[PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick

Sat Mar 3 06:34:33 EST 2018

 Alan,  Gamma has the original drive motor back in it, so it is a single motor and prop with the original rudder.  There is two fixed vertical thrusters, one on each side.  I have also added a positioning thruster up front opposite the arm. Hank  
    On Friday, March 2, 2018, 9:14:40 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:  

 Hank,just had a look at your post further back & see the potentiometer doesn't give forward & reverse, you use a switch for that.What is the motor configuration on your sub. Is it a horizontal thrusteron either side with fixed vertical thrusters. I am loosing track of whichsub is which!Also do you have a controller for each thruster?Alan

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On 3/03/2018, at 4:20 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Hank,I was looking for a good article on motor control I thought I had bookmarkedbut can't find it anywhere. Is the potentiometer giving you forward & reverse? If so check what resistanceit is with a multimeter, then you could replace that with a joystick that has a potentiometer of the same value.Alan 

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On 2/03/2018, at 4:19 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Alan, I have a controller in the sub working already, the potentiometer is in my hand held control panel.  The whole setup works perfect actually.  I would like to make it a bit more user friendly.  I can  live with it the way it is also if it is a big deal to find the right joystick.Hank
    On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 7:04:56 PM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:  

 Hank,life is complicated in the 21st century. The joysticks themselves are pretty simple. A 1 axis joystick is basically aleaver that turns a rotary potentiometer which is typically 10k ohm resistance. When you want forward & reverse off this you have a dead centre which maybe 4.5-5.5k Ohm. So when the stick is central it will be in that range & theelectronics says "do nothing" then from 5.5- 10k it is incrementally increasingspeed in the forward direction & from 5.4 to 0 it reverses & is increasing the speed in the reverse direction.Some joysticks will just have the 0-10k Ohm output & others have complicated electronics in the base which communicate with various protocols.On my ambient I had two 2 axis joysticks on a Playstation 2 controller & I boughta piece of electronics called a PS2 input output converter that outputted the 4 joystickaxis to PWM signals that were run through solid state relays to switch power onto the motors. Also had flyback diodes to protect the relays.On my Kelly controllers you can specify a controller that takes joystick input &you would just buy a joystick with 10k Ohm pots & you are sweet!On my current build I am using a new small brushless motor controller  calleda Vesc. Well I am trialling it at the moment. And will be inputting the joysticksignal to my plc then outputting to the Vesc. Am also arranging a meeting withan automation expert who is good with electronics & will be discussing howwe are achieving a lot of these things.If you are going this route, which I think is great, I would look at somethinglike a Kelly controller that takes a joystick input. Then you could just get a basic joystick with 10k Ohm output & wire it in. I think when I was asking forthis they called it a boat controller.You may find a piece of electronics out there that converts the pot output &regulates the voltage to your motors through relays based on this. I knowthere are lots of arduino based devices. The robot shop might be a good source.Run any controller past the group first as there are a lot smarter people onthis mail list than me! I will keep you up to date with what I am doing, but theflight controller that David posted is pretty cool & you would have a bit more room on board for one than I would.Cheers Alan

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On 1/03/2018, at 11:47 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Alan,I have been looking around a bit for a joy stick myself.  At the moment I have a simple forward reverse switch that reverses polarity.  Along with the switch for direction I have a potentiometer for speed.  I also have a left\right switch also reverse polarity.  I need a joy stick that can have the direction control with speed control all in one.  I ordered something close from China hoping I could modify it, but I think it is lost ;-(    Maybe in your searching you have come across something suitable?Hank
    On Thursday, March 1, 2018, 12:12:39 AM MST, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:  

 Tim,I had thought seriously about that, but didn't think it was intuitive enoughfor a novice for one. I want to be able to send someone down in it withvery limited instructions. I am adding a function so that I can set dive limitsfor novices on the PLC via the HMI, & with the joystick I can say "the directionyou push the stick in will be the direction it goes", & "The further from the centreyou push it, the faster it goes." If I can incorporate another small Joystick that is mounted vertically then I can say "push up to go up & down to go down"Am also toying with the idea of a large trim weight running from the front of the sub to the pilot seat, so a foot control would get in he way.Alan

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On 1/03/2018, at 3:07 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

#yiv7842235624 -- filtered {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}#yiv7842235624 filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv7842235624 p.yiv7842235624MsoNormal, #yiv7842235624 li.yiv7842235624MsoNormal, #yiv7842235624 div.yiv7842235624MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv7842235624 h3 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:13.5pt;font-weight:bold;}#yiv7842235624 a:link, #yiv7842235624 span.yiv7842235624MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7842235624 a:visited, #yiv7842235624 span.yiv7842235624MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7842235624 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv7842235624 span.yiv7842235624Heading3Char {color:#1F4D78;}#yiv7842235624 span.yiv7842235624EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7842235624 .yiv7842235624MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv7842235624 filtered {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv7842235624 div.yiv7842235624WordSection1 {}#yiv7842235624 
Why not go with the DW2000 foot controls?  This would leave your hands free to operate cameras, lights, robotic arms, sandwiches, etc.

Tim

From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:57 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick

Maybe I should be looking more seriously at a gaming flight

simulator joystick. The US navy is using $30- Xbox controllers on their

Virginia class submarines.

http://www.core77.com/posts/69013/US-Navy-Incorporating-Xbox-Controllers-on-Nuclear-Fast-Attack-Submarines

Perhaps it's a Donald Trump cost cutting initiative!

Alan

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On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Hi Alan,

I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way.  In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster. 

Best,

Alec

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Cliff,

thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas.

I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this.

Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy. 

If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the

top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's

controller with the  chinaman's hat being the vertical control )

then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by 

having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree.

At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis

input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they

have loads of programable control functions relating to the output

from the joysticks.

As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my

original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components

together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external 

structure.

Cheers Alan

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On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick.  Before configuring/specifying the joystick, you have to decide if this a “typical” submersible or  “flyer”.  Typical would be like a “K” boat in which there is a large spread between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would like sway and heave control.  A “flyer” is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway.  My boat is a “flyer” and the design intent was to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the joystick pitch control.  For my boat I have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal.   I have gone through a number of orientations of my joystick.  Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada  http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products .  They can configure just about anything you want.  Good quality and heavy duty but a bit pricey.  I ended up pulling it out when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to make it easier on the pilot getting in and out.  The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new location.  I currently use a mini three axis from CH products I ordered from digikey.  See https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd  

So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e.,  “typical” or “flyer”?  Got any drawings you want to share?

Cliff

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Thanks Ian,

I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting

of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive,

you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further

from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction.

   I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie.

you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down!

I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers

come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the

top of the main joy stick shaft. 

I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end

of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes

Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo

the controllers are just out of view)

On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling

thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control

at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control

units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds.

Alan

<image1.JPG>

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On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

I was thinking of going with something like this:

https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf

3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control.  Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options.

This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction,

can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface.

There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches,

which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction.

Cheers,

 Ian.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles 
Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM 
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick 

Well there is this product....

Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System

Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button!

Sent from my iPad

On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Thanks Sean & David,

hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth

limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices

set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming.

Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David

has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big.

David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300-

won't you! That's not bad.

Found a small video of it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw

I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf

semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2

axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work!

Cheers Alan

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On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows:

Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. 

Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane.

Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual.

Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all.

Sean

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-------- Original Message --------
On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Thanks Sean,

sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up.

I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as

I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient

works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could

however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when 

I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to 

turn the sub on it's axis. 

On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand 

free for a camera, HMI or manipulator. 

If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger

operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft.

Cheers Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm.

Sean

Sent from ProtonMail mobile

-------- Original Message --------
On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical 
thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control, 
& not on & off. 
Cheers Alan 

Sent from my iPad 

> On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: 
> 
> Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling 
> 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal. 
> I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters 
> throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional 
> speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I 
> am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen 
> buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached 
> picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example. 
> I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation. 
> It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights 
> or display control etc. 
> If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested 
> thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive! 
> Alan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad 
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