From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 1 02:12:10 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 20:12:10 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick In-Reply-To: <000c01d3b102$0212e500$0638af00$@telus.net> References: <562642995.26405.1519717801450@wamui-jelly.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1D70762B-A651-4086-8515-8C8E1281921D@yahoo.com> <7889A50D-7A12-41C9-9AD3-8CD3E23A6C4A@yahoo.com> <000c01d3b102$0212e500$0638af00$@telus.net> Message-ID: <458DFEA6-3B34-4B66-A2DC-B3E8E7B18C5A@yahoo.com> Tim, I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enough for a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it with very limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limits for novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the direction you push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centre you push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down" Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls? This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc. > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick > > Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight > simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their > Virginia class submarines. > http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines > Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative! > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way. In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster. > > Best, > Alec > > On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Cliff, > thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas. > I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this. > Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy. > If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the > top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's > controller with the chinaman's hat being the vertical control ) > then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by > having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree. > At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis > input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they > have loads of programable control functions relating to the output > from the joysticks. > As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my > original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components > together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external > structure. > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick. Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a ?typical? submersible or ?flyer?. Typical would be like a ?K? boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control. A ?flyer? is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. My boat is a ?flyer? and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control. For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal. I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick. Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products . They can configure just about anything you want. Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey. I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out. The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location. I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey. See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd > > So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e., ?typical? or ?flyer?? Got any drawings you want to share? > > Cliff > > On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Thanks Ian, > I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting > of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive, > you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further > from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction. > I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie. > you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down! > I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers > come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the > top of the main joy stick shaft. > I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end > of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes > Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo > the controllers are just out of view) > On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling > thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control > at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control > units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds. > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I was thinking of going with something like this: > https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf > 3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control. Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options. > This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction, > can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface. > > There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches, > which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction. > > Cheers, > Ian. > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick > > Well there is this product.... > Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System > > Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button! > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Sean & David, > hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth > limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices > set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming. > Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David > has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big. > David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300- > won't you! That's not bad. > Found a small video of it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw > I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf > semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2 > axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work! > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows: > > Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. > > Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane. > > Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual. > > Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all. > > Sean > > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Sean, > sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up. > I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as > I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient > works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could > however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when > I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to > turn the sub on it's axis. > On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand > free for a camera, HMI or manipulator. > If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger > operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft. > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm. > > Sean > > > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical > thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, > & not on & off. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling > > 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. > > I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters > > throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional > > speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I > > am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen > > buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached > > picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. > > I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. > > It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights > > or display control etc. > > If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested > > thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 1 05:47:03 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 10:47:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick In-Reply-To: <458DFEA6-3B34-4B66-A2DC-B3E8E7B18C5A@yahoo.com> References: <562642995.26405.1519717801450@wamui-jelly.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1D70762B-A651-4086-8515-8C8E1281921D@yahoo.com> <7889A50D-7A12-41C9-9AD3-8CD3E23A6C4A@yahoo.com> <000c01d3b102$0212e500$0638af00$@telus.net> <458DFEA6-3B34-4B66-A2DC-B3E8E7B18C5A@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <23606142.8351221.1519901223948@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I have been looking around a bit for a joy stick myself. ?At the moment I have a simple forward reverse switch that reverses polarity. ?Along with the switch for direction I have a potentiometer for speed. ?I also have a left\right switch also reverse polarity. ?I need a joy stick that can have the direction control with speed control all in one. ?I ordered something close from China hoping I could modify it, but I think it is lost ;-( ? ?Maybe in your searching you have come across something suitable?Hank On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:12:39 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Tim,I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enoughfor a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it withvery limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limitsfor novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the directionyou push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centreyou push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick?that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down"Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub?to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way.Alan Sent from my iPad On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv6335675501 #yiv6335675501 -- _filtered #yiv6335675501 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6335675501 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv6335675501 #yiv6335675501 p.yiv6335675501MsoNormal, #yiv6335675501 li.yiv6335675501MsoNormal, #yiv6335675501 div.yiv6335675501MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6335675501 h3 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:13.5pt;font-weight:bold;}#yiv6335675501 a:link, #yiv6335675501 span.yiv6335675501MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6335675501 a:visited, #yiv6335675501 span.yiv6335675501MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6335675501 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6335675501 span.yiv6335675501Heading3Char {color:#1F4D78;}#yiv6335675501 span.yiv6335675501EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv6335675501 .yiv6335675501MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv6335675501 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv6335675501 div.yiv6335675501WordSection1 {}#yiv6335675501 Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls?? This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc. Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick ? Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their Virginia class submarines. http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative! Alan Sent from my iPad On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, ? I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way.? In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster.? ? Best, Alec ? On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas. I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this. Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy.? If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's controller with the ?chinaman's hat being the vertical control ) then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by? having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree. At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they have loads of programable control functions relating to the output from the joysticks. As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external? structure. Cheers Alan ? Sent from my iPad On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick.? Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a ?typical? submersible or ??flyer?.? Typical would be like a ?K? boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control.? A ?flyer? is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. ?My boat is a ?flyer? and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control.? For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal.? ?I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick.? Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada ?http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products?.? They can configure just about anything you want.? Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey.? I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out.? The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location.? I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey. ?See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd ? So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e.,? ?typical? or ?flyer??? Got any drawings you want to share? ? Cliff ? On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Ian, I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive, you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction. ? ?I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie. you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down! I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the top of the main joy stick shaft.? I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo the controllers are just out of view) On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds. Alan ? ? ? Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? I was thinking of going with something like this: https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf 3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control.? Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options. This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction, can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface. ? There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches, which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction. ? Cheers, ?Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick Well there is this product.... Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button! Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Sean & David, hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming. Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big. David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300- won't you! That's not bad. Found a small video of it.?https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2 axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows: Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane. Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual. Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Thanks Sean, sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up. I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when? I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to? turn the sub on it's axis.? On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand? free for a camera, HMI or manipulator.? If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft. Cheers Alan ? Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, & not on & off. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling > 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. > I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters > throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional > speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I > am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen > buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached > picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. > I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. > It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights > or display control etc. > If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested > thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 1 12:52:27 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 17:52:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1799264110.8585439.1519926747736@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff, this is the type of system I have except this one actually does record.?Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2018, 10:49:41 AM MSTSubject: SAVE $5 FOR EVERY 2 ITEMS YOU BUY https://www.ebay.com/sme/qualitycaraudio/Save-5-for-every-2-items-you-buy/so.html?_seedid=371659057365&_soffType=OrderSubTotalOffer&_soffid=5000625802&_trksid=p2047675.m2197 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 1 21:04:19 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 15:04:19 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick In-Reply-To: <23606142.8351221.1519901223948@mail.yahoo.com> References: <562642995.26405.1519717801450@wamui-jelly.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1D70762B-A651-4086-8515-8C8E1281921D@yahoo.com> <7889A50D-7A12-41C9-9AD3-8CD3E23A6C4A@yahoo.com> <000c01d3b102$0212e500$0638af00$@telus.net> <458DFEA6-3B34-4B66-A2DC-B3E8E7B18C5A@yahoo.com> <23606142.8351221.1519901223948@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, life is complicated in the 21st century. The joysticks themselves are pretty simple. A 1 axis joystick is basically a leaver that turns a rotary potentiometer which is typically 10k ohm resistance. When you want forward & reverse off this you have a dead centre which may be 4.5-5.5k Ohm. So when the stick is central it will be in that range & the electronics says "do nothing" then from 5.5- 10k it is incrementally increasing speed in the forward direction & from 5.4 to 0 it reverses & is increasing the speed in the reverse direction. Some joysticks will just have the 0-10k Ohm output & others have complicated electronics in the base which communicate with various protocols. On my ambient I had two 2 axis joysticks on a Playstation 2 controller & I bought a piece of electronics called a PS2 input output converter that outputted the 4 joystick axis to PWM signals that were run through solid state relays to switch power on to the motors. Also had flyback diodes to protect the relays. On my Kelly controllers you can specify a controller that takes joystick input & you would just buy a joystick with 10k Ohm pots & you are sweet! On my current build I am using a new small brushless motor controller called a Vesc. Well I am trialling it at the moment. And will be inputting the joystick signal to my plc then outputting to the Vesc. Am also arranging a meeting with an automation expert who is good with electronics & will be discussing how we are achieving a lot of these things. If you are going this route, which I think is great, I would look at something like a Kelly controller that takes a joystick input. Then you could just get a basic joystick with 10k Ohm output & wire it in. I think when I was asking for this they called it a boat controller. You may find a piece of electronics out there that converts the pot output & regulates the voltage to your motors through relays based on this. I know there are lots of arduino based devices. The robot shop might be a good source. Run any controller past the group first as there are a lot smarter people on this mail list than me! I will keep you up to date with what I am doing, but the flight controller that David posted is pretty cool & you would have a bit more room on board for one than I would. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 1/03/2018, at 11:47 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I have been looking around a bit for a joy stick myself. At the moment I have a simple forward reverse switch that reverses polarity. Along with the switch for direction I have a potentiometer for speed. I also have a left\right switch also reverse polarity. I need a joy stick that can have the direction control with speed control all in one. I ordered something close from China hoping I could modify it, but I think it is lost ;-( Maybe in your searching you have come across something suitable? > Hank > > On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:12:39 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Tim, > I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enough > for a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it with > very limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limits > for novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the direction > you push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centre > you push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick > that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down" > Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub > to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls? This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc. > > Tim > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick > > > > Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight > > simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their > > Virginia class submarines. > > http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines > > Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative! > > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > > > I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way. In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > > thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas. > > I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this. > > Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy. > > If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the > > top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's > > controller with the chinaman's hat being the vertical control ) > > then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by > > having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree. > > At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis > > input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they > > have loads of programable control functions relating to the output > > from the joysticks. > > As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my > > original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components > > together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external > > structure. > > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick. Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a ?typical? submersible or ?flyer?. Typical would be like a ?K? boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control. A ?flyer? is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. My boat is a ?flyer? and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control. For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal. I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick. Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products . They can configure just about anything you want. Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey. I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out. The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location. I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey. See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd > > So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e., ?typical? or ?flyer?? Got any drawings you want to share? > > > > Cliff > > > > On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Ian, > > I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting > > of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive, > > you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further > > from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction. > > I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie. > > you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down! > > I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers > > come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the > > top of the main joy stick shaft. > > I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end > > of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes > > Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo > > the controllers are just out of view) > > On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling > > thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control > > at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control > > units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds. > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > I was thinking of going with something like this: > > https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf > > 3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control. Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options. > > This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction, > > can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface. > > > > There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches, > > which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction. > > > > Cheers, > > Ian. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick > > Well there is this product.... > > Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System > > Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button! > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Sean & David, > > hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth > > limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices > > set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming. > > Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David > > has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big. > > David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300- > > won't you! That's not bad. > > Found a small video of it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw > > I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf > > semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2 > > axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work! > > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows: > > Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. > > Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane. > > Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual. > > Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all. > > Sean > > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Thanks Sean, > > sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up. > > I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as > > I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient > > works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could > > however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when > > I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to > > turn the sub on it's axis. > > On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand > > free for a camera, HMI or manipulator. > > If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger > > operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft. > > Cheers Alan > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm. > > Sean > > > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical > thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, > & not on & off. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling > > 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. > > I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters > > throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional > > speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I > > am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen > > buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached > > picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. > > I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. > > It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights > > or display control etc. > > If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested > > thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 1 22:19:52 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 03:19:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick In-Reply-To: References: <562642995.26405.1519717801450@wamui-jelly.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1D70762B-A651-4086-8515-8C8E1281921D@yahoo.com> <7889A50D-7A12-41C9-9AD3-8CD3E23A6C4A@yahoo.com> <000c01d3b102$0212e500$0638af00$@telus.net> <458DFEA6-3B34-4B66-A2DC-B3E8E7B18C5A@yahoo.com> <23606142.8351221.1519901223948@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1142229530.8984134.1519960793017@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, I have a controller in the sub working already, the potentiometer is in my hand held control panel. ?The whole setup works perfect actually. ?I would like to make it a bit more user friendly. ?I can ?live with it the way it is also if it is a big deal to find the right joystick.Hank On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 7:04:56 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,life is complicated in the 21st century.?The joysticks themselves are pretty simple. A 1 axis joystick is basically aleaver that turns a rotary potentiometer which is typically 10k ohm resistance.?When you want forward & reverse off this you have a dead centre which maybe 4.5-5.5k Ohm. So when the stick is central it will be in that range & theelectronics says "do nothing" then from 5.5- 10k it is incrementally increasingspeed in the forward direction & from 5.4 to 0 it reverses & is increasing the speed?in the reverse direction.Some joysticks will just have the 0-10k Ohm output & others have complicated?electronics in the base which communicate with various protocols.On my ambient I had two 2 axis joysticks on a Playstation 2 controller & I boughta piece of electronics called a PS2 input output converter that outputted the 4 joystickaxis to PWM signals that were run through solid state relays to switch power onto the motors. Also had flyback diodes to protect the relays.On my Kelly controllers you can specify a controller that takes joystick input &you would just buy a joystick with 10k Ohm pots & you are sweet!On my current build I am using a new small brushless motor controller ?calleda Vesc. Well I am trialling it at the moment. And will be inputting the joysticksignal to my plc then outputting to the Vesc. Am also arranging a meeting withan automation expert who is good with electronics & will be discussing howwe are achieving a lot of these things.If you are going this route, which I think is great, I would look at somethinglike a Kelly controller that takes a joystick input. Then you could just get a?basic joystick with 10k Ohm output & wire it in. I think when I was asking forthis they called it a boat controller.You may find a piece of electronics out there that converts the pot output ®ulates the voltage to your motors through relays based on this. I knowthere are lots of arduino based devices. The robot shop might be a good source.Run any controller past the group first as there are a lot smarter people onthis mail list than me! I will keep you up to date with what I am doing, but theflight controller that David posted is pretty cool & you would have a?bit more room on board for one than I would.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 1/03/2018, at 11:47 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I have been looking around a bit for a joy stick myself. ?At the moment I have a simple forward reverse switch that reverses polarity. ?Along with the switch for direction I have a potentiometer for speed. ?I also have a left\right switch also reverse polarity. ?I need a joy stick that can have the direction control with speed control all in one. ?I ordered something close from China hoping I could modify it, but I think it is lost ;-( ? ?Maybe in your searching you have come across something suitable?Hank On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:12:39 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Tim,I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enoughfor a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it withvery limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limitsfor novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the directionyou push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centreyou push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick?that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down"Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub?to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way.Alan Sent from my iPad On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv4204713882 -- filtered {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}#yiv4204713882 filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv4204713882 p.yiv4204713882MsoNormal, #yiv4204713882 li.yiv4204713882MsoNormal, #yiv4204713882 div.yiv4204713882MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv4204713882 h3 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:13.5pt;font-weight:bold;}#yiv4204713882 a:link, #yiv4204713882 span.yiv4204713882MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4204713882 a:visited, #yiv4204713882 span.yiv4204713882MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4204713882 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv4204713882 span.yiv4204713882Heading3Char {color:#1F4D78;}#yiv4204713882 span.yiv4204713882EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv4204713882 .yiv4204713882MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv4204713882 filtered {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv4204713882 div.yiv4204713882WordSection1 {}#yiv4204713882 Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls?? This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc. Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick ? Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their Virginia class submarines. http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative! Alan Sent from my iPad On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, ? I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way.? In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster.? ? Best, Alec ? On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas. I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this. Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy.? If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's controller with the ?chinaman's hat being the vertical control ) then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by? having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree. At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they have loads of programable control functions relating to the output from the joysticks. As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external? structure. Cheers Alan ? Sent from my iPad On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick.? Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a ?typical? submersible or ??flyer?.? Typical would be like a ?K? boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control.? A ?flyer? is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. ?My boat is a ?flyer? and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control.? For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal.? ?I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick.? Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada ?http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products?.? They can configure just about anything you want.? Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey.? I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out.? The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location.? I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey. ?See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd ? So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e.,? ?typical? or ?flyer??? Got any drawings you want to share? ? Cliff ? On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Ian, I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive, you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction. ? ?I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie. you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down! I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the top of the main joy stick shaft.? I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo the controllers are just out of view) On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds. Alan ? ? ? Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? I was thinking of going with something like this: https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf 3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control.? Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options. This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction, can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface. ? There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches, which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction. ? Cheers, ?Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick Well there is this product.... Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button! Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Sean & David, hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming. Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big. David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300- won't you! That's not bad. Found a small video of it.?https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2 axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows: Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane. Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual. Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Thanks Sean, sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up. I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when? I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to? turn the sub on it's axis.? On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand? free for a camera, HMI or manipulator.? If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft. Cheers Alan ? Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, & not on & off. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling > 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. > I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters > throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional > speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I > am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen > buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached > picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. > I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. > It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights > or display control etc. > If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested > thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 2 22:20:05 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 16:20:05 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick In-Reply-To: <1142229530.8984134.1519960793017@mail.yahoo.com> References: <562642995.26405.1519717801450@wamui-jelly.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1D70762B-A651-4086-8515-8C8E1281921D@yahoo.com> <7889A50D-7A12-41C9-9AD3-8CD3E23A6C4A@yahoo.com> <000c01d3b102$0212e500$0638af00$@telus.net> <458DFEA6-3B34-4B66-A2DC-B3E8E7B18C5A@yahoo.com> <23606142.8351221.1519901223948@mail.yahoo.com> <1142229530.8984134.1519960793017@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <153D142A-FB6B-474A-BA95-CE7297C9DCC0@yahoo.com> Hank, I was looking for a good article on motor control I thought I had bookmarked but can't find it anywhere. Is the potentiometer giving you forward & reverse? If so check what resistance it is with a multimeter, then you could replace that with a joystick that has a potentiometer of the same value. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 2/03/2018, at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I have a controller in the sub working already, the potentiometer is in my hand held control panel. The whole setup works perfect actually. I would like to make it a bit more user friendly. I can live with it the way it is also if it is a big deal to find the right joystick. > Hank > > On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 7:04:56 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > life is complicated in the 21st century. > The joysticks themselves are pretty simple. A 1 axis joystick is basically a > leaver that turns a rotary potentiometer which is typically 10k ohm resistance. > When you want forward & reverse off this you have a dead centre which may > be 4.5-5.5k Ohm. So when the stick is central it will be in that range & the > electronics says "do nothing" then from 5.5- 10k it is incrementally increasing > speed in the forward direction & from 5.4 to 0 it reverses & is increasing the speed > in the reverse direction. > Some joysticks will just have the 0-10k Ohm output & others have complicated > electronics in the base which communicate with various protocols. > On my ambient I had two 2 axis joysticks on a Playstation 2 controller & I bought > a piece of electronics called a PS2 input output converter that outputted the 4 joystick > axis to PWM signals that were run through solid state relays to switch power on > to the motors. Also had flyback diodes to protect the relays. > On my Kelly controllers you can specify a controller that takes joystick input & > you would just buy a joystick with 10k Ohm pots & you are sweet! > On my current build I am using a new small brushless motor controller called > a Vesc. Well I am trialling it at the moment. And will be inputting the joystick > signal to my plc then outputting to the Vesc. Am also arranging a meeting with > an automation expert who is good with electronics & will be discussing how > we are achieving a lot of these things. > If you are going this route, which I think is great, I would look at something > like a Kelly controller that takes a joystick input. Then you could just get a > basic joystick with 10k Ohm output & wire it in. I think when I was asking for > this they called it a boat controller. > You may find a piece of electronics out there that converts the pot output & > regulates the voltage to your motors through relays based on this. I know > there are lots of arduino based devices. The robot shop might be a good source. > Run any controller past the group first as there are a lot smarter people on > this mail list than me! I will keep you up to date with what I am doing, but the > flight controller that David posted is pretty cool & you would have a > bit more room on board for one than I would. > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 1/03/2018, at 11:47 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> I have been looking around a bit for a joy stick myself. At the moment I have a simple forward reverse switch that reverses polarity. Along with the switch for direction I have a potentiometer for speed. I also have a left\right switch also reverse polarity. I need a joy stick that can have the direction control with speed control all in one. I ordered something close from China hoping I could modify it, but I think it is lost ;-( Maybe in your searching you have come across something suitable? >> Hank >> >> On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:12:39 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Tim, >> I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enough >> for a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it with >> very limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limits >> for novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the direction >> you push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centre >> you push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick >> that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down" >> Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub >> to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >> >> Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls? This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc. >> Tim >> >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick >> >> Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight >> simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their >> Virginia class submarines. >> http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines >> Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative! >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way. In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster. >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Cliff, >> thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas. >> I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this. >> Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy. >> If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the >> top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's >> controller with the chinaman's hat being the vertical control ) >> then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by >> having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree. >> At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis >> input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they >> have loads of programable control functions relating to the output >> from the joysticks. >> As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my >> original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components >> together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external >> structure. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick. Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a ?typical? submersible or ?flyer?. Typical would be like a ?K? boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control. A ?flyer? is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. My boat is a ?flyer? and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control. For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal. I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick. Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products . They can configure just about anything you want. Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey. I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out. The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location. I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey. See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd >> >> So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e., ?typical? or ?flyer?? Got any drawings you want to share? >> >> Cliff >> >> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Thanks Ian, >> I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting >> of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive, >> you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further >> from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction. >> I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie. >> you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down! >> I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers >> come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the >> top of the main joy stick shaft. >> I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end >> of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes >> Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo >> the controllers are just out of view) >> On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling >> thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control >> at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control >> units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> I was thinking of going with something like this: >> https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf >> 3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control. Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options. >> This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction, >> can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface. >> >> There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches, >> which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction. >> >> Cheers, >> Ian. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick >> >> Well there is this product.... >> Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System >> >> Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button! >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Thanks Sean & David, >> hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth >> limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices >> set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming. >> Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David >> has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big. >> David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300- >> won't you! That's not bad. >> Found a small video of it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw >> I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf >> semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2 >> axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work! >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows: >> >> Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. >> >> Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane. >> >> Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual. >> >> Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all. >> >> Sean >> >> >> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >> >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks Sean, >> sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up. >> I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as >> I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient >> works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could >> however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when >> I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to >> turn the sub on it's axis. >> On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand >> free for a camera, HMI or manipulator. >> If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger >> operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >> >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical >> thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, >> & not on & off. >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > >> > Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling >> > 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. >> > I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters >> > throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional >> > speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I >> > am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen >> > buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached >> > picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. >> > I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. >> > It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights >> > or display control etc. >> > If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested >> > thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! >> > Alan >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Sent from my iPad >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 2 23:14:14 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 17:14:14 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick In-Reply-To: <153D142A-FB6B-474A-BA95-CE7297C9DCC0@yahoo.com> References: <562642995.26405.1519717801450@wamui-jelly.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1D70762B-A651-4086-8515-8C8E1281921D@yahoo.com> <7889A50D-7A12-41C9-9AD3-8CD3E23A6C4A@yahoo.com> <000c01d3b102$0212e500$0638af00$@telus.net> <458DFEA6-3B34-4B66-A2DC-B3E8E7B18C5A@yahoo.com> <23606142.8351221.1519901223948@mail.yahoo.com> <1142229530.8984134.1519960793017@mail.yahoo.com> <153D142A-FB6B-474A-BA95-CE7297C9DCC0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, just had a look at your post further back & see the potentiometer doesn't give forward & reverse, you use a switch for that. What is the motor configuration on your sub. Is it a horizontal thruster on either side with fixed vertical thrusters. I am loosing track of which sub is which! Also do you have a controller for each thruster? Alan Sent from my iPad > On 3/03/2018, at 4:20 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, > I was looking for a good article on motor control I thought I had bookmarked > but can't find it anywhere. > Is the potentiometer giving you forward & reverse? If so check what resistance > it is with a multimeter, then you could replace that with a joystick that has a > potentiometer of the same value. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 2/03/2018, at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, I have a controller in the sub working already, the potentiometer is in my hand held control panel. The whole setup works perfect actually. I would like to make it a bit more user friendly. I can live with it the way it is also if it is a big deal to find the right joystick. >> Hank >> >> On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 7:04:56 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> life is complicated in the 21st century. >> The joysticks themselves are pretty simple. A 1 axis joystick is basically a >> leaver that turns a rotary potentiometer which is typically 10k ohm resistance. >> When you want forward & reverse off this you have a dead centre which may >> be 4.5-5.5k Ohm. So when the stick is central it will be in that range & the >> electronics says "do nothing" then from 5.5- 10k it is incrementally increasing >> speed in the forward direction & from 5.4 to 0 it reverses & is increasing the speed >> in the reverse direction. >> Some joysticks will just have the 0-10k Ohm output & others have complicated >> electronics in the base which communicate with various protocols. >> On my ambient I had two 2 axis joysticks on a Playstation 2 controller & I bought >> a piece of electronics called a PS2 input output converter that outputted the 4 joystick >> axis to PWM signals that were run through solid state relays to switch power on >> to the motors. Also had flyback diodes to protect the relays. >> On my Kelly controllers you can specify a controller that takes joystick input & >> you would just buy a joystick with 10k Ohm pots & you are sweet! >> On my current build I am using a new small brushless motor controller called >> a Vesc. Well I am trialling it at the moment. And will be inputting the joystick >> signal to my plc then outputting to the Vesc. Am also arranging a meeting with >> an automation expert who is good with electronics & will be discussing how >> we are achieving a lot of these things. >> If you are going this route, which I think is great, I would look at something >> like a Kelly controller that takes a joystick input. Then you could just get a >> basic joystick with 10k Ohm output & wire it in. I think when I was asking for >> this they called it a boat controller. >> You may find a piece of electronics out there that converts the pot output & >> regulates the voltage to your motors through relays based on this. I know >> there are lots of arduino based devices. The robot shop might be a good source. >> Run any controller past the group first as there are a lot smarter people on >> this mail list than me! I will keep you up to date with what I am doing, but the >> flight controller that David posted is pretty cool & you would have a >> bit more room on board for one than I would. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 1/03/2018, at 11:47 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> I have been looking around a bit for a joy stick myself. At the moment I have a simple forward reverse switch that reverses polarity. Along with the switch for direction I have a potentiometer for speed. I also have a left\right switch also reverse polarity. I need a joy stick that can have the direction control with speed control all in one. I ordered something close from China hoping I could modify it, but I think it is lost ;-( Maybe in your searching you have come across something suitable? >>> Hank >>> >>> On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:12:39 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Tim, >>> I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enough >>> for a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it with >>> very limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limits >>> for novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the direction >>> you push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centre >>> you push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick >>> that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down" >>> Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub >>> to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>> >>> Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls? This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc. >>> Tim >>> >>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick >>> >>> Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight >>> simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their >>> Virginia class submarines. >>> http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines >>> Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative! >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> >>> I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way. In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster. >>> >>> Best, >>> Alec >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Cliff, >>> thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas. >>> I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this. >>> Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy. >>> If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the >>> top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's >>> controller with the chinaman's hat being the vertical control ) >>> then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by >>> having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree. >>> At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis >>> input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they >>> have loads of programable control functions relating to the output >>> from the joysticks. >>> As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my >>> original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components >>> together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external >>> structure. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick. Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a ?typical? submersible or ?flyer?. Typical would be like a ?K? boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control. A ?flyer? is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. My boat is a ?flyer? and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control. For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal. I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick. Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products . They can configure just about anything you want. Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey. I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out. The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location. I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey. See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd >>> >>> So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e., ?typical? or ?flyer?? Got any drawings you want to share? >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Thanks Ian, >>> I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting >>> of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive, >>> you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further >>> from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction. >>> I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie. >>> you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down! >>> I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers >>> come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the >>> top of the main joy stick shaft. >>> I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end >>> of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes >>> Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo >>> the controllers are just out of view) >>> On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling >>> thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control >>> at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control >>> units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> I was thinking of going with something like this: >>> https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf >>> 3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control. Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options. >>> This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction, >>> can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface. >>> >>> There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches, >>> which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Ian. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick >>> >>> Well there is this product.... >>> Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System >>> >>> Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button! >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Sean & David, >>> hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth >>> limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices >>> set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming. >>> Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David >>> has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big. >>> David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300- >>> won't you! That's not bad. >>> Found a small video of it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw >>> I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf >>> semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2 >>> axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work! >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows: >>> >>> Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. >>> >>> Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane. >>> >>> Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual. >>> >>> Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Sean, >>> sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up. >>> I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as >>> I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient >>> works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could >>> however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when >>> I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to >>> turn the sub on it's axis. >>> On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand >>> free for a camera, HMI or manipulator. >>> If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger >>> operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical >>> thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, >>> & not on & off. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> > On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> > >>> > Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling >>> > 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. >>> > I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters >>> > throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional >>> > speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I >>> > am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen >>> > buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached >>> > picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. >>> > I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. >>> > It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights >>> > or display control etc. >>> > If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested >>> > thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! >>> > Alan >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPad >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 3 06:34:33 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 11:34:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick In-Reply-To: References: <562642995.26405.1519717801450@wamui-jelly.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1D70762B-A651-4086-8515-8C8E1281921D@yahoo.com> <7889A50D-7A12-41C9-9AD3-8CD3E23A6C4A@yahoo.com> <000c01d3b102$0212e500$0638af00$@telus.net> <458DFEA6-3B34-4B66-A2DC-B3E8E7B18C5A@yahoo.com> <23606142.8351221.1519901223948@mail.yahoo.com> <1142229530.8984134.1519960793017@mail.yahoo.com> <153D142A-FB6B-474A-BA95-CE7297C9DCC0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1834751896.9835559.1520076873379@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, ?Gamma has the original drive motor back in it, so it is a single motor and prop with the original rudder. ?There is two fixed vertical thrusters, one on each side. ?I have also added a positioning thruster up front opposite the arm.?Hank ? On Friday, March 2, 2018, 9:14:40 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,just had a look at your post further back & see the potentiometer?doesn't give forward & reverse, you use a switch for that.What is the motor configuration on your sub. Is it a horizontal thrusteron either side with fixed vertical thrusters. I am loosing track of whichsub is which!Also do you have a controller for each thruster?Alan Sent from my iPad On 3/03/2018, at 4:20 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I was looking for a good article on motor control I thought I had bookmarkedbut can't find it anywhere.?Is the potentiometer giving you forward & reverse? If so check what resistanceit is with a multimeter, then you could replace that with a joystick that has a?potentiometer of the same value.Alan? Sent from my iPad On 2/03/2018, at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I have a controller in the sub working already, the potentiometer is in my hand held control panel. ?The whole setup works perfect actually. ?I would like to make it a bit more user friendly. ?I can ?live with it the way it is also if it is a big deal to find the right joystick.Hank On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 7:04:56 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,life is complicated in the 21st century.?The joysticks themselves are pretty simple. A 1 axis joystick is basically aleaver that turns a rotary potentiometer which is typically 10k ohm resistance.?When you want forward & reverse off this you have a dead centre which maybe 4.5-5.5k Ohm. So when the stick is central it will be in that range & theelectronics says "do nothing" then from 5.5- 10k it is incrementally increasingspeed in the forward direction & from 5.4 to 0 it reverses & is increasing the speed?in the reverse direction.Some joysticks will just have the 0-10k Ohm output & others have complicated?electronics in the base which communicate with various protocols.On my ambient I had two 2 axis joysticks on a Playstation 2 controller & I boughta piece of electronics called a PS2 input output converter that outputted the 4 joystickaxis to PWM signals that were run through solid state relays to switch power onto the motors. Also had flyback diodes to protect the relays.On my Kelly controllers you can specify a controller that takes joystick input &you would just buy a joystick with 10k Ohm pots & you are sweet!On my current build I am using a new small brushless motor controller ?calleda Vesc. Well I am trialling it at the moment. And will be inputting the joysticksignal to my plc then outputting to the Vesc. Am also arranging a meeting withan automation expert who is good with electronics & will be discussing howwe are achieving a lot of these things.If you are going this route, which I think is great, I would look at somethinglike a Kelly controller that takes a joystick input. Then you could just get a?basic joystick with 10k Ohm output & wire it in. I think when I was asking forthis they called it a boat controller.You may find a piece of electronics out there that converts the pot output ®ulates the voltage to your motors through relays based on this. I knowthere are lots of arduino based devices. The robot shop might be a good source.Run any controller past the group first as there are a lot smarter people onthis mail list than me! I will keep you up to date with what I am doing, but theflight controller that David posted is pretty cool & you would have a?bit more room on board for one than I would.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 1/03/2018, at 11:47 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I have been looking around a bit for a joy stick myself. ?At the moment I have a simple forward reverse switch that reverses polarity. ?Along with the switch for direction I have a potentiometer for speed. ?I also have a left\right switch also reverse polarity. ?I need a joy stick that can have the direction control with speed control all in one. ?I ordered something close from China hoping I could modify it, but I think it is lost ;-( ? ?Maybe in your searching you have come across something suitable?Hank On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:12:39 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Tim,I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enoughfor a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it withvery limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limitsfor novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the directionyou push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centreyou push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick?that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down"Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub?to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way.Alan Sent from my iPad On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv7842235624 -- filtered {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}#yiv7842235624 filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv7842235624 p.yiv7842235624MsoNormal, #yiv7842235624 li.yiv7842235624MsoNormal, #yiv7842235624 div.yiv7842235624MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv7842235624 h3 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:13.5pt;font-weight:bold;}#yiv7842235624 a:link, #yiv7842235624 span.yiv7842235624MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7842235624 a:visited, #yiv7842235624 span.yiv7842235624MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7842235624 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv7842235624 span.yiv7842235624Heading3Char {color:#1F4D78;}#yiv7842235624 span.yiv7842235624EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7842235624 .yiv7842235624MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv7842235624 filtered {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv7842235624 div.yiv7842235624WordSection1 {}#yiv7842235624 Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls?? This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc. Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick ? Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their Virginia class submarines. http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative! Alan Sent from my iPad On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, ? I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way.? In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster.? ? Best, Alec ? On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas. I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this. Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy.? If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's controller with the ?chinaman's hat being the vertical control ) then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by? having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree. At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they have loads of programable control functions relating to the output from the joysticks. As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external? structure. Cheers Alan ? Sent from my iPad On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick.? Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a ?typical? submersible or ??flyer?.? Typical would be like a ?K? boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control.? A ?flyer? is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. ?My boat is a ?flyer? and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control.? For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal.? ?I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick.? Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada ?http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products?.? They can configure just about anything you want.? Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey.? I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out.? The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location.? I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey. ?See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd ? So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e.,? ?typical? or ?flyer??? Got any drawings you want to share? ? Cliff ? On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Ian, I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive, you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction. ? ?I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie. you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down! I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the top of the main joy stick shaft.? I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo the controllers are just out of view) On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds. Alan ? ? ? Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? I was thinking of going with something like this: https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf 3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control.? Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options. This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction, can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface. ? There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches, which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction. ? Cheers, ?Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick Well there is this product.... Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button! Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Sean & David, hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming. Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big. David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300- won't you! That's not bad. Found a small video of it.?https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2 axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows: Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane. Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual. Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Thanks Sean, sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up. I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when? I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to? turn the sub on it's axis.? On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand? free for a camera, HMI or manipulator.? If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft. Cheers Alan ? Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, & not on & off. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling > 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. > I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters > throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional > speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I > am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen > buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached > picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. > I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. > It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights > or display control etc. > If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested > thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 3 14:48:45 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 08:48:45 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick In-Reply-To: <1834751896.9835559.1520076873379@mail.yahoo.com> References: <562642995.26405.1519717801450@wamui-jelly.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1D70762B-A651-4086-8515-8C8E1281921D@yahoo.com> <7889A50D-7A12-41C9-9AD3-8CD3E23A6C4A@yahoo.com> <000c01d3b102$0212e500$0638af00$@telus.net> <458DFEA6-3B34-4B66-A2DC-B3E8E7B18C5A@yahoo.com> <23606142.8351221.1519901223948@mail.yahoo.com> <1142229530.8984134.1519960793017@mail.yahoo.com> <153D142A-FB6B-474A-BA95-CE7297C9DCC0@yahoo.com> <1834751896.9835559.1520076873379@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38E3B5AC-723F-47A4-A9CC-BEF2C9F6E643@yahoo.com> Hank, is the rudder operated manually or off a linear actuator ( as Carsten has recently done) If it is off an actuator you could have a 2 axis joystick that does forward & backward for your main motor on the Y axis & left & right for your rudder off the X axis. You could have another single axis joystick for the vertical thrusters up & down. That would make it really easy for any idiot to pilot. The linear actuator may be pre wired so it can take a joystick forward & back command but on the most basic level you might have two wires from the actuator that you would have to provide the H bridge reversing circuit & the electronics for interpreting the signal from the joysticks potentiometer. There will be off the shelf electronics for doing this, especially on sites like "the robot shop". But again I am pretty sure someone like Kelly Controllers would have a whole motor controller cheap enough that you just plug the joystick in to. Glad to help if you want to go that way. Am meeting this week ( hopefully) with a guy that is good with this stuff so can put it past him. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 4/03/2018, at 12:34 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, Gamma has the original drive motor back in it, so it is a single motor and prop with the original rudder. There is two fixed vertical thrusters, one on each side. I have also added a positioning thruster up front opposite the arm. > Hank > > On Friday, March 2, 2018, 9:14:40 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > just had a look at your post further back & see the potentiometer > doesn't give forward & reverse, you use a switch for that. > What is the motor configuration on your sub. Is it a horizontal thruster > on either side with fixed vertical thrusters. I am loosing track of which > sub is which! > Also do you have a controller for each thruster? > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 3/03/2018, at 4:20 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > Hank, > I was looking for a good article on motor control I thought I had bookmarked > but can't find it anywhere. > Is the potentiometer giving you forward & reverse? If so check what resistance > it is with a multimeter, then you could replace that with a joystick that has a > potentiometer of the same value. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 2/03/2018, at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, I have a controller in the sub working already, the potentiometer is in my hand held control panel. The whole setup works perfect actually. I would like to make it a bit more user friendly. I can live with it the way it is also if it is a big deal to find the right joystick. >> Hank >> >> On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 7:04:56 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> life is complicated in the 21st century. >> The joysticks themselves are pretty simple. A 1 axis joystick is basically a >> leaver that turns a rotary potentiometer which is typically 10k ohm resistance. >> When you want forward & reverse off this you have a dead centre which may >> be 4.5-5.5k Ohm. So when the stick is central it will be in that range & the >> electronics says "do nothing" then from 5.5- 10k it is incrementally increasing >> speed in the forward direction & from 5.4 to 0 it reverses & is increasing the speed >> in the reverse direction. >> Some joysticks will just have the 0-10k Ohm output & others have complicated >> electronics in the base which communicate with various protocols. >> On my ambient I had two 2 axis joysticks on a Playstation 2 controller & I bought >> a piece of electronics called a PS2 input output converter that outputted the 4 joystick >> axis to PWM signals that were run through solid state relays to switch power on >> to the motors. Also had flyback diodes to protect the relays. >> On my Kelly controllers you can specify a controller that takes joystick input & >> you would just buy a joystick with 10k Ohm pots & you are sweet! >> On my current build I am using a new small brushless motor controller called >> a Vesc. Well I am trialling it at the moment. And will be inputting the joystick >> signal to my plc then outputting to the Vesc. Am also arranging a meeting with >> an automation expert who is good with electronics & will be discussing how >> we are achieving a lot of these things. >> If you are going this route, which I think is great, I would look at something >> like a Kelly controller that takes a joystick input. Then you could just get a >> basic joystick with 10k Ohm output & wire it in. I think when I was asking for >> this they called it a boat controller. >> You may find a piece of electronics out there that converts the pot output & >> regulates the voltage to your motors through relays based on this. I know >> there are lots of arduino based devices. The robot shop might be a good source. >> Run any controller past the group first as there are a lot smarter people on >> this mail list than me! I will keep you up to date with what I am doing, but the >> flight controller that David posted is pretty cool & you would have a >> bit more room on board for one than I would. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 1/03/2018, at 11:47 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> I have been looking around a bit for a joy stick myself. At the moment I have a simple forward reverse switch that reverses polarity. Along with the switch for direction I have a potentiometer for speed. I also have a left\right switch also reverse polarity. I need a joy stick that can have the direction control with speed control all in one. I ordered something close from China hoping I could modify it, but I think it is lost ;-( Maybe in your searching you have come across something suitable? >>> Hank >>> >>> On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:12:39 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Tim, >>> I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enough >>> for a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it with >>> very limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limits >>> for novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the direction >>> you push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centre >>> you push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick >>> that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down" >>> Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub >>> to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>> >>> Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls? This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc. >>> Tim >>> >>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick >>> >>> Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight >>> simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their >>> Virginia class submarines. >>> http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines >>> Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative! >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> >>> I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way. In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster. >>> >>> Best, >>> Alec >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Cliff, >>> thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas. >>> I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this. >>> Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy. >>> If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the >>> top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's >>> controller with the chinaman's hat being the vertical control ) >>> then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by >>> having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree. >>> At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis >>> input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they >>> have loads of programable control functions relating to the output >>> from the joysticks. >>> As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my >>> original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components >>> together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external >>> structure. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick. Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a ?typical? submersible or ?flyer?. Typical would be like a ?K? boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control. A ?flyer? is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. My boat is a ?flyer? and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control. For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal. I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick. Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products . They can configure just about anything you want. Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey. I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out. The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location. I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey. See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd >>> >>> So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e., ?typical? or ?flyer?? Got any drawings you want to share? >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Thanks Ian, >>> I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting >>> of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive, >>> you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further >>> from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction. >>> I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie. >>> you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down! >>> I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers >>> come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the >>> top of the main joy stick shaft. >>> I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end >>> of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes >>> Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo >>> the controllers are just out of view) >>> On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling >>> thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control >>> at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control >>> units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> I was thinking of going with something like this: >>> https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf >>> 3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control. Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options. >>> This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction, >>> can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface. >>> >>> There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches, >>> which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Ian. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick >>> >>> Well there is this product.... >>> Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System >>> >>> Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button! >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Sean & David, >>> hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth >>> limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices >>> set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming. >>> Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David >>> has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big. >>> David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300- >>> won't you! That's not bad. >>> Found a small video of it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw >>> I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf >>> semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2 >>> axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work! >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows: >>> >>> Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. >>> >>> Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane. >>> >>> Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual. >>> >>> Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Sean, >>> sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up. >>> I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as >>> I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient >>> works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could >>> however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when >>> I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to >>> turn the sub on it's axis. >>> On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand >>> free for a camera, HMI or manipulator. >>> If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger >>> operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical >>> thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, >>> & not on & off. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> > On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> > >>> > Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling >>> > 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. >>> > I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters >>> > throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional >>> > speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I >>> > am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen >>> > buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached >>> > picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. >>> > I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. >>> > It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights >>> > or display control etc. >>> > If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested >>> > thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! >>> > Alan >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPad >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 3 14:55:41 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 08:55:41 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick In-Reply-To: <1834751896.9835559.1520076873379@mail.yahoo.com> References: <562642995.26405.1519717801450@wamui-jelly.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1D70762B-A651-4086-8515-8C8E1281921D@yahoo.com> <7889A50D-7A12-41C9-9AD3-8CD3E23A6C4A@yahoo.com> <000c01d3b102$0212e500$0638af00$@telus.net> <458DFEA6-3B34-4B66-A2DC-B3E8E7B18C5A@yahoo.com> <23606142.8351221.1519901223948@mail.yahoo.com> <1142229530.8984134.1519960793017@mail.yahoo.com> <153D142A-FB6B-474A-BA95-CE7297C9DCC0@yahoo.com> <1834751896.9835559.1520076873379@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7673B183-7D1C-4DA2-A838-980F70028AC6@yahoo.com> Hank, I remember a while back Jon posting about a motor controller that could probably do all that, plus it had input for radio control. I think he bought a couple. For single handling of the sub launch, radio control can save you using those waders. With an actuator on the steering you could drive the sub off the trailer & take it to the jetty for boarding. Great party trick for spectators. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 4/03/2018, at 12:34 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, Gamma has the original drive motor back in it, so it is a single motor and prop with the original rudder. There is two fixed vertical thrusters, one on each side. I have also added a positioning thruster up front opposite the arm. > Hank > > On Friday, March 2, 2018, 9:14:40 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > just had a look at your post further back & see the potentiometer > doesn't give forward & reverse, you use a switch for that. > What is the motor configuration on your sub. Is it a horizontal thruster > on either side with fixed vertical thrusters. I am loosing track of which > sub is which! > Also do you have a controller for each thruster? > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 3/03/2018, at 4:20 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > Hank, > I was looking for a good article on motor control I thought I had bookmarked > but can't find it anywhere. > Is the potentiometer giving you forward & reverse? If so check what resistance > it is with a multimeter, then you could replace that with a joystick that has a > potentiometer of the same value. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 2/03/2018, at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, I have a controller in the sub working already, the potentiometer is in my hand held control panel. The whole setup works perfect actually. I would like to make it a bit more user friendly. I can live with it the way it is also if it is a big deal to find the right joystick. >> Hank >> >> On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 7:04:56 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> life is complicated in the 21st century. >> The joysticks themselves are pretty simple. A 1 axis joystick is basically a >> leaver that turns a rotary potentiometer which is typically 10k ohm resistance. >> When you want forward & reverse off this you have a dead centre which may >> be 4.5-5.5k Ohm. So when the stick is central it will be in that range & the >> electronics says "do nothing" then from 5.5- 10k it is incrementally increasing >> speed in the forward direction & from 5.4 to 0 it reverses & is increasing the speed >> in the reverse direction. >> Some joysticks will just have the 0-10k Ohm output & others have complicated >> electronics in the base which communicate with various protocols. >> On my ambient I had two 2 axis joysticks on a Playstation 2 controller & I bought >> a piece of electronics called a PS2 input output converter that outputted the 4 joystick >> axis to PWM signals that were run through solid state relays to switch power on >> to the motors. Also had flyback diodes to protect the relays. >> On my Kelly controllers you can specify a controller that takes joystick input & >> you would just buy a joystick with 10k Ohm pots & you are sweet! >> On my current build I am using a new small brushless motor controller called >> a Vesc. Well I am trialling it at the moment. And will be inputting the joystick >> signal to my plc then outputting to the Vesc. Am also arranging a meeting with >> an automation expert who is good with electronics & will be discussing how >> we are achieving a lot of these things. >> If you are going this route, which I think is great, I would look at something >> like a Kelly controller that takes a joystick input. Then you could just get a >> basic joystick with 10k Ohm output & wire it in. I think when I was asking for >> this they called it a boat controller. >> You may find a piece of electronics out there that converts the pot output & >> regulates the voltage to your motors through relays based on this. I know >> there are lots of arduino based devices. The robot shop might be a good source. >> Run any controller past the group first as there are a lot smarter people on >> this mail list than me! I will keep you up to date with what I am doing, but the >> flight controller that David posted is pretty cool & you would have a >> bit more room on board for one than I would. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 1/03/2018, at 11:47 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> I have been looking around a bit for a joy stick myself. At the moment I have a simple forward reverse switch that reverses polarity. Along with the switch for direction I have a potentiometer for speed. I also have a left\right switch also reverse polarity. I need a joy stick that can have the direction control with speed control all in one. I ordered something close from China hoping I could modify it, but I think it is lost ;-( Maybe in your searching you have come across something suitable? >>> Hank >>> >>> On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:12:39 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Tim, >>> I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enough >>> for a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it with >>> very limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limits >>> for novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the direction >>> you push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centre >>> you push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick >>> that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down" >>> Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub >>> to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>> >>> Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls? This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc. >>> Tim >>> >>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick >>> >>> Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight >>> simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their >>> Virginia class submarines. >>> http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines >>> Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative! >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> >>> I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way. In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster. >>> >>> Best, >>> Alec >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Cliff, >>> thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas. >>> I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this. >>> Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy. >>> If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the >>> top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's >>> controller with the chinaman's hat being the vertical control ) >>> then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by >>> having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree. >>> At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis >>> input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they >>> have loads of programable control functions relating to the output >>> from the joysticks. >>> As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my >>> original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components >>> together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external >>> structure. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick. Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a ?typical? submersible or ?flyer?. Typical would be like a ?K? boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control. A ?flyer? is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. My boat is a ?flyer? and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control. For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal. I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick. Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products . They can configure just about anything you want. Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey. I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out. The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location. I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey. See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd >>> >>> So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e., ?typical? or ?flyer?? Got any drawings you want to share? >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Thanks Ian, >>> I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting >>> of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive, >>> you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further >>> from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction. >>> I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie. >>> you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down! >>> I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers >>> come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the >>> top of the main joy stick shaft. >>> I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end >>> of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes >>> Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo >>> the controllers are just out of view) >>> On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling >>> thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control >>> at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control >>> units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> I was thinking of going with something like this: >>> https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf >>> 3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control. Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options. >>> This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction, >>> can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface. >>> >>> There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches, >>> which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Ian. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick >>> >>> Well there is this product.... >>> Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System >>> >>> Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button! >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Sean & David, >>> hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth >>> limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices >>> set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming. >>> Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David >>> has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big. >>> David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300- >>> won't you! That's not bad. >>> Found a small video of it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw >>> I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf >>> semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2 >>> axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work! >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows: >>> >>> Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. >>> >>> Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane. >>> >>> Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual. >>> >>> Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Sean, >>> sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up. >>> I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as >>> I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient >>> works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could >>> however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when >>> I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to >>> turn the sub on it's axis. >>> On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand >>> free for a camera, HMI or manipulator. >>> If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger >>> operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical >>> thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, >>> & not on & off. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> > On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> > >>> > Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling >>> > 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. >>> > I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters >>> > throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional >>> > speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I >>> > am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen >>> > buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached >>> > picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. >>> > I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. >>> > It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights >>> > or display control etc. >>> > If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested >>> > thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! >>> > Alan >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPad >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 3 15:11:16 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 20:11:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick In-Reply-To: <7673B183-7D1C-4DA2-A838-980F70028AC6@yahoo.com> References: <562642995.26405.1519717801450@wamui-jelly.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1D70762B-A651-4086-8515-8C8E1281921D@yahoo.com> <7889A50D-7A12-41C9-9AD3-8CD3E23A6C4A@yahoo.com> <000c01d3b102$0212e500$0638af00$@telus.net> <458DFEA6-3B34-4B66-A2DC-B3E8E7B18C5A@yahoo.com> <23606142.8351221.1519901223948@mail.yahoo.com> <1142229530.8984134.1519960793017@mail.yahoo.com> <153D142A-FB6B-474A-BA95-CE7297C9DCC0@yahoo.com> <1834751896.9835559.1520076873379@mail.yahoo.com> <7673B183-7D1C-4DA2-A838-980F70028AC6@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1248235750.10005374.1520107876142@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Yes remote control to the dock would be fun. ?I don't go to the dock anymore, I just touch the brakes in the truck and let Gamma draft off on its own. ?After I park the truck, I just take my inflatable from shore and chase down the sub. ?This works fantastic because at times the dock is to full and it is difficult to get Gamma tied up. ?Another problem is people wanting to look inside and generally get in my way if it is tied to the dock. ?I just tow the inflatable behind Gamma and use it as my surface marker with a diver flag. ?The inflatable can also carry a DC generator to power the sub while under way.Hank On Saturday, March 3, 2018, 12:56:07 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I remember a while back Jon posting about a motor controller that could probablydo all that, plus it had input for radio control. I think he bought a couple.For single handling of the sub launch, radio control can save you using thosewaders. With an actuator on the steering you could drive the sub off the trailer& take it to the jetty for boarding. Great party trick for spectators.Alan Sent from my iPad On 4/03/2018, at 12:34 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, ?Gamma has the original drive motor back in it, so it is a single motor and prop with the original rudder. ?There is two fixed vertical thrusters, one on each side. ?I have also added a positioning thruster up front opposite the arm.?Hank ? On Friday, March 2, 2018, 9:14:40 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,just had a look at your post further back & see the potentiometer?doesn't give forward & reverse, you use a switch for that.What is the motor configuration on your sub. Is it a horizontal thrusteron either side with fixed vertical thrusters. I am loosing track of whichsub is which!Also do you have a controller for each thruster?Alan Sent from my iPad On 3/03/2018, at 4:20 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I was looking for a good article on motor control I thought I had bookmarkedbut can't find it anywhere.?Is the potentiometer giving you forward & reverse? If so check what resistanceit is with a multimeter, then you could replace that with a joystick that has a?potentiometer of the same value.Alan? Sent from my iPad On 2/03/2018, at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I have a controller in the sub working already, the potentiometer is in my hand held control panel. ?The whole setup works perfect actually. ?I would like to make it a bit more user friendly. ?I can ?live with it the way it is also if it is a big deal to find the right joystick.Hank On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 7:04:56 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,life is complicated in the 21st century.?The joysticks themselves are pretty simple. A 1 axis joystick is basically aleaver that turns a rotary potentiometer which is typically 10k ohm resistance.?When you want forward & reverse off this you have a dead centre which maybe 4.5-5.5k Ohm. So when the stick is central it will be in that range & theelectronics says "do nothing" then from 5.5- 10k it is incrementally increasingspeed in the forward direction & from 5.4 to 0 it reverses & is increasing the speed?in the reverse direction.Some joysticks will just have the 0-10k Ohm output & others have complicated?electronics in the base which communicate with various protocols.On my ambient I had two 2 axis joysticks on a Playstation 2 controller & I boughta piece of electronics called a PS2 input output converter that outputted the 4 joystickaxis to PWM signals that were run through solid state relays to switch power onto the motors. Also had flyback diodes to protect the relays.On my Kelly controllers you can specify a controller that takes joystick input &you would just buy a joystick with 10k Ohm pots & you are sweet!On my current build I am using a new small brushless motor controller ?calleda Vesc. Well I am trialling it at the moment. And will be inputting the joysticksignal to my plc then outputting to the Vesc. Am also arranging a meeting withan automation expert who is good with electronics & will be discussing howwe are achieving a lot of these things.If you are going this route, which I think is great, I would look at somethinglike a Kelly controller that takes a joystick input. Then you could just get a?basic joystick with 10k Ohm output & wire it in. I think when I was asking forthis they called it a boat controller.You may find a piece of electronics out there that converts the pot output ®ulates the voltage to your motors through relays based on this. I knowthere are lots of arduino based devices. The robot shop might be a good source.Run any controller past the group first as there are a lot smarter people onthis mail list than me! I will keep you up to date with what I am doing, but theflight controller that David posted is pretty cool & you would have a?bit more room on board for one than I would.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 1/03/2018, at 11:47 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I have been looking around a bit for a joy stick myself. ?At the moment I have a simple forward reverse switch that reverses polarity. ?Along with the switch for direction I have a potentiometer for speed. ?I also have a left\right switch also reverse polarity. ?I need a joy stick that can have the direction control with speed control all in one. ?I ordered something close from China hoping I could modify it, but I think it is lost ;-( ? ?Maybe in your searching you have come across something suitable?Hank On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:12:39 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Tim,I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enoughfor a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it withvery limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limitsfor novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the directionyou push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centreyou push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick?that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down"Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub?to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way.Alan Sent from my iPad On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv5608401101 -- filtered {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}#yiv5608401101 filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv5608401101 p.yiv5608401101MsoNormal, #yiv5608401101 li.yiv5608401101MsoNormal, #yiv5608401101 div.yiv5608401101MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv5608401101 h3 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:13.5pt;font-weight:bold;}#yiv5608401101 a:link, #yiv5608401101 span.yiv5608401101MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5608401101 a:visited, #yiv5608401101 span.yiv5608401101MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5608401101 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv5608401101 span.yiv5608401101Heading3Char {color:#1F4D78;}#yiv5608401101 span.yiv5608401101EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv5608401101 .yiv5608401101MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv5608401101 filtered {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv5608401101 div.yiv5608401101WordSection1 {}#yiv5608401101 Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls?? This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc. Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick ? Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their Virginia class submarines. http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative! Alan Sent from my iPad On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, ? I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way.? In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster.? ? Best, Alec ? On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas. I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this. Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy.? If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's controller with the ?chinaman's hat being the vertical control ) then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by? having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree. At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they have loads of programable control functions relating to the output from the joysticks. As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external? structure. Cheers Alan ? Sent from my iPad On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick.? Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a ?typical? submersible or ??flyer?.? Typical would be like a ?K? boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control.? A ?flyer? is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. ?My boat is a ?flyer? and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control.? For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal.? ?I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick.? Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada ?http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products?.? They can configure just about anything you want.? Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey.? I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out.? The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location.? I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey. ?See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd ? So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e.,? ?typical? or ?flyer??? Got any drawings you want to share? ? Cliff ? On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Ian, I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive, you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction. ? ?I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie. you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down! I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the top of the main joy stick shaft.? I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo the controllers are just out of view) On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds. Alan ? ? ? Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? I was thinking of going with something like this: https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf 3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control.? Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options. This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction, can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface. ? There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches, which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction. ? Cheers, ?Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick Well there is this product.... Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button! Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Sean & David, hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming. Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big. David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300- won't you! That's not bad. Found a small video of it.?https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2 axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows: Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane. Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual. Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Thanks Sean, sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up. I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when? I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to? turn the sub on it's axis.? On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand? free for a camera, HMI or manipulator.? If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft. Cheers Alan ? Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, & not on & off. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling > 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. > I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters > throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional > speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I > am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen > buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached > picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. > I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. > It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights > or display control etc. > If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested > thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 3 17:41:03 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2018 17:41:03 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick In-Reply-To: <1248235750.10005374.1520107876142@mail.yahoo.com> References: <562642995.26405.1519717801450@wamui-jelly.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <23606142.8351221.1519901223948@mail.yahoo.com> <1142229530.8984134.1519960793017@mail.yahoo.com> <153D142A-FB6B-474A-BA95-CE7297C9DCC0@yahoo.com> <1834751896.9835559.1520076873379@mail.yahoo.com> <7673B183-7D1C-4DA2-A838-980F70028AC6@yahoo.com> <1248235750.10005374.1520107876142@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7JWK1b8DdCa00GcQfKJTHuWmmoAa2jfeFbfvieDJKNdxPguzcZfuoQ5VaJNNqhoJPzjh4mrYA7UD7-bcj7zKKdmMbqwhZmF52KdPXIkv9KQ=@protonmail.com> Hank, this may or may not matter given the relative remoteness of the inland waters that you're diving in (and the fact that a lot of interior lake traffic wouldn't know the collision regulations from a phone book), but the ex- Coast Guard in me feels compelled to mention that an unmanned inflatable tender apparently making way of its own volition is bound to raise a few eyebrows, and space permitting, I would be inclined to show colours (alpha flag and sport diver flag) as well as appropriate lights and/or dayshapes to mark the tender as either a vessel not under command or a vessel being towed. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 3, 2018, 13:11, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alan, > Yes remote control to the dock would be fun. I don't go to the dock anymore, I just touch the brakes in the truck and let Gamma draft off on its own. After I park the truck, I just take my inflatable from shore and chase down the sub. This works fantastic because at times the dock is to full and it is difficult to get Gamma tied up. Another problem is people wanting to look inside and generally get in my way if it is tied to the dock. I just tow the inflatable behind Gamma and use it as my surface marker with a diver flag. The inflatable can also carry a DC generator to power the sub while under way. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 3, 2018, 12:56:07 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, > I remember a while back Jon posting about a motor controller that could probably > do all that, plus it had input for radio control. I think he bought a couple. > For single handling of the sub launch, radio control can save you using those > waders. With an actuator on the steering you could drive the sub off the trailer > & take it to the jetty for boarding. Great party trick for spectators. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 4/03/2018, at 12:34 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Alan, Gamma has the original drive motor back in it, so it is a single motor and prop with the original rudder. There is two fixed vertical thrusters, one on each side. I have also added a positioning thruster up front opposite the arm. >> Hank >> >> On Friday, March 2, 2018, 9:14:40 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hank, >> just had a look at your post further back & see the potentiometer >> doesn't give forward & reverse, you use a switch for that. >> What is the motor configuration on your sub. Is it a horizontal thruster >> on either side with fixed vertical thrusters. I am loosing track of which >> sub is which! >> Also do you have a controller for each thruster? >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 3/03/2018, at 4:20 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> >> >> Hank, >> I was looking for a good article on motor control I thought I had bookmarked >> but can't find it anywhere. >> Is the potentiometer giving you forward & reverse? If so check what resistance >> it is with a multimeter, then you could replace that with a joystick that has a >> potentiometer of the same value. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 2/03/2018, at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Alan, I have a controller in the sub working already, the potentiometer is in my hand held control panel. The whole setup works perfect actually. I would like to make it a bit more user friendly. I can live with it the way it is also if it is a big deal to find the right joystick. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 7:04:56 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hank, >>> life is complicated in the 21st century. >>> The joysticks themselves are pretty simple. A 1 axis joystick is basically a >>> leaver that turns a rotary potentiometer which is typically 10k ohm resistance. >>> When you want forward & reverse off this you have a dead centre which may >>> be 4.5-5.5k Ohm. So when the stick is central it will be in that range & the >>> electronics says "do nothing" then from 5.5- 10k it is incrementally increasing >>> speed in the forward direction & from 5.4 to 0 it reverses & is increasing the speed >>> in the reverse direction. >>> Some joysticks will just have the 0-10k Ohm output & others have complicated >>> electronics in the base which communicate with various protocols. >>> On my ambient I had two 2 axis joysticks on a Playstation 2 controller & I bought >>> a piece of electronics called a PS2 input output converter that outputted the 4 joystick >>> axis to PWM signals that were run through solid state relays to switch power on >>> to the motors. Also had flyback diodes to protect the relays. >>> On my Kelly controllers you can specify a controller that takes joystick input & >>> you would just buy a joystick with 10k Ohm pots & you are sweet! >>> On my current build I am using a new small brushless motor controller called >>> a Vesc. Well I am trialling it at the moment. And will be inputting the joystick >>> signal to my plc then outputting to the Vesc. Am also arranging a meeting with >>> an automation expert who is good with electronics & will be discussing how >>> we are achieving a lot of these things. >>> If you are going this route, which I think is great, I would look at something >>> like a Kelly controller that takes a joystick input. Then you could just get a >>> basic joystick with 10k Ohm output & wire it in. I think when I was asking for >>> this they called it a boat controller. >>> You may find a piece of electronics out there that converts the pot output & >>> regulates the voltage to your motors through relays based on this. I know >>> there are lots of arduino based devices. The robot shop might be a good source. >>> Run any controller past the group first as there are a lot smarter people on >>> this mail list than me! I will keep you up to date with what I am doing, but the >>> flight controller that David posted is pretty cool & you would have a >>> bit more room on board for one than I would. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 1/03/2018, at 11:47 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Alan, >>>> I have been looking around a bit for a joy stick myself. At the moment I have a simple forward reverse switch that reverses polarity. Along with the switch for direction I have a potentiometer for speed. I also have a left\right switch also reverse polarity. I need a joy stick that can have the direction control with speed control all in one. I ordered something close from China hoping I could modify it, but I think it is lost ;-( Maybe in your searching you have come across something suitable? >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:12:39 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Tim, >>>> I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enough >>>> for a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it with >>>> very limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limits >>>> for novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the direction >>>> you push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centre >>>> you push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick >>>> that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down" >>>> Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub >>>> to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls? This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc. >>>> >>>> Tim >>>> >>>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick >>>> >>>> Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight >>>> >>>> simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their >>>> >>>> Virginia class submarines. >>>> >>>> http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines >>>> >>>> Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative! >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Alan, >>>>> >>>>> I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way. In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Cliff, >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas. >>>>>> >>>>>> I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this. >>>>>> >>>>>> Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy. >>>>>> >>>>>> If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the >>>>>> >>>>>> top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's >>>>>> >>>>>> controller with the chinaman's hat being the vertical control ) >>>>>> >>>>>> then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by >>>>>> >>>>>> having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis >>>>>> >>>>>> input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they >>>>>> >>>>>> have loads of programable control functions relating to the output >>>>>> >>>>>> from the joysticks. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my >>>>>> >>>>>> original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components >>>>>> >>>>>> together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external >>>>>> >>>>>> structure. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick. Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a ?typical? submersible or ?flyer?. Typical would be like a ?K? boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control. A ?flyer? is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. My boat is a ?flyer? and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control. For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal. I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick. Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products . They can configure just about anything you want. Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey. I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out. The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location. I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey. See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e., ?typical? or ?flyer?? Got any drawings you want to share? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cliff >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks Ian, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> top of the main joy stick shaft. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the controllers are just out of view) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was thinking of going with something like this: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control. Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ian. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well there is this product.... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [image1.JPG][image2.JPG] >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Sean & David, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> won't you! That's not bad. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Found a small video of it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sean >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Sean, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> turn the sub on it's axis. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> free for a camera, HMI or manipulator. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & not on & off. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or display control etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 3 17:47:48 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 22:47:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick In-Reply-To: <7JWK1b8DdCa00GcQfKJTHuWmmoAa2jfeFbfvieDJKNdxPguzcZfuoQ5VaJNNqhoJPzjh4mrYA7UD7-bcj7zKKdmMbqwhZmF52KdPXIkv9KQ=@protonmail.com> References: <562642995.26405.1519717801450@wamui-jelly.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <23606142.8351221.1519901223948@mail.yahoo.com> <1142229530.8984134.1519960793017@mail.yahoo.com> <153D142A-FB6B-474A-BA95-CE7297C9DCC0@yahoo.com> <1834751896.9835559.1520076873379@mail.yahoo.com> <7673B183-7D1C-4DA2-A838-980F70028AC6@yahoo.com> <1248235750.10005374.1520107876142@mail.yahoo.com> <7JWK1b8DdCa00GcQfKJTHuWmmoAa2jfeFbfvieDJKNdxPguzcZfuoQ5VaJNNqhoJPzjh4mrYA7UD7-bcj7zKKdmMbqwhZmF52KdPXIkv9KQ=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <417723056.10083242.1520117268354@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,?Believe me I have considered these concerns. ? I have worried that concerned boaters may come over to investigate an empty boat. ?I may have to tie the boat to shore and use my dive buoy. ?Having said that, all my future dives in next 6 months are planned with ?support boats ?and crew.Hank On Saturday, March 3, 2018, 3:41:26 PM MST, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, this may or may not matter given the relative remoteness of the inland waters that you're diving in (and the fact that a lot of interior lake traffic wouldn't know the collision regulations from a phone book), but the ex- Coast Guard in me feels compelled to mention that an unmanned inflatable tender apparently making way of its own volition is bound to raise a few eyebrows, and space permitting, I would be inclined to show colours (alpha flag and sport diver flag) as well as appropriate lights and/or dayshapes to mark the tender as either a vessel not under command or a vessel being towed. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 3, 2018, 13:11, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Alan,Yes remote control to the dock would be fun. ?I don't go to the dock anymore, I just touch the brakes in the truck and let Gamma draft off on its own. ?After I park the truck, I just take my inflatable from shore and chase down the sub. ?This works fantastic because at times the dock is to full and it is difficult to get Gamma tied up. ?Another problem is people wanting to look inside and generally get in my way if it is tied to the dock. ?I just tow the inflatable behind Gamma and use it as my surface marker with a diver flag. ?The inflatable can also carry a DC generator to power the sub while under way.Hank On Saturday, March 3, 2018, 12:56:07 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I remember a while back Jon posting about a motor controller that could probablydo all that, plus it had input for radio control. I think he bought a couple.For single handling of the sub launch, radio control can save you using thosewaders. With an actuator on the steering you could drive the sub off the trailer& take it to the jetty for boarding. Great party trick for spectators.Alan Sent from my iPad On 4/03/2018, at 12:34 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, ?Gamma has the original drive motor back in it, so it is a single motor and prop with the original rudder. ?There is two fixed vertical thrusters, one on each side. ?I have also added a positioning thruster up front opposite the arm.?Hank ? On Friday, March 2, 2018, 9:14:40 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,just had a look at your post further back & see the potentiometer?doesn't give forward & reverse, you use a switch for that.What is the motor configuration on your sub. Is it a horizontal thrusteron either side with fixed vertical thrusters. I am loosing track of whichsub is which!Also do you have a controller for each thruster?Alan Sent from my iPad On 3/03/2018, at 4:20 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I was looking for a good article on motor control I thought I had bookmarkedbut can't find it anywhere.?Is the potentiometer giving you forward & reverse? If so check what resistanceit is with a multimeter, then you could replace that with a joystick that has a?potentiometer of the same value.Alan? Sent from my iPad On 2/03/2018, at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I have a controller in the sub working already, the potentiometer is in my hand held control panel. ?The whole setup works perfect actually. ?I would like to make it a bit more user friendly. ?I can ?live with it the way it is also if it is a big deal to find the right joystick.Hank On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 7:04:56 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,life is complicated in the 21st century.?The joysticks themselves are pretty simple. A 1 axis joystick is basically aleaver that turns a rotary potentiometer which is typically 10k ohm resistance.?When you want forward & reverse off this you have a dead centre which maybe 4.5-5.5k Ohm. So when the stick is central it will be in that range & theelectronics says "do nothing" then from 5.5- 10k it is incrementally increasingspeed in the forward direction & from 5.4 to 0 it reverses & is increasing the speed?in the reverse direction.Some joysticks will just have the 0-10k Ohm output & others have complicated?electronics in the base which communicate with various protocols.On my ambient I had two 2 axis joysticks on a Playstation 2 controller & I boughta piece of electronics called a PS2 input output converter that outputted the 4 joystickaxis to PWM signals that were run through solid state relays to switch power onto the motors. Also had flyback diodes to protect the relays.On my Kelly controllers you can specify a controller that takes joystick input &you would just buy a joystick with 10k Ohm pots & you are sweet!On my current build I am using a new small brushless motor controller ?calleda Vesc. Well I am trialling it at the moment. And will be inputting the joysticksignal to my plc then outputting to the Vesc. Am also arranging a meeting withan automation expert who is good with electronics & will be discussing howwe are achieving a lot of these things.If you are going this route, which I think is great, I would look at somethinglike a Kelly controller that takes a joystick input. Then you could just get a?basic joystick with 10k Ohm output & wire it in. I think when I was asking forthis they called it a boat controller.You may find a piece of electronics out there that converts the pot output ®ulates the voltage to your motors through relays based on this. I knowthere are lots of arduino based devices. The robot shop might be a good source.Run any controller past the group first as there are a lot smarter people onthis mail list than me! I will keep you up to date with what I am doing, but theflight controller that David posted is pretty cool & you would have a?bit more room on board for one than I would.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 1/03/2018, at 11:47 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I have been looking around a bit for a joy stick myself. ?At the moment I have a simple forward reverse switch that reverses polarity. ?Along with the switch for direction I have a potentiometer for speed. ?I also have a left\right switch also reverse polarity. ?I need a joy stick that can have the direction control with speed control all in one. ?I ordered something close from China hoping I could modify it, but I think it is lost ;-( ? ?Maybe in your searching you have come across something suitable?Hank On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:12:39 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Tim,I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enoughfor a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it withvery limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limitsfor novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the directionyou push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centreyou push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick?that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down"Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub?to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way.Alan Sent from my iPad On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls?? This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc. Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick ? Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their Virginia class submarines. http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative! Alan Sent from my iPad On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, ? I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way.? In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster.? ? Best, Alec ? On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas. I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this. Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy.? If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's controller with the ?chinaman's hat being the vertical control ) then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by? having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree. At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they have loads of programable control functions relating to the output from the joysticks. As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external? structure. Cheers Alan ? Sent from my iPad On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick.? Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a ?typical? submersible or ??flyer?.? Typical would be like a ?K? boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control.? A ?flyer? is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. ?My boat is a ?flyer? and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control.? For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal.? ?I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick.? Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada ?http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products?.? They can configure just about anything you want.? Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey.? I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out.? The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location.? I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey. ?See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd ? So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e.,? ?typical? or ?flyer??? Got any drawings you want to share? ? Cliff ? On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Ian, I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive, you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction. ? ?I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie. you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down! I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the top of the main joy stick shaft.? I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo the controllers are just out of view) On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds. Alan ? ? ? Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? I was thinking of going with something like this: https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf 3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control.? Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options. This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction, can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface. ? There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches, which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction. ? Cheers, ?Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick Well there is this product.... Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button! Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Sean & David, hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming. Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big. David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300- won't you! That's not bad. Found a small video of it.?https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2 axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work! Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows: Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane. Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual. Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Thanks Sean, sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up. I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when? I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to? turn the sub on it's axis.? On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand? free for a camera, HMI or manipulator.? If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft. Cheers Alan ? Sent from my iPad On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, & not on & off. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling > 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. > I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters > throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional > speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I > am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen > buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached > picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. > I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. > It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights > or display control etc. > If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested > thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 3 20:47:14 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 01:47:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DanH ? References: <444310787.7911296.1520128034118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <444310787.7911296.1520128034118@mail.yahoo.com> Anybody know Dan Hryorcoffs current email address? Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 3 20:58:01 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 15:58:01 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DanH ? In-Reply-To: <444310787.7911296.1520128034118@mail.yahoo.com> References: <444310787.7911296.1520128034118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <444310787.7911296.1520128034118@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, it's "jumachine at comcast.net Rick On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 3:47 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Anybody know Dan Hryorcoffs current email address? > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 5 16:16:10 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 21:16:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Test References: <180744347.8623985.1520284570763.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <180744347.8623985.1520284570763@mail.yahoo.com> test -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 5 16:25:33 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:25:33 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Test Message-ID: <830755633.12932.1520285133370@wamui-mouse.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 5 16:35:08 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 21:35:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Test In-Reply-To: <180744347.8623985.1520284570763@mail.yahoo.com> References: <180744347.8623985.1520284570763.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <180744347.8623985.1520284570763@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <527444190.11320440.1520285708729@mail.yahoo.com> receivedHank On Monday, March 5, 2018, 2:16:33 PM MST, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: test_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 5 16:42:27 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 21:42:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Test In-Reply-To: <830755633.12932.1520285133370@wamui-mouse.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <830755633.12932.1520285133370@wamui-mouse.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1231143772.7277455.1520286147566@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks.? :) On Monday, March 5, 2018 4:28 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv9911246870 #yiv9911246870 -- DIV {margin:0px;}#yiv9911246870 tset... -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Mar 5, 2018 1:16 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Test test _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 5 17:19:18 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 11:19:18 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Test In-Reply-To: <1231143772.7277455.1520286147566@mail.yahoo.com> References: <830755633.12932.1520285133370@wamui-mouse.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1231143772.7277455.1520286147566@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Receiving from the ends of the Earth. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 6/03/2018, at 10:42 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks. :) > > > > On Monday, March 5, 2018 4:28 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > tset... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Mar 5, 2018 1:16 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Test > > test > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 5 17:24:14 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:24:14 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Test In-Reply-To: References: <830755633.12932.1520285133370@wamui-mouse.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1231143772.7277455.1520286147566@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sunny California here. On Mon, Mar 5, 2018, 2:20 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Receiving from the ends of the Earth. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 6/03/2018, at 10:42 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks. :) > > > > On Monday, March 5, 2018 4:28 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > tset... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Mar 5, 2018 1:16 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Test > > test > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 5 19:47:15 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:47:15 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] NASA, on lithium batteries: Message-ID: <2326cb4c-10c9-eaca-357a-ace41f73316d@ohiohills.com> Prognostics and Health Monitoring of Li Batteries: Application to Electric Vehicles https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20180001482 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 5 23:06:21 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Eric Bruhahn via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:06:21 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Hull Calculations In-Reply-To: <1011232039.838243.1518962305966@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1011232039.838243.1518962305966@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Jon, I guess that's what I get for trying to use the Office 365 version of Word. Got a real version and it works just fine. Anyway I got a lot of variations of pressure hulls calculated now and I think I've got a design narrowed down. -Eric On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 5:58 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > You have to enable Macros. Different versions of MS excel can be > different, but when you open the document look for "warnings" at the top. > I get two of them, the first is called "Protected View" and warns that the > document came from the internet and might be unsafe. There is a button > "Enable Editing" that has to be clicked. > > The second is called, "Security Warning" and is where you enable Macros. > Click on "Enable Content". > > Jon > > > On Saturday, February 17, 2018 10:37 PM, Eric Bruhahn via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, > > I've been having issues getting the ABSHullCalc spreadsheet to work for > me, most of the function macros show as #MACRO? using Open Office Calc or > #NAME? using MS Excel even with macros enabled. > > So I've been trying to use Procedure 2-2 in the Pressure Vessel Design > Manual and having some questions. > > For a 120" cylinder including heads, 40" diameter with 0.25" thick 516gr70 > plate and a Px of 175 psi I'm getting Pa=29.2psi. So, to calculate required > stiffeners to raise Pa I'm trying to use 1.25"x0.25" T rings with 10" > spacing (Ls) and getting I=0.618, As=0.625 giving me Factor "B" of 1,411 if > P in the calculation is 14.7 psi. Now the problem with this is my Factor > "B" is not even shown on Figure 2-1g. Increasing my Ls to 20" gives Factor > "B" of 1,568, closer but still short of the lowest number in the figure of > 2,500. In step 10 am I reading it right as I=(0.16*(Do^3)*Px*Ls)/E ? > > Can anyone see what I'm doing wrong here? > > -Eric > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 10:33:03 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 10:33:03 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice Message-ID: <20180309153305.LORWV.236750.root@cdptpa-web08> Getting ready to take some very straight SS tubing and bend it for installation. Never bent tubing before but I have a small hand bender and an idea. I was thinking on using something rigid but something I could form/bend by hand (heavy wire?) and make a template to then bend the final piece against. Looking for advice form those who have done this. Thanks, Steve From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 11:05:06 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 08:05:06 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice Message-ID: <20180309080506.B47F2840@m0117458.ppops.net> Hi Steve, It's kind of an art, I've bent a number of odd stainless pieces, If it's just an arc it's not too difficult, if you have a more complex piece you may have to do it more than once. Sometimes it gets to the point where you just have to start over if the piece ends up too mangled. But yes a pattern piece can be helpful. I end up looking for stationary structures that I can use as bending platforms. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 10:33:03 -0500 Getting ready to take some very straight SS tubing and bend it for installation. Never bent tubing before but I have a small hand bender and an idea. I was thinking on using something rigid but something I could form/bend by hand (heavy wire?) and make a template to then bend the final piece against. Looking for advice form those who have done this. Thanks, Steve _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 11:09:25 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 17:09:25 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice In-Reply-To: <20180309153305.LORWV.236750.root@cdptpa-web08> References: <20180309153305.LORWV.236750.root@cdptpa-web08> Message-ID: <04f401d3b7c0$feb190d0$fc14b270$@nl> Hi Steve, What is the diameter? HP Lines of 6 or 10 mm? Best is to use a bending tool for the specific diameter. Br, Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: vrijdag 9 maart 2018 16:33 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice Getting ready to take some very straight SS tubing and bend it for installation. Never bent tubing before but I have a small hand bender and an idea. I was thinking on using something rigid but something I could form/bend by hand (heavy wire?) and make a template to then bend the final piece against. Looking for advice form those who have done this. Thanks, Steve _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 12:33:28 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 12:33:28 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice In-Reply-To: <04f401d3b7c0$feb190d0$fc14b270$@nl> Message-ID: <20180309173328.CG6DW.238399.root@cdptpa-web08> 1/4" (19 MM OD). For now it is the LP O2. Yes the bender is for this size range. Thanks, Steve ---- emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Steve, > > What is the diameter? HP Lines of 6 or 10 mm? > Best is to use a bending tool for the specific diameter. > > Br, Emile > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > Namens Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: vrijdag 9 maart 2018 16:33 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice > > Getting ready to take some very straight SS tubing and bend it for > installation. Never bent tubing before but I have a small hand bender and > an idea. I was thinking on using something rigid but something I could > form/bend by hand (heavy wire?) and make a template to then bend the final > piece against. > > Looking for advice form those who have done this. > > Thanks, > Steve > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 12:34:58 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 12:34:58 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice In-Reply-To: <20180309080506.B47F2840@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <20180309173458.QYU08.238418.root@cdptpa-web08> Mostly light arc type bending for now. I assume I will waste some in the process : ) Thanks, Steve ---- Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Steve, It's kind of an art, I've bent a number of odd stainless pieces, If it's just an arc it's not too difficult, if you have a more complex piece you may have to do it more than once. Sometimes it gets to the point where you just have to start over if the piece ends up too mangled. But yes a pattern piece can be helpful. I end up looking for stationary structures that I can use as bending platforms. > > Brian > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice > Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 10:33:03 -0500 > > Getting ready to take some very straight SS tubing and bend it for installation. Never bent tubing before but I have a small hand bender and an idea. I was thinking on using something rigid but something I could form/bend by hand (heavy wire?) and make a template to then bend the final piece against. > > Looking for advice form those who have done this. > > Thanks, > Steve > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 12:46:45 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 09:46:45 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice Message-ID: <20180309094645.B478D9A1@m0117565.ppops.net> Steve, Are you trying to snake a line through some difficult area ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 12:34:58 -0500 Mostly light arc type bending for now. I assume I will waste some in the process : ) Thanks, Steve ---- Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Steve, It's kind of an art, I've bent a number of odd stainless pieces, If it's just an arc it's not too difficult, if you have a more complex piece you may have to do it more than once. Sometimes it gets to the point where you just have to start over if the piece ends up too mangled. But yes a pattern piece can be helpful. I end up looking for stationary structures that I can use as bending platforms. > > Brian > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice > Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 10:33:03 -0500 > > Getting ready to take some very straight SS tubing and bend it for installation. Never bent tubing before but I have a small hand bender and an idea. I was thinking on using something rigid but something I could form/bend by hand (heavy wire?) and make a template to then bend the final piece against. > > Looking for advice form those who have done this. > > Thanks, > Steve > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 13:32:14 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:32:14 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice In-Reply-To: <20180309094645.B478D9A1@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <20180309183214.0U6OF.238931.root@cdptpa-web08> No not really. My interior is still mostly empty/open. I just need to hug the hull interior a bit. Thanks, Steve ---- Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Steve, Are you trying to snake a line through some difficult area ? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice > Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 12:34:58 -0500 > > Mostly light arc type bending for now. I assume I will waste some in the process : ) > Thanks, > Steve > > ---- Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Steve, It's kind of an art, I've bent a number of odd stainless pieces, If it's just an arc it's not too difficult, if you have a more complex piece you may have to do it more than once. Sometimes it gets to the point where you just have to start over if the piece ends up too mangled. But yes a pattern piece can be helpful. I end up looking for stationary structures that I can use as bending platforms. > > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice > > Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 10:33:03 -0500 > > > > Getting ready to take some very straight SS tubing and bend it for installation. Never bent tubing before but I have a small hand bender and an idea. I was thinking on using something rigid but something I could form/bend by hand (heavy wire?) and make a template to then bend the final piece against. > > > > Looking for advice form those who have done this. > > > > Thanks, > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 13:41:49 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 12:41:49 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice In-Reply-To: <20180309153305.LORWV.236750.root@cdptpa-web08> References: <20180309153305.LORWV.236750.root@cdptpa-web08> Message-ID: Process I have been using that seems to work pretty well is to take Romex house wire say AWG 12, separate out a single wire and bend out a template. I use Swagelok compression fittings so I have a Swagelok 1/4" bending tool. You need a bending tool for each size of tubing you use. If you go the Swagelok web site and download the Swagelok Tube Fitter's Manual ( https://sch.swagelok.com/~/media/Distributor%20Media/O-S/SCH/Products/swagelok-tube-fitters-manual-compact/Tube%20Fitters%20Manual%201.ashx?la=en ) which will give you a lot of info not just bending and compression fittings but also good tips on designing the tubing runs. Swagelok tubing benders are not cheap but again they come up on Ebay all the time. Cliff On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 9:33 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Getting ready to take some very straight SS tubing and bend it for > installation. Never bent tubing before but I have a small hand bender and > an idea. I was thinking on using something rigid but something I could > form/bend by hand (heavy wire?) and make a template to then bend the final > piece against. > > Looking for advice form those who have done this. > > Thanks, > Steve > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 13:51:00 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 07:51:00 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice In-Reply-To: <20180309173328.CG6DW.238399.root@cdptpa-web08> References: <20180309173328.CG6DW.238399.root@cdptpa-web08> Message-ID: Steve, 19mm? For the wide curves you could form it around something like a drum or a wooden profile. Someone on this forum had advised me to use wire first, but I don't think there is a need unless it's tight spaces. I paid out the money for a good tube bender specifically for the size tube I was using, & glad I did. However I had a lot of complicated bends on a complex system using solenoids. Alan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 124170 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPad > On 10/03/2018, at 6:33 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > 1/4" (19 MM OD). For now it is the LP O2. Yes the bender is for this size range. > Thanks, > Steve > > ---- emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi Steve, >> >> What is the diameter? HP Lines of 6 or 10 mm? >> Best is to use a bending tool for the specific diameter. >> >> Br, Emile >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> Namens Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles >> Verzonden: vrijdag 9 maart 2018 16:33 >> Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice >> >> Getting ready to take some very straight SS tubing and bend it for >> installation. Never bent tubing before but I have a small hand bender and >> an idea. I was thinking on using something rigid but something I could >> form/bend by hand (heavy wire?) and make a template to then bend the final >> piece against. >> >> Looking for advice form those who have done this. >> >> Thanks, >> Steve >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 14:02:13 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 08:02:13 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice In-Reply-To: <20180309153305.LORWV.236750.root@cdptpa-web08> References: <20180309153305.LORWV.236750.root@cdptpa-web08> Message-ID: Steve, more thoughts; if you are wanting to bend it to the curvature of your hull you won't get a nice job with an expensive small tube bender, you would end up with a series of small bends to form the large curve. If you bend the tube over a large profile the chances are you will put a kink in your expensive tube. On the large curves fitting the subs profile perhaps you could bend it without putting a permanent curve in it, & just push it in to the fitting with spring tension on it. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/03/2018, at 4:33 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Getting ready to take some very straight SS tubing and bend it for installation. Never bent tubing before but I have a small hand bender and an idea. I was thinking on using something rigid but something I could form/bend by hand (heavy wire?) and make a template to then bend the final piece against. > > Looking for advice form those who have done this. > > Thanks, > Steve > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 14:14:28 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 14:14:28 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20180309191428.F14A8.239459.root@cdptpa-web08> Cliff, makes sense. I will look at that manual. I am using Swagelok products but bought an inexpensive Harbor Freight bended for the size range. Thanks, Steve ---- Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Process I have been using that seems to work pretty well is to take Romex > house wire say AWG 12, separate out a single wire and bend out a template. > I use Swagelok compression fittings so I have a Swagelok 1/4" bending > tool. You need a bending tool for each size of tubing you use. If you go > the Swagelok web site and download the Swagelok Tube Fitter's Manual ( > https://sch.swagelok.com/~/media/Distributor%20Media/O-S/SCH/Products/swagelok-tube-fitters-manual-compact/Tube%20Fitters%20Manual%201.ashx?la=en > ) > which will give you a lot of info not just bending and compression > fittings but also good tips on designing the tubing runs. > > Swagelok tubing benders are not cheap but again they come up on Ebay all > the time. > > Cliff > > On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 9:33 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Getting ready to take some very straight SS tubing and bend it for > > installation. Never bent tubing before but I have a small hand bender and > > an idea. I was thinking on using something rigid but something I could > > form/bend by hand (heavy wire?) and make a template to then bend the final > > piece against. > > > > Looking for advice form those who have done this. > > > > Thanks, > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 14:16:25 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 14:16:25 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20180309191625.U0V3H.239482.root@cdptpa-web08> Alan, good ideas. My install is not as complicated as your photo! Thanks, Steve ---- Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Steve, > 19mm? > For the wide curves you could form it around something like a drum > or a wooden profile. Someone on this forum had advised me to use > wire first, but I don't think there is a need unless it's tight spaces. > I paid out the money for a good tube bender specifically for the size > tube I was using, & glad I did. However I had a lot of complicated bends > on a complex system using solenoids. > Alan From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 14:21:11 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 08:21:11 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PLC Choice Message-ID: <43BF7A51-8FC4-4FF4-9D35-F879DA84BF63@yahoo.com> Cliff, Steve, (mainly) just an update on where I am with the plc choice. Even though I had done a plc programming course I was getting totally bewildered with all the I/Os & what sort of information I could extract from my motor controller, BMS etc. Have bought a Vesc which is a small electronic brushless speed controller that can read rpm, amp draw & temperature from my motors. I have over 60 I/Os & most are analogue. I ended up contacting an electrician specialising in industrial automation who is also an electronics geek. He is young enough to be up on all the latest technology. He is coming up with all sorts of ways of reducing the I/Os using raspberry pi etc. So glad to leave it in his hands; will see what he comes up with. Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 15:26:51 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 15:26:51 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fwd: Re: Tube Bending Tips/Advice Message-ID: <20180309202655.8XOOU.1486.root@cdptpa-web17> Correction. The tubing OD is approx. 6mm. I think I'm good. Thanks for the advice. Thanks, Steve -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve McQueen Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Tube Bending Tips/Advice Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 12:33:28 -0500 Size: 1979 URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 15:27:00 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 10:27:00 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reversing an electric motor Message-ID: I have the Minn-Kota 101,s and would like to be able to put the back one in reverse with a flip of a switch and also vary the RPM's and was wondering how people are doing it. I contacted a golf cart parts suppler and I wasn't having much luck with them. My desire is to fabricate a foot pedal like the type on a golf cart that would mount on my foot steering yoke so that would free up my hands for other things like the side thrusters. Any input appreciated. Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 16:00:57 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 10:00:57 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reversing an electric motor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F752BEA-CA2A-4E51-9EB4-F825B427140F@yahoo.com> Rick, Kelly controllers are cheaper than most & have a big range of controllers. The ones I bought have reversing, ( for a bldc motor) but you need to check this out. Some have the option of a joystick input. I think they may even sell compatible foot pedals. If you tell them what you want, they will recommend the right sized controller that can accept the type of input you want. Generally they will recommend a controller twice the rating of your motor ie if you are drawing 50amps continually they will recommend a controller for twice that. Be warned, there are all sorts of programmable parameters & wires coming out that you don't need. You might feel better with something really basic. http://kellycontroller.com/ There is a popular american brand of controller, Curtis. http://curtisinstruments.com/ Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/03/2018, at 9:27 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I have the Minn-Kota 101,s and would like to be able to put the back one in reverse with a flip of a switch and also vary the RPM's and was wondering how people are doing it. I contacted a golf cart parts suppler and I wasn't having much luck with them. > My desire is to fabricate a foot pedal like the type on a golf cart that would mount on my foot steering yoke so that would free up my hands for other things like the side thrusters. > Any input appreciated. > > Rick > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 16:04:35 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 08:04:35 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PLC Choice In-Reply-To: References: <43BF7A51-8FC4-4FF4-9D35-F879DA84BF63@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, I've also been using the VESC brushless motor controller (I use the FOCBOX type, which is sold in Australia) for diver propulsion vehicles and they are fantastic, with all their diagnostics and open source firmware. They also can have a Bluetooth module added so everything can be monitored on a smartphone app (Android). Cheers, Steve On 10 Mar 2018 6:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Cliff, Steve, (mainly) just an update on where I am with the plc choice. Even though I had done a plc programming course I was getting totally bewildered with all the I/Os & what sort of information I could extract from my motor controller, BMS etc. Have bought a Vesc which is a small electronic brushless speed controller that can read rpm, amp draw & temperature from my motors. I have over 60 I/Os & most are analogue. I ended up contacting an electrician specialising in industrial automation who is also an electronics geek. He is young enough to be up on all the latest technology. He is coming up with all sorts of ways of reducing the I/Os using raspberry pi etc. So glad to leave it in his hands; will see what he comes up with. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 16:46:11 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 15:46:11 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reversing an electric motor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use for MK 101's on my boat for each I use the OTS minn Kota motor controller. https://www.ebay.com/itm/MINN-KOTA-TROLLING-MOTOR-CONTROL-BOARD-VECTOR-RIPTIDE-3X-24-36V-2884061/372198311396?epid=1224121068&hash=item56a8bf85e4:g:DuEAAOSwh21aYKzx&vxp=mtr There is a 0-5 VDC potentiometer that comes on the board. at mid point, 2.5 V the motor is off. 5 V full forward and 0 v full back. Nice rugged controller. Non linear response so you get lots of fine control around the dead band at 2.5V. Cliff On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I have the Minn-Kota 101,s and would like to be able to put the back one > in reverse with a flip of a switch and also vary the RPM's and was > wondering how people are doing it. I contacted a golf cart parts suppler > and I wasn't having much luck with them. > My desire is to fabricate a foot pedal like the type on a golf cart that > would mount on my foot steering yoke so that would free up my hands for > other things like the side thrusters. > Any input appreciated. > > Rick > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 19:30:09 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 14:30:09 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] reversing an electric motor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cliff, I didn't realize that the controller you showed had a reverse, I bought just the lower ends along with the control boards when I bought mine with a few other guys on the list so I'll power one up and test it to make sure but that would be great! Thanks Rick On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I use for MK 101's on my boat for each I use the OTS minn Kota motor > controller. https://www.ebay.com/itm/MINN-KOTA-TROLLING-MOTOR-CONTROL- > BOARD-VECTOR-RIPTIDE-3X-24-36V-2884061/372198311396?epid=1224121068&hash= > item56a8bf85e4:g:DuEAAOSwh21aYKzx&vxp=mtr > > There is a 0-5 VDC potentiometer that comes on the board. at mid point, > 2.5 V the motor is off. 5 > > V full forward and 0 v full back. Nice rugged controller. Non linear > response so you get lots of fine control around the dead band at 2.5V. > > Cliff > > On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I have the Minn-Kota 101,s and would like to be able to put the back one >> in reverse with a flip of a switch and also vary the RPM's and was >> wondering how people are doing it. I contacted a golf cart parts suppler >> and I wasn't having much luck with them. >> My desire is to fabricate a foot pedal like the type on a golf cart that >> would mount on my foot steering yoke so that would free up my hands for >> other things like the side thrusters. >> Any input appreciated. >> >> Rick >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 9 21:37:04 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 15:37:04 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PLC Choice In-Reply-To: References: <43BF7A51-8FC4-4FF4-9D35-F879DA84BF63@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6F1FFD82-4C54-4CD4-93CC-0901A6A6015E@yahoo.com> Steve, thanks thats good to hear. I bought my Vesc from Maytech in China. They sell them along with a remote controller for skateboard use. They look like they have done a good job, & if they haven't you'll hear about it from the Skateboarding community. My Vesc cost about $100- & they are about to release a Vesc with heat sink in an aluminium housing. The Vesc Maytech sent me needed the firmware updating, & then I had to order an ST link from them to update the firmware. They sent the wrong wires with it. Apart from that, I have been buying bldc motors from them that are good quality. Will let you know when they release this & what the price is if you like. I was looking at the focbox, it looks like they have done a good job with it. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 10/03/2018, at 10:04 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > I've also been using the VESC brushless motor controller (I use the FOCBOX type, which is sold in Australia) for diver propulsion vehicles and they are fantastic, with all their diagnostics and open source firmware. They also can have a Bluetooth module added so everything can be monitored on a smartphone app (Android). > > Cheers, > Steve > > On 10 Mar 2018 6:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > Cliff, Steve, (mainly) > just an update on where I am with the plc choice. > Even though I had done a plc programming course I was getting totally > bewildered with all the I/Os & what sort of information I could extract > from my motor controller, BMS etc. Have bought a Vesc which is a small electronic > brushless speed controller that can read rpm, amp draw & temperature from my > motors. I have over 60 I/Os & most are analogue. > I ended up contacting an electrician specialising in industrial automation > who is also an electronics geek. He is young enough to be up on all the latest > technology. He is coming up with all sorts of ways of reducing the I/Os using > raspberry pi etc. > So glad to leave it in his hands; will see what he comes up with. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 10 18:48:05 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 10:48:05 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PLC Choice In-Reply-To: <6F1FFD82-4C54-4CD4-93CC-0901A6A6015E@yahoo.com> References: <43BF7A51-8FC4-4FF4-9D35-F879DA84BF63@yahoo.com> <6F1FFD82-4C54-4CD4-93CC-0901A6A6015E@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, Yes I looked at the Maytech VESC builds (and have also ordered a BLDC motor sample from them), but the e-skaters do have a few negative things to say about it. I've been testing a "E-SK8" version I got from Hobbyking and it's been completely fine, but the FOCBox has all round excellent reviews and looks the part - I'd rather pay a bit more for something so critical (and I want to be able to use FOC control too). Since I'll be on-selling, hopefully I can get much better than list pricing - I'll let you know if I'm doing a bulk order. Cheers, Steve On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Steve, > thanks thats good to hear. > I bought my Vesc from Maytech in China. They sell them along with a remote > controller for skateboard use. They look like they have done a good job, & > if they haven't you'll hear about it from the Skateboarding community. > My Vesc cost about $100- & they are about to release a Vesc with heat sink > in an aluminium housing. > The Vesc Maytech sent me needed the firmware updating, & then I had to > order > an ST link from them to update the firmware. They sent the wrong wires > with it. > Apart from that, I have been buying bldc motors from them that are good > quality. > Will let you know when they release this & what the price is if you like. > I was looking at the focbox, it looks like they have done a good job with > it. > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 10/03/2018, at 10:04 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > I've also been using the VESC brushless motor controller (I use the FOCBOX > type, which is sold in Australia) for diver propulsion vehicles and they > are fantastic, with all their diagnostics and open source firmware. They > also can have a Bluetooth module added so everything can be monitored on a > smartphone app (Android). > > Cheers, > Steve > > On 10 Mar 2018 6:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, Steve, (mainly) > just an update on where I am with the plc choice. > Even though I had done a plc programming course I was getting totally > bewildered with all the I/Os & what sort of information I could extract > from my motor controller, BMS etc. Have bought a Vesc which is a small > electronic > brushless speed controller that can read rpm, amp draw & temperature from > my > motors. I have over 60 I/Os & most are analogue. > I ended up contacting an electrician specialising in industrial automation > who is also an electronics geek. He is young enough to be up on all the > latest > technology. He is coming up with all sorts of ways of reducing the I/Os > using > raspberry pi etc. > So glad to leave it in his hands; will see what he comes up with. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 10 23:11:52 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 20:11:52 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info Message-ID: Hi all, I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that I would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have Frank Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find any. Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group all the time. Best fishes, Shanee ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ <>< <>< ) <*III>< <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< <>< <>< <>< ) ) 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 10 23:32:02 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 17:32:02 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PLC Choice In-Reply-To: References: <43BF7A51-8FC4-4FF4-9D35-F879DA84BF63@yahoo.com> <6F1FFD82-4C54-4CD4-93CC-0901A6A6015E@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ECAF63E-AADE-4603-B9F5-B3B341238DF5@yahoo.com> Thanks Steve, any information on them is helpful. Perhaps Maytech are putting out the Vesc with heatsink as a result of problems! Not sure if this instigram link works but it is a preview of the Vesc... https://instagram.com/p/Bd2GOBLA1rU/ I bought 6 x 6374 sealed sensored outrunner motors off Maytech that I had them wind to 60kv. They have a temperature sensor on the hall sensor board that the Vesc reads, which will be handy for testing. Am running these in oil. They are using these motors on electric surfboards. The wiring isn't as stiff as the "Saite" motors I tried. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 11/03/2018, at 12:48 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > Yes I looked at the Maytech VESC builds (and have also ordered a BLDC motor sample from them), but the e-skaters do have a few negative things to say about it. I've been testing a "E-SK8" version I got from Hobbyking and it's been completely fine, but the FOCBox has all round excellent reviews and looks the part - I'd rather pay a bit more for something so critical (and I want to be able to use FOC control too). Since I'll be on-selling, hopefully I can get much better than list pricing - I'll let you know if I'm doing a bulk order. > > Cheers, > Steve > > > >> On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Steve, >> thanks thats good to hear. >> I bought my Vesc from Maytech in China. They sell them along with a remote >> controller for skateboard use. They look like they have done a good job, & >> if they haven't you'll hear about it from the Skateboarding community. >> My Vesc cost about $100- & they are about to release a Vesc with heat sink >> in an aluminium housing. >> The Vesc Maytech sent me needed the firmware updating, & then I had to order >> an ST link from them to update the firmware. They sent the wrong wires with it. >> Apart from that, I have been buying bldc motors from them that are good quality. >> Will let you know when they release this & what the price is if you like. >> I was looking at the focbox, it looks like they have done a good job with it. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 10/03/2018, at 10:04 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> I've also been using the VESC brushless motor controller (I use the FOCBOX type, which is sold in Australia) for diver propulsion vehicles and they are fantastic, with all their diagnostics and open source firmware. They also can have a Bluetooth module added so everything can be monitored on a smartphone app (Android). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve >>> >>> On 10 Mar 2018 6:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> Cliff, Steve, (mainly) >>> just an update on where I am with the plc choice. >>> Even though I had done a plc programming course I was getting totally >>> bewildered with all the I/Os & what sort of information I could extract >>> from my motor controller, BMS etc. Have bought a Vesc which is a small electronic >>> brushless speed controller that can read rpm, amp draw & temperature from my >>> motors. I have over 60 I/Os & most are analogue. >>> I ended up contacting an electrician specialising in industrial automation >>> who is also an electronics geek. He is young enough to be up on all the latest >>> technology. He is coming up with all sorts of ways of reducing the I/Os using >>> raspberry pi etc. >>> So glad to leave it in his hands; will see what he comes up with. >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 00:26:06 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 00:26:06 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Welcome to PSUBS Shanee! My name is Douglas and I'm pretty new as well. Love your fish emoji and quote, by the way. Would love to see photos of your sub. Busby is probably the single best resource out there (that I know of)... you're wise to have started there. I'll let the smarter members chime in on other suggestions. If you'd like to email me privately, my email is spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Hope you stick around, we're a good group! ~ Doug On 3/10/18, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi all, > > I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that I > would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have Frank > Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential > reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and > carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! > > Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find > any. > > Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody > out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie > questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group > all the time. > > Best fishes, > Shanee > > ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ > <>< <>< ) <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ) ) > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 03:43:49 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 20:43:49 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92C8377C-BED4-4B37-8481-E4583858D8A4@yahoo.com> Hi Shanee, welcome along. I don't imagine there is a quick fix for strengthening the hull. You would have to have either a thicker hull & reinforcing rings or fit new internal or external reinforcing rings. And then there is the reinforcement of the conning tower, & penetrations. All that stuff would be quite difficult to do retrospectively. Would take quite a bit of analysis first. You can get down to scuba diving depths by setting the sub up as an ambient sub. This involves some sort of system to pressurise the inside of the hull to the same pressure as the water pressure at the depth you are at. One method of achieving that is to attach modified scuba second stage regulators to through hulls. There are short comings with this as you have a different style of life support than a 1atm sub in that you have air flowing in at 20 liters per minute per person rather than O2 & a scrubber. You are breathing compressed air & are subject to the same dive times & stops as a scuba diver. You need a lot of air to equalise the hull, & everything inside the hull comes under pressure. Particularly vulnerable to this pressure are the large electrolytic capacitors found in motor controllers. There are also issues with corrosion as compressed air is forced into any electronic enclosures & may have a high level of humidity. Quite happy to answer any further questions. It would be great to see your sub if you have any pictures or have anything up on the psub projects page. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 11/03/2018, at 5:11 PM, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that I would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have Frank Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! > > Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find any. > > Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group all the time. > > Best fishes, > Shanee > > ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ > <>< <>< ) <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ) ) > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 07:14:52 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 11:14:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1214845715.611510.1520766892519@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Shanee,?Can you post some pictures of your new sub. ?I for one love pictures of unknown subs and how they are built, as do most of us. ?Hank On Saturday, March 10, 2018, 9:12:11 PM MST, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that I would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have Frank Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find any.? Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group all the time.? Best fishes,Shanee? ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 10:12:58 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 14:12:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose References: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 10:52:03 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 10:52:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose In-Reply-To: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> HP SCUBA regulator orifice is 7/16-20 UNF 2B thread. There are Swagelok and other fittings which will work, but watch your wrench clearances when using multiple adjacent ports. On that note, LP SCUBA ports are either 3/8-24 UNF - 2B (most common) or 1/2-20 UNF - 2B (less common). Be aware that while most HP SCUBA SPG hoses have a pinhole bore in order to reduce the consequences of a HP hose failure, some SCUBA regulators incorporate the pinhole restriction into the regulator itself, which will limit the available flow rate at high pressure. Of course, if your drawing gas off at high pressure anyway, why go through the reg? Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 07:12, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? > > Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 10:59:02 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 10:59:02 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose In-Reply-To: <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> References: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Just for the sake of completeness, the SCUBA hose fittings that mate to the regulator would obviously be the same thread in class 2A (external). SCUBA second stage regulator hose connections are 9/16-18 UNF, class 2B on the hose end and 2A on the regulator fitting. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 07:52, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > HP SCUBA regulator orifice is 7/16-20 UNF 2B thread. There are Swagelok and other fittings which will work, but watch your wrench clearances when using multiple adjacent ports. On that note, LP SCUBA ports are either 3/8-24 UNF - 2B (most common) or 1/2-20 UNF - 2B (less common). Be aware that while most HP SCUBA SPG hoses have a pinhole bore in order to reduce the consequences of a HP hose failure, some SCUBA regulators incorporate the pinhole restriction into the regulator itself, which will limit the available flow rate at high pressure. Of course, if your drawing gas off at high pressure anyway, why go through the reg? > > Sean > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Mar 11, 2018, 07:12, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? >> >> Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 13:15:49 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 17:15:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose In-Reply-To: <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> References: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <1730615537.685398.1520788549378@mail.yahoo.com> Is there some other way to tap HP off a SCUBA tank other than first stage regulator?? I was thinking of running the HP hose to a manifold that would feed the ballast tanks. From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose HP SCUBA regulator orifice is 7/16-20 UNF 2B thread. There are Swagelok and other fittings which will work, but watch your wrench clearances when using multiple adjacent ports. On that note, LP SCUBA ports are either 3/8-24 UNF - 2B (most common) or 1/2-20 UNF - 2B (less common). Be aware that while most HP SCUBA SPG hoses have a pinhole bore in order to reduce the consequences of a HP hose failure, some SCUBA regulators incorporate the pinhole restriction into the regulator itself, which will limit the available flow rate at high pressure. Of course, if your drawing gas off at high pressure anyway, why go through the reg? Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 07:12, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 13:26:03 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 13:26:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose In-Reply-To: <1730615537.685398.1520788549378@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> <1730615537.685398.1520788549378@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well, SCUBA cylinders are usually supplied with valves with either CGA-850 or DIN 477 orifices, and you can find connectors / adapters for both to adapt directly to either gender NPT, and if you don't need the cylinder valve, in North America the cylinder neck threads are likely 3/4-14 NPS, which you can also tie into directly if that suits your application. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 10:15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Is there some other way to tap HP off a SCUBA tank other than first stage regulator? I was thinking of running the HP hose to a manifold that would feed the ballast tanks. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 10:54 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose > > HP SCUBA regulator orifice is 7/16-20 UNF 2B thread. There are Swagelok and other fittings which will work, but watch your wrench clearances when using multiple adjacent ports. On that note, LP SCUBA ports are either 3/8-24 UNF - 2B (most common) or 1/2-20 UNF - 2B (less common). Be aware that while most HP SCUBA SPG hoses have a pinhole bore in order to reduce the consequences of a HP hose failure, some SCUBA regulators incorporate the pinhole restriction into the regulator itself, which will limit the available flow rate at high pressure. Of course, if your drawing gas off at high pressure anyway, why go through the reg? > > Sean > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Mar 11, 2018, 07:12, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> > > Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 13:36:17 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 13:36:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose In-Reply-To: References: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> <1730615537.685398.1520788549378@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just to add to that - SCUBA cylinder valves typically incorporate burst disc safety devices into a port in the valve body. If you're contemplating removing a cylinder valve to plumb to a cylinder directly, you will need to add a safety pressure relief mechanism elsewhere. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 10:26, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Well, SCUBA cylinders are usually supplied with valves with either CGA-850 or DIN 477 orifices, and you can find connectors / adapters for both to adapt directly to either gender NPT, and if you don't need the cylinder valve, in North America the cylinder neck threads are likely 3/4-14 NPS, which you can also tie into directly if that suits your application. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Mar 11, 2018, 10:15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Is there some other way to tap HP off a SCUBA tank other than first stage regulator? I was thinking of running the HP hose to a manifold that would feed the ballast tanks. >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 10:54 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose >> >> HP SCUBA regulator orifice is 7/16-20 UNF 2B thread. There are Swagelok and other fittings which will work, but watch your wrench clearances when using multiple adjacent ports. On that note, LP SCUBA ports are either 3/8-24 UNF - 2B (most common) or 1/2-20 UNF - 2B (less common). Be aware that while most HP SCUBA SPG hoses have a pinhole bore in order to reduce the consequences of a HP hose failure, some SCUBA regulators incorporate the pinhole restriction into the regulator itself, which will limit the available flow rate at high pressure. Of course, if your drawing gas off at high pressure anyway, why go through the reg? >> >> Sean >> >> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Mar 11, 2018, 07:12, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> >> >> Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? >> >> Jon >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 13:46:04 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 17:46:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose In-Reply-To: References: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> <1730615537.685398.1520788549378@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1753025067.678422.1520790364530@mail.yahoo.com> I probably won't be changing the valve but a good point about the burst disk.? I don't recall what George used in the K600 to tap off the air cylinder so just thinking on my own here.? I like the idea of a flexible hose going to a manifold rather than a rigid pipe system that requires everything line up perfectly to the tank. From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose Just to add to that - SCUBA cylinder valves typically incorporate burst disc safety devices into a port in the valve body. If you're contemplating removing a cylinder valve to plumb to a cylinder directly, you will need to add a safety pressure relief mechanism elsewhere. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 10:26, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Well, SCUBA cylinders are usually supplied with valves with either CGA-850 or DIN 477 orifices, and you can find connectors / adapters for both to adapt directly to either gender NPT, and if you don't need the cylinder valve, in North America the cylinder neck threads are likely 3/4-14 NPS, which you can also tie into directly if that suits your application. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 10:15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Is there some other way to tap HP off a SCUBA tank other than first stage regulator?? I was thinking of running the HP hose to a manifold that would feed the ballast tanks. From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose HP SCUBA regulator orifice is 7/16-20 UNF 2B thread. There are Swagelok and other fittings which will work, but watch your wrench clearances when using multiple adjacent ports. On that note, LP SCUBA ports are either 3/8-24 UNF - 2B (most common) or 1/2-20 UNF - 2B (less common). Be aware that while most HP SCUBA SPG hoses have a pinhole bore in order to reduce the consequences of a HP hose failure, some SCUBA regulators incorporate the pinhole restriction into the regulator itself, which will limit the available flow rate at high pressure. Of course, if your drawing gas off at high pressure anyway, why go through the reg? Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 07:12, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 15:35:50 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 20:35:50 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose In-Reply-To: <1730615537.685398.1520788549378@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> <1730615537.685398.1520788549378@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <05f801d3b970$29a7e0e0$7cf7a2a0$@nl> The HP port has usually a restriction . A safety feature for the case of a Hp hose burst. Could maybe enlarged. Br, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zondag 11 maart 2018 18:16 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose Is there some other way to tap HP off a SCUBA tank other than first stage regulator? I was thinking of running the HP hose to a manifold that would feed the ballast tanks. _____ From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose HP SCUBA regulator orifice is 7/16-20 UNF 2B thread. There are Swagelok and other fittings which will work, but watch your wrench clearances when using multiple adjacent ports. On that note, LP SCUBA ports are either 3/8-24 UNF - 2B (most common) or 1/2-20 UNF - 2B (less common). Be aware that while most HP SCUBA SPG hoses have a pinhole bore in order to reduce the consequences of a HP hose failure, some SCUBA regulators incorporate the pinhole restriction into the regulator itself, which will limit the available flow rate at high pressure. Of course, if your drawing gas off at high pressure anyway, why go through the reg? Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 07:12, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 19:37:23 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ludwig Johanning via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 18:37:23 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure/depth sensor for ROV project Message-ID: What are you guys using for a pressure/depth sensors on your subs? I'm looking for a pressure/depth sensor good for at least 100 meters for a ROV project at my university. I have found a sensor which is good for 100 meters on BlueRobotics but would like to see what you guys are using first. Thanks, Ludwig -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 20:36:50 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:36:50 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PLC Choice In-Reply-To: <4ECAF63E-AADE-4603-B9F5-B3B341238DF5@yahoo.com> References: <43BF7A51-8FC4-4FF4-9D35-F879DA84BF63@yahoo.com> <6F1FFD82-4C54-4CD4-93CC-0901A6A6015E@yahoo.com> <4ECAF63E-AADE-4603-B9F5-B3B341238DF5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, Hah! That's the same motor that I ordered - should have checked with you first (1 @ 60Kv and another at 70Kv). Yes I'm a big fan of the temperature sensing, and the sensors are nice for FOC control (quieter at slow speeds). Cheers, Steve On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Steve, > any information on them is helpful. > Perhaps Maytech are putting out the Vesc with heatsink as a result of > problems! > Not sure if this instigram link works but it is a preview of the Vesc... > https://instagram.com/p/Bd2GOBLA1rU/ > I bought 6 x 6374 sealed sensored outrunner motors off Maytech that I had > them wind to 60kv. > They have a temperature sensor on the hall sensor board that the Vesc > reads, which > will be handy for testing. Am running these in oil. > They are using these motors on electric surfboards. The wiring isn't as > stiff as the "Saite" > motors I tried. > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 11/03/2018, at 12:48 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > Yes I looked at the Maytech VESC builds (and have also ordered a BLDC > motor sample from them), but the e-skaters do have a few negative things to > say about it. I've been testing a "E-SK8" version I got from Hobbyking and > it's been completely fine, but the FOCBox has all round excellent reviews > and looks the part - I'd rather pay a bit more for something so critical > (and I want to be able to use FOC control too). Since I'll be on-selling, > hopefully I can get much better than list pricing - I'll let you know if > I'm doing a bulk order. > > Cheers, > Steve > > > > On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Steve, >> thanks thats good to hear. >> I bought my Vesc from Maytech in China. They sell them along with a remote >> controller for skateboard use. They look like they have done a good job, & >> if they haven't you'll hear about it from the Skateboarding community. >> My Vesc cost about $100- & they are about to release a Vesc with heat sink >> in an aluminium housing. >> The Vesc Maytech sent me needed the firmware updating, & then I had to >> order >> an ST link from them to update the firmware. They sent the wrong wires >> with it. >> Apart from that, I have been buying bldc motors from them that are good >> quality. >> Will let you know when they release this & what the price is if you like. >> I was looking at the focbox, it looks like they have done a good job with >> it. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 10/03/2018, at 10:04 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Alan, >> I've also been using the VESC brushless motor controller (I use the >> FOCBOX type, which is sold in Australia) for diver propulsion vehicles and >> they are fantastic, with all their diagnostics and open source firmware. >> They also can have a Bluetooth module added so everything can be monitored >> on a smartphone app (Android). >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> On 10 Mar 2018 6:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Cliff, Steve, (mainly) >> just an update on where I am with the plc choice. >> Even though I had done a plc programming course I was getting totally >> bewildered with all the I/Os & what sort of information I could extract >> from my motor controller, BMS etc. Have bought a Vesc which is a small >> electronic >> brushless speed controller that can read rpm, amp draw & temperature from >> my >> motors. I have over 60 I/Os & most are analogue. >> I ended up contacting an electrician specialising in industrial automation >> who is also an electronics geek. He is young enough to be up on all the >> latest >> technology. He is coming up with all sorts of ways of reducing the I/Os >> using >> raspberry pi etc. >> So glad to leave it in his hands; will see what he comes up with. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 21:48:10 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 14:48:10 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PLC Choice In-Reply-To: References: <43BF7A51-8FC4-4FF4-9D35-F879DA84BF63@yahoo.com> <6F1FFD82-4C54-4CD4-93CC-0901A6A6015E@yahoo.com> <4ECAF63E-AADE-4603-B9F5-B3B341238DF5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Steve, some information in case it helps. you might have heard some of this from me before, but I have been oil filling the thrusters. I started with the Saite motors but a few things went wrong that were possibly my fault. Firstly I didn't have an oil compensator to create an over-pressure & the oil was moving up the wiring tube when I started the motor. Possibly the motor design was creating force that was doing this, or centrifigal force inside the motor was throwing the oil out. The oil I was using was degrading the main wire insulations & I suspect dissolved the glue on the sensor board. They glue the sensor board at Saite with a glue that can be melted so you can adjust the timing of the motor. I suspect the timing went out & it overheated, or it overheated first & caused the sensor board to come loose. It stopped running after 30 hrs. I had replaced the propellor shaft with a 316 shaft that I turned down so that I had 12mm to fit the prop & 8mm through the motor. I didn't pay enough attention to getting the press fit right. The whole bell is attached at that one press fit point. I think I should have heated up the bell a bit & frozen the shaft & pressed it in a press, however would need to be weary of splitting the aluminium. The result of the not so tight fit was the bell moving off centre in time, this seemed ok when running at speed but would scrape at slow speeds. I had looked around for a suitable motor with a can bearings like the Turnigy 6374 but not sure if this is necessary. Tested it out with a 2hp yamaha prop & was getting as good as or better thrust than the average thruster that I had information on was achieving. Have a number of props to try out. Next step is to build another thruster housing for the Maytech motor, make a new test jig & order a plc to control the tests. One reservation about the Maytech motor is I may have to drill angled holes in the end of the bell to cause an oil flow across the windings, or add a small impeller to do the same. Are you oil filling? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 12/03/2018, at 1:36 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > Hah! That's the same motor that I ordered - should have checked with you first (1 @ 60Kv and another at 70Kv). > > Yes I'm a big fan of the temperature sensing, and the sensors are nice for FOC control (quieter at slow speeds). > > Cheers, > Steve > >> On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Thanks Steve, >> any information on them is helpful. >> Perhaps Maytech are putting out the Vesc with heatsink as a result of problems! >> Not sure if this instigram link works but it is a preview of the Vesc... >> https://instagram.com/p/Bd2GOBLA1rU/ >> I bought 6 x 6374 sealed sensored outrunner motors off Maytech that I had them wind to 60kv. >> They have a temperature sensor on the hall sensor board that the Vesc reads, which >> will be handy for testing. Am running these in oil. >> They are using these motors on electric surfboards. The wiring isn't as stiff as the "Saite" >> motors I tried. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 11/03/2018, at 12:48 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> Yes I looked at the Maytech VESC builds (and have also ordered a BLDC motor sample from them), but the e-skaters do have a few negative things to say about it. I've been testing a "E-SK8" version I got from Hobbyking and it's been completely fine, but the FOCBox has all round excellent reviews and looks the part - I'd rather pay a bit more for something so critical (and I want to be able to use FOC control too). Since I'll be on-selling, hopefully I can get much better than list pricing - I'll let you know if I'm doing a bulk order. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Steve, >>>> thanks thats good to hear. >>>> I bought my Vesc from Maytech in China. They sell them along with a remote >>>> controller for skateboard use. They look like they have done a good job, & >>>> if they haven't you'll hear about it from the Skateboarding community. >>>> My Vesc cost about $100- & they are about to release a Vesc with heat sink >>>> in an aluminium housing. >>>> The Vesc Maytech sent me needed the firmware updating, & then I had to order >>>> an ST link from them to update the firmware. They sent the wrong wires with it. >>>> Apart from that, I have been buying bldc motors from them that are good quality. >>>> Will let you know when they release this & what the price is if you like. >>>> I was looking at the focbox, it looks like they have done a good job with it. >>>> Cheers Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On 10/03/2018, at 10:04 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Alan, >>>>> I've also been using the VESC brushless motor controller (I use the FOCBOX type, which is sold in Australia) for diver propulsion vehicles and they are fantastic, with all their diagnostics and open source firmware. They also can have a Bluetooth module added so everything can be monitored on a smartphone app (Android). >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Steve >>>>> >>>>> On 10 Mar 2018 6:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> Cliff, Steve, (mainly) >>>>> just an update on where I am with the plc choice. >>>>> Even though I had done a plc programming course I was getting totally >>>>> bewildered with all the I/Os & what sort of information I could extract >>>>> from my motor controller, BMS etc. Have bought a Vesc which is a small electronic >>>>> brushless speed controller that can read rpm, amp draw & temperature from my >>>>> motors. I have over 60 I/Os & most are analogue. >>>>> I ended up contacting an electrician specialising in industrial automation >>>>> who is also an electronics geek. He is young enough to be up on all the latest >>>>> technology. He is coming up with all sorts of ways of reducing the I/Os using >>>>> raspberry pi etc. >>>>> So glad to leave it in his hands; will see what he comes up with. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 22:11:33 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 13:11:33 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PLC Choice In-Reply-To: References: <43BF7A51-8FC4-4FF4-9D35-F879DA84BF63@yahoo.com> <6F1FFD82-4C54-4CD4-93CC-0901A6A6015E@yahoo.com> <4ECAF63E-AADE-4603-B9F5-B3B341238DF5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, Thanks for all that. I'm not oil filling, so that helps with most things, although getting rid of heat is a headache. The (ambient) housing of the DPV is all plastic, so I'm going to have to implement a water cooling system, at least for the prototype. The motor isn't designed for water cooling, so it will be a bit more annoying. Might look at a proper water cooled motor next. Since I'm retrofitting the motor & controller to the DPV, it's rather nice that I don't have to worry about other variables like modifying the motor. The prop/shaft/seal assembly terminates on the inside with a large gear, so I "just" had to make an adaptor bracket for the motor and a 3D printed shaft coupler. I imagine you're across it, but are you checking on efficiency in your prop experiments? (as in, mechanical power out, over electrical power in). This can be calculated indirectly and it's really interesting to see how badly a motor can be performing despite a high input power. I thought I was doing well with an undersized 70Kv motor apparently rated for 2.8kW until I realised it was only operating at 30% efficiency (80-90% should be quite achieveable). The attached spreadsheet (warts and all) that I made may be of interest. Not sure how it translates to oil-filled - probably ok if you use the figures from before it's filled with oil. Cheers, Steve On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Steve, > some information in case it helps. > you might have heard some of this from me before, but I have been oil > filling > the thrusters. I started with the Saite motors but a few things went wrong > that were possibly my fault. > Firstly I didn't have an oil compensator to create an over-pressure & > the > oil was moving up the wiring tube when I started the motor. Possibly the > motor design was creating force that was doing this, or centrifigal > force inside the motor was throwing the oil out. > The oil I was using was degrading the main wire insulations & I suspect > dissolved the glue on the sensor board. They glue the sensor board at Saite > with a glue that can be melted so you can adjust the timing of the motor. > I suspect the timing went out & it overheated, or it overheated first & > caused the sensor board to come loose. It stopped running after > 30 hrs. > I had replaced the propellor shaft with a 316 shaft that I turned down > so that I had > 12mm to fit the prop & 8mm through the motor. I didn't pay enough attention > to getting the press fit right. The whole bell is attached at that one > press fit > point. I think I should have heated up the bell a bit & frozen the shaft & > pressed it in a press, however would need to be weary of splitting the > aluminium. > The result of the not so tight fit was the bell moving off centre in time, > this seemed > ok when running at speed but would scrape at slow speeds. I had looked > around > for a suitable motor with a can bearings like the Turnigy 6374 but not > sure if > this is necessary. > Tested it out with a 2hp yamaha prop & was getting as good as or better > thrust > than the average thruster that I had information on was achieving. Have a > number > of props to try out. > Next step is to build another thruster housing for the Maytech motor, > make a new > test jig & order a plc to control the tests. > One reservation about the Maytech motor is I may have to drill angled > holes > in the end of the bell to cause an oil flow across the windings, or add a > small > impeller to do the same. > Are you oil filling? > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 12/03/2018, at 1:36 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > Hah! That's the same motor that I ordered - should have checked with you > first (1 @ 60Kv and another at 70Kv). > > Yes I'm a big fan of the temperature sensing, and the sensors are nice for > FOC control (quieter at slow speeds). > > Cheers, > Steve > > On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Thanks Steve, >> any information on them is helpful. >> Perhaps Maytech are putting out the Vesc with heatsink as a result of >> problems! >> Not sure if this instigram link works but it is a preview of the Vesc... >> https://instagram.com/p/Bd2GOBLA1rU/ >> I bought 6 x 6374 sealed sensored outrunner motors off Maytech that I had >> them wind to 60kv. >> They have a temperature sensor on the hall sensor board that the Vesc >> reads, which >> will be handy for testing. Am running these in oil. >> They are using these motors on electric surfboards. The wiring isn't as >> stiff as the "Saite" >> motors I tried. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 11/03/2018, at 12:48 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Alan, >> Yes I looked at the Maytech VESC builds (and have also ordered a BLDC >> motor sample from them), but the e-skaters do have a few negative things to >> say about it. I've been testing a "E-SK8" version I got from Hobbyking and >> it's been completely fine, but the FOCBox has all round excellent reviews >> and looks the part - I'd rather pay a bit more for something so critical >> (and I want to be able to use FOC control too). Since I'll be on-selling, >> hopefully I can get much better than list pricing - I'll let you know if >> I'm doing a bulk order. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Steve, >>> thanks thats good to hear. >>> I bought my Vesc from Maytech in China. They sell them along with a >>> remote >>> controller for skateboard use. They look like they have done a good job, >>> & >>> if they haven't you'll hear about it from the Skateboarding community. >>> My Vesc cost about $100- & they are about to release a Vesc with heat >>> sink >>> in an aluminium housing. >>> The Vesc Maytech sent me needed the firmware updating, & then I had to >>> order >>> an ST link from them to update the firmware. They sent the wrong wires >>> with it. >>> Apart from that, I have been buying bldc motors from them that are good >>> quality. >>> Will let you know when they release this & what the price is if you like. >>> I was looking at the focbox, it looks like they have done a good job >>> with it. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 10/03/2018, at 10:04 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> I've also been using the VESC brushless motor controller (I use the >>> FOCBOX type, which is sold in Australia) for diver propulsion vehicles and >>> they are fantastic, with all their diagnostics and open source firmware. >>> They also can have a Bluetooth module added so everything can be monitored >>> on a smartphone app (Android). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve >>> >>> On 10 Mar 2018 6:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Cliff, Steve, (mainly) >>> just an update on where I am with the plc choice. >>> Even though I had done a plc programming course I was getting totally >>> bewildered with all the I/Os & what sort of information I could extract >>> from my motor controller, BMS etc. Have bought a Vesc which is a small >>> electronic >>> brushless speed controller that can read rpm, amp draw & temperature >>> from my >>> motors. I have over 60 I/Os & most are analogue. >>> I ended up contacting an electrician specialising in industrial >>> automation >>> who is also an electronics geek. He is young enough to be up on all the >>> latest >>> technology. He is coming up with all sorts of ways of reducing the I/Os >>> using >>> raspberry pi etc. >>> So glad to leave it in his hands; will see what he comes up with. >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Motor Efficiency Calculator.xlsx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.sheet Size: 23961 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 11 23:36:21 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 23:36:21 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure/depth sensor for ROV project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not sure what your budget is, but I almost exclusively use Honeywell FP2000 series sensors. Price will depend on options. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 16:37, Ludwig Johanning via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > What are you guys using for a pressure/depth sensors on your subs? > > I'm looking for a pressure/depth sensor good for at least 100 meters for a ROV project at my university. I have found a sensor which is good for 100 meters on BlueRobotics but would like to see what you guys are using first. > > Thanks, > Ludwig -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 01:07:26 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 18:07:26 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PLC Choice In-Reply-To: References: <43BF7A51-8FC4-4FF4-9D35-F879DA84BF63@yahoo.com> <6F1FFD82-4C54-4CD4-93CC-0901A6A6015E@yahoo.com> <4ECAF63E-AADE-4603-B9F5-B3B341238DF5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9472136E-5578-4BDA-8D6D-51B018E5FD96@yahoo.com> Thanks Steve, that's a great spread sheet. Hopefully I can come up with something as professional as that with my next set up. My results ( which I have temporarily lost) were just Volts in, amps & thrust. This gave me thrust per Watt. They were encouraging enough to keep me going down this track. I ran the Saite motor off 48V from a rectifier that had a limit of 40 amps. I only ran the Saite motor with the 2hp Yamaha prop. Cliff posted a good spread sheet on his tests with different props on the Minn Kotta 101. He was getting quite a varied result in efficiency & thrust. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 12/03/2018, at 3:11 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > Thanks for all that. I'm not oil filling, so that helps with most things, although getting rid of heat is a headache. The (ambient) housing of the DPV is all plastic, so I'm going to have to implement a water cooling system, at least for the prototype. The motor isn't designed for water cooling, so it will be a bit more annoying. Might look at a proper water cooled motor next. > > Since I'm retrofitting the motor & controller to the DPV, it's rather nice that I don't have to worry about other variables like modifying the motor. The prop/shaft/seal assembly terminates on the inside with a large gear, so I "just" had to make an adaptor bracket for the motor and a 3D printed shaft coupler. > > I imagine you're across it, but are you checking on efficiency in your prop experiments? (as in, mechanical power out, over electrical power in). This can be calculated indirectly and it's really interesting to see how badly a motor can be performing despite a high input power. I thought I was doing well with an undersized 70Kv motor apparently rated for 2.8kW until I realised it was only operating at 30% efficiency (80-90% should be quite achieveable). The attached spreadsheet (warts and all) that I made may be of interest. Not sure how it translates to oil-filled - probably ok if you use the figures from before it's filled with oil. > > Cheers, > Steve > >> On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Steve, >> some information in case it helps. >> you might have heard some of this from me before, but I have been oil filling >> the thrusters. I started with the Saite motors but a few things went wrong >> that were possibly my fault. >> Firstly I didn't have an oil compensator to create an over-pressure & the >> oil was moving up the wiring tube when I started the motor. Possibly the >> motor design was creating force that was doing this, or centrifigal >> force inside the motor was throwing the oil out. >> The oil I was using was degrading the main wire insulations & I suspect >> dissolved the glue on the sensor board. They glue the sensor board at Saite >> with a glue that can be melted so you can adjust the timing of the motor. >> I suspect the timing went out & it overheated, or it overheated first & >> caused the sensor board to come loose. It stopped running after >> 30 hrs. >> I had replaced the propellor shaft with a 316 shaft that I turned down so that I had >> 12mm to fit the prop & 8mm through the motor. I didn't pay enough attention >> to getting the press fit right. The whole bell is attached at that one press fit >> point. I think I should have heated up the bell a bit & frozen the shaft & >> pressed it in a press, however would need to be weary of splitting the aluminium. >> The result of the not so tight fit was the bell moving off centre in time, this seemed >> ok when running at speed but would scrape at slow speeds. I had looked around >> for a suitable motor with a can bearings like the Turnigy 6374 but not sure if >> this is necessary. >> Tested it out with a 2hp yamaha prop & was getting as good as or better thrust >> than the average thruster that I had information on was achieving. Have a number >> of props to try out. >> Next step is to build another thruster housing for the Maytech motor, make a new >> test jig & order a plc to control the tests. >> One reservation about the Maytech motor is I may have to drill angled holes >> in the end of the bell to cause an oil flow across the windings, or add a small >> impeller to do the same. >> Are you oil filling? >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 12/03/2018, at 1:36 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> Hah! That's the same motor that I ordered - should have checked with you first (1 @ 60Kv and another at 70Kv). >>> >>> Yes I'm a big fan of the temperature sensing, and the sensors are nice for FOC control (quieter at slow speeds). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve >>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Thanks Steve, >>>> any information on them is helpful. >>>> Perhaps Maytech are putting out the Vesc with heatsink as a result of problems! >>>> Not sure if this instigram link works but it is a preview of the Vesc... >>>> https://instagram.com/p/Bd2GOBLA1rU/ >>>> I bought 6 x 6374 sealed sensored outrunner motors off Maytech that I had them wind to 60kv. >>>> They have a temperature sensor on the hall sensor board that the Vesc reads, which >>>> will be handy for testing. Am running these in oil. >>>> They are using these motors on electric surfboards. The wiring isn't as stiff as the "Saite" >>>> motors I tried. >>>> Cheers Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On 11/03/2018, at 12:48 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Alan, >>>>> Yes I looked at the Maytech VESC builds (and have also ordered a BLDC motor sample from them), but the e-skaters do have a few negative things to say about it. I've been testing a "E-SK8" version I got from Hobbyking and it's been completely fine, but the FOCBox has all round excellent reviews and looks the part - I'd rather pay a bit more for something so critical (and I want to be able to use FOC control too). Since I'll be on-selling, hopefully I can get much better than list pricing - I'll let you know if I'm doing a bulk order. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Steve >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> Steve, >>>>>> thanks thats good to hear. >>>>>> I bought my Vesc from Maytech in China. They sell them along with a remote >>>>>> controller for skateboard use. They look like they have done a good job, & >>>>>> if they haven't you'll hear about it from the Skateboarding community. >>>>>> My Vesc cost about $100- & they are about to release a Vesc with heat sink >>>>>> in an aluminium housing. >>>>>> The Vesc Maytech sent me needed the firmware updating, & then I had to order >>>>>> an ST link from them to update the firmware. They sent the wrong wires with it. >>>>>> Apart from that, I have been buying bldc motors from them that are good quality. >>>>>> Will let you know when they release this & what the price is if you like. >>>>>> I was looking at the focbox, it looks like they have done a good job with it. >>>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10/03/2018, at 10:04 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Alan, >>>>>>> I've also been using the VESC brushless motor controller (I use the FOCBOX type, which is sold in Australia) for diver propulsion vehicles and they are fantastic, with all their diagnostics and open source firmware. They also can have a Bluetooth module added so everything can be monitored on a smartphone app (Android). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2018 6:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>>>> Cliff, Steve, (mainly) >>>>>>> just an update on where I am with the plc choice. >>>>>>> Even though I had done a plc programming course I was getting totally >>>>>>> bewildered with all the I/Os & what sort of information I could extract >>>>>>> from my motor controller, BMS etc. Have bought a Vesc which is a small electronic >>>>>>> brushless speed controller that can read rpm, amp draw & temperature from my >>>>>>> motors. I have over 60 I/Os & most are analogue. >>>>>>> I ended up contacting an electrician specialising in industrial automation >>>>>>> who is also an electronics geek. He is young enough to be up on all the latest >>>>>>> technology. He is coming up with all sorts of ways of reducing the I/Os using >>>>>>> raspberry pi etc. >>>>>>> So glad to leave it in his hands; will see what he comes up with. >>>>>>> Alan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 03:33:34 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 20:33:34 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electric manipulator (Hank) Message-ID: <54093CB6-0C9F-4414-B7C4-B2357CBE1DCB@yahoo.com> Hank, came across a post from Phil I had photo copied about his design for a cheap electric manipulator. There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion on the ROV!) Phil Sent from my iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 06:26:10 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:26:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Electric manipulator (Hank) In-Reply-To: <54093CB6-0C9F-4414-B7C4-B2357CBE1DCB@yahoo.com> References: <54093CB6-0C9F-4414-B7C4-B2357CBE1DCB@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1021939023.1054035.1520850370801@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alan,Yes Phil has done a lot to move things forward. ?Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 1:33:58 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,came across a post from Phil I had photo copied about his designfor a cheap electric manipulator.There is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use ? that is, there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the same time. If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a lineal movement like a piston (run the rotary shaft through a camera case style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a swagelock style compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the compression olive or the metal compression ring)? rack and pinion all stay out side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it worked OK ? (also used two drill motors for propulsion on the ROV!) Phil Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 07:50:22 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 12:50:22 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Malen for sale Message-ID: <06cb01d3b9f8$4dace200$e906a600$@nl> https://www.finn.no/boat/forsale/ad.html?finnkode=115544141 Is the M101 already sold? Br, Emile D.L. van Essen www.airesearch.nl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 07:59:51 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:59:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose In-Reply-To: <05f801d3b970$29a7e0e0$7cf7a2a0$@nl> References: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> <1730615537.685398.1520788549378@mail.yahoo.com> <05f801d3b970$29a7e0e0$7cf7a2a0$@nl> Message-ID: <1847109591.1107418.1520855991366@mail.yahoo.com> Emile, are you are suggesting that the HP hose won't deliver the volume necessary?? A good point, thanks. Jon From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose #yiv3919918258 #yiv3919918258 -- _filtered #yiv3919918258 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3919918258 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3919918258 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3919918258 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv3919918258 #yiv3919918258 p.yiv3919918258MsoNormal, #yiv3919918258 li.yiv3919918258MsoNormal, #yiv3919918258 div.yiv3919918258MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3919918258 a:link, #yiv3919918258 span.yiv3919918258MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3919918258 a:visited, #yiv3919918258 span.yiv3919918258MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3919918258 p.yiv3919918258MsoAcetate, #yiv3919918258 li.yiv3919918258MsoAcetate, #yiv3919918258 div.yiv3919918258MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv3919918258 span.yiv3919918258E-mailStijl17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3919918258 span.yiv3919918258BallontekstChar {}#yiv3919918258 .yiv3919918258MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv3919918258 {margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}#yiv3919918258 div.yiv3919918258WordSection1 {}#yiv3919918258 The HP port has usually a restriction . A safety feature for the case of a Hp hose burst.Could maybe enlarged. ?Br, Emile ?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zondag 11 maart 2018 18:16 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose ?Is there some other way to tap HP off a SCUBA tank other than first stage regulator?? I was thinking of running the HP hose to a manifold that would feed the ballast tanks. ?From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose ?HP SCUBA regulator orifice is 7/16-20 UNF 2B thread. There are Swagelok and other fittings which will work, but watch your wrench clearances when using multiple adjacent ports. On that note, LP SCUBA ports are either 3/8-24 UNF - 2B (most common) or 1/2-20 UNF - 2B (less common). Be aware that while most HP SCUBA SPG hoses have a pinhole bore in order to reduce the consequences of a HP hose failure, some SCUBA regulators incorporate the pinhole restriction into the regulator itself, which will limit the available flow rate at high pressure. Of course, if your drawing gas off at high pressure anyway, why go through the reg? Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 07:12, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? ?Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? ?Jon ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 08:11:40 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 08:11:40 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose In-Reply-To: <1847109591.1107418.1520855991366@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> <1730615537.685398.1520788549378@mail.yahoo.com> <05f801d3b970$29a7e0e0$7cf7a2a0$@nl> <1847109591.1107418.1520855991366@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Exactly that. Either the male HP hose end fitting, or the HP port on the SCUBA regulator, or both, will have the available flow orifice reduced to a mere pinhole. On a SCUBA regulator, the HP hose is deadheaded. It's intended purpose is simply to pressurize the submersible pressure gauge or transmitter - not to deliver flow. The pinhole restrictions prevent catastrophic gas loss if the HP hose bursts or is severed. In fact, gas loss from a failed low pressure hose is much more significant than on the HP side due to these restrictors. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 12, 2018, 04:59, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Emile, are you are suggesting that the HP hose won't deliver the volume necessary? A good point, thanks. > > Jon > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > From: emile via Personal_Submersibles > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 3:38 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose > > The HP port has usually a restriction . A safety feature for the case of a Hp hose burst. > Could maybe enlarged. > > Br, Emile > > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: zondag 11 maart 2018 18:16 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose > > Is there some other way to tap HP off a SCUBA tank other than first stage regulator? I was thinking of running the HP hose to a manifold that would feed the ballast tanks. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 10:54 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose > > HP SCUBA regulator orifice is 7/16-20 UNF 2B thread. There are Swagelok and other fittings which will work, but watch your wrench clearances when using multiple adjacent ports. On that note, LP SCUBA ports are either 3/8-24 UNF - 2B (most common) or 1/2-20 UNF - 2B (less common). Be aware that while most HP SCUBA SPG hoses have a pinhole bore in order to reduce the consequences of a HP hose failure, some SCUBA regulators incorporate the pinhole restriction into the regulator itself, which will limit the available flow rate at high pressure. Of course, if your drawing gas off at high pressure anyway, why go through the reg? > > Sean > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Mar 11, 2018, 07:12, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 08:26:13 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 12:26:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure/depth sensor for ROV project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1594861179.1085834.1520857573906@mail.yahoo.com> It depends on the accuracy you want.? I looked at the data sheet and the accuracy of the bluerobotic sensor is +/- 2 bar, almost 20 meters or 65 feet. SSI technologies makes a 300psi sensor with 0.5% accuracy, about +/- 3.5 feet.? They are available from Digikey for $95.? I have been prototyping with these but may turn to Honeywell for actual diving. Honeywell has the best specifications to produce actual depth accuracy but are more expensive. Bottom line is that accuracy costs money.? Keep in mind that a given sensor accuracy and subsequent depth calculation accuracy changes based upon the overall range of the sensor chosen.? For example, a 1000psi sensor with 0.5% accuracy will result in +/- 12 feet depth accuracy.? However, note that the 300psi sensor with the same 0.5% accuracy will reduce the overall depth accuracy to +/- 3.5 feet.? So choose a sensor that is as close as possible to the maximum depth you intend to dive, then get as accurate a sensor as you can afford. Jon From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure/depth sensor for ROV project Not sure what your budget is, but I almost exclusively use Honeywell FP2000 series sensors. Price will depend on options. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 16:37, Ludwig Johanning via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: What are you guys using for a pressure/depth sensors on your subs??? I'm looking for a pressure/depth sensor good for at least 100 meters for a ROV project at my university.? I have found a sensor which is good for 100 meters on BlueRobotics but would like to see what you guys are using first.?? Thanks,Ludwig? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 08:27:31 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 12:27:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose In-Reply-To: References: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> <1730615537.685398.1520788549378@mail.yahoo.com> <05f801d3b970$29a7e0e0$7cf7a2a0$@nl> <1847109591.1107418.1520855991366@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1109294461.1129324.1520857651544@mail.yahoo.com> Great info, much appreciated.? So rigid pipe it is. From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose Exactly that. Either the male HP hose end fitting, or the HP port on the SCUBA regulator, or both, will have the available flow orifice reduced to a mere pinhole. On a SCUBA regulator, the HP hose is deadheaded. It's intended purpose is simply to pressurize the submersible pressure gauge or transmitter - not to deliver flow. The pinhole restrictions prevent catastrophic gas loss if the HP hose bursts or is severed. In fact, gas loss from a failed low pressure hose is much more significant than on the HP side due to these restrictors. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 12, 2018, 04:59, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Emile, are you are suggesting that the HP hose won't deliver the volume necessary?? A good point, thanks. Jon From: emile via Personal_Submersibles To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose The HP port has usually a restriction . A safety feature for the case of a Hp hose burst.Could maybe enlarged. ?Br, Emile ?Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zondag 11 maart 2018 18:16 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose ?Is there some other way to tap HP off a SCUBA tank other than first stage regulator?? I was thinking of running the HP hose to a manifold that would feed the ballast tanks. ?From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose ?HP SCUBA regulator orifice is 7/16-20 UNF 2B thread. There are Swagelok and other fittings which will work, but watch your wrench clearances when using multiple adjacent ports. On that note, LP SCUBA ports are either 3/8-24 UNF - 2B (most common) or 1/2-20 UNF - 2B (less common). Be aware that while most HP SCUBA SPG hoses have a pinhole bore in order to reduce the consequences of a HP hose failure, some SCUBA regulators incorporate the pinhole restriction into the regulator itself, which will limit the available flow rate at high pressure. Of course, if your drawing gas off at high pressure anyway, why go through the reg? Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 11, 2018, 07:12, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? ?Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? ?Jon ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 09:48:01 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 9:48:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose In-Reply-To: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20180312134801.7BECA.43185.root@cdptpa-web09> Jon, not sure what you have decided on but I found a place I've bought adaptors from for my O2 system. Well Marine Diver, http://www.wmd.com.tw/ I also bought a first stage regulator from them. Alec turned me on to them and they have been a reasonable resource. Thanks, Steve ---- Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? > Jon From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 09:52:03 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 13:52:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1838534002.1176601.1520862723587@mail.yahoo.com> Hi all,New video of my electric arm installed on Gamma.Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018, 7:49:45 AM MDTSubject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Hkkxq3Xkc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2018-03-12 at 7.49 AM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6717 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 10:28:54 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:28:54 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1838534002.1176601.1520862723587@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1838534002.1176601.1520862723587@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That is so cool!!! Well done! Thanks for sharing it. Best personal regards, Greg > On Mar 12, 2018, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > New video of my electric arm installed on Gamma. > Hank > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: xxx xxxxx > To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018, 7:49:45 AM MDT > Subject: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Hkkxq3Xkc > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 14:07:07 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 14:07:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose In-Reply-To: <1109294461.1129324.1520857651544@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1726342764.614425.1520777578568.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1726342764.614425.1520777578568@mail.yahoo.com> <3WI144fwT9osOgv6U0TZxA3WFrNcD9MGHannH4_b6pt7pkJ32QPeS0d2DGYy8JkcLVpzPHZwD43ivAdKQwskN4s_npVzr9eRW4nJIzW1Kdw=@protonmail.com> <1730615537.685398.1520788549378@mail.yahoo.com> <05f801d3b970$29a7e0e0$7cf7a2a0$@nl> <1847109591.1107418.1520855991366@mail.yahoo.com> <1109294461.1129324.1520857651544@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jon, No, you don't need to use rigid pipe, hose is fine. It's just that the hose should not be connected to the 1st stage HP port if you want flow. Do some searches on "SCUBA whip" and you'll find flexible hose that connects straight to a tank and is suitable for flow. Best, Alec On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 8:27 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Great info, much appreciated. So rigid pipe it is. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2018 8:14 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose > > Exactly that. Either the male HP hose end fitting, or the HP port on the > SCUBA regulator, or both, will have the available flow orifice reduced to a > mere pinhole. On a SCUBA regulator, the HP hose is deadheaded. It's > intended purpose is simply to pressurize the submersible pressure gauge or > transmitter - not to deliver flow. The pinhole restrictions prevent > catastrophic gas loss if the HP hose bursts or is severed. In fact, gas > loss from a failed low pressure hose is much more significant than on the > HP side due to these restrictors. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Mar 12, 2018, 04:59, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Emile, are you are suggesting that the HP hose won't deliver the volume > necessary? A good point, thanks. > > Jon > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* emile via Personal_Submersibles > *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2018 3:38 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose > > The HP port has usually a restriction . A safety feature for the case of a > Hp hose burst. > Could maybe enlarged. > > Br, Emile > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles- > bounces at psubs.org] *Namens *Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > *Verzonden:* zondag 11 maart 2018 18:16 > *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Onderwerp:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose > > Is there some other way to tap HP off a SCUBA tank other than first stage > regulator? I was thinking of running the HP hose to a manifold that would > feed the ballast tanks. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2018 10:54 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] HP Scuba hose > > HP SCUBA regulator orifice is 7/16-20 UNF 2B thread. There are Swagelok > and other fittings which will work, but watch your wrench clearances when > using multiple adjacent ports. On that note, LP SCUBA ports are either > 3/8-24 UNF - 2B (most common) or 1/2-20 UNF - 2B (less common). Be aware > that while most HP SCUBA SPG hoses have a pinhole bore in order to reduce > the consequences of a HP hose failure, some SCUBA regulators incorporate > the pinhole restriction into the regulator itself, which will limit the > available flow rate at high pressure. Of course, if your drawing gas off at > high pressure anyway, why go through the reg? > > Sean > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Mar 11, 2018, 07:12, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Are there adapters that can change a SCUBA HP hose fitting to NPT? > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 14:13:29 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 18:13:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <1838534002.1176601.1520862723587@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <764766742.1389609.1520878409768@mail.yahoo.com> Greg,Thank you, I am super pleased with the arm. ?It may lack that sex arm look, you know, the arms that look like they are made out of street bike parts. ?But, it works better than I imagined, it has great precision and lots of power. ?Most of all, it is very inexpensive to make.Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 8:29:09 AM MDT, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That is so cool!!!Well done!?Thanks for sharing it.?Best personal regards,?Greg On Mar 12, 2018, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,New video of my electric arm installed on Gamma.Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018, 7:49:45 AM MDTSubject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Hkkxq3Xkc _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 14:49:22 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 18:49:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <764766742.1389609.1520878409768@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1838534002.1176601.1520862723587@mail.yahoo.com> <764766742.1389609.1520878409768@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1197224167.1427503.1520880562125@mail.yahoo.com> Whoops, my last post should say "sexy arm look" ?lolHank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 12:14:13 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,Thank you, I am super pleased with the arm. ?It may lack that sex arm look, you know, the arms that look like they are made out of street bike parts. ?But, it works better than I imagined, it has great precision and lots of power. ?Most of all, it is very inexpensive to make.Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 8:29:09 AM MDT, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That is so cool!!!Well done!?Thanks for sharing it.?Best personal regards,?Greg On Mar 12, 2018, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,New video of my electric arm installed on Gamma.Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018, 7:49:45 AM MDTSubject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Hkkxq3Xkc _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 16:40:29 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 21:40:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Malen for sale In-Reply-To: <06cb01d3b9f8$4dace200$e906a600$@nl> References: <06cb01d3b9f8$4dace200$e906a600$@nl> Message-ID: <1520887229314.2987937.5834c2d10baf0f505ad5ad1ddc6e76186dac2d05@spica.telekom.de> Sweden Kronen ? 0,098 Euro? = 245.000 euro ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Malen for sale Datum: 2018-03-12T12:51:38+0100 Von: "emile via Personal_Submersibles" An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" https://www.finn.no/boat/forsale/ad.html?finnkode=115544141 Is the M101 already sold? Br, Emile D.L. van Essen www.airesearch.nl ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 17:36:58 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 22:36:58 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Malen for sale Message-ID: Hi, Does any one of you know how the Malen manages to have a pressure vessel without stiffners or frames? Best regards Beram Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Windows Phone mit GMX Mail gesendet. -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" Gesendet: Montag, 12. M?rz 2018 21:40 An: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Malen for sale Sweden Kronen ? 0,098 Euro? = 245.000 euro ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Malen for sale Datum: 2018-03-12T12:51:38+0100 Von: "emile via Personal_Submersibles" An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" https://www.finn.no/boat/forsale/ad.html?finnkode=115544141 Is the M101 already sold? Br, Emile D.L. van Essen www.airesearch.nl ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: _151801743 (2).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 46006 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 17:55:33 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 14:55:33 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <954698850.26541.1520891733505@wamui-napoleon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 18:33:53 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 22:33:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <954698850.26541.1520891733505@wamui-napoleon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <954698850.26541.1520891733505@wamui-napoleon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <160509731.21874.1520894033393@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Ian, LOLI could not use the gears because they are herring bone. ?The herring bone pattern will not let the gears slide and that is an issue because the tolerance is to tight then. ?Yes this is the arm you made the gears for. ?When I get back to work on it I will have a better idea of what I need. ?Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 3:55:45 PM MDT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv7821525465 #yiv7821525465 -- DIV {margin:0px;}#yiv7821525465 Heh, that "sex arm look" comment made me wonder why you tested it on a banana. Is this the one with the 3D printed gears? Let me know if you need another set, or different material, etc.. Cheers! ?Ian. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Mar 12, 2018 11:49 AM To: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Whoops, my last post should say "sexy arm look" ?lolHank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 12:14:13 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,Thank you, I am super pleased with the arm. ?It may lack that sex arm look, you know, the arms that look like they are made out of street bike parts. ?But, it works better than I imagined, it has great precision and lots of power. ?Most of all, it is very inexpensive to make.Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 8:29:09 AM MDT, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That is so cool!!!Well done!?Thanks for sharing it.?Best personal regards,?Greg On Mar 12, 2018, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,New video of my electric arm installed on Gamma.Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018, 7:49:45 AM MDTSubject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Hkkxq3Xkc _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 18:34:25 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 23:34:25 +0100 (CET) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Malen for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1520894065482.2988193.cdbb24342e16310fef8edd347285421cb7206080@spica.telekom.de> I count 7 Frames in the drawing - but the engine bay frame distance seems very long. The pressure hull design seems very close to UC1 Freya and UC2 Kraka. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Malen for sale Datum: 2018-03-12T22:38:37+0100 Von: "via Personal_Submersibles" An: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" , "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Hi, Does any one of you know how the Malen manages to have a pressure vessel without stiffners or frames? Best regards Beram Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Windows Phone mit GMX Mail gesendet. -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" Gesendet: Montag, 12. M?rz 2018 21:40 An: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Malen for sale Sweden Kronen ? 0,098 Euro? = 245.000 euro ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Malen for sale Datum: 2018-03-12T12:51:38+0100 Von: "emile via Personal_Submersibles" An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" https://www.finn.no/boat/forsale/ad.html?finnkode=115544141 Is the M101 already sold? Br, Emile D.L. van Essen www.airesearch.nl _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Tanks Kraka.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79351 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 18:36:04 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 22:36:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <954698850.26541.1520891733505@wamui-napoleon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <954698850.26541.1520891733505@wamui-napoleon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <751968447.63245.1520894164728@mail.yahoo.com> Ian,We are going to Lake Tahoe for the last week of June, your in California if I recall. ?If your around that area, I can take you for a ?dive in Gamma.Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 3:55:45 PM MDT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv7821525465 #yiv7821525465 -- DIV {margin:0px;}#yiv7821525465 Heh, that "sex arm look" comment made me wonder why you tested it on a banana. Is this the one with the 3D printed gears? Let me know if you need another set, or different material, etc.. Cheers! ?Ian. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Mar 12, 2018 11:49 AM To: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Whoops, my last post should say "sexy arm look" ?lolHank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 12:14:13 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,Thank you, I am super pleased with the arm. ?It may lack that sex arm look, you know, the arms that look like they are made out of street bike parts. ?But, it works better than I imagined, it has great precision and lots of power. ?Most of all, it is very inexpensive to make.Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 8:29:09 AM MDT, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That is so cool!!!Well done!?Thanks for sharing it.?Best personal regards,?Greg On Mar 12, 2018, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,New video of my electric arm installed on Gamma.Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018, 7:49:45 AM MDTSubject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Hkkxq3Xkc _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 18:46:11 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 22:46:11 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <751968447.63245.1520894164728@mail.yahoo.com> References: <954698850.26541.1520891733505@wamui-napoleon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <751968447.63245.1520894164728@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, when your going to be at Tahoe, let me know, and i'll be glad to assist, support diver, com ops, general gofer. On Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 3:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Ian, > We are going to Lake Tahoe for the last week of June, your in California > if I recall. If your around that area, I can take you for a dive in Gamma. > Hank > > > On Monday, March 12, 2018, 3:55:45 PM MDT, irox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Heh, that "sex arm look" comment made me wonder why you tested it on a > banana. > > Is this the one with the 3D printed gears? > Let me know if you need another set, or different material, etc.. > > Cheers! > Ian. > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Mar 12, 2018 11:49 AM > To: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > Whoops, my last post should say "sexy arm look" lol > Hank > > > On Monday, March 12, 2018, 12:14:13 PM MDT, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Greg, > Thank you, I am super pleased with the arm. It may lack that sex arm > look, you know, the arms that look like they are made out of street bike > parts. But, it works better than I imagined, it has great precision and > lots of power. Most of all, it is very inexpensive to make. > Hank > > On Monday, March 12, 2018, 8:29:09 AM MDT, Gregory Snyder via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > That is so cool!!! > Well done! > Thanks for sharing it. > Best personal regards, > Greg > > On Mar 12, 2018, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > New video of my electric arm installed on Gamma. > Hank > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > *From:* xxx xxxxx > *To:* hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca > *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2018, 7:49:45 AM MDT > *Subject:* > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Hkkxq3Xkc > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 18:49:43 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 15:49:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info In-Reply-To: <1214845715.611510.1520766892519@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1214845715.611510.1520766892519@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Thanks for the warm welcome! Here are some photos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/pckEMWuvkcofc4h02 I know practically nothing about how she was built and she hasn't been delivered yet, but looking forward to finding out what the options and constraints are! Best, Shanee ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ <>< <>< ) <*III>< <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< <>< <>< <>< ) ) 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 4:14 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Shanee, > Can you post some pictures of your new sub. I for one love pictures of > unknown subs and how they are built, as do most of us. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 10, 2018, 9:12:11 PM MST, Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that > I would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have > Frank Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential > reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and > carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! > > Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find > any. > > Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody > out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie > questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group > all the time. > > Best fishes, > Shanee > > ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ > <>< <>< ) <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ) ) > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 19:07:59 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 23:07:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info In-Reply-To: References: <1214845715.611510.1520766892519@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <196624732.47908.1520896079192@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Shanee,We are familiar with this sub, it looks to be built from a 500 gallon propane tank with another propane tank for the conning tower. ?Clearly the limiting factor for depth would be the large flat front window. ?Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 4:50:01 PM MDT, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, Thanks for the warm welcome! Here are some photos:?https://photos.app.goo.gl/pckEMWuvkcofc4h02 I know practically nothing about how she was built and she hasn't been delivered yet, but looking forward to finding out what the options and constraints are!? Best,Shanee? ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> wrote: Hi Shanee,?Can you post some pictures of your new sub.? I for one love pictures of unknown subs and how they are built, as do most of us. ?Hank On Saturday, March 10, 2018, 9:12:11 PM MST, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that I would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have Frank Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find any.? Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group all the time.? Best fishes,Shanee? ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^ ~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 19:13:15 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 23:13:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info In-Reply-To: References: <1214845715.611510.1520766892519@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1824299895.70721.1520896395117@mail.yahoo.com> That sub was built by Les Katschor.? You can see some of its development at?http://www.psubs.org/projects/1237526415/twomansub/ Did you buy it from Les?? He could certainly fill you in on its capabilities.? He dived it at the 2012 convention in Michigan.? Go to PSUBS.ORG -> Psubs Community -> Video -> 2012 and you will find some footage of him in the submarine. From: Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info Hi all, Thanks for the warm welcome! Here are some photos:?https://photos.app.goo.gl/pckEMWuvkcofc4h02 I know practically nothing about how she was built and she hasn't been delivered yet, but looking forward to finding out what the options and constraints are!? Best,Shanee? ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> wrote: Hi Shanee,?Can you post some pictures of your new sub.? I for one love pictures of unknown subs and how they are built, as do most of us. ?Hank On Saturday, March 10, 2018, 9:12:11 PM MST, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that I would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have Frank Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find any.? Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group all the time.? Best fishes,Shanee? ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^ ~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 19:23:28 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 16:23:28 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <1161603783.30212.1520897008198@wamui-napoleon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 19:28:47 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 16:28:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <201803122328.w2CNSDuj061762@whoweb.com> Hank, Please email me direct: K6fee at yahoo.com? Regarding Tahoe in June. Thanks Keith? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 3/12/18 3:36 PM (GMT-08:00) To: irox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Ian,We are going to Lake Tahoe for the last week of June, your in California if I recall. ?If your around that area, I can take you for a ?dive in Gamma.Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 3:55:45 PM MDT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv7821525465 #yiv7821525465 -- DIV {margin:0px;}#yiv7821525465 Heh, that "sex arm look" comment made me wonder why you tested it on a banana. Is this the one with the 3D printed gears? Let me know if you need another set, or different material, etc.. Cheers! ?Ian. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Mar 12, 2018 11:49 AM To: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Whoops, my last post should say "sexy arm look" ?lolHank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 12:14:13 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg,Thank you, I am super pleased with the arm. ?It may lack that sex arm look, you know, the arms that look like they are made out of street bike parts. ?But, it works better than I imagined, it has great precision and lots of power. ?Most of all, it is very inexpensive to make.Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 8:29:09 AM MDT, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That is so cool!!!Well done!?Thanks for sharing it.?Best personal regards,?Greg On Mar 12, 2018, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,New video of my electric arm installed on Gamma.Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018, 7:49:45 AM MDTSubject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Hkkxq3Xkc _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 20:19:54 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 17:19:54 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info In-Reply-To: <1824299895.70721.1520896395117@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1214845715.611510.1520766892519@mail.yahoo.com> <1824299895.70721.1520896395117@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the info! I got it from someone who got it from Les - I've been able to ask him some questions but not a lot yet. I'll have to check out the archives. Any thoughts on a max depth for the hull design? We would like to change the front window, and are also looking to purchase one used if anyone has any leads or ideas. Best, Shanee ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ <>< <>< ) <*III>< <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< <>< <>< <>< ) ) 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > That sub was built by Les Katschor. You can see some of its development > at http://www.psubs.org/projects/1237526415/twomansub/ > > Did you buy it from Les? He could certainly fill you in on its > capabilities. He dived it at the 2012 convention in Michigan. Go to > PSUBS.ORG -> Psubs Community -> Video -> 2012 and you will find some > footage of him in the submarine. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2018 6:56 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info > > Hi all, > > Thanks for the warm welcome! Here are some photos: https://photos.app. > goo.gl/pckEMWuvkcofc4h02 > > I know practically nothing about how she was built and she hasn't been > delivered yet, but looking forward to finding out what the options and > constraints are! > > Best, > Shanee > > > ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ > <>< <>< ) <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ) ) > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 4:14 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > Can you post some pictures of your new sub. I for one love pictures of > unknown subs and how they are built, as do most of us. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 10, 2018, 9:12:11 PM MST, Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that > I would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have > Frank Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential > reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and > carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! > > Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find > any. > > Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody > out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie > questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group > all the time. > > Best fishes, > Shanee > > ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^ ~~ > <>< <>< ) <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ) ) > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 21:08:37 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 01:08:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info In-Reply-To: References: <1214845715.611510.1520766892519@mail.yahoo.com> <1824299895.70721.1520896395117@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2126580228.124129.1520903317420@mail.yahoo.com> Shanee,My feeling is you will end up welding a hemi head or elliptical head onto the front end of your hull and installing multiple ports. ?You might be able to buy a head and weld a ring to that that can be bolted to your existing ring. ?You could avoid cutting and welding to the hull. ?What is your depth goal? ?This is pure speculation without seeing how it is built.Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 6:20:13 PM MDT, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks for the info! I got it from someone who got it from Les - I've been able to ask him some questions but not a lot yet. I'll have to check out the archives.? Any thoughts on a max depth for the hull design? We would like to change the front window, and are also looking to purchase one used if anyone has any leads or ideas.? Best,Shanee ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> wrote: That sub was built by Les Katschor.? You can see some of its development at?http://www.psubs.org/ projects/1237526415/twomansub/ Did you buy it from Les?? He could certainly fill you in on its capabilities.? He dived it at the 2012 convention in Michigan.? Go to PSUBS.ORG -> Psubs Community -> Video -> 2012 and you will find some footage of him in the submarine. From: Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info Hi all, Thanks for the warm welcome! Here are some photos:?https://photos.app. goo.gl/pckEMWuvkcofc4h02 I know practically nothing about how she was built and she hasn't been delivered yet, but looking forward to finding out what the options and constraints are!? Best,Shanee? ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^ ~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> wrote: Hi Shanee,?Can you post some pictures of your new sub.? I for one love pictures of unknown subs and how they are built, as do most of us. ?Hank On Saturday, March 10, 2018, 9:12:11 PM MST, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that I would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have Frank Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find any.? Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group all the time.? Best fishes,Shanee? ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^ ~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 21:39:21 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 01:39:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info In-Reply-To: <2126580228.124129.1520903317420@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1214845715.611510.1520766892519@mail.yahoo.com> <1824299895.70721.1520896395117@mail.yahoo.com> <2126580228.124129.1520903317420@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1060851264.131024.1520905161501@mail.yahoo.com> Shanee,I had a look at the construction photo's of your sub and my idea of bolting a new head on will not work. ?If you want to go with a new front head, you can email me at hankpronk at live.ca ?I have all kinds of heads and ports and port frames. ?I can build you a front head with ports installed ready to weld onto you hull. ?If you live close enough i can do it all for you.Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 7:09:01 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee,My feeling is you will end up welding a hemi head or elliptical head onto the front end of your hull and installing multiple ports. ?You might be able to buy a head and weld a ring to that that can be bolted to your existing ring. ?You could avoid cutting and welding to the hull. ?What is your depth goal? ?This is pure speculation without seeing how it is built.Hank On Monday, March 12, 2018, 6:20:13 PM MDT, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks for the info! I got it from someone who got it from Les - I've been able to ask him some questions but not a lot yet. I'll have to check out the archives.? Any thoughts on a max depth for the hull design? We would like to change the front window, and are also looking to purchase one used if anyone has any leads or ideas.? Best,Shanee ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> wrote: That sub was built by Les Katschor.? You can see some of its development at?http://www.psubs.org/ projects/1237526415/twomansub/ Did you buy it from Les?? He could certainly fill you in on its capabilities.? He dived it at the 2012 convention in Michigan.? Go to PSUBS.ORG -> Psubs Community -> Video -> 2012 and you will find some footage of him in the submarine. From: Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info Hi all, Thanks for the warm welcome! Here are some photos:?https://photos.app. goo.gl/pckEMWuvkcofc4h02 I know practically nothing about how she was built and she hasn't been delivered yet, but looking forward to finding out what the options and constraints are!? Best,Shanee? ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^ ~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> wrote: Hi Shanee,?Can you post some pictures of your new sub.? I for one love pictures of unknown subs and how they are built, as do most of us. ?Hank On Saturday, March 10, 2018, 9:12:11 PM MST, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that I would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have Frank Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find any.? Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group all the time.? Best fishes,Shanee? ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^ ~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 21:55:35 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 14:55:35 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info In-Reply-To: <2126580228.124129.1520903317420@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1214845715.611510.1520766892519@mail.yahoo.com> <1824299895.70721.1520896395117@mail.yahoo.com> <2126580228.124129.1520903317420@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8B067641-E1E3-400D-96B0-01265DEDC69C@yahoo.com> Shanee, I would think that the large flat viewport at the front would be the lowest denominator with view to depth. Ask Les what he thinks is the weakest point. If it is that viewport, then replacing it might get you a bit more depth. For shallow diving submarines to 5 bar pressure you are supposed to test them unmanned to 1.7 x the intended dive depth & on paper they should withstand 3.2 X this. For 5-10 bar pressure diving depth it is tested to 1.4 X this with a theoretical crush depth of 2.4 times diving depth. So if you think it will crush at 240ft you can dive it to 100ft as long as you have tested it to 140ft under the GL rules for 5-10 bar diving depth. I would think it would be hard to analyse the crush depth, & of course if you test it beyond it's strength you end up with no sub:( Looks a nice sub. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 13/03/2018, at 2:08 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Shanee, > My feeling is you will end up welding a hemi head or elliptical head onto the front end of your hull and installing multiple ports. > You might be able to buy a head and weld a ring to that that can be bolted to your existing ring. You could avoid cutting and welding to the hull. What is your depth goal? This is pure speculation without seeing how it is built. > Hank > > On Monday, March 12, 2018, 6:20:13 PM MDT, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks for the info! I got it from someone who got it from Les - I've been able to ask him some questions but not a lot yet. I'll have to check out the archives. > > Any thoughts on a max depth for the hull design? We would like to change the front window, and are also looking to purchase one used if anyone has any leads or ideas. > > Best, > Shanee > > ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ > <>< <>< ) <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ) ) > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi > > On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > That sub was built by Les Katschor. You can see some of its development at http://www.psubs.org/ projects/1237526415/twomansub/ > > Did you buy it from Les? He could certainly fill you in on its capabilities. He dived it at the 2012 convention in Michigan. Go to PSUBS.ORG -> Psubs Community -> Video -> 2012 and you will find some footage of him in the submarine. > > > From: Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 6:56 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info > > Hi all, > > Thanks for the warm welcome! Here are some photos: https://photos.app. goo.gl/pckEMWuvkcofc4h02 > > I know practically nothing about how she was built and she hasn't been delivered yet, but looking forward to finding out what the options and constraints are! > > Best, > Shanee > > > ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^ ~~ > <>< <>< ) <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ) ) > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi > > On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 4:14 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Shanee, > Can you post some pictures of your new sub. I for one love pictures of unknown subs and how they are built, as do most of us. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 10, 2018, 9:12:11 PM MST, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that I would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have Frank Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! > > Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find any. > > Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group all the time. > > Best fishes, > Shanee > > ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^ ~~ > <>< <>< ) <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ) ) > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 22:39:57 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 22:39:57 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1161603783.30212.1520897008198@wamui-napoleon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1161603783.30212.1520897008198@wamui-napoleon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Folks, the Tahoe trip is a joint effort of Hank with Gamma, Cliff with R300, and Craig with a surface vessel and an ROV. Its too far for me to take Shackleton from the East coast, but I'm tagging long to make a film of it. This is under the Innerspace Science banner, in collaboration with scientists from UC Davis and NASA. Detailed agenda will follow when ready, but if PSUBS members want to put it on their schedules the dates are June 25-29 and the base of operations most likely will be the Southern end of the lake. Most likely day 1 will be shallow water test dives to make sure all is well after the long tows from Canada and Texas, maybe some rides and video shoots, and a depth test. The balance of the week is more science focused. The science objectives will likely comprise a check of an ancient flooded forest, mapping the extension of an invasive weed, and monitoring the rate of sedimentation on the wreck of the SS Tahoe. Please consider this all preliminary information. Best, Alec On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 7:23 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Hank, > > that would be awesome! I'm just a fee hours away near San Francisco. > > I see how the hearing bone would present a problem there. I figured it > would be quieter, but didn't think about the issue with alignment. > > Cheers! > Ian. > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Mar 12, 2018 3:36 PM > To: irox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > Ian, > We are going to Lake Tahoe for the last week of June, your in California > if I recall. If your around that area, I can take you for a dive in Gamma. > Hank > > > On Monday, March 12, 2018, 3:55:45 PM MDT, irox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Heh, that "sex arm look" comment made me wonder why you tested it on a > banana. > > Is this the one with the 3D printed gears? > Let me know if you need another set, or different material, etc.. > > Cheers! > Ian. > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Mar 12, 2018 11:49 AM > To: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > Whoops, my last post should say "sexy arm look" lol > Hank > > > On Monday, March 12, 2018, 12:14:13 PM MDT, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Greg, > Thank you, I am super pleased with the arm. It may lack that sex arm > look, you know, the arms that look like they are made out of street bike > parts. But, it works better than I imagined, it has great precision and > lots of power. Most of all, it is very inexpensive to make. > Hank > > On Monday, March 12, 2018, 8:29:09 AM MDT, Gregory Snyder via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > That is so cool!!! > Well done! > Thanks for sharing it. > Best personal regards, > Greg > > On Mar 12, 2018, at 8:52 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > New video of my electric arm installed on Gamma. > Hank > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > *From:* xxx xxxxx > *To:* hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca > *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2018, 7:49:45 AM MDT > *Subject:* > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Hkkxq3Xkc > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 22:43:15 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 02:43:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info In-Reply-To: References: <1214845715.611510.1520766892519@mail.yahoo.com> <1824299895.70721.1520896395117@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <619097958.207424.1520908995546@mail.yahoo.com> I don't think there will be much in the archives, Les did not write much as I recall.? The sub was definitely built for shallow water diving which is what Les and a couple of others in the Michigan area were doing.? They had access to a 30-40 foot deep flooded pit and dove there all the time.? That's why he installed a large flat view port in the front, he knew the vessel was going to be used for shallow dives.? I specifically remember a conversation with him about this at the 2012 convention.? Les was a good guy and I always enjoyed talking with him.? I remember him telling me at that convention that he had essentially lost interest and was going to sell the vessel.? I also see he had some bad luck in 2016; his house burned to the ground and he lost all his possessions. You could reverse engineer the submarine once you get delivery by measuring it carefully and then feeding the info into the hull and view port calculators available on the web site.? That would be the best way of determining the safe operating depth.? The pictures show there is no internal ribbing which will be a limiting factor for the hull.? I don't recall if Les used acrylic for that large main viewport or what the thickness is.? That would be one thing I would query him for. From: Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info Thanks for the info! I got it from someone who got it from Les - I've been able to ask him some questions but not a lot yet. I'll have to check out the archives.? Any thoughts on a max depth for the hull design? We would like to change the front window, and are also looking to purchase one used if anyone has any leads or ideas.? Best,Shanee ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> wrote: That sub was built by Les Katschor.? You can see some of its development at?http://www.psubs.org/ projects/1237526415/twomansub/ Did you buy it from Les?? He could certainly fill you in on its capabilities.? He dived it at the 2012 convention in Michigan.? Go to PSUBS.ORG -> Psubs Community -> Video -> 2012 and you will find some footage of him in the submarine. From: Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info Hi all, Thanks for the warm welcome! Here are some photos:?https://photos.app. goo.gl/pckEMWuvkcofc4h02 I know practically nothing about how she was built and she hasn't been delivered yet, but looking forward to finding out what the options and constraints are!? Best,Shanee? ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^ ~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> wrote: Hi Shanee,?Can you post some pictures of your new sub.? I for one love pictures of unknown subs and how they are built, as do most of us. ?Hank On Saturday, March 10, 2018, 9:12:11 PM MST, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that I would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have Frank Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find any.? Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group all the time.? Best fishes,Shanee? ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^ ~~ <>< <>< ? ? ?? <> From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 23:04:31 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 23:04:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info In-Reply-To: <1824299895.70721.1520896395117@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1214845715.611510.1520766892519@mail.yahoo.com> <1824299895.70721.1520896395117@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh man, I'd forgotten all about that video and really enjoyed seeing it again - I don't think I had done so since 2012. The slow paced editing style is not popular these days, and no doubt would lose half the audience on Youtube before getting to the end, but I still like it that way! :) Alec On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 7:13 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > That sub was built by Les Katschor. You can see some of its development > at http://www.psubs.org/projects/1237526415/twomansub/ > > Did you buy it from Les? He could certainly fill you in on its > capabilities. He dived it at the 2012 convention in Michigan. Go to > PSUBS.ORG -> Psubs Community -> Video -> 2012 and you will find some > footage of him in the submarine. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2018 6:56 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie looking for core starter info > > Hi all, > > Thanks for the warm welcome! Here are some photos: https://photos.app. > goo.gl/pckEMWuvkcofc4h02 > > I know practically nothing about how she was built and she hasn't been > delivered yet, but looking forward to finding out what the options and > constraints are! > > Best, > Shanee > > > ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~ > <>< <>< ) <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ) ) > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 4:14 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > Can you post some pictures of your new sub. I for one love pictures of > unknown subs and how they are built, as do most of us. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 10, 2018, 9:12:11 PM MST, Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I just purchased a simple, shallow (30') water homemade personal sub that > I would like to consider retrofitting to be able to dive deeper. I have > Frank Busby's book and am wondering if there are more sources of essential > reading on building and maintaining a sub. We plan to go slowly and > carefully with any developments, but I need to start somewhere! > > Is there a searchable archive of past email threads? I wasn't able to find > any. > > Thanks for any and all input. It would be also great if there is anybody > out there who is particularly enthusiastic about answering many newbie > questions because I will have a lot and don't want to annoy the whole group > all the time. > > Best fishes, > Shanee > > ~~~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^~~~~^~~^~~^ ~~ > <>< <>< ) <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ( ( <*III>< > <>< <>< <>< ) ) > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 12 23:10:25 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 20:10:25 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <20180312201025.B479EB77@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 13:53:53 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 07:53:53 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters Message-ID: Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters that can take the 150 psi in? Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 14:38:33 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 11:38:33 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters Message-ID: <20180313113833.B47969A1@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 15:13:22 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:13:22 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64AA9045-AAAD-4B70-AE73-675572413B57@yahoo.com> Rick, as you say "above ambient" so at 350' depth you will have 130psi coming out of the regulator plus another 175psi for the ambient depth. EMT have this...https://www.emtmedicalco.com/GENTEC-OXYGEN-FLOWMETER-WITH-REGULATOR-0-15-LPM-CGA-870-OR-540-191M.htm I bought a pressure regulator for inside the hull to deal with that, however the click style paediatric regulators they have take a high inlet pressure although I can't see any literature on this at EMT..... https://www.emtmedicalco.com/PEDIATRIC-REGULATORS-0-4-LPM-CGA-870-8704.htm Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/03/2018, at 6:53 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. > I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters that can take the 150 psi in? > > Rick > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 15:49:43 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 09:49:43 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: <64AA9045-AAAD-4B70-AE73-675572413B57@yahoo.com> References: <64AA9045-AAAD-4B70-AE73-675572413B57@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, I thought about the fact that the pressure to the inside of the sub would be increasing with depth after I sent the post. Are you also breaking down the HP to LP at the bottle outside the sub? Did you buy the regulator/flow meter you showed me? Rick On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 9:13 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > as you say "above ambient" so at 350' depth you will have 130psi > coming out of the regulator plus another 175psi for the ambient depth. > EMT have this...https://www.emtmedicalco.com/GENTEC-OXYGEN-FLOWMETER-WITH- > REGULATOR-0-15-LPM-CGA-870-OR-540-191M.htm > I bought a pressure regulator for inside the hull to deal with that, > however the click style paediatric regulators they have take a high inlet > pressure > although I can't see any literature on this at EMT..... > https://www.emtmedicalco.com/PEDIATRIC-REGULATORS-0-4-LPM-CGA-870-8704.htm > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 6:53 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told > that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure > of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned > first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. > I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I > should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have > others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters > that can take the 150 psi in? > > Rick > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 15:49:42 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 15:49:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <-ofiSxapALOPi1R-aVv2767lNJXkNM8C77DDUUlpAnrwMsxSc8Z-EOZj08_7NsqVUMBOuVKMjIrltS9sUwt3cPxVF-dXpETOm4TgAkbpnN0=@protonmail.com> Typical SCUBA regulator intermediate pressures are 120 - 150 psi, and the total adjustment range is likely to not be much wider than that. You may have difficulty finding a reg that can be detuned to 50 without custom parts. What is your application that necessitates an ambient pressure reference? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 13, 2018, 10:53, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. > I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters that can take the 150 psi in? > > Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 15:59:10 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 09:59:10 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: <-ofiSxapALOPi1R-aVv2767lNJXkNM8C77DDUUlpAnrwMsxSc8Z-EOZj08_7NsqVUMBOuVKMjIrltS9sUwt3cPxVF-dXpETOm4TgAkbpnN0=@protonmail.com> References: <-ofiSxapALOPi1R-aVv2767lNJXkNM8C77DDUUlpAnrwMsxSc8Z-EOZj08_7NsqVUMBOuVKMjIrltS9sUwt3cPxVF-dXpETOm4TgAkbpnN0=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Sean I had chosen an 02 flow meter and the vendor said that it would not take more than 50 psi and I am lowering the psi at the bottle which is outside with an 02 cleaned first stage reg. Rick On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Typical SCUBA regulator intermediate pressures are 120 - 150 psi, and the > total adjustment range is likely to not be much wider than that. You may > have difficulty finding a reg that can be detuned to 50 without custom > parts. What is your application that necessitates an ambient pressure > reference? > > Sean > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > On Mar 13, 2018, 10:53, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told > that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure > of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned > first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. > I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I > should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have > others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters > that can take the 150 psi in? > > Rick > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 16:08:32 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 09:08:32 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: <64AA9045-AAAD-4B70-AE73-675572413B57@yahoo.com> References: <64AA9045-AAAD-4B70-AE73-675572413B57@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47DC4C95-44B6-49BB-9EC9-16DEEB98D194@yahoo.com> Rick, just looked at my 0-4 LPM paedeatric click style oxygen meter & it says "maximum pressure not to exceed 2600 psi." Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/03/2018, at 8:13 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Rick, > as you say "above ambient" so at 350' depth you will have 130psi > coming out of the regulator plus another 175psi for the ambient depth. > EMT have this...https://www.emtmedicalco.com/GENTEC-OXYGEN-FLOWMETER-WITH-REGULATOR-0-15-LPM-CGA-870-OR-540-191M.htm > I bought a pressure regulator for inside the hull to deal with that, > however the click style paediatric regulators they have take a high inlet pressure > although I can't see any literature on this at EMT..... > https://www.emtmedicalco.com/PEDIATRIC-REGULATORS-0-4-LPM-CGA-870-8704.htm > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 14/03/2018, at 6:53 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. >> I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters that can take the 150 psi in? >> >> Rick >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 16:39:44 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 10:39:44 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: <47DC4C95-44B6-49BB-9EC9-16DEEB98D194@yahoo.com> References: <64AA9045-AAAD-4B70-AE73-675572413B57@yahoo.com> <47DC4C95-44B6-49BB-9EC9-16DEEB98D194@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, So you have the second one you listed so you are bringing the HP 02 right up to that? Rick On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > just looked at my 0-4 LPM paedeatric click style oxygen meter & it says > "maximum pressure not to exceed 2600 psi." > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 8:13 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > as you say "above ambient" so at 350' depth you will have 130psi > coming out of the regulator plus another 175psi for the ambient depth. > EMT have this...https://www.emtmedicalco.com/GENTEC-OXYGEN-FLOWMETER-WITH- > REGULATOR-0-15-LPM-CGA-870-OR-540-191M.htm > I bought a pressure regulator for inside the hull to deal with that, > however the click style paediatric regulators they have take a high inlet > pressure > although I can't see any literature on this at EMT..... > https://www.emtmedicalco.com/PEDIATRIC-REGULATORS-0-4-LPM-CGA-870-8704.htm > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 6:53 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told > that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure > of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned > first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. > I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I > should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have > others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters > that can take the 150 psi in? > > Rick > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 17:07:15 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 14:07:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters Message-ID: <20180313140715.B47E7F30@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 17:27:21 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 10:27:21 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: References: <64AA9045-AAAD-4B70-AE73-675572413B57@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1FB399D8-44F3-42A0-B7A7-2CB3280587C6@yahoo.com> Rick, I bought it when I was first going to build a 1atm but didn't install it as I built an ambient first. I would guess that half the Psubbers have a similar click style regulator & half use a flow meter. I am going with a variation on the "belows add" system where the flow is set below your minimum requirement ( so as to never be able to over-pressurise) & the balance of O2 is added by a bellows or electronically off O2 or pressure readings. I am pretty sure on the Triton 3000 the pilot was just manually adjusting the flow meter off O2 readings like they did in the old days. If you are adjusting manually then the flow meter would be better because the click style regulator "clicks" around to varying range increments whereas you could get a finer adjustment with the flow meter. Mine is a CGA fitting brass sleeved 50psi O2 regulator, 0-4 LPM. Model AREG5404 with input pressure max of 2600 psi. And yes I am running it off an O2 cleaned first stage regulator to keep high pressure O2 away from the hull & the various hardware down line from the regulator. You can adjust the pressure above ambient out of some first stage regulators by replacing the spring. I tried a system of air compensation that Karl Stanley uses; he just takes the spring out of a first stage regulator & that gives him ambient pressure. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/03/2018, at 8:49 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > I thought about the fact that the pressure to the inside of the sub would be increasing with depth after I sent the post. Are you also breaking down the HP to LP at the bottle outside the sub? Did you buy the regulator/flow meter you showed me? > > Rick > > > >> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 9:13 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Rick, >> as you say "above ambient" so at 350' depth you will have 130psi >> coming out of the regulator plus another 175psi for the ambient depth. >> EMT have this...https://www.emtmedicalco.com/GENTEC-OXYGEN-FLOWMETER-WITH-REGULATOR-0-15-LPM-CGA-870-OR-540-191M.htm >> I bought a pressure regulator for inside the hull to deal with that, >> however the click style paediatric regulators they have take a high inlet pressure >> although I can't see any literature on this at EMT..... >> https://www.emtmedicalco.com/PEDIATRIC-REGULATORS-0-4-LPM-CGA-870-8704.htm >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 14/03/2018, at 6:53 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. >>> I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters that can take the 150 psi in? >>> >>> Rick >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 17:53:31 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 10:53:31 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: <1FB399D8-44F3-42A0-B7A7-2CB3280587C6@yahoo.com> References: <64AA9045-AAAD-4B70-AE73-675572413B57@yahoo.com> <1FB399D8-44F3-42A0-B7A7-2CB3280587C6@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6E5B70FE-3B34-4C73-8602-557D98EF205E@yahoo.com> Rick, just to make it more complicated; you need to monitor the contents of your O2 tank, so this may mean bringing the high pressure on to a through hull to read on an internal gauge. In which case you may as well have a regulator off this to your flow meter. Whether you do this off the high pressure port of your first stage or not I am not sure. You would have enough flow from it for your life support system. It may pay to ask how all the Psubbers are doing it & debate the pros & cons. I have had some electronic pressure gauges built with a male fitting compatible with a first stage high pressure port, & are pressure proofing them. So will only have wires not hp on to the sub. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/03/2018, at 10:27 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Rick, > I bought it when I was first going to build a 1atm but didn't install > it as I built an ambient first. > I would guess that half the Psubbers have a similar click style regulator > & half use a flow meter. I am going with a variation on the "belows add" > system where the flow is set below your minimum requirement ( so as to never > be able to over-pressurise) & the balance of O2 is added by a bellows or > electronically off O2 or pressure readings. > I am pretty sure on the Triton 3000 the pilot was just manually adjusting the flow > meter off O2 readings like they did in the old days. If you are adjusting manually > then the flow meter would be better because the click style regulator "clicks" > around to varying range increments whereas you could get a finer adjustment > with the flow meter. > Mine is a CGA fitting brass sleeved 50psi O2 regulator, 0-4 LPM. Model AREG5404 > with input pressure max of 2600 psi. And yes I am running it off an O2 cleaned first stage regulator to keep high pressure O2 away from the hull & the various > hardware down line from the regulator. > You can adjust the pressure above ambient out of some first stage regulators > by replacing the spring. I tried a system of air compensation that Karl Stanley > uses; he just takes the spring out of a first stage regulator & that gives him > ambient pressure. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 14/03/2018, at 8:49 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> I thought about the fact that the pressure to the inside of the sub would be increasing with depth after I sent the post. Are you also breaking down the HP to LP at the bottle outside the sub? Did you buy the regulator/flow meter you showed me? >> >> Rick >> >> >> >>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 9:13 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Rick, >>> as you say "above ambient" so at 350' depth you will have 130psi >>> coming out of the regulator plus another 175psi for the ambient depth. >>> EMT have this...https://www.emtmedicalco.com/GENTEC-OXYGEN-FLOWMETER-WITH-REGULATOR-0-15-LPM-CGA-870-OR-540-191M.htm >>> I bought a pressure regulator for inside the hull to deal with that, >>> however the click style paediatric regulators they have take a high inlet pressure >>> although I can't see any literature on this at EMT..... >>> https://www.emtmedicalco.com/PEDIATRIC-REGULATORS-0-4-LPM-CGA-870-8704.htm >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On 14/03/2018, at 6:53 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. >>>> I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters that can take the 150 psi in? >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 18:24:00 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:24:00 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: <20180313140715.B47E7F30@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20180313140715.B47E7F30@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <9C71B651-B0A0-4BA3-B863-00C2677898AF@yahoo.com> Brian, Rick, GL is saying O2 consumption is 15 l/h resting, 40 l/h working & 26 l/h average. (.43 litres per minute. ) Even my paediatric click regulator isn't fine enough by the look of it, it does 1/4 of a litre, (.25) then the next step is 1/2 (.5) You have got me rethinking this Rick. I might go with a flow meter so I can finely adjust it & stop a potentially noisy O2 add system turning on & off frequently. Brian your 0-8 litre regulator seems to have the same increments in the low range as my 0-4 litre regulator so you aren't loosing anything with it. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/03/2018, at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > My medical O2 regulator goes from 0 to 8 lpm , My scuba shop finally got my bottle filled ! They had lost a transitional fitting needed to fill the bottle so I've been waiting for about two weeks now. It's a good thing they got the part because there is literally no other place around who will fill it ! Don't ask me how or why they are so easy about filling the O2 but I checked every other dive shop within 100 miles and nobody would do it. Believe me I'm not asking any questions, just thanking them for my fill ;-) > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 10:39:44 -1000 > > Alan, > > So you have the second one you listed so you are bringing the HP 02 right up to that? > > Rick > > > > On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick, > just looked at my 0-4 LPM paedeatric click style oxygen meter & it says > "maximum pressure not to exceed 2600 psi." > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 8:13 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Rick, > as you say "above ambient" so at 350' depth you will have 130psi > coming out of the regulator plus another 175psi for the ambient depth. > EMT have this...https://www.emtmedicalco.com/GENTEC-OXYGEN-FLOWMETER-WITH-REGULATOR-0-15-LPM-CGA-870-OR-540-191M.htm > I bought a pressure regulator for inside the hull to deal with that, > however the click style paediatric regulators they have take a high inlet pressure > although I can't see any literature on this at EMT..... > https://www.emtmedicalco.com/PEDIATRIC-REGULATORS-0-4-LPM-CGA-870-8704.htm > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 6:53 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. > I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters that can take the 150 psi in? > > Rick > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 18:43:01 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 15:43:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters Message-ID: <20180313154301.B47E66DC@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 19:57:14 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:57:14 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: <20180313154301.B47E66DC@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20180313154301.B47E66DC@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <405E372A-879A-498F-9DFA-D178C7435159@yahoo.com> Brian, I can't see what it's maximum inlet pressure is, but on another site it is saying they are calibrated for an inlet pressure of 50psi. So would need a regulator set to output 50psi & be rated for the inlet pressure you want. I think those paediatric regulators have a 50psi output pressure so it should work putting it in line with your flow meter but it is a bit of a strange set up. I would have just gone with a normal regulator. See if you can find out more info on your flow regulator model. If you have a needle valve before your regulators to bypass them you can just turn that on & off if all else failed. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/03/2018, at 11:43 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > My plan was to go from my med regulator to my flow meter, My flow meter ( recommended from Cliff) has a range between 0 and 5 lpm. But I'm not really sure what the supply pressure for my flow meter is suppose to be. My O2 bottle is still sitting down at the dive shop , so as soon as I get it I'm going to test things out. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:24:00 +1300 > > Brian, Rick, > GL is saying O2 consumption is 15 l/h resting, 40 l/h working & 26 l/h average. > (.43 litres per minute. ) Even my paediatric click regulator isn't fine enough by the > look of it, it does 1/4 of a litre, (.25) then the next step is 1/2 (.5) > You have got me rethinking this Rick. I might go with a flow meter so I can > finely adjust it & stop a potentially noisy O2 add system turning on & off > frequently. > Brian your 0-8 litre regulator seems to have the same increments in the low > range as my 0-4 litre regulator so you aren't loosing anything with it. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > My medical O2 regulator goes from 0 to 8 lpm , My scuba shop finally got my bottle filled ! They had lost a transitional fitting needed to fill the bottle so I've been waiting for about two weeks now. It's a good thing they got the part because there is literally no other place around who will fill it ! Don't ask me how or why they are so easy about filling the O2 but I checked every other dive shop within 100 miles and nobody would do it. Believe me I'm not asking any questions, just thanking them for my fill ;-) > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 10:39:44 -1000 > > Alan, > > So you have the second one you listed so you are bringing the HP 02 right up to that? > > Rick > > > > On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick, > just looked at my 0-4 LPM paedeatric click style oxygen meter & it says > "maximum pressure not to exceed 2600 psi." > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 8:13 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Rick, > as you say "above ambient" so at 350' depth you will have 130psi > coming out of the regulator plus another 175psi for the ambient depth. > EMT have this...https://www.emtmedicalco.com/GENTEC-OXYGEN-FLOWMETER-WITH-REGULATOR-0-15-LPM-CGA-870-OR-540-191M.htm > I bought a pressure regulator for inside the hull to deal with that, > however the click style paediatric regulators they have take a high inlet pressure > although I can't see any literature on this at EMT..... > https://www.emtmedicalco.com/PEDIATRIC-REGULATORS-0-4-LPM-CGA-870-8704.htm > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 6:53 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. > I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters that can take the 150 psi in? > > Rick > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 21:08:50 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 18:08:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters Message-ID: <20180313180850.B47E2E1F@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 22:55:52 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 21:55:52 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: <20180313180850.B47E2E1F@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20180313180850.B47E2E1F@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: How an engineer controls the Oxygen level in a Psub Take HP O2 (2200 psig max) stored in external tank/tanks and bring this thru the hull using ?? tubing and have a hull isolation valve on the inside of the hull. Bring the HP O2 into a box using Swagelok fittings. In the box , use a pressure reducing regulator to drop the pressure to 5-10 psig. Feed this reduced pressure O2 into a 0-10 SLPM O2 combination mass controller /meter that you source from ebay. Control the O2mass rate into the boat by sending a 0-5 VDC control signal from either a potentiometer off a 5VDC regulated power supply or a PLC analog voltage output card. Put a Swagelok Vernier needle valve (SS-SS4-VH) in a bypass around the O2 mass controller for manual control in the event you loose power. Put a 0-3000 psig O2 pressure sensor to measure the pressure of the HP O2 on the tubing as it enters the box. Read the mass rate output signal (0-5VDC) of the O2 in SLPM from the combination mass controller /meter. Display this on a analog gage or PLC HMI. Put the mass controller input signal under the control of a PID loop with the set point being 20.95 mole percent O2. Measure the mole percent of O2 in the cabin as the process variable. Use an inexpensive plastic variable area meter (0-5 SLPM) on the LP O2 discharge as a backup sensor in case you loose power. This system will hold the O2 mole percent constant in the boat regardless of the size of the pilot or his/her O2 consumption rate and regardless of the cabin pressure and temperature in the boat. Lock out the PID loop if the hatch switch is open. Set up alarms for high and low O2 levels as per ABS. Set up alarm for low O2 tank pressure. In the same box install cabin pressure and temperature sensors, a relative humidity sensor, as well as O2 and CO2 mole percent sensors. After installing this box in your boat, do extensive shop dives by getting someone to volunteer to be the guinea pig with the hatch closed and data log the sensors from the box over a extend period of time say 10 hours. Tune the PID controller as needed until O2 level remains relatively constant. To improve system, add redundant sensors and add PLC ladder logic to detect bad sensors. Can also improve system by measuring the O2 mole percent in the inlet O2 gas stream to make sure it pure O2 and not Argon or some other gas. How non engineer controls the Oxygen level in a Psub When you feel light headed, surface, blow MBT and open hatch. After head clears, close hatch and resume dive. Cliff On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 8:08 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alan, > I would eventually like to do that bellows add system but I'm > not sure where I would get the tilt valve part of the system. Could that > be had from scuba mouth piece parts ? > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:57:14 +1300 > > Brian, > I can't see what it's maximum inlet pressure is, but on another site it is > saying they are calibrated for an inlet pressure of 50psi. So would need > a regulator set to output 50psi & be rated for the inlet pressure you want. > I think those paediatric regulators have a 50psi output pressure so it > should work putting it in line with your flow meter but it is a bit of a > strange > set up. I would have just gone with a normal regulator. See if you can > find out more info on your flow regulator model. > If you have a needle valve before your regulators to bypass them you can > just turn that on & off if all else failed. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 11:43 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > My plan was to go from my med regulator to my flow meter, My > flow meter ( recommended from Cliff) has a range between 0 and 5 lpm. But > I'm not really sure what the supply pressure for my flow meter is suppose > to be. My O2 bottle is still sitting down at the dive shop , so as soon as > I get it I'm going to test things out. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:24:00 +1300 > > Brian, Rick, > GL is saying O2 consumption is 15 l/h resting, 40 l/h working & 26 l/h > average. > (.43 litres per minute. ) Even my paediatric click regulator isn't fine > enough by the > look of it, it does 1/4 of a litre, (.25) then the next step is 1/2 (.5) > You have got me rethinking this Rick. I might go with a flow meter so I > can > finely adjust it & stop a potentially noisy O2 add system turning on & off > frequently. > Brian your 0-8 litre regulator seems to have the same increments in the low > range as my 0-4 litre regulator so you aren't loosing anything with it. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > My medical O2 regulator goes from 0 to 8 lpm , My scuba shop finally got > my bottle filled ! They had lost a transitional fitting needed to fill the > bottle so I've been waiting for about two weeks now. It's a good thing > they got the part because there is literally no other place around who will > fill it ! Don't ask me how or why they are so easy about filling the O2 > but I checked every other dive shop within 100 miles and nobody would do > it. Believe me I'm not asking any questions, just thanking them for my > fill ;-) > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 10:39:44 -1000 > > Alan, > > So you have the second one you listed so you are bringing the HP 02 right > up to that? > > Rick > > > > On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > just looked at my 0-4 LPM paedeatric click style oxygen meter & it says > "maximum pressure not to exceed 2600 psi." > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 8:13 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > as you say "above ambient" so at 350' depth you will have 130psi > coming out of the regulator plus another 175psi for the ambient depth. > EMT have this...https://www.emtmedicalco.com/GENTEC-OXYGEN-FLOWMETER-WITH- > REGULATOR-0-15-LPM-CGA-870-OR-540-191M.htm > I bought a pressure regulator for inside the hull to deal with that, > however the click style paediatric regulators they have take a high inlet > pressure > although I can't see any literature on this at EMT..... > https://www.emtmedicalco.com/PEDIATRIC-REGULATORS-0-4-LPM-CGA-870-8704.htm > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 6:53 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told > that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure > of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned > first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. > I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I > should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have > others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters > that can take the 150 psi in? > > Rick > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 13 22:58:22 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 15:58:22 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: <20180313180850.B47E2E1F@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20180313180850.B47E2E1F@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, I am not what Phil uses he did say he would sell his O2 add system. Using a second stage scuba valve sounds good. You could take the housing away & make up a mounting for it. Not sure of it's O2 computability, but if you are using low pressure it wouldn't be such a problem. Aussie Steve might have something he sells or can suggest. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 14/03/2018, at 2:08 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I would eventually like to do that bellows add system but I'm not sure where I would get the tilt valve part of the system. Could that be had from scuba mouth piece parts ? > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:57:14 +1300 > > Brian, > I can't see what it's maximum inlet pressure is, but on another site it is > saying they are calibrated for an inlet pressure of 50psi. So would need > a regulator set to output 50psi & be rated for the inlet pressure you want. > I think those paediatric regulators have a 50psi output pressure so it > should work putting it in line with your flow meter but it is a bit of a strange > set up. I would have just gone with a normal regulator. See if you can > find out more info on your flow regulator model. > If you have a needle valve before your regulators to bypass them you can > just turn that on & off if all else failed. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 11:43 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > My plan was to go from my med regulator to my flow meter, My flow meter ( recommended from Cliff) has a range between 0 and 5 lpm. But I'm not really sure what the supply pressure for my flow meter is suppose to be. My O2 bottle is still sitting down at the dive shop , so as soon as I get it I'm going to test things out. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:24:00 +1300 > > Brian, Rick, > GL is saying O2 consumption is 15 l/h resting, 40 l/h working & 26 l/h average. > (.43 litres per minute. ) Even my paediatric click regulator isn't fine enough by the > look of it, it does 1/4 of a litre, (.25) then the next step is 1/2 (.5) > You have got me rethinking this Rick. I might go with a flow meter so I can > finely adjust it & stop a potentially noisy O2 add system turning on & off > frequently. > Brian your 0-8 litre regulator seems to have the same increments in the low > range as my 0-4 litre regulator so you aren't loosing anything with it. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > My medical O2 regulator goes from 0 to 8 lpm , My scuba shop finally got my bottle filled ! They had lost a transitional fitting needed to fill the bottle so I've been waiting for about two weeks now. It's a good thing they got the part because there is literally no other place around who will fill it ! Don't ask me how or why they are so easy about filling the O2 but I checked every other dive shop within 100 miles and nobody would do it. Believe me I'm not asking any questions, just thanking them for my fill ;-) > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 10:39:44 -1000 > > Alan, > > So you have the second one you listed so you are bringing the HP 02 right up to that? > > Rick > > > > On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick, > just looked at my 0-4 LPM paedeatric click style oxygen meter & it says > "maximum pressure not to exceed 2600 psi." > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 8:13 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Rick, > as you say "above ambient" so at 350' depth you will have 130psi > coming out of the regulator plus another 175psi for the ambient depth. > EMT have this...https://www.emtmedicalco.com/GENTEC-OXYGEN-FLOWMETER-WITH-REGULATOR-0-15-LPM-CGA-870-OR-540-191M.htm > I bought a pressure regulator for inside the hull to deal with that, > however the click style paediatric regulators they have take a high inlet pressure > although I can't see any literature on this at EMT..... > https://www.emtmedicalco.com/PEDIATRIC-REGULATORS-0-4-LPM-CGA-870-8704.htm > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 6:53 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. > I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters that can take the 150 psi in? > > Rick > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 14 00:36:36 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 21:36:36 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters Message-ID: <20180313213636.B4794A96@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 14 21:32:04 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:32:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters Message-ID: <20180314183204.B4792159@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 14 22:50:05 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 15:50:05 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters In-Reply-To: <20180314183204.B4792159@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20180314183204.B4792159@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <39380560-7693-4E8A-ADCF-273E9AC3B43D@yahoo.com> Brian, if it is the paediatric click meter I would be surprised. The flow meter info said that it was calibrated on a 50 psi input. Not sure how much it would fluctuate if the input was less or more than that. I have done rough calculations by collapsing a plastic bag & flowing air in to that over a minute then measuring water into a similar plastic bag till I get roughly the same volume. That might give you an indication as to which one was more accurate. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 15/03/2018, at 2:32 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Been playing with my O2 tank and regulator and flow meter. On the one regulator I have the lowest setting is 0.5 LPM but it actually registers 1.0 LPM through the flow meter so that tells me that maybe those regulators are not entirely accurate. But I'm able to adjust it down to 0.5 LPM or lower or down to zero. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 15:58:22 +1300 > > Brian, > I am not what Phil uses he did say he would sell his O2 add system. > Using a second stage scuba valve sounds good. You could take the housing > away & make up a mounting for it. Not sure of it's O2 computability, but if > you are using low pressure it wouldn't be such a problem. > Aussie Steve might have something he sells or can suggest. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 2:08 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I would eventually like to do that bellows add system but I'm not sure where I would get the tilt valve part of the system. Could that be had from scuba mouth piece parts ? > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:57:14 +1300 > > Brian, > I can't see what it's maximum inlet pressure is, but on another site it is > saying they are calibrated for an inlet pressure of 50psi. So would need > a regulator set to output 50psi & be rated for the inlet pressure you want. > I think those paediatric regulators have a 50psi output pressure so it > should work putting it in line with your flow meter but it is a bit of a strange > set up. I would have just gone with a normal regulator. See if you can > find out more info on your flow regulator model. > If you have a needle valve before your regulators to bypass them you can > just turn that on & off if all else failed. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 11:43 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > My plan was to go from my med regulator to my flow meter, My flow meter ( recommended from Cliff) has a range between 0 and 5 lpm. But I'm not really sure what the supply pressure for my flow meter is suppose to be. My O2 bottle is still sitting down at the dive shop , so as soon as I get it I'm going to test things out. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:24:00 +1300 > > Brian, Rick, > GL is saying O2 consumption is 15 l/h resting, 40 l/h working & 26 l/h average. > (.43 litres per minute. ) Even my paediatric click regulator isn't fine enough by the > look of it, it does 1/4 of a litre, (.25) then the next step is 1/2 (.5) > You have got me rethinking this Rick. I might go with a flow meter so I can > finely adjust it & stop a potentially noisy O2 add system turning on & off > frequently. > Brian your 0-8 litre regulator seems to have the same increments in the low > range as my 0-4 litre regulator so you aren't loosing anything with it. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 10:07 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > My medical O2 regulator goes from 0 to 8 lpm , My scuba shop finally got my bottle filled ! They had lost a transitional fitting needed to fill the bottle so I've been waiting for about two weeks now. It's a good thing they got the part because there is literally no other place around who will fill it ! Don't ask me how or why they are so easy about filling the O2 but I checked every other dive shop within 100 miles and nobody would do it. Believe me I'm not asking any questions, just thanking them for my fill ;-) > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters > Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 10:39:44 -1000 > > Alan, > > So you have the second one you listed so you are bringing the HP 02 right up to that? > > Rick > > > > On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick, > just looked at my 0-4 LPM paedeatric click style oxygen meter & it says > "maximum pressure not to exceed 2600 psi." > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 8:13 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Rick, > as you say "above ambient" so at 350' depth you will have 130psi > coming out of the regulator plus another 175psi for the ambient depth. > EMT have this...https://www.emtmedicalco.com/GENTEC-OXYGEN-FLOWMETER-WITH-REGULATOR-0-15-LPM-CGA-870-OR-540-191M.htm > I bought a pressure regulator for inside the hull to deal with that, > however the click style paediatric regulators they have take a high inlet pressure > although I can't see any literature on this at EMT..... > https://www.emtmedicalco.com/PEDIATRIC-REGULATORS-0-4-LPM-CGA-870-8704.htm > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/03/2018, at 6:53 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Was looking into buying an 02 flow meter yesterday online and was told that the incoming pressure to the meter had a max incoming working pressure of 50 psi. My bottles will be on the outside and I have two 02 cleaned first stage regulators that will take them from HP to LP then into the sub. > I guess the average LP setting is around 150 psi + -above ambient? so I should be able to have a dive shop re set them down to 50 psi? What have others done that have the same scenario and wonder if there are flow meters that can take the 150 psi in? > > Rick > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 15 11:50:57 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 15:50:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] regulator References: <1382252703.1227896.1521129057417.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382252703.1227896.1521129057417@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,When you dove R-300 to 150 feet with your new regulator setup, did you do a rapid ascent to see if the regulator could dump the over pressure air and keep up. ?I have a regulator for my arm on the way that is the same type as yours, but I have been thinking about the speed it can dump air. ?With the trolling motors it is not so critical because the seal will act as a relief valve. ?In the case of my actuators, the o-ring seals are very good. ?I expect it could cause a problem if the regulator can't keep up. ?Do you think I should instal a relief valve? ?I have a small relief valve from a compressor tank that could be modified for the task. ?By the way, you should be proud of me, I am installing a speed control on my vertical thrusters. ?Another electric part that could fail LOL.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 15 11:58:51 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 15:58:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] depth gauge References: <1403881025.1238712.1521129531441.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1403881025.1238712.1521129531441@mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, recently there was talk about a depth gauge. ?Jon mentioned the accuracy being being a percentage of depth. ?In an effort to save battery life, I am thinking I should add a digital depth or pressure gauge. ?My feeling is, if it is accurate in terms of change of depth it would be valuable to have. ?The question is, is the accuracy short fall a mater of actual depth or change of depth or both? ?I don't care about actual depth, I just care about change of depth.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 15 12:29:34 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 16:29:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] depth gauge In-Reply-To: <1403881025.1238712.1521129531441@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1403881025.1238712.1521129531441.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1403881025.1238712.1521129531441@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <557994184.1253523.1521131374181@mail.yahoo.com> For a voltage or current output from a sensor, the change of depth is going to be an issue of resolution that will be determined by the ADC.? From that perspective change of depth will be as accurate as the ADC can provide, but "repeatability" may come into play which may affect whether each 1 foot of depth is sensed as an actual 1 foot of depth.? There may be some variability but I think in general, the change of depth would be accurate for all intents and purposes. Sean may care to comment. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 12:01 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] depth gauge Hi all, recently there was talk about a depth gauge. ?Jon mentioned the accuracy being being a percentage of depth. ?In an effort to save battery life, I am thinking I should add a digital depth or pressure gauge. ?My feeling is, if it is accurate in terms of change of depth it would be valuable to have. ?The question is, is the accuracy short fall a mater of actual depth or change of depth or both? ?I don't care about actual depth, I just care about change of depth.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 15 13:36:47 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 17:36:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] depth gauge In-Reply-To: <557994184.1253523.1521131374181@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1403881025.1238712.1521129531441.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1403881025.1238712.1521129531441@mail.yahoo.com> <557994184.1253523.1521131374181@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <361143802.1283572.1521135407402@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks' Jon, ?it really doesn't even matter if the one for change is actually one foot. ?I suppose what I want is an accurate (within reason) ?indication if the sub is moving up or down or sitting still.Hank On Thursday, March 15, 2018, 10:29:48 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: For a voltage or current output from a sensor, the change of depth is going to be an issue of resolution that will be determined by the ADC.? From that perspective change of depth will be as accurate as the ADC can provide, but "repeatability" may come into play which may affect whether each 1 foot of depth is sensed as an actual 1 foot of depth.? There may be some variability but I think in general, the change of depth would be accurate for all intents and purposes. Sean may care to comment. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 12:01 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] depth gauge Hi all, recently there was talk about a depth gauge. ?Jon mentioned the accuracy being being a percentage of depth. ?In an effort to save battery life, I am thinking I should add a digital depth or pressure gauge. ?My feeling is, if it is accurate in terms of change of depth it would be valuable to have. ?The question is, is the accuracy short fall a mater of actual depth or change of depth or both? ?I don't care about actual depth, I just care about change of depth.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 15 15:55:47 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 08:55:47 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] regulator In-Reply-To: <1382252703.1227896.1521129057417@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1382252703.1227896.1521129057417.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1382252703.1227896.1521129057417@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, my two pennies worth... On a video I saw of Cliff ascending using the new set up, there was a lot of air coming out, & I believe he has all 4 thrusters compensated off the one relieving regulator. There would be quite a lot more air volume in his thrusters than in your manipulator. I am not sure what pressure the relieving part of the regulator is set to above the setting of the regulator. You could change the relieving regulator spring to change this. You could also set up an experiment to see what volume of air you could send through the orifice of the relieving part at certain pressures. Block the inlet port of the regulator & put pressure in to the outlet port so it goes out the relieving orifice. Alternatively If you knew the diameter of the relieving orifice someone like Hugh could probably tell you what volume would flow out at various pressures. Also with your deeper diving the air's volume change is less the deeper you go & most in the last 33ft of your ascent, so just do calculations based on the volume doubling over the last 33ft. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 16/03/2018, at 4:50 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > When you dove R-300 to 150 feet with your new regulator setup, did you do a rapid ascent to see if the regulator could dump the over pressure air and keep up. I have a regulator for my arm on the way that is the same type as yours, but I have been thinking about the speed it can dump air. With the trolling motors it is not so critical because the seal will act as a relief valve. In the case of my actuators, the o-ring seals are very good. I expect it could cause a problem if the regulator can't keep up. Do you think I should instal a relief valve? I have a small relief valve from a compressor tank that could be modified for the task. > By the way, you should be proud of me, I am installing a speed control on my vertical thrusters. Another electric part that could fail LOL. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 15 16:53:59 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 15:53:59 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] regulator In-Reply-To: <1382252703.1227896.1521129057417@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1382252703.1227896.1521129057417.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1382252703.1227896.1521129057417@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I did not purposely try a fast ascent with the intent of seeing of the pressure reducing/releaving regulator could dump the air fast enough. All I can say is I have not any issues yet and yes the MM 101 thrusters have double shaft lip seals orient to expect external pressure. As such, if the regulator could not keep up it would vent through these shaft seals. To date I have not observed this happening. To me I would hold off putting a pressure relief valve on this until you actually see an issue in the spirit of KISS. The volume of air in the actuators is small relative to the 4 MK-thruster that I have so the it is not a big volume of air to vent. Glad to hear you put a variable speed control on your vertical thrusters. I got to get you used to more electronics in your boat! Best Regards On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 10:50 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > When you dove R-300 to 150 feet with your new regulator setup, did you do > a rapid ascent to see if the regulator could dump the over pressure air and > keep up. I have a regulator for my arm on the way that is the same type as > yours, but I have been thinking about the speed it can dump air. With the > trolling motors it is not so critical because the seal will act as a relief > valve. In the case of my actuators, the o-ring seals are very good. I > expect it could cause a problem if the regulator can't keep up. Do you > think I should instal a relief valve? I have a small relief valve from a > compressor tank that could be modified for the task. > By the way, you should be proud of me, I am installing a speed control on > my vertical thrusters. Another electric part that could fail LOL. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 15 17:07:20 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 21:07:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] depth gauge In-Reply-To: <361143802.1283572.1521135407402@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1403881025.1238712.1521129531441.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1403881025.1238712.1521129531441@mail.yahoo.com> <557994184.1253523.1521131374181@mail.yahoo.com> <361143802.1283572.1521135407402@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1091129926.1443759.1521148040089@mail.yahoo.com> Yes, that you will get.? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] depth gauge Thanks' Jon, ?it really doesn't even matter if the one for change is actually one foot. ?I suppose what I want is an accurate (within reason) ?indication if the sub is moving up or down or sitting still.Hank On Thursday, March 15, 2018, 10:29:48 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: For a voltage or current output from a sensor, the change of depth is going to be an issue of resolution that will be determined by the ADC.? From that perspective change of depth will be as accurate as the ADC can provide, but "repeatability" may come into play which may affect whether each 1 foot of depth is sensed as an actual 1 foot of depth.? There may be some variability but I think in general, the change of depth would be accurate for all intents and purposes. Sean may care to comment. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 12:01 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] depth gauge Hi all, recently there was talk about a depth gauge. ?Jon mentioned the accuracy being being a percentage of depth. ?In an effort to save battery life, I am thinking I should add a digital depth or pressure gauge. ?My feeling is, if it is accurate in terms of change of depth it would be valuable to have. ?The question is, is the accuracy short fall a mater of actual depth or change of depth or both? ?I don't care about actual depth, I just care about change of depth.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 15 17:33:32 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 21:33:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] regulator In-Reply-To: References: <1382252703.1227896.1521129057417.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1382252703.1227896.1521129057417@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <157484978.1444169.1521149612615@mail.yahoo.com> Okay, I will hold off, those are good points. ?And yes with you and Alan ganging up on me, I might have more electronics.Baby stepsHank On Thursday, March 15, 2018, 2:54:19 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I did not purposely try a fast ascent with the intent of seeing of the pressure reducing/releaving regulator could dump the air fast enough.? All I can say is I have not any issues yet and yes the MM 101 thrusters have double shaft lip seals orient to expect external pressure.? As such, if the regulator could not keep up it would vent through these shaft seals.? To date I have not observed this happening.? To me I would hold off putting a pressure relief valve on this until you actually see an issue in the spirit of KISS.? The volume of air in the actuators is small relative to the 4 MK-thruster that I have so the it is not a big volume of air to vent. Glad to hear you put a variable speed control on your vertical thrusters.? I got to get you used to more electronics in your boat! Best Regards On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 10:50 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,When you dove R-300 to 150 feet with your new regulator setup, did you do a rapid ascent to see if the regulator could dump the over pressure air and keep up.? I have a regulator for my arm on the way that is the same type as yours, but I have been thinking about the speed it can dump air.? With the trolling motors it is not so critical because the seal will act as a relief valve.? In the case of my actuators, the o-ring seals are very good.? I expect it could cause a problem if the regulator can't keep up.? Do you think I should instal a relief valve?? I have a small relief valve from a compressor tank that could be modified for the task. ?By the way, you should be proud of me, I am installing a speed control on my vertical thrusters.? Another electric part that could fail LOL.Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 15 21:51:52 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 18:51:52 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] flow meters Message-ID: <20180315185152.B479C68B@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 16 15:15:53 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:15:53 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? Message-ID: <1012CEBA-389A-46BD-A388-CD70558105F8@geekeasy.com> Hey everyone, I'm friends with Shanee and am planning to help her with her sub. In California, there are currently no licenses required to operate a boat. The only thing required is that the vessel be registered with either the Coast Guard or the Department of Motor Vehicles. Can you guys please let us know if there is anything different required to own and operate a submarine? Thanks! -Adam From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 16 15:33:15 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 15:33:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? In-Reply-To: <1012CEBA-389A-46BD-A388-CD70558105F8@geekeasy.com> References: <1012CEBA-389A-46BD-A388-CD70558105F8@geekeasy.com> Message-ID: Required qualifications to operate a submersible are, in general, the same as those required to operate a surface vessel of identical measured tonnage. Namely, the vessel will either need to be licensed or registered in accordance with its power (with under 10 HP skirting both requirements - incidentally, this is why 9.9 HP outboards are a thing), and with the operator meeting the same requirements as a surface vessel operator in your jurisdiction. I am unfamiliar with the specific requirements of California in that regard. Your state may require marine specific qualification, or a driver's license, or nothing. In Canada, at minimum that is a PCOC (pleasure craft operator card) - the same card that allows one to operate runabouts and jet skis, etc. Commercially, operators are subject to the same certification requirements as masters of surface vessels of identical tonnage, with the exception that a commercial diving qualification of any type (commercial SCUBA, or unrestricted or restricted surface supplied diver) is necessary for a submersible vessel endorsement on the equivalent master certificate. The vessel must also be in compliance with markings, lights, shapes, sound signals and required safety equipment as required for the vessel size by the International Regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea. The requirements for small craft are not onerous. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 16, 2018, 12:15, Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hey everyone, > > I'm friends with Shanee and am planning to help her with her sub. > > In California, there are currently no licenses required to operate a boat. > > The only thing required is that the vessel be registered with either the Coast Guard or the Department of Motor Vehicles. > > Can you guys please let us know if there is anything different required to own and operate a submarine? > > Thanks! > -Adam > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 16 15:57:16 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:57:16 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? Message-ID: <1172694030.15183.1521230236286@wamui-koala.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi Adam, Shanee, are you folks in Santa Cruz? If so, I'm a little up the cost in Pacifica. We should have a Bay Area submersibles get together. Cheers, Ian. (I'm restoring a K250 - very slowly...) -----Original Message----- >From: Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Mar 16, 2018 12:15 PM >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? > >Hey everyone, > >I'm friends with Shanee and am planning to help her with her sub. > >In California, there are currently no licenses required to operate a boat. > >The only thing required is that the vessel be registered with either the Coast Guard or the Department of Motor Vehicles. > >Can you guys please let us know if there is anything different required to own and operate a submarine? > >Thanks! >-Adam >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 16 16:04:27 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 13:04:27 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? In-Reply-To: <1172694030.15183.1521230236286@wamui-koala.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1172694030.15183.1521230236286@wamui-koala.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Ian, Nice! It's great to have someone so close by. We're actually in Oakland, which for everyone elsewhere, is even closer than Santa Cruz. The sub is supposed to arrive on the 23rd. Do you want to come up then or shortly afterward and take a look? -Adam > On Mar 16, 2018, at 12:57 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Adam, Shanee, > > are you folks in Santa Cruz? > If so, I'm a little up the cost in Pacifica. > > We should have a Bay Area submersibles get together. > > Cheers, > Ian. > (I'm restoring a K250 - very slowly...) > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Mar 16, 2018 12:15 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? >> >> Hey everyone, >> >> I'm friends with Shanee and am planning to help her with her sub. >> >> In California, there are currently no licenses required to operate a boat. >> >> The only thing required is that the vessel be registered with either the Coast Guard or the Department of Motor Vehicles. >> >> Can you guys please let us know if there is anything different required to own and operate a submarine? >> >> Thanks! >> -Adam >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 16 16:26:14 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 09:26:14 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator Message-ID: Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; would this make it a lot less "spongey". You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. Has this been done before? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 16 16:35:46 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 13:35:46 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? Message-ID: <1806966955.17381.1521232546641@wamui-koala.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi Adam, that sounds great! I'd definitely like to take a look. Ping me off list iroxix.netcom.com and we'll arrange something. Thanks! Ian. -----Original Message----- >From: Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: Mar 16, 2018 1:04 PM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? > >Ian, > >Nice! It's great to have someone so close by. We're actually in Oakland, which for everyone elsewhere, is even closer than Santa Cruz. > >The sub is supposed to arrive on the 23rd. > >Do you want to come up then or shortly afterward and take a look? > >-Adam > >> On Mar 16, 2018, at 12:57 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Adam, Shanee, >> >> are you folks in Santa Cruz? >> If so, I'm a little up the cost in Pacifica. >> >> We should have a Bay Area submersibles get together. >> >> Cheers, >> Ian. >> (I'm restoring a K250 - very slowly...) >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles >>> Sent: Mar 16, 2018 12:15 PM >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? >>> >>> Hey everyone, >>> >>> I'm friends with Shanee and am planning to help her with her sub. >>> >>> In California, there are currently no licenses required to operate a boat. >>> >>> The only thing required is that the vessel be registered with either the Coast Guard or the Department of Motor Vehicles. >>> >>> Can you guys please let us know if there is anything different required to own and operate a submarine? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> -Adam >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 16 19:44:19 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 16:44:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? Message-ID: <20180316164419.B47987C4@m0117164.ppops.net> Adam, I am in Ventura CA, pretty close as well ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 13:04:27 -0700 Ian, Nice! It's great to have someone so close by. We're actually in Oakland, which for everyone elsewhere, is even closer than Santa Cruz. The sub is supposed to arrive on the 23rd. Do you want to come up then or shortly afterward and take a look? -Adam > On Mar 16, 2018, at 12:57 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Adam, Shanee, > > are you folks in Santa Cruz? > If so, I'm a little up the cost in Pacifica. > > We should have a Bay Area submersibles get together. > > Cheers, > Ian. > (I'm restoring a K250 - very slowly...) > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Mar 16, 2018 12:15 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? >> >> Hey everyone, >> >> I'm friends with Shanee and am planning to help her with her sub. >> >> In California, there are currently no licenses required to operate a boat. >> >> The only thing required is that the vessel be registered with either the Coast Guard or the Department of Motor Vehicles. >> >> Can you guys please let us know if there is anything different required to own and operate a submarine? >> >> Thanks! >> -Adam >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 16 22:58:04 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 13:58:04 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Alan, I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :). That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. Cheers, Steve Fordyce On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. > Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". > If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something > like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the > piston; > would this make it a lot less "spongey". > You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. > It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the > manipulator > every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast > tank. > Has this been done before? > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 17 05:54:01 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 22:54:01 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> Thanks Steve, I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control over the flow. I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics might be a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well in oil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement & an overpressure. Can always re-look at them. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. > > Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. > > I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :). That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > >> On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. >> Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". >> If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something >> like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; >> would this make it a lot less "spongey". >> You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. >> It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator >> every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. >> Has this been done before? >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 17 08:05:45 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 12:05:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> References: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I did some experimenting with air cylinders and started testing joints with mechanical resistance to reduce or stop the bounce. ?I made up disks that went between the arm joints that could be tensioned to act like brake disks. ?Kinda like a motorcycle clutch. ?This does work to an extent but counterproductive from an energy conservation point of view.With your knowledge of brushless motors and controlling them, it would seem your direction should be to modify a Lenco actuator by removing the motor and replacing it with a brushless motor to oil fill it. ? There is one small challenge thought, and that is to relieve the oil trapped behind the threaded rod. ?The threaded rod spins inside a fixed nut with very tight tolerance. ?the tight tolerance may not let the oil flow when a void is created by the rod extending. ?I started to drill holes in the ss rod to create an oil passage way but stopped for fear of creating a bigger problem thus holding up the project. ?If you want to collaborate on making an oil filled actuator by converting a Lenco actuator, I would be in.If your concern with these actuators is the short stroke, don't be. ?The arm can be designed with stroke multipliers, that is already in my plan for the next generation arm.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 3:54:24 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Steve,I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control overthe flow.I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics mightbe a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use?brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well inoil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement &an overpressure. Can always re-look at them.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan,I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :).? That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. Cheers,Steve Fordyce On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; would this make it a lot less "spongey". You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. Has this been done before? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 17 10:53:21 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 03:53:21 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> References: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9E0A721F-B9C6-453D-BEB8-F0DFD2D99377@yahoo.com> Hank, thanks for the advice on the pneumatics. Several years ago I was looking for replacement gears for the lenco to speed up the travel on one of the longer stroked models. Looking at the diagram below, oil could move down the spiral of the threaded rod, into the ram. As the ram moved in and out oil could follow it down this path. However on the diagram there looks to be a circular disc with an O ring seal at the head of the threaded rod, this would need to be drilled through. If you could attach a hose fitting where the wires come out you could run oil & wires out through a hose. Put a T on the hose for the wires to come out & continue the other branch to a compensator. I had liked your idea of a pneumatic cylinder with motor & planetary gear box in it, but as you found, it could be a lot of mucking about when there is an off the shelf item. I have drawings for an oil compensator & there is not much to them. Replacing the motor with brushless could be a hasle & it seems quite an expence buying a Lenco actuator & butchering it. I will have another Google & think about things. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/03/2018, at 1:05 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I did some experimenting with air cylinders and started testing joints with mechanical resistance to reduce or stop the bounce. I made up disks that went between the arm joints that could be tensioned to act like brake disks. Kinda like a motorcycle clutch. This does work to an extent but counterproductive from an energy conservation point of view. > With your knowledge of brushless motors and controlling them, it would seem your direction should be to modify a Lenco actuator by removing the motor and replacing it with a brushless motor to oil fill it. There is one small challenge thought, and that is to relieve the oil trapped behind the threaded rod. The threaded rod spins inside a fixed nut with very tight tolerance. the tight tolerance may not let the oil flow when a void is created by the rod extending. I started to drill holes in the ss rod to create an oil passage way but stopped for fear of creating a bigger problem thus holding up the project. > If you want to collaborate on making an oil filled actuator by converting a Lenco actuator, I would be in. > If your concern with these actuators is the short stroke, don't be. The arm can be designed with stroke multipliers, that is already in my plan for the next generation arm. > Hank > > > On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 3:54:24 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Steve, > I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control over > the flow. > I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics might > be a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use > brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well in > oil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement & > an overpressure. Can always re-look at them. > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Alan, >> I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. >> >> Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. >> >> I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :). That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> >> On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. >> Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". >> If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something >> like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; >> would this make it a lot less "spongey". >> You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. >> It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator >> every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. >> Has this been done before? >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 165207 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 17 12:19:32 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 09:19:32 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? In-Reply-To: <20180316164419.B47987C4@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20180316164419.B47987C4@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <175C3879-3AE9-496B-B7EF-9775083DB83E@geekeasy.com> Brian, it's nice to meet you too. We're brand new to this. Our sub hasn't even arrived yet. But if we're welcome, we were contemplating heading up to Lake Tahoe in June to meet everyone. Cheers, -Adam > On Mar 16, 2018, at 4:44 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Adam, > I am in Ventura CA, pretty close as well ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 13:04:27 -0700 > > Ian, > > Nice! It's great to have someone so close by. We're actually in Oakland, which for everyone elsewhere, is even closer than Santa Cruz. > > The sub is supposed to arrive on the 23rd. > > Do you want to come up then or shortly afterward and take a look? > > -Adam > >> On Mar 16, 2018, at 12:57 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Adam, Shanee, >> >> are you folks in Santa Cruz? >> If so, I'm a little up the cost in Pacifica. >> >> We should have a Bay Area submersibles get together. >> >> Cheers, >> Ian. >> (I'm restoring a K250 - very slowly...) >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles >>> Sent: Mar 16, 2018 12:15 PM >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Licenses for Submarines? >>> >>> Hey everyone, >>> >>> I'm friends with Shanee and am planning to help her with her sub. >>> >>> In California, there are currently no licenses required to operate a boat. >>> >>> The only thing required is that the vessel be registered with either the Coast Guard or the Department of Motor Vehicles. >>> >>> Can you guys please let us know if there is anything different required to own and operate a submarine? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> -Adam >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 17 13:54:51 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 17:54:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: <9E0A721F-B9C6-453D-BEB8-F0DFD2D99377@yahoo.com> References: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> <9E0A721F-B9C6-453D-BEB8-F0DFD2D99377@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1104394580.2449225.1521309291929@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, the picture is deceiving, at the base of the gear set there is a bushing to support the rotating shaft and I had to drill a air passage in that area. ?The ss rod is hollow and the oil can not get in and out of that void easily.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 8:53:53 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,thanks for the advice on the pneumatics.Several years ago I was looking for replacement gears for the lenco tospeed up the travel on one of the longer stroked models.?Looking at the diagram below, oil could move down the spiral of the?threaded rod, into the ram. As the ram moved in and out oil could followit down this path. However on the diagram there looks to be a circular discwith an O ring seal at the head of the threaded rod, this would need tobe drilled through.?If you could attach a hose fitting where the wires comeout you could run oil & wires out through a hose. Put a T on the hose forthe wires to come out & continue the other branch to a compensator.? ?I had liked your idea of a pneumatic cylinder with motor & planetarygear box in it, but as you found, it could be a lot of mucking about whenthere is an off the shelf item.I have drawings for an oil compensator & there is not much to them.Replacing the motor with brushless could be a hasle & it seems quite anexpence buying a Lenco actuator & butchering it.I will have another Google & think about things.Alan Sent from my iPad On 18/03/2018, at 1:05 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I did some experimenting with air cylinders and started testing joints with mechanical resistance to reduce or stop the bounce. ?I made up disks that went between the arm joints that could be tensioned to act like brake disks. ?Kinda like a motorcycle clutch. ?This does work to an extent but counterproductive from an energy conservation point of view.With your knowledge of brushless motors and controlling them, it would seem your direction should be to modify a Lenco actuator by removing the motor and replacing it with a brushless motor to oil fill it. ? There is one small challenge thought, and that is to relieve the oil trapped behind the threaded rod. ?The threaded rod spins inside a fixed nut with very tight tolerance. ?the tight tolerance may not let the oil flow when a void is created by the rod extending. ?I started to drill holes in the ss rod to create an oil passage way but stopped for fear of creating a bigger problem thus holding up the project. ?If you want to collaborate on making an oil filled actuator by converting a Lenco actuator, I would be in.If your concern with these actuators is the short stroke, don't be. ?The arm can be designed with stroke multipliers, that is already in my plan for the next generation arm.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 3:54:24 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Steve,I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control overthe flow.I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics mightbe a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use?brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well inoil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement &an overpressure. Can always re-look at them.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan,I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :).? That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. Cheers,Steve Fordyce On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; would this make it a lot less "spongey". You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. Has this been done before? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 165207 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 17 14:41:09 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 07:41:09 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: <1104394580.2449225.1521309291929@mail.yahoo.com> References: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> <9E0A721F-B9C6-453D-BEB8-F0DFD2D99377@yahoo.com> <1104394580.2449225.1521309291929@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <720017AC-F8EE-48FE-A8DF-57C13E2B2D8C@yahoo.com> Hank, I am thinking we could just compensate a motor with gear head & have the threaded rod stainless & exposed to the water. Again I will google & see what I can find. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/03/2018, at 6:54 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, the picture is deceiving, at the base of the gear set there is a bushing to support the rotating shaft and I had to drill a air passage in that area. The ss rod is hollow and the oil can not get in and out of that void easily. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 8:53:53 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > thanks for the advice on the pneumatics. > Several years ago I was looking for replacement gears for the lenco to > speed up the travel on one of the longer stroked models. > Looking at the diagram below, oil could move down the spiral of the > threaded rod, into the ram. As the ram moved in and out oil could follow > it down this path. However on the diagram there looks to be a circular disc > with an O ring seal at the head of the threaded rod, this would need to > be drilled through. > If you could attach a hose fitting where the wires come > out you could run oil & wires out through a hose. Put a T on the hose for > the wires to come out & continue the other branch to a compensator. > I had liked your idea of a pneumatic cylinder with motor & planetary > gear box in it, but as you found, it could be a lot of mucking about when > there is an off the shelf item. > I have drawings for an oil compensator & there is not much to them. > Replacing the motor with brushless could be a hasle & it seems quite an > expence buying a Lenco actuator & butchering it. > I will have another Google & think about things. > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 18/03/2018, at 1:05 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> I did some experimenting with air cylinders and started testing joints with mechanical resistance to reduce or stop the bounce. I made up disks that went between the arm joints that could be tensioned to act like brake disks. Kinda like a motorcycle clutch. This does work to an extent but counterproductive from an energy conservation point of view. >> With your knowledge of brushless motors and controlling them, it would seem your direction should be to modify a Lenco actuator by removing the motor and replacing it with a brushless motor to oil fill it. There is one small challenge thought, and that is to relieve the oil trapped behind the threaded rod. The threaded rod spins inside a fixed nut with very tight tolerance. the tight tolerance may not let the oil flow when a void is created by the rod extending. I started to drill holes in the ss rod to create an oil passage way but stopped for fear of creating a bigger problem thus holding up the project. >> If you want to collaborate on making an oil filled actuator by converting a Lenco actuator, I would be in. >> If your concern with these actuators is the short stroke, don't be. The arm can be designed with stroke multipliers, that is already in my plan for the next generation arm. >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 3:54:24 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Steve, >> I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control over >> the flow. >> I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics might >> be a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use >> brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well in >> oil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement & >> an overpressure. Can always re-look at them. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. >>> >>> Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. >>> >>> I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :). That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve Fordyce >>> >>> On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. >>> Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". >>> If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something >>> like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; >>> would this make it a lot less "spongey". >>> You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. >>> It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator >>> every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. >>> Has this been done before? >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 17 15:42:04 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 19:42:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: <1104394580.2449225.1521309291929@mail.yahoo.com> References: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> <9E0A721F-B9C6-453D-BEB8-F0DFD2D99377@yahoo.com> <1104394580.2449225.1521309291929@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1514673035.2478333.1521315724563@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, the motor housing is not sealed from the shaft housing.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 11:55:19 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, the picture is deceiving, at the base of the gear set there is a bushing to support the rotating shaft and I had to drill a air passage in that area. ?The ss rod is hollow and the oil can not get in and out of that void easily.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 8:53:53 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,thanks for the advice on the pneumatics.Several years ago I was looking for replacement gears for the lenco tospeed up the travel on one of the longer stroked models.?Looking at the diagram below, oil could move down the spiral of the?threaded rod, into the ram. As the ram moved in and out oil could followit down this path. However on the diagram there looks to be a circular discwith an O ring seal at the head of the threaded rod, this would need tobe drilled through.?If you could attach a hose fitting where the wires comeout you could run oil & wires out through a hose. Put a T on the hose forthe wires to come out & continue the other branch to a compensator.? ?I had liked your idea of a pneumatic cylinder with motor & planetarygear box in it, but as you found, it could be a lot of mucking about whenthere is an off the shelf item.I have drawings for an oil compensator & there is not much to them.Replacing the motor with brushless could be a hasle & it seems quite anexpence buying a Lenco actuator & butchering it.I will have another Google & think about things.Alan Sent from my iPad On 18/03/2018, at 1:05 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I did some experimenting with air cylinders and started testing joints with mechanical resistance to reduce or stop the bounce. ?I made up disks that went between the arm joints that could be tensioned to act like brake disks. ?Kinda like a motorcycle clutch. ?This does work to an extent but counterproductive from an energy conservation point of view.With your knowledge of brushless motors and controlling them, it would seem your direction should be to modify a Lenco actuator by removing the motor and replacing it with a brushless motor to oil fill it. ? There is one small challenge thought, and that is to relieve the oil trapped behind the threaded rod. ?The threaded rod spins inside a fixed nut with very tight tolerance. ?the tight tolerance may not let the oil flow when a void is created by the rod extending. ?I started to drill holes in the ss rod to create an oil passage way but stopped for fear of creating a bigger problem thus holding up the project. ?If you want to collaborate on making an oil filled actuator by converting a Lenco actuator, I would be in.If your concern with these actuators is the short stroke, don't be. ?The arm can be designed with stroke multipliers, that is already in my plan for the next generation arm.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 3:54:24 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Steve,I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control overthe flow.I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics mightbe a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use?brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well inoil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement &an overpressure. Can always re-look at them.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan,I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :).? That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. Cheers,Steve Fordyce On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; would this make it a lot less "spongey". You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. Has this been done before? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 165207 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 17 16:04:08 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 09:04:08 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: <1514673035.2478333.1521315724563@mail.yahoo.com> References: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> <9E0A721F-B9C6-453D-BEB8-F0DFD2D99377@yahoo.com> <1104394580.2449225.1521309291929@mail.yahoo.com> <1514673035.2478333.1521315724563@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7E8201E0-A668-4DF7-BA18-47F86392039A@yahoo.com> Hank, I am not thinking of the Lenco actuator as they are reasonably expensive, especially if you are going to change motors & modify them. I was thinking of buying a brushless motor with planetary gear head & oil compensating that & having an open frame that the threaded rod & piston are fixed in. When I say "open frame" you would need to stop any large bits of muck getting jammed in the mechanism. There are motor controllers that you can get position feed back from to limit the stroke in both directions. You can also set a limit on the amps so you can't burn the motor out under load. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, the motor housing is not sealed from the shaft housing. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 11:55:19 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alan, the picture is deceiving, at the base of the gear set there is a bushing to support the rotating shaft and I had to drill a air passage in that area. The ss rod is hollow and the oil can not get in and out of that void easily. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 8:53:53 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > thanks for the advice on the pneumatics. > Several years ago I was looking for replacement gears for the lenco to > speed up the travel on one of the longer stroked models. > Looking at the diagram below, oil could move down the spiral of the > threaded rod, into the ram. As the ram moved in and out oil could follow > it down this path. However on the diagram there looks to be a circular disc > with an O ring seal at the head of the threaded rod, this would need to > be drilled through. > If you could attach a hose fitting where the wires come > out you could run oil & wires out through a hose. Put a T on the hose for > the wires to come out & continue the other branch to a compensator. > I had liked your idea of a pneumatic cylinder with motor & planetary > gear box in it, but as you found, it could be a lot of mucking about when > there is an off the shelf item. > I have drawings for an oil compensator & there is not much to them. > Replacing the motor with brushless could be a hasle & it seems quite an > expence buying a Lenco actuator & butchering it. > I will have another Google & think about things. > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 18/03/2018, at 1:05 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> I did some experimenting with air cylinders and started testing joints with mechanical resistance to reduce or stop the bounce. I made up disks that went between the arm joints that could be tensioned to act like brake disks. Kinda like a motorcycle clutch. This does work to an extent but counterproductive from an energy conservation point of view. >> With your knowledge of brushless motors and controlling them, it would seem your direction should be to modify a Lenco actuator by removing the motor and replacing it with a brushless motor to oil fill it. There is one small challenge thought, and that is to relieve the oil trapped behind the threaded rod. The threaded rod spins inside a fixed nut with very tight tolerance. the tight tolerance may not let the oil flow when a void is created by the rod extending. I started to drill holes in the ss rod to create an oil passage way but stopped for fear of creating a bigger problem thus holding up the project. >> If you want to collaborate on making an oil filled actuator by converting a Lenco actuator, I would be in. >> If your concern with these actuators is the short stroke, don't be. The arm can be designed with stroke multipliers, that is already in my plan for the next generation arm. >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 3:54:24 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Steve, >> I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control over >> the flow. >> I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics might >> be a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use >> brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well in >> oil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement & >> an overpressure. Can always re-look at them. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. >>> >>> Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. >>> >>> I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :). That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve Fordyce >>> >>> On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. >>> Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". >>> If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something >>> like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; >>> would this make it a lot less "spongey". >>> You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. >>> It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator >>> every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. >>> Has this been done before? >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 17 16:13:43 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 20:13:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: <1514673035.2478333.1521315724563@mail.yahoo.com> References: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> <9E0A721F-B9C6-453D-BEB8-F0DFD2D99377@yahoo.com> <1104394580.2449225.1521309291929@mail.yahoo.com> <1514673035.2478333.1521315724563@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <237684697.2499930.1521317623912@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, ?that will work, and could be cheaper. ?One nice thing with the Lenco actuator, no limit switching. ?The motor freewheels when it reaches the end of the stroke. ?What do you have against air compensating Lenco's ? ?simple, cheap, robust, available, etc....Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 1:42:32 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, the motor housing is not sealed from the shaft housing.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 11:55:19 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, the picture is deceiving, at the base of the gear set there is a bushing to support the rotating shaft and I had to drill a air passage in that area. ?The ss rod is hollow and the oil can not get in and out of that void easily.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 8:53:53 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,thanks for the advice on the pneumatics.Several years ago I was looking for replacement gears for the lenco tospeed up the travel on one of the longer stroked models.?Looking at the diagram below, oil could move down the spiral of the?threaded rod, into the ram. As the ram moved in and out oil could followit down this path. However on the diagram there looks to be a circular discwith an O ring seal at the head of the threaded rod, this would need tobe drilled through.?If you could attach a hose fitting where the wires comeout you could run oil & wires out through a hose. Put a T on the hose forthe wires to come out & continue the other branch to a compensator.? ?I had liked your idea of a pneumatic cylinder with motor & planetarygear box in it, but as you found, it could be a lot of mucking about whenthere is an off the shelf item.I have drawings for an oil compensator & there is not much to them.Replacing the motor with brushless could be a hasle & it seems quite anexpence buying a Lenco actuator & butchering it.I will have another Google & think about things.Alan Sent from my iPad On 18/03/2018, at 1:05 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I did some experimenting with air cylinders and started testing joints with mechanical resistance to reduce or stop the bounce. ?I made up disks that went between the arm joints that could be tensioned to act like brake disks. ?Kinda like a motorcycle clutch. ?This does work to an extent but counterproductive from an energy conservation point of view.With your knowledge of brushless motors and controlling them, it would seem your direction should be to modify a Lenco actuator by removing the motor and replacing it with a brushless motor to oil fill it. ? There is one small challenge thought, and that is to relieve the oil trapped behind the threaded rod. ?The threaded rod spins inside a fixed nut with very tight tolerance. ?the tight tolerance may not let the oil flow when a void is created by the rod extending. ?I started to drill holes in the ss rod to create an oil passage way but stopped for fear of creating a bigger problem thus holding up the project. ?If you want to collaborate on making an oil filled actuator by converting a Lenco actuator, I would be in.If your concern with these actuators is the short stroke, don't be. ?The arm can be designed with stroke multipliers, that is already in my plan for the next generation arm.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 3:54:24 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Steve,I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control overthe flow.I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics mightbe a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use?brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well inoil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement &an overpressure. Can always re-look at them.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan,I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :).? That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. Cheers,Steve Fordyce On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; would this make it a lot less "spongey". You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. Has this been done before? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 165207 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 17 18:37:50 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 15:37:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Message-ID: <20180317153750.B47AB100@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 17 22:10:04 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 15:10:04 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: <237684697.2499930.1521317623912@mail.yahoo.com> References: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> <9E0A721F-B9C6-453D-BEB8-F0DFD2D99377@yahoo.com> <1104394580.2449225.1521309291929@mail.yahoo.com> <1514673035.2478333.1521315724563@mail.yahoo.com> <237684697.2499930.1521317623912@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, the more I look in to it the more I think you are on to something just air compensating these Lenco actuators. I have seen some on Ebay that are quite cheap. There would be very little air void to compensate & if you drill in to the piston area as you said, & are using Hugh / Cliff's pressure regulator to add a bit of overpressure & vent, then that should be a great little product. If you were going a few thousand feet then maybe go to oil compensation. I have a PS2 input / output converter ( now discontinued) that would be great for speed control & forward & back on 4 actuators from a play station 2 controller. There are other robot associated products that can do this, just a matter of finding something simple to hook up. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 18/03/2018, at 9:13 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, that will work, and could be cheaper. One nice thing with the Lenco actuator, no limit switching. The motor freewheels when it reaches the end of the stroke. What do you have against air compensating Lenco's ? simple, cheap, robust, available, etc.... > Hank > > On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 1:42:32 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alan, the motor housing is not sealed from the shaft housing. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 11:55:19 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alan, the picture is deceiving, at the base of the gear set there is a bushing to support the rotating shaft and I had to drill a air passage in that area. The ss rod is hollow and the oil can not get in and out of that void easily. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 8:53:53 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > thanks for the advice on the pneumatics. > Several years ago I was looking for replacement gears for the lenco to > speed up the travel on one of the longer stroked models. > Looking at the diagram below, oil could move down the spiral of the > threaded rod, into the ram. As the ram moved in and out oil could follow > it down this path. However on the diagram there looks to be a circular disc > with an O ring seal at the head of the threaded rod, this would need to > be drilled through. > If you could attach a hose fitting where the wires come > out you could run oil & wires out through a hose. Put a T on the hose for > the wires to come out & continue the other branch to a compensator. > I had liked your idea of a pneumatic cylinder with motor & planetary > gear box in it, but as you found, it could be a lot of mucking about when > there is an off the shelf item. > I have drawings for an oil compensator & there is not much to them. > Replacing the motor with brushless could be a hasle & it seems quite an > expence buying a Lenco actuator & butchering it. > I will have another Google & think about things. > Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 18/03/2018, at 1:05 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> I did some experimenting with air cylinders and started testing joints with mechanical resistance to reduce or stop the bounce. I made up disks that went between the arm joints that could be tensioned to act like brake disks. Kinda like a motorcycle clutch. This does work to an extent but counterproductive from an energy conservation point of view. >> With your knowledge of brushless motors and controlling them, it would seem your direction should be to modify a Lenco actuator by removing the motor and replacing it with a brushless motor to oil fill it. There is one small challenge thought, and that is to relieve the oil trapped behind the threaded rod. The threaded rod spins inside a fixed nut with very tight tolerance. the tight tolerance may not let the oil flow when a void is created by the rod extending. I started to drill holes in the ss rod to create an oil passage way but stopped for fear of creating a bigger problem thus holding up the project. >> If you want to collaborate on making an oil filled actuator by converting a Lenco actuator, I would be in. >> If your concern with these actuators is the short stroke, don't be. The arm can be designed with stroke multipliers, that is already in my plan for the next generation arm. >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 3:54:24 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Steve, >> I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control over >> the flow. >> I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics might >> be a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use >> brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well in >> oil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement & >> an overpressure. Can always re-look at them. >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alan, >>> I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. >>> >>> Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. >>> >>> I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :). That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve Fordyce >>> >>> On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. >>> Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". >>> If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something >>> like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; >>> would this make it a lot less "spongey". >>> You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. >>> It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator >>> every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. >>> Has this been done before? >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 17 23:04:10 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 22:04:10 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: <20180317153750.B47AB100@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20180317153750.B47AB100@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: See *DESIGN GUIDELINES *FOR CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS I MAY *1983* REVISED *JULY 1985* Prepared by M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both *Hypoxia* which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and *hyperoxic* breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. Cliff On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously have > some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I was > wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when > the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a > constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation > ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a > constant 20.8 % ? > > Brian > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 18 10:46:40 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 14:46:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: References: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> <9E0A721F-B9C6-453D-BEB8-F0DFD2D99377@yahoo.com> <1104394580.2449225.1521309291929@mail.yahoo.com> <1514673035.2478333.1521315724563@mail.yahoo.com> <237684697.2499930.1521317623912@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <993254587.2717065.1521384400715@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Yes that is pretty much what I did, the only difference between my compensation system and Cliff's is, I am using an internal regulator to feed air to the external regulator. ?This is possible because the dives planned for this spring and summer fall within the limits of the external regulators maximum upstream pressure. ?I just don't feel like buying another part at the moment.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 9:49:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,the more I look in to it the more I think you are on to something justair compensating these Lenco actuators. I have seen some on Ebaythat are quite cheap. There would be very little air void to compensate& if you drill in to the piston area as you said, & are using Hugh / Cliff's?pressure regulator to add a bit of overpressure & vent, then that should?be a great little product. If you were going a few thousand feet thenmaybe go to oil compensation.I have a PS2 input / output converter ( now discontinued) that would begreat for speed control & forward & back on 4 actuators from a playstation 2 controller. There are other robot associated products thatcan do this, just a matter of finding something simple to hook up.Alan Sent from my iPad On 18/03/2018, at 9:13 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, ?that will work, and could be cheaper. ?One nice thing with the Lenco actuator, no limit switching. ?The motor freewheels when it reaches the end of the stroke. ?What do you have against air compensating Lenco's ? ?simple, cheap, robust, available, etc....Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 1:42:32 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, the motor housing is not sealed from the shaft housing.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 11:55:19 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, the picture is deceiving, at the base of the gear set there is a bushing to support the rotating shaft and I had to drill a air passage in that area. ?The ss rod is hollow and the oil can not get in and out of that void easily.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 8:53:53 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,thanks for the advice on the pneumatics.Several years ago I was looking for replacement gears for the lenco tospeed up the travel on one of the longer stroked models.?Looking at the diagram below, oil could move down the spiral of the?threaded rod, into the ram. As the ram moved in and out oil could followit down this path. However on the diagram there looks to be a circular discwith an O ring seal at the head of the threaded rod, this would need tobe drilled through.?If you could attach a hose fitting where the wires comeout you could run oil & wires out through a hose. Put a T on the hose forthe wires to come out & continue the other branch to a compensator.? ?I had liked your idea of a pneumatic cylinder with motor & planetarygear box in it, but as you found, it could be a lot of mucking about whenthere is an off the shelf item.I have drawings for an oil compensator & there is not much to them.Replacing the motor with brushless could be a hasle & it seems quite anexpence buying a Lenco actuator & butchering it.I will have another Google & think about things.Alan Sent from my iPad On 18/03/2018, at 1:05 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I did some experimenting with air cylinders and started testing joints with mechanical resistance to reduce or stop the bounce. ?I made up disks that went between the arm joints that could be tensioned to act like brake disks. ?Kinda like a motorcycle clutch. ?This does work to an extent but counterproductive from an energy conservation point of view.With your knowledge of brushless motors and controlling them, it would seem your direction should be to modify a Lenco actuator by removing the motor and replacing it with a brushless motor to oil fill it. ? There is one small challenge thought, and that is to relieve the oil trapped behind the threaded rod. ?The threaded rod spins inside a fixed nut with very tight tolerance. ?the tight tolerance may not let the oil flow when a void is created by the rod extending. ?I started to drill holes in the ss rod to create an oil passage way but stopped for fear of creating a bigger problem thus holding up the project. ?If you want to collaborate on making an oil filled actuator by converting a Lenco actuator, I would be in.If your concern with these actuators is the short stroke, don't be. ?The arm can be designed with stroke multipliers, that is already in my plan for the next generation arm.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 3:54:24 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Steve,I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control overthe flow.I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics mightbe a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use?brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well inoil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement &an overpressure. Can always re-look at them.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan,I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :).? That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. Cheers,Steve Fordyce On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; would this make it a lot less "spongey". You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. Has this been done before? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 18 15:58:06 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 08:58:06 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: <993254587.2717065.1521384400715@mail.yahoo.com> References: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> <9E0A721F-B9C6-453D-BEB8-F0DFD2D99377@yahoo.com> <1104394580.2449225.1521309291929@mail.yahoo.com> <1514673035.2478333.1521315724563@mail.yahoo.com> <237684697.2499930.1521317623912@mail.yahoo.com> <993254587.2717065.1521384400715@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, not understanding properly. The relieving regulator that Cliff has, has an inlet pressure of 300 psi & maintains your set pressure above ambient. If you ran a hose from the low pressure port of a first stage regulator then you would have round about 130psi above ambient; I would think that you could then go down a few thousand feet with that set up. Even though the inlet pressure would be well beyond the regulators rating, the internal pressure would balance it out. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 19/03/2018, at 3:46 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Yes that is pretty much what I did, the only difference between my compensation system and Cliff's is, I am using an internal regulator to feed air to the external regulator. This is possible because the dives planned for this spring and summer fall within the limits of the external regulators maximum upstream pressure. I just don't feel like buying another part at the moment. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 9:49:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > the more I look in to it the more I think you are on to something just > air compensating these Lenco actuators. I have seen some on Ebay > that are quite cheap. There would be very little air void to compensate > & if you drill in to the piston area as you said, & are using Hugh / Cliff's > pressure regulator to add a bit of overpressure & vent, then that should > be a great little product. If you were going a few thousand feet then > maybe go to oil compensation. > I have a PS2 input / output converter ( now discontinued) that would be > great for speed control & forward & back on 4 actuators from a play > station 2 controller. There are other robot associated products that > can do this, just a matter of finding something simple to hook up. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 18/03/2018, at 9:13 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, that will work, and could be cheaper. One nice thing with the Lenco actuator, no limit switching. The motor freewheels when it reaches the end of the stroke. What do you have against air compensating Lenco's ? simple, cheap, robust, available, etc.... >> Hank >> >> On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 1:42:32 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Alan, the motor housing is not sealed from the shaft housing. >> Hank >> >> On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 11:55:19 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Alan, the picture is deceiving, at the base of the gear set there is a bushing to support the rotating shaft and I had to drill a air passage in that area. The ss rod is hollow and the oil can not get in and out of that void easily. >> Hank >> >> On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 8:53:53 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> thanks for the advice on the pneumatics. >> Several years ago I was looking for replacement gears for the lenco to >> speed up the travel on one of the longer stroked models. >> Looking at the diagram below, oil could move down the spiral of the >> threaded rod, into the ram. As the ram moved in and out oil could follow >> it down this path. However on the diagram there looks to be a circular disc >> with an O ring seal at the head of the threaded rod, this would need to >> be drilled through. >> If you could attach a hose fitting where the wires come >> out you could run oil & wires out through a hose. Put a T on the hose for >> the wires to come out & continue the other branch to a compensator. >> I had liked your idea of a pneumatic cylinder with motor & planetary >> gear box in it, but as you found, it could be a lot of mucking about when >> there is an off the shelf item. >> I have drawings for an oil compensator & there is not much to them. >> Replacing the motor with brushless could be a hasle & it seems quite an >> expence buying a Lenco actuator & butchering it. >> I will have another Google & think about things. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 18/03/2018, at 1:05 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> I did some experimenting with air cylinders and started testing joints with mechanical resistance to reduce or stop the bounce. I made up disks that went between the arm joints that could be tensioned to act like brake disks. Kinda like a motorcycle clutch. This does work to an extent but counterproductive from an energy conservation point of view. >>> With your knowledge of brushless motors and controlling them, it would seem your direction should be to modify a Lenco actuator by removing the motor and replacing it with a brushless motor to oil fill it. There is one small challenge thought, and that is to relieve the oil trapped behind the threaded rod. The threaded rod spins inside a fixed nut with very tight tolerance. the tight tolerance may not let the oil flow when a void is created by the rod extending. I started to drill holes in the ss rod to create an oil passage way but stopped for fear of creating a bigger problem thus holding up the project. >>> If you want to collaborate on making an oil filled actuator by converting a Lenco actuator, I would be in. >>> If your concern with these actuators is the short stroke, don't be. The arm can be designed with stroke multipliers, that is already in my plan for the next generation arm. >>> Hank >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 3:54:24 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Thanks Steve, >>> I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control over >>> the flow. >>> I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics might >>> be a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use >>> brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well in >>> oil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement & >>> an overpressure. Can always re-look at them. >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Alan, >>>> I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. >>>> >>>> Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. >>>> >>>> I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :). That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Steve Fordyce >>>> >>>> On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. >>>> Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". >>>> If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something >>>> like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; >>>> would this make it a lot less "spongey". >>>> You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. >>>> It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator >>>> every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. >>>> Has this been done before? >>>> Cheers Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 18 17:31:33 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 21:31:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: References: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> <9E0A721F-B9C6-453D-BEB8-F0DFD2D99377@yahoo.com> <1104394580.2449225.1521309291929@mail.yahoo.com> <1514673035.2478333.1521315724563@mail.yahoo.com> <237684697.2499930.1521317623912@mail.yahoo.com> <993254587.2717065.1521384400715@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <35718120.2829642.1521408693150@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I don't have a scuba tank on Gamma and I don't feel like buying a scuba regulator right now. ?I have a 6,000 psi regulator laying around, so I plumbed it into my system and that feeds the low pressure regulator out in the water. ?I can just feed 200 psi to the low pressure regulator and forget it.Hank On Sunday, March 18, 2018, 1:58:37 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,not understanding properly.The relieving regulator that Cliff has, has an inlet pressure of 300 psi &maintains your set pressure above ambient. If you ran a hose from the lowpressure port of a first stage regulator then you would have round about130psi above ambient; I would think that you could then go down a few thousand?feet with that set up. Even though the inlet pressure would be well beyondthe regulators rating, the internal pressure would balance it out.Alan Sent from my iPad On 19/03/2018, at 3:46 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,Yes that is pretty much what I did, the only difference between my compensation system and Cliff's is, I am using an internal regulator to feed air to the external regulator. ?This is possible because the dives planned for this spring and summer fall within the limits of the external regulators maximum upstream pressure. ?I just don't feel like buying another part at the moment.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 9:49:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,the more I look in to it the more I think you are on to something justair compensating these Lenco actuators. I have seen some on Ebaythat are quite cheap. There would be very little air void to compensate& if you drill in to the piston area as you said, & are using Hugh / Cliff's?pressure regulator to add a bit of overpressure & vent, then that should?be a great little product. If you were going a few thousand feet thenmaybe go to oil compensation.I have a PS2 input / output converter ( now discontinued) that would begreat for speed control & forward & back on 4 actuators from a playstation 2 controller. There are other robot associated products thatcan do this, just a matter of finding something simple to hook up.Alan Sent from my iPad On 18/03/2018, at 9:13 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, ?that will work, and could be cheaper. ?One nice thing with the Lenco actuator, no limit switching. ?The motor freewheels when it reaches the end of the stroke. ?What do you have against air compensating Lenco's ? ?simple, cheap, robust, available, etc....Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 1:42:32 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, the motor housing is not sealed from the shaft housing.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 11:55:19 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, the picture is deceiving, at the base of the gear set there is a bushing to support the rotating shaft and I had to drill a air passage in that area. ?The ss rod is hollow and the oil can not get in and out of that void easily.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 8:53:53 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,thanks for the advice on the pneumatics.Several years ago I was looking for replacement gears for the lenco tospeed up the travel on one of the longer stroked models.?Looking at the diagram below, oil could move down the spiral of the?threaded rod, into the ram. As the ram moved in and out oil could followit down this path. However on the diagram there looks to be a circular discwith an O ring seal at the head of the threaded rod, this would need tobe drilled through.?If you could attach a hose fitting where the wires comeout you could run oil & wires out through a hose. Put a T on the hose forthe wires to come out & continue the other branch to a compensator.? ?I had liked your idea of a pneumatic cylinder with motor & planetarygear box in it, but as you found, it could be a lot of mucking about whenthere is an off the shelf item.I have drawings for an oil compensator & there is not much to them.Replacing the motor with brushless could be a hasle & it seems quite anexpence buying a Lenco actuator & butchering it.I will have another Google & think about things.Alan Sent from my iPad On 18/03/2018, at 1:05 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I did some experimenting with air cylinders and started testing joints with mechanical resistance to reduce or stop the bounce. ?I made up disks that went between the arm joints that could be tensioned to act like brake disks. ?Kinda like a motorcycle clutch. ?This does work to an extent but counterproductive from an energy conservation point of view.With your knowledge of brushless motors and controlling them, it would seem your direction should be to modify a Lenco actuator by removing the motor and replacing it with a brushless motor to oil fill it. ? There is one small challenge thought, and that is to relieve the oil trapped behind the threaded rod. ?The threaded rod spins inside a fixed nut with very tight tolerance. ?the tight tolerance may not let the oil flow when a void is created by the rod extending. ?I started to drill holes in the ss rod to create an oil passage way but stopped for fear of creating a bigger problem thus holding up the project. ?If you want to collaborate on making an oil filled actuator by converting a Lenco actuator, I would be in.If your concern with these actuators is the short stroke, don't be. ?The arm can be designed with stroke multipliers, that is already in my plan for the next generation arm.Hank On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 3:54:24 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Steve,I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control overthe flow.I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics mightbe a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use?brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well inoil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement &an overpressure. Can always re-look at them.Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan,I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :).? That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. Cheers,Steve Fordyce On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; would this make it a lot less "spongey". You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. Has this been done before? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 18 17:41:20 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:41:20 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pneumatic Manipulator In-Reply-To: <35718120.2829642.1521408693150@mail.yahoo.com> References: <98DE2EDE-4193-4FF2-A047-C7D3FD669ACB@yahoo.com> <700875860.2356000.1521288345783@mail.yahoo.com> <9E0A721F-B9C6-453D-BEB8-F0DFD2D99377@yahoo.com> <1104394580.2449225.1521309291929@mail.yahoo.com> <1514673035.2478333.1521315724563@mail.yahoo.com> <237684697.2499930.1521317623912@mail.yahoo.com> <993254587.2717065.1521384400715@mail.yahoo.com> <35718120.2829642.1521408693150@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9A006451-6188-47D7-AD39-598D25D816C1@yahoo.com> Hank, ok am following you now. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 19/03/2018, at 10:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I don't have a scuba tank on Gamma and I don't feel like buying a scuba regulator right now. I have a 6,000 psi regulator laying around, so I plumbed it into my system and that feeds the low pressure regulator out in the water. I can just feed 200 psi to the low pressure regulator and forget it. > Hank > > On Sunday, March 18, 2018, 1:58:37 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > not understanding properly. > The relieving regulator that Cliff has, has an inlet pressure of 300 psi & > maintains your set pressure above ambient. If you ran a hose from the low > pressure port of a first stage regulator then you would have round about > 130psi above ambient; I would think that you could then go down a few thousand > feet with that set up. Even though the inlet pressure would be well beyond > the regulators rating, the internal pressure would balance it out. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 19/03/2018, at 3:46 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> Yes that is pretty much what I did, the only difference between my compensation system and Cliff's is, I am using an internal regulator to feed air to the external regulator. This is possible because the dives planned for this spring and summer fall within the limits of the external regulators maximum upstream pressure. I just don't feel like buying another part at the moment. >> Hank >> >> On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 9:49:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> the more I look in to it the more I think you are on to something just >> air compensating these Lenco actuators. I have seen some on Ebay >> that are quite cheap. There would be very little air void to compensate >> & if you drill in to the piston area as you said, & are using Hugh / Cliff's >> pressure regulator to add a bit of overpressure & vent, then that should >> be a great little product. If you were going a few thousand feet then >> maybe go to oil compensation. >> I have a PS2 input / output converter ( now discontinued) that would be >> great for speed control & forward & back on 4 actuators from a play >> station 2 controller. There are other robot associated products that >> can do this, just a matter of finding something simple to hook up. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 18/03/2018, at 9:13 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, that will work, and could be cheaper. One nice thing with the Lenco actuator, no limit switching. The motor freewheels when it reaches the end of the stroke. What do you have against air compensating Lenco's ? simple, cheap, robust, available, etc.... >>> Hank >>> >>> On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 1:42:32 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Alan, the motor housing is not sealed from the shaft housing. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 11:55:19 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Alan, the picture is deceiving, at the base of the gear set there is a bushing to support the rotating shaft and I had to drill a air passage in that area. The ss rod is hollow and the oil can not get in and out of that void easily. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 8:53:53 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hank, >>> thanks for the advice on the pneumatics. >>> Several years ago I was looking for replacement gears for the lenco to >>> speed up the travel on one of the longer stroked models. >>> Looking at the diagram below, oil could move down the spiral of the >>> threaded rod, into the ram. As the ram moved in and out oil could follow >>> it down this path. However on the diagram there looks to be a circular disc >>> with an O ring seal at the head of the threaded rod, this would need to >>> be drilled through. >>> If you could attach a hose fitting where the wires come >>> out you could run oil & wires out through a hose. Put a T on the hose for >>> the wires to come out & continue the other branch to a compensator. >>> I had liked your idea of a pneumatic cylinder with motor & planetary >>> gear box in it, but as you found, it could be a lot of mucking about when >>> there is an off the shelf item. >>> I have drawings for an oil compensator & there is not much to them. >>> Replacing the motor with brushless could be a hasle & it seems quite an >>> expence buying a Lenco actuator & butchering it. >>> I will have another Google & think about things. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On 18/03/2018, at 1:05 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Alan, >>>> I did some experimenting with air cylinders and started testing joints with mechanical resistance to reduce or stop the bounce. I made up disks that went between the arm joints that could be tensioned to act like brake disks. Kinda like a motorcycle clutch. This does work to an extent but counterproductive from an energy conservation point of view. >>>> With your knowledge of brushless motors and controlling them, it would seem your direction should be to modify a Lenco actuator by removing the motor and replacing it with a brushless motor to oil fill it. There is one small challenge thought, and that is to relieve the oil trapped behind the threaded rod. The threaded rod spins inside a fixed nut with very tight tolerance. the tight tolerance may not let the oil flow when a void is created by the rod extending. I started to drill holes in the ss rod to create an oil passage way but stopped for fear of creating a bigger problem thus holding up the project. >>>> If you want to collaborate on making an oil filled actuator by converting a Lenco actuator, I would be in. >>>> If your concern with these actuators is the short stroke, don't be. The arm can be designed with stroke multipliers, that is already in my plan for the next generation arm. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, March 17, 2018, 3:54:24 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks Steve, >>>> I thought there might be a solenoid valve that gave a good variable control over >>>> the flow. >>>> I did experiment quite a bit with linear actuators, but thought pneumatics might >>>> be a lot simpler. The commercial deep sea linear actuators are oil filled & use >>>> brushless motors. As I found out, the small brushed motors don't run so well in >>>> oil. They have external oil reservoirs to compensate for the piston movement & >>>> an overpressure. Can always re-look at them. >>>> Cheers Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On 17/03/2018, at 3:58 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Alan, >>>>> I've done a little with pneumatic cylinders and I think it will be very difficult to achieve any kind of accurate positioning. Pneumatic is fine if you only need a cylinder to be fully extended or retracted (as is used for industrial automation) but anything mid way is likely to need a complicated feedback/control system. >>>>> >>>>> Even considering as a perfect system, if you have varying force/load, to avoid movement you must have an equally varying pressure in the cylinder. Increasing pressure in the cylinder doesn't help because you then need to increase pressure in the opposite side and then the tendency to resist a disturbing force is not much different anyway. (And if using a single rod cylinder, the pressures in each end need to be different to achieve the same force due to area of the piston) Throw in real world considerations of static friction and dynamic friction and it's harder again to reach and hold a desired position. >>>>> >>>>> I'm a bit surprised you haven't already ordered a cheap pneumatic cylinder for some concept testing :). That should give you a feel pretty quickly if it's doable or not. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Steve Fordyce >>>>> >>>>> On 17 Mar 2018 7:27 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> Have thought a lot about pneumatic manipulators. >>>>> Hank has commented several times that they are too "spongy". >>>>> If you had pressure relief valves or similar in the system set at something >>>>> like 30 psi, so there was always a minimum of 30 psi either side of the piston; >>>>> would this make it a lot less "spongey". >>>>> You would now need to put an extra 30psi in to get the same force. >>>>> It would mean more air, but it is not likely you would be using the manipulator >>>>> every dive, & it would be a small quantity compared with blowing a ballast tank. >>>>> Has this been done before? >>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 18 18:02:45 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:02:45 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: References: <20180317153750.B47AB100@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian and all, I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. Cheers, Steve Fordyce On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > See > > *DESIGN GUIDELINES *FOR > > CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS > > I > > MAY *1983* > > REVISED *JULY 1985* > > Prepared by > M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON > > for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test > if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 > issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both *Hypoxia* which > describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and > *hyperoxic* breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia > would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve > closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high > pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would > recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the > acceptable range as defined by ABS. > > When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged > cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin > pressure and temperature and relative humidity. > > Cliff > > On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously >> have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I >> was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test >> when the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a >> constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation >> ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a >> constant 20.8 % ? >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 18 19:22:26 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:22:26 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: References: <20180317153750.B47AB100@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: Steve, you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape. Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking 1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend. I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group might confirm this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you could drink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen. For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth. I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz) How deep is Scott going? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Brian and all, > I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. > > To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. > > If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > >> On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> See >> DESIGN GUIDELINES FOR >> >> CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS >> >> I >> >> MAY 1983 >> >> REVISED JULY 1985 >> >> Prepared by >> >> M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON >> >> for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. >> >> When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. >> >> Cliff >> >>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 % ? >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 18 19:52:25 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:52:25 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: References: <20180317153750.B47AB100@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: <37257188-2E0A-4085-BA7D-39CC8EDDED62@yahoo.com> Sorry should have read 1 Martini for every 10 metres "beyond 100ft" (Hope nobody had started experimenting already) Alan Sent from my iPad > On 19/03/2018, at 12:22 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Steve, > you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape. > Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking > 1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend. > I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group might > confirm this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you could > drink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen. > For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth. > I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz) > How deep is Scott going? > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Brian and all, >> I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. >> >> To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. >> >> If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> >>> On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> See >>> DESIGN GUIDELINES FOR >>> >>> CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS >>> >>> I >>> >>> MAY 1983 >>> >>> REVISED JULY 1985 >>> >>> Prepared by >>> >>> M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON >>> >>> for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. >>> >>> When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Hi All, >>>> Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 % ? >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 18 19:59:31 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: References: <20180317153750.B47AB100@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Alan, Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go. I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up). If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. Cheers, Steve On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Steve, > you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape. > Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to > drinking > 1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend. > I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group > might > confirm this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you could > drink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with > nitrogen. > For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth. > I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz) > How deep is Scott going? > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Brian and all, > I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a > bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training > manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and > symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems > should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. > > To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber > at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were > noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I > consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do > high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. > > If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below > 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. > Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate > rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't > dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > > On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> See >> >> *DESIGN GUIDELINES *FOR >> >> CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS >> >> I >> >> MAY *1983* >> >> REVISED *JULY 1985* >> >> Prepared by >> M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON >> >> for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test >> if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 >> issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both *Hypoxia* which >> describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and >> *hyperoxic* breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia >> would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve >> closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high >> pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would >> recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the >> acceptable range as defined by ABS. >> >> When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged >> cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin >> pressure and temperature and relative humidity. >> >> Cliff >> >> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously >>> have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I >>> was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test >>> when the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a >>> constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation >>> ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a >>> constant 20.8 % ? >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 18 22:45:29 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 19:45:29 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Message-ID: <20180318194529.B47A48F0@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 19 04:27:46 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 08:27:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: <20180318194529.B47A48F0@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20180318194529.B47A48F0@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1255108887.3046089.1521448066947@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Those are great readings, your scrubber is working great! ?Hank On Sunday, March 18, 2018, 8:45:50 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,?????????????? I did?a life support test today !?? Basically I threw a small party with a couple of friends and my wife.? I was sealed in the sub for a total of about 2 1/2 hours?.???? At the hatch closing time the readings were:?O2? -??? 20.6 %????? CO2 1225 ppm????????? Temp 79 F????????? Humidity??? 50 %??In one hour the readings were:?O2?? -? 21.4?%???????????? CO2? 1365 ppm????????? Temp79?????????? humidity??? 63 %??At hour 2? readings were:?O2?? -?? 22.2 %?????????????? CO2? 1750 ppm????????? Temp 77 F????????? humidity? 70 %??After? 2 1/2 hours readings were :?O2? -??? 22.2 %??????????????? CO2? 1785 ppm??????????? Temp 76??????????? humidity?? 70 %? ??Brian????????? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100 Hi Alan,Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go. I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up).?? If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. Cheers,Steve On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Steve,you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape.Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend.I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group mightconfirm ?this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you coulddrink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen.For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth.I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz)How deep is Scott going?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian and all,I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. Cheers,Steve Fordyce On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: See DESIGN GUIDELINES FOR CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS I MAY 1983 REVISED JULY 1985 Prepared by M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON for the philological affects of high CO2 level but?if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe.??In addition to the CO2 issues,?you should also familrrize?yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and ?hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come?from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and?hyperoic state?would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of?O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting.? I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. Cliff On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,????????????? Thinking about testing my life support.? Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio.? But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2? gets to a certain point .?? If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ??? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 %??? ????? ?Brian?? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 19 05:44:37 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 22:44:37 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: References: <20180317153750.B47AB100@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: <5E403EB9-582E-4721-BE15-2F29C76BF60C@yahoo.com> Steve, I recall Phil Nuyten having a plan whereby the dome/hatch had internal hinge pins that could be taken out during an emergency escape. A harness was put under the arms of the pilot & attached to the dome. The hull was then flooded & at equalization point the dome would take off & haul the narked pilot out. He could then breath the air in the dome on the way up. Sounds good on paper! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 19/03/2018, at 12:59 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go. > > I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up). > > If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. > > Cheers, > Steve > >> On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> Steve, >> you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape. >> Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking >> 1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend. >> I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group might >> confirm this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you could >> drink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen. >> For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth. >> I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz) >> How deep is Scott going? >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brian and all, >>> I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. >>> >>> To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. >>> >>> If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve Fordyce >>> >>>> On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> See >>>> DESIGN GUIDELINES FOR >>>> >>>> CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS >>>> >>>> I >>>> >>>> MAY 1983 >>>> >>>> REVISED JULY 1985 >>>> >>>> Prepared by >>>> >>>> M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON >>>> >>>> for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. >>>> >>>> When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. >>>> >>>> Cliff >>>> >>>>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 % ? >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 19 08:02:43 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:02:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: <5E403EB9-582E-4721-BE15-2F29C76BF60C@yahoo.com> References: <20180317153750.B47AB100@m0117568.ppops.net> <5E403EB9-582E-4721-BE15-2F29C76BF60C@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382192931.3141158.1521460963136@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Not a bad idea if it has a drop down skirt to increase the air volume but mostly to stop the dome from wanting to tip and spill the air out.Hank On Monday, March 19, 2018, 3:45:19 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Steve,I recall Phil Nuyten having a plan whereby the dome/hatch had internalhinge pins that could be taken out during an emergency escape.A harness was put under the arms of the pilot & attached to the dome.The hull was then flooded & at equalization point the dome would take?off & haul the narked pilot out. He could then breath the air in the domeon the way up.Sounds good on paper!Alan Sent from my iPad On 19/03/2018, at 12:59 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan,Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go. I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up).?? If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. Cheers,Steve On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Steve,you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape.Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend.I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group mightconfirm ?this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you coulddrink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen.For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth.I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz)How deep is Scott going?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian and all,I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. Cheers,Steve Fordyce On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: See DESIGN GUIDELINES FOR CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS I MAY 1983 REVISED JULY 1985 Prepared by M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON for the philological affects of high CO2 level but?if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe.??In addition to the CO2 issues,?you should also familrrize?yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and ?hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come?from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and?hyperoic state?would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of?O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting.? I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. Cliff On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,????????????? Thinking about testing my life support.? Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio.? But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2? gets to a certain point .?? If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ??? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 %??? ????? ?Brian?? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 19 10:30:24 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:30:24 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: <20180318194529.B47A48F0@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20180318194529.B47A48F0@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: Looks like progress on qualifying your life support system. A couple of observations. Your scrubber looks like it is controlling the CO2 level nicely. Humidity build looks normal. If you would have stayed in the boat longer, it would eventually plateau. The only thing that looks a little weak to me is the O2 concentration. It looks like your O2 makeup rate was a bit high, i.e., you are making up more O2 than you are consuming. If you looked at your results on a linear basis, the O2 would have reach the maximum acceptable ABS O2 concentration of 23% at 3.75 hours. Well short of the ABS 72 hour target. Not sure how you are controlling O2 makeup. The next thing I would do is do a longer test say 8-9 hours or how ever long it takes for your initial fill of CO2 absorbent to become saturated. The next test I would suggest is how long does it take for CO2 to build to 5000 ppm when O2 if off. Would also suggest you measure and report cabin pressure as this would tell you if you have a gas leak into the cabin. Also I would log the data more frequently say every 10 minutes to improve data analysis. You have nothing better to do while sitting in the boat. Also you might want to consider repeating the test with a low weight pilot to see how the system handle variation in CO2 generation and O2 consumption rates. Keep up the good work. Cliff On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > I did a life support test today ! Basically I threw a > small party with a couple of friends and my wife. I was sealed in the sub > for a total of about 2 1/2 hours . > > > > At the hatch closing time the readings were: > > O2 - 20.6 % CO2 1225 ppm Temp 79 F Humidity > 50 % > > > In one hour the readings were: > > O2 - 21.4 % CO2 1365 ppm Temp79 > humidity 63 % > > > At hour 2 readings were: > > O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1750 ppm Temp 77 F > humidity 70 % > > > After 2 1/2 hours readings were : > > O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1785 ppm Temp 76 > humidity 70 % > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test > Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100 > > Hi Alan, > Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is > going to deviate the further you go. > > I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to > 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to > save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up). > > If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing > pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on > air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. > > Cheers, > Steve > > On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Steve, > you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape. > Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to > drinking > 1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend. > I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group > might > confirm this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you could > drink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with > nitrogen. > For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth. > I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz) > How deep is Scott going? > Cheers Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Brian and all, > I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a > bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training > manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and > symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems > should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. > > To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber > at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were > noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I > consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do > high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. > > If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below > 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. > Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate > rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't > dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > > On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > See > > *DESIGN GUIDELINES *FOR > > CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS > > I > > MAY *1983* > > REVISED *JULY 1985* > > Prepared by > M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON > > for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test > if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 > issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both *Hypoxia* which > describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and > *hyperoxic* breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia > would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve > closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high > pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would > recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the > acceptable range as defined by ABS. > > When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged > cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin > pressure and temperature and relative humidity. > > Cliff > > > On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously have > some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I was > wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when > the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a > constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation > ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a > constant 20.8 % ? > > Brian > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 19 10:40:07 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:40:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: References: <20180318194529.B47A48F0@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: I am wondering about the apparent offset in the CO2 reading. You indicate a reading of 1225 ppm at hatch close. Assuming that this was the initial pretest reading before commencing any CO2 production in the closed environment, shouldn't that be closer to the 400 ppm typical of atmospheric air? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 19, 2018, 08:30, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Looks like progress on qualifying your life support system. A couple of observations. Your scrubber looks like it is controlling the CO2 level nicely. Humidity build looks normal. If you would have stayed in the boat longer, it would eventually plateau. The only thing that looks a little weak to me is the O2 concentration. It looks like your O2 makeup rate was a bit high, i.e., you are making up more O2 than you are consuming. If you looked at your results on a linear basis, the O2 would have reach the maximum acceptable ABS O2 concentration of 23% at 3.75 hours. Well short of the ABS 72 hour target. Not sure how you are controlling O2 makeup. The next thing I would do is do a longer test say 8-9 hours or how ever long it takes for your initial fill of CO2 absorbent to become saturated. The next test I would suggest is how long does it take for CO2 to build to 5000 ppm when O2 if off. Would also suggest you measure and report cabin pressure as this would tell you if you have a gas leak into the cabin. Also I would log the data more frequently say every 10 minutes to improve data analysis. You have nothing better to do while sitting in the boat. Also you might want to consider repeating the test with a low weight pilot to see how the system handle variation in CO2 generation and O2 consumption rates. > > Keep up the good work. > > Cliff > > On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I did a life support test today ! Basically I threw a small party with a couple of friends and my wife. I was sealed in the sub for a total of about 2 1/2 hours . >> >> At the hatch closing time the readings were: >> >> O2 - 20.6 % CO2 1225 ppm Temp 79 F Humidity 50 % >> >> In one hour the readings were: >> >> O2 - 21.4 % CO2 1365 ppm Temp79 humidity 63 % >> >> At hour 2 readings were: >> >> O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1750 ppm Temp 77 F humidity 70 % >> >> After 2 1/2 hours readings were : >> >> O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1785 ppm Temp 76 humidity 70 % >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test >> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100 >> Hi Alan, >> Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go. >> >> I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up). >> >> If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >>> Steve, >>> you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape. >>> Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking >>> 1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend. >>> I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group might >>> confirm this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you could >>> drink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen. >>> For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth. >>> I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz) >>> How deep is Scott going? >>> Cheers Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Brian and all, >>>> I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. >>>> >>>> To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. >>>> >>>> If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Steve Fordyce >>>> >>>> On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>>> See >>>>> >>>>> DESIGN GUIDELINES FOR >>>>> >>>>> CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> >>>>> MAY 1983 >>>>> >>>>> REVISED JULY 1985 >>>>> >>>>> Prepared by >>>>> >>>>> M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON >>>>> >>>>> for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. >>>>> >>>>> When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. >>>>> >>>>> Cliff >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 % ? >>>>>> Brian >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 19 11:24:32 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 15:24:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: References: <20180318194529.B47A48F0@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <538287025.3240223.1521473072560@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,I always check the CO2 level in Gamma when I get in to do work, it is never lower than 1200 ppm when it is just sitting empty without an occupant. ?I usually find that working in the sub with hatch open is sits around 2500 to 3500 and will drop to 1200 if it sits overnight. ?Maybe after several days it might drop more.Hank On Monday, March 19, 2018, 8:40:32 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am wondering about the apparent offset in the CO2 reading. You indicate a reading of 1225 ppm at hatch close. Assuming that this was the initial pretest reading before commencing any CO2 production in the closed environment, shouldn't that be closer to the 400 ppm typical of atmospheric air? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 19, 2018, 08:30, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Looks like progress on qualifying your life support system.? A couple of observations.? Your scrubber looks like it is controlling the CO2 level nicely.? Humidity build looks normal.? If you would have stayed in the boat longer, it would eventually plateau.? The only thing that looks a little weak to me is the O2 concentration.? It looks like your O2 makeup rate was a bit high, i.e., you are making up more O2 than you are consuming.? If you looked at your results on a linear basis, the O2 would have reach the maximum acceptable ABS O2 concentration of 23% at 3.75 hours.? Well?short of the ABS 72?hour target.? Not sure how you are controlling O2 makeup.? The next thing I would do is do a longer test say 8-9 hours or how ever long it takes for your initial fill of CO2 absorbent to become saturated.? The next test I would suggest is how long does it take for CO2 to build to 5000 ppm when O2 if off.? Would also suggest you measure and report cabin pressure as this would tell you if you have a gas leak into the cabin.? Also I would log the data more frequently say every 10 minutes to improve data analysis.? You have ?nothing better to do while sitting in the boat.? Also you might want to consider repeating the test with a low weight pilot to see how the system handle variation in CO2 generation and O2 consumption rates. Keep up the good work. Cliff On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,?????????????? I did?a life support test today !?? Basically I threw a small party with a couple of friends and my wife.? I was sealed in the sub for a total of about 2 1/2 hours?.???? At the hatch closing time the readings were:?O2? -??? 20.6 %????? CO2 1225 ppm????????? Temp 79 F????????? Humidity??? 50 %??In one hour the readings were:?O2?? -? 21.4?%???????????? CO2? 1365 ppm????????? Temp79?????????? humidity??? 63 %??At hour 2? readings were:?O2?? -?? 22.2 %?????????????? CO2? 1750 ppm????????? Temp 77 F????????? humidity? 70 %??After? 2 1/2 hours readings were :?O2? -??? 22.2 %??????????????? CO2? 1785 ppm??????????? Temp 76??????????? humidity?? 70 %? ??Brian????????? --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100 Hi Alan,Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go. I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up).?? If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. Cheers,Steve On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Steve,you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape.Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend.I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group mightconfirm ?this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you coulddrink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen.For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth.I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz)How deep is Scott going?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian and all,I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. Cheers,Steve Fordyce On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: See DESIGN GUIDELINES FOR CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS I MAY 1983 REVISED JULY 1985 Prepared by M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON for the philological affects of high CO2 level but?if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe.??In addition to the CO2 issues,?you should also familrrize?yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and ?hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come?from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and?hyperoic state?would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of?O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting.? I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. Cliff On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,????????????? Thinking about testing my life support.? Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio.? But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2? gets to a certain point .?? If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ??? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 %??? ????? ?Brian?? ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 19 11:26:45 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:26:45 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: References: <20180318194529.B47A48F0@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: Good point. I did not pick up on that. As you say at hatch close it should have been around 400 ppm. CO2 sensor may need calibration. Cliff On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I am wondering about the apparent offset in the CO2 reading. You indicate > a reading of 1225 ppm at hatch close. Assuming that this was the initial > pretest reading before commencing any CO2 production in the closed > environment, shouldn't that be closer to the 400 ppm typical of atmospheric > air? > > Sean > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Mar 19, 2018, 08:30, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Looks like progress on qualifying your life support system. A couple of > observations. Your scrubber looks like it is controlling the CO2 level > nicely. Humidity build looks normal. If you would have stayed in the boat > longer, it would eventually plateau. The only thing that looks a little > weak to me is the O2 concentration. It looks like your O2 makeup rate was > a bit high, i.e., you are making up more O2 than you are consuming. If you > looked at your results on a linear basis, the O2 would have reach the > maximum acceptable ABS O2 concentration of 23% at 3.75 hours. Well short > of the ABS 72 hour target. Not sure how you are controlling O2 makeup. > The next thing I would do is do a longer test say 8-9 hours or how ever > long it takes for your initial fill of CO2 absorbent to become saturated. > The next test I would suggest is how long does it take for CO2 to build to > 5000 ppm when O2 if off. Would also suggest you measure and report cabin > pressure as this would tell you if you have a gas leak into the cabin. > Also I would log the data more frequently say every 10 minutes to improve > data analysis. You have nothing better to do while sitting in the boat. > Also you might want to consider repeating the test with a low weight pilot > to see how the system handle variation in CO2 generation and O2 consumption > rates. > > > Keep up the good work. > > Cliff > > > On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I did a life support test today ! Basically I threw a >> small party with a couple of friends and my wife. I was sealed in the sub >> for a total of about 2 1/2 hours . >> >> >> >> At the hatch closing time the readings were: >> >> O2 - 20.6 % CO2 1225 ppm Temp 79 F Humidity >> 50 % >> >> >> In one hour the readings were: >> >> O2 - 21.4 % CO2 1365 ppm Temp79 >> humidity 63 % >> >> >> At hour 2 readings were: >> >> O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1750 ppm Temp 77 F >> humidity 70 % >> >> >> After 2 1/2 hours readings were : >> >> O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1785 ppm Temp >> 76 humidity 70 % >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test >> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100 >> >> Hi Alan, >> Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is >> going to deviate the further you go. >> >> I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to >> 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to >> save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up). >> >> If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing >> pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on >> air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Steve, >> you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for >> escape. >> Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to >> drinking >> 1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend. >> I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group >> might >> confirm this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you >> could >> drink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with >> nitrogen. >> For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth. >> I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz) >> How deep is Scott going? >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Brian and all, >> I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a >> bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training >> manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and >> symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems >> should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. >> >> To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the >> scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 >> effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience >> that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like >> to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. >> >> If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below >> 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. >> Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate >> rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't >> dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> >> On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> See >> >> *DESIGN GUIDELINES *FOR >> >> CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS >> >> I >> >> MAY *1983* >> >> REVISED *JULY 1985* >> >> Prepared by >> M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON >> >> for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test >> if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 >> issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both *Hypoxia* which >> describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and >> *hyperoxic* breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia >> would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve >> closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high >> pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would >> recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the >> acceptable range as defined by ABS. >> >> When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged >> cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin >> pressure and temperature and relative humidity. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously >> have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I >> was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test >> when the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a >> constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation >> ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a >> constant 20.8 % ? >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 19 11:45:09 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 08:45:09 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Message-ID: <20180319084509.B47BA322@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 19 11:45:31 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 04:45:31 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: References: <20180318194529.B47A48F0@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: Cliff, did you mean testing CO2 levels when the scrubber is off, not the O2? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 20/03/2018, at 3:30 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Looks like progress on qualifying your life support system. A couple of observations. Your scrubber looks like it is controlling the CO2 level nicely. Humidity build looks normal. If you would have stayed in the boat longer, it would eventually plateau. The only thing that looks a little weak to me is the O2 concentration. It looks like your O2 makeup rate was a bit high, i.e., you are making up more O2 than you are consuming. If you looked at your results on a linear basis, the O2 would have reach the maximum acceptable ABS O2 concentration of 23% at 3.75 hours. Well short of the ABS 72 hour target. Not sure how you are controlling O2 makeup. The next thing I would do is do a longer test say 8-9 hours or how ever long it takes for your initial fill of CO2 absorbent to become saturated. The next test I would suggest is how long does it take for CO2 to build to 5000 ppm when O2 if off. Would also suggest you measure and report cabin pressure as this would tell you if you have a gas leak into the cabin. Also I would log the data more frequently say every 10 minutes to improve data analysis. You have nothing better to do while sitting in the boat. Also you might want to consider repeating the test with a low weight pilot to see how the system handle variation in CO2 generation and O2 consumption rates. > > > Keep up the good work. > > Cliff > > >> On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi All, >> I did a life support test today ! Basically I threw a small party with a couple of friends and my wife. I was sealed in the sub for a total of about 2 1/2 hours . >> >> >> >> At the hatch closing time the readings were: >> >> O2 - 20.6 % CO2 1225 ppm Temp 79 F Humidity 50 % >> >> >> In one hour the readings were: >> >> O2 - 21.4 % CO2 1365 ppm Temp79 humidity 63 % >> >> >> At hour 2 readings were: >> >> O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1750 ppm Temp 77 F humidity 70 % >> >> >> After 2 1/2 hours readings were : >> >> O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1785 ppm Temp 76 humidity 70 % >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test >> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100 >> >> Hi Alan, >> Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go. >> >> I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up). >> >> If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> Steve, >> you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape. >> Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking >> 1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend. >> I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group might >> confirm this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you could >> drink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen. >> For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth. >> I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz) >> How deep is Scott going? >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Brian and all, >> I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. >> >> To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. >> >> If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> >> On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> See >> DESIGN GUIDELINES FOR >> >> CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS >> >> I >> >> MAY 1983 >> >> REVISED JULY 1985 >> >> Prepared by >> >> M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON >> >> for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. >> >> When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. >> >> Cliff >> >> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi All, >> Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 % ? >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 19 12:00:17 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:00:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: References: <20180318194529.B47A48F0@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: Fingers again out ran my brain. What I intended to say was how long does it take for CO2 to build to 5000 ppm when CO2 scrubber fan off. The point being that you can calculate this number but my experience shows that you reach the limit faster than this calculated value due to dead circulation areas in the hull. Cliff On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:45 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > did you mean testing CO2 levels when the scrubber is off, not the O2? > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 20/03/2018, at 3:30 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Looks like progress on qualifying your life support system. A couple of > observations. Your scrubber looks like it is controlling the CO2 level > nicely. Humidity build looks normal. If you would have stayed in the boat > longer, it would eventually plateau. The only thing that looks a little > weak to me is the O2 concentration. It looks like your O2 makeup rate was > a bit high, i.e., you are making up more O2 than you are consuming. If you > looked at your results on a linear basis, the O2 would have reach the > maximum acceptable ABS O2 concentration of 23% at 3.75 hours. Well short > of the ABS 72 hour target. Not sure how you are controlling O2 makeup. > The next thing I would do is do a longer test say 8-9 hours or how ever > long it takes for your initial fill of CO2 absorbent to become saturated. > The next test I would suggest is how long does it take for CO2 to build to > 5000 ppm when O2 if off. Would also suggest you measure and report cabin > pressure as this would tell you if you have a gas leak into the cabin. > Also I would log the data more frequently say every 10 minutes to improve > data analysis. You have nothing better to do while sitting in the boat. > Also you might want to consider repeating the test with a low weight pilot > to see how the system handle variation in CO2 generation and O2 consumption > rates. > > > Keep up the good work. > > Cliff > > > On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I did a life support test today ! Basically I threw a >> small party with a couple of friends and my wife. I was sealed in the sub >> for a total of about 2 1/2 hours . >> >> >> >> At the hatch closing time the readings were: >> >> O2 - 20.6 % CO2 1225 ppm Temp 79 F Humidity >> 50 % >> >> >> In one hour the readings were: >> >> O2 - 21.4 % CO2 1365 ppm Temp79 >> humidity 63 % >> >> >> At hour 2 readings were: >> >> O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1750 ppm Temp 77 F >> humidity 70 % >> >> >> After 2 1/2 hours readings were : >> >> O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1785 ppm Temp >> 76 humidity 70 % >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test >> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100 >> >> Hi Alan, >> Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is >> going to deviate the further you go. >> >> I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to >> 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to >> save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up). >> >> If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing >> pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on >> air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Steve, >> you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for >> escape. >> Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to >> drinking >> 1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend. >> I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group >> might >> confirm this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you >> could >> drink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with >> nitrogen. >> For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth. >> I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz) >> How deep is Scott going? >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Brian and all, >> I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a >> bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training >> manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and >> symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems >> should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. >> >> To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the >> scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 >> effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience >> that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like >> to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. >> >> If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below >> 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. >> Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate >> rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't >> dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> >> On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> See >> >> *DESIGN GUIDELINES *FOR >> >> CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS >> >> I >> >> MAY *1983* >> >> REVISED *JULY 1985* >> >> Prepared by >> M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON >> >> for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test >> if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 >> issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both *Hypoxia* which >> describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and >> *hyperoxic* breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia >> would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve >> closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high >> pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would >> recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the >> acceptable range as defined by ABS. >> >> When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged >> cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin >> pressure and temperature and relative humidity. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously >> have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I >> was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test >> when the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a >> constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation >> ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a >> constant 20.8 % ? >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 19 12:02:24 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 05:02:24 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: <1382192931.3141158.1521460963136@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20180317153750.B47AB100@m0117568.ppops.net> <5E403EB9-582E-4721-BE15-2F29C76BF60C@yahoo.com> <1382192931.3141158.1521460963136@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, designing with the hatch hinges on the inside would be a hassle. I was thinking of a small parachute that could attach in the hatch area. Maybe with sticky patches on it. ( the ones where you peel off the paper) If you had a dome / hatch you could attach the centre of the parachute to the middle of the dome & all around the sides. Again have the under arm harness so that it supported you under the skirt of the dome! If you wanted to get fancy you could add a blow up section to the skirt to manually inflate on the surface. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 20/03/2018, at 1:02 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Not a bad idea if it has a drop down skirt to increase the air volume but mostly to stop the dome from wanting to tip and spill the air out. > Hank > > On Monday, March 19, 2018, 3:45:19 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Steve, > I recall Phil Nuyten having a plan whereby the dome/hatch had internal > hinge pins that could be taken out during an emergency escape. > A harness was put under the arms of the pilot & attached to the dome. > The hull was then flooded & at equalization point the dome would take > off & haul the narked pilot out. He could then breath the air in the dome > on the way up. > Sounds good on paper! > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 19/03/2018, at 12:59 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Alan, >> Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go. >> >> I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up). >> >> If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> >> On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> Steve, >> you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape. >> Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking >> 1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend. >> I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group might >> confirm this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you could >> drink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen. >> For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth. >> I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz) >> How deep is Scott going? >> Cheers Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brian and all, >>> I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. >>> >>> To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. >>> >>> If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve Fordyce >>> >>> On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> See >>> DESIGN GUIDELINES FOR >>> >>> CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS >>> >>> I >>> >>> MAY 1983 >>> >>> REVISED JULY 1985 >>> >>> Prepared by >>> >>> M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON >>> >>> for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. >>> >>> When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 % ? >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les >>> >>> ______________________________ _________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 19 19:35:12 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:35:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: References: <20180318194529.B47A48F0@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian - What CO2 sensor are you using? Do you have the technical specs available? As Cliff suggests, a calibration may be in order. Assuming you can trust the sensor readings, there are a few tests I would do: 1) Rise time to 5000 ppm under typical CO2 production with scrubber disabled. 2) Rise time to steady state under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, and characterization of steady state CO2 level, 3) Time to scrubber breakthrough (5000 ppm) under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, 3) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to steady state value after enabling fresh scrubber, 4) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to zero (or Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 19, 2018, 09:26, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Good point. I did not pick up on that. As you say at hatch close it should have been around 400 ppm. CO2 sensor may need calibration. > > Cliff > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> I am wondering about the apparent offset in the CO2 reading. You indicate a reading of 1225 ppm at hatch close. Assuming that this was the initial pretest reading before commencing any CO2 production in the closed environment, shouldn't that be closer to the 400 ppm typical of atmospheric air? >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Mar 19, 2018, 08:30, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Looks like progress on qualifying your life support system. A couple of observations. Your scrubber looks like it is controlling the CO2 level nicely. Humidity build looks normal. If you would have stayed in the boat longer, it would eventually plateau. The only thing that looks a little weak to me is the O2 concentration. It looks like your O2 makeup rate was a bit high, i.e., you are making up more O2 than you are consuming. If you looked at your results on a linear basis, the O2 would have reach the maximum acceptable ABS O2 concentration of 23% at 3.75 hours. Well short of the ABS 72 hour target. Not sure how you are controlling O2 makeup. The next thing I would do is do a longer test say 8-9 hours or how ever long it takes for your initial fill of CO2 absorbent to become saturated. The next test I would suggest is how long does it take for CO2 to build to 5000 ppm when O2 if off. Would also suggest you measure and report cabin pressure as this would tell you if you have a gas leak into the cabin. Also I would log the data more frequently say every 10 minutes to improve data analysis. You have nothing better to do while sitting in the boat. Also you might want to consider repeating the test with a low weight pilot to see how the system handle variation in CO2 generation and O2 consumption rates. >>> >>> Keep up the good work. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> I did a life support test today ! Basically I threw a small party with a couple of friends and my wife. I was sealed in the sub for a total of about 2 1/2 hours . >>>> >>>> At the hatch closing time the readings were: >>>> >>>> O2 - 20.6 % CO2 1225 ppm Temp 79 F Humidity 50 % >>>> >>>> In one hour the readings were: >>>> >>>> O2 - 21.4 % CO2 1365 ppm Temp79 humidity 63 % >>>> >>>> At hour 2 readings were: >>>> >>>> O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1750 ppm Temp 77 F humidity 70 % >>>> >>>> After 2 1/2 hours readings were : >>>> >>>> O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1785 ppm Temp 76 humidity 70 % >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test >>>> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100 >>>> Hi Alan, >>>> Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go. >>>> >>>> I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up). >>>> >>>> If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Steve, >>>>> you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape. >>>>> Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking >>>>> 1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend. >>>>> I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group might >>>>> confirm this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you could >>>>> drink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen. >>>>> For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth. >>>>> I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz) >>>>> How deep is Scott going? >>>>> Cheers Alan >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Brian and all, >>>>>> I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. >>>>>> >>>>>> To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Steve Fordyce >>>>>> >>>>>> On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> See >>>>>>> >>>>>>> DESIGN GUIDELINES FOR >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> >>>>>>> MAY 1983 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> REVISED JULY 1985 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Prepared by >>>>>>> >>>>>>> M. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON >>>>>>> >>>>>>> for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cliff >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>> Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 % ? >>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 20 16:48:29 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 13:48:29 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Message-ID: <20180320134829.B47DFA59@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 20 18:07:51 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 22:07:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: <20180320134829.B47DFA59@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20180320134829.B47DFA59@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <909769094.4306696.1521583672350@mail.yahoo.com> Interesting...how are you powering it.? The manual says it is powered by a wall-wart. From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Sean,?? My CO2 sensor is this one :? https://www.co2meter.com/products/tim10-desktop-co2-temp-humidity-monitor? 1) Rise time to 5000 ppm under typical CO2 production with scrubber disabled.? ????????? and O2 disabled ??? With O2 not disabled would increase cabin pressure.?2) Rise time to steady state under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, and characterization of steady state CO2 level,?????? You should add " with O2 enabled ! "?3) Time to scrubber breakthrough (5000 ppm) under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, 3) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to steady state value after enabling fresh scrubber,?????????? This seems a little dicey,? level could go well above 5000 ppm? temporarily?4) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to zero (or <400 ppm) with no CO2 production.????????? I would have to get out of the sub at 5000 ppm ,? might that not stir up the air?? ?Brian?? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:35:12 -0400 Brian - What CO2 sensor are you using? Do you have the technical specs available? As Cliff suggests, a calibration may be in order. Assuming you can trust the sensor readings, there are a few tests I would do: 1) Rise time to 5000 ppm under typical CO2 production with scrubber disabled. 2) Rise time to steady state under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, and characterization of steady state CO2 level, 3) Time to scrubber breakthrough (5000 ppm) under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, 3) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to steady state value after enabling fresh scrubber, 4) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to zero (or <400 ppm) with no CO2 production. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 19, 2018, 09:26, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Good point.? I did not pick up on that.? As you say at hatch close it should have been around 400 ppm.? CO2 sensor may need calibration. Cliff On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am wondering about the apparent offset in the CO2 reading. You indicate a reading of 1225 ppm at hatch close. Assuming that this was the initial pretest reading before commencing any CO2 production in the closed environment, shouldn't that be closer to the 400 ppm typical of atmospheric air? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 19, 2018, 08:30, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Looks like progress on qualifying your life support system.? A couple of observations.? Your scrubber looks like it is controlling the CO2 level nicely.? Humidity build looks normal.? If you would have stayed in the boat longer, it would eventually plateau.? The only thing that looks a little weak to me is the O2 concentration.? It looks like your O2 makeup rate was a bit high, i.e., you are making up more O2 than you are consuming.? If you looked at your results on a linear basis, the O2 would have reach the maximum acceptable ABS O2 concentration of 23% at 3.75 hours.? Well?short of the ABS 72?hour target.? Not sure how you are controlling O2 makeup.? The next thing I would do is do a longer test say 8-9 hours or how ever long it takes for your initial fill of CO2 absorbent to become saturated.? The next test I would suggest is how long does it take for CO2 to build to 5000 ppm when O2 if off.? Would also suggest you measure and report cabin pressure as this would tell you if you have a gas leak into the cabin.? Also I would log the data more frequently say every 10 minutes to improve data analysis.? You have ?nothing better to do while sitting in the boat.? Also you might want to consider repeating the test with a low weight pilot to see how the system handle variation in CO2 generation and O2 consumption rates. Keep up the good work. Cliff On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,?????????????? I did?a life support test today !?? Basically I threw a small party with a couple of friends and my wife.? I was sealed in the sub for a total of about 2 1/2 hours?.???? At the hatch closing time the readings were:?O2? -??? 20.6 %????? CO2 1225 ppm????????? Temp 79 F????????? Humidity??? 50 %??In one hour the readings were:?O2?? -? 21.4?%???????????? CO2? 1365 ppm????????? Temp79?????????? humidity??? 63 %??At hour 2? readings were:?O2?? -?? 22.2 %?????????????? CO2? 1750 ppm????????? Temp 77 F????????? humidity? 70 %??After? 2 1/2 hours readings were :?O2? -??? 22.2 %??????????????? CO2? 1785 ppm??????????? Temp 76??????????? humidity?? 70 %? ??Brian????????? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100 Hi Alan,Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go. I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up).?? If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. Cheers,Steve On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Steve,you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape.Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend.I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group mightconfirm ?this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you coulddrink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen.For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth.I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz)How deep is Scott going?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian and all,I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. Cheers,Steve Fordyce On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: See DESIGN GUIDELINES FORCARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERSIMAY 1983REVISED JULY 1985Prepared byM. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON for the philological affects of high CO2 level but?if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe.??In addition to the CO2 issues,?you should also familrrize?yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and ?hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come?from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and?hyperoic state?would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of?O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting.? I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. Cliff On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,????????????? Thinking about testing my life support.? Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio.? But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2? gets to a certain point .?? If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ??? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 %??? ????? ?Brian?? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 20 18:26:16 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 22:26:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: <20180320134829.B47DFA59@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20180320134829.B47DFA59@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2090591485.4337760.1521584776661@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, in general, exposure to more than 5000ppm for a short period is not going to kill you.? You have to get to 30000 or 40000 ppm before life threatening issues arise.? OSHA workplace limit is 8 hours at 5000ppm, and even then it's not a limit because it is going to kill you due to exposure, it's a limit because you can become drowsy, lean over and get your hair caught in a machine and get scalped.? So for test #3 the exposure may go over 5000ppm temporarily but not for an extended period of time assuming your scrubber is working correctly. From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Sean,?? My CO2 sensor is this one :? https://www.co2meter.com/products/tim10-desktop-co2-temp-humidity-monitor? 1) Rise time to 5000 ppm under typical CO2 production with scrubber disabled.? ????????? and O2 disabled ??? With O2 not disabled would increase cabin pressure.?2) Rise time to steady state under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, and characterization of steady state CO2 level,?????? You should add " with O2 enabled ! "?3) Time to scrubber breakthrough (5000 ppm) under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, 3) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to steady state value after enabling fresh scrubber,?????????? This seems a little dicey,? level could go well above 5000 ppm? temporarily?4) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to zero (or <400 ppm) with no CO2 production.????????? I would have to get out of the sub at 5000 ppm ,? might that not stir up the air?? ?Brian?? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:35:12 -0400 Brian - What CO2 sensor are you using? Do you have the technical specs available? As Cliff suggests, a calibration may be in order. Assuming you can trust the sensor readings, there are a few tests I would do: 1) Rise time to 5000 ppm under typical CO2 production with scrubber disabled. 2) Rise time to steady state under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, and characterization of steady state CO2 level, 3) Time to scrubber breakthrough (5000 ppm) under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, 3) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to steady state value after enabling fresh scrubber, 4) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to zero (or <400 ppm) with no CO2 production. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 19, 2018, 09:26, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Good point.? I did not pick up on that.? As you say at hatch close it should have been around 400 ppm.? CO2 sensor may need calibration. Cliff On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am wondering about the apparent offset in the CO2 reading. You indicate a reading of 1225 ppm at hatch close. Assuming that this was the initial pretest reading before commencing any CO2 production in the closed environment, shouldn't that be closer to the 400 ppm typical of atmospheric air? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 19, 2018, 08:30, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Looks like progress on qualifying your life support system.? A couple of observations.? Your scrubber looks like it is controlling the CO2 level nicely.? Humidity build looks normal.? If you would have stayed in the boat longer, it would eventually plateau.? The only thing that looks a little weak to me is the O2 concentration.? It looks like your O2 makeup rate was a bit high, i.e., you are making up more O2 than you are consuming.? If you looked at your results on a linear basis, the O2 would have reach the maximum acceptable ABS O2 concentration of 23% at 3.75 hours.? Well?short of the ABS 72?hour target.? Not sure how you are controlling O2 makeup.? The next thing I would do is do a longer test say 8-9 hours or how ever long it takes for your initial fill of CO2 absorbent to become saturated.? The next test I would suggest is how long does it take for CO2 to build to 5000 ppm when O2 if off.? Would also suggest you measure and report cabin pressure as this would tell you if you have a gas leak into the cabin.? Also I would log the data more frequently say every 10 minutes to improve data analysis.? You have ?nothing better to do while sitting in the boat.? Also you might want to consider repeating the test with a low weight pilot to see how the system handle variation in CO2 generation and O2 consumption rates. Keep up the good work. Cliff On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,?????????????? I did?a life support test today !?? Basically I threw a small party with a couple of friends and my wife.? I was sealed in the sub for a total of about 2 1/2 hours?.???? At the hatch closing time the readings were:?O2? -??? 20.6 %????? CO2 1225 ppm????????? Temp 79 F????????? Humidity??? 50 %??In one hour the readings were:?O2?? -? 21.4?%???????????? CO2? 1365 ppm????????? Temp79?????????? humidity??? 63 %??At hour 2? readings were:?O2?? -?? 22.2 %?????????????? CO2? 1750 ppm????????? Temp 77 F????????? humidity? 70 %??After? 2 1/2 hours readings were :?O2? -??? 22.2 %??????????????? CO2? 1785 ppm??????????? Temp 76??????????? humidity?? 70 %? ??Brian????????? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100 Hi Alan,Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go. I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up).?? If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. Cheers,Steve On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Steve,you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape.Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend.I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group mightconfirm ?this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you coulddrink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen.For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth.I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz)How deep is Scott going?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian and all,I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. Cheers,Steve Fordyce On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: See DESIGN GUIDELINES FORCARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERSIMAY 1983REVISED JULY 1985Prepared byM. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON for the philological affects of high CO2 level but?if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe.??In addition to the CO2 issues,?you should also familrrize?yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and ?hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come?from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and?hyperoic state?would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of?O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting.? I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. Cliff On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,????????????? Thinking about testing my life support.? Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio.? But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2? gets to a certain point .?? If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ??? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 %??? ????? ?Brian?? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 20 19:06:30 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 16:06:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Message-ID: <20180320160630.B47AA2EE@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 20 19:44:20 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 23:44:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test In-Reply-To: <20180320160630.B47AA2EE@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20180320160630.B47AA2EE@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <374763999.4381147.1521589460381@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, never ever run you scrubber with the O2 off, that is my own rule. ?Both on or both off !!!!! ??Hank On Tuesday, March 20, 2018, 5:06:49 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It runs on 5V dc current.? I just put a voltage converter from my 12 hotel battery.? I believe Hank is using the same unit.?Point taken with the CO2 levels?.? I'm curious how the rise of CO2 relates to the consumption of oxygen.? If I have no oxygen?supplied and am just using up the?cabin oxygen?what will the O2 level be when the CO2 level is at 5000 ppm ??? Obviously varies depending on the size of the cabin.? In a tiny cabin like Cliff's R300 I imagine levels change much more rapidly. ?Brian???? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 22:07:51 +0000 (UTC) Interesting...how are you powering it.? The manual says it is powered by a wall-wart. From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Sean,?? My CO2 sensor is this one :? https://www.co2meter.com/products/tim10-desktop-co2-temp-humidity-monitor? 1) Rise time to 5000 ppm under typical CO2 production with scrubber disabled.? ????????? and O2 disabled ??? With O2 not disabled would increase cabin pressure.?2) Rise time to steady state under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, and characterization of steady state CO2 level,?????? You should add " with O2 enabled ! "?3) Time to scrubber breakthrough (5000 ppm) under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, 3) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to steady state value after enabling fresh scrubber,?????????? This seems a little dicey,? level could go well above 5000 ppm? temporarily?4) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to zero (or <400 ppm) with no CO2 production.????????? I would have to get out of the sub at 5000 ppm ,? might that not stir up the air?? ?Brian?? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:35:12 -0400 Brian - What CO2 sensor are you using? Do you have the technical specs available? As Cliff suggests, a calibration may be in order. Assuming you can trust the sensor readings, there are a few tests I would do: 1) Rise time to 5000 ppm under typical CO2 production with scrubber disabled. 2) Rise time to steady state under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, and characterization of steady state CO2 level, 3) Time to scrubber breakthrough (5000 ppm) under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, 3) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to steady state value after enabling fresh scrubber, 4) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to zero (or <400 ppm) with no CO2 production. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 19, 2018, 09:26, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Good point.? I did not pick up on that.? As you say at hatch close it should have been around 400 ppm.? CO2 sensor may need calibration. Cliff On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am wondering about the apparent offset in the CO2 reading. You indicate a reading of 1225 ppm at hatch close. Assuming that this was the initial pretest reading before commencing any CO2 production in the closed environment, shouldn't that be closer to the 400 ppm typical of atmospheric air? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 19, 2018, 08:30, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Looks like progress on qualifying your life support system.? A couple of observations.? Your scrubber looks like it is controlling the CO2 level nicely.? Humidity build looks normal.? If you would have stayed in the boat longer, it would eventually plateau.? The only thing that looks a little weak to me is the O2 concentration.? It looks like your O2 makeup rate was a bit high, i.e., you are making up more O2 than you are consuming.? If you looked at your results on a linear basis, the O2 would have reach the maximum acceptable ABS O2 concentration of 23% at 3.75 hours.? Well?short of the ABS 72?hour target.? Not sure how you are controlling O2 makeup.? The next thing I would do is do a longer test say 8-9 hours or how ever long it takes for your initial fill of CO2 absorbent to become saturated.? The next test I would suggest is how long does it take for CO2 to build to 5000 ppm when O2 if off.? Would also suggest you measure and report cabin pressure as this would tell you if you have a gas leak into the cabin.? Also I would log the data more frequently say every 10 minutes to improve data analysis.? You have ?nothing better to do while sitting in the boat.? Also you might want to consider repeating the test with a low weight pilot to see how the system handle variation in CO2 generation and O2 consumption rates. Keep up the good work. Cliff On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,?????????????? I did?a life support test today !?? Basically I threw a small party with a couple of friends and my wife.? I was sealed in the sub for a total of about 2 1/2 hours?.???? At the hatch closing time the readings were:?O2? -??? 20.6 %????? CO2 1225 ppm????????? Temp 79 F????????? Humidity??? 50 %??In one hour the readings were:?O2?? -? 21.4?%???????????? CO2? 1365 ppm????????? Temp79?????????? humidity??? 63 %??At hour 2? readings were:?O2?? -?? 22.2 %?????????????? CO2? 1750 ppm????????? Temp 77 F????????? humidity? 70 %??After? 2 1/2 hours readings were :?O2? -??? 22.2 %??????????????? CO2? 1785 ppm??????????? Temp 76??????????? humidity?? 70 %? ??Brian????????? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100 Hi Alan,Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go. I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up).?? If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be. Cheers,Steve On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Steve,you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape.Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend.I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group mightconfirm ?this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you coulddrink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen.For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth.I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz)How deep is Scott going?Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Brian and all,I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know. To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far. If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing. Cheers,Steve Fordyce On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: See DESIGN GUIDELINES FORCARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERSIMAY 1983REVISED JULY 1985Prepared byM. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON for the philological affects of high CO2 level but?if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe.??In addition to the CO2 issues,?you should also familrrize?yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and ?hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come?from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and?hyperoic state?would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of?O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting.? I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS. When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity. Cliff On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,????????????? Thinking about testing my life support.? Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio.? But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2? gets to a certain point .?? If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ??? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 %??? ????? ?Brian?? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 20 19:50:54 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 16:50:54 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Message-ID: <20180320165054.B47A16B6@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 20 20:29:10 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 17:29:10 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test Message-ID: <572820261.23571.1521592150966@wamui-esmeralda.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 20 21:17:17 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 15:17:17 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] oxygen meter Message-ID: was wondering what kind of 12 volt oxygen meters others are using? Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 22 16:55:16 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 21:55:16 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] min hunter ROV Message-ID: <010101d3c220$14c25b20$3e471160$@nl> FYI, ROV for sale. https://www.trucks.nl/nl/tweedehands-div-duik-inspectie-boot-sonar-1820093-v d This type was used by the Dutch navy for mine hunting. Best regards, Emile D.L. van Essen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 24 00:27:14 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 18:27:14 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms Message-ID: I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that? Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 24 06:39:21 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 10:39:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an Arduino microprocessor.? They are manufactured by Analytical Industries and distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two years. I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than 100 feet. Jon From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: psubs chat room Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that??Rick_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 24 12:55:10 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 16:55:10 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Jon Yeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. If that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my design depth! Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were using? Rick On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, > however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to > use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an > Arduino microprocessor. They are manufactured by Analytical Industries and > distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two > years. > > I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than > 100 feet. > > Jon > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* psubs chat room > *Sent:* Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms > > I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 > volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? > Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at > OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard > conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that? > Rick > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 24 14:12:17 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 18:12:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: References: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1298766591.311321.1521915137336@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, I did not comment to your post about 12V O2 meter because I use a Altair 4 meter in fact I have 2 of them. ?One is a backup. ?You can get them on Ebay all day long with a fresh calibration. ?I have my own calibration kit ;-) ?it was given to me. ?The meter is fantastic and has alarms that can NOT be ignored.Hank On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 10:55:39 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks JonYeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. If that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my design depth!Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were using?Rick? On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an Arduino microprocessor.? They are manufactured by Analytical Industries and distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two years. I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than 100 feet. Jon From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: psubs chat room Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that??Rick_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 24 14:43:30 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 07:43:30 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: References: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9B6EA12C-28D8-4A09-923E-815AC561AD24@yahoo.com> Rick, there is the Famous Elcheapo O2 analysing kit, that you assemble. The cost is not a lot more than the included sensor. I am not sure of the voltage, but would guess you would use a 9V battery. https://www.oxycheq.com/el-cheapo-ii-analyzer-kit.html Alan Sent from my iPad > On 25/03/2018, at 5:55 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Jon > Yeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. If that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my design depth! > Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were using? > Rick > >> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an Arduino microprocessor. They are manufactured by Analytical Industries and distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two years. >> >> I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than 100 feet. >> >> Jon >> >> >> From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> To: psubs chat room >> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms >> >> I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that? >> Rick >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 24 15:03:27 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 08:03:27 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: <9B6EA12C-28D8-4A09-923E-815AC561AD24@yahoo.com> References: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> <9B6EA12C-28D8-4A09-923E-815AC561AD24@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <29E86D8B-78B2-4075-B144-B1E52A7156CB@yahoo.com> Rick, I did receive the original post, but like Jon & Cliff I am going to use a computer to receive the signal from my sensors. It sounds fancy, but instead of having several sensors for O2, CO2, pressure, humidity, temperature, water temperature etc with their individual electronics & display units, you can pick the sensors up reasonably cheaply & use the one computer& display screen for all. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 25/03/2018, at 7:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Rick, > there is the Famous Elcheapo O2 analysing kit, that you assemble. > The cost is not a lot more than the included sensor. > I am not sure of the voltage, but would guess you would use a 9V > battery. > https://www.oxycheq.com/el-cheapo-ii-analyzer-kit.html > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 25/03/2018, at 5:55 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Thanks Jon >> Yeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. If that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my design depth! >> Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were using? >> Rick >> >>> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an Arduino microprocessor. They are manufactured by Analytical Industries and distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two years. >>> >>> I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than 100 feet. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: psubs chat room >>> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms >>> >>> I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that? >>> Rick >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 24 15:49:46 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 09:49:46 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: <29E86D8B-78B2-4075-B144-B1E52A7156CB@yahoo.com> References: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> <9B6EA12C-28D8-4A09-923E-815AC561AD24@yahoo.com> <29E86D8B-78B2-4075-B144-B1E52A7156CB@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks guys, since I didn't hear anything back at all from my post, I figured it didn't go out properly. I plan on keeping it as simple as possible regarding lap tops and things hooked up to it as that stuff is way out of my league! Rick On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > I did receive the original post, but like Jon & Cliff I am going to > use a computer to receive the signal from my sensors. > It sounds fancy, but instead of having several sensors for O2, > CO2, pressure, humidity, temperature, water temperature etc > with their individual electronics & display units, you can pick the > sensors up reasonably cheaply & use the one computer& display > screen for all. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 25/03/2018, at 7:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > there is the Famous Elcheapo O2 analysing kit, that you assemble. > The cost is not a lot more than the included sensor. > I am not sure of the voltage, but would guess you would use a 9V > battery. > https://www.oxycheq.com/el-cheapo-ii-analyzer-kit.html > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 25/03/2018, at 5:55 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Jon > Yeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. > If that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my > design depth! > Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were > using? > Rick > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, >> however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to >> use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an >> Arduino microprocessor. They are manufactured by Analytical Industries and >> distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two >> years. >> >> I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more >> than 100 feet. >> >> Jon >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *To:* psubs chat room >> *Sent:* Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms >> >> I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 >> volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? >> Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at >> OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard >> conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that? >> Rick >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 24 16:03:31 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 20:03:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: References: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> <9B6EA12C-28D8-4A09-923E-815AC561AD24@yahoo.com> <29E86D8B-78B2-4075-B144-B1E52A7156CB@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1048167591.386379.1521921811422@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,You can also buy a O2 meter that just tells you when the O2 is low or high but does not give percentage. ?They are pretty cheap. ?Hank On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 1:50:06 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks guys,since I didn't hear anything back at all from my post, I figured it didn't go out properly. I plan on keeping it as simple as possible regarding lap tops and things hooked up to it as that stuff is way out of my league!?Rick On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,I did receive the original post, but like Jon & Cliff I am going touse a computer to receive the signal from my sensors.? ?It sounds fancy, but instead of having several sensors for O2,CO2, pressure, humidity, temperature, water temperature etcwith their individual electronics & display units, you can pick thesensors up reasonably cheaply & use the one computer& display?screen for all.Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/03/2018, at 7:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,there is the Famous Elcheapo O2 analysing kit, that you assemble.The cost is not a lot more than the included sensor.?I am not sure of the voltage, but would guess you would use a 9Vbattery.?https://www.oxycheq.com/el- cheapo-ii-analyzer-kit.htmlAlan Sent from my iPad On 25/03/2018, at 5:55 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks JonYeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. If that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my design depth!Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were using?Rick? On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an Arduino microprocessor.? They are manufactured by Analytical Industries and distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two years. I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than 100 feet. Jon From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: psubs chat room Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that??Rick______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 24 16:08:49 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 10:08:49 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: <1048167591.386379.1521921811422@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> <9B6EA12C-28D8-4A09-923E-815AC561AD24@yahoo.com> <29E86D8B-78B2-4075-B144-B1E52A7156CB@yahoo.com> <1048167591.386379.1521921811422@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, how can I read up on them and get costs? Rick On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 10:03 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > You can also buy a O2 meter that just tells you when the O2 is low or high > but does not give percentage. They are pretty cheap. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 1:50:06 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks guys, > since I didn't hear anything back at all from my post, I figured it didn't > go out properly. I plan on keeping it as simple as possible regarding lap > tops and things hooked up to it as that stuff is way out of my league! > Rick > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > I did receive the original post, but like Jon & Cliff I am going to > use a computer to receive the signal from my sensors. > It sounds fancy, but instead of having several sensors for O2, > CO2, pressure, humidity, temperature, water temperature etc > with their individual electronics & display units, you can pick the > sensors up reasonably cheaply & use the one computer& display > screen for all. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 25/03/2018, at 7:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Rick, > there is the Famous Elcheapo O2 analysing kit, that you assemble. > The cost is not a lot more than the included sensor. > I am not sure of the voltage, but would guess you would use a 9V > battery. > https://www.oxycheq.com/el- cheapo-ii-analyzer-kit.html > > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 25/03/2018, at 5:55 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > Thanks Jon > Yeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. > If that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my > design depth! > Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were > using? > Rick > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, > however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to > use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an > Arduino microprocessor. They are manufactured by Analytical Industries and > distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two > years. > > I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than > 100 feet. > > Jon > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org > > *To:* psubs chat room > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms > > I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 > volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? > Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at > OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard > conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that? > Rick > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 24 18:45:41 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 22:45:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: References: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> <9B6EA12C-28D8-4A09-923E-815AC561AD24@yahoo.com> <29E86D8B-78B2-4075-B144-B1E52A7156CB@yahoo.com> <1048167591.386379.1521921811422@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1279423793.429929.1521931541609@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,Just Google "confined space O2 meter."Hank On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 2:09:09 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,how can I read up on them and get costs?Rick On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 10:03 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,You can also buy a O2 meter that just tells you when the O2 is low or high but does not give percentage.? They are pretty cheap. ?Hank On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 1:50:06 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks guys,since I didn't hear anything back at all from my post, I figured it didn't go out properly. I plan on keeping it as simple as possible regarding lap tops and things hooked up to it as that stuff is way out of my league!?Rick On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,I did receive the original post, but like Jon & Cliff I am going touse a computer to receive the signal from my sensors.? ?It sounds fancy, but instead of having several sensors for O2,CO2, pressure, humidity, temperature, water temperature etcwith their individual electronics & display units, you can pick thesensors up reasonably cheaply & use the one computer& display?screen for all.Alan Sent from my iPad On 25/03/2018, at 7:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,there is the Famous Elcheapo O2 analysing kit, that you assemble.The cost is not a lot more than the included sensor.?I am not sure of the voltage, but would guess you would use a 9Vbattery.?https://www.oxycheq.com/el- cheapo-ii-analyzer-kit.htmlAlan Sent from my iPad On 25/03/2018, at 5:55 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks JonYeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. If that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my design depth!Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were using?Rick? On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an Arduino microprocessor.? They are manufactured by Analytical Industries and distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two years. I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than 100 feet. Jon From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: psubs chat room Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that??Rick______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 09:21:00 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 13:21:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bunk Trailer References: <569363495.574200.1521984060698.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <569363495.574200.1521984060698@mail.yahoo.com> Anybody tried a bunk style boat trailer with a K-SUB?? ?Seems most everyone is using a flat-bed style trailer but it seems like bunks could be positioned to have the sub come up quite nicely.? I'm curious about drag though it doesn't seem like the bunks on epoxy painted metal would be any worse than a fiberglas hull. Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 10:57:56 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 14:57:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bunk Trailer In-Reply-To: <569363495.574200.1521984060698@mail.yahoo.com> References: <569363495.574200.1521984060698.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <569363495.574200.1521984060698@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <925220253.599909.1521989877006@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,Gamma rides on a 26 foot bunk style boat railer. ?That style of trailer is the lowest for shallow launches . ?Also buy the longest trailer you can handle, not just for easy launching but for safe towing. ?Gamma is 6,000 lbs and I tow it and forget it is behind me. ? Nothing worse than the trailer whipping around because it is to short. ?Well okay hitting your ?shin on your trailer hitch might be worse ;-)Hank On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 7:21:25 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Anybody tried a bunk style boat trailer with a K-SUB?? ?Seems most everyone is using a flat-bed style trailer but it seems like bunks could be positioned to have the sub come up quite nicely.? I'm curious about drag though it doesn't seem like the bunks on epoxy painted metal would be any worse than a fiberglas hull. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 11:09:15 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 15:09:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1712799629.593425.1521990555052@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, this is the O2 meter I use, I had tow of them given to me from a friend. ?Before that I used the 130 dollar O2 meter and that was okay but I always wondered where the O2 level was. ?I would recommend a meter like the one in this listing because your not guessing. ?This meter is also very tough and the O2 sensor is easy to change and pretty cheap.Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018, 9:04:14 AM MDTSubject: MSA altair 4X multi gas Meter Monitor detector, Confined Space Monitor https://www.ebay.com/itm/MSA-altair-4X-multi-gas-Meter-Monitor-detector-Confined-Space-Monitor/323137894921?hash=item4b3c84fa09:g:0-cAAOSwcgNZBtof -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 12:29:10 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 16:29:10 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1712799629.593425.1521990555052@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1712799629.593425.1521990555052@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hank Sounds like I need to find some new friends. Those are nice units and I agree, I would like to see the accurate current state of 02 at all times rather than when it reaches its limits. I?ll call them tomorrow. Rick. On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 5:10 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, this is the O2 meter I use, I had tow of them given to me from a > friend. Before that I used the 130 dollar O2 meter and that was okay but I > always wondered where the O2 level was. I would recommend a meter like the > one in this listing because your not guessing. This meter is also very > tough and the O2 sensor is easy to change and pretty cheap. > Hank > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > *From:* xxx xxxxx > *To:* hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca > *Sent:* Sunday, March 25, 2018, 9:04:14 AM MDT > *Subject:* > > MSA altair 4X multi gas Meter Monitor detector, Confined Space Monitor > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/MSA-altair-4X-multi-gas-Meter-Monitor-detector-Confined-Space-Monitor/323137894921?hash=item4b3c84fa09:g:0-cAAOSwcgNZBtof > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 14:37:57 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 18:37:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bunk Trailer In-Reply-To: <925220253.599909.1521989877006@mail.yahoo.com> References: <569363495.574200.1521984060698.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <569363495.574200.1521984060698@mail.yahoo.com> <925220253.599909.1521989877006@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1845979515.608474.1522003077707@mail.yahoo.com> Already got it and it's a 26 footer as well, I will have to learn to drive slower.? I've got a Toyota Tacoma and the 6000 GVW will be at the Tacoma's max pulling limit so I am sure I will not forget it will be behind me.? :) :) I looked at Gamma on your trailer but noticed it's not cradled by bunks, I don't think.? You have removed the bunks and it sits on some...I don't know...channels?? Did you try cradling the hull by wooden bunks? Jon From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bunk Trailer Jon,Gamma rides on a 26 foot bunk style boat railer. ?That style of trailer is the lowest for shallow launches . ?Also buy the longest trailer you can handle, not just for easy launching but for safe towing. ?Gamma is 6,000 lbs and I tow it and forget it is behind me. ? Nothing worse than the trailer whipping around because it is to short. ?Well okay hitting your ?shin on your trailer hitch might be worse ;-)Hank On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 7:21:25 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Anybody tried a bunk style boat trailer with a K-SUB?? ?Seems most everyone is using a flat-bed style trailer but it seems like bunks could be positioned to have the sub come up quite nicely.? I'm curious about drag though it doesn't seem like the bunks on epoxy painted metal would be any worse than a fiberglas hull. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 15:19:53 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 19:19:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bunk Trailer In-Reply-To: <1845979515.608474.1522003077707@mail.yahoo.com> References: <569363495.574200.1521984060698.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <569363495.574200.1521984060698@mail.yahoo.com> <925220253.599909.1521989877006@mail.yahoo.com> <1845979515.608474.1522003077707@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <640362317.653351.1522005593740@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,Your 26 foot trailer is perfect given your light truck. ?I removed the bunks, because Gamma sits on the flat battery box that protrudes under the hull. ?I had to add an extra crossmember to the trailer to support the weight. ?I have a 2 by 12 plank on the cross members for Gamma to sit on. ?Wood is good so the sub doesn't slide as easy and I needed the 1.5 inch lift to get the sub above the axels. ?I assume you will weld some brackets and channel to the trailer frame for your rollers under the battery pods. ?Do ?you have rollers under? ?If not, I would put two at the front end of the pods, I put one at the front and it is a dream. ?The sub comes onto the trailer sitting level, while the trailer is on an angle. ?There is no need for rollers at the back, and the front rollers don't need to be below the pods because of the angle of attack, then they don't interfere with the sub sitting on the floor.Hank On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 12:38:19 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Already got it and it's a 26 footer as well, I will have to learn to drive slower.? I've got a Toyota Tacoma and the 6000 GVW will be at the Tacoma's max pulling limit so I am sure I will not forget it will be behind me.? :) :) I looked at Gamma on your trailer but noticed it's not cradled by bunks, I don't think.? You have removed the bunks and it sits on some...I don't know...channels?? Did you try cradling the hull by wooden bunks? Jon From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bunk Trailer Jon,Gamma rides on a 26 foot bunk style boat railer. ?That style of trailer is the lowest for shallow launches . ?Also buy the longest trailer you can handle, not just for easy launching but for safe towing. ?Gamma is 6,000 lbs and I tow it and forget it is behind me. ? Nothing worse than the trailer whipping around because it is to short. ?Well okay hitting your ?shin on your trailer hitch might be worse ;-)Hank On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 7:21:25 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Anybody tried a bunk style boat trailer with a K-SUB?? ?Seems most everyone is using a flat-bed style trailer but it seems like bunks could be positioned to have the sub come up quite nicely.? I'm curious about drag though it doesn't seem like the bunks on epoxy painted metal would be any worse than a fiberglas hull. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 15:35:11 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 19:35:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bunk Trailer In-Reply-To: <640362317.653351.1522005593740@mail.yahoo.com> References: <569363495.574200.1521984060698.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <569363495.574200.1521984060698@mail.yahoo.com> <925220253.599909.1521989877006@mail.yahoo.com> <1845979515.608474.1522003077707@mail.yahoo.com> <640362317.653351.1522005593740@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1962417524.654578.1522006511536@mail.yahoo.com> The 600 has rollers lengthwise along the bottom of the battery pod, about 54 inches worth I believe.? I could go the channel route, but no, I am hoping the bunks will cradle the hull and be high enough to allow the batter pods to dangle underneath.? So essentially, I'm saying the submarine will be supported by the bunks and the battery pods will not carry any weight.? My calculations show the two 3x12 bunks should easily support the weight of a dive ready 600, about 4500 pounds.? Bunk span is 8 feet as is, however I could add a crossbeam to support the bunks in the middle and have only 4 foot span between supports. I really have no preference and could easily attach some 4 inch channel to the crossbeams so the battery pods could hold the weight of the sub, but I have a suspicion that the bunks would allow easier loading because with the channel the sub pods would have to be guided pretty accurately over them to sit correctly. Jon From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bunk Trailer Jon,Your 26 foot trailer is perfect given your light truck. ?I removed the bunks, because Gamma sits on the flat battery box that protrudes under the hull. ?I had to add an extra crossmember to the trailer to support the weight. ?I have a 2 by 12 plank on the cross members for Gamma to sit on. ?Wood is good so the sub doesn't slide as easy and I needed the 1.5 inch lift to get the sub above the axels. ?I assume you will weld some brackets and channel to the trailer frame for your rollers under the battery pods. ?Do ?you have rollers under? ?If not, I would put two at the front end of the pods, I put one at the front and it is a dream. ?The sub comes onto the trailer sitting level, while the trailer is on an angle. ?There is no need for rollers at the back, and the front rollers don't need to be below the pods because of the angle of attack, then they don't interfere with the sub sitting on the floor.Hank On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 12:38:19 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Already got it and it's a 26 footer as well, I will have to learn to drive slower.? I've got a Toyota Tacoma and the 6000 GVW will be at the Tacoma's max pulling limit so I am sure I will not forget it will be behind me.? :) :) I looked at Gamma on your trailer but noticed it's not cradled by bunks, I don't think.? You have removed the bunks and it sits on some...I don't know...channels?? Did you try cradling the hull by wooden bunks? Jon From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bunk Trailer Jon,Gamma rides on a 26 foot bunk style boat railer. ?That style of trailer is the lowest for shallow launches . ?Also buy the longest trailer you can handle, not just for easy launching but for safe towing. ?Gamma is 6,000 lbs and I tow it and forget it is behind me. ? Nothing worse than the trailer whipping around because it is to short. ?Well okay hitting your ?shin on your trailer hitch might be worse ;-)Hank On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 7:21:25 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Anybody tried a bunk style boat trailer with a K-SUB?? ?Seems most everyone is using a flat-bed style trailer but it seems like bunks could be positioned to have the sub come up quite nicely.? I'm curious about drag though it doesn't seem like the bunks on epoxy painted metal would be any worse than a fiberglas hull. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 15:41:45 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 19:41:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bunk Trailer In-Reply-To: <1962417524.654578.1522006511536@mail.yahoo.com> References: <569363495.574200.1521984060698.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <569363495.574200.1521984060698@mail.yahoo.com> <925220253.599909.1521989877006@mail.yahoo.com> <1845979515.608474.1522003077707@mail.yahoo.com> <640362317.653351.1522005593740@mail.yahoo.com> <1962417524.654578.1522006511536@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <520999673.657563.1522006905784@mail.yahoo.com> Jon, I agree, if your alone especially, accurate loading in wind etc might be tough. ?You could do like I did and have upright posts to guide the sub on. ?Most boats use that system. ?I would defiantly cut that span down with a cross member. ?An additional cross member will also distribute the load better to the main trailer frame. ?Our subs are short and heavy compared to a boat that may be as heavy but much longer.Hank On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 1:35:33 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The 600 has rollers lengthwise along the bottom of the battery pod, about 54 inches worth I believe.? I could go the channel route, but no, I am hoping the bunks will cradle the hull and be high enough to allow the batter pods to dangle underneath.? So essentially, I'm saying the submarine will be supported by the bunks and the battery pods will not carry any weight.? My calculations show the two 3x12 bunks should easily support the weight of a dive ready 600, about 4500 pounds.? Bunk span is 8 feet as is, however I could add a crossbeam to support the bunks in the middle and have only 4 foot span between supports. I really have no preference and could easily attach some 4 inch channel to the crossbeams so the battery pods could hold the weight of the sub, but I have a suspicion that the bunks would allow easier loading because with the channel the sub pods would have to be guided pretty accurately over them to sit correctly. Jon From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bunk Trailer Jon,Your 26 foot trailer is perfect given your light truck. ?I removed the bunks, because Gamma sits on the flat battery box that protrudes under the hull. ?I had to add an extra crossmember to the trailer to support the weight. ?I have a 2 by 12 plank on the cross members for Gamma to sit on. ?Wood is good so the sub doesn't slide as easy and I needed the 1.5 inch lift to get the sub above the axels. ?I assume you will weld some brackets and channel to the trailer frame for your rollers under the battery pods. ?Do ?you have rollers under? ?If not, I would put two at the front end of the pods, I put one at the front and it is a dream. ?The sub comes onto the trailer sitting level, while the trailer is on an angle. ?There is no need for rollers at the back, and the front rollers don't need to be below the pods because of the angle of attack, then they don't interfere with the sub sitting on the floor.Hank On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 12:38:19 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Already got it and it's a 26 footer as well, I will have to learn to drive slower.? I've got a Toyota Tacoma and the 6000 GVW will be at the Tacoma's max pulling limit so I am sure I will not forget it will be behind me.? :) :) I looked at Gamma on your trailer but noticed it's not cradled by bunks, I don't think.? You have removed the bunks and it sits on some...I don't know...channels?? Did you try cradling the hull by wooden bunks? Jon From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bunk Trailer Jon,Gamma rides on a 26 foot bunk style boat railer. ?That style of trailer is the lowest for shallow launches . ?Also buy the longest trailer you can handle, not just for easy launching but for safe towing. ?Gamma is 6,000 lbs and I tow it and forget it is behind me. ? Nothing worse than the trailer whipping around because it is to short. ?Well okay hitting your ?shin on your trailer hitch might be worse ;-)Hank On Sunday, March 25, 2018, 7:21:25 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Anybody tried a bunk style boat trailer with a K-SUB?? ?Seems most everyone is using a flat-bed style trailer but it seems like bunks could be positioned to have the sub come up quite nicely.? I'm curious about drag though it doesn't seem like the bunks on epoxy painted metal would be any worse than a fiberglas hull. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 20:58:55 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 00:58:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines References: <706007263.749430.1522025935609.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <706007263.749430.1522025935609@mail.yahoo.com> I'm interested in applying a "ship prefix" to the name of my vessel and would like to hear opinions on something we might adopt as a group, eventually creating a standard.? Existing, prefixes that might apply: MV - Motor VesselMS - Motor ShipRV - Research Vessel (for some of you)DSV - Deep Submergence Vessel, not sure how "Deep" is defined, but most of our subs surpass normal diving range so might qualify for this designation. Some potential new designations:PSV - Personal Submergence VesselRSV - Recreational Submergence VesselSMV - Submerged Motor Vessel Others?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 21:45:18 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 01:45:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test References: <81909712.753398.1522028718103.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <81909712.753398.1522028718103@mail.yahoo.com> sorry...just a test -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 21:28:21 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 01:28:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines References: <381466115.773625.1522027701482.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <381466115.773625.1522027701482@mail.yahoo.com> I'm interested in applying a "ship prefix" to the name of my vessel and would like to hear opinions on something we might adopt as a group, eventually creating a standard.? Existing, prefixes that might apply: MV - Motor VesselMS - Motor ShipRV - Research Vessel (for some of you)DSV - Deep Submergence Vessel, not sure how "Deep" is defined, but most of our subs surpass normal diving range so might qualify for this designation. Some potential new designations:PSV - Personal Submergence VesselRSV - Recreational Submergence VesselSMV - Submerged Motor Vessel Others?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 22:23:38 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 22:23:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines In-Reply-To: <706007263.749430.1522025935609@mail.yahoo.com> References: <706007263.749430.1522025935609.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <706007263.749430.1522025935609@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <720e1aea-781a-d440-8a14-c242b990dd5d@ohiohills.com> On 3/25/2018 8:58 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I'm interested in applying a "ship prefix" to the name of my vessel > and would like to hear opinions on something we might adopt as a > group, eventually creating a standard. I suggest: S.V. - Submarine (or Submersible) Vessel S.S. - Submarine (or Submersible) Ship /Euronaut /and the like get "S.S.", of course. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 23:30:02 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 20:30:02 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines In-Reply-To: 0HpefEvTzFfdw0HpffPVaU References: <706007263.749430.1522025935609.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <706007263.749430.1522025935609@mail.yahoo.com> 0HpefEvTzFfdw0HpffPVaU Message-ID: <000a01d3c4b2$baaa92c0$2fffb840$@telus.net> A reasonably comprehensive list of ship prefixes can be found on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_prefix How about: Submersible Vessel Personal - SVP Submersible Vessel Recreational - SVR From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 7:24 PM To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines On 3/25/2018 8:58 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm interested in applying a "ship prefix" to the name of my vessel and would like to hear opinions on something we might adopt as a group, eventually creating a standard. I suggest: S.V. - Submarine (or Submersible) Vessel S.S. - Submarine (or Submersible) Ship Euronaut and the like get "S.S.", of course. Virus-free. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 23:46:45 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 20:46:45 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines Message-ID: <2134109520.8943.1522036005481@wamui-esmeralda.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Mar 25 23:54:58 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 20:54:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines Message-ID: <201803260354.w2Q3seOf002424@whoweb.com> S.S. is already designed for Steam Ship. Keith T? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: irox via Personal_Submersibles Date: 3/25/18 8:46 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines Nice idea, I like it. DV - Diving Vessel PDV Powered Diving Vessel -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Mar 25, 2018 5:58 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines I'm interested in applying a "ship prefix" to the name of my vessel and would like to hear opinions on something we might adopt as a group, eventually creating a standard.? Existing, prefixes that might apply: MV - Motor VesselMS - Motor ShipRV - Research Vessel (for some of you)DSV - Deep Submergence Vessel, not sure how "Deep" is defined, but most of our subs surpass normal diving range so might qualify for this designation. Some potential new designations:PSV - Personal Submergence VesselRSV - Recreational Submergence VesselSMV - Submerged Motor Vessel Others?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 26 00:24:13 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 21:24:13 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines Message-ID: <943356389.9065.1522038253510@wamui-esmeralda.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 26 01:14:46 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=98ystein_Skarholm?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 07:14:46 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines In-Reply-To: <943356389.9065.1522038253510@wamui-esmeralda.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <943356389.9065.1522038253510@wamui-esmeralda.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: DSV is commonly used for Dive Support Vessel in the oil and Gas industry. PSV is commonly used for platform support vessel RC - Recreational Submarine ( research submarine) MPS -Manned Personal Submarine 2018-03-26 6:24 GMT+02:00 irox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org>: > > Seems DV is taken as well ("Dead Vessel"....!) > > SSV - Small Submersible Vessel > > -----Original Message----- > From: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Mar 25, 2018 8:54 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational > submarines > > S.S. is already designed for Steam Ship. > > Keith T > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: irox via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 3/25/18 8:46 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational > submarines > > Nice idea, I like it. > > DV - Diving Vessel > > PDV Powered Diving Vessel > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Mar 25, 2018 5:58 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational > submarines > > > I'm interested in applying a "ship prefix" to the name of my vessel and > would like to hear opinions on something we might adopt as a group, > eventually creating a standard. Existing, prefixes that might apply: > > MV - Motor Vessel > MS - Motor Ship > RV - Research Vessel (for some of you) > DSV - Deep Submergence Vessel, not sure how "Deep" is defined, but most of > our subs surpass normal diving range so might qualify for this designation. > > Some potential new designations: > PSV - Personal Submergence Vessel > RSV - Recreational Submergence Vessel > SMV - Submerged Motor Vessel > > Others? > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- Vennlig hilsen ?ystein Skarholm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 26 08:14:15 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 08:14:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines In-Reply-To: <706007263.749430.1522025935609@mail.yahoo.com> References: <706007263.749430.1522025935609.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <706007263.749430.1522025935609@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I believe M/S can also stand for 'manned submersible.' That's the suffix I'm using to refer to Snoopy anyway! ~ Doug On 3/25/18, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I'm interested in applying a "ship prefix" to the name of my vessel and > would like to hear opinions on something we might adopt as a group, > eventually creating a standard. Existing, prefixes that might apply: > MV - Motor VesselMS - Motor ShipRV - Research Vessel (for some of you)DSV - > Deep Submergence Vessel, not sure how "Deep" is defined, but most of our > subs surpass normal diving range so might qualify for this designation. > Some potential new designations:PSV - Personal Submergence VesselRSV - > Recreational Submergence VesselSMV - Submerged Motor Vessel > Others? From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 26 08:15:13 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 08:15:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] vessel prefix for personal/recreational submarines In-Reply-To: References: <706007263.749430.1522025935609.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <706007263.749430.1522025935609@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Strike suffix - PREFIX! On 3/26/18, Douglas Suhr wrote: > I believe M/S can also stand for 'manned submersible.' That's the > suffix I'm using to refer to Snoopy anyway! ~ Doug > > On 3/25/18, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> I'm interested in applying a "ship prefix" to the name of my vessel and >> would like to hear opinions on something we might adopt as a group, >> eventually creating a standard. Existing, prefixes that might apply: >> MV - Motor VesselMS - Motor ShipRV - Research Vessel (for some of you)DSV >> - >> Deep Submergence Vessel, not sure how "Deep" is defined, but most of our >> subs surpass normal diving range so might qualify for this designation. >> Some potential new designations:PSV - Personal Submergence VesselRSV - >> Recreational Submergence VesselSMV - Submerged Motor Vessel >> Others? > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 26 15:38:12 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 12:38:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive Log Message-ID: <5BEE5BBA-D17C-4058-A9CC-91EB73A53349@geekeasy.com> Does anyone have a template for a dive log that they like? Thanks -Adam From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Mar 26 16:03:57 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 20:03:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1476023756.1252948.1522094638540@mail.yahoo.com> Adam,Here is a blank Dive Log for Gamma.Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018, 2:01:33 PM MDTSubject: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Gamma Log.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 243051 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 27 06:43:53 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 11:43:53 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: <1279423793.429929.1521931541609@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> <9B6EA12C-28D8-4A09-923E-815AC561AD24@yahoo.com> <29E86D8B-78B2-4075-B144-B1E52A7156CB@yahoo.com> <1048167591.386379.1521921811422@mail.yahoo.com> <1279423793.429929.1521931541609@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I wouldn't get that "el cheapo" one. I have it and its meadiocre at best. Its soo sensitive on the control pot, you are never quite sure if its reading right as just the slightest bump and it moves. I know Scot had the same one and experienced the same. I think it would be ok for what its intended for, mixed gas diving. But for permenant O2 monitoring, its not so good. I use a crowcon disposable one. https://www.crowcon.com/uk/products/portables/clip-sgd-single-gas.html Going to check out that one Hank mentioned now though.... James On 24 March 2018 at 22:45, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick, > Just Google "confined space O2 meter." > Hank > > > On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 2:09:09 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > how can I read up on them and get costs? > Rick > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 10:03 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > You can also buy a O2 meter that just tells you when the O2 is low or high > but does not give percentage. They are pretty cheap. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 1:50:06 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks guys, > since I didn't hear anything back at all from my post, I figured it didn't > go out properly. I plan on keeping it as simple as possible regarding lap > tops and things hooked up to it as that stuff is way out of my league! > Rick > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > I did receive the original post, but like Jon & Cliff I am going to > use a computer to receive the signal from my sensors. > It sounds fancy, but instead of having several sensors for O2, > CO2, pressure, humidity, temperature, water temperature etc > with their individual electronics & display units, you can pick the > sensors up reasonably cheaply & use the one computer& display > screen for all. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 25/03/2018, at 7:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > there is the Famous Elcheapo O2 analysing kit, that you assemble. > The cost is not a lot more than the included sensor. > I am not sure of the voltage, but would guess you would use a 9V > battery. > https://www.oxycheq.com/el- cheapo-ii-analyzer-kit.html > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 25/03/2018, at 5:55 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Thanks Jon > Yeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. If > that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my > design depth! > Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were > using? > Rick > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, > however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to > use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an > Arduino microprocessor. They are manufactured by Analytical Industries and > distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two > years. > > I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than > 100 feet. > > Jon > > > ________________________________ > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: psubs chat room > Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms > > I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 > volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? > Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at > OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard > conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that? > Rick > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 27 07:51:52 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 11:51:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: References: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> <9B6EA12C-28D8-4A09-923E-815AC561AD24@yahoo.com> <29E86D8B-78B2-4075-B144-B1E52A7156CB@yahoo.com> <1048167591.386379.1521921811422@mail.yahoo.com> <1279423793.429929.1521931541609@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1007789473.316729.1522151512203@mail.yahoo.com> I wonder if replacing the single turn pot with a ten turn pot with a recessed access would help the sensitivity??Al Secor From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms I wouldn't get that "el cheapo" one.? I have it and its meadiocre at best.? Its soo sensitive on the control pot, you are never quite sure if its reading right as just the slightest bump and it moves.? I know Scot had the same one and experienced the same.? I think it would be ok for what its intended for, mixed gas diving.? But for permenant O2 monitoring, its not so good. I use a crowcon disposable one. https://www.crowcon.com/uk/products/portables/clip-sgd-single-gas.html Going to check out that one Hank mentioned now though.... James On 24 March 2018 at 22:45, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick, > Just Google "confined space O2 meter." > Hank > > > On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 2:09:09 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > how can I read up on them and get costs? > Rick > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 10:03 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > You can also buy a O2 meter that just tells you when the O2 is low or high > but does not give percentage.? They are pretty cheap. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 1:50:06 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks guys, > since I didn't hear anything back at all from my post, I figured it didn't > go out properly. I plan on keeping it as simple as possible regarding lap > tops and things hooked up to it as that stuff is way out of my league! > Rick > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > I did receive the original post, but like Jon & Cliff I am going to > use a computer to receive the signal from my sensors. >? ? It sounds fancy, but instead of having several sensors for O2, > CO2, pressure, humidity, temperature, water temperature etc > with their individual electronics & display units, you can pick the > sensors up reasonably cheaply & use the one computer& display > screen for all. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 25/03/2018, at 7:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > there is the Famous Elcheapo O2 analysing kit, that you assemble. > The cost is not a lot more than the included sensor. > I am not sure of the voltage, but would guess you would use a 9V > battery. >? https://www.oxycheq.com/el- cheapo-ii-analyzer-kit.html > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 25/03/2018, at 5:55 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Thanks Jon > Yeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. If > that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my > design depth! > Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were > using? > Rick > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, > however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to > use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an > Arduino microprocessor.? They are manufactured by Analytical Industries and > distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two > years. > > I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than > 100 feet. > > Jon > > > ________________________________ > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: psubs chat room > Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms > > I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 > volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? > Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at > OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard > conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that? > Rick > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 27 08:27:47 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 12:27:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: <1007789473.316729.1522151512203@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> <9B6EA12C-28D8-4A09-923E-815AC561AD24@yahoo.com> <29E86D8B-78B2-4075-B144-B1E52A7156CB@yahoo.com> <1048167591.386379.1521921811422@mail.yahoo.com> <1279423793.429929.1521931541609@mail.yahoo.com> <1007789473.316729.1522151512203@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1753979931.284463.1522153667150@mail.yahoo.com> A board mount with screw driver access would probably be best, but it looks like OxyCheq sells a ten-turn pot for the kit.? The issue James enunciated is almost certainly with the potentiometer not being sensitive enough because even my $1100 Analox uses the same type gas sensor as El Cheapo and other rebreather analyzers.? It's all in the interface...I'm expecting my Arduino based analyzer to be as sensitive as the Analox since I will be passing the voltage through a 16 bit ADC and there won't be any potentiometer involved. Jon From: Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms I wonder if replacing the single turn pot with a ten turn pot with a recessed access would help the sensitivity??Al Secor From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms I wouldn't get that "el cheapo" one.? I have it and its meadiocre at best.? Its soo sensitive on the control pot, you are never quite sure if its reading right as just the slightest bump and it moves.? I know Scot had the same one and experienced the same.? I think it would be ok for what its intended for, mixed gas diving.? But for permenant O2 monitoring, its not so good. I use a crowcon disposable one. https://www.crowcon.com/uk/products/portables/clip-sgd-single-gas.html Going to check out that one Hank mentioned now though.... James On 24 March 2018 at 22:45, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick, > Just Google "confined space O2 meter." > Hank > > > On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 2:09:09 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > how can I read up on them and get costs? > Rick > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 10:03 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > You can also buy a O2 meter that just tells you when the O2 is low or high > but does not give percentage.? They are pretty cheap. > Hank > > On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 1:50:06 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks guys, > since I didn't hear anything back at all from my post, I figured it didn't > go out properly. I plan on keeping it as simple as possible regarding lap > tops and things hooked up to it as that stuff is way out of my league! > Rick > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > I did receive the original post, but like Jon & Cliff I am going to > use a computer to receive the signal from my sensors. >? ? It sounds fancy, but instead of having several sensors for O2, > CO2, pressure, humidity, temperature, water temperature etc > with their individual electronics & display units, you can pick the > sensors up reasonably cheaply & use the one computer& display > screen for all. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 25/03/2018, at 7:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Rick, > there is the Famous Elcheapo O2 analysing kit, that you assemble. > The cost is not a lot more than the included sensor. > I am not sure of the voltage, but would guess you would use a 9V > battery. >? https://www.oxycheq.com/el- cheapo-ii-analyzer-kit.html > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 25/03/2018, at 5:55 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Thanks Jon > Yeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. If > that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my > design depth! > Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were > using? > Rick > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, > however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to > use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an > Arduino microprocessor.? They are manufactured by Analytical Industries and > distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two > years. > > I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than > 100 feet. > > Jon > > > ________________________________ > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: psubs chat room > Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms > > I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 > volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? > Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support at > OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard > conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that? > Rick > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 27 08:38:52 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 13:38:52 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms In-Reply-To: <1753979931.284463.1522153667150@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1550222684.160686.1521887961701@mail.yahoo.com> <9B6EA12C-28D8-4A09-923E-815AC561AD24@yahoo.com> <29E86D8B-78B2-4075-B144-B1E52A7156CB@yahoo.com> <1048167591.386379.1521921811422@mail.yahoo.com> <1279423793.429929.1521931541609@mail.yahoo.com> <1007789473.316729.1522151512203@mail.yahoo.com> <1753979931.284463.1522153667150@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The sensitivity on the pot isn't a lot. Its not THAT bad, but its enough for you to not trust it. I just have it now as a backup, but I wouldn't recommend it in all honesty. On 27 March 2018 at 13:27, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > A board mount with screw driver access would probably be best, but it looks > like OxyCheq sells a ten-turn pot for the kit. The issue James enunciated > is almost certainly with the potentiometer not being sensitive enough > because even my $1100 Analox uses the same type gas sensor as El Cheapo and > other rebreather analyzers. It's all in the interface...I'm expecting my > Arduino based analyzer to be as sensitive as the Analox since I will be > passing the voltage through a 16 bit ADC and there won't be any > potentiometer involved. > > Jon > > > ________________________________ > From: Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 7:55 AM > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms > > I wonder if replacing the single turn pot with a ten turn pot with a > recessed access would help the sensitivity? > > Al Secor > > > ________________________________ > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 6:44 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms > > I wouldn't get that "el cheapo" one. I have it and its meadiocre at > best. Its soo sensitive on the control pot, you are never quite sure > if its reading right as just the slightest bump and it moves. I know > Scot had the same one and experienced the same. I think it would be > ok for what its intended for, mixed gas diving. But for permenant O2 > monitoring, its not so good. > > I use a crowcon disposable one. > https://www.crowcon.com/uk/products/portables/clip-sgd-single-gas.html > > Going to check out that one Hank mentioned now though.... > > James > > On 24 March 2018 at 22:45, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> Rick, >> Just Google "confined space O2 meter." >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 2:09:09 PM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> how can I read up on them and get costs? >> Rick >> >> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 10:03 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Rick, >> You can also buy a O2 meter that just tells you when the O2 is low or high >> but does not give percentage. They are pretty cheap. >> Hank >> >> On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 1:50:06 PM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Thanks guys, >> since I didn't hear anything back at all from my post, I figured it didn't >> go out properly. I plan on keeping it as simple as possible regarding lap >> tops and things hooked up to it as that stuff is way out of my league! >> Rick >> >> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Rick, >> I did receive the original post, but like Jon & Cliff I am going to >> use a computer to receive the signal from my sensors. >> It sounds fancy, but instead of having several sensors for O2, >> CO2, pressure, humidity, temperature, water temperature etc >> with their individual electronics & display units, you can pick the >> sensors up reasonably cheaply & use the one computer& display >> screen for all. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 25/03/2018, at 7:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Rick, >> there is the Famous Elcheapo O2 analysing kit, that you assemble. >> The cost is not a lot more than the included sensor. >> I am not sure of the voltage, but would guess you would use a 9V >> battery. >> https://www.oxycheq.com/el- cheapo-ii-analyzer-kit.html >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 25/03/2018, at 5:55 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Thanks Jon >> Yeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. >> If >> that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my >> design depth! >> Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were >> using? >> Rick >> >> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, >> however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to >> use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an >> Arduino microprocessor. They are manufactured by Analytical Industries >> and >> distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two >> years. >> >> I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than >> 100 feet. >> >> Jon >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > org> >> To: psubs chat room >> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms >> >> I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 >> volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? >> Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support >> at >> OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard >> conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that? >> Rick >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 27 11:16:37 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 08:16:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms Message-ID: <20180327081637.49AC5745@m0117457.ppops.net> I'm using oxygen sensor from Nuytco, is anyone else using this same sensor? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 13:38:52 +0100 The sensitivity on the pot isn't a lot. Its not THAT bad, but its enough for you to not trust it. I just have it now as a backup, but I wouldn't recommend it in all honesty. On 27 March 2018 at 13:27, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > A board mount with screw driver access would probably be best, but it looks > like OxyCheq sells a ten-turn pot for the kit. The issue James enunciated > is almost certainly with the potentiometer not being sensitive enough > because even my $1100 Analox uses the same type gas sensor as El Cheapo and > other rebreather analyzers. It's all in the interface...I'm expecting my > Arduino based analyzer to be as sensitive as the Analox since I will be > passing the voltage through a 16 bit ADC and there won't be any > potentiometer involved. > > Jon > > > ________________________________ > From: Al Secor via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 7:55 AM > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms > > I wonder if replacing the single turn pot with a ten turn pot with a > recessed access would help the sensitivity? > > Al Secor > > > ________________________________ > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 6:44 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms > > I wouldn't get that "el cheapo" one. I have it and its meadiocre at > best. Its soo sensitive on the control pot, you are never quite sure > if its reading right as just the slightest bump and it moves. I know > Scot had the same one and experienced the same. I think it would be > ok for what its intended for, mixed gas diving. But for permenant O2 > monitoring, its not so good. > > I use a crowcon disposable one. > https://www.crowcon.com/uk/products/portables/clip-sgd-single-gas.html > > Going to check out that one Hank mentioned now though.... > > James > > On 24 March 2018 at 22:45, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> Rick, >> Just Google "confined space O2 meter." >> Hank >> >> >> On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 2:09:09 PM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> how can I read up on them and get costs? >> Rick >> >> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 10:03 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Rick, >> You can also buy a O2 meter that just tells you when the O2 is low or high >> but does not give percentage. They are pretty cheap. >> Hank >> >> On Saturday, March 24, 2018, 1:50:06 PM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Thanks guys, >> since I didn't hear anything back at all from my post, I figured it didn't >> go out properly. I plan on keeping it as simple as possible regarding lap >> tops and things hooked up to it as that stuff is way out of my league! >> Rick >> >> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Rick, >> I did receive the original post, but like Jon & Cliff I am going to >> use a computer to receive the signal from my sensors. >> It sounds fancy, but instead of having several sensors for O2, >> CO2, pressure, humidity, temperature, water temperature etc >> with their individual electronics & display units, you can pick the >> sensors up reasonably cheaply & use the one computer& display >> screen for all. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 25/03/2018, at 7:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Rick, >> there is the Famous Elcheapo O2 analysing kit, that you assemble. >> The cost is not a lot more than the included sensor. >> I am not sure of the voltage, but would guess you would use a 9V >> battery. >> https://www.oxycheq.com/el- cheapo-ii-analyzer-kit.html >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 25/03/2018, at 5:55 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Thanks Jon >> Yeah I hope he was mistaken as well though he was in tech support at OTS. >> If >> that?s the case, I?ll lose coms less than a third of the way down to my >> design depth! >> Hank, didn?t you post once about an affordable O2 monitor that you were >> using? >> Rick >> >> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> I saw it Rick, just haven't completely decided yet so didn't respond, >> however you did get me thinking about it again and I believe I'm going to >> use an O2 sensor intended for rebreathers that will be interfaced with an >> Arduino microprocessor. They are manufactured by Analytical Industries >> and >> distributed by Dive Gear Express, most under $100 and have a life of two >> years. >> >> I have no experience with OTS yet but sure hope it is better for more than >> 100 feet. >> >> Jon >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > org> >> To: psubs chat room >> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:32 AM >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 02 sensor and coms >> >> I sent out a post the other day regarding what others were using for a 12 >> volt oxygen sensor but didn't get a response so not sure it went threw?? >> Maybe I typed in the wrong address? I was on the phone with tech support >> at >> OTS the other day and asked him what range I could expect under standard >> conditions and he said about 100'. Can anyone out there speak to that? >> Rick >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> ______________________________ _________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 27 13:33:59 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 10:33:59 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1476023756.1252948.1522094638540@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1476023756.1252948.1522094638540@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hank, Excuse my ignorance, but what are LS, RS, and TTD? -Adam > On Mar 26, 2018, at 1:03 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 27 14:25:55 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 18:25:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <1476023756.1252948.1522094638540@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1072450034.511467.1522175155039@mail.yahoo.com> Adam,I have no idea, ?I just copied the original dive logs that came with the sub. ?Hank On Tuesday, March 27, 2018, 11:34:14 AM MDT, Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hank, Excuse my ignorance, but what are LS, RS, and TTD? -Adam > On Mar 26, 2018, at 1:03 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 27 14:39:52 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 08:39:52 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <1476023756.1252948.1522094638540@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: leave surface, reach surface and total time of dive Rick On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 7:33 AM, Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Hank, > > Excuse my ignorance, but what are LS, RS, and TTD? > > -Adam > > > > On Mar 26, 2018, at 1:03 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 27 17:01:41 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 21:01:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <1476023756.1252948.1522094638540@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <518027605.617794.1522184501083@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,Sounds like you have been there done that ;-)Hank On Tuesday, March 27, 2018, 12:40:11 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: leave surface, reach surface and total time of diveRick On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 7:33 AM, Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hank, Excuse my ignorance, but what are LS, RS, and TTD? -Adam > On Mar 26, 2018, at 1:03 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Mar 27 18:15:18 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 12:15:18 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <518027605.617794.1522184501083@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1476023756.1252948.1522094638540@mail.yahoo.com> <518027605.617794.1522184501083@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Was a commercial diver for most of my career so we needed to note that stuff every time we hit the water. Rick On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 11:01 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > Sounds like you have been there done that ;-) > Hank > > On Tuesday, March 27, 2018, 12:40:11 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > leave surface, reach surface and total time of dive > Rick > > On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 7:33 AM, Adam Katz via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Hank, > > Excuse my ignorance, but what are LS, RS, and TTD? > > -Adam > > > > On Mar 26, 2018, at 1:03 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles org > wrote: > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 28 15:38:13 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 19:38:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger References: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> For those with 36v systems, what charger are you using?? How many amps?? How long to charge the bank of batteries? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 28 16:12:43 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 20:12:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger In-Reply-To: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <571606512.460496.1522267963957@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,I had a 36V system for a season but am back to two 24V banks, but I always charge 12V at a time. ?It is also easier to find a charger for AGM in 12 or 24V. ? Sean mentioned one time to charge individual batteries instead of a group and I have followed that advice.Hank On Wednesday, March 28, 2018, 1:38:34 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: For those with 36v systems, what charger are you using?? How many amps?? How long to charge the bank of batteries? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 28 16:43:58 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 20:43:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger In-Reply-To: <571606512.460496.1522267963957@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> <571606512.460496.1522267963957@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <270730889.450044.1522269838064@mail.yahoo.com> On the K600 that would mean disconnecting the batteries from the main power penetrator in the battery pod, pulling out the battery tray, and disconnecting the series wiring configuration.? I think I'm going to try a 36v solution so I can take a "car jumper" type of approach within the cabin and charge via the main supply cables that run to the battery pod.? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger Jon,I had a 36V system for a season but am back to two 24V banks, but I always charge 12V at a time. ?It is also easier to find a charger for AGM in 12 or 24V. ? Sean mentioned one time to charge individual batteries instead of a group and I have followed that advice.Hank On Wednesday, March 28, 2018, 1:38:34 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: For those with 36v systems, what charger are you using?? How many amps?? How long to charge the bank of batteries? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 28 16:48:50 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 13:48:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger Message-ID: <20180328134850.49AF0E91@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 28 17:43:23 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:43:23 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger In-Reply-To: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I use a Zivan NG3 Onboard battery charger. I have a 36VDC battery bank made up of 9 batteries organized with three sets 12 vDC batteries in series for 36V and each of the sets in parallel. See code F7 CR. for model number for 36V bank. Charge rate is 60 amps. The time to recharge depends on SOC. After typical dive day, I let it charge overnight. This charger is good for psubs in that it understands our boats stay in the shop a lot and only need trickle charge for long periods of time to keep from killing batteries. I have this charger installed permanently in the boat. Has a remote sensor that lets you see how the charge is coming along. Cliff On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > For those with 36v systems, what charger are you using? How many amps? > How long to charge the bank of batteries? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 28 17:54:52 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 21:54:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger In-Reply-To: <270730889.450044.1522269838064@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> <571606512.460496.1522267963957@mail.yahoo.com> <270730889.450044.1522269838064@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1500558202.527132.1522274092605@mail.yahoo.com> Jon, sorry I forgot that your pods have single penetrators. ?In Gamma I can run charge wires to each pair of 6V ?batteries.Hank On Wednesday, March 28, 2018, 2:44:17 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: On the K600 that would mean disconnecting the batteries from the main power penetrator in the battery pod, pulling out the battery tray, and disconnecting the series wiring configuration.? I think I'm going to try a 36v solution so I can take a "car jumper" type of approach within the cabin and charge via the main supply cables that run to the battery pod.? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger Jon,I had a 36V system for a season but am back to two 24V banks, but I always charge 12V at a time. ?It is also easier to find a charger for AGM in 12 or 24V. ? Sean mentioned one time to charge individual batteries instead of a group and I have followed that advice.Hank On Wednesday, March 28, 2018, 1:38:34 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: For those with 36v systems, what charger are you using?? How many amps?? How long to charge the bank of batteries? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 28 17:55:48 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 17:55:48 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger In-Reply-To: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jon, I agonized over this one myself. I have 12 batteries in two 36V banks, and it would be completely impractical for me to reconnect batteries to make any other voltage. I ended up getting an Eagle Performance Model 3625OBU, which puts out 25 amps. It's a monster, it probably weighs 30 lbs or so. It works all right, and has settings for AGM as well as digital smarts for adjusting the charge rate. But having said that, my 12V charger was infinitely superior (way more compact, and charged two banks simultaneously at different voltages). I think you'll see some 36V choices if you use keywords "golf cart" and "forklift" when searching chargers. Best, Alec On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > For those with 36v systems, what charger are you using? How many amps? > How long to charge the bank of batteries? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 28 19:53:29 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:53:29 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger Message-ID: <20180328165329.49B1A5AF@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 28 21:53:49 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 20:53:49 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger In-Reply-To: <20180328165329.49B1A5AF@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20180328165329.49B1A5AF@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: I am not a battery expert but what I found best for me is to plug in the charger every week or so during the times between dives. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 28, 2018, at 6:53 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, Once your batteries are all charged up do you leave the charger on all the time in maintenance mode? I've been working on my sub for a couple of months since my last test and have not charged the batteries up for that time period. I noticed when I turned the charger back on that it went into the "topping off " mode or "finishing" where is was 90% charged. do you think it's a good idea to just leave the charger on all the time in maintenance mode? > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:43:23 -0500 > > I use a Zivan NG3 Onboard battery charger. I have a 36VDC battery bank made up of 9 batteries organized with three sets 12 vDC batteries in series for 36V and each of the sets in parallel. > > See code F7 CR. for model number for 36V bank. Charge rate is 60 amps. The time to recharge depends on SOC. After typical dive day, I let it charge overnight. This charger is good for psubs in that it understands our boats stay in the shop a lot and only need trickle charge for long periods of time to keep from killing batteries. > > I have this charger installed permanently in the boat. Has a remote sensor that lets you see how the charge is coming along. > > Cliff > > > > On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > For those with 36v systems, what charger are you using? How many amps? How long to charge the bank of batteries? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Mar 28 22:39:27 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 22:39:27 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger In-Reply-To: <571606512.460496.1522267963957@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> <571606512.460496.1522267963957@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The issue with charging multiple cells in series is that small variances in internal resistance of each cell can lead to cell imbalance over time. This also happens to some extent in parallel configurations, but at least then you are controlling the charge voltage across the cell. If you have a sophisticated battery management system which can isolate or switch charge voltage to individual cells, you can significantly extend the working life of the battery, but it may be cheaper just to replace batteries more often. I might give some consideration to high current capability switches to isolate and charge cells independently in the absence of a BMS. If I were constrained to a series battery configuration, I would do all I could to eliminate any resistance between them, such as using large bus bars instead of cables. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 28, 2018, 14:12, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > I had a 36V system for a season but am back to two 24V banks, but I always charge 12V at a time. It is also easier to find a charger for AGM in 12 or 24V. Sean mentioned one time to charge individual batteries instead of a group and I have followed that advice. > Hank > > On Wednesday, March 28, 2018, 1:38:34 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > For those with 36v systems, what charger are you using? How many amps? How long to charge the bank of batteries? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 05:32:31 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 22:32:31 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit Message-ID: Hi, I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the bearing in to the press fit. I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right diameter. Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 06:09:39 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (emile via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:09:39 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d3c746$0cd35150$2679f3f0$@nl> Hi Alan, Press fit is good for a durable bearing construction. Force is not leading, you're to late when the force is too high... You can find in a bearing handbook how much the diameter difference should be. Is about 0,02 to 0,03 mm for small /medium bearings. Loctite 638 or 603 is a alternative. Br, Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: donderdag 29 maart 2018 11:33 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit Hi, I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the bearing in to the press fit. I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right diameter. Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 07:19:26 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (graham bayliss via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:19:26 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger In-Reply-To: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006301d3c74f$cc547ff0$64fd7fd0$@net> Hi Jon I use a Victron energy nue power charger 12/30 to charge my batteries this charges three battries at one goe seperating the batteries during charging is good practice if you charge all three in one go if you have a bad cell in on of your batteries it will destroy the other two. the charger will do every thing you require and will charge litium batteries also . Graham bayliss From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: 28 March 2018 20:38 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger For those with 36v systems, what charger are you using? How many amps? How long to charge the bank of batteries? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 07:28:35 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 11:28:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <000001d3c746$0cd35150$2679f3f0$@nl> References: <000001d3c746$0cd35150$2679f3f0$@nl> Message-ID: <1941340120.773111.1522322915635@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,The problem with your plan is, you will move your piece that your machining when you try to push the bearing in. ?Hank On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 4:09:52 AM MDT, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Press fit is good for a durable bearing construction. Force is not leading, you're to late when the force is too high... You can find in a bearing handbook how much the diameter difference should be. Is about 0,02 to 0,03 mm? for small /medium bearings. Loctite 638 or 603 is a alternative. Br, Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: donderdag 29 maart 2018 11:33 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit Hi, I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the bearing in to the press fit. ? I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. ? I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right diameter. Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 09:43:42 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 02:43:42 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <1941340120.773111.1522322915635@mail.yahoo.com> References: <000001d3c746$0cd35150$2679f3f0$@nl> <1941340120.773111.1522322915635@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5F174C10-4FF2-4956-ACC8-60EA7AFAF7D9@yahoo.com> Hank, not sure what you are meaning. The piece ( front section of thruster) is held in the jaws. I can hand hold the bearing in place & wind in the tail stock until the tool in the tailstock engages the bearing. I then let go & continue winding the tail stock. If I can't press the bearing in with the tail stock I back it off & machine a bit more out of the bore & repeat the process. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 30/03/2018, at 12:28 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > The problem with your plan is, you will move your piece that your machining when you try to push the bearing in. > Hank > > On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 4:09:52 AM MDT, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > > Press fit is good for a durable bearing construction. > Force is not leading, you're to late when the force is too high... You can > find in a bearing handbook how much the diameter difference should be. > Is about 0,02 to 0,03 mm for small /medium bearings. > Loctite 638 or 603 is a alternative. > > Br, Emile > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: donderdag 29 maart 2018 11:33 > Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Hi, > I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing & > wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my bearing, > fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the bearing in to the > press fit. > I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, which > I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as there is not > a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. > I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the bore > to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the work in the > chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right diameter. > Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 09:47:51 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 13:47:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <715484227.763092.1522331271887@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, Search the internet for press fit, bore, shaft...something like that...I found a tooling handbook that had a chart describing how large a bore to produce different levels of "press fit", from kinda-loose to needing a hydraulic press for insertion.? Wish I had book marked that web page now. Jon From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 5:35 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit Hi, I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the bearing in to the press fit. ? I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. ? I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right diameter. Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 10:01:50 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:01:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <5F174C10-4FF2-4956-ACC8-60EA7AFAF7D9@yahoo.com> References: <000001d3c746$0cd35150$2679f3f0$@nl> <1941340120.773111.1522322915635@mail.yahoo.com> <5F174C10-4FF2-4956-ACC8-60EA7AFAF7D9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1779345288.827291.1522332110512@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Even with your part in the chuck tighten down it can still move, your talking about some pretty precise stuff here. ?Give it a try first, put your part in and machine some and push against it and then machine it again and see if it is ?off. ?Your better off finding the perfect size the first time. ? This is why I have to make parts more than once lolHank? On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 7:44:08 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,not sure what you are meaning.The piece ( front section of thruster) is held in the jaws.I can hand hold the bearing in place & wind in the tail stock until the toolin the tailstock engages the bearing. I then let go & continue winding thetail stock. If I can't press the bearing in with the tail stock I back it off& machine a bit more out of the bore & repeat the process.Alan Sent from my iPad On 30/03/2018, at 12:28 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,The problem with your plan is, you will move your piece that your machining when you try to push the bearing in. ?Hank On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 4:09:52 AM MDT, emile via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan, Press fit is good for a durable bearing construction. Force is not leading, you're to late when the force is too high... You can find in a bearing handbook how much the diameter difference should be. Is about 0,02 to 0,03 mm? for small /medium bearings. Loctite 638 or 603 is a alternative. Br, Emile -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: donderdag 29 maart 2018 11:33 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit Hi, I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the bearing in to the press fit. ? I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. ? I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right diameter. Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 10:11:52 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:11:52 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <715484227.763092.1522331271887@mail.yahoo.com> References: <715484227.763092.1522331271887@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Be careful with press fitting a bearing. If you get it even slightly too tight, it can adversely affect running friction and smoothness. The bearing manufacturer should provide technical data on the recommended fit class, and you need to take care to target that accurately. Or, as others have indicated, use a clearance fit and just loctite or preload the installed bearing to prevent any relative movement of the static race. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 29, 2018, 07:47, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alan, > > Search the internet for press fit, bore, shaft...something like that...I found a tooling handbook that had a chart describing how large a bore to produce different levels of "press fit", from kinda-loose to needing a hydraulic press for insertion. Wish I had book marked that web page now. > > Jon > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 5:35 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Hi, > I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing > & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my bearing, > fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the bearing in to the press fit. > I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, which I > won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as there is not a > lot of dynamic force on the bearing. > I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the bore to > the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the work in the chuck > & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right diameter. > Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 10:46:26 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:46:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger In-Reply-To: References: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> <571606512.460496.1522267963957@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <208773167.797924.1522334786985@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for those details Sean. From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 10:41 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger The issue with charging multiple cells in series is that small variances in internal resistance of each cell can lead to cell imbalance over time. This also happens to some extent in parallel configurations, but at least then you are controlling the charge voltage across the cell. If you have a sophisticated battery management system which can isolate or switch charge voltage to individual cells, you can significantly extend the working life of the battery, but it may be cheaper just to replace batteries more often. I might give some consideration to high current capability switches to isolate and charge cells independently in the absence of a BMS. If I were constrained to a series battery configuration, I would do all I could to eliminate any resistance between them, such as using large bus bars instead of cables. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 28, 2018, 14:12, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Jon,I had a 36V system for a season but am back to two 24V banks, but I always charge 12V at a time. ?It is also easier to find a charger for AGM in 12 or 24V. ? Sean mentioned one time to charge individual batteries instead of a group and I have followed that advice.Hank On Wednesday, March 28, 2018, 1:38:34 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: For those with 36v systems, what charger are you using?? How many amps?? How long to charge the bank of batteries? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 10:57:28 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 07:57:28 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit Message-ID: <20180329075728.49AF5B7A@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 11:06:29 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 11:06:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger In-Reply-To: <208773167.797924.1522334786985@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1236174184.408594.1522265893794.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1236174184.408594.1522265893794@mail.yahoo.com> <571606512.460496.1522267963957@mail.yahoo.com> <208773167.797924.1522334786985@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just to add to that, if you must run multiple batteries in series, both to draw from and to charge, then do as I suggested and use bus bars if you can, but you will also want to assess each battery or cell on an individual basis more often as part of your preventative maintenance. If one cell starts to drop voltage out of line with the rest, you will want to replace it early to prolong the life of the others. If you let one get really bad, it can adversely affect the others in the string over multiple charge cycles. That said, unless you are purchasing single cells specifically, most off the shelf batteries that you buy are essentially series combinations of multiple cells anyway, and when a battery goes bad, it is likely only one or two of the internal cells that have actually degraded. The intimate nature of the plate or wound construction of cells integral to a single battery minimizes the problems, and there are also economies of scale at work. Rarely can you even measure individual cell voltages in an off-the-shelf battery. Stringing multiple batteries together in series is fundamentally no different, but if you are able to monitor individual cell voltages (those of you with electronic controls / PLCs) as a measure of cell / battery health, you can get an early warning of an impending failure within your string. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Mar 29, 2018, 08:46, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Thanks for those details Sean. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 10:41 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 36vdc charger > > The issue with charging multiple cells in series is that small variances in internal resistance of each cell can lead to cell imbalance over time. This also happens to some extent in parallel configurations, but at least then you are controlling the charge voltage across the cell. If you have a sophisticated battery management system which can isolate or switch charge voltage to individual cells, you can significantly extend the working life of the battery, but it may be cheaper just to replace batteries more often. I might give some consideration to high current capability switches to isolate and charge cells independently in the absence of a BMS. If I were constrained to a series battery configuration, I would do all I could to eliminate any resistance between them, such as using large bus bars instead of cables. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Mar 28, 2018, 14:12, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> > > Jon, > I had a 36V system for a season but am back to two 24V banks, but I always charge 12V at a time. It is also easier to find a charger for AGM in 12 or 24V. Sean mentioned one time to charge individual batteries instead of a group and I have followed that advice. > Hank > > On Wednesday, March 28, 2018, 1:38:34 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > For those with 36v systems, what charger are you using? How many amps? How long to charge the bank of batteries? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 12:35:28 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:35:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air flow vs. water flow Message-ID: Hi everyone, I was testing one of my new MBTs yesterday, removed from the sub, by turning it upside down and filling it with water, then opening the mushroom valve to let the water out. It takes 60 seconds to empty. In actual operation it will be air instead of water coming out that valve. The pressure will be the same, but because it will be air instead of water the tank should empty much faster. The question is, does anyone know more or less *how much* faster? One should be able to calculate this with Bernoulli's formula, but this is very turbulent flow so not sure if it would really hold. Any rules of thumb? Thanks, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 12:42:30 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:42:30 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <5F174C10-4FF2-4956-ACC8-60EA7AFAF7D9@yahoo.com> References: <000001d3c746$0cd35150$2679f3f0$@nl> <1941340120.773111.1522322915635@mail.yahoo.com> <5F174C10-4FF2-4956-ACC8-60EA7AFAF7D9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, This sounds a lot like replacing the front wheel bearings in my son's race kart. It's a press fit into aluminum. Just make yourself a little cylinder of solid aluminum or plastic that is a hair smaller OD than the bearing, sit the bearing down over the hole its going into, hold your custom made aluminum or plastic rod onto the bearing, and tap with a mallet. Your custom rod allows you to put the mallet force onto the outside edge of the bearing. What you don't want to do is drive the bearing from the inside run and have the resistance act on the outside run. Best, Alec On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 9:43 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, > not sure what you are meaning. > The piece ( front section of thruster) is held in the jaws. > I can hand hold the bearing in place & wind in the tail stock until the > tool > in the tailstock engages the bearing. I then let go & continue winding the > tail stock. If I can't press the bearing in with the tail stock I back it > off > & machine a bit more out of the bore & repeat the process. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 30/03/2018, at 12:28 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > The problem with your plan is, you will move your piece that your > machining when you try to push the bearing in. > Hank > > On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 4:09:52 AM MDT, emile via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > > Press fit is good for a durable bearing construction. > Force is not leading, you're to late when the force is too high... You can > find in a bearing handbook how much the diameter difference should be. > Is about 0,02 to 0,03 mm for small /medium bearings. > Loctite 638 or 603 is a alternative. > > Br, Emile > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org > ] > Namens Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: donderdag 29 maart 2018 11:33 > Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Hi, > I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing & > wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my bearing, > fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the bearing in to > the > press fit. > I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, which > I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as there is > not > a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. > I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the bore > to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the work in the > chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right diameter. > Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 12:46:17 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 18:46:17 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air flow vs. water flow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Alec What a creative idea! Viscosity of air being around 0.02cp vs 1cp for water, you d have it 50 times faster with air assuming laminar flow. I d bet it id Probably a bit less than 50x in reality given the (moderate ?) turbulence. You could use that to get a rough idea of the reynolds number? Regards Antoine On Thursday, Match 29, 2018, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I was testing one of my new MBTs yesterday, removed from the sub, by > turning it upside down and filling it with water, then opening the mushroom > valve to let the water out. It takes 60 seconds to empty. In actual > operation it will be air instead of water coming out that valve. The > pressure will be the same, but because it will be air instead of water the > tank should empty much faster. The question is, does anyone know more or > less *how much* faster? One should be able to calculate this with > Bernoulli's formula, but this is very turbulent flow so not sure if it > would really hold. Any rules of thumb? > > > Thanks, > Alec > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 15:42:08 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 08:42:08 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> Alan, What diameter is the bearing? As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy. Do you have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size? If you are relying on digital calipers you are playing with fire. The answer to your question is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock but they don't have much push. You can use a vice as well if it is in good condition. I suspect you are talking about something that is possibly only 30-40mm. It is very easy to over machine but you can use Loctite if you want to. Suggest you try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first. Easy to machine it off after or push it right through. Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit Hi, I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the bearing in to the press fit. I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right diameter. Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 16:49:28 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 09:49:28 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> References: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> Thanks for the advice guys. The bearing diameters are 35 & 24mm. I went to a lot of fuss last time I did this & ended up having to use loctite as the last pass on the lathe took too much off. Emile, I will shoot for .02-.03mm & see how that goes. Have found other advice saying .03. But found a lot of confusing information googling. I was intending to heat & freeze parts prior to pressing. Hugh, I have been using inside callipers & measuring off these with the digital callipers. The digital callipers are on the cheap side so may upgrade them & as you say, purchase telescopic gauges the right size. Also on my radar is a 10 ton hydraulic hand operated press, as I am also press fitting the two end sections of the thruster in to a tubular middle section. I am figuring that with epoxy in the press fit, screws & an epoxy paint finish it should be water tight without o-rings. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 30/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > What diameter is the bearing? > As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy. Do you > have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size? If you are relying > on digital calipers you are playing with fire. The answer to your question > is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock but they don't have > much push. You can use a vice as well if it is in good condition. I > suspect you are talking about something that is possibly only 30-40mm. It > is very easy to over machine but you can use Loctite if you want to. > Suggest you try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first. Easy to > machine it off after or push it right through. > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Hi, > I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing & > wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my bearing, > fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the bearing in to the > press fit. > I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, which > I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as there is not > a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. > I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the bore > to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the work in the > chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right diameter. > Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 19:05:35 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 19:05:35 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Very long shot request Message-ID: Hi guys, I?ve been contacted on behalf of actor Jared Leto who is doing an ?Adventure road trip? next week. I believe it?s a TV program. They think taking a dive in a PSUB would count as a suitable adventure, and are asking if there is an opportunity to do so anywhere near either Los Angeles in the Great Lakes. If there?s anyone able and interested, please advise... Thanks, Alec Sent from my iPhone From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 21:03:05 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 14:03:05 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> References: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0faa01d3c7c2$def44690$9cdcd3b0$@gmail.com> Alan, You are really brave to try and measure that way. Even tele gauges are hard unless you have a lot of practice with them but not with calipers. You have to use them with an outside mic to give you a fighting chance as you have just found out. You should be using a bore Micrometer or at least inside mic for bearing fits. I think you should pay a visit out to our workshop if you are planning on doing that sort of thing in future. So much is in the feel using instruments. CRC do a freeze spray for that sort of thing as well. As the guys say get the manufacturers recommendations. The bearings are not universal as they come in different clearances such as C3 or C4. Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 9:49 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit Thanks for the advice guys. The bearing diameters are 35 & 24mm. I went to a lot of fuss last time I did this & ended up having to use loctite as the last pass on the lathe took too much off. Emile, I will shoot for .02-.03mm & see how that goes. Have found other advice saying .03. But found a lot of confusing information googling. I was intending to heat & freeze parts prior to pressing. Hugh, I have been using inside callipers & measuring off these with the digital callipers. The digital callipers are on the cheap side so may upgrade them & as you say, purchase telescopic gauges the right size. Also on my radar is a 10 ton hydraulic hand operated press, as I am also press fitting the two end sections of the thruster in to a tubular middle section. I am figuring that with epoxy in the press fit, screws & an epoxy paint finish it should be water tight without o-rings. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 30/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > What diameter is the bearing? > As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy. > Do you have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size? If you > are relying on digital calipers you are playing with fire. The answer > to your question is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock > but they don't have much push. You can use a vice as well if it is in > good condition. I suspect you are talking about something that is > possibly only 30-40mm. It is very easy to over machine but you can use Loctite if you want to. > Suggest you try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first. Easy > to machine it off after or push it right through. > Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Hi, > I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing > & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my > bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the > bearing in to the press fit. > I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, > which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as > there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. > I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the > bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the > work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right diameter. > Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 22:33:37 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 19:33:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Honda generator/inverter Message-ID: <20180329193337.49B1F368@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 22:42:43 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:42:43 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <0faa01d3c7c2$def44690$9cdcd3b0$@gmail.com> References: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> <0faa01d3c7c2$def44690$9cdcd3b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <11BA62B4-3A4C-458C-A308-08A7F4C8B3B5@yahoo.com> Thanks Hugh, I'll have a look in the shops after easter to get a handle on whats available. On the net there seems to be quite a range in prices from about $30- to thousands. Always enjoy visiting your premises & seeing the Q-sub and would appreciate any advice with this precision machining. How is the Q-sub going? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 30/03/2018, at 2:03 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, You are really brave to try and measure that way. Even tele gauges > are hard unless you have a lot of practice with them but not with calipers. > You have to use them with an outside mic to give you a fighting chance as > you have just found out. You should be using a bore Micrometer or at least > inside mic for bearing fits. I think you should pay a visit out to our > workshop if you are planning on doing that sort of thing in future. So much > is in the feel using instruments. CRC do a freeze spray for that sort of > thing as well. As the guys say get the manufacturers recommendations. The > bearings are not universal as they come in different clearances such as C3 > or C4. Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 9:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Thanks for the advice guys. > The bearing diameters are 35 & 24mm. > I went to a lot of fuss last time I did this & ended up having to use > loctite as the last pass on the lathe took too much off. > Emile, I will shoot for .02-.03mm & see how that goes. Have found other > advice saying .03. But found a lot of confusing information googling. > I was intending to heat & freeze parts prior to pressing. > Hugh, I have been using inside callipers & measuring off these with the > digital callipers. > The digital callipers are on the cheap side so may upgrade them & as you > say, purchase telescopic gauges the right size. > Also on my radar is a 10 ton hydraulic hand operated press, as I am also > press fitting the two end sections of the thruster in to a tubular middle > section. I am figuring that with epoxy in the press fit, screws & an epoxy > paint finish it should be water tight without o-rings. > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 30/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Alan, >> What diameter is the bearing? >> As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy. >> Do you have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size? If you >> are relying on digital calipers you are playing with fire. The answer >> to your question is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock >> but they don't have much push. You can use a vice as well if it is in >> good condition. I suspect you are talking about something that is >> possibly only 30-40mm. It is very easy to over machine but you can use > Loctite if you want to. >> Suggest you try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first. Easy >> to machine it off after or push it right through. >> Hugh >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit >> >> Hi, >> I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing >> & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my >> bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the >> bearing in to the press fit. >> I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, >> which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as >> there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. >> I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the >> bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the >> work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right > diameter. >> Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 22:53:08 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:53:08 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Honda generator/inverter In-Reply-To: <20180329193337.49B1F368@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20180329193337.49B1F368@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: <268DFF2B-9742-4822-B85E-BFA38DDFE951@yahoo.com> Brian, Was nearly going to ask you if it would fit in. Not necessarily recommending this, but you could store fuel externally in a flexible bag, & move the generator outside for extended travel or charging the batteries. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 30/03/2018, at 3:33 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Wow, I just realized that that Honda eu2200 IAT, that I just bought, will fit through my hatch ( 18" dia) with a little room to spare ! Not that I have any plans on carrying it in there exactly, but amazing all the same. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Mar 29 23:20:53 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 20:20:53 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Honda generator/inverter Message-ID: <20180329202053.49B1F7D8@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 05:41:42 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 09:41:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <11BA62B4-3A4C-458C-A308-08A7F4C8B3B5@yahoo.com> References: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> <0faa01d3c7c2$def44690$9cdcd3b0$@gmail.com> <11BA62B4-3A4C-458C-A308-08A7F4C8B3B5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <675157484.101101.1522402902965@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, I rarely can machine to the tolerance your talking about. ?I cheat and get very close then finish with a real good flat file then polish the part with progressively finer wet and dry sand paper. ?I will go right down to 2000 grit some times.. ?I am not sure if it is me or the lathe.Hank On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 8:43:07 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hugh, I'll have a look in the shops after easter to get a handle on whats available. On the net there seems to be quite a range in prices from about $30- to thousands. Always enjoy visiting your premises & seeing the Q-sub and would appreciate any advice with this precision machining. How is the Q-sub going? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 30/03/2018, at 2:03 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan,? You are really brave to try and measure that way.? Even tele gauges > are hard unless you have a lot of practice with them but not with calipers. > You have to use them with an outside mic to give you a fighting chance as > you have just found out.? You should be using a bore Micrometer or at least > inside mic for bearing fits.? I think you should pay a visit out to our > workshop if you are planning on doing that sort of thing in future. So much > is in the feel using instruments.? CRC do a freeze spray for that sort of > thing as well.? As the guys say get the manufacturers recommendations.? The > bearings are not universal as they come in different clearances such as C3 > or C4.? Hugh? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 9:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Thanks for the advice guys. > The bearing diameters are 35 & 24mm. > I went to a lot of fuss last time I did this & ended up having to use > loctite as the last pass on the lathe took too much off. > Emile, I will shoot for .02-.03mm & see how that goes. Have found other > advice saying .03. But found a lot of confusing information googling. > I was intending to heat & freeze parts prior to pressing. > Hugh, I have been using inside callipers & measuring? off these with the > digital callipers. > The digital callipers are on the cheap side so may upgrade them & as you > say, purchase telescopic gauges the right size. > Also on my radar is a 10 ton hydraulic hand operated press, as I am also > press fitting the two end sections of the thruster in to a tubular middle > section. I am figuring that with epoxy in the press fit, screws & an epoxy > paint finish it should be water tight without o-rings. > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 30/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Alan, >> What diameter is the bearing? >> As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy.? >> Do you have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size?? If you >> are relying on digital calipers you are playing with fire.? The answer >> to your question is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock >> but they don't have much push.? You can use a vice as well if it is in >> good condition.? I suspect you are talking about something that is >> possibly only 30-40mm.? It is very easy to over machine but you can use > Loctite if you want to. >> Suggest you? try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first.? Easy >> to machine it off after or push it right through. >> Hugh >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit >> >> Hi, >> I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing >> & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my >> bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the >> bearing in to the press fit. >> I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, >> which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as >> there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. >> I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the >> bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the >> work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right > diameter. >> Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 13:43:20 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:43:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] regulator References: <1059872848.262877.1522431800810.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1059872848.262877.1522431800810@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,I just installed my R364-02B regulator on my arm and the instructions talk about a non relieving model. ?I assume this one is relieving because when I reduce the pressure to the arm the excess pressure bleeds off when turning the adjustment knob. Is that correct? ??Also to anyone with an opinion, the air system regulator for compensation to the arm is literally 1 foot from my side positioning thruster. ?This makes me think I should air compensate that thruster instead of oil. ? The system works with a small 3L air holding tank that is maintained at 300 psi from the main HP tank. ?I am not sure if I should risk feeding the thruster from the small tank, in case the thruster seal ?leaks it could cause the arm to flood. ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 15:31:24 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 08:31:24 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] regulator In-Reply-To: <1059872848.262877.1522431800810@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1059872848.262877.1522431800810.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1059872848.262877.1522431800810@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <610C5C6F-877A-41C1-8AA2-E702CCB94294@yahoo.com> Hank, if it were a non relieving it would have a K designation after the 02B. https://store.livhaven.com/downloads/dl/file/id/4873/datasheet.pdf You will need to take the plastic handle off to put a plastic tube over the relief valve outlet to help stop any water going past the relief valve, & as you probably know, mount it upside down. When you do this you may be able to see the air bubbling out if you place it upside down in water, pressurise your arm, & then back the pressure off the regulator as you have done before. You have gone with the brass & not stainless. Was it a lot cheaper? Does the 3L tank get fed continuously from the main tank, so that if there was a leak it would drain the whole of your main tank before any pressure in the motor or arm dropped below ambient? If you noticed an unexpected drop in main tank pressure & suspected it was caused by the thruster, you could shut off air to the regulator & go up knowing that as you ascend you will always have at least ambient pressure. I made enquiries with Fugu sub about compensating & they said they preferred air for brushed motors & liked to see a bit of air bubbling out as a reassurance they had some positive internal pressure. Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 31/03/2018, at 6:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > I just installed my R364-02B regulator on my arm and the instructions talk about a non relieving model. I assume this one is relieving because when I reduce the pressure to the arm the excess pressure bleeds off when turning the adjustment knob. Is that correct? > Also to anyone with an opinion, the air system regulator for compensation to the arm is literally 1 foot from my side positioning thruster. This makes me think I should air compensate that thruster instead of oil. The system works with a small 3L air holding tank that is maintained at 300 psi from the main HP tank. I am not sure if I should risk feeding the thruster from the small tank, in case the thruster seal leaks it could cause the arm to flood. > Hank > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 15:40:10 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 19:40:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] regulator In-Reply-To: <610C5C6F-877A-41C1-8AA2-E702CCB94294@yahoo.com> References: <1059872848.262877.1522431800810.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1059872848.262877.1522431800810@mail.yahoo.com> <610C5C6F-877A-41C1-8AA2-E702CCB94294@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1862780988.302234.1522438810085@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Thank you for the input. ?I went with the brass because I was in a hurry and Gamma will never see salt water. ?The small tank can be fed continuously from the main tank. ?I will leave the air supply on until I reach bottom then shut the air supply off. ?I did know to invert the regulator but did not know about a tube that has to be added. ?Cliff did not mention that? ?I am sure that air in the motor is better and will take less battery power also. ?So you think I should air compensate the motor and risk the arm actuators? ?You have a good point that the actuators would be aired up, I did not think of that.Hank On Friday, March 30, 2018, 1:31:48 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,if it were a non relieving it would have a K designation after the 02B.https://store.livhaven.com/downloads/dl/file/id/4873/datasheet.pdfYou will need to take the plastic handle off to put a plastic tube overthe relief valve outlet to help stop any water going past the relief valve,?& as you probably know, mount it upside down. When you do this youmay be able to see the air bubbling out if you place it upside down inwater, pressurise your arm, & then back the pressure off the regulatoras you have done before.You have gone with the brass & not stainless. Was it a lot cheaper?Does the 3L tank get fed continuously from the main tank, so that if therewas a leak it would drain the whole of your main tank before any pressurein the motor or arm dropped below ambient?If you noticed an unexpected drop in main tank pressure & suspected itwas caused by the thruster, you could shut off air to the regulator & go upknowing that as you ascend you will always have at least ambient pressure.I made enquiries with Fugu sub about compensating & they said theypreferred air for brushed motors & liked to see a bit of air bubbling out asa reassurance they had some positive internal pressure.Cheers Alan? Sent from my iPad On 31/03/2018, at 6:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,I just installed my R364-02B regulator on my arm and the instructions talk about a non relieving model. ?I assume this one is relieving because when I reduce the pressure to the arm the excess pressure bleeds off when turning the adjustment knob. Is that correct? ??Also to anyone with an opinion, the air system regulator for compensation to the arm is literally 1 foot from my side positioning thruster. ?This makes me think I should air compensate that thruster instead of oil. ? The system works with a small 3L air holding tank that is maintained at 300 psi from the main HP tank. ?I am not sure if I should risk feeding the thruster from the small tank, in case the thruster seal ?leaks it could cause the arm to flood. ?Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 16:38:04 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 09:38:04 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] regulator In-Reply-To: <1862780988.302234.1522438810085@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1059872848.262877.1522431800810.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1059872848.262877.1522431800810@mail.yahoo.com> <610C5C6F-877A-41C1-8AA2-E702CCB94294@yahoo.com> <1862780988.302234.1522438810085@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, the tube extension was my idea & I think Cliff agreed on it being helpful. Not sure if he implemented it. Cliff may wade in on this but adding my bit as he is sometimes busy travelling. The thought was that the air in the relief vent may get compressed a long way up in to the handle area & let water go through the relief valve. Another concern is the spring in the handle area that will see water. I went through the process of trying to find a replacement stainless spring for a cheap plastic relieving regulator I bought, but gave up. Might re-look at this. Below is a link to a diagram & explanation of the R364 in case you haven't seen it. Alan https://www.parker.com/literature/Literature%20Files/watts/cat/0300-2_Stainless_FRLs.pdf#page12 Sent from my iPad > On 31/03/2018, at 8:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Thank you for the input. I went with the brass because I was in a hurry and Gamma will never see salt water. The small tank can be fed continuously from the main tank. I will leave the air supply on until I reach bottom then shut the air supply off. I did know to invert the regulator but did not know about a tube that has to be added. Cliff did not mention that? I am sure that air in the motor is better and will take less battery power also. So you think I should air compensate the motor and risk the arm actuators? You have a good point that the actuators would be aired up, I did not think of that. > Hank > > > On Friday, March 30, 2018, 1:31:48 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > if it were a non relieving it would have a K designation after the 02B. > https://store.livhaven.com/downloads/dl/file/id/4873/datasheet.pdf > You will need to take the plastic handle off to put a plastic tube over > the relief valve outlet to help stop any water going past the relief valve, > & as you probably know, mount it upside down. When you do this you > may be able to see the air bubbling out if you place it upside down in > water, pressurise your arm, & then back the pressure off the regulator > as you have done before. > You have gone with the brass & not stainless. Was it a lot cheaper? > Does the 3L tank get fed continuously from the main tank, so that if there > was a leak it would drain the whole of your main tank before any pressure > in the motor or arm dropped below ambient? > If you noticed an unexpected drop in main tank pressure & suspected it > was caused by the thruster, you could shut off air to the regulator & go up > knowing that as you ascend you will always have at least ambient pressure. > I made enquiries with Fugu sub about compensating & they said they > preferred air for brushed motors & liked to see a bit of air bubbling out as > a reassurance they had some positive internal pressure. > Cheers Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 31/03/2018, at 6:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Cliff, >> I just installed my R364-02B regulator on my arm and the instructions talk about a non relieving model. I assume this one is relieving because when I reduce the pressure to the arm the excess pressure bleeds off when turning the adjustment knob. Is that correct? >> Also to anyone with an opinion, the air system regulator for compensation to the arm is literally 1 foot from my side positioning thruster. This makes me think I should air compensate that thruster instead of oil. The system works with a small 3L air holding tank that is maintained at 300 psi from the main HP tank. I am not sure if I should risk feeding the thruster from the small tank, in case the thruster seal leaks it could cause the arm to flood. >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 17:35:52 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 16:35:52 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] regulator In-Reply-To: <1059872848.262877.1522431800810@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1059872848.262877.1522431800810.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1059872848.262877.1522431800810@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As per Alan's note this is the pressure reducing/relieving version. Only difference with mine is I prefer the SS version. I have a single pressure reducing/relieving regulator fed off a scuba regulator LP port pressure compensating 4 minn Kota 101 lower units. I have mine oriented sideways and have not installed the tube Alan discussed as it seems to be working fine the way I have it. I want to get more dive time / experience on the pressure compensation systems before I make any changes. Cliff On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 12:43 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Cliff, > I just installed my R364-02B regulator on my arm and the instructions talk > about a non relieving model. I assume this one is relieving because when I > reduce the pressure to the arm the excess pressure bleeds off when turning > the adjustment knob. Is that correct? > Also to anyone with an opinion, the air system regulator for compensation > to the arm is literally 1 foot from my side positioning thruster. This > makes me think I should air compensate that thruster instead of oil. The > system works with a small 3L air holding tank that is maintained at 300 psi > from the main HP tank. I am not sure if I should risk feeding the thruster > from the small tank, in case the thruster seal leaks it could cause the > arm to flood. > Hank > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 17:45:25 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 21:45:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] regulator In-Reply-To: References: <1059872848.262877.1522431800810.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1059872848.262877.1522431800810@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1920202462.12551.1522446325280@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff, thank you, I will proceed and see how it goes. ?The SS version can come down the road if needed.Hank On Friday, March 30, 2018, 3:36:12 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: As per Alan's note this is the pressure reducing/relieving version.? Only difference with mine is I prefer the SS version.?I have a single pressure reducing/relieving regulator fed off a scuba regulator LP port pressure compensating 4 minn Kota 101 lower units.? I have? mine oriented sideways and have not installed the tube Alan discussed as it seems to be working fine the way I have it.? I want to get more dive time / experience on the pressure compensation systems before I make any changes. Cliff On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 12:43 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,I just installed my R364-02B regulator on my arm and the instructions talk about a non relieving model.? I assume this one is relieving because when I reduce the pressure to the arm the excess pressure bleeds off when turning the adjustment knob. Is that correct? ??Also to anyone with an opinion, the air system regulator for compensation to the arm is literally 1 foot from my side positioning thruster.? This makes me think I should air compensate that thruster instead of oil. ? The system works with a small 3L air holding tank that is maintained at 300 psi from the main HP tank.? I am not sure if I should risk feeding the thruster from the small tank, in case the thruster seal ?leaks it could cause the arm to flood. ?Hank ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 19:19:58 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 12:19:58 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <675157484.101101.1522402902965@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> <0faa01d3c7c2$def44690$9cdcd3b0$@gmail.com> <11BA62B4-3A4C-458C-A308-08A7F4C8B3B5@yahoo.com> <675157484.101101.1522402902965@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0ff301d3c87d$a1b5cdb0$e5216910$@gmail.com> Hank, Alan, It is generally a combination of both. The quality of lathes varies hugely. Generally people doing handyman jobs buy second hand lathes and also small Chinese lathes. The bearing tolerances and bearing configurations in the headstocks is a big issue and on a reasonable lathe can be adjusted but it is fiddly work. Then there is the saddle and cross slides. The better lathes have good length saddles and the cross slides are good widths which is missing on most small Chinese lathes. Old lathes tend to have worn slides, worn cross slide leadscrews and nuts and will have movement in them. The effect of all that is that it has an effect on accuracy and tool pressure. i.e. if you take a heavy cut and then a light cut using the dial or even a digital readout it will not take the intended amount off but will undercut on a heavy cut and you will have to take a spring cut (2nd cut on the same setting) to get your diameter. Your finishing cuts and trial cuts should be the same depth of cut but generally not less than 0.005? or 0 .10 mm. You need to try and have the same tool pressure on your trial finishing cut to your actual finishing cut. Trying to take .001? cut off generally will over cut. You need a fresh tip for final cut otherwise a worn tip edge will tend to push off and then to get it to cut it will then overcut. Cutting speed, tip selection, feed are all really important. As well as good quality CNC machines we also have a couple of old dunga lathes, one Chinese small and one Colchester 2000. Both I bought just to do the odd thing and ended up trying to do more. Both challenging. I often curse myself for getting them. Hank, the things you achieve are pretty amazing and finishing off with emery tape, well I guess you have to do what you have to do. How is that vertical lathe going? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 10:42 PM To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit Alan, I rarely can machine to the tolerance your talking about. I cheat and get very close then finish with a real good flat file then polish the part with progressively finer wet and dry sand paper. I will go right down to 2000 grit some times.. I am not sure if it is me or the lathe. Hank On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 8:43:07 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hugh, I'll have a look in the shops after easter to get a handle on whats available. On the net there seems to be quite a range in prices from about $30- to thousands. Always enjoy visiting your premises & seeing the Q-sub and would appreciate any advice with this precision machining. How is the Q-sub going? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 30/03/2018, at 2:03 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, You are really brave to try and measure that way. Even tele gauges > are hard unless you have a lot of practice with them but not with calipers. > You have to use them with an outside mic to give you a fighting chance as > you have just found out. You should be using a bore Micrometer or at least > inside mic for bearing fits. I think you should pay a visit out to our > workshop if you are planning on doing that sort of thing in future. So much > is in the feel using instruments. CRC do a freeze spray for that sort of > thing as well. As the guys say get the manufacturers recommendations. The > bearings are not universal as they come in different clearances such as C3 > or C4. Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 9:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Thanks for the advice guys. > The bearing diameters are 35 & 24mm. > I went to a lot of fuss last time I did this & ended up having to use > loctite as the last pass on the lathe took too much off. > Emile, I will shoot for .02-.03mm & see how that goes. Have found other > advice saying .03. But found a lot of confusing information googling. > I was intending to heat & freeze parts prior to pressing. > Hugh, I have been using inside callipers & measuring off these with the > digital callipers. > The digital callipers are on the cheap side so may upgrade them & as you > say, purchase telescopic gauges the right size. > Also on my radar is a 10 ton hydraulic hand operated press, as I am also > press fitting the two end sections of the thruster in to a tubular middle > section. I am figuring that with epoxy in the press fit, screws & an epoxy > paint finish it should be water tight without o-rings. > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 30/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Alan, >> What diameter is the bearing? >> As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy. >> Do you have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size? If you >> are relying on digital calipers you are playing with fire. The answer >> to your question is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock >> but they don't have much push. You can use a vice as well if it is in >> good condition. I suspect you are talking about something that is >> possibly only 30-40mm. It is very easy to over machine but you can use > Loctite if you want to. >> Suggest you try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first. Easy >> to machine it off after or push it right through. >> Hugh >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit >> >> Hi, >> I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing >> & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my >> bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the >> bearing in to the press fit. >> I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, >> which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as >> there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. >> I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the >> bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the >> work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right > diameter. >> Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 19:45:31 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 23:45:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <0ff301d3c87d$a1b5cdb0$e5216910$@gmail.com> References: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> <0faa01d3c7c2$def44690$9cdcd3b0$@gmail.com> <11BA62B4-3A4C-458C-A308-08A7F4C8B3B5@yahoo.com> <675157484.101101.1522402902965@mail.yahoo.com> <0ff301d3c87d$a1b5cdb0$e5216910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1917134789.18611.1522453531574@mail.yahoo.com> Hugh, my vertical lathe is sitting in a dry shop waiting for a gen set to run it. ?I bought it when I did because the deal came along. ?You know how it is, the best deals come when it is most inconvenient or when your broke. ?My brother in law lives in Holland and works as a machinist and knows how to operate my vertical lathe. ?I may lure him here to teach me how to operate it. ?Hank On Friday, March 30, 2018, 5:20:25 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv9130369131 #yiv9130369131 -- _filtered #yiv9130369131 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9130369131 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9130369131 {}#yiv9130369131 #yiv9130369131 p.yiv9130369131MsoNormal, #yiv9130369131 li.yiv9130369131MsoNormal, #yiv9130369131 div.yiv9130369131MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:New;}#yiv9130369131 a:link, #yiv9130369131 span.yiv9130369131MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9130369131 a:visited, #yiv9130369131 span.yiv9130369131MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9130369131 span.yiv9130369131EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9130369131 .yiv9130369131MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9130369131 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv9130369131 div.yiv9130369131WordSection1 {}#yiv9130369131 Hank, Alan, It is generally a combination of both. The quality of lathes varies hugely.? Generally people doing handyman jobs buy second hand lathes and also small Chinese lathes.? The bearing tolerances and bearing configurations in the headstocks is a big issue and on a reasonable lathe can be adjusted but it is fiddly work.? Then there is the saddle ?and cross slides.? The better lathes have good length saddles and the cross slides are good widths which is missing on most small Chinese lathes.? Old lathes tend to have worn slides, worn cross slide leadscrews and nuts and will have movement in them.? The effect of all that is that it has an effect on accuracy and tool pressure. i.e. if you take a heavy cut and then a light cut using the dial or even a digital readout it will not take the intended amount off but will undercut on a heavy cut and you will have to take a spring cut (2nd cut on the same setting) to get your diameter.? Your finishing cuts and trial cuts should be the same depth of cut but generally not less than 0.005? or 0 .10 mm.? You need to try and have the same tool pressure on your trial finishing cut to your actual finishing cut.? Trying to take .001? cut off generally will over cut.? You need a fresh tip for final cut otherwise a worn tip edge ?will tend to push off and then to get it to cut it will then overcut.? Cutting speed, tip selection, feed are all really important.? As well as good quality CNC machines we also have a couple of old dunga lathes, one Chinese small and one Colchester 2000. Both I bought just to do the odd thing and ended up trying to do more. ?Both challenging.? I often curse myself for getting them. Hank, the things you achieve are pretty amazing and finishing off with emery tape, well I guess you have to do what you have to do.? How is that vertical lathe going?? ?? ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 10:42 PM To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit ? Alan, I rarely can machine to the tolerance your talking about. ?I cheat and get very close then finish with a real good flat file then polish the part with progressively finer wet and dry sand paper. ?I will go right down to 2000 grit some times.. ?I am not sure if it is me or the lathe. Hank ? On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 8:43:07 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? Thanks Hugh, I'll have a look in the shops after easter to get a handle on whats available. On the net there seems to be quite a range in prices from about $30- to thousands. Always enjoy visiting your premises & seeing the Q-sub and would appreciate any advice with this precision machining. How is the Q-sub going? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 30/03/2018, at 2:03 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan,? You are really brave to try and measure that way.? Even tele gauges > are hard unless you have a lot of practice with them but not with calipers. > You have to use them with an outside mic to give you a fighting chance as > you have just found out.? You should be using a bore Micrometer or at least > inside mic for bearing fits.? I think you should pay a visit out to our > workshop if you are planning on doing that sort of thing in future. So much > is in the feel using instruments.? CRC do a freeze spray for that sort of > thing as well.? As the guys say get the manufacturers recommendations.? The > bearings are not universal as they come in different clearances such as C3 > or C4.? Hugh? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 9:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Thanks for the advice guys. > The bearing diameters are 35 & 24mm. > I went to a lot of fuss last time I did this & ended up having to use > loctite as the last pass on the lathe took too much off. > Emile, I will shoot for .02-.03mm & see how that goes. Have found other > advice saying .03. But found a lot of confusing information googling. > I was intending to heat & freeze parts prior to pressing. > Hugh, I have been using inside callipers & measuring? off these with the > digital callipers. > The digital callipers are on the cheap side so may upgrade them & as you > say, purchase telescopic gauges the right size. > Also on my radar is a 10 ton hydraulic hand operated press, as I am also > press fitting the two end sections of the thruster in to a tubular middle > section. I am figuring that with epoxy in the press fit, screws & an epoxy > paint finish it should be water tight without o-rings. > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 30/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Alan, >> What diameter is the bearing? >> As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy.? >> Do you have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size?? If you >> are relying on digital calipers you are playing with fire.? The answer >> to your question is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock >> but they don't have much push.? You can use a vice as well if it is in >> good condition.? I suspect you are talking about something that is >> possibly only 30-40mm.? It is very easy to over machine but you can use > Loctite if you want to. >> Suggest you? try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first.? Easy >> to machine it off after or push it right through. >> Hugh >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit >> >> Hi, >> I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing >> & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my >> bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the >> bearing in to the press fit. >> I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, >> which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as >> there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. >> I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the >> bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the >> work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right > diameter. >> Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 20:32:40 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 19:32:40 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air flow vs. water flow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To get a first order approximation, assume turbulent pressure drop in a pipe nipple. Write two cases, one for air and one for water at same temperature and pressure near surface and same pressure drop . This will give you that the Vair is equal to Vwat times the square root of ratio of water over density over air and ratio of friction factor of water over the friction factor of air. Assume friction factors are the same for first order approximation. Va=Vw*(density_w/densityair * fw/fa)^0.5 At the surface this reduces to Va=29*Vw for the same pressure drop. So if took 60 sections for water, it would take 2 seconds for air. This assumes the limiting factor is the turbulent pressure drop through the MBT vent valve. If the MBT flood valve was to small, then, it would start to impact how quickly the MBT would fill with water. In the real world it is a combination of the turbulent frictional resisence through both the MBT vent and flood valves. For better approximation use CFD code to model the MBT including the MBT vent and flood ports. What hank would have already done. Find a 55 gal oil drum from behind his shop. Remove the 2" cap from the top and turn the drum upside down. Cut out a hole to fit the new MBT valve. Put the drum and attached MBT valve in the back of his truck and head to the nearest lake. Suspend a 20 lb weight below the drum so it floats. Open the MBT and measure how long this MBT takes to completely flood. Prorate this time based on volume of Psub MBT compared to 55 gals. Cliff On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I was testing one of my new MBTs yesterday, removed from the sub, by > turning it upside down and filling it with water, then opening the mushroom > valve to let the water out. It takes 60 seconds to empty. In actual > operation it will be air instead of water coming out that valve. The > pressure will be the same, but because it will be air instead of water the > tank should empty much faster. The question is, does anyone know more or > less *how much* faster? One should be able to calculate this with > Bernoulli's formula, but this is very turbulent flow so not sure if it > would really hold. Any rules of thumb? > > > Thanks, > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 20:41:30 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 20:41:30 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air flow vs. water flow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Cliff! It's hard to follow equations when they are written in words, but a bottom line of 2 seconds sounds like quite fast enough. I was actually testing the valve itself with this method, checking that it sealed well, and the speed data point was just an interesting byproduct. But it's good, it gives me a rough enough idea to be actionable. I think the action will be to protect those valve handles against accidental activation. I love the idea of diving fast, but I don't want a passenger coming aboard to hit a valve with his toes and dive the sub in two seconds! Best, Alec On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > To get a first order approximation, assume turbulent pressure drop in a > pipe nipple. Write two cases, one for air and one for water at same > temperature and pressure near surface and same pressure drop . This will > give you that the Vair is equal to Vwat times the square root of ratio of > water over density over air and ratio of friction factor of water over > the friction factor of air. Assume friction factors are the same for first > order approximation. Va=Vw*(density_w/densityair * fw/fa)^0.5 At the > surface this reduces to Va=29*Vw for the same pressure drop. So if took 60 > sections for water, it would take 2 seconds for air. This assumes the > limiting factor is the turbulent pressure drop through the MBT vent valve. > If the MBT flood valve was to small, then, it would start to impact how > quickly the MBT would fill with water. In the real world it is a > combination of the turbulent frictional resisence through both the MBT vent > and flood valves. For better approximation use CFD code to model the MBT > including the MBT vent and flood ports. > > What hank would have already done. Find a 55 gal oil drum from behind his > shop. Remove the 2" cap from the top and turn the drum upside down. Cut > out a hole to fit the new MBT valve. Put the drum and attached MBT valve > in the back of his truck and head to the nearest lake. Suspend a 20 lb > weight below the drum so it floats. Open the MBT and measure how long this > MBT takes to completely flood. Prorate this time based on volume of Psub > MBT compared to 55 gals. > > Cliff > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> I was testing one of my new MBTs yesterday, removed from the sub, by >> turning it upside down and filling it with water, then opening the mushroom >> valve to let the water out. It takes 60 seconds to empty. In actual >> operation it will be air instead of water coming out that valve. The >> pressure will be the same, but because it will be air instead of water the >> tank should empty much faster. The question is, does anyone know more or >> less *how much* faster? One should be able to calculate this with >> Bernoulli's formula, but this is very turbulent flow so not sure if it >> would really hold. Any rules of thumb? >> >> >> Thanks, >> Alec >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 20:50:16 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 00:50:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air flow vs. water flow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <526898468.56302.1522457416341@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff, your right, you would figure it out during a commercial watching the football game on Sunday. I would drive to the lake, annoy a fisherman, lie to a tree hugger and probably be late for supper. But in the end we would both have it.Hank On Friday, March 30, 2018, 6:32:59 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: To get a first order approximation, assume turbulent pressure drop in a pipe nipple.? Write two cases, one for air and one for water at same temperature and pressure near surface and same pressure drop?.? This will give you that the Vair is equal to?Vwat times the square root of ratio of water over density over air? and ratio of ?friction factor of water over the friction factor of air.? Assume friction factors are the same for first order approximation.?? Va=Vw*(density_w/densityair * fw/fa)^0.5?At the surface this reduces to Va=29*Vw for the same pressure drop.? So if took 60 sections for water, it would take 2 seconds for air.? This assumes the limiting factor is the turbulent pressure drop through the MBT vent valve.? If the MBT flood valve was to small, then, it would start to impact how quickly the MBT would fill with water.? In the real world it is a combination of the?turbulent frictional resisence through both the MBT vent and flood valves. ? For better approximation use CFD code to model the MBT including the MBT vent and flood ports. What hank would have already done.? Find a 55 gal oil drum from behind his shop.? Remove the 2" cap from the top and turn the drum upside down.?Cut out a hole to fit the new MBT valve.? Put the drum and attached MBT valve in the back of his truck and head to the nearest lake.? Suspend a 20 lb weight below the drum so it floats.? Open the MBT and measure how long this MBT takes to completely flood.? Prorate this time based on volume of Psub MBT compared to 55 gals.? Cliff On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi everyone, I was testing one of my new MBTs yesterday, removed from the sub, by turning it upside down and filling it with water, then opening the mushroom valve to let the water out. It takes 60 seconds to empty. In actual operation it will be air instead of water coming out that valve. The pressure will be the same, but because it will be air instead of water the tank should empty much faster. The question is, does anyone know more or less how much faster? One should be able to calculate this with Bernoulli's formula, but this is very turbulent flow so not sure if it would really hold. Any rules of thumb? Thanks,Alec ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 21:25:24 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 18:25:24 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air flow vs. water flow Message-ID: <1402840097.14548.1522459524239@wamui-duchess.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 22:53:32 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 15:53:32 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air flow vs. water flow In-Reply-To: <526898468.56302.1522457416341@mail.yahoo.com> References: <526898468.56302.1522457416341@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0DAD79F6-996D-4A3F-BB37-F078E6ED5B3D@yahoo.com> Hank, I sit in your camp. It is probably quicker than studying maths for several years! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 31/03/2018, at 1:50 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, your right, you would figure it out during a commercial watching the football game on Sunday. I would drive to the lake, annoy a fisherman, lie to a tree hugger and probably be late for supper. But in the end we would both have it. > Hank > > On Friday, March 30, 2018, 6:32:59 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > To get a first order approximation, assume turbulent pressure drop in a pipe nipple. Write two cases, one for air and one for water at same temperature and pressure near surface and same pressure drop . This will give you that the Vair is equal to Vwat times the square root of ratio of water over density over air and ratio of friction factor of water over the friction factor of air. Assume friction factors are the same for first order approximation. Va=Vw*(density_w/densityair * fw/fa)^0.5 At the surface this reduces to Va=29*Vw for the same pressure drop. So if took 60 sections for water, it would take 2 seconds for air. This assumes the limiting factor is the turbulent pressure drop through the MBT vent valve. If the MBT flood valve was to small, then, it would start to impact how quickly the MBT would fill with water. In the real world it is a combination of the turbulent frictional resisence through both the MBT vent and flood valves. For better approximation use CFD code to model the MBT including the MBT vent and flood ports. > > What hank would have already done. Find a 55 gal oil drum from behind his shop. Remove the 2" cap from the top and turn the drum upside down. Cut out a hole to fit the new MBT valve. Put the drum and attached MBT valve in the back of his truck and head to the nearest lake. Suspend a 20 lb weight below the drum so it floats. Open the MBT and measure how long this MBT takes to completely flood. Prorate this time based on volume of Psub MBT compared to 55 gals. > > Cliff > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I was testing one of my new MBTs yesterday, removed from the sub, by turning it upside down and filling it with water, then opening the mushroom valve to let the water out. It takes 60 seconds to empty. In actual operation it will be air instead of water coming out that valve. The pressure will be the same, but because it will be air instead of water the tank should empty much faster. The question is, does anyone know more or less how much faster? One should be able to calculate this with Bernoulli's formula, but this is very turbulent flow so not sure if it would really hold. Any rules of thumb? > > > Thanks, > Alec > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 22:59:56 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 15:59:56 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <0ff301d3c87d$a1b5cdb0$e5216910$@gmail.com> References: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> <0faa01d3c7c2$def44690$9cdcd3b0$@gmail.com> <11BA62B4-3A4C-458C-A308-08A7F4C8B3B5@yahoo.com> <675157484.101101.1522402902965@mail.yahoo.com> <0ff301d3c87d$a1b5cdb0$e5216910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hugh, I might have to go close & follow Hank's sand paper example, & as you suggested, do a trial press fit first. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 31/03/2018, at 12:19 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, Alan, > It is generally a combination of both. > The quality of lathes varies hugely. Generally people doing handyman jobs buy second hand lathes and also small Chinese lathes. The bearing tolerances and bearing configurations in the headstocks is a big issue and on a reasonable lathe can be adjusted but it is fiddly work. Then there is the saddle and cross slides. The better lathes have good length saddles and the cross slides are good widths which is missing on most small Chinese lathes. Old lathes tend to have worn slides, worn cross slide leadscrews and nuts and will have movement in them. The effect of all that is that it has an effect on accuracy and tool pressure. i.e. if you take a heavy cut and then a light cut using the dial or even a digital readout it will not take the intended amount off but will undercut on a heavy cut and you will have to take a spring cut (2nd cut on the same setting) to get your diameter. Your finishing cuts and trial cuts should be the same depth of cut but generally not less than 0.005? or 0 .10 mm. You need to try and have the same tool pressure on your trial finishing cut to your actual finishing cut. Trying to take .001? cut off generally will over cut. You need a fresh tip for final cut otherwise a worn tip edge will tend to push off and then to get it to cut it will then overcut. Cutting speed, tip selection, feed are all really important. As well as good quality CNC machines we also have a couple of old dunga lathes, one Chinese small and one Colchester 2000. Both I bought just to do the odd thing and ended up trying to do more. Both challenging. I often curse myself for getting them. > Hank, the things you achieve are pretty amazing and finishing off with emery tape, well I guess you have to do what you have to do. How is that vertical lathe going? > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 10:42 PM > To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Alan, I rarely can machine to the tolerance your talking about. I cheat and get very close then finish with a real good flat file then polish the part with progressively finer wet and dry sand paper. I will go right down to 2000 grit some times.. I am not sure if it is me or the lathe. > Hank > > On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 8:43:07 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Hugh, > I'll have a look in the shops after easter to get a handle on whats available. > On the net there seems to be quite a range in prices from about $30- to thousands. > Always enjoy visiting your premises & seeing the Q-sub and would appreciate > any advice with this precision machining. > How is the Q-sub going? > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 30/03/2018, at 2:03 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Alan, You are really brave to try and measure that way. Even tele gauges > > are hard unless you have a lot of practice with them but not with calipers. > > You have to use them with an outside mic to give you a fighting chance as > > you have just found out. You should be using a bore Micrometer or at least > > inside mic for bearing fits. I think you should pay a visit out to our > > workshop if you are planning on doing that sort of thing in future. So much > > is in the feel using instruments. CRC do a freeze spray for that sort of > > thing as well. As the guys say get the manufacturers recommendations. The > > bearings are not universal as they come in different clearances such as C3 > > or C4. Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 9:49 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > > > Thanks for the advice guys. > > The bearing diameters are 35 & 24mm. > > I went to a lot of fuss last time I did this & ended up having to use > > loctite as the last pass on the lathe took too much off. > > Emile, I will shoot for .02-.03mm & see how that goes. Have found other > > advice saying .03. But found a lot of confusing information googling. > > I was intending to heat & freeze parts prior to pressing. > > Hugh, I have been using inside callipers & measuring off these with the > > digital callipers. > > The digital callipers are on the cheap side so may upgrade them & as you > > say, purchase telescopic gauges the right size. > > Also on my radar is a 10 ton hydraulic hand operated press, as I am also > > press fitting the two end sections of the thruster in to a tubular middle > > section. I am figuring that with epoxy in the press fit, screws & an epoxy > > paint finish it should be water tight without o-rings. > > Cheers Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >> On 30/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > >> > >> Alan, > >> What diameter is the bearing? > >> As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy. > >> Do you have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size? If you > >> are relying on digital calipers you are playing with fire. The answer > >> to your question is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock > >> but they don't have much push. You can use a vice as well if it is in > >> good condition. I suspect you are talking about something that is > >> possibly only 30-40mm. It is very easy to over machine but you can use > > Loctite if you want to. > >> Suggest you try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first. Easy > >> to machine it off after or push it right through. > >> Hugh > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Personal_Submersibles > >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > >> On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > >> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM > >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > >> > >> Hi, > >> I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing > >> & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my > >> bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the > >> bearing in to the press fit. > >> I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, > >> which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as > >> there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. > >> I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the > >> bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the > >> work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right > > diameter. > >> Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. > >> Alan > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Mar 30 22:59:56 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 15:59:56 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <0ff301d3c87d$a1b5cdb0$e5216910$@gmail.com> References: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> <0faa01d3c7c2$def44690$9cdcd3b0$@gmail.com> <11BA62B4-3A4C-458C-A308-08A7F4C8B3B5@yahoo.com> <675157484.101101.1522402902965@mail.yahoo.com> <0ff301d3c87d$a1b5cdb0$e5216910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hugh, I might have to go close & follow Hank's sand paper example, & as you suggested, do a trial press fit first. Alan Sent from my iPad > On 31/03/2018, at 12:19 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, Alan, > It is generally a combination of both. > The quality of lathes varies hugely. Generally people doing handyman jobs buy second hand lathes and also small Chinese lathes. The bearing tolerances and bearing configurations in the headstocks is a big issue and on a reasonable lathe can be adjusted but it is fiddly work. Then there is the saddle and cross slides. The better lathes have good length saddles and the cross slides are good widths which is missing on most small Chinese lathes. Old lathes tend to have worn slides, worn cross slide leadscrews and nuts and will have movement in them. The effect of all that is that it has an effect on accuracy and tool pressure. i.e. if you take a heavy cut and then a light cut using the dial or even a digital readout it will not take the intended amount off but will undercut on a heavy cut and you will have to take a spring cut (2nd cut on the same setting) to get your diameter. Your finishing cuts and trial cuts should be the same depth of cut but generally not less than 0.005? or 0 .10 mm. You need to try and have the same tool pressure on your trial finishing cut to your actual finishing cut. Trying to take .001? cut off generally will over cut. You need a fresh tip for final cut otherwise a worn tip edge will tend to push off and then to get it to cut it will then overcut. Cutting speed, tip selection, feed are all really important. As well as good quality CNC machines we also have a couple of old dunga lathes, one Chinese small and one Colchester 2000. Both I bought just to do the odd thing and ended up trying to do more. Both challenging. I often curse myself for getting them. > Hank, the things you achieve are pretty amazing and finishing off with emery tape, well I guess you have to do what you have to do. How is that vertical lathe going? > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 10:42 PM > To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Alan, I rarely can machine to the tolerance your talking about. I cheat and get very close then finish with a real good flat file then polish the part with progressively finer wet and dry sand paper. I will go right down to 2000 grit some times.. I am not sure if it is me or the lathe. > Hank > > On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 8:43:07 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Hugh, > I'll have a look in the shops after easter to get a handle on whats available. > On the net there seems to be quite a range in prices from about $30- to thousands. > Always enjoy visiting your premises & seeing the Q-sub and would appreciate > any advice with this precision machining. > How is the Q-sub going? > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 30/03/2018, at 2:03 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Alan, You are really brave to try and measure that way. Even tele gauges > > are hard unless you have a lot of practice with them but not with calipers. > > You have to use them with an outside mic to give you a fighting chance as > > you have just found out. You should be using a bore Micrometer or at least > > inside mic for bearing fits. I think you should pay a visit out to our > > workshop if you are planning on doing that sort of thing in future. So much > > is in the feel using instruments. CRC do a freeze spray for that sort of > > thing as well. As the guys say get the manufacturers recommendations. The > > bearings are not universal as they come in different clearances such as C3 > > or C4. Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 9:49 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > > > Thanks for the advice guys. > > The bearing diameters are 35 & 24mm. > > I went to a lot of fuss last time I did this & ended up having to use > > loctite as the last pass on the lathe took too much off. > > Emile, I will shoot for .02-.03mm & see how that goes. Have found other > > advice saying .03. But found a lot of confusing information googling. > > I was intending to heat & freeze parts prior to pressing. > > Hugh, I have been using inside callipers & measuring off these with the > > digital callipers. > > The digital callipers are on the cheap side so may upgrade them & as you > > say, purchase telescopic gauges the right size. > > Also on my radar is a 10 ton hydraulic hand operated press, as I am also > > press fitting the two end sections of the thruster in to a tubular middle > > section. I am figuring that with epoxy in the press fit, screws & an epoxy > > paint finish it should be water tight without o-rings. > > Cheers Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >> On 30/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > >> > >> Alan, > >> What diameter is the bearing? > >> As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy. > >> Do you have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size? If you > >> are relying on digital calipers you are playing with fire. The answer > >> to your question is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock > >> but they don't have much push. You can use a vice as well if it is in > >> good condition. I suspect you are talking about something that is > >> possibly only 30-40mm. It is very easy to over machine but you can use > > Loctite if you want to. > >> Suggest you try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first. Easy > >> to machine it off after or push it right through. > >> Hugh > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Personal_Submersibles > >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > >> On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > >> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM > >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > >> > >> Hi, > >> I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing > >> & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my > >> bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the > >> bearing in to the press fit. > >> I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, > >> which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as > >> there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. > >> I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the > >> bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the > >> work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right > > diameter. > >> Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. > >> Alan > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 31 05:49:49 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 09:49:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: References: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> <0faa01d3c7c2$def44690$9cdcd3b0$@gmail.com> <11BA62B4-3A4C-458C-A308-08A7F4C8B3B5@yahoo.com> <675157484.101101.1522402902965@mail.yahoo.com> <0ff301d3c87d$a1b5cdb0$e5216910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <554128937.116127.1522489789120@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, I assume you know the grease trick to remove a bearing or bushing that is press fit inside a housing. ?Assuming it is a sealed bearing, find a scrap piece of shaft that fits the bearing hole but not tight. ?The shaft needs to slide easily in the hole, then fill the bearing centre hole with grease, then put the shaft in the hole. ?If you have to remove a bit of grease to start the shaft, thats fine, then hit the other end of the shaft with a hammer to compress the grease. ?The compressed grease will push the bering out.Hank On Friday, March 30, 2018, 9:00:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hugh,I might have to go close & follow Hank's sand paper example, & as yousuggested, do a trial press fit first.Alan Sent from my iPad On 31/03/2018, at 12:19 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv8976672677 #yiv8976672677 -- _filtered #yiv8976672677 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8976672677 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8976672677 {}#yiv8976672677 #yiv8976672677 p.yiv8976672677MsoNormal, #yiv8976672677 li.yiv8976672677MsoNormal, #yiv8976672677 div.yiv8976672677MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:New;}#yiv8976672677 a:link, #yiv8976672677 span.yiv8976672677MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8976672677 a:visited, #yiv8976672677 span.yiv8976672677MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8976672677 span.yiv8976672677EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8976672677 .yiv8976672677MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8976672677 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv8976672677 div.yiv8976672677WordSection1 {}#yiv8976672677 Hank, Alan, It is generally a combination of both. The quality of lathes varies hugely.? Generally people doing handyman jobs buy second hand lathes and also small Chinese lathes.? The bearing tolerances and bearing configurations in the headstocks is a big issue and on a reasonable lathe can be adjusted but it is fiddly work.? Then there is the saddle ?and cross slides.? The better lathes have good length saddles and the cross slides are good widths which is missing on most small Chinese lathes.? Old lathes tend to have worn slides, worn cross slide leadscrews and nuts and will have movement in them.? The effect of all that is that it has an effect on accuracy and tool pressure. i.e. if you take a heavy cut and then a light cut using the dial or even a digital readout it will not take the intended amount off but will undercut on a heavy cut and you will have to take a spring cut (2nd cut on the same setting) to get your diameter.? Your finishing cuts and trial cuts should be the same depth of cut but generally not less than 0.005? or 0 .10 mm.? You need to try and have the same tool pressure on your trial finishing cut to your actual finishing cut.? Trying to take .001? cut off generally will over cut.? You need a fresh tip for final cut otherwise a worn tip edge ?will tend to push off and then to get it to cut it will then overcut.? Cutting speed, tip selection, feed are all really important.? As well as good quality CNC machines we also have a couple of old dunga lathes, one Chinese small and one Colchester 2000. Both I bought just to do the odd thing and ended up trying to do more. ?Both challenging.? I often curse myself for getting them. Hank, the things you achieve are pretty amazing and finishing off with emery tape, well I guess you have to do what you have to do.? How is that vertical lathe going?? ?? ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 10:42 PM To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit ? Alan, I rarely can machine to the tolerance your talking about. ?I cheat and get very close then finish with a real good flat file then polish the part with progressively finer wet and dry sand paper. ?I will go right down to 2000 grit some times.. ?I am not sure if it is me or the lathe. Hank ? On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 8:43:07 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? Thanks Hugh, I'll have a look in the shops after easter to get a handle on whats available. On the net there seems to be quite a range in prices from about $30- to thousands. Always enjoy visiting your premises & seeing the Q-sub and would appreciate any advice with this precision machining. How is the Q-sub going? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 30/03/2018, at 2:03 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan,? You are really brave to try and measure that way.? Even tele gauges > are hard unless you have a lot of practice with them but not with calipers. > You have to use them with an outside mic to give you a fighting chance as > you have just found out.? You should be using a bore Micrometer or at least > inside mic for bearing fits.? I think you should pay a visit out to our > workshop if you are planning on doing that sort of thing in future. So much > is in the feel using instruments.? CRC do a freeze spray for that sort of > thing as well.? As the guys say get the manufacturers recommendations.? The > bearings are not universal as they come in different clearances such as C3 > or C4.? Hugh? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 9:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Thanks for the advice guys. > The bearing diameters are 35 & 24mm. > I went to a lot of fuss last time I did this & ended up having to use > loctite as the last pass on the lathe took too much off. > Emile, I will shoot for .02-.03mm & see how that goes. Have found other > advice saying .03. But found a lot of confusing information googling. > I was intending to heat & freeze parts prior to pressing. > Hugh, I have been using inside callipers & measuring? off these with the > digital callipers. > The digital callipers are on the cheap side so may upgrade them & as you > say, purchase telescopic gauges the right size. > Also on my radar is a 10 ton hydraulic hand operated press, as I am also > press fitting the two end sections of the thruster in to a tubular middle > section. I am figuring that with epoxy in the press fit, screws & an epoxy > paint finish it should be water tight without o-rings. > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 30/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Alan, >> What diameter is the bearing? >> As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy.? >> Do you have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size?? If you >> are relying on digital calipers you are playing with fire.? The answer >> to your question is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock >> but they don't have much push.? You can use a vice as well if it is in >> good condition.? I suspect you are talking about something that is >> possibly only 30-40mm.? It is very easy to over machine but you can use > Loctite if you want to. >> Suggest you? try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first.? Easy >> to machine it off after or push it right through. >> Hugh >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit >> >> Hi, >> I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing >> & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my >> bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the >> bearing in to the press fit. >> I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, >> which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as >> there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. >> I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the >> bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the >> work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right > diameter. >> Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 31 06:07:40 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 23:07:40 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <554128937.116127.1522489789120@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> <0faa01d3c7c2$def44690$9cdcd3b0$@gmail.com> <11BA62B4-3A4C-458C-A308-08A7F4C8B3B5@yahoo.com> <675157484.101101.1522402902965@mail.yahoo.com> <0ff301d3c87d$a1b5cdb0$e5216910$@gmail.com> <554128937.116127.1522489789120@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50676B82-B8E3-4A69-A679-014B7A3B40B6@yahoo.com> Hank, no I didn't know that! Sounds a good trick. My bearings aren't sealed though, as I need the compensating oil to move through them. It may still work! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 31/03/2018, at 10:49 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I assume you know the grease trick to remove a bearing or bushing that is press fit inside a housing. Assuming it is a sealed bearing, find a scrap piece of shaft that fits the bearing hole but not tight. The shaft needs to slide easily in the hole, then fill the bearing centre hole with grease, then put the shaft in the hole. If you have to remove a bit of grease to start the shaft, thats fine, then hit the other end of the shaft with a hammer to compress the grease. The compressed grease will push the bering out. > Hank > > On Friday, March 30, 2018, 9:00:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Hugh, > I might have to go close & follow Hank's sand paper example, & as you > suggested, do a trial press fit first. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 31/03/2018, at 12:19 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > Hank, Alan, > > It is generally a combination of both. > > The quality of lathes varies hugely. Generally people doing handyman jobs buy second hand lathes and also small Chinese lathes. The bearing tolerances and bearing configurations in the headstocks is a big issue and on a reasonable lathe can be adjusted but it is fiddly work. Then there is the saddle and cross slides. The better lathes have good length saddles and the cross slides are good widths which is missing on most small Chinese lathes. Old lathes tend to have worn slides, worn cross slide leadscrews and nuts and will have movement in them. The effect of all that is that it has an effect on accuracy and tool pressure. i.e. if you take a heavy cut and then a light cut using the dial or even a digital readout it will not take the intended amount off but will undercut on a heavy cut and you will have to take a spring cut (2nd cut on the same setting) to get your diameter. Your finishing cuts and trial cuts should be the same depth of cut but generally not less than 0.005? or 0 .10 mm. You need to try and have the same tool pressure on your trial finishing cut to your actual finishing cut. Trying to take .001? cut off generally will over cut. You need a fresh tip for final cut otherwise a worn tip edge will tend to push off and then to get it to cut it will then overcut. Cutting speed, tip selection, feed are all really important. As well as good quality CNC machines we also have a couple of old dunga lathes, one Chinese small and one Colchester 2000. Both I bought just to do the odd thing and ended up trying to do more. Both challenging. I often curse myself for getting them. > > Hank, the things you achieve are pretty amazing and finishing off with emery tape, well I guess you have to do what you have to do. How is that vertical lathe going? > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 10:42 PM > To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > > > Alan, I rarely can machine to the tolerance your talking about. I cheat and get very close then finish with a real good flat file then polish the part with progressively finer wet and dry sand paper. I will go right down to 2000 grit some times.. I am not sure if it is me or the lathe. > > Hank > > > > On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 8:43:07 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Hugh, > I'll have a look in the shops after easter to get a handle on whats available. > On the net there seems to be quite a range in prices from about $30- to thousands. > Always enjoy visiting your premises & seeing the Q-sub and would appreciate > any advice with this precision machining. > How is the Q-sub going? > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 30/03/2018, at 2:03 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Alan, You are really brave to try and measure that way. Even tele gauges > > are hard unless you have a lot of practice with them but not with calipers. > > You have to use them with an outside mic to give you a fighting chance as > > you have just found out. You should be using a bore Micrometer or at least > > inside mic for bearing fits. I think you should pay a visit out to our > > workshop if you are planning on doing that sort of thing in future. So much > > is in the feel using instruments. CRC do a freeze spray for that sort of > > thing as well. As the guys say get the manufacturers recommendations. The > > bearings are not universal as they come in different clearances such as C3 > > or C4. Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 9:49 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > > > Thanks for the advice guys. > > The bearing diameters are 35 & 24mm. > > I went to a lot of fuss last time I did this & ended up having to use > > loctite as the last pass on the lathe took too much off. > > Emile, I will shoot for .02-.03mm & see how that goes. Have found other > > advice saying .03. But found a lot of confusing information googling. > > I was intending to heat & freeze parts prior to pressing. > > Hugh, I have been using inside callipers & measuring off these with the > > digital callipers. > > The digital callipers are on the cheap side so may upgrade them & as you > > say, purchase telescopic gauges the right size. > > Also on my radar is a 10 ton hydraulic hand operated press, as I am also > > press fitting the two end sections of the thruster in to a tubular middle > > section. I am figuring that with epoxy in the press fit, screws & an epoxy > > paint finish it should be water tight without o-rings. > > Cheers Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >> On 30/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > >> > >> Alan, > >> What diameter is the bearing? > >> As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy. > >> Do you have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size? If you > >> are relying on digital calipers you are playing with fire. The answer > >> to your question is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock > >> but they don't have much push. You can use a vice as well if it is in > >> good condition. I suspect you are talking about something that is > >> possibly only 30-40mm. It is very easy to over machine but you can use > > Loctite if you want to. > >> Suggest you try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first. Easy > >> to machine it off after or push it right through. > >> Hugh > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Personal_Submersibles > >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > >> On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > >> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM > >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > >> > >> Hi, > >> I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing > >> & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my > >> bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the > >> bearing in to the press fit. > >> I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, > >> which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as > >> there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. > >> I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the > >> bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the > >> work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right > > diameter. > >> Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. > >> Alan > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 31 06:07:40 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 23:07:40 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <554128937.116127.1522489789120@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> <0faa01d3c7c2$def44690$9cdcd3b0$@gmail.com> <11BA62B4-3A4C-458C-A308-08A7F4C8B3B5@yahoo.com> <675157484.101101.1522402902965@mail.yahoo.com> <0ff301d3c87d$a1b5cdb0$e5216910$@gmail.com> <554128937.116127.1522489789120@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50676B82-B8E3-4A69-A679-014B7A3B40B6@yahoo.com> Hank, no I didn't know that! Sounds a good trick. My bearings aren't sealed though, as I need the compensating oil to move through them. It may still work! Alan Sent from my iPad > On 31/03/2018, at 10:49 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I assume you know the grease trick to remove a bearing or bushing that is press fit inside a housing. Assuming it is a sealed bearing, find a scrap piece of shaft that fits the bearing hole but not tight. The shaft needs to slide easily in the hole, then fill the bearing centre hole with grease, then put the shaft in the hole. If you have to remove a bit of grease to start the shaft, thats fine, then hit the other end of the shaft with a hammer to compress the grease. The compressed grease will push the bering out. > Hank > > On Friday, March 30, 2018, 9:00:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Hugh, > I might have to go close & follow Hank's sand paper example, & as you > suggested, do a trial press fit first. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 31/03/2018, at 12:19 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > Hank, Alan, > > It is generally a combination of both. > > The quality of lathes varies hugely. Generally people doing handyman jobs buy second hand lathes and also small Chinese lathes. The bearing tolerances and bearing configurations in the headstocks is a big issue and on a reasonable lathe can be adjusted but it is fiddly work. Then there is the saddle and cross slides. The better lathes have good length saddles and the cross slides are good widths which is missing on most small Chinese lathes. Old lathes tend to have worn slides, worn cross slide leadscrews and nuts and will have movement in them. The effect of all that is that it has an effect on accuracy and tool pressure. i.e. if you take a heavy cut and then a light cut using the dial or even a digital readout it will not take the intended amount off but will undercut on a heavy cut and you will have to take a spring cut (2nd cut on the same setting) to get your diameter. Your finishing cuts and trial cuts should be the same depth of cut but generally not less than 0.005? or 0 .10 mm. You need to try and have the same tool pressure on your trial finishing cut to your actual finishing cut. Trying to take .001? cut off generally will over cut. You need a fresh tip for final cut otherwise a worn tip edge will tend to push off and then to get it to cut it will then overcut. Cutting speed, tip selection, feed are all really important. As well as good quality CNC machines we also have a couple of old dunga lathes, one Chinese small and one Colchester 2000. Both I bought just to do the odd thing and ended up trying to do more. Both challenging. I often curse myself for getting them. > > Hank, the things you achieve are pretty amazing and finishing off with emery tape, well I guess you have to do what you have to do. How is that vertical lathe going? > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 10:42 PM > To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > > > Alan, I rarely can machine to the tolerance your talking about. I cheat and get very close then finish with a real good flat file then polish the part with progressively finer wet and dry sand paper. I will go right down to 2000 grit some times.. I am not sure if it is me or the lathe. > > Hank > > > > On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 8:43:07 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Hugh, > I'll have a look in the shops after easter to get a handle on whats available. > On the net there seems to be quite a range in prices from about $30- to thousands. > Always enjoy visiting your premises & seeing the Q-sub and would appreciate > any advice with this precision machining. > How is the Q-sub going? > Cheers Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 30/03/2018, at 2:03 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Alan, You are really brave to try and measure that way. Even tele gauges > > are hard unless you have a lot of practice with them but not with calipers. > > You have to use them with an outside mic to give you a fighting chance as > > you have just found out. You should be using a bore Micrometer or at least > > inside mic for bearing fits. I think you should pay a visit out to our > > workshop if you are planning on doing that sort of thing in future. So much > > is in the feel using instruments. CRC do a freeze spray for that sort of > > thing as well. As the guys say get the manufacturers recommendations. The > > bearings are not universal as they come in different clearances such as C3 > > or C4. Hugh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 9:49 AM > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > > > Thanks for the advice guys. > > The bearing diameters are 35 & 24mm. > > I went to a lot of fuss last time I did this & ended up having to use > > loctite as the last pass on the lathe took too much off. > > Emile, I will shoot for .02-.03mm & see how that goes. Have found other > > advice saying .03. But found a lot of confusing information googling. > > I was intending to heat & freeze parts prior to pressing. > > Hugh, I have been using inside callipers & measuring off these with the > > digital callipers. > > The digital callipers are on the cheap side so may upgrade them & as you > > say, purchase telescopic gauges the right size. > > Also on my radar is a 10 ton hydraulic hand operated press, as I am also > > press fitting the two end sections of the thruster in to a tubular middle > > section. I am figuring that with epoxy in the press fit, screws & an epoxy > > paint finish it should be water tight without o-rings. > > Cheers Alan > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >> On 30/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > >> > >> Alan, > >> What diameter is the bearing? > >> As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy. > >> Do you have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size? If you > >> are relying on digital calipers you are playing with fire. The answer > >> to your question is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock > >> but they don't have much push. You can use a vice as well if it is in > >> good condition. I suspect you are talking about something that is > >> possibly only 30-40mm. It is very easy to over machine but you can use > > Loctite if you want to. > >> Suggest you try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first. Easy > >> to machine it off after or push it right through. > >> Hugh > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Personal_Submersibles > >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > >> On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > >> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM > >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > >> > >> Hi, > >> I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing > >> & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my > >> bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the > >> bearing in to the press fit. > >> I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, > >> which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as > >> there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. > >> I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the > >> bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the > >> work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right > > diameter. > >> Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. > >> Alan > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 31 06:19:56 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 10:19:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit In-Reply-To: <50676B82-B8E3-4A69-A679-014B7A3B40B6@yahoo.com> References: <0fa601d3c796$08c7ccd0$1a576670$@gmail.com> <22ECF564-884A-4F77-A59D-A04B5F2CA306@yahoo.com> <0faa01d3c7c2$def44690$9cdcd3b0$@gmail.com> <11BA62B4-3A4C-458C-A308-08A7F4C8B3B5@yahoo.com> <675157484.101101.1522402902965@mail.yahoo.com> <0ff301d3c87d$a1b5cdb0$e5216910$@gmail.com> <554128937.116127.1522489789120@mail.yahoo.com> <50676B82-B8E3-4A69-A679-014B7A3B40B6@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1492292709.98337.1522491596845@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, yes, it might still work, just use the thickest grease you have. ?Its an old trick for removing pilot bearings out of car crankshafts. ?Hank On Saturday, March 31, 2018, 4:08:20 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,no I didn't know that! Sounds a good trick.My bearings aren't sealed though, as I need the compensating oilto move through them. It may still work!Alan Sent from my iPad On 31/03/2018, at 10:49 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I assume you know the grease trick to remove a bearing or bushing that is press fit inside a housing. ?Assuming it is a sealed bearing, find a scrap piece of shaft that fits the bearing hole but not tight. ?The shaft needs to slide easily in the hole, then fill the bearing centre hole with grease, then put the shaft in the hole. ?If you have to remove a bit of grease to start the shaft, thats fine, then hit the other end of the shaft with a hammer to compress the grease. ?The compressed grease will push the bering out.Hank On Friday, March 30, 2018, 9:00:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hugh,I might have to go close & follow Hank's sand paper example, & as yousuggested, do a trial press fit first.Alan Sent from my iPad On 31/03/2018, at 12:19 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv2927852762 -- filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv2927852762 filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv2927852762 filtered {}#yiv2927852762 p.yiv2927852762MsoNormal, #yiv2927852762 li.yiv2927852762MsoNormal, #yiv2927852762 div.yiv2927852762MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:New;}#yiv2927852762 a:link, #yiv2927852762 span.yiv2927852762MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2927852762 a:visited, #yiv2927852762 span.yiv2927852762MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2927852762 span.yiv2927852762EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv2927852762 .yiv2927852762MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv2927852762 filtered {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv2927852762 div.yiv2927852762WordSection1 {}#yiv2927852762 Hank, Alan, It is generally a combination of both. The quality of lathes varies hugely.? Generally people doing handyman jobs buy second hand lathes and also small Chinese lathes.? The bearing tolerances and bearing configurations in the headstocks is a big issue and on a reasonable lathe can be adjusted but it is fiddly work.? Then there is the saddle ?and cross slides.? The better lathes have good length saddles and the cross slides are good widths which is missing on most small Chinese lathes.? Old lathes tend to have worn slides, worn cross slide leadscrews and nuts and will have movement in them.? The effect of all that is that it has an effect on accuracy and tool pressure. i.e. if you take a heavy cut and then a light cut using the dial or even a digital readout it will not take the intended amount off but will undercut on a heavy cut and you will have to take a spring cut (2nd cut on the same setting) to get your diameter.? Your finishing cuts and trial cuts should be the same depth of cut but generally not less than 0.005? or 0 .10 mm.? You need to try and have the same tool pressure on your trial finishing cut to your actual finishing cut.? Trying to take .001? cut off generally will over cut.? You need a fresh tip for final cut otherwise a worn tip edge ?will tend to push off and then to get it to cut it will then overcut.? Cutting speed, tip selection, feed are all really important.? As well as good quality CNC machines we also have a couple of old dunga lathes, one Chinese small and one Colchester 2000. Both I bought just to do the odd thing and ended up trying to do more. ?Both challenging.? I often curse myself for getting them. Hank, the things you achieve are pretty amazing and finishing off with emery tape, well I guess you have to do what you have to do.? How is that vertical lathe going?? ?? ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 10:42 PM To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit ? Alan, I rarely can machine to the tolerance your talking about. ?I cheat and get very close then finish with a real good flat file then polish the part with progressively finer wet and dry sand paper. ?I will go right down to 2000 grit some times.. ?I am not sure if it is me or the lathe. Hank ? On Thursday, March 29, 2018, 8:43:07 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? Thanks Hugh, I'll have a look in the shops after easter to get a handle on whats available. On the net there seems to be quite a range in prices from about $30- to thousands. Always enjoy visiting your premises & seeing the Q-sub and would appreciate any advice with this precision machining. How is the Q-sub going? Cheers Alan Sent from my iPad > On 30/03/2018, at 2:03 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan,? You are really brave to try and measure that way.? Even tele gauges > are hard unless you have a lot of practice with them but not with calipers. > You have to use them with an outside mic to give you a fighting chance as > you have just found out.? You should be using a bore Micrometer or at least > inside mic for bearing fits.? I think you should pay a visit out to our > workshop if you are planning on doing that sort of thing in future. So much > is in the feel using instruments.? CRC do a freeze spray for that sort of > thing as well.? As the guys say get the manufacturers recommendations.? The > bearings are not universal as they come in different clearances such as C3 > or C4.? Hugh? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 9:49 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit > > Thanks for the advice guys. > The bearing diameters are 35 & 24mm. > I went to a lot of fuss last time I did this & ended up having to use > loctite as the last pass on the lathe took too much off. > Emile, I will shoot for .02-.03mm & see how that goes. Have found other > advice saying .03. But found a lot of confusing information googling. > I was intending to heat & freeze parts prior to pressing. > Hugh, I have been using inside callipers & measuring? off these with the > digital callipers. > The digital callipers are on the cheap side so may upgrade them & as you > say, purchase telescopic gauges the right size. > Also on my radar is a 10 ton hydraulic hand operated press, as I am also > press fitting the two end sections of the thruster in to a tubular middle > section. I am figuring that with epoxy in the press fit, screws & an epoxy > paint finish it should be water tight without o-rings. > Cheers Alan > > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 30/03/2018, at 8:42 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> >> Alan, >> What diameter is the bearing? >> As the guys are saying it is a real test of your machining accuracy.? >> Do you have a micrometer and telescopic gauges the right size?? If you >> are relying on digital calipers you are playing with fire.? The answer >> to your question is yes you can push the bearing in with the tailstock >> but they don't have much push.? You can use a vice as well if it is in >> good condition.? I suspect you are talking about something that is >> possibly only 30-40mm.? It is very easy to over machine but you can use > Loctite if you want to. >> Suggest you? try a bit of aluminium bar as a test piece first.? Easy >> to machine it off after or push it right through. >> Hugh >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal_Submersibles >> [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 10:33 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Press Fit >> >> Hi, >> I'm wanting to press fit a bearing in to my aluminium thruster housing >> & wondering if I could make a tool slightly less in diameter than my >> bearing, fit it in the lathes tail stock, & wind it in to force the >> bearing in to the press fit. >> I have heard figures like 500lb force being used for press fitting, >> which I won't get winding the tail stock, & probably don't require as >> there is not a lot of dynamic force on the bearing. >> I imagine there will be a lot of trial & error involved getting the >> bore to the right diameter, & this method will allow me to keep the >> work in the chuck & keep doing fine passes until I get it to the right > diameter. >> Any thoughts or experience with this thanks. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Mar 31 08:31:26 2018 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 08:31:26 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air flow vs. water flow In-Reply-To: <0DAD79F6-996D-4A3F-BB37-F078E6ED5B3D@yahoo.com> References: <526898468.56302.1522457416341@mail.yahoo.com> <0DAD79F6-996D-4A3F-BB37-F078E6ED5B3D@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I studied the math, but have had time to forget some of it. So my proposed solution is to just pose the question here, and get well informed responses in no time! Antoine and Cliff's responses agreed nicely -- thanks guys. I'm looking forward to diving in a sub that dives in 2 seconds, that will be interesting! Alec On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 10:53 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, > I sit in your camp. It is probably quicker than studying maths for > several years! > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 31/03/2018, at 1:50 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, your right, you would figure it out during a commercial watching > the football game on Sunday. I would drive to the lake, annoy a fisherman, > lie to a tree hugger and probably be late for supper. But in the end we > would both have it. > Hank > > On Friday, March 30, 2018, 6:32:59 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > To get a first order approximation, assume turbulent pressure drop in a > pipe nipple. Write two cases, one for air and one for water at same > temperature and pressure near surface and same pressure drop . This will > give you that the Vair is equal to Vwat times the square root of ratio of > water over density over air and ratio of friction factor of water over > the friction factor of air. Assume friction factors are the same for first > order approximation. Va=Vw*(density_w/densityair * fw/fa)^0.5 At the > surface this reduces to Va=29*Vw for the same pressure drop. So if took 60 > sections for water, it would take 2 seconds for air. This assumes the > limiting factor is the turbulent pressure drop through the MBT vent valve. > If the MBT flood valve was to small, then, it would start to impact how > quickly the MBT would fill with water. In the real world it is a > combination of the turbulent frictional resisence through both the MBT vent > and flood valves. For better approximation use CFD code to model the MBT > including the MBT vent and flood ports. > > What hank would have already done. Find a 55 gal oil drum from behind his > shop. Remove the 2" cap from the top and turn the drum upside down. Cut > out a hole to fit the new MBT valve. Put the drum and attached MBT valve > in the back of his truck and head to the nearest lake. Suspend a 20 lb > weight below the drum so it floats. Open the MBT and measure how long this > MBT takes to completely flood. Prorate this time based on volume of Psub > MBT compared to 55 gals. > > Cliff > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I was testing one of my new MBTs yesterday, removed from the sub, by > turning it upside down and filling it with water, then opening the mushroom > valve to let the water out. It takes 60 seconds to empty. In actual > operation it will be air instead of water coming out that valve. The > pressure will be the same, but because it will be air instead of water the > tank should empty much faster. The question is, does anyone know more or > less *how much* faster? One should be able to calculate this with > Bernoulli's formula, but this is very turbulent flow so not sure if it > would really hold. Any rules of thumb? > > > Thanks, > Alec > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: