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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps



The following should be filed under "insane" and not attempted without A LOT of testing etc, but for the sake of discussion,

A primary benefit of the small sub is enhanced dynamics and low inertia, which makes systems which are not viable on a large sub possibly interesting.  Think  deep flight vs an SSN....

If truly for "extreme and eminent" collision, it seems that it may be possible to add a few extra external scuba tanks and some 
regulators and a control manifold inside the hull.  These extra bottles could normally be held in reserve for backup buoyancy or as a redundant ballast blow system.  Or in an emergency move a valve on the manifold and blow A LOT of air forward of the sub.
An air jet break.   It has the added benefit that if you design it wrong you may instead get aft firing torpedoes :)

-a


-----Original message-----
From: Recon1st@aol.com
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:48:58 -0700
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps

> R/Jay I understand this problem. And my thoughts are only and extreme  
> eminent collision would this
> be deployed to avoid or lesson the impact of a collision. If ever  deployed 
> surfacing  is required.
> my prop will be shrouded and foul proofed rudder. 
>  
> The one scenario I can think of that would not be a good idea to deploy  
> would be running into a
> fish net. Sure do not need any thing else getting tied up. But for the  
> boulder that will jump up
> and smack me, I do think this is a viable solution.
>  
> Dean
>  
>  
> In a message dated 8/26/2008 11:30:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> bottomgun@mindspring.com writes:
> 
>  
> Dean, 
> You  have to be concerned with the chute fouling your propulsion/steering  
> motors.  A big sub could just shred the drogue while you could lose  propulsion 
> just when you need it most.  Remember that the Navy decided  that drogues and 
> speed brakes were a bad idea after much testing and stuck  with operating 
> within the envelope. 
> R/Jay 
>  
> Respectfully, 
> Jay  K. Jeffries 
> Andros  Is., Bahamas 
> Talk  sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.   
> - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
>  
>  
> From:  owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org  
> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of  Recon1st@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:51  AM
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: Re:  [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> 
>  
> I did  not know these were tried on military subs. I just thought it was a 
> good idea  to be able
>  
> to  stop quicker.
>  
> I do  think for my purposes just the sea anchor blown out of it's housing 
> would be  best for
>  
> my  needs. Seems like the manual brake flaps would be quite complicated and 
> slower  than
>  
> I  would like.
>  
> 
>  
> Dean
>  
> 
>  
>  
> In a  message dated 8/25/2008 7:43:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> brenthartwig@hotmail.com writes:
> 
> Dean,  
> 
> I found a couple more items. I'm having trouble finding a picture of  the 
> flaps open. I had one a while  back.
> 
> http://imageevent.com/albacore/albacorehistoricphotos;jsessionid=r9qabaad11.ti
> ger_s?n=25&z=2&w=0&x=0&c=4&m=24&p=24
> "The parachutes were attached to the after end of Albacore's fairwater
>  and successfully streamed while the ship was cruising submerged. The 
> resulting
>  deceleration curves indicated that such a system effectively aided in 
>  emergency recovery." 
>  Project "Bailout" might not have been the most successful of Albacore's
>  tests but it certainly showed some creativity was at work."
>  
>  http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
>  
> Regards,
> Brent  Hartwig
>   
> ____________________________________
>  
> From:  brenthartwig@hotmail.com
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject:  [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:03:24  -0700
> 
> Dean,
> 
> You could install some sort of stopping flaps  (speed brakes) on both sides 
> of your sub that are curved to fit the shape of  your hull. Much like a US Navy 
> test sub USS Albacore. Then operate them with  hydraulics or adapted electric 
> actuators starting with a unit like the Lenco  Trim Tab actuators.
> 
> I've been planning on having this type or braking  system on my winged 
> underwater gliding subs. With two stopping flaps on the  training edge of the wings. 
> One opening up, and one down at the same  time.
> "Built as a test bed for the U.S. Navy, the Albacore featured a 
>  tear-drop shaped hull, new diving controls, a dorsal rudder and a new 
>  high-yield steel for her pressure hull. In addition, the Navy, at one time 
>  or another, experimented with speed brakes, contra-rotating screws, a 
>  drag chute, camouflage paint and three different arrangements of stern 
>  control surfaces.
> The NSF report ignited debate within Navy circles over a variety of 
>  issues such as the merits of twin propellers vs. singles, and the sacrifice 
>  of surface stability for undersea speed. The result of the recommendations 
>  and ensuing debate was the U.S.S. Albacore.
>  
> The Dorsal rudder was reinstalled and enlarged and the boat 
>  was outfitted with speed brakes. These brakes - another concept borrowed 
>  from aviation - technology, consisted of 10 hinged panels ringing the 
>  after part of the ship. When needed, they were hydraulically opened into 
>  the waterflow, bringing the boat to a rapid stop."
> 
>  http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
>  
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Albacore_(AGSS-569)
>  
> Regards,
> Brent  Hartwig
>   
> ____________________________________
>  
> From:  Recon1st@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:55:44 -0400
> Subject: Re:  [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Tanks
> To:  personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> 
> 
> 
> Frank  I am using 12hp for my main propulsion. I gave up trying to calculate 
> speed  but I should have
>  
> plenty.  The reason for so much maneuverability is the bottom of Lake 
> Superior many  granite boulders
>  
> etc.  I will need to travel pretty fast to cover any amount of the Lake. I am 
>  thinking of a 20 to 30' above the
>  
> bottom  but at 6 knots or so when one of those big beast jumps up in front of 
> me, I  am going to need
>  
> options.  A transfer pump or sliding weight for sure would not fit my needs. 
> I may  even have an 
>  
> emergency  sea anchor deployment for quick stops. Reverting back to my drag 
> racing  days.
>  
> 
>  
> I  loved the dry dive video. I learned much watching it maneuver I have 
> greater  confidence that my
>  
> efforts  should yield the kind of performance I am looking for. Not to 
> mention it  oughta be a real
>  
> hoot  to drive hehehhe
>  
> 
>  
> Dean
>  
> 
>  
>  
> In  a message dated 8/24/2008 8:15:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> ShellyDalg@aol.com writes:
> 
>  
> Hi  Dean. I think you're chasing the right idea with front and back dive  
> planes. I had considered that but let it go because of the extra work. It  just 
> seems to me that back dive planes would be a real plus if you have  enough 
> power to make them work. Did you see the "dry dive" videos? With  the center 
> mounted dive planes the sub stays level when ascending/diving  but it would be nice 
> to be able to angle the sub just with the dive  planes. Like you say, much 
> like flying. I don't know how much speed you'd  have to get to make the dive 
> planes overcome the front/back balance, but  if it's close enough to neutral, it 
> may not take that much power.  
>  
> Twin  trim tanks front and back with a transfer pump would help if the pump 
> was  able to shift weight fast enough. Maybe a sliding drop weight would be  
> less trouble to make.  I will be able to shift the seat forward and  backward a 
> little and I'm hoping that will give me a little angle change.  Damn, I wanna 
> get this thing wet soon! Frank  D. 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> ____________________________________
>  
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> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> ____________________________________
>  
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> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> ____________________________________
>  
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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