concrete submarine yacht, built a concrete submarine yacht a couple of years ago, tested, dived, sucessfully - big fun - looking for opinion and partnership on similar projects (www.tolimared.com/submarine) see photos and get basics. I really would apreciate discussion of submariner community ...
Wilfried Ellmer
http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com

Concrete is cheap, maintainance free, has excellent pressure resitance, and most of all you could not realize 18 cm wall thickness in steel or aluminium [welding and forming impossible] nor in glassfiber. In concrete you can. As an example to illustrate that - take TRIESTE it had a passenger cabin in sphere shape of 2m diameter the only site in the world to make a steel sphere with several centimeter of wall thickness was krupps monster canon production site where those enormous cannons was made. They took a red hot steelblock and hammered it to a halfsphere with those enormous hydraulic hammers, then machined it down to exact size. But even for them a 2m sphere was to big to do it in a single process - so they had 2 halfspheres and a middle ring segment glueing them together with superglue - imagine the cost having krupps mayor fabrication site at work to form your steel hull - in concrete you could do a sphere of 2m with 20 cm wall thickness in your garage- as simple as i did my blimp shape submarine you see on photo here - no redhot steelblock - no hydraulic hammer - just make a form and pour it in. Well a concrete sphere might not go to 11000m as Trieste did - but it still will go VERY deep... It would be a similar task in aluminium, titanium, glass, acrylics, etc... also the whole line of composite materials is not useful when it comes to 20 cm thick walls. In fact the difficulties and cost in forming spheric curved shapes with thick walls as necessary for a submarine yacht has been a mayor inconvenient factor for building submarine yachts of a reasonable size and form. Concrete solves this elegant and dirt cheap...
http://www.concretesubmarine.com

Dear mr Ellmer,

I am sold on concrete..i have been for years. I own every book on ferro-cement ever written. I have had ideas to use ferro cement to make a sub that could have ballast capabilities as in the ring type used in military subs...i have wondered for a while a few things with your sub...and I would be very happy to hear your opinions and how you did a couple things/...
right now I am in the planning stages of building a 40 footer with a six foot diameter tub shape and bullet type bow. The sub would be about 3-4 inches thick(mostly for use on the great lakes of north america) have a 12 foot long tower/sail where both the controls and a berth is housed to save space in the actual sub for living.
How did you make your mold exactly??..did you use rebar and steel matrix with a wood mold??....if you had a pic of the sub being built it sure would help me otherwise i am not really versed on how to use or build a slipform or any form for that matter.... can you describe in detail how you built your hull??? How did you water ballast the hull??? for instance how did you use through hull fittings??..how did you get your dive plane mechanisms through the hull??? and still maintain the watertight hull uncompromised???...the shafts etc...  were the through hull fittings  built right into the mold???

I had an idea for a reverse ballasted hull...this is what i mean by reverse ballast. I thought of  making the sub so heavy using concrete ballast that to keep it from sinking at all times i must keep air in ballast tanks instead of water  to maintian neautral bouyancy. so to surface I just add more air to sink i let out some air. this stops the free surface effect of the water in the ballast tanks...hence the sub normally sinks when there is little air in the the tanks, maybe using a kingston valve or something? Then I just add more air to keep the sub up, less for down...then there is never water used as ballast...and only air is ever exhausted.  don't fish use air bladders?? and they sink unless they have air in them?   is this idea feasible..i have never heard of anyone using this approach...anyway if you have plans I would readily buy them for say an 40 ton displacement sub/...


please feel free to reply....or e-mail me westotters@yahoo.com

ferro cement in a submarine

mariner, ... I do NOT recommend ferro cement for a submarine pressure hull. A submarine pressure hull should be made out of normal concrete only this gives you a forseeable result. I can give you a lot of examples for marine pressure hulls in concrete - none in ferrocement - Please check my website on this...

make the mold for a concrete submarine
mariner, ...When you make a mold you have to make sure that you can pour in the concrete in such a way that you can see it and reach it during the process, you must compact it properly, have to avoid that the mix de-mixes - so there are limits how deep and narrow spaces in your mold should be, minimum size of spaces, minimum / max size of sand grains, make sure that air can escape from the form, keep the recommended de-form time limits, temperature limits, water add limits, plasticity limits - just read a concrete engineers handbook . Never do a thing that you would not see on a bridge, or tunnel building site - stick to the proven - do not experiment. There is no secret how to do a concrete form. Just do it within the recommended limits of proven concrete engineering. To figure out how to get all this together in a practical and economic way is good old craftsmanship a slow and constant know how build up process. What you need to do is making a couple of test hulls, get used to the material, get the know how, i formed my first concrete hull at the age of 16 i am 45 now and i have been engaged with a prototype, a test object at any time since. I would not be very optimistic about forming a 40 footer sub in blimp shape as first intent. This is basicly why i offer outfit ready concrete submarine hulls at a very economic price of 331 Euro/ton of displacement. It enables builders to cut out the cost of a 2 decade learning curve and expensive building and concept errors. Get a state of the art blimp shape barren hull, ballasted, with diesel, rudder working. Start outfitting the sub from there.
Cheers, Wil

Water ballast in a concrete submarine yacht

mariner, ... In a yacht submarine  water ballast is simply a water tank inside the submarine. Put a couple of liters in - you dive - pump a couple of liters out - you surface. - How much ? - i had 300l tank capacity for my 20 tonner prototype - i found that shifting 200l was enough in practical yachting. The submarine can go with 1l from dive to surface and re tour as hull is very little compressible - so you will NOT  have to pump a lot of water in daily use while yachting - the 200l you need to pump on surface only to get a secure flotation. You do not want your boat to dive under with hatch open when a 100 kilo man steps on it.

Cheers, Wil

Dive plane mechanism - static diving -

The question of a plane mechanism - gives me the idea that you go for dynamic diving in the same way as a military submarine. I would suggest a concept able of static diving that is more oriented on civil submarines. IF you have dynamic surfaces the hull through is simply a shaft similar to the drive shaft . O-ring, packings, all will work fine as long as you avoid vibration and movements of the shafts other than pure rotation.

Cheers Wil

MR Ellmer, Thank you very much for you help. I cannot say enough about the help of the people on this site who have inspired me and given me answers tyo my questions...Mr Ellmer, how much in U.S. dollars would the 20 ton blimp shape yacht cost for you to produce the bare hull for me?????

thnxs
Doug

Hello Doug,

A 20 tonner would be 6620 EURO mere hull building cost. Viewports and diesel engine cost NOT included. Viewports are a calculation apart as you can opt for normal not tested viewports as offered here from psubs.org which cost very little or you can go for viewports especially for manned submarine use - tested from a special provider - that may cost 20times more. (NASA effect - a screwdriver for space or submarine use costs 5000 dollar - but is basically the same you can get for 2 dollar) - same thing with the engine - you get a refurbished diesel from a construction engine - and have the same as if you would buy a fine marine diesel engine for yacht use - with a factor 20 less in cost. I hand over the hull in floating status with viewports and engine with 2 circuit cooling, rudder, and engine working, sea trials done including shallow dives on building site. So you get a boat that can go on own keel wherever you need it for outfitting the transfer to your outfitting site can be done as part of the sea trial so that final handover is your anchor site. In general a 20 tonner is still to small for ocean crossing - as hull is the less expensive part you can go for a bigger boat that is capable of accommodate a small crew for longer time periods so you can cross oceans and perform longer voyages as you would in a yacht. Minimum for such a independent submarine yacht would be some 80-100 tons. Cheers Wil

Dear Wil, I dont want to bother you too much i am sure you are very busy with your projects...I guess the only other question I have is this:  If I decide to go ahead and build my own sub(this would be because i live in Canada and it is hard to determine the logistics of getting a bare hull to Canada as well as expensive)...anyway, when you used your slip form on the prototype, did you have to create "cold joints"? whejn you uise a slip form how can you avoid these "cold joints???? in other words did you do the whole sub in a one shot pour??...from what i know of concrete, cold joints are not what one wants...however i am trying to figure out how you made the mold...i am assuming that you do not want to inform people as i know this has been asked of you before and it makes business sense to keep it proprietory information?? ... i have decided to buy the engineers handbook and read it...will it reveal how to create a tube design??..in other words will it show how to create a torpedo shaped design ..essentailly a tube with a nose cone and tapered stern?   IS the Blimp design more hydrodynamic than a tropedo shape? If so what cad program are you using for the blimp design???
   and is there no way you cna sell some plans???  just basic form plans for a 75 to 80 ton design???  Btw I have to be able to single hand my sub yacht..i am the crew and captain...

well i always appreciate it when you get back to me Wil...!!

thanks

Dear Mariner,
I see no problem in the logistics - you order a barren hull - i bring it to your home port on its own keel as part of the sea trial. No cost aociated to this. During building you get a daily status report of developments including images over internet.
I have a problem when you tell me that you are going to build a functional concrete sub from cero - with no test hull to develop your skills. I built my first test sub out of concrete when i was 16, my prototype presented on the website was hull number 5 i have developed the method ever since and i am 45 now so if i say i can get a good result it is because i have done it several times before...
The kind of question you are asking me about slip forms indicate that you have - at the moment - no idea how slip forms work...
The idea to make a double form and pour all concrete in at once is also a NEVER DO...due to the characteristics of spaces... So if somebody who is soldering a kittrige sub asks a question like "how do i solder those nasty aluminum parts and steel parts together especially when i touch the acrylics view ports with my acme soldering equipment i get a lot of smoke..." - makes sound several alarms... I am trying to move a building method forward that makes sense and last thing i want is a headline "psuber killed in a ugly rudimentary homebuilt concrete submarine".  The reason i am offering those hulls at a cost that is extremely low is because i want a series of good built hulls getting known to the public to promote the concept. There is also no need to go for ugly shapes other than perfect blimp and streamline forms - rudimentary shapes like cylinders with caps etc...are results of limitations you get when forming a hull out of sheet material. If you form out of liquid material such as concrete  the shape is only limited by your personal forming working and craftsmanship skills. Your assumption that i am hiding information is not correct - the secret is - there is no secret.  The question how you solder steel with aluminum and acrylics will not be a question any more if you get the basics - in the same way the question how you form it will no longer be a question as soon as you reach the required technology and engineering knowledge and skill level. I do not want to encourage you to go to advanced surgery before you have studied basic anatomy that is all. Watch Toronto TV tower or troll platform legs - they are not ugly straight cylinders - so just check their method - this will lead you in the right direction - you will need to form several test shapes in your garage before you even start thinking in a sub hull. If you live near water you can use them to do a series of pressure tests. Check also a test view port, a test hatch, a test hull trough, before you go for a final design also do a lot of testing with larger models on submerged static stability. If you do so you will automatically find out why i do the sub hulls the way i do it - no secret about it - just basic practic development. What you will NOT need in first place is cad program. Of course i can sell you plans. The reason i am not comfortable with selling plans is the following. People that have the required skill and knowledge level to build a concrete submarine can easily copy my basic design from the fotos and drawings i  published at (www.concretesubmarine.com) - and i have no problem with that, because someone that understand the physics behind pressure hulls and the physics of stability in a submarine and also the concept of submarine yachting and long distance submarine cruising - will come up with a final result that is very similar to mine and this will promote the concept in positive way which is in my interest. I do not seek to block competitors - i seek cooperation to move the concept forward this is why i publish it on internet. If i would publish plans with exact measures, a kind of acme guide for concrete submarine building - this would be something like a doctor selling ACME plans for appendix surgery, - for a surgeon appendix surgery is a open book very basic stuff - no question to ask, and for people that have no idea - where to cut and why - the only good advise is: don´t try it until you are ready to do it ... purchase your surgery from a guy that has no question about it. Get your concrete submarine hull from somebody who has done it before. What i am doing is the same thing a open minded doctor would do if you ask him for advice how to perform a appendix surgery in a north pole expedition if no qualified surgeon is available - read a basic anatomy - if i am sure you got it i will give you a book about basic surgery.  If you know about cut and stitch we go a step further... If you know sufficient your patient will have a chance to survive. What you need is not a title in surgery not a full sized hospital not a secret revealed what you need is sufficient knowledge to pull it off and get nobody killed in the process. In my concept anybody who has concrete mixing,  or forming questions buoyancy questions, cold joint, slip form questions, shape questions etc...still needs basic anatomy  - (handbook) it is not arrogance nor competence secret that holds me back to give you an answer that would enable you to take a shortcut - a shortcut in this case is dangerous as hell. The concrete handbook should be available free as a gift from a cement producer. Torpedo shape is a design to send a weapon out of a tube launcher, not a design for economic cruising - think more in a whale of fish shape those guys have been shaped by evolution for VERY economic submarine cruising. Do not go for military designs they are shaped around weapon systems, and military concepts and needs that do not apply in a submarine yacht.

Single hand a submarine yacht of considerable size is no problem at all. In a surface yacht you need several deck hands because wind influence requires that several processes like take  down a sail, drop the anchor, manipulate the engine, take place at the same time, if not - wind gets you crashed against a reef, a boat - whatever - and all this happens at the speed of the wind - literally. In a sub wind does not matter - all goes at speed of water current which is by far slower, very steady, very foreseeable. To anchor you just place your sub so that the stream will take it to its anchor site no stress no sudden wind interference, - anything happens slowly, foreseeable easy to manage for a single person this makes a submarine yacht a single hand yacht by excellence.

Cheers Wil

Quoted from W.Ellmer ferro cement in a submarine mariner, ... I do NOT recommend ferro cement for a submarine pressure hull. A submarine pressure hull should be made out of normal concrete only this gives you a forseeable result. I can give you a lot of examples for marine pressure hulls in concrete - none in ferrocement - Please check my website on this...

Mr Ellmer,
Pardon, but I read someplace that your design used rebar on something like 10 cm spacing.  If so, by definition, it's ferroconcrete.  Ferro (iron) + concrete.  It's not a different type of cement, just the addition of reinforcing bars of mild steel (re-bar).  Still good old Portland Cement.

Thanks, and with great interest.

Ok Wil, yes i actually understand some of the physics behind pressure hulls....but it is true I have never done a form in concrete...my way of thinking is.."how hard can it possibly be"...i have designed and built boats..that have functioned perfectly well ..although my knowledge comes from ferro-cement and thats not what you build...well all things considered...if i wanted a 35 ft foot sub yacht lets say the size of the 80 tons displacement  would be the outlay in costs for that be about 27 00 euros? ...i am not rich but have a simple dream ..to have a sub that is comfortable..not claustrophobic.  So even if I did build  from plans i guess it would take me many months or even  years...so can you quote me what would be the cost of that hull?? you say 331 per ton-?...thats a bit steap for me...I am a simple tugboat deckhand...i do not make much...i have always been very resourceful and I learn fast. sinvce I am not rich i have always learned what i needed to get what i want...
however since I would have to wait about three years to finance it by saving up, whats the difference I guess?...can I pay as i go?? if I was to start the project say in the fall....would you take installments???...let me know I want to keep my dream alive...
Btw thanks for all the explanations..i will read your e-mails and get more in depth(no pun intended) understanding of what your saying..as for logisitcs..i live in Canada...thats a long voyage to make for you....
btw I was looking for the toronto tower and how they did it and I cant find a thing on how they built the forms or even how they did it...i tried trust me...well have a great day talk soon...

26480 Euros - well thats about the cost of a car for a formidable submarine yacht - if money is a problem i suggest a kind of sharing - you could find a plastic surgeon who has more than sufficient money to buy a car in a blink, but is scared about the practical aspect of managing a boat - so he would be glad of having a person that is skilled in this field like you. You could also find a firm that would like to have a logo on it because you will attract a lot of attention with that. You could also suggest to a real estate guy a deal like - we buy that hull - i fit it out in fine leather and we sell that thing within a year at a luxury submarine price (see ussubs.com) to a eccentric billionaire - you can sell time share or skippered holiday trip plans etc... Be aware that you are going to do something that inspires people and if there is anything in what people are ready to invest in, it is in their dreams. A dream house, a dream boat, a dream marriage, etc... Just find the right people that dream like you and you have the money available.
I am aware that this is not a everyday deal so i am willing to take the necessary risk on my side. I have no problem with doing a long voyage with a submarine yacht recently built under my supervision i have the experience to do so and i trust my building skills with my life - that simple! - if you can´t say that - don´t  build a submarine.  The deal is 50% to start, 50% at hand over in your home port.
What concerns slip forms the key is that you need a form that is sufficiently adaptable to build cones with different shapes every time you move the form along the building. How much adaptability the form must have depends on geometry of your hull. A skilled concrete form builder can make such forms - no secrete about it. Similar as in glass fiber building the form can have a cost that is several times the cost of the hull you build with it - which is another argument that it makes more sense to buy a hull than to build it yourself. This is similar like fabricating a plastic bottle, the bottle, the material, all is cheap, and trivial, and easy to understand - the cost, the know how the technology the R&D is in the mold, in plastic extrusion technology - in its fabrication - not in the bottle - so if you need a plastic bottle - last thing you really need is technical know how about plastic injection mold technology, and worst waste of money you could go for is making a million investment into a plastic mold technology facility to fabricate just ONE - your own personal - plastic bottle.  Let all this over to people that have NO questions about plastic forming of any kind - just purchase a bottle you will get it cheap and fabricated well - by far better than you could do it yourself . Anybody who makes a serious study about that will come to the same conclusion - do not build the hull yourself - purchase it . If you check out the more serious projects of psubs.org you will find that even for steel subs that need no mold and are made with technology any mechanical shop is familiar with - the best option is purchase a hull from a experienced builder. Even carsten from euronaut who has a german engineering degree and certainly a high level of knowledge about welding purchased his hull probable because he is well capable to do the math ... If i understand your situation right your problem is financing - not form building technology - so the thing you have to work on is finance your project properly if you can not finance a car - a 100 ton submarine yacht at cost of less than a car - is a project that is not mounted well - and i do not want to encourage projects that are mounted dead wrong and lead to disaster. As a fellow submariner i want encourage you to follow your dream because men become what they are dreaming about - (said a old Indian man.). I feel great sympathy to you as we share the same dream.  Second as a manager in industrial projects i want to encourage you to look to the horizon not to your personal plate. Your possibility of financing do not end where your pocket as a deckhand ends. Never self mutilate your future by stopping your VISION where your current pocket ends. If finance is your weak point find people who are strong in finance but weak in practical experience with boats - they will share your VISION appreciate your practical experience with ships and come to you with money in hands ready to invest. There are millions of persons in your neighborhood for which 26.000 euros is a tip - there are thousands of those that would be inspired by a submarine yacht - find just ONE to pull it off and make it happen. You already did the first step you are part of a network of people now that can advise you in the process and are willing to do so. Getting the right advise is the most important step to succeed.
Cheers Wil

Quoted from 52 Mr Ellmer, Pardon, but I read someplace that your design used rebar on something like 10 cm spacing.  If so, by definition, it's ferroconcrete.  Ferro (iron) + concrete.  It's not a different type of cement, just the addition of reinforcing bars of mild steel (re-bar).  Still good old Portland Cement. Thanks, and with great interest.

Yep, if you take it by pure latin you are right - any construction site is doing ferro-cement as long as steel and cement is involved - just given the historic developments since mr monier used a combination of iron wire and cement for a flower-pot there has been a concrete construction oriented on buildings - the kind of stuff civil engineers do in skyscrapers tunnel dams, etc.. - and a newer development in yacht construction based on mesh wire that was named ferro-cement to distinguish it from normal concrete building. Both methods are similarly different as building a glass bottle is different from building a glass fiber yacht. When i say concrete submarine hull building is NOT ferro cement i want to say that there is no mesh wire involved - this is exactly the same building and forming process a civil engineer is familiar with from concrete columns, tunnels, bridges, dams, oilrigs, etc... so doing a submarine in ferro cement is highly experimental and not recommended therefore - while doing a submarine in re-enforced concrete is just doing concrete in the same way as concrete is used in literally millions of buildings and structures, among those submarine tunnels and floating structures ( http://www.concretesubmarine.com) all over the world. A cube of concrete is not aware if it is part of the leg of troll platform in 303m water depth or part of a submarine yacht hull dived at 303m - it is under exactly the same force and will stand it because it is able to stand it - nothing experimental about that.