[PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification

Thu Dec 8 13:05:05 EST 2016

Thanks. It would be great to have a convention here due to the nice weather
and clear water but realistically Florida has the same and is much easier
and cheaper for most of you to get to. I still need to come to a mainland
convention and put faces with names after hearing them for the last 5 or
more years.

Rick

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 8:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> That's OK Rick,
> we will organize a Psub conference in Hawaii based around your submarine,
> when you have it perfected! :)
> Alan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 8, 2016 4:03 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification
>
> Thanks Alan and Sean for bearing with me on this and re stating it so it
> made sense. I just want to make sure I get it rite the first time if
> possible!
>
> Rick
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Rick - if all you have is the tube (i.e. no separate bladder), then if you
> fill it completely, any additional oil has no place to go unless the tube
> wall stretches. Similarly, most tubes with any rigidity at all resist
> collapse due to external pressure, so if you have an air bubble within the
> housing that shrinks and demands compensation oil, the tube won't
> necessarily deliver it unless it is able to collapse - meaning either it
> has to be flimsy, or you have to crimp or bend it in order to initiate the
> collapse, so that the collapse can propagate down the remainder of the tube
> length in order to lose volume.  Ideally, your compensation reservoir is
> filled to an intermediate volume that can either accept or deliver oil as
> demanded.  Keep in mind that as your motor heats up, the oil will heat up
> and expand, but then the housing will heat up and increase volume, drawing
> back some of that oil. A good compensation system has some ca! pacity in
> both directions. The comment about lights was that wiring can be run
> through oil filled tubes in order to pressure compensate the light
> housings, but this can suffer from the same problem - clear PVC tubing is a
> lot stronger than you might think, and you need to help it along with a
> crimp, otherwise external pressure may stress the tubing but not actually
> compress it. Personally, I am a fan of rigid plumbing to a remote non rigid
> oil reservoir (which may be pressure biased or not, depending on the
> application), but I know that doesn't work for everybody.  Bubbles aren't a
> huge deal, as long as you have enough compensation oil available to
> accommodate the volume change due to pressure. Obviously you should vent as
> much air as you can out of the system.
> Sean
>
>
> On December 7, 2016 2:38:16 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
> Alan,
>
> I am embarrassed to say that I am still not getting this concept. You
> mentioned in your email about the clear hose that people wrap around there
> Minn-Kota motors and mention about collapse pressure and also mention about
> lighting systems. Maybe we are talking about two separate things?
> My question was based on wondering about that same clear tubing that wraps
> around the motor pods to allow for when the oil gets hot from use and
> expands.
> Taking any air out of the equation, I got the impression that you could
> completely fill a motor with dielectric oil (or any liquid for that matter)
> and then take it to any depth and since you basically can't compress a
> liquid, there would be no water ingress to the motor (except for the small
> space between the two prop shaft 0 rings.) So now when you add a slight
> internal increase in pressure from the oil being heated from use, people
> use the clear tubing that wraps around the outside of the motor (which is
> also 100% filled with the same oil) as a place for the oil to go to expand
> rather that spitting out the prop shaft 0 rings. Am I correct so far?
> So my question was, the clear hose wall must be flexible enough to allow
> for expansion before placing enough pressure on the prop shaft 0 ring to
> dislodge? And then if you don't get all the air out of the motor or clear
> hose or bladder, don't you have the water pressure trying to compress that
> bubble from not only the bladder or tube but past the shaft 0 ring as well?
>
> Rick
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
> Some compensating thoughts.
> On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they
> were compensating.
> These come with various means of hose attachment.
>    With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some calculations on
> a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly
> the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's
> technicians told me they crimped t! he hose
> that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose
> for compensation.
>    The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal
> overpressure,
> but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came
> up with
> the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364).
> Cliff is using this.
> This could be used for air or oil compensation.
>    The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use
> about a teaspoon a day. Based
> on that I would have some sort of reservoir.
>    Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you
> have a bearing in a bore
> followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing
> which may be a sealed type
> or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals;
> so how do you get oil or
> ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's
> pressure limit.
> Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.o
> rg <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.o
> rg <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification
>
> Hi Antoine\Hank.
>
> Thanks guys.  drinking bladder looks good.  I was thinking of a furniture
> lift bag, which is very similar.  I use a hot water bottle for the aft
> motor.
>
> Hank, what do you use for a bladder?
>
> Thanks
> James
>
> On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.o
> rg <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
> James,
> I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap,  and it works like
> a dream.
> Hank
>
>
> On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi frank
> I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled
> compartment.  But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with
> long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge.
> The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport
> platypus drinking bladder
> Works well
> Regards
> Antoine
>
> On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> I have been talking to ! Rick about motor compensation which has got me
> thinking.
>
> I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber
> tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill.  Problem
> is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on
> the inside.
>
> So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the
> aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill.  Its better, but
> still awkward.
>
> I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself.
> Blocking off the existing side mounted pipe nipples and
> filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole.  There would be a
> rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe.  2x pictures show filling
> and operation.  Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.
>
> What does everyone think?
>
>
> 
> 
>
>
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