[PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS and motor controller noise

Tue Apr 29 21:39:18 EDT 2025

 Lol, just saw your comment about the Theremin.  So maybe we can give a rendition of the 1812 Overture from 100 feet??   :)  :)
Jon

    On Tuesday, April 29, 2025 at 08:31:52 PM EDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:  

 Just finished another round of experimentation. This is fun.
1) Changing channels did absolutely nothing at all. All four were equally noisy.2) Turning on squelch was the opposite, it was so effective it completely eliminated the noise. There was not even minimal white noise and I wondered if the comms box was still on. However, I do not expect it to work that well in the water. I know I've tried it on dives and it was an improvement, but not to this extent. My guess is that it's because with the props spinning in air, thruster currents are drastically lower.3) Shielding with aluminum foil was super interesting. I could hear the attenuation go up and down just as I held a sheet of foil in my hand and moved it in and out of the space between one of the controllers and the comms box. D'you guys know what a Theremin is? Wrapping the OTS box in foil certainly did help attenuate the noise, but isn't a complete solution because of small gaps remaining, for instance for the cables. I'd say the noise reduction was probably 50-75%.
Conclusion... I'll plan to both relocate the OTS box to the quietest area, and use squelch. Maybe get fancy by making an aluminum pocket into which I'll slide the SSB-2010, as a method of mounting it to the hull. 
Alec

On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 4:46 PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Alec, can you also test channel 3.  I'm literally getting no interference on Channel 3 which is 31.25khz upper side band.  Using this channel would be a good work around until an electronic fix can be achieved that protects all channels.
Jon

    On Tuesday, April 29, 2025 at 01:01:03 PM EDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:  

 I happen to have my former sub Snoopy back in the shop because her current owner has engaged me to recommission her. The job is about 99% done, and the comms already installed, so I just conducted an experiment. I have the same setup as Dave; SSB-2010 inside the cabin running on its own dry cell batteries, connected to the transducer by a cable that is potted through a penetrator without cutting. I had left that cable longer than needed, in case the owner decided he wanted the OTS unit somewhere different. 
I turned on the thrusters and started moving the OTS all around inside, and also routing the cable along different paths. Here are the conclusions:
1) As one would expect, there is much less noise when the thrusters are at either zero throttle or full throttle. All the noise is in between, when the signal is choppy.2) The noise is completely insensitive to the position of the cable. BTW the cable I'm using was the OEM cable on another comms system similar to OTS. It's a small diameter shielded single conductor, where the shield is not grounded but used as a second conductor.3) Almost all of the variation in noise comes from proximity of the OTS unit to the speed controllers. There is also a bit of noise if its placed close to the battery cables, but it's nothing compared to the noise emanating from the controllers.
So... the conclusion, at least in my case, is to place the OTS unit as far from the speed controllers and battery cables as possible. David, does that match the location of your OTS unit?
Best,Alec
On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 12:54 AM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Jon, youve got me thinking on this one. In the VAST, i have the diver unit inside the sub, a continuous non cut cable potted to the thru hull penetrator. The diver unit has its own 6 AA battery pack. With the pair of 36v 101's, and wearing the headset, i have not had any issues with bleed over noise. I am planning on adding the topside unit inside as a new comms like you. My 101's are controlled by their own minnkota pwm which are on the 36v lipo4 battery pack.  The hotel loads are on their own 12v lipo4 battery pack, which is where i plan on connecting the topside unit.  I will run a test to see if i can find any signal interferance using the hotel load battery vs its own 2-6v battery pack, and let you know what i find.

On Mon, Apr 28, 2025, 4:24 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

I've had mine to 250', but it was inside the sub. That said, the effect on the audio quality was remarkable. It was perfectly clear, but if you ever talked to your friends through a long garden hose as a kid, that was exactly how it sounded. Which was great, because it made it feel spooky and deep!
On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 4:35 PM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

I have had a SSB-2010 a bit deeper than 130 as a diver without flooding the housing, but I don't know how deep it will go without compensation.  That limit is the standard recreational diving depth limit for no-mandatory-decompression-stop diving, and it is likely that it was both designed and rated accordingly.   These units have no helium speech descramblers, so they are of limited utility for ambient pressure divers as you go deeper. The donald duck voice on top of the limited bandwidth of ultrasonic comms at all makes intelligibility a challenge.

I had the unit to ~165 fsw, and I suspect that you could push it deeper, but you would void any warranty.  I'm using PowerCom 3000D units now, and these have similar depth ratings.

Sean

-------- Original Message --------
On 2025-04-28 10:59, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles  wrote:

 SB-2010 is rated to 130 feet by OTS.  Has anyone tested one to deeper depths?

    On Monday, April 28, 2025 at 01:15:01 PM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:  

 Jon, put the whole unit outside the hull.  I have zero issues with this.  I just put fresh batteries in for each diveHank
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 28, 2025, at 10:16 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Not a lot of room to work with of course inside the cabin.  My controllers are mounted up near the top of the hull, the coax comes in from the bottom and is probably only about 18 inches laterally from the controllers.  The coax cable thru-hull is only 5/8 inch diameter (15.8 mm) so PL259's won't fit through it to allow me removal for maintenance which is why I opted for SMA.  I suppose I could try it since I won't be removing the cable regularly but it's definitely going to be a PIA change.
No I'm not sure whether the noise is electrical or acoustic in source but now that you've asked I can tell you that the controllers make an audible tone when the PWM is active, even with the OTS off.  The tone changes of course depending upon the PWM frequency I select, but it is always there.  The same tone comes out the OTS, but amplified.
Jon

    On Monday, April 28, 2025 at 11:51:58 AM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:  

Two things I would look at:

1) Relative location and shielding between the motor controller and the transducer cable.  Is additional shielding (conduit?) possible?

2) I have encountered problems in the past with noise on coax due to impedance mismatch / partial signal reflection at any connectors. In my experience, this is solved by moving from RG58 up to RG8, but you don't have that option because the transducer is a potted assembly. If you have enough cable tail available to experiment, I wonder about swapping the SMA connectors for PL259 to see if that makes a difference.

Are you certain that the noise you are hearing is being introduced electrically, and not acoustically in the ultrasonic range of the transducer?

Sean

-------- Original Message --------
On 2025-04-28 06:47, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote:

Hey folks,
My OTS STX-101 receiver is picking up some fairly significant and annoying electronic noise from my Roboteq PWM motor controllers.  I tried changing channels on the OTS hoping a different frequency might help but it didn't.  I also tried changing the controller PWM frequency between a range of 10khz and 24khz but nothing between those frequencies made a significant improvement.  The noise is enough to override the normal squelch setting but at the same time a strong communication signal through the OTS transducer is enough to override the noise.
My configuration has the transducer outside the hull and receiver inside the hull which required cutting the cable.  I potted the cable in a thru-hull and reconnected the cable inside the cabin with RG-58 SMA connectors (soldered, not crimped).
In talking with a couple other folks it seems I am not alone in this experience.  Some others have found that using local batteries instead of tying into the same batteries used by the motors has significantly reduced the noise, however in my case I am already using a separate battery isolated from the motor batteries.  Another choice that has seemed to make a difference is mounting an SB-1001 outside the hull and running the headset wires through the hull instead.
Anyone else have similar experiences with OTS?
Jon
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