[PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers

Fri Apr 28 06:48:10 EDT 2017

Hi All
I used the "Tungem" tubing because that's what I was advised by the company
I got all my 02 stuff from.  They make all sorts of things for
diving\subs\diving bells etc.  Page 42 on this catalogue.

I cant remember how much it was, but I don't think it was that expensive,
also doesn't seem as soft as brass, somewhere in the middle.

http://www.undersea.uk.com/catalogue/catalogue.pdf

On 28 April 2017 at 03:46, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Brian, the diagram below shows the arrangement I have for life support.  I
> bring HP (2000 psi) O2 into the Air Management Oxygen Control (AMOC) unit.
> The AMOC unit has a pressure reducing regulator that drops the pressure to
> about 10 psig.  The O2 this passes into a O2 mass meter/controller when in
> Automatic mode or through an adjustable needle valve in manual mode.  There
> a manual O2 variable area, float meter to see O2 rate in SLM.  A PLC talks
> to the AMOC unit to control O2 supplied into the cabin.  Also in the AMOC
> box are all the life support sensors, CO2 concentration, O2 concentration,
> Relative Humidity, O2 tank pressure, O2 makeup rate, Cabin temperature and
> Cabin pressure.  When O2 concentration drops below 18%, PLC tells the
> controller to open and deliver O2 at a rate of 4 SLM.  When the O2
> concentration reaches 23% the PLC turns off the controller.  This cycle is
> repeat every 30 - 60 minutes depending on the pilot.
>
> Cliff
>
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
> [image: Inline image 2]
>
> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>> Cliff,   Do you reduce your incoming O2 with a regulator off the O2
>> bottle?  Then come in with lower pressure into the cabin?
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>
>> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers
>> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:36:51 -0500
>>
>> Alec if you keep reading down just below the section you site in the
>> "Oxygen Hackers Companion", you will  note that the author says "Stainless
>> steels are used extensively in HP O2 systems ..."  "CGA specifies that
>> valves for O2 tanks should be make of either brass or SS. NASA has
>> researched this issue (SS for O2 service) and does not reject SS
>> exclusively.
>>
>> I use O2 clean SS 1/4" tubing and Swagelok SS valve and fittings for all
>> my O2 service on my boat .  If you O2 clean the systems and use approved O2
>> lubricants and O-rings, then you, in my mind, have removed the "fuel" leg
>> of the "Combustion Triangle(fuel, oxidizer and ignition source).  If you
>> are then careful to mitigate adiabatic compression by slow transfer rates
>> of less than 60 psi/min, then in my mind you have reduced the risk
>> associated with adiabatic heating in HP O2 to an acceptable level.
>>
>> I for one am not going to rip out all my SS O2 tubing and valves and
>> replace them with brass.  In my mind there is certain level of risk
>> associated with this psubs, O2 fires in O2 clean SS tubing is like risk
>> level 97 out of 100!  Given the rough handling O2 lines and tanks can get,
>> I would be more afraid of O2 leakage caused by the use of soft tubing and
>> fittings than the combustion issues sited above.
>>
>> I went back an looked at the pictures I took from the 2009 Vancouver Psub
>> convention in Phil's shop. All tubing and valves I could see where SS.
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> Here Hank, I'm going to re-type a couple paragraphs from the Oxygen
>> Hackers Companion...
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Alec
>>
>> -----------------
>> For metal parts, brass is definitely the metal of choice when it comes to
>> HP O2. It doesn't spark and doesn't (for all practical purposes) burn.
>> Also, being very thermally conductive, brass can add an extra measure of
>> safety by acting as a heat sink, to dampen the effects of adiabatic heating
>> - a recent study has suggested that oversized brass fittings on hoses made
>> of other materials used with HP O2 can significantly lessen the chance of
>> combustion, by soakin gup excess heat. Aluminum and titanium are definitely
>> out - they ignite easily and burn violently in the presence of HP O2. Steel
>> is not a good choice either - it burns, as anyone who has ever used a
>> cutting torch knows. But the big problem with steel is that is sparks so
>> readily, making it a prime potential source of ignition. SS falls somewhere
>> in between. While it doesn't spark or burn nearly as easily as steel, it is
>> not completely immune. The catch is, even good brass fittings are often
>> rated for only 1500-2000 psi, (100-133 bar), and rarely for more than 3000
>> psi or so (200 bar). For higher pressure systems, then, there really isn't
>> any affordable choice but stainless steel, and just about everyone uses it.
>> It's hard to get a definitive answer on how suitable SS really is for HP
>> O2.
>>
>> .. blah, blah..
>>
>> When it comes to the Oxygen Index, which measures the pressure of oxygen
>> necessary to sustain combustion once the metal has been ignited, brass is
>> light years ahead of everything else, at in excess of 10,000 psi (666 bar).
>> Stainless steel falls in the 500-1000 psi range, with 316 being the worse,
>> mild steel 100-200 psi, aluminum 25 psi - and titanium 1-2 psi!
>>
>> .. blah, blah..
>>
>> The problem is, the soft parts can act as kindling, to ignite the metal
>> parts, and the metal parts, once burning, can create a major conflagration,
>> one that is just about impossible to put out. Selecting metal parts that
>> resist combustion can create a second level of defense against runaway
>> combustion.
>> ------------------
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hmmm, you guys have me worried now.  I have a regular steel penetrator
>> for HP O2,  what am I missing.  If you can pipe HP O2 through a ss pipe
>> then why the special bronze?  I see O2 regulators that are chrome, not
>> bronze.  I just clean the heck out of the penetrator and I hook er up.
>> Gamma just had a steel penetrator for HP  O2 as well.
>> Hank
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:15 AM, James Frankland via
>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Brian
>>
>> I just made it as per the plans.  It fits through a stainless insert
>> welded into the hull.   I hadnt put the threads on in this pic.  Have a
>> look at the drawing, you can see where they will go.  one each end for the
>> valve fittings and a thread on the main body for the nut to hold it in.
>> probably makes it look longer than it is.
>>
>> I didn't have an issue getting the material.  I just ordered from a
>> standard metal supplier in UK.
>> Was quite expensive though.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 27 April 2017 at 16:51, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> James,   that seems like a very elongated fitting, why does it need to be
>> so long?  Was it hard to locate the "phosphor bronze"  I have a piece of
>> bronze lying around but I'm have no idea the grade.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
>> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
>> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers
>> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:05:29 +0100
>>
>> Hi Brian
>> I only have 1 O2 tank mounted outside.  Pic here of the bronze through
>> hull.  Kittredge design but I changed the threads to match my valve
>> fittings.  The valve is phosphor bronze as specified on the plans.
>> Even though its low pressure O2, I used tungem (whatever that is)
>> tubing inside for the O2 with is specially for O2 applications.  I
>> like it to be super safe.
>>
>> http://www.guernseysubmarine. com/extended_files/Page647.htm
>> <http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/extended_files/Page647.htm>
>>
>> On 27 April 2017 at 06:26, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles
>> <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> wrote:
>> > Alec,   So on that bronze fitting, if I was using HP  O2 coming into the
>> > cabin I would go from the O2 tank outside with SS tubing , then go to a
>> > bronze thru hull fitting ?  Then a shut off valve on the inside ( a
>> needle
>> > valve type) and then to my flow meter.
>> >
>> > Brian C
>> >
>> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
>> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers
>> > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:08:08 -0400
>> >
>> > I understand Kittredge used bronze, which is good because it's a
>> material
>> > that is very unlikely to initiate an O2 fire. However, in my case we're
>> > already dealing with low pressure at that point, so SS should be fine.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Alec
>> >
>> > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles
>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Alec,         When you transition your O2 thru the hull don't you have
>> to
>> > have a bronze fitting as a thru hull fitting?
>> >
>> > Brian C
>> >
>> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
>> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers
>> > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:25:36 -0400
>> >
>> > Yep, I did that on both Snoopy and Shackleton. On Snoopy there is one O2
>> > tank outside, which leads to a 1st stage. From there through the hull
>> and on
>> > the inside a pediatric flow regulator. Shackleton has the same thing,
>> except
>> > two of everything. Same exact setup as Snoopy except one port and one
>> > starboard, for redundancy. Good news, I have run both of them several
>> times
>> > already and they did not turn into flamethrowers. But I'm quite
>> particular
>> > about the cleaning. For instance I got a pair of little O2 pressure
>> gauges
>> > but decided not to install them because they didn't arrive bagged. I
>> did my
>> > own cleaning (twice) on the LP components per Oxygen Hackers Companion
>> > instructions. The HP side (really just a regulator and a 1st stage) were
>> > purchased O2 clean.
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Alec
>> >
>> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles
>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hank,
>> >
>> > Yeah I think your situation would be different than what I would be
>> > experiencing. I personally just don't believe that there should be any
>> HP
>> > plumbing inside a one atmosphere vessel but that's just my opinion. Is
>> there
>> > anyone else out there that is using a first stage reg on a HP exterior
>> tank,
>> > 02 or air?
>> >
>> > Rick
>> >
>> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:48 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Rick,
>> > I know this may not apply, but, Elementary 3000 has  external O2 with a
>> HP
>> > line to the hull penetrator and inside the hull there is a tower valve
>> with
>> > medical O2 regulator  mounted directly  to that penetrator.  There is no
>> > internal HP O2 line.  I am not sure why you want to reduce the O2
>> pressure
>> > before the hull.  Gamma also had the identical system for auxiliary O2
>> when
>> > I first got it.
>> > Hank
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:38 PM, Rick Patton via
>> Personal_Submersibles
>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I sent out an email regarding balance verses unbalanced 1st stage regs
>> for
>> > an 02 tank that would be on the outside of a sub but didn't get a
>> response
>> > so not sure it went so decided to attach to Alan's last email to see.
>> > Would love to hear from those who have their HP tanks on the outside of
>> > there sub and knock down the HP to LP at the tank valve to keep HP from
>> > entering the sub and weather you have an unbalanced or balanced 1at
>> stage.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Rick
>> >
>> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles
>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Cliff,
>> > forget the rumours of sheep everywhere in N.Z..
>> > We have a very sophisticated coffee culture down here! Translating that
>> > knowledge over to scrubbers will make for a safer unit.
>> > Am enjoying this thread as I need to make up a scrubber at some time.
>> > Am going with 2 scrubbers. Once I know my hull size more accurately I'll
>> > be contacting Molecular Products tech help, as they have a computer to
>> > calculate flow rate needed to keep you within your required limits.
>> > Cheers Alan
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> >
>> > On 24/04/2017, at 1:11 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles
>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Yes I like it,  Psub Baristas with one small difference, if you get
>> your DIY
>> > coffee machine wrong, you get a bad cup of Joe; if you get your DIY CO2
>> > scrubber wrong you die!
>> >
>> > Cliff
>> >
>> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles
>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Some great thoughts thanks.
>> > This all seems very much like the art of coffee making!
>> > You have the type of bean ( absorbent choice). There is the grind (
>> granule
>> > size)
>> > Moisture has an effect on coffee extraction.  There is the amount of
>> coffee
>> > grind
>> > in the shot! If you have differing volumes of absorbant in the scrubber
>> this
>> > would
>> > have an effect. There is the tamping of the grind that effects the speed
>> > water flows through the ground coffee, which is equivalent to how the
>> > absorbent is compacted. There is a set perfect time that it should take
>> for
>> > the water to flow through the grind
>> > to get the maximum desired extraction, this relates to the previous
>> factors
>> > & the pressure of the pump. With a scrubber the pump is replaced by the
>> fan
>> > & the flow
>> > rate is what is required to keep CO2 levels below required levels &
>> this is
>> > dictated
>> > by the size of the hull & number of passengers.
>> > Baristas can spend ages fine tuning their coffee machines every day &
>> during
>> > the day.
>> > Not saying we should be this fussy; but there are a lot of factors to
>> > balance if
>> > you want it perfect!
>> > Alan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> >
>> > On 24/04/2017, at 9:33 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles
>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs.o rg> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Cliff,
>> > Thanks for the excellent info. Great research. If I could add a couple
>> of
>> > things they would be-
>> >
>> > Pushing air through absorbent vs pulling air has different effects too.
>> > Pushing air through with a blower has the benefit of slightly higher
>> > pressure in the media which can yield more efficiency compared to
>> drawing
>> > air through which lowers pressure.
>> > However, too much airflow can cause the the media to dry out and lose
>> > effectiveness. Humidity may have to be controlled within limits.
>> > Pushing air through can also cause uneven distribution and poor
>> performance
>> > depending on scrubber design.
>> >
>> > So the challenges are to keep humidity within limits, air flow
>> sufficient
>> > with even distribution all without exceeding available power over
>> duration
>> > of dive (especially in an emergency).
>> >
>> > For these reasons, lung powered devices are great as a back up. The
>> lungs
>> > provide the airflow and the humidity. If the unit is made from clear
>> > acrylic, it is possible to use color changing media.
>> > One last thought- Absorbent cartridges (like micro-pore re-breather
>> > cartridges) can make it easier to change used up media in the sub
>> during an
>> > emergency than trying to empty and replace granules. Just pull out the
>> old
>> > cartridge, insert the new one and continue breathing.
>> >
>> > Greg C
>> > ______________________________ __
>> > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles
>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.o
>> > rg>
>> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.o
>> > rg>
>> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 1:17 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Co2 scrubbers on eBay
>> >
>> > To elaborate a bit on Alec's comments, a few years back I did some work
>> the
>> > scrubber for my one-man boat and came away with some conclusions.  The
>> first
>> > was that a radial design was better than an axial design for air flow
>> throws
>> > the absorbent and the second was that the goldilocks rule applies for
>> > fan/blower associated with the scrubber.  Engineers make a distinction
>> on
>> > equipment used to compress air.  They define a parameter known as the
>> > specific ratio which is defined as the discharge pressure divided by the
>> > supply pressure where each pressure is in terms of absolute pressure
>> rather
>> > than gage pressure.  If the device has a specific ratio less than 1.1,
>> they
>> > call it fan, if it has a specific ratio greater than 1.2 they call it
>> > compressor and if it has a specific ration between 1.11 and 1.2, it is a
>> > blower.  What I found from my testing on the scrubber was that fans
>> like you
>> > would typically see on PC are axial flow and these are designed for high
>> > flow rates but low head. When you try and use them to push air through
>> the
>> > CO2 absorbent, they just don't have enough head and the resulting
>> flowrate
>> > is very low.  In this case they are not operating anywhere near their
>> best
>> > efficiency point (BEP).  What I found worked better were squirrel cage
>> > blowers. These are designed for lower flow rates than PC axial fans but
>> with
>> > more head.  I am sure there are many models of squirrel blade blowers
>> that
>> > would work but the model I use is from Papst, model RL90-18/24.  This
>> blower
>> > operates off 24VDC and has a power rating of 7.5 W which translates to
>> 0.31
>> > amps.  If you look on ebay, these blowers come up all the time.  Back
>> to the
>> > goldilocks rule;  to meet ABS rules, you have to demonstrate that your
>> life
>> > support system will operate through the the emergency time period which
>> is
>> > 72 hours on the backup battery.  The current during this period is
>> known as
>> > the “Hotel Load” for obvious reasons.  When I tested axial PC fans, they
>> > were great on battery endurance because they pull a very low current but
>> > they did not work well because they did not have enough head to
>> overcome the
>> > pressure drop through the CO2 absorbent material , SodaSorb HP in my
>> case.
>> > This showed up as having erratic CO2 levels in the boat and not being
>> able
>> > to sustain concentrations less than ABS required maximum of 5000 ppm
>> (1/2%).
>> > When I tried larger axial fans like you would use for a bilge fan, the
>> unit
>> > would keep the CO2 level below the 5000 ppm limit but they pulled way
>> much
>> > current and  would not last anywhere near the 80 hours.  The Papst,
>> model
>> > RL90-18/24 squirrel cage blower turned out to be  perfect with enough
>> head
>> > to circulated  the cabin air  to keep the CO2 level typically below
>> 2000 ppm
>> > but also because they only pull 0.31 amps.  This blower did not let me
>> meet
>> > the 72 ABS endurance limit but got me close.  Below is a graph of hotel
>> load
>> > current through my backup battery and the voltage across the backup
>> battery
>> > as a function of time on a life support test in my boat.  You can see
>> from
>> > the graph at about 69 hours into the test the backup battery was
>> exhausted.
>> > Also the hotel load started at about 1.6 amps but slowly climbed to 1.7
>> amps
>> > over the 69 hours.  This hotel load was a little higher than the 1.5
>> amps
>> > that I had designed around.  I need to go back and look at the
>> contributors
>> > to this hotel load and see if I can reduce.  I am happy with the 69
>> hours
>> > because during a real emergency like be stranded on the bottom due to
>> > entanglement, I could utilize at least some of the main battery.  For
>> > reference, the backup battery consist of two AGM  100 Ah battery.  If
>> you
>> > divide the capacity by the hotel load you get the expected endurance of
>> > 100Ahr/1.65A is 61 hours so my 69 hours did better than expected.
>> > .
>> >
>> > <image.png>
>> >
>> >
>> > Cliff
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles
>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs.o rg> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Brian,
>> >
>> > If by "straight flow fan" you mean the geometry you would see on a
>> computer
>> > cooling fan for instance, they are way less efficient for this purpose.
>> I
>> > believe the reason is they move good volumes of air but develop very
>> little
>> > pressure. I've tested both kinds, and the sort I'm using now has much
>> better
>> > performance. Cliff has done similar tests and had the same results.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Alec
>> >
>> > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles
>> > <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Alec,
>> > Just ordered a tank holder that has two bungies about an inch apart,
>> used to
>> > strap tanks down on a boat. I'm thinking I can hang this scrubber from
>> the
>> > roof using the aft most reinforcing ring, holding it up in the middle.
>> If
>> > it works, straight flow fan.
>> >
>> > ______________________________ _________________
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>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les
>> >
>> >
>> > <image.png>
>> >
>> > ______________________________ _________________
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>> >
>> >
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>> > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles
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>> >
>> > ______________________________ _________________
>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
>> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>> >
>>
>> ______________________________ _________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
>> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________ _________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
>> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>> --f403045da082e939e9054e2d97ea--_______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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