[PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform

Sun Jul 23 21:01:03 EDT 2017

Apparently, the yellow submarine was USS Menhaden, a Tench class sub.

Just to clarify, the guy I used to work with at UBC during the 1980's used to work recovering torpedoes during the 1970's.  UBC has nothing to do with the CF Maritime Experimental Test Range in Nanoose Bay.

From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:35 PM
To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform

I used to work with a guy at the University of BC whose job it was to dive a Pisces sub to retrieve the torpedoes from the bottom off Nanoose Bay.  I thought that that job would be really interesting work, but he said it was mostly dull, only mud and the odd bottle on the bottom, and cold in the sub since there was no heater (all battery power was for the sub, not the occupants).  There was also an old O-class (I think) submarine often used as a live sonar target.  It was painted bright yellow!  No, really.

From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:20 PM
To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Divers down flag. Was Ethical obligation to inform

That's true here, too, Alan… at least in theory (and the statutes).

However, in the BC Okanagan the idiotic boaters seem to think that the divers down flag is a pylon to be raced around.

In theory, theory and practice are the same.  But in practice, they are not.

During my navy days I learned that navy submarines would launch two low level white Arial flares just before surfacing.  Several years ago there was an incident off Nanoose Bay when a USN nuke boat surfaced near a yacht and the yacht occupants went ballistic.  They thought that they were under attack.  Sad.

Tim

From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 4:19 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform

pete,

boat traffic has to stay 200 meters away from it or travel at less than 5

knots within that zone. Because the dive flag is universally known, it

makes sense to use it for submarines also.

Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 24/07/2017, at 10:14 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:

What does the dive flag mean to the surface traffic?

  _____  

From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > 
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform

Alan, David,    

                             What I had in mind was a long fiberglass pole that lies horizontal along the length of the sub.  Then before surfacing a catch gets released and cable on a drum pulls the pole into an upright position and holds it there.   It would have a flashing light on the top, probably just battery powered within the unit.   Then you would manually return it to it's horizontal position after surfacing.  I was thinking of a spring loaded version put I think that might have problems.

The guy I was talking to said the Coast Guard wanted the pole 16 feet high !   I think that is a bit much 10 feet would be about the max I can see, other wise it would be hard to stabilize .  

Brian

--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>  wrote:

From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 20:00:32 +1200

David,

I decided to go with an inflatable buoy, because if you surface under a hard

buoy & try & retract it on to the boat it will smash itself & the boat.

It is a reasonably complicated arrangement so I wont go in to detail.

Cheers Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 23/07/2017, at 4:50 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:

Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna. Recoil is via an electric motor.

David Colombo 

On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:

Brian,
I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that
is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency
buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft with the
sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't do, after
all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable.
Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete.
Alan

Sent from my iPad
rt
> On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
>
> Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing.  I heard through another person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan).  The height of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably high, but no matter.  I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for such a light.  I would like to hit the ground running and have something like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel.  Aside from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal vessel requires,  Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number.
>
> Brian
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>  wrote:
>
> From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
> To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200
>
> Many thanks Carsten,
>
> Makes sense.
> Regards,
> Hugh
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org> ] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de <mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de>  via Personal_Submersibles
> Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
>
> Hugh the rules are not public.
> But I can answer specific question if you have.
>
> The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here some samples (I use google auto translator):
>
> 13.00 Bilge pump
> At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump, which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure.
>
> 14.00 Energy
> For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured by a permanent installation.
>
> 15.00 Emergency lighting
> Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and suspension hooks have proven themselves.
>
> 16.00 Operating instructions
> The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation.
>
> and so on..
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
> Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200
> Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
> An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
>
> Hi Carsten,
>
> Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places.  That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way.
> Many thanks for the clarification.  I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds.  As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner.  Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules?
> Best regards,
> Hugh
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org> ] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de <mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de>  via Personal_Submersibles
> Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
>
> Hugh,
>
> First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU.
> The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this.
>
> The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill.
> But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants.
>
> The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers.
>
> The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-)
>
> The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates.
> And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it.
>
> I will give you an example:
>
> DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it.
> But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on.
>
> SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test.
> They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ.
>
> So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder.
> He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock.
> The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine.
>
> The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost.
> The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy.
> Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do.
> The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not.
> If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules.
>
> A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires.
>
> The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation.
>
> A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate.
> A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife)
>
> The SL certifiate is  a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not  a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification.
>
> At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose.
> The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident.
> But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater..
>
> IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks.
> You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself.
> But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money
> - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time.
>
> Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub.
> Give me a call if you find one.
>
> Vbr Carsten    -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate.
> But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6.
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
> Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200
> Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
> An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
>
> Jon,
> I think the best is a self regulating amateur body.  There could be more than one category possibly,  Retro approved and full compliance.  ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe.
> In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way.
> The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,.  From what I remember from our discussion he required
> :-
> Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these)
> Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done)
> Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures.
> Witnessed test dive.
> (Carsten can correct all this)
>
> Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft  will have their own set of regs.  A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising.
> Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted.  I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten.  Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible.
>
> Just my pennies worth.
> Hugh
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org> ]
> On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles
> Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
>
> Jon,
> they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany!
> Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law!
> Cheers Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Alan,
>>
>> Good point regarding the taxi comparison.  However, regarding
>> commercial
> fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use.  An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use.  What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal"
> submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built.
> What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that?  Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental".
>>
>> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples,
>> it
> would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote:
>>> Thanks for searching that out Jon,
>>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial
>>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to
>>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle"
>>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a
>>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel
>>> written
> on it? I doubt it.
>>>   I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles
>>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in.  From what I
>>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy
>>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in
>>> limiting
> any rules for personal submersibles.
>>> Regards Alan
>>
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