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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] diesel electric



This really depends on what sort of power levels you're talking about. In high power applications, DC stuff is both expensive and hard to come by, but it does have some advantages. In DC motor control, maximum torque is achieved by always applying the full rated voltage of the motor, but varying the duty cycle (pulse width modulation). In AC motor control, the AC power source is rectified to DC and then inverted back to AC at a controlled variable frequency to control speed. In the case of multiple motors, it is easier to synchronize two or more shafts to the same RPM in an AC system. AC components are generally smaller and cheaper than their DC counterparts.

To make a swooping generalization, I would assert that AC systems are well suited to large subs, while DC systems are better suited to small (typical psub) subs.

-Sean


Brian Cox wrote:
Sean,
           Thanks, that was exactly what I was asking.  I wasn't clear on whether or not to use an AC system since that is how many generator systems are sold.  But it sounds to me like it would be better to use a DC generator to power DC motors and to charge the batteries which are DC power.  Would there be any advantage to using AC other than availability?   For instance, are AC motors easier to control electronically as far as using a speed controller?

Brian


----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean T. Stevenson" <cast55@telus.net>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 09:25
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] diesel electric


You need to determine your power requirements, and design/assemble a system
accordingly.  It is not necessary to have your diesel engine mechanically
coupled to the prop shaft(s), although theoretically this will give a bit of an
efficiency gain since you don't need to convert mechanical to electrical power
and back again.  If you do this you need to be close to the prop shaft, and have
some sort of clutch arrangement to switch between the diesel engine and the
electric motor(s) to drive the shaft.  Running electric power only to the prop
shaft allows you to place the diesel engine anywhere you want within the vessel
(i.e. low, with mechanical and acoustic isolation).  Modern generator and
converter efficiencies are good enough that the efficiency loss from doing this
is not significant, and it gives you much more flexibility.  Next, you need to
decide whether you want AC or DC motor(s).  Generators typically output AC,
which needs to be rectified to DC to drive a DC motor controller, and to supply
battery charge circuits.  AC can directly drive an AC motor controller.  The
batteries themselves are DC, so their output can either be regulated to drive a
DC motor controller, or inverted to drive an AC motor controller.

To start, determine the required shaft power, and add the power requirement of
your system and house electrical loads.  Taking the efficiencies of all motors,
converters, etc., into account, you should be able to work back to find how much
power your engine needs to output.  You need an engine with slightly more output
than this, since the worst case scenario is that it will be providing propulsion
and house power, while simultaneously charging depleted batteries.

Next, size your batteries according to the desired dive duration, taking into
account the manufacturer's specifications on discharge extent vs. life (i.e.
discharge to 80% before recharge will make a battery last much longer than
discharging to 60% before recharge), and also the conversion efficiencies of the
required inverters, rectifiers or motor controllers.

If I understand your question correctly, a "regular diesel generator" is a
combination diesel engine and AC generator unit?  While this could be used to
drive an AC motor, or with a rectifier circuit to drive a DC motor, using a
separate engine and motor/generator set gives you greater versatility since you
can convert from electrical to mechanical power or vise versa.  Having a
separate small generator (actually engine/generator combination) dedicated to
battery charging is not necessary, but might be nice from a redundancy
perspective, since in the event of a main engine failure you could still charge
your batteries and get home on battery propulsion.

All of these components can be purchased off-the-shelf - much cheaper if you
find them on the used market.  In any case, start from your sub design, find
your power requirements, and then put together a system to suit.

-Sean


Quoting Brian Cox <OjaiValleyBeeFarm@dslextreme.com>:

Hi All,
              One thing that I am not really clear on, maybe somebody
will know, is if I'm going to put a large diesel electric power plant in
my large sub ( something like Carsten's)  can I just use a regular
diesel generator and then regulate the power to charge the batteries
with electronics or would it be better to have a specific generator for
that particular job.

Can the same generator that is used for charging the batteries also be
used to power the sub?

Can this set up be purchased of the shelf or does is need to be custom
built?

Thanks

Brian







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