Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I will build it!

[Robert Ossian <rob_neptune@yahoo.com>]

Although there is obviously some debate about
particular details, this is very good information!

As an admitted newbie to the sub building community
these types of clarifications are extremely helpful. 
Maybe we should add a section to the PSUBS site
documenting the various submersible types and a
definition of each type's distinctions/limitations?

--- Rick and Marcia <empiricus@telus.net> wrote:

> Bill, I luv ya, Baby, but, every time you post a
> reply about ambients, I get this crick in my neck
> and my hump changes sides  ;-)
> 
> I am taking exception to a few of your points to the
> new guys.  Permit me to adlib.  Fling mud as
> appropriate!!!
> 
> 
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Akins 
> 
>   The three basic types are wetsub, where you wear
> full scuba gear and the boat is fully 
>   flooded, 1 atmosphere sub, where the interior is
> completely dry and your hull atmosphere 
>   is the same as at the surface, and ambient, which
> can be partially wet, or mostly dry.
> 
>   Ambients are either semi-dry or bone dry.  Magical
> Child, my Typhoon look-alike, will be as dry as an
> Idaho tumbleweed, especially with  dessicant.
> 
>   The wetsub is used basically as a diver propulsion
> vehicle
> 
>   With a proper "windshield", lots of air and batts,
> and a dry suit you can tour for miles.
> 
>   The ambient sub has either openings or a valve to
> let the water 
>   pressure into the sub and then that water pressure
> is kept out of the sub by superior air
> pressurization of the 
>   sub's interior.
> 
>   Eez no so, Senor . . . well, ok, a semi-dry
> ambient is USUALLY open to the surrounding water,
> but, doesn't have to be.  A semi-dry (Markham boat,
> SportSub) uses its cockpit as a variable ballast
> tank to control buoyancy.  A dry-ambient is
> COMPLETELY sealed from the surrounding water.  It
> has to be or the air compensating regs WILL NOT
> WORK.  You can admit water into a VBT that is
> compensated, as well, but I suggest you keep it out
> of the cockpit proper.
> 
>   The Markham sub uses the inverted cup principle to
> keep a bubble of air in the canopy.  The SportSub
> was initially designed with an electronic sensor
> designed by Hugh Daskin of Vancouver that controlled
> the water level in the sub.  Both were/are open to
> the sea.
> 
>   Magical Child, a true dry-ambient, will be totally
> isolated from the ocean.  Not only will it serve my
> needs as a touring vehicle but it will also be fully
> automatic in its depth keeping.  I want to look
> outside and admire the view, not manage a machine
> (obviously I'll be managing depth dynamically)
> 
>   Your operating depth for an ambient sub can not
> exceed normal scuba diving depths.
> 
>   Por que?  As long as you have taken the usual
> precautions (and keep your hand away from the hard
> ballast jettison handle) a decompression dive is
> appropriate.  There would have to be an accurate way
> of maintaining stops, preferably on an anchor line,
> not moving.  A sub is just a vehicle.  Mixed gases
> on the other hand . . .
> 
>   So the first thing you need to 
>   find out is which of the three types do you want
> to build. None are easy.
> 
>   If you've ever put together a strip-built kayak or
> canoe, then a wet or ambient sub isn't much more
> complicated.  If you're not a diver, haven't used
> compasses, depth gauges, pressure gauges,
> regulators, BC's, weight belts, or dry suits, then,
> yes, putting a dry-ambient together can be
> intimidating because you just don't know what the
> heck to put into it.
> 
>   By the way Patrick, an ambient sub does not
> require any special type of framing other than for
>   it to be reasonable sturdy. [snip ] As long as it
> is strong enough to hold together and take the
> weight of whatever equipment you put on it, it
> should be strong enough.
> 
>   True enough.  My dry-ambient will be a monocoque
> construction using epoxy over ply.  Magical Child
> will be used for touring and her hull needs to be
> able to handle a rigorous seaway.  We get twelve
> foot seas out here, and the water can be very
> confused with changing wavelengths in a matter of
> seconds.
> 
>   A further note on ruggedness: a semi-dry ambient,
> if open to the sea, does not have to have a
> particularly strong cockpit.  A dry-ambient, on the
> other hand, has to have a strong cockpit because of
> lag time in the compensating regulators.  If you are
> plunging in an uncontrolled descent, you need to
> give the regs time to respond.
> 
>   But be aware that an ambient sub will only let you
> go to scuba depths 
>   and you have to be a certified diver and follow
> dive tables to avoid getting decompression sickness,
> and why 
>   bother when you could just go to those depths with
> scuba anyway? 
> 
>   Well, I never!!!  Bill, Bill, Bill - I want to
> TOUR.  I've been diving since 1974.  I'm tired of
> just seeing fish.  I want to sit on the deck and
> watch the sun go down, see the water rush over the
> canopy, cruise through canyons, skim over wrecks,
> hover off walls, and look for interesting things
> like nude beaches outside of scuba swimming range. 
> AND,  I want to do it dry and comfy - remember my
> latte?
> 
>   It has been pointed out in the past here
>   that it is almost as much work and trouble to
> build an ambient sub as it is a 1 atm sub that can
> dive much 
>   deeper. The main difference is that one has a
> pressure hull and the other does not. The propulsion
>   systems are still required by both. Ballast and
> buoyancy systems are still required by both.
> 
>   And exactly what do all those Lloyd's of London
> folks do out there - play cricket?  A one-atm boat
> is orders of magnitude more complex than a strip
> built kayak that can sink.  Magical Child will
> simply be a wooden boat that can indeed sink and
> will have a fantastic view.  Period.  A few basic
> instruments and controls.  The only pressure type
> item will be overpressure valves that will be
> installed in the cockpit and cylinder storage areas
> in case of either an LP (or HP) line failure or an
> uncontrolled ascent.  I doubt the exhaust ports on
> the regs would be able to dump fast enough.
> 
>   So there.
> 
>   Rick L
>   Vancouver
> 
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
>     From: Patrick 
>     To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org 
>     Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:12 AM
>     Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I will build it!
> 
> 
>     you're kidding me...I can make that with a trip
> to Home Despot!
>     maybe I won't have to wait till I'm older and
> wealthier to build a sub afterall!
>     are there any plans or design guidelines on the
> psub site or elsewhere for
>     this type of vessel? 
> 
>     What should it be framed with?
>     What would the safe operating depth be?
> 
>     ~suddenly very excited,
>       -patrick
> 
> 
> 
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
>       From: JMDrocks2005@aol.com 
>       To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org 
>       Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 6:10 PM
>       Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I will build it!
> 
> 
>       Hello all, I'm new to the group. I spent 6
> years in the US naval submarine service. 4 years 10
> months on board the USS Baton Rouge (SSN 689). Now
> middle age has me by the b#$%s, and I want to build
> a boat of my own. I figure I won't have the
> time/money/space for at least 5 years. I count that
> as a benefit, as I should have a pretty good plan by
> then. in the mean time, I'll learn and share what
> little I know.
>       Jim
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
CAN-SPAM Act of 2003.  Your email address appears in our database
because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
from our organization.

If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
link below or send a blank email message to:
	removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org

Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
our server receiving your request.

PSUBS.ORG
PO Box 311
Weare, NH  03281
603-529-1100
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************