From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 2 09:59:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2017 08:59:05 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED recommendations In-Reply-To: <042a01d31fd4$b4d76860$1e863920$@nl> References: <51722a70-961f-0786-9e80-8f4a5c40ef10@psubs.org> <042a01d31fd4$b4d76860$1e863920$@nl> Message-ID: Emile's email got me back on the Psubs 10K LED light project which has been on hold waiting for a driver. This LED driver is perfect for driving the 10K lumen Bridgelux LED array we spected. It will work for 12V, 24V and 36V system. Also because it is so small it enabled me to reduce the size of the 1-atm enclosure to 3" diameter x 2.85" long. In the spirt of KISS a custom PCB has been abandoned as well as the provisions for dimming. The driver has provisions for dimming but for this installation, it is not implemented. With not having a custom PCB we loose the polarity and overcurrent protection but the driver has built in overtemperature proection. I have updated the drawings for the light and Jon has uploaded them to the PSUBS.org site. See http://www.psubs.org/design/ and click on Lights to download PDF drawings including a wiring diagram. I completed an FEA analysis and the enclosure should be good for 1000m. At this point we need to build one of the lights as a prototype and test. I have a test chamber I can use to test the light. I am thinking about fabricating one of the lights for the bow of my boat but I have to figure out where to mount it and how to get power to it. This is a draft set of drawings. Comments/suggestions welcome. Regards Cliff On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 3:07 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Jon, > > The Pilotfish team and me developed a UW LED lamp. Since the Norway > expedition on my sub. So happy with it that I like to recommend it. > It is a Bridgelux Vero 29 unit with 80 Watt (abt. 300 watt Halogen) Wide > (90-100 deg) angle but that is okay for a sub. Housing is can go down to > 800 M and has a 80 mm OD. > Dimmable, I don?t run it at full power. > LED driver 6-40 VDC : https://pcb-components.de/led- > aufwaertswandler-boost-step-up/led-senser-xtreme-200- > 2050ma-6v-30v-detail.html > > > Br, Emile > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > Namens Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: maandag 28 augustus 2017 4:29 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED recommendations > > > While we're in the middle of an LED investigation, can those of you > actively diving with LED lighting give us a guideline on a range of lumens > we should be striving for (per lamp), how many lamps, spot or flood? > > I know Alec was using an oil-filled 3000 lumen lamp on SNOOPY before > selling it. I've been looking at PRIMELUX 8100 lumen lamp that seems like > it could be easily adapted for oil or air compensation. Generally I would > say more light is better but also need to be careful about power > consumption so I don't want to purchase more light than is necessary for > general operations. > > Jon > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 2 17:23:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2017 14:23:25 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED recommendations Message-ID: <20170902142325.342C11A3@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 2 18:37:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2017 08:37:33 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <51722a70-961f-0786-9e80-8f4a5c40ef10@psubs.org> <042a01d31fd4$b4d76860$1e863920$@nl> Message-ID: <0018B510-6049-49D6-AD89-1CBF91D904C0@yahoo.com> Cliff, did Emile say he was running this driver off 24V? It says in the user manual.... ) Connect the power supply. It is important to ensure that the input voltage <= Total-Led voltage. (Boost-principle). If not the LED(s) get to much voltage and can damage! You may be pushing the limits if your led output voltage is set at 38V & your input voltage is 40V. I have read in other step up manuals that there needed to be a 2V boost difference. ie If your input was 36V your output needed to be 38V. I am not sure what will happen if your input is above the output setting. Perhaps it will bump the output up by 2V above the input. Can you email the manufacturer & ask them if it would be suitable for our application? Having said that; on a 36V battery bank the charge will settle down to below 40V in time. This is just the problem that I spent ages googling to try & find an answer for. The 36V system is just in the wrong range for these 36V LEDs. Cheers Alan I Sent from my iPad > On 2/09/2017, at 11:59 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Emile's email got me back on the Psubs 10K LED light project which has been on hold waiting for a driver. This LED driver is perfect for driving the 10K lumen Bridgelux LED array we spected. It will work for 12V, 24V and 36V system. Also because it is so small it enabled me to reduce the size of the 1-atm enclosure to 3" diameter x 2.85" long. In the spirt of KISS a custom PCB has been abandoned as well as the provisions for dimming. The driver has provisions for dimming but for this installation, it is not implemented. With not having a custom PCB we loose the polarity and overcurrent protection but the driver has built in overtemperature proection. I have updated the drawings for the light and Jon has uploaded them to the PSUBS.org site. See http://www.psubs.org/design/ and click on Lights to download PDF drawings including a wiring diagram. I completed an FEA analysis and the enclosure should be good for 1000m. At this point we need to build one of the lights as a prototype and test. I have a test chamber I can use to test the light. I am thinking about fabricating one of the lights for the bow of my boat but I have to figure out where to mount it and how to get power to it. > > This is a draft set of drawings. Comments/suggestions welcome. > > Regards > > Cliff > >> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 3:07 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi Jon, >> >> The Pilotfish team and me developed a UW LED lamp. Since the Norway expedition on my sub. So happy with it that I like to recommend it. >> It is a Bridgelux Vero 29 unit with 80 Watt (abt. 300 watt Halogen) Wide (90-100 deg) angle but that is okay for a sub. Housing is can go down to 800 M and has a 80 mm OD. >> Dimmable, I don?t run it at full power. >> LED driver 6-40 VDC : https://pcb-components.de/led-aufwaertswandler-boost-step-up/led-senser-xtreme-200-2050ma-6v-30v-detail.html >> >> >> Br, Emile >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> Verzonden: maandag 28 augustus 2017 4:29 >> Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED recommendations >> >> >> While we're in the middle of an LED investigation, can those of you actively diving with LED lighting give us a guideline on a range of lumens we should be striving for (per lamp), how many lamps, spot or flood? >> >> I know Alec was using an oil-filled 3000 lumen lamp on SNOOPY before selling it. I've been looking at PRIMELUX 8100 lumen lamp that seems like it could be easily adapted for oil or air compensation. Generally I would say more light is better but also need to be careful about power consumption so I don't want to purchase more light than is necessary for general operations. >> >> Jon >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 2 21:52:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2017 20:52:04 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED recommendations In-Reply-To: <0018B510-6049-49D6-AD89-1CBF91D904C0@yahoo.com> References: <51722a70-961f-0786-9e80-8f4a5c40ef10@psubs.org> <042a01d31fd4$b4d76860$1e863920$@nl> <0018B510-6049-49D6-AD89-1CBF91D904C0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan I have ordered two of the drivers and will do some bench testing. With my AGM batteries after a full charge I am setting at about 38.5-39V. The LED driver has a soft start so when my four other LED come on, the battery voltage will be pull down so I am thinking I will be close but ok. I will let you know how the test come out. Regards Cliff On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > did Emile say he was running this driver off 24V? > It says in the user manual.... > > 1. > > ) Connect the power supply. > It is important to ensure that the input voltage <= Total-Led voltage. > (Boost-principle). If not the LED(s) get to much voltage and can damage! > > You may be pushing the limits if your led output voltage is set at 38V > & your input > > voltage is 40V. I have read in other step up manuals that there > needed to be a 2V boost difference. ie If your input was 36V your > output needed to be 38V. I am not sure > > what will happen if your input is above the output setting. Perhaps it > will bump the > > output up by 2V above the input. > > Can you email the manufacturer & ask them if it would be suitable for > our application? > > Having said that; on a 36V battery bank the charge will settle down to > below 40V in time. > > This is just the problem that I spent ages googling to try & find an > answer for. > > The 36V system is just in the wrong range for these 36V LEDs. > > > Cheers Alan > > I > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 2/09/2017, at 11:59 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Emile's email got me back on the Psubs 10K LED light project which has > been on hold waiting for a driver. This LED driver is perfect for driving > the 10K lumen Bridgelux LED array we spected. It will work for 12V, 24V > and 36V system. Also because it is so small it enabled me to reduce the > size of the 1-atm enclosure to 3" diameter x 2.85" long. In the spirt of > KISS a custom PCB has been abandoned as well as the provisions for > dimming. The driver has provisions for dimming but for this installation, > it is not implemented. With not having a custom PCB we loose the polarity > and overcurrent protection but the driver has built in overtemperature > proection. I have updated the drawings for the light and Jon has uploaded > them to the PSUBS.org site. See > http://www.psubs.org/design/ and click on Lights to download PDF > drawings including a wiring diagram. I completed an FEA analysis and the > enclosure should be good for 1000m. At this point we need to build one of > the lights as a prototype and test. I have a test chamber I can use to > test the light. I am thinking about fabricating one of the lights for the > bow of my boat but I have to figure out where to mount it and how to get > power to it. > > This is a draft set of drawings. Comments/suggestions welcome. > > Regards > > Cliff > > On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 3:07 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Jon, >> >> The Pilotfish team and me developed a UW LED lamp. Since the Norway >> expedition on my sub. So happy with it that I like to recommend it. >> It is a Bridgelux Vero 29 unit with 80 Watt (abt. 300 watt Halogen) Wide >> (90-100 deg) angle but that is okay for a sub. Housing is can go down to >> 800 M and has a 80 mm OD. >> Dimmable, I don?t run it at full power. >> LED driver 6-40 VDC : https://pcb-components.de/led- >> aufwaertswandler-boost-step-up/led-senser-xtreme-200-2050ma- >> 6v-30v-detail.html >> >> >> Br, Emile >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- >> bounces at psubs.org] Namens Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> Verzonden: maandag 28 augustus 2017 4:29 >> Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED recommendations >> >> >> While we're in the middle of an LED investigation, can those of you >> actively diving with LED lighting give us a guideline on a range of lumens >> we should be striving for (per lamp), how many lamps, spot or flood? >> >> I know Alec was using an oil-filled 3000 lumen lamp on SNOOPY before >> selling it. I've been looking at PRIMELUX 8100 lumen lamp that seems like >> it could be easily adapted for oil or air compensation. Generally I would >> say more light is better but also need to be careful about power >> consumption so I don't want to purchase more light than is necessary for >> general operations. >> >> Jon >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 3 02:12:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2017 16:12:41 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <51722a70-961f-0786-9e80-8f4a5c40ef10@psubs.org> <042a01d31fd4$b4d76860$1e863920$@nl> <0018B510-6049-49D6-AD89-1CBF91D904C0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Cliff, thanks I would be interested in how it works out. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 3/09/2017, at 11:52 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan I have ordered two of the drivers and will do some bench testing. With my AGM batteries after a full charge I am setting at about 38.5-39V. The LED driver has a soft start so when my four other LED come on, the battery voltage will be pull down so I am thinking I will be close but ok. I will let you know how the test come out. > > Regards > > Cliff > >> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Cliff, >> did Emile say he was running this driver off 24V? >> It says in the user manual.... >> ) Connect the power supply. >> It is important to ensure that the input voltage <= Total-Led voltage. (Boost-principle). If not the LED(s) get to much voltage and can damage! >> >> You may be pushing the limits if your led output voltage is set at 38V & your input >> >> voltage is 40V. I have read in other step up manuals that there needed to be a 2V boost difference. ie If your input was 36V your output needed to be 38V. I am not sure >> >> what will happen if your input is above the output setting. Perhaps it will bump the >> >> output up by 2V above the input. >> >> Can you email the manufacturer & ask them if it would be suitable for our application? >> >> Having said that; on a 36V battery bank the charge will settle down to below 40V in time. >> >> This is just the problem that I spent ages googling to try & find an answer for. >> >> The 36V system is just in the wrong range for these 36V LEDs. >> >> >> >> Cheers Alan >> >> I >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 2/09/2017, at 11:59 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Emile's email got me back on the Psubs 10K LED light project which has been on hold waiting for a driver. This LED driver is perfect for driving the 10K lumen Bridgelux LED array we spected. It will work for 12V, 24V and 36V system. Also because it is so small it enabled me to reduce the size of the 1-atm enclosure to 3" diameter x 2.85" long. In the spirt of KISS a custom PCB has been abandoned as well as the provisions for dimming. The driver has provisions for dimming but for this installation, it is not implemented. With not having a custom PCB we loose the polarity and overcurrent protection but the driver has built in overtemperature proection. I have updated the drawings for the light and Jon has uploaded them to the PSUBS.org site. See http://www.psubs.org/design/ and click on Lights to download PDF drawings including a wiring diagram. I completed an FEA analysis and the enclosure should be good for 1000m. At this point we need to build one of the lights as a prototype and test. I have a test chamber I can use to test the light. I am thinking about fabricating one of the lights for the bow of my boat but I have to figure out where to mount it and how to get power to it. >>> >>> This is a draft set of drawings. Comments/suggestions welcome. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 3:07 AM, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Hi Jon, >>>> >>>> The Pilotfish team and me developed a UW LED lamp. Since the Norway expedition on my sub. So happy with it that I like to recommend it. >>>> It is a Bridgelux Vero 29 unit with 80 Watt (abt. 300 watt Halogen) Wide (90-100 deg) angle but that is okay for a sub. Housing is can go down to 800 M and has a 80 mm OD. >>>> Dimmable, I don?t run it at full power. >>>> LED driver 6-40 VDC : https://pcb-components.de/led-aufwaertswandler-boost-step-up/led-senser-xtreme-200-2050ma-6v-30v-detail.html >>>> >>>> >>>> Br, Emile >>>> >>>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >>>> Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >>>> Verzonden: maandag 28 augustus 2017 4:29 >>>> Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED recommendations >>>> >>>> >>>> While we're in the middle of an LED investigation, can those of you actively diving with LED lighting give us a guideline on a range of lumens we should be striving for (per lamp), how many lamps, spot or flood? >>>> >>>> I know Alec was using an oil-filled 3000 lumen lamp on SNOOPY before selling it. I've been looking at PRIMELUX 8100 lumen lamp that seems like it could be easily adapted for oil or air compensation. Generally I would say more light is better but also need to be careful about power consumption so I don't want to purchase more light than is necessary for general operations. >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 4 12:23:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 16:23:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor rewinding References: <1112221761.2556143.1504542188529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112221761.2556143.1504542188529@mail.yahoo.com> Okay, I apologize to the Chinese motor controller people. ?Turns out I have a bad armature in my thruster motor. ?The first relays burt up because I thought they were on the small side, but now that I have monster relays, I have discovered it is the motor. ?I tested the armature windings against the good motor and found it is bad and in need of rewinding. ?I found a place an hr away that does this. ?But if they are too expensive, I will rewind it myself.Has anyone here done this, it looks simple enough on youtube ;-)Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 4 17:11:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 09:11:24 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor rewinding In-Reply-To: <1112221761.2556143.1504542188529@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1112221761.2556143.1504542188529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1112221761.2556143.1504542188529@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <11F7632C-9DBA-45C4-9D89-A1AE7A5E4DD9@yahoo.com> Hank, like you I have seen the videos! you might be able to get the wire winders opinion on the condition of the rest of the motor & advice on motor controllers, fly back diodes etc. If they are small enough you could ask if you could watch the process. If you do it yourself you'll have to find a supplier of the correct wire gauge. It could be expensive buying a small quantity compared to a motor winders bulk purchase. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 5/09/2017, at 4:23 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Okay, I apologize to the Chinese motor controller people. Turns out I have a bad armature in my thruster motor. The first relays burt up because I thought they were on the small side, but now that I have monster relays, I have discovered it is the motor. I tested the armature windings against the good motor and found it is bad and in need of rewinding. I found a place an hr away that does this. But if they are too expensive, I will rewind it myself. > Has anyone here done this, it looks simple enough on youtube ;-) > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 4 17:43:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 21:43:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor rewinding In-Reply-To: <11F7632C-9DBA-45C4-9D89-A1AE7A5E4DD9@yahoo.com> References: <1112221761.2556143.1504542188529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1112221761.2556143.1504542188529@mail.yahoo.com> <11F7632C-9DBA-45C4-9D89-A1AE7A5E4DD9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <242333046.2668136.1504561392699@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I have decided to find new motors to put inside my housings. ?The magnets are probably weak from age also. ?Not a big deal, I just reorganized my motors and voltage and will be operational next weekend. ?The lakes are all shut down, the back country is totally off limits because we have a bunch of fires. ?I had to quit working in my shop just now because the smoke is so bad. ?Hank On Monday, September 4, 2017, 3:14:48 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,like you I have seen the videos!you might be able to get the wire winders opinion on the condition ofthe rest of the motor & advice on motor controllers, fly backdiodes etc. If they are small enough you could ask if you couldwatch the process.?If you do it yourself you'll have to find a supplier of the correct?wire gauge. It could be expensive buying a small quantitycompared to a motor winders bulk purchase.Alan Sent from my iPad On 5/09/2017, at 4:23 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Okay, I apologize to the Chinese motor controller people. ?Turns out I have a bad armature in my thruster motor. ?The first relays burt up because I thought they were on the small side, but now that I have monster relays, I have discovered it is the motor. ?I tested the armature windings against the good motor and found it is bad and in need of rewinding. ?I found a place an hr away that does this. ?But if they are too expensive, I will rewind it myself.Has anyone here done this, it looks simple enough on youtube ;-)Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 4 19:13:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 11:13:41 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor rewinding In-Reply-To: <242333046.2668136.1504561392699@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1112221761.2556143.1504542188529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1112221761.2556143.1504542188529@mail.yahoo.com> <11F7632C-9DBA-45C4-9D89-A1AE7A5E4DD9@yahoo.com> <242333046.2668136.1504561392699@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <87B1D739-8AED-4333-B374-49134F5BE1D6@yahoo.com> Hank, sounds a good idea! Hope they get those fires under control! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 5/09/2017, at 9:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I have decided to find new motors to put inside my housings. The magnets are probably weak from age also. Not a big deal, I just reorganized my motors and voltage and will be operational next weekend. The lakes are all shut down, the back country is totally off limits because we have a bunch of fires. I had to quit working in my shop just now because the smoke is so bad. > Hank > > On Monday, September 4, 2017, 3:14:48 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > like you I have seen the videos! > you might be able to get the wire winders opinion on the condition of > the rest of the motor & advice on motor controllers, fly back > diodes etc. If they are small enough you could ask if you could > watch the process. > If you do it yourself you'll have to find a supplier of the correct > wire gauge. It could be expensive buying a small quantity > compared to a motor winders bulk purchase. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 5/09/2017, at 4:23 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Okay, I apologize to the Chinese motor controller people. Turns out I have a bad armature in my thruster motor. The first relays burt up because I thought they were on the small side, but now that I have monster relays, I have discovered it is the motor. I tested the armature windings against the good motor and found it is bad and in need of rewinding. I found a place an hr away that does this. But if they are too expensive, I will rewind it myself. >> Has anyone here done this, it looks simple enough on youtube ;-) >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 5 09:46:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 14:46:52 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Smoke mask Message-ID: I have a couple of these in the new shop as there is an upstairs area I could get trapped in if there was a fire downstairs. This would at least give me a fighting chance of getting out. Just thought it may be an option for a "smoke in the cabin" scenario. Not as good as Scotts EBA of course, but then its only ?25. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Emergency-Escape-Industrial-Urban-Survival/dp/B00AM3I8H2?tag=blogfiremask-21 From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 5 15:33:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 21:33:19 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Smoke mask In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07c501d3267d$d46ee040$7d4ca0c0$@nl> It doesn't state the working principle. It might work the same way as the escape hoods we had on our naval frigate. That unit produced oxygen on a chemical way when activated. I have scuba gear for such a cas but that will create overpressure quickly. Br, Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: dinsdag 5 september 2017 15:47 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Smoke mask I have a couple of these in the new shop as there is an upstairs area I could get trapped in if there was a fire downstairs. This would at least give me a fighting chance of getting out. Just thought it may be an option for a "smoke in the cabin" scenario. Not as good as Scotts EBA of course, but then its only ?25. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Emergency-Escape-Industrial-Urban-Survival/dp/B00AM3I8H2?tag=blogfiremask-21 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 5 20:56:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 20:56:30 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions Message-ID: Hi All, I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the pressure hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the batteries is charging. (h2)? -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT it will be great. -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in submarine dome forming. -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. tanks Philippe phelop at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 5 21:54:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 21:54:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Philippe and congrats on the undertaking! I had a K250 for about 12 years, so here are my two cents. 1) Precisely because they are in the cabin, I would recommend AGM batteries for safety. Of course true that Kittredge used traditional lead-acid for years without incident, but since there is something safer these days, it seems logical to make use of that. 2) On my boat I added saddle tanks and they worked well, but as a complement to the standard ones. You can see pictures here: http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/snoopyin2012/ If my saddle tanks had been the only tanks, they would have needed to be larger, but that can also create some complications related to longitudinal stability, and the side thrusters don't make it any easier. In short yes it should be possible, and as an example you might look up the K250 called "Great White" (although I have only seen photos of it which don't show all the details of the MBTs.) However, the standard tanks should not be too hard to make, they are a good shape to lay fiberglass because there are no sharp edges, which are an invitation to forming bubbles as lay the cloth. I'm really bad at fiberglass work myself, but the standard MBTs are a good first project. 3) For the acrylic my advice is the opposite - I would not even try that myself and would go to the experts. There are two here, Greg and Emile. Greg is without a fabrication facility at the moment, so I that leaves Emile. 4) There are indeed a couple of K250s up on the great lakes. Perhaps someone will speak up... Best, Alec On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 8:56 PM, Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the > metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about > batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. > > -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the pressure > hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the > batteries is charging. (h2)? > > -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have > no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT > it will be great. > > -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in > submarine dome forming. > > -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, > Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour > or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. > > tanks > > Philippe > > phelop at gmail.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 6 00:04:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2017 06:04:19 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Were i can contact Emile for the acrylic? thank`s 2017-09-06 3:54 GMT+02:00 Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > Hi Philippe and congrats on the undertaking! I had a K250 for about 12 > years, so here are my two cents. > > 1) Precisely because they are in the cabin, I would recommend AGM > batteries for safety. Of course true that Kittredge used traditional > lead-acid for years without incident, but since there is something safer > these days, it seems logical to make use of that. > > 2) On my boat I added saddle tanks and they worked well, but as a > complement to the standard ones. You can see pictures here: > http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/snoopyin2012/ > > If my saddle tanks had been the only tanks, they would have needed to be > larger, but that can also create some complications related to longitudinal > stability, and the side thrusters don't make it any easier. In short yes it > should be possible, and as an example you might look up the K250 called > "Great White" (although I have only seen photos of it which don't show all > the details of the MBTs.) However, the standard tanks should not be too > hard to make, they are a good shape to lay fiberglass because there are no > sharp edges, which are an invitation to forming bubbles as lay the cloth. > I'm really bad at fiberglass work myself, but the standard MBTs are a good > first project. > > 3) For the acrylic my advice is the opposite - I would not even try that > myself and would go to the experts. There are two here, Greg and Emile. > Greg is without a fabrication facility at the moment, so I that leaves > Emile. > > 4) There are indeed a couple of K250s up on the great lakes. Perhaps > someone will speak up... > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 8:56 PM, Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the >> metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about >> batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. >> >> -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the >> pressure hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the >> batteries is charging. (h2)? >> >> -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have >> no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT >> it will be great. >> >> -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in >> submarine dome forming. >> >> -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, >> Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour >> or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. >> >> tanks >> >> Philippe >> >> phelop at gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 6 00:38:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 21:38:04 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions Message-ID: <28614847.10882.1504672684940@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 6 05:23:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2017 09:23:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29906916.3755193.1504689796387@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Philippe,It is nice to hear of another project getting under way. ?I think if you are building from scratch, the side mount MBT's are the only way to go. ?You can use four tanks with a space between the tanks for the side thruster wash. ?I think however that steel tanks might be to heavy for a K250 , making the sub behave poorly when you transition from floating to sinking. ?You will have to do some calculations first, I would recommend aluminum tanks over fibreglass. ?My sub also had lead acid batteries in a sealed compartment with an air flow system for charging. ?I went with AGM batteries for the simplicity and added safety. ?Hank On Tuesday, September 5, 2017, 6:56:48 PM MDT, Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the pressure hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the batteries is charging. (h2)? -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT it will be great. -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in submarine dome forming. -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. tanks Philippe? phelop at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 6 05:37:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2017 10:37:56 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Smoke mask In-Reply-To: <07c501d3267d$d46ee040$7d4ca0c0$@nl> References: <07c501d3267d$d46ee040$7d4ca0c0$@nl> Message-ID: Hi emile, Its nothing that complicated. Its simply a filter. So no pressure change. But if you look at the pictures on the left, one of them is a testimonial from a fireman who tested it in the smoke tower. Seemed to hold up well to the test. I just have the mask and scuba set the same as you and if I did get a smoke in the cabin, id be heading upwards quickly... James On 5 September 2017 at 20:33, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > It doesn't state the working principle. > It might work the same way as the escape hoods we had on our naval frigate. That unit produced oxygen on a chemical way when activated. > > I have scuba gear for such a cas but that will create overpressure quickly. > > Br, Emile > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: dinsdag 5 september 2017 15:47 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Smoke mask > > I have a couple of these in the new shop as there is an upstairs area I could get trapped in if there was a fire downstairs. This would at least give me a fighting chance of getting out. > > Just thought it may be an option for a "smoke in the cabin" scenario. > Not as good as Scotts EBA of course, but then its only ?25. > > https://www.amazon.co.uk/Emergency-Escape-Industrial-Urban-Survival/dp/B00AM3I8H2?tag=blogfiremask-21 > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 6 06:55:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2017 11:55:18 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions In-Reply-To: <29906916.3755193.1504689796387@mail.yahoo.com> References: <29906916.3755193.1504689796387@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Phillippe, As others have said, AGM's and Emile for the dome. I would try and make it so you can open the hatch from outside. If the hatch hinge bracket is the same as the K350, make it stronger. I feel like if I lean too hard on the open hatch, it could bend the bracket. With regards to the tanks. If your only diving lakes and flat calm water, the standard tanks are good. Tried and tested. Rough weather and open sea is a different story. The tanks allow the boat to ride well and I find it takes the open sea well, but the tanks spill air. I made semi enclosed and they still lose air in rough water. I can tell you it is unnerving to be in open sea and you boat is trying to dive without you wanting it to. Enclosing the tanks fully would solve this problem. If it were me, I would make the standard tanks, but then almost fully enclose them all round with just a water inlet hole. Could be made to fit around the forward viewport so you can still see. Then make smaller saddle tanks as well like Alec. You get all the benefits. Good longitudinal stability for rough weather. No air loss. Auxiliary tanks for added cross stability and freeboard. I might even do a picture....slow day at work... :) Kind Regards James ? On 6 September 2017 at 10:23, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Philippe, > It is nice to hear of another project getting under way. I think if you > are building from scratch, the side mount MBT's are the only way to go. > You can use four tanks with a space between the tanks for the side thruster > wash. I think however that steel tanks might be to heavy for a K250 , > making the sub behave poorly when you transition from floating to sinking. > You will have to do some calculations first, I would recommend aluminum > tanks over fibreglass. My sub also had lead acid batteries in a sealed > compartment with an air flow system for charging. I went with AGM > batteries for the simplicity and added safety. > Hank > > On Tuesday, September 5, 2017, 6:56:48 PM MDT, Philippe Robert via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, > > I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the > metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about > batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. > > -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the pressure > hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the > batteries is charging. (h2)? > > -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have > no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT > it will be great. > > -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in > submarine dome forming. > > -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, > Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour > or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. > > tanks > > Philippe > > phelop at gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: K250.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28533 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 6 13:31:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2017 17:31:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions In-Reply-To: References: <29906916.3755193.1504689796387@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <340269409.4076825.1504719106469@mail.yahoo.com> James,Have you been out this summer with your sub or too busy with your shop?Hank On Wednesday, September 6, 2017, 4:55:38 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Phillippe, As others?have?said, AGM's and Emile for the dome. I would try and make it so you can open the hatch from outside. If the hatch hinge bracket is the same as the K350, make it stronger.? I feel like if I lean too hard on the open hatch, it could bend the?bracket.? With regards to the tanks.?? If your only diving lakes and flat calm water, the standard tanks are good.? Tried and tested. Rough weather and open sea is a different story. The tanks allow the boat to ride well and I find it takes the open sea well,?but the tanks spill air.? I made semi enclosed and they still lose air in?rough water.?? I can tell you it is unnerving to be in open sea and you boat is trying to?dive without you wanting it to. Enclosing the tanks fully would solve this problem. If it were me, I would make the standard tanks, but then almost fully enclose them all round with just a water inlet hole.? Could be made to fit around the forward viewport so you can still see.? Then make smaller saddle tanks as well like Alec. You get all the benefits.? Good longitudinal stability for rough weather.?? No air loss.? Auxiliary tanks for added cross stability and freeboard. I might even do a picture....slow day at work... :) Kind RegardsJames ? ? On 6 September 2017 at 10:23, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Philippe,It is nice to hear of another project getting under way.? I think if you are building from scratch, the side mount MBT's are the only way to go.? You can use four tanks with a space between the tanks for the side thruster wash.? I think however that steel tanks might be to heavy for a K250 , making the sub behave poorly when you transition from floating to sinking.? You will have to do some calculations first, I would recommend aluminum tanks over fibreglass.? My sub also had lead acid batteries in a sealed compartment with an air flow system for charging.? I went with AGM batteries for the simplicity and added safety. ?Hank On Tuesday, September 5, 2017, 6:56:48 PM MDT, Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the pressure hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the batteries is charging. (h2)? -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT it will be great. -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in submarine dome forming. -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. tanks Philippe? phelop at gmail.com ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: K250.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28533 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 6 18:07:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2017 17:07:53 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?EBA!!!?= Message-ID: <20170906220753.14480.qmail@server268.com> PSubbers, KISS Rebreather is currently making 3 Emergency Breathing Apparatuses for Pisces and they will be done in about 3 weeks. When they are done I will post pictures. The discount is good till the end of October. If you have any questions let me know. Sorry about the delay with getting pictures. Thank you, Scott Waters From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 6 21:26:49 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2017 21:26:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions In-Reply-To: <340269409.4076825.1504719106469@mail.yahoo.com> References: <29906916.3755193.1504689796387@mail.yahoo.com> <340269409.4076825.1504719106469@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, Tanks for all you'r idea and experiences. AGM is quite expensive ! Tanks James for the picture ! Hank,James and Alec wow for all of you'r projects ! Philippe 2017-09-06 13:31 GMT-04:00 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > James, > Have you been out this summer with your sub or too busy with your shop? > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 6, 2017, 4:55:38 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Phillippe, > > As others have said, AGM's and Emile for the dome. > > I would try and make it so you can open the hatch from outside. > > If the hatch hinge bracket is the same as the K350, make it stronger. I > feel like if I lean too hard on the open hatch, it could bend the bracket. > > With regards to the tanks. If your only diving lakes and flat calm > water, the standard tanks are good. Tried and tested. > > Rough weather and open sea is a different story. > > The tanks allow the boat to ride well and I find it takes the open sea > well, but the tanks spill air. I made semi enclosed and they still lose > air in rough water. I can tell you it is unnerving to be in open sea and > you boat is trying to dive without you wanting it to. > > Enclosing the tanks fully would solve this problem. > > If it were me, I would make the standard tanks, but then almost fully > enclose them all round with just a water inlet hole. Could be made to fit > around the forward viewport so you can still see. Then make smaller saddle > tanks as well like Alec. > > You get all the benefits. Good longitudinal stability for rough > weather. No air loss. Auxiliary tanks for added cross stability and > freeboard. > > I might even do a picture....slow day at work... :) > > Kind Regards > James > > > ? > > > > > > > > On 6 September 2017 at 10:23, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Philippe, > It is nice to hear of another project getting under way. I think if you > are building from scratch, the side mount MBT's are the only way to go. > You can use four tanks with a space between the tanks for the side thruster > wash. I think however that steel tanks might be to heavy for a K250 , > making the sub behave poorly when you transition from floating to sinking. > You will have to do some calculations first, I would recommend aluminum > tanks over fibreglass. My sub also had lead acid batteries in a sealed > compartment with an air flow system for charging. I went with AGM > batteries for the simplicity and added safety. > Hank > > On Tuesday, September 5, 2017, 6:56:48 PM MDT, Philippe Robert via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi All, > > I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the > metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about > batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. > > -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the pressure > hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the > batteries is charging. (h2)? > > -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have > no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT > it will be great. > > -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in > submarine dome forming. > > -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, > Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour > or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. > > tanks > > Philippe > > phelop at gmail.com > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: K250.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28533 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 6 23:00:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 05:00:26 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions In-Reply-To: <28614847.10882.1504672684940@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <28614847.10882.1504672684940@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: in usa who make then? 2017-09-06 6:38 GMT+02:00 irox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > Hi Roberto, Philippe, > > I purchased one of Emile's domes from here: > https://www.airesearch.nl/products/ > > Very happy to get it, but full disclosure, I've not actually fitted it or > dive with it on my K250 restoration (oh-my-god-why-didn't-i-build-one-from-scratch) > project. > > Cheers, > Ian. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sep 5, 2017 9:04 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions > > Were i can contact Emile for the acrylic? thank`s > > 2017-09-06 3:54 GMT+02:00 Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > >> Hi Philippe and congrats on the undertaking! I had a K250 for about 12 >> years, so here are my two cents. >> >> 1) Precisely because they are in the cabin, I would recommend AGM >> batteries for safety. Of course true that Kittredge used traditional >> lead-acid for years without incident, but since there is something safer >> these days, it seems logical to make use of that. >> >> 2) On my boat I added saddle tanks and they worked well, but as a >> complement to the standard ones. You can see pictures here: >> http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/snoopyin2012/ >> >> If my saddle tanks had been the only tanks, they would have needed to be >> larger, but that can also create some complications related to longitudinal >> stability, and the side thrusters don't make it any easier. In short yes it >> should be possible, and as an example you might look up the K250 called >> "Great White" (although I have only seen photos of it which don't show all >> the details of the MBTs.) However, the standard tanks should not be too >> hard to make, they are a good shape to lay fiberglass because there are no >> sharp edges, which are an invitation to forming bubbles as lay the cloth. >> I'm really bad at fiberglass work myself, but the standard MBTs are a good >> first project. >> >> 3) For the acrylic my advice is the opposite - I would not even try that >> myself and would go to the experts. There are two here, Greg and Emile. >> Greg is without a fabrication facility at the moment, so I that leaves >> Emile. >> >> 4) There are indeed a couple of K250s up on the great lakes. Perhaps >> someone will speak up... >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 8:56 PM, Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the >>> metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about >>> batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. >>> >>> -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the >>> pressure hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the >>> batteries is charging. (h2)? >>> >>> -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have >>> no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT >>> it will be great. >>> >>> -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in >>> submarine dome forming. >>> >>> -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New >>> Hamphire, Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. >>> An hour or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. >>> >>> tanks >>> >>> Philippe >>> >>> phelop at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 04:03:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 09:03:28 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions In-Reply-To: <340269409.4076825.1504719106469@mail.yahoo.com> References: <29906916.3755193.1504689796387@mail.yahoo.com> <340269409.4076825.1504719106469@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi hank. No, it's been hopeless this summer. I have been trying to get in for the last 4weeks and every time something seems to crop up to spoil it. Weather. Lack of divers, work, support boat issues, defender transfer box failure. Also been really busy in the new shop. However, I've fixed the car. Weather permitting I am going to launch off the beach next week into deeper water and much more interesting location. I have a friend with a large telehandler that will lift the sub off the trailer and I will wait for the tide to come up. We have big tides in Guernsey, up to 10m. Going to run out of summer soon.... Anyway, hope for next week. James On Wednesday, 6 September 2017, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, > Have you been out this summer with your sub or too busy with your shop? > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 6, 2017, 4:55:38 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi Phillippe, > > As others have said, AGM's and Emile for the dome. > > I would try and make it so you can open the hatch from outside. > > If the hatch hinge bracket is the same as the K350, make it stronger. I > feel like if I lean too hard on the open hatch, it could bend the bracket. > > With regards to the tanks. If your only diving lakes and flat calm > water, the standard tanks are good. Tried and tested. > > Rough weather and open sea is a different story. > > The tanks allow the boat to ride well and I find it takes the open sea > well, but the tanks spill air. I made semi enclosed and they still lose > air in rough water. I can tell you it is unnerving to be in open sea and > you boat is trying to dive without you wanting it to. > > Enclosing the tanks fully would solve this problem. > > If it were me, I would make the standard tanks, but then almost fully > enclose them all round with just a water inlet hole. Could be made to fit > around the forward viewport so you can still see. Then make smaller saddle > tanks as well like Alec. > > You get all the benefits. Good longitudinal stability for rough > weather. No air loss. Auxiliary tanks for added cross stability and > freeboard. > > I might even do a picture....slow day at work... :) > > Kind Regards > James > > > ? > > > > > > > > On 6 September 2017 at 10:23, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > wrote: > > Hi Philippe, > It is nice to hear of another project getting under way. I think if you > are building from scratch, the side mount MBT's are the only way to go. > You can use four tanks with a space between the tanks for the side thruster > wash. I think however that steel tanks might be to heavy for a K250 , > making the sub behave poorly when you transition from floating to sinking. > You will have to do some calculations first, I would recommend aluminum > tanks over fibreglass. My sub also had lead acid batteries in a sealed > compartment with an air flow system for charging. I went with AGM > batteries for the simplicity and added safety. > Hank > > On Tuesday, September 5, 2017, 6:56:48 PM MDT, Philippe Robert via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi All, > > I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the > metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about > batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. > > -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the pressure > hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the > batteries is charging. (h2)? > > -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have > no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT > it will be great. > > -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in > submarine dome forming. > > -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, > Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour > or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. > > tanks > > Philippe > > phelop at gmail.com > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: K250.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28533 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 05:57:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 09:57:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions In-Reply-To: References: <29906916.3755193.1504689796387@mail.yahoo.com> <340269409.4076825.1504719106469@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1921717519.4550590.1504778258635@mail.yahoo.com> James,Good luck, it would be a pity to have missed the entire summer without a dive.Hank. On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 2:03:50 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi hank.? No, it's been hopeless this summer. ? I have been trying to get in for the last 4weeks and every time something seems to crop up to spoil it.? Weather. Lack of divers, work, support boat issues, defender?transfer box failure.? Also been really busy in the new shop.?However, I've fixed the car. ? Weather permitting I am going to launch off the beach next week into deeper water?and much more interesting location.? I have?a friend with a large telehandler?that will lift the sub off the trailer and I will wait for the tide to come up.? We have big?tides in Guernsey, up to 10m. ?Going to run out of summer soon....Anyway, hope for next week.James On Wednesday, 6 September 2017, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James,Have you been out this summer with your sub or too busy with your shop?Hank On Wednesday, September 6, 2017, 4:55:38 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Phillippe, As others?have?said, AGM's and Emile for the dome. I would try and make it so you can open the hatch from outside. If the hatch hinge bracket is the same as the K350, make it stronger.? I feel like if I lean too hard on the open hatch, it could bend the?bracket.? With regards to the tanks.?? If your only diving lakes and flat calm water, the standard tanks are good.? Tried and tested. Rough weather and open sea is a different story. The tanks allow the boat to ride well and I find it takes the open sea well,?but the tanks spill air.? I made semi enclosed and they still lose air in?rough water.?? I can tell you it is unnerving to be in open sea and you boat is trying to?dive without you wanting it to. Enclosing the tanks fully would solve this problem. If it were me, I would make the standard tanks, but then almost fully enclose them all round with just a water inlet hole.? Could be made to fit around the forward viewport so you can still see.? Then make smaller saddle tanks as well like Alec. You get all the benefits.? Good longitudinal stability for rough weather.?? No air loss.? Auxiliary tanks for added cross stability and freeboard. I might even do a picture....slow day at work... :) Kind RegardsJames ? ? On 6 September 2017 at 10:23, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Philippe,It is nice to hear of another project getting under way.? I think if you are building from scratch, the side mount MBT's are the only way to go.? You can use four tanks with a space between the tanks for the side thruster wash.? I think however that steel tanks might be to heavy for a K250 , making the sub behave poorly when you transition from floating to sinking.? You will have to do some calculations first, I would recommend aluminum tanks over fibreglass.? My sub also had lead acid batteries in a sealed compartment with an air flow system for charging.? I went with AGM batteries for the simplicity and added safety. ?Hank On Tuesday, September 5, 2017, 6:56:48 PM MDT, Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the pressure hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the batteries is charging. (h2)? -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT it will be great. -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in submarine dome forming. -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. tanks Philippe? phelop at gmail.com ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: K250.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28533 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 08:35:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 13:35:50 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions In-Reply-To: <1921717519.4550590.1504778258635@mail.yahoo.com> References: <29906916.3755193.1504689796387@mail.yahoo.com> <340269409.4076825.1504719106469@mail.yahoo.com> <1921717519.4550590.1504778258635@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: agreed. I will get in before summer is over. On 7 September 2017 at 10:57, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, > Good luck, it would be a pity to have missed the entire summer without a > dive. > Hank. > > On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 2:03:50 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi hank. No, it's been hopeless this summer. I have been trying to get > in for the last 4weeks and every time something seems to crop up to spoil > it. Weather. Lack of divers, work, support boat issues, defender transfer > box failure. Also been really busy in the new shop. > However, I've fixed the car. > Weather permitting I am going to launch off the beach next week into > deeper water and much more interesting location. I have a friend with a > large telehandler that will lift the sub off the trailer and I will wait > for the tide to come up. We have big tides in Guernsey, up to 10m. > Going to run out of summer soon.... > Anyway, hope for next week. > James > > > On Wednesday, 6 September 2017, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > James, > Have you been out this summer with your sub or too busy with your shop? > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 6, 2017, 4:55:38 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Phillippe, > > As others have said, AGM's and Emile for the dome. > > I would try and make it so you can open the hatch from outside. > > If the hatch hinge bracket is the same as the K350, make it stronger. I > feel like if I lean too hard on the open hatch, it could bend the bracket. > > With regards to the tanks. If your only diving lakes and flat calm > water, the standard tanks are good. Tried and tested. > > Rough weather and open sea is a different story. > > The tanks allow the boat to ride well and I find it takes the open sea > well, but the tanks spill air. I made semi enclosed and they still lose > air in rough water. I can tell you it is unnerving to be in open sea and > you boat is trying to dive without you wanting it to. > > Enclosing the tanks fully would solve this problem. > > If it were me, I would make the standard tanks, but then almost fully > enclose them all round with just a water inlet hole. Could be made to fit > around the forward viewport so you can still see. Then make smaller saddle > tanks as well like Alec. > > You get all the benefits. Good longitudinal stability for rough > weather. No air loss. Auxiliary tanks for added cross stability and > freeboard. > > I might even do a picture....slow day at work... :) > > Kind Regards > James > > > ? > > > > > > > > On 6 September 2017 at 10:23, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org> wrote: > > Hi Philippe, > It is nice to hear of another project getting under way. I think if you > are building from scratch, the side mount MBT's are the only way to go. > You can use four tanks with a space between the tanks for the side thruster > wash. I think however that steel tanks might be to heavy for a K250 , > making the sub behave poorly when you transition from floating to sinking. > You will have to do some calculations first, I would recommend aluminum > tanks over fibreglass. My sub also had lead acid batteries in a sealed > compartment with an air flow system for charging. I went with AGM > batteries for the simplicity and added safety. > Hank > > On Tuesday, September 5, 2017, 6:56:48 PM MDT, Philippe Robert via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, > > I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the > metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about > batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. > > -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the pressure > hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the > batteries is charging. (h2)? > > -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have > no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT > it will be great. > > -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in > submarine dome forming. > > -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, > Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour > or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. > > tanks > > Philippe > > phelop at gmail.com > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: K250.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28533 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 09:51:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 9:51:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question Message-ID: <20170907135103.JY5AJ.147232.root@cdptpa-web06> All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners (L). In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion of these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original build welded up/filled). However, I am finding it would be nice if I could drill a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior parts. I believe I am looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single stiffener web. Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result from a few small holes isn't straight forward. I guess I am looking for some feedback from those who understand the web function of an L stiffener better than I. My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too anal. Thanks, Steve From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 10:17:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2017 07:17:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: pxDUdQFQ7vNWZpxDWdQyxE References: pxDUdQFQ7vNWZpxDWdQyxE Message-ID: The minimum moment of inertia of the combined section of the stiffener plus an effective length of the pressure boundary shell may be specified by design, but in any case is to be calculated in consideration of the minimum at the locations where any holes exist. Holes in the flange are far more detrimental than holes in the web, with the mininum impact hole being a hole which is coincident with the neutral axis across the combined section. (i.e. holes drilled in the center of the web of an I-beam have the least impact). Better than drilling holes would be to simply clamp to stiffener rings, or weld on brackets or studs such that no material is removed from the stiffener section. Otherwise you do have to account for the reduced moment of inertia of the stiffener section at the hole location in your buckling, inter-stiffener strength and stuffener tripping calculations. Sean On September 7, 2017 6:51:03 AM PDT, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners (L). > >In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion of >these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original >build welded up/filled). However, I am finding it would be nice if I >could drill a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior parts. >I believe I am looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single >stiffener web. > >Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result from >a few small holes isn't straight forward. I guess I am looking for >some feedback from those who understand the web function of an L >stiffener better than I. > >My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too >anal. > >Thanks, >Steve >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 10:24:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 10:24:16 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20170907142416.AUXVH.147706.root@cdptpa-web06> Sean, thanks. I was hoping you would respond : ) I did have a clamping approach in mind that I will revisit. Thanks, Steve ---- "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > The minimum moment of inertia of the combined section of the stiffener plus an effective length of the pressure boundary shell may be specified by design, but in any case is to be calculated in consideration of the minimum at the locations where any holes exist. Holes in the flange are far more detrimental than holes in the web, with the mininum impact hole being a hole which is coincident with the neutral axis across the combined section. (i.e. holes drilled in the center of the web of an I-beam have the least impact). > > Better than drilling holes would be to simply clamp to stiffener rings, or weld on brackets or studs such that no material is removed from the stiffener section. Otherwise you do have to account for the reduced moment of inertia of the stiffener section at the hole location in your buckling, inter-stiffener strength and stuffener tripping calculations. > > Sean > > > On September 7, 2017 6:51:03 AM PDT, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners (L). > > > >In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion of > >these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original > >build welded up/filled). However, I am finding it would be nice if I > >could drill a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior parts. > >I believe I am looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single > >stiffener web. > > > >Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result from > >a few small holes isn't straight forward. I guess I am looking for > >some feedback from those who understand the web function of an L > >stiffener better than I. > > > >My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too > >anal. > > > >Thanks, > >Steve > >_______________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 10:41:13 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2017 14:41:13 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: <20170907135103.JY5AJ.147232.root@cdptpa-web06> References: <20170907135103.JY5AJ.147232.root@cdptpa-web06> Message-ID: Hi Steve I agree that it would be difficult to effectively calculate what significance holes would make in the T bar stiffeners so I personally am not doing it as those stiffeners play a big role in the integrity of the hull especially if it is slightly out of round. I do know that stress in steel flows along it like a wave in the ocean and slowing down or quickly diverting it causes problems which is called a notch effect so I am tig welding stainless nuts where needed to attach things to. Someone else in the group awhile ago mentioned that Home Depot sold aluminum window stops that would clamp onto the edges of the T bar frames with a SS set screw. I am not a structural engineer but I wouldn't think it would be a good idea to drill holes in a structural member but someone like Sean might know. Rick On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 6:51 AM Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners (L). > > In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion of > these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original build > welded up/filled). However, I am finding it would be nice if I could drill > a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior parts. I believe I am > looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single stiffener web. > > Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result from a > few small holes isn't straight forward. I guess I am looking for some > feedback from those who understand the web function of an L stiffener > better than I. > > My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too anal. > > Thanks, > Steve > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 11:03:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 10:03:20 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: <20170907135103.JY5AJ.147232.root@cdptpa-web06> References: <20170907135103.JY5AJ.147232.root@cdptpa-web06> Message-ID: Steve, I agree with Sean's description of how a hole in the stiffener affects the stress but from a practical perspective, I think if you placed a few small diameter holes, say 1/4" diameter equally spaced around he flange in the center of the web the impact would be negligible. I would have no problem doing this. Calculating the impact on crush depth would be a pain in the butt as you would have to run full non linear FEA analysis at design depth with and without the holes to see difference in stresses. There would be a lot of other items that would be more likely to kill you than this. Cliff On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners (L). > > In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion of > these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original build > welded up/filled). However, I am finding it would be nice if I could drill > a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior parts. I believe I am > looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single stiffener web. > > Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result from a > few small holes isn't straight forward. I guess I am looking for some > feedback from those who understand the web function of an L stiffener > better than I. > > My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too anal. > > Thanks, > Steve > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 12:23:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 12:23:23 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: <20170907142416.AUXVH.147706.root@cdptpa-web06> References: <20170907142416.AUXVH.147706.root@cdptpa-web06> Message-ID: Steve, If you go to a hardware store you might find some little aluminum security devices for locking sliding doors. I'm sure TrueValue has better (wink wink for Scott) but at Home Depot I found some that fit the K250 stiffener flanges perfectly. They clamp on with a set screw, and give you a tab you can drill for attaching things. Best, Alec On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Sean, thanks. I was hoping you would respond : ) I did have a clamping > approach in mind that I will revisit. > Thanks, > Steve > > ---- "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > The minimum moment of inertia of the combined section of the stiffener > plus an effective length of the pressure boundary shell may be specified by > design, but in any case is to be calculated in consideration of the minimum > at the locations where any holes exist. Holes in the flange are far more > detrimental than holes in the web, with the mininum impact hole being a > hole which is coincident with the neutral axis across the combined section. > (i.e. holes drilled in the center of the web of an I-beam have the least > impact). > > > > Better than drilling holes would be to simply clamp to stiffener rings, > or weld on brackets or studs such that no material is removed from the > stiffener section. Otherwise you do have to account for the reduced moment > of inertia of the stiffener section at the hole location in your buckling, > inter-stiffener strength and stuffener tripping calculations. > > > > Sean > > > > > > On September 7, 2017 6:51:03 AM PDT, Steve McQueen via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners (L). > > > > > >In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion of > > >these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original > > >build welded up/filled). However, I am finding it would be nice if I > > >could drill a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior parts. > > >I believe I am looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single > > >stiffener web. > > > > > >Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result from > > >a few small holes isn't straight forward. I guess I am looking for > > >some feedback from those who understand the web function of an L > > >stiffener better than I. > > > > > >My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too > > >anal. > > > > > >Thanks, > > >Steve > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 12:31:44 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 12:31:44 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20170907163144.88KHQ.149521.root@cdptpa-web06> Yes, I have some. I am planning on using them for the light weight stuff. The holes I was contemplating were to help hold a little more weight than those devices might. I was hoping I was done with all the welding but maybe not. Thanks, Steve ---- Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Steve, > > If you go to a hardware store you might find some little aluminum security > devices for locking sliding doors. I'm sure TrueValue has better (wink wink > for Scott) but at Home Depot I found some that fit the K250 stiffener > flanges perfectly. They clamp on with a set screw, and give you a tab you > can drill for attaching things. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Sean, thanks. I was hoping you would respond : ) I did have a clamping > > approach in mind that I will revisit. > > Thanks, > > Steve > > > > ---- "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > The minimum moment of inertia of the combined section of the stiffener > > plus an effective length of the pressure boundary shell may be specified by > > design, but in any case is to be calculated in consideration of the minimum > > at the locations where any holes exist. Holes in the flange are far more > > detrimental than holes in the web, with the mininum impact hole being a > > hole which is coincident with the neutral axis across the combined section. > > (i.e. holes drilled in the center of the web of an I-beam have the least > > impact). > > > > > > Better than drilling holes would be to simply clamp to stiffener rings, > > or weld on brackets or studs such that no material is removed from the > > stiffener section. Otherwise you do have to account for the reduced moment > > of inertia of the stiffener section at the hole location in your buckling, > > inter-stiffener strength and stuffener tripping calculations. > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > On September 7, 2017 6:51:03 AM PDT, Steve McQueen via > > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > >All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners (L). > > > > > > > >In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion of > > > >these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original > > > >build welded up/filled). However, I am finding it would be nice if I > > > >could drill a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior parts. > > > >I believe I am looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single > > > >stiffener web. > > > > > > > >Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result from > > > >a few small holes isn't straight forward. I guess I am looking for > > > >some feedback from those who understand the web function of an L > > > >stiffener better than I. > > > > > > > >My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too > > > >anal. > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > >Steve > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 13:08:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2017 17:08:31 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: <20170907163144.88KHQ.149521.root@cdptpa-web06> References: <20170907163144.88KHQ.149521.root@cdptpa-web06> Message-ID: Doesn't look like my posts are coming through. Anybody seeing them? Rick On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Yes, I have some. I am planning on using them for the light weight stuff. > The holes I was contemplating were to help hold a little more weight than > those devices might. I was hoping I was done with all the welding but > maybe not. > > Thanks, > Steve > > ---- Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Steve, > > > > If you go to a hardware store you might find some little aluminum > security > > devices for locking sliding doors. I'm sure TrueValue has better (wink > wink > > for Scott) but at Home Depot I found some that fit the K250 stiffener > > flanges perfectly. They clamp on with a set screw, and give you a tab you > > can drill for attaching things. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > Sean, thanks. I was hoping you would respond : ) I did have a clamping > > > approach in mind that I will revisit. > > > Thanks, > > > Steve > > > > > > ---- "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < > > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > The minimum moment of inertia of the combined section of the > stiffener > > > plus an effective length of the pressure boundary shell may be > specified by > > > design, but in any case is to be calculated in consideration of the > minimum > > > at the locations where any holes exist. Holes in the flange are far > more > > > detrimental than holes in the web, with the mininum impact hole being a > > > hole which is coincident with the neutral axis across the combined > section. > > > (i.e. holes drilled in the center of the web of an I-beam have the > least > > > impact). > > > > > > > > Better than drilling holes would be to simply clamp to stiffener > rings, > > > or weld on brackets or studs such that no material is removed from the > > > stiffener section. Otherwise you do have to account for the reduced > moment > > > of inertia of the stiffener section at the hole location in your > buckling, > > > inter-stiffener strength and stuffener tripping calculations. > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > On September 7, 2017 6:51:03 AM PDT, Steve McQueen via > > > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > >All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners > (L). > > > > > > > > > >In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion > of > > > > >these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original > > > > >build welded up/filled). However, I am finding it would be nice if > I > > > > >could drill a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior > parts. > > > > >I believe I am looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single > > > > >stiffener web. > > > > > > > > > >Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result > from > > > > >a few small holes isn't straight forward. I guess I am looking for > > > > >some feedback from those who understand the web function of an L > > > > >stiffener better than I. > > > > > > > > > >My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too > > > > >anal. > > > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > >Steve > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 13:36:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2017 10:36:38 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question Message-ID: <613954.92130.bm@smtp204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Reaching me. Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/7/17 10:08 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question Doesn't look like my posts are coming through. Anybody seeing them?Rick? On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, I have some. I am planning on using them for the light weight stuff.? The holes I was contemplating were to help hold a little more weight than those devices might. I was hoping I was done with? all the welding but maybe not. Thanks, Steve ---- Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Steve, > > If you go to a hardware store you might find some little aluminum security > devices for locking sliding doors. I'm sure TrueValue has better (wink wink > for Scott) but at Home Depot I found some that fit the K250 stiffener > flanges perfectly. They clamp on with a set screw, and give you a tab you > can drill for attaching things. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Sean, thanks. I was hoping you would respond : )? I did have a clamping > > approach in mind that I will revisit. > > Thanks, > > Steve > > > > ---- "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > The minimum moment of inertia of the combined section of the stiffener > > plus an effective length of the pressure boundary shell may be specified by > > design, but in any case is to be calculated in consideration of the minimum > > at the locations where any holes exist. Holes in the flange are far more > > detrimental than holes in the web, with the mininum impact hole being a > > hole which is coincident with the neutral axis across the combined section. > > (i.e. holes drilled in the center of the web of an I-beam have the least > > impact). > > > > > > Better than drilling holes would be to simply clamp to stiffener rings, > > or weld on brackets or studs such that no material is removed from the > > stiffener section. Otherwise you do have to account for the reduced moment > > of inertia of the stiffener section at the hole location in your buckling, > > inter-stiffener strength and stuffener tripping calculations. > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > On September 7, 2017 6:51:03 AM PDT, Steve McQueen via > > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > >All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners (L). > > > > > > > >In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion of > > > >these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original > > > >build welded up/filled).? However, I am finding it would be nice if I > > > >could drill a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior parts. > > > >I believe I am looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single > > > >stiffener web. > > > > > > > >Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result from > > > >a few small holes isn't straight forward.? I guess I am looking for > > > >some feedback from those who understand the web function of an L > > > >stiffener better than I. > > > > > > > >My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too > > > >anal. > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > >Steve > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 13:41:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 17:41:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: <613954.92130.bm@smtp204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <613954.92130.bm@smtp204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1491813633.4849543.1504806081097@mail.yahoo.com> me alsoHank On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 11:37:27 AM MDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Reaching me. Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/7/17 10:08 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question Doesn't look like my posts are coming through. Anybody seeing them?Rick? On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, I have some. I am planning on using them for the light weight stuff.? The holes I was contemplating were to help hold a little more weight than those devices might. I was hoping I was done with? all the welding but maybe not. Thanks, Steve ---- Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Steve, > > If you go to a hardware store you might find some little aluminum security > devices for locking sliding doors. I'm sure TrueValue has better (wink wink > for Scott) but at Home Depot I found some that fit the K250 stiffener > flanges perfectly. They clamp on with a set screw, and give you a tab you > can drill for attaching things. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Sean, thanks. I was hoping you would respond : )? I did have a clamping > > approach in mind that I will revisit. > > Thanks, > > Steve > > > > ---- "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > The minimum moment of inertia of the combined section of the stiffener > > plus an effective length of the pressure boundary shell may be specified by > > design, but in any case is to be calculated in consideration of the minimum > > at the locations where any holes exist. Holes in the flange are far more > > detrimental than holes in the web, with the mininum impact hole being a > > hole which is coincident with the neutral axis across the combined section. > > (i.e. holes drilled in the center of the web of an I-beam have the least > > impact). > > > > > > Better than drilling holes would be to simply clamp to stiffener rings, > > or weld on brackets or studs such that no material is removed from the > > stiffener section. Otherwise you do have to account for the reduced moment > > of inertia of the stiffener section at the hole location in your buckling, > > inter-stiffener strength and stuffener tripping calculations. > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > On September 7, 2017 6:51:03 AM PDT, Steve McQueen via > > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > >All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners (L). > > > > > > > >In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion of > > > >these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original > > > >build welded up/filled).? However, I am finding it would be nice if I > > > >could drill a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior parts. > > > >I believe I am looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single > > > >stiffener web. > > > > > > > >Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result from > > > >a few small holes isn't straight forward.? I guess I am looking for > > > >some feedback from those who understand the web function of an L > > > >stiffener better than I. > > > > > > > >My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too > > > >anal. > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > >Steve > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 13:45:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2017 17:45:19 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: <613954.92130.bm@smtp204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <613954.92130.bm@smtp204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Keith On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 10:38 AM k6fee via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Reaching me. > > Keith T > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: 9/7/17 10:08 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question > > Doesn't look like my posts are coming through. Anybody seeing them? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Yes, I have some. I am planning on using them for the light weight >> stuff. The holes I was contemplating were to help hold a little more >> weight than those devices might. I was hoping I was done with all the >> welding but maybe not. >> >> Thanks, >> Steve >> >> ---- Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > Steve, >> > >> > If you go to a hardware store you might find some little aluminum >> security >> > devices for locking sliding doors. I'm sure TrueValue has better (wink >> wink >> > for Scott) but at Home Depot I found some that fit the K250 stiffener >> > flanges perfectly. They clamp on with a set screw, and give you a tab >> you >> > can drill for attaching things. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Alec >> > >> > On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Steve McQueen via >> Personal_Submersibles < >> > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> > > Sean, thanks. I was hoping you would respond : ) I did have a >> clamping >> > > approach in mind that I will revisit. >> > > Thanks, >> > > Steve >> > > >> > > ---- "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < >> > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > > > The minimum moment of inertia of the combined section of the >> stiffener >> > > plus an effective length of the pressure boundary shell may be >> specified by >> > > design, but in any case is to be calculated in consideration of the >> minimum >> > > at the locations where any holes exist. Holes in the flange are far >> more >> > > detrimental than holes in the web, with the mininum impact hole being >> a >> > > hole which is coincident with the neutral axis across the combined >> section. >> > > (i.e. holes drilled in the center of the web of an I-beam have the >> least >> > > impact). >> > > > >> > > > Better than drilling holes would be to simply clamp to stiffener >> rings, >> > > or weld on brackets or studs such that no material is removed from the >> > > stiffener section. Otherwise you do have to account for the reduced >> moment >> > > of inertia of the stiffener section at the hole location in your >> buckling, >> > > inter-stiffener strength and stuffener tripping calculations. >> > > > >> > > > Sean >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On September 7, 2017 6:51:03 AM PDT, Steve McQueen via >> > > Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > > >All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners >> (L). >> > > > > >> > > > >In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion >> of >> > > > >these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the >> original >> > > > >build welded up/filled). However, I am finding it would be nice >> if I >> > > > >could drill a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior >> parts. >> > > > >I believe I am looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single >> > > > >stiffener web. >> > > > > >> > > > >Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result >> from >> > > > >a few small holes isn't straight forward. I guess I am looking for >> > > > >some feedback from those who understand the web function of an L >> > > > >stiffener better than I. >> > > > > >> > > > >My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too >> > > > >anal. >> > > > > >> > > > >Thanks, >> > > > >Steve >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >> > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 14:04:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 14:04:06 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: <1491813633.4849543.1504806081097@mail.yahoo.com> References: <613954.92130.bm@smtp204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1491813633.4849543.1504806081097@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47E4BFE6-14FA-45DB-857B-5E54849B4852@snyderemail.com> Ping...ping...ping. Yup > On Sep 7, 2017, at 1:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > me also > Hank > > On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 11:37:27 AM MDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Reaching me. > > Keith T > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 9/7/17 10:08 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question > > Doesn't look like my posts are coming through. Anybody seeing them? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Yes, I have some. I am planning on using them for the light weight stuff. The holes I was contemplating were to help hold a little more weight than those devices might. I was hoping I was done with all the welding but maybe not. > > Thanks, > Steve > > ---- Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Steve, > > > > If you go to a hardware store you might find some little aluminum security > > devices for locking sliding doors. I'm sure TrueValue has better (wink wink > > for Scott) but at Home Depot I found some that fit the K250 stiffener > > flanges perfectly. They clamp on with a set screw, and give you a tab you > > can drill for attaching things. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > Sean, thanks. I was hoping you would respond : ) I did have a clamping > > > approach in mind that I will revisit. > > > Thanks, > > > Steve > > > > > > ---- "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < > > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > The minimum moment of inertia of the combined section of the stiffener > > > plus an effective length of the pressure boundary shell may be specified by > > > design, but in any case is to be calculated in consideration of the minimum > > > at the locations where any holes exist. Holes in the flange are far more > > > detrimental than holes in the web, with the mininum impact hole being a > > > hole which is coincident with the neutral axis across the combined section. > > > (i.e. holes drilled in the center of the web of an I-beam have the least > > > impact). > > > > > > > > Better than drilling holes would be to simply clamp to stiffener rings, > > > or weld on brackets or studs such that no material is removed from the > > > stiffener section. Otherwise you do have to account for the reduced moment > > > of inertia of the stiffener section at the hole location in your buckling, > > > inter-stiffener strength and stuffener tripping calculations. > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > On September 7, 2017 6:51:03 AM PDT, Steve McQueen via > > > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > >All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners (L). > > > > > > > > > >In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion of > > > > >these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original > > > > >build welded up/filled). However, I am finding it would be nice if I > > > > >could drill a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior parts. > > > > >I believe I am looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single > > > > >stiffener web. > > > > > > > > > >Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result from > > > > >a few small holes isn't straight forward. I guess I am looking for > > > > >some feedback from those who understand the web function of an L > > > > >stiffener better than I. > > > > > > > > > >My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too > > > > >anal. > > > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > >Steve > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 14:42:49 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2017 18:42:49 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: <47E4BFE6-14FA-45DB-857B-5E54849B4852@snyderemail.com> References: <613954.92130.bm@smtp204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1491813633.4849543.1504806081097@mail.yahoo.com> <47E4BFE6-14FA-45DB-857B-5E54849B4852@snyderemail.com> Message-ID: Thanks guys On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 11:04 AM Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Ping...ping...ping. > Yup > > On Sep 7, 2017, at 1:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > me also > Hank > > On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 11:37:27 AM MDT, k6fee via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Reaching me. > > Keith T > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: 9/7/17 10:08 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question > > Doesn't look like my posts are coming through. Anybody seeing them? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Yes, I have some. I am planning on using them for the light weight stuff. > The holes I was contemplating were to help hold a little more weight than > those devices might. I was hoping I was done with all the welding but > maybe not. > > Thanks, > Steve > > ---- Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Steve, > > > > If you go to a hardware store you might find some little aluminum > security > > devices for locking sliding doors. I'm sure TrueValue has better (wink > wink > > for Scott) but at Home Depot I found some that fit the K250 stiffener > > flanges perfectly. They clamp on with a set screw, and give you a tab you > > can drill for attaching things. > > > > Best, > > > > Alec > > > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > Sean, thanks. I was hoping you would respond : ) I did have a clamping > > > approach in mind that I will revisit. > > > Thanks, > > > Steve > > > > > > ---- "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < > > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > The minimum moment of inertia of the combined section of the > stiffener > > > plus an effective length of the pressure boundary shell may be > specified by > > > design, but in any case is to be calculated in consideration of the > minimum > > > at the locations where any holes exist. Holes in the flange are far > more > > > detrimental than holes in the web, with the mininum impact hole being a > > > hole which is coincident with the neutral axis across the combined > section. > > > (i.e. holes drilled in the center of the web of an I-beam have the > least > > > impact). > > > > > > > > Better than drilling holes would be to simply clamp to stiffener > rings, > > > or weld on brackets or studs such that no material is removed from the > > > stiffener section. Otherwise you do have to account for the reduced > moment > > > of inertia of the stiffener section at the hole location in your > buckling, > > > inter-stiffener strength and stuffener tripping calculations. > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > On September 7, 2017 6:51:03 AM PDT, Steve McQueen via > > > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > >All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners > (L). > > > > > > > > > >In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion > of > > > > >these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original > > > > >build welded up/filled). However, I am finding it would be nice if > I > > > > >could drill a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior > parts. > > > > >I believe I am looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single > > > > >stiffener web. > > > > > > > > > >Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result > from > > > > >a few small holes isn't straight forward. I guess I am looking for > > > > >some feedback from those who understand the web function of an L > > > > >stiffener better than I. > > > > > > > > > >My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too > > > > >anal. > > > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > >Steve > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 14:40:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 11:40:12 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External K250 stiffeners? Message-ID: <20657955.9733.1504809612562@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi keeping the K250 stiffen questions momentum going. I'm restore-modding a early K250 (more like the last of VAST MK3s sold as a K250 after VAST and Kittredge parted ways). One change I'm considering fitting external stiffeners to replace the internal stiffing/ballast tank structure. Also, if I was building from scratch I would be making the same consideration. Anybody else thinking about this or have thoughts about this? Thanks, Ian. From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 15:10:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 15:10:00 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External K250 stiffeners? In-Reply-To: <20657955.9733.1504809612562@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20170907191000.8LJ2E.151758.root@cdptpa-web06> I would definitely put the stiffening rings on the outside if I was building from scratch. I am trying to maximize the interior space of my K-250 as I build out the internals and if I could change that it would be significant. Thanks, Steve ---- irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi > > keeping the K250 stiffen questions momentum going. > > I'm restore-modding a early K250 (more like the last of VAST MK3s sold as a K250 after VAST and Kittredge parted ways). One change I'm considering fitting external stiffeners to replace the internal stiffing/ballast tank structure. > > Also, if I was building from scratch I would be making the same consideration. > > Anybody else thinking about this or have thoughts about this? > > Thanks, > Ian. > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 15:17:44 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 07:17:44 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: References: <20170907163144.88KHQ.149521.root@cdptpa-web06> Message-ID: Rick, I got this one but haven't seen any others for a while! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 8/09/2017, at 5:08 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't look like my posts are coming through. Anybody seeing them? > Rick > >> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Yes, I have some. I am planning on using them for the light weight stuff. The holes I was contemplating were to help hold a little more weight than those devices might. I was hoping I was done with all the welding but maybe not. >> >> Thanks, >> Steve >> >> ---- Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > Steve, >> > >> > If you go to a hardware store you might find some little aluminum security >> > devices for locking sliding doors. I'm sure TrueValue has better (wink wink >> > for Scott) but at Home Depot I found some that fit the K250 stiffener >> > flanges perfectly. They clamp on with a set screw, and give you a tab you >> > can drill for attaching things. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Alec >> > >> > On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < >> > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> > > Sean, thanks. I was hoping you would respond : ) I did have a clamping >> > > approach in mind that I will revisit. >> > > Thanks, >> > > Steve >> > > >> > > ---- "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < >> > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > > > The minimum moment of inertia of the combined section of the stiffener >> > > plus an effective length of the pressure boundary shell may be specified by >> > > design, but in any case is to be calculated in consideration of the minimum >> > > at the locations where any holes exist. Holes in the flange are far more >> > > detrimental than holes in the web, with the mininum impact hole being a >> > > hole which is coincident with the neutral axis across the combined section. >> > > (i.e. holes drilled in the center of the web of an I-beam have the least >> > > impact). >> > > > >> > > > Better than drilling holes would be to simply clamp to stiffener rings, >> > > or weld on brackets or studs such that no material is removed from the >> > > stiffener section. Otherwise you do have to account for the reduced moment >> > > of inertia of the stiffener section at the hole location in your buckling, >> > > inter-stiffener strength and stuffener tripping calculations. >> > > > >> > > > Sean >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On September 7, 2017 6:51:03 AM PDT, Steve McQueen via >> > > Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > > >All, as most probably know a K-250 has internal angle stiffeners (L). >> > > > > >> > > > >In my rebuild I have avoided drilling any holes in the web portion of >> > > > >these stiffeners (actually had some existing holes from the original >> > > > >build welded up/filled). However, I am finding it would be nice if I >> > > > >could drill a few small (1/4") holes to help mount some interior parts. >> > > > >I believe I am looking at 1 to 3 of these holes max. in any single >> > > > >stiffener web. >> > > > > >> > > > >Calculating any reduction in functional strength that might result from >> > > > >a few small holes isn't straight forward. I guess I am looking for >> > > > >some feedback from those who understand the web function of an L >> > > > >stiffener better than I. >> > > > > >> > > > >My guess is this wouldn't be a significant issue and I an being too >> > > > >anal. >> > > > > >> > > > >Thanks, >> > > > >Steve >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >> > > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > > > >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > > > >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 15:47:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 15:47:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question Message-ID: <001d01d32812$197867c0$4c693740$@gmail.com> I use medical pole clamps. I scored a box of them on eBay really cheap and I've used them to mount all sorts of things. They're usually pretty pricey, but I got a deal. It's what I do. Like the two $8,000 per unit Scubaphones that I bought for $450.00 total. Ha! I drill or mill them for different purposes and they can hold a lot of weight. Replace the thumb screw bolt with a regular bolt. Google "Medical pole clamp" for all sorts of examples. Also on eBay if you're not in a hurry and wait for a good price. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 16:09:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 20:09:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External K250 stiffeners? In-Reply-To: <20170907191000.8LJ2E.151758.root@cdptpa-web06> References: <20657955.9733.1504809612562@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20170907191000.8LJ2E.151758.root@cdptpa-web06> Message-ID: <915505523.4960176.1504814944054@mail.yahoo.com> Hmmm, I am not sure if I would do external stiffeners if building from scratch. ? External stiffeners require full penetration welds all the way around. ?If your building from scratch, you would simply increase the diameter to achieve the space requirement. ?External stiffeners on a sub means you need cowling. ?Gamma has two rings inside that are solid 1 inch thick and they are not in the way at all but the hull is 1\2 inch and 41 inch ID. ?That 41 inch ID is the key.Hank On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 1:10:18 PM MDT, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would definitely put the stiffening rings on the outside if I was building from scratch.? I am trying to maximize the interior space of my K-250 as I build out the internals and if I could change that it would be significant. Thanks, Steve ---- irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi > > keeping the K250 stiffen questions momentum going. > > I'm restore-modding a early K250 (more like the last of VAST MK3s sold as a K250 after VAST and Kittredge parted ways).? One change I'm considering fitting external stiffeners to replace the internal stiffing/ballast tank structure. > > Also, if I was building from scratch I would be making the same consideration. > > Anybody else thinking about this or have thoughts about this? > > Thanks, >? Ian. > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 17:18:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 21:18:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic domes In-Reply-To: References: <28614847.10882.1504672684940@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <774552512.4941910.1504819106197@mail.yahoo.com> As Mark Twain once said "rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated!".?I still fabricate acrylic (including domes) but for liability reasons they are not sold with the implication that they are suitable for any specific application. Domes intended to be used on a manned submersible should be tested to meet applicable standards (such as specified by the American Bureau of Shipping) by the end user to determine suitability. Thanks, Greg From: roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions in usa who make then? 2017-09-06 6:38 GMT+02:00 irox via Personal_Submersibles : Hi Roberto,?Philippe, I purchased one of Emile's domes from here: https://www.airesearch.nl/ products/ Very happy to get it, but full disclosure, I've not actually fitted it or dive with it on my K250 restoration (oh-my-god-why-didn't-i-build- one-from-scratch) project. Cheers,? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sep 5, 2017 9:04 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions Were i can contact Emile for the acrylic? thank`s 2017-09-06 3:54 GMT+02:00 Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles : Hi Philippe and congrats on the undertaking! I had a K250 for about 12 years, so here are my two cents.? 1) Precisely because they are in the cabin, I would recommend AGM batteries for safety. Of course true that Kittredge used traditional lead-acid for years without incident, but since there is something safer these days, it seems logical to make use of that.? 2) On my boat I added saddle tanks and they worked well, but as a complement to the standard ones. You can see pictures here:?http://www.psubs.org/pro jects/1234567810/snoopyin2012/ If my saddle tanks had been the only tanks, they would have needed to be larger, but that can also create some complications related to longitudinal stability, and the side thrusters don't make it any easier. In short yes it should be possible, and as an example you might look up the K250 called "Great White" (although I have only seen photos of it which don't show all the details of the MBTs.) However, the standard tanks should not be too hard to make, they are a good shape to lay fiberglass because there are no sharp edges, which are an invitation to forming bubbles as lay the cloth. I'm really bad at fiberglass work myself, but the standard MBTs are a good first project. ? 3) For the acrylic my advice is the opposite - I would not even try that myself and would go to the experts. There are two here, Greg and Emile. Greg is without a fabrication facility at the moment, so I that leaves Emile. 4) There are indeed a couple of K250s up on the great lakes. Perhaps someone will speak up... Best, Alec On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 8:56 PM, Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the pressure hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the batteries is charging. (h2)? -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT it will be great. -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in submarine dome forming. -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. tanks Philippe? phelop at gmail.com ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 18:37:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 10:37:07 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic domes In-Reply-To: <774552512.4941910.1504819106197@mail.yahoo.com> References: <28614847.10882.1504672684940@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <774552512.4941910.1504819106197@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Greg, so you sell really thick fish bowls! Are you pressing them or blowing them? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 8/09/2017, at 9:18 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > As Mark Twain once said "rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated!". > I still fabricate acrylic (including domes) but for liability reasons they are not sold with the implication that they are suitable for any specific application. Domes intended to be used on a manned submersible should be tested to meet applicable standards (such as specified by the American Bureau of Shipping) by the end user to determine suitability. > > Thanks, > > Greg > > > > > From: roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 11:03 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions > > in usa who make then? > > 2017-09-06 6:38 GMT+02:00 irox via Personal_Submersibles : > Hi Roberto, Philippe, > > I purchased one of Emile's domes from here: > https://www.airesearch.nl/ products/ > > Very happy to get it, but full disclosure, I've not actually fitted it or dive with it on my K250 restoration (oh-my-god-why-didn't-i-build- one-from-scratch) project. > > Cheers, > Ian. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sep 5, 2017 9:04 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions > > Were i can contact Emile for the acrylic? thank`s > > 2017-09-06 3:54 GMT+02:00 Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles : > Hi Philippe and congrats on the undertaking! I had a K250 for about 12 years, so here are my two cents. > > 1) Precisely because they are in the cabin, I would recommend AGM batteries for safety. Of course true that Kittredge used traditional lead-acid for years without incident, but since there is something safer these days, it seems logical to make use of that. > > 2) On my boat I added saddle tanks and they worked well, but as a complement to the standard ones. You can see pictures here: http://www.psubs.org/pro jects/1234567810/snoopyin2012/ > > If my saddle tanks had been the only tanks, they would have needed to be larger, but that can also create some complications related to longitudinal stability, and the side thrusters don't make it any easier. In short yes it should be possible, and as an example you might look up the K250 called "Great White" (although I have only seen photos of it which don't show all the details of the MBTs.) However, the standard tanks should not be too hard to make, they are a good shape to lay fiberglass because there are no sharp edges, which are an invitation to forming bubbles as lay the cloth. I'm really bad at fiberglass work myself, but the standard MBTs are a good first project. > > 3) For the acrylic my advice is the opposite - I would not even try that myself and would go to the experts. There are two here, Greg and Emile. Greg is without a fabrication facility at the moment, so I that leaves Emile. > > 4) There are indeed a couple of K250s up on the great lakes. Perhaps someone will speak up... > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 8:56 PM, Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi All, > > I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. > > -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the pressure hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the batteries is charging. (h2)? > > -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT it will be great. > > -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in submarine dome forming. > > -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. > > tanks > > Philippe > > phelop at gmail.com > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 20:25:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 20:25:51 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic domes In-Reply-To: References: <28614847.10882.1504672684940@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <774552512.4941910.1504819106197@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Greg, can you contact me for the price of a dome ? Philippe phelop at gmail.com 2017-09-07 18:37 GMT-04:00 Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > Greg, > so you sell really thick fish bowls! > Are you pressing them or blowing them? > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 8/09/2017, at 9:18 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > As Mark Twain once said "rumors of my demise have been greatly > exaggerated!". > I still fabricate acrylic (including domes) but for liability reasons they > are not sold with the implication that they are suitable for any specific > application. Domes intended to be used on a manned submersible should be > tested to meet applicable standards (such as specified by the American > Bureau of Shipping) by the end user to determine suitability. > > Thanks, > > Greg > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 6, 2017 11:03 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions > > in usa who make then? > > 2017-09-06 6:38 GMT+02:00 irox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > > Hi Roberto, Philippe, > > I purchased one of Emile's domes from here: > https://www.airesearch.nl/ products/ > > Very happy to get it, but full disclosure, I've not actually fitted it or > dive with it on my K250 restoration (oh-my-god-why-didn't-i-build- > one-from-scratch) project. > > Cheers, > Ian. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sep 5, 2017 9:04 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k-250 building questions > > Were i can contact Emile for the acrylic? thank`s > > 2017-09-06 3:54 GMT+02:00 Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org >: > > Hi Philippe and congrats on the undertaking! I had a K250 for about 12 > years, so here are my two cents. > > 1) Precisely because they are in the cabin, I would recommend AGM > batteries for safety. Of course true that Kittredge used traditional > lead-acid for years without incident, but since there is something safer > these days, it seems logical to make use of that. > > 2) On my boat I added saddle tanks and they worked well, but as a > complement to the standard ones. You can see pictures here: http://www.psubs.org/pro > jects/1234567810/snoopyin2012/ > > > If my saddle tanks had been the only tanks, they would have needed to be > larger, but that can also create some complications related to longitudinal > stability, and the side thrusters don't make it any easier. In short yes it > should be possible, and as an example you might look up the K250 called > "Great White" (although I have only seen photos of it which don't show all > the details of the MBTs.) However, the standard tanks should not be too > hard to make, they are a good shape to lay fiberglass because there are no > sharp edges, which are an invitation to forming bubbles as lay the cloth. > I'm really bad at fiberglass work myself, but the standard MBTs are a good > first project. > > 3) For the acrylic my advice is the opposite - I would not even try that > myself and would go to the experts. There are two here, Greg and Emile. > Greg is without a fabrication facility at the moment, so I that leaves > Emile. > > 4) There are indeed a couple of K250s up on the great lakes. Perhaps > someone will speak up... > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 8:56 PM, Philippe Robert via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I undertook the construction of a k-250 submarine. I have most of the > metal components to make the pressure hull. I have some questions about > batteries, MBT and acrylics dome. > > -Is it a good idea to use deep cycle lead-acid battery inside the pressure > hull ? I read on old psubs mailing list to open the hatch when the > batteries is charging. (h2)? > > -Do you think that the MBT can be replace by steel saddle tanks ? I have > no idea how to make the original one and if I can upgrade the original MBT > it will be great. > > -I try to find someone to make my acrylic dome with some experience in > submarine dome forming. > > -I live in Quebec, Canada. So, if you know k-250 owner near New Hamphire, > Vermont or Main it will be great if I can take a look on the sub. An hour > or two, I do not want to disturb the owner. > > tanks > > Philippe > > phelop at gmail.com > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 21:24:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 01:24:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light References: <24511395.5104328.1504833863164.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <24511395.5104328.1504833863164@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I am conducting an experiment with LED lights. ?I have ordered two car LED headlight lamps. ?They are 24,000 lumen each. ?I can fit the lamps inside my full ocean depth housings from eBay ?(12,000m) ?I am wondering why nobody has tried these bulbs? ? They are compact and super bright.I have mounted the lamps on Gamma with temporary halogen car headlight bulbs. ?I will swap the bulbs out when the new ones arrive. ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 7 22:30:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 14:30:42 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light In-Reply-To: <24511395.5104328.1504833863164@mail.yahoo.com> References: <24511395.5104328.1504833863164.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <24511395.5104328.1504833863164@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32020E8A-D593-4E78-9A0C-0EA516EFAEF6@yahoo.com> Hank, you sure you got the Watts right? A ball park figure is 100 lumens per Watt, so that would mean a 240W lamp. I think I know the type you refer to; cob on a pedestal. I believe they would rely a lot on the reflector configuration or the light would just go straight out the sides. Also car head lights are more spot lights than flood that we require. It would end up a lot larger than if you went with the type of led that Cliff, Alec & I are using. These have a built in wide angle, & I am not needing any reflector. You can use a focusing lens if you want a spot. Was googling & found this 100W round Cree led that may be an alternative for Cliff. http://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-CXA3070.pdf Alan Sent from my iPad > On 8/09/2017, at 1:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > I am conducting an experiment with LED lights. I have ordered two car LED headlight lamps. They are 24,000 lumen each. I can fit the lamps inside my full ocean depth housings from eBay (12,000m) I am wondering why nobody has tried these bulbs? They are compact and super bright. > I have mounted the lamps on Gamma with temporary halogen car headlight bulbs. I will swap the bulbs out when the new ones arrive. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 03:31:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove Message-ID: I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the lathe, with sandpaper. The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after machining. I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than folding up small bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( am being careful) Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to the groove? The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but difficult to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I have a few to do. Any suggestions thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 09:37:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 09:37:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science Message-ID: Friends, For a long time I've wished I could use my sub for something a little more productive than test and recreational dives. On land I've occasionally taken the sub to schools or science fairs and it works magic with the kids. Schools organize field trips to my garage. On dives I can't carry paying passengers because my sub is not classed, but that doesn't mean I couldn't carry instruments or shoot video, or carry a non-paying scientist. I've put together a website intended to be a matchmaker between owners of private subs and people who might have an educational or scientific use for them. The premise is simple. If someone like a teacher or scientist has a research initiative that could benefit from the use of donated submersible time, the website allows them to submit their idea for consideration by sub owners, who may pick it up and organize an expedition if they wish. Such expeditions will not have a profit motive, they are just private trips aligned with a scientific purpose. There is also a section for educational opportunities on land, such as using a sub for after-school enrichment programs at schools. I've put together an eight week program intended for middle schoolers and am in conversations with several area schools to deliver it this winter. Once I've refined it during the first cycle, my content will be shared with any of you who may wish to do likewise. It includes some basic physics and engineering, marine ecology, and marine conservation. Land-based programs like this can provide a nominal income - not anything to make a living off, but perhaps modest funding of your submarine habit or an expedition. And the main thing for me is to spread the word about marine conservation issues, even if on a tiny scale. Some notable PSUBS members have joined up and are on the web site, so we have quite a nice fleet of boats to start with. If you are interested in doing the same, just let me know please. Otherwise, I would really appreciate if you could spread awareness of this new website to contacts, link from your websites, or mention on social media as appropriate. https://www.innerspacescience.org/ Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 09:39:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 14:39:58 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used a dremmel once to repair an O ring groove that I damaged. It couldn't be put back in the lathe and running something like this around fixed it a treat. (It was only a tiny score but stopped the You could get the dremmel in and just hold it in the groove with the lathe on really slow speed. just a thought. ? On 8 September 2017 at 08:31, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the > lathe, > with sandpaper. > The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after > machining. > I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than folding > up small > bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( am > being careful) > Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to > the groove? > The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but > difficult > to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I > have a few to do. > Any suggestions thanks. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 123123123123.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 21022 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 09:48:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 15:48:31 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is great Alec, bravo I have also ties to some schools for my pedal powered project and they love it. Antoine On Friday, September 8, 2017, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Friends, > > For a long time I've wished I could use my sub for something a little more > productive than test and recreational dives. On land I've occasionally > taken the sub to schools or science fairs and it works magic with the kids. > Schools organize field trips to my garage. On dives I can't carry paying > passengers because my sub is not classed, but that doesn't mean I couldn't > carry instruments or shoot video, or carry a non-paying scientist. > > I've put together a website intended to be a matchmaker between owners of > private subs and people who might have an educational or scientific use for > them. The premise is simple. If someone like a teacher or scientist has a > research initiative that could benefit from the use of donated submersible > time, the website allows them to submit their idea for consideration by sub > owners, who may pick it up and organize an expedition if they wish. Such > expeditions will not have a profit motive, they are just private trips > aligned with a scientific purpose. > > There is also a section for educational opportunities on land, such as > using a sub for after-school enrichment programs at schools. I've put > together an eight week program intended for middle schoolers and am in > conversations with several area schools to deliver it this winter. Once > I've refined it during the first cycle, my content will be shared with any > of you who may wish to do likewise. It includes some basic physics and > engineering, marine ecology, and marine conservation. Land-based programs > like this can provide a nominal income - not anything to make a living off, > but perhaps modest funding of your submarine habit or an expedition. And > the main thing for me is to spread the word about marine conservation > issues, even if on a tiny scale. > > Some notable PSUBS members have joined up and are on the web site, so we > have quite a nice fleet of boats to start with. If you are interested in > doing the same, just let me know please. Otherwise, I would really > appreciate if you could spread awareness of this new website to contacts, > link from your websites, or mention on social media as appropriate. > > https://www.innerspacescience.org/ > > > Best, > > Alec > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 09:51:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 9:51:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20170908135104.5KYZX.54705.root@cdptpa-web09> Nice! Another motivation to finish my project. I am hoping as expeditions get created we can ping psub members for supporting crew opportunities. Thanks, Steve ---- Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Friends, > > For a long time I've wished I could use my sub for something a little more > productive than test and recreational dives. On land I've occasionally > taken the sub to schools or science fairs and it works magic with the kids. > Schools organize field trips to my garage. On dives I can't carry paying > passengers because my sub is not classed, but that doesn't mean I couldn't > carry instruments or shoot video, or carry a non-paying scientist. > > I've put together a website intended to be a matchmaker between owners of > private subs and people who might have an educational or scientific use for > them. The premise is simple. If someone like a teacher or scientist has a > research initiative that could benefit from the use of donated submersible > time, the website allows them to submit their idea for consideration by sub > owners, who may pick it up and organize an expedition if they wish. Such > expeditions will not have a profit motive, they are just private trips > aligned with a scientific purpose. > > There is also a section for educational opportunities on land, such as > using a sub for after-school enrichment programs at schools. I've put > together an eight week program intended for middle schoolers and am in > conversations with several area schools to deliver it this winter. Once > I've refined it during the first cycle, my content will be shared with any > of you who may wish to do likewise. It includes some basic physics and > engineering, marine ecology, and marine conservation. Land-based programs > like this can provide a nominal income - not anything to make a living off, > but perhaps modest funding of your submarine habit or an expedition. And > the main thing for me is to spread the word about marine conservation > issues, even if on a tiny scale. > > Some notable PSUBS members have joined up and are on the web site, so we > have quite a nice fleet of boats to start with. If you are interested in > doing the same, just let me know please. Otherwise, I would really > appreciate if you could spread awareness of this new website to contacts, > link from your websites, or mention on social media as appropriate. > > https://www.innerspacescience.org/ > > > Best, > > Alec From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 09:54:13 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 9:54:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-250 Angle Stiffener Web Question In-Reply-To: <001d01d32812$197867c0$4c693740$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170908135413.0P423.54891.root@cdptpa-web09> Another good option. Thanks, Steve ---- Brian via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I use medical pole clamps. I scored a box of them on eBay really cheap and > I've used them to mount all sorts of things. They're usually pretty pricey, > but I got a deal. It's what I do. Like the two $8,000 per unit Scubaphones > that I bought for $450.00 total. Ha! > > > > I drill or mill them for different purposes and they can hold a lot of > weight. Replace the thumb screw bolt with a regular bolt. > > > > Google "Medical pole clamp" for all sorts of examples. Also on eBay if > you're not in a hurry and wait for a good price. > > > > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 09:58:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 13:58:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1170194370.9389489.1504879137860@mail.yahoo.com> Very nice site. Congratulations.I hope there will be alot of interesents.Best wishes Juergen Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles schrieb am 8:39 Freitag, 8.September 2017: Friends, For a long time I've wished I could use my sub for something a little more productive than test and recreational dives. On land I've occasionally taken the sub to schools or science fairs and it works magic with the kids. Schools organize field trips to my garage. On dives I can't carry paying passengers because my sub is not classed, but that doesn't mean I couldn't carry instruments or shoot video, or carry a non-paying scientist.? I've put together a website intended to be a matchmaker between owners of private subs and people who might have an educational or scientific use for them. The premise is simple. If someone like a teacher or scientist has a research initiative that could benefit from the use of donated submersible time, the website allows them to submit their idea for consideration by sub owners, who may pick it up and organize an expedition if they wish. Such expeditions will not have a profit motive, they are just private trips aligned with a scientific purpose. There is also a section for educational opportunities on land, such as using a sub for after-school enrichment programs at schools. I've put together an eight week program intended for middle schoolers and am in conversations with several area schools to deliver it this winter. Once I've refined it during the first cycle, my content will be shared with any of you who may wish to do likewise. It includes some basic physics and engineering, marine ecology, and marine conservation. Land-based programs like this can provide a nominal income - not anything to make a living off, but perhaps modest funding of your submarine habit or an expedition. And the main thing for me is to spread the word about marine conservation issues, even if on a tiny scale. Some notable PSUBS members have joined up and are on the web site, so we have quite a nice fleet of boats to start with. If you are interested in doing the same, just let me know please. Otherwise, I would really appreciate if you could spread awareness of this new website to contacts, link from your websites, or mention on social media as appropriate. https://www.innerspacescience.org/ Best, Alec_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 12:32:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:32:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light In-Reply-To: <32020E8A-D593-4E78-9A0C-0EA516EFAEF6@yahoo.com> References: <24511395.5104328.1504833863164.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <24511395.5104328.1504833863164@mail.yahoo.com> <32020E8A-D593-4E78-9A0C-0EA516EFAEF6@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2114088539.5493544.1504888327379@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,No, I got it right, 48,000 lumen for the pair and there are also 96,000 Lumen per pair. ?Now thats' bright;-) ?I am not sure how they will work but for the 10 minutes it took to put bulbs in my fixtures, it is worth a try. ?I do NOT want to rely on one light source. ?Imagine you drive 4 hr to the dive location then 1 hr to get on site then you dive 380 feet to the wreck and you spot the gold and your light quits. ?At 380 feet it is dark! ? I currently have three separate light sources with separate power sources and separate switches. ?Hank On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 8:31:04 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,you sure you got the Watts right?A ball park figure is 100 lumens per Watt, so that would mean a240W lamp. ? ?I think I know the type you refer to; cob on a pedestal. I believethey would rely a lot on the reflector configuration or the lightwould just go straight out the sides. Also car head lights are morespot lights than flood that we require. It would end up a lot largerthan if you went with the type of led that Cliff, Alec & I are ?using.?These have a built in wide angle, & I am not needing any ?reflector. ?You can use a focusing lens if you want a spot.Was googling & found this 100W round Cree led that may be an alternativefor Cliff.?http://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-CXA3070.pdfAlanSent from my iPad On 8/09/2017, at 1:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am conducting an experiment with LED lights. ?I have ordered two car LED headlight lamps. ?They are 24,000 lumen each. ?I can fit the lamps inside my full ocean depth housings from eBay ?(12,000m) ?I am wondering why nobody has tried these bulbs? ? They are compact and super bright.I have mounted the lamps on Gamma with temporary halogen car headlight bulbs. ?I will swap the bulbs out when the new ones arrive. ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 14:56:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 13:56:59 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alec, I love the idea! I am in. I will send you content for your web site. Best Regards Cliff On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 8:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Friends, > > For a long time I've wished I could use my sub for something a little more > productive than test and recreational dives. On land I've occasionally > taken the sub to schools or science fairs and it works magic with the kids. > Schools organize field trips to my garage. On dives I can't carry paying > passengers because my sub is not classed, but that doesn't mean I couldn't > carry instruments or shoot video, or carry a non-paying scientist. > > I've put together a website intended to be a matchmaker between owners of > private subs and people who might have an educational or scientific use for > them. The premise is simple. If someone like a teacher or scientist has a > research initiative that could benefit from the use of donated submersible > time, the website allows them to submit their idea for consideration by sub > owners, who may pick it up and organize an expedition if they wish. Such > expeditions will not have a profit motive, they are just private trips > aligned with a scientific purpose. > > There is also a section for educational opportunities on land, such as > using a sub for after-school enrichment programs at schools. I've put > together an eight week program intended for middle schoolers and am in > conversations with several area schools to deliver it this winter. Once > I've refined it during the first cycle, my content will be shared with any > of you who may wish to do likewise. It includes some basic physics and > engineering, marine ecology, and marine conservation. Land-based programs > like this can provide a nominal income - not anything to make a living off, > but perhaps modest funding of your submarine habit or an expedition. And > the main thing for me is to spread the word about marine conservation > issues, even if on a tiny scale. > > Some notable PSUBS members have joined up and are on the web site, so we > have quite a nice fleet of boats to start with. If you are interested in > doing the same, just let me know please. Otherwise, I would really > appreciate if you could spread awareness of this new website to contacts, > link from your websites, or mention on social media as appropriate. > > https://www.innerspacescience.org/ > > > Best, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 14:58:34 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 14:58:34 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External K250 stiffeners? In-Reply-To: <20657955.9733.1504809612562@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <20657955.9733.1504809612562@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Ian, When I build another sub I will definately put the stiffeners on the outside . Yes , there is more welding involved ( they must have full penetration welds ) . But with the hull on a set of rollers you can do all the welding standing up instead of crawling around on your hands and knees in a cramped space . Dan Lance On Sep 7, 2017 2:50 PM, "irox via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Hi keeping the K250 stiffen questions momentum going. I'm restore-modding a early K250 (more like the last of VAST MK3s sold as a K250 after VAST and Kittredge parted ways). One change I'm considering fitting external stiffeners to replace the internal stiffing/ballast tank structure. Also, if I was building from scratch I would be making the same consideration. Anybody else thinking about this or have thoughts about this? Thanks, Ian. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 14:59:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 11:59:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove Message-ID: <20170908115917.F1B05960@m0117566.ppops.net> Alan, Aluminum likes high speed when turning the part, aside from just breaking the edges, you shouldn't need to use sand paper. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the lathe, with sandpaper. The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after machining. I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than folding up small bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( am being careful) Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to the groove? The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but difficult to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I have a few to do. Any suggestions thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 15:05:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 12:05:29 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science Message-ID: <20170908120529.F1B05AE9@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 16:27:31 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2017 20:27:31 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External K250 stiffeners? In-Reply-To: References: <20657955.9733.1504809612562@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hey DAN Contact me off line. Satwelder at gmail.com Thanks Rick On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 11:59 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Ian, > When I build another sub I will definately put the stiffeners on the > outside . Yes , there is more welding involved ( they must have full > penetration welds ) . But with the hull on a set of rollers you can do all > the welding standing up instead of crawling around on your hands and knees > in a cramped space . > Dan Lance > > > On Sep 7, 2017 2:50 PM, "irox via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi > > keeping the K250 stiffen questions momentum going. > > I'm restore-modding a early K250 (more like the last of VAST MK3s sold as > a K250 after VAST and Kittredge parted ways). One change I'm considering > fitting external stiffeners to replace the internal stiffing/ballast tank > structure. > > Also, if I was building from scratch I would be making the same > consideration. > > Anybody else thinking about this or have thoughts about this? > > Thanks, > Ian. > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 16:56:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 20:56:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <801468762.173305.1504904167976@mail.yahoo.com> I've also carried non paying scientists (with the Chesapeake Bay Foundation) in my sub. Even though it is not legal to charge a fee, my tax adviser said that it was not illegal to consider the time as a tax deductible donation if the institution was a university, foundation or other charitable organization. Check with a tax expert to see if you can claim a tax deduction. Greg Cottrell? From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science Alec, I love the idea!? I am in.? I will send you content for your web site. Best Regards Cliff On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 8:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Friends, For a long time I've wished I could use my sub for something a little more productive than test and recreational dives. On land I've occasionally taken the sub to schools or science fairs and it works magic with the kids. Schools organize field trips to my garage. On dives I can't carry paying passengers because my sub is not classed, but that doesn't mean I couldn't carry instruments or shoot video, or carry a non-paying scientist.? I've put together a website intended to be a matchmaker between owners of private subs and people who might have an educational or scientific use for them. The premise is simple. If someone like a teacher or scientist has a research initiative that could benefit from the use of donated submersible time, the website allows them to submit their idea for consideration by sub owners, who may pick it up and organize an expedition if they wish. Such expeditions will not have a profit motive, they are just private trips aligned with a scientific purpose. There is also a section for educational opportunities on land, such as using a sub for after-school enrichment programs at schools. I've put together an eight week program intended for middle schoolers and am in conversations with several area schools to deliver it this winter. Once I've refined it during the first cycle, my content will be shared with any of you who may wish to do likewise. It includes some basic physics and engineering, marine ecology, and marine conservation. Land-based programs like this can provide a nominal income - not anything to make a living off, but perhaps modest funding of your submarine habit or an expedition. And the main thing for me is to spread the word about marine conservation issues, even if on a tiny scale. Some notable PSUBS members have joined up and are on the web site, so we have quite a nice fleet of boats to start with. If you are interested in doing the same, just let me know please. Otherwise, I would really appreciate if you could spread awareness of this new website to contacts, link from your websites, or mention on social media as appropriate. https://www.innerspacescience. org/ Best, Alec ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 17:01:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 21:01:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] External K250 stiffeners? In-Reply-To: References: <20657955.9733.1504809612562@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <246751082.5702985.1504904471287@mail.yahoo.com> Dan,If I were welding rings in a new sub I would stand it on end and stand up inside the cylinder and weld in comfort. ?Not because it is the easies position ?for quality welds 'wink wink"Hank On Friday, September 8, 2017, 1:48:10 PM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ian,When I build another sub I will definately put the stiffeners on the outside . Yes , there is more welding involved ( they must have full penetration welds ) . But with the hull on a set of rollers you can do all the welding standing up instead of crawling around on your hands and knees in a cramped space .Dan Lance On Sep 7, 2017 2:50 PM, "irox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Hi keeping the K250 stiffen questions momentum going. I'm restore-modding a early K250 (more like the last of VAST MK3s sold as a K250 after VAST and Kittredge parted ways).? One change I'm considering fitting external stiffeners to replace the internal stiffing/ballast tank structure. Also, if I was building from scratch I would be making the same consideration. Anybody else thinking about this or have thoughts about this? Thanks, ? Ian. ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 17:09:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 09:09:40 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light In-Reply-To: <2114088539.5493544.1504888327379@mail.yahoo.com> References: <24511395.5104328.1504833863164.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <24511395.5104328.1504833863164@mail.yahoo.com> <32020E8A-D593-4E78-9A0C-0EA516EFAEF6@yahoo.com> <2114088539.5493544.1504888327379@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I agree with you on using something off the shelf that you can adapt. I bought at least 15 aluminium lights, hoping to adapt them to an underwater light. All around $10. None of them worked out for me, but if I saw anything with potential I would buy it. I am doing 4 lights at once which speeds up the process on the lathe, but it still is a lot of work. I am still puzzled at you're high lumens, as most car led lights I saw were a maximum of 100W ( 10,000 lumens) Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/09/2017, at 4:32 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > No, I got it right, 48,000 lumen for the pair and there are also 96,000 Lumen per pair. Now thats' bright;-) I am not sure how they will work but for the 10 minutes it took to put bulbs in my fixtures, it is worth a try. I do NOT want to rely on one light source. Imagine you drive 4 hr to the dive location then 1 hr to get on site then you dive 380 feet to the wreck and you spot the gold and your light quits. At 380 feet it is dark! I currently have three separate light sources with separate power sources and separate switches. > Hank > > On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 8:31:04 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > you sure you got the Watts right? > A ball park figure is 100 lumens per Watt, so that would mean a > 240W lamp. > I think I know the type you refer to; cob on a pedestal. I believe > they would rely a lot on the reflector configuration or the light > would just go straight out the sides. Also car head lights are more > spot lights than flood that we require. It would end up a lot larger > than if you went with the type of led that Cliff, Alec & I are using. > These have a built in wide angle, & I am not needing any reflector. > You can use a focusing lens if you want a spot. > Was googling & found this 100W round Cree led that may be an alternative > for Cliff. > http://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-CXA3070.pdf > Alan > Sent from my iPad > >> On 8/09/2017, at 1:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I am conducting an experiment with LED lights. I have ordered two car LED headlight lamps. They are 24,000 lumen each. I can fit the lamps inside my full ocean depth housings from eBay (12,000m) I am wondering why nobody has tried these bulbs? They are compact and super bright. >> I have mounted the lamps on Gamma with temporary halogen car headlight bulbs. I will swap the bulbs out when the new ones arrive. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 17:13:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 21:13:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light In-Reply-To: References: <24511395.5104328.1504833863164.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <24511395.5104328.1504833863164@mail.yahoo.com> <32020E8A-D593-4E78-9A0C-0EA516EFAEF6@yahoo.com> <2114088539.5493544.1504888327379@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <534414029.5703691.1504905220520@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Go on eBay and check out LED head lights. ?They go over 100,000 lumens. ?I am trying it because I have the housings already made. ? It is literally a 10 minute job per light.Hank On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:10:02 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I agree with you on using something off the shelf that you can adapt.I bought at least 15 aluminium lights, hoping to adapt them to an?underwater light. All around $10.None of them worked out for me, but if I saw anything with potential I?would buy it.?I am doing 4 lights at once which speeds up the process on the lathe,but it still is a lot of work.I am still puzzled at you're high lumens, as most car led lights I saw were?a maximum of 100W ( 10,000 lumens)Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 9/09/2017, at 4:32 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,No, I got it right, 48,000 lumen for the pair and there are also 96,000 Lumen per pair. ?Now thats' bright;-) ?I am not sure how they will work but for the 10 minutes it took to put bulbs in my fixtures, it is worth a try. ?I do NOT want to rely on one light source. ?Imagine you drive 4 hr to the dive location then 1 hr to get on site then you dive 380 feet to the wreck and you spot the gold and your light quits. ?At 380 feet it is dark! ? I currently have three separate light sources with separate power sources and separate switches. ?Hank On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 8:31:04 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,you sure you got the Watts right?A ball park figure is 100 lumens per Watt, so that would mean a240W lamp. ? ?I think I know the type you refer to; cob on a pedestal. I believethey would rely a lot on the reflector configuration or the lightwould just go straight out the sides. Also car head lights are morespot lights than flood that we require. It would end up a lot largerthan if you went with the type of led that Cliff, Alec & I are ?using.?These have a built in wide angle, & I am not needing any ?reflector. ?You can use a focusing lens if you want a spot.Was googling & found this 100W round Cree led that may be an alternativefor Cliff.?http://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-CXA3070.pdfAlanSent from my iPad On 8/09/2017, at 1:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am conducting an experiment with LED lights. ?I have ordered two car LED headlight lamps. ?They are 24,000 lumen each. ?I can fit the lamps inside my full ocean depth housings from eBay ?(12,000m) ?I am wondering why nobody has tried these bulbs? ? They are compact and super bright.I have mounted the lamps on Gamma with temporary halogen car headlight bulbs. ?I will swap the bulbs out when the new ones arrive. ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 17:21:34 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 09:21:34 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove In-Reply-To: <20170908115917.F1B05960@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20170908115917.F1B05960@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Brian & James. Unfortunately Brian I'm getting that little bit of chatter & I am needing to sand them down. Am also sanding the mating surfaces; finishing with 1200 grit & oil. I had thought of the dremel James. Trouble is that for these small grooves I would need the grinder on the dremel at the same profile as the O-ring groove. I might try bending up a peice of wire & hot glueing on sand paper. Not a lot I've found about this while Googling! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/09/2017, at 6:59 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, Aluminum likes high speed when turning the part, aside from just breaking the edges, you shouldn't need to use sand paper. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove > Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 > > I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the lathe, > with sandpaper. > The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after machining. > I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than folding up small > bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( am being careful) > Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to the groove? > The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but difficult > to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I have a few to do. > Any suggestions thanks. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 17:44:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 21:44:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light In-Reply-To: <2114088539.5493544.1504888327379@mail.yahoo.com> References: <24511395.5104328.1504833863164.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <24511395.5104328.1504833863164@mail.yahoo.com> <32020E8A-D593-4E78-9A0C-0EA516EFAEF6@yahoo.com> <2114088539.5493544.1504888327379@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <730336741.132798.1504907047258@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, Can you post a link to the ebay 12,000 m housings? Thanks, Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light Alan,No, I got it right, 48,000 lumen for the pair and there are also 96,000 Lumen per pair. ?Now thats' bright;-) ?I am not sure how they will work but for the 10 minutes it took to put bulbs in my fixtures, it is worth a try. ?I do NOT want to rely on one light source. ?Imagine you drive 4 hr to the dive location then 1 hr to get on site then you dive 380 feet to the wreck and you spot the gold and your light quits. ?At 380 feet it is dark! ? I currently have three separate light sources with separate power sources and separate switches. ?Hank On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 8:31:04 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,you sure you got the Watts right?A ball park figure is 100 lumens per Watt, so that would mean a240W lamp. ? ?I think I know the type you refer to; cob on a pedestal. I believethey would rely a lot on the reflector configuration or the lightwould just go straight out the sides. Also car head lights are morespot lights than flood that we require. It would end up a lot largerthan if you went with the type of led that Cliff, Alec & I are ?using.?These have a built in wide angle, & I am not needing any ?reflector. ?You can use a focusing lens if you want a spot.Was googling & found this 100W round Cree led that may be an alternativefor Cliff.?http://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-CXA3070.pdfAlanSent from my iPad On 8/09/2017, at 1:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am conducting an experiment with LED lights. ?I have ordered two car LED headlight lamps. ?They are 24,000 lumen each. ?I can fit the lamps inside my full ocean depth housings from eBay ?(12,000m) ?I am wondering why nobody has tried these bulbs? ? They are compact and super bright.I have mounted the lamps on Gamma with temporary halogen car headlight bulbs. ?I will swap the bulbs out when the new ones arrive. ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 17:43:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 21:43:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove In-Reply-To: References: <20170908115917.F1B05960@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <591118991.5723382.1504906995490@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I use a flat file?Hank On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:21:54 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks, Brian & James. Unfortunately Brian I'm getting that little bit of chatter & I am needing to sand them down. Am also sanding the mating surfaces; finishing with 1200 grit & oil. I had thought of the dremel James. Trouble is that for these small grooves I would need the grinder on the dremel at the same profile as the O-ring groove. I might try bending up a peice of wire & hot glueing on sand paper. Not a lot I've found about this while Googling! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/09/2017, at 6:59 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan,? Aluminum likes high speed when turning the part, aside from just breaking the edges, you shouldn't need to use sand paper. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove > Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 > > I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the lathe, > with sandpaper. > The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after machining. > I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than folding up small > bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( am being careful) > Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to the groove? > The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but difficult > to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I have a few to do. > Any suggestions thanks. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 17:45:49 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 21:45:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light In-Reply-To: <730336741.132798.1504907047258@mail.yahoo.com> References: <24511395.5104328.1504833863164.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <24511395.5104328.1504833863164@mail.yahoo.com> <32020E8A-D593-4E78-9A0C-0EA516EFAEF6@yahoo.com> <2114088539.5493544.1504888327379@mail.yahoo.com> <730336741.132798.1504907047258@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <172198565.5717106.1504907149539@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,I bought them a long time ago, I bought three.Hank On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:44:25 PM MDT, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Can you post a link to the ebay 12,000 m housings? Thanks, Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light Alan,No, I got it right, 48,000 lumen for the pair and there are also 96,000 Lumen per pair. ?Now thats' bright;-) ?I am not sure how they will work but for the 10 minutes it took to put bulbs in my fixtures, it is worth a try. ?I do NOT want to rely on one light source. ?Imagine you drive 4 hr to the dive location then 1 hr to get on site then you dive 380 feet to the wreck and you spot the gold and your light quits. ?At 380 feet it is dark! ? I currently have three separate light sources with separate power sources and separate switches. ?Hank On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 8:31:04 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,you sure you got the Watts right?A ball park figure is 100 lumens per Watt, so that would mean a240W lamp. ? ?I think I know the type you refer to; cob on a pedestal. I believethey would rely a lot on the reflector configuration or the lightwould just go straight out the sides. Also car head lights are morespot lights than flood that we require. It would end up a lot largerthan if you went with the type of led that Cliff, Alec & I are ?using.?These have a built in wide angle, & I am not needing any ?reflector. ?You can use a focusing lens if you want a spot.Was googling & found this 100W round Cree led that may be an alternativefor Cliff.?http://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-CXA3070.pdfAlanSent from my iPad On 8/09/2017, at 1:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am conducting an experiment with LED lights. ?I have ordered two car LED headlight lamps. ?They are 24,000 lumen each. ?I can fit the lamps inside my full ocean depth housings from eBay ?(12,000m) ?I am wondering why nobody has tried these bulbs? ? They are compact and super bright.I have mounted the lamps on Gamma with temporary halogen car headlight bulbs. ?I will swap the bulbs out when the new ones arrive. ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 17:50:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 09:50:20 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED light In-Reply-To: <534414029.5703691.1504905220520@mail.yahoo.com> References: <24511395.5104328.1504833863164.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <24511395.5104328.1504833863164@mail.yahoo.com> <32020E8A-D593-4E78-9A0C-0EA516EFAEF6@yahoo.com> <2114088539.5493544.1504888327379@mail.yahoo.com> <534414029.5703691.1504905220520@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F0A6C9F-4526-4E21-84A1-CE3E54437C15@yahoo.com> Hank, it's got me puzzled. It says 560W for a high / low beam combo, & then other lights are 50W for the same. The highest power I could see on deal extreme was 120W. Thought there was a legal limit to car headlight intensity! Look forward to hearing about them when you get them. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/09/2017, at 9:13 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Go on eBay and check out LED head lights. They go over 100,000 lumens. I am trying it because I have the housings already made. It is literally a 10 minute job per light. > Hank > > On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:10:02 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > I agree with you on using something off the shelf that you can adapt. > I bought at least 15 aluminium lights, hoping to adapt them to an > underwater light. All around $10. > None of them worked out for me, but if I saw anything with potential I > would buy it. > I am doing 4 lights at once which speeds up the process on the lathe, > but it still is a lot of work. > I am still puzzled at you're high lumens, as most car led lights I saw were > a maximum of 100W ( 10,000 lumens) > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 9/09/2017, at 4:32 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> No, I got it right, 48,000 lumen for the pair and there are also 96,000 Lumen per pair. Now thats' bright;-) I am not sure how they will work but for the 10 minutes it took to put bulbs in my fixtures, it is worth a try. I do NOT want to rely on one light source. Imagine you drive 4 hr to the dive location then 1 hr to get on site then you dive 380 feet to the wreck and you spot the gold and your light quits. At 380 feet it is dark! I currently have three separate light sources with separate power sources and separate switches. >> Hank >> >> On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 8:31:04 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> you sure you got the Watts right? >> A ball park figure is 100 lumens per Watt, so that would mean a >> 240W lamp. >> I think I know the type you refer to; cob on a pedestal. I believe >> they would rely a lot on the reflector configuration or the light >> would just go straight out the sides. Also car head lights are more >> spot lights than flood that we require. It would end up a lot larger >> than if you went with the type of led that Cliff, Alec & I are using. >> These have a built in wide angle, & I am not needing any reflector. >> You can use a focusing lens if you want a spot. >> Was googling & found this 100W round Cree led that may be an alternative >> for Cliff. >> http://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-CXA3070.pdf >> Alan >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 8/09/2017, at 1:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> I am conducting an experiment with LED lights. I have ordered two car LED headlight lamps. They are 24,000 lumen each. I can fit the lamps inside my full ocean depth housings from eBay (12,000m) I am wondering why nobody has tried these bulbs? They are compact and super bright. >>> I have mounted the lamps on Gamma with temporary halogen car headlight bulbs. I will swap the bulbs out when the new ones arrive. >>> Hank >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 17:48:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 21:48:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1233560109.4842257.1504907304769@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,This is one of the light fixtures, stamped 'tested to 12,000m"Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:47:03 PM MDTSubject: http://www.psubs.org/projects/common/scripts/display/bigpic.cgi/projects/1327775450/gammarestoration/1420156160.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2017-09-08 at 3.46 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7625 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 17:57:44 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 09:57:44 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove In-Reply-To: <591118991.5723382.1504906995490@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170908115917.F1B05960@m0117566.ppops.net> <591118991.5723382.1504906995490@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6DBDDA44-E16A-4D0C-90B0-4607878F1C43@yahoo.com> Thanks Hank. I couldn't get a file in to this internal groove & it may jam. About 2 & 1/2" diameter. Will try my wire idea. I get there eventually doing it by hand & folded sandpaper, but I'm considering doing another bunch after this 4 & trying to find a better way. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/09/2017, at 9:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I use a flat file > Hank > > On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:21:54 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks, Brian & James. > Unfortunately Brian I'm getting that little bit of chatter & I am > needing to sand them down. Am also sanding the mating > surfaces; finishing with 1200 grit & oil. > I had thought of the dremel James. Trouble is that for these > small grooves I would need the grinder on the dremel at the > same profile as the O-ring groove. > I might try bending up a peice of wire & hot glueing on > sand paper. > Not a lot I've found about this while Googling! > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 9/09/2017, at 6:59 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Alan, Aluminum likes high speed when turning the part, aside from just breaking the edges, you shouldn't need to use sand paper. > > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove > > Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 > > > > I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the lathe, > > with sandpaper. > > The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after machining. > > I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than folding up small > > bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( am being careful) > > Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to the groove? > > The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but difficult > > to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I have a few to do. > > Any suggestions thanks. > > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 18:19:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 22:19:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove In-Reply-To: <6DBDDA44-E16A-4D0C-90B0-4607878F1C43@yahoo.com> References: <20170908115917.F1B05960@m0117566.ppops.net> <591118991.5723382.1504906995490@mail.yahoo.com> <6DBDDA44-E16A-4D0C-90B0-4607878F1C43@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1496152784.5727315.1504909191607@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Your chatter may be caused by your tool height, try raising it a bit, also your cutter might be to sharp.Hank On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:58:04 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hank.I couldn't get a file in to this internal groove & it may jam.?About 2 & 1/2" diameter.Will try my wire idea. I get there eventually doing it by hand& folded sandpaper, but I'm considering doing another bunchafter this 4 & trying to find a better way.Alan Sent from my iPad On 9/09/2017, at 9:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I use a flat file?Hank On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:21:54 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks, Brian & James. Unfortunately Brian I'm getting that little bit of chatter & I am needing to sand them down. Am also sanding the mating surfaces; finishing with 1200 grit & oil. I had thought of the dremel James. Trouble is that for these small grooves I would need the grinder on the dremel at the same profile as the O-ring groove. I might try bending up a peice of wire & hot glueing on sand paper. Not a lot I've found about this while Googling! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/09/2017, at 6:59 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan,? Aluminum likes high speed when turning the part, aside from just breaking the edges, you shouldn't need to use sand paper. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove > Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 > > I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the lathe, > with sandpaper. > The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after machining. > I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than folding up small > bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( am being careful) > Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to the groove? > The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but difficult > to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I have a few to do. > Any suggestions thanks. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 20:16:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 12:16:10 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove In-Reply-To: <6DBDDA44-E16A-4D0C-90B0-4607878F1C43@yahoo.com> References: <20170908115917.F1B05960@m0117566.ppops.net> <591118991.5723382.1504906995490@mail.yahoo.com> <6DBDDA44-E16A-4D0C-90B0-4607878F1C43@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16fc01d32900$da251b00$8e6f5100$@gmail.com> Alan, Post a picture/photo of how you are machining and your setup and then we can solve it. Tool height is critical as is tool and work rigidity. You should not have chatter if you are machining correctly. Is it an ID groove or an OD groove? Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 9 September 2017 9:58 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove Thanks Hank. I couldn't get a file in to this internal groove & it may jam. About 2 & 1/2" diameter. Will try my wire idea. I get there eventually doing it by hand & folded sandpaper, but I'm considering doing another bunch after this 4 & trying to find a better way. Alan Sent from my iPad On 9/09/2017, at 9:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I use a flat file Hank On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:21:54 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks, Brian & James. Unfortunately Brian I'm getting that little bit of chatter & I am needing to sand them down. Am also sanding the mating surfaces; finishing with 1200 grit & oil. I had thought of the dremel James. Trouble is that for these small grooves I would need the grinder on the dremel at the same profile as the O-ring groove. I might try bending up a peice of wire & hot glueing on sand paper. Not a lot I've found about this while Googling! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/09/2017, at 6:59 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, Aluminum likes high speed when turning the part, aside from just breaking the edges, you shouldn't need to use sand paper. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove > Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 > > I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the lathe, > with sandpaper. > The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after machining. > I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than folding up small > bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( am being careful) > Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to the groove? > The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but difficult > to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I have a few to do. > Any suggestions thanks. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 20:20:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 12:20:06 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <170101d32901$666b23c0$33416b40$@gmail.com> Alec, A great idea. I would love to be part of it. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 9 September 2017 1:37 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science Friends, For a long time I've wished I could use my sub for something a little more productive than test and recreational dives. On land I've occasionally taken the sub to schools or science fairs and it works magic with the kids. Schools organize field trips to my garage. On dives I can't carry paying passengers because my sub is not classed, but that doesn't mean I couldn't carry instruments or shoot video, or carry a non-paying scientist. I've put together a website intended to be a matchmaker between owners of private subs and people who might have an educational or scientific use for them. The premise is simple. If someone like a teacher or scientist has a research initiative that could benefit from the use of donated submersible time, the website allows them to submit their idea for consideration by sub owners, who may pick it up and organize an expedition if they wish. Such expeditions will not have a profit motive, they are just private trips aligned with a scientific purpose. There is also a section for educational opportunities on land, such as using a sub for after-school enrichment programs at schools. I've put together an eight week program intended for middle schoolers and am in conversations with several area schools to deliver it this winter. Once I've refined it during the first cycle, my content will be shared with any of you who may wish to do likewise. It includes some basic physics and engineering, marine ecology, and marine conservation. Land-based programs like this can provide a nominal income - not anything to make a living off, but perhaps modest funding of your submarine habit or an expedition. And the main thing for me is to spread the word about marine conservation issues, even if on a tiny scale. Some notable PSUBS members have joined up and are on the web site, so we have quite a nice fleet of boats to start with. If you are interested in doing the same, just let me know please. Otherwise, I would really appreciate if you could spread awareness of this new website to contacts, link from your websites, or mention on social media as appropriate. https://www.innerspacescience.org/ Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 21:16:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 13:16:24 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove In-Reply-To: <16fc01d32900$da251b00$8e6f5100$@gmail.com> References: <20170908115917.F1B05960@m0117566.ppops.net> <591118991.5723382.1504906995490@mail.yahoo.com> <6DBDDA44-E16A-4D0C-90B0-4607878F1C43@yahoo.com> <16fc01d32900$da251b00$8e6f5100$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <055F1D5E-EAF4-46CA-A5F1-F5299F6F899F@yahoo.com> Thanks Hugh, it's ID groove. I have been cleaning up my OD grooves with sand paper, taking the sharp edge off the groove then finishing with 1200 grit to get a polished surface. Not sure if this is the done thing! The OD grooves had less chatter. I have been setting the tool height to my dead centre in the tail stock; but might put a centre in the chuck to double check. Will have a look at moving the tool back as far as I can in the tool holder. Any recommendations on a good anodiser? I did talk briefly to one who said I didn't necessarily need to have a hard anodising finish for a marine application. Only if it might be knocked around! I have 5 lights each in 3 sections, any idea of a ball park figure for what 15 pieces should cost me? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/09/2017, at 12:16 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Post a picture/photo of how you are machining and your setup and then we can solve it. Tool height is critical as is tool and work rigidity. > You should not have chatter if you are machining correctly. Is it an ID groove or an OD groove? Hugh > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Saturday, 9 September 2017 9:58 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove > > Thanks Hank. > I couldn't get a file in to this internal groove & it may jam. > About 2 & 1/2" diameter. > Will try my wire idea. I get there eventually doing it by hand > & folded sandpaper, but I'm considering doing another bunch > after this 4 & trying to find a better way. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 9/09/2017, at 9:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I use a flat file > Hank > > On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:21:54 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks, Brian & James. > Unfortunately Brian I'm getting that little bit of chatter & I am > needing to sand them down. Am also sanding the mating > surfaces; finishing with 1200 grit & oil. > I had thought of the dremel James. Trouble is that for these > small grooves I would need the grinder on the dremel at the > same profile as the O-ring groove. > I might try bending up a peice of wire & hot glueing on > sand paper. > Not a lot I've found about this while Googling! > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 9/09/2017, at 6:59 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Alan, Aluminum likes high speed when turning the part, aside from just breaking the edges, you shouldn't need to use sand paper. > > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove > > Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 > > > > I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the lathe, > > with sandpaper. > > The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after machining. > > I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than folding up small > > bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( am being careful) > > Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to the groove? > > The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but difficult > > to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I have a few to do. > > Any suggestions thanks. > > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 21:25:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 13:25:57 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well done Alec, great site. Give me another ??? years & I'll be on it! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/09/2017, at 1:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Friends, > > For a long time I've wished I could use my sub for something a little more productive than test and recreational dives. On land I've occasionally taken the sub to schools or science fairs and it works magic with the kids. Schools organize field trips to my garage. On dives I can't carry paying passengers because my sub is not classed, but that doesn't mean I couldn't carry instruments or shoot video, or carry a non-paying scientist. > > I've put together a website intended to be a matchmaker between owners of private subs and people who might have an educational or scientific use for them. The premise is simple. If someone like a teacher or scientist has a research initiative that could benefit from the use of donated submersible time, the website allows them to submit their idea for consideration by sub owners, who may pick it up and organize an expedition if they wish. Such expeditions will not have a profit motive, they are just private trips aligned with a scientific purpose. > > There is also a section for educational opportunities on land, such as using a sub for after-school enrichment programs at schools. I've put together an eight week program intended for middle schoolers and am in conversations with several area schools to deliver it this winter. Once I've refined it during the first cycle, my content will be shared with any of you who may wish to do likewise. It includes some basic physics and engineering, marine ecology, and marine conservation. Land-based programs like this can provide a nominal income - not anything to make a living off, but perhaps modest funding of your submarine habit or an expedition. And the main thing for me is to spread the word about marine conservation issues, even if on a tiny scale. > > Some notable PSUBS members have joined up and are on the web site, so we have quite a nice fleet of boats to start with. If you are interested in doing the same, just let me know please. Otherwise, I would really appreciate if you could spread awareness of this new website to contacts, link from your websites, or mention on social media as appropriate. > > https://www.innerspacescience.org/ > > > Best, > > Alec > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 21:37:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 21:37:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science In-Reply-To: <170101d32901$666b23c0$33416b40$@gmail.com> References: <170101d32901$666b23c0$33416b40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah, I didn't realize you were operational. D'you have some information I could put up? Take a look at what's on there about owners and subs, and if you could let me have a paragraph about yourself and another about the sub, and photos, I'll put them right up. Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, A great idea. I would love to be part of it. Regards, Hugh > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Saturday, 9 September 2017 1:37 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science > > > > Friends, > > > > For a long time I've wished I could use my sub for something a little more > productive than test and recreational dives. On land I've occasionally > taken the sub to schools or science fairs and it works magic with the kids. > Schools organize field trips to my garage. On dives I can't carry paying > passengers because my sub is not classed, but that doesn't mean I couldn't > carry instruments or shoot video, or carry a non-paying scientist. > > > > I've put together a website intended to be a matchmaker between owners of > private subs and people who might have an educational or scientific use for > them. The premise is simple. If someone like a teacher or scientist has a > research initiative that could benefit from the use of donated submersible > time, the website allows them to submit their idea for consideration by sub > owners, who may pick it up and organize an expedition if they wish. Such > expeditions will not have a profit motive, they are just private trips > aligned with a scientific purpose. > > > > There is also a section for educational opportunities on land, such as > using a sub for after-school enrichment programs at schools. I've put > together an eight week program intended for middle schoolers and am in > conversations with several area schools to deliver it this winter. Once > I've refined it during the first cycle, my content will be shared with any > of you who may wish to do likewise. It includes some basic physics and > engineering, marine ecology, and marine conservation. Land-based programs > like this can provide a nominal income - not anything to make a living off, > but perhaps modest funding of your submarine habit or an expedition. And > the main thing for me is to spread the word about marine conservation > issues, even if on a tiny scale. > > > > Some notable PSUBS members have joined up and are on the web site, so we > have quite a nice fleet of boats to start with. If you are interested in > doing the same, just let me know please. Otherwise, I would really > appreciate if you could spread awareness of this new website to contacts, > link from your websites, or mention on social media as appropriate. > > > > https://www.innerspacescience.org/ > > > > > > Best, > > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 21:37:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 21:37:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science In-Reply-To: References: <170101d32901$666b23c0$33416b40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, should have clarified... I meant that last email for Hugh! On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 9:37 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > Ah, I didn't realize you were operational. D'you have some information I > could put up? Take a look at what's on there about owners and subs, and if > you could let me have a paragraph about yourself and another about the sub, > and photos, I'll put them right up. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Alec, A great idea. I would love to be part of it. Regards, Hugh >> >> >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- >> bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> *Sent:* Saturday, 9 September 2017 1:37 AM >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science >> >> >> >> Friends, >> >> >> >> For a long time I've wished I could use my sub for something a little >> more productive than test and recreational dives. On land I've occasionally >> taken the sub to schools or science fairs and it works magic with the kids. >> Schools organize field trips to my garage. On dives I can't carry paying >> passengers because my sub is not classed, but that doesn't mean I couldn't >> carry instruments or shoot video, or carry a non-paying scientist. >> >> >> >> I've put together a website intended to be a matchmaker between owners of >> private subs and people who might have an educational or scientific use for >> them. The premise is simple. If someone like a teacher or scientist has a >> research initiative that could benefit from the use of donated submersible >> time, the website allows them to submit their idea for consideration by sub >> owners, who may pick it up and organize an expedition if they wish. Such >> expeditions will not have a profit motive, they are just private trips >> aligned with a scientific purpose. >> >> >> >> There is also a section for educational opportunities on land, such as >> using a sub for after-school enrichment programs at schools. I've put >> together an eight week program intended for middle schoolers and am in >> conversations with several area schools to deliver it this winter. Once >> I've refined it during the first cycle, my content will be shared with any >> of you who may wish to do likewise. It includes some basic physics and >> engineering, marine ecology, and marine conservation. Land-based programs >> like this can provide a nominal income - not anything to make a living off, >> but perhaps modest funding of your submarine habit or an expedition. And >> the main thing for me is to spread the word about marine conservation >> issues, even if on a tiny scale. >> >> >> >> Some notable PSUBS members have joined up and are on the web site, so we >> have quite a nice fleet of boats to start with. If you are interested in >> doing the same, just let me know please. Otherwise, I would really >> appreciate if you could spread awareness of this new website to contacts, >> link from your websites, or mention on social media as appropriate. >> >> >> >> https://www.innerspacescience.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> Alec >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 22:23:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:23:21 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove Message-ID: <20170908192321.F1A939BC@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 8 23:38:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 15:38:14 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove In-Reply-To: <20170908192321.F1A939BC@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20170908192321.F1A939BC@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the advice everyone. Had another look at things & the cross slide was a little bit sloppy. Tightened it up & got a much better finish. I still sanded it slightly. I cut a section out of a coat hanger, bent it & hot glued on sand paper. Worked well enough to finish the groove. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 9/09/2017, at 2:23 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, If you're just using aluminum it might be worth it to just start over. Make sure your tool is centered , try practicing on a another part you don't care about, If you change your angle of attack and run at a very high speed ( I don't think you can go too fast with aluminum), also use coolant. Your O ring groove should be perfectly smooth just using the tool. Could be the rake is not right for what you're trying to do. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove > Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 13:16:24 +1200 > > Thanks Hugh, it's ID groove. > I have been cleaning up my OD grooves with sand paper, taking the > sharp edge off the groove then finishing with 1200 grit to get a polished > surface. Not sure if this is the done thing! The OD grooves had less chatter. > I have been setting the tool height to my dead centre in the tail stock; but > might put a centre in the chuck to double check. Will have a look at moving > the tool back as far as I can in the tool holder. > Any recommendations on a good anodiser? I did talk briefly to one who said > I didn't necessarily need to have a hard anodising finish for a marine > application. Only if it might be knocked around! I have 5 lights each in 3 > sections, any idea of a ball park figure for what 15 pieces should cost me? > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 9/09/2017, at 12:16 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > Post a picture/photo of how you are machining and your setup and then we can solve it. Tool height is critical as is tool and work rigidity. > > You should not have chatter if you are machining correctly. Is it an ID groove or an OD groove? Hugh > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Saturday, 9 September 2017 9:58 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove > > > > Thanks Hank. > > I couldn't get a file in to this internal groove & it may jam. > > About 2 & 1/2" diameter. > > Will try my wire idea. I get there eventually doing it by hand > > & folded sandpaper, but I'm considering doing another bunch > > after this 4 & trying to find a better way. > > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 9/09/2017, at 9:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > I use a flat file > > Hank > > > > On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:21:54 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Thanks, Brian & James. > Unfortunately Brian I'm getting that little bit of chatter & I am > needing to sand them down. Am also sanding the mating > surfaces; finishing with 1200 grit & oil. > I had thought of the dremel James. Trouble is that for these > small grooves I would need the grinder on the dremel at the > same profile as the O-ring groove. > I might try bending up a peice of wire & hot glueing on > sand paper. > Not a lot I've found about this while Googling! > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 9/09/2017, at 6:59 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Alan, Aluminum likes high speed when turning the part, aside from just breaking the edges, you shouldn't need to use sand paper. > > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove > > Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 > > > > I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the lathe, > > with sandpaper. > > The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after machining. > > I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than folding up small > > bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( am being careful) > > Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to the groove? > > The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but difficult > > to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I have a few to do. > > Any suggestions thanks. > > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 9 00:32:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 16:32:05 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science In-Reply-To: References: <170101d32901$666b23c0$33416b40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <172b01d32924$9ab0b5f0$d01221d0$@gmail.com> Operational with the Comsub only. Must admit it needs new batteries now and a bit of a spruce up. Really looking for a cause. It costs about $1200-1500 per outing because of trucking, cartage and boat lift facilities. Also the water clarity around Auckland is pretty rubbish with all the rain. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 9 September 2017 1:37 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science Ah, I didn't realize you were operational. D'you have some information I could put up? Take a look at what's on there about owners and subs, and if you could let me have a paragraph about yourself and another about the sub, and photos, I'll put them right up. Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, A great idea. I would love to be part of it. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, 9 September 2017 1:37 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Innerspace Science Friends, For a long time I've wished I could use my sub for something a little more productive than test and recreational dives. On land I've occasionally taken the sub to schools or science fairs and it works magic with the kids. Schools organize field trips to my garage. On dives I can't carry paying passengers because my sub is not classed, but that doesn't mean I couldn't carry instruments or shoot video, or carry a non-paying scientist. I've put together a website intended to be a matchmaker between owners of private subs and people who might have an educational or scientific use for them. The premise is simple. If someone like a teacher or scientist has a research initiative that could benefit from the use of donated submersible time, the website allows them to submit their idea for consideration by sub owners, who may pick it up and organize an expedition if they wish. Such expeditions will not have a profit motive, they are just private trips aligned with a scientific purpose. There is also a section for educational opportunities on land, such as using a sub for after-school enrichment programs at schools. I've put together an eight week program intended for middle schoolers and am in conversations with several area schools to deliver it this winter. Once I've refined it during the first cycle, my content will be shared with any of you who may wish to do likewise. It includes some basic physics and engineering, marine ecology, and marine conservation. Land-based programs like this can provide a nominal income - not anything to make a living off, but perhaps modest funding of your submarine habit or an expedition. And the main thing for me is to spread the word about marine conservation issues, even if on a tiny scale. Some notable PSUBS members have joined up and are on the web site, so we have quite a nice fleet of boats to start with. If you are interested in doing the same, just let me know please. Otherwise, I would really appreciate if you could spread awareness of this new website to contacts, link from your websites, or mention on social media as appropriate. https://www.innerspacescience.org/ Best, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 16:48:34 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 20:48:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive day References: <426305996.6444312.1505076514708.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <426305996.6444312.1505076514708@mail.yahoo.com> Today I went to my favourite lake for a dive, I motored out to 100 feet depth and sank. ?The visibility was so bad, I could not see 2 feet. ?I couldn't even see my compass in front of the dome. ? I just surfaced and went home ;-( ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 17:46:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 09:46:36 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive day In-Reply-To: <426305996.6444312.1505076514708@mail.yahoo.com> References: <426305996.6444312.1505076514708.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <426305996.6444312.1505076514708@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I haven't dived much in lakes; but a couple of years ago I was scuba diving in a 90 ft deep quarry, & hit a thermocline at about 30ft. I couldn't see my hand in front of my face. I saw a dark line rise up my mask as I descended into it. Some sort of algal bloom! Can it clear up deeper down if you persevere through it? Alan Sent from my iPad > On 11/09/2017, at 8:48 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Today I went to my favourite lake for a dive, I motored out to 100 feet depth and sank. The visibility was so bad, I could not see 2 feet. I couldn't even see my compass in front of the dome. I just surfaced and went home ;-( > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 17:54:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 21:54:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive day In-Reply-To: References: <426305996.6444312.1505076514708.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <426305996.6444312.1505076514708@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <174448074.6458007.1505080493646@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,The thermal cline is at about 40 feet and I was on the bottom at 100 feet. ?It is expected ?this time of year. ?I just figured with no rain for two months it would be better. ?At least it only costs 50 dollars for a trip with a dive, sorry Hugh ;-)Hank On Sunday, September 10, 2017, 3:46:59 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I haven't dived much in lakes; but a couple of years ago I was scuba diving in a?90 ft deep quarry, & hit a thermocline at about 30ft. I couldn't see my hand in?front of my face. I saw a dark line rise up my mask as I descended into it.?Some sort of algal bloom!Can it clear up deeper down if you persevere through it?Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/09/2017, at 8:48 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Today I went to my favourite lake for a dive, I motored out to 100 feet depth and sank. ?The visibility was so bad, I could not see 2 feet. ?I couldn't even see my compass in front of the dome. ? I just surfaced and went home ;-( ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 18:06:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 15:06:36 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive day Message-ID: <24693958.8722.1505081196912@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 18:28:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 22:28:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive day In-Reply-To: <24693958.8722.1505081196912@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <24693958.8722.1505081196912@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <816862390.6459949.1505082483864@mail.yahoo.com> Ian,I dive completely alone. ?I now tow a inflatable tender with a dive flag, so it is ver visible. ?The boaters stayed very clear today. ?Before I dive, I call my wife with a preset time to call when I return to the surface. ?If I am late she initiates an emergency plan. ?I would prefer to dive with a support crew, but ?there are no interested people. ?Hank On Sunday, September 10, 2017, 4:06:50 PM MDT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv4778718134 #yiv4778718134 -- DIV {margin:0px;}#yiv4778718134 Hi Hank, thanks for the trip report. As the owner of a non-op sub I appreciate folks sharing their trip reports regardless of length. :) Are you diving with a support crew ?(surface or land) at all? If you are diving solo, are you taking any extra precautions? Thanks!? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sep 10, 2017 2:54 PM To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive day Alan,The thermal cline is at about 40 feet and I was on the bottom at 100 feet. ?It is expected ?this time of year. ?I just figured with no rain for two months it would be better. ?At least it only costs 50 dollars for a trip with a dive, sorry Hugh ;-)Hank On Sunday, September 10, 2017, 3:46:59 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I haven't dived much in lakes; but a couple of years ago I was scuba diving in a?90 ft deep quarry, & hit a thermocline at about 30ft. I couldn't see my hand in?front of my face. I saw a dark line rise up my mask as I descended into it.?Some sort of algal bloom!Can it clear up deeper down if you persevere through it?Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/09/2017, at 8:48 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Today I went to my favourite lake for a dive, I motored out to 100 feet depth and sank. ?The visibility was so bad, I could not see 2 feet. ?I couldn't even see my compass in front of the dome. ? I just surfaced and went home ;-( ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 18:56:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 00:56:26 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Message-ID: Hello all would be nice to have Stockton on this list... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there regards Antoine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 19:51:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 23:51:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1369539514.852268.1505087490107@mail.yahoo.com> Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications.? Greg Cottrell From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Hello allwould be nice to have Stockton on this list... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there regardsAntoine_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 20:33:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 20:33:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hehe, did you see the little rubber squid hanging off an acrylic bar that juts out forward next to the dome? Bait for attracting photo subjects perhaps? That's pretty funny... Alec On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hello all > would be nice to have Stockton on this list... > > https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s- > brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there > > > > regards > > Antoine > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 21:02:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 01:02:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub In-Reply-To: <1369539514.852268.1505087490107@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1369539514.852268.1505087490107@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2104054145.6524889.1505091721560@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,I thought the exact same thing.Hank On Sunday, September 10, 2017, 5:51:53 PM MDT, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications.? Greg Cottrell From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Hello allwould be nice to have Stockton on this list... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there regardsAntoine_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 21:09:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 11:09:51 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove In-Reply-To: <055F1D5E-EAF4-46CA-A5F1-F5299F6F899F@yahoo.com> References: <20170908115917.F1B05960@m0117566.ppops.net> <591118991.5723382.1504906995490@mail.yahoo.com> <6DBDDA44-E16A-4D0C-90B0-4607878F1C43@yahoo.com> <16fc01d32900$da251b00$8e6f5100$@gmail.com> <055F1D5E-EAF4-46CA-A5F1-F5299F6F899F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, In reference to your anodising - I use Collins Anodic in Melbourne, and I'd estimate about AU$150 for your 15 pieces. I reckon the places in Auckland would be pretty similar. I haven't bothered with hard anodising my caving lights and they get knocked around (and salt water immersed) and are ok. Just be careful where you are screwing other metals in (ie. cable glands) because if they scrape off the anodising, corrosion will happen. If you can be flexible on colour (black, blue, clear and gold are common) that will likely help keep the cost down. They need to put a piece of wire on each piece to hang it in the anodising bath - which leaves a mark. If you have tapped holes in your part and you can find some aluminium screws for them, the wire can go on that. The screw hole isn't then very well anodised, so ideally it's on the inside. Cheers, Steve On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 11:16 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Hugh, it's ID groove. > I have been cleaning up my OD grooves with sand paper, taking the > sharp edge off the groove then finishing with 1200 grit to get a polished > surface. Not sure if this is the done thing! The OD grooves had less > chatter. > I have been setting the tool height to my dead centre in the tail stock; > but > might put a centre in the chuck to double check. Will have a look at moving > the tool back as far as I can in the tool holder. > Any recommendations on a good anodiser? I did talk briefly to one who said > I didn't necessarily need to have a hard anodising finish for a marine > application. Only if it might be knocked around! I have 5 lights each in 3 > sections, any idea of a ball park figure for what 15 pieces should cost me? > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 9/09/2017, at 12:16 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > > Post a picture/photo of how you are machining and your setup and then we > can solve it. Tool height is critical as is tool and work rigidity. > > You should not have chatter if you are machining correctly. Is it an ID > groove or an OD groove? Hugh > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org ] *On Behalf > Of *Alan via Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Saturday, 9 September 2017 9:58 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove > > > > Thanks Hank. > > I couldn't get a file in to this internal groove & it may jam. > > About 2 & 1/2" diameter. > > Will try my wire idea. I get there eventually doing it by hand > > & folded sandpaper, but I'm considering doing another bunch > > after this 4 & trying to find a better way. > > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 9/09/2017, at 9:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > > I use a flat file > > Hank > > > > On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:21:54 PM MDT, Alan via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Thanks, Brian & James. > Unfortunately Brian I'm getting that little bit of chatter & I am > needing to sand them down. Am also sanding the mating > surfaces; finishing with 1200 grit & oil. > I had thought of the dremel James. Trouble is that for these > small grooves I would need the grinder on the dremel at the > same profile as the O-ring groove. > I might try bending up a peice of wire & hot glueing on > sand paper. > Not a lot I've found about this while Googling! > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 9/09/2017, at 6:59 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Alan, Aluminum likes high speed when turning the part, aside from just > breaking the edges, you shouldn't need to use sand paper. > > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove > > Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 > > > > I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the > lathe, > > with sandpaper. > > The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after > machining. > > I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than > folding up small > > bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( > am being careful) > > Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to > the groove? > > The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but > difficult > > to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I > have a few to do. > > Any suggestions thanks. > > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 21:18:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 20:18:04 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Message-ID: <201709110117.v8B1HciS088680@whoweb.com> Are you talking about Antipities or Cyclops 1 or Cyclops 2?-Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/10/17 8:02 PM (GMT-06:00) To: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Greg,I thought the exact same thing.Hank ??? On Sunday, September 10, 2017, 5:51:53 PM MDT, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications.? Greg Cottrell ????? From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub ? Hello allwould be nice to have Stockton on this list... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 21:19:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 21:19:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, I've been following OceanGate for a while. I've also been sending them applications for open engineering and technician positions for almost a year now. They own several subs: Suds- a K350 with steel MBT's Antipodes - Ex PC1501 with a 2nd dome mounted to the stern (an idea I really like) Cyclops 1 - The "Prototype" for Cyclops 2. Don't know the entire story about that one. Cyclops 2 - A deep diver under construction with a carbon fiber composite hull (!!!) and titanium heads A polymer composite hull sounds pretty dubious to me. I just don't see the benefit. There has never been, and never will be, such a thing as a "lightweight" submarine. And from what little materials characterization work I've done, I know that he could have built a fleet of steel subs for the price of one plastic one. On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 7:51 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: dive day (irox via Personal_Submersibles) > 2. Re: dive day (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) > 3. cyclops sub (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) > 4. Re: cyclops sub (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 15:06:36 -0700 (GMT-07:00) > From: irox via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive day > Message-ID: > <24693958.8722.1505081196912 at elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170910/fef09136/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 22:28:03 +0000 (UTC) > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > To: irox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive day > Message-ID: <816862390.6459949.1505082483864 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Ian,I dive completely alone. ?I now tow a inflatable tender with a dive > flag, so it is ver visible. ?The boaters stayed very clear today. ?Before I > dive, I call my wife with a preset time to call when I return to the > surface. ?If I am late she initiates an emergency plan. ?I would prefer to > dive with a support crew, but ?there are no interested people. ?Hank > On Sunday, September 10, 2017, 4:06:50 PM MDT, irox via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > #yiv4778718134 #yiv4778718134 -- DIV {margin:0px;}#yiv4778718134 > Hi Hank, > thanks for the trip report. As the owner of a non-op sub I appreciate > folks sharing their trip reports regardless of length. :) > Are you diving with a support crew ?(surface or land) at all? > If you are diving solo, are you taking any extra precautions? > Thanks!? Ian. > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Sep 10, 2017 2:54 PM > To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive day > > Alan,The thermal cline is at about 40 feet and I was on the bottom at 100 > feet. ?It is expected ?this time of year. ?I just figured with no rain for > two months it would be better. ?At least it only costs 50 dollars for a > trip with a dive, sorry Hugh ;-)Hank > On Sunday, September 10, 2017, 3:46:59 PM MDT, Alan via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank,I haven't dived much in lakes; but a couple of years ago I was scuba > diving in a?90 ft deep quarry, & hit a thermocline at about 30ft. I > couldn't see my hand in?front of my face. I saw a dark line rise up my mask > as I descended into it.?Some sort of algal bloom!Can it clear up deeper > down if you persevere through it?Alan > Sent from my iPad > On 11/09/2017, at 8:48 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Today I went to my favourite lake for a dive, I motored out to 100 feet > depth and sank. ?The visibility was so bad, I could not see 2 feet. ?I > couldn't even see my compass in front of the dome. ? I just surfaced and > went home ;-( ?Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170910/3b70f87d/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 00:56:26 +0200 > From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub > Message-ID: > mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hello all > would be nice to have Stockton on this list... > > https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s- > brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there > > > > regards > > Antoine > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170911/a01a5224/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 23:51:30 +0000 (UTC) > From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub > Message-ID: <1369539514.852268.1505087490107 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of > modifications.? > Greg Cottrell > > From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub > > Hello allwould be nice to have Stockton on this list... > https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s- > brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there > > regardsAntoine_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170910/920884da/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 30 > ***************************************************** > -- -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526 rdolfi7 at gmail.com rwd5301 at psu.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 21:23:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 01:23:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub In-Reply-To: <2104054145.6524889.1505091721560@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1369539514.852268.1505087490107@mail.yahoo.com> <2104054145.6524889.1505091721560@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1004521273.1007148.1505092998329@mail.yahoo.com> On second thought, I think it is built from another Perry hull owned by Pete Hoffman. He was nice enough to show it to me when I paid him a visit in Pompano Beach Florida a few years ago. Has anyone talked to Pete lately? Greg Cottrell From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Greg,I thought the exact same thing.Hank On Sunday, September 10, 2017, 5:51:53 PM MDT, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications.? Greg Cottrell From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Hello allwould be nice to have Stockton on this list... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there regardsAntoine_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 21:43:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 13:43:42 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove In-Reply-To: References: <20170908115917.F1B05960@m0117566.ppops.net> <591118991.5723382.1504906995490@mail.yahoo.com> <6DBDDA44-E16A-4D0C-90B0-4607878F1C43@yahoo.com> <16fc01d32900$da251b00$8e6f5100$@gmail.com> <055F1D5E-EAF4-46CA-A5F1-F5299F6F899F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Steve, that's good information & advice. Can you get the aluminium screws out after the anodising or do they become one with the surrounding anodising? I have long bolts running through the 3 sections pulling them all together & compressing O-rings. The bolts extend out the back to mount an attachment bracket if needed. ( as in attached photo) Do you think a stainless washer under the nuts that tighten this together would do the anodising any harm? I could look at using a thin fibre washer under the stainless washer. Other than that I could get a quote on hard anodising. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 11/09/2017, at 1:09 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > In reference to your anodising - I use Collins Anodic in Melbourne, and I'd estimate about AU$150 for your 15 pieces. I reckon the places in Auckland would be pretty similar. > > I haven't bothered with hard anodising my caving lights and they get knocked around (and salt water immersed) and are ok. Just be careful where you are screwing other metals in (ie. cable glands) because if they scrape off the anodising, corrosion will happen. > > If you can be flexible on colour (black, blue, clear and gold are common) that will likely help keep the cost down. > > They need to put a piece of wire on each piece to hang it in the anodising bath - which leaves a mark. If you have tapped holes in your part and you can find some aluminium screws for them, the wire can go on that. The screw hole isn't then very well anodised, so ideally it's on the inside. > > Cheers, > Steve > >> On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 11:16 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Thanks Hugh, it's ID groove. >> I have been cleaning up my OD grooves with sand paper, taking the >> sharp edge off the groove then finishing with 1200 grit to get a polished >> surface. Not sure if this is the done thing! The OD grooves had less chatter. >> I have been setting the tool height to my dead centre in the tail stock; but >> might put a centre in the chuck to double check. Will have a look at moving >> the tool back as far as I can in the tool holder. >> Any recommendations on a good anodiser? I did talk briefly to one who said >> I didn't necessarily need to have a hard anodising finish for a marine >> application. Only if it might be knocked around! I have 5 lights each in 3 >> sections, any idea of a ball park figure for what 15 pieces should cost me? >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 9/09/2017, at 12:16 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> >>> Post a picture/photo of how you are machining and your setup and then we can solve it. Tool height is critical as is tool and work rigidity. >>> >>> You should not have chatter if you are machining correctly. Is it an ID groove or an OD groove? Hugh >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> Sent: Saturday, 9 September 2017 9:58 AM >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks Hank. >>> >>> I couldn't get a file in to this internal groove & it may jam. >>> >>> About 2 & 1/2" diameter. >>> >>> Will try my wire idea. I get there eventually doing it by hand >>> >>> & folded sandpaper, but I'm considering doing another bunch >>> >>> after this 4 & trying to find a better way. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> >>> On 9/09/2017, at 9:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> >>> I use a flat file >>> >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:21:54 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Brian & James. >>> Unfortunately Brian I'm getting that little bit of chatter & I am >>> needing to sand them down. Am also sanding the mating >>> surfaces; finishing with 1200 grit & oil. >>> I had thought of the dremel James. Trouble is that for these >>> small grooves I would need the grinder on the dremel at the >>> same profile as the O-ring groove. >>> I might try bending up a peice of wire & hot glueing on >>> sand paper. >>> Not a lot I've found about this while Googling! >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> > On 9/09/2017, at 6:59 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> > >>> > Alan, Aluminum likes high speed when turning the part, aside from just breaking the edges, you shouldn't need to use sand paper. >>> > >>> > Brian >>> > >>> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> > >>> > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove >>> > Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 >>> > >>> > I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the lathe, >>> > with sandpaper. >>> > The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after machining. >>> > I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than folding up small >>> > bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( am being careful) >>> > Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to the groove? >>> > The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but difficult >>> > to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I have a few to do. >>> > Any suggestions thanks. >>> > Alan >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPad >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 174136 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 21:52:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 11:52:00 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove In-Reply-To: References: <20170908115917.F1B05960@m0117566.ppops.net> <591118991.5723382.1504906995490@mail.yahoo.com> <6DBDDA44-E16A-4D0C-90B0-4607878F1C43@yahoo.com> <16fc01d32900$da251b00$8e6f5100$@gmail.com> <055F1D5E-EAF4-46CA-A5F1-F5299F6F899F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, Yes I believe the screws can come out afterwards (I haven't actually tried it - but that's what my anodiser suggested last time after I pointed out the marks). I reckon the SS washers would be ok against the anodised ally but you may as well use some fibre washers if easily available. I think the hard anodising is just a thicker layer of oxide - ie. it's not much more expensive, just takes a little longer and is just a bit harder to scratch/ding. Cheers, Steve On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Steve, > that's good information & advice. > Can you get the aluminium screws out after the anodising > or do they become one with the surrounding anodising? > I have long bolts running through the 3 sections pulling > them all together & compressing O-rings. The bolts extend out > the back to mount an attachment bracket if needed. ( as in attached photo) > Do you think a stainless washer under the nuts that tighten this together > would do the anodising any harm? I could look at using a thin fibre washer > under the stainless washer. > Other than that I could get a quote on hard anodising. > Cheers Alan > [image: image1.JPG] > > Sent from my iPad > > On 11/09/2017, at 1:09 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > In reference to your anodising - I use Collins Anodic in Melbourne, and > I'd estimate about AU$150 for your 15 pieces. I reckon the places in > Auckland would be pretty similar. > > I haven't bothered with hard anodising my caving lights and they get > knocked around (and salt water immersed) and are ok. Just be careful where > you are screwing other metals in (ie. cable glands) because if they scrape > off the anodising, corrosion will happen. > > If you can be flexible on colour (black, blue, clear and gold are common) > that will likely help keep the cost down. > > They need to put a piece of wire on each piece to hang it in the anodising > bath - which leaves a mark. If you have tapped holes in your part and you > can find some aluminium screws for them, the wire can go on that. The > screw hole isn't then very well anodised, so ideally it's on the inside. > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 11:16 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Thanks Hugh, it's ID groove. >> I have been cleaning up my OD grooves with sand paper, taking the >> sharp edge off the groove then finishing with 1200 grit to get a polished >> surface. Not sure if this is the done thing! The OD grooves had less >> chatter. >> I have been setting the tool height to my dead centre in the tail stock; >> but >> might put a centre in the chuck to double check. Will have a look at >> moving >> the tool back as far as I can in the tool holder. >> Any recommendations on a good anodiser? I did talk briefly to one who said >> I didn't necessarily need to have a hard anodising finish for a marine >> application. Only if it might be knocked around! I have 5 lights each in >> 3 >> sections, any idea of a ball park figure for what 15 pieces should cost >> me? >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 9/09/2017, at 12:16 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alan, >> >> Post a picture/photo of how you are machining and your setup and then we >> can solve it. Tool height is critical as is tool and work rigidity. >> >> You should not have chatter if you are machining correctly. Is it an ID >> groove or an OD groove? Hugh >> >> >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- >> bounces at psubs.org ] *On Behalf >> Of *Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> *Sent:* Saturday, 9 September 2017 9:58 AM >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove >> >> >> >> Thanks Hank. >> >> I couldn't get a file in to this internal groove & it may jam. >> >> About 2 & 1/2" diameter. >> >> Will try my wire idea. I get there eventually doing it by hand >> >> & folded sandpaper, but I'm considering doing another bunch >> >> after this 4 & trying to find a better way. >> >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> On 9/09/2017, at 9:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alan, >> >> I use a flat file >> >> Hank >> >> >> >> On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:21:54 PM MDT, Alan via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Brian & James. >> Unfortunately Brian I'm getting that little bit of chatter & I am >> needing to sand them down. Am also sanding the mating >> surfaces; finishing with 1200 grit & oil. >> I had thought of the dremel James. Trouble is that for these >> small grooves I would need the grinder on the dremel at the >> same profile as the O-ring groove. >> I might try bending up a peice of wire & hot glueing on >> sand paper. >> Not a lot I've found about this while Googling! >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On 9/09/2017, at 6:59 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> > Alan, Aluminum likes high speed when turning the part, aside from just >> breaking the edges, you shouldn't need to use sand paper. >> > >> > Brian >> > >> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> > >> > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove >> > Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 >> > >> > I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the >> lathe, >> > with sandpaper. >> > The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after >> machining. >> > I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than >> folding up small >> > bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( >> am being careful) >> > Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to >> the groove? >> > The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, >> but difficult >> > to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I >> have a few to do. >> > Any suggestions thanks. >> > Alan >> > >> > Sent from my iPad >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 174136 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 22:21:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 02:21:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub In-Reply-To: <201709110117.v8B1HciS088680@whoweb.com> References: <201709110117.v8B1HciS088680@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <2056064133.944760.1505096464032@mail.yahoo.com> I'm talking about Cyclops 1 looking very similar to a hull that I saw at Pete's house. Not Antipodes but parts that were also from the original PC 1501. I remember the acrylic dome for a hatch cover and the full diameter domes mounted in the same type of forging that Antipodes has. Antipodes has a conning tower with viewports and a steel hatch. Greg Cottrell From: Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Are you talking about Antipities or Cyclops 1 or Cyclops 2?-Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/10/17 8:02 PM (GMT-06:00) To: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Greg,I thought the exact same thing.Hank ??? On Sunday, September 10, 2017, 5:51:53 PM MDT, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications.? Greg Cottrell ????? From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub ? Hello allwould be nice to have Stockton on this list... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 22:39:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 02:39:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2070686128.1030206.1505097545614@mail.yahoo.com> Hi River, I'm pretty sure that the sub they are calling Cyclops 1 is the "sister" hull to antipodes- extra hull parts from PC 1501.? The Cyclops 2 sounds like it is being fabricated by the same house that made the composite hull for Chris Welch's sub (composite tube with either aluminum, titanium or quartz hemispheres on the ends.) Composites are tricky. Not much is known about the number of cycles they can handle. Also stress release at the hull/ dome interface can be a huge problem. For many years, it was thought that silicone grease was the best anti-friction agent for deep sub viewports. Turns out it is actually the worst. Greg Cottrell From: River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 30 Greg, I've been following OceanGate for a while. I've also been sending them applications for open engineering and technician positions for almost a year now. They own several subs:Suds- a K350 with steel MBT's Antipodes - Ex PC1501 with a 2nd dome mounted to the stern (an idea I really like) Cyclops 1 - The "Prototype" for Cyclops 2. Don't know the entire story about that one. Cyclops 2 - A deep diver under construction with a carbon fiber composite hull (!!!) and titanium heads A polymer composite hull sounds pretty dubious to me. I just don't see the benefit. There has never been, and never will be, such a thing as a "lightweight" submarine. And from what little materials characterization work I've done, I know that he could have built a fleet of steel subs for the price of one plastic one. On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 7:51 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles at psubs. org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ? ? ? ? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-request@ psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-owner@ psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? ?1. Re: dive day (irox via Personal_Submersibles) ? ?2. Re: dive day (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ? ?3. cyclops sub (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) ? ?4. Re: cyclops sub (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 15:06:36 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: irox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? ? ? ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive day Message-ID: ? ? ? ? <24693958.8722.1505081196912@ elwamui-milano.atl.sa. earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 22:28:03 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? To: irox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive day Message-ID: <816862390.6459949. 1505082483864 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" ?Ian,I dive completely alone. ?I now tow a inflatable tender with a dive flag, so it is ver visible. ?The boaters stayed very clear today. ?Before I dive, I call my wife with a preset time to call when I return to the surface. ?If I am late she initiates an emergency plan. ?I would prefer to dive with a support crew, but ?there are no interested people. ?Hank ? ? On Sunday, September 10, 2017, 4:06:50 PM MDT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?#yiv4778718134 #yiv4778718134 -- DIV {margin:0px;}#yiv4778718134 Hi Hank, thanks for the trip report. As the owner of a non-op sub I appreciate folks sharing their trip reports regardless of length. :) Are you diving with a support crew ?(surface or land) at all? If you are diving solo, are you taking any extra precautions? Thanks!? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sep 10, 2017 2:54 PM To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive day ?Alan,The thermal cline is at about 40 feet and I was on the bottom at 100 feet. ?It is expected ?this time of year. ?I just figured with no rain for two months it would be better. ?At least it only costs 50 dollars for a trip with a dive, sorry Hugh ;-)Hank ? ? On Sunday, September 10, 2017, 3:46:59 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank,I haven't dived much in lakes; but a couple of years ago I was scuba diving in a?90 ft deep quarry, & hit a thermocline at about 30ft. I couldn't see my hand in?front of my face. I saw a dark line rise up my mask as I descended into it.?Some sort of algal bloom!Can it clear up deeper down if you persevere through it?Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/09/2017, at 8:48 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Today I went to my favourite lake for a dive, I motored out to 100 feet depth and sank. ?The visibility was so bad, I could not see 2 feet. ?I couldn't even see my compass in front of the dome. ? I just surfaced and went home ;-( ?Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ?______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 00:56:26 +0200 From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? ? ? ? Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Message-ID: ? ? ? ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hello all would be nice to have Stockton on this list... https://www.bloomberg.com/ news/features/2017-09-07/it-s- brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s- depths-this-minisub-will-take- you-there regards Antoine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 23:51:30 +0000 (UTC) From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ? ? ? ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Message-ID: <1369539514.852268. 1505087490107 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications.? Greg Cottrell ? ? ? From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles ?To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ?Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM ?Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Hello allwould be nice to have Stockton on this list... https://www.bloomberg.com/ news/features/2017-09-07/it-s- brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s- depths-this-minisub-will-take- you-there regardsAntoine________________ ______________________________ _ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 30 ****************************** *********************** -- -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526rdolfi7 at gmail.comrwd5301@psu.edu_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 22:49:37 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 14:49:37 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove In-Reply-To: References: <20170908115917.F1B05960@m0117566.ppops.net> <591118991.5723382.1504906995490@mail.yahoo.com> <6DBDDA44-E16A-4D0C-90B0-4607878F1C43@yahoo.com> <16fc01d32900$da251b00$8e6f5100$@gmail.com> <055F1D5E-EAF4-46CA-A5F1-F5299F6F899F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <788504AE-252E-4A6F-9FBF-2AD08B5297D4@yahoo.com> Thanks Steve. Enjoyed my time in Melbourne. Too many good restaurants, coffee bars & wineries! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 11/09/2017, at 1:52 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > Yes I believe the screws can come out afterwards (I haven't actually tried it - but that's what my anodiser suggested last time after I pointed out the marks).e > > I reckon the SS washers would be ok against the anodised ally but you may as well use some fibre washers if easily available. > > I think the hard anodising is just a thicker layer of oxide - ie. it's not much more expensive, just takes a little longer and is just a bit harder to scratch/ding. > > Cheers, > Steve > > > >> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Thanks Steve, >> that's good information & advice. >> Can you get the aluminium screws out after the anodising >> or do they become one with the surrounding anodising? >> I have long bolts running through the 3 sections pulling >> them all together & compressing O-rings. The bolts extend out >> the back to mount an attachment bracket if needed. ( as in attached photo) >> Do you think a stainless washer under the nuts that tighten this together >> would do the anodising any harm? I could look at using a thin fibre washer >> under the stainless washer. >> Other than that I could get a quote on hard anodising. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 11/09/2017, at 1:09 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> In reference to your anodising - I use Collins Anodic in Melbourne, and I'd estimate about AU$150 for your 15 pieces. I reckon the places in Auckland would be pretty similar. >>> >>> I haven't bothered with hard anodising my caving lights and they get knocked around (and salt water immersed) and are ok. Just be careful where you are screwing other metals in (ie. cable glands) because if they scrape off the anodising, corrosion will happen. >>> >>> If you can be flexible on colour (black, blue, clear and gold are common) that will likely help keep the cost down. >>> >>> They need to put a piece of wire on each piece to hang it in the anodising bath - which leaves a mark. If you have tapped holes in your part and you can find some aluminium screws for them, the wire can go on that. The screw hole isn't then very well anodised, so ideally it's on the inside. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve >>> >>>> On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 11:16 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Thanks Hugh, it's ID groove. >>>> I have been cleaning up my OD grooves with sand paper, taking the >>>> sharp edge off the groove then finishing with 1200 grit to get a polished >>>> surface. Not sure if this is the done thing! The OD grooves had less chatter. >>>> I have been setting the tool height to my dead centre in the tail stock; but >>>> might put a centre in the chuck to double check. Will have a look at moving >>>> the tool back as far as I can in the tool holder. >>>> Any recommendations on a good anodiser? I did talk briefly to one who said >>>> I didn't necessarily need to have a hard anodising finish for a marine >>>> application. Only if it might be knocked around! I have 5 lights each in 3 >>>> sections, any idea of a ball park figure for what 15 pieces should cost me? >>>> Cheers Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On 9/09/2017, at 12:16 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Alan, >>>>> >>>>> Post a picture/photo of how you are machining and your setup and then we can solve it. Tool height is critical as is tool and work rigidity. >>>>> >>>>> You should not have chatter if you are machining correctly. Is it an ID groove or an OD groove? Hugh >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> Sent: Saturday, 9 September 2017 9:58 AM >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Hank. >>>>> >>>>> I couldn't get a file in to this internal groove & it may jam. >>>>> >>>>> About 2 & 1/2" diameter. >>>>> >>>>> Will try my wire idea. I get there eventually doing it by hand >>>>> >>>>> & folded sandpaper, but I'm considering doing another bunch >>>>> >>>>> after this 4 & trying to find a better way. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/09/2017, at 9:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Alan, >>>>> >>>>> I use a flat file >>>>> >>>>> Hank >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, September 8, 2017, 3:21:54 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, Brian & James. >>>>> Unfortunately Brian I'm getting that little bit of chatter & I am >>>>> needing to sand them down. Am also sanding the mating >>>>> surfaces; finishing with 1200 grit & oil. >>>>> I had thought of the dremel James. Trouble is that for these >>>>> small grooves I would need the grinder on the dremel at the >>>>> same profile as the O-ring groove. >>>>> I might try bending up a peice of wire & hot glueing on >>>>> sand paper. >>>>> Not a lot I've found about this while Googling! >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> > On 9/09/2017, at 6:59 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Alan, Aluminum likes high speed when turning the part, aside from just breaking the edges, you shouldn't need to use sand paper. >>>>> > >>>>> > Brian >>>>> > >>>>> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Finishing O-ring groove >>>>> > Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 19:31:24 +1200 >>>>> > >>>>> > I have been finishing some internal O-ring grooves in aluminium on the lathe, >>>>> > with sandpaper. >>>>> > The grooves are small; 3.4mm x 2mm. There was a bit of chatter after machining. >>>>> > I am wondering if there is a better way to finish them rather than folding up small >>>>> > bits of varying grades of sand paper & sticking my hand in the work. ( am being careful) >>>>> > Maybe an abrasive paste & a bent piece of wire of a similar diameter to the groove? >>>>> > The hole diameter is 60mm & the groove is only 4mm in from the face, but difficult >>>>> > to get a straight stick with sandpaper in to it on the correct angle. I have a few to do. >>>>> > Any suggestions thanks. >>>>> > Alan >>>>> > >>>>> > Sent from my iPad >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 10 22:51:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 21:51:55 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D83CEE1-DE96-4DE7-9B28-F87542843432@snyderemail.com> Great eye! > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:33 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hehe, did you see the little rubber squid hanging off an acrylic bar that juts out forward next to the dome? Bait for attracting photo subjects perhaps? That's pretty funny... > > > Alec > >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hello all >> would be nice to have Stockton on this list... >> >> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there >> >> >> regards >> Antoine >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 04:31:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 10:31:56 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub In-Reply-To: <1369539514.852268.1505087490107@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1369539514.852268.1505087490107@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0bcd01d32ad8$6d793980$486bac80$@nl> The article says that there are just 3 deep diving subs in service today. Are the MIR 1 and 2 decommissioned or is the article wrong? Br, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 11 september 2017 1:52 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications. Greg Cottrell _____ From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Hello all would be nice to have Stockton on this list... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there regards Antoine _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 08:27:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 12:27:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub In-Reply-To: <0bcd01d32ad8$6d793980$486bac80$@nl> References: <1369539514.852268.1505087490107@mail.yahoo.com> <0bcd01d32ad8$6d793980$486bac80$@nl> Message-ID: <1559376958.1198431.1505132850776@mail.yahoo.com> As far as I know the Mir subs are still in service. The Shinkai and Alvin are two more. Also The Turtle has been upgraded to 10,000 ft with the help of Alvins former pressure hull. IFREMER is still operating Nautile so that makes at least six. From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub #yiv8194023336 #yiv8194023336 -- _filtered #yiv8194023336 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8194023336 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8194023336 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8194023336 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8194023336 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8194023336 {panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}#yiv8194023336 #yiv8194023336 p.yiv8194023336MsoNormal, #yiv8194023336 li.yiv8194023336MsoNormal, #yiv8194023336 div.yiv8194023336MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8194023336 a:link, #yiv8194023336 span.yiv8194023336MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8194023336 a:visited, #yiv8194023336 span.yiv8194023336MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8194023336 p.yiv8194023336MsoAcetate, #yiv8194023336 li.yiv8194023336MsoAcetate, #yiv8194023336 div.yiv8194023336MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv8194023336 span.yiv8194023336E-mailStijl17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8194023336 span.yiv8194023336BallontekstChar {}#yiv8194023336 .yiv8194023336MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8194023336 {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}#yiv8194023336 div.yiv8194023336WordSection1 {}#yiv8194023336 The article says that there are just 3 deep diving subs in service today.Are the MIR 1 and 2 decommissioned or is the article wrong? ?Br, Emile ?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 11 september 2017 1:52 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub ?Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications.? ?Greg Cottrell ?From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub ?Hello allwould be nice to have Stockton on this list... ?https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there ? ?regardsAntoine_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 09:15:37 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 13:15:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub In-Reply-To: <1559376958.1198431.1505132850776@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1369539514.852268.1505087490107@mail.yahoo.com> <0bcd01d32ad8$6d793980$486bac80$@nl> <1559376958.1198431.1505132850776@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <678776690.1311916.1505135737456@mail.yahoo.com> Emile, You might find this article interesting. Take a look at the photo of the Russian submersible. The Real Story Behind the Undersea Cable Caper | | | | | | | | | | | The Real Story Behind the Undersea Cable Caper Maybe you will be Surprised by Stephen Bryen When the latest Russian ocean surveillance ship, the Yantar (Amber)... | | | | Greg From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 8:29 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub As far as I know the Mir subs are still in service. The Shinkai and Alvin are two more. Also The Turtle has been upgraded to 10,000 ft with the help of Alvins former pressure hull. IFREMER is still operating Nautile so that makes at least six. From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub #yiv8248640192 -- filtered {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}#yiv8248640192 filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv8248640192 filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv8248640192 filtered {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv8248640192 filtered {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv8248640192 filtered {panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}#yiv8248640192 p.yiv8248640192MsoNormal, #yiv8248640192 li.yiv8248640192MsoNormal, #yiv8248640192 div.yiv8248640192MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8248640192 a:link, #yiv8248640192 span.yiv8248640192MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8248640192 a:visited, #yiv8248640192 span.yiv8248640192MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8248640192 p.yiv8248640192MsoAcetate, #yiv8248640192 li.yiv8248640192MsoAcetate, #yiv8248640192 div.yiv8248640192MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv8248640192 span.yiv8248640192E-mailStijl17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8248640192 span.yiv8248640192BallontekstChar {}#yiv8248640192 .yiv8248640192MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv8248640192 filtered {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}#yiv8248640192 div.yiv8248640192WordSection1 {}#yiv8248640192 The article says that there are just 3 deep diving subs in service today.Are the MIR 1 and 2 decommissioned or is the article wrong? ?Br, Emile ?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 11 september 2017 1:52 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub ?Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications.? ?Greg Cottrell ?From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub ?Hello allwould be nice to have Stockton on this list... ?https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there ? ?regardsAntoine_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 09:18:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 09:18:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub In-Reply-To: <1559376958.1198431.1505132850776@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15e7116f056-c0c-5b839@webjas-vab226.srv.aolmail.net> Mir 1 & 2 are both out of service for lack of funds. Antipodes is built from the PC1501 crew compartment. Cyclops I was done up from LULA. And all that pile of parts at Pete's house was the rest of 1501. Haven't heard from or about Pete in some time. Vance -----Original Message----- From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Sep 11, 2017 8:27 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub As far as I know the Mir subs are still in service. The Shinkai and Alvin are two more. Also The Turtle has been upgraded to 10,000 ft with the help of Alvins former pressure hull. IFREMER is still operating Nautile so that makes at least six. From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub The article says that there are just 3 deep diving subs in service today. Are the MIR 1 and 2 decommissioned or is the article wrong? Br, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 11 september 2017 1:52 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications. Greg Cottrell From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Hello all would be nice to have Stockton on this list... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there regards Antoine _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 10:21:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 09:21:42 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Message-ID: <201709111421.v8BELGYx093836@whoweb.com> The deep diving subs that are currently in service are:*Shinkai - Japan*Natile - France*Joalong - China*Alvin - USA*Pisces IV - USA*Pisces - V The Russian Mir 1 & 2 were taken out of service a year ago The upcomming DSVs are Cyclops 2 and Pisces VI Thanks,Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/11/17 8:18 AM (GMT-06:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Mir 1 & 2 are both out of service for lack of funds. Antipodes is built from the PC1501 crew compartment. Cyclops I was done up from LULA. And all that pile of parts at Pete's house was the rest of 1501. Haven't heard from or about Pete in some time. Vance -----Original Message----- From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Sep 11, 2017 8:27 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub As far as I know the Mir subs are still in service. The Shinkai and Alvin are two more. Also The Turtle has been upgraded to 10,000 ft with the help of Alvins former pressure hull. IFREMER is still operating Nautile so that makes at least six. ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 10:38:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 14:38:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Lula In-Reply-To: <15e7116f056-c0c-5b839@webjas-vab226.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1559376958.1198431.1505132850776@mail.yahoo.com> <15e7116f056-c0c-5b839@webjas-vab226.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <601543404.1352836.1505140694121@mail.yahoo.com> Nice video about Lula- LULA1000 Submersible | | | | | | | | | | | LULA1000 Submersible The LULA1000 research submersible carries a crew of 3 to a depth of 1000 meters. It?s being operated by the Rebi... | | | | From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Mir 1 & 2 are both out of service for lack of funds. Antipodes is built from the PC1501 crew compartment. Cyclops I was done up from LULA. And all that pile of parts at Pete's house was the rest of 1501. Haven't heard from or about Pete in some time.?Vance -----Original Message----- From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Sep 11, 2017 8:27 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub As far as I know the Mir subs are still in service. The Shinkai and Alvin are two more. Also The Turtle has been upgraded to 10,000 ft with the help of Alvins former pressure hull. IFREMER is still operating Nautile so that makes at least six. From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub #yiv0254475468 #yiv0254475468AOLMsgPart_1.yiv02544754682_e159c996-0977-496f-a129-069dedb8fc49 td{color:black;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 -- filtered #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody filtered #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody filtered #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody filtered #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody filtered #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody filtered #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 {panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 p.yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336MsoNormal, #yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 li.yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336MsoNormal, #yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 div.yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 a:link, #yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 span.yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 a:visited, #yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 span.yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 p.yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336MsoAcetate, #yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 li.yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336MsoAcetate, #yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 div.yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 span.yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336E-mailStijl17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 span.yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336BallontekstChar {}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 .yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody filtered #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}#yiv0254475468 .yiv0254475468aolReplacedBody #yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336 div.yiv0254475468aolmail_yiv8194023336WordSection1 {}#yiv0254475468 The article says that there are just 3 deep diving subs in service today.Are the MIR 1 and 2 decommissioned or is the article wrong? ?Br, Emile ?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 11 september 2017 1:52 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub ?Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications.? ?Greg Cottrell ?From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub ?Hello allwould be nice to have Stockton on this list... ?https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there ? ?regardsAntoine_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 11:38:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 17:38:03 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Lula In-Reply-To: <601543404.1352836.1505140694121@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1559376958.1198431.1505132850776@mail.yahoo.com> <15e7116f056-c0c-5b839@webjas-vab226.srv.aolmail.net> <601543404.1352836.1505140694121@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0c4401d32b13$f53376c0$df9a6440$@nl> Sure!! Pity that the Mirs are no longer available for science missions. Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 11 september 2017 16:38 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Lula Nice video about Lula- LULA1000 Submersible Tekstvak: LULA1000 Submersible The LULA1000 research submersible carries a crew of 3 to a depth of 1000 meters. It?s being operated by the Rebi... _____ From: via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Mir 1 & 2 are both out of service for lack of funds. Antipodes is built from the PC1501 crew compartment. Cyclops I was done up from LULA. And all that pile of parts at Pete's house was the rest of 1501. Haven't heard from or about Pete in some time. Vance -----Original Message----- From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Mon, Sep 11, 2017 8:27 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub As far as I know the Mir subs are still in service. The Shinkai and Alvin are two more. Also The Turtle has been upgraded to 10,000 ft with the help of Alvins former pressure hull. IFREMER is still operating Nautile so that makes at least six. _____ From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub The article says that there are just 3 deep diving subs in service today. Are the MIR 1 and 2 decommissioned or is the article wrong? Br, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] Namens james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 11 september 2017 1:52 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications. Greg Cottrell _____ From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub Hello all would be nice to have Stockton on this list... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there regards Antoine _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17203 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 810 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 12:09:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 16:09:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Lula In-Reply-To: <0c4401d32b13$f53376c0$df9a6440$@nl> References: <1559376958.1198431.1505132850776@mail.yahoo.com> <15e7116f056-c0c-5b839@webjas-vab226.srv.aolmail.net> <601543404.1352836.1505140694121@mail.yahoo.com> <0c4401d32b13$f53376c0$df9a6440$@nl> Message-ID: <1901721091.1449408.1505146151632@mail.yahoo.com> Sorry to hear that they took them both out instead of just downsizing to one. From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Lula #yiv8729231379 #yiv8729231379 -- _filtered #yiv8729231379 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8729231379 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8729231379 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8729231379 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8729231379 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8729231379 {panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}#yiv8729231379 #yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379MsoNormal, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379MsoNormal, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8729231379 h2 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:18.0pt;}#yiv8729231379 a:link, #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8729231379 a:visited, #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379MsoAcetate, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379MsoAcetate, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379Kop2Char {color:#4F81BD;font-weight:bold;}#yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msoacetate, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msoacetate, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msoacetate {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msonormal, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msonormal, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msonormal {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msochpdefault, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msochpdefault, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msochpdefault {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msohyperlink {}#yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336e-mailstijl17 {}#yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msonormal1, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msonormal1, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msonormal1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msoacetate1, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msoacetate1, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msoacetate1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336e-mailstijl171 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msochpdefault1, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msochpdefault1, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379E-mailStijl30 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379BallontekstChar {}#yiv8729231379 .yiv8729231379MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8729231379 {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}#yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379WordSection1 {}#yiv8729231379 Sure!! Pity that the Mirs are no longer available for science missions. ?Emile ?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 11 september 2017 16:38 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Lula ?Nice video about Lula- ?LULA1000 Submersible ? | | ? | | | | | | LULA1000 Submersible The LULA1000 research submersible carries a crew of 3 to a depth of 1000 meters. It?s being operated by the Rebi... | | | | ? ?From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub ?Mir 1 & 2 are both out of service for lack of funds. Antipodes is built from the PC1501 crew compartment. Cyclops I was done up from LULA. And all that pile of parts at Pete's house was the rest of 1501. Haven't heard from or about Pete in some time.? Vance -----Original Message----- From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Sep 11, 2017 8:27 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops subAs far as I know the Mir subs are still in service. The Shinkai and Alvin are two more. Also The Turtle has been upgraded to 10,000 ft with the help of Alvins former pressure hull. IFREMER is still operating Nautile so that makes at least six. ?From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub ?The article says that there are just 3 deep diving subs in service today.Are the MIR 1 and 2 decommissioned or is the article wrong??Br, Emile?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 11 september 2017 1:52 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub?Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications.??Greg Cottrell?From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub?Hello allwould be nice to have Stockton on this list...?https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there??regardsAntoine_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17203 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 810 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 13:24:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 12:24:40 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Lula Message-ID: <201709111724.v8BHOEJ8094684@whoweb.com> The Mirs were taken out of service mostly because of the ship. They always run in tandem just like P4&P5 as part of their rescue plan. Remember on DSVs the submarine is just one small peice of the whole dive system. They were put away in the museum in Kalengrad and mothballed to be used again, but I doubt it. Anatoli has pretty much retired and the Russian Academy of Science has no big plans for HOVs in the future. Thank you,Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/11/17 11:09 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Lula Sorry to hear that they took them both out instead of just downsizing to one. From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Lula #yiv8729231379 #yiv8729231379 -- _filtered #yiv8729231379 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8729231379 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8729231379 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8729231379 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8729231379 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8729231379 {panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} #yiv8729231379 #yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379MsoNormal, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379MsoNormal, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv8729231379 h2 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:18.0pt;} #yiv8729231379 a:link, #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv8729231379 a:visited, #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379MsoAcetate, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379MsoAcetate, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;} #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379Kop2Char {color:#4F81BD;font-weight:bold;} #yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msoacetate, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msoacetate, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msoacetate {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msonormal, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msonormal, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msonormal {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msochpdefault, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msochpdefault, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msochpdefault {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msohyperlink {} #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msohyperlinkfollowed {} #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336e-mailstijl17 {} #yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msonormal1, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msonormal1, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msonormal1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msoacetate1, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msoacetate1, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msoacetate1 {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;} #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336e-mailstijl171 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv8729231379 p.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msochpdefault1, #yiv8729231379 li.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msochpdefault1, #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379aolmailyiv8194023336msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:10.0pt;} #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379E-mailStijl30 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv8729231379 span.yiv8729231379BallontekstChar {} #yiv8729231379 .yiv8729231379MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8729231379 {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;} #yiv8729231379 div.yiv8729231379WordSection1 {} #yiv8729231379 Sure!! Pity that the Mirs are no longer available for science missions. ?Emile ?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 11 september 2017 16:38 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Lula ?Nice video about Lula- ?LULA1000 Submersible ? ? LULA1000 SubmersibleThe LULA1000 research submersible carries a crew of 3 to a depth of 1000 meters. It?s being operated by the Rebi... ? ?From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub ?Mir 1 & 2 are both out of service for lack of funds. Antipodes is built from the PC1501 crew compartment. Cyclops I was done up from LULA. And all that pile of parts at Pete's house was the rest of 1501. Haven't heard from or about Pete in some time.? Vance -----Original Message----- From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Sep 11, 2017 8:27 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops subAs far as I know the Mir subs are still in service. The Shinkai and Alvin are two more. Also The Turtle has been upgraded to 10,000 ft with the help of Alvins former pressure hull. IFREMER is still operating Nautile so that makes at least six. ?From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub ?The article says that there are just 3 deep diving subs in service today.Are the MIR 1 and 2 decommissioned or is the article wrong??Br, Emile?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 11 september 2017 1:52 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub?Not 100 % sure but looks like it might be the Perry PC 1501 with a lot of modifications.??Greg Cottrell?From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 6:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cyclops sub?Hello allwould be nice to have Stockton on this list...?https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-07/it-s-brutal-to-get-to-the-ocean-s-depths-this-minisub-will-take-you-there??regardsAntoine_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 18:32:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 22:32:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge References: <171413422.7262126.1505169136768.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <171413422.7262126.1505169136768@mail.yahoo.com> Hi allI am looking for a digital depth gauge for Gamma. ?Does anyone have suggestions? ?By the way, my depth sending unit survived the pressure test no problem.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 18:47:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 17:47:07 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Message-ID: <201709112246.v8BMkghs097578@whoweb.com> Hank,Dawyer has a digital gauhe that is programable so it can do feet in water. It was so easy, even I figured it out. I used it on Truetworthy.-Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/11/17 5:32 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Hi allI am looking for a digital depth gauge for Gamma. ?Does anyone have suggestions? ?By the way, my depth sending unit survived the pressure test no problem.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 18:50:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 22:50:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge In-Reply-To: <201709112246.v8BMkghs097578@whoweb.com> References: <201709112246.v8BMkghs097578@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <1903846770.7285468.1505170201238@mail.yahoo.com> Scott,What is the cost?hank On Monday, September 11, 2017, 4:47:30 PM MDT, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Dawyer has a digital gauhe that is programable so it can do feet in water. It was so easy, even I figured it out. I used it on Truetworthy.-Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/11/17 5:32 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Hi allI am looking for a digital depth gauge for Gamma. ?Does anyone have suggestions? ?By the way, my depth sending unit survived the pressure test no problem.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 19:05:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 18:05:15 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?digital_depth_gauge?= In-Reply-To: <1903846770.7285468.1505170201238@mail.yahoo.com> References: <201709112246.v8BMkghs097578@whoweb.com> <1903846770.7285468.1505170201238@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20170911230515.2104.qmail@server268.com> I don't remember. That was like 6 or 7 years ago. I think I remember it being under $200. -Scott > -------Original Message------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge > Sent: Sep 11 '17 17:55 > > Scott, > What is the cost? > hank > > On Monday, September 11, 2017, 4:47:30 PM MDT, Scott Waters via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, > Dawyer has a digital gauhe that is programable so it can do feet in > water. It was so easy, even I figured it out. I used it on > Truetworthy. > -Scott Waters > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > Date: 9/11/17 5:32 PM (GMT-06:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge > > Hi all > I am looking for a digital depth gauge for Gamma. Does anyone have > suggestions? By the way, my depth sending unit survived the pressure > test no problem. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 20:52:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 12:52:00 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge In-Reply-To: <1903846770.7285468.1505170201238@mail.yahoo.com> References: <201709112246.v8BMkghs097578@whoweb.com> <1903846770.7285468.1505170201238@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I think this is what I bought. https://www.amazon.com/Dwyer-Digital-Pressure-0-25-Accuracy/dp/B009P8WA2Y I went looking for mine but couldn't find it. This one is $185- but there are cheaper items with a smaller pressure range. Cliff also may have this. As Scott said, you can set the reading to feet or meters as well psi etc. Can't remember who, but someone had theirs set up with a solder sucker full of oil external to the hull & screwed in to a through hull. I guess the trick would be to find a solder sucker with a suitable thread. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 12/09/2017, at 10:50 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Scott, > What is the cost? > hank > > On Monday, September 11, 2017, 4:47:30 PM MDT, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > Dawyer has a digital gauhe that is programable so it can do feet in water. It was so easy, even I figured it out. I used it on Truetworthy. > -Scott Waters > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 9/11/17 5:32 PM (GMT-06:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge > > Hi all > I am looking for a digital depth gauge for Gamma. Does anyone have suggestions? By the way, my depth sending unit survived the pressure test no problem. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 21:41:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 18:41:22 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Message-ID: <20170911184122.34F6F6A3@m0117457.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 21:41:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 21:41:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge In-Reply-To: <171413422.7262126.1505169136768@mail.yahoo.com> References: <171413422.7262126.1505169136768.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <171413422.7262126.1505169136768@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <96266dfe-31b1-0ee9-9416-e72951b0b23e@psubs.org> SSI Technologies From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 21:47:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 18:47:02 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] controller score Message-ID: <20170911184702.34F6F6E6@m0117457.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 23:01:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 03:01:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge In-Reply-To: <201709112246.v8BMkghs097578@whoweb.com> References: <201709112246.v8BMkghs097578@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <1176790858.46130.1505185319510@mail.yahoo.com> That's a great find! Thanks, Scott Greg From: Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:49 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Hank,Dawyer has a digital gauhe that is programable so it can do feet in water. It was so easy, even I figured it out. I used it on Truetworthy.-Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/11/17 5:32 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Hi allI am looking for a digital depth gauge for Gamma. ?Does anyone have suggestions? ?By the way, my depth sending unit survived the pressure test no problem.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 11 23:51:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 21:51:25 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge In-Reply-To: raCydW5HHNnSvraD0dlI7x References: raCydW5HHNnSvraD0dlI7x Message-ID: <8d6dacf5-1357-4379-bcfd-fb6e0a57ba13@email.android.com> Find a suitable female to take along to uh... call out gauge readings. Sean On September 11, 2017 7:41:22 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Is it possible to get audible gauges ? Preferably with a female voice >! > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 12:52:00 +1200 > >Hank, > >I think this is what I bought. > >https://www.amazon.com/Dwyer-Digital-Pressure-0-25-Accuracy/dp/B009P8WA2Y > >I went looking for mine but couldn't find it. This one is $185- but >there are cheaper > >items with a smaller pressure range. > >Cliff also may have this. As Scott said, you can set the reading to >feet or meters as > >well psi etc. Can't remember who, but someone had theirs set up with a >solder > >sucker full of oil external to the hull & screwed in to a through hull. >I guess the trick > >would be to find a solder sucker with a suitable thread. > >Alan > > > >Sent from my iPad > > >On 12/09/2017, at 10:50 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Scott, > >What is the cost? > >hank > > >On Monday, September 11, 2017, 4:47:30 PM MDT, Scott Waters via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > >Hank, > >Dawyer has a digital gauhe that is programable so it can do feet in >water. It was so easy, even I figured it out. I used it on Truetworthy. > >-Scott Waters > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > >-------- Original message -------- > >From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > >Date: 9/11/17 5:32 PM (GMT-06:00) > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge > > >Hi all > >I am looking for a digital depth gauge for Gamma. Does anyone have >suggestions? By the way, my depth sending unit survived the pressure >test no problem. > >Hank > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 00:01:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 23:01:40 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Message-ID: <201709120401.v8C41Fov099843@whoweb.com> No problem. :)Glad to help-Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/11/17 10:01 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge That's a great find! Thanks, Scott Greg From: Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:49 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Hank,Dawyer has a digital gauhe that is programable so it can do feet in water. It was so easy, even I figured it out. I used it on Truetworthy.-Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/11/17 5:32 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Hi allI am looking for a digital depth gauge for Gamma. ?Does anyone have suggestions? ?By the way, my depth sending unit survived the pressure test no problem.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 00:04:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 23:04:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Message-ID: <201709120403.v8C43oX6099867@whoweb.com> You can just use a accumulator bladder (bilb style) like they for air brakes for a oil compensated bladder for the depth gauge. Be sure to use mineral oil, because oil that contains solvents tend to corrode the bladder over time.-Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/11/17 7:52 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Hank,I think this is what I bought.https://www.amazon.com/Dwyer-Digital-Pressure-0-25-Accuracy/dp/B009P8WA2YI went looking for mine but couldn't find it. This one is $185- but there are cheaperitems with a smaller pressure range.Cliff also may have this. As Scott said, you can set the reading to feet or meters aswell psi etc. Can't remember who, but someone had theirs set up with a soldersucker full of oil external to the hull & screwed in to a through hull. I guess the trickwould be to find a solder sucker with a suitable thread.Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/09/2017, at 10:50 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Scott,What is the cost?hank On Monday, September 11, 2017, 4:47:30 PM MDT, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Dawyer has a digital gauhe that is programable so it can do feet in water. It was so easy, even I figured it out. I used it on Truetworthy.-Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/11/17 5:32 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Hi allI am looking for a digital depth gauge for Gamma. ?Does anyone have suggestions? ?By the way, my depth sending unit survived the pressure test no problem.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 08:54:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 12:54:08 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] digital depth gauge Message-ID: I use one of those small hockey-puck shaped depth finders with the transducer pointed up. Works well enough for my purposes. Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 11:01:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 11:01:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] UC3 Nautilus In-Reply-To: <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/world/europe/peter-madsen-kim-wall-murder-submarine-denmark.html From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 12:20:34 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 18:20:34 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] UC3 Nautilus In-Reply-To: <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> Message-ID: BS, sorry but sound like BS 2017-09-12 17:01 GMT+02:00 Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > > https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/world/europe/peter-madsen > -kim-wall-murder-submarine-denmark.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 14:15:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 20:15:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode In-Reply-To: <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MC7hFzOTFc vbr Carsten ? From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 14:36:11 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 14:36:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode In-Reply-To: <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: Very glad to see the end of that project... but I have to give them kudos for one thing. The implosion footage was pretty good! Alec On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 2:15 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MC7hFzOTFc > > vbr Carsten > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 14:48:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 14:48:47 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode Message-ID: <000401d32bf7$c49964e0$4dcc2ea0$@gmail.com> The implosion video was sobering. They stated they had already been diving it at about the depth it imploded. Morons. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 12:16:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory B. Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 11:16:23 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Lula In-Reply-To: <0c4401d32b13$f53376c0$df9a6440$@nl> References: <1559376958.1198431.1505132850776@mail.yahoo.com> <15e7116f056-c0c-5b839@webjas-vab226.srv.aolmail.net> <601543404.1352836.1505140694121@mail.yahoo.com> <0c4401d32b13$f53376c0$df9a6440$@nl> Message-ID: <85640C38-4F2A-4554-B938-C924383C81F2@snyderemail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 15:24:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 14:24:43 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?sub_implode?= In-Reply-To: <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <20170912192443.15398.qmail@server268.com> It's people like this that are going to get killed and all of us will suffer. Freakin idiots! If you are going to build a submarine, do the correct engineering, don't try to "do it cheap", use the correct materials, do the correct construction procedures, test everything, and use correct safety procedures. Seeing these dumb asses makes me sick. -Scott Waters > -------Original Message------- > From: MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode > Sent: Sep 12 '17 13:17 > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MC7hFzOTFc > > vbr Carsten > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 17:42:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 14:42:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode Message-ID: <20170912144207.F1B19018@m0117568.ppops.net> At least somebody talked them into doing that test ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 14:24:43 -0500 It's people like this that are going to get killed and all of us will suffer. Freakin idiots! If you are going to build a submarine, do the correct engineering, don't try to "do it cheap", use the correct materials, do the correct construction procedures, test everything, and use correct safety procedures. Seeing these dumb asses makes me sick. -Scott Waters > -------Original Message------- > From: MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode > Sent: Sep 12 '17 13:17 > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MC7hFzOTFc > > vbr Carsten > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 18:44:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 10:44:43 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] UC3 Nautilus In-Reply-To: <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> Message-ID: Jon, he says that he was holding the hatch open & it fell on her head when he slipped. I would have thought the hatch would be fully out of the way when he climbed out. Any of the European guys that have been on that sub like to comment. Or are they helping enquiries! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 13/09/2017, at 3:01 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/world/europe/peter-madsen-kim-wall-murder-submarine-denmark.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles . From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 19:18:37 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 16:18:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] UC3 Nautilus Message-ID: <928353.5936.bm@smtp107.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No only that, there should be a latch, to lock the hatch open. Especially if it weighs 150lbs! Doesn't take much of a rough sea, to cause an unsecured hatch to slam shut, on what ever, or whoever may be in the way! Keith T. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Date: 9/12/17 3:44 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] UC3 Nautilus Jon, he says that he was holding the hatch open & it fell on her head when he slipped. I would have thought the hatch would be fully out of the way when he climbed out. Any of the European guys that have been on that sub like to comment. Or are they helping enquiries! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 13/09/2017, at 3:01 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/world/europe/peter-madsen-kim-wall-murder-submarine-denmark.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles . _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 19:31:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 17:31:26 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] UC3 Nautilus In-Reply-To: ruWrdeGRv2EQ9ruWsd5Kcn References: ruWrdeGRv2EQ9ruWsd5Kcn Message-ID: <3a735e87-54bf-4ac9-b67a-0313b9fe206b@email.android.com> 150 lbs without gas shocks or a counterbalance spring? Skeptical. Sean On September 12, 2017 5:18:37 PM MDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >No only that, there should be a latch, to lock the hatch open. >Especially if it weighs 150lbs! Doesn't take much of a rough sea, to >cause an unsecured hatch to slam shut, on what ever, or whoever may be >in the way! >Keith T. > > >Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >-------- Original message --------From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 9/12/17 3:44 PM (GMT-08:00) >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] UC3 >Nautilus >Jon, >he says that he was holding the hatch open & it fell on her head >when he slipped. I would have thought the hatch would be fully >out of the way when he climbed out. >Any of the European guys that have been on that sub like to >comment. Or are they helping enquiries! >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >> On 13/09/2017, at 3:01 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> >> >https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/world/europe/peter-madsen-kim-wall-murder-submarine-denmark.html >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >. > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 19:39:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 23:39:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] UC3 Nautilus In-Reply-To: References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1115937770.749235.1505259541115@mail.yahoo.com> Agreed,Elementary 3000 has a 130 lb hatch with no spring and it is at the limit for weight. ?There is no way that 150 lb hatch is not spring loaded and I have a safety bolt that prevents it closing. ?You would have to be real stupid to not have that. ?A total load of crap!Hank On Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 4:45:09 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, he says that he was holding the hatch open & it fell on her head when he slipped. I would have thought the hatch would be fully out of the way when he climbed out. Any of the European guys that have been on that sub like to comment. Or are they helping enquiries! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 13/09/2017, at 3:01 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/world/europe/peter-madsen-kim-wall-murder-submarine-denmark.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles . _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 20:07:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 17:07:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Message-ID: <20170912170703.F1A9CB47@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 20:36:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 00:36:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight In-Reply-To: <20170912170703.F1A9CB47@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20170912170703.F1A9CB47@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <169703742.787311.1505263013661@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, Corrosion triggered weight release was one of the safety features incorporated into James Cameron's sub Deep Sea Challenger. Greg From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 8:10 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Hi All,????????????? I had an idea for an emergency drop weight, and it would also work for a depth testing function.?? Basically it would be a corrosion triggered release.? Every time you go on a planned dive you insert a anode type material? ( a bi-metal corrosion bolt) which would be scheduled to corrode out in what ever time frame you want.? So in addition to your regular drop weight you would also have this back up device designed to disintegrate at a calculated time.? I know it would work in salt water , for fresh water you may have to use some kind of different materials.? I have a friend who's father use to do some studies for Scripps and the devised some fish traps that would float to the surface after a certain time period.?Brian_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 21:14:27 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 18:14:27 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Message-ID: <20170912181427.F1A9C9CB@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 21:58:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 01:58:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight In-Reply-To: <20170912181427.F1A9C9CB@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20170912181427.F1A9C9CB@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1465045680.841799.1505267918893@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,You still get the points.Hank On Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 7:14:42 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oh crap, thought I had an original thought !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 00:36:53 +0000 (UTC) Brian, Corrosion triggered weight release was one of the safety features incorporated into James Cameron's sub Deep Sea Challenger. Greg From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 8:10 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Hi All,????????????? I had an idea for an emergency drop weight, and it would also work for a depth testing function.?? Basically it would be a corrosion triggered release.? Every time you go on a planned dive you insert a anode type material? ( a bi-metal corrosion bolt) which would be scheduled to corrode out in what ever time frame you want.? So in addition to your regular drop weight you would also have this back up device designed to disintegrate at a calculated time.? I know it would work in salt water , for fresh water you may have to use some kind of different materials.? I have a friend who's father use to do some studies for Scripps and the devised some fish traps that would float to the surface after a certain time period.?Brian_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 22:31:10 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 21:31:10 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode In-Reply-To: <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: Good reliable psub in an excellent video by emile on the Drebbel expedition in Norway gets 975 hits on Youtube while death trap bathroom joke psub implosion in Germany gets 325,962 hits. What will the public remember! Cliff On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 1:15 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MC7hFzOTFc > > vbr Carsten > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 12 22:33:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 14:33:57 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight In-Reply-To: <1465045680.841799.1505267918893@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170912181427.F1A9C9CB@m0117164.ppops.net> <1465045680.841799.1505267918893@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Brian, sounds like it could be trouble. You would have to put it in & take it out after every dive. If you forget about it maybe you could drop your weights on the road towing home! Also you may be in an uncontrolled descent & want to drop as much weight as possible, quickly, & not in 12 hours time. For a long time they have been using barley sugar lollies as timers to drop long lines from various delivery devices! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 13/09/2017, at 1:58 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Brian, > You still get the points. > Hank > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 7:14:42 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Oh crap, thought I had an original thought ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 00:36:53 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > > Corrosion triggered weight release was one of the safety features incorporated into James Cameron's sub Deep Sea Challenger. > > Greg > > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: PSubs > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 8:10 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight > > Hi All, > I had an idea for an emergency drop weight, and it would also work for a depth testing function. Basically it would be a corrosion triggered release. Every time you go on a planned dive you insert a anode type material ( a bi-metal corrosion bolt) which would be scheduled to corrode out in what ever time frame you want. So in addition to your regular drop weight you would also have this back up device designed to disintegrate at a calculated time. I know it would work in salt water , for fresh water you may have to use some kind of different materials. I have a friend who's father use to do some studies for Scripps and the devised some fish traps that would float to the surface after a certain time period. > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 05:25:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 11:25:32 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode In-Reply-To: <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <0db601d32c72$3f2b90f0$bd82b2d0$@nl> Good that they have listened to the warnings. Who has the prize fr predicting the right implosion depth? Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: dinsdag 12 september 2017 20:15 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MC7hFzOTFc vbr Carsten ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 05:34:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 11:34:58 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode In-Reply-To: References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <0db701d32c73$90ab8f60$b202ae20$@nl> Cliff, Yep, You will got the most hits when jour video is dangerous , embarrassing, stupid etc. Maybe we should simulate some smoke or water ingress in next video ;-) The good news is that Alexej (Deep blue sea on youtube) his video channel is wachted many times. One Euronaut video got over 600.000 views! Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: woensdag 13 september 2017 4:31 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode Good reliable psub in an excellent video by emile on the Drebbel expedition in Norway gets 975 hits on Youtube while death trap bathroom joke psub implosion in Germany gets 325,962 hits. What will the public remember! Cliff On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 1:15 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MC7hFzOTFc vbr Carsten ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 07:53:57 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 11:53:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode In-Reply-To: <0db601d32c72$3f2b90f0$bd82b2d0$@nl> References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> <0db601d32c72$3f2b90f0$bd82b2d0$@nl> Message-ID: <488036155.1060697.1505303637049@mail.yahoo.com> What was the implosion depth, I could not watch the stupidity to find out. ?this was not a depth test, it was a scuttle because they finally scared themselves and want to save face.Hank On Wednesday, September 13, 2017, 3:25:48 AM MDT, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Good that they have listened to the warnings. Who has the prize fr predicting the right implosion depth? Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: dinsdag 12 september 2017 20:15 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MC7hFzOTFc vbr Carsten ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 08:15:54 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 06:15:54 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode In-Reply-To: s6JLd4Gj9lKVFs6JMd4jTE References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> <0db601d32c72$3f2b90f0$bd82b2d0$@nl> s6JLd4Gj9lKVFs6JMd4jTE Message-ID: 11m Sean On September 13, 2017 5:53:57 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >What was the implosion depth, I could not watch the stupidity to find >out. ?this was not a depth test, it was a scuttle because they finally >scared themselves and want to save face.Hank >On Wednesday, September 13, 2017, 3:25:48 AM MDT, emile via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Good that they have listened to the warnings. >Who has the prize fr predicting the right implosion depth? > >Emile > >-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >Van: Personal_Submersibles >[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens >MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles >Verzonden: dinsdag 12 september 2017 20:15 >Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode > > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MC7hFzOTFc > >vbr Carsten >? > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 08:35:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 14:35:19 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode In-Reply-To: References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> <0db601d32c72$3f2b90f0$bd82b2d0$@nl> Message-ID: 11 m that is still 7 tons or so pushing against the side of a tub. Impressive! ;-) Too bad the shape of the pressure hull is so unlike ours, so we can t call this an experiment. It d be nice someone sacrifices an old rusting k250. To see where it gets to. Perhaps kittredge did? Antoine On Wednesday, September 13, 2017, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > 11m > > Sean > > > On September 13, 2017 5:53:57 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> What was the implosion depth, I could not watch the stupidity to find >> out. this was not a depth test, it was a scuttle because they finally >> scared themselves and want to save face. >> Hank >> >> On Wednesday, September 13, 2017, 3:25:48 AM MDT, emile via >> Personal_Submersibles > > >> wrote: >> >> >> Good that they have listened to the warnings. >> Who has the prize fr predicting the right implosion depth? >> >> Emile >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- >> bounces at psubs.org >> ] >> Namens MerlinSub at t-online.de >> via >> Personal_Submersibles >> Verzonden: dinsdag 12 september 2017 20:15 >> Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MC7hFzOTFc >> >> vbr Carsten >> ? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 10:22:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:22:19 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight In-Reply-To: rvDGdeUVI2EQ9rvDHd5ZDr References: rvDGdeUVI2EQ9rvDHd5ZDr Message-ID: <6ac1b3c1-0cfc-4660-b83f-a5dd4a23edef@email.android.com> IIRC, the rules require at least two distinct positive mechanical actions to initiate a drop weight release. Such a corrosion fuse would seem to defy that requirement. Sean On September 12, 2017 6:07:03 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi All, > >I had an idea for an emergency drop weight, and it would also work for >a depth testing function. Basically it would be a corrosion triggered >release. Every time you go on a planned dive you insert a anode type >material ( a bi-metal corrosion bolt) which would be scheduled to >corrode out in what ever time frame you want. So in addition to your >regular drop weight you would also have this back up device designed to >disintegrate at a calculated time. I know it would work in salt water >, for fresh water you may have to use some kind of different materials. >I have a friend who's father use to do some studies for Scripps and the >devised some fish traps that would float to the surface after a certain >time period. > > > >Brian > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 11:03:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:03:20 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Message-ID: <20170913080320.F1AA2110@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 11:05:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:05:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Message-ID: <20170913080507.F1AA2187@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 11:20:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 09:20:42 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight In-Reply-To: s9D2d5QgAlKVFs9D3d5uYh References: s9D2d5QgAlKVFs9D3d5uYh Message-ID: <020c0722-3dd8-4602-a470-f6f3c9f82583@email.android.com> No. It means that you must make two distinct actions in order to release the weight at all. i.e. a single lever pull should not be able to drop your weight, but opening a safety cover over a release mechanism would constitute the two actions, for example. Sean On September 13, 2017 9:03:20 AM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean, Not sure I'm understanding " two distinct positive >mechanical actions" ? Does that mean you need to have two ways of >releasing your drop weight ? > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight >Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:22:19 -0600 > >IIRC, the rules require at least two distinct positive mechanical >actions to initiate a drop weight release. Such a corrosion fuse would >seem to defy that requirement. > >Sean > > >On September 12, 2017 6:07:03 PM MDT, Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Hi All, > >I had an idea for an emergency drop weight, and it would also work for >a depth testing function. Basically it would be a corrosion triggered >release. Every time you go on a planned dive you insert a anode type >material ( a bi-metal corrosion bolt) which would be scheduled to >corrode out in what ever time frame you want. So in addition to your >regular drop weight you would also have this back up device designed to >disintegrate at a calculated time. I know it would work in salt water >, for fresh water you may have to use some kind of different materials. >I have a friend who's father use to do some studies for Scripps and the >devised some fish traps that would float to the surface after a certain >time period. > > > >Brian > >_____________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 12:36:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 09:36:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Message-ID: <20170913093619.F1B1A1C2@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 14:56:54 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:56:54 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight In-Reply-To: sAh2dqa2TOUUcsAh3dNs6s References: sAh2dqa2TOUUcsAh3dNs6s Message-ID: <6861697f-a25d-42a5-8bee-afd9a623b0af@email.android.com> I think the intent of the rule is to ensure that a weight ditch is deliberate and not accidental. Requiring two actions (ideally separated by both location and mechanical character) reduces the probability of an accidental weight ditch to near the probability of mechanical failure causing the ditch. Sean On September 13, 2017 10:36:19 AM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean, The action of opening a safety cover seems a bit >superfluous . > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight >Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 09:20:42 -0600 > >No. It means that you must make two distinct actions in order to >release the weight at all. i.e. a single lever pull should not be able >to drop your weight, but opening a safety cover over a release >mechanism would constitute the two actions, for example. > >Sean > > >On September 13, 2017 9:03:20 AM MDT, Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Sean, Not sure I'm understanding " two distinct positive >mechanical actions" ? Does that mean you need to have two ways of >releasing your drop weight ? > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight >Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:22:19 -0600 > >IIRC, the rules require at least two distinct positive mechanical >actions to initiate a drop weight release. Such a corrosion fuse would >seem to defy that requirement. > >Sean > > >On September 12, 2017 6:07:03 PM MDT, Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Hi All, > >I had an idea for an emergency drop weight, and it would also work for >a depth testing function. Basically it would be a corrosion triggered >release. Every time you go on a planned dive you insert a anode type >material ( a bi-metal corrosion bolt) which would be scheduled to >corrode out in what ever time frame you want. So in addition to your >regular drop weight you would also have this back up device designed to >disintegrate at a calculated time. I know it would work in salt water >, for fresh water you may have to use some kind of different materials. >I have a friend who's father use to do some studies for Scripps and the >devised some fish traps that would float to the surface after a certain >time period. > > > >Brian > >_____________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_____________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 17:16:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 14:16:59 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Message-ID: <20170913141659.F1B50E6E@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 17:45:54 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 15:45:54 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight In-Reply-To: sF2Fdk15lNnSvsF2Hdxe1c References: sF2Fdk15lNnSvsF2Hdxe1c Message-ID: <80fff629-b103-4a99-adab-7678ff8d960a@email.android.com> Yes, that would probably meet the requirement. I'd be careful about any procedure that could prevent you from actuating the drop weight when you need to. Sean On September 13, 2017 3:16:59 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >So getting the handle for the release and securing it to the drop >weight shaft would qualify ? Makes sense, you wouldn't want an >accidental release. > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight >Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:56:54 -0600 > >I think the intent of the rule is to ensure that a weight ditch is >deliberate and not accidental. Requiring two actions (ideally separated >by both location and mechanical character) reduces the probability of >an accidental weight ditch to near the probability of mechanical >failure causing the ditch. > >Sean > > >On September 13, 2017 10:36:19 AM MDT, Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Sean, The action of opening a safety cover seems a bit >superfluous . > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight >Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 09:20:42 -0600 > >No. It means that you must make two distinct actions in order to >release the weight at all. i.e. a single lever pull should not be able >to drop your weight, but opening a safety cover over a release >mechanism would constitute the two actions, for example. > >Sean > > >On September 13, 2017 9:03:20 AM MDT, Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Sean, Not sure I'm understanding " two distinct positive >mechanical actions" ? Does that mean you need to have two ways of >releasing your drop weight ? > > > >Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > >From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight >Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:22:19 -0600 > >IIRC, the rules require at least two distinct positive mechanical >actions to initiate a drop weight release. Such a corrosion fuse would >seem to defy that requirement. > >Sean > > >On September 12, 2017 6:07:03 PM MDT, Brian Cox via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Hi All, > >I had an idea for an emergency drop weight, and it would also work for >a depth testing function. Basically it would be a corrosion triggered >release. Every time you go on a planned dive you insert a anode type >material ( a bi-metal corrosion bolt) which would be scheduled to >corrode out in what ever time frame you want. So in addition to your >regular drop weight you would also have this back up device designed to >disintegrate at a calculated time. I know it would work in salt water >, for fresh water you may have to use some kind of different materials. >I have a friend who's father use to do some studies for Scripps and the >devised some fish traps that would float to the surface after a certain >time period. > > > >Brian > >_____________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_____________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_____________________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 18:29:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 22:29:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode In-Reply-To: References: <398298995.883196.1502632195531.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <398298995.883196.1502632195531@mail.yahoo.com> <1502640984921.2521318.6de5d1b8302ae6bb756f548c808eed45df1ee831@spica.telekom.de> <1622683698.1029574.1502649486538@mail.yahoo.com> <3ce5051a-92f8-5161-65d9-84f0d65616d2@ohiohills.com> <312451248.1589324.1502742550490@mail.yahoo.com> <6902f2af-771b-a63d-f214-b936b8dd77e5@ohiohills.com> <299519125.3294374.1502887663808@mail.yahoo.com> <561363362.2050009.1503319078930@mail.yahoo.com> <8ab86341-fc39-4f3e-963a-536ea2ca679b@email.android.com> <3c117e73-5f39-4fa6-bf8e-5ec715aa76cb@email.android.com> <2DB0181B-2FB4-49CD-8EA2-52867991A7D7@yahoo.com> <031c1e76-4d95-7843-185e-527c624a3c89@psubs.org> <1505240107403.266415.a632f1b4499e067732ef2a63b39edc2943d4bccf@spica.telekom.de> <0db601d32c72$3f2b90f0$bd82b2d0$@nl> Message-ID: <1708931649.1527580.1505341764878@mail.yahoo.com> George had a K-250 tested in a chamber. He showed me a print out of the test results- the dome failed at a depth of 823 ft. The hull was measured a hundred different ways and found to be fine. Greg From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 8:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode 11 m that is still 7 tons or so pushing against the side of a tub. Impressive! ;-)Too bad the shape of the pressure hull?is so unlike ours,?so we can t call this an experiment.It d be nice someone sacrifices an old?rusting?k250. To see where it gets to. Perhaps kittredge did? Antoine? On Wednesday, September 13, 2017, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: 11mSean On September 13, 2017 5:53:57 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What was the implosion depth, I could not watch the stupidity to find out. ?this was not a depth test, it was a scuttle because they finally scared themselves and want to save face.Hank On Wednesday, September 13, 2017, 3:25:48 AM MDT, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Good that they have listened to the warnings. Who has the prize fr predicting the right implosion depth? Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- bounces at psubs.org] Namens MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: dinsdag 12 september 2017 20:15 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] sub implode https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=6MC7hFzOTFc vbr Carsten ? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 18:33:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 22:33:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight In-Reply-To: <20170912181427.F1A9C9CB@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20170912181427.F1A9C9CB@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1330941842.1553342.1505341998509@mail.yahoo.com> You did! Great minds think alike ( you and Ron Allum) From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Oh crap, thought I had an original thought !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 00:36:53 +0000 (UTC) Brian, Corrosion triggered weight release was one of the safety features incorporated into James Cameron's sub Deep Sea Challenger. Greg From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 8:10 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Hi All,????????????? I had an idea for an emergency drop weight, and it would also work for a depth testing function.?? Basically it would be a corrosion triggered release.? Every time you go on a planned dive you insert a anode type material? ( a bi-metal corrosion bolt) which would be scheduled to corrode out in what ever time frame you want.? So in addition to your regular drop weight you would also have this back up device designed to disintegrate at a calculated time.? I know it would work in salt water , for fresh water you may have to use some kind of different materials.? I have a friend who's father use to do some studies for Scripps and the devised some fish traps that would float to the surface after a certain time period.?Brian_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 18:42:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 22:42:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight In-Reply-To: <20170913080507.F1AA2187@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20170913080507.F1AA2187@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <884074273.1532171.1505342573935@mail.yahoo.com> You can buy them off the shelf here- http://www.lfsmarineoutdoor.com/time-releases-galvanized-1-7-day.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMInv3llJ2j1gIVjFqGCh3nCwZrEAQYASABEgI28PD_BwE You can also use something called a "burn wire" that burns through when current is applied. Greg Cottrell From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Greg ,??????????????? Do you happen to know the make up of the corrosion mechanism that was used?? ?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 00:36:53 +0000 (UTC) Brian, Corrosion triggered weight release was one of the safety features incorporated into James Cameron's sub Deep Sea Challenger. Greg From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 8:10 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Hi All,????????????? I had an idea for an emergency drop weight, and it would also work for a depth testing function.?? Basically it would be a corrosion triggered release.? Every time you go on a planned dive you insert a anode type material? ( a bi-metal corrosion bolt) which would be scheduled to corrode out in what ever time frame you want.? So in addition to your regular drop weight you would also have this back up device designed to disintegrate at a calculated time.? I know it would work in salt water , for fresh water you may have to use some kind of different materials.? I have a friend who's father use to do some studies for Scripps and the devised some fish traps that would float to the surface after a certain time period.?Brian_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 19:24:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 16:24:02 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Message-ID: <20170913162402.342F8973@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 19:53:13 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 23:53:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight In-Reply-To: <20170913162402.342F8973@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20170913162402.342F8973@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: <787118321.1591291.1505346793274@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, This is a link to the company that supplied the galvanic timers for the Deep Sea Challenger. I'm sure they be happy to give you some specs- Galvanic Timed Releases - International Fishing Devices | | | | | | | | | | | Galvanic Timed Releases - International Fishing Devices For over 40 years, International Fishing Devices, Inc. has been the designers and manufacturers of Galvanic Time... | | | | Greg Cottrell From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Interesting,? They don't really give any specs on the amount of weight it can carry though.?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 22:42:53 +0000 (UTC) You can buy them off the shelf here- http://www.lfsmarineoutdoor.com/time-releases-galvanized-1-7-day.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMInv3llJ2j1gIVjFqGCh3nCwZrEAQYASABEgI28PD_BwE You can also use something called a "burn wire" that burns through when current is applied. Greg Cottrell From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Greg ,??????????????? Do you happen to know the make up of the corrosion mechanism that was used?? ?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 00:36:53 +0000 (UTC) Brian, Corrosion triggered weight release was one of the safety features incorporated into James Cameron's sub Deep Sea Challenger. Greg From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 8:10 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Drop weight Hi All,????????????? I had an idea for an emergency drop weight, and it would also work for a depth testing function.?? Basically it would be a corrosion triggered release.? Every time you go on a planned dive you insert a anode type material? ( a bi-metal corrosion bolt) which would be scheduled to corrode out in what ever time frame you want.? So in addition to your regular drop weight you would also have this back up device designed to disintegrate at a calculated time.? I know it would work in salt water , for fresh water you may have to use some kind of different materials.? I have a friend who's father use to do some studies for Scripps and the devised some fish traps that would float to the surface after a certain time period.?Brian_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 19:52:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 23:52:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutlass bearing References: <563883579.1558774.1505346758118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <563883579.1558774.1505346758118@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I am looking for a water lubricated shaft bearing for a 5\8 shaft. ?I can not find a cutlass bearing that small. ?Any ideas or leads would be appreciated.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 20:15:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 00:15:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutlass bearing In-Reply-To: <563883579.1558774.1505346758118@mail.yahoo.com> References: <563883579.1558774.1505346758118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <563883579.1558774.1505346758118@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <424030713.1592496.1505348118316@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Hank, Try these guys- ASB Bearings: Bronze Bearings, Bronze Bushings, Brass Bushings, and Brass Bearings | | | | | | | | | | | ASB Bearings: Bronze Bearings, Bronze Bushings, Brass Bushings, and Brass B... By ASB Bearings - the bushing specialists We produce brass and bronze bushings and bearings that are custom and standard machined to serve in a variety of... | | | | Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 7:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutlass bearing Hi All,I am looking for a water lubricated shaft bearing for a 5\8 shaft. ?I can not find a cutlass bearing that small. ?Any ideas or leads would be appreciated.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 20:31:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 00:31:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,Thank you Greg, just sent them a request. I have tested my air cylinder compensator for my thrusters both in the pressure test and a couple days ago to 100 feet. ? The set up seems to work with no water intrusion into the motors. ?I have the cylinder mounted below the motors witch causes a small air pocket in the hydraulic fitting on top of the motor. ?I am not worried about the small amount of air except the potential of oil being forced up past the air pocket. ?This makes me think the compensating cylinder should be above the motors. ?Then I wonder why does the compensating cylinder need oil in it at all. ?As long as the bore in the cylinder has enough volume so the piston is not bottomed out at max depth. ?I also have a small spring pushing the cylinder rod to create a small internal pressure above ambient. ?Is my logic flawed? ?it would be very convenient to eliminate the oil in the cylinder and would make the compensator ?faster to react to pressure change say in a fast ascent. ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 23:08:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 03:08:21 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutlass bearing In-Reply-To: <424030713.1592496.1505348118316@mail.yahoo.com> References: <563883579.1558774.1505346758118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <563883579.1558774.1505346758118@mail.yahoo.com> <424030713.1592496.1505348118316@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank I have a water lubricated shaft seal on my sailboat but larger than that. Got it through a marine supply store. Are you looking for something like that or is it for the sub? Rick On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:16 PM james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Hank, > > Try these guys- > > ASB Bearings: Bronze Bearings, Bronze Bushings, Brass Bushings, and Brass > Bearings > > ASB Bearings: Bronze Bearings, Bronze Bushings, Brass Bushings, and Brass > B... > By ASB Bearings - the bushing specialists > We produce brass and bronze bushings and bearings that are custom and > standard machined to serve in a variety of... > > > > Greg > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 13, 2017 7:58 PM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutlass bearing > > Hi All, > I am looking for a water lubricated shaft bearing for a 5\8 shaft. I can > not find a cutlass bearing that small. Any ideas or leads would be > appreciated. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 13 23:24:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 15:24:04 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9CDF53FE-EE45-4048-94B9-776CF543B861@yahoo.com> Hank, are you oil compensating your thruster? If so you would need to calculate the volume of air in the cylinder & air line leading to it. I am not sure what depth you are taking the sub to, but at 300ft the air will compress to 1/12th it's original volume. If you oil filled the compensator it would be a better back up for any oil that will leak out of your thruster. You could always go with one of those accumulator bladders Scott mentioned or Cliff's relieving regulator. ( Hugh's idea) Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/09/2017, at 12:31 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > Thank you Greg, just sent them a request. > > I have tested my air cylinder compensator for my thrusters both in the pressure test and a couple days ago to 100 feet. The set up seems to work with no water intrusion into the motors. I have the cylinder mounted below the motors witch causes a small air pocket in the hydraulic fitting on top of the motor. I am not worried about the small amount of air except the potential of oil being forced up past the air pocket. This makes me think the compensating cylinder should be above the motors. Then I wonder why does the compensating cylinder need oil in it at all. As long as the bore in the cylinder has enough volume so the piston is not bottomed out at max depth. I also have a small spring pushing the cylinder rod to create a small internal pressure above ambient. Is my logic flawed? it would be very convenient to eliminate the oil in the cylinder and would make the compensator faster to react to pressure change say in a fast ascent. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 14 05:51:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 09:51:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutlass bearing In-Reply-To: References: <563883579.1558774.1505346758118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <563883579.1558774.1505346758118@mail.yahoo.com> <424030713.1592496.1505348118316@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1218848714.1801024.1505382677778@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,?I am looking for the same thing your boat has but in 5\8 inch dia and the smallest cutlass bearing is 3\4 that i could find anyways. ?Yes it is for the sub.Hank On Wednesday, September 13, 2017, 9:08:51 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank?I have a water lubricated shaft seal on my sailboat but larger than that. Got it through a marine supply store. Are you looking for something like that or is it for the sub?Rick? On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:16 PM james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Try these guys- ASB Bearings: Bronze Bearings, Bronze Bushings, Brass Bushings, and Brass Bearings | | | | | | | | | | | ASB Bearings: Bronze Bearings, Bronze Bushings, Brass Bushings, and Brass B... By ASB Bearings - the bushing specialists We produce brass and bronze bushings and bearings that are custom and standard machined to serve in a variety of... | | | | Greg From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 7:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cutlass bearing Hi All,I am looking for a water lubricated shaft bearing for a 5\8 shaft.? I can not find a cutlass bearing that small.? Any ideas or leads would be appreciated.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 14 05:55:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 09:55:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: <9CDF53FE-EE45-4048-94B9-776CF543B861@yahoo.com> References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <9CDF53FE-EE45-4048-94B9-776CF543B861@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1383429389.1799046.1505382920996@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I am compensating two thrusters from one air cylinder filled with oil. ?It seems to be working terrific, but maybe best to just leave it alone. ?Why fix it if it aint broke.Hank On Wednesday, September 13, 2017, 10:05:19 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,are you oil compensating your thruster?If so you would need to calculate the volume of air in the cylinder & air lineleading to it. I am not sure what depth you are taking the sub to, but at300ft the air will compress to 1/12th it's original volume.If you oil filled the compensator it would be a better back up for any oilthat will leak out of your thruster.You could always go with one of those accumulator bladders Scott mentionedor Cliff's relieving regulator. ( Hugh's idea)Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/09/2017, at 12:31 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,Thank you Greg, just sent them a request. I have tested my air cylinder compensator for my thrusters both in the pressure test and a couple days ago to 100 feet. ? The set up seems to work with no water intrusion into the motors. ?I have the cylinder mounted below the motors witch causes a small air pocket in the hydraulic fitting on top of the motor. ?I am not worried about the small amount of air except the potential of oil being forced up past the air pocket. ?This makes me think the compensating cylinder should be above the motors. ?Then I wonder why does the compensating cylinder need oil in it at all. ?As long as the bore in the cylinder has enough volume so the piston is not bottomed out at max depth. ?I also have a small spring pushing the cylinder rod to create a small internal pressure above ambient. ?Is my logic flawed? ?it would be very convenient to eliminate the oil in the cylinder and would make the compensator ?faster to react to pressure change say in a fast ascent. ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 15 11:05:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 11:05:50 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] FL Keys Post-Irma Message-ID: Hello All, Doug here with a quick word on our property in the Keys. We weathered the storm with no major damage to the house or to the boat! We did lose a good chunk of the "tiki hut" down by the canal, but that is easily repaired. We consider ourselves extremely fortunate because many Keys residents have lost their homes, cars, boats, etc. A major mitigating factor was that the storm hit the other side of the island first, so we had a "storm break" of sorts made up of all those properties closer to the Atlantic side of the island. I've spoken with Jon about his property and thankfully he's in a similar situation: no real damage to his house, though he did lose some vegetation. Thank you to all who were thinking of us as that monster passed through. While we made out okay, many did not. The Keys were hit hard by Irma and it will take months (probably years) to fully recover from the destruction. ~ Doug From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 15 11:30:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 11:30:41 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] FL Keys Post-Irma In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15e8629d3e5-c01-795f@webjas-vaa103.srv.aolmail.net> Doug and Jon, I think we're all quite relieved to hear you weathered the storm so well. ?Our thoughts are with your neighbors and others who suffered so much loss. Best regards, Jim ? In a message dated 9/15/2017 10:06:18 AM Central Standard Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: ? Hello All, Doug here with a quick word on our property in the Keys. We weathered the storm with no major damage to the house or to the boat! We did lose a good chunk of the "tiki hut" down by the canal, but that is easily repaired. We consider ourselves extremely fortunate because many Keys residents have lost their homes, cars, boats, etc. A major mitigating factor was that the storm hit the other side of the island first, so we had a "storm break" of sorts made up of all those properties closer to the Atlantic side of the island. I've spoken with Jon about his property and thankfully he's in a similar situation: no real damage to his house, though he did lose some vegetation. Thank you to all who were thinking of us as that monster passed through. While we made out okay, many did not. The Keys were hit hard by Irma and it will take months (probably years) to fully recover from the destruction. ~ Doug _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 15 11:34:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 03:34:29 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] FL Keys Post-Irma In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Doug, thanks for the update on our submarine base. I had been thinking of it, & thought that little hut might come to grief! Good news that you & Jon's properties survived. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 16/09/2017, at 3:05 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hello All, Doug here with a quick word on our property in the Keys. We > weathered the storm with no major damage to the house or to the boat! > We did lose a good chunk of the "tiki hut" down by the canal, but that > is easily repaired. We consider ourselves extremely fortunate because > many Keys residents have lost their homes, cars, boats, etc. A major > mitigating factor was that the storm hit the other side of the island > first, so we had a "storm break" of sorts made up of all those > properties closer to the Atlantic side of the island. > > I've spoken with Jon about his property and thankfully he's in a > similar situation: no real damage to his house, though he did lose > some vegetation. > > Thank you to all who were thinking of us as that monster passed > through. While we made out okay, many did not. The Keys were hit hard > by Irma and it will take months (probably years) to fully recover from > the destruction. ~ Doug > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles . From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 15 12:27:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory B. Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 11:27:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] FL Keys Post-Irma In-Reply-To: <15e8629d3e5-c01-795f@webjas-vaa103.srv.aolmail.net> References: <15e8629d3e5-c01-795f@webjas-vaa103.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <2E332366-5E13-4065-A370-6A88D1B6C1E7@snyderemail.com> I wholeheartedly agree! Our thoughts and best wishes go out to you and all of your neighbors rebuilding from that incredibly huge storm. Best personal regards Greg > On Sep 15, 2017, at 10:30 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doug and Jon, > I think we're all quite relieved to hear you weathered the storm so well. Our thoughts are with your neighbors and others who suffered so much loss. > Best regards, > Jim > > In a message dated 9/15/2017 10:06:18 AM Central Standard Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > Hello All, Doug here with a quick word on our property in the Keys. We > weathered the storm with no major damage to the house or to the boat! > We did lose a good chunk of the "tiki hut" down by the canal, but that > is easily repaired. We consider ourselves extremely fortunate because > many Keys residents have lost their homes, cars, boats, etc. A major > mitigating factor was that the storm hit the other side of the island > first, so we had a "storm break" of sorts made up of all those > properties closer to the Atlantic side of the island. > > I've spoken with Jon about his property and thankfully he's in a > similar situation: no real damage to his house, though he did lose > some vegetation. > > Thank you to all who were thinking of us as that monster passed > through. While we made out okay, many did not. The Keys were hit hard > by Irma and it will take months (probably years) to fully recover from > the destruction. ~ Doug > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 15 16:46:46 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 13:46:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] FL Keys Post-Irma In-Reply-To: <2E332366-5E13-4065-A370-6A88D1B6C1E7@snyderemail.com> References: <15e8629d3e5-c01-795f@webjas-vaa103.srv.aolmail.net> <2E332366-5E13-4065-A370-6A88D1B6C1E7@snyderemail.com> Message-ID: Glad to hear that you weathered the storm. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Gregory B. Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I wholeheartedly agree! > Our thoughts and best wishes go out to you and all of your neighbors > rebuilding from that incredibly huge storm. > Best personal regards > Greg > > On Sep 15, 2017, at 10:30 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Doug and Jon, > I think we're all quite relieved to hear you weathered the storm so well. > Our thoughts are with your neighbors and others who suffered so much loss. > Best regards, > Jim > > In a message dated 9/15/2017 10:06:18 AM Central Standard Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > Hello All, Doug here with a quick word on our property in the Keys. We > weathered the storm with no major damage to the house or to the boat! > We did lose a good chunk of the "tiki hut" down by the canal, but that > is easily repaired. We consider ourselves extremely fortunate because > many Keys residents have lost their homes, cars, boats, etc. A major > mitigating factor was that the storm hit the other side of the island > first, so we had a "storm break" of sorts made up of all those > properties closer to the Atlantic side of the island. > > I've spoken with Jon about his property and thankfully he's in a > similar situation: no real damage to his house, though he did lose > some vegetation. > > Thank you to all who were thinking of us as that monster passed > through. While we made out okay, many did not. The Keys were hit hard > by Irma and it will take months (probably years) to fully recover from > the destruction. ~ Doug > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 15 17:07:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 23:07:32 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Message-ID: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head selection, i found a seler in california and have flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 15 17:20:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 21:20:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463718716.466973.1505510442511@mail.yahoo.com> Roberto,I think you are looking for beveled for welding and code.Hank On Friday, September 15, 2017, 3:07:50 PM MDT, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd )_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 15 17:25:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 17:25:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head > selection, i found a seler in california and have > flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, > > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 15 17:28:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 17:28:05 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > Hi Roberto, > > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and > code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a > flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a > project page or something so we can follow progress! > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head >> selection, i found a seler in california and have >> flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, >> >> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 15 18:50:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 18:50:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] FL Keys Post-Irma In-Reply-To: References: <15e8629d3e5-c01-795f@webjas-vaa103.srv.aolmail.net> <2E332366-5E13-4065-A370-6A88D1B6C1E7@snyderemail.com> Message-ID: Thanks guys, it's appreciated! Yes Alan, you thought correctly, that poor hut got badly torn up (but the four main stanchions are dug deep, so they held). ~ Doug On 9/15/17, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Glad to hear that you weathered the storm. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Gregory B. Snyder via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> I wholeheartedly agree! >> Our thoughts and best wishes go out to you and all of your neighbors >> rebuilding from that incredibly huge storm. >> Best personal regards >> Greg >> >> On Sep 15, 2017, at 10:30 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Doug and Jon, >> I think we're all quite relieved to hear you weathered the storm so well. >> Our thoughts are with your neighbors and others who suffered so much >> loss. >> Best regards, >> Jim >> >> In a message dated 9/15/2017 10:06:18 AM Central Standard Time, >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> Hello All, Doug here with a quick word on our property in the Keys. We >> weathered the storm with no major damage to the house or to the boat! >> We did lose a good chunk of the "tiki hut" down by the canal, but that >> is easily repaired. We consider ourselves extremely fortunate because >> many Keys residents have lost their homes, cars, boats, etc. A major >> mitigating factor was that the storm hit the other side of the island >> first, so we had a "storm break" of sorts made up of all those >> properties closer to the Atlantic side of the island. >> >> I've spoken with Jon about his property and thankfully he's in a >> similar situation: no real damage to his house, though he did lose >> some vegetation. >> >> Thank you to all who were thinking of us as that monster passed >> through. While we made out okay, many did not. The Keys were hit hard >> by Irma and it will take months (probably years) to fully recover from >> the destruction. ~ Doug >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 15 21:50:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 03:50:03 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank`s i search on several web sites and this one have a dealer in california, ( i am on the west coast ) this is the page http://www.cmforming.com/tankheads-and-accessories.htm 2017-09-15 23:28 GMT+02:00 Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > > !!!!!!! > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > >> Hi Roberto, >> >> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, >> and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make >> a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a >> project page or something so we can follow progress! >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head >>> selection, i found a seler in california and have >>> flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, >>> >>> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 00:26:56 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 16:26:56 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank got me thinking about compensators again. I had made an initial design for a compensator, using a spring to produce over-pressure. This design is pretty standard in operation, with lots of variations. One problem with the spring is that it might be producing 8 pounds of force at the start, but as the oil level goes down & the spring extends, the over-pressure is reduced. Some of the springs I have seen are pretty large, possibly in an effort to keep the pressure range in a narrower band. 4-5 psi seems a normal over-pressure. If I replaced the spring with a cylindrical 5lb weight, I would get the same 4lb (weight in water) over-pressure throughout the range of the diaphragms travel. Can anyone see a problem with this? Any comments. The lead may bounce around a bit during transport but I don't think this would be a problem. My initial design is attached! Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:37 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation Hi All, Thank you Greg, just sent them a request. I have tested my air cylinder compensator for my thrusters both in the pressure test and a couple days ago to 100 feet. The set up seems to work with no water intrusion into the motors. I have the cylinder mounted below the motors witch causes a small air pocket in the hydraulic fitting on top of the motor. I am not worried about the small amount of air except the potential of oil being forced up past the air pocket. This makes me think the compensating cylinder should be above the motors. Then I wonder why does the compensating cylinder need oil in it at all. As long as the bore in the cylinder has enough volume so the piston is not bottomed out at max depth. I also have a small spring pushing the cylinder rod to create a small internal pressure above ambient. Is my logic flawed? it would be very convenient to eliminate the oil in the cylinder and would make the compensator faster to react to pressure change say in a fast ascent. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: compensator.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 218804 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 05:07:34 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 09:07:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I don't think there is a need to worry about constant pressure through the diaphragm stroke. ?You would fill the compensator with fluid to the maximum level. ?The amount of travel would be equivalent to the amount of air trapped in the system plus any expansion due to temperature change. These two things would be so minimal that the amount of travel would be so small the pressure ?from the spring would stay quite constant. ?I can not see the entire drawing because I can not move it over for some reason ;-( ?. ?Very clever Idea though using a weight. ?You could take an ?air cylinder with a bit of extra length and put a lead weight around the shaft inside the cylinder above the piston, and you would be done.Hank On Friday, September 15, 2017, 10:27:25 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank got me thinking about compensators again.I had made an initial design for a compensator, using a springto produce over-pressure. This design is pretty standard in operation,with lots of variations.One problem with the spring is that it might be producing 8 pounds offorce at the start, but as the oil level goes down & the spring extends,the over-pressure is reduced. Some of the springs I have seen arepretty large, possibly in an effort to keep the pressure range in a narrowerband. 4-5 psi seems a normal over-pressure.If I replaced the spring with a cylindrical 5lb weight, I would get the same4lb (weight in water) over-pressure throughout the range of the diaphragms travel. Can anyone see a problem with this? Any comments. The lead may bounce?around a bitduring transport but I don't think this would be a problem.?My initial design is attached!Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:37 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation Hi All,Thank you Greg, just sent them a request. I have tested my air cylinder compensator for my thrusters both in the pressure test and a couple days ago to 100 feet. ? The set up seems to work with no water intrusion into the motors. ?I have the cylinder mounted below the motors witch causes a small air pocket in the hydraulic fitting on top of the motor. ?I am not worried about the small amount of air except the potential of oil being forced up past the air pocket. ?This makes me think the compensating cylinder should be above the motors. ?Then I wonder why does the compensating cylinder need oil in it at all. ?As long as the bore in the cylinder has enough volume so the piston is not bottomed out at max depth. ?I also have a small spring pushing the cylinder rod to create a small internal pressure above ambient. ?Is my logic flawed? ?it would be very convenient to eliminate the oil in the cylinder and would make the compensator ?faster to react to pressure change say in a fast ascent. ?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: compensator.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 218804 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 05:59:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 21:59:52 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6D93872E-1764-48F1-B4A8-215E2E25A94A@yahoo.com> Hank, just had another look at a free 150 page ex military document, " Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems For Deep Ocean Applications" ( had it printed & bound) couldn't see any reference to using a weight for over-pressure. The system I drew is pretty typical. The volume of their compensators seemed to start at 500ml & go up from there. An amount of leakage must be expected, or a reserve volume is maintained as a fail safe in case a leak starts. I remember a remark from either Carsten or Emile that they went to one compensator per motor because they couldn't isolate the thruster that was leaking when using one compensator for all thrusters. In the publication I think I can remember piston type systems not being popular because of the low pressures involved & the chances of them sticking because of "crut" in the marine environment. However these subs were going to serious depths. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 16/09/2017, at 9:07 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I don't think there is a need to worry about constant pressure through the diaphragm stroke. You would fill the compensator with fluid to the maximum level. The amount of travel would be equivalent to the amount of air trapped in the system plus any expansion due to temperature change. These two things would be so minimal that the amount of travel would be so small the pressure from the spring would stay quite constant. I can not see the entire drawing because I can not move it over for some reason ;-( . Very clever Idea though using a weight. You could take an air cylinder with a bit of extra length and put a lead weight around the shaft inside the cylinder above the piston, and you would be done. > Hank > > On Friday, September 15, 2017, 10:27:25 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank got me thinking about compensators again. > I had made an initial design for a compensator, using a spring > to produce over-pressure. This design is pretty standard in operation, > with lots of variations. > One problem with the spring is that it might be producing 8 pounds of > force at the start, but as the oil level goes down & the spring extends, > the over-pressure is reduced. Some of the springs I have seen are > pretty large, possibly in an effort to keep the pressure range in a narrower > band. 4-5 psi seems a normal over-pressure. > If I replaced the spring with a cylindrical 5lb weight, I would get the same > 4lb (weight in water) over-pressure throughout the range of the diaphragms > travel. > Can anyone see a problem with this? Any comments. The lead may bounce > around a bit > during transport but I don't think this would be a problem. > My initial design is attached! > Alan > > > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:37 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation > > Hi All, > Thank you Greg, just sent them a request. > > I have tested my air cylinder compensator for my thrusters both in the pressure test and a couple days ago to 100 feet. The set up seems to work with no water intrusion into the motors. I have the cylinder mounted below the motors witch causes a small air pocket in the hydraulic fitting on top of the motor. I am not worried about the small amount of air except the potential of oil being forced up past the air pocket. This makes me think the compensating cylinder should be above the motors. Then I wonder why does the compensating cylinder need oil in it at all. As long as the bore in the cylinder has enough volume so the piston is not bottomed out at max depth. I also have a small spring pushing the cylinder rod to create a small internal pressure above ambient. Is my logic flawed? it would be very convenient to eliminate the oil in the cylinder and would make the compensator faster to react to pressure change say in a fast ascent. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 09:18:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 13:18:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: <6D93872E-1764-48F1-B4A8-215E2E25A94A@yahoo.com> References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> <6D93872E-1764-48F1-B4A8-215E2E25A94A@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2032635244.3217609.1505567919718@mail.yahoo.com> Many of the work class ROVs with oil compensation use the type of brake chambers seen on big trucks for compensation. Some of them use glycol instead of oil because its less damaging to the environment in the event of a leak. Greg From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation Hank,just had another look at a free 150 page ex military document," Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating SystemsFor Deep Ocean Applications" ( had it printed & bound) couldn't see?any reference to using a weight for over-pressure. The system I drew is?pretty typical.?The volume of their compensators seemed?to start at 500ml?& go up?from there. An amount of leakage must be expected, or a reserve volume?is maintained as a fail safe in case a leak starts. ?I remember a remark from?either Carsten or Emile that they went to one compensator per motor because?they couldn't isolate the thruster that was leaking when using one?compensator for all thrusters.In the publication I think I can remember piston type systems not being?popular because of the low pressures involved & the chances of themsticking because of "crut" in the marine environment. However these subswere going to serious depths.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 16/09/2017, at 9:07 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I don't think there is a need to worry about constant pressure through the diaphragm stroke. ?You would fill the compensator with fluid to the maximum level. ?The amount of travel would be equivalent to the amount of air trapped in the system plus any expansion due to temperature change. These two things would be so minimal that the amount of travel would be so small the pressure ?from the spring would stay quite constant. ?I can not see the entire drawing because I can not move it over for some reason ;-( ?. ?Very clever Idea though using a weight. ?You could take an ?air cylinder with a bit of extra length and put a lead weight around the shaft inside the cylinder above the piston, and you would be done.Hank On Friday, September 15, 2017, 10:27:25 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank got me thinking about compensators again.I had made an initial design for a compensator, using a springto produce over-pressure. This design is pretty standard in operation,with lots of variations.One problem with the spring is that it might be producing 8 pounds offorce at the start, but as the oil level goes down & the spring extends,the over-pressure is reduced. Some of the springs I have seen arepretty large, possibly in an effort to keep the pressure range in a narrowerband. 4-5 psi seems a normal over-pressure.If I replaced the spring with a cylindrical 5lb weight, I would get the same4lb (weight in water) over-pressure throughout the range of the diaphragms travel. Can anyone see a problem with this? Any comments. The lead may bounce?around a bitduring transport but I don't think this would be a problem.?My initial design is attached!Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:37 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation Hi All,Thank you Greg, just sent them a request. I have tested my air cylinder compensator for my thrusters both in the pressure test and a couple days ago to 100 feet. ? The set up seems to work with no water intrusion into the motors. ?I have the cylinder mounted below the motors witch causes a small air pocket in the hydraulic fitting on top of the motor. ?I am not worried about the small amount of air except the potential of oil being forced up past the air pocket. ?This makes me think the compensating cylinder should be above the motors. ?Then I wonder why does the compensating cylinder need oil in it at all. ?As long as the bore in the cylinder has enough volume so the piston is not bottomed out at max depth. ?I also have a small spring pushing the cylinder rod to create a small internal pressure above ambient. ?Is my logic flawed? ?it would be very convenient to eliminate the oil in the cylinder and would make the compensator ?faster to react to pressure change say in a fast ascent. ?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www..psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 10:47:09 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 14:47:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: <2032635244.3217609.1505567919718@mail.yahoo.com> References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> <6D93872E-1764-48F1-B4A8-215E2E25A94A@yahoo.com> <2032635244.3217609.1505567919718@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <799652774.751096.1505573229487@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,?You have a point with the air cylinder, the piston does take a tiny bit of effort to move especially when the shaft seal is still in place. ?That is why I put a spring assist on it. ?A rubber membrane is probably better than a piston. ?But this is working, so I will continue with it, but I will move it above the motors and install an internal spring from a starter solenoid. ?The external spring is kinda ugly and just loos wrong ;-)Hank On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 7:19:00 AM MDT, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Many of the work class ROVs with oil compensation use the type of brake chambers seen on big trucks for compensation. Some of them use glycol instead of oil because its less damaging to the environment in the event of a leak. Greg From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation Hank,just had another look at a free 150 page ex military document," Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating SystemsFor Deep Ocean Applications" ( had it printed & bound) couldn't see?any reference to using a weight for over-pressure. The system I drew is?pretty typical.?The volume of their compensators seemed?to start at 500ml?& go up?from there. An amount of leakage must be expected, or a reserve volume?is maintained as a fail safe in case a leak starts. ?I remember a remark from?either Carsten or Emile that they went to one compensator per motor because?they couldn't isolate the thruster that was leaking when using one?compensator for all thrusters.In the publication I think I can remember piston type systems not being?popular because of the low pressures involved & the chances of themsticking because of "crut" in the marine environment. However these subswere going to serious depths.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 16/09/2017, at 9:07 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I don't think there is a need to worry about constant pressure through the diaphragm stroke. ?You would fill the compensator with fluid to the maximum level. ?The amount of travel would be equivalent to the amount of air trapped in the system plus any expansion due to temperature change. These two things would be so minimal that the amount of travel would be so small the pressure ?from the spring would stay quite constant. ?I can not see the entire drawing because I can not move it over for some reason ;-( ?. ?Very clever Idea though using a weight. ?You could take an ?air cylinder with a bit of extra length and put a lead weight around the shaft inside the cylinder above the piston, and you would be done.Hank On Friday, September 15, 2017, 10:27:25 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank got me thinking about compensators again.I had made an initial design for a compensator, using a springto produce over-pressure. This design is pretty standard in operation,with lots of variations.One problem with the spring is that it might be producing 8 pounds offorce at the start, but as the oil level goes down & the spring extends,the over-pressure is reduced. Some of the springs I have seen arepretty large, possibly in an effort to keep the pressure range in a narrowerband. 4-5 psi seems a normal over-pressure.If I replaced the spring with a cylindrical 5lb weight, I would get the same4lb (weight in water) over-pressure throughout the range of the diaphragms travel. Can anyone see a problem with this? Any comments. The lead may bounce?around a bitduring transport but I don't think this would be a problem.?My initial design is attached!Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:37 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation Hi All,Thank you Greg, just sent them a request. I have tested my air cylinder compensator for my thrusters both in the pressure test and a couple days ago to 100 feet. ? The set up seems to work with no water intrusion into the motors. ?I have the cylinder mounted below the motors witch causes a small air pocket in the hydraulic fitting on top of the motor. ?I am not worried about the small amount of air except the potential of oil being forced up past the air pocket. ?This makes me think the compensating cylinder should be above the motors. ?Then I wonder why does the compensating cylinder need oil in it at all. ?As long as the bore in the cylinder has enough volume so the piston is not bottomed out at max depth. ?I also have a small spring pushing the cylinder rod to create a small internal pressure above ambient. ?Is my logic flawed? ?it would be very convenient to eliminate the oil in the cylinder and would make the compensator ?faster to react to pressure change say in a fast ascent. ?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www..psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 10:53:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 08:53:16 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: t9tqd3qjMNnSvt9tsdDjIR References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> t9tqd3qjMNnSvt9tsdDjIR Message-ID: <55a0759d-50cd-45f6-ae14-1d30a1df020d@email.android.com> I would be wary of any compensation mechanism which is orientation dependent. If you were to become disabled due to a flooded tank or other situation that left you at an other than level attitude in the water, it may not function as intended, and you never want an emergency situation exascerbated by another equipment failure. I think compensation bias is most often created by springs, but if you use compensators with a sealed back side, you could also use a regulated air source which would provide constant non-variable bias, and also could be centrally sourced to all individual compensators. Sean On September 16, 2017 3:59:52 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hank, >just had another look at a free 150 page ex military document, >" Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems >For Deep Ocean Applications" ( had it printed & bound) couldn't see >any reference to using a weight for over-pressure. The system I drew is > >pretty typical. The volume of their compensators seemed to start at >500ml >& go up from there. An amount of leakage must be expected, or a reserve >volume >is maintained as a fail safe in case a leak starts. I remember a >remark from >either Carsten or Emile that they went to one compensator per motor >because >they couldn't isolate the thruster that was leaking when using one >compensator for all thrusters. >In the publication I think I can remember piston type systems not being > >popular because of the low pressures involved & the chances of them >sticking because of "crut" in the marine environment. However these >subs >were going to serious depths. >Cheers Alan > > > >Sent from my iPad > >> On 16/09/2017, at 9:07 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Alan, >> I don't think there is a need to worry about constant pressure >through the diaphragm stroke. You would fill the compensator with >fluid to the maximum level. The amount of travel would be equivalent >to the amount of air trapped in the system plus any expansion due to >temperature change. These two things would be so minimal that the >amount of travel would be so small the pressure from the spring would >stay quite constant. I can not see the entire drawing because I can >not move it over for some reason ;-( . Very clever Idea though using >a weight. You could take an air cylinder with a bit of extra length >and put a lead weight around the shaft inside the cylinder above the >piston, and you would be done. >> Hank >> >> On Friday, September 15, 2017, 10:27:25 PM MDT, Alan James via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank got me thinking about compensators again. >> I had made an initial design for a compensator, using a spring >> to produce over-pressure. This design is pretty standard in >operation, >> with lots of variations. >> One problem with the spring is that it might be producing 8 pounds of >> force at the start, but as the oil level goes down & the spring >extends, >> the over-pressure is reduced. Some of the springs I have seen are >> pretty large, possibly in an effort to keep the pressure range in a >narrower >> band. 4-5 psi seems a normal over-pressure. >> If I replaced the spring with a cylindrical 5lb weight, I would get >the same >> 4lb (weight in water) over-pressure throughout the range of the >diaphragms >> travel. >> Can anyone see a problem with this? Any comments. The lead may bounce > >> around a bit >> during transport but I don't think this would be a problem. >> My initial design is attached! >> Alan >> >> >> >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:37 PM >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation >> >> Hi All, >> Thank you Greg, just sent them a request. >> >> I have tested my air cylinder compensator for my thrusters both in >the pressure test and a couple days ago to 100 feet. The set up seems >to work with no water intrusion into the motors. I have the cylinder >mounted below the motors witch causes a small air pocket in the >hydraulic fitting on top of the motor. I am not worried about the >small amount of air except the potential of oil being forced up past >the air pocket. This makes me think the compensating cylinder should >be above the motors. Then I wonder why does the compensating cylinder >need oil in it at all. As long as the bore in the cylinder has enough >volume so the piston is not bottomed out at max depth. I also have a >small spring pushing the cylinder rod to create a small internal >pressure above ambient. Is my logic flawed? it would be very >convenient to eliminate the oil in the cylinder and would make the >compensator faster to react to pressure change say in a fast ascent. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 12:06:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 04:06:17 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: <55a0759d-50cd-45f6-ae14-1d30a1df020d@email.android.com> References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> <55a0759d-50cd-45f6-ae14-1d30a1df020d@email.android.com> Message-ID: <9FA2DBC6-E6E6-44BE-873C-659DB4D60AF0@yahoo.com> Thanks, yes if the sub were on an angle the weight could get lodged in position temporarily, or lose some of it's force on the rolling diaphragm. But in the worst case this would leave the oil compensated at ambient. I looked seriously at Hugh / Cliff's system with the regulated air supply giving an over-pressure on my oil filled thrusters, but you would probably need a dedicated air tank in case of a major leak, or more valves & through hulls to be able to turn the air off. Also the stainless regulator was more than what I wanted to pay. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 17/09/2017, at 2:53 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I would be wary of any compensation mechanism which is orientation dependent. If you were to become disabled due to a flooded tank or other situation that left you at an other than level attitude in the water, it may not function as intended, and you never want an emergency situation exascerbated by another equipment failure. > > I think compensation bias is most often created by springs, but if you use compensators with a sealed back side, you could also use a regulated air source which would provide constant non-variable bias, and also could be centrally sourced to all individual compensators. > > Sean > > >> On September 16, 2017 3:59:52 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hank, >> just had another look at a free 150 page ex military document, >> " Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems >> For Deep Ocean Applications" ( had it printed & bound) couldn't see >> any reference to using a weight for over-pressure. The system I drew is >> pretty typical. The volume of their compensators seemed to start at 500ml >> & go up from there. An amount of leakage must be expected, or a reserve volume >> is maintained as a fa! il safe in case a leak starts. I remember a remark from >> either Carsten or Emile that they went to one compensator per motor because >> they couldn't isolate the thruster that was leaking when using one >> compensator for all thrusters. >> In the publication I think I can remember piston type systems not being >> popular because of the low pressures involved & the chances of them >> sticking because of "crut" in the marine environment. However these subs >> were going to serious depths. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 16/09/2017, at 9:07 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> I don't think there is a need to worry about constant pressure through the diaphragm stroke. You would fill the compensator with fluid to the maximum level. The amount of travel would be equivalent to the amount of air trapped in the system plus any expansion due to temperature change. These two things would be so minimal that the amount of travel would be so small the pressure from the spring would stay quite constant. I can not see the entire drawing because I can not move it over for some reason ;-( . Very clever Idea though using a weight. You could take an air cylinder with a bit of extra length and put a lead weight around the shaft inside the cylinder above the piston, and you would be done. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Friday, September 15, 2017, 10:27:25 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hank got me thinking about compensators again. >>> I had made an initial design for a compensator, using a spring >>> to produce over-pressure. This design is pretty standard in operation, >>> with lots of variations. >>> One problem with the spring is that it might be producing 8 pounds of >>> force at the start, but as the oil level goes down & the spring extends, >>> the over-pressure is reduced. Some of the springs I have seen are >>> pretty large, possibly in an effort to keep the pressure range in a narrower >>> band. 4-5 psi seems a normal over-pressure. >>> If I replaced the spring with a cylindrical 5lb weight, I would get the same >>> 4lb (weight in water) over-pressure throughout the range of the diaphragms >>> travel. >>> Can anyone see a problem with this? Any comments. The lead may bounce >>> around a bit >>> during transport but I don't think this would be a problem. >>> My initial design is attached! >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:37 PM >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation >>> >>> Hi All, >>> Thank you Greg, just sent them a request. >>> >>> I have tested my air cylinder compensator for my thrusters both in the pressure test and a couple days ago to 100 feet. The set up seems to work with no water intrusion into the motors. I have the cylinder mounted below the motors witch causes a small air pocket in the hydraulic fitting on top of the motor. ! ;I am not worried about the small amount of air except the potential of oil being forced up past the air pocket. This makes me think the compensating cylinder should be above the motors. Then I wonder why does the compensating cylinder need oil in it at all. As long as the bore in the cylinder has enough volume so the piston is not bottomed out at max depth. I also have a small spring pushing the cylinder rod to create a small internal pressure above ambient. Is my logic flawed? it would be very convenient to eliminate the oil in the cylinder and would make the compensator faster to react to pressure change say in a fast ascent. >>> Hank >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www..psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 12:16:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 09:16:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > > !!!!!!! > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > >> Hi Roberto, >> >> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, >> and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make >> a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a >> project page or something so we can follow progress! >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head >>> selection, i found a seler in california and have >>> flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, >>> >>> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 12:50:35 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 16:50:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <880570698.3313156.1505580635090@mail.yahoo.com> Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 13:07:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 17:07:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: <799652774.751096.1505573229487@mail.yahoo.com> References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> <6D93872E-1764-48F1-B4A8-215E2E25A94A@yahoo.com> <2032635244.3217609.1505567919718@mail.yahoo.com> <799652774.751096.1505573229487@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1309653815.791002.1505581645309@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,I am only changing the location of the compensation cylinder to keep the air bubble at the top of the system. ?If it were out of orientation it would not effect anything. ?It is working fine as is, but I change oil in the motors often and moving it will make that process easier.Maybe now that it is working so good I will not look at the oil as often. ? In playing around with the system I was impressed by how much internal pressure the motors hold.Hank On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 8:51:28 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,?You have a point with the air cylinder, the piston does take a tiny bit of effort to move especially when the shaft seal is still in place. ?That is why I put a spring assist on it. ?A rubber membrane is probably better than a piston. ?But this is working, so I will continue with it, but I will move it above the motors and install an internal spring from a starter solenoid. ?The external spring is kinda ugly and just loos wrong ;-)Hank On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 7:19:00 AM MDT, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Many of the work class ROVs with oil compensation use the type of brake chambers seen on big trucks for compensation. Some of them use glycol instead of oil because its less damaging to the environment in the event of a leak. Greg From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation Hank,just had another look at a free 150 page ex military document," Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating SystemsFor Deep Ocean Applications" ( had it printed & bound) couldn't see?any reference to using a weight for over-pressure. The system I drew is?pretty typical.?The volume of their compensators seemed?to start at 500ml?& go up?from there. An amount of leakage must be expected, or a reserve volume?is maintained as a fail safe in case a leak starts. ?I remember a remark from?either Carsten or Emile that they went to one compensator per motor because?they couldn't isolate the thruster that was leaking when using one?compensator for all thrusters.In the publication I think I can remember piston type systems not being?popular because of the low pressures involved & the chances of themsticking because of "crut" in the marine environment. However these subswere going to serious depths.?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 16/09/2017, at 9:07 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I don't think there is a need to worry about constant pressure through the diaphragm stroke. ?You would fill the compensator with fluid to the maximum level. ?The amount of travel would be equivalent to the amount of air trapped in the system plus any expansion due to temperature change. These two things would be so minimal that the amount of travel would be so small the pressure ?from the spring would stay quite constant. ?I can not see the entire drawing because I can not move it over for some reason ;-( ?. ?Very clever Idea though using a weight. ?You could take an ?air cylinder with a bit of extra length and put a lead weight around the shaft inside the cylinder above the piston, and you would be done.Hank On Friday, September 15, 2017, 10:27:25 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank got me thinking about compensators again.I had made an initial design for a compensator, using a springto produce over-pressure. This design is pretty standard in operation,with lots of variations.One problem with the spring is that it might be producing 8 pounds offorce at the start, but as the oil level goes down & the spring extends,the over-pressure is reduced. Some of the springs I have seen arepretty large, possibly in an effort to keep the pressure range in a narrowerband. 4-5 psi seems a normal over-pressure.If I replaced the spring with a cylindrical 5lb weight, I would get the same4lb (weight in water) over-pressure throughout the range of the diaphragms travel. Can anyone see a problem with this? Any comments. The lead may bounce?around a bitduring transport but I don't think this would be a problem.?My initial design is attached!Alan From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:37 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation Hi All,Thank you Greg, just sent them a request. I have tested my air cylinder compensator for my thrusters both in the pressure test and a couple days ago to 100 feet. ? The set up seems to work with no water intrusion into the motors. ?I have the cylinder mounted below the motors witch causes a small air pocket in the hydraulic fitting on top of the motor. ?I am not worried about the small amount of air except the potential of oil being forced up past the air pocket. ?This makes me think the compensating cylinder should be above the motors. ?Then I wonder why does the compensating cylinder need oil in it at all. ?As long as the bore in the cylinder has enough volume so the piston is not bottomed out at max depth. ?I also have a small spring pushing the cylinder rod to create a small internal pressure above ambient. ?Is my logic flawed? ?it would be very convenient to eliminate the oil in the cylinder and would make the compensator ?faster to react to pressure change say in a fast ascent. ?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www..psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 13:12:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 17:12:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1056346594.803345.1505581939053@mail.yahoo.com> David,I think I paid around 600 dollars Canadian for my 36 inch hemi heads. ?Why are you not using hemi heads instead of dished? ?You can save weight and I bet that is important in your sub. ? Hank On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 10:17:08 AM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 13:14:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 17:14:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <880570698.3313156.1505580635090@mail.yahoo.com> References: <880570698.3313156.1505580635090@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1793768977.806764.1505582092265@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,The problem with calling it a vacuum tank is the sphericity. ?ASME is not as fussy as ABS for sphericity, and if you ask for the proper sphericity the cat is out of the bag. ?Hank On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 10:50:57 AM MDT, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 13:21:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 17:21:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buoyancy sphere References: <883613000.801031.1505582492265.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <883613000.801031.1505582492265@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,If anyone comes across a titanium sphere please let me know. ?I would look at using a titanium sphere for buoyancy.thanksHank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 13:31:37 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 10:31:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <880570698.3313156.1505580635090@mail.yahoo.com> References: <880570698.3313156.1505580635090@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Gregg, I'm sending a request for quote. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 9:50 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi David, > > In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator > to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came > machine welded with an ASME code stamp. > If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads > welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask > them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better > built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO > backing strips. > > Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > > Greg Cottrell > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > > Hi Alec, > I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to > place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the > 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code > Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part > of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm > thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two > matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why > not to have the flange? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped > to northern California from southern California. even though its only a > nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to > pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make > the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out > there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > > !!!!!!! > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > Hi Roberto, > > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and > code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a > flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a > project page or something so we can follow progress! > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head > selection, i found a seler in california and have > flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, > > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 14:20:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 12:20:39 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: <55a0759d-50cd-45f6-ae14-1d30a1df020d@email.android.com> References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> <55a0759d-50cd-45f6-ae14-1d30a1df020d@email.android.com> Message-ID: <4c33bc06-b162-f9a2-4f2c-1dec2cb03ab4@telus.net> I wasn't suggesting regulated air compensation, but rather fixed-volume oil compensation, with regulated air to provide the positive pressure on the compensator rather than a spring.? In that case, a failure of the air system just leaves you with compensation at ambient pressure. Sean On 2017-09-16 10:06, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Thanks, > yes if the sub were on an angle the weight could get lodged in position > temporarily, or lose some of it's force on the rolling diaphragm.? > But in the worst case this would leave the oil compensated at ambient. > I looked seriously at Hugh / Cliff's system with the regulated air supply > giving an over-pressure on my oil filled thrusters, but you would probably > need a dedicated air tank in case of a major leak, or more valves & > through > hulls to be able to turn the air off. Also the stainless regulator was > more than? > what I wanted to pay.? > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 14:29:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 12:29:22 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <880570698.3313156.1505580635090@mail.yahoo.com> References: <880570698.3313156.1505580635090@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Don't ask.? Draw.? Create a proper manufacturing drawing with the material and all of the required tolerances indicated.? Use GD&T where applicable.? Roundness, sphericity, etc. all specified on the drawing.? When you make a request for quote, it's as simple as "one part manufactured per supplied drawing # nnnnnn".? They quote against the drawing, and if they make a part that doesn't match the drawing, you don't pay for it.? Simple. Sean On 2017-09-16 11:14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Greg, > The problem with calling it a vacuum tank is the sphericity. ?ASME is > not as fussy as ABS for sphericity, and if you ask for the proper > sphericity the cat is out of the bag. ? > Hank > > On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 10:50:57 AM MDT, james cottrell via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi David, > > In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank > fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded > on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.? > If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads > welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) > ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run > and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine > welding. Specify NO backing strips. > > Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > > Greg Cottrell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 14:52:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 18:52:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: <4c33bc06-b162-f9a2-4f2c-1dec2cb03ab4@telus.net> References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> <55a0759d-50cd-45f6-ae14-1d30a1df020d@email.android.com> <4c33bc06-b162-f9a2-4f2c-1dec2cb03ab4@telus.net> Message-ID: <520065121.835280.1505587979895@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I would have to vote for the set up Cliff has unless you are planning to be able to jettison the motors. ?Oil compensating is so much easier to jettison. ?I suppose though you could have a HP tank jettison with the motor. ?Hank On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 12:21:01 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I wasn't suggesting regulated air compensation, but rather fixed-volume oil compensation, with regulated air to provide the positive pressure on the compensator rather than a spring.? In that case, a failure of the air system just leaves you with compensation at ambient pressure. Sean On 2017-09-16 10:06, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Thanks, > yes if the sub were on an angle the weight could get lodged in position > temporarily, or lose some of it's force on the rolling diaphragm.? > But in the worst case this would leave the oil compensated at ambient. > I looked seriously at Hugh / Cliff's system with the regulated air supply > giving an over-pressure on my oil filled thrusters, but you would probably > need a dedicated air tank in case of a major leak, or more valves & > through > hulls to be able to turn the air off. Also the stainless regulator was > more than? > what I wanted to pay.? > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 15:01:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 12:01:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <1056346594.803345.1505581939053@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1056346594.803345.1505581939053@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Surprising it appears the ellipse head is the same weight as a hemi. The displacement however is 7.068 cf / 452# of lift for the hemi, vs 189+# of lift for the ellipse. I suppose the extra volume would allow me to add more battery weight though. Hmmm Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 10:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > David, > I think I paid around 600 dollars Canadian for my 36 inch hemi heads. Why > are you not using hemi heads instead of dished? You can save weight and I > bet that is important in your sub. > > Hank > On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 10:17:08 AM MDT, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alec, > I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to > place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the > 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code > Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part > of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm > thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two > matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why > not to have the flange? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped > to northern California from southern California. even though its only a > nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to > pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make > the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out > there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > > !!!!!!! > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > Hi Roberto, > > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and > code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a > flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a > project page or something so we can follow progress! > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head > selection, i found a seler in california and have > flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, > > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 15:03:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 14:03:48 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <880570698.3313156.1505580635090@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <85A199D5-EA4D-45A8-99E3-939C3CC78E29@snyderemail.com> Smart. > On Sep 16, 2017, at 1:29 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Don't ask. Draw. Create a proper manufacturing drawing with the material and all of the required tolerances indicated. Use GD&T where applicable. Roundness, sphericity, etc. all specified on the drawing. When you make a request for quote, it's as simple as "one part manufactured per supplied drawing # nnnnnn". They quote against the drawing, and if they make a part that doesn't match the drawing, you don't pay for it. Simple. > > Sean > > >> On 2017-09-16 11:14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Greg, >> The problem with calling it a vacuum tank is the sphericity. ASME is not as fussy as ABS for sphericity, and if you ask for the proper sphericity the cat is out of the bag. >> Hank >> >> On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 10:50:57 AM MDT, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi David, >> >> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp. >> If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. >> >> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". >> >> Greg Cottrell > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 15:28:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:28:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <880570698.3313156.1505580635090@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <192617243.3323928.1505590096231@mail.yahoo.com> I drew and asked. From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Don't ask.? Draw.? Create a proper manufacturing drawing with the material and all of the required tolerances indicated.? Use GD&T where applicable.? Roundness, sphericity, etc. all specified on the drawing.? When you make a request for quote, it's as simple as "one part manufactured per supplied drawing # nnnnnn".? They quote against the drawing, and if they make a part that doesn't match the drawing, you don't pay for it.? Simple. Sean On 2017-09-16 11:14, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg, The problem with calling it a vacuum tank is the sphericity. ?ASME is not as fussy as ABS for sphericity, and if you ask for the proper sphericity the cat is out of the bag. ? Hank On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 10:50:57 AM MDT, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.? If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 15:30:54 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <1793768977.806764.1505582092265@mail.yahoo.com> References: <880570698.3313156.1505580635090@mail.yahoo.com> <1793768977.806764.1505582092265@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <869686926.3353544.1505590254103@mail.yahoo.com> I gave them the specs I wanted and they met them. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Greg,The problem with calling it a vacuum tank is the sphericity. ?ASME is not as fussy as ABS for sphericity, and if you ask for the proper sphericity the cat is out of the bag. ?Hank On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 10:50:57 AM MDT, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 15:27:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:27:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <1056346594.803345.1505581939053@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1303422241.850246.1505590024549@mail.yahoo.com> David,The hemi head can be thinner steel for the same depth rating also. ?Extra buoyancy is a real treat, better to add lead for stability than foam for lift.Hank On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 1:01:47 PM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Surprising it appears the ellipse head is the same weight as a hemi. The displacement however is? 7.068 cf / 452# of lift for the hemi, vs 189+# of lift for the ellipse.? I suppose the extra volume would allow me to add more battery weight though. Hmmm Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 10:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: David,I think I paid around 600 dollars Canadian for my 36 inch hemi heads.? Why are you not using hemi heads instead of dished?? You can save weight and I bet that is important in your sub. ? Hank On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 10:17:08 AM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 16:22:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 08:22:47 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: <520065121.835280.1505587979895@mail.yahoo.com> References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> <55a0759d-50cd-45f6-ae14-1d30a1df020d@email.android.com> <4c33bc06-b162-f9a2-4f2c-1dec2cb03ab4@telus.net> <520065121.835280.1505587979895@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I did a lot of initial experimentation with the system Cliff is using. I bought 4 relieving regulators & pulled them apart. Unless the regulator is fully stainless, you need to change out parts in the spindle section. At the time I was looking at $40- plastic "Festo" regulators, but couldn't find a suitable replacement spring. Cliff's little regulator was going to cost me about NZ $400 & I had wanted one for each thruster. The system Cliff is using is good in that if you have an oil compensated thruster the oil would just be replaced with air if it leaked out. He is using his on air compensated motors, so the volume going through the regulator, & being relieved, is huge compared with what would flow with a air over oil system. It's good to bounce this off people. I am thinking I would need a dedicated air tank for Cliff's system to be G.L. or ABS compliant. So more volume cost & hassle. If I had air over oil I could have one regulator & still see if one thruster was leaking more than another. If I go with the traditional rolling diaphragm & spring type compensator it will be easy for me to put in a low level switch. If I went with my weight instead of the spring, then I may add 25lb more weight than is necessary. Will ponder this some more! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 17/09/2017, at 6:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alan, > I would have to vote for the set up Cliff has unless you are planning to be able to jettison the motors. Oil compensating is so much easier to jettison. I suppose though you could have a HP tank jettison with the motor. > Hank > > On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 12:21:01 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I wasn't suggesting regulated air compensation, but rather fixed-volume > oil compensation, with regulated air to provide the positive pressure on > the compensator rather than a spring. In that case, a failure of the > air system just leaves you with compensation at ambient pressure. > > Sean > > > On 2017-09-16 10:06, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks, > > yes if the sub were on an angle the weight could get lodged in position > > temporarily, or lose some of it's force on the rolling diaphragm. > > But in the worst case this would leave the oil compensated at ambient. > > I looked seriously at Hugh / Cliff's system with the regulated air supply > > giving an over-pressure on my oil filled thrusters, but you would probably > > need a dedicated air tank in case of a major leak, or more valves & > > through > > hulls to be able to turn the air off. Also the stainless regulator was > > more than > > what I wanted to pay. > > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 16:47:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 20:47:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> <55a0759d-50cd-45f6-ae14-1d30a1df020d@email.android.com> <4c33bc06-b162-f9a2-4f2c-1dec2cb03ab4@telus.net> <520065121.835280.1505587979895@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1864242572.871511.1505594846987@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I would never connect an air compensating system to my main HP supply. ?That would be too risky for me. ?There are times when there is lots going on and a leak could go undetected. ?I am sure Cliff has bells and whistles to let him know. ?Hank On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 2:23:08 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I did a lot of initial experimentation with the system Cliff is using.I bought 4 relieving regulators & pulled them apart. Unless the?regulator is fully stainless, you need to change out parts in thespindle section. At the time I was looking at $40- plastic "Festo" regulators,but couldn't find a suitable replacement spring. Cliff's little regulatorwas going to cost me about NZ $400 & I had wanted one for eachthruster.?The system Cliff is using is good in that if you have an oil compensatedthruster the oil would just be replaced with air if it leaked out.He is using his on air compensated motors, so the volume going throughthe regulator, & being relieved, is huge compared with what would flowwith a air over oil system.It's good to bounce this off people. I am thinking I would need a dedicatedair tank for Cliff's system to be G.L. or ABS compliant. So more volume cost& hassle.If I had air over oil I could have one regulator & still see if one thruster was?leaking more than another. If I go with the traditional rolling diaphragm &?spring type compensator it will be easy for me to put in a low level switch.If I went with my weight instead of the spring, then I may add 25lb moreweight than is necessary.Will ponder this some more!Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/09/2017, at 6:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I would have to vote for the set up Cliff has unless you are planning to be able to jettison the motors. ?Oil compensating is so much easier to jettison. ?I suppose though you could have a HP tank jettison with the motor. ?Hank On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 12:21:01 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I wasn't suggesting regulated air compensation, but rather fixed-volume oil compensation, with regulated air to provide the positive pressure on the compensator rather than a spring.? In that case, a failure of the air system just leaves you with compensation at ambient pressure. Sean On 2017-09-16 10:06, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Thanks, > yes if the sub were on an angle the weight could get lodged in position > temporarily, or lose some of it's force on the rolling diaphragm.? > But in the worst case this would leave the oil compensated at ambient. > I looked seriously at Hugh / Cliff's system with the regulated air supply > giving an over-pressure on my oil filled thrusters, but you would probably > need a dedicated air tank in case of a major leak, or more valves & > through > hulls to be able to turn the air off. Also the stainless regulator was > more than? > what I wanted to pay.? > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 17:44:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 16:44:50 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> <55a0759d-50cd-45f6-ae14-1d30a1df020d@email.android.com> <4c33bc06-b162-f9a2-4f2c-1dec2cb03ab4@telus.net> <520065121.835280.1505587979895@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, I have been very happy with my simplified air compensation system for my thrusters. Yes retail price is high for these Parker/Watts R364 SS pressure reducing/relieving regulators but they come up on Ebay all the time. I purchased two of these regulators new on Ebay for less than $40. Also I am using a single regulator and manifolding 1/4" SS tubing to each of the thrusters rather than having dedicated regulators for each thruster in the spirit of KISS. Yes you use more air than an oil compensated system but since I abandoned my VBT and use thrusters for depth control, I don't use any where near the air I did when I had the VBT system and used air to blow VBT at depth. Having used both air and oil compensated system, I prefer an air system. Oil system are messy and air systems are clean. Cliff On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 3:22 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, > I did a lot of initial experimentation with the system Cliff is using. > I bought 4 relieving regulators & pulled them apart. Unless the > regulator is fully stainless, you need to change out parts in the > spindle section. At the time I was looking at $40- plastic "Festo" > regulators, > but couldn't find a suitable replacement spring. Cliff's little regulator > was going to cost me about NZ $400 & I had wanted one for each > thruster. > The system Cliff is using is good in that if you have an oil compensated > thruster the oil would just be replaced with air if it leaked out. > He is using his on air compensated motors, so the volume going through > the regulator, & being relieved, is huge compared with what would flow > with a air over oil system. > It's good to bounce this off people. I am thinking I would need a dedicated > air tank for Cliff's system to be G.L. or ABS compliant. So more volume > cost > & hassle. > If I had air over oil I could have one regulator & still see if one > thruster was > leaking more than another. If I go with the traditional rolling diaphragm > & > spring type compensator it will be easy for me to put in a low level > switch. > If I went with my weight instead of the spring, then I may add 25lb more > weight than is necessary. > Will ponder this some more! > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 17/09/2017, at 6:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Alan, > I would have to vote for the set up Cliff has unless you are planning to > be able to jettison the motors. Oil compensating is so much easier to > jettison. I suppose though you could have a HP tank jettison with the > motor. > Hank > > On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 12:21:01 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I wasn't suggesting regulated air compensation, but rather fixed-volume > oil compensation, with regulated air to provide the positive pressure on > the compensator rather than a spring. In that case, a failure of the > air system just leaves you with compensation at ambient pressure. > > Sean > > > On 2017-09-16 10:06, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks, > > yes if the sub were on an angle the weight could get lodged in position > > temporarily, or lose some of it's force on the rolling diaphragm. > > But in the worst case this would leave the oil compensated at ambient. > > I looked seriously at Hugh / Cliff's system with the regulated air supply > > giving an over-pressure on my oil filled thrusters, but you would > probably > > need a dedicated air tank in case of a major leak, or more valves & > > through > > hulls to be able to turn the air off. Also the stainless regulator was > > more than > > what I wanted to pay. > > > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 19:30:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <880570698.3313156.1505580635090@mail.yahoo.com> References: <880570698.3313156.1505580635090@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi David, Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. Best, Alec > On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi David, > > In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp. > If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. > > Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > > Greg Cottrell > > From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > > Hi Alec, > I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > > !!!!!!! > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > Hi Roberto, > > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head selection, i found a seler in california and have > flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, > > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 16 21:11:47 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 01:11:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust References: <1454055750.931577.1505610707026.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1454055750.931577.1505610707026@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,When I fill my scrubber with absorbent, I find it very dusty. ?I had to add a radial filter on my scrubber to capture this dust. ?What is the procedure to get rid of this dust? ?It would really suck to have to refill the scrubber inside the sub.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 17 01:13:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 17:13:36 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oil compensation In-Reply-To: References: <372050397.1609011.1505349106267.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <372050397.1609011.1505349106267@mail.yahoo.com> <1000992476.668679.1505552855061@mail.yahoo.com> <55a0759d-50cd-45f6-ae14-1d30a1df020d@email.android.com> <4c33bc06-b162-f9a2-4f2c-1dec2cb03ab4@telus.net> <520065121.835280.1505587979895@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9A8234C1-FEAE-4B15-9463-7252D74289FA@yahoo.com> Thanks Cliff, I am committed to filling my thrusters with oil because of the thinness of the windings in my small BLDC motors. They require the better heat transfer that you get with oil. Also the mechanical seals & bearings require oil. Thanks for the heads up on the cheap Ebay regulators, will keep an eye out. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 17/09/2017, at 9:44 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I have been very happy with my simplified air compensation system for my thrusters. Yes retail price is high for these Parker/Watts R364 SS pressure reducing/relieving regulators but they come up on Ebay all the time. I purchased two of these regulators new on Ebay for less than $40. Also I am using a single regulator and manifolding 1/4" SS tubing to each of the thrusters rather than having dedicated regulators for each thruster in the spirit of KISS. Yes you use more air than an oil compensated system but since I abandoned my VBT and use thrusters for depth control, I don't use any where near the air I did when I had the VBT system and used air to blow VBT at depth. Having used both air and oil compensated system, I prefer an air system. Oil system are messy and air systems are clean. > > Cliff > > > >> On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 3:22 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hank, >> I did a lot of initial experimentation with the system Cliff is using. >> I bought 4 relieving regulators & pulled them apart. Unless the >> regulator is fully stainless, you need to change out parts in the >> spindle section. At the time I was looking at $40- plastic "Festo" regulators, >> but couldn't find a suitable replacement spring. Cliff's little regulator >> was going to cost me about NZ $400 & I had wanted one for each >> thruster. >> The system Cliff is using is good in that if you have an oil compensated >> thruster the oil would just be replaced with air if it leaked out. >> He is using his on air compensated motors, so the volume going through >> the regulator, & being relieved, is huge compared with what would flow >> with a air over oil system. >> It's good to bounce this off people. I am thinking I would need a dedicated >> air tank for Cliff's system to be G.L. or ABS compliant. So more volume cost >> & hassle. >> If I had air over oil I could have one regulator & still see if one thruster was >> leaking more than another. If I go with the traditional rolling diaphragm & >> spring type compensator it will be easy for me to put in a low level switch. >> If I went with my weight instead of the spring, then I may add 25lb more >> weight than is necessary. >> Will ponder this some more! >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 17/09/2017, at 6:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Alan, >>> I would have to vote for the set up Cliff has unless you are planning to be able to jettison the motors. Oil compensating is so much easier to jettison. I suppose though you could have a HP tank jettison with the motor. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Saturday, September 16, 2017, 12:21:01 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> I wasn't suggesting regulated air compensation, but rather fixed-volume >>> oil compensation, with regulated air to provide the positive pressure on >>> the compensator rather than a spring. In that case, a failure of the >>> air system just leaves you with compensation at ambient pressure. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On 2017-09-16 10:06, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> > Thanks, >>> > yes if the sub were on an angle the weight could get lodged in position >>> > temporarily, or lose some of it's force on the rolling diaphragm. >>> > But in the worst case this would leave the oil compensated at ambient. >>> > I looked seriously at Hugh / Cliff's system with the regulated air supply >>> > giving an over-pressure on my oil filled thrusters, but you would probably >>> > need a dedicated air tank in case of a major leak, or more valves & >>> > through >>> > hulls to be able to turn the air off. Also the stainless regulator was >>> > more than >>> > what I wanted to pay. >>> >>> > Cheers Alan >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPad >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 17 18:53:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 15:53:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Message-ID: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 17 19:01:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Thomas Dijkshoorn via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 01:01:50 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Message-ID: <01071E21-7CDF-4F50-B900-77AE7ABFFD9C@me.com> Hi Hank, This issue comes up a lot with rebreather divers too. Simplest way of tackling this is by pouring the sorb outside into the filling canister from about 40cm high. Be sure to do this outside with a slight breeze or outside whilst running a fan trough the stream. Simple but effective! Thomas > > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 01:11:47 +0000 (UTC) > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust > Message-ID: <1454055750.931577.1505610707026 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi All,When I fill my scrubber with absorbent, I find it very dusty. ?I had to add a radial filter on my scrubber to capture this dust. ?What is the procedure to get rid of this dust? ?It would really suck to have to refill the scrubber inside the sub.Hank > -------------- next part ----------- From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 17 19:09:02 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 23:09:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) In-Reply-To: <01071E21-7CDF-4F50-B900-77AE7ABFFD9C@me.com> References: <01071E21-7CDF-4F50-B900-77AE7ABFFD9C@me.com> Message-ID: <1097082510.1258994.1505689742099@mail.yahoo.com> Thomas,Thank you! ?I like it! ?Hank On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 5:02:12 PM MDT, Thomas Dijkshoorn via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, This issue comes up a lot with rebreather divers too. Simplest way of tackling this is by pouring the sorb outside into the filling canister from about 40cm high. Be sure to do this outside with a slight breeze or outside whilst running a fan trough the stream. Simple but effective! Thomas > > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 01:11:47 +0000 (UTC) > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >? ? > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >? ? > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust > Message-ID: <1454055750.931577.1505610707026 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi All,When I fill my scrubber with absorbent, I find it very dusty. ?I had to add a radial filter on my scrubber to capture this dust. ?What is the procedure to get rid of this dust? ?It would really suck to have to refill the scrubber inside the sub.Hank > -------------- next part ----------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 17 19:12:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 23:12:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] rewinding motors References: <1743096732.1267779.1505689958798.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1743096732.1267779.1505689958798@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,After much research trying to find a rewinder (with no luck) for my motors that I wrecked by being stupid. ?I have decided to try and rewind them myself before I buy new replacements. ?There is lots of advice on the net, so I ordered 1,000 feet of magnet wire and will give it a go.HankHank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 17 20:47:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 18:47:28 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lost AUV Message-ID: <5b8fac58-93e9-442e-9e87-93e471cc3d86@email.android.com> http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/british-columbia/dfo-oceanic-glider-missing-in-action-1.4290748 Caught my attention because I worked aboard the John P. Tully many years ago. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 17 21:52:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 01:52:16 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass. Rick On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled . > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 > > Hi David, > > Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my > "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can > avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need > one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the > cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good > point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or > contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan > Lance. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi David, > > In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator > to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came > machine welded with an ASME code stamp. > If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads > welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask > them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better > built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO > backing strips. > > Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > > Greg Cottrell > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > > Hi Alec, > I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to > place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the > 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code > Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part > of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm > thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two > matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why > not to have the flange? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped > to northern California from southern California. even though its only a > nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to > pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make > the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out > there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > (707 > ) > 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > > !!!!!!! > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > Hi Roberto, > > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and > code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a > flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a > project page or something so we can follow progress! > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head > selection, i found a seler in california and have > flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, > > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 17 22:33:23 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 22:33:23 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the *inside* of the hull, plugging the air gap. 2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever. 3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! Best, Alec On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig > will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the > hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your > first pass. > Rick > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled . >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Private via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 >> >> Hi David, >> >> Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my >> "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can >> avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need >> one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the >> cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good >> point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or >> contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan >> Lance. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi David, >> >> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank >> fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. >> Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp. >> If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads >> welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask >> them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better >> built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO >> backing strips. >> >> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". >> >> Greg Cottrell >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> >> Hi Alec, >> I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California >> to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the >> 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code >> Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part >> of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm >> thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two >> matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why >> not to have the flange? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped >> to northern California from southern California. even though its only a >> nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to >> pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make >> the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out >> there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> >> (707 >> ) >> 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not >> "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". >> >> !!!!!!! >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >> >> Hi Roberto, >> >> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, >> and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make >> a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a >> project page or something so we can follow progress! >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head >> selection, i found a seler in california and have >> flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, >> >> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 18 02:46:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 18:46:29 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] lost AUV In-Reply-To: <5b8fac58-93e9-442e-9e87-93e471cc3d86@email.android.com> References: <5b8fac58-93e9-442e-9e87-93e471cc3d86@email.android.com> Message-ID: Sean, one of their possible reasons they give for it's disappearance is "animal". That would be a bite sized lure for a Great White! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/09/2017, at 12:47 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/british-columbia/dfo-oceanic-glider-missing-in-action-1.4290748 > > Caught my attention because I worked aboard the John P. Tully many years ago. > > Sean > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 18 02:47:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 18:47:55 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] rewinding motors In-Reply-To: <1743096732.1267779.1505689958798@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1743096732.1267779.1505689958798.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1743096732.1267779.1505689958798@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, all the best with the winding. You will be that much more experienced by the end of it. Let us know how it goes! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/09/2017, at 11:12 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > After much research trying to find a rewinder (with no luck) for my motors that I wrecked by being stupid. I have decided to try and rewind them myself before I buy new replacements. There is lots of advice on the net, so I ordered 1,000 feet of magnet wire and will give it a go. > Hank > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 18 04:39:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:39:19 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) In-Reply-To: <01071E21-7CDF-4F50-B900-77AE7ABFFD9C@me.com> References: <01071E21-7CDF-4F50-B900-77AE7ABFFD9C@me.com> Message-ID: Do people have a filter on the scrubber outlet? I find after an hour I have a sore throat. Assuming it's dust. Not good. Thanks, James On Monday, 18 September 2017, Thomas Dijkshoorn via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Hank, > > This issue comes up a lot with rebreather divers too. Simplest way of > tackling this is by pouring the sorb outside into the filling canister from > about 40cm high. Be sure to do this outside with a slight breeze or outside > whilst running a fan trough the stream. > > Simple but effective! > > Thomas > > > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 01:11:47 +0000 (UTC) > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust > > Message-ID: <1454055750.931577.1505610707026 at mail.yahoo.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Hi All,When I fill my scrubber with absorbent, I find it very dusty. ?I > had to add a radial filter on my scrubber to capture this dust. ?What is > the procedure to get rid of this dust? ?It would really suck to have to > refill the scrubber inside the sub.Hank > > -------------- next part ----------- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 18 05:47:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 11:47:28 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) In-Reply-To: References: <01071E21-7CDF-4F50-B900-77AE7ABFFD9C@me.com> Message-ID: <11ca01d33063$23a1faf0$6ae5f0d0$@nl> You use sofnolime James? Not really irritating compared to Lithium hydroxide. I fill the way Thomas mentioned ,don?t use a filter and have no issues with sore throat. Thomas are you from the Netherlands? (cos the name) Regards, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: maandag 18 september 2017 10:39 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Do people have a filter on the scrubber outlet? I find after an hour I have a sore throat. Assuming it's dust. Not good. Thanks, James On Monday, 18 September 2017, Thomas Dijkshoorn via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, This issue comes up a lot with rebreather divers too. Simplest way of tackling this is by pouring the sorb outside into the filling canister from about 40cm high. Be sure to do this outside with a slight breeze or outside whilst running a fan trough the stream. Simple but effective! Thomas > > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 01:11:47 +0000 (UTC) > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust > Message-ID: <1454055750.931577.1505610707026 at mail.yahoo.com > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi All,When I fill my scrubber with absorbent, I find it very dusty. ?I had to add a radial filter on my scrubber to capture this dust. ?What is the procedure to get rid of this dust? ?It would really suck to have to refill the scrubber inside the sub.Hank > -------------- next part ----------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 18 07:56:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 11:56:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do. ?When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides. ?Same difference really. ?The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! Best, Alec? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Private via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 Hi David, Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. Best, Alec On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 18 09:34:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:34:33 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: tukOdBTEOuaAMtukPdrsB1 References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> tukOdBTEOuaAMtukPdrsB1 Message-ID: <567dfb50-ca95-463a-a5e6-e1dd50ef5aa8@email.android.com> My preference has always been a double vee groove (so double bevel on the mating faces of both parts), such that the root pass occurs at the mid diameter. For the same open angle of weld preparation, a double vee will require significantly less weld deposition than will a bevel from inside or outside only, so you are minimizing the total heat input, and weld stress / shrinkage is somewhat evenly distributed since you are applying beads evenly to both sides. The only time I wouldn't bother with a double vee is if the shell thickness was so thin that the additional weld deposition is a non issue. As with any CJP weld, prep, clean, set the gap, lay a strong root pass that appropriately fills the gap with good fusion to both sides, then back gouge the root (grind or air arc) from the opposite side to profile and expose the interface to verify fusion, and begin laying covering passes, alternating both inside / outside and staggering starts at different circumferential locations so that you don't dump too much heat into one place. Sean On September 18, 2017 5:56:43 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the >inside then grind outside as you do. ?When your welding such light >material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove >as if you started with a bevel on both sides. ?Same difference really. >?The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce >because they are professional welders.Hank >On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp >end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air >gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. >1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the >air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root >pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean >shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible >discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up >layers until meeting the plate thickness. >Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The >method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no >problem. >Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! > > >Best, >Alec? > >On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig >will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of >the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching >your first pass.Rick? >On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian > >--- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > >From: Private via Personal_Submersibles org> >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 > >Hi David, >Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was >my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you >can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You >only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the >end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg >has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be >welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an >awful lot of help from Dan Lance. >Best, >Alec >On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > >Hi David, >In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank >fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded >on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design >will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If >your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld >one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. >It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO >backing strips. >Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". >Greg Cottrell > >From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > >Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in >California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will >be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 >Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" >od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD >first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best >welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full >pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is >$480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern >California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my >time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course >its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as >support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers >would be appreciated. > >Best Regards, >David Colombo > >804 College Ave >Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >(707) 536-1424 >www.SeaQuestor.com > > >On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not >"un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". >!!!!!!! >On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth >wrote: > >Hi Roberto, >I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, >and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to >make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do >set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! > >Best, >Alec >On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head >selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled >,code, non code, >Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >______________________________ _________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > >______________________________ _________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > >______________________________ _________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > >______________________________ _________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > >______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles >mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. >orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ >submersibles______________________________ _________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > >______________________________ _________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 18 12:13:28 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Private via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 12:13:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed. > On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, > I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do. When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides. Same difference really. The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders. > Hank > > On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. > > 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap. > 2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever. > 3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. > > Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. > > Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! > > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass. > Rick > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled . > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 > > Hi David, > > Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi David, > > In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp. > If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. > > Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > > Greg Cottrell > > From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > > Hi Alec, > I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > > !!!!!!! > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > Hi Roberto, > > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head selection, i found a seler in california and have > flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, > > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 18 13:13:39 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 17:13:39 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think the best way to go would be to TIG the first pass from the inside as Alec mentioned but when you then go to the outside to verify that you have clean metal on both sides of your first pass, I would use a 1/8" thick abrasive blade as you will remove less metal as they are more precise. I would then use TIG on your first outter pass then first stick pass should be a 3/32" rod to fill and cap as that size rod is more user friendly especially if your not an experienced welder and you are less likely to get undercut on your sides and that is usually where you are going to get slag inclusion. I always use a 3/16" air gap when welding pipe when I don't have the luxury of welding from the inside as you will be amazed at how fast that gap will close up on you from the heat which will prevent free movement of your filler rod which you have to have. Weather it's your first pass or the cap, always alternate to opposite sides of the pipe/hull to minimize distortion. Rick On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:14 AM Private via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on > a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard > from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs > like full penetration where quality trumps speed. > > On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then > grind outside as you do. When your welding such light material, the > external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started > with a bevel on both sides. Same difference really. The big difference is > guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are > professional welders. > Hank > > On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end > of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of > about 1/8" is left between the two parts. > > 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the *inside* of the hull, plugging the > air gap. > 2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a > 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped > channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever. > 3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate > thickness. > > Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method > I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. > > Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! > > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig > will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the > hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your > first pass. > Rick > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled . > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 > > Hi David, > > Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my > "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can > avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need > one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the > cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good > point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or > contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan > Lance. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi David, > > In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator > to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came > machine welded with an ASME code stamp. > If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads > welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask > them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better > built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO > backing strips. > > Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > > Greg Cottrell > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > > Hi Alec, > I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to > place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the > 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code > Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part > of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm > thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two > matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why > not to have the flange? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped > to northern California from southern California. even though its only a > nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to > pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make > the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out > there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > (707 > ) > 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > > !!!!!!! > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > Hi Roberto, > > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and > code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a > flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a > project page or something so we can follow progress! > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head > selection, i found a seler in california and have > flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, > > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 18 14:57:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 18:57:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1635302371.1875377.1505761072611@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd. ?I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad. ?You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that. ?I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed. On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do. ?When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides. ?Same difference really. ?The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! Best, Alec? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Private via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 Hi David, Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. Best, Alec On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 18 15:37:24 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 20:37:24 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) In-Reply-To: <11ca01d33063$23a1faf0$6ae5f0d0$@nl> References: <01071E21-7CDF-4F50-B900-77AE7ABFFD9C@me.com> <11ca01d33063$23a1faf0$6ae5f0d0$@nl> Message-ID: Hi Emile Yes, I use Sofnolime. Seems to work well, but I do get a sore throat and chest cough after 1 hour in sub. However, I am very sensitive to allergy. Might just be me. I am testing a filter on the outlet. Just a normal foam air filter like you would have on a carburettor inlet. Might be better. If not I will try a finer filter but I don't want to restrict the airflow as I have co2 holding good. Regards James On 18/09/2017, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > You use sofnolime James? Not really irritating compared to Lithium > hydroxide. > > I fill the way Thomas mentioned ,don?t use a filter and have no issues with > sore throat. > > > > Thomas are you from the Netherlands? (cos the name) > > > > Regards, Emile > > > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > Namens James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: maandag 18 september 2017 10:39 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust (hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles) > > > > Do people have a filter on the scrubber outlet? I find after an hour I have > a sore throat. Assuming it's dust. Not good. > > Thanks, > > James > > On Monday, 18 September 2017, Thomas Dijkshoorn via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi Hank, > > This issue comes up a lot with rebreather divers too. Simplest way of > tackling this is by pouring the sorb outside into the filling canister from > about 40cm high. Be sure to do this outside with a slight breeze or outside > whilst running a fan trough the stream. > > Simple but effective! > > Thomas >> >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 01:11:47 +0000 (UTC) >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> > >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] absorbent dust >> Message-ID: <1454055750.931577.1505610707026 at mail.yahoo.com >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi All,When I fill my scrubber with absorbent, I find it very dusty. ?I >> had to add a radial filter on my scrubber to capture this dust. ?What is >> the procedure to get rid of this dust? ?It would really suck to have to >> refill the scrubber inside the sub.Hank >> -------------- next part ----------- > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 18 15:46:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 12:46:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Message-ID: <20170918124618.3E07B833@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Sep 18 15:55:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 12:55:21 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Message-ID: <20170918125521.3E07BB19@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 06:25:38 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 11:25:38 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] How to wire a plug? Message-ID: Yes, I am going to ask how to wire a plug.... Maybe some electrical guru can assist in this issue. Here in Guernsey, we get a lot of stuff from mainland Europe. Which come with a 2 pin euro plug, that doesn't fit with our UK sockets. So you just chop the plug off and fit a 3 pin UK one. Done it hundreds of times. Standard thing. I bought this bandsaw from Austria. Chopped the plug off and wired up a UK one. Doesn't work. Either just doesn't switch on or trips the main breaker. I thought maybe it was wired reversed as with the euro plugs, you can put them in either way. No different. With the euro plug, the earth is not connected if you force it into the socket like your not supposed to do but everyone does. So I thought maybe there was a fault with the machine and with the earth connected on the UK plug, it was tripping the breaker. Tested with no earth. No different. Basically it will ONLY work with the Euro plug it came with forced into the uk wall socket. Wall socket tested with other appliances, all ok. I asked the guy in the workshop next to me who is a professional electrician. After he had mocked me for not being able to wire a plug, he looked at it and was utterly baffled. See pics. Ignore the temporary wiring bodge, I was putting it back together temporarily to prove a point. I was super careful. Any ideas anyone? Seems really odd. I Regards James -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_5613.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 36523 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_5615.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 55652 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 06:40:12 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 10:40:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] How to wire a plug? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1774592574.2294916.1505817612382@mail.yahoo.com> James,That is weird! ?is there a chance that the Euro plug has an internal feature that you can not see, that may be moulded into plug. ?I would cut it open and see if there is something in there. ?Maybe a resistor or something. ?Trying with the earth disconnected should have done it. ?That means the only difference is in the plug itself.Hank On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:25:58 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, I am going to ask how to wire a plug.... Maybe some electrical guru can assist in this issue. Here in Guernsey, we get a lot of stuff from mainland Europe.? Which come with a 2 pin euro plug, that doesn't fit with our UK sockets.? So you just chop the plug off and fit a 3 pin UK one.? Done it hundreds of times.? Standard thing. I bought this bandsaw from Austria.? Chopped the plug off and wired up a UK one.? Doesn't work.? Either just doesn't switch on or trips the main breaker. I thought maybe it was wired reversed as with the euro plugs, you can put them in either way.? No different. With the euro plug, the earth is not connected if you force it into the socket like your not supposed to do but everyone does.? So I thought maybe there was a fault with the machine and with the earth connected on the UK plug, it was tripping the breaker.? Tested with no earth.? No different. Basically it will ONLY work with the Euro plug it came with forced into the uk wall socket. Wall socket tested with other appliances, all ok. I asked the guy in the workshop next to me who is a professional electrician.? After he had mocked me for not being able to wire a plug, he looked at it and was utterly baffled. See pics.? Ignore the temporary wiring bodge, I was putting it back together temporarily to prove a point.? I was super careful. Any ideas anyone?? Seems really odd.? I Regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 06:51:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 06:51:40 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <1635302371.1875377.1505761072611@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> <1635302371.1875377.1505761072611@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds per square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation leading to a false sense of security . Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " . Dan Lance On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd. I hear all > the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" or " I like to crank er > up" LOL. > The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent > metal into the filler metal, and that is bad. You need sufficient > penetration and I have no problem achieving that. I mig welded Elementary > 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi. > Hank > > On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on > a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard > from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs > like full penetration where quality trumps speed. > > On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then > grind outside as you do. When your welding such light material, the > external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started > with a bevel on both sides. Same difference really. The big difference is > guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are > professional welders. > Hank > > On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end > of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of > about 1/8" is left between the two parts. > > 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the *inside* of the hull, plugging the > air gap. > 2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a > 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped > channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever. > 3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate > thickness. > > Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method > I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. > > Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! > > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig > will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the > hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your > first pass. > Rick > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled . > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 > > Hi David, > > Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my > "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can > avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need > one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the > cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good > point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or > contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan > Lance. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi David, > > In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator > to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came > machine welded with an ASME code stamp. > If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads > welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask > them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better > built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO > backing strips. > > Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > > Greg Cottrell > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > > Hi Alec, > I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to > place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the > 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code > Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part > of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm > thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two > matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why > not to have the flange? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped > to northern California from southern California. even though its only a > nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to > pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make > the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out > there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > (707 > ) > 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > > !!!!!!! > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > Hi Roberto, > > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and > code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a > flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a > project page or something so we can follow progress! > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head > selection, i found a seler in california and have > flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, > > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 06:50:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 10:50:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] charcoal filter References: <138345270.2287525.1505818258204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <138345270.2287525.1505818258204@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,A while back we were talking about charcoal filtering the sub environment. ?Sean suggested a charcoal filter and it has been on my mind. ?I think it is a great idea. ?I was thinking about putting the charcoal filter on the scrubber intake because my rebreather scrubber is a sealed can. ?The other scrubber would need to have the filter on the discharge end. ?Has anyone done this.This has come to mind after Scott brought up the smoke issue. ?Is there a reason I should not put one at the intake of my rebreather scrubber. ?It should help with toxic smoke since it is the scrubber ?I can breath through manually.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 07:43:44 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 11:43:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> <1635302371.1875377.1505761072611@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <280007908.2312122.1505821424653@mail.yahoo.com> Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the expert and we should take your advice. ?No question about it, i would not want to encourage anything else.Hank On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds per square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " .Dan Lance On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed. On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! Best, Alec? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Private via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 Hi David, Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. Best, Alec On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 08:46:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 06:46:22 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: uG8UdOmXFNnSvuG8WdTNIT References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> <1635302371.1875377.1505761072611@mail.yahoo.com> uG8UdOmXFNnSvuG8WdTNIT Message-ID: Dan - I was under the impression that the issue with GMAW (MIG) was the risk of porosity due to ineffective purge (both purging the opposite side of the joint on the root pass, and back purging the puddle while filling), and that it is perfectly acceptable if 100% gas purge is ensured and low hydrogen electrodes are used? The process is used in lots of pressure vessel manufacturing, but perhaps the pros have better control over this? I like the idea of a GTAW (TIG) root pass. Doing the filling passes with SMAW (stick) seems tedious, particularly if there is a lot of filling to be done, but your message is making me think twice. Is the major problem the embrittlement, or the porosity? Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 09:14:01 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 09:14:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] How to wire a plug? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmm... sounds silly but maybe plug it in using a travel adapter? :) On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 6:25 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Yes, I am going to ask how to wire a plug.... > > Maybe some electrical guru can assist in this issue. > > Here in Guernsey, we get a lot of stuff from mainland Europe. Which > come with a 2 pin euro plug, that doesn't fit with our UK sockets. So > you just chop the plug off and fit a 3 pin UK one. Done it hundreds > of times. Standard thing. > > I bought this bandsaw from Austria. Chopped the plug off and wired up > a UK one. Doesn't work. Either just doesn't switch on or trips the > main breaker. > > I thought maybe it was wired reversed as with the euro plugs, you can > put them in either way. No different. > > With the euro plug, the earth is not connected if you force it into > the socket like your not supposed to do but everyone does. So I > thought maybe there was a fault with the machine and with the earth > connected on the UK plug, it was tripping the breaker. Tested with no > earth. No different. > > Basically it will ONLY work with the Euro plug it came with forced > into the uk wall socket. > > Wall socket tested with other appliances, all ok. > > I asked the guy in the workshop next to me who is a professional > electrician. After he had mocked me for not being able to wire a > plug, he looked at it and was utterly baffled. > > See pics. Ignore the temporary wiring bodge, I was putting it back > together temporarily to prove a point. I was super careful. > > Any ideas anyone? Seems really odd. I > > Regards > James > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 11:56:54 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 11:56:54 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> <1635302371.1875377.1505761072611@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sean, GMAW commonly is utilised in two primary modes , " Short Arc " and " Spray Arc " . "Short Arc" equals lower amperage versus "Spray Arc" equals higher amperage . The amperage output and duty cycle of the welding machine determines what mode you would be capable of achieving . Lower amperage , lower duty cycle power sources will usually only run effectively in the "Short Arc" mode , some units in this class might be able to exhibit SA characteristics but only for a short period of time due to their limited duty cycle ( 10% - 20% ) at the higher amperage range necessary . Duty cycle is usually delineated as how many minutes in a 10 minute window the machine can maintain a rated amperage . "Short Arc" power sources are most commonly found in the consumer to light commercial markets . The primary determining factor being purchase price (a few hundred dollars to maybe a couple of thousand for a multi purpose unit which could include smaw, gtaw and gmaw capabilities. "Short Arc" is fine for doing sheet metal work , custom car or custom motorcycle work in light gauge metals . The use of GMAW in industry would be primarily focused on the " Spray Arc mode " . High amperages , much higher duty cycles ( at the least 60% to the prefered 100% ) , high deposition rates , and very robust weld integrity on thicker metals . Of course all of this comes at a cost . I haven't checked prices lately but the components I purchased to get in the "spray arc " mode cost me somewhere around 6k . This is definitely the low end of the price range in this category of welding , the sky is the limit when it comes to equipping an industrial facility . When I build another submarine I will weld the root and the hot pass with GTAW ( TIG) and run the filler and cap passes with FCAW-G ( flux core with a cover gas) also commonly known as " dual shield " In spray arc mode of course . I have complete confidence in this process . The alternative of course could be GTAW(TIG) root and hot pass and SMAW (stick) weld it out OR if a person has a lot of time on their hands they could GTAW(TIG) weld the joints completely out , root , hot , filler passes and cap . To answer your question about which is the biggest concern , embrittlement or porosity . If you are welding with GMAW in the "short arc" mode then embrittlement is the issue . If you are welding with GMAW in the "spray arc " mode then porosity and blow thru on the root pass would probably be a problem unless you did the root and hot pass first with TIG . This is just a cursory overview because Industry has a lot of options at their disposal . Like using the Submerged Arc process with no gap for the root pass and getting 100% penetration running at 600 to 1000 amps . Not something someone can do at home in their garage ! Getting porosity on the root pass while welding with GTAW ( TIG) on carbon steel is usually not a problem , Of course stainless steel is a completely different animal . Unless you purge with inert gas oxidation and porosity is standard procedure . Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Dan - I was under the impression that the issue with GMAW (MIG) was the > risk of porosity due to ineffective purge (both purging the opposite side > of the joint on the root pass, and back purging the puddle while filling), > and that it is perfectly acceptable if 100% gas purge is ensured and low > hydrogen electrodes are used? The process is used in lots of pressure > vessel manufacturing, but perhaps the pros have better control over this? > > I like the idea of a GTAW (TIG) root pass. Doing the filling passes with > SMAW (stick) seems tedious, particularly if there is a lot of filling to be > done, but your message is making me think twice. Is the major problem the > embrittlement, or the porosity? > > Sean > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 12:07:07 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 12:07:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <280007908.2312122.1505821424653@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> <1635302371.1875377.1505761072611@mail.yahoo.com> <280007908.2312122.1505821424653@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I do not in any manner consider myself an expert . I am just relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday ! :) Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Dan, > I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire > into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the > expert and we should take your advice. No question about it, i would not > want to encourage anything else. > Hank > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for > the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short > Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to > consult a licensed qualified , experienced Welding Engineer before doing > so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc > ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when > used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and > ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building > pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent > tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern > latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper > 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well > documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of > hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds per square inch. Chances are very > good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically > what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation > leading to a false sense of security . Like I mentioned earlier consult > a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice > before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or > hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " > what you don't know can hurt you " . > Dan Lance > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd. I hear all > the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" or " I like to crank er > up" LOL. > The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent > metal into the filler metal, and that is bad. You need sufficient > penetration and I have no problem achieving that. I mig welded Elementary > 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi. > Hank > > On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on > a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard > from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs > like full penetration where quality trumps speed. > > On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alec, > I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then > grind outside as you do. When your welding such light material, the > external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started > with a bevel on both sides. Same difference really. The big difference is > guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are > professional welders. > Hank > > On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end > of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of > about 1/8" is left between the two parts. > > 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the *inside* of the hull, plugging the > air gap. > 2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a > 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped > channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever. > 3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate > thickness. > > Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method > I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. > > Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! > > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig > will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the > hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your > first pass. > Rick > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled . > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 > > Hi David, > > Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my > "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can > avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need > one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the > cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good > point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or > contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan > Lance. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi David, > > In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator > to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came > machine welded with an ASME code stamp. > If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads > welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask > them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better > built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO > backing strips. > > Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > > Greg Cottrell > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > > Hi Alec, > I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to > place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the > 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code > Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part > of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm > thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two > matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why > not to have the flange? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped > to northern California from southern California. even though its only a > nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to > pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make > the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out > there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > (707 > ) > 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > > !!!!!!! > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > Hi Roberto, > > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and > code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a > flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a > project page or something so we can follow progress! > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head > selection, i found a seler in california and have > flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, > > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 13:00:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:00:15 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> <1635302371.1875377.1505761072611@mail.yahoo.com> <280007908.2312122.1505821424653@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of penetration. The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still looked good. This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred. Rick On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, > I do not in any manner consider myself an expert . I am just relying on > what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a > person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday > ! :) > Dan > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Dan, >> I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire >> into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the >> expert and we should take your advice. No question about it, i would not >> want to encourage anything else. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for >> the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short >> Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to >> consult a licensed qualified , experienced Welding Engineer before doing >> so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc >> ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when >> used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and >> ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building >> pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent >> tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern >> latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper >> 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well >> documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of >> hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds per square inch. Chances are very >> good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically >> what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation >> leading to a false sense of security . Like I mentioned earlier consult >> a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice >> before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or >> hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " >> what you don't know can hurt you " . >> Dan Lance >> >> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alec, >> Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd. I hear all >> the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" or " I like to crank er >> up" LOL. >> The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent >> metal into the filler metal, and that is bad. You need sufficient >> penetration and I have no problem achieving that. I mig welded Elementary >> 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi. >> Hank >> >> On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> >> Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on >> a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard >> from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs >> like full penetration where quality trumps speed. >> >> On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Alec, >> I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then >> grind outside as you do. When your welding such light material, the >> external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started >> with a bevel on both sides. Same difference really. The big difference is >> guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are >> professional welders. >> Hank >> >> On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> >> Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp >> end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap >> of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. >> >> 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the *inside* of the hull, plugging the >> air gap. >> 2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a >> 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped >> channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever. >> 3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate >> thickness. >> >> Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The >> method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. >> >> Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig >> will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the >> hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your >> first pass. >> Rick >> >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled . >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org >> wrote: >> >> From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > > >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > org > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 >> >> Hi David, >> >> Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my >> "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can >> avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need >> one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the >> cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good >> point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or >> contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan >> Lance. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Hi David, >> >> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank >> fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. >> Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp. >> If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads >> welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask >> them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better >> built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO >> backing strips. >> >> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". >> >> Greg Cottrell >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > org > >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > org > >> *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> >> Hi Alec, >> I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California >> to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the >> 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code >> Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part >> of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm >> thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two >> matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why >> not to have the flange? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped >> to northern California from southern California. even though its only a >> nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to >> pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make >> the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out >> there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> >> (707 >> ) >> 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not >> "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". >> >> !!!!!!! >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >> >> Hi Roberto, >> >> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, >> and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make >> a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a >> project page or something so we can follow progress! >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head >> selection, i found a seler in california and have >> flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, >> >> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ >> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 13:23:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> <1635302371.1875377.1505761072611@mail.yahoo.com> <280007908.2312122.1505821424653@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.1505841822312@mail.yahoo.com> Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it ;-)Hank On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday ! ?:)Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would not want to encourage anything else.Hank On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds per square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " .Dan Lance On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed. On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! Best, Alec? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Private via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 Hi David, Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. Best, Alec On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 13:36:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 19:36:43 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] charcoal filter In-Reply-To: <138345270.2287525.1505818258204@mail.yahoo.com> References: <138345270.2287525.1505818258204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <138345270.2287525.1505818258204@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank I have installed one on the intake hose of the scrubber. With a dedicated cannister. It works well for odors but don t think it would be any good for smoke and all its possible harmful contents like carbon monoxide. Regards Antoine On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > A while back we were talking about charcoal filtering the sub > environment. Sean suggested a charcoal filter and it has been on my mind. > I think it is a great idea. I was thinking about putting the charcoal > filter on the scrubber intake because my rebreather scrubber is a sealed > can. The other scrubber would need to have the filter on the discharge > end. > Has anyone done this. > This has come to mind after Scott brought up the smoke issue. Is there a > reason I should not put one at the intake of my rebreather scrubber. It > should help with toxic smoke since it is the scrubber I can breath through > manually. > Hank > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 13:43:18 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:43:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] charcoal filter In-Reply-To: References: <138345270.2287525.1505818258204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <138345270.2287525.1505818258204@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <730954484.2547499.1505842998118@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Antoine,Did you have to up size the fan or are you on lung power only? ? I will put a charcoal filter on just because it seems practical and it is pretty cheap.What did you use for the filter?Hank On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:37:02 AM MDT, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi HankI have installed one on the intake hose of the scrubber. With a dedicated cannister. It works well for odors but don t think it would be any?good for smoke and all its possible harmful contents like carbon monoxide.RegardsAntoine? On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,A while back we were talking about charcoal filtering the sub environment.? Sean suggested a charcoal filter and it has been on my mind.? I think it is a great idea.? I was thinking about putting the charcoal filter on the scrubber intake because my rebreather scrubber is a sealed can.? The other scrubber would need to have the filter on the discharge end. ?Has anyone done this.This has come to mind after Scott brought up the smoke issue.? Is there a reason I should not put one at the intake of my rebreather scrubber.? It should help with toxic smoke since it is the scrubber ?I can breath through manually.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 13:57:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 11:57:05 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: uKvQdZOeTOUUcuKvRdxYwD References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> <1635302371.1875377.1505761072611@mail.yahoo.com> uKvQdZOeTOUUcuKvRdxYwD Message-ID: <93929ca6-edcb-41e7-ae40-48d9bbb8d920@email.android.com> Makes sense. When I specify welds on drawings, I presume that the fabricator is not equipment limited. In the lab here at C-FER we have industrial feeds for both 600/347 VAC and 208/120 VAC, and equipment to match. Consumer equipment obviously imposes some constraints. Sean On September 19, 2017 9:56:54 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean, >GMAW commonly is utilised in two primary modes , " Short Arc " and " >Spray >Arc " . "Short Arc" equals lower amperage versus "Spray Arc" equals >higher >amperage . The amperage output and duty cycle of the welding machine >determines what mode you would be capable of achieving . Lower amperage >, >lower duty cycle power sources will usually only run effectively in the >"Short Arc" mode , some units in this class might be able to exhibit SA >characteristics but only for a short period of time due to their >limited >duty cycle ( 10% - 20% ) at the higher amperage range necessary . Duty >cycle is usually delineated as how many minutes in a 10 minute window >the >machine can maintain a rated amperage . "Short Arc" power sources are >most >commonly found in the consumer to light commercial markets . The >primary >determining factor being purchase price (a few hundred dollars to maybe >a >couple of thousand for a multi purpose unit which could include smaw, >gtaw >and gmaw capabilities. "Short Arc" is fine for doing sheet metal work , >custom car or custom motorcycle work in light gauge metals . >The use of GMAW in industry would be primarily focused on the " Spray >Arc >mode " . High amperages , much higher duty cycles ( at the least 60% to >the >prefered 100% ) , high deposition rates , and very robust weld >integrity on >thicker metals . Of course all of this comes at a cost . I haven't >checked >prices lately but the components I purchased to get in the "spray arc " >mode cost me somewhere around 6k . This is definitely the low end of >the >price range in this category of welding , the sky is the limit when it >comes to equipping an industrial facility . >When I build another submarine I will weld the root and the hot pass >with >GTAW ( TIG) and run the filler and cap passes with FCAW-G ( flux core >with >a cover gas) also commonly known as " dual shield " In spray arc mode >of >course . I have complete confidence in this process . The alternative >of >course could be GTAW(TIG) root and hot pass and SMAW (stick) weld it >out OR >if a person has a lot of time on their hands they could GTAW(TIG) weld >the >joints completely out , root , hot , filler passes and cap . >To answer your question about which is the biggest concern , >embrittlement >or porosity . If you are welding with GMAW in the "short arc" mode then >embrittlement is the issue . If you are welding with GMAW in the "spray >arc >" mode then porosity and blow thru on the root pass would probably be a >problem unless you did the root and hot pass first with TIG . This is >just >a cursory overview because Industry has a lot of options at their >disposal >. Like using the Submerged Arc process with no gap for the root pass >and >getting 100% penetration running at 600 to 1000 amps . Not something >someone can do at home in their garage ! Getting porosity on the root >pass >while welding with GTAW ( TIG) on carbon steel is usually not a problem >, >Of course stainless steel is a completely different animal . Unless you >purge with inert gas oxidation and porosity is standard procedure . >Dan > > >On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Dan - I was under the impression that the issue with GMAW (MIG) was >the >> risk of porosity due to ineffective purge (both purging the opposite >side >> of the joint on the root pass, and back purging the puddle while >filling), >> and that it is perfectly acceptable if 100% gas purge is ensured and >low >> hydrogen electrodes are used? The process is used in lots of pressure >> vessel manufacturing, but perhaps the pros have better control over >this? >> >> I like the idea of a GTAW (TIG) root pass. Doing the filling passes >with >> SMAW (stick) seems tedious, particularly if there is a lot of filling >to be >> done, but your message is making me think twice. Is the major problem >the >> embrittlement, or the porosity? >> >> Sean >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 14:24:16 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 18:24:16 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <674133299.2545129.1505841822312@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20170917155315.F1B45B7D@m0117565.ppops.net> <941752612.1540307.1505735803600@mail.yahoo.com> <1635302371.1875377.1505761072611@mail.yahoo.com> <280007908.2312122.1505821424653@mail.yahoo.com> <674133299.2545129.1505841822312@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank I am not an expert or metalergest and didn't mean to emply that. I guess where I was coming from was that it is a lot easier for someone in this group who isn't a proficient welder to make an inferior critical weld with Mig than with stick. Sounds like you did very well with yours and that's great Rick On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 10:30 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Dan, Rick, > I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. I am not,,,but,, I am an > expert experimenter and tester . My welder has a 60% duty cycle and I have > welded and tried to destroy the weldments and actually wrecked a jack > trying . I test welded and bent and tortured material and not once did a > weld break. Again you guys are the experts but Elementary 3000 had 392,500 > lbs trying to push the hatch through the opening with no issues at all. I > can talk about my welding all day long but it is the pressure test that > says it all. I would have tested it a lot higher but that was the limit > of the chamber. > How can you explain my pretty welds holding 6,500 lbs per inch? If my > welder can only weld sheet metal, why did it not fail? I am a pretty luck > guy, maybe that is it ;-) > Hank > > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory > fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where > the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of > penetration. The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still > looked good. > This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders > that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, > you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on > both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate > towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are > going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your > insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using > the correct equipment as Dan inferred. > Rick > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hank, > I do not in any manner consider myself an expert . I am just relying on > what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a > person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday > ! :) > Dan > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Dan, > I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire > into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the > expert and we should take your advice. No question about it, i would not > want to encourage anything else. > Hank > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for > the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short > Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to > consult a licensed qualified , experienced Welding Engineer before doing > so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc > ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when > used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and > ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building > pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent > tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern > latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper > 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well > documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of > hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds per square inch. Chances are very > good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically > what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation > leading to a false sense of security . Like I mentioned earlier consult > a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice > before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or > hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " > what you don't know can hurt you " . > Dan Lance > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd. I hear all > the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" or " I like to crank er > up" LOL. > The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent > metal into the filler metal, and that is bad. You need sufficient > penetration and I have no problem achieving that. I mig welded Elementary > 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi. > Hank > > On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on > a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard > from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs > like full penetration where quality trumps speed. > > On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alec, > I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then > grind outside as you do. When your welding such light material, the > external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started > with a bevel on both sides. Same difference really. The big difference is > guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are > professional welders. > Hank > > On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end > of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of > about 1/8" is left between the two parts. > > 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the *inside* of the hull, plugging the > air gap. > 2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a > 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped > channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever. > 3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate > thickness. > > Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method > I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. > > Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! > > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig > will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the > hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your > first pass. > Rick > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled . > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 > > Hi David, > > Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my > "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can > avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need > one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the > cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good > point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or > contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan > Lance. > > Best, > > Alec > > On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hi David, > > In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator > to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came > machine welded with an ASME code stamp. > If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads > welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask > them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better > built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO > backing strips. > > Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > > Greg Cottrell > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > > Hi Alec, > I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to > place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the > 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code > Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part > of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm > thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two > matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why > not to have the flange? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped > to northern California from southern California. even though its only a > nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to > pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make > the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out > there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > (707 > ) > 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > > !!!!!!! > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > Hi Roberto, > > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and > code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a > flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a > project page or something so we can follow progress! > > > Best, > > Alec > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > > > wrote: > > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am interested in the head > selection, i found a seler in california and have > flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, > > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 14:28:20 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 20:28:20 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] charcoal filter In-Reply-To: <730954484.2547499.1505842998118@mail.yahoo.com> References: <138345270.2287525.1505818258204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <138345270.2287525.1505818258204@mail.yahoo.com> <730954484.2547499.1505842998118@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I did not upgrade the fan but indeed noticed the flow rate dropped a bit I used a short pvc pipe (water collection type) 200mm diam i think, with end caps on each end (each male side glued in the pvc section, female side just screwed by hand to open/close (few dollars at dyi store) lots of 10mm holes in both end caps And scotchbrite filters (kitchen sponges/scrub) against each end cap to hold charcoal in I had actually made a small oxygen rebreather scrubber to hold the sodalime with that same cheap method. Antoine On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Antoine, > Did you have to up size the fan or are you on lung power only? I will > put a charcoal filter on just because it seems practical and it is pretty > cheap. > What did you use for the filter? > Hank > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:37:02 AM MDT, Antoine Delafargue via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi Hank > I have installed one on the intake hose of the scrubber. With a dedicated > cannister. It works well for odors but don t think it would be any good for > smoke and all its possible harmful contents like carbon monoxide. > Regards > Antoine > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > wrote: > > Hi All, > A while back we were talking about charcoal filtering the sub > environment. Sean suggested a charcoal filter and it has been on my mind. > I think it is a great idea. I was thinking about putting the charcoal > filter on the scrubber intake because my rebreather scrubber is a sealed > can. The other scrubber would need to have the filter on the discharge > end. > Has anyone done this. > This has come to mind after Scott brought up the smoke issue. Is there a > reason I should not put one at the intake of my rebreather scrubber. It > should help with toxic smoke since it is the scrubber I can breath through > manually. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 14:39:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 14:39:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Message-ID: I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool our money and buy an ultrasound machine... -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526 rdolfi7 at gmail.com On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am > not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% > duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and > actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured > material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but > Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the > opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long > but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a > lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my > pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet > metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it > ;-)Hank > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory > fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where > the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of > penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still > looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying > amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a > critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have > penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders > sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure > vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun > intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make > darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying > on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if > a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new > everyday ! ?:)Dan > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the > wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are > the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would > not want to encourage anything else.Hank > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for > the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short > Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to > consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing > so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc > ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when > used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and > ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building > pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent > tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern > latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper > 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well > documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of > hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p! > er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the > first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " > one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of > security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , > experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool > of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from > down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt > you " .Dan Lance > On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear > all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank > er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce > parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient > penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary > 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 > psi.Hank > On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on > a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard > from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs > like full penetration where quality trumps speed. > On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside > then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the > external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started > with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is > guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are > professional welders.Hank > On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp > end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap > of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. > 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air > gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. > Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U > shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities > whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting > the plate thickness. > Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method > I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. > Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! > > > Best, > Alec? > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig > will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the > hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your > first pass.Rick? > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 > > Hi David, > Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my > "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can > avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need > one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the > cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good > point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or > contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan > Lance. > Best, > Alec > On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi David, > In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator > to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came > machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature > external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will > feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This > will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat > pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. > Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > Greg Cottrell > > From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > > Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in > California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be > using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio > ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring > shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull > section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition > with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm > curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have > it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its > only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 > hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I > might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any > thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > !!!!!!! > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > Hi Roberto, > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and > code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a > flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a > project page or something so we can follow progress! > > Best, > Alec > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head > selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, > non code, > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles > mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ > _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20170919/0b371519/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 82 > ***************************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 15:18:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 20:18:36 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] How to wire a plug? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, it works with a travel adapter. I wired up a different Euro plug today (which I can see inside and no resistors or anything) and that works as well. Only difference I can think of is that the UK plug has a fuse. How that can affect it I don't know. Its not a big problem, I would just like to figure it out! Regards James On 19/09/2017, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hmmm... sounds silly but maybe plug it in using a travel adapter? > > :) > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 6:25 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Yes, I am going to ask how to wire a plug.... >> >> Maybe some electrical guru can assist in this issue. >> >> Here in Guernsey, we get a lot of stuff from mainland Europe. Which >> come with a 2 pin euro plug, that doesn't fit with our UK sockets. So >> you just chop the plug off and fit a 3 pin UK one. Done it hundreds >> of times. Standard thing. >> >> I bought this bandsaw from Austria. Chopped the plug off and wired up >> a UK one. Doesn't work. Either just doesn't switch on or trips the >> main breaker. >> >> I thought maybe it was wired reversed as with the euro plugs, you can >> put them in either way. No different. >> >> With the euro plug, the earth is not connected if you force it into >> the socket like your not supposed to do but everyone does. So I >> thought maybe there was a fault with the machine and with the earth >> connected on the UK plug, it was tripping the breaker. Tested with no >> earth. No different. >> >> Basically it will ONLY work with the Euro plug it came with forced >> into the uk wall socket. >> >> Wall socket tested with other appliances, all ok. >> >> I asked the guy in the workshop next to me who is a professional >> electrician. After he had mocked me for not being able to wire a >> plug, he looked at it and was utterly baffled. >> >> See pics. Ignore the temporary wiring bodge, I was putting it back >> together temporarily to prove a point. I was super careful. >> >> Any ideas anyone? Seems really odd. I >> >> Regards >> James >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 16:04:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:04:04 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] charcoal filter In-Reply-To: References: <138345270.2287525.1505818258204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <138345270.2287525.1505818258204@mail.yahoo.com> <730954484.2547499.1505842998118@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Antoine / Hank, with the comments about the scrubber fan slowing down you got me thinking about the load on the fan motor. It would be interesting to test the amp draw under normal operation, attached to the scrubber & with extra filters. It is a critical piece of equipment & we may be loading some of these fans beyond what they are designed for! I am not saying we are, but it is something I hadn't considered. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 20/09/2017, at 6:28 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I did not upgrade the fan but indeed noticed the flow rate dropped a bit > I used a short pvc pipe (water collection type) 200mm diam i think, with end caps on each end (each male side glued in the pvc section, female side just screwed by hand to open/close (few dollars at dyi store) > lots of 10mm holes in both end caps > And scotchbrite filters (kitchen sponges/scrub) against each end cap to hold charcoal in > I had actually made a small oxygen rebreather scrubber to hold the sodalime with that same cheap method. > > Antoine > >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi Antoine, >> Did you have to up size the fan or are you on lung power only? I will put a charcoal filter on just because it seems practical and it is pretty cheap. >> What did you use for the filter? >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:37:02 AM MDT, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Hank >> I have installed one on the intake hose of the scrubber. With a dedicated cannister. It works well for odors but don t think it would be any good for smoke and all its possible harmful contents like carbon monoxide. >> Regards >> Antoine >> >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi All, >> A while back we were talking about charcoal filtering the sub environment.. Sean suggested a charcoal filter and it has been on my mind. I think it is a great idea. I was thinking about putting the charcoal filter on the scrubber intake because my rebreather scrubber is a sealed can. The other scrubber would need to have the filter on the discharge end. >> Has anyone done this. >> This has come to mind after Scott brought up the smoke issue. Is there a reason I should not put one at the intake of my rebreather scrubber. It should help with toxic smoke since it is the scrubber I can breath through manually. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 16:10:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 20:10:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] How to wire a plug? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18711796.2670281.1505851841737@mail.yahoo.com> James,That fuse might be more than a fuse.Hank On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 1:18:54 PM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, it works with a travel adapter. I wired up a different Euro plug today (which I can see inside and no resistors or anything) and that works as well.? Only difference I can think of is that the UK plug has a fuse.? How that can affect it I don't know. Its not a big problem, I would just like to figure it out! Regards James On 19/09/2017, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hmmm... sounds silly but maybe plug it in using a travel adapter? > > :) > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 6:25 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Yes, I am going to ask how to wire a plug.... >> >> Maybe some electrical guru can assist in this issue. >> >> Here in Guernsey, we get a lot of stuff from mainland Europe.? Which >> come with a 2 pin euro plug, that doesn't fit with our UK sockets.? So >> you just chop the plug off and fit a 3 pin UK one.? Done it hundreds >> of times.? Standard thing. >> >> I bought this bandsaw from Austria.? Chopped the plug off and wired up >> a UK one.? Doesn't work.? Either just doesn't switch on or trips the >> main breaker. >> >> I thought maybe it was wired reversed as with the euro plugs, you can >> put them in either way.? No different. >> >> With the euro plug, the earth is not connected if you force it into >> the socket like your not supposed to do but everyone does.? So I >> thought maybe there was a fault with the machine and with the earth >> connected on the UK plug, it was tripping the breaker.? Tested with no >> earth.? No different. >> >> Basically it will ONLY work with the Euro plug it came with forced >> into the uk wall socket. >> >> Wall socket tested with other appliances, all ok. >> >> I asked the guy in the workshop next to me who is a professional >> electrician.? After he had mocked me for not being able to wire a >> plug, he looked at it and was utterly baffled. >> >> See pics.? Ignore the temporary wiring bodge, I was putting it back >> together temporarily to prove a point.? I was super careful. >> >> Any ideas anyone?? Seems really odd.? I >> >> Regards >> James >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 16:25:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 16:25:51 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you River ! Very well said ! This is why I suggest that a licensed experienced welding engineer be consulted . Hank, Yes, It's possible to produce a very pretty ( appearance wise ) multi-pass weld with a low end MIG welding machine . But there is a big difference between what is pretty and will be structurally sound over the long term . I will say it one more time , Yes it might be a very pretty weld but it is brittle and given the right circumstances it will fail . The next time I get out to the west coast I will stop by your place . We will have you weld up a test coupon and I will show you how to destructively test to ASME standards . I am confident the results will surprise you . I was hesitant to respond originally to this MIG welding reference in this thread because I knew there would be hurt feelings and possibly start a flame war . I can assure you I have better things to do with my time then argue about something like this . But I decided that if I can keep even one person from being harmed then it would be worth it . If we don't look out for the inexperienced people in the group the government will do it for us and we definitely won't like what happens next . Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:39 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure > test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a > weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service > life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness > (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, > as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually > reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather > unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. > > All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool > our money and buy an ultrasound machine... > > -River J. Dolfi > > 412-997-2526 <(412)%20997-2526> > rdolfi7 at gmail.com > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am >> not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% >> duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and >> actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured >> material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but >> Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the >> opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long >> but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a >> lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my >> pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet >> metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it >> ;-)Hank >> >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory >> fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where >> the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of >> penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still >> looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying >> amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a >> critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have >> penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders >> sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure >> vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun >> intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make >> darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just >> relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My >> motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something >> new everyday ! ?:)Dan >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the >> wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are >> the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would >> not want to encourage anything else.Hank >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for >> the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short >> Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to >> consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing >> so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc >> ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when >> used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and >> ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building >> pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent >> tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern >> latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper >> 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well >> documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of >> hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p! >> er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the >> first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " >> one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of >> security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , >> experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool >> of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from >> down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt >> you " .Dan Lance >> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear >> all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank >> er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce >> parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient >> penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary >> 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 >> psi.Hank >> On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig >> on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard >> from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs >> like full penetration where quality trumps speed. >> On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the >> inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light >> material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as >> if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The >> big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because >> they are professional welders.Hank >> On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp >> end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap >> of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. >> 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air >> gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. >> Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U >> shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities >> whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting >> the plate thickness. >> Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The >> method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. >> Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! >> >> >> Best, >> Alec? >> >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig >> will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the >> hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your >> first pass.Rick? >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: >> >> From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 >> >> Hi David, >> Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my >> "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can >> avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need >> one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the >> cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good >> point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or >> contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan >> Lance. >> Best, >> Alec >> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi David, >> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank >> fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. >> Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will >> feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design >> will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. >> This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat >> pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. >> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". >> Greg Cottrell >> >> From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> >> Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in >> California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be >> using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio >> ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring >> shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull >> section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition >> with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm >> curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have >> it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its >> only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 >> hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I >> might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any >> thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not >> "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". >> !!!!!!! >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >> >> Hi Roberto, >> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, >> and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make >> a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a >> project page or something so we can follow progress! >> >> Best, >> Alec >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head >> selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, >> non code, >> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles >> mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ >> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ >> _________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > attachments/20170919/0b371519/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 82 >> ***************************************************** >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 16:38:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 20:38:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <211563950.2666118.1505853516798@mail.yahoo.com> Dan,My feelings are not hurt at all ;-) ?I have big shoulders. ? About four years ago, I was asked to lift an 8 unit condo building and replace the foundations. An engineer on site told the condo board it could not be done. ?This is kind of the same thing to me. I respected the engineer greatly as I do your knowledge. ? By the way the owners of the 8 unit condo building are enjoying the new basements I installed under the building that could not get new basements.I did cupon tests as per your instructions and they passed perfectly. ??Lets not waste anymore of your time on this and I will concede that Elementary 3000 is doomed ;-)Hank On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 2:26:12 PM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank you River !?Very well said !? This is why I suggest that a licensed experienced welding engineer be consulted .Hank,Yes, It's possible to produce a very pretty ( appearance wise ) multi-pass weld with a low end MIG welding machine . But there is a big difference between what is pretty and will be structurally sound over the long term . I will say it one more time , Yes it might be a very pretty weld but it is brittle and given the right circumstances it will fail .?The next time I get out to the west coast I will stop by your place . We will have you weld up a test coupon and I will show you how to destructively test to ASME standards .? I am confident the results will surprise you .?I was hesitant to respond originally to this MIG welding reference in this thread because I knew there would be hurt feelings and possibly start a flame war . I can assure you I have better things to do with my time then argue about something like this . But I decided that if I can keep even one person from being harmed then it would be worth it . If we don't look out for the inexperienced people in the group the government will do it for us and we definitely won't like what happens next .Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:39 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. ? All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool our money and buy an ultrasound machine... -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526rdolfi7 at gmail.com On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles at psubs.or g To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ? ? ? ? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_submersi bles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-request@ psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-owner at ps ubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? ?1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.15058418223 12 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" ?Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it ;-)Hank ? ? On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday ! ?:)Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would not want to encourage anything else.Hank ? ? On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ??Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p! ?er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " .Dan Lance On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank ? ? On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed. On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank ? ? On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! Best, Alec? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Private via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 Hi David, Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. Best, Alec On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell ? ? ? From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles ?To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ?Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Subm ersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psub s. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailma n/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles__________________ ____________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 17:34:04 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 09:34:04 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <211563950.2666118.1505853516798@mail.yahoo.com> References: <211563950.2666118.1505853516798@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <014801d3318f$06ed84b0$14c88e10$@gmail.com> Dan, Sean, Hank, Thanks guys for bringing it up. It is this insidious creeping or lowering of standards which is happening with some people taking shortcuts and others buying equipment which is being dumbed down. It is not deliberate and often due to lack of knowledge but old-school procedures and tradesmen are getting more in short supply. I used to own and run an ASME shop for our vessels for compressors. Now I am guilty of buying welders that are not man enough for the job that we are in danger of using for some structural use on 300 hp recip compressor skids. We are farming these skids out to be made as I sold off all the gear I used to have. I am now just in the process of updating the drawings to include minimum weld specs as a result of this thread. Our old drawings were adequate because we used to have the right guys and the right machines. I know this sort of discussion has come up before but I am grateful for the reminder and I should not have to be reminded. We had 2 competitors one in Korea and one local whose skid frames were made of 10 inch RHS with nice looking welds. Both of them fell apart at the welds. They were subject to vibration but if they had been welded properly they would have held together. Hank, you are doing some awesome stuff but sometimes it is good to have these pro?s put some theory to the situation. We all have some really interesting stories to tell which are relevant to what we are doing. I would love to sit around a fire with you guys and some drink and hear them but I enjoy this forum in its place. Best regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 20 September 2017 8:39 AM To: Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Dan, My feelings are not hurt at all ;-) I have big shoulders. About four years ago, I was asked to lift an 8 unit condo building and replace the foundations. An engineer on site told the condo board it could not be done. This is kind of the same thing to me. I respected the engineer greatly as I do your knowledge. By the way the owners of the 8 unit condo building are enjoying the new basements I installed under the building that could not get new basements. I did cupon tests as per your instructions and they passed perfectly. Lets not waste anymore of your time on this and I will concede that Elementary 3000 is doomed ;-) Hank On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 2:26:12 PM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank you River ! Very well said ! This is why I suggest that a licensed experienced welding engineer be consulted . Hank, Yes, It's possible to produce a very pretty ( appearance wise ) multi-pass weld with a low end MIG welding machine . But there is a big difference between what is pretty and will be structurally sound over the long term . I will say it one more time , Yes it might be a very pretty weld but it is brittle and given the right circumstances it will fail . The next time I get out to the west coast I will stop by your place . We will have you weld up a test coupon and I will show you how to destructively test to ASME standards . I am confident the results will surprise you . I was hesitant to respond originally to this MIG welding reference in this thread because I knew there would be hurt feelings and possibly start a flame war . I can assure you I have better things to do with my time then argue about something like this . But I decided that if I can keep even one person from being harmed then it would be worth it . If we don't look out for the inexperienced people in the group the government will do it for us and we definitely won't like what happens next . Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:39 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool our money and buy an ultrasound machine... -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526 rdolfi7 at gmail.com On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.or g To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_submersi bles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request@ psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at ps ubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.15058418223 12 at mail.yahoo.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it ;-)Hank On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday ! ?:)Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would not want to encourage anything else.Hank On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p! er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " .Dan Lance On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed. On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! Best, Alec? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 Hi David, Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. Best, Alec On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Subm ersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psub s. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailma n/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles__________________ ____________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: > ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_submersi bles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 82 ****************************** *********************** ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 17:45:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 23:45:25 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] charcoal filter In-Reply-To: References: <138345270.2287525.1505818258204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <138345270.2287525.1505818258204@mail.yahoo.com> <730954484.2547499.1505842998118@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan you are right, Emile is a good ressource too. He made my scrubber, using radial (not axial) fans, which are better handling back pressure. I also made my scrubber fatter than Emile's original design, to reduce delta P, and allow for this extra charcoal back pressure, or to put my two scrubbers in series. the other thing is, when not doing much exercize in the sub, and without the extra charcoal filter, I can put 12V through the fan in one or both scrubbers, instead of 24V. this way the load and noise go down a lot. and CO2 not much up. regards Antoine Garanti sans virus. www.avg.com <#m_-1882069785374903277_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 10:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Antoine / Hank, > with the comments about the scrubber fan slowing down you got me > thinking about the load on the fan motor. It would be interesting > to test the amp draw under normal operation, attached to the scrubber > & with extra filters. It is a critical piece of equipment & we may be > loading > some of these fans beyond what they are designed for! > I am not saying we are, but it is something I hadn't considered. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 20/09/2017, at 6:28 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I did not upgrade the fan but indeed noticed the flow rate dropped a bit > I used a short pvc pipe (water collection type) 200mm diam i > think, with end caps on each end (each male side glued in the pvc section, > female side just screwed by hand to open/close (few dollars at dyi store) > lots of 10mm holes in both end caps > And scotchbrite filters (kitchen sponges/scrub) against each end cap to > hold charcoal in > I had actually made a small oxygen rebreather scrubber to hold the > sodalime with that same cheap method. > > Antoine > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Antoine, >> Did you have to up size the fan or are you on lung power only? I will >> put a charcoal filter on just because it seems practical and it is pretty >> cheap. >> What did you use for the filter? >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:37:02 AM MDT, Antoine Delafargue via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Hank >> I have installed one on the intake hose of the scrubber. With a dedicated >> cannister. It works well for odors but don t think it would be any good for >> smoke and all its possible harmful contents like carbon monoxide. >> Regards >> Antoine >> >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> A while back we were talking about charcoal filtering the sub >> environment. Sean suggested a charcoal filter and it has been on my mind. >> I think it is a great idea. I was thinking about putting the charcoal >> filter on the scrubber intake because my rebreather scrubber is a sealed >> can. The other scrubber would need to have the filter on the discharge >> end. >> Has anyone done this. >> This has come to mind after Scott brought up the smoke issue. Is there a >> reason I should not put one at the intake of my rebreather scrubber. It >> should help with toxic smoke since it is the scrubber I can breath through >> manually. >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 20:55:32 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:55:32 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19556872-F475-4528-B547-B82B10CAA0AB@yahoo.com> I am not a welder, but shouldn't the external pressure at depth help keep a submarine together! i.e you can unlatch a hatch at depth and nothing is going to fall apart. I can understand that the welds on subs with external ribs would be critical. What is going to fail if the weld isn't fantastic? ( question not statement) The acrylic hulled subs are held together with glue! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 20/09/2017, at 8:25 AM, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thank you River ! > Very well said ! This is why I suggest that a licensed experienced welding engineer be consulted . > Hank, > Yes, It's possible to produce a very pretty ( appearance wise ) multi-pass weld with a low end MIG welding machine . But there is a big difference between what is pretty and will be structurally sound over the long term . I will say it one more time , Yes it might be a very pretty weld but it is brittle and given the right circumstances it will fail . > The next time I get out to the west coast I will stop by your place . We will have you weld up a test coupon and I will show you how to destructively test to ASME standards . I am confident the results will surprise you . > I was hesitant to respond originally to this MIG welding reference in this thread because I knew there would be hurt feelings and possibly start a flame war . I can assure you I have better things to do with my time then argue about something like this . But I decided that if I can keep even one person from being harmed then it would be worth it . If we don't look out for the inexperienced people in the group the government will do it for us and we definitely won't like what happens next . > Dan > >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:39 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. >> >> All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool our money and buy an ultrasound machine... >> >> -River J. Dolfi >> >> 412-997-2526 >> rdolfi7 at gmail.com >> >>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) >>> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >>> >>> To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >>> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >>> Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it ;-)Hank >>> >>> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? >>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday ! ?:)Dan >>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would not want to encourage anything else.Hank >>> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p! >>> er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " .Dan Lance >>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank >>> On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed. >>> On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank >>> On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. >>> 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. >>> Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. >>> Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> Alec? >>> >>> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick? >>> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: >>> >>> From: Private via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >>> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 >>> >>> Hi David, >>> Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. >>> Best, >>> Alec >>> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi David, >>> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. >>> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". >>> Greg Cottrell >>> >>> From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >>> >>> Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". >>> !!!!!!! >>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Roberto, >>> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! >>> >>> Best, >>> Alec >>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, >>> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ _________________ >>> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Subject: Digest Footer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 82 >>> ***************************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 21:30:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:30:06 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <19556872-F475-4528-B547-B82B10CAA0AB@yahoo.com> References: <19556872-F475-4528-B547-B82B10CAA0AB@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1E5E593F-8A6F-4D21-A67A-FE346A224544@yahoo.com> Before I get shot down; yes there is tensile stress longitudinally on a tubular shaped hull that would tear at the weld where the end caps are attached. With Hank's Elementary 3000, which is two hemispheres joined together, the weld wouldn't be critical, would it? Alan Sent from my iPad > On 20/09/2017, at 12:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I am not a welder, but shouldn't the external pressure at depth > help keep a submarine together! i.e you can unlatch a hatch at > depth and nothing is going to fall apart. I can understand that the > welds on subs with external ribs would be critical. > What is going to fail if the weld isn't fantastic? ( question not statement) > The acrylic hulled subs are held together with glue! > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 20/09/2017, at 8:25 AM, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Thank you River ! >> Very well said ! This is why I suggest that a licensed experienced welding engineer be consulted . >> Hank, >> Yes, It's possible to produce a very pretty ( appearance wise ) multi-pass weld with a low end MIG welding machine . But there is a big difference between what is pretty and will be structurally sound over the long term . I will say it one more time , Yes it might be a very pretty weld but it is brittle and given the right circumstances it will fail . >> The next time I get out to the west coast I will stop by your place . We will have you weld up a test coupon and I will show you how to destructively test to ASME standards . I am confident the results will surprise you . >> I was hesitant to respond originally to this MIG welding reference in this thread because I knew there would be hurt feelings and possibly start a flame war . I can assure you I have better things to do with my time then argue about something like this . But I decided that if I can keep even one person from being harmed then it would be worth it . If we don't look out for the inexperienced people in the group the government will do it for us and we definitely won't like what happens next . >> Dan >> >>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:39 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. >>> >>> All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool our money and buy an ultrasound machine... >>> >>> -River J. Dolfi >>> >>> 412-997-2526 >>> rdolfi7 at gmail.com >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) >>>> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >>>> >>>> To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >>>> Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it ;-)Hank >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still looked good..?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? >>>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday ! ?:)Dan >>>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would not want to encourage anything else.Hank >>>> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p! >>>> er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " .Dan Lance >>>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank >>>> On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed. >>>> On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank >>>> On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. >>>> 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. >>>> Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. >>>> Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Alec? >>>> >>>> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick? >>>> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Private via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >>>> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 >>>> >>>> Hi David, >>>> Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. >>>> Best, >>>> Alec >>>> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi David, >>>> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. >>>> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". >>>> Greg Cottrell >>>> >>>> From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >>>> >>>> Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> David Colombo >>>> >>>> 804 College Ave >>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>>> (707) 536-1424 >>>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". >>>> !!!!!!! >>>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Roberto, >>>> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Alec >>>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, >>>> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ _________________ >>>> >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Subject: Digest Footer >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 82 >>>> ***************************************************** >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Sep 19 21:33:27 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 01:33:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <19556872-F475-4528-B547-B82B10CAA0AB@yahoo.com> References: <19556872-F475-4528-B547-B82B10CAA0AB@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <646044977.2823666.1505871207064@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I think it would depend on the location of the part. ?If you had a cylinder with a ring sitting on the end and a tank head sitting on top of that. the load path would be perfectly strait. ?Then the weld probably could not fail unless there is an out of round issue, then the cylinder could squeeze, and there ?would be a bunch of Sean explanations. ? In my case I have a two openings that are strait through, so the pressure is trying to sheer the welds, but at the same time the hull is being squeezed into the parts that are welded. ?I deliberately ground a groove into the side of the inserts to create a weldment keyway of sorts. ?Hank On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 6:55:57 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am not a welder, but shouldn't the external pressure at depthhelp keep a submarine together! i.e you can unlatch a hatch atdepth and nothing is going to fall apart. I can understand that thewelds on subs with external ribs would be critical.What is going to fail if the weld isn't fantastic? ( question not statement)The acrylic hulled subs are held together with glue!Alan Sent from my iPad On 20/09/2017, at 8:25 AM, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank you River !?Very well said !? This is why I suggest that a licensed experienced welding engineer be consulted .Hank,Yes, It's possible to produce a very pretty ( appearance wise ) multi-pass weld with a low end MIG welding machine . But there is a big difference between what is pretty and will be structurally sound over the long term . I will say it one more time , Yes it might be a very pretty weld but it is brittle and given the right circumstances it will fail .?The next time I get out to the west coast I will stop by your place . We will have you weld up a test coupon and I will show you how to destructively test to ASME standards .? I am confident the results will surprise you .?I was hesitant to respond originally to this MIG welding reference in this thread because I knew there would be hurt feelings and possibly start a flame war . I can assure you I have better things to do with my time then argue about something like this . But I decided that if I can keep even one person from being harmed then it would be worth it . If we don't look out for the inexperienced people in the group the government will do it for us and we definitely won't like what happens next .Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:39 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. ? All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool our money and buy an ultrasound machine... -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526rdolfi7 at gmail.com On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles at psubs.or g To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ? ? ? ? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_submersi bles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-request@ psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-owner at ps ubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? ?1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.15058418223 12 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" ?Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it ;-)Hank ? ? On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday ! ?:)Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would not want to encourage anything else.Hank ? ? On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ??Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p! ?er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " .Dan Lance On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank ? ? On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed. On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank ? ? On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! Best, Alec? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Private via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 Hi David, Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. Best, Alec On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell ? ? ? From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles ?To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ?Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Subm ersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psub s. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailma n/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles__________________ ____________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_submersi bles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 82 ****************************** *********************** ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 20 08:17:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 06:17:51 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: uNRYdS6mlNnSvuNRZdWWuP References: uNRYdS6mlNnSvuNRZdWWuP Message-ID: <7356e0c7-9a7d-4f7e-8305-3c5de3918232@email.android.com> Fatigue issues in weldments typically arise as a result of the geometry of the weld, where fatigue sensitive details such as doubler plates, sharp interfaces, inherent "cracks" at the apexes of partial penetration welds, overlapping weld toes etc. cause local amplification of the service stress ranges. Pressure hulls are inherently resistant to fatigue as a result of the mandated geometries, CJP welds, and barring the high strength alloys, the generally tougher nature of e.g. ASTM A516 Gr. 70 steel. I might go as far as to say that a PSub is unlikely to see enough high stress cycles within its lifetime to justify worrying about fatigue at all. Indeed, ABS only requires a fatigue analysis under specific conditions: >From the ABS rules (2017): Section 6/9: Fatigue? (2002) A? fatigue analysis? is? to? be submitted? when? it is? anticipated? that the life time? full range pressure? cycles? N will exceed? that obtained? from? the following? equation: N = [1160(3000? ?? T)/(Kf?? ?? 14500)]^2 where T = temperature? in? degrees? C? (degrees? F)? corresponding? to? application? of? the? cyclic? or repeated stress K? =? 5688 SI/MKS units (4? U.S.? units) f? = range? of? cyclic stress? kg/mm2? (lb/in2) Pressure cycles? of? less? than? full? pressure are to? be included? in? N? in? the ratio? p/P? where? p? is? the? actual pressure of? the? cycle? under? consideration? and? P? is? the design? pressure. Sean On September 19, 2017 12:39:42 PM MDT, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single >pressure >test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a >weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the >service >life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture >toughness >(aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each >cycle, >as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually >reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather >unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. > >All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool >our >money and buy an ultrasound machine... > >-River J. Dolfi > >412-997-2526 >rdolfi7 at gmail.com > >On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> >> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am >> not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a >60% >> duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and >> actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured >> material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the >experts but >> Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the >> opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day >long >> but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested >it a >> lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain >my >> pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld >sheet >> metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is >it >> ;-)Hank >> >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty >factory >> fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel >where >> the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of >> penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it >still >> looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a >saying >> amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If >it is a >> critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always >have >> penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders >> sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a >pressure >> vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick >"pun >> intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally >or make >> darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just >relying >> on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto >is if >> a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new >> everyday ! ?:)Dan >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >< >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading >the >> wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, >you are >> the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i >would >> not want to encourage anything else.Hank >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state >for >> the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " >Short >> Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to >> consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before >doing >> so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( >short arc >> ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , >when >> used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature >and >> ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for >building >> pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an >inherent >> tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a >northern >> latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the >upper >> 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well >> documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom >pressure of >> hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p! >> er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on >the >> first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the >proverbial " >> one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of >> security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified >, >> experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that >spool >> of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert >welder from >> down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can >hurt >> you " .Dan Lance >> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >< >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I >hear >> all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to >crank >> er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you >introduce >> parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need >sufficient >> penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded >Elementary >> 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to >1,250 >> psi.Hank >> On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using >mig on >> a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always >heard >> from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not >for jobs >> like full penetration where quality trumps speed. >> On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the >inside >> then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, >the >> external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you >started >> with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big >difference is >> guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are >> professional welders.Hank >> On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the >sharp >> end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An >air gap >> of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. >> 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the >air >> gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root >pass. >> Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny >U >> shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities >> whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until >meeting >> the plate thickness. >> Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The >method >> I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. >> Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! >> >> >> Best, >> Alec? >> >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via >Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your >wire/stick/Tig >> will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID >of the >> hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching >your >> first pass.Rick? >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled >.?Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: >> >> From: Private via Personal_Submersibles org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 >> >> Hi David, >> Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was >my >> "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you >can >> avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only >need >> one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of >the >> cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a >good >> point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding >yourself or >> contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help >from Dan >> Lance. >> Best, >> Alec >> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via >Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi David, >> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank >fabricator >> to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine >came >> machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature >> external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design >will >> feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. >This >> will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat >> pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. >> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". >> Greg Cottrell >> >> From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> org> >> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> >> Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in >> California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I >will be >> using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 >Ratio >> ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od >ring >> shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first >hull >> section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding >condition >> with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. >I'm >> curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 >to have >> it shipped to northern California from southern California. even >though its >> only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more >than $5 >> hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), >I >> might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. >Any >> thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not >> "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". >> !!!!!!! >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth >wrote: >> >> Hi Roberto, >> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, >beveled, and >> code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to >make a >> flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set >up a >> project page or something so we can follow progress! >> >> Best, >> Alec >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via >Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head >> selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled >,code, >> non code, >> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles >> mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. >orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ >> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ >> _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> 20170919/0b371519/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 82 >> ***************************************************** >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 20 10:17:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jerry Koontz via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 91 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1249236537.4633005.1505917041248.JavaMail.root@md20.quartz.synacor.com> Weld inspection can be done with Magnetic particle inspection. It is an inexpensive method that works really well. I use the dry power and a car battery. Works good. Here is some more information on that method. Magnetic particle Inspection (MPI) is a non-destructive testing (NDT) process for detecting surface and slightly subsurface discontinuities in ferromagnetic materials such as iron, nickel, cobalt, and some of their alloys. The process puts a magnetic field into the part. The piece can be magnetized by direct or indirect magnetization. Direct magnetization occurs when the electric current is passed through the test object and a magnetic field is formed in the material. Indirect magnetization occurs when no electric current is passed through the test object, but a magnetic field is applied from an outside source. The magnetic lines of force are perpendicular to the direction of the electric current, which may be either alternating current (AC) or some form of direct current (DC) (rectified AC). The presence of a surface or subsurface discontinuity in the material allows the magnetic flux to leak, since air cannot support as much magnetic field per unit volume as metals. To identify a leak, ferrous particles, either dry or in a wet suspension, are applied to a part. These are attracted to an area of flux leakage and form what is known as an indication, which is evaluated to determine its nature, cause, and course of action, if any. ----- Original Message ----- From: "via Personal_Submersibles" To: "personal submersibles" Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 7:17:31 AM Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 91 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Heads Question (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 06:17:51 -0600 From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Message-ID: <7356e0c7-9a7d-4f7e-8305-3c5de3918232 at email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Fatigue issues in weldments typically arise as a result of the geometry of the weld, where fatigue sensitive details such as doubler plates, sharp interfaces, inherent "cracks" at the apexes of partial penetration welds, overlapping weld toes etc. cause local amplification of the service stress ranges. Pressure hulls are inherently resistant to fatigue as a result of the mandated geometries, CJP welds, and barring the high strength alloys, the generally tougher nature of e.g. ASTM A516 Gr. 70 steel. I might go as far as to say that a PSub is unlikely to see enough high stress cycles within its lifetime to justify worrying about fatigue at all. Indeed, ABS only requires a fatigue analysis under specific conditions: >From the ABS rules (2017): Section 6/9: Fatigue? (2002) A? fatigue analysis? is? to? be submitted? when? it is? anticipated? that the life time? full range pressure? cycles? N will exceed? that obtained? from? the following? equation: N = [1160(3000? ?? T)/(Kf?? ?? 14500)]^2 where T = temperature? in? degrees? C? (degrees? F)? corresponding? to? application? of? the? cyclic? or repeated stress K? =? 5688 SI/MKS units (4? U.S.? units) f? = range? of? cyclic stress? kg/mm2? (lb/in2) Pressure cycles? of? less? than? full? pressure are to? be included? in? N? in? the ratio? p/P? where? p? is? the? actual pressure of? the? cycle? under? consideration? and? P? is? the design? pressure. Sean On September 19, 2017 12:39:42 PM MDT, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single >pressure >test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a >weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the >service >life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture >toughness >(aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each >cycle, >as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually >reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather >unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. > >All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool >our >money and buy an ultrasound machine... > >-River J. Dolfi > >412-997-2526 >rdolfi7 at gmail.com > >On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> >> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am >> not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a >60% >> duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and >> actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured >> material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the >experts but >> Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the >> opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day >long >> but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested >it a >> lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain >my >> pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld >sheet >> metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is >it >> ;-)Hank >> >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty >factory >> fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel >where >> the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of >> penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it >still >> looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a >saying >> amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If >it is a >> critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always >have >> penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders >> sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a >pressure >> vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick >"pun >> intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally >or make >> darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via >Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just >relying >> on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto >is if >> a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new >> everyday ! ?:)Dan >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >< >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading >the >> wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, >you are >> the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i >would >> not want to encourage anything else.Hank >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state >for >> the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " >Short >> Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to >> consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before >doing >> so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( >short arc >> ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , >when >> used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature >and >> ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for >building >> pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an >inherent >> tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a >northern >> latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the >upper >> 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well >> documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom >pressure of >> hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p! >> er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on >the >> first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the >proverbial " >> one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of >> security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified >, >> experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that >spool >> of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert >welder from >> down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can >hurt >> you " .Dan Lance >> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >< >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I >hear >> all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to >crank >> er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you >introduce >> parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need >sufficient >> penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded >Elementary >> 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to >1,250 >> psi.Hank >> On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using >mig on >> a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always >heard >> from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not >for jobs >> like full penetration where quality trumps speed. >> On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the >inside >> then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, >the >> external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you >started >> with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big >difference is >> guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are >> professional welders.Hank >> On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the >sharp >> end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An >air gap >> of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. >> 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the >air >> gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root >pass. >> Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny >U >> shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities >> whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until >meeting >> the plate thickness. >> Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The >method >> I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. >> Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! >> >> >> Best, >> Alec? >> >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via >Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your >wire/stick/Tig >> will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID >of the >> hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching >your >> first pass.Rick? >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled >.?Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: >> >> From: Private via Personal_Submersibles org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 >> >> Hi David, >> Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was >my >> "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you >can >> avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only >need >> one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of >the >> cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a >good >> point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding >yourself or >> contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help >from Dan >> Lance. >> Best, >> Alec >> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via >Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi David, >> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank >fabricator >> to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine >came >> machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature >> external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design >will >> feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. >This >> will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat >> pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. >> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". >> Greg Cottrell >> >> From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> org> >> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> >> Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in >> California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I >will be >> using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 >Ratio >> ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od >ring >> shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first >hull >> section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding >condition >> with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. >I'm >> curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 >to have >> it shipped to northern California from southern California. even >though its >> only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more >than $5 >> hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), >I >> might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. >Any >> thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not >> "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". >> !!!!!!! >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth >wrote: >> >> Hi Roberto, >> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, >beveled, and >> code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to >make a >> flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set >up a >> project page or something so we can follow progress! >> >> Best, >> Alec >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via >Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head >> selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled >,code, >> non code, >> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles >> mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. >orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ >> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ >> _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> 20170919/0b371519/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 82 >> ***************************************************** >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 91 ***************************************************** From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 20 10:43:30 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 14:43:30 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 91 In-Reply-To: <1249236537.4633005.1505917041248.JavaMail.root@md20.quartz.synacor.com> References: <1249236537.4633005.1505917041248.JavaMail.root@md20.quartz.synacor.com> Message-ID: Jerry, Sean or Dan may be able to correct me but what little I know about that process mainly only shows cracks that have made their way to the surface and not all the way to the root. Thought more costly, X ray and ultra sound which is more accurate than X ray tell the whole story. Rick On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 7:18 AM Jerry Koontz via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Weld inspection can be done with Magnetic particle inspection. It is an > inexpensive method that works really well. I use the dry power and a car > battery. Works good. > > Here is some more information on that method. > > Magnetic particle Inspection (MPI) is a non-destructive testing (NDT) > process for detecting surface and slightly subsurface discontinuities in > ferromagnetic materials such as iron, nickel, cobalt, and some of their > alloys. The process puts a magnetic field into the part. The piece can be > magnetized by direct or indirect magnetization. Direct magnetization occurs > when the electric current is passed through the test object and a magnetic > field is formed in the material. Indirect magnetization occurs when no > electric current is passed through the test object, but a magnetic field is > applied from an outside source. The magnetic lines of force are > perpendicular to the direction of the electric current, which may be either > alternating current (AC) or some form of direct current (DC) (rectified AC). > > The presence of a surface or subsurface discontinuity in the material > allows the magnetic flux to leak, since air cannot support as much magnetic > field per unit volume as metals. > > To identify a leak, ferrous particles, either dry or in a wet suspension, > are applied to a part. These are attracted to an area of flux leakage and > form what is known as an indication, which is evaluated to determine its > nature, cause, and course of action, if any. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "via Personal_Submersibles" > To: "personal submersibles" > Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 7:17:31 AM > Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 91 > > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Heads Question (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 06:17:51 -0600 > From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Message-ID: <7356e0c7-9a7d-4f7e-8305-3c5de3918232 at email.android.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Fatigue issues in weldments typically arise as a result of the geometry of > the weld, where fatigue sensitive details such as doubler plates, sharp > interfaces, inherent "cracks" at the apexes of partial penetration welds, > overlapping weld toes etc. cause local amplification of the service stress > ranges. Pressure hulls are inherently resistant to fatigue as a result of > the mandated geometries, CJP welds, and barring the high strength alloys, > the generally tougher nature of e.g. ASTM A516 Gr. 70 steel. I might go as > far as to say that a PSub is unlikely to see enough high stress cycles > within its lifetime to justify worrying about fatigue at all. Indeed, ABS > only requires a fatigue analysis under specific conditions: > > >From the ABS rules (2017): > Section 6/9: > > Fatigue? (2002) A? fatigue analysis? is? to? be submitted? when? it is? > anticipated? that the life time? full range pressure? cycles? N will > exceed? that obtained? from? the following? equation: > > N = [1160(3000? ?? T)/(Kf?? ?? 14500)]^2 > > where > > T = temperature? in? degrees? C? (degrees? F)? corresponding? to? > application? of? the? cyclic? or repeated stress > K? =? 5688 SI/MKS units (4? U.S.? units) > f? = range? of? cyclic stress? kg/mm2? (lb/in2) > > Pressure cycles? of? less? than? full? pressure are to? be included? in? > N? in? the ratio? p/P? where? p? is? the? actual pressure of? the? cycle? > under? consideration? and? P? is? the design? pressure. > > > Sean > > > > On September 19, 2017 12:39:42 PM MDT, River Dolfi via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single > >pressure > >test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a > >weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the > >service > >life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture > >toughness > >(aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each > >cycle, > >as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually > >reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather > >unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. > > > >All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool > >our > >money and buy an ultrasound machine... > > > >-River J. Dolfi > > > >412-997-2526 > >rdolfi7 at gmail.com > > > >On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > >> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >> > >http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >> personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > >> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at > >> personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > >> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > >> > >> > >> Today's Topics: > >> > >> 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) > >> > >> > >> > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Message: 1 > >> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) > >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >> > >> To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > >> > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > >> Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> > >> Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am > >> not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a > >60% > >> duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and > >> actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured > >> material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the > >experts but > >> Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the > >> opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day > >long > >> but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested > >it a > >> lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain > >my > >> pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld > >sheet > >> metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is > >it > >> ;-)Hank > >> > >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> > >> Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty > >factory > >> fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel > >where > >> the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of > >> penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it > >still > >> looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a > >saying > >> amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If > >it is a > >> critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always > >have > >> penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders > >> sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a > >pressure > >> vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick > >"pun > >> intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally > >or make > >> darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? > >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via > >Personal_Submersibles < > >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> > >> Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just > >relying > >> on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto > >is if > >> a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new > >> everyday ! ?:)Dan > >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >< > >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> > >> Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading > >the > >> wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, > >you are > >> the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i > >would > >> not want to encourage anything else.Hank > >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via > >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> > >> ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state > >for > >> the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " > >Short > >> Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to > >> consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before > >doing > >> so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( > >short arc > >> ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , > >when > >> used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature > >and > >> ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for > >building > >> pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an > >inherent > >> tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a > >northern > >> latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the > >upper > >> 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well > >> documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom > >pressure of > >> hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p! > >> er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on > >the > >> first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the > >proverbial " > >> one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of > >> security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified > >, > >> experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that > >spool > >> of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert > >welder from > >> down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can > >hurt > >> you " .Dan Lance > >> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >< > >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> > >> Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I > >hear > >> all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to > >crank > >> er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you > >introduce > >> parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need > >sufficient > >> penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded > >Elementary > >> 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to > >1,250 > >> psi.Hank > >> On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via > >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> > >> Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using > >mig on > >> a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always > >heard > >> from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not > >for jobs > >> like full penetration where quality trumps speed. > >> On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the > >inside > >> then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, > >the > >> external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you > >started > >> with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big > >difference is > >> guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are > >> professional welders.Hank > >> On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> > >> Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the > >sharp > >> end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An > >air gap > >> of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. > >> 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the > >air > >> gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root > >pass. > >> Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny > >U > >> shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities > >> whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until > >meeting > >> the plate thickness. > >> Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The > >method > >> I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. > >> Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! > >> > >> > >> Best, > >> Alec? > >> > >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via > >Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your > >wire/stick/Tig > >> will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID > >of the > >> hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching > >your > >> first pass.Rick? > >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled > >.?Brian > >> > >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > >> > >> From: Private via Personal_Submersibles >org> > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > >> org> > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > >> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 > >> > >> Hi David, > >> Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was > >my > >> "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you > >can > >> avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only > >need > >> one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of > >the > >> cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a > >good > >> point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding > >yourself or > >> contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help > >from Dan > >> Lance. > >> Best, > >> Alec > >> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via > >Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hi David, > >> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank > >fabricator > >> to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine > >came > >> machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature > >> external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design > >will > >> feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. > >This > >> will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat > >> pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. > >> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > >> Greg Cottrell > >> > >> From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > >> > >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > >> org> > >> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > >> > >> Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in > >> California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I > >will be > >> using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 > >Ratio > >> ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od > >ring > >> shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first > >hull > >> section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding > >condition > >> with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. > >I'm > >> curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 > >to have > >> it shipped to northern California from southern California. even > >though its > >> only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more > >than $5 > >> hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), > >I > >> might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. > >Any > >> thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > >> > >> Best Regards, > >> David Colombo > >> > >> 804 College Ave > >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > >> (707) 536-1424 > >> www.SeaQuestor.com > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > >> "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > >> !!!!!!! > >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth > >wrote: > >> > >> Hi Roberto, > >> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, > >beveled, and > >> code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to > >make a > >> flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set > >up a > >> project page or something so we can follow progress! > >> > >> Best, > >> Alec > >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via > >Personal_Submersibles > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head > >> selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled > >,code, > >> non code, > >> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > >> ______________________________ _________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ______________________________ _________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > >> > >> > >> > >> ______________________________ _________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ______________________________ _________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > >> > >> ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles > >> mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. > >orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > >> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles______________________________ > >> _________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > >> > >> > >> ______________________________ _________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > >> > >> > >> > >> ______________________________ _________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > >> > >> > >> ______________________________ _________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > >> > >> ______________________________ _________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > >> > >> ______________________________ _________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: > > >> 20170919/0b371519/attachment.html> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Subject: Digest Footer > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 20 12:58:33 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 16:58:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <7356e0c7-9a7d-4f7e-8305-3c5de3918232@email.android.com> References: <7356e0c7-9a7d-4f7e-8305-3c5de3918232@email.android.com> Message-ID: <56188029.243944.1505926713298@mail.yahoo.com> River,I agree the pressure test is of little value determining ?fatigue life. ?My goal was to establish if the engineering is good and if the welds would fail. ?Mission accomplished. ?Before the pressure test I was going to do an ultrasound test but decided to do a preliminary dye penetrant test. ?I figure why spend 1,000 dollars on a test that needs to be repeated after the pressure test. ?My next step is the ultrasound test and I have a hull section that was cut out for the port frame with the weld going through the middle. ?I will cut that piece up and bend it to prove the weld quality.Hank On Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 6:18:15 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Fatigue issues in weldments typically arise as a result of the geometry of the weld, where fatigue sensitive details such as doubler plates, sharp interfaces, inherent "cracks" at the apexes of partial penetration welds, overlapping weld toes etc. cause local amplification of the service stress ranges. Pressure hulls are inherently resistant to fatigue as a result of the mandated geometries, CJP welds, and barring the high strength alloys, the generally tougher nature of e.g. ASTM A516 Gr. 70 steel. I might go as far as to say that a PSub is unlikely to see enough high stress cycles within its lifetime to justify worrying about fatigue at all. Indeed, ABS only requires a fatigue analysis under specific conditions: >From the ABS rules (2017): Section 6/9: Fatigue? (2002) A? fatigue analysis? is? to? be submitted? when? it is? anticipated? that the life time? full range pressure? cycles? N will exceed? that obtained? from? the following? equation: N = [1160(3000? ?? T)/(Kf?? ?? 14500)]^2 where T = temperature? in? degrees? C? (degrees? F)? corresponding? to? application? of? the? cyclic? or repeated stress K? =? 5688 SI/MKS units (4? U.S.? units) f? = range? of? cyclic stress? kg/mm2? (lb/in2) Pressure cycles? of? less? than? full? pressure are to? be included? in? N? in? the ratio? p/P? where? p? is? the? actual pressure of? the? cycle? under? consideration? and? P? is? the design? pressure. Sean On September 19, 2017 12:39:42 PM MDT, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. ? All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool our money and buy an ultrasound machine... -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526rdolfi7 at gmail.com On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles at psubs. org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ? ? ? ? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-request@ psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-owner@ psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? ?1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Message-ID: <674133299.2545129. 1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" ?Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it ;-)Hank ? ? On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday ! ?:)Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would not want to encourage anything else.Hank ? ? On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ??Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even t! housandsof pounds p! ?er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " .Dan Lance On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank ? ? On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed. On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank ? ? On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! Best, Alec? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Private via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 Hi David, Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. Best, Alec On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell ? ? ? From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles ?To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ?Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_ Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles@ psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/ mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles__________________ ____________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 20 17:02:37 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 16:02:37 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] EBA Message-ID: <201709202102.v8KL2EmY066079@whoweb.com> Hey everyone. Here is the picture of the EBA. If you have any questions on specs or anything, let me know. The discounted price is only good till October. This is a certified system that KISS Rebreather has designed along with Pisces VI and has tested to the full extent. The coupon code is "PSUBS" -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 20 20:12:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 00:12:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095204294.563959.1505952745329@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, these are the batteries I bought a while back for Gamma. ?I think those hydro caps are not cheap. ?Gamma used to have a sealed battery compartment with an air flow system while charging.Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 6:09:12 PM MDTSubject: 6Volt Golf Cart Batteries QTY8, 48V AGM 6 Volt 225AH VMAX MB6 Maint free 6V http://www.ebay.com/itm/6Volt-Golf-Cart-Batteries-QTY8-48V-AGM-6-Volt-225AH-VMAX-MB6-Maint-free-6V-/271949917860?hash=item3f517a6ea4:g:9ZYAAOSwhQhY47SC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 20 21:22:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 21:22:52 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 91 In-Reply-To: References: <1249236537.4633005.1505917041248.JavaMail.root@md20.quartz.synacor.com> Message-ID: Yes , Dye penetrate only works on surface defects . In the hands of a skilled experienced technician ultrasound is amazing . The Tech can you what type of defect , how big , how deep etc,etc . No roping off the work area , and waiting to develop the film . I would go with the UT . Dan On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Jerry, > Sean or Dan may be able to correct me but what little I know about that > process mainly only shows cracks that have made their way to the surface > and not all the way to the root. > > Thought more costly, X ray and ultra sound which is more accurate than X > ray tell the whole story. > Rick > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 7:18 AM Jerry Koontz via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Weld inspection can be done with Magnetic particle inspection. It is an >> inexpensive method that works really well. I use the dry power and a car >> battery. Works good. >> >> Here is some more information on that method. >> >> Magnetic particle Inspection (MPI) is a non-destructive testing (NDT) >> process for detecting surface and slightly subsurface discontinuities in >> ferromagnetic materials such as iron, nickel, cobalt, and some of their >> alloys. The process puts a magnetic field into the part. The piece can be >> magnetized by direct or indirect magnetization. Direct magnetization occurs >> when the electric current is passed through the test object and a magnetic >> field is formed in the material. Indirect magnetization occurs when no >> electric current is passed through the test object, but a magnetic field is >> applied from an outside source. The magnetic lines of force are >> perpendicular to the direction of the electric current, which may be either >> alternating current (AC) or some form of direct current (DC) (rectified AC). >> >> The presence of a surface or subsurface discontinuity in the material >> allows the magnetic flux to leak, since air cannot support as much magnetic >> field per unit volume as metals. >> >> To identify a leak, ferrous particles, either dry or in a wet suspension, >> are applied to a part. These are attracted to an area of flux leakage and >> form what is known as an indication, which is evaluated to determine its >> nature, cause, and course of action, if any. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "via Personal_Submersibles" >> To: "personal submersibles" >> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 7:17:31 AM >> Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 91 >> >> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Heads Question (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 06:17:51 -0600 >> From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> Message-ID: <7356e0c7-9a7d-4f7e-8305-3c5de3918232 at email.android.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Fatigue issues in weldments typically arise as a result of the geometry >> of the weld, where fatigue sensitive details such as doubler plates, sharp >> interfaces, inherent "cracks" at the apexes of partial penetration welds, >> overlapping weld toes etc. cause local amplification of the service stress >> ranges. Pressure hulls are inherently resistant to fatigue as a result of >> the mandated geometries, CJP welds, and barring the high strength alloys, >> the generally tougher nature of e.g. ASTM A516 Gr. 70 steel. I might go as >> far as to say that a PSub is unlikely to see enough high stress cycles >> within its lifetime to justify worrying about fatigue at all. Indeed, ABS >> only requires a fatigue analysis under specific conditions: >> >> >From the ABS rules (2017): >> Section 6/9: >> >> Fatigue? (2002) A? fatigue analysis? is? to? be submitted? when? it is? >> anticipated? that the life time? full range pressure? cycles? N will >> exceed? that obtained? from? the following? equation: >> >> N = [1160(3000? ?? T)/(Kf?? ?? 14500)]^2 >> >> where >> >> T = temperature? in? degrees? C? (degrees? F)? corresponding? to? >> application? of? the? cyclic? or repeated stress >> K? =? 5688 SI/MKS units (4? U.S.? units) >> f? = range? of? cyclic stress? kg/mm2? (lb/in2) >> >> Pressure cycles? of? less? than? full? pressure are to? be included? in? >> N? in? the ratio? p/P? where? p? is? the? actual pressure of? the? cycle? >> under? consideration? and? P? is? the design? pressure. >> >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> On September 19, 2017 12:39:42 PM MDT, River Dolfi via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single >> >pressure >> >test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a >> >weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the >> >service >> >life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture >> >toughness >> >(aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each >> >cycle, >> >as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually >> >reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather >> >unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. >> > >> >All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool >> >our >> >money and buy an ultrasound machine... >> > >> >-River J. Dolfi >> > >> >412-997-2526 <(412)%20997-2526> >> >rdolfi7 at gmail.com >> > >> >On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < >> >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >> >> >http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> >> personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org >> >> >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> >> personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org >> >> >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> >> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." >> >> >> >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> >> >> 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Message: 1 >> >> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) >> >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> >> >> To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> >> Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> >> >> Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am >> >> not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a >> >60% >> >> duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and >> >> actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured >> >> material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the >> >experts but >> >> Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the >> >> opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day >> >long >> >> but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested >> >it a >> >> lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain >> >my >> >> pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld >> >sheet >> >> metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is >> >it >> >> ;-)Hank >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via >> >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty >> >factory >> >> fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel >> >where >> >> the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of >> >> penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it >> >still >> >> looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a >> >saying >> >> amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If >> >it is a >> >> critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always >> >have >> >> penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders >> >> sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a >> >pressure >> >> vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick >> >"pun >> >> intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally >> >or make >> >> darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? >> >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via >> >Personal_Submersibles < >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just >> >relying >> >> on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto >> >is if >> >> a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new >> >> everyday ! ?:)Dan >> >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >< >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading >> >the >> >> wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, >> >you are >> >> the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i >> >would >> >> not want to encourage anything else.Hank >> >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via >> >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state >> >for >> >> the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " >> >Short >> >> Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to >> >> consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before >> >doing >> >> so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( >> >short arc >> >> ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , >> >when >> >> used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature >> >and >> >> ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for >> >building >> >> pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an >> >inherent >> >> tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a >> >northern >> >> latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the >> >upper >> >> 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well >> >> documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom >> >pressure of >> >> hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p! >> >> er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on >> >the >> >> first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the >> >proverbial " >> >> one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of >> >> security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified >> >, >> >> experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that >> >spool >> >> of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert >> >welder from >> >> down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can >> >hurt >> >> you " .Dan Lance >> >> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >< >> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I >> >hear >> >> all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to >> >crank >> >> er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you >> >introduce >> >> parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need >> >sufficient >> >> penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded >> >Elementary >> >> 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to >> >1,250 >> >> psi.Hank >> >> On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via >> >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using >> >mig on >> >> a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always >> >heard >> >> from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not >> >for jobs >> >> like full penetration where quality trumps speed. >> >> On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the >> >inside >> >> then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, >> >the >> >> external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you >> >started >> >> with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big >> >difference is >> >> guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are >> >> professional welders.Hank >> >> On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via >> >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the >> >sharp >> >> end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An >> >air gap >> >> of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. >> >> 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the >> >air >> >> gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root >> >pass. >> >> Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny >> >U >> >> shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities >> >> whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until >> >meeting >> >> the plate thickness. >> >> Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The >> >method >> >> I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. >> >> Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! >> >> >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec? >> >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via >> >Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your >> >wire/stick/Tig >> >> will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID >> >of the >> >> hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching >> >your >> >> first pass.Rick? >> >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled >> >.?Brian >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: >> >> >> >> From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > >org> >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> >> org> >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> >> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 >> >> >> >> Hi David, >> >> Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was >> >my >> >> "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you >> >can >> >> avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only >> >need >> >> one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of >> >the >> >> cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a >> >good >> >> point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding >> >yourself or >> >> contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help >> >from Dan >> >> Lance. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via >> >Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi David, >> >> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank >> >fabricator >> >> to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine >> >came >> >> machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature >> >> external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design >> >will >> >> feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. >> >This >> >> will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat >> >> pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. >> >> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". >> >> Greg Cottrell >> >> >> >> From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles >> >> >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> >> org> >> >> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> >> >> >> Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in >> >> California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I >> >will be >> >> using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 >> >Ratio >> >> ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od >> >ring >> >> shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first >> >hull >> >> section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding >> >condition >> >> with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. >> >I'm >> >> curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 >> >to have >> >> it shipped to northern California from southern California. even >> >though its >> >> only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more >> >than $5 >> >> hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), >> >I >> >> might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. >> >Any >> >> thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> David Colombo >> >> >> >> 804 College Ave >> >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> >> (707) 536-1424 >> >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not >> >> "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". >> >> !!!!!!! >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth >> >wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Roberto, >> >> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, >> >beveled, and >> >> code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to >> >make a >> >> flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set >> >up a >> >> project page or something so we can follow progress! >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via >> >Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head >> >> selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled >> >,code, >> >> non code, >> >> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> >> 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 20 21:47:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 18:47:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <20170920184751.F1BF8821@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 20 21:48:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 21:48:00 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <56188029.243944.1505926713298@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7356e0c7-9a7d-4f7e-8305-3c5de3918232@email.android.com> <56188029.243944.1505926713298@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I would suggest that you take the hull section that was cut from your port frame and send it to a Materials Test Lab . ( probably the same company that is going to do your ultrasound can do it ) . Have them do a " Guided Bend Test " on the coupons they cut from it . If you have it done professionally you will have unequivocal proof of your weld integrity . The lab is well practised in this type of test and has all the proper equipment . Without the coupon guide/bending jig that fits in the hydraulic press it is difficult for an individual to get reliable results . When you send your sample to the lab ask them to do " Side Bends " on the coupons that they cut from your welded plate instead of "Face" and "Root" bends . Performing side bends puts you solidly in the realm of the rigorously high standards of ASME PVHO . With a design depth of 914 meters (3000fsw) you are in the big leagues now and the peace of mind that comes from a professionally done test will be priceless . Dan On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:58 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > River, > I agree the pressure test is of little value determining fatigue life. > My goal was to establish if the engineering is good and if the welds would > fail. Mission accomplished. Before the pressure test I was going to do an > ultrasound test but decided to do a preliminary dye penetrant test. I > figure why spend 1,000 dollars on a test that needs to be repeated after > the pressure test. My next step is the ultrasound test and I have a hull > section that was cut out for the port frame with the weld going through the > middle. I will cut that piece up and bend it to prove the weld quality. > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 6:18:15 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Fatigue issues in weldments typically arise as a result of the geometry of > the weld, where fatigue sensitive details such as doubler plates, sharp > interfaces, inherent "cracks" at the apexes of partial penetration welds, > overlapping weld toes etc. cause local amplification of the service stress > ranges. Pressure hulls are inherently resistant to fatigue as a result of > the mandated geometries, CJP welds, and barring the high strength alloys, > the generally tougher nature of e.g. ASTM A516 Gr. 70 steel. I might go as > far as to say that a PSub is unlikely to see enough high stress cycles > within its lifetime to justify worrying about fatigue at all. Indeed, ABS > only requires a fatigue analysis under specific conditions: > > From the ABS rules (2017): > Section 6/9: > > Fatigue (2002) A fatigue analysis is to be submitted when it is > anticipated that the life time full range pressure cycles N will > exceed that obtained from the following equation: > > N = [1160(3000 ? T)/(Kf? ? 14500)]^2 > > where > > T = temperature in degrees C (degrees F) corresponding to > application of the cyclic or repeated stress > K = 5688 SI/MKS units (4 U.S. units) > f? = range of cyclic stress kg/mm2 (lb/in2) > > Pressure cycles of less than full pressure are to be included in > N in the ratio p/P where p is the actual pressure of the cycle > under consideration and P is the design pressure. > > Sean > > > On September 19, 2017 12:39:42 PM MDT, River Dolfi via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure > test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a > weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service > life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness > (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, > as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually > reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather > unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. > > All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool > our money and buy an ultrasound machine... > > -River J. Dolfi > > 412-997-2526 <(412)%20997-2526> > rdolfi7 at gmail.com > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs. org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request@ psubs.org > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner@ psubs.org > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Message-ID: <674133299.2545129. 1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com > <674133299.2545129.1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am > not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% > duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and > actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured > material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but > Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the > opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long > but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a > lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my > pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet > metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it > ;-)Hank > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory > fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where > the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of > penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still > looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying > amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a > critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have > penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders > sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure > vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun > intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make > darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying > on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if > a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new > everyday ! ?:)Dan > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the > wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are > the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would > not want to encourage anything else.Hank > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for > the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short > Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to > consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing > so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc > ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when > used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and > ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building > pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent > tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern > latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper > 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well > documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of > hundreds maybe even t! housands of pounds p! > er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the > first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " > one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of > security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , > experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool > of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from > down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt > you " .Dan Lance > On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear > all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank > er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce > parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient > penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary > 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 > psi.Hank > On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on > a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard > from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs > like full penetration where quality trumps speed. > On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside > then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the > external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started > with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is > guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are > professional welders.Hank > On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp > end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap > of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. > 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air > gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. > Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U > shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities > whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting > the plate thickness. > Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method > I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. > Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! > > > Best, > Alec? > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig > will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the > hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your > first pass.Rick? > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 > > Hi David, > Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my > "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can > avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need > one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the > cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good > point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or > contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan > Lance. > Best, > Alec > On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi David, > In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator > to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came > machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature > external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will > feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This > will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat > pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. > Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > Greg Cottrell > > From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > > Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in > California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be > using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio > ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring > shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull > section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition > with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm > curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have > it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its > only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 > hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I > might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any > thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > !!!!!!! > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > Hi Roberto, > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and > code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a > flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a > project page or something so we can follow progress! > > Best, > Alec > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head > selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, > non code, > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________Personal_ Submersibles > mailing listPersonal_Submersibles@ psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/ > mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ > submersibles__________________ ____________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: submersibles/attachments/ 20170919/0b371519/attachment. html > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 82 > ****************************** *********************** > > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 21 07:55:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 11:55:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <7356e0c7-9a7d-4f7e-8305-3c5de3918232@email.android.com> <56188029.243944.1505926713298@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <963460222.748815.1505994943632@mail.yahoo.com> Dan,That is a good idea, I have done a side bend test on a sample quite a while ago but that was 1\2 inch material so pretty easy to bend. ?I just built a jig to hold it from tipping over. ? My Ultrasound guy is a portable operation, and I am not sure he can do the bending. ?I am sure there is a place in nearby Calgary or Edmonton. ?The sample is quite big at 16 inches in diameter, so I have a 16 inch weld. ?You already know that I have to do a bend myself because that is the kinda guy that I am ;-) ? ?I can use 1\2 the sample for my own testing and the other half can be done in a proper facility. ?I am really glad now that I welded the entire thing and then cut out the port.?Hank On Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 7:48:29 PM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I would suggest that you take the hull section that was cut from your port frame and send it to a Materials Test Lab . ( probably the same company that is going to do your ultrasound can do it ) . Have them do a " Guided Bend Test " on the coupons they cut from it .? If you have it done professionally you will have unequivocal proof of your weld integrity . The lab is well practised in this type of test and has all the proper equipment . Without the coupon guide/bending jig that fits in the hydraulic press it is difficult for an individual to get reliable results .? When you send your sample to the lab ask them to do " Side Bends " on the coupons that they cut from your welded plate instead of ?"Face" and ?"Root" bends . Performing side bends puts you solidly in the realm of the rigorously high standards of ASME PVHO .? With a design depth of 914 meters (3000fsw) you are ?in the big leagues now and the peace of mind that comes from a professionally ?done test will be priceless .Dan On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:58 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: River,I agree the pressure test is of little value determining ?fatigue life.? My goal was to establish if the engineering is good and if the welds would fail.? Mission accomplished.? Before the pressure test I was going to do an ultrasound test but decided to do a preliminary dye penetrant test.? I figure why spend 1,000 dollars on a test that needs to be repeated after the pressure test.? My next step is the ultrasound test and I have a hull section that was cut out for the port frame with the weld going through the middle.? I will cut that piece up and bend it to prove the weld quality.Hank On Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 6:18:15 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Fatigue issues in weldments typically arise as a result of the geometry of the weld, where fatigue sensitive details such as doubler plates, sharp interfaces, inherent "cracks" at the apexes of partial penetration welds, overlapping weld toes etc. cause local amplification of the service stress ranges. Pressure hulls are inherently resistant to fatigue as a result of the mandated geometries, CJP welds, and barring the high strength alloys, the generally tougher nature of e.g. ASTM A516 Gr. 70 steel. I might go as far as to say that a PSub is unlikely to see enough high stress cycles within its lifetime to justify worrying about fatigue at all. Indeed, ABS only requires a fatigue analysis under specific conditions: >From the ABS rules (2017): Section 6/9: Fatigue? (2002) A? fatigue analysis? is? to? be submitted? when? it is? anticipated? that the life time? full range pressure? cycles? N will exceed? that obtained? from? the following? equation: N = [1160(3000? ?? T)/(Kf?? ?? 14500)]^2 where T = temperature? in? degrees? C? (degrees? F)? corresponding? to? application? of? the? cyclic? or repeated stress K? =? 5688 SI/MKS units (4? U.S.? units) f? = range? of? cyclic stress? kg/mm2? (lb/in2) Pressure cycles? of? less? than? full? pressure are to? be included? in? N? in? the ratio? p/P? where? p? is? the? actual pressure of? the? cycle? under? consideration? and? P? is? the design? pressure. Sean On September 19, 2017 12:39:42 PM MDT, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. ? All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool our money and buy an ultrasound machine... -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526rdolfi7 at gmail.com On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles at psubs. org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ? ? ? ? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-request@ psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-owner@ psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? ?1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Message-ID: <674133299.2545129. 1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" ?Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it ;-)Hank ? ? On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday ! ?:)Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would not want to encourage anything else.Hank ? ? On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ??Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even t! housandsof pounds p! ?er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " .Dan Lance On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank ? ? On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed. On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank ? ? On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! Best, Alec? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Private via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 Hi David, Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. Best, Alec On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell ? ? ? From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles ?To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ?Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_ Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles@ psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/ mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles__________________ ____________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 21 09:32:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 09:32:48 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: <963460222.748815.1505994943632@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7356e0c7-9a7d-4f7e-8305-3c5de3918232@email.android.com> <56188029.243944.1505926713298@mail.yahoo.com> <963460222.748815.1505994943632@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, It would be a good idea to contact the testing lab before you cut up your plate . You need to find out from them the minimum size sample plate they need in order to do a proper test . ( 8" x 8" , 10" x 10" etc , etc ) . Dan On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 7:55 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Dan, > That is a good idea, I have done a side bend test on a sample quite a > while ago but that was 1\2 inch material so pretty easy to bend. I just > built a jig to hold it from tipping over. My Ultrasound guy is a portable > operation, and I am not sure he can do the bending. I am sure there is a > place in nearby Calgary or Edmonton. The sample is quite big at 16 inches > in diameter, so I have a 16 inch weld. You already know that I have to do > a bend myself because that is the kinda guy that I am ;-) I can use 1\2 > the sample for my own testing and the other half can be done in a proper > facility. > I am really glad now that I welded the entire thing and then cut out the > port. > Hank > > > On Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 7:48:29 PM MDT, Daniel Lance via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > I would suggest that you take the hull section that was cut from your port > frame and send it to a Materials Test Lab . ( probably the same company > that is going to do your ultrasound can do it ) . Have them do a " Guided > Bend Test " on the coupons they cut from it . > If you have it done professionally you will have unequivocal proof of > your weld integrity . The lab is well practised in this type of test and > has all the proper equipment . Without the coupon guide/bending jig that > fits in the hydraulic press it is difficult for an individual to get > reliable results . > When you send your sample to the lab ask them to do " Side Bends " on > the coupons that they cut from your welded plate instead of "Face" and > "Root" bends . Performing side bends puts you solidly in the realm of the > rigorously high standards of ASME PVHO . > With a design depth of 914 meters (3000fsw) you are in the big leagues > now and the peace of mind that comes from a professionally done test will > be priceless . > Dan > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:58 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > River, > I agree the pressure test is of little value determining fatigue life. > My goal was to establish if the engineering is good and if the welds would > fail. Mission accomplished. Before the pressure test I was going to do an > ultrasound test but decided to do a preliminary dye penetrant test. I > figure why spend 1,000 dollars on a test that needs to be repeated after > the pressure test. My next step is the ultrasound test and I have a hull > section that was cut out for the port frame with the weld going through the > middle. I will cut that piece up and bend it to prove the weld quality. > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 6:18:15 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Fatigue issues in weldments typically arise as a result of the geometry of > the weld, where fatigue sensitive details such as doubler plates, sharp > interfaces, inherent "cracks" at the apexes of partial penetration welds, > overlapping weld toes etc. cause local amplification of the service stress > ranges. Pressure hulls are inherently resistant to fatigue as a result of > the mandated geometries, CJP welds, and barring the high strength alloys, > the generally tougher nature of e.g. ASTM A516 Gr. 70 steel. I might go as > far as to say that a PSub is unlikely to see enough high stress cycles > within its lifetime to justify worrying about fatigue at all. Indeed, ABS > only requires a fatigue analysis under specific conditions: > > From the ABS rules (2017): > Section 6/9: > > Fatigue (2002) A fatigue analysis is to be submitted when it is > anticipated that the life time full range pressure cycles N will > exceed that obtained from the following equation: > > N = [1160(3000 ? T)/(Kf? ? 14500)]^2 > > where > > T = temperature in degrees C (degrees F) corresponding to > application of the cyclic or repeated stress > K = 5688 SI/MKS units (4 U.S. units) > f? = range of cyclic stress kg/mm2 (lb/in2) > > Pressure cycles of less than full pressure are to be included in > N in the ratio p/P where p is the actual pressure of the cycle > under consideration and P is the design pressure. > > Sean > > > On September 19, 2017 12:39:42 PM MDT, River Dolfi via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure > test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a > weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service > life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness > (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, > as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually > reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather > unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. > > All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool > our money and buy an ultrasound machine... > > -River J. Dolfi > > 412-997-2526 > rdolfi7 at gmail.com > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs. org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request@ psubs.org > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner@ psubs.org > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > > To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Message-ID: <674133299.2545129. 1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com > <674133299.2545129.1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am > not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% > duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and > actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured > material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but > Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the > opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long > but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a > lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my > pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet > metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it > ;-)Hank > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory > fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where > the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of > penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still > looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying > amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a > critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have > penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders > sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure > vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun > intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make > darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying > on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if > a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new > everyday ! ?:)Dan > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the > wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are > the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would > not want to encourage anything else.Hank > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for > the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short > Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to > consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing > so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc > ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when > used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and > ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building > pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent > tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern > latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper > 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well > documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of > hundreds maybe even t! housands of pounds p! > er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the > first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " > one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of > security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , > experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool > of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from > down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt > you " .Dan Lance > On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear > all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank > er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce > parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient > penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary > 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 > psi.Hank > On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on > a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard > from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs > like full penetration where quality trumps speed. > On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside > then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the > external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started > with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is > guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are > professional welders.Hank > On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp > end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap > of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. > 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air > gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. > Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U > shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities > whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting > the plate thickness. > Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method > I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. > Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! > > > Best, > Alec? > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig > will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the > hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your > first pass.Rick? > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 > > Hi David, > Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my > "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can > avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need > one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the > cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good > point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or > contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan > Lance. > Best, > Alec > On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi David, > In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator > to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came > machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature > external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will > feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This > will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat > pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. > Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". > Greg Cottrell > > From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question > > Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in > California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be > using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio > ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring > shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull > section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition > with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm > curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have > it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its > only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 > hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I > might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any > thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not > "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". > !!!!!!! > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > > Hi Roberto, > I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and > code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a > flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a > project page or something so we can follow progress! > > Best, > Alec > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head > selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, > non code, > Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________Personal_ Submersibles > mailing listPersonal_Submersibles@ psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/ > mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ > submersibles__________________ ____________ _________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: submersibles/attachments/ 20170919/0b371519/attachment. html > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 82 > ****************************** *********************** > > > ------------------------------ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 21 09:48:58 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 09:48:58 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <7356e0c7-9a7d-4f7e-8305-3c5de3918232@email.android.com> <56188029.243944.1505926713298@mail.yahoo.com> <963460222.748815.1505994943632@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Before you do your own test I would recommend that you ask the Lab if you can be present when they process your sample in their facility . I think this experience will be very helpful for you on how to properly setup and execute a bend test based on industry standards . The pictures that you sent to me of your past attempts at DIY did not come even close . Dan On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Daniel Lance wrote: > Hank, > It would be a good idea to contact the testing lab before you cut up your > plate . You need to find out from them the minimum size sample plate they > need in order to do a proper test . ( 8" x 8" , 10" x 10" etc , etc ) . > Dan > > On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 7:55 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Dan, >> That is a good idea, I have done a side bend test on a sample quite a >> while ago but that was 1\2 inch material so pretty easy to bend. I just >> built a jig to hold it from tipping over. My Ultrasound guy is a portable >> operation, and I am not sure he can do the bending. I am sure there is a >> place in nearby Calgary or Edmonton. The sample is quite big at 16 inches >> in diameter, so I have a 16 inch weld. You already know that I have to do >> a bend myself because that is the kinda guy that I am ;-) I can use 1\2 >> the sample for my own testing and the other half can be done in a proper >> facility. >> I am really glad now that I welded the entire thing and then cut out the >> port. >> Hank >> >> >> On Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 7:48:29 PM MDT, Daniel Lance via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> I would suggest that you take the hull section that was cut from your >> port frame and send it to a Materials Test Lab . ( probably the same >> company that is going to do your ultrasound can do it ) . Have them do a " >> Guided Bend Test " on the coupons they cut from it . >> If you have it done professionally you will have unequivocal proof of >> your weld integrity . The lab is well practised in this type of test and >> has all the proper equipment . Without the coupon guide/bending jig that >> fits in the hydraulic press it is difficult for an individual to get >> reliable results . >> When you send your sample to the lab ask them to do " Side Bends " on >> the coupons that they cut from your welded plate instead of "Face" and >> "Root" bends . Performing side bends puts you solidly in the realm of the >> rigorously high standards of ASME PVHO . >> With a design depth of 914 meters (3000fsw) you are in the big leagues >> now and the peace of mind that comes from a professionally done test will >> be priceless . >> Dan >> >> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:58 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> River, >> I agree the pressure test is of little value determining fatigue life. >> My goal was to establish if the engineering is good and if the welds would >> fail. Mission accomplished. Before the pressure test I was going to do an >> ultrasound test but decided to do a preliminary dye penetrant test. I >> figure why spend 1,000 dollars on a test that needs to be repeated after >> the pressure test. My next step is the ultrasound test and I have a hull >> section that was cut out for the port frame with the weld going through the >> middle. I will cut that piece up and bend it to prove the weld quality. >> Hank >> >> On Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 6:18:15 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> >> Fatigue issues in weldments typically arise as a result of the geometry >> of the weld, where fatigue sensitive details such as doubler plates, sharp >> interfaces, inherent "cracks" at the apexes of partial penetration welds, >> overlapping weld toes etc. cause local amplification of the service stress >> ranges. Pressure hulls are inherently resistant to fatigue as a result of >> the mandated geometries, CJP welds, and barring the high strength alloys, >> the generally tougher nature of e.g. ASTM A516 Gr. 70 steel. I might go as >> far as to say that a PSub is unlikely to see enough high stress cycles >> within its lifetime to justify worrying about fatigue at all. Indeed, ABS >> only requires a fatigue analysis under specific conditions: >> >> From the ABS rules (2017): >> Section 6/9: >> >> Fatigue (2002) A fatigue analysis is to be submitted when it is >> anticipated that the life time full range pressure cycles N will >> exceed that obtained from the following equation: >> >> N = [1160(3000 ? T)/(Kf? ? 14500)]^2 >> >> where >> >> T = temperature in degrees C (degrees F) corresponding to >> application of the cyclic or repeated stress >> K = 5688 SI/MKS units (4 U.S. units) >> f? = range of cyclic stress kg/mm2 (lb/in2) >> >> Pressure cycles of less than full pressure are to be included in >> N in the ratio p/P where p is the actual pressure of the cycle >> under consideration and P is the design pressure. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On September 19, 2017 12:39:42 PM MDT, River Dolfi via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure >> test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a >> weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service >> life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness >> (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, >> as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually >> reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather >> unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. >> >> All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool >> our money and buy an ultrasound machine... >> >> -River J. Dolfi >> >> 412-997-2526 >> rdolfi7 at gmail.com >> >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to >> personal_submersibles at psubs. org >> >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ >> submersibles >> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> personal_submersibles-request@ psubs.org >> >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> personal_submersibles-owner@ psubs.org >> >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> >> >> ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> > > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> Message-ID: <674133299.2545129. 1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com >> <674133299.2545129.1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am >> not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% >> duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and >> actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured >> material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but >> Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the >> opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long >> but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a >> lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my >> pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet >> metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it >> ;-)Hank >> >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory >> fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where >> the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of >> penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still >> looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying >> amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a >> critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have >> penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders >> sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure >> vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun >> intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make >> darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just >> relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My >> motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something >> new everyday ! ?:)Dan >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the >> wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are >> the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would >> not want to encourage anything else.Hank >> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for >> the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short >> Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to >> consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing >> so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc >> ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when >> used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and >> ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building >> pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent >> tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern >> latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper >> 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well >> documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of >> hundreds maybe even t! housands of pounds p! >> er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the >> first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " >> one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of >> security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , >> experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool >> of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from >> down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt >> you " .Dan Lance >> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > org > wrote: >> >> Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear >> all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank >> er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce >> parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient >> penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary >> 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 >> psi.Hank >> On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig >> on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard >> from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs >> like full penetration where quality trumps speed. >> On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the >> inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light >> material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as >> if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The >> big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because >> they are professional welders.Hank >> On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp >> end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap >> of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. >> 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air >> gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. >> Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U >> shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities >> whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting >> the plate thickness. >> Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The >> method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. >> Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! >> >> >> Best, >> Alec? >> >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig >> will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the >> hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your >> first pass.Rick? >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: >> >> From: Private via Personal_Submersibles > org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 >> >> Hi David, >> Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my >> "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can >> avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need >> one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the >> cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good >> point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or >> contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan >> Lance. >> Best, >> Alec >> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi David, >> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank >> fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. >> Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will >> feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design >> will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. >> This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat >> pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. >> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". >> Greg Cottrell >> >> From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question >> >> Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in >> California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be >> using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio >> ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring >> shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull >> section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition >> with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm >> curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have >> it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its >> only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 >> hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I >> might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any >> thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not >> "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". >> !!!!!!! >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: >> >> Hi Roberto, >> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, >> and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make >> a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a >> project page or something so we can follow progress! >> >> Best, >> Alec >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head >> selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, >> non code, >> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 21 13:10:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 17:10:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question In-Reply-To: References: <7356e0c7-9a7d-4f7e-8305-3c5de3918232@email.android.com> <56188029.243944.1505926713298@mail.yahoo.com> <963460222.748815.1505994943632@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1577986294.960374.1506013825748@mail.yahoo.com> Dan,I am not touching my sample piece until I have a solid plan with all the relevant information. ?This sample piece is the only means I have to prove the weld viability. ?I agree my bend tests were not done to ASME radius etc but they still did not break and the bends were a tighter radius causing more stress than ASME radius , just saying. ?;-)Hank On Thursday, September 21, 2017, 7:49:19 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Before you do your own test I would recommend that you ask the Lab if you can be present when they process your sample in their facility . I think this experience will be very helpful for you on how to properly setup and execute a bend test based on industry standards . The pictures that you sent to me of your past attempts at DIY did not come even close .Dan On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Daniel Lance wrote: Hank,It would be a good idea to contact the testing lab before you cut up your plate . You need to find out from them the minimum size sample plate they need in order to do a proper test . ?( 8" x 8" , 10" x 10" etc , etc ) .Dan On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 7:55 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Dan,That is a good idea, I have done a side bend test on a sample quite a while ago but that was 1\2 inch material so pretty easy to bend.? I just built a jig to hold it from tipping over. ? My Ultrasound guy is a portable operation, and I am not sure he can do the bending.? I am sure there is a place in nearby Calgary or Edmonton.? The sample is quite big at 16 inches in diameter, so I have a 16 inch weld.? You already know that I have to do a bend myself because that is the kinda guy that I am ;-) ? ?I can use 1\2 the sample for my own testing and the other half can be done in a proper facility. ?I am really glad now that I welded the entire thing and then cut out the port.?Hank On Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 7:48:29 PM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I would suggest that you take the hull section that was cut from your port frame and send it to a Materials Test Lab . ( probably the same company that is going to do your ultrasound can do it ) . Have them do a " Guided Bend Test " on the coupons they cut from it .? If you have it done professionally you will have unequivocal proof of your weld integrity . The lab is well practised in this type of test and has all the proper equipment . Without the coupon guide/bending jig that fits in the hydraulic press it is difficult for an individual to get reliable results .? When you send your sample to the lab ask them to do " Side Bends " on the coupons that they cut from your welded plate instead of ?"Face" and ?"Root" bends . Performing side bends puts you solidly in the realm of the rigorously high standards of ASME PVHO .? With a design depth of 914 meters (3000fsw) you are ?in the big leagues now and the peace of mind that comes from a professionally ?done test will be priceless .Dan On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:58 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: River,I agree the pressure test is of little value determining ?fatigue life.? My goal was to establish if the engineering is good and if the welds would fail.? Mission accomplished.? Before the pressure test I was going to do an ultrasound test but decided to do a preliminary dye penetrant test.? I figure why spend 1,000 dollars on a test that needs to be repeated after the pressure test.? My next step is the ultrasound test and I have a hull section that was cut out for the port frame with the weld going through the middle.? I will cut that piece up and bend it to prove the weld quality.Hank On Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 6:18:15 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Fatigue issues in weldments typically arise as a result of the geometry of the weld, where fatigue sensitive details such as doubler plates, sharp interfaces, inherent "cracks" at the apexes of partial penetration welds, overlapping weld toes etc. cause local amplification of the service stress ranges. Pressure hulls are inherently resistant to fatigue as a result of the mandated geometries, CJP welds, and barring the high strength alloys, the generally tougher nature of e.g. ASTM A516 Gr. 70 steel. I might go as far as to say that a PSub is unlikely to see enough high stress cycles within its lifetime to justify worrying about fatigue at all. Indeed, ABS only requires a fatigue analysis under specific conditions: >From the ABS rules (2017): Section 6/9: Fatigue? (2002) A? fatigue analysis? is? to? be submitted? when? it is? anticipated? that the life time? full range pressure? cycles? N will exceed? that obtained? from? the following? equation: N = [1160(3000? ?? T)/(Kf?? ?? 14500)]^2 where T = temperature? in? degrees? C? (degrees? F)? corresponding? to? application? of? the? cyclic? or repeated stress K? =? 5688 SI/MKS units (4? U.S.? units) f? = range? of? cyclic stress? kg/mm2? (lb/in2) Pressure cycles? of? less? than? full? pressure are to? be included? in? N? in? the ratio? p/P? where? p? is? the? actual pressure of? the? cycle? under? consideration? and? P? is? the design? pressure. Sean On September 19, 2017 12:39:42 PM MDT, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. ? All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool our money and buy an ultrasound machine... -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526rdolfi7 at gmail.com On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles at psubs. org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ? ? ? ? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-request@ psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-owner@ psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? ?1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Message-ID: <674133299.2545129. 1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" ?Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it ;-)Hank ? ? On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick? On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday ! ?:)Dan On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would not want to encourage anything else.Hank ? ? On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ??Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even t! housandsof pounds p! ?er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " .Dan Lance On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank ? ? On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed. On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank ? ? On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts. 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness. Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem. Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight! Best, Alec? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick? On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Private via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400 Hi David, Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance. Best, Alec On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David, In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips. Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank". Greg Cottrell ? ? ? From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles ?To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ?Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM ?Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself". !!!!!!! On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Roberto, I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress! Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code, Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd ) ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_ Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles@ psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/ mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles__________________ ____________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 82 ****************************** *********************** Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 22 11:08:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 15:08:53 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? Message-ID: After several attempts to clean up and reinstall Harold's 75 amp 36v rear thruster, it's clearer done. The motor smokes (tried it without the prop installed and hanging out of the housing) and then pops its breaker. Not good. It looks like the housing leaked for many years before I bought the sub and was a mess when I opened it up. I have all new seals for it. There's a local outfit that could rebuild the motor. I haven't yet approached them about a price. I'm leaning toward replacing all of the thrusters with 12v. That would also mean redoing the wiring harness as all of the thrusters are 36v and I'd be done diving this season. Simply reinstalling the 36v would be the easiest. What would you do? Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 22 11:32:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 11:32:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If I had to do a complete replacement I would use trolling motors, and definitely 36 volt instead of 12. It's only a third the current for the same power, which makes a big difference in lots of good ways. But your case is special, because you already have the hard cans, props, linkages, and through-hulls. If you put in trolling motors you'd also have to do things like air or oil compensate them, probably get new through-hulls, etc. So given the bird in hand, it's probably worth just looking around for a new motor that can fit in the existing can, or have the old one fixed. Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:08 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > After several attempts to clean up and reinstall Harold's 75 amp 36v rear > thruster, it's clearer done. The motor smokes (tried it without the prop > installed and hanging out of the housing) and then pops its breaker. Not > good. It looks like the housing leaked for many years before I bought the > sub and was a mess when I opened it up. I have all new seals for it. > > There's a local outfit that could rebuild the motor. I haven't yet > approached them about a price. > > I'm leaning toward replacing all of the thrusters with 12v. That would > also mean redoing the wiring harness as all of the thrusters are 36v and > I'd be done diving this season. Simply reinstalling the 36v would be the > easiest. > > What would you do? > > Get Outlook for Android > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 22 17:46:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 22:46:19 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01d333ec$3a0e9910$ae2bcb30$@net> Hi Ref 36 volt motor I am using a motor which is powered by thirty six volts in Casper 2 the motor is a Agni 95 and are available on the inter net. This motor is very powerful and drives my sub I would recommend you look at this motor as it is compact only eight inches across and five inches in depth I would recommend you take a look/ Regards Graham Bayliss From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: 22 September 2017 16:32 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? If I had to do a complete replacement I would use trolling motors, and definitely 36 volt instead of 12. It's only a third the current for the same power, which makes a big difference in lots of good ways. But your case is special, because you already have the hard cans, props, linkages, and through-hulls. If you put in trolling motors you'd also have to do things like air or oil compensate them, probably get new through-hulls, etc. So given the bird in hand, it's probably worth just looking around for a new motor that can fit in the existing can, or have the old one fixed. Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:08 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: After several attempts to clean up and reinstall Harold's 75 amp 36v rear thruster, it's clearer done. The motor smokes (tried it without the prop installed and hanging out of the housing) and then pops its breaker. Not good. It looks like the housing leaked for many years before I bought the sub and was a mess when I opened it up. I have all new seals for it. There's a local outfit that could rebuild the motor. I haven't yet approached them about a price. I'm leaning toward replacing all of the thrusters with 12v. That would also mean redoing the wiring harness as all of the thrusters are 36v and I'd be done diving this season. Simply reinstalling the 36v would be the easiest. What would you do? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 22 19:19:50 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 23:19:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bend test References: <532094454.612649.1506122390575.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <532094454.612649.1506122390575@mail.yahoo.com> Hi again, correction this is a face bend, I was adjusting and accidentally turned it, it was supposed to be the toughest bend witch is sideways. ?Oh well a good start anyways.I need to find the proper size to cut the coupons and then I can have the sample cut and I will bend in all three directions.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 22 19:59:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 23:59:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bend test References: <1079641628.625154.1506124745567.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1079641628.625154.1506124745567@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I tried sending pictures of my bend test from my Elementary 3000 sample. ?I was rather confused and thought I may have not bent it sideways but in fact I was right the first time and it is bent sideways. ?I cut my sample into a square so it will clamp into a band saw. ?I took a piece off the side and cut it 3\4 inches wide, so the sample is 2\4 by 1 inch thick. ?I bent it over a 1.5 inch mandrel and there is no cracking at all. ?There is a wierd thing though, ?before the bend you could not see where the weld was but after the bend you could see a slightly raised area where the weld met the parent metal. ?I filed that tine bump smooth and there is no cracking or anything. ?Wierd.HankI will send a picture separately?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 22 20:20:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 00:20:21 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bend test In-Reply-To: <1079641628.625154.1506124745567@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1079641628.625154.1506124745567.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1079641628.625154.1506124745567@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank Did you look up all the spacifics the labs do for that spacific type of test and replicate it? Rick On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 5:03 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > I tried sending pictures of my bend test from my Elementary 3000 sample. > I was rather confused and thought I may have not bent it sideways but in > fact I was right the first time and it is bent sideways. I cut my sample > into a square so it will clamp into a band saw. I took a piece off the > side and cut it 3\4 inches wide, so the sample is 2\4 by 1 inch thick. I > bent it over a 1.5 inch mandrel and there is no cracking at all. There is > a wierd thing though, before the bend you could not see where the weld was > but after the bend you could see a slightly raised area where the weld met > the parent metal. I filed that tine bump smooth and there is no cracking > or anything. Wierd. > Hank > I will send a picture separately > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 22 20:40:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 00:40:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bend test In-Reply-To: References: <1079641628.625154.1506124745567.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1079641628.625154.1506124745567@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1043716782.618088.1506127214963@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,No, I am having trouble finding exact details. ?I did find that for the yield strength it must be bent over a 1.5 inch mandrel. ?Also if the piece is being bent sideways it must be full thickness but no detail on width. ?Also if the sample is flame cut the HAZ must be ground off and I did that. ?If the sample is sheered off then the work hardened surface must be ground off. ?I want to cut the next sample with a band saw to ensure the flame cut has no effect. ?I did not bend it completely into a U shape because the guide bars are set for 1 inch by 1 inch sample. ?I am going to make a video of the next bend that will show the weld area being bent sideways and I will set the rig up to ensure it bends it completely into a U shape. ?As you can imagine I am delighted with the results so far, and realize that I have to ?make an adjustment to create the perfect U shape. ?That will be easily done.Hank On Friday, September 22, 2017, 6:20:49 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank?Did you look up all the spacifics the labs do for that spacific type of test and replicate it??Rick? On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 5:03 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I tried sending pictures of my bend test from my Elementary 3000 sample.? I was rather confused and thought I may have not bent it sideways but in fact I was right the first time and it is bent sideways.? I cut my sample into a square so it will clamp into a band saw.? I took a piece off the side and cut it 3\4 inches wide, so the sample is 2\4 by 1 inch thick.? I bent it over a 1.5 inch mandrel and there is no cracking at all.? There is a wierd thing though, ?before the bend you could not see where the weld was but after the bend you could see a slightly raised area where the weld met the parent metal.? I filed that tine bump smooth and there is no cracking or anything.? Wierd.HankI will send a picture separately?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 22 21:49:00 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 21:49:00 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] bend test In-Reply-To: <1079641628.625154.1506124745567@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1079641628.625154.1506124745567.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1079641628.625154.1506124745567@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That raised section is probably the difference between the density of the weld metal and the parent metal . The parent metal is more dense because of all the different processes it goes through when it is being manufactured . When it's molten It's poured into an ingot and then it goes through rolling mills to configure it into a plate . It goes through a lot of compression cycles . Obviously the weld deposition doesn't . On Sep 22, 2017 8:03 PM, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > I tried sending pictures of my bend test from my Elementary 3000 sample. > I was rather confused and thought I may have not bent it sideways but in > fact I was right the first time and it is bent sideways. I cut my sample > into a square so it will clamp into a band saw. I took a piece off the > side and cut it 3\4 inches wide, so the sample is 2\4 by 1 inch thick. I > bent it over a 1.5 inch mandrel and there is no cracking at all. There is > a wierd thing though, before the bend you could not see where the weld was > but after the bend you could see a slightly raised area where the weld met > the parent metal. I filed that tine bump smooth and there is no cracking > or anything. Wierd. > Hank > I will send a picture separately > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 23 09:37:27 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 13:37:27 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? Message-ID: Looking at the cost of a rebuild, if it's even possible, much less replacing given the machining involved for the drive shaft, decided to look into 36v trolling motors. If the swap works as well as it should, side thrusters will go the same way. Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 23 12:44:26 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 16:44:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: bend test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <510524641.822911.1506185066730@mail.yahoo.com> Hello All,Here is a short video of the results from a proper size coupon bend test with a saw cut coupon. ?This is part two, the actual bend test video will take hours to upload because I do not have a mp4 converter program. ?I will post that video as soon as it is done loading. ? Like to first test a ridge formed and I filed it off with no cracks. ?There is a small hole that formed but I am sure it is from the saw cut leaving a ridge. ?Enjoy!Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017, 10:38:00 AM MDTSubject: bend test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-maHoJBWvQ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2017-09-23 at 10.37 AM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19553 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 23 17:17:35 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 21:17:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: bent test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1555289132.927845.1506201456016@mail.yahoo.com> Bend process video, I can see now why the real bending tool has rollers instead of deflector bars. ?If you look closely as the coupon, the flaw was there from the start, it just opened up a bit.Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017, 3:15:16 PM MDTSubject: bent test -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2017-09-23 at 3.14 PM.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26482 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 23 19:59:15 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 23:59:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test lab References: <808397729.950598.1506211155062.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <808397729.950598.1506211155062@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,Can you recommend a test facility in Edmonton to test my welds? ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 27 18:15:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 22:15:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <547960955.29474.1506550543771@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Maybe you could post a picture of your motor and the damage. ?It might not be as bad as you think. ?You can rewind the motor yourself for under 50 dollars. ?I will be finished my first motor rewind tomorrow. ?It takes about 6 hr for one. ?Mind you I am not finished but it is going just fine. ?Hank On Saturday, September 23, 2017, 7:37:51 AM MDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looking at the cost of a rebuild, if it's even possible, much less replacing given the machining involved for the drive shaft, decided to look into 36v trolling motors. If the swap works as well as it should, side thrusters will go the same way. Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 27 18:22:43 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 15:22:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? Message-ID: <20170927152243.33A04685@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 27 19:17:40 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 23:17:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? In-Reply-To: <20170927152243.33A04685@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20170927152243.33A04685@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2039021588.58702.1506554260740@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,What wheel ???? LOLHank On Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 4:22:57 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? I have a new idea for the wheel !?Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 22:15:43 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Maybe you could post a picture of your motor and the damage. ?It might not be as bad as you think. ?You can rewind the motor yourself for under 50 dollars. ?I will be finished my first motor rewind tomorrow. ?It takes about 6 hr for one. ?Mind you I am not finished but it is going just fine. ?Hank On Saturday, September 23, 2017, 7:37:51 AM MDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looking at the cost of a rebuild, if it's even possible, much less replacing given the machining involved for the drive shaft, decided to look into 36v trolling motors. If the swap works as well as it should, side thrusters will go the same way. Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 27 22:07:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 19:07:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? Message-ID: <20170927190748.342A40DF@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 08:54:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 06:54:19 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test lab In-Reply-To: vuOfdzrjF2EQ9vuOgdC3Vj References: <808397729.950598.1506211155062.ref@mail.yahoo.com> vuOfdzrjF2EQ9vuOgdC3Vj Message-ID: Sorry Hank - I just caught this. What tests are you looking to have done? I'd offer to run them for you, but work is cracking down on use of the lab equipment for pet projects. I can inquire though. What do you need tested? Sean On September 23, 2017 5:59:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,Can you recommend a test facility in Edmonton to test my welds? >?Hank > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 10:00:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 14:00:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test lab In-Reply-To: References: <808397729.950598.1506211155062.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <334805534.395629.1506607203936@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean, Thank you,I am looking for a laboratory bend test. ?Honestly, I don't know what other tests should be done. ?I guess I am looking for a lab and advice as to what tests are needed. ?I have a good size specimen from the hull with a weld going through the middle.Hank On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 6:54:41 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sorry Hank - I just caught this. What tests are you looking to have done? I'd offer to run them for you, but work is cracking down on use of the lab equipment for pet projects. I can inquire though. What do you need tested? Sean On September 23, 2017 5:59:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,Can you recommend a test facility in Edmonton to test my welds? ?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 10:56:51 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 08:56:51 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test lab In-Reply-To: xZS4d9GbpAcmnxZS6dM5hH References: <808397729.950598.1506211155062.ref@mail.yahoo.com> xZS4d9GbpAcmnxZS6dM5hH Message-ID: <1c9ed279-e34f-4b33-a925-f2326756e075@email.android.com> Required testing is specified in the ABS rules. Have a look and see what applies. Sean On September 28, 2017 8:00:03 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Hi Sean, Thank you,I am looking for a laboratory bend test. ?Honestly, >I don't know what other tests should be done. ?I guess I am looking for >a lab and advice as to what tests are needed. ?I have a good size >specimen from the hull with a weld going through the middle.Hank >On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 6:54:41 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > >Sorry Hank - I just caught this. What tests are you looking to have >done? I'd offer to run them for you, but work is cracking down on use >of the lab equipment for pet projects. I can inquire though. What do >you need tested? > >Sean > > > >On September 23, 2017 5:59:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via >Personal_Submersibles wrote: >Sean,Can you recommend a test facility in Edmonton to test my welds? >?Hank > > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 14:27:55 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 18:27:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test lab In-Reply-To: <1c9ed279-e34f-4b33-a925-f2326756e075@email.android.com> References: <808397729.950598.1506211155062.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1c9ed279-e34f-4b33-a925-f2326756e075@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1551770750.7154.1506623275907@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Sean,I did not think that ABS would apply to me because of my weld method. ?Turns out that wire gas combinations are acceptable but require special testing ?rule 2-4-3\5.9 ?it will take me a while to find that rule ;-) ??Hank On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 8:57:18 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Required testing is specified in the ABS rules. Have a look and see what applies. Sean On September 28, 2017 8:00:03 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Sean, Thank you,I am looking for a laboratory bend test. ?Honestly, I don't know what other tests should be done. ?I guess I am looking for a lab and advice as to what tests are needed. ?I have a good size specimen from the hull with a weld going through the middle.Hank On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 6:54:41 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sorry Hank - I just caught this. What tests are you looking to have done? I'd offer to run them for you, but work is cracking down on use of the lab equipment for pet projects. I can inquire though. What do you need tested? Sean On September 23, 2017 5:59:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean,Can you recommend a test facility in Edmonton to test my welds? ?Hank Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 15:40:53 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 19:40:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine References: <931593731.55262.1506627653259.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <931593731.55262.1506627653259@mail.yahoo.com> Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine | | | | | | | | | | | Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine By Sara Clemence The British car company plans to begin revving its engines under water. | | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 15:52:59 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 08:52:59 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine In-Reply-To: <931593731.55262.1506627653259@mail.yahoo.com> References: <931593731.55262.1506627653259.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <931593731.55262.1506627653259@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Pete, I see they are partnering with Triton to do this, so imagine it's just a more sexier look to a Triton submersible. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 29/09/2017, at 8:40 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine > > > Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine > By Sara Clemence > The British car company plans to begin revving its engines under water. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 16:28:29 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 13:28:29 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine In-Reply-To: References: <931593731.55262.1506627653259.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <931593731.55262.1506627653259@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Did some one have the link to the plexiglass sphere submersibles made on the 70's using the plexiglass sections to form the sphere', is a navy document on pdf, i forgot the name, thank?s 2017-09-28 12:52 GMT-07:00 Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > Pete, > I see they are partnering with Triton to do this, so imagine > it's just a more sexier look to a Triton submersible. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 29/09/2017, at 8:40 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine > > > Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine > By Sara Clemence > The British car company plans to begin revving its engines under water. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 16:46:17 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 20:46:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine In-Reply-To: References: <931593731.55262.1506627653259.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <931593731.55262.1506627653259@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2125248379.100309.1506631577332@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Is that what your sub will look like?Hank On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 1:53:22 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pete,I see they are partnering with Triton to do this, so imagineit's just a more sexier look to a Triton submersible.Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/09/2017, at 8:40 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine | | | | | | | | | | | Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine By Sara Clemence The British car company plans to begin revving its engines under water. | | | | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 17:22:48 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 10:22:48 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine In-Reply-To: <2125248379.100309.1506631577332@mail.yahoo.com> References: <931593731.55262.1506627653259.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <931593731.55262.1506627653259@mail.yahoo.com> <2125248379.100309.1506631577332@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EF60FE0-CDA8-47E9-862A-226027F181CA@yahoo.com> Ha ha, not sure. With submarines their are a lot of functional requirements that will dictate the final design. I will try hard to make it an art work though! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 29/09/2017, at 9:46 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Is that what your sub will look like? > Hank > > On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 1:53:22 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Pete, > I see they are partnering with Triton to do this, so imagine > it's just a more sexier look to a Triton submersible. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 29/09/2017, at 8:40 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine >> >> >> Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine >> By Sara Clemence >> The British car company plans to begin revving its engines under water. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 17:28:42 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 21:28:42 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? Message-ID: It was a rusted mess. Went with an eBay score Minn Kota 36v 101lb thrust trolling motor. Ask Alec. I'm the king of eBay bargains. :-) I'll oil compensate it and stick a lead bar on the support to make up for the weight change. Plan to switch out the side ones this Winter with 50lb 12v. Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 18:00:21 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 11:00:21 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine In-Reply-To: References: <931593731.55262.1506627653259.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <931593731.55262.1506627653259@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <686DC0CF-0ECB-4B54-9C74-B3EA404DCDAB@yahoo.com> Roberto, it was called Nemo. Had pentagonal sections bonded. I am vague on whether there was one or more made. Here is a paper on the testing of it. http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/715345.pdf I recall mention of it in the Stachiw book. Handbook of Acrylics for Submersibles, Hyperbaric Chambers, and Aquaria Book by Jerry D. Stachiw. Did you get your free copy? Jon was advertising this! Hope this puts you on the right track. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 29/09/2017, at 9:28 AM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Did some one have the link to the plexiglass sphere submersibles made on the 70's using the plexiglass sections to form the sphere', is a navy document on pdf, i forgot the name, thank?s > > 2017-09-28 12:52 GMT-07:00 Alan via Personal_Submersibles : >> Pete, >> I see they are partnering with Triton to do this, so imagine >> it's just a more sexier look to a Triton submersible. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 29/09/2017, at 8:40 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine >>> >>> >>> Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine >>> By Sara Clemence >>> The British car company plans to begin revving its engines under water. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 19:38:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 19:38:06 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine Message-ID: <15ecadabb9a-c0b-393e9@webjas-vaa094.srv.aolmail.net> The first full size Nemo hull (66" OD) was tested to destruction (leaving a breathtakingly expensive pile of plexiglass in the bottom of the test tank). Hull number two was used for Nemo, which was an anchored, vertically mobile (on board winch), self powered observatory, man rated to 600 feet. It was little more than an experimental vehicle, and saw little service, all things considered. In any case, it was a huge design departure for its time, and is still on display somewhere or other, I forget where. It's covered extensively in Jerry Stachiw book. The evolutionary extension of Nemo was the 1st Johnson Sea Link hull. It was 4" thick instead of 2 1/2" but otherwise the same in geometry, fabrication, and bonding method. That hull was tank tested for manned service to 3000' feet but never used in practice beyond 1000'. Further study and lots of field experience taught us that it was a good thing, too. The 4" thickness lacked sufficient resistance to stress cracking at 3000'. Harbor Branch came within about a skinny inch of finding that out the hard way. Thus the 5 1/4" replacement hulls, similar to what Triton still uses today. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Sep 28, 2017 6:00 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine Roberto, it was called Nemo. Had pentagonal sections bonded. I am vague on whether there was one or more made. Here is a paper on the testing of it. http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/715345.pdf I recall mention of it in the Stachiw book. Handbook of Acrylics for Submersibles, Hyperbaric Chambers, and Aquaria Book by Jerry D. Stachiw. Did you get your free copy? Jon was advertising this! Hope this puts you on the right track. Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/09/2017, at 9:28 AM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Did some one have the link to the plexiglass sphere submersibles made on the 70's using the plexiglass sections to form the sphere', is a navy document on pdf, i forgot the name, thank?s 2017-09-28 12:52 GMT-07:00 Alan via Personal_Submersibles : Pete, I see they are partnering with Triton to do this, so imagine it's just a more sexier look to a Triton submersible. Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/09/2017, at 8:40 AM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine Aston Martin Has Unveiled a $4 Million Submarine By Sara Clemence The British car company plans to begin revving its engines under water. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 20:35:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 00:35:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2063501444.223336.1506645336686@mail.yahoo.com> What would we do without eBay.com ? ?I also get a lot of materials from our local dump. ?When metal comes to the dump it is put in a special area by itself, and the public can salvage\recycle anything that is not in the pile. ?I get lots of aluminum plate and tubing and shafting, ss bits and pieces, well all sorts of stuff. ?I just picked up two four foot long aluminum square tubes that will become manipulator members ;-)Hank On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 3:29:03 PM MDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It was a rusted mess. Went with an eBay score Minn Kota 36v 101lb thrust trolling motor. Ask Alec. I'm the king of eBay bargains.? :-) I'll oil compensate it and stick a lead bar on the support to make up for the weight change. Plan to switch out the side ones this Winter with 50lb 12v.? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 20:51:09 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 00:51:09 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? In-Reply-To: <2063501444.223336.1506645336686@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2063501444.223336.1506645336686@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank What size and wall thickness is the aluminum tube? Rick On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 5:40 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > What would we do without eBay.com ? I also get a lot of materials from > our local dump. When metal comes to the dump it is put in a special area > by itself, and the public can salvage\recycle anything that is not in the > pile. I get lots of aluminum plate and tubing and shafting, ss bits and > pieces, well all sorts of stuff. I just picked up two four foot long > aluminum square tubes that will become manipulator members ;-) > Hank > > On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 3:29:03 PM MDT, Brian Hughes via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > It was a rusted mess. Went with an eBay score Minn Kota 36v 101lb thrust > trolling motor. Ask Alec. I'm the king of eBay bargains. :-) > > I'll oil compensate it and stick a lead bar on the support to make up for > the weight change. Plan to switch out the side ones this Winter with 50lb > 12v. > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 28 21:54:52 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 01:54:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Attention K-250 owners References: <1008516833.232688.1506650092503.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1008516833.232688.1506650092503@mail.yahoo.com> Proof positive - Kittredge was not kidding I think it was Kittredge's submarine marketing brochure where he wrote "open the snorkel at the surface and the submarine will ride out any storm".? Attached find a screen-capture from a youtube video showing damage from Hurricane Irma in the Florida Keys, in which the famous street-side K250 in Marathon makes an appearance proving it is a hurricane buster. The video is?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrJfBtnbX_Y and the submarine makes it's appearance at the 1:50 mark. Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 29 00:06:05 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 00:06:05 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Attention K-250 owners In-Reply-To: <1008516833.232688.1506650092503@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1008516833.232688.1506650092503.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1008516833.232688.1506650092503@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Happy to hear it! She's a special part of the Keys I wouldn't want to lose. Thanks for sharing Jon. ~ Douglas S. On 9/28/17, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Proof positive - Kittredge was not kidding > I think it was Kittredge's submarine marketing brochure where he wrote "open > the snorkel at the surface and the submarine will ride out any storm". > Attached find a screen-capture from a youtube video showing damage from > Hurricane Irma in the Florida Keys, in which the famous street-side K250 in > Marathon makes an appearance proving it is a hurricane buster. > The video is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrJfBtnbX_Y and the submarine > makes it's appearance at the 1:50 mark. > Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 29 07:43:19 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 11:43:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? In-Reply-To: References: <2063501444.223336.1506645336686@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <560641315.403455.1506685399636@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,The aluminum tube I found is 1\8 thick and 3 inch square, pretty much the same as the steel I used in my arm members. ? I really should learn how to weld the stuff. ?Hank On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 6:51:37 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank?What size and wall thickness is the aluminum tube?Rick? On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 5:40 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What would we do without eBay.com ?? I also get a lot of materials from our local dump.? When metal comes to the dump it is put in a special area by itself, and the public can salvage\recycle anything that is not in the pile.? I get lots of aluminum plate and tubing and shafting, ss bits and pieces, well all sorts of stuff.? I just picked up two four foot long aluminum square tubes that will become manipulator members ;-)Hank On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 3:29:03 PM MDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It was a rusted mess. Went with an eBay score Minn Kota 36v 101lb thrust trolling motor. Ask Alec. I'm the king of eBay bargains.? :-) I'll oil compensate it and stick a lead bar on the support to make up for the weight change. Plan to switch out the side ones this Winter with 50lb 12v.? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 29 09:51:22 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 13:51:22 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? In-Reply-To: <560641315.403455.1506685399636@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2063501444.223336.1506645336686@mail.yahoo.com> <560641315.403455.1506685399636@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hank, Rick On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 4:48 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > The aluminum tube I found is 1\8 thick and 3 inch square, pretty much the > same as the steel I used in my arm members. I really should learn how to > weld the stuff. > Hank > > On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 6:51:37 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank > What size and wall thickness is the aluminum tube? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 5:40 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > What would we do without eBay.com ? I also get a lot of materials from > our local dump. When metal comes to the dump it is put in a special area > by itself, and the public can salvage\recycle anything that is not in the > pile. I get lots of aluminum plate and tubing and shafting, ss bits and > pieces, well all sorts of stuff. I just picked up two four foot long > aluminum square tubes that will become manipulator members ;-) > Hank > > On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 3:29:03 PM MDT, Brian Hughes via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > It was a rusted mess. Went with an eBay score Minn Kota 36v 101lb thrust > trolling motor. Ask Alec. I'm the king of eBay bargains. :-) > > I'll oil compensate it and stick a lead bar on the support to make up for > the weight change. Plan to switch out the side ones this Winter with 50lb > 12v. > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 29 17:54:08 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 21:54:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? In-Reply-To: References: <2063501444.223336.1506645336686@mail.yahoo.com> <560641315.403455.1506685399636@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <203666827.25422.1506722048223@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,You must be getting ready to build your manipulator. ?Start watching Ebay for an aluminum air gripper. ?That is the tricky part to build, so if you buy an air gripper you can modify it for a manipulator. ?You can even find air grippers with a rotary base. ?Just look for rotary air gripper and you can make the hand and wrist for a couple hundred dollars. ?Hank On Friday, September 29, 2017, 7:51:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hank,?Rick? On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 4:48 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,The aluminum tube I found is 1\8 thick and 3 inch square, pretty much the same as the steel I used in my arm members. ? I really should learn how to weld the stuff. ?Hank On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 6:51:37 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank?What size and wall thickness is the aluminum tube?Rick? On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 5:40 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What would we do without eBay.com ?? I also get a lot of materials from our local dump.? When metal comes to the dump it is put in a special area by itself, and the public can salvage\recycle anything that is not in the pile.? I get lots of aluminum plate and tubing and shafting, ss bits and pieces, well all sorts of stuff.? I just picked up two four foot long aluminum square tubes that will become manipulator members ;-)Hank On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 3:29:03 PM MDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It was a rusted mess. Went with an eBay score Minn Kota 36v 101lb thrust trolling motor. Ask Alec. I'm the king of eBay bargains.? :-) I'll oil compensate it and stick a lead bar on the support to make up for the weight change. Plan to switch out the side ones this Winter with 50lb 12v.? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 29 18:22:25 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 22:22:25 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? In-Reply-To: <203666827.25422.1506722048223@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2063501444.223336.1506645336686@mail.yahoo.com> <560641315.403455.1506685399636@mail.yahoo.com> <203666827.25422.1506722048223@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hank On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:59 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > You must be getting ready to build your manipulator. Start watching Ebay > for an aluminum air gripper. That is the tricky part to build, so if you > buy an air gripper you can modify it for a manipulator. You can even find > air grippers with a rotary base. Just look for rotary air gripper and you > can make the hand and wrist for a couple hundred dollars. > Hank > > On Friday, September 29, 2017, 7:51:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Hank, > Rick > > On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 4:48 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > The aluminum tube I found is 1\8 thick and 3 inch square, pretty much the > same as the steel I used in my arm members. I really should learn how to > weld the stuff. > Hank > > On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 6:51:37 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank > What size and wall thickness is the aluminum tube? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 5:40 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > What would we do without eBay.com ? I also get a lot of materials from > our local dump. When metal comes to the dump it is put in a special area > by itself, and the public can salvage\recycle anything that is not in the > pile. I get lots of aluminum plate and tubing and shafting, ss bits and > pieces, well all sorts of stuff. I just picked up two four foot long > aluminum square tubes that will become manipulator members ;-) > Hank > > On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 3:29:03 PM MDT, Brian Hughes via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > It was a rusted mess. Went with an eBay score Minn Kota 36v 101lb thrust > trolling motor. Ask Alec. I'm the king of eBay bargains. :-) > > I'll oil compensate it and stick a lead bar on the support to make up for > the weight change. Plan to switch out the side ones this Winter with 50lb > 12v. > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 29 19:07:41 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 23:07:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? In-Reply-To: <560641315.403455.1506685399636@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2063501444.223336.1506645336686@mail.yahoo.com> <560641315.403455.1506685399636@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1638024235.846287.1506726461773@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, I have no doubt that will happen. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, September 29, 2017 6:49 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36v thruster - rebuild or replace with 12v? Rick,The aluminum tube I found is 1\8 thick and 3 inch square, pretty much the same as the steel I used in my arm members. ? I really should learn how to weld the stuff. ?Hank On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 6:51:37 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank?What size and wall thickness is the aluminum tube?Rick? On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 5:40 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What would we do without eBay.com ?? I also get a lot of materials from our local dump.? When metal comes to the dump it is put in a special area by itself, and the public can salvage\recycle anything that is not in the pile.? I get lots of aluminum plate and tubing and shafting, ss bits and pieces, well all sorts of stuff.? I just picked up two four foot long aluminum square tubes that will become manipulator members ;-)Hank On Thursday, September 28, 2017, 3:29:03 PM MDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It was a rusted mess. Went with an eBay score Minn Kota 36v 101lb thrust trolling motor. Ask Alec. I'm the king of eBay bargains.? :-) I'll oil compensate it and stick a lead bar on the support to make up for the weight change. Plan to switch out the side ones this Winter with 50lb 12v.? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 29 20:08:14 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2017 00:08:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] magnetic linear actuator References: <170107393.101400.1506730094719.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <170107393.101400.1506730094719@mail.yahoo.com> I have been brain storming looking for a less expensive and less complicated means of building manipulators. ?The obvious choice would be electric liner actuators, oil filled etc. ?Then I was thinking about a magnetic actuator like a mag lev rail. ?Is there such a thing? ?You know, add more voltage and the actuator moves out further. ?Any ideas? ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 29 22:07:06 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2017 15:07:06 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] magnetic linear actuator In-Reply-To: <170107393.101400.1506730094719@mail.yahoo.com> References: <170107393.101400.1506730094719.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <170107393.101400.1506730094719@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I spent a lot of time investigating oil compensation of linear actuators along with Frank. He was looking at the Lenco trim tab actuators. Have several. The motors in them are small & brushed & run rough in oil. When the rod extends that leaves a void inside the actuator that needs to be filled. So you end up with an external oil reservoir to fill the actuator with ambient pressure oil as it extends. ( so why not just push it out with the oil) There are micro switches that I drilled with tiny holes, to let ambient pressure in so they didn't trigger under pressure. Also there are electronics in some actuators that may be effected by pressure. And of course there is the wiring going in to the actuator that needs sealing & the seals on the rod that may need replacing. Much simpler to use hydraulics. I did see an electric manipulator operating at the Underwater Intervention Convention. Can't recall it's name. From time to time I have a google on robot sites to see what is new. Or Alibaba to see if the Chinese have come up with anything cheap. Nearly bought a kids hydraulic arm toy that you assemble, with view to scaling up out of aluminium. Keep thinking, but the robotics World is big & if there is a new & easier way of doing it they'll find it. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 30/09/2017, at 1:08 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I have been brain storming looking for a less expensive and less complicated means of building manipulators. The obvious choice would be electric liner actuators, oil filled etc. Then I was thinking about a magnetic actuator like a mag lev rail. Is there such a thing? You know, add more voltage and the actuator moves out further. Any ideas? > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 30 05:32:36 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2017 09:32:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] magnetic linear actuator In-Reply-To: References: <170107393.101400.1506730094719.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <170107393.101400.1506730094719@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1397979502.193630.1506763956650@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I have not taken one apart yet but it sounds like it is a tricky one. ?I was hoping there was some sort of magnetic rail actuator. ?I have been Googling around but have not found anything yet. ?I have had superb results with electro magnets under water (fresh) ?and figure that could be the answer. ?I ?will keep looking.Hank On Friday, September 29, 2017, 8:07:33 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I spent a lot of time investigating oil compensation of linear actuators alongwith Frank.. He was looking at the Lenco trim tab actuators.Have several. The motors in them are small & brushed & run rough inoil. When the rod extends that leaves a void inside the actuator that needsto be filled. So you end up with an external oil reservoir to fill the actuatorwith ambient pressure oil as it extends. ( so why not just push it out with the oil)There are micro switches that I drilled with tiny holes, to let ambient pressurein so they didn't trigger under pressure. Also there are electronics in someactuators that may be effected by pressure. And of course there is the wiringgoing in to the actuator that needs sealing & the seals on the rod that may need replacing.Much simpler to use hydraulics. I did see an electric manipulator operatingat the Underwater Intervention Convention. Can't recall it's name.? ?From time to time I have a google on robot sites to see what is new. OrAlibaba to see if the Chinese have come up with anything cheap.Nearly bought a kids hydraulic arm toy that you assemble, with view to?scaling up out of aluminium.Keep thinking, but the robotics World is big & if there is a new & easier wayof doing it they'll find it.Alan Sent from my iPad On 30/09/2017, at 1:08 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have been brain storming looking for a less expensive and less complicated means of building manipulators. ?The obvious choice would be electric liner actuators, oil filled etc. ?Then I was thinking about a magnetic actuator like a mag lev rail. ?Is there such a thing? ?You know, add more voltage and the actuator moves out further. ?Any ideas? ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 30 11:28:03 2017 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2017 04:28:03 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] magnetic linear actuator In-Reply-To: <1397979502.193630.1506763956650@mail.yahoo.com> References: <170107393.101400.1506730094719.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <170107393.101400.1506730094719@mail.yahoo.com> <1397979502.193630.1506763956650@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, you mean like a solenoid with a long stroke? I have been designing a solenoid operated ballast valve but haven't got round to working out how many turns of wire, how much force I need & how many amps it will draw. A lot of solenoids have a short duty cycle, as they heat up pretty quick. I would imagine this could be a problem if you wanted to hold something in position for a long time. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 30/09/2017, at 10:32 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I have not taken one apart yet but it sounds like it is a tricky one. I was hoping there was some sort of magnetic rail actuator. I have been Googling around but have not found anything yet. I have had superb results with electro magnets under water (fresh) and figure that could be the answer. I will keep looking. > Hank > > On Friday, September 29, 2017, 8:07:33 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > I spent a lot of time investigating oil compensation of linear actuators along > with Frank.. He was looking at the Lenco trim tab actuators. > Have several. The motors in them are small & brushed & run rough in > oil. When the rod extends that leaves a void inside the actuator that needs > to be filled. So you end up with an external oil reservoir to fill the actuator > with ambient pressure oil as it extends. ( so why not just push it out with the oil) > There are micro switches that I drilled with tiny holes, to let ambient pressure > in so they didn't trigger under pressure. Also there are electronics in some > actuators that may be effected by pressure. And of course there is the wiring > going in to the actuator that needs sealing & the seals on the rod that may need replacing. > Much simpler to use hydraulics. I did see an electric manipulator operating > at the Underwater Intervention Convention. Can't recall it's name. > From time to time I have a google on robot sites to see what is new. Or > Alibaba to see if the Chinese have come up with anything cheap. > Nearly bought a kids hydraulic arm toy that you assemble, with view to > scaling up out of aluminium. > Keep thinking, but the robotics World is big & if there is a new & easier way > of doing it they'll find it. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 30/09/2017, at 1:08 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I have been brain storming looking for a less expensive and less complicated means of building manipulators. The obvious choice would be electric liner actuators, oil filled etc. Then I was thinking about a magnetic actuator like a mag lev rail. Is there such a thing? You know, add more voltage and the actuator moves out further. Any ideas? >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: