[PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers

Thu Apr 27 22:46:52 EDT 2017

Brian, the diagram below shows the arrangement I have for life support.  I
bring HP (2000 psi) O2 into the Air Management Oxygen Control (AMOC) unit.
The AMOC unit has a pressure reducing regulator that drops the pressure to
about 10 psig.  The O2 this passes into a O2 mass meter/controller when in
Automatic mode or through an adjustable needle valve in manual mode.  There
a manual O2 variable area, float meter to see O2 rate in SLM.  A PLC talks
to the AMOC unit to control O2 supplied into the cabin.  Also in the AMOC
box are all the life support sensors, CO2 concentration, O2 concentration,
Relative Humidity, O2 tank pressure, O2 makeup rate, Cabin temperature and
Cabin pressure.  When O2 concentration drops below 18%, PLC tells the
controller to open and deliver O2 at a rate of 4 SLM.  When the O2
concentration reaches 23% the PLC turns off the controller.  This cycle is
repeat every 30 - 60 minutes depending on the pilot.

Cliff

[image: Inline image 1]

[image: Inline image 2]

On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Cliff,   Do you reduce your incoming O2 with a regulator off the O2
> bottle?  Then come in with lower pressure into the cabin?
>
> Brian
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>
> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers
> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:36:51 -0500
>
> Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in the
> "Oxygen Hackers Companion", you will  note that the author says "Stainless
> steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..."  "CGA specifies that
> valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS. NASA has
> researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and does not reject SS
> exclusively.
>
> I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings for all
> my O2 service on my boat .  If you O2 clean the systems and use approved O2
> lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the "fuel" leg
> of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source).  If you
> are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow transfer rates
> of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk
> associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level.
>
> I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves and
> replace them with brass.  In my mind there is certain level of risk
> associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like risk
> level 97 out of 100!  Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks can get,
> I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft tubing and
> fittings than the combustion issues sited above.
>
> I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 Vancouver Psub
> convention in Phil's shop. All tubing and valves I could see where SS.
>
> Cliff
>
> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen
> Hackers Companion...
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
> -----------------
> For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to
> HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn.
> Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of
> safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating
> - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made
> of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of
> combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely
> out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel
> is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a
> cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so
> readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere
> in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is
> not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often
> rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000
> psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't
> any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it.
> It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP
> O2.
>
> .. blah, blah..
>
> When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen
> necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is
> light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar).
> Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse,
> mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi!
>
> .. blah, blah..
>
> The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal
> parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration,
> one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that
> resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway
> combustion.
> ------------------
>
> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hmmm, you guys have me worried now.  I have a regular steel penetrator for
> HP O2,  what am I missing.  If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe then
> why the special bronze?  I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not bronze.
> I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up.  Gamma just
> had a steel penetrator for HP  O2 as well.
> Hank
>
>
> On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Brian
>
> I just made it as per the plans.  It fits through a stainless insert
> welded into the hull.   I hadnt put the threads on in this pic.  Have a
> look at the drawing, you can see where they will go.  one each end for the
> valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in.
> probably makes it look longer than it is.
>
> I didn't have an issue getting the material.  I just ordered from a
> standard metal supplier in UK.
> Was quite expensive though.
>
>
>
> On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> James,   that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be
> so long?  Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze"  I have a piece of
> bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade.
>
> Brian
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
>
> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers
> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100
>
> Hi Brian
> I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside.  Pic here of the bronze through
> hull.  Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve
> fittings.  The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans.
> Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is)
> tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications.  I
> like it to be super safe.
>
> http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm
> <http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/extended_files/Page647.htm>
>
> On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> wrote:
> > Alec,   So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP  O2 coming into the
> > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a
> > bronze thru hull fitting ?  Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a
> needle
> > valve type) and then to my flow meter.
> >
> > Brian C
> >
> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers
> > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400
> >
> > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a material
> > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're
> > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Alec
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles
> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Alec,         When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have to
> > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting?
> >
> > Brian C
> >
> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers
> > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400
> >
> > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2
> > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull
> and on
> > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing,
> except
> > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one
> > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several
> times
> > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite
> particular
> > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure
> gauges
> > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I did
> my
> > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion
> > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were
> > purchased O2 clean.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Alec
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles
> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hank,
> >
> > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be
> > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any HP
> > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is
> there
> > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior
> tank,
> > 02 or air?
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Rick,
> > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has  external O2 with a
> HP
> > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve
> with
> > medical O2 regulator  mounted directly  to that penetrator.  There is no
> > internal HP O2 line.  I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2
> pressure
> > before the hull.  Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2
> when
> > I first got it.
> > Hank
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles
> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs
> for
> > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a
> response
> > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see.
> > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of
> > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from
> > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at
> stage.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles
> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Cliff,
> > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z..
> > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that
> > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit.
> > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time.
> > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll
> > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to
> > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits.
> > Cheers Alan
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles
> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
> >
> > Yes I like it,  Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get your
> DIY
> > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2
> > scrubber wrong you die!
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles
> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
> >
> > Some great thoughts thanks.
> > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making!
> > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind (
> granule
> > size)
> > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction.  There is the amount of
> coffee
> > grind
> > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber
> this
> > would
> > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed
> > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the
> > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take
> for
> > the water to flow through the grind
> > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous
> factors
> > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the
> fan
> > & the flow
> > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels & this
> is
> > dictated
> > by the size of the hull & number of passengers.
> > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day &
> during
> > the day.
> > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to
> > balance if
> > you want it perfect!
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles
> > <personal_submersibles at psubs.o rg> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Cliff,
> > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple of
> > things they would be-
> >
> > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too.
> > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher
> > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to drawing
> > air through which lowers pressure.
> > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose
> > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits.
> > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor
> performance
> > depending on scrubber design.
> >
> > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow sufficient
> > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over
> duration
> > of dive (especially in an emergency).
> >
> > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The lungs
> > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear
> > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media.
> > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather
> > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub during
> an
> > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the
> old
> > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing.
> >
> > Greg C
> > ______________________________ __
> > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.o
> > rg>
> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.o
> > rg>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay
> >
> > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work
> the
> > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions.  The
> first
> > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow
> throws
> > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for
> > fan/blower associated with the scrubber.  Engineers make a distinction on
> > equipment used to compress air.  They define a parameter known as the
> > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the
> > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure
> rather
> > than gage pressure.  If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1,
> they
> > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it
> > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a
> > blower.  What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans like
> you
> > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high
> > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through
> the
> > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting
> flowrate
> > is very low.  In this case they are not operating anywhere near their
> best
> > efficiency point (BEP).  What I found worked better were squirrel cage
> > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but
> with
> > more head.  I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers
> that
> > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24.  This
> blower
> > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to
> 0.31
> > amps.  If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time.  Back to
> the
> > goldilocks rule;  to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your
> life
> > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which
> is
> > 72 hours on the backup battery.  The current during this period is known
> as
> > the “Hotel Load” for obvious reasons.  When I tested axial PC fans, they
> > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but
> > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to overcome
> the
> > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my
> case.
> > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being
> able
> > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm
> (1/2%).
> > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the
> unit
> > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way
> much
> > current and  would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.  The Papst, model
> > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be  perfect with enough
> head
> > to circulated  the cabin air  to keep the CO2 level typically below 2000
> ppm
> > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.  This blower did not let me
> meet
> > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close.  Below is a graph of hotel
> load
> > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup
> battery
> > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat.  You can see
> from
> > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was
> exhausted.
> > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7
> amps
> > over the 69 hours.  This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5 amps
> > that I had designed around.  I need to go back and look at the
> contributors
> > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce.  I am happy with the 69 hours
> > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to
> > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery.  For
> > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM  100 Ah battery.  If you
> > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of
> > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected.
> > .
> >
> > <image.png>
> >
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles
> > <personal_submersibles at psubs.o rg> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Brian,
> >
> > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a
> computer
> > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose. I
> > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very
> little
> > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much
> better
> > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Alec
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles
> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
> >
> > Alec,
> > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart,
> used to
> > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from
> the
> > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.
> If
> > it works, straight flow fan.
> >
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> >
> > <image.png>
> >
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