[PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma bow dome

Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Mon Mar 2 19:28:19 EST 2015


I'm asking because it seem to me that the problem could be eliminated in the design of the viewport frame and would not incur extra cost in material or labor

Pete
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 3/2/15, Adam Lawrence via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma bow dome
 To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 Date: Monday, March 2, 2015, 5:41 PM
 
 Hi Pete,
 
 I haven't commented on here for 10 years I bet!
 
 Anyways, here is one approach, you can move the weld away
 from the port by making the port larger, basically
 integrating part of the hull into the port. I will attach a
 screen shot.
 
 Best Regards,
 
 Adam
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]
 On Behalf Of Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles
 Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 4:22 PM
 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma bow dome
 
 Would there be an advantage making viewport frames oversized
 to reduce warping?
 
 Pete
 --------------------------------------------
 On Sat, 2/28/15, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:
 
  Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma bow dome
  To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  Date: Saturday, February 28, 2015, 12:31 PM
  
  ThanksAlan
          From: James
 Frankland
  via Personal_Submersibles
  <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  
  To: Personal
  Submersibles General Discussion
  <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 
  
  Sent: Sunday,
  March 1, 2015 1:17 AM
   Subject: Re:
  [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma bow dome
   
   
  Alan,The four
  protrusions are the holes that the four mounting
 bolts  attach to.  They are inside the hull and
 attach to dogs on  the inside of the reinforcing ring.
 almost identical to a k  boat hatch dog
 setup.RegardsJames
  
  On Friday, 27 February 2015,
  Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  wrote:
  
  
  James,in your
  retaining ring photo, what are the four protrusions 
 with holes in,  on the inside of the ring for?Alan
      
     From: James Frankland
  via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
   To: Personal
  Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
   Sent: Saturday,
  February 28, 2015 4:49 AM
   Subject: Re:
  [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma bow dome
   
   
  It took me about 5 mins to do the drawing on  MS
 paint! I think you mean something  like Stachiw's book,
 page 524 fig 11.76.  Bottom  drawing. 
 Probably will work just as well.  No machining 
 required!
  
  
  On 27 February
  2015 at 15:35, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  wrote:
  Thanks, you went to some trouble making that  drawing,
 but it certainly added clarity. In my case the  outside
 wall of the acrylic is completely square and  there's
 virtually no gap at all between seat and window,  its
 literally a few thousandths. I could machine the seat
 to  take an O-ring groove, as you did with the
 retaining ring.
  However, PVHO 2-2.11.1 says "As primary seals for 
 standard window geometries shown in Figs. 2-2.1
 through  2-2.4, a soft elastomer compressed between the
 high pressure  face of the window and retainer ring
 will be acceptable. The  soft elastomeric seal may take
 the form of a flat gasket, or  a seal ring with O, U,
 or X cross section."  Given its so easy to cut out
 a  circular flat gasket, I think I'll try that first
 and  see how it goes. If there are nuisance leaks, I
 could  upgrade to an O ring by machining the
 appropriate groove,  but I'll try the lazy approach
 first. These bolt-on  window seats are nice in that
 they allow for later  modification. 
  
  Best,
  Alec
  
  
  On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 9:56 AM, James
  Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  wrote:
  Hi Alec, The epdm
  gasket was really just to relieve stress on the seat of
 the  dome.  This was with advice from the guy who
 built the  Canary island subs who came to visit
 me.  Although of  course it should provide sealing
 at higher pressure.
   Emile made the dome and mounting
  ring and suggested I would need another seal for low 
 pressure.  So, I made the low pressure seal an O
 ring  sitting in a machined groove in the retaining
 ring.
   See hastily drawn picture.
   The gap where the O ring sits is
  nowhere near as severe as it looks in the picture, which
 is  of course not to scale or
 anything.   I would love to say  it was
 carefully engineered, but im afraid I just winged it  a
 bit.  To start with the O ring groove was just a 
 chamfer.  This didn't work as I couldn't get the
 O  ring to stay in.  Then I machined it for a very
 small O  ring.  Couldn't get it in. 
 Eventually, I got a groove  and O ring combination that
 seemed to work.  There is lots  of silicone grease
 on all surfaces as well.  It doesn't  leak. 
 RegardsJames  ​  
  
  ​
  On 27 February 2015 at 14:05, Alec Smyth  via
 Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  wrote:
  Hi James,
  That's some good looking
  hardware! Just a question if I may. Do you have just
 the  gasket for making a seal, or is there an O-ring
 as  well?  My project sub  has a bow dome
 seated in an aluminum ring. Currently the  window is
 just sitting on a gasket with no O-ring, but  I'm
 wondering whether to switch to an O ring. The window 
 seat is 90 degrees square, so one possibility would be
 to  chamfer the edge of the acrylic and put an O ring
 in the  angle. That is what I did on Snoopy's hatch
 dome, it  worked well and is a solution that doesn't
 require any  changes to the seat. The other option is
 to put an O ring at  the top of the acrylic and squeeze
 it with the retaining  ring, but that would mean
 machining a chamfer into the seat,  and would require
 machinery larger than what I have here. Or  of course I
 could do nothing and see if it seals well with  just an
 EPDM gasket.
  
  Thanks,
  Alec
  On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:40 AM, James
  Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  wrote:
  ​Hi Hank.   Yes,
  agreed, my dome does sit on a gasket.  The actual edge
 of  the acrylic itself sits on a 1mm epdm gasket that
 sits onto  the aluminium ring.  That ring bolts to
 the main  reinforcing ring and has an o ring like you
 say.  Maybe  this does give it a little bit
 of  leeway. My dome is off at the moment,  so I
 will have a look at the weekend and see if I can see 
 any distortion on the reinforcing ring.  Im pretty
 sure  there is none, or none that is detectable by the
 naked  eye\straight ruler.  The alu ring seems to
 fis to it  perfectly.   I suppose the
 best  option is like you say, get it machined after
 welding.  You  wont have to worry at all
 then.  ​  On 27 February 2015 at 13:23, hank
 pronk  via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  wrote:
  
  
  James,
  
  I am just assuming it needs to be perfect ? and I can
 not  imagine that it will not warp at least a small
 amount.  I  am not experienced with how such heavy
 material will react.
  Your dome sits on a gasket witch may give you some 
 forgiveness. Maybe Emile can comment having done this 
 also.
  
  Hank--------------------------------------------
  
  On Fri, 2/27/15, James Frankland via
  Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  wrote:
  
  
  
   Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma bow dome
  
   To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion"
  <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  
   Received: Friday, February 27, 2015, 7:28 AM
  
  
  
   Do
  
   you need to go to all that trouble?  When I did
 mine,  the
  
   reinforcing ring was milled flat on the seating
 surface  and
  
   I just pre-heated it and welded it in.  It was
 so big  I
  
   don't think there was any distortion and it 
 doesn't
  
   leak. Just thinking of saving you
  
   what sounds like an expensive job.
  
   On 27 February 2015 at
  
   11:45, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  
   wrote:
  
   James,
  
  
  
   I am amazed at the equipment some of the big shops
 have.
  A
  
   vertical mill is probably the way to go.  I am
 checking  out
  
   another option also.  There are machines made
 to  machine
  
   pipe flanges that clamp on and are portable. 
 There is  a
  
   company in Calgary that specializes in this. I am
 just  not
  
   sure yet what the accuracy is yet.  It is nice
 that I  live
  
   only 3 hr from a big oil town that caters to the oil
  
   industry.  You can tell that oil is low, and the
 shops  are
  
   slower.  I ordered the ring on a Friday and it
 was  ready
  
   Monday.
  
  
  
   Hank   
 --------------------------------------------
  
  
  
   On Fri, 2/27/15, James Frankland via
  Personal_Submersibles
  
   <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  
   wrote:
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
    Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma bow
 dome
  
  
  
    To: "Personal Submersibles General
  Discussion"
  
   <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  
  
  
    Received: Friday, February 27, 2015, 4:08
 AM
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
    Hi hank,Sounds like
  
  
  
    it will be a good
  
   modification.  How are they going to
  
  
  
    machine the ring?  Some sort of
 vertical
  
  
  
    mill?RegardsJames
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
    On Friday, 27 February 2015, hank pronk
 via
  
  
  
    Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  
  
  
    wrote:
  
  
  
    Today I
  
  
  
    officially took the plunge and removed the
 forward
  
   ballast
  
  
  
    tank to install my new bow dome. 
 After much agony I
  
  
  
    decided to make the change.  I am not
 enjoying the  sub
  
  
  
    because the forward window arrangement is
 not ideal  for
  
  
  
    lakes with marginal visibility.  I
 went to the big
  
   city
  
  
  
    yesterday and picked up the reinforcing
 ring and  should
  
   have
  
  
  
    it fitted in a couple of days.  I am
 bringing in a
  
   pressure
  
  
  
    welder to weld the ring and then the sub
 is off to  the
  
   big
  
  
  
    city to machine the ring.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
    Hank
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
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