From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Nov 1 14:34:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 18:34:36 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] batteries In-Reply-To: References: <9310DE0B-D779-4508-AF71-284815F5B8CF@yahoo.com> <988495230.8450609.1509445514417@mail.yahoo.com> <391133079.8493607.1509450903936@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, Yes, the standard Min kota controller has reverse. Its just a potentiometer on a knob. I went for 24v min kota rip tide 80's. Wish I had gone for the 101's to be honest. I have the aft thruster rigged with the controller at the side of the seat, so I set the power and trundle off. I tend to use the aft thruster for surface driving or slow seabed cruising, so its ok where it is. Then I use the side thrusters while submerged for manouvering. Works ok for me. The pots on the controllers are on a ribbon cable. I didn't dare cut them to extend to anything more useful, although I suspect it would work. To be honest, that's why I changed the side thrusters to simple on\off relays. The pots were to complicated to move. Got a couple of links here on my site. regards James This was how I had it originally. Was awkward to use side thrusters. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page19613.htm Main power panel. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page19348.htm On 31/10/2017, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > James, > > I didn't realize that the Minn-Kota controllers had a reverse setting? > Rick > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 3:39 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I have continuous duty ones at a suitable current rating. Cant >> remember off hand. But I don't have the reversing because I can >> rotate the side motors for reverse. So I just have 1 relay per motor. >> Super simple. >> >> Also have the standard minn kota controller on the rear thruster. >> which allows reverse and speed control. All 3 items all fit into one >> box with a cooling fan for good measure. >> >> Sorry, cant recommend anything other than the simple setup I have. >> >> >> On 31 October 2017 at 11:55, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> > Hi James, >> > I am using continues duty relays and it takes 4 relays per motor. On >> > my >> > vertical thrusters I am using reversing relays (single relay) but they >> are >> > not continues duty, witch is okay. I want to simplify by using >> > reversing >> > relays (continuous duty) on the main motors. I thought maybe you >> > already >> > have that and could recommend what works. >> > Hank >> > >> > On Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 5:14:50 AM MDT, James Frankland via >> > Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > >> > >> > Hi Hank, >> > >> > I cant remember off the top of my head now. I just had a quick search >> > and I cant find them. They are just standard high current 24v pots of >> > some sort. >> > >> > I seem to remember they were similar to yours. Or some that you had >> used. >> > >> > James >> > >> > On 31 October 2017 at 10:25, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> > wrote: >> >> Hi James, >> >> What type of relays are you using? >> >> Hank >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 3:10:27 AM MDT, James Frankland via >> >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi rick, >> >> I'm here. What do you want to know? I'm using minn Kota rip tide >> >> 80's >> at >> >> 24v. 2x banks of 4 agm's. These are wired in 2 pairs of batteries in >> >> series >> >> with both pairs connected to the main terminals. I have a standard >> heavy >> >> switch so I can use each bank separately or both together. I used >> >> heavy >> >> tinned marine cable. Can't remember the thickness. >> >> >> >> I find my motors a little underpowered, but other than that it seems >> fine. >> >> >> >> Aft thruster has the minn Kota controller, I originally had those on >> >> the >> >> sides but found it a pain, so I changed those to have just on/off >> relays. >> >> Much better. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> James >> >> >> >> On Monday, 30 October 2017, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Alan >> >> Yes there are 2 separate pods each containing 4 each 12v batteries , 3 >> for >> >> the 36v for thrusters & 1 for the onboard systems. >> >> DAN H built his per plans and specs and is running his stern thruster >> off >> >> one side & and sides off the other side but he is not running >> Minn-Kotas. >> >> I am hopping James Franklin will chime in as he is using the >> >> Minn-Kotas >> in >> >> his. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 8:13 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Rick, >> >> I am not familiar with the k350 battery set up, but are there two >> >> battery pods with 3 x 12V batteries in each pod? >> >> What are the other k350 owners doing? Do they run the 3 thrusters >> >> off the 2 battery pods similtaneously i.e. connect both pods in >> parallel. >> >> If you did this then you would only be drawing half the amps off each >> >> battery pod, than you would be if you were using one. >> >> I wonder what traction batteries mobility scooters use? >> >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> >>> On 29/10/2017, at 9:27 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I am trying to size my wire for the 36v side from where the power >> >>> comes >> >>> into the sub to selector switch to hot buss bar and was wondering if >> that >> >>> was something that someone could answer. Also I was told by Minn-Kota >> >>> that >> >>> they recommend group 27 marine batteries. >> >>> I have a couple of deep cycle (marine batteries) on my boat and they >> are >> >>> 550 cca and 125 amps reserve capacity. >> >>> My plan is to run all three Minn-kota thrusters off of one side at a >> time >> >>> and their max draw is 46 amps max so there is 138 amps if all three >> >>> thrusters are wide open. I doubt I would ever have all three maxed >> >>> for >> >>> more >> >>> than short spurts but want to be repaired for the worst case scenario >> >>> like >> >>> if I am bucking a strong current. >> >>> I also will be running 6 outside LED lights off the same bank and >> though >> >>> I >> >>> can dim them and selectively use them, all on at max would be about a >> >>> 16.6 >> >>> amp draw as well. Now most of the time I will be using the thrusters >> >>> at >> >>> minimal draw and not all 3 at the same time and the 6 lights will >> >>> probably >> >>> never all be on at the same time. >> >>> If everything was wide open, I would be pulling about 155 amps from a >> >>> bank >> >>> that has a reserve capacity of 125 so it would deplete the bank >> >>> rather >> >>> fast >> >>> and may even damage the batteries due to a quick drain? So,,, first >> >>> question...would 2 OTT wire be sufficient from battery source to bus >> bar >> >>> as >> >>> long as I am not running full tilt on everythig and second... since I >> >>> have >> >>> to stick with a lead acid system due to design, can I get a group 27 >> >>> battery >> >>> that can deliver much more than the 125 amps I have on my boat? >> >>> I also have the option of putting the battery selector switch on both >> >>> banks if I have to but would rather deplete one bank at a time if >> >>> can. >> >>> Comments appreciated. >> >>> Rick >> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 2 14:30:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 18:30:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new gears References: <110503463.1580898.1509647448063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <110503463.1580898.1509647448063@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Ian,The gears you made for me arrived, and they are amazing! ?I had no idea the fine detail capability. ?The timing is perfect also, as I have just finished the gripper and need the wrist gears to complete the connection. ?I might have it put together today for a test.Thank you againHank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 2 15:06:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 12:06:16 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new gears Message-ID: <220196530.10316.1509649576216@wamui-mouse.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 2 15:26:09 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 08:26:09 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new gears In-Reply-To: <220196530.10316.1509649576216@wamui-mouse.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <220196530.10316.1509649576216@wamui-mouse.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <845E2172-3DE9-4641-A154-5C76DAB1C3A5@yahoo.com> Well done Ian. I have posted this before. It is of 3d propeller testing done here in Auckland. Their preference in the end was polycarbonate! http://www.3ders.org/articles/20160302-wooden-3d-printed-boat-prop-makers-put-filaments-to-the-test-with-surprising-results.html Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 3/11/2017, at 8:06 AM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Great! Glad they got there safely. > > Let me know if they work. If so I'll print up a slightly higher quality set (probably a couple, for spares and destructive testing). I'll also look into printing a set in nylon. > > You're most welcome. Thanks for all the videos. > > Cheers! > Ian. > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Nov 2, 2017 11:30 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new gears > > Hi Ian, > The gears you made for me arrived, and they are amazing! I had no idea the fine detail capability. The timing is perfect also, as I have just finished the gripper and need the wrist gears to complete the connection. I might have it put together today for a test. > Thank you again > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 2 21:27:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 01:27:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new gears In-Reply-To: <220196530.10316.1509649576216@wamui-mouse.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <220196530.10316.1509649576216@wamui-mouse.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1390402376.1802262.1509672467596@mail.yahoo.com> Ian,The gears seem pretty tough, and I am sure they will stand up due ?to the thickness. ?They machine nicely also, I was worried when I put the gear in the lathe chuck, but is was fine. ?I machined the bore out so it would slide nicely. ?Pitty I don't have the wrist drive motor yet ;-( ?Hank On Thursday, November 2, 2017, 1:06:29 PM MDT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv3031387229 #yiv3031387229 -- DIV {margin:0px;}#yiv3031387229 Great!? Glad they got there safely. Let me know if they work.? If so I'll print up a slightly higher quality set (probably a couple, for spares and destructive testing).? I'll also look into printing a set in nylon. You're most welcome.? Thanks for all the videos. Cheers! ?Ian. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Nov 2, 2017 11:30 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] new gears Hi Ian,The gears you made for me arrived, and they are amazing! ?I had no idea the fine detail capability. ?The timing is perfect also, as I have just finished the gripper and need the wrist gears to complete the connection. ?I might have it put together today for a test.Thank you againHank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 17:31:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 14:31:14 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch Message-ID: <20171103143114.30FEE765@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 17:56:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 14:56:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch In-Reply-To: <20171103143114.30FEE765@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20171103143114.30FEE765@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: Congrats Brian. First test out of the way and first contact with authorities. Next time invite them down to help launch and be support crew. On Nov 3, 2017 2:32 PM, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > Launched my sub yesterday ! I launched at Channel Islands > Harbor in Oxnard, CA . We have our sailboat docked there so what I did was > moved our boat over to the guest slips because the guest slips are right > next to the launch ramp, that way I didn't have go to far to motor the > sub over next to the sailboat. My plan was to keep it overnight and play > around with it for a couple of days. So we launched it from the boat ramp > and it floated off really nicely, just like launching a regular boat. I > kept it there at the ramp dock for a little bit just to check the stability > and all. So when all seemed fine I got in turned on the juice and engaged > the motors. Everything ran great, I only ran the motors at maybe half > speed and cruised over the guest dock, the thing turns like a battleship, > kind of a delay from when I begin turning the pods. Anyway got it over > the to the dock no problem, then I did a couple of U turns just to see how > tight of turns I could make. I could make reasonable turns much like a > sailboat under power . So my plan was to sink it all the way down to the > hatch just to see where I was at . The thing is a little ass heavy because > I have most of my ballast weight concentrated way back in the bottom of the > ferro-cement hull, so I think I need to distribute that weight out more > towards the front to even things out. I bled out quite a bit of air from > my main ballast but the nose was still up quite a ways compared to the > back . So around this time the Harbor Patrol guy showed up , he turned out > to be a real prick. He was desperately trying to find something illegal > about having a sub in the harbor. So his first thing was , oh you can't be > a hazard to navigation and submerging sub is definitely a hazard. I > informed him I wasn't planning on submerging in the harbor , don't worry. > So then he was literally flipping through pages of regulations trying to > find something. Anyway I told him I just wanted to keep it over night next > to my sailboat and do some things to it. So then his deal was oh well you > have to physically drive the sub down to the harbor patrol office and get > the permit, so I said ok fine no problem ( chance to do some testing !) . > Then he gets on the phone talking to the harbor master bla bla bla. so > then he decides he better call the Coast Guard. so then the Coast Guard > comes over, a whole boat load of them. They started out pretty serious but > then they became really intrigued with the sub and where asking about it. > Well it turned into a love fest with the Coast Guard they were really > getting into the whole submarine thing. I let one cute little Coasty girl > go inside and check things out. Meanwhile the Harbor Patrol guy wasn't > happy that Coast Guard was liking my sub. So finally the Harbor Patrol guy > decides that since my sub could not bump up against the dock and my side > rails were actually bumping the foam underneath the dock rail that my sub > was going to damage the dock and so I couldn't dock it over night. So I > said whatever fine , I'll haul it out. My hauler friend had to come back > down from Ojai ( a bout an hour away). So he came back down, I then drove > the sub back over to the launch ramp ( which was good since everybody got > to see it move around) and then we retrieve it . Quite a day! learn a > lot as far as what I need to still with the sub. > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 18:30:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 11:30:28 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch In-Reply-To: References: <20171103143114.30FEE765@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: Thanks Brian, pity you couldn't have had a go at submerging! I launched my sub at least 3 times & rebuilt my ballast tanks before I went under. On the last attempt I took it to the local boat ramp where I found about 30 young school kids in P class yachts. I was turning to go home when an adult chased after me saying they were just on lunch break & they would provide support with their inflatables! I dived for 30 minutes & returned to the applause of all the kids & support crew. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 4/11/2017, at 10:56 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Congrats Brian. First test out of the way and first contact with authorities. Next time invite them down to help launch and be support crew. > >> On Nov 3, 2017 2:32 PM, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> Hi All, >> Launched my sub yesterday ! I launched at Channel Islands Harbor in Oxnard, CA . We have our sailboat docked there so what I did was moved our boat over to the guest slips because the guest slips are right next to the launch ramp, that way I didn't have go to far to motor the sub over next to the sailboat. My plan was to keep it overnight and play around with it for a couple of days. So we launched it from the boat ramp and it floated off really nicely, just like launching a regular boat. I kept it there at the ramp dock for a little bit just to check the stability and all. So when all seemed fine I got in turned on the juice and engaged the motors. Everything ran great, I only ran the motors at maybe half speed and cruised over the guest dock, the thing turns like a battleship, kind of a delay from when I begin turning the pods. Anyway got it over the to the dock no problem, then I did a couple of U turns just to see how tight of turns I could make. I could make reasonable turns much like a sailboat under power . So my plan was to sink it all the way down to the hatch just to see where I was at . The thing is a little ass heavy because I have most of my ballast weight concentrated way back in the bottom of the ferro-cement hull, so I think I need to distribute that weight out more towards the front to even things out. I bled out quite a bit of air from my main ballast but the nose was still up quite a ways compared to the back . So around this time the Harbor Patrol guy showed up , he turned out to be a real prick. He was desperately trying to find something illegal about having a sub in the harbor. So his first thing was , oh you can't be a hazard to navigation and submerging sub is definitely a hazard. I informed him I wasn't planning on submerging in the harbor , don't worry. So then he was literally flipping through pages of regulations trying to find something. Anyway I told him I just wanted to keep it over night next to my sailboat and do some things to it. So then his deal was oh well you have to physically drive the sub down to the harbor patrol office and get the permit, so I said ok fine no problem ( chance to do some testing !) . Then he gets on the phone talking to the harbor master bla bla bla. so then he decides he better call the Coast Guard. so then the Coast Guard comes over, a whole boat load of them. They started out pretty serious but then they became really intrigued with the sub and where asking about it. Well it turned into a love fest with the Coast Guard they were really getting into the whole submarine thing. I let one cute little Coasty girl go inside and check things out. Meanwhile the Harbor Patrol guy wasn't happy that Coast Guard was liking my sub. So finally the Harbor Patrol guy decides that since my sub could not bump up against the dock and my side rails were actually bumping the foam underneath the dock rail that my sub was going to damage the dock and so I couldn't dock it over night. So I said whatever fine , I'll haul it out. My hauler friend had to come back down from Ojai ( a bout an hour away). So he came back down, I then drove the sub back over to the launch ramp ( which was good since everybody got to see it move around) and then we retrieve it . Quite a day! learn a lot as far as what I need to still with the sub. >> >> Brian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 18:36:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:36:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch In-Reply-To: References: <20171103143114.30FEE765@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1781086723.2489027.1509748596716@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Well done! ?Pity some people are jerks.I would hold off on moving weight around, it could be off level at the surface but fine submerged. ?Trust your math.Hank On Friday, November 3, 2017, 4:30:52 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Brian,pity you couldn't have had a go at submerging!I launched my sub at least 3 times & rebuilt my ballast tanks before I went under.On the last attempt I took it to the local boat ramp where I found about 30 young schoolkids in P class yachts. I was turning to go home when an adult chased after mesaying they were ?just on lunch break & they would provide support with theirinflatables! I dived for 30 minutes & returned to the applause of all the kids &support crew.Alan Sent from my iPad On 4/11/2017, at 10:56 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Congrats Brian. First test out of the way and first contact with authorities. Next time invite them down to help launch and be support crew. On Nov 3, 2017 2:32 PM, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Hi All,????????????? Launched my sub yesterday !? I launched at Channel Islands Harbor in Oxnard, CA .? We have our sailboat docked there so what I did was moved our boat over to the guest slips because the guest slips are right next to the launch ramp, that way I didn't have go to?far to?? motor the sub over next to the sailboat.? My plan was to keep it overnight and play around with it for a couple of days.? So we launched it from the?boat ramp and it floated off really nicely, just like launching a regular boat.? I kept it there at the ramp dock for a little bit just to check the stability and all.? So when all seemed fine I got in?turned on the juice and engaged the motors.? Everything ran great, I only ran the motors at maybe half speed and cruised over the?guest dock,? the thing turns like a battleship,? kind of a delay from?when I begin turning the pods.? Anyway got it over the?to the dock no problem, then I did a couple of?U turns just to see how tight of turns I could make.? I could make reasonable turns much like a sailboat under power?.? So my plan was to sink it all the way down to the hatch just to see where I was at .? The thing is a little ass heavy because I have most of my ballast weight concentrated way back in the bottom of the ferro-cement hull, so I think I need to distribute that weight out more towards the front to even things out.? I?bled out quite a bit of air from my main ballast but the nose was still up quite a ways compared to the back?.? So around this time the Harbor Patrol guy showed up , he turned out to be a real prick.? He was desperately trying to find something illegal about having a sub in the harbor.? So his first thing was , oh you can't be a hazard to navigation and ?submerging sub is definitely a hazard.? I informed him I wasn't planning on submerging in the harbor , don't worry.? So then he was literally flipping through pages of regulations trying to find something.? Anyway I told him I just wanted to keep it over night next to my sailboat and do some things to it.? So then his deal was oh well you have to physically drive the sub down to the harbor patrol office and get the permit, so I said ok fine no problem ( chance to do some testing !)? .? Then he?gets on the phone talking to the harbor master bla bla bla.? so then he decides he better call the Coast Guard.?? so then the Coast Guard comes over, a whole boat load of them.? They started out pretty serious but then they became really intrigued with the sub and where asking about it.? Well?it turned into a love fest with the?Coast Guard they were really getting into the whole submarine thing.? I let one cute?little?Coasty girl go inside and check things out.??Meanwhile the?Harbor Patrol guy wasn't happy that Coast Guard was liking my sub.? So finally the Harbor?Patrol guy decides that since my sub could not bump up against the dock and my side rails were actually bumping the foam underneath the dock rail?that my sub was?going to damage the dock and?so I couldn't dock it over night.? So I said whatever fine , I'll haul it out.? My hauler friend had to come back down from Ojai ( a bout an hour away).??So he came back down, I then drove the sub back over to?the?launch ramp ( which was good since?everybody?got to see it move around) and then we retrieve it?.??? Quite a day!?? learn a lot as far as what I need to?still with the sub.? ?Brian?? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 18:49:13 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 15:49:13 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] launch pics Message-ID: <20171103154913.30FB0E51@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Esmae-at-dock22.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 302834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 18:49:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 15:49:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] launch pic 2 Message-ID: <20171103154958.30FB0E48@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Esmae-at-dock25.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 343708 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 19:56:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 19:56:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch In-Reply-To: <20171103143114.30FEE765@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20171103143114.30FEE765@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <00ca01d354ff$695b2150$3c1163f0$@indy.rr.com> Brian, congrats! One question, was your sub ?registered?? If not, do you think that would have given you more credibility and therefore less grounds for the harbor patrol guy to hassle you? Did the coast guard show interest in your registration status? Thanks, Steve McQueen From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 5:31 PM To: PSubs Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch Hi All, Launched my sub yesterday ! I launched at Channel Islands Harbor in Oxnard, CA . We have our sailboat docked there so what I did was moved our boat over to the guest slips because the guest slips are right next to the launch ramp, that way I didn't have go to far to motor the sub over next to the sailboat. My plan was to keep it overnight and play around with it for a couple of days. So we launched it from the boat ramp and it floated off really nicely, just like launching a regular boat. I kept it there at the ramp dock for a little bit just to check the stability and all. So when all seemed fine I got in turned on the juice and engaged the motors. Everything ran great, I only ran the motors at maybe half speed and cruised over the guest dock, the thing turns like a battleship, kind of a delay from when I begin turning the pods. Anyway got it over the to the dock no problem, then I did a couple of U turns just to see how tight of turns I could make. I could make reasonable turns much like a sailboat under power . So my plan was to sink it all the way down to the hatch just to see where I was at . The thing is a little ass heavy because I have most of my ballast weight concentrated way back in the bottom of the ferro-cement hull, so I think I need to distribute that weight out more towards the front to even things out. I bled out quite a bit of air from my main ballast but the nose was still up quite a ways compared to the back . So around this time the Harbor Patrol guy showed up , he turned out to be a real prick. He was desperately trying to find something illegal about having a sub in the harbor. So his first thing was , oh you can't be a hazard to navigation and submerging sub is definitely a hazard. I informed him I wasn't planning on submerging in the harbor , don't worry. So then he was literally flipping through pages of regulations trying to find something. Anyway I told him I just wanted to keep it over night next to my sailboat and do some things to it. So then his deal was oh well you have to physically drive the sub down to the harbor patrol office and get the permit, so I said ok fine no problem ( chance to do some testing !) . Then he gets on the phone talking to the harbor master bla bla bla. so then he decides he better call the Coast Guard. so then the Coast Guard comes over, a whole boat load of them. They started out pretty serious but then they became really intrigued with the sub and where asking about it. Well it turned into a love fest with the Coast Guard they were really getting into the whole submarine thing. I let one cute little Coasty girl go inside and check things out. Meanwhile the Harbor Patrol guy wasn't happy that Coast Guard was liking my sub. So finally the Harbor Patrol guy decides that since my sub could not bump up against the dock and my side rails were actually bumping the foam underneath the dock rail that my sub was going to damage the dock and so I couldn't dock it over night. So I said whatever fine , I'll haul it out. My hauler friend had to come back down from Ojai ( a bout an hour away). So he came back down, I then drove the sub back over to the launch ramp ( which was good since everybody got to see it move around) and then we retrieve it . Quite a day! learn a lot as far as what I need to still with the sub. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 20:12:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 17:12:57 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] launch details Message-ID: <20171103171257.30F8339E@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 20:14:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 17:14:36 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch Message-ID: <20171103171436.30F83395@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 20:21:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 17:21:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch Message-ID: <20171103172123.30F833ED@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 20:22:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 00:22:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch In-Reply-To: <00ca01d354ff$695b2150$3c1163f0$@indy.rr.com> References: <20171103143114.30FEE765@m0117566.ppops.net> <00ca01d354ff$695b2150$3c1163f0$@indy.rr.com> Message-ID: <1258575965.2546821.1509754927305@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Can you tip the sub on its side and pour in some resin to coat the seam instead of cutting holes in it?Can you pull a vacuum on the tank tank and paint on some epoxy paint and maybe the epoxy will get pulled into the pin holes?Hank On Friday, November 3, 2017, 5:57:32 PM MDT, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv6944473225 #yiv6944473225 -- _filtered #yiv6944473225 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6944473225 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv6944473225 #yiv6944473225 p.yiv6944473225MsoNormal, #yiv6944473225 li.yiv6944473225MsoNormal, #yiv6944473225 div.yiv6944473225MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv6944473225 a:link, #yiv6944473225 span.yiv6944473225MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6944473225 a:visited, #yiv6944473225 span.yiv6944473225MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6944473225 p.yiv6944473225msonormal0, #yiv6944473225 li.yiv6944473225msonormal0, #yiv6944473225 div.yiv6944473225msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv6944473225 span.yiv6944473225EmailStyle18 {color:windowtext;}#yiv6944473225 .yiv6944473225MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv6944473225 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv6944473225 div.yiv6944473225WordSection1 {}#yiv6944473225 Brian, congrats!? One question, was your sub ?registered??? If not, do you think that would have given you more credibility and therefore less grounds for the harbor patrol guy to hassle you? Did the coast guard show interest in your registration status? ? Thanks, Steve McQueen ? ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 5:31 PM To: PSubs Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch ? Hi All, ????????????? Launched my sub yesterday !? I launched at Channel Islands Harbor in Oxnard, CA .? We have our sailboat docked there so what I did was moved our boat over to the guest slips because the guest slips are right next to the launch ramp, that way I didn't have go to?far to?? motor the sub over next to the sailboat.? My plan was to keep it overnight and play around with it for a couple of days.? So we launched it from the?boat ramp and it floated off really nicely, just like launching a regular boat.? I kept it there at the ramp dock for a little bit just to check the stability and all.? So when all seemed fine I got in?turned on the juice and engaged the motors.? Everything ran great, I only ran the motors at maybe half speed and cruised over the?guest dock,? the thing turns like a battleship,? kind of a delay from?when I begin turning the pods.? Anyway got it over the?to the dock no problem, then I did a couple of?U turns just to see how tight of turns I could make.? I could make reasonable turns much like a sailboat under power?.? So my plan was to sink it all the way down to the hatch just to see where I was at .? The thing is a little ass heavy because I have most of my ballast weight concentrated way back in the bottom of the ferro-cement hull, so I think I need to distribute that weight out more towards the front to even things out.? I?bled out quite a bit of air from my main ballast but the nose was still up quite a ways compared to the back?.? So around this time the Harbor Patrol guy showed up , he turned out to be a real prick.? He was desperately trying to find something illegal about having a sub in the harbor.? So his first thing was , oh you can't be a hazard to navigation and ?submerging sub is definitely a hazard.? I informed him I wasn't planning on submerging in the harbor , don't worry.? So then he was literally flipping through pages of regulations trying to find something.? Anyway I told him I just wanted to keep it over night next to my sailboat and do some things to it.? So then his deal was oh well you have to physically drive the sub down to the harbor patrol office and get the permit, so I said ok fine no problem ( chance to do some testing !)? .? Then he?gets on the phone talking to the harbor master bla bla bla.? so then he decides he better call the Coast Guard.?? so then the Coast Guard comes over, a whole boat load of them.? They started out pretty serious but then they became really intrigued with the sub and where asking about it.? Well?it turned into a love fest with the?Coast Guard they were really getting into the whole submarine thing.? I let one cute?little?Coasty girl go inside and check things out.??Meanwhile the?Harbor Patrol guy wasn't happy that Coast Guard was liking my sub.? So finally the Harbor?Patrol guy decides that since my sub could not bump up against the dock and my side rails were actually bumping the foam underneath the dock rail?that my sub was?going to damage the dock and?so I couldn't dock it over night.? So I said whatever fine , I'll haul it out.? My hauler friend had to come back down from Ojai ( a bout an hour away).??So he came back down, I then drove the sub back over to?the?launch ramp ( which was good since?everybody?got to see it move around) and then we retrieve it?.??? Quite a day!?? learn a lot as far as what I need to?still with the sub.? ? Brian?? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 20:26:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 17:26:06 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch Message-ID: <20171103172606.30F833CE@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 21:04:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 01:04:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch In-Reply-To: <20171103172606.30F833CE@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20171103172606.30F833CE@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <241176992.2557700.1509757463778@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,After I sent that I realized that you mentioned doing that.Hank On Friday, November 3, 2017, 6:26:18 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I've done those things!?? ?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 00:22:07 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Can you tip the sub on its side and pour in some resin to coat the seam instead of cutting holes in it?Can you pull a vacuum on the tank tank and paint on some epoxy paint and maybe the epoxy will get pulled into the pin holes?Hank On Friday, November 3, 2017, 5:57:32 PM MDT, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian, congrats!? One question, was your sub ?registered??? If not, do you think that would have given you more credibility and therefore less grounds for the harbor patrol guy to hassle you? Did the coast guard show interest in your registration status? ? Thanks, Steve McQueen ? ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 5:31 PM To: PSubs Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch ? Hi All, ????????????? Launched my sub yesterday !? I launched at Channel Islands Harbor in Oxnard, CA .? We have our sailboat docked there so what I did was moved our boat over to the guest slips because the guest slips are right next to the launch ramp, that way I didn't have go to?far to?? motor the sub over next to the sailboat.? My plan was to keep it overnight and play around with it for a couple of days.? So we launched it from the?boat ramp and it floated off really nicely, just like launching a regular boat.? I kept it there at the ramp dock for a little bit just to check the stability and all.? So when all seemed fine I got in?turned on the juice and engaged the motors.? Everything ran great, I only ran the motors at maybe half speed and cruised over the?guest dock,? the thing turns like a battleship,? kind of a delay from?when I begin turning the pods.? Anyway got it over the?to the dock no problem, then I did a couple of?U turns just to see how tight of turns I could make.? I could make reasonable turns much like a sailboat under power?.? So my plan was to sink it all the way down to the hatch just to see where I was at .? The thing is a little ass heavy because I have most of my ballast weight concentrated way back in the bottom of the ferro-cement hull, so I think I need to distribute that weight out more towards the front to even things out.? I?bled out quite a bit of air from my main ballast but the nose was still up quite a ways compared to the back?.? So around this time the Harbor Patrol guy showed up , he turned out to be a real prick.? He was desperately trying to find something illegal about having a sub in the harbor.? So his first thing was , oh you can't be a hazard to navigation and ?submerging sub is definitely a hazard.? I informed him I wasn't planning on submerging in the harbor , don't worry.? So then he was literally flipping through pages of regulations trying to find something.? Anyway I told him I just wanted to keep it over night next to my sailboat and do some things to it.? So then his deal was oh well you have to physically drive the sub down to the harbor patrol office and get the permit, so I said ok fine no problem ( chance to do some testing !)? .? Then he?gets on the phone talking to the harbor master bla bla bla.? so then he decides he better call the Coast Guard.?? so then the Coast Guard comes over, a whole boat load of them.? They started out pretty serious but then they became really intrigued with the sub and where asking about it.? Well?it turned into a love fest with the?Coast Guard they were really getting into the whole submarine thing.? I let one cute?little?Coasty girl go inside and check things out.??Meanwhile the?Harbor Patrol guy wasn't happy that Coast Guard was liking my sub.? So finally the Harbor?Patrol guy decides that since my sub could not bump up against the dock and my side rails were actually bumping the foam underneath the dock rail?that my sub was?going to damage the dock and?so I couldn't dock it over night.? So I said whatever fine , I'll haul it out.? My hauler friend had to come back down from Ojai ( a bout an hour away).??So he came back down, I then drove the sub back over to?the?launch ramp ( which was good since?everybody?got to see it move around) and then we retrieve it?.??? Quite a day!?? learn a lot as far as what I need to?still with the sub.? ? Brian?? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 21:13:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 01:13:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electric manipulator References: <1632487743.2589171.1509757992403.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1632487743.2589171.1509757992403@mail.yahoo.com> Hi all,Building a fully electric manipulator is tough! ?well actually the wrist and grabber is tough. ?The arm itself is working nicely so far. ?I have spring loaded joints to offset the load on the actuators. ?I am using rotary springs from car windows. ?The wrist is the bugger to build with the tooling and equipment I have. ?I am having trouble with the grabber binding on the common shaft. ?I think I have a solution finally. ?I am NOT giving up!Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 3 22:12:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:12:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] launch details In-Reply-To: <20171103171257.30F8339E@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20171103171257.30F8339E@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian, Look up a coating called "Gluvit." It's a two part epoxy intended to seal pinhole or hairline holes in boat hulls. I've never had to use it, but it sounds like something that might be targetted to this issue. BTW that's an amazing amount of freeboard in the photos! Best, Alec > On Nov 3, 2017, at 8:12 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > So, I have this chronic, pin hole leak problem which has been hard to deal with. I've been kind off putting off solving the problem because I figured that I could live with it for the time being. But what it is is that around the perimeter of where I mated the two ferro-cement hulls together , kind of a clam shell, I'm having these tiny leaks . I figured while I was observing the sub, that it was taking about an hour to for the sub to go down about 12 inches, unfortunately I was rudely interrupted by the unhelpful HP. Because I was thinking that the leaks would probably stop after the water level got above that area. So I have to fix that issue once and for all , so I'm going to yank everything apart and turn that ferro-cement hull on it's side. Then cut large access holes in between the ribs at the bottom of the hull. Then with access to the mated area I can fill seal that region. Maybe even fiberglass epoxy it. Removing holes in between the ribs will not significantly effect the structure, for the purpose that is intended. But that means I won't be able to pressurize that cavity anymore, which was handy when looking for leeks, I could just do the bubble test. I think the trade off will be worth it, but turning that thing on it's side will be a project! > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 4 13:43:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:43:14 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 3D printing parts Message-ID: <1254133293.4832.1509817395140@wamui-fatboy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 4 17:19:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 17:19:57 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch In-Reply-To: <20171103171436.30F83395@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20171103171436.30F83395@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <00ec01d355b2$ac3db060$04b91120$@indy.rr.com> That is what I meant. Thanks for sharing. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 8:15 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch Steve, Not sure what you mean by "registered? I did have California boat registration. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 19:56:45 -0400 Brian, congrats! One question, was your sub ?registered?? If not, do you think that would have given you more credibility and therefore less grounds for the harbor patrol guy to hassle you? Did the coast guard show interest in your registration status? Thanks, Steve McQueen From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 5:31 PM To: PSubs > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch Hi All, Launched my sub yesterday ! I launched at Channel Islands Harbor in Oxnard, CA . We have our sailboat docked there so what I did was moved our boat over to the guest slips because the guest slips are right next to the launch ramp, that way I didn't have go to far to motor the sub over next to the sailboat. My plan was to keep it overnight and play around with it for a couple of days. So we launched it from the boat ramp and it floated off really nicely, just like launching a regular boat. I kept it there at the ramp dock for a little bit just to check the stability and all. So when all seemed fine I got in turned on the juice and engaged the motors. Everything ran great, I only ran the motors at maybe half speed and cruised over the guest dock, the thing turns like a battleship, kind of a delay from when I begin turning the pods. Anyway got it over the to the dock no problem, then I did a couple of U turns just to see how tight of turns I could make. I could make reasonable turns much like a sailboat under power . So my plan was to sink it all the way down to the hatch just to see where I was at . The thing is a little ass heavy because I have most of my ballast weight concentrated way back in the bottom of the ferro-cement hull, so I think I need to distribute that weight out more towards the front to even things out. I bled out quite a bit of air from my main ballast but the nose was still up quite a ways compared to the back . So around this time the Harbor Patrol guy showed up , he turned out to be a real prick. He was desperately trying to find something illegal about having a sub in the harbor. So his first thing was , oh you can't be a hazard to navigation and submerging sub is definitely a hazard. I informed him I wasn't planning on submerging in the harbor , don't worry. So then he was literally flipping through pages of regulations trying to find something. Anyway I told him I just wanted to keep it over night next to my sailboat and do some things to it. So then his deal was oh well you have to physically drive the sub down to the harbor patrol office and get the permit, so I said ok fine no problem ( chance to do some testing !) . Then he gets on the phone talking to the harbor master bla bla bla. so then he decides he better call the Coast Guard. so then the Coast Guard comes over, a whole boat load of them. They started out pretty serious but then they became really intrigued with the sub and where asking about it. Well it turned into a love fest with the Coast Guard they were really getting into the whole submarine thing. I let one cute little Coasty girl go inside and check things out. Meanwhile the Harbor Patrol guy wasn't happy that Coast Guard was liking my sub. So finally the Harbor Patrol guy decides that since my sub could not bump up against the dock and my side rails were actually bumping the foam underneath the dock rail that my sub was going to damage the dock and so I couldn't dock it over night. So I said whatever fine , I'll haul it out. My hauler friend had to come back down from Ojai ( a bout an hour away). So he came back down, I then drove the sub back over to the launch ramp ( which was good since everybody got to see it move around) and then we retrieve it . Quite a day! learn a lot as far as what I need to still with the sub. Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Nov 5 13:46:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 13:46:14 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch In-Reply-To: <00ec01d355b2$ac3db060$04b91120$@indy.rr.com> References: <20171103171436.30F83395@m0117565.ppops.net> <00ec01d355b2$ac3db060$04b91120$@indy.rr.com> Message-ID: CONGRATS on the launch Brian! ~ Douglas S. On 11/4/17, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > That is what I meant. Thanks for sharing. > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 8:15 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch > > > > Steve, Not sure what you mean by "registered? I did have California boat > registration. > > > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: > > From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > > > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch > Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 19:56:45 -0400 > > Brian, congrats! > > One question, was your sub ?registered?? If not, do you think that would > have given you more credibility and therefore less grounds for the harbor > patrol guy to hassle you? Did the coast guard show interest in your > registration status? > > > > Thanks, > > Steve McQueen > > > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 5:31 PM > To: PSubs > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Launch > > > > Hi All, > > Launched my sub yesterday ! I launched at Channel Islands > Harbor in Oxnard, CA . We have our sailboat docked there so what I did was > moved our boat over to the guest slips because the guest slips are right > next to the launch ramp, that way I didn't have go to far to motor the sub > over next to the sailboat. My plan was to keep it overnight and play around > with it for a couple of days. So we launched it from the boat ramp and it > floated off really nicely, just like launching a regular boat. I kept it > there at the ramp dock for a little bit just to check the stability and all. > So when all seemed fine I got in turned on the juice and engaged the > motors. Everything ran great, I only ran the motors at maybe half speed and > cruised over the guest dock, the thing turns like a battleship, kind of a > delay from when I begin turning the pods. Anyway got it over the to the > dock no problem, then I did a couple of U turns just to see how tight of > turns I could make. I could make reasonable turns much like a sailboat > under power . So my plan was to sink it all the way down to the hatch just > to see where I was at . The thing is a little ass heavy because I have most > of my ballast weight concentrated way back in the bottom of the ferro-cement > hull, so I think I need to distribute that weight out more towards the front > to even things out. I bled out quite a bit of air from my main ballast but > the nose was still up quite a ways compared to the back . So around this > time the Harbor Patrol guy showed up , he turned out to be a real prick. He > was desperately trying to find something illegal about having a sub in the > harbor. So his first thing was , oh you can't be a hazard to navigation and > submerging sub is definitely a hazard. I informed him I wasn't planning on > submerging in the harbor , don't worry. So then he was literally flipping > through pages of regulations trying to find something. Anyway I told him I > just wanted to keep it over night next to my sailboat and do some things to > it. So then his deal was oh well you have to physically drive the sub down > to the harbor patrol office and get the permit, so I said ok fine no problem > ( chance to do some testing !) . Then he gets on the phone talking to the > harbor master bla bla bla. so then he decides he better call the Coast > Guard. so then the Coast Guard comes over, a whole boat load of them. > They started out pretty serious but then they became really intrigued with > the sub and where asking about it. Well it turned into a love fest with the > Coast Guard they were really getting into the whole submarine thing. I let > one cute little Coasty girl go inside and check things out. Meanwhile the > Harbor Patrol guy wasn't happy that Coast Guard was liking my sub. So > finally the Harbor Patrol guy decides that since my sub could not bump up > against the dock and my side rails were actually bumping the foam underneath > the dock rail that my sub was going to damage the dock and so I couldn't > dock it over night. So I said whatever fine , I'll haul it out. My hauler > friend had to come back down from Ojai ( a bout an hour away). So he came > back down, I then drove the sub back over to the launch ramp ( which was > good since everybody got to see it move around) and then we retrieve it . > Quite a day! learn a lot as far as what I need to still with the sub. > > > > Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Nov 5 15:27:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 21:27:06 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] humminbird 360 Message-ID: <02dd01d35674$72a13940$57e3abc0$@nl> All, The only drawback from the Norway adventure was that we killed the side scan transducer. The plastic cracked during launch. And yesterday it stopped completely ; water leaked tru the cable core.. Wonder if I can replace it with a 360 deg. transducer. Anyone hands on experience with it ? -moving parts inside. -estimated depth rating -works without GPS? Best regards, Emile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Nov 5 15:27:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 21:27:06 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] launch pics In-Reply-To: <20171103154913.30FB0E51@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20171103154913.30FB0E51@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <02e201d35674$72bdc1f0$583945d0$@nl> Nice Brian! Regards, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 3 november 2017 23:49 Aan: PSubs Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] launch pics -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 6 04:22:13 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 22:22:13 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] humminbird 360 In-Reply-To: <02dd01d35674$72a13940$57e3abc0$@nl> References: <02dd01d35674$72a13940$57e3abc0$@nl> Message-ID: Hi Emile, No! I tried to get information from the manufacturer of the Simrad forward scan transducers, but they weren't very helpful. I wanted to know if you could shoot through fibreglass with them as you can in other transducers. But they couldn't tell me. My idea was to mount the transducer in a 1/2" fibreglass shell. They also did not have a clue as to what their depth rating was. Buy our product, test yourself but outside warranty! You may have better luck as they manufacture most of the transducers in Europe. I would be interested in any progress you make with this. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 6/11/2017, at 9:27 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > All, > > The only drawback from the Norway adventure was that we killed the side scan transducer. > The plastic cracked during launch. And yesterday it stopped completely ; water leaked tru the cable core.. > > Wonder if I can replace it with a 360 deg. transducer. > Anyone hands on experience with it ? > -moving parts inside. > -estimated depth rating > -works without GPS? > > > Best regards, Emile > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 6 12:51:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 09:51:18 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmae close up 2 Message-ID: <20171106095118.30F18D82@m0117457.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Close-up-2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 129782 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 6 15:23:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 12:23:07 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] launch pics Message-ID: <20171106122307.30FB2B0C@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 6 16:47:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:47:24 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmae close up 2 In-Reply-To: <20171106095118.30F18D82@m0117457.ppops.net> References: <20171106095118.30F18D82@m0117457.ppops.net> Message-ID: <23E4090B-6536-46CF-A387-366FD1E12FDE@yahoo.com> Hi Brian, I am not going to win a popularity contest here, but it looks like you are going to need a ton more lead & maybe build an extra ballast tank around the spherical portion! It seems way too high out of the water. If you consider the volume & weight that you have above the water line; is that equal to the volume of air that you have in your ballast tanks? I.e. when the air is released is it going to be neutrally buoyant? It also looks like the ballast tank end will pivot downward from the spherical portion when the air is released, & you will have the submarine on a steep angle. You would need a lot of lead in the bottom of the sphere. I had to rebuild my ballast tanks & add a lot more lead to my sub, but it is nowhere near the size of yours! Would like to know what the opinion of other Psubbers is as I am open to criticism on this! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 7/11/2017, at 6:51 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > HI All, > Here's an enlarged pic of Esmae at dock, unfortunately I didn't take any video or too many pictures. But you can see a little better how it sits in the water. The fact that I didn't get a chance to submerge is really starting to bug me now! I still have some unanswered questions, namely if there would still be air in my main ballast when fully submerged. > > Brian > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 6 16:59:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 21:59:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmae close up 2 In-Reply-To: <23E4090B-6536-46CF-A387-366FD1E12FDE@yahoo.com> References: <20171106095118.30F18D82@m0117457.ppops.net> <23E4090B-6536-46CF-A387-366FD1E12FDE@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1160735880.3265455.1510005571463@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,You may be underestimating the air volume in the main MBT. ?I also predicted the sub would ?do a nose dive suddenly, but that was before the addition of the new light weight second MBT up front. ?There is enough MBT above the water line when most of the sub is submerged. ?I think Brian has it, pity he couldnt de a test dip.Hank On Monday, November 6, 2017, 2:47:46 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian,I am not going to win a popularity contest here, but it looks likeyou are going to need a ton more lead & maybe build an extra ballast tankaround the spherical portion! It seems way too high out of the water.If you consider the volume & weight that you have above the water line; is that equalto the volume of air that you have in your ballast tanks? I.e. when the air is releasedis it going to be neutrally buoyant?It also looks like the ballast tank end will pivot downward from the sphericalportion when the air is released, & you will have the submarine on a steep angle.You would need a lot of lead in the bottom of the sphere.I had to rebuild my ballast tanks & add a lot more lead to my sub, but it isnowhere near the size of yours!Would like to know what the opinion of other Psubbers is as I am open tocriticism on this!Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/11/2017, at 6:51 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: HI All,???????????????? ???? Here's an enlarged pic of Esmae at dock,? unfortunately I didn't take any video or too many pictures.?? But you?can see a little better how it sits in the water.? The fact that I didn't get a chance to submerge is really starting to bug me now!?? I still have some unanswered questions, namely if there would still be air in my main ballast when fully submerged.? ?Brian?? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 6 17:32:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 11:32:06 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmae close up 2 In-Reply-To: <1160735880.3265455.1510005571463@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20171106095118.30F18D82@m0117457.ppops.net> <23E4090B-6536-46CF-A387-366FD1E12FDE@yahoo.com> <1160735880.3265455.1510005571463@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <35A9DBB5-B02E-482E-A2D1-7D808927BC7A@yahoo.com> Thanks Hank, I can't recall whats below the water line, but was thinking that the volume of any ballast tank around that sphere would have to be at least as much as the volume of what is showing out of the water plus a litre of air for every kilo of weight above the waterline. ( I think this is right) If Brian is relying on the filling of ballast tanks in the tail section to bring the spherical section under the water it won't happen! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 7/11/2017, at 10:59 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > You may be underestimating the air volume in the main MBT. I also predicted the sub would do a nose dive suddenly, but that was before the addition of the new light weight second MBT up front. There is enough MBT above the water line when most of the sub is submerged. I think Brian has it, pity he couldnt de a test dip. > Hank > > > On Monday, November 6, 2017, 2:47:46 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Brian, > I am not going to win a popularity contest here, but it looks like > you are going to need a ton more lead & maybe build an extra ballast tank > around the spherical portion! It seems way too high out of the water. > If you consider the volume & weight that you have above the water line; is that equal > to the volume of air that you have in your ballast tanks? I.e. when the air is released > is it going to be neutrally buoyant? > It also looks like the ballast tank end will pivot downward from the spherical > portion when the air is released, & you will have the submarine on a steep angle. > You would need a lot of lead in the bottom of the sphere. > I had to rebuild my ballast tanks & add a lot more lead to my sub, but it is > nowhere near the size of yours! > Would like to know what the opinion of other Psubbers is as I am open to > criticism on this! > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 7/11/2017, at 6:51 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> HI All, >> Here's an enlarged pic of Esmae at dock, unfortunately I didn't take any video or too many pictures. But you can see a little better how it sits in the water. The fact that I didn't get a chance to submerge is really starting to bug me now! I still have some unanswered questions, namely if there would still be air in my main ballast when fully submerged.. >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 6 17:38:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 14:38:39 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Esmae close up 2 Message-ID: <20171106143839.30FFA874@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 6 21:08:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 02:08:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] rov References: <2008735029.3371513.1510020523729.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2008735029.3371513.1510020523729@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I have been thinking about my next project to compliment Gamma and Elementary 3000. ?I am thinking about adding an ROV. ?I can mount an ROV garage to the front on the opposite side of the manipulator. ?The manipulator is close to completion, and I don't have much else to do. ?I can use the same rotary actuator motor type that I just built for the manipulator for thrusters. ?I have a real nice aluminum strobe light housing ?that can be used for the camera. ?I probably have most of the stuff here to build one. ?I might need some help with an umbilical cord though.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 7 02:00:35 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 23:00:35 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] rov In-Reply-To: <2008735029.3371513.1510020523729@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2008735029.3371513.1510020523729.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2008735029.3371513.1510020523729@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, you amaze me at your ability to get things done. I can't even get the cnc ribs I had cut a month ago assembled. But that could be because of the fire around here, (missed my home thanks to the wind currents, or that I have to rebuild my future shop if I want a dry indoor space for a winter project, or the 400 lavender plants that need to be planted for our lavender and honey business. So keep building so I can live vicariously thru your sub projects. On Nov 6, 2017 6:14 PM, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > I have been thinking about my next project to compliment Gamma and > Elementary 3000. I am thinking about adding an ROV. I can mount an ROV > garage to the front on the opposite side of the manipulator. The > manipulator is close to completion, and I don't have much else to do. I > can use the same rotary actuator motor type that I just built for the > manipulator for thrusters. I have a real nice aluminum strobe light > housing that can be used for the camera. I probably have most of the > stuff here to build one. I might need some help with an umbilical cord > though. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 7 10:32:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 15:32:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] rov In-Reply-To: References: <2008735029.3371513.1510020523729.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2008735029.3371513.1510020523729@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2026557776.3797388.1510068766541@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks David, but nothing amazing here, I am off work so I have lots of time to work on stuff. ?I spend half the day on my reno project then I come home and spend half the day tinkering.I am glad your property was sparred when so many were not.Hank On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 12:00:55 AM MST, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, you amaze me at your ability to get things done. I can't even get the cnc ribs I had cut a month ago assembled. But that could be because of the fire around here, (missed my home thanks to the wind currents, or that I have to rebuild my future shop if I want a dry indoor space for a winter project, or the 400 lavender plants that need to be planted for our lavender and honey business. So keep building so I can live vicariously thru your sub projects.? On Nov 6, 2017 6:14 PM, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Hi All,I have been thinking about my next project to compliment Gamma and Elementary 3000.? I am thinking about adding an ROV.? I can mount an ROV garage to the front on the opposite side of the manipulator.? The manipulator is close to completion, and I don't have much else to do.? I can use the same rotary actuator motor type that I just built for the manipulator for thrusters.? I have a real nice aluminum strobe light housing ?that can be used for the camera.? I probably have most of the stuff here to build one.? I might need some help with an umbilical cord though.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 7 15:10:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 09:10:33 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] rov In-Reply-To: References: <2008735029.3371513.1510020523729.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2008735029.3371513.1510020523729@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David, that's great news that things have settled down & you escaped the fire. Now you will just have the dust from the demolition & a couple of years of construction to listen to. I have just started an online plc programming course with view to buying a PLC or PAC & HMI. I believe you were going to go down this track & are trying to keep your build in line with either GL or ABS. You are welcome to copy what I am doing or collaborate if you want! I am looking at leaving the programming part till August, but that could change! I am doing a few things differently. I have had electronic pressure sensors made up with a fitting compatible with a first stage regulator high pressure port & am water / pressure proofing them. So no high pressure coming on to the sub. Also I will be sampling from 3 oxygen sensors as in a rebreather system to top up the O2 level. James Camerons boat did something similar. I may do this with the CO2 sensors also. So the system will sample the 2 sensors that are closest in value to each other & be able to detect a faulty sensor. Let me know what you are up to in case I can help. alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Cheers Alan P.S. get Y to plant the flowers! Sent from my iPad > On 7/11/2017, at 8:00 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, you amaze me at your ability to get things done. I can't even get the cnc ribs I had cut a month ago assembled. But that could be because of the fire around here, (missed my home thanks to the wind currents, or that I have to rebuild my future shop if I want a dry indoor space for a winter project, or the 400 lavender plants that need to be planted for our lavender and honey business. So keep building so I can live vicariously thru your sub projects. > >> On Nov 6, 2017 6:14 PM, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> Hi All, >> I have been thinking about my next project to compliment Gamma and Elementary 3000. I am thinking about adding an ROV. I can mount an ROV garage to the front on the opposite side of the manipulator. The manipulator is close to completion, and I don't have much else to do. I can use the same rotary actuator motor type that I just built for the manipulator for thrusters. I have a real nice aluminum strobe light housing that can be used for the camera. I probably have most of the stuff here to build one. I might need some help with an umbilical cord though. >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 7 15:22:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 09:22:11 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] rov In-Reply-To: <2008735029.3371513.1510020523729@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2008735029.3371513.1510020523729.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2008735029.3371513.1510020523729@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, try googling "Fly out rov" or "tether management system" for some ideas. Here is an example... http://ac-cess.com/index.php/products/ac-rov-3000/ac-rov-3000-technical-specification Looks complicated. I would imagine there would be position feedback from the cable drum motor, & a level wind like on a fishing real, as well as a constant tension kept on the cable. I have thought about this as an alternative to a manipulator. You could put cutters on a gripper so it could cut you free from any entanglement. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 7/11/2017, at 3:08 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > I have been thinking about my next project to compliment Gamma and Elementary 3000. I am thinking about adding an ROV. I can mount an ROV garage to the front on the opposite side of the manipulator. The manipulator is close to completion, and I don't have much else to do. I can use the same rotary actuator motor type that I just built for the manipulator for thrusters. I have a real nice aluminum strobe light housing that can be used for the camera. I probably have most of the stuff here to build one. I might need some help with an umbilical cord though. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 7 18:13:54 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 17:13:54 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submarine for sale Message-ID: <201711072313.vA7NDRk5012556@whoweb.com> After taking the K-350 off the for sale list several months ago and holding it for a person to agreed to buy it I learned my lesson. I didn't take a deposit and guess what, he just now told me he doesn't have the money for it.? So the Rekon submarine is up for sale again. I was originally asking $20,000. It is for sale now for $10,000 cash to the first person to send me the money. That ought to get it sold! I am taking a loss on this because I do not have the time to mess with it anymore and I need the money for Pisces and I need the space in the shop.? So here we go. First come first serve! -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Nov 8 10:56:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 07:56:43 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub docking Message-ID: <20171108075643.30FC1B83@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Nov 8 11:06:35 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 16:06:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub docking In-Reply-To: <20171108075643.30FC1B83@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20171108075643.30FC1B83@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1214081284.4462495.1510157195313@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I doubt they will let you mess with the dock itself. ?Can you bolt on a couple vertical pieces, even wood for the softness. ?The verticals will stop the sub from going under the dock. ?Anyone that has tied up to a dock with floats in a submarine knows about this issue.?Hank On Wednesday, November 8, 2017, 8:57:02 AM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,???????????????????? Does anyone know of dock supports that would accommodate?a sub at dock??? I'm trying to come up with a scheme to satisfy the harbor so I can dock my sub without tearing up the foam under the wooden dock platform.? What would be nice?would be something that could temporarily?be attached to the dock, but it would have to be ridged enough to not move around.?Brian?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Nov 8 11:12:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 08:12:01 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub docking Message-ID: <20171108081201.30F9FFBC@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Nov 8 11:34:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 08:34:14 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub docking Message-ID: <20171108083414.30F3D523@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 11 15:11:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 20:11:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcing ring References: <58481473.251055.1510431108635.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <58481473.251055.1510431108635@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,I am getting started on my motor install in my escape pod while I wait for rov and manipulator parts to arrive. ?When the motor assembly was in the aft head of Gamma, the motor was inside a 8 inch id pipe 1\2 in wall. ?That pipe protruded through the head and was capped on the wet end with a flat plate reinforced with gussets to the prop shaft tube. ? I want to use the same parts except, I want to shorten the 8 pipe so it only extends inside the sphere the depth of the magnetic coupler witch is about 4 inches. ?My theory is that the additional pipe length serves no reinforcing purpose past a couple inches inside the hull. ?The section of sphere I am removing weighs 7 lbs and the 4 inch long pipe section weighs 15.82 lbs plus the pipe section has a flange for bolting the prop shaft assembly on. ?Is my assumption that the additional length of pipe serves no purpose for reinforcing?thanksHank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 11 15:46:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:46:36 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcing ring In-Reply-To: <58481473.251055.1510431108635@mail.yahoo.com> References: <58481473.251055.1510431108635.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <58481473.251055.1510431108635@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank - that is essentially correct. Effective reinforcement of the hull shell entails adding material which will carry shell stresses around the penetration, and while there is a bit of a local effect in the pipe wall that distributes load axially away from the weld, there are rapidly diminishing returns as you move away from the neutral axis of the shell wall. A better solution would be to move to a heavier wall pipe, and then make it shorter. You only need to make it long enough to land the weld with a generous fillet, although longer can't hurt - look at the cross-sectional area of the reinforcement. You should be adding at least as much area as you remove in the hole. The ideal reinforcement would be to cut a much larger hole and weld in a thicker spherical head segment so that the carried load is exactly in-line (with smooth 4:1 weld tapers at the discontinuity) so that you don't introduce stress concentrations at geometric discontinuities. In that case, the pipe wouldn't need to carry any shell stress at all, if the insert was strong enough. Quick and dirty though, you want your reinforcement to keep the stresses as close to their original paths as much as possible. Visualize crushing the reinforcement - easy to do with a thin cylinder. Not so much with a thick disc. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 11, 2017, 13:11, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Sean, > I am getting started on my motor install in my escape pod while I wait for rov and manipulator parts to arrive. When the motor assembly was in the aft head of Gamma, the motor was inside a 8 inch id pipe 1\2 in wall. That pipe protruded through the head and was capped on the wet end with a flat plate reinforced with gussets to the prop shaft tube. I want to use the same parts except, I want to shorten the 8 pipe so it only extends inside the sphere the depth of the magnetic coupler witch is about 4 inches. > My theory is that the additional pipe length serves no reinforcing purpose past a couple inches inside the hull. The section of sphere I am removing weighs 7 lbs and the 4 inch long pipe section weighs 15.82 lbs plus the pipe section has a flange for bolting the prop shaft assembly on. > Is my assumption that the additional length of pipe serves no purpose for reinforcing? > thanks > Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 11 17:36:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 22:36:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcing ring In-Reply-To: References: <58481473.251055.1510431108635.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <58481473.251055.1510431108635@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2079258628.283972.1510439783505@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks' Sean,I can't use a spherical segment because there is a flange that the prop tube assembly bolts on. ?I would prefer a flat disk with a machined face to accept the prop tube assembly, but that is lot more work because it will warp from welding. ?I guess I do have the technology to machine it flat. ?Hank On Saturday, November 11, 2017, 1:46:59 PM MST, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - that is essentially correct. Effective reinforcement of the hull shell entails adding material which will carry shell stresses around the penetration, and while there is a bit of a local effect in the pipe wall that distributes load axially away from the weld, there are rapidly diminishing returns as you move away from the neutral axis of the shell wall. A better solution would be to move to a heavier wall pipe, and then make it shorter. You only need to make it long enough to land the weld with a generous fillet, although longer can't hurt - look at the cross-sectional area of the reinforcement. You should be adding at least as much area as you remove in the hole. The ideal reinforcement would be to cut a much larger hole and weld in a thicker spherical head segment so that the carried load is exactly in-line (with smooth 4:1 weld tapers at the discontinuity) so that you don't introduce stress concentrations at geometric discontinuities. In that case, the pipe wouldn't need to carry any shell stress at all, if the insert was strong enough. Quick and dirty though, you want your reinforcement to keep the stresses as close to their original paths as much as possible. Visualize crushing the reinforcement - easy to do with a thin cylinder. Not so much with a thick disc. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 11, 2017, 13:11, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Hi Sean,I am getting started on my motor install in my escape pod while I wait for rov and manipulator parts to arrive. ?When the motor assembly was in the aft head of Gamma, the motor was inside a 8 inch id pipe 1\2 in wall. ?That pipe protruded through the head and was capped on the wet end with a flat plate reinforced with gussets to the prop shaft tube. ? I want to use the same parts except, I want to shorten the 8 pipe so it only extends inside the sphere the depth of the magnetic coupler witch is about 4 inches. ?My theory is that the additional pipe length serves no reinforcing purpose past a couple inches inside the hull. ?The section of sphere I am removing weighs 7 lbs and the 4 inch long pipe section weighs 15.82 lbs plus the pipe section has a flange for bolting the prop shaft assembly on. ?Is my assumption that the additional length of pipe serves no purpose for reinforcing?thanksHank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Nov 12 06:36:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 11:36:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electric manipulator References: <1690435219.426931.1510486598167.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1690435219.426931.1510486598167@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,The electric manipulator project is on hold because I am not happy with the home built actuators. ?I made two, one is linear and the other is rotary. ?They work just fine but are under powered. ?I thought I could compensate for the low power by spring loading the members. ?This helps a lot, but in testing I find it inadequate. ?I bought a trim tab ?actuator that is fully submersible that I can experiment with. ?I hope to simply remove one o-ring from the shaft and air compensate it. ?One nice feature is the screw system requires no limit switches. ?The actuator is cheaper to buy than build from scratch. ?Luckily the new actuator is the same size as what I built, so they will fit the manipulator.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Nov 12 10:06:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 07:06:59 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electric manipulator Message-ID: <20171112070659.30FFD31E@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Nov 12 13:34:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 08:34:04 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electric manipulator In-Reply-To: <1690435219.426931.1510486598167@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1690435219.426931.1510486598167.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1690435219.426931.1510486598167@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I was told that I could use the power tilt rams for an outboard motor on a manipulator and replace the oil with salt water but have not pursued it further as that project is still a ways away. Rick On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 1:36 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > The electric manipulator project is on hold because I am not happy with > the home built actuators. I made two, one is linear and the other is > rotary. They work just fine but are under powered. I thought I could > compensate for the low power by spring loading the members. This helps a > lot, but in testing I find it inadequate. I bought a trim tab actuator > that is fully submersible that I can experiment with. I hope to simply > remove one o-ring from the shaft and air compensate it. One nice feature > is the screw system requires no limit switches. The actuator is cheaper to > buy than build from scratch. Luckily the new actuator is the same size as > what I built, so they will fit the manipulator. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Nov 12 15:47:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:47:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electric manipulator In-Reply-To: References: <1690435219.426931.1510486598167.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1690435219.426931.1510486598167@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <184259179.586626.1510519621162@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, you can use sea water in an aluminum or composite ?cylinder ?if you use a water pump for generating the pressure. ?There are water pressure manipulators out there. ?I am building a full electric manipulator to reduce weight and I think it will be much simpler than a hydraulic manipulator. ?Hank On Sunday, November 12, 2017, 11:34:23 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I was told that I could use the power tilt rams for an outboard motor on a manipulator and replace the oil with salt water but have not pursued it further as that project is still a ways away.?Rick On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 1:36 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,The electric manipulator project is on hold because I am not happy with the home built actuators.? I made two, one is linear and the other is rotary.? They work just fine but are under powered.? I thought I could compensate for the low power by spring loading the members.? This helps a lot, but in testing I find it inadequate.? I bought a trim tab ?actuator that is fully submersible that I can experiment with.? I hope to simply remove one o-ring from the shaft and air compensate it.? One nice feature is the screw system requires no limit switches.? The actuator is cheaper to buy than build from scratch.? Luckily the new actuator is the same size as what I built, so they will fit the manipulator.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Nov 12 18:01:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:01:47 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electric manipulator In-Reply-To: <184259179.586626.1510519621162@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1690435219.426931.1510486598167.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1690435219.426931.1510486598167@mail.yahoo.com> <184259179.586626.1510519621162@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank Simple is good. looking forward to following this as I might be paying you to build me one if it works out well. Did you ever locate any one to UT your welds yet and did you get your floor fixed from the weight of that giant milling machine? Rick On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 10:49 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, you can use sea water in an aluminum or composite cylinder if you > use a water pump for generating the pressure. There are water pressure > manipulators out there. I am building a full electric manipulator to > reduce weight and I think it will be much simpler than a hydraulic > manipulator. > Hank > > On Sunday, November 12, 2017, 11:34:23 AM MST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > I was told that I could use the power tilt rams for an outboard motor on a > manipulator and replace the oil with salt water but have not pursued it > further as that project is still a ways away. > Rick > > On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 1:36 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > The electric manipulator project is on hold because I am not happy with > the home built actuators. I made two, one is linear and the other is > rotary. They work just fine but are under powered. I thought I could > compensate for the low power by spring loading the members. This helps a > lot, but in testing I find it inadequate. I bought a trim tab actuator > that is fully submersible that I can experiment with. I hope to simply > remove one o-ring from the shaft and air compensate it. One nice feature > is the screw system requires no limit switches. The actuator is cheaper to > buy than build from scratch. Luckily the new actuator is the same size as > what I built, so they will fit the manipulator. > Hank > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Nov 12 18:33:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:33:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electric manipulator In-Reply-To: <1708755256.636766.1510528765416@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1690435219.426931.1510486598167.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1690435219.426931.1510486598167@mail.yahoo.com> <184259179.586626.1510519621162@mail.yahoo.com> <1708755256.636766.1510528765416@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <271343307.638888.1510529622651@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick,My vertical lathe is sitting on a solid foundation now, I had to excavate 4 feet down and pour a concrete column up from virgin ground to support the Lathe. ?I had to extend the front of the shop also, I don't know what I was thinking ;-) ?I have not gone further with the UT of the welds. ?I am focusing my efforts on Gamma and my renovation project. ?No need to pay for a manipulator, I will be happy to let you copy it ?if it works out. ?Hank On Sunday, November 12, 2017, 4:02:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank?Simple is good. looking forward to following this as I might be paying you to build me one if it works out well. Did you ever locate any one to UT your welds yet and did you get your floor fixed from the weight of that giant milling machine?Rick? On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 10:49 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, you can use sea water in an aluminum or composite ?cylinder ?if you use a water pump for generating the pressure.? There are water pressure manipulators out there.? I am building a full electric manipulator to reduce weight and I think it will be much simpler than a hydraulic manipulator. ?Hank On Sunday, November 12, 2017, 11:34:23 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I was told that I could use the power tilt rams for an outboard motor on a manipulator and replace the oil with salt water but have not pursued it further as that project is still a ways away.?Rick On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 1:36 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,The electric manipulator project is on hold because I am not happy with the home built actuators.? I made two, one is linear and the other is rotary.? They work just fine but are under powered.? I thought I could compensate for the low power by spring loading the members.? This helps a lot, but in testing I find it inadequate.? I bought a trim tab ?actuator that is fully submersible that I can experiment with.? I hope to simply remove one o-ring from the shaft and air compensate it.? One nice feature is the screw system requires no limit switches.? The actuator is cheaper to buy than build from scratch.? Luckily the new actuator is the same size as what I built, so they will fit the manipulator.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Nov 12 18:56:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:56:30 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electric manipulator In-Reply-To: <271343307.638888.1510529622651@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1690435219.426931.1510486598167.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1690435219.426931.1510486598167@mail.yahoo.com> <184259179.586626.1510519621162@mail.yahoo.com> <1708755256.636766.1510528765416@mail.yahoo.com> <271343307.638888.1510529622651@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds good. Take lots of pictures! Rick On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 1:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > My vertical lathe is sitting on a solid foundation now, I had to excavate > 4 feet down and pour a concrete column up from virgin ground to support the > Lathe. I had to extend the front of the shop also, I don't know what I was > thinking ;-) I have not gone further with the UT of the welds. I am > focusing my efforts on Gamma and my renovation project. No need to pay for > a manipulator, I will be happy to let you copy it if it works out. > Hank > > On Sunday, November 12, 2017, 4:02:15 PM MST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank > Simple is good. looking forward to following this as I might be paying you > to build me one if it works out well. Did you ever locate any one to UT > your welds yet and did you get your floor fixed from the weight of that > giant milling machine? > Rick > > > On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 10:49 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, you can use sea water in an aluminum or composite cylinder if you > use a water pump for generating the pressure. There are water pressure > manipulators out there. I am building a full electric manipulator to > reduce weight and I think it will be much simpler than a hydraulic > manipulator. > Hank > > On Sunday, November 12, 2017, 11:34:23 AM MST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > I was told that I could use the power tilt rams for an outboard motor on a > manipulator and replace the oil with salt water but have not pursued it > further as that project is still a ways away. > Rick > > On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 1:36 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > The electric manipulator project is on hold because I am not happy with > the home built actuators. I made two, one is linear and the other is > rotary. They work just fine but are under powered. I thought I could > compensate for the low power by spring loading the members. This helps a > lot, but in testing I find it inadequate. I bought a trim tab actuator > that is fully submersible that I can experiment with. I hope to simply > remove one o-ring from the shaft and air compensate it. One nice feature > is the screw system requires no limit switches. The actuator is cheaper to > buy than build from scratch. Luckily the new actuator is the same size as > what I built, so they will fit the manipulator. > Hank > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 13 06:44:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 11:44:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thrusters References: <315325609.887591.1510573452499.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <315325609.887591.1510573452499@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I joined an ROV group and have found some pretty interesting thruster stuff. ?I think you have done the same? ?You can buy thrusters that are brushless and built to run in the water with no sealing. ?Sounds like they just epoxy the armature and replace the bushings with plastic.?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 13 07:08:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 01:08:18 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thrusters In-Reply-To: <315325609.887591.1510573452499@mail.yahoo.com> References: <315325609.887591.1510573452499.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <315325609.887591.1510573452499@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <85B24B4B-F289-43A5-A1FB-43886C287BF5@yahoo.com> Hank, yes there is a lot of DIY in some of those groups. I did run a motor without a housing & things like the magnets got rusty. I don't think they would stand up to sea water & any mucky water. As the motors would have any thin layers of expoxy / glue sand blasted off. From memory the motors were reasonably low powered. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/11/2017, at 12:44 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I joined an ROV group and have found some pretty interesting thruster stuff. I think you have done the same? You can buy thrusters that are brushless and built to run in the water with no sealing. Sounds like they just epoxy the armature and replace the bushings with plastic. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 13 08:10:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 13:10:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thrusters In-Reply-To: <85B24B4B-F289-43A5-A1FB-43886C287BF5@yahoo.com> References: <315325609.887591.1510573452499.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <315325609.887591.1510573452499@mail.yahoo.com> <85B24B4B-F289-43A5-A1FB-43886C287BF5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1310109695.925970.1510578645489@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Yes they are low powered, but that works for me because I am not dragging a 300 foot tether. ?My tether will be 50 feet. ?Do the brushless motors need a special controller? ?or will a PWM controller work? ?We tend to design and build things to last for an unrealistic life span. ?You mentioned a while back about water bearings lasting only 2,000 hrs. ?I doubt any Psub will see 2,000 hrs in its entire life time. ?If an 119 dollar ROV motor lasts 100 hr, I would get several years out of it. ?I am very realistic about spending versus life expectancy.Hank On Monday, November 13, 2017, 5:08:40 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,yes there is a lot of DIY in some of those groups.I did run a motor without a housing & things like the magnets got rusty.I don't think they would stand up to sea water & any mucky water. Asthe motors would have any thin layers of expoxy / glue sand blasted off.From memory the motors were reasonably low powered.Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/11/2017, at 12:44 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I joined an ROV group and have found some pretty interesting thruster stuff. ?I think you have done the same? ?You can buy thrusters that are brushless and built to run in the water with no sealing. ?Sounds like they just epoxy the armature and replace the bushings with plastic.?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www..psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 13 12:30:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 06:30:43 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thrusters In-Reply-To: <1310109695.925970.1510578645489@mail.yahoo.com> References: <315325609.887591.1510573452499.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <315325609.887591.1510573452499@mail.yahoo.com> <85B24B4B-F289-43A5-A1FB-43886C287BF5@yahoo.com> <1310109695.925970.1510578645489@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3A89C285-3046-471F-B504-A1AD2341BE20@yahoo.com> Hank, didn't click that this was for your rov project. The brushless motors are a 3 phase motor & need a brushless motor controller. I am not sure how far you can run the controller from the motor. You would have to have the controller on the rov & signal wires in the sub. The motors & controllers are quite cheap through Hobby King or China. There are mounts that normally come with the motors. You could buy a 36V option. Hobby motors are classed in S's, 1S is 3.7V so 10S is 37V. They come in two flavours, sensored & uncensored. Sensored have rough start up & low speed characteristics under load. However if you go with sensored then you have to coat the sensor board, & I'm not sure how the sensors will perform with a coating on them. The company blue robotics has the whole thruster minus the speed controller for $169- https://www.bluerobotics.com/store/thrusters/t200-thruster/ Well worth the price for the time you'll save. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/11/2017, at 2:10 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Yes they are low powered, but that works for me because I am not dragging a 300 foot tether. My tether will be 50 feet. Do the brushless motors need a special controller? or will a PWM controller work? We tend to design and build things to last for an unrealistic life span. You mentioned a while back about water bearings lasting only 2,000 hrs. I doubt any Psub will see 2,000 hrs in its entire life time. If an 119 dollar ROV motor lasts 100 hr, I would get several years out of it. I am very realistic about spending versus life expectancy. > Hank > > On Monday, November 13, 2017, 5:08:40 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > yes there is a lot of DIY in some of those groups. > I did run a motor without a housing & things like the magnets got rusty. > I don't think they would stand up to sea water & any mucky water. As > the motors would have any thin layers of expoxy / glue sand blasted off. > From memory the motors were reasonably low powered. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 14/11/2017, at 12:44 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> I joined an ROV group and have found some pretty interesting thruster stuff. I think you have done the same? You can buy thrusters that are brushless and built to run in the water with no sealing. Sounds like they just epoxy the armature and replace the bushings with plastic. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www..psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 13 12:54:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 06:54:46 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thrusters In-Reply-To: <3A89C285-3046-471F-B504-A1AD2341BE20@yahoo.com> References: <315325609.887591.1510573452499.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <315325609.887591.1510573452499@mail.yahoo.com> <85B24B4B-F289-43A5-A1FB-43886C287BF5@yahoo.com> <1310109695.925970.1510578645489@mail.yahoo.com> <3A89C285-3046-471F-B504-A1AD2341BE20@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <929FC7CF-92A0-4F54-BEEA-FA7443EDFD6B@yahoo.com> Hank, additionally you have to replace the propeller shaft with stainless. It is a press fit into the bell ( outer spinning part) you also need to cut a few circlip grooves. Should mention that there are inrunner & outrunner brushless motors. You are wanting the outrunner as they have a lower rpm for a given size & more torque. There is an important term "kv" which is no load revs per volt applied. You can have the same size motor with the option of several different kv's due to the motor windings. You want the lowest kv if you are going direct drive. Mine are 6374 motors (63 diameter 74 length) with a 60kv rating. I had mine especially wound but you can now buy them off the shelf. There are some pretty cheap rovs that would save you a lot of time & learning, however these little motors are amazing & worth playing with. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/11/2017, at 6:30 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, > didn't click that this was for your rov project. > The brushless motors are a 3 phase motor & need a brushless motor > controller. I am not sure how far you can run the controller from the motor. > You would have to have the controller on the rov & signal wires in the sub.. > The motors & controllers are quite cheap through Hobby King or China. > There are mounts that normally come with the motors. > You could buy a 36V option. Hobby motors are classed in S's, 1S is 3.7V > so 10S is 37V. > They come in two flavours, sensored & uncensored. Sensored have rough > start up & low speed characteristics under load. However if you go with > sensored then you have to coat the sensor board, & I'm not sure how the > sensors will perform with a coating on them. > The company blue robotics has the whole thruster minus the speed controller > for $169- > https://www.bluerobotics..com/store/thrusters/t200-thruster/ > Well worth the price for the time you'll save. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 14/11/2017, at 2:10 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> Yes they are low powered, but that works for me because I am not dragging a 300 foot tether. My tether will be 50 feet. Do the brushless motors need a special controller? or will a PWM controller work? We tend to design and build things to last for an unrealistic life span. You mentioned a while back about water bearings lasting only 2,000 hrs. I doubt any Psub will see 2,000 hrs in its entire life time. If an 119 dollar ROV motor lasts 100 hr, I would get several years out of it. I am very realistic about spending versus life expectancy. >> Hank >> >> On Monday, November 13, 2017, 5:08:40 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> yes there is a lot of DIY in some of those groups. >> I did run a motor without a housing & things like the magnets got rusty. >> I don't think they would stand up to sea water & any mucky water. As >> the motors would have any thin layers of expoxy / glue sand blasted off. >> From memory the motors were reasonably low powered. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 14/11/2017, at 12:44 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> I joined an ROV group and have found some pretty interesting thruster stuff. I think you have done the same? You can buy thrusters that are brushless and built to run in the water with no sealing. Sounds like they just epoxy the armature and replace the bushings with plastic. >>> Hank >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www..psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 13 13:43:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 18:43:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thrusters In-Reply-To: <929FC7CF-92A0-4F54-BEEA-FA7443EDFD6B@yahoo.com> References: <315325609.887591.1510573452499.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <315325609.887591.1510573452499@mail.yahoo.com> <85B24B4B-F289-43A5-A1FB-43886C287BF5@yahoo.com> <1310109695.925970.1510578645489@mail.yahoo.com> <3A89C285-3046-471F-B504-A1AD2341BE20@yahoo.com> <929FC7CF-92A0-4F54-BEEA-FA7443EDFD6B@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <711129412.1183514.1510598620279@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I will but the ready made thrusters, they are dirt cheap. ?I will look at a built ROV, but I want it rated for 3,000 feet as it will also ride on Elementary 3000.Hank On Monday, November 13, 2017, 10:55:07 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,additionally you have to replace the propeller shaft with stainless.It is a press fit into the bell ( outer spinning part) you also need to?cut a few circlip grooves.Should mention that there are inrunner & outrunner brushless motors.You are wanting the outrunner as they have a lower rpm for a givensize & more torque. There is an important term "kv" which is no load revsper volt applied. You can have the same size motor with the option ofseveral different kv's due to the motor windings. You want the lowestkv if you are going direct drive. Mine are 6374 motors (63 diameter 74 length)with a 60kv rating. ?I had mine especially wound but you can now buy themoff the shelf.?There are some pretty cheap rovs that would save you a lot of time& learning, however these little motors are amazing & worth playing with..Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/11/2017, at 6:30 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,didn't click that this was for your rov project.The brushless motors are a 3 phase motor & need a brushless motorcontroller. I am not sure how far you can run the controller from the motor.You would have to have the controller on the rov & signal wires in the sub.The motors & controllers are quite cheap through Hobby King or China.There are mounts that normally come with the motors.You could buy a 36V option. Hobby motors are classed in S's, ?1S is 3..7Vso 10S is 37V.They come in two flavours, sensored & uncensored. Sensored have roughstart up & low speed characteristics under load. However if you go withsensored then you have to coat the sensor board, & I'm not sure how thesensors will perform with a coating on them.The company blue robotics has the whole thruster minus the speed controllerfor $169-https://www.bluerobotics..com/store/thrusters/t200-thruster/Well worth the price for the time you'll save.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/11/2017, at 2:10 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,Yes they are low powered, but that works for me because I am not dragging a 300 foot tether. ?My tether will be 50 feet. ?Do the brushless motors need a special controller? ?or will a PWM controller work? ?We tend to design and build things to last for an unrealistic life span. ?You mentioned a while back about water bearings lasting only 2,000 hrs. ?I doubt any Psub will see 2,000 hrs in its entire life time. ?If an 119 dollar ROV motor lasts 100 hr, I would get several years out of it. ?I am very realistic about spending versus life expectancy.Hank On Monday, November 13, 2017, 5:08:40 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,yes there is a lot of DIY in some of those groups.I did run a motor without a housing & things like the magnets got rusty.I don't think they would stand up to sea water & any mucky water. Asthe motors would have any thin layers of expoxy / glue sand blasted off.From memory the motors were reasonably low powered.Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/11/2017, at 12:44 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I joined an ROV group and have found some pretty interesting thruster stuff. ?I think you have done the same? ?You can buy thrusters that are brushless and built to run in the water with no sealing. ?Sounds like they just epoxy the armature and replace the bushings with plastic.?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www..psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 13 14:40:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 08:40:58 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thrusters In-Reply-To: <711129412.1183514.1510598620279@mail.yahoo.com> References: <315325609.887591.1510573452499.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <315325609.887591.1510573452499@mail.yahoo.com> <85B24B4B-F289-43A5-A1FB-43886C287BF5@yahoo.com> <1310109695.925970.1510578645489@mail.yahoo.com> <3A89C285-3046-471F-B504-A1AD2341BE20@yahoo.com> <929FC7CF-92A0-4F54-BEEA-FA7443EDFD6B@yahoo.com> <711129412.1183514.1510598620279@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, the electronic speed controllers (esc) generally don't have a reverse as they are normally for planes & helicopters. They can say "reverse" in their specs but this generally refers to the ability to program it to go in the other direction. ( big trap) I believe some boat & car escs have a proper reverse function. I have the V esc & Kelly controller that does reverse. Nearly all speed controllers operate off a radio signal from a transmitter. They have a receiver that plugs in to them for receiving this signal. There are units around that plug in to your esc that don't operate off the transmitter. See the robot shop for these. I think also Hobby King has some. You could however use a radio control unit in your sub, if you have the receiver also in your sub & wired to the esc, through a through hull. The speed controllers need to be programmed either with a programming card or via a complicated system of switching from your transmitter, or via a program loaded to your PC. There are a number of programming parameters & you need to be familiar with the RC terminology to program them. So you are walking head first in to a technological rats nest! BUT... if you buy a unit like the thruster I linked to, you should be able to buy their esc with the parameters set up ready to go & also some type of joystick input for it. If you can't buy it, talk to them as they would set you up with what you want for a price. Let me know what you are going to do before you pull the trigger & I will tell you what I think. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/11/2017, at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I will but the ready made thrusters, they are dirt cheap. I will look at a built ROV, but I want it rated for 3,000 feet as it will also ride on Elementary 3000. > Hank > > On Monday, November 13, 2017, 10:55:07 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > additionally you have to replace the propeller shaft with stainless. > It is a press fit into the bell ( outer spinning part) you also need to > cut a few circlip grooves. > Should mention that there are inrunner & outrunner brushless motors. > You are wanting the outrunner as they have a lower rpm for a given > size & more torque. There is an important term "kv" which is no load revs > per volt applied. You can have the same size motor with the option of > several different kv's due to the motor windings. You want the lowest > kv if you are going direct drive. Mine are 6374 motors (63 diameter 74 length) > with a 60kv rating. I had mine especially wound but you can now buy them > off the shelf. > There are some pretty cheap rovs that would save you a lot of time > & learning, however these little motors are amazing & worth playing with.. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 14/11/2017, at 6:30 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > > Hank, > didn't click that this was for your rov project. > The brushless motors are a 3 phase motor & need a brushless motor > controller. I am not sure how far you can run the controller from the motor. > You would have to have the controller on the rov & signal wires in the sub.. > The motors & controllers are quite cheap through Hobby King or China. > There are mounts that normally come with the motors. > You could buy a 36V option. Hobby motors are classed in S's, 1S is 3..7V > so 10S is 37V. > They come in two flavours, sensored & uncensored. Sensored have rough > start up & low speed characteristics under load. However if you go with > sensored then you have to coat the sensor board, & I'm not sure how the > sensors will perform with a coating on them. > The company blue robotics has the whole thruster minus the speed controller > for $169- > https://www.bluerobotics..com/store/thrusters/t200-thruster/ > Well worth the price for the time you'll save. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 14/11/2017, at 2:10 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> Yes they are low powered, but that works for me because I am not dragging a 300 foot tether. My tether will be 50 feet. Do the brushless motors need a special controller? or will a PWM controller work? We tend to design and build things to last for an unrealistic life span. You mentioned a while back about water bearings lasting only 2,000 hrs. I doubt any Psub will see 2,000 hrs in its entire life time. If an 119 dollar ROV motor lasts 100 hr, I would get several years out of it. I am very realistic about spending versus life expectancy. >> Hank >> >> On Monday, November 13, 2017, 5:08:40 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> yes there is a lot of DIY in some of those groups. >> I did run a motor without a housing & things like the magnets got rusty. >> I don't think they would stand up to sea water & any mucky water. As >> the motors would have any thin layers of expoxy / glue sand blasted off. >> From memory the motors were reasonably low powered. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 14/11/2017, at 12:44 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> I joined an ROV group and have found some pretty interesting thruster stuff. I think you have done the same? You can buy thrusters that are brushless and built to run in the water with no sealing. Sounds like they just epoxy the armature and replace the bushings with plastic. >>> Hank >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www..psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 13 17:32:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:32:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] thrusters In-Reply-To: References: <315325609.887591.1510573452499.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <315325609.887591.1510573452499@mail.yahoo.com> <85B24B4B-F289-43A5-A1FB-43886C287BF5@yahoo.com> <1310109695.925970.1510578645489@mail.yahoo.com> <3A89C285-3046-471F-B504-A1AD2341BE20@yahoo.com> <929FC7CF-92A0-4F54-BEEA-FA7443EDFD6B@yahoo.com> <711129412.1183514.1510598620279@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1630861699.1337079.1510612378732@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I won't make a move without your input. ?Hank On Monday, November 13, 2017, 12:41:21 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,the electronic speed controllers (esc) generally don't have a reverse as they are normallyfor planes & helicopters. They can say "reverse" in their specs but this generallyrefers to the ability to program it to go in the other direction. ( big trap)I believe some boat & car escs have a proper reverse function. I have the V esc &Kelly controller that does reverse.Nearly all speed controllers operate off a radio signal from a transmitter. Theyhave a receiver that plugs in to them for receiving this signal. There are unitsaround that plug in to your esc that don't operate off the transmitter. See the robotshop for these. I think also Hobby King has some. You could however use a radiocontrol unit in your sub, if you have the receiver also in your sub & wired to the esc,through a through hull.The speed controllers need to be programmed either with a programming cardor via a complicated system of switching from your transmitter, or via a programloaded to your PC. There are a number of programming parameters & you needto be familiar with the RC terminology to program them. So you are walking head?first in to a technological rats nest!BUT... if you buy a unit like the thruster I linked to, you should be able to buy theiresc with the parameters set up ready to go & also some type of joystick input for it. ??If you can't buy it, talk to them as they would set you up with what you want for a?price.?Let me know what you are going to do before you pull the trigger & I will tellyou what I think.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/11/2017, at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I will but the ready made thrusters, they are dirt cheap. ?I will look at a built ROV, but I want it rated for 3,000 feet as it will also ride on Elementary 3000.Hank On Monday, November 13, 2017, 10:55:07 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,additionally you have to replace the propeller shaft with stainless.It is a press fit into the bell ( outer spinning part) you also need to?cut a few circlip grooves.Should mention that there are inrunner & outrunner brushless motors.You are wanting the outrunner as they have a lower rpm for a givensize & more torque. There is an important term "kv" which is no load revsper volt applied. You can have the same size motor with the option ofseveral different kv's due to the motor windings. You want the lowestkv if you are going direct drive. Mine are 6374 motors (63 diameter 74 length)with a 60kv rating. ?I had mine especially wound but you can now buy themoff the shelf.?There are some pretty cheap rovs that would save you a lot of time& learning, however these little motors are amazing & worth playing with..Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/11/2017, at 6:30 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,didn't click that this was for your rov project.The brushless motors are a 3 phase motor & need a brushless motorcontroller. I am not sure how far you can run the controller from the motor.You would have to have the controller on the rov & signal wires in the sub.The motors & controllers are quite cheap through Hobby King or China.There are mounts that normally come with the motors.You could buy a 36V option. Hobby motors are classed in S's, ?1S is 3..7Vso 10S is 37V.They come in two flavours, sensored & uncensored. Sensored have roughstart up & low speed characteristics under load. However if you go withsensored then you have to coat the sensor board, & I'm not sure how thesensors will perform with a coating on them.The company blue robotics has the whole thruster minus the speed controllerfor $169-https://www.bluerobotics..com/store/thrusters/t200-thruster/Well worth the price for the time you'll save.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/11/2017, at 2:10 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,Yes they are low powered, but that works for me because I am not dragging a 300 foot tether. ?My tether will be 50 feet. ?Do the brushless motors need a special controller? ?or will a PWM controller work? ?We tend to design and build things to last for an unrealistic life span. ?You mentioned a while back about water bearings lasting only 2,000 hrs. ?I doubt any Psub will see 2,000 hrs in its entire life time. ?If an 119 dollar ROV motor lasts 100 hr, I would get several years out of it. ?I am very realistic about spending versus life expectancy.Hank On Monday, November 13, 2017, 5:08:40 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,yes there is a lot of DIY in some of those groups.I did run a motor without a housing & things like the magnets got rusty.I don't think they would stand up to sea water & any mucky water. Asthe motors would have any thin layers of expoxy / glue sand blasted off.From memory the motors were reasonably low powered.Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/11/2017, at 12:44 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I joined an ROV group and have found some pretty interesting thruster stuff. ?I think you have done the same? ?You can buy thrusters that are brushless and built to run in the water with no sealing. ?Sounds like they just epoxy the armature and replace the bushings with plastic.?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www..psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www..psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 13 20:37:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 01:37:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] propeller size References: <385757569.1557403.1510623461569.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <385757569.1557403.1510623461569@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,Gamma has always run on a 24v 2 hp motor. ?The 24v 2 hp motor is simply a 36v motor run on 24v with reduced rpm. ?I am thinking about running the motor on 36v to increase surface speed. ?This is very simple because the controller will also run on both voltages. ?My question is, will the propeller still be sized correctly. ?I am assuming the extra rpm is supported by the extra hp, or am I over simplifying it.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 13 21:38:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 18:38:32 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] propeller size Message-ID: <20171113183832.31060110@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 13 22:31:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 16:31:12 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] propeller size In-Reply-To: <385757569.1557403.1510623461569@mail.yahoo.com> References: <385757569.1557403.1510623461569.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <385757569.1557403.1510623461569@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <644882F1-0588-4F0A-83B7-F48E4381B3C6@yahoo.com> Hank, I am not sure but I think that would be OK. If you can measure the amps you are drawing & the speed your sub is doing on the surface, you could make some conclusions from that, & I think that is the only way to get some really good results. A bollard test in a pool doesn't take in to consideration the forward movement of the submarine, & there are also various effects from the sides of the test pool & circulating currents. I will have to do this with my thrusters but it is not perfect. If you can test the amp draw & speed at both voltages then you can say "Is the gain in speed worth the extra power draw on the battery!" Are your propellers plastic? I don't think they are but as an aside, I have wondered whether the tips bend when you put an extra load on them. If say you are producing 100lb thrust, that thrust would be distributed across the propeller & surely they wouldn't work efficiently with too much load on them! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/11/2017, at 2:37 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > Gamma has always run on a 24v 2 hp motor. The 24v 2 hp motor is simply a 36v motor run on 24v with reduced rpm. I am thinking about running the motor on 36v to increase surface speed. This is very simple because the controller will also run on both voltages. My question is, will the propeller still be sized correctly. I am assuming the extra rpm is supported by the extra hp, or am I over simplifying it. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 13 23:17:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 04:17:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] propeller size In-Reply-To: <644882F1-0588-4F0A-83B7-F48E4381B3C6@yahoo.com> References: <385757569.1557403.1510623461569.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <385757569.1557403.1510623461569@mail.yahoo.com> <644882F1-0588-4F0A-83B7-F48E4381B3C6@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <249704487.1660420.1510633079663@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks guys, I do have an amp gauge on the drive motor and at 24 v the motor is not working hard at all and it stays luke warm.Hank On Monday, November 13, 2017, 8:31:38 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I am not sure but I think that would be OK.?If you can measure the amps you are drawing & the speed your sub isdoing on the surface, you could make some conclusions from that, &I think that is the only way to get some really good results. A bollardtest in a pool doesn't take in to consideration the forward movement ofthe submarine, & there are also various effects from the sides of the testpool & circulating currents. I will have to do this with my thrusters but itis not perfect.If you can test the amp draw & speed at both voltages then you can say"Is the gain in speed worth the extra power draw on the battery!"Are your propellers plastic? I don't think they are but as an aside, I have?wondered whether the tips bend when you put an extra load on them.?If say you are producing 100lb thrust, that thrust would be distributed across?the propeller & surely they wouldn't work efficiently with too much load on them!Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/11/2017, at 2:37 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Gamma has always run on a 24v 2 hp motor. ?The 24v 2 hp motor is simply a 36v motor run on 24v with reduced rpm. ?I am thinking about running the motor on 36v to increase surface speed. ?This is very simple because the controller will also run on both voltages.. ?My question is, will the propeller still be sized correctly. ?I am assuming the extra rpm is supported by the extra hp, or am I over simplifying it.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 14 17:43:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 22:43:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcement References: <2049025568.165575.1510699426143.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2049025568.165575.1510699426143@mail.yahoo.com> HI Sean,I am taking your suggestion and ordering a heavy ring to mount my motor assembly to rather than use the original pipe assembly. ?. ?It will be like a port frame but with a 5\8 steel plate with a prop shaft tube weld to the centre with giant gussets. ?Normally I would weld in a ring that is several time heavier than it needs to be, but in this case I can not get crazy with weight. ?The weight is important because it is still an escape pod. ?I have sized the ring to be 20% heavier than the material removed from the sphere. ?I am assuming that the 5\8 plate that is bolted to the ring adds support to the ring. ?I realize the added plate is only as strong as the bolts securing it, but there must be a benefit, or does this not count??Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 14 19:53:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 19:53:11 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcement In-Reply-To: <2049025568.165575.1510699426143@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2049025568.165575.1510699426143.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2049025568.165575.1510699426143@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If you were to meticulously torque the bolts to a sufficient preload to ensure that the connection could reliably carry shear forces, then technically it would carry some load; however, it is unwise to rely on that for the purpose of determining required penetration reinforcement - certainly if the forces are transferred entirely in shear. If instead, the plate was loaded in radial compression (i.e. inset into the seat and bearing on the outer cylindrical surface), then there would be some direct load transfer, but the exercise is academic. As with an acrylic window, design the ring under the assumption that the seat ring and associated reinforcement must carry all hull stresses. The flat plate that bolts on should then be designed in accordance with the rules for unstayed flat heads (ABS Steel Vessel Rules). Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 14, 2017, 15:43, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > HI Sean, > I am taking your suggestion and ordering a heavy ring to mount my motor assembly to rather than use the original pipe assembly. . It will be like a port frame but with a 5\8 steel plate with a prop shaft tube weld to the centre with giant gussets. Normally I would weld in a ring that is several time heavier than it needs to be, but in this case I can not get crazy with weight. The weight is important because it is still an escape pod. I have sized the ring to be 20% heavier than the material removed from the sphere. I am assuming that the 5\8 plate that is bolted to the ring adds support to the ring. I realize the added plate is only as strong as the bolts securing it, but there must be a benefit, or does this not count? > Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 14 20:09:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 01:09:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcement In-Reply-To: References: <2049025568.165575.1510699426143.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2049025568.165575.1510699426143@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1305212039.199871.1510708159501@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks' Sean,I will add thickness to the ring, ?for a bigger comfort zone. ?The flat plate is original to Gamma so no worries about it failing.Hank On Tuesday, November 14, 2017, 5:53:37 PM MST, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If you were to meticulously torque the bolts to a sufficient preload to ensure that the connection could reliably carry shear forces, then technically it would carry some load; however, it is unwise to rely on that for the purpose of determining required penetration reinforcement - certainly if the forces are transferred entirely in shear. If instead, the plate was loaded in radial compression (i.e. inset into the seat and bearing on the outer cylindrical surface), then there would be some direct load transfer, but the exercise is academic. As with an acrylic window, design the ring under the assumption that the seat ring and associated reinforcement must carry all hull stresses. The flat plate that bolts on should then be designed in accordance with the rules for unstayed flat heads (ABS Steel Vessel Rules). Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 14, 2017, 15:43, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: HI Sean,I am taking your suggestion and ordering a heavy ring to mount my motor assembly to rather than use the original pipe assembly. ?. ?It will be like a port frame but with a 5\8 steel plate with a prop shaft tube weld to the centre with giant gussets. ?Normally I would weld in a ring that is several time heavier than it needs to be, but in this case I can not get crazy with weight. ?The weight is important because it is still an escape pod. ?I have sized the ring to be 20% heavier than the material removed from the sphere. ?I am assuming that the 5\8 plate that is bolted to the ring adds support to the ring. ?I realize the added plate is only as strong as the bolts securing it, but there must be a benefit, or does this not count??Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 21 18:33:27 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 23:33:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcement References: <1674878406.645460.1511307207364.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1674878406.645460.1511307207364@mail.yahoo.com> Been quiet for a week now anybody home ? -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 11/14/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcement To: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2017, 7:09 PM Thanks' Sean,I will add thickness to the ring, ?for a bigger comfort zone. ?The flat plate is original to Gamma so no worries about it failing.Hank On Tuesday, November 14, 2017, 5:53:37 PM MST, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If you were to meticulously torque the bolts to a sufficient preload to ensure that the connection could reliably carry shear forces, then technically it would carry some load; however, it is unwise to rely on that for the purpose of determining required penetration reinforcement - certainly if the forces are transferred entirely in shear. If instead, the plate was loaded in radial compression (i.e. inset into the seat and bearing on the outer cylindrical surface), then there would be some direct load transfer, but the exercise is academic. As with an acrylic window, design the ring under the assumption that the seat ring and associated reinforcement must carry all hull stresses. The flat plate that bolts on should then be designed in accordance with the rules for unstayed flat heads (ABS Steel Vessel Rules). Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 14, 2017, 15:43, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: HI Sean,I am taking your suggestion and ordering a heavy ring to mount my motor assembly to rather than use the original pipe assembly. ?. ?It will be like a port frame but with a 5\8 steel plate with a prop shaft tube weld to the centre with giant gussets. ?Normally I would weld in a ring that is several time heavier than it needs to be, but in this case I can not get crazy with weight. ?The weight is important because it is still an escape pod. ?I have sized the ring to be 20% heavier than the material removed from the sphere. ?I am assuming that the 5\8 plate that is bolted to the ring adds support to the ring. ?I realize the added plate is only as strong as the bolts securing it, but there must be a benefit, or does this not count??Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 21 19:30:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 00:30:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcement In-Reply-To: <1674878406.645460.1511307207364@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1674878406.645460.1511307207364.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1674878406.645460.1511307207364@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <933319881.803954.1511310612043@mail.yahoo.com> Yes Pete, still here ;-) ?been nursing an injury to my hand, hand versus mitre saw cutting aluminum for my manipulator. ?Hand lost the battle. ;-(Hank On Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 4:33:50 PM MST, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Been quiet for a week now anybody home ? -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 11/14/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcement To: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2017, 7:09 PM ? ? ? ? ? ? Thanks' Sean,I will add thickness to the ring, ?for a bigger comfort zone. ?The flat plate is original to Gamma so no worries about it failing.Hank ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? On Tuesday, November 14, 2017, 5:53:37 PM MST, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? If you were to meticulously torque the bolts to a sufficient preload to ensure that the connection could reliably carry shear forces, then technically it would carry some load; however, it is unwise to rely on that for the purpose of determining required penetration reinforcement - certainly if the forces are transferred entirely in shear. If instead, the plate was loaded in radial compression (i.e. inset into the seat and bearing on the outer cylindrical surface), then there would be some direct load transfer, but the exercise is academic.? As with an acrylic window, design the ring under the assumption that the seat ring and associated reinforcement must carry all hull stresses. The flat plate that bolts on should then be designed in accordance with the rules for unstayed flat heads (ABS Steel Vessel Rules). Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 14, 2017, 15:43, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: HI Sean,I am taking your suggestion and ordering a heavy ring to mount my motor assembly to rather than use the original pipe assembly. ?. ?It will be like a port frame but with a 5\8 steel plate with a prop shaft tube weld to the centre with giant gussets. ?Normally I would weld in a ring that is several time heavier than it needs to be, but in this case I can not get crazy with weight. ?The weight is important because it is still an escape pod. ?I have sized the ring to be 20% heavier than the material removed from the sphere. ?I am assuming that the 5\8 plate that is bolted to the ring adds support to the ring. ?I realize the added plate is only as strong as the bolts securing it, but there must be a benefit, or does this not count??Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 21 19:50:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 13:50:41 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcement In-Reply-To: <933319881.803954.1511310612043@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1674878406.645460.1511307207364.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1674878406.645460.1511307207364@mail.yahoo.com> <933319881.803954.1511310612043@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8E4B308D-FB88-4CAE-80E8-18CA4FC7E7B6@yahoo.com> I'm here Pete, also wondered if I had dropped out of the loop. Hope the hand's not too bad Hank. I have part of a finger missing; a set of metal rollers won that battle! Been doing an on line ladder logic programming course to give me some wisdom as to what plc to buy & what inputs I should be sourcing it. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 22/11/2017, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Yes Pete, still here ;-) been nursing an injury to my hand, hand versus mitre saw cutting aluminum for my manipulator. Hand lost the battle. ;-( > Hank > > On Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 4:33:50 PM MST, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Been quiet for a week now anybody home ? > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 11/14/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcement > To: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2017, 7:09 PM > > > Thanks' Sean,I will add > thickness to the ring, for a bigger comfort zone. The > flat plate is original to Gamma so no worries about it > failing.Hank > > > > > > > On Tuesday, November 14, 2017, > 5:53:37 PM MST, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > > > > If you > were to meticulously torque the bolts to a sufficient > preload to ensure that the connection could reliably carry > shear forces, then technically it would carry some load; > however, it is unwise to rely on that for the purpose of > determining required penetration reinforcement - certainly > if the forces are transferred entirely in shear. If instead, > the plate was loaded in radial compression (i.e. inset into > the seat and bearing on the outer cylindrical surface), then > there would be some direct load transfer, but the exercise > is academic. As with an acrylic window, design the ring > under the assumption that the seat ring and associated > reinforcement must carry all hull stresses. The flat plate > that bolts on should then be designed in accordance with the > rules for unstayed flat heads (ABS Steel Vessel Rules). > > Sean > > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Nov 14, 2017, 15:43, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > HI Sean,I am > taking your suggestion and ordering a heavy ring to mount my > motor assembly to rather than use the original pipe > assembly. . It will be like a port frame but with a > 5\8 steel plate with a prop shaft tube weld to the > centre with giant gussets. Normally I would weld in a ring > that is several time heavier than it needs to be, but in > this case I can not get crazy with weight. The weight is > important because it is still an escape pod. I have sized > the ring to be 20% heavier than the material removed from > the sphere. I am assuming that the 5\8 plate that is > bolted to the ring adds support to the ring. I realize the > added plate is only as strong as the bolts securing it, but > there must be a benefit, or does this not > count? Hank_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 21 21:43:34 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 18:43:34 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reinforcement Message-ID: <20171121184334.30FD9D2C@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 21 22:47:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 22:47:47 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Injuries In-Reply-To: <20171121184334.30FD9D2C@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20171121184334.30FD9D2C@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <721bd3cc-915b-010f-16b4-4cc906b712df@ohiohills.com> Many moons ago, I was on a mailing list for boatbuilders.?? A bit of wisdom imparted was that if one has all their fingers and other body parts undamaged one is obviously not truly serious about building boats.? Those guys were building sailboats, but the concept is apparently true of submarine builders. Airplane builders complain only about the cost of materials. There's never any mention of personal injury.? Hmmm ... Mike --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Nov 22 05:12:49 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 10:12:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Injuries In-Reply-To: <721bd3cc-915b-010f-16b4-4cc906b712df@ohiohills.com> References: <20171121184334.30FD9D2C@m0117460.ppops.net> <721bd3cc-915b-010f-16b4-4cc906b712df@ohiohills.com> Message-ID: <1731889794.1034634.1511345569812@mail.yahoo.com> I believe that the most dangerous part of owning a submarine is building it. ?I have not been hurt operating it.?Hank On Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 8:48:44 PM MST, Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Many moons ago, I was on a mailing list for boatbuilders.?? A bit of wisdom imparted was that if one has all their fingers and other body parts undamaged one is obviously not truly serious about building boats.? Those guys were building sailboats, but the concept is apparently true of submarine builders. Airplane builders complain only about the cost of materials. There's never any mention of personal injury.? Hmmm ... Mike --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Nov 22 07:25:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 07:25:30 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Injuries In-Reply-To: <1731889794.1034634.1511345569812@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20171121184334.30FD9D2C@m0117460.ppops.net> <721bd3cc-915b-010f-16b4-4cc906b712df@ohiohills.com> <1731889794.1034634.1511345569812@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I could not agree more - all of the occasions of actual danger have been shop accidents. I once had a chain lift fail well below its rated load and drop the sub. Just the other day I was drilling a small hole when the bit exploded. I don't mean that it just broke, it actually exploded into umpteen pieces of shrapnel which were embedded in my arms and in my face around my safety glasses. Take precautions. Alec On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 5:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I believe that the most dangerous part of owning a submarine is building > it. I have not been hurt operating it. > Hank > > On Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 8:48:44 PM MST, Michael Holt via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Many moons ago, I was on a mailing list for boatbuilders. A bit of > wisdom imparted was that if one has all their fingers and other body > parts undamaged one is obviously not truly serious about building > boats. Those guys were building sailboats, but the concept is > apparently true of submarine builders. > > Airplane builders complain only about the cost of materials. There's > never any mention of personal injury. Hmmm ... > > > Mike > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 23 10:06:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 10:06:00 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Calculating Scrubber Residence/Contact Time Message-ID: <000201d3646c$946551f0$bd2ff5d0$@indy.rr.com> All, I am considering reducing the dimensions (length) of my scrubber to fit into a vertical mounting arrangement in my K-250. I believe I have a pretty good handle on sorting out the impact to the performance with the exception of residence/contact time. I know the Reynolds factor for my media, chamber length, diameter and the flow rate from the fan. Anyone have a general formula? Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 23 13:40:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 07:40:31 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Calculating Scrubber Residence/Contact Time In-Reply-To: <000201d3646c$946551f0$bd2ff5d0$@indy.rr.com> References: <000201d3646c$946551f0$bd2ff5d0$@indy.rr.com> Message-ID: Steve, a number of years back I contacted "Molecular Products", as I had their product "sofnalime". They had a computer that considered the volume of your submarine, the CO2 % range you needed to stay within etc & worked out how many times an hour the air volume of your submarine had to go through the scrubber. I was under the impression they really enjoyed the opportunity to play around with their program. I will be contacting them again when I get to that stage. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 24/11/2017, at 4:06 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > All, I am considering reducing the dimensions (length) of my scrubber to fit into a vertical mounting arrangement in my K-250. I believe I have a pretty good handle on sorting out the impact to the performance with the exception of residence/contact time. > > I know the Reynolds factor for my media, chamber length, diameter and the flow rate from the fan. > > Anyone have a general formula? > > Steve > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 23 14:26:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 19:26:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Calculating Scrubber Residence/Contact Time In-Reply-To: <000201d3646c$946551f0$bd2ff5d0$@indy.rr.com> References: <000201d3646c$946551f0$bd2ff5d0$@indy.rr.com> Message-ID: <1327185234.2053273.1511465201321@mail.yahoo.com> Steve,I read somewhere that the scrubber needs to be two times as tall as it is wide. ?I have followed that rule ever since. ?Then the theory about as long a soak time as possible comes into play. ?My feeling is that that is only important with a closed system like a re-breather. ?I base that on Gamma's original scrubber witch was about 10 inches in dia and 6 inches tall with an open top and a hurricane force fan drawing air through it. ?It makes sense to me that it does not matter how long the soak time is in a submarine environment as long as you have air flow over the media. ?I would do what you have to to make it fit, then play with flow rates. ?The key to a good scrubber seems to be to use good media, like Soda Sorb HPHank On Thursday, November 23, 2017, 8:06:42 AM MST, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: All, I am considering reducing the dimensions (length) of my scrubber ?to fit into a vertical mounting arrangement in my K-250. ?I believe I have a pretty good handle on sorting out the impact to the performance with the exception of residence/contact time. ? I know the Reynolds factor for my media, chamber length, diameter and the flow rate from the fan. ? Anyone have a general formula? ? Steve _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 23 14:37:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 19:37:08 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Calculating Scrubber Residence/Contact Time In-Reply-To: <1327185234.2053273.1511465201321@mail.yahoo.com> References: <000201d3646c$946551f0$bd2ff5d0$@indy.rr.com> <1327185234.2053273.1511465201321@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was thinking when i get to that point, of mounting my CO2 meter at the exhaust port of the scrubber and using it to dial in the best flow rate. Rick On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 9:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Steve, > I read somewhere that the scrubber needs to be two times as tall as it is > wide. I have followed that rule ever since. Then the theory about as long > a soak time as possible comes into play. My feeling is that that is only > important with a closed system like a re-breather. I base that on Gamma's > original scrubber witch was about 10 inches in dia and 6 inches tall with > an open top and a hurricane force fan drawing air through it. It makes > sense to me that it does not matter how long the soak time is in a > submarine environment as long as you have air flow over the media. I would > do what you have to to make it fit, then play with flow rates. The key to > a good scrubber seems to be to use good media, like Soda Sorb HP > Hank > > On Thursday, November 23, 2017, 8:06:42 AM MST, Steve McQueen via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > All, I am considering reducing the dimensions (length) of my scrubber to > fit into a vertical mounting arrangement in my K-250. I believe I have a > pretty good handle on sorting out the impact to the performance with the > exception of residence/contact time. > > > > I know the Reynolds factor for my media, chamber length, diameter and the > flow rate from the fan. > > > > Anyone have a general formula? > > > > Steve > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 23 15:14:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 09:14:15 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Calculating Scrubber Residence/Contact Time In-Reply-To: References: <000201d3646c$946551f0$bd2ff5d0$@indy.rr.com> <1327185234.2053273.1511465201321@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <87AAE9D9-65F0-47CE-845B-60E98F1AA5AF@yahoo.com> Rick, I would be cautious about positioning the CO2 sensor there as moisture is a bi-product of the CO2/absorbent reaction, & there would probably be a higher humidity reading near the exhaust. I assume this would not be good for the sensor & may effect readings. I am not sure if this moisture is significant enough to worry about but mentioning it in case! River is a bit of an expert with CO2 sensors, if he is listening in he may like to comment. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 24/11/2017, at 8:37 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I was thinking when i get to that point, of mounting my CO2 meter at the exhaust port of the scrubber and using it to dial in the best flow rate. > Rick > >> On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 9:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Steve, >> I read somewhere that the scrubber needs to be two times as tall as it is wide. I have followed that rule ever since. Then the theory about as long a soak time as possible comes into play. My feeling is that that is only important with a closed system like a re-breather. I base that on Gamma's original scrubber witch was about 10 inches in dia and 6 inches tall with an open top and a hurricane force fan drawing air through it. It makes sense to me that it does not matter how long the soak time is in a submarine environment as long as you have air flow over the media. I would do what you have to to make it fit, then play with flow rates. The key to a good scrubber seems to be to use good media, like Soda Sorb HP >> Hank >> >> On Thursday, November 23, 2017, 8:06:42 AM MST, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> All, I am considering reducing the dimensions (length) of my scrubber to fit into a vertical mounting arrangement in my K-250. I believe I have a pretty good handle on sorting out the impact to the performance with the exception of residence/contact time. >> >> >> >> I know the Reynolds factor for my media, chamber length, diameter and the flow rate from the fan. >> >> >> >> Anyone have a general formula? >> >> >> >> Steve >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 23 15:30:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 20:30:47 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Calculating Scrubber Residence/Contact Time In-Reply-To: <87AAE9D9-65F0-47CE-845B-60E98F1AA5AF@yahoo.com> References: <000201d3646c$946551f0$bd2ff5d0$@indy.rr.com> <1327185234.2053273.1511465201321@mail.yahoo.com> <87AAE9D9-65F0-47CE-845B-60E98F1AA5AF@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the input Alan. Looking forward to Rivers input. Rick On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 10:15 AM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > I would be cautious about positioning the CO2 sensor there as moisture is > a bi-product of the CO2/absorbent reaction, & there would probably be a > higher humidity reading near the exhaust. I assume this would not be good > for > the sensor & may effect readings. I am not sure if this moisture is > significant > enough to worry about but mentioning it in case! > River is a bit of an expert with CO2 sensors, if he is listening in he may > like > to comment. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 24/11/2017, at 8:37 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I was thinking when i get to that point, of mounting my CO2 meter at the > exhaust port of the scrubber and using it to dial in the best flow rate. > Rick > > On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 9:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Steve, >> I read somewhere that the scrubber needs to be two times as tall as it is >> wide. I have followed that rule ever since. Then the theory about as long >> a soak time as possible comes into play. My feeling is that that is only >> important with a closed system like a re-breather. I base that on Gamma's >> original scrubber witch was about 10 inches in dia and 6 inches tall with >> an open top and a hurricane force fan drawing air through it. It makes >> sense to me that it does not matter how long the soak time is in a >> submarine environment as long as you have air flow over the media. I would >> do what you have to to make it fit, then play with flow rates. The key to >> a good scrubber seems to be to use good media, like Soda Sorb HP >> Hank >> >> On Thursday, November 23, 2017, 8:06:42 AM MST, Steve McQueen via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> All, I am considering reducing the dimensions (length) of my scrubber to >> fit into a vertical mounting arrangement in my K-250. I believe I have a >> pretty good handle on sorting out the impact to the performance with the >> exception of residence/contact time. >> >> >> >> I know the Reynolds factor for my media, chamber length, diameter and the >> flow rate from the fan. >> >> >> >> Anyone have a general formula? >> >> >> >> Steve >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 23 21:48:13 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 20:48:13 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Calculating Scrubber Residence/Contact Time Message-ID: Rick- I don't believe any added humidity from mounting a CO2 sensor at the outlet of your scrubber will cause any issues. Everything inside a sub (that doesn't have A/C) should be designed with the expectation that the internal atmosphere will be at or close to 100% RH, and that condensation is to be expected. I've utilized a cheap NDIR CO2 sensor in an enclosure outside and have never had any condensation issues. NDIR (Nondispersive infrared) CO2 sensors function as mini spectrometers. They use infrared waves to energize gas molecules, which give off light at particular wavelengths based on the type of gas. Unfortunately, the wavelengths given off by CO2 are rather close to the wavelengths given off by H20, so water vapor would theoretically interfere with a measurement. For this reason, most (if not all) NDIR CO2 sensors include a humidity sensor so that they can compensate for this interference. Nothing to worry about there. I say go for it. A properly designed scrubber prior to breakthrough should be outputting close to 0 CO2. If the test is in the sub, just beware that that low reading at the exhaust might not be reflective of the well mixed air in the cabin that you are actually breathing. Hank- The Sodasorb CO2 absorbents manual states that most anesthesia CO2 scrubbers have a length-to-diameter ratio of 1.5:1. That seems to be the practical limit for designing a scrubber with a pressure drop suitable from being human lung powered. Definitely important if you're building an anesthesia machine or a diving rebreather, but less so if you're building a fan powered mechanical scrubber. Steve- A method to calculate the pressure drop across an axial scrubber is described in the previously mentioned Sodasorb manual: "The specific resistance, K, of 4-8 mesh soda lime is of the order of 1 mm of water pressure per centimeter per liter per minute (mmH2)?cm?L-1?min). The pressure drop (P) across an absorber packed correctly, will depend upon the flow rate (V), length (L), specific resistance and effective cross sectional area (A) of the absorber. This relationship may be expressed by the equation: P= (KLV)/A For an absorber with a soda lime compartment of 2 liters, at a flow of 60 liters per minute, P is less than 1 centimeter (cm) of water pressure if the length of the combined chambers is less than 18 cm and the diameter greater than 12 cm, a ratio of 1.5 to 1. At a flow rate of 100 liters per minute, which is the maximum respiratory flow expected in anesthetized adults, the pressure across the Sodasorb compartment would not exceed 1.5 cm water pressure. These values do not take into consideration the resistance effect of breathing circuit, endotracheal tubes, directional valves, and fittings. In modern equipment, resistance offered by these components usually exceeds that of Sodasorb absorbent." The maximum pressure for your blower should be listed on it's spreadsheet. I would start with the blower pressure, punch it into that equation to find flow rate, then finding the dwell time should be easy once you know the flow rate. I've been thinking alot about scrubber design lately. I definitely recommend anyone interested in designing a scrubber to read through that manual. Might try to formalize the dwell time math for axial and radial scrubbers. Thanks, -River J. Dolfi rdolfi7 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 23 22:11:45 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 22:11:45 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Calculating Scrubber Residence/Contact Time Message-ID: <201711240314.vAO3EZct011056@whoweb.com> Thanks. That helps. I will be curious to see how the actual test data with me in my sub compares to the calculated values. Originally I wanted the scrubber capacity to closely match my O2 capacity without needing to refill the media (60hrs.) but decided that wasn"t the best management strategy. A smaller scrubber with spare media is a better use of my space. Steve Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone On Nov 23, 2017 9:48 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Rick- I don't believe any added humidity from mounting a CO2 sensor at the outlet of your scrubber will cause any issues. > > Everything inside a sub (that doesn't have A/C) should be designed with the expectation that the internal atmosphere will be at or close to 100% RH, and that condensation is to be expected. I've utilized a cheap NDIR CO2 sensor in an enclosure outside and have never had any condensation issues. > > NDIR (Nondispersive infrared) CO2 sensors function as mini spectrometers. They use infrared waves to energize gas molecules, which give off light at particular wavelengths based on the type of gas. Unfortunately, the wavelengths given off by CO2 are rather close to the wavelengths given off by H20, so water vapor would theoretically interfere with a measurement. > > For this reason, most (if not all) NDIR CO2 sensors include a humidity sensor so that they can compensate for this interference. Nothing to worry about there. > > I say go for it. A properly designed scrubber prior to breakthrough should be outputting close to 0 CO2. If the test is in the sub, just beware that that low reading at the exhaust might not be reflective of the well mixed air in the cabin that you are actually breathing. > > Hank- The Sodasorb CO2 absorbents manual states that most anesthesia CO2 scrubbers have a length-to-diameter ratio of 1.5:1. That seems to be the practical limit for designing a scrubber with a pressure drop suitable from being human lung powered. Definitely important if you're building an anesthesia machine or a diving rebreather, but less so if you're building a fan powered mechanical scrubber. > > Steve- A method to calculate the pressure drop across an axial scrubber is described in the previously mentioned Sodasorb manual: > > "The specific resistance, K, of 4-8 mesh soda lime is of the order of 1 mm of water pressure per centimeter per liter per minute (mmH2)?cm?L-1?min). The pressure drop (P) across an absorber packed correctly, will depend upon the flow rate (V), length (L), specific resistance and effective cross sectional area (A) of the absorber. This relationship may be expressed by the equation: > P= (KLV)/A > For an absorber with a soda lime compartment of 2 liters, at a flow of 60 liters per minute, P is less than 1 centimeter (cm) of water pressure if the length of the combined chambers is less than 18 cm and the diameter greater than 12 cm, a ratio of 1.5 to 1. At a flow rate of 100 liters per minute, which is the maximum respiratory flow expected in anesthetized adults, the pressure across the Sodasorb compartment would not exceed 1.5 cm water pressure. These values do not take into consideration the resistance effect of breathing circuit, endotracheal tubes, directional valves, and fittings. In modern equipment, resistance offered by these components usually exceeds that of Sodasorb absorbent." > > The maximum pressure for your blower should be listed on it's spreadsheet. I would start with the blower pressure, punch it into that equation to find flow rate, then finding the dwell time should be easy once you know the flow rate. > > I've been thinking alot about scrubber design lately. I definitely recommend anyone interested in designing a scrubber to read through that manual. Might try to formalize the dwell time math for axial and radial scrubbers. > > Thanks, > > -River J. Dolfi > > rdolfi7 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 00:40:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 18:40:23 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Calculating Scrubber Residence/Contact Time In-Reply-To: <201711240314.vAO3EZct011056@whoweb.com> References: <201711240314.vAO3EZct011056@whoweb.com> Message-ID: Steve, in the one person submersible I'm building I'm going to use 2 scrubbers, (like Deep Worker 2000). Apart from redundancy there will be less waste of absorbent, as I can run the absorbent out & switch on the second scrubber. I intend to make them easy to refill in situ & carry replacement absorbent for an emergency 3-4 days scrubbing. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 24/11/2017, at 4:11 PM, Steve via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks. That helps. I will be curious to see how the actual test data with me in my sub compares to the calculated values. > Originally I wanted the scrubber capacity to closely match my O2 capacity without needing to refill the media (60hrs.) but decided that wasn"t the best management strategy. A smaller scrubber with spare media is a better use of my space. > Steve > > Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone > On Nov 23, 2017 9:48 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick- I don't believe any added humidity from mounting a CO2 sensor at the outlet of your scrubber will cause any issues. > > Everything inside a sub (that doesn't have A/C) should be designed with the expectation that the internal atmosphere will be at or close to 100% RH, and that condensation is to be expected. I've utilized a cheap NDIR CO2 sensor in an enclosure outside and have never had any condensation issues. > > NDIR (Nondispersive infrared) CO2 sensors function as mini spectrometers. They use infrared waves to energize gas molecules, which give off light at particular wavelengths based on the type of gas. Unfortunately, the wavelengths given off by CO2 are rather close to the wavelengths given off by H20, so water vapor would theoretically interfere with a measurement. > > For this reason, most (if not all) NDIR CO2 sensors include a humidity sensor so that they can compensate for this interference. Nothing to worry about there. > > I say go for it. A properly designed scrubber prior to breakthrough should be outputting close to 0 CO2. If the test is in the sub, just beware that that low reading at the exhaust might not be reflective of the well mixed air in the cabin that you are actually breathing. > > Hank- The Sodasorb CO2 absorbents manual states that most anesthesia CO2 scrubbers have a length-to-diameter ratio of 1.5:1. That seems to be the practical limit for designing a scrubber with a pressure drop suitable from being human lung powered. Definitely important if you're building an anesthesia machine or a diving rebreather, but less so if you're building a fan powered mechanical scrubber. > > Steve- A method to calculate the pressure drop across an axial scrubber is described in the previously mentioned Sodasorb manual: > > "The specific resistance, K, of 4-8 mesh soda lime is of the order of 1 mm of water pressure per centimeter per liter per minute (mmH2)?cm?L-1?min). The pressure drop (P) across an absorber packed correctly, will depend upon the flow rate (V), length (L), specific resistance and effective cross sectional area (A) of the absorber. This relationship may be expressed by the equation: > P= (KLV)/A > For an absorber with a soda lime compartment of 2 liters, at a flow of 60 liters per minute, P is less than 1 centimeter (cm) of water pressure if the length of the combined chambers is less than 18 cm and the diameter greater than 12 cm, a ratio of 1.5 to 1. At a flow rate of 100 liters per minute, which is the maximum respiratory flow expected in anesthetized adults, the pressure across the Sodasorb compartment would not exceed 1.5 cm water pressure. These values do not take into consideration the resistance effect of breathing circuit, endotracheal tubes, directional valves, and fittings. In modern equipment, resistance offered by these components usually exceeds that of Sodasorb absorbent." > > The maximum pressure for your blower should be listed on it's spreadsheet. I would start with the blower pressure, punch it into that equation to find flow rate, then finding the dwell time should be easy once you know the flow rate. > > I've been thinking alot about scrubber design lately. I definitely recommend anyone interested in designing a scrubber to read through that manual. Might try to formalize the dwell time math for axial and radial scrubbers. > > Thanks, > > -River J. Dolfi > > rdolfi7 at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 08:19:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 13:19:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber design References: <916984011.2432992.1511529562258.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <916984011.2432992.1511529562258@mail.yahoo.com> River,I was thinking that the large fan on Gamma's scrubber was increasing exposure do to increased volume. ?It is weird, it obviously worked well for many years and dives with two occupants. ?I went with the computer fan driven scrubbers instead of restoring the original scrubber because the original was very loud.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 11:49:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 17:49:46 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber design In-Reply-To: <916984011.2432992.1511529562258@mail.yahoo.com> References: <916984011.2432992.1511529562258.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <916984011.2432992.1511529562258@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01f201d36544$3c04ded0$b40e9c70$@nl> All, A simple way to indicate scrubber performance is to measure the delta Temperature between the in- and outlet. Further, The general working of the LSS is depending on the ambient temperature, air circulation and fear/exitement of the passengers.. Br. Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 24 november 2017 14:19 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber design River, I was thinking that the large fan on Gamma's scrubber was increasing exposure do to increased volume. It is weird, it obviously worked well for many years and dives with two occupants. I went with the computer fan driven scrubbers instead of restoring the original scrubber because the original was very loud. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 12:44:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 17:44:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber design In-Reply-To: <01f201d36544$3c04ded0$b40e9c70$@nl> References: <916984011.2432992.1511529562258.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <916984011.2432992.1511529562258@mail.yahoo.com> <01f201d36544$3c04ded0$b40e9c70$@nl> Message-ID: <1240346.2573867.1511545460593@mail.yahoo.com> I check the performance exactly the way Rick described, I put the meter at the discharge and watch the number plummet. ?Usually by the time I get organized to do a test the CO2 is at 2500 PPM in the sub. ?If the scrubber is working well the number will drop real fast at the discharge. ?Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 9:49:57 AM MST, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv5159584545 #yiv5159584545 -- _filtered #yiv5159584545 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5159584545 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5159584545 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5159584545 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv5159584545 #yiv5159584545 p.yiv5159584545MsoNormal, #yiv5159584545 li.yiv5159584545MsoNormal, #yiv5159584545 div.yiv5159584545MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv5159584545 a:link, #yiv5159584545 span.yiv5159584545MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5159584545 a:visited, #yiv5159584545 span.yiv5159584545MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5159584545 span.yiv5159584545E-mailStijl17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv5159584545 .yiv5159584545MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv5159584545 {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}#yiv5159584545 div.yiv5159584545WordSection1 {}#yiv5159584545 All, ? A simple way to indicate scrubber performance is to measure the delta Temperature between the in- and outlet. Further, ?The general working of the LSS is depending on the ambient temperature, air circulation and fear/exitement of the passengers.. ? Br. Emile ? Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 24 november 2017 14:19 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber design ? River, I was thinking that the large fan on Gamma's scrubber was increasing exposure do to increased volume. ?It is weird, it obviously worked well for many years and dives with two occupants. ?I went with the computer fan driven scrubbers instead of restoring the original scrubber because the original was very loud. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 12:54:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 17:54:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] magnetic coupler References: <527271977.2551438.1511546061691.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <527271977.2551438.1511546061691@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I did a very bad thing by mistake ;-( ?I almost wrecked my magnetic coupler. ?I welded the mating ring in for the drive unit and to help stop the ring from distorting to much. ?I bolted the propeller shaft tube assembly, witch is a 5\8 plate to the ring. ?After welding it up I was admiring my welds ;-) ?and suddenly noticed the propeller shaft was still in the tube, that means the magnet ?drive and barrier was still under the plate getting very hot! ?Magnets don't like HOT so I scrambled to remove the plate and get it outside in the cold to cool it down. ?Luckily the air space between the barrier and magnets insulated the magnets and they are okay. Whew!!! ? I am sure glad I mig welded it so it only took 15 minutes, preventing the plate from getting even hotter ;-)Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 14:05:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:05:00 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber design In-Reply-To: <01f201d36544$3c04ded0$b40e9c70$@nl> References: <916984011.2432992.1511529562258.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <916984011.2432992.1511529562258@mail.yahoo.com> <01f201d36544$3c04ded0$b40e9c70$@nl> Message-ID: <10494AB6-EC75-4B5B-AAE3-A0D0BB64B4C7@yahoo.com> Another variable in the equation would be performance when the absorbent was partially used. If 75% of the absorbent had turned pink (if colour indicating) then the CO2 would have a shorter dwell time through the remaining active absorbent. That would also make a mockery of any perfect height to diameter ratio because it would always be diminishing, wouldn't it? Alan Sent from my iPad > On 25/11/2017, at 5:49 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > All, > > A simple way to indicate scrubber performance is to measure the delta Temperature between the in- and outlet. > Further, The general working of the LSS is depending on the ambient temperature, air circulation and fear/exitement of the passengers.. > > Br. Emile > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: vrijdag 24 november 2017 14:19 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber design > > River, > I was thinking that the large fan on Gamma's scrubber was increasing exposure do to increased volume. It is weird, it obviously worked well for many years and dives with two occupants. I went with the computer fan driven scrubbers instead of restoring the original scrubber because the original was very loud. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 14:08:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 14:08:15 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] magnetic coupler In-Reply-To: <527271977.2551438.1511546061691@mail.yahoo.com> References: <527271977.2551438.1511546061691.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <527271977.2551438.1511546061691@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3UicOEMw5at8GO7gih3-i8ZN95vOk1EoVamzMuHp3JSEwKcSnh3Ml_WoCMnnGrxKo3N-vxi6yBsOx0w7s-d_jSKh0qb042LHX7wYn6Q-rRA=@protonmail.com> Took me a moment to visualize what you were talking about. Lucky there was no damage. In order to minimize distortion, another good thing to do is to make a lot of initial tacks around the perimeter, and then complete the weld in small steps, moving around in a similar fashion to a bolt torquing pattern, depositing limited amounts of heat in any single location until the weld is complete. If you physically constrain your parts with a jig or other assembly to limit deflection, the joint will likely carry more residual stress when the weld cools. Depending on how critical the joint is, such a joint may be a good candidate for stress relieving via post-weld heat treatment. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 24, 2017, 10:54, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi All, > I did a very bad thing by mistake ;-( I almost wrecked my magnetic coupler. I welded the mating ring in for the drive unit and to help stop the ring from distorting to much. I bolted the propeller shaft tube assembly, witch is a 5\8 plate to the ring. After welding it up I was admiring my welds ;-) and suddenly noticed the propeller shaft was still in the tube, that means the magnet drive and barrier was still under the plate getting very hot! Magnets don't like HOT so I scrambled to remove the plate and get it outside in the cold to cool it down. Luckily the air space between the barrier and magnets insulated the magnets and they are okay. Whew!!! I am sure glad I mig welded it so it only took 15 minutes, preventing the plate from getting even hotter ;-) > Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 15:27:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 20:27:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] magnetic coupler In-Reply-To: <3UicOEMw5at8GO7gih3-i8ZN95vOk1EoVamzMuHp3JSEwKcSnh3Ml_WoCMnnGrxKo3N-vxi6yBsOx0w7s-d_jSKh0qb042LHX7wYn6Q-rRA=@protonmail.com> References: <527271977.2551438.1511546061691.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <527271977.2551438.1511546061691@mail.yahoo.com> <3UicOEMw5at8GO7gih3-i8ZN95vOk1EoVamzMuHp3JSEwKcSnh3Ml_WoCMnnGrxKo3N-vxi6yBsOx0w7s-d_jSKh0qb042LHX7wYn6Q-rRA=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <270537712.2652144.1511555242413@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,I did several strong tack welds all around the ring first, then I did short welds ?between the tacks, then I ground out the tacks and welded all the way around in steps, just like you said, a bolt pattern. ?I did four passes because it is only 3\8 material and full penetration of coarse and a pre-heat.?Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 12:08:31 PM MST, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Took me a moment to visualize what you were talking about. Lucky there was no damage. In order to minimize distortion, another good thing to do is to make a lot of initial tacks around the perimeter, and then complete the weld in small steps, moving around in a similar fashion to a bolt torquing pattern, depositing limited amounts of heat in any single location until the weld is complete. If you physically constrain your parts with a jig or other assembly to limit deflection, the joint will likely carry more residual stress when the weld cools. Depending on how critical the joint is, such a joint may be a good candidate for stress relieving via post-weld heat treatment. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 24, 2017, 10:54, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Hi All,I did a very bad thing by mistake ;-( ?I almost wrecked my magnetic coupler. ?I welded the mating ring in for the drive unit and to help stop the ring from distorting to much. ?I bolted the propeller shaft tube assembly, witch is a 5\8 plate to the ring. ?After welding it up I was admiring my welds ;-) ?and suddenly noticed the propeller shaft was still in the tube, that means the magnet ?drive and barrier was still under the plate getting very hot! ?Magnets don't like HOT so I scrambled to remove the plate and get it outside in the cold to cool it down. ?Luckily the air space between the barrier and magnets insulated the magnets and they are okay. Whew!!! ? I am sure glad I mig welded it so it only took 15 minutes, preventing the plate from getting even hotter ;-)Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 17:33:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 17:33:26 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Calculating Scrubber Residence/Contact Time In-Reply-To: References: <201711240314.vAO3EZct011056@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <017701d36574$402bcb60$c0836220$@indy.rr.com> Sounds like a good plan. Initially for me I am not planning on full scrubber redundancy. I will carry extra media to at least match my O2 capacity and a manual mouthpiece adaption (yet to be designed). Steve From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, November 24, 2017 12:40 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Calculating Scrubber Residence/Contact Time Steve, in the one person submersible I'm building I'm going to use 2 scrubbers, (like Deep Worker 2000). Apart from redundancy there will be less waste of absorbent, as I can run the absorbent out & switch on the second scrubber. I intend to make them easy to refill in situ & carry replacement absorbent for an emergency 3-4 days scrubbing. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 24/11/2017, at 4:11 PM, Steve via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Thanks. That helps. I will be curious to see how the actual test data with me in my sub compares to the calculated values. Originally I wanted the scrubber capacity to closely match my O2 capacity without needing to refill the media (60hrs.) but decided that wasn"t the best management strategy. A smaller scrubber with spare media is a better use of my space. Steve Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone On Nov 23, 2017 9:48 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Rick- I don't believe any added humidity from mounting a CO2 sensor at the outlet of your scrubber will cause any issues. Everything inside a sub (that doesn't have A/C) should be designed with the expectation that the internal atmosphere will be at or close to 100% RH, and that condensation is to be expected. I've utilized a cheap NDIR CO2 sensor in an enclosure outside and have never had any condensation issues. NDIR (Nondispersive infrared) CO2 sensors function as mini spectrometers. They use infrared waves to energize gas molecules, which give off light at particular wavelengths based on the type of gas. Unfortunately, the wavelengths given off by CO2 are rather close to the wavelengths given off by H20, so water vapor would theoretically interfere with a measurement. For this reason, most (if not all) NDIR CO2 sensors include a humidity sensor so that they can compensate for this interference. Nothing to worry about there. I say go for it. A properly designed scrubber prior to breakthrough should be outputting close to 0 CO2. If the test is in the sub, just beware that that low reading at the exhaust might not be reflective of the well mixed air in the cabin that you are actually breathing. Hank- The Sodasorb CO2 absorbents manual states that most anesthesia CO2 scrubbers have a length-to-diameter ratio of 1.5:1. That seems to be the practical limit for designing a scrubber with a pressure drop suitable from being human lung powered. Definitely important if you're building an anesthesia machine or a diving rebreather, but less so if you're building a fan powered mechanical scrubber. Steve- A method to calculate the pressure drop across an axial scrubber is described in the previously mentioned Sodasorb manual: "The specific resistance, K, of 4-8 mesh soda lime is of the order of 1 mm of water pressure per centimeter per liter per minute (mmH2)?cm?L-1?min). The pressure drop (P) across an absorber packed correctly, will depend upon the flow rate (V), length (L), specific resistance and effective cross sectional area (A) of the absorber. This relationship may be expressed by the equation: P= (KLV)/A For an absorber with a soda lime compartment of 2 liters, at a flow of 60 liters per minute, P is less than 1 centimeter (cm) of water pressure if the length of the combined chambers is less than 18 cm and the diameter greater than 12 cm, a ratio of 1.5 to 1. At a flow rate of 100 liters per minute, which is the maximum respiratory flow expected in anesthetized adults, the pressure across the Sodasorb compartment would not exceed 1.5 cm water pressure. These values do not take into consideration the resistance effect of breathing circuit, endotracheal tubes, directional valves, and fittings. In modern equipment, resistance offered by these components usually exceeds that of Sodasorb absorbent." The maximum pressure for your blower should be listed on it's spreadsheet. I would start with the blower pressure, punch it into that equation to find flow rate, then finding the dwell time should be easy once you know the flow rate. I've been thinking alot about scrubber design lately. I definitely recommend anyone interested in designing a scrubber to read through that manual.. Might try to formalize the dwell time math for axial and radial scrubbers. Thanks, -River J.. Dolfi rdolfi7 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 18:27:09 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 15:27:09 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Message-ID: <20171124152709.30F74B91@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 19:21:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <20171124152709.30F74B91@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20171124152709.30F74B91@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanical seal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a central tubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealing on assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped & screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as I would probably have to cut in to it to part the sections. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, Been wrestling with my motor pods ! The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method. In fact I don't even remember ever seeing an arrangement like what I have. I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area. Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure. So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme. So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc.. So getting quotes on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out ! The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod ! So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring on both sides ( end cap and casing) regular steel, put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way. Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and open it that way. It will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip. > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 19:35:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 16:35:46 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Message-ID: <20171124163546.30F74930@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 19:59:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 00:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <20171124163546.30F74930@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20171124163546.30F74930@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1053489077.2725601.1511571578963@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Why don't you just drill and bolt flat plates onto a ring with a gasket?. ?Or you can send your material up to me and I can machine them.?Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 5:36:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? What kind of material are you using aluminum ?? Steel??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 Brian,my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanicalseal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a centraltubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealingon assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped &?screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as Iwould probably have to cut in to it to part the sections.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??????? Been wrestling with my motor pods?!???The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method.? In fact I don't even remember ever?seeing an arrangement like what I have.? I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area.? Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure.? So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme.? So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with? 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc..? So getting quotes?on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out !?? The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod !? So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring?on both sides ( end cap and casing)?regular steel,? put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way.? Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and?open it that way.? It?will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip.? ?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 20:12:44 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 17:12:44 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Message-ID: <20171124171244.30F749B9@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 20:24:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 01:24:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <20171124171244.30F749B9@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20171124171244.30F749B9@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1059387116.2743017.1511573051608@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Make a steel ring 1\4 thick and use a 1\8 inch thick aluminum plate for a cap. ?If you use a steel cap then make the cap and ring, then clamp together and drill the holes, bolt the two parts together. Then weld the ring to the housing with the cap bolted on. ?The two parts will be perfectly mated for a gasket. ? You can do the same with ss except it is a bugger to drill the ss. ?No machining needed !Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:12:57 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? I still think I would have to machine it flat.? Then I would have to paint it also.? The edges seem to be problematic with painting them, even using epoxy paint.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 00:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Why don't you just drill and bolt flat plates onto a ring with a gasket?. ?Or you can send your material up to me and I can machine them.?Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 5:36:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? What kind of material are you using aluminum ?? Steel??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 Brian,my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanicalseal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a centraltubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealingon assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped &?screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as Iwould probably have to cut in to it to part the sections.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??????? Been wrestling with my motor pods?!???The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method.? In fact I don't even remember ever?seeing an arrangement like what I have.? I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area.? Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure.? So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme.? So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with? 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc..? So getting quotes?on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out !?? The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod !? So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring?on both sides ( end cap and casing)?regular steel,? put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way.? Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and?open it that way.? It?will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip.? ?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 20:28:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 01:28:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <1059387116.2743017.1511573051608@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20171124171244.30F749B9@m0117567.ppops.net> <1059387116.2743017.1511573051608@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1466466420.2741105.1511573333349@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,If you round out your edges, the paint will hold on better. ?You can't paint sharp edges without them rusting.Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:24:34 PM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,Make a steel ring 1\4 thick and use a 1\8 inch thick aluminum plate for a cap. ?If you use a steel cap then make the cap and ring, then clamp together and drill the holes, bolt the two parts together. Then weld the ring to the housing with the cap bolted on. ?The two parts will be perfectly mated for a gasket. ? You can do the same with ss except it is a bugger to drill the ss. ?No machining needed !Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:12:57 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? I still think I would have to machine it flat.? Then I would have to paint it also.? The edges seem to be problematic with painting them, even using epoxy paint.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 00:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Why don't you just drill and bolt flat plates onto a ring with a gasket?. ?Or you can send your material up to me and I can machine them.?Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 5:36:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? What kind of material are you using aluminum ?? Steel??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 Brian,my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanicalseal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a centraltubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealingon assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped &?screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as Iwould probably have to cut in to it to part the sections.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??????? Been wrestling with my motor pods?!???The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method.? In fact I don't even remember ever?seeing an arrangement like what I have.? I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area.? Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure.? So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme.? So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with? 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc..? So getting quotes?on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out !?? The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod !? So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring?on both sides ( end cap and casing)?regular steel,? put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way.? Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and?open it that way.? It?will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip.? ?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 20:43:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 14:43:30 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <20171124163546.30F74930@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20171124163546.30F74930@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: <74C265BD-95E3-407B-AB33-7E60329846BE@yahoo.com> Brian, yes aluminium. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 25/11/2017, at 1:35 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, What kind of material are you using aluminum ? Steel? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution > Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 > > Brian, > my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanical > seal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a central > tubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealing > on assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped & > screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as I > would probably have to cut in to it to part the sections. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, Been wrestling with my motor pods ! The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method. In fact I don't even remember ever seeing an arrangement like what I have. I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area. Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure. So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme. So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc.. So getting quotes on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out ! The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod ! So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring on both sides ( end cap and casing) regular steel, put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way. Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and open it that way. It will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip. > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 21:14:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 18:14:56 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Message-ID: <20171124181456.30F75781@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pod5.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 72084 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 22:10:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 03:10:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <20171124181456.30F75781@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20171124181456.30F75781@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: <271192525.2759425.1511579429793@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Oh, I see, why do you think it is going to leak? ?Can you do a pressure test, take one out to sea and lower on a rope. ?You may be over reacting.Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 7:15:13 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I could probably do that on one end but the other I have the propeller shaft coming thru the end cap , where I have a stainless 2" pipe fitting , that is where the bearing and seals are located. ?Here's a pic of what I have:?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 01:24:11 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Make a steel ring 1\4 thick and use a 1\8 inch thick aluminum plate for a cap. ?If you use a steel cap then make the cap and ring, then clamp together and drill the holes, bolt the two parts together. Then weld the ring to the housing with the cap bolted on. ?The two parts will be perfectly mated for a gasket. ? You can do the same with ss except it is a bugger to drill the ss. ?No machining needed !Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:12:57 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? I still think I would have to machine it flat.? Then I would have to paint it also.? The edges seem to be problematic with painting them, even using epoxy paint.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 00:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Why don't you just drill and bolt flat plates onto a ring with a gasket?. ?Or you can send your material up to me and I can machine them.?Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 5:36:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? What kind of material are you using aluminum ?? Steel??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 Brian,my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanicalseal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a centraltubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealingon assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped &?screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as Iwould probably have to cut in to it to part the sections.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??????? Been wrestling with my motor pods?!???The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method.? In fact I don't even remember ever?seeing an arrangement like what I have.? I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area.? Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure.? So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme.? So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with? 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc..? So getting quotes?on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out !?? The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod !? So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring?on both sides ( end cap and casing)?regular steel,? put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way.? Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and?open it that way.? It?will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip.? ?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Nov 24 22:49:13 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 03:49:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <271192525.2759425.1511579429793@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20171124181456.30F75781@m0117567.ppops.net> <271192525.2759425.1511579429793@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <419420404.2764747.1511581754072@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,A low cost solution would be to make two rings and bolt them together and weld them to the head and cylinder, making the head bolt on with a gasket.Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 8:10:53 PM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,Oh, I see, why do you think it is going to leak? ?Can you do a pressure test, take one out to sea and lower on a rope. ?You may be over reacting.Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 7:15:13 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I could probably do that on one end but the other I have the propeller shaft coming thru the end cap , where I have a stainless 2" pipe fitting , that is where the bearing and seals are located. ?Here's a pic of what I have:?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 01:24:11 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Make a steel ring 1\4 thick and use a 1\8 inch thick aluminum plate for a cap. ?If you use a steel cap then make the cap and ring, then clamp together and drill the holes, bolt the two parts together. Then weld the ring to the housing with the cap bolted on. ?The two parts will be perfectly mated for a gasket. ? You can do the same with ss except it is a bugger to drill the ss. ?No machining needed !Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:12:57 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? I still think I would have to machine it flat.? Then I would have to paint it also.? The edges seem to be problematic with painting them, even using epoxy paint.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 00:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Why don't you just drill and bolt flat plates onto a ring with a gasket?. ?Or you can send your material up to me and I can machine them.?Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 5:36:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? What kind of material are you using aluminum ?? Steel??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 Brian,my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanicalseal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a centraltubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealingon assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped &?screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as Iwould probably have to cut in to it to part the sections.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??????? Been wrestling with my motor pods?!???The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method.? In fact I don't even remember ever?seeing an arrangement like what I have.? I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area.? Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure.? So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme.? So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with? 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc..? So getting quotes?on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out !?? The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod !? So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring?on both sides ( end cap and casing)?regular steel,? put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way.? Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and?open it that way.? It?will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip.? ?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 25 01:56:27 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 22:56:27 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Message-ID: <20171124225627.310899BA@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 25 08:08:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:08:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <20171124225627.310899BA@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20171124225627.310899BA@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: <160264671.2914704.1511615301764@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,No, they will not require machining. ?The rings will slide on the cylinder and be a bit out of true but that does not matter. ? The gasket does not care if the rings are not true. ?I have done this, it is fine. ?I did this on my log salvage ROV for the electrical tank, and it was pressure proof. ?The key is to keep the rings bolted together until both sides are fully welded.Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 11:56:49 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?? Don't you think they would still need to be machined??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 03:49:13 +0000 (UTC) Brian,A low cost solution would be to make two rings and bolt them together and weld them to the head and cylinder, making the head bolt on with a gasket.Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 8:10:53 PM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,Oh, I see, why do you think it is going to leak? ?Can you do a pressure test, take one out to sea and lower on a rope. ?You may be over reacting.Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 7:15:13 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I could probably do that on one end but the other I have the propeller shaft coming thru the end cap , where I have a stainless 2" pipe fitting , that is where the bearing and seals are located. ?Here's a pic of what I have:?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 01:24:11 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Make a steel ring 1\4 thick and use a 1\8 inch thick aluminum plate for a cap. ?If you use a steel cap then make the cap and ring, then clamp together and drill the holes, bolt the two parts together. Then weld the ring to the housing with the cap bolted on. ?The two parts will be perfectly mated for a gasket. ? You can do the same with ss except it is a bugger to drill the ss. ?No machining needed !Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:12:57 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? I still think I would have to machine it flat.? Then I would have to paint it also.? The edges seem to be problematic with painting them, even using epoxy paint.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 00:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Why don't you just drill and bolt flat plates onto a ring with a gasket?. ?Or you can send your material up to me and I can machine them.?Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 5:36:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? What kind of material are you using aluminum ?? Steel??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 Brian,my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanicalseal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a centraltubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealingon assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped &?screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as Iwould probably have to cut in to it to part the sections.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??????? Been wrestling with my motor pods?!???The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method.? In fact I don't even remember ever?seeing an arrangement like what I have.? I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area.? Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure.? So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme.? So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with? 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc..? So getting quotes?on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out !?? The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod !? So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring?on both sides ( end cap and casing)?regular steel,? put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way.? Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and?open it that way.? It?will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip.? ?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 25 08:33:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:33:48 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <20171124181456.30F75781@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20171124181456.30F75781@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: I would use a radial seal for this, not a face seal. Turning a groove is generally cheaper than milling one, and a radial groove permits the use of backup rings. The casing side just needs a smooth seal surface and an entry chamfer. The mating part would have a guide chamfer and the seal groove. What sort of clearance do you have on the inside? You mentioned that there is already an inner pipe section? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 24, 2017, 19:14, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I could probably do that on one end but the other I have the propeller shaft coming thru the end cap , where I have a stainless 2" pipe fitting , that is where the bearing and seals are located. > > Here's a pic of what I have: > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution > Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 01:24:11 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Make a steel ring 1\4 thick and use a 1\8 inch thick aluminum plate for a cap. If you use a steel cap then make the cap and ring, then clamp together and drill the holes, bolt the two parts together. Then weld the ring to the housing with the cap bolted on. The two parts will be perfectly mated for a gasket. You can do the same with ss except it is a bugger to drill the ss. No machining needed ! > Hank > > On Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:12:57 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, I still think I would have to machine it flat. Then I would have to paint it also. The edges seem to be problematic with painting them, even using epoxy paint. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution > Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 00:59:38 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Why don't you just drill and bolt flat plates onto a ring with a gasket?. Or you can send your material up to me and I can machine them. > Hank > > On Friday, November 24, 2017, 5:36:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, What kind of material are you using aluminum ? Steel? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution > Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 > Brian, > my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanical > seal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a central > tubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealing > on assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped & > screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as I > would probably have to cut in to it to part the sections. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Hi All, Been wrestling with my motor pods ! The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method. In fact I don't even remember ever seeing an arrangement like what I have. I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area. Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure. So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme. So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc.. So getting quotes on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out ! The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod ! So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring on both sides ( end cap and casing) regular steel, put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way. Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and open it that way. It will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip. >> >> Brian > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 25 11:11:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:11:29 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Message-ID: <20171125081129.30F75D72@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 25 11:47:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:47:40 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <20171125081129.30F75D72@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20171125081129.30F75D72@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: <6k-SkBsBxOhJP9iYxVXCXzm9AU12FdlaAHvaIgzrrP7UpSCLb_DgK3vEpcEMLFGkXo4Esbh2w-bfePzxv6izmUmF5yettUN9kjfgPNMzjy0=@protonmail.com> "Backup rings" does not refer to redundant o-rings, but rather to contoured polymer bearing rings which sandwich the sealing ring in the (slightly wider than standard) groove. Backup rings help to resist extrusion of the o-ring. More important in dynamic applications, but can be useful in static ones as well, in which case you generally only need one backup ring on the low pressure side of the groove. Where redundant o-rings can be useful is when assembly alignment is improved with two rings in two separate grooves, or where a "cushion" ring is installed to prevent metal mating parts from bottoming out against each other. Not necessary though, and can even cause problems with trapped volumes between seals. Choice of cross-sectional diameter is a tradeoff. Smaller rings obviously require less machining and required space for the groove, and the smaller rings have more consistent physical properties. Larger rings tolerate compression set better, seal gaps with looser tolerances more consistently, and are much more tolerant of scratches / defects on the sealing surfaces. Cross-sectional diameter does not need to bear a relationship to the part size, but as mating parts get larger it becomes more difficult to maintain the tolerances required to reliably seal a small series o-ring, and you have to be more careful about not twisting it during installation. Honestly though, if the mating faces of your existing parts are machined surfaces with appropriate surface finish and flatness, there is nothing wrong with your existing seal arrangement (face seal with o-ring slightly stretched over the inner lip. The only problem with face seals for this application is the dimensional stability of the assembly. Under increased pressure, the face seal or gasket will deform more, shortening the assembled length. With the radial seal arrangement, the seal is independent of the mechanical load because the parts bear directly on each other. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 25, 2017, 09:11, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Sean, One problem is that the motor and gear box just barely fit in the 14" pipe so I can't really increase the material on the inside of the pipe. At present I have a 1/8" inner lip welded to the inside which mates up with the end cap. When you say back up rings would those rings be multiple rings in the same groove or separate grooves? or either way? So I would need to slide a larger diameter end cap over the casing having the o rings in the casing itself ? Sean, as a general rule would you say that the larger the piece you're working with the larger the o ring cross section should be? Just as a mater of tolerances. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution > Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:33:48 -0500 > > I would use a radial seal for this, not a face seal. Turning a groove is generally cheaper than milling one, and a radial groove permits the use of backup rings. The casing side just needs a smooth seal surface and an entry chamfer. The mating part would have a guide chamfer and the seal groove. What sort of clearance do you have on the inside? You mentioned that there is already an inner pipe section? > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Nov 24, 2017, 19:14, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I could probably do that on one end but the other I have the propeller shaft coming thru the end cap , where I have a stainless 2" pipe fitting , that is where the bearing and seals are located. >> >> Here's a pic of what I have: >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution >> Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 01:24:11 +0000 (UTC) >> >> Brian, >> Make a steel ring 1\4 thick and use a 1\8 inch thick aluminum plate for a cap. If you use a steel cap then make the cap and ring, then clamp together and drill the holes, bolt the two parts together. Then weld the ring to the housing with the cap bolted on. The two parts will be perfectly mated for a gasket. You can do the same with ss except it is a bugger to drill the ss. No machining needed ! >> Hank >> >> On Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:12:57 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hank, I still think I would have to machine it flat. Then I would have to paint it also. The edges seem to be problematic with painting them, even using epoxy paint. >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution >> Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 00:59:38 +0000 (UTC) >> >> Brian, >> Why don't you just drill and bolt flat plates onto a ring with a gasket?. Or you can send your material up to me and I can machine them. >> Hank >> >> On Friday, November 24, 2017, 5:36:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, What kind of material are you using aluminum ? Steel? >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution >> Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 >> Brian, >> my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanical >> seal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a central >> tubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealing >> on assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped & >> screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as I >> would probably have to cut in to it to part the sections. >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Hi All, Been wrestling with my motor pods ! The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method. In fact I don't even remember ever seeing an arrangement like what I have. I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area. Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure. So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme. So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc.. So getting quotes on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out ! The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod ! So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring on both sides ( end cap and casing) regular steel, put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way. Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and open it that way. It will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip. >>> >>> Brian >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 25 12:48:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 09:48:21 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Message-ID: <20171125094821.30FC1A01@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 25 12:53:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 09:53:08 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pod pics Message-ID: <20171125095308.30F540D8@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1345.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 71676 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 25 13:19:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 18:19:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <20171125094821.30FC1A01@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20171125094821.30FC1A01@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1919367081.2988184.1511633995059@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,To me it seems you have a working set up that just needs tweaking. ?Is it possible that your rods are not tightened equally and the end cap is not even against the o-ring. ?A 1\4 inch o-ring has a ton of forgiveness, that makes me wonder if your getting enough compression on the o-ring. ?What stops the end cap from continuing to squeeze the o-ring? ?Hank On Saturday, November 25, 2017, 10:48:36 AM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Sean,? I remember now about the back up rings, I've never had occasion to use them however.? The other thing is I'm using a 1/4" o ring on the 14" dia , since it is not really doing a traditional o ring seal exactly would it be better to use a o ring with a square cross section in this case???? Also, the only deformation is the pressure of the squeeze I am applying to keep the whole thing together as the unit is filled with oil ( wd40)? .? I think the lightness of the oil is also a factor because despite my efforts I'm still getting oil coming through my seal some place, could be a nick on one of the faces.? You can't see in the picture but I have two 7/8" stainless round bars running through the length of the motor pod?.??They are welded to the inside of one of the end caps and go all the way through and come out through fittings with o rings on the opposite end cap.? There are threads?on the end where I'm able to compress the two end caps together (?if you can visualize that )? I'll see if I have a pic of that .? ? ?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:47:40 -0500 "Backup rings" does not refer to redundant o-rings, but rather to contoured polymer bearing rings which sandwich the sealing ring in the (slightly wider than standard) groove. Backup rings help to resist extrusion of the o-ring. More important in dynamic applications, but can be useful in static ones as well, in which case you generally only need one backup ring on the low pressure side of the groove. Where redundant o-rings can be useful is when assembly alignment is improved with two rings in two separate grooves, or where a "cushion" ring is installed to prevent metal mating parts from bottoming out against each other. Not necessary though, and can even cause problems with trapped volumes between seals. Choice of cross-sectional diameter is a tradeoff. Smaller rings obviously require less machining and required space for the groove, and the smaller rings have more consistent physical properties. Larger rings tolerate compression set better, seal gaps with looser tolerances more consistently, and are much more tolerant of scratches / defects on the sealing surfaces. Cross-sectional diameter does not need to bear a relationship to the part size, but as mating parts get larger it becomes more difficult to maintain the tolerances required to reliably seal a small series o-ring, and you have to be more careful about not twisting it during installation. Honestly though, if the mating faces of your existing parts are machined surfaces with appropriate surface finish and flatness, there is nothing wrong with your existing seal arrangement (face seal with o-ring slightly stretched over the inner lip. The only problem with face seals for this application is the dimensional stability of the assembly. Under increased pressure, the face seal or gasket will deform more, shortening the assembled length. With the radial seal arrangement, the seal is independent of the mechanical load because the parts bear directly on each other. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 25, 2017, 09:11, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Hi Sean,??? One problem is that the motor and gear box just barely fit in the 14" pipe so I can't really increase the material on the inside of the pipe.? At present I have a 1/8" inner lip welded to the inside which mates up with the end cap.? When you say back up rings would those rings be multiple rings in the same groove or separate grooves????or either way??? So I would need to slide a larger diameter end cap?over the casing having the o rings in the casing itself ?? Sean, as a general rule would you say that the larger the piece you're working with the larger the o ring cross section should be?? Just as a mater of tolerances.? ??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:33:48 -0500 I would use a radial seal for this, not a face seal. Turning a groove is generally cheaper than milling one, and a radial groove permits the use of backup rings. The casing side just needs a smooth seal surface and an entry chamfer. The mating part would have a guide chamfer and the seal groove. What sort of clearance do you have on the inside? You mentioned that there is already an inner pipe section? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 24, 2017, 19:14, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: I could probably do that on one end but the other I have the propeller shaft coming thru the end cap , where I have a stainless 2" pipe fitting , that is where the bearing and seals are located. ?Here's a pic of what I have:?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 01:24:11 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Make a steel ring 1\4 thick and use a 1\8 inch thick aluminum plate for a cap. ?If you use a steel cap then make the cap and ring, then clamp together and drill the holes, bolt the two parts together. Then weld the ring to the housing with the cap bolted on. ?The two parts will be perfectly mated for a gasket. ? You can do the same with ss except it is a bugger to drill the ss. ?No machining needed !Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:12:57 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? I still think I would have to machine it flat.? Then I would have to paint it also.? The edges seem to be problematic with painting them, even using epoxy paint.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 00:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Why don't you just drill and bolt flat plates onto a ring with a gasket?. ?Or you can send your material up to me and I can machine them.?Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 5:36:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? What kind of material are you using aluminum ?? Steel??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 Brian,my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanicalseal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a centraltubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealingon assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped &?screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as Iwould probably have to cut in to it to part the sections.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??????? Been wrestling with my motor pods?!???The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method.? In fact I don't even remember ever?seeing an arrangement like what I have.? I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area.? Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure.? So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme.? So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with? 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc..? So getting quotes?on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out !?? The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod !? So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring?on both sides ( end cap and casing)?regular steel,? put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way.? Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and?open it that way.? It?will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip.? ?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 25 14:22:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:22:01 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pod pics In-Reply-To: <20171125095308.30F540D8@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20171125095308.30F540D8@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <32C62538-73FF-47C9-82D0-D34E9DAFDEE1@yahoo.com> Brian, looking at your picture; if your motors develop say 100lb thrust, then depending on how things are set up internally, the back section would be trying to separate from the centre section with 100lb force on it. Then in reverse it would be either pulling those two sections together or trying to pull the centre & front sectiong apart. Just mentioning this in case it effects your decision to weld. If there is not much room between the motor & casing, be careful not to overheat the motor magnets or windings if welding. You could try epoxying in the join & wrapping round the join with fibreglass tape & epoxy. ( bandage option) You might want to do this as a back up if the o-ring doesn't work. Good luck. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 26/11/2017, at 6:53 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here you can see where the connecting rods come through the other side of the motor pod, holing it together. > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 25 14:29:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:29:59 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Message-ID: <20171125112959.30FC0455@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 25 15:29:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 20:29:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <20171125112959.30FC0455@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20171125112959.30FC0455@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1053384794.3045145.1511641740249@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,That is not so good using the o-ring as a stopper. ?Maybe your extruding the o-ring causing the leak?Hank On Saturday, November 25, 2017, 12:30:13 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,???? Nothing stops the amount of squeeze, I can squeeze the heck out of it.?????? Gremlins !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 18:19:55 +0000 (UTC) Brian,To me it seems you have a working set up that just needs tweaking. ?Is it possible that your rods are not tightened equally and the end cap is not even against the o-ring. ?A 1\4 inch o-ring has a ton of forgiveness, that makes me wonder if your getting enough compression on the o-ring. ?What stops the end cap from continuing to squeeze the o-ring? ?Hank On Saturday, November 25, 2017, 10:48:36 AM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Sean,? I remember now about the back up rings, I've never had occasion to use them however.? The other thing is I'm using a 1/4" o ring on the 14" dia , since it is not really doing a traditional o ring seal exactly would it be better to use a o ring with a square cross section in this case???? Also, the only deformation is the pressure of the squeeze I am applying to keep the whole thing together as the unit is filled with oil ( wd40)? .? I think the lightness of the oil is also a factor because despite my efforts I'm still getting oil coming through my seal some place, could be a nick on one of the faces.? You can't see in the picture but I have two 7/8" stainless round bars running through the length of the motor pod?.??They are welded to the inside of one of the end caps and go all the way through and come out through fittings with o rings on the opposite end cap.? There are threads?on the end where I'm able to compress the two end caps together (?if you can visualize that )? I'll see if I have a pic of that .? ? ?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:47:40 -0500 "Backup rings" does not refer to redundant o-rings, but rather to contoured polymer bearing rings which sandwich the sealing ring in the (slightly wider than standard) groove. Backup rings help to resist extrusion of the o-ring. More important in dynamic applications, but can be useful in static ones as well, in which case you generally only need one backup ring on the low pressure side of the groove. Where redundant o-rings can be useful is when assembly alignment is improved with two rings in two separate grooves, or where a "cushion" ring is installed to prevent metal mating parts from bottoming out against each other. Not necessary though, and can even cause problems with trapped volumes between seals. Choice of cross-sectional diameter is a tradeoff. Smaller rings obviously require less machining and required space for the groove, and the smaller rings have more consistent physical properties. Larger rings tolerate compression set better, seal gaps with looser tolerances more consistently, and are much more tolerant of scratches / defects on the sealing surfaces. Cross-sectional diameter does not need to bear a relationship to the part size, but as mating parts get larger it becomes more difficult to maintain the tolerances required to reliably seal a small series o-ring, and you have to be more careful about not twisting it during installation. Honestly though, if the mating faces of your existing parts are machined surfaces with appropriate surface finish and flatness, there is nothing wrong with your existing seal arrangement (face seal with o-ring slightly stretched over the inner lip. The only problem with face seals for this application is the dimensional stability of the assembly. Under increased pressure, the face seal or gasket will deform more, shortening the assembled length. With the radial seal arrangement, the seal is independent of the mechanical load because the parts bear directly on each other. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 25, 2017, 09:11, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Hi Sean,??? One problem is that the motor and gear box just barely fit in the 14" pipe so I can't really increase the material on the inside of the pipe.? At present I have a 1/8" inner lip welded to the inside which mates up with the end cap.? When you say back up rings would those rings be multiple rings in the same groove or separate grooves????or either way??? So I would need to slide a larger diameter end cap?over the casing having the o rings in the casing itself ?? Sean, as a general rule would you say that the larger the piece you're working with the larger the o ring cross section should be?? Just as a mater of tolerances.? ??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:33:48 -0500 I would use a radial seal for this, not a face seal. Turning a groove is generally cheaper than milling one, and a radial groove permits the use of backup rings. The casing side just needs a smooth seal surface and an entry chamfer. The mating part would have a guide chamfer and the seal groove. What sort of clearance do you have on the inside? You mentioned that there is already an inner pipe section? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 24, 2017, 19:14, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: I could probably do that on one end but the other I have the propeller shaft coming thru the end cap , where I have a stainless 2" pipe fitting , that is where the bearing and seals are located. ?Here's a pic of what I have:?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 01:24:11 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Make a steel ring 1\4 thick and use a 1\8 inch thick aluminum plate for a cap. ?If you use a steel cap then make the cap and ring, then clamp together and drill the holes, bolt the two parts together. Then weld the ring to the housing with the cap bolted on. ?The two parts will be perfectly mated for a gasket. ? You can do the same with ss except it is a bugger to drill the ss. ?No machining needed !Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:12:57 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? I still think I would have to machine it flat.? Then I would have to paint it also.? The edges seem to be problematic with painting them, even using epoxy paint.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 00:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Why don't you just drill and bolt flat plates onto a ring with a gasket?. ?Or you can send your material up to me and I can machine them.?Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 5:36:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? What kind of material are you using aluminum ?? Steel??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 Brian,my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanicalseal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a centraltubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealingon assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped &?screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as Iwould probably have to cut in to it to part the sections.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??????? Been wrestling with my motor pods?!???The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method.? In fact I don't even remember ever?seeing an arrangement like what I have.? I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area.? Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure.? So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme.? So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with? 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc..? So getting quotes?on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out !?? The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod !? So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring?on both sides ( end cap and casing)?regular steel,? put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way.? Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and?open it that way.? It?will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip.? ?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Nov 25 23:49:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 20:49:57 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Message-ID: <20171125204957.30FD34C0@m0117457.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Nov 26 06:44:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 11:44:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <20171125204957.30FD34C0@m0117457.ppops.net> References: <20171125204957.30FD34C0@m0117457.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1093786564.3268777.1511696687084@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I still think your okay, the end cap may just be siting uneven on the o-ring. ?Easy fix if it is, just add a few stoppers so the end caps can't go past. ?I would start by marking where the end cap is ?by scribing a line and then remove the end cap and measure to see if it was even. ?I thought you might have squeezed one part of the o-ring too much, but there is no way you ?could do that. I bet if you weld some stopper tabs on the outside of the cylinder, it will be good. ?By the way, I am pretty sure all sub builders have had to chase down an annoying leak of some sort. ?I know I have.Hank On Saturday, November 25, 2017, 9:50:12 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: could be ! --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 20:29:00 +0000 (UTC) Brian,That is not so good using the o-ring as a stopper. ?Maybe your extruding the o-ring causing the leak?Hank On Saturday, November 25, 2017, 12:30:13 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,???? Nothing stops the amount of squeeze, I can squeeze the heck out of it.?????? Gremlins !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 18:19:55 +0000 (UTC) Brian,To me it seems you have a working set up that just needs tweaking. ?Is it possible that your rods are not tightened equally and the end cap is not even against the o-ring. ?A 1\4 inch o-ring has a ton of forgiveness, that makes me wonder if your getting enough compression on the o-ring. ?What stops the end cap from continuing to squeeze the o-ring? ?Hank On Saturday, November 25, 2017, 10:48:36 AM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Sean,? I remember now about the back up rings, I've never had occasion to use them however.? The other thing is I'm using a 1/4" o ring on the 14" dia , since it is not really doing a traditional o ring seal exactly would it be better to use a o ring with a square cross section in this case???? Also, the only deformation is the pressure of the squeeze I am applying to keep the whole thing together as the unit is filled with oil ( wd40)? .? I think the lightness of the oil is also a factor because despite my efforts I'm still getting oil coming through my seal some place, could be a nick on one of the faces.? You can't see in the picture but I have two 7/8" stainless round bars running through the length of the motor pod?.??They are welded to the inside of one of the end caps and go all the way through and come out through fittings with o rings on the opposite end cap.? There are threads?on the end where I'm able to compress the two end caps together (?if you can visualize that )? I'll see if I have a pic of that .? ? ?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:47:40 -0500 "Backup rings" does not refer to redundant o-rings, but rather to contoured polymer bearing rings which sandwich the sealing ring in the (slightly wider than standard) groove. Backup rings help to resist extrusion of the o-ring. More important in dynamic applications, but can be useful in static ones as well, in which case you generally only need one backup ring on the low pressure side of the groove. Where redundant o-rings can be useful is when assembly alignment is improved with two rings in two separate grooves, or where a "cushion" ring is installed to prevent metal mating parts from bottoming out against each other. Not necessary though, and can even cause problems with trapped volumes between seals. Choice of cross-sectional diameter is a tradeoff. Smaller rings obviously require less machining and required space for the groove, and the smaller rings have more consistent physical properties. Larger rings tolerate compression set better, seal gaps with looser tolerances more consistently, and are much more tolerant of scratches / defects on the sealing surfaces. Cross-sectional diameter does not need to bear a relationship to the part size, but as mating parts get larger it becomes more difficult to maintain the tolerances required to reliably seal a small series o-ring, and you have to be more careful about not twisting it during installation. Honestly though, if the mating faces of your existing parts are machined surfaces with appropriate surface finish and flatness, there is nothing wrong with your existing seal arrangement (face seal with o-ring slightly stretched over the inner lip. The only problem with face seals for this application is the dimensional stability of the assembly. Under increased pressure, the face seal or gasket will deform more, shortening the assembled length. With the radial seal arrangement, the seal is independent of the mechanical load because the parts bear directly on each other. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 25, 2017, 09:11, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Hi Sean,??? One problem is that the motor and gear box just barely fit in the 14" pipe so I can't really increase the material on the inside of the pipe.? At present I have a 1/8" inner lip welded to the inside which mates up with the end cap.? When you say back up rings would those rings be multiple rings in the same groove or separate grooves????or either way??? So I would need to slide a larger diameter end cap?over the casing having the o rings in the casing itself ?? Sean, as a general rule would you say that the larger the piece you're working with the larger the o ring cross section should be?? Just as a mater of tolerances.? ??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:33:48 -0500 I would use a radial seal for this, not a face seal. Turning a groove is generally cheaper than milling one, and a radial groove permits the use of backup rings. The casing side just needs a smooth seal surface and an entry chamfer. The mating part would have a guide chamfer and the seal groove. What sort of clearance do you have on the inside? You mentioned that there is already an inner pipe section? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 24, 2017, 19:14, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: I could probably do that on one end but the other I have the propeller shaft coming thru the end cap , where I have a stainless 2" pipe fitting , that is where the bearing and seals are located. ?Here's a pic of what I have:?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 01:24:11 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Make a steel ring 1\4 thick and use a 1\8 inch thick aluminum plate for a cap. ?If you use a steel cap then make the cap and ring, then clamp together and drill the holes, bolt the two parts together. Then weld the ring to the housing with the cap bolted on. ?The two parts will be perfectly mated for a gasket. ? You can do the same with ss except it is a bugger to drill the ss. ?No machining needed !Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:12:57 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? I still think I would have to machine it flat.? Then I would have to paint it also.? The edges seem to be problematic with painting them, even using epoxy paint.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 00:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Why don't you just drill and bolt flat plates onto a ring with a gasket?. ?Or you can send your material up to me and I can machine them.?Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 5:36:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? What kind of material are you using aluminum ?? Steel??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 Brian,my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanicalseal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a centraltubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealingon assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped &?screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as Iwould probably have to cut in to it to part the sections.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??????? Been wrestling with my motor pods?!???The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method.? In fact I don't even remember ever?seeing an arrangement like what I have.? I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area.? Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure.? So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme.? So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with? 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc..? So getting quotes?on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out !?? The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod !? So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring?on both sides ( end cap and casing)?regular steel,? put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way.? Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and?open it that way.? It?will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip.? ?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Nov 26 18:48:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 23:48:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] boring tool References: <692938108.3520171.1511740087665.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <692938108.3520171.1511740087665@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,Is there such a tool that can bore a 6 inch dia hole in 1 inch thick plate. ?Some sort of milling machine tool, it needs to machine a precision hole.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 27 00:17:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 05:17:08 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] boring tool In-Reply-To: <692938108.3520171.1511740087665@mail.yahoo.com> References: <692938108.3520171.1511740087665.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <692938108.3520171.1511740087665@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Have you checked into a mag drill yet? Rick On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 1:49 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > Is there such a tool that can bore a 6 inch dia hole in 1 inch thick > plate. Some sort of milling machine tool, it needs to machine a precision > hole. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 27 01:16:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 17:16:12 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] boring tool In-Reply-To: References: <692938108.3520171.1511740087665.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <692938108.3520171.1511740087665@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, You could probably get away with using a holesaw - a one-piece one design for cutting metal, not the adjustable ones for cutting wood. It would take a while and need lots of coolant and force, but I think it would be quite doable (I've seen big ones used on thick steel before). The big ones aren't cheap though. Or couldn't you just mill out the circle with a smaller milling bit, so that you end up with a disc that drops out when you finish the cut? Cheers, Steve On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, > Have you checked into a mag drill yet? > Rick > > On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 1:49 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> Is there such a tool that can bore a 6 inch dia hole in 1 inch thick >> plate. Some sort of milling machine tool, it needs to machine a precision >> hole. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 27 07:56:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 12:56:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] boring tool In-Reply-To: References: <692938108.3520171.1511740087665.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <692938108.3520171.1511740087665@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <152469133.3848105.1511787407287@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, I thought about a Mag drill, but I was thinking about taking my small milling machine apart and making a mount on the sphere. ?A mag drill could be adapted easier because I could just tack weld a flat plate to the hull for it to sit on. ? I have never used a mag drill and don't know how slow they can turn? ?I figure I will have to turn something pretty slow. ?Steve, I don't know if I can cut it out with a milling bit, I have very little experience with this idea. ?I could cut it out small with a torch using a circle guide also. ?I hate machining torch cut pieces because they tent to surface harden. ?I suppose I could grind the hard surface off first. ? I am looking for a easy clean way to do this, before I jump in and do it the hard way.?My goal in to put two small ports in Elementary 3000 without welding them in. ?I will machine two holes in the hull and then machine two conical port frames to fit the hull perfectly and will be retained from the inside of the hull.?Any clever ideas to achieve this would be appreciated.Hank On Sunday, November 26, 2017, 11:16:30 PM MST, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,You could probably?get away with using a?holesaw - a one-piece one design for cutting metal, not the adjustable ones for cutting wood.? It would take a while and need lots of coolant and force, but?I think it would be quite doable (I've?seen big ones used on thick steel before).? The big ones aren't cheap though. Or couldn't you?just mill out the circle with a smaller milling bit, so that you end up with a disc that drops out when you finish the?cut? Cheers,Steve On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?Have you checked into a mag drill yet?Rick? On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 1:49 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Is there such a tool that can bore a 6 inch dia hole in 1 inch thick plate.? Some sort of milling machine tool, it needs to machine a precision hole.Hank______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 27 12:39:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 09:39:30 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Message-ID: <20171127093930.30F2F20C@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 27 12:45:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 09:45:48 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] boring tool Message-ID: <20171127094548.30F2F34E@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 27 13:32:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 08:32:59 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] boring tool In-Reply-To: <152469133.3848105.1511787407287@mail.yahoo.com> References: <692938108.3520171.1511740087665.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <692938108.3520171.1511740087665@mail.yahoo.com> <152469133.3848105.1511787407287@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I have a Bosch mag drill and I love it! They do turn a slow rpm but not an expert in this field though I have drilled threw 1" plate and it goes threw like cutting butter. Contact Bosch and they can tell you. The only draw back to going that route is that not sure if you can rent one and they aren't cheap to buy plus if they do make a 6" bit, it's gonna set you back a pretty penny! good luck. Rick On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, I thought about a Mag drill, but I was thinking about taking my > small milling machine apart and making a mount on the sphere. A mag drill > could be adapted easier because I could just tack weld a flat plate to the > hull for it to sit on. I have never used a mag drill and don't know how > slow they can turn? I figure I will have to turn something pretty slow. > Steve, I don't know if I can cut it out with a milling bit, I have very > little experience with this idea. I could cut it out small with a torch > using a circle guide also. I hate machining torch cut pieces because they > tent to surface harden. I suppose I could grind the hard surface off > first. I am looking for a easy clean way to do this, before I jump in and > do it the hard way. > My goal in to put two small ports in Elementary 3000 without welding them > in. I will machine two holes in the hull and then machine two conical port > frames to fit the hull perfectly and will be retained from the inside of > the hull. > Any clever ideas to achieve this would be appreciated. > Hank > > > On Sunday, November 26, 2017, 11:16:30 PM MST, Stephen Fordyce via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > You could probably get away with using a holesaw - a one-piece one design > for cutting metal, not the adjustable ones for cutting wood. It would take > a while and need lots of coolant and force, but I think it would be quite > doable (I've seen big ones used on thick steel before). The big ones > aren't cheap though. > > Or couldn't you just mill out the circle with a smaller milling bit, so > that you end up with a disc that drops out when you finish the cut? > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hank, > Have you checked into a mag drill yet? > Rick > > On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 1:49 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi All, > Is there such a tool that can bore a 6 inch dia hole in 1 inch thick > plate. Some sort of milling machine tool, it needs to machine a precision > hole. > Hank > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 27 13:46:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 18:46:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution In-Reply-To: <20171127093930.30F2F20C@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20171127093930.30F2F20C@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1862104514.4195320.1511808388233@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Shouldn't matter, the two faces will seal it.Hank On Monday, November 27, 2017, 10:39:46 AM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,??????? I have a tab running all the way around.? It could be the edge surface is not good.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 11:44:47 +0000 (UTC) Brian,I still think your okay, the end cap may just be siting uneven on the o-ring. ?Easy fix if it is, just add a few stoppers so the end caps can't go past. ?I would start by marking where the end cap is ?by scribing a line and then remove the end cap and measure to see if it was even. ?I thought you might have squeezed one part of the o-ring too much, but there is no way you ?could do that. I bet if you weld some stopper tabs on the outside of the cylinder, it will be good. ?By the way, I am pretty sure all sub builders have had to chase down an annoying leak of some sort. ?I know I have.Hank On Saturday, November 25, 2017, 9:50:12 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: could be ! --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 20:29:00 +0000 (UTC) Brian,That is not so good using the o-ring as a stopper. ?Maybe your extruding the o-ring causing the leak?Hank On Saturday, November 25, 2017, 12:30:13 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,???? Nothing stops the amount of squeeze, I can squeeze the heck out of it.?????? Gremlins !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 18:19:55 +0000 (UTC) Brian,To me it seems you have a working set up that just needs tweaking. ?Is it possible that your rods are not tightened equally and the end cap is not even against the o-ring. ?A 1\4 inch o-ring has a ton of forgiveness, that makes me wonder if your getting enough compression on the o-ring. ?What stops the end cap from continuing to squeeze the o-ring? ?Hank On Saturday, November 25, 2017, 10:48:36 AM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Sean,? I remember now about the back up rings, I've never had occasion to use them however.? The other thing is I'm using a 1/4" o ring on the 14" dia , since it is not really doing a traditional o ring seal exactly would it be better to use a o ring with a square cross section in this case???? Also, the only deformation is the pressure of the squeeze I am applying to keep the whole thing together as the unit is filled with oil ( wd40)? .? I think the lightness of the oil is also a factor because despite my efforts I'm still getting oil coming through my seal some place, could be a nick on one of the faces.? You can't see in the picture but I have two 7/8" stainless round bars running through the length of the motor pod?.??They are welded to the inside of one of the end caps and go all the way through and come out through fittings with o rings on the opposite end cap.? There are threads?on the end where I'm able to compress the two end caps together (?if you can visualize that )? I'll see if I have a pic of that .? ? ?Brian? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:47:40 -0500 "Backup rings" does not refer to redundant o-rings, but rather to contoured polymer bearing rings which sandwich the sealing ring in the (slightly wider than standard) groove. Backup rings help to resist extrusion of the o-ring. More important in dynamic applications, but can be useful in static ones as well, in which case you generally only need one backup ring on the low pressure side of the groove. Where redundant o-rings can be useful is when assembly alignment is improved with two rings in two separate grooves, or where a "cushion" ring is installed to prevent metal mating parts from bottoming out against each other. Not necessary though, and can even cause problems with trapped volumes between seals. Choice of cross-sectional diameter is a tradeoff. Smaller rings obviously require less machining and required space for the groove, and the smaller rings have more consistent physical properties. Larger rings tolerate compression set better, seal gaps with looser tolerances more consistently, and are much more tolerant of scratches / defects on the sealing surfaces. Cross-sectional diameter does not need to bear a relationship to the part size, but as mating parts get larger it becomes more difficult to maintain the tolerances required to reliably seal a small series o-ring, and you have to be more careful about not twisting it during installation. Honestly though, if the mating faces of your existing parts are machined surfaces with appropriate surface finish and flatness, there is nothing wrong with your existing seal arrangement (face seal with o-ring slightly stretched over the inner lip. The only problem with face seals for this application is the dimensional stability of the assembly. Under increased pressure, the face seal or gasket will deform more, shortening the assembled length. With the radial seal arrangement, the seal is independent of the mechanical load because the parts bear directly on each other. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 25, 2017, 09:11, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Hi Sean,??? One problem is that the motor and gear box just barely fit in the 14" pipe so I can't really increase the material on the inside of the pipe.? At present I have a 1/8" inner lip welded to the inside which mates up with the end cap.? When you say back up rings would those rings be multiple rings in the same groove or separate grooves????or either way??? So I would need to slide a larger diameter end cap?over the casing having the o rings in the casing itself ?? Sean, as a general rule would you say that the larger the piece you're working with the larger the o ring cross section should be?? Just as a mater of tolerances.? ??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:33:48 -0500 I would use a radial seal for this, not a face seal. Turning a groove is generally cheaper than milling one, and a radial groove permits the use of backup rings. The casing side just needs a smooth seal surface and an entry chamfer. The mating part would have a guide chamfer and the seal groove. What sort of clearance do you have on the inside? You mentioned that there is already an inner pipe section? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 24, 2017, 19:14, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: I could probably do that on one end but the other I have the propeller shaft coming thru the end cap , where I have a stainless 2" pipe fitting , that is where the bearing and seals are located. ?Here's a pic of what I have:?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 01:24:11 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Make a steel ring 1\4 thick and use a 1\8 inch thick aluminum plate for a cap. ?If you use a steel cap then make the cap and ring, then clamp together and drill the holes, bolt the two parts together. Then weld the ring to the housing with the cap bolted on. ?The two parts will be perfectly mated for a gasket. ? You can do the same with ss except it is a bugger to drill the ss. ?No machining needed !Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:12:57 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? I still think I would have to machine it flat.? Then I would have to paint it also.? The edges seem to be problematic with painting them, even using epoxy paint.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 00:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Why don't you just drill and bolt flat plates onto a ring with a gasket?. ?Or you can send your material up to me and I can machine them.?Hank On Friday, November 24, 2017, 5:36:02 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? What kind of material are you using aluminum ?? Steel??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor pod solution Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:21:23 +1300 Brian,my latest thruster design is in 3 sections; a front section housing the mechanicalseal & a bearing, the back section housing a bearing & the wiring port, & a centraltubular section. The front & back sections have an o-ring groove & o-ring for sealingon assembly. The 3 sections will be press fitted together then drilled,tapped &?screwed. With the press fit I am regarding the central section as disposable as Iwould probably have to cut in to it to part the sections.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/11/2017, at 12:27 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,??????? Been wrestling with my motor pods?!???The way I decided to mate the two end caps to my motor casing was not the ideal method.? In fact I don't even remember ever?seeing an arrangement like what I have.? I'm squeezing a 1/4" o ring between two 1/4" pieces of pipe and then have side rings inside and out to keep the o ring from expanding out of that area.? Surprisingly it has worked, probably only because there is next to zero pressure.? So not wanting to invite a bad situation of oil leaking into the ocean I decided I need to have a proper sealing scheme.? So that was going to mean I do a hatch style sealing arrangement with? 14" dia stainless steel rings and a o ring groove etc..? So getting quotes?on everything is was beginning to really add up , especially because the 14" pipe is just too big for my lathe , which means I would have to farm that part out !?? The rings themselves were gong to be $600 for each motor pod !? So What I think I'm going to do is to just weld a 1/4" flat ring?on both sides ( end cap and casing)?regular steel,? put them together and then just weld a bead around edge and seal it that way.? Then if I need to get in there I will just grind off the bead and?open it that way.? It?will also be rather easy to weld it back together where I previously ground out the weld on that lip.? ?Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 27 13:52:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 18:52:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] boring tool In-Reply-To: References: <692938108.3520171.1511740087665.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <692938108.3520171.1511740087665@mail.yahoo.com> <152469133.3848105.1511787407287@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1289011647.4200655.1511808761962@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,I have seen them work and they are nice for sure! ?I think to keep it real, I will just torch cut a smaller hole then grind off the hardened surface and machine it with a home made line boring tool.?Hank On Monday, November 27, 2017, 11:33:20 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I have a Bosch mag drill and I love it! They do turn a slow rpm but not an expert in this field though I have drilled threw 1" plate and it goes threw like cutting butter. Contact Bosch and they can tell you. The only draw back to going that route is that not sure if you can rent one and they aren't cheap to buy plus if they do make a 6" bit, it's gonna set you back a pretty penny! good luck.Rick On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I thought about a Mag drill, but I was thinking about taking my small milling machine apart and making a mount on the sphere.? A mag drill could be adapted easier because I could just tack weld a flat plate to the hull for it to sit on. ? I have never used a mag drill and don't know how slow they can turn?? I figure I will have to turn something pretty slow. ?Steve, I don't know if I can cut it out with a milling bit, I have very little experience with this idea.? I could cut it out small with a torch using a circle guide also.? I hate machining torch cut pieces because they tent to surface harden.? I suppose I could grind the hard surface off first. ? I am looking for a easy clean way to do this, before I jump in and do it the hard way.?My goal in to put two small ports in Elementary 3000 without welding them in.? I will machine two holes in the hull and then machine two conical port frames to fit the hull perfectly and will be retained from the inside of the hull.?Any clever ideas to achieve this would be appreciated.Hank On Sunday, November 26, 2017, 11:16:30 PM MST, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,You could probably?get away with using a?holesaw - a one-piece one design for cutting metal, not the adjustable ones for cutting wood.? It would take a while and need lots of coolant and force, but?I think it would be quite doable (I've?seen big ones used on thick steel before).? The big ones aren't cheap though. Or couldn't you?just mill out the circle with a smaller milling bit, so that you end up with a disc that drops out when you finish the?cut? Cheers,Steve On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?Have you checked into a mag drill yet?Rick? On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 1:49 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Is there such a tool that can bore a 6 inch dia hole in 1 inch thick plate.? Some sort of milling machine tool, it needs to machine a precision hole.Hank______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 27 13:50:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 18:50:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] boring tool In-Reply-To: <20171127094548.30F2F34E@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20171127094548.30F2F34E@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1379962065.4196919.1511808615329@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, I ?don't want to weld because it does not need to be welded. ?I am doing this as a test run for Elementary much deeper ;-)?Hank On Monday, November 27, 2017, 10:46:04 AM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? Are you thinking about using O ring seals on the outside and in the opening??? They have big machines that could literally punch a hole like that .? Why don't you want to weld it in??Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] boring tool Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 12:56:47 +0000 (UTC) Rick, I thought about a Mag drill, but I was thinking about taking my small milling machine apart and making a mount on the sphere. ?A mag drill could be adapted easier because I could just tack weld a flat plate to the hull for it to sit on. ? I have never used a mag drill and don't know how slow they can turn? ?I figure I will have to turn something pretty slow. ?Steve, I don't know if I can cut it out with a milling bit, I have very little experience with this idea. ?I could cut it out small with a torch using a circle guide also. ?I hate machining torch cut pieces because they tent to surface harden. ?I suppose I could grind the hard surface off first. ? I am looking for a easy clean way to do this, before I jump in and do it the hard way.?My goal in to put two small ports in Elementary 3000 without welding them in. ?I will machine two holes in the hull and then machine two conical port frames to fit the hull perfectly and will be retained from the inside of the hull.?Any clever ideas to achieve this would be appreciated.Hank On Sunday, November 26, 2017, 11:16:30 PM MST, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,You could probably?get away with using a?holesaw - a one-piece one design for cutting metal, not the adjustable ones for cutting wood.? It would take a while and need lots of coolant and force, but?I think it would be quite doable (I've?seen big ones used on thick steel before).? The big ones aren't cheap though. Or couldn't you?just mill out the circle with a smaller milling bit, so that you end up with a disc that drops out when you finish the?cut? Cheers,Steve On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?Have you checked into a mag drill yet?Rick? On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 1:49 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Is there such a tool that can bore a 6 inch dia hole in 1 inch thick plate.? Some sort of milling machine tool, it needs to machine a precision hole.Hank______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 27 14:01:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 09:01:22 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] boring tool In-Reply-To: <1289011647.4200655.1511808761962@mail.yahoo.com> References: <692938108.3520171.1511740087665.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <692938108.3520171.1511740087665@mail.yahoo.com> <152469133.3848105.1511787407287@mail.yahoo.com> <1289011647.4200655.1511808761962@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Probably a good idea especially looking at the cost for such a limited use! you doing any thing more on your mechanical arm? Rick On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > I have seen them work and they are nice for sure! I think to keep it > real, I will just torch cut a smaller hole then grind off the hardened > surface and machine it with a home made line boring tool. > Hank > > On Monday, November 27, 2017, 11:33:20 AM MST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > > I have a Bosch mag drill and I love it! They do turn a slow rpm but not an > expert in this field though I have drilled threw 1" plate and it goes threw > like cutting butter. Contact Bosch and they can tell you. The only draw > back to going that route is that not sure if you can rent one and they > aren't cheap to buy plus if they do make a 6" bit, it's gonna set you back > a pretty penny! good luck. > Rick > > On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, I thought about a Mag drill, but I was thinking about taking my > small milling machine apart and making a mount on the sphere. A mag drill > could be adapted easier because I could just tack weld a flat plate to the > hull for it to sit on. I have never used a mag drill and don't know how > slow they can turn? I figure I will have to turn something pretty slow. > Steve, I don't know if I can cut it out with a milling bit, I have very > little experience with this idea. I could cut it out small with a torch > using a circle guide also. I hate machining torch cut pieces because they > tent to surface harden. I suppose I could grind the hard surface off > first. I am looking for a easy clean way to do this, before I jump in and > do it the hard way. > My goal in to put two small ports in Elementary 3000 without welding them > in. I will machine two holes in the hull and then machine two conical port > frames to fit the hull perfectly and will be retained from the inside of > the hull. > Any clever ideas to achieve this would be appreciated. > Hank > > > On Sunday, November 26, 2017, 11:16:30 PM MST, Stephen Fordyce via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > You could probably get away with using a holesaw - a one-piece one design > for cutting metal, not the adjustable ones for cutting wood. It would take > a while and need lots of coolant and force, but I think it would be quite > doable (I've seen big ones used on thick steel before). The big ones > aren't cheap though. > > Or couldn't you just mill out the circle with a smaller milling bit, so > that you end up with a disc that drops out when you finish the cut? > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hank, > Have you checked into a mag drill yet? > Rick > > On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 1:49 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi All, > Is there such a tool that can bore a 6 inch dia hole in 1 inch thick > plate. Some sort of milling machine tool, it needs to machine a precision > hole. > Hank > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Nov 27 17:11:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 22:11:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] boring tool In-Reply-To: References: <692938108.3520171.1511740087665.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <692938108.3520171.1511740087665@mail.yahoo.com> <152469133.3848105.1511787407287@mail.yahoo.com> <1289011647.4200655.1511808761962@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1903263421.4337833.1511820702688@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,The new actuator just showed up today, so I will get back on the arm project. ?Just have to move a building tonight and then am back at it.Hank On Monday, November 27, 2017, 12:01:40 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Probably a good idea especially looking at the cost for such a limited use! you doing any thing more on your mechanical arm?Rick On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,I have seen them work and they are nice for sure!? I think to keep it real, I will just torch cut a smaller hole then grind off the hardened surface and machine it with a home made line boring tool.?Hank On Monday, November 27, 2017, 11:33:20 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I have a Bosch mag drill and I love it! They do turn a slow rpm but not an expert in this field though I have drilled threw 1" plate and it goes threw like cutting butter. Contact Bosch and they can tell you. The only draw back to going that route is that not sure if you can rent one and they aren't cheap to buy plus if they do make a 6" bit, it's gonna set you back a pretty penny! good luck.Rick On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I thought about a Mag drill, but I was thinking about taking my small milling machine apart and making a mount on the sphere.? A mag drill could be adapted easier because I could just tack weld a flat plate to the hull for it to sit on. ? I have never used a mag drill and don't know how slow they can turn?? I figure I will have to turn something pretty slow. ?Steve, I don't know if I can cut it out with a milling bit, I have very little experience with this idea.? I could cut it out small with a torch using a circle guide also.? I hate machining torch cut pieces because they tent to surface harden.? I suppose I could grind the hard surface off first. ? I am looking for a easy clean way to do this, before I jump in and do it the hard way.?My goal in to put two small ports in Elementary 3000 without welding them in.? I will machine two holes in the hull and then machine two conical port frames to fit the hull perfectly and will be retained from the inside of the hull.?Any clever ideas to achieve this would be appreciated.Hank On Sunday, November 26, 2017, 11:16:30 PM MST, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank,You could probably?get away with using a?holesaw - a one-piece one design for cutting metal, not the adjustable ones for cutting wood.? It would take a while and need lots of coolant and force, but?I think it would be quite doable (I've?seen big ones used on thick steel before).? The big ones aren't cheap though. Or couldn't you?just mill out the circle with a smaller milling bit, so that you end up with a disc that drops out when you finish the?cut? Cheers,Steve On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,?Have you checked into a mag drill yet?Rick? On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 1:49 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Is there such a tool that can bore a 6 inch dia hole in 1 inch thick plate.? Some sort of milling machine tool, it needs to machine a precision hole.Hank______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 28 14:52:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 19:52:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuators References: <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I have just ?disassembled my new electric actuator and am extremely please with the way it is built. ?It is very light and operates smoothly. ?The speed is perfect and about the same as my hydraulic ?functions on my current arm. ?Air compensating will be a breeze by drilling into the end cap and threading in a fitting. ?A second vent hole will have to be drilled in the casing to allow air to move freely between the two halves of the actuator body. ?I spent about 250 Canadian for one actuator, so a four function arm would be 1,000 dollars. ?I will put it all together and see how it works but I am confident it will be a big improvement on a hydraulic set up both in cost and weight, not to mention complexity. ?By adding air compensation, it gives me an excuse to air compensate my vertical thrusters. ?I will mount a dedicated air tank for this set up.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 28 15:26:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:26:56 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuators In-Reply-To: <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5B252DBA-7CD4-475E-BCF7-A7DACD3F311B@yahoo.com> Hank, You jogged my memory about the actuator being in two separate halves. How are you going to seal the cable entry? Can you drill & tap for a hose fitting & send your air & wires in through that? How are you doing the air compensation; modified second stage regulators or are you adding over pressure as with Cliff / Hugh's relieving regulator? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 29/11/2017, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I have just disassembled my new electric actuator and am extremely please with the way it is built. It is very light and operates smoothly. The speed is perfect and about the same as my hydraulic functions on my current arm. Air compensating will be a breeze by drilling into the end cap and threading in a fitting. A second vent hole will have to be drilled in the casing to allow air to move freely between the two halves of the actuator body. I spent about 250 Canadian for one actuator, so a four function arm would be 1,000 dollars. I will put it all together and see how it works but I am confident it will be a big improvement on a hydraulic set up both in cost and weight, not to mention complexity. By adding air compensation, it gives me an excuse to air compensate my vertical thrusters. I will mount a dedicated air tank for this set up. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 28 16:27:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 21:27:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuators In-Reply-To: <5B252DBA-7CD4-475E-BCF7-A7DACD3F311B@yahoo.com> References: <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917@mail.yahoo.com> <5B252DBA-7CD4-475E-BCF7-A7DACD3F311B@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <168163268.5171570.1511904459323@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,The wires are very well sealed and may be good the way they are. ?I will pressure the actuator up and look for leaks first, but I think it is fine as is. ?I will use the same system Cliff has developed if need be. ?Being the cheap ass that I am, I will first have to test a theory I have. ?I think there is potential to use a O2 regulator from a oxy acetylene ?set up. ?This regulator can take full tank pressure and can be regulated to nothing. ?Plus I have one to play with. ?Hank On Tuesday, November 28, 2017, 1:27:21 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,You jogged my memory about the actuator being in two separate halves.How are you going to seal the cable entry? Can you drill & tap for a hosefitting & send your air & wires in through that?How are you doing the air compensation; modified second stage regulatorsor are you adding over pressure as with Cliff / Hugh's relieving regulator?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/11/2017, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I have just ?disassembled my new electric actuator and am extremely please with the way it is built. ?It is very light and operates smoothly. ?The speed is perfect and about the same as my hydraulic ?functions on my current arm. ?Air compensating will be a breeze by drilling into the end cap and threading in a fitting. ?A second vent hole will have to be drilled in the casing to allow air to move freely between the two halves of the actuator body. ?I spent about 250 Canadian for one actuator, so a four function arm would be 1,000 dollars. ?I will put it all together and see how it works but I am confident it will be a big improvement on a hydraulic set up both in cost and weight, not to mention complexity. ?By adding air compensation, it gives me an excuse to air compensate my vertical thrusters. ?I will mount a dedicated air tank for this set up.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 28 16:33:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 11:33:29 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pictures Message-ID: Most of the pictures I have taken of the construction of the sub has been with my Iphone which my wife says goes to a cloud. I am trying to update my photo page and can't seem to move the pictures from the cloud/phone to my construction page. Any ideas??? Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 28 16:41:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 11:41:24 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT's Message-ID: This is mainly directed to those who have built a K-350. I am thinking about making my main ballast tanks and notice from pictures of others that the front is a different shape than the back and was wondering how you came up with the specific shapes as there are NO offsets on the plans. Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 28 17:09:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 11:09:59 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuators In-Reply-To: <168163268.5171570.1511904459323@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917@mail.yahoo.com> <5B252DBA-7CD4-475E-BCF7-A7DACD3F311B@yahoo.com> <168163268.5171570.1511904459323@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01005946-138E-46B1-A11F-3B9C9A533AA3@yahoo.com> Hank, can the acetylene regulator relieve pressure? Also don't you want a regulator that can be used external to the hull so you eliminate the requirement for any through hulls. You need some way of relieving pressure. If you dive to 500ft there will be 250psi of air in the actuator to make it ambient, but if it's not relieved it will blow the actuator apart before you reach the surface! Another thought was "are there any electronics with electrolytic capacitors in the actuator"? If so they may be vulnerable to pressure. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 29/11/2017, at 10:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > The wires are very well sealed and may be good the way they are. I will pressure the actuator up and look for leaks first, but I think it is fine as is. I will use the same system Cliff has developed if need be. Being the cheap ass that I am, I will first have to test a theory I have. I think there is potential to use a O2 regulator from a oxy acetylene set up. This regulator can take full tank pressure and can be regulated to nothing. Plus I have one to play with. > Hank > > On Tuesday, November 28, 2017, 1:27:21 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > You jogged my memory about the actuator being in two separate halves. > How are you going to seal the cable entry? Can you drill & tap for a hose > fitting & send your air & wires in through that? > How are you doing the air compensation; modified second stage regulators > or are you adding over pressure as with Cliff / Hugh's relieving regulator? > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 29/11/2017, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> I have just disassembled my new electric actuator and am extremely please with the way it is built. It is very light and operates smoothly. The speed is perfect and about the same as my hydraulic functions on my current arm. Air compensating will be a breeze by drilling into the end cap and threading in a fitting. A second vent hole will have to be drilled in the casing to allow air to move freely between the two halves of the actuator body. I spent about 250 Canadian for one actuator, so a four function arm would be 1,000 dollars. I will put it all together and see how it works but I am confident it will be a big improvement on a hydraulic set up both in cost and weight, not to mention complexity. By adding air compensation, it gives me an excuse to air compensate my vertical thrusters. I will mount a dedicated air tank for this set up. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 28 17:30:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 22:30:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuators In-Reply-To: <01005946-138E-46B1-A11F-3B9C9A533AA3@yahoo.com> References: <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917@mail.yahoo.com> <5B252DBA-7CD4-475E-BCF7-A7DACD3F311B@yahoo.com> <168163268.5171570.1511904459323@mail.yahoo.com> <01005946-138E-46B1-A11F-3B9C9A533AA3@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1892810288.5198012.1511908210332@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Yes I believe the O2 regulator can vent and will be in the water. ?It is a diaphragm regulator, I need to tear it down to be sure. ? ?There are no electronics inside the actuator and no need for limit switches. ?They use a unique ball bearing nut on the screw, so the motor just keeps running and the rod stops moving. ?Hank On Tuesday, November 28, 2017, 3:10:24 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,can the acetylene regulator relieve pressure? Also don't you want aregulator that can be used external to the hull so you eliminate the requirementfor any through hulls.You need some way of relieving pressure. If you dive to 500ft there willbe 250psi of air in the actuator to make it ambient, but if it's not relieved it will blowthe actuator apart before you reach the surface!Another thought was "are there any electronics with electrolytic capacitors inthe actuator"? If so they may be vulnerable to pressure.Cheers Alan? Sent from my iPad On 29/11/2017, at 10:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,The wires are very well sealed and may be good the way they are. ?I will pressure the actuator up and look for leaks first, but I think it is fine as is. ?I will use the same system Cliff has developed if need be. ?Being the cheap ass that I am, I will first have to test a theory I have. ?I think there is potential to use a O2 regulator from a oxy acetylene ?set up. ?This regulator can take full tank pressure and can be regulated to nothing. ?Plus I have one to play with. ?Hank On Tuesday, November 28, 2017, 1:27:21 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,You jogged my memory about the actuator being in two separate halves.How are you going to seal the cable entry? Can you drill & tap for a hosefitting & send your air & wires in through that?How are you doing the air compensation; modified second stage regulatorsor are you adding over pressure as with Cliff / Hugh's relieving regulator?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/11/2017, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I have just ?disassembled my new electric actuator and am extremely please with the way it is built. ?It is very light and operates smoothly. ?The speed is perfect and about the same as my hydraulic ?functions on my current arm. ?Air compensating will be a breeze by drilling into the end cap and threading in a fitting. ?A second vent hole will have to be drilled in the casing to allow air to move freely between the two halves of the actuator body. ?I spent about 250 Canadian for one actuator, so a four function arm would be 1,000 dollars. ?I will put it all together and see how it works but I am confident it will be a big improvement on a hydraulic set up both in cost and weight, not to mention complexity. ?By adding air compensation, it gives me an excuse to air compensate my vertical thrusters. ?I will mount a dedicated air tank for this set up.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Nov 28 18:15:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 12:15:31 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuators In-Reply-To: <1892810288.5198012.1511908210332@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1047836033.5080808.1511898734917@mail.yahoo.com> <5B252DBA-7CD4-475E-BCF7-A7DACD3F311B@yahoo.com> <168163268.5171570.1511904459323@mail.yahoo.com> <01005946-138E-46B1-A11F-3B9C9A533AA3@yahoo.com> <1892810288.5198012.1511908210332@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6B84FAA6-DA53-4691-B45E-B18A2CD59C7F@yahoo.com> Hank, that sounds really good. Am interested on how you get on with the regulator & if you can adapt it. I aren't familiar with their workings! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 29/11/2017, at 11:30 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Yes I believe the O2 regulator can vent and will be in the water. It is a diaphragm regulator, I need to tear it down to be sure. There are no electronics inside the actuator and no need for limit switches. They use a unique ball bearing nut on the screw, so the motor just keeps running and the rod stops moving. > Hank > > On Tuesday, November 28, 2017, 3:10:24 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > can the acetylene regulator relieve pressure? Also don't you want a > regulator that can be used external to the hull so you eliminate the requirement > for any through hulls. > You need some way of relieving pressure. If you dive to 500ft there will > be 250psi of air in the actuator to make it ambient, but if it's not relieved it will blow > the actuator apart before you reach the surface! > Another thought was "are there any electronics with electrolytic capacitors in > the actuator"? If so they may be vulnerable to pressure. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 29/11/2017, at 10:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> The wires are very well sealed and may be good the way they are. I will pressure the actuator up and look for leaks first, but I think it is fine as is. I will use the same system Cliff has developed if need be. Being the cheap ass that I am, I will first have to test a theory I have. I think there is potential to use a O2 regulator from a oxy acetylene set up. This regulator can take full tank pressure and can be regulated to nothing. Plus I have one to play with. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, November 28, 2017, 1:27:21 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> You jogged my memory about the actuator being in two separate halves. >> How are you going to seal the cable entry? Can you drill & tap for a hose >> fitting & send your air & wires in through that? >> How are you doing the air compensation; modified second stage regulators >> or are you adding over pressure as with Cliff / Hugh's relieving regulator? >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 29/11/2017, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> I have just disassembled my new electric actuator and am extremely please with the way it is built. It is very light and operates smoothly. The speed is perfect and about the same as my hydraulic functions on my current arm. Air compensating will be a breeze by drilling into the end cap and threading in a fitting. A second vent hole will have to be drilled in the casing to allow air to move freely between the two halves of the actuator body. I spent about 250 Canadian for one actuator, so a four function arm would be 1,000 dollars. I will put it all together and see how it works but I am confident it will be a big improvement on a hydraulic set up both in cost and weight, not to mention complexity. By adding air compensation, it gives me an excuse to air compensate my vertical thrusters. I will mount a dedicated air tank for this set up. >>> Hank >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Nov 29 06:38:44 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 11:38:44 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rick, I didn't actually make my tanks, I got a boatbuilding company to make them. However, I did do the shape. My tank shapes are 1/4 of an ellipse. I drew out the shape on paper using geometry. There are various methods for doing an ellipse. Then I transferred it to a wooden template that then formed the shape. See here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page10114.htm However, I have some suggestions that I would do different. 1. I would make the ellipse a little steeper. ie more of an acute angle. I can get stuck nose or tail up if I do not vent the tanks evenly. 2. Fully enclosed tanks all round would be better. Or as near to it as you can. If you have the standard 15" forward port, you should be able to enclose most of the forward tank. Mine are reasonably enclosed and still spill in rough conditions. 3. Consider saddle tanks as an alternative. Or a combination of both. Im sure ive said this lot before! Kind Regards James On 28 November 2017 at 21:41, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > This is mainly directed to those who have built a K-350. I am thinking about > making my main ballast tanks and notice from pictures of others that the > front is a different shape than the back and was wondering how you came up > with the specific shapes as there are NO offsets on the plans. > Rick > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Nov 29 06:41:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 11:41:32 -0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004801d36907$018a8860$049f9920$@net> Hi Rick I designed my own ballast tank in steel you can see my tanks on my construction photos of casper 2. Graham From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Sent: 28 November 2017 21:41 To: psubs chat room Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT's This is mainly directed to those who have built a K-350. I am thinking about making my main ballast tanks and notice from pictures of others that the front is a different shape than the back and was wondering how you came up with the specific shapes as there are NO offsets on the plans. Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Nov 29 17:05:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 22:05:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ARA San Juan References: <1874793663.4270320.1511993123130.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1874793663.4270320.1511993123130@mail.yahoo.com> https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-undersea-rescue-module-arriving-sub-area-argentina-194653532.html From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 17:58:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:58:26 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] High Pressure Manifold Source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am Limited in what I can fabricate so I look for off-the-shelf solutions most of the time. If you are looking for a high pressure manifold I found the manifolds that are being sold for scuba tank and paintball tank filling to be of the right rating size and reasonably priced. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 20:03:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:03:51 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull Message-ID: <20171130170351.E3C69FF@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 20:12:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:12:22 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull In-Reply-To: <20171130170351.E3C69FF@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20171130170351.E3C69FF@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: Yup. +5V, data+, data-, and ground. Any 4 pin connector should work, but to avoid noise issues you'll probably want to use twisted pair shielded wire, carry the shield through the connector, and depending on the total length of the cable run, 28 to 20 AWG wire (0.81m to 5m length, according to USB 2.0 spec). Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 30, 2017, 18:03, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi All, > Has any one ran usb cable thru the hull and out to a camera or other device? I think it's just 4 wires. > > Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 20:18:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:18:12 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull Message-ID: <20171130171812.E3C695F@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 20:21:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:21:24 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull Message-ID: <20171130172124.E3C56BB@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 20:21:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:21:23 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull In-Reply-To: <20171130171812.E3C695F@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20171130171812.E3C695F@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: No, I meant that the shield should be contiguous from start to end, regardless of how many connectors are in line. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 30, 2017, 18:18, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Sean, So not necessary to have the wire shielded through the short thru hull area? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull > Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:12:22 -0500 > > Yup. +5V, data+, data-, and ground. Any 4 pin connector should work, but to avoid noise issues you'll probably want to use twisted pair shielded wire, carry the shield through the connector, and depending on the total length of the cable run, 28 to 20 AWG wire (0.81m to 5m length, according to USB 2.0 spec). > > Sean > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Nov 30, 2017, 18:03, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> Has any one ran usb cable thru the hull and out to a camera or other device? I think it's just 4 wires. >> >> Brian > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 20:28:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:28:50 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull Message-ID: <20171130172850.E3C56CD@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 20:32:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 01:32:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electric manipulator References: <459275718.5603277.1512091960041.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <459275718.5603277.1512091960041@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Is there way to electronically stop the motor in my actuators? ?My mitre saw has a brake, just wondering what thats all about. ?I have two functions done on the new arm and the actuator coasts to a stop ?witch makes it difficult to control. ?The arm is not under load in these early tests. ?Maybe when the arm is under load it will be better. ?I could put a speed control on the power feed line and the actuators would still be powerful enough. ?The actuator is a bit fast but as I said with no load. ?I think I will do some weight lifting tests tomorrow.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 20:34:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:34:59 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull In-Reply-To: <20171130172124.E3C56BB@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20171130172124.E3C56BB@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: You could connect the connector body / shield to the hull on both sides. The point is just to prevent the cable from picking up any high frequency noise by providing a continuous shield that sinks to ground somehow. On a sub, your hull is "ground". Which USB spec does your camera require? USB 2.0 has a lower data rate and will be less susceptible to noise errors than USB 3.0, for example. I don't like potting multi-conductor cables where there is a leak path within the cable jacket. Break out the conductors to pot, or use a fully water blocked connector. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 30, 2017, 18:21, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Or imbed shielded wire in epoxy? > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull > Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:18:12 -0800 > > Sean, So not necessary to have the wire shielded through the short thru hull area? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull > Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:12:22 -0500 > > Yup. +5V, data+, data-, and ground. Any 4 pin connector should work, but to avoid noise issues you'll probably want to use twisted pair shielded wire, carry the shield through the connector, and depending on the total length of the cable run, 28 to 20 AWG wire (0.81m to 5m length, according to USB 2.0 spec). > > Sean > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Nov 30, 2017, 18:03, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> Has any one ran usb cable thru the hull and out to a camera or other device? I think it's just 4 wires. >> >> Brian > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 21:05:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 15:05:11 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electric manipulator In-Reply-To: <459275718.5603277.1512091960041@mail.yahoo.com> References: <459275718.5603277.1512091960041.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <459275718.5603277.1512091960041@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <116C656B-A519-4799-BE84-124780A54B49@yahoo.com> Hank, I haven't experienced any of my actuators doing that. I am talking about 3 different types & 6 all together. I also have a person hoist with two actuators on it & it is pretty solid! I have run them without controllers, just hooking them up to + & - terminals. Would have thought the gearing would be enough to stop the motor dead once the power was off. Are you running it off the Lenco controller or just wiring it straight from the batteries with a switch in between? Could it have anything to do with the ball bearing system? Have you got something wrong in the reassembly? In it's application on a boat it should be rock solid for positioning the trim tab against a fare amount of force. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 1/12/2017, at 2:32 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Is there way to electronically stop the motor in my actuators? My mitre saw has a brake, just wondering what thats all about. I have two functions done on the new arm and the actuator coasts to a stop witch makes it difficult to control. The arm is not under load in these early tests. Maybe when the arm is under load it will be better. I could put a speed control on the power feed line and the actuators would still be powerful enough. The actuator is a bit fast but as I said with no load. I think I will do some weight lifting tests tomorrow. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 21:37:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 15:37:14 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull In-Reply-To: <20171130172850.E3C56CD@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20171130172850.E3C56CD@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <203E518E-F91A-4A0F-A7C8-87D4285E5CCF@yahoo.com> Brian, can you find a cross sectional diagram of the wire you are talking about? Have attached one I found on line as an example. Looks a nightmare to pot. This item has a plastic jacket & could be put in a compression fitting, however I would do what Carsten & Emile have done & put a blue globe fitting on the inside of the hull as well as the outside. My only reservation about this is that depending on how the wires etc are arranged inside the jacket, it could compress unevenly. You could try & fill the area of the cable that is inside the compression fitting with expoxy by cutting into the jacket & shielding & squirting a low viscosity epoxy in there. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 1/12/2017, at 2:28 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Sean, I'm using and squeeze fitting now for a co-ax line that is good for 600 ft, but there is a plastic core in there that the squeeze fitting can press against, with regular wire it seems like water might try to migrate through. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull > Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:21:23 -0500 > > No, I meant that the shield should be contiguous from start to end, regardless of how many connectors are in line. > > Sean > > > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Nov 30, 2017, 18:18, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, So not necessary to have the wire shielded through the short thru hull area? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull > Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:12:22 -0500 > > Yup. +5V, data+, data-, and ground. Any 4 pin connector should work, but to avoid noise issues you'll probably want to use twisted pair shielded wire, carry the shield through the connector, and depending on the total length of the cable run, 28 to 20 AWG wire (0.81m to 5m length, according to USB 2.0 spec). > > Sean > > > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Nov 30, 2017, 18:03, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > Has any one ran usb cable thru the hull and out to a camera or other device? I think it's just 4 wires. > > Brian > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 34844 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 21:45:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 02:45:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] electric manipulator In-Reply-To: <116C656B-A519-4799-BE84-124780A54B49@yahoo.com> References: <459275718.5603277.1512091960041.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <459275718.5603277.1512091960041@mail.yahoo.com> <116C656B-A519-4799-BE84-124780A54B49@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <696881311.16258.1512096319049@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,It is rock solid when it stops, with no creeping. ?I think the load is so small that the motor coasts to a stop. ?I will try a load on it and make a little video.Hank On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:05:37 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I haven't experienced any of my actuators doing that. I am talking about3 different types & 6 all together. I also have a person hoist with two actuatorson it & it is pretty solid! I have run them without controllers, justhooking them up to + & - terminals. Would have thought the gearing wouldbe enough to stop the motor dead once the power was off. Are yourunning it off the Lenco controller or just wiring it straight from the batterieswith a switch in between?Could it have anything to do with the ball bearing system? Have you gotsomething wrong in the reassembly? In it's application on a boat it should be?rock solid for positioning the trim tab against a fare amount of force.Alan Sent from my iPad On 1/12/2017, at 2:32 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,Is there way to electronically stop the motor in my actuators? ?My mitre saw has a brake, just wondering what thats all about. ?I have two functions done on the new arm and the actuator coasts to a stop ?witch makes it difficult to control. ?The arm is not under load in these early tests. ?Maybe when the arm is under load it will be better. ?I could put a speed control on the power feed line and the actuators would still be powerful enough. ?The actuator is a bit fast but as I said with no load. ?I think I will do some weight lifting tests tomorrow.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 21:59:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 15:59:05 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull In-Reply-To: <203E518E-F91A-4A0F-A7C8-87D4285E5CCF@yahoo.com> References: <20171130172850.E3C56CD@m0117459.ppops.net> <203E518E-F91A-4A0F-A7C8-87D4285E5CCF@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Brian, you got me interested so I googled & found this... https://maritime.org/doc/cabling/part4.htm There are diagrams of potting arrangements for coaxial cable. They attach a wire to the shielding & send that through the potted through hull fitting, then ground that wire. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 1/12/2017, at 3:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Brian, > can you find a cross sectional diagram of the wire you are talking about? > Have attached one I found on line as an example. Looks a nightmare to pot. > This item has a plastic jacket & could be put in a compression fitting, > however I would do what Carsten & Emile have done & put a blue globe > fitting on the inside of the hull as well as the outside. > My only reservation about this is that depending on how the wires etc are > arranged inside the jacket, it could compress unevenly. You could try & fill > the area of the cable that is inside the compression fitting with expoxy by > cutting into the jacket & shielding & squirting a low viscosity epoxy in there. > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 1/12/2017, at 2:28 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Sean, I'm using and squeeze fitting now for a co-ax line that is good for 600 ft, but there is a plastic core in there that the squeeze fitting can press against, with regular wire it seems like water might try to migrate through. >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull >> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:21:23 -0500 >> >> No, I meant that the shield should be contiguous from start to end, regardless of how many connectors are in line. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >> >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Nov 30, 2017, 18:18, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, So not necessary to have the wire shielded through the short thru hull area? >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull >> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:12:22 -0500 >> >> Yup. +5V, data+, data-, and ground. Any 4 pin connector should work, but to avoid noise issues you'll probably want to use twisted pair shielded wire, carry the shield through the connector, and depending on the total length of the cable run, 28 to 20 AWG wire (0.81m to 5m length, according to USB 2.0 spec). >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >> >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Nov 30, 2017, 18:03, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> Has any one ran usb cable thru the hull and out to a camera or other device? I think it's just 4 wires. >> >> Brian >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 21:59:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 18:59:39 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull Message-ID: <20171130185939.E439507@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 34844 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 22:39:44 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 22:39:44 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull In-Reply-To: <20171130185939.E439507@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20171130185939.E439507@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: HDMI is going to be tougher. Four shielded twisted pairs (+ other conductors) with 100 ohm characteristic impedance. Your talking about hundreds of MHz data rates. Finding a through hull / connector that doesn't induce reflections is going to be difficult. You'll need low loss RF quality connections. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 30, 2017, 19:59, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alan, That was my thought and fear exactly ! I'm probably over thinking this as I usually do. I will probably be wanting to do the same thing to an HDMI cable. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 15:37:14 +1300 > Brian, > can you find a cross sectional diagram of the wire you are talking about? > Have attached one I found on line as an example. Looks a nightmare to pot. > This item has a plastic jacket & could be put in a compression fitting, > however I would do what Carsten & Emile have done & put a blue globe > fitting on the inside of the hull as well as the outside. > My only reservation about this is that depending on how the wires etc are > arranged inside the jacket, it could compress unevenly. You could try & fill > the area of the cable that is inside the compression fitting with expoxy by > cutting into the jacket & shielding & squirting a low viscosity epoxy in there. > Alan > > [image1.JPG] > > Sent from my iPad > > On 1/12/2017, at 2:28 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Sean, I'm using and squeeze fitting now for a co-ax line that is good for 600 ft, but there is a plastic core in there that the squeeze fitting can press against, with regular wire it seems like water might try to migrate through. >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull >> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:21:23 -0500 >> >> No, I meant that the shield should be contiguous from start to end, regardless of how many connectors are in line. >> >> Sean >> >> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Nov 30, 2017, 18:18, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Sean, So not necessary to have the wire shielded through the short thru hull area? >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull >>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:12:22 -0500 >>> >>> Yup. +5V, data+, data-, and ground. Any 4 pin connector should work, but to avoid noise issues you'll probably want to use twisted pair shielded wire, carry the shield through the connector, and depending on the total length of the cable run, 28 to 20 AWG wire (0.81m to 5m length, according to USB 2.0 spec). >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Nov 30, 2017, 18:03, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> Has any one ran usb cable thru the hull and out to a camera or other device? I think it's just 4 wires. >>>> >>>> Brian >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 34844 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Nov 30 22:49:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 22:49:38 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull In-Reply-To: References: <20171130185939.E439507@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: Just another thought. You could use standard off the shelf cables run through suitably sized armoured hose, pipe, or tubing, with a standard non locking (friction fit) connector positioned in-line just beyond the hull, and run it through a generously sized ball valve just inside the hull for emergency isolation. The cable could be potted in beyond the in-line connector to limit water ingress in the event of a failure, and then if you do spring a leak, just yank the inner cable out and isolate. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Nov 30, 2017, 20:39, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > HDMI is going to be tougher. Four shielded twisted pairs (+ other conductors) with 100 ohm characteristic impedance. Your talking about hundreds of MHz data rates. Finding a through hull / connector that doesn't induce reflections is going to be difficult. You'll need low loss RF quality connections. > > Sean > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Nov 30, 2017, 19:59, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alan, That was my thought and fear exactly ! I'm probably over thinking this as I usually do. I will probably be wanting to do the same thing to an HDMI cable. >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull >> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 15:37:14 +1300 >> Brian, >> can you find a cross sectional diagram of the wire you are talking about? >> Have attached one I found on line as an example. Looks a nightmare to pot. >> This item has a plastic jacket & could be put in a compression fitting, >> however I would do what Carsten & Emile have done & put a blue globe >> fitting on the inside of the hull as well as the outside. >> My only reservation about this is that depending on how the wires etc are >> arranged inside the jacket, it could compress unevenly. You could try & fill >> the area of the cable that is inside the compression fitting with expoxy by >> cutting into the jacket & shielding & squirting a low viscosity epoxy in there. >> Alan >> >> [image1.JPG] >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 1/12/2017, at 2:28 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Sean, I'm using and squeeze fitting now for a co-ax line that is good for 600 ft, but there is a plastic core in there that the squeeze fitting can press against, with regular wire it seems like water might try to migrate through. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull >>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:21:23 -0500 >>> >>> No, I meant that the shield should be contiguous from start to end, regardless of how many connectors are in line. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Nov 30, 2017, 18:18, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Sean, So not necessary to have the wire shielded through the short thru hull area? >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USB thru hull >>>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:12:22 -0500 >>>> >>>> Yup. +5V, data+, data-, and ground. Any 4 pin connector should work, but to avoid noise issues you'll probably want to use twisted pair shielded wire, carry the shield through the connector, and depending on the total length of the cable run, 28 to 20 AWG wire (0.81m to 5m length, according to USB 2.0 spec). >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, 18:03, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> Has any one ran usb cable thru the hull and out to a camera or other device? I think it's just 4 wires. >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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