[PSUBS-MAILIST] Meet George
hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Sun Jun 25 06:58:37 EDT 2017
Pete,I didn't notice the drawings you sent, glad Alan mentioned them. That looks real robust, I love the deck! I think you would like more ports in the CT, I didn't realize the difference until I got Gamma with 8 ports. It really makes a huge difference. I almost tried the twin in line thruster idea, but chickened out, thinking it might be a problem, mind you, you might have them raked a bit and it doesn't show in the picture. I assume the aft tilted down cone is a MBT and the the two front tanks the same. What are the aft top tanks? HP air? Nice design, it is real practical to construct. It might be nice to get those HP bottles down lower, for balance, every bit helps. Hank
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 1:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Nice CAD work Pete,
I am not sure about your thruster placements. I like the idea of
redundant horizontal thrusters but not sure about having them
in line. Carl Stanley's Idabel has 4 horizontal thrusters, but has them
in two sets side by side. Also the kort nozzles of the vertical thrusters seem to
be in the way of the thrust from the horizontal thrusters.
Cheers Alan
Sent from my iPad
> On 25/06/2017, at 2:52 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 6/24/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.
> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>ement
> Date: Saturday, June 24, 2017, 8:11 e idea
> the
>
> Pete,A
> lottery win would help ,lol. I will not rotate the sphere,
> I will launch it with me in it, in the correct orientation.
> I will go old school with the batteries and use oil
> filled lead acid, for simplicity and low cost. Personally
> if I were building a K350 variant, I would not bother with
> pods, I would have AGM internal batteries. Again for cost,
> simplicity and speed of construction, increase the hull
> diameter to 42 inches while your at it. Emile has the
> perfect set up, I would copy that.Hank
>
>
> On Saturday, June 24, 2017 7:00 PM, Pete
> Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> WOW !
> Are you going to rotate the sphere to have the port ( I
> assume you mean View Port) where you want it ?
> You
> seem to have cracked quite a few nuts that challenged
> Psubbers.
> What
> about
>
> Thru
> hulls for control, power, life support, comm, etc.
> Battery
> banks ( I'm especially interested in this. I am working
> on a design of a K350 variant and I don't the like
> battery pods
>
> Thrusters
> and compansation.
> I
> hope you win the lottery some day.
>
>
>
>
> From: hank pronk via
> Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
> To: Personal
> Submersibles General Discussion
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
> Sent:
> Saturday, June 24, 2017 6:38 PM
> Subject: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.
>
>
> Hi Pete,Elementary
> 12,000 will have a 48 inch by 3.25 in thick occupant
> sphere 516-70 steel, and it will weigh 8,000 lbs. The port
> and hatch will be combined, and the hatch land will be a
> bolt in place part. I will machine the conical opening
> with my own flange facing machine. If I achieve the
> accuracy with the land that I have with Elementary, 3000
> that will be great, if not then I will have it re-machined
> professionally. The new sphere will go in place of the
> sphere in Elementary 3000 and all the parts will be swapped
> out. That is the plan Hank
>
>
>
> On Saturday, June 24,
> 2017 2:22 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hank, What are your preliminary hull specs for
> Elementary 12000?
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 6/23/17, Alan via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.
> To: "Personal Submersibles General
> Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Date: Friday, June 23,
> 2017, 8:44 PM
>
> Hank,yes the gas tanks
> may
> be expensive. You
> could possibly make
> a
> series of boxes for the petrol. Make a box out
> ofmarine
> ply, seal it with epoxy,
> drill a couple of holes in the
> bottom & glue ina flexible membrane
> across the inside bottom
> of the box. Then seal a top
> on with a
>
> valve for filling. Just brain storming here!Alan
>
> Sent
> from my iPad
> On
> 24/06/2017, at 1:12 PM,
> hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
>
> Alan,Those
> look amazing and
> expensive. I am not saying it is not
> doable, I am just
> very nervous due to lack of
> knowledge. I am sure with proper engineering
> and safety
> grounding
> it can be safe. I would go with CNG type 4 tanks
> before I did gasoline.
> I can buy one brand new tank that
> will provide all the
> buoyancy I need for 2,500-3,000 or I
> can buy a used tank that
> is current until 2030 for 1,100
> dollars plus shipping. Also the CNG tank only
> adds 105 lbs
> plus
> compressed air weight to the dry weight, making the
> sub easy to lift onto the
> deck of my proposed landing
> craft.Hank
>
>
>
> On Friday, June
> 23,
> 2017 6:32 PM, Alan
> James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> Hank,I had
> another quick Google on
> collapsible petrol
>
> containers.There
> is a
> huge variety, with manufacturers offering tailor
> made products.Here
> is a news item about them
> using them on the jetpack. They
> have a collapsible
> fuel tank strapped to their
> back.http://www.atlinc.com/newsreleases.htmlAlan
>
>
>
>
>
> From: hank pronk
> via
>
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
> Sent: Saturday, June
> 24, 2017 11:16 AM
> Subject: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic
> foam.
>
>
> Alan,I am
> still considering that
> idea but Sean said NO ;-( It is
> cheap and I would have
> lots of exta buoyancy. This is good
> for Elementary 3,000 but
> not Elementary 12,000. I want to
> explore all ideas, and
> will end up where I started with
> spheres in epoxy ;-)Hank
>
>
> On Friday, June 23,
> 2017 5:01 PM,
> Alan via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> Hank,what happened to
> your
> idea of using
> composite tanks pressurised with
> air?As long
>
> as they were in test & you had multiple tanks, with a
> drop weight thatcould
> compensate for
> one
> failing, that would be ok wouldn't it?If you were
> filling to
> 3000psi,
> they wouldn't see external pressure till
> 6000ft.You
> could always test the
> idea at Nuytco.Alan
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> On
> 24/06/2017, at 10:17 AM,
> hank pronk via
>
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
>
> LOL,I
> checked on
> the compressibility and it will compress
> .5 percent, per 1,000 psi
> same as hydraulic oil. I have
> weighed two types of
> Olive oil today and the specific
> gravity is actually .86g\cc so it is to
> heavy. I
> can't
> seem to find the light weight stuff .703g\cc
> if you buy in bulk it
> is 5 dollars per kg so
> far.I am
>
> not even sure I can drive down the road with that much
> gas,
> mind you it would
> be hidden behind panels on the sub. Then
> there is the expansion
> while it sits in the hot weather.
> If the tree huggers heard about it they would
> crap in
> their pants
> and chase me down, luckily my truck can out run
> a VW van lol.Hank
>
>
> On Friday, June
> 23,
> 2017 3:53 PM, Alan
> via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> Hank,is that extra
> virgin or
> cold
> pressed? I wonder if it compressesunder
> pressure.Olive oil would
> be an
> expensive way to
> go. Whereas petrol costsnothing if you re-use
> it. Not
> sure why you fear
> gasoline; they let women pump it in to
> their cars
> at gas stations!Cheers
> Alan
> Sent
> from my iPad
> On
> 24/06/2017, at 4:21 AM,
> hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
>
> Alec,Thank
> you, I should have bought
> those instead of the 11 inch,
> grrrr. I could go with those floats, but I do
> hope to
> build the next
> generation Elementary sub. I want to
> figure out the whole foam
> thing and possibly carry it over
> to the next sub. Alan has really intrigued me
> with using
> gasoline, I
> am terrified of that idea but it has caused me
> to stumble onto another
> liquid. In searching I have
> discovered that Olive Oil is even lighter
> than gasoline, and
> obviously safer for me and the
> environment. I have no idea yet if it is an
> option, I only
>
> stumbled onto it this morning. If anyone knows of a
> bad
> reason to use
> Olive Oil, please let me know. Olive Oil is
> .703 g\cc and I can
> put it into plastic containers that
> are .93 g\cc Hank
>
>
> On Friday, June
> 23,
> 2017 9:28 AM, Alec
> Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> Actually there are
> trawl floats rated to
> 1800m. That should have you covered
> Hank! Check out #629
> below.
> http://trawlworks.com/floats.html
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017
> at
> 1:21 PM, Brian Cox
> via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
> These guys have
> 14"
> spherical
> buoys rated to 800 meters - $120.00 with
> a positive buoyancy of 39
> # they are not syntactic.
> The syntactics start at 30" in dia
>
> http://www.mooringsystems.com/
>
> buoyancy.htm Brian
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org wrote:
>
> From: james
> cottrell via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To:
> Personal Submersibles
> General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Subject: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic
> foam.
> Date:
> Mon, 19 Jun 2017 16:52:56
> +0000 (UTC)
>
>
> Deep sea glass floats
> are rated for 10,000
>
> psi
> http://teledynebenthos.com/
>
> product/flotation_instrument_ housings/flotation-glass-
> spheres
>
> Greg
>
>
> From: Alan via
> Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal
> Submersibles General
> Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Sent: Monday, June
> 12,
> 2017 6:18 PM
> Subject: Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic
> foam.
>
>
> Hank,if you
> are getting 3lb of
> floatation per gallon then you need
> 184gallons of gas. 184 x
> 3 = 552 ( near
>
> enough).Cheers Alan
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> On 13/06/2017, at 9:50
> AM, hank pronk via
>
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
> Alan,I need 550 lbs
> flotation and one imp
> gallon of water is 10 lbs and gas is 7 lbs that
> gives me 3
> lbs
> buoyancy per imp gallon that means I need 1650 gallons
> of gas.Hank
>
>
> On Monday, June
> 12,
> 2017 3:43 PM, Alan
> via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hank,are you sure
> that's
> right!That
> would give 1900kg of floatation (
> nearly 2 ton)That is based on gasoline being
> .71
> of the weight of
> water. So every litreof gas
> gives you about 290 grams of
> floatation. Metric
>
> system is much easier for calculating these
> things.Cheers Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
> On 12/06/2017, at 11:42
> PM, hank pronk via
>
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
> Alan,Those
> are nice, I can see other
> uses for them. If I use
> gasoline, I would need about 1,750 imperial
> gallons for
>
> Elementary. I was mistaken about the liquid
> paraffin,
> gasoline is
> better.
>
> On Sunday, June
> 11,
> 2017 11:36 PM,
> Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
>
> Maybe
> something like this
> collapsable plastic fuel
> tank, inside a protective fibreglass housing,
> or
> a grate
> arrangement. https://www.bdoutdoors.com/
>
> atl-fuel-bladder-extra/Alan
> Sent from my iPad
> On 12/06/2017, at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via
> Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
> Alan,Yes I
> have, it is very simple
> and effective. There are of coarse
> some hazardous
> logistical problems not to
> mention environmental concerns. I would opt
> for
> diesel fuel to
> reduce the fire hazard. Any time you have
> plastic and gas it is
> dangerous. Last week I did a barge
> job replacing dock
> piles. When I walked up and down the
> plastic dock floats,
> every time I touched the steel piles I
> got a spark. Actually
> Liquid paraffin is even better at
> .8g\ccHank
>
> On
> Sunday, June 11,
> 2017
> 5:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hank,have you looked at
> using
> gasoline?More
> volume required for the same
> floatation as syntactic foam,but apart from
> the
> holding tanks it
> would cost you nothing, as
> youcould use it after the dive. If you
> designed
> right you
> could fill the tanksat your
> destination.Alan
>
> Sent from
> my iPad
> On 12/06/2017,
> at 6:03 AM, hank pronk via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
> Greg,that sounds good,
> I would love to find a
> more cost effective foam. I still
> want to build one more
> sub that goes much deeper, but the
> foam cost is not
> manageable. I estimate I can build a
> Titanic capable sub
> for 100,000 and 80,000 of that is
> foam. ;-(Hank
>
> On Sunday, June
> 11,
> 2017 8:29 AM, hank
> pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
>
> Greg,There has to be
> good reason to make foam by
> other means than standard practices. Cost
> would be the
> biggest
> reason, and using wax will probably work, but is
> there a saving? Using
> wax means you have to use a
> deeper rated sphere to offset the loss of
> reinforcement
> provided
> by the resin. I have no idea what the cost
> difference would be.
> Maybe the cost is still much
> better. When I look at Cliff's report, the
> resin is
> not the
> expensive part. Perhaps the direction should be,
> to look for a replacement
> for the spheres. In Cliff's
> report it shows the resin triples the
> sphere's
>
> performance. That implies that the true strength comes
> from the resin. Maybe a
> sawdust resin or a styrofoam
> granule resin is worth looking at also. Maybe
> it is a
> simple as air
> entrained resin?Fun to
>
> think about anyways.Hank
>
> On
> Sunday, June 11,
> 2017
> 6:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Scott,Thanks
> for the offer, but I need
> foam for 3,000
>
> feet.Hank
>
> On Saturday, June
> 10,
> 2017 9:03 PM,
> Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hank,
> Hola from Costa Rica!
> Depends on if they are
> glass or
> carbon fiber
> spheres and what size they are. They are all
> pretty durable. We are
> actually cutting up the foam on
> Pisces and reattaching it to get the shapes we
> want.
> I do have a
> ton of syntactic foam
> that is cert to 400m that I'd sell
> you for super cheap. Like
> all of it for $200
>
> Thanks,Scott
> Waters
>
>
> Sent from my
> U.S. Cellular®
> Smartphone
> --------
> Original message
>
> --------From: hank pronk via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> Date: 6/10/17
> 12:38 PM (GMT-06:00)
>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> Subject:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic
> foam.
> I
> have an idea, but not sure if it will work.
> My idea is to fill a
> neutrally buoyant container with macro
> and micro spheres.
> After the container is as full as
> possible, then fill with an environmentally
> friendly oil.
> This
> would be more buoyant than using a resin and less
> complicated and
> cheaper. My concern is, how well will the
> spheres stand up against
> breaking from being in contact with
> the other spheres and the
> container. Are these spheres
> delicate?
>
> Hank______________________________
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