS Guidelines.  I would love to see more people become
>more involved with this part of the business.
>> 
>> Regarding MUV MTS, you will have a difficult time convincing me that
>they are acting in the best interest of the underwater community as a
>whole.  Do you not find it strange that PSUBS, which has existed for 21
>years and undoubtedly is the largest organization representing
>recreational use submarines has never been invited to participate in
>this "safety board"?  I remember well, when PSUBS first started and
>many in the underwater industry, particularly those associated with
>manned underwater vehicles of the Marine Technology Society considered
>PSUBS a bunch of nutjobs, weekend warriors, who were going to endanger
>the entire industry because we were all idiots with no discipline. 
>Unfortunately, some in MTS have never changed their initial opinion of
>PSUBS and would like nothing more than if PSUBS just disappeared. 
>There is little in common operationally between the MTS community and
>the PSUBS community.  Their primary markets are commercial, research,
>and professional piloting; ours is personal use by individuals.  I have
>been to numerous UI conventions and the only time they talk personal
>submarines is when PSUBS goes there to present a topic on it.  The idea
>that they now seek to set rules affecting our submarines, without our
>input, is particularly distasteful to me especially since they are so
>terrified of the government setting rules upon them without their
>input.  The idea that the Coast Guard and/or government is so close to
>handcuffing the industry that we have to come up with unifying rules
>and regulations, including marking home-builts as "experimental" has
>only ever been out of the mouths of MTS.  A couple of years ago (I will
>have to track down the email) I was contacted by someone who was
>pushing the same MTS story about how the Coast Guard was one accident
>away from destroying the industry with rules and regulations, and how
>MTS was going to cure it with a unified set of rules for all
>submarines.  I was even given the name of the CG official who
>supposedly was speaking to MTS about the urgent need for such rules,
>"or else".  I contacted that CG official and quite contrary they were
>in no hurry for such rules and didn't even want to be involved with
>enforcing such rules.  My message to MTS and other industry partners is
>this, no entity is in a position to better represent the unique issues
>of submarines used for personal purposes than PSUBS.  No rules
>submitted to the CG or other government agency will be adopted without
>public input and when that occurs PSUBS will fight to protect our own
>interests, specifically that the Coast Guard adopt PSUBS rules and
>regulations for personal submarines.  And more specifically, submarines
>for personal use are NOT going to required to have "experimental"
>emblazoned upon them.  THAT, is a suggestion by some in MTS to protect
>their own business interests, not to better serve the underwater
>community.
>> 
>> Jon
>>  
>> 
>> 
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