[PSUBS-MAILIST] DNVGL
Alan via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Sun Oct 22 15:45:59 EDT 2017
Thanks,
good to see you younger guys getting a good handle on this stuff.
When I talked to DNVGL I was told I would need to submit components
for their scrutiny for type approval. I would also probably need to send
my designs & materials specifications. They literally want to know the
material make up of every screw, nut, bolt, washer & who made them, &
what certification they have etc. You also need a paper trail to prove it.
I would image it would be hugely expensive for something like my
thruster where they would have to look at the compensator, controller
& electrical connections etc. I can remember hearing a figure of $30,000
to get to the point where all your plans ( pneumatic, hydraulic, electrical,
pressure hull etc) are approved.
Others like Carsten, Hugh, Vance & Phil would be more familiar with the process.
It would be great to get one of their certifiers to speak at a psub conference.
Alan
Sent from my iPad
> On 23/10/2017, at 8:02 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> My understanding is that while all systems must be approved by the certifying agency in any case, using type-approved components wherever possible makes that much more of a rubber stamp process, versus racking up billable engineering hours.
>
> Sean T. Stevenson
> +1.587.873.7326
>
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DNVGL
>> Local Time: October 22, 2017 12:54 PM
>> UTC Time: October 22, 2017 6:54 PM
>> From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
>>
>> Don't give up hope (yet) Alan!
>>
>> If you check the DNVGL documentation requirement definitions (RU SHIP Pt1, CH3, sec 2, sub-sec 1.2) you will find that type approval (TA) is basically a short-cut method to avoid being required to submit design paperwork for direct approval (AP) by DNVGL. If allowed, you can submit a type approval instead of having your component individually approved.
>>
>> The good (and bad) news is, the manned submersible rules (RU UWT pt5 chp6 sec2 subsec 5.2) state that *everything* on a sub is AP, subject to approval, so there is no need to use exclusively TA components. Even if you built a sub with only type-approved components, you still need to provide engineering documents, manufacturer certificates, and they all need re-approved by the society on a case-by-case (read: expensive and slow) basis.
>>
>> Or atleast that's what I understand from my reading of the rules. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer god-damn-it!
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -River J. Dolfi
>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 11:36 AM, via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: DNVGL (via Personal_Submersibles)
>>> 2. Re: DNVGL (Alan via Personal_Submersibles)
>>> 3. Markham submarine (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles)
>>> 4. Re: Markham submarine (Alan via Personal_Submersibles)
>>> 5. Fw: actuator (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 19:56:06 -0500
>>> From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DNVGL
>>> Message-ID: <20171022005606.16494.qmail at server268.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Alan,
>>>
>>> I believe you mean there is no Negative or Positive connected to the frame. Earth is neither negative or positive. We are going through the full process and have been working with Jonathan Struwe from DNVGL. Our batteries are lead acid and are coincidentally the exact same as DSV Alvin uses.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Scott Waters
>>>
>>> > -------Original Message-------
>>> > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DNVGL
>>> > Sent: Oct 21 '17 19:38
>>> >
>>> > Scott, River.
>>> > I had a technical advice contract with DNVGL. The reason being so that
>>> > I
>>> > could build to their specifications without going through their
>>> > $100,000
>>> > process. Costs you about the same as an expensive lawyer, but it all
>>> > depends on how many questions you have.
>>> > The electrical rules for submarines over-ride the electrical rules for
>>> > ships.
>>> > If you were totally familiar with their electrical rules you could
>>> > wire up a
>>> > super tanker! A lot in there as they have to cover computerised
>>> > control.
>>> > Sean is right about no earths in submarines.
>>> > The electrical through hulls need to be constructed so that if the
>>> > cable is
>>> > sheared off, no water can ingress. I saw a lot of through-hull
>>> > fittings at
>>> > UI New Orleans & not all had this ability. I guess if you are building
>>> > for a
>>> > predominantly ROV market it isn't so necessary.
>>> > DNVGL normally have reps at UI. I spent quite a bit of time picking
>>> > their
>>> > brains when I went there.
>>> > They are flexible in some areas & have a golden rule that no one
>>> > failure
>>> > can result in a major event.
>>> > What sort of batteries have you got?
>>> > Deep Sea Power & Light have an ABS type certification on their oil
>>> > compensated
>>> > battery.
>>> > http://www.deepsea.com/?s=sea+battery
>>> > South West Electronics have a compensated lithium battery. They were
>>> > looking to get type approval from one or more of the big certifiers
>>> > but I don't
>>> > know if they did, or whether it's in process.
>>> > https://www.swe.com/seasafe-subsea-modules/
>>> > Alan
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my iPad
>>> >
>>> > On 22/10/2017, at 6:11 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles
>>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Scott and I have been driving ourselves crazy trying to interpret
>>> > > the DNVGL rules on subsea electrical cables. We think that the
>>> > > essence of the problem is that DNVGL lacks rules specific to
>>> > > oil-compensated external battery banks (except being subject to
>>> > > "approval by the society"), and to the best of our knowledge DNVGL
>>> > > has yet to certify any submersible with external ambient batteries.
>>> > >
>>> > > One rule in particular is making us scratch our heads.. UWT pt4 ch8
>>> > > sec2-1.3 states that "All cables in the outer area shall comply with
>>> > > (cargo ship cable rules section). All cables shall have an EARTHED
>>> > > braiding or screen around the conductors and be equipped with an
>>> > > insulating outer sheet." If this is applicable to the main battery
>>> > > cable, damage could potentially create an incredibly dangerous
>>> > > ground fault condition where high voltage is passed to the sphere.
>>> > > While this requirement makes sense for low-voltage electronics who
>>> > > require protection from electromagnetic interference, it appears to
>>> > > be nonsense when applied to a high-voltage DC power cable.
>>> > >
>>> > > Thanks,
>>> > >
>>> > > -River J. Dolfi
>>> >
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> >
>>> > -------------------------
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 14:49:32 +1300
>>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DNVGL
>>> Message-ID: <14BFB98A-2F58-441F-BF41-17126199E698 at yahoo.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>
>>> Scott,
>>> earth can mean a common return path for electrical current, as
>>> in a car. That is what I was referring to.
>>> Didn't know you were going through the whole process. What fun!
>>> I have kind of given up on it as I am building a lot of stuff myself,
>>> like lights, thrusters, solenoid ballast valves & electronic contents gauge.
>>> All these would need to go through their type approval process.
>>> I believe they have a list of DNVGL type approved items that you can
>>> choose from if you want something off the shelf.
>>> Something I found amusing was that they said you need 4 days emergency
>>> food. I asked them what they meant by this, "2 chickens in a chilli bin"
>>> They specified seven oceans emergency rations!
>>> Cheers Alan
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> > On 22/10/2017, at 1:56 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Alan,
>>> >
>>> > I believe you mean there is no Negative or Positive connected to the frame. Earth is neither negative or positive. We are going through the full process and have been working with Jonathan Struwe from DNVGL. Our batteries are lead acid and are coincidentally the exact same as DSV Alvin uses.
>>> >
>>> > Thank you,
>>> > Scott Waters
>>> >
>>> >> -------Original Message-------
>>> >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DNVGL
>>> >> Sent: Oct 21 '17 19:38
>>> >>
>>> >> Scott, River.
>>> >> I had a technical advice contract with DNVGL. The reason being so that
>>> >> I
>>> >> could build to their specifications without going through their
>>> >> $100,000
>>> >> process. Costs you about the same as an expensive lawyer, but it all
>>> >> depends on how many questions you have.
>>> >> The electrical rules for submarines over-ride the electrical rules for
>>> >> ships.
>>> >> If you were totally familiar with their electrical rules you could
>>> >> wire up a
>>> >> super tanker! A lot in there as they have to cover computerised
>>> >> control.
>>> >> Sean is right about no earths in submarines.
>>> >> The electrical through hulls need to be constructed so that if the
>>> >> cable is
>>> >> sheared off, no water can ingress. I saw a lot of through-hull
>>> >> fittings at
>>> >> UI New Orleans & not all had this ability. I guess if you are building
>>> >> for a
>>> >> predominantly ROV market it isn't so necessary.
>>> >> DNVGL normally have reps at UI. I spent quite a bit of time picking
>>> >> their
>>> >> brains when I went there.
>>> >> They are flexible in some areas & have a golden rule that no one
>>> >> failure
>>> >> can result in a major event.
>>> >> What sort of batteries have you got?
>>> >> Deep Sea Power & Light have an ABS type certification on their oil
>>> >> compensated
>>> >> battery.
>>> >> http://www.deepsea.com/?s=sea+battery
>>> >> South West Electronics have a compensated lithium battery. They were
>>> >> looking to get type approval from one or more of the big certifiers
>>> >> but I don't
>>> >> know if they did, or whether it's in process.
>>> >> https://www.swe.com/seasafe-subsea-modules/
>>> >> Alan
>>> >>
>>> >> Sent from my iPad
>>> >>
>>> >> On 22/10/2017, at 6:11 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles
>>> >> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Scott and I have been driving ourselves crazy trying to interpret
>>> >>> the DNVGL rules on subsea electrical cables. We think that the
>>> >>> essence of the problem is that DNVGL lacks rules specific to
>>> >>> oil-compensated external battery banks (except being subject to
>>> >>> "approval by the society"), and to the best of our knowledge DNVGL
>>> >>> has yet to certify any submersible with external ambient batteries.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> One rule in particular is making us scratch our heads.. UWT pt4 ch8
>>> >>> sec2-1.3 states that "All cables in the outer area shall comply with
>>> >>> (cargo ship cable rules section). All cables shall have an EARTHED
>>> >>> braiding or screen around the conductors and be equipped with an
>>> >>> insulating outer sheet." If this is applicable to the main battery
>>> >>> cable, damage could potentially create an incredibly dangerous
>>> >>> ground fault condition where high voltage is passed to the sphere.
>>> >>> While this requirement makes sense for low-voltage electronics who
>>> >>> require protection from electromagnetic interference, it appears to
>>> >>> be nonsense when applied to a high-voltage DC power cable.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Thanks,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -River J. Dolfi
>>> >>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> >>
>>> >> -------------------------
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 00:02:06 -0400
>>> From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles
>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: psubs list <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Markham submarine
>>> Message-ID: <a78e2abb-8044-7c1d-69cf-6dd2d004661e at ohiohills.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>>
>>> Does anyone have the entire Popular Science article from June, 1968?? I
>>> found someone who might be interested in building the thing, but I can't
>>> get the whole PS thing.? Google books didn't let me find a few of the pages.
>>>
>>> There's a source for the plans online but the article provides more
>>> information.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> ---
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 19:42:33 +1300
>>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Markham submarine
>>> Message-ID: <3AD8B768-4DEE-4553-8F06-E5D39348D2A8 at yahoo.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>> you can buy it on amazon.
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Popular-Science-Astronaut-Exciting-Adventure/dp/B001PL5V2A
>>> Alan
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> > On 22/10/2017, at 5:02 PM, Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Does anyone have the entire Popular Science article from June, 1968? I found someone who might be interested in building the thing, but I can't get the whole PS thing. Google books didn't let me find a few of the pages.
>>> >
>>> > There's a source for the plans online but the article provides more information.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Mike
>>> >
>>> > ---
>>> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 16:32:12 +0000 (UTC)
>>> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: actuator
>>> Message-ID: <401687781.1998185.1508689932939 at mail.yahoo.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Hi All,Here is a picture of my first electric liner actuator that is fully submersible. ?The actuator can lift 50lbs ?at 1 inch per second approximately. ?The actuator cost me 50 dollars Canadian to make. ?This one has a 4 inch stroke and is well suited for the second sage on the manipulator. ? ?I can either air compensate ?or oil compensate the actuator. ?I can also put 160 psi inside permanently and use with no compensation to an undetermined depth. ?Hank
>>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: hank pronk <hankpronk at live.ca>To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2017, 10:24:59 AM MDTSubject: Fw: actuator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: xxx xxxxx <mp13 at live.ca>
>>> Sent: October 22, 2017 10:23 AM
>>> To: Hendrik
>>> Subject: actuator?
>>>
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