Doug
Please put me on the list for a copy!
Just a thought, if these documents were converted into Acrobat
Format (pdf) they could be sent to anyone electronically.
If you don’t have the software I can do this for you if the originals are in MS
Word format or something similar or alternately scan the docs and convert them
to pdf.
Regards
Steve Pearce
-----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of sealordone@aol.com
Sent: Friday, 21 July 2006 11:12
AM
To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
They're Just "Guidelines" !
Glad to help. I
took my best stab at the most important documents, but would welcome the
contributions of others. There is a third "major" standard, Det
Norske Veritas, but my research indicates that few submersibles have been
classed under it (meaning it isn't so major after all?). ABS is the big
dog, followed by Lloyds. That is almost everybody.
I have developed 3-4 page
summaries (expanded tables of contents, really) for several of these
documents. Again, handouts with the presentation. If these would be
useful to the community as a companion piece to the white paper, I can send
them on to Jon for posting. Any takers?
-----Original Message-----
From: joeperkel@hotmail.com
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] They're Just "Guidelines" !
Doug,
Finally got the opportunity to read this entirely this evening. The information
is invaluable, particularly the list of references, as I had missed several.
The effort is much appreciated, thank you.
Joe
>From: sealordone@aol.com
>Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] They're Just "Guidelines" !
>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 23:16:31 -0400
>
>Shipmates,
>
>I have never had a submersible classed (by ABS, Lloyds or Det Norske
>Veritas) or certified (by the USCG), so I am not a "hands-on
expert" by any >means. But I did take the trouble to collect and read
all of the primarly >classing and certification documents in preparation for
my presentation on >standards to the 2004 Psubs Convention. So I am willing
to share my >understanding of what I read, for what it is worth.
>
>As to the issues of getting a concrete hull classed or certified, I doubt
>any of these conservative organizations would permit you to explore these
>uncharted waters when other technologes have proved themselves. As to
>whether you could use a "recreational submersible" for something
like >farming, which sounds to me to be either commerical or experimental, I
>would doubt that too. This is simply the impression I have after wading
>through all of these documents. This is personal opinion only.
>
>I put together a few handouts for my 2004 presentation. But since so few
>folks attend the conventions, I am sure most folks have never read it. Let
>me repeat it here. If you guys like it, we might even clean it up a little
>and put it on the website.
>
>"Safety Standards for Personal Submersibles
>
>"The community of private submarine builders has not yet reached the
level >of organizational maturity that would allow us to publish our own
standards >and best practices for the design, fabrication, construction,
testing, >operation, maintenance and decommissioning of personal
submersibles. >Because of this, we refer our members to the excellent
guidance materials >developed by the commercial submersible industry by
organizations such as >the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS), Lloyd's
Register (LR) and the United >States Coast Guard (USCG), among others.
>
>"Submersibles produced for commercial use are both classed, by a
standards >organization, and certified, by a government entity. Without
classing, >neither the submarine nor its occupants can be insured. Without
>certification, industrial submersibles are unable to operate within the
>three mile limit of this or other nationss. Because of the considerable
>expense of classing and certifying personal submersibles (which easily
>exceeds the cost of construction), it is extremely unusual for the owner of
>a personal submersible to seek either classing or certification. Most >personal
submersible owners forgo insurance, and avoid the requirement for
>certification by limiting their operations to recreational use only. It is
>therefore a recommend best practice for each builder to take the
>responsibility to read and apply, to the extent possible, the safety
>standards published by and for the commercial submersible industry.
>
>"The USCG recognizes and defines the legal category "recreational
>submersible" as those submersibles manufactured or operated primarily
for >pleasure, or leased, or rented or chartered to another for the latter's
>pleasure. These vessels are registered and regulated in an identical
>manner with motorboats, and are required to meet only those criteria
>required of all motorboats of their length (requirements increase with
>length). These requirements include such items as life jackets, fire
>extinguishers and signaling devices. The requirements for these devices
>become more demanding as boats exceed the lengths of 16, 26, 40 and finally
>65 feet. The overwhelming majority of personal submersibles qualify to be
>treated by the USCG as
>recreational submersibles".
>
>"Submersible safety standards are not self-contained, but rather refer
out >to other standards that are then included in the standard by reference.
>Lloyds rules for classing submersibles, for example, refers out to the
>standards published by the American Society for Mechanical Engineers
>(ASME), whose standards in turn refer out to the standards developed by the
>American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM). How many affiliated
>references need to be acquired and followed is left to the discretion of
>the individual submersible developer, and will probably reflect the degree
>of complexity or innovation in his or her design.
>
>"The two most important documents for a US submersible developer, as
luck >would have it, are both free of charge on the internet. The primarly
>classing document is the ABS publication entitled Rules for Building and
>Classing Underwater Vehicles, Systems and Hyperbaric Facilities (2002),
>while the primary certification document is the USCG publication entitled
>Guidance for Certification of Passenger Carrying Submersibles (1993).
>References for these and other documents are listed below.
>
>"The USCG guidelines are recommended but not required for recreational
>submersibles. The USCG does have requirements, however, that must be
>addressed. First, the submersible operator must comply with the
>regulations on boating contained in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR),
>Subchapter S- Boating Safety, Parts 173-183 (life jackets, fire
>extinguishers, etc.). When registering your submarine in your state, the
>state will notify you of all USCG requirements...you need not contact the
>USCG yourself. Second, the submersible operator must comply with any
>operating restrictions imposed by the USCG Captian of the Port (COTP). The
>COPT is essentially the USCG regional manager, and appears to exercise
>broad authority over his or her area of responsiblity. In addition to the
>USCG, other government entities (such as a state government or the National
>Park Service) may impose their own restrictions on operations within their
>areas of authority.
>
>"The general process followed by both ABS and the USCG (there is
>considerable duplication of effort between these bodies during classing and
>certification) is as follows. First, plans, calculations and data are
>submitted and approved prior to any construction activity. Next, both
>materials and fabrication processes are inspected and approved. Third,
>non-destructive testing of all systems is completed. Fourth, operational
>tests and trials are conducted. Fifth, the submersible is classed and
>certified. Finally, the submersible is inspected (surveyed) on a scheduled
>basis thereafter in order to maintain its class and certification. Both
>ABS and the USCG provide guidelines for each stage of this process. It is
>a process that all submersible builders should consider to be a best
>practice for the community.
>
>References:
>
>1. Rules for Building and Classing Underwater Vehicles, Systems and
>Hyperbaric Facilities (2002) ABS.
>2. Guidance for Certification of Passenger Carrying Submersibles (1992)
>USCG.
>3. Safety Standards for Pressure Vessels for Human Occupancy (2002)
>American Society of Mechanical Engineers.
>4. Rules and Regulations for the Construction and Classification of
>Submersibles and Underwater Systems (1989) LR
>5. Guidelines for the Design, Construction and Operation of Passenger
>Submersible Craft (2001) International Maritime Organization.
>6. Safety and Operational Guidelines for Undersea Vehicles (1974- out of
>print) Marine Technology Society.
>7. Handbook of Acrylics for Submersibles, Hyperbaric Chambers and Aquaria
>(2003) by Jerry D. Stachiw, Best Publishing Company.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: katsurencho@yahoo.com
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Sent: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 8:01 AM
>Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] They're Just "Guidelines" !
>
>
>A lot of states don't requie registration for vessels with no power, other
>than arms or legs!!! Usually they require registration for sail boat, and
>then sometimes not for under certain lengths.
> The USCG has most of their regulations on the internet. Be sure to read
>the first part, that tells where and to who the regulations apply. I would
>do a search under US Coast Guard. It's been a while. it's either uscg.gov
>or uscg.mil, probably gov.
> They have their instructions (books) that can be downloaded. The bad
>part is that there may be area that are defined or intreperted from one
>USCG area to another, but not many.
>
> Bob Duncan
>
>"Jay K. Jeffries" <bottomgun@mindspring.com>
wrote:
>George,
>This is not completely accurate. The Coast Guard has no jurisdiction over
>non-navigatable waters such as a quarry. Also, previously some States do
>not require registration for vessels under a certain length (not sure if
>this is still applicable).
>
>Jay K. Jeffries
>Andros Is., Bahamas
>
>Natura nihil fit in frustra
>— Nature does nothing in vain
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org]
On Behalf Of George >Slaterpryce
>Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:23 AM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] They're Just "Guidelines" !
>
>If it has motors, can carry passengers, and goes in the water... then the
>coast gaurd has jurisdiction over it and you need to register it (get a
>hull number and pay your taxes on it).
>
>If you want to use it for commercial purposes, you need a certifying agency
>to check it out, and certifying agencies like to be involved from the
>planning process on.
>
>George H. Slaterpryce III
>That's MR. PIG. to you!
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jon Wallace
>To: _javascript_:parent.ComposeTo('personal_submersibles@psubs.org');
>Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 11:57 AM
>Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] They're Just "Guidelines" !
>
>Brian,
>
>I suppose that would be one way of doing it. But you might try calling
>first to see if they believe they have jurisdiction or requirements for
>submersible operation. Perhaps more information would be helpful regarding
>your definition of "human occupancy". You don't need
certification from >anyone if you're just using the sub for yourself or
taking passengers for >free. If you want paying passengers, then I think
you'll need Coast Guard >certification for the vessel and a
"captain" certification from them. It's >been a long time since I
had my boat, but I believe those were the >conditions for a vessel that was
"for hire". Of course, that only applies >to waterways in which
the Coast Guard has jurisdiction. You don't need ABS >certification unless
you are looking for insurance on the vessel. In that >case, I assume the
insurance company would dictate who they required to >perform the inspection
for certification.
>
>I don't have a definitive answer for you Brian. Just recalling some of the
>issues I've heard about in the past.
>
>Jon
>
>-----Original Message-----
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