[PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 50, Issue 19

Thu Aug 10 19:24:13 EDT 2017

Melbourne ? Try Minnesota.
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 8/9/17, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 50, Issue 19
 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 Date: Wednesday, August 9, 2017, 8:09 PM

 Hi
 Steve,ideally a normal air
 conditioner would be better for cooling, but you have to get
 rid of it's heat somehow.
 I am not sure how the expensive submersibles do it! Maybe
 there is a
 through hull to an external heat exchanger. They are also
 noisy, bulky & I could bewrong but I believe
 G.L. have issues with the gas they use! If the peltier was
 25% asefficient as a
 compression unit, & needed 4 x the power, then that
 might mean havinganother battery to
 drive it. The bulk & expense of the battery may even out
 the cost& size comparison
 of the two options. This would be interesting to
 research!I
 saw a couple of articles that said the Peltier was up there
 in efficiency with resistive heating. They
 are used in climate control modules in both their heating
 &cooling
 functions, & I like this option for a submersible where
 you can go from one extreme of temperature
 to another! ( like Melbourne)Cheers Alanp.s. my daughter loves
 it in Melbourne she has been there 4 years now!

 Sent
 from my iPad
 On
 10/08/2017, at 12:14 PM, Stephen Fordyce via
 Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:

 Hi Alan,Resistive heating being
 about as close as you can get to 100%, I would be sceptical
 about that. I've experimented with Peltier modules for
 gas cooling and they were quite disappointing in
 performance, although wonderfully simple in
 operation.
 Cheers,Steve
 On 10 Aug 2017 8:33 am,
 "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:
 Just did some Googling on
 the Peltier as a heater.In
 an experiment I saw it was more efficient than resistive
 heating!This
 depends to an extent on the ambient heat
 differential. I
 would imagine you would need to attach them to the hull
 & surround themwith
 an insulating material to stop the metal of the hull
 radiating backthe
 cold or heat produced, & force it to transfer it all to
 the water.Another
 bunny trail to investigate.Cheers
 Alan

 Sent from my
 iPad
 On 10/08/2017, at 9:18 AM,
 Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

 Mike,the peltier is only
 1/4 to 1/3 as efficient as a compressor system, but
 Cliff& I have very little spare room. They
 serve as heaters by reversing polarity.I am not
 sure of their efficiency as heaters compared with resistive
 coils;probably poor!  Cliff would have to cut a
 hole in his fibreglass outer & dig backthe
 syntactic foam to the pressure hull to get cooling on the
 reverse side ofthe peltier or compressor air
 conditioning unit. Could look sexy if he put
 someshark gills in it for water
 ingress.Cliff didn't have a cover on the
 dome, & that would let a lot of heat in.We
 had a wet towel on Snoopy last time at
 Islamorada.Have heard that people like Nuytco use
 a shore based air conditioner to coolthe sub down
 prior to a dive; but I don't know how long that benefit
 wouldlast being towed out that
 distance.Cheers Alan 

 Sent from my
 iPad
 On 10/08/2017, at 6:25
 AM, peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

 Reference,summer submarine cooling. A scaled down
 version of the small cooler with ice and DC fan, similar to
 the one in Sportys, aviation supplies is what a lot of
 planes use. Just an inexpensive idea. Peltier coolers
 provide very little cooling versus DC current used. Mike
 Patterson 

 Sent from my Samsung
 device

 --------
 Original message --------
 From: via
 Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> 
 Date: 8/9/17  11:46 AM 
 (GMT-05:00) 
 To: personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org 
 Subject: Personal_Submersibles
 Digest, Vol 50, Issue 19 

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 Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Islamorada Trip
 Report...
       (Cliff Redus via
 Personal_Submersibles)
    2. Re:
 Islamorada Trip Report...
       (james
 cottrell via Personal_Submersibles)

 ------------------------------
 ------------------------------ ----------

 Message: 1
 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 08:03:07 -0500
 From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles
 	<personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org>
 To: Personal Submersibles
 General Discussion
 	<personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org>
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
 Islamorada Trip Report...
 Message-ID:
 	<CAK4DN4DuhY87_6v+19RNb-
 6x2d9fKdaCW1uND2psz=ncVoQ9cg@ mail.gmail.com>
 Content-Type: text/plain;
 charset="utf-8"

 Footage from my sub on the trip is limited due
 to condensation on
 viewport.  I used Dove
 soap on the viewport interior prior to taking off
 but because of the humidity , temperature and
 duration of the dive, this
 treatment did not
 last and I did not have more soap on board.  The other
 issue is I only had two hand towels on board
 and these became soaked with
 sweat.  As
 such, they were not good for cleaning the condensation off
 after
 the two hour tow to the dive site. 
 Action items:  Have small bottle of
 Dove
 soap on board and more towels for future long duration
 dives.

 Yes, I have been
 reading up on peltier coolers.  I have quite a bit of
 battery capacity so this could work. 
 Unfortunately, mounting on hull won't
 work for me as I have syntactic foam under the
 FRP shell over the hull so I
 don't have
 a cool surface to mount on.  I do have a pair of plugged
 off
 ports on the bottom of the boat that
 would give me access to cooling water
 source
 if I installed a small pump on this circuit.  Pushing this
 water
 through a small fin-fan cooler like
 you would see on water cooled
 motorcycle
 would help with the temperature some what but not
 humidity.   At
 Islamorada, the average
 water temperature at the time of the dive was about
 87F so this would not have helped all that
 much.  A small DC AC system that
 controlled
 both temperature and humidity would be better.

 On the thruster pneumatic
 pressure compensation, I was very happy with how
 this worked.  I have all four of my thrusters
 connected to 1/4" SS tubing
 that is
 manifold into a single pressure reducing/relieving
 regulator
 (thanks Hugh)  under the cover
 just aft of the pilot. I was not sure if a
 single regulator would work or if I would need
 one for each thruster but it
 looks like one
 was adequate.  I have had two deep dives with the
 arrangement, one to 155 ft and one to 100 ft
 and have had no issues with
 water in the
 thrusters.

 Best Regards

 Cliff

 On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Alan via
 Personal_Submersibles <
 personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

 >
 Thanks Cliff,
 > I presume you shot some
 footage from your sub & this is the entr?e!
 > Nice & clear, you must have been
 pretty happy down there!
 > After you
 mentioned air conditioning, I looked into peltier elements
 &
 > air conditioning units. The
 peltier conditioners have only 25% the
 >
 efficiency
 > of a normal compression
 cycle system, but are really small & by reversing
 > the polarity can act as heaters. A few of
 those peltier elements stuck to
 > the
 hull
 > with air channelled past them
 might be the way to go! Not sure what
 >
 batteries you
 > are using, but the new
 battery technologies on the way will make energy
 > expenditure less of an issue!
 > Do you have all 4 motors exhausting
 through one regulator? Couldn't see
 >
 any
 > air coming out of the motor seals
 so the pressure isn't building up too
 > much
 > when
 exhausting.
 > Cheers Alan
 >
 >
 >
 > Sent from my iPad
 >
 > On 9/08/2017, at 8:25
 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
 > personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:
 >
 >
 Added two quick and dirty Youtube videos from 2017 Psubs
 Regatta.  The
 > first is the 100 ft dive
 5.3 miles offshore on Aug 3
 > https://www.youtube.com/watch?
 v=sHqL49V0lMw and the second is a night
 > dive in front of Doug's house  https://www.youtube.com/watch?
 v=KDBw1ZOdKaI.
 > Alec is working on a
 more comprehensive video of the Regatta.
 >
 > Regards
 >
 > Cliff
 >
 > On Mon, Aug 7, 2017
 at 4:53 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles <
 > personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:
 >
 >> Greetings PSUBS group, Douglas Suhr
 here to share my take on the 4-day
 >>
 sub operation we just completed in Islamorada, FL (July
 31st, August
 >> 1-3).
 >>
 >> Wow, what a
 whirlwind! So July 31st was really an arrival / setup day
 >> with August 1-3 being true operational
 days. Though it was unfortunate
 >>
 that Alec wasn't able to make it with Shackleton, we had
 our hands
 >> full with Cliff's
 R-300. Without Shackleton, we also had enough time
 >> to get Snoopy set up and lowered into
 the canal for some basic diving.
 >>
 >> List of Crew: Dan Lance, Steve
 McQueen, Cliff Redus, Rick Maxwell,
 >>
 River Dolfi, Mike Patterson, Doug, Sarah, Douglas Suhr.
 >>
 >> This was my
 first time meeting Dan Lance, a (retired) saturation
 diver
 >> and commercial welder. What a
 pleasure to have him join us on this
 >> operation. Dan is modest, but most
 willing to share his knowledge and
 >>
 extensive experience with a newbie like me. So pleased to
 have chatted
 >> with him in the Keys.
 During the towing of the R-300, Dan manned the
 >> tow line and helped with comms.
 >>
 >> Steve McQueen
 and River Dolfi did awesome jobs as our frog men.
 >> Filming, attaching / detaching davit
 and tow lines, etc. they were
 >> both
 in and out of the water quite a bit (especially Steve). I
 think
 >> River took a little jelly
 sting for the team. What troopers!
 >>
 >> Cliff and his
 assistant Rick are such a joy be around. Rick is one of
 >> the friendliest people you'll ever
 meet (and even brought a gift for
 >>
 the group: a watermelon, straight from Texas!). Cliff is
 always
 >> willing to share his
 expertise (and sub, too) with anyone who'd like
 >> to learn more. I know that between Dan
 Lance and Cliff, I learned more
 >>
 than I can remember last week.
 >>
 >> Mike Patterson, mom, dad and myself
 were all just providing whatever
 >>
 kind of "troop support" we could to Cliff and the
 R-300.
 >>
 >>
 River, Steve and Myself got in some dive time on Snoopy in
 the canal
 >> (which was great), but I
 think the biggest accomplishment was getting
 >> the R-300 out a ways into the
 ocean.
 >>
 >> Our
 Boston Whaler (a 25' boat with a single 250hp Yamaha)
 was able to
 >> tow the R-300 out about
 5 miles into the ocean (at about 4mph). We
 >> were in radio communication with Cliff
 most of the time, though we did
 >>
 suffer a few intermittent losses in comms. When we got to a
 spot about
 >> 100 feet deep, we
 started to slow down a bit and at that point the tow
 >> line hook (an admittedly cheap thing)
 let loose(!) so we decided that
 >> we
 had reached our dive location. We switched from marine radio
 to OTS
 >> and Cliff started down.
 Visibility was supurb! As Cliff neared the
 >> bottom at 100 ? 110 feet, he was still
 quite visible from the Whaler!
 >> His
 18 foot long R-300 looked to be about 3 inches long, but wow
 did
 >> it ever stand out from the rest
 of the sandy bottom. Cliff spent about
 >> an hour "flying" his sub,
 surfacing, diving and maneuvering about,
 >> testing systems and observing the
 ocean around him. By the time Cliff
 >>
 surfaced and we towed back to port Antigua, elapsed time
 stood at 4.5
 >> / 5 hours (estimate).
 Cliff said that he stayed cool by the water
 >> flowing over the sub's dome hatch
 while in tow. Upon returning I think
 >> we were all ready to take a break, but
 everyone felt great
 >> accomplishment
 with the mission.
 >>
 >> A couple of lessons I took away from
 the tow out: We need better tow
 >>
 equipment (better line, hardware and maybe a quick release).
 Our boat
 >> REALLY needs a GPS (still
 don't have one). Towing into waves isn't so
 >> much a problem, but when towing with
 the waves, our tow line needs to
 >> be
 measured so as to sustain the proper distance between tow
 vessel
 >> and sub (otherwise the sub
 and boat are constantly slacking and then
 >> jerking, stressing the tow line and
 making it difficult for boat and
 >>
 sub to track straight).
 >>
 >> The devotion of our crew was amazing,
 even in the heat and the waves
 >>
 everyone did their jobs. Managing even a small sub operation
 like this
 >> is more work / effort
 than meets the eye, that's for sure. At dinner,
 >> one of the main discussions revolved
 around a support vessel that can
 >>
 carry a sub or two on board, eliminating the slow, time
 consuming tow
 >> out to an ocean dive
 site. Dan Lance shared details on his support
 >> vessel project, which is no doubt
 going to be a dream in terms of
 >>
 logistics. Hopefully when said vessel is ready to sail, Dan
 will lend
 >> its services to host a
 diving event! ~ Douglas S.
 >>
 >> ______________________________
 _________________
 >>
 Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 >>
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.
 org
 >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/
 listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
 >>
 >
 > ______________________________
 _________________
 > Personal_Submersibles
 mailing list
 > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.
 org
 > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/
 listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
 >
 >
 >
 ______________________________ _________________
 > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
 > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.
 org
 > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/
 listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
 >
 >
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 ------------------------------

 Message: 2
 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:46:22 +0000 (UTC)
 From: james cottrell via
 Personal_Submersibles
 	<personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org>
 To: Personal Submersibles
 General Discussion
 	<personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org>
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
 Islamorada Trip Report...
 Message-ID: <1907666847.421009.
 1502293582178 at mail.yahoo.com>
 Content-Type: text/plain;
 charset="utf-8"

 Hi Cliff,
 Congrats on your
 dives. Sub really looks great in those videos.
 With regards to an AC solution, one low tech
 method would be to blow air across ice in a small cooler.
 Water ice can be super cooled with Dry Ice the night before.
 Dry ice is about - 100 F and water ice cooled to this
 temperature should stay cold for quite some time.
 Greg C      From: Cliff Redus via
 Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org>
  To: Personal Submersibles
 General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 9,
 2017 9:05 AM
  Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
 Islamorada Trip Report...

 Footage from my sub on the trip is limited due
 to condensation on viewport.? I used Dove soap on the
 viewport interior?prior to taking off but because of the
 humidity , temperature and duration of the dive, this
 treatment did not last and I did not have more soap on
 board.? The other issue is I only had two hand towels on
 board and these became soaked with sweat.? As such, they
 were not good for cleaning the condensation off?after the
 two hour tow to the dive site.? Action items:? Have small
 bottle of Dove soap on board and more towels for future long
 duration dives.? 
 Yes, I have been reading
 up on peltier coolers.? I have quite a bit of battery
 capacity so this could work.? Unfortunately, mounting on
 hull won't work for me as I have syntactic foam under
 the FRP shell over the hull so I don't have a cool
 surface to mount on.? I do have a pair of plugged off ports
 on the bottom of the boat that would give me access to
 cooling water source if I installed a small pump on this
 circuit.? Pushing this water through a small fin-fan cooler
 like you would see on?water cooled motorcycle would help
 with the temperature some what but not?humidity.? ?At
 Islamorada, the average water temperature at the time of the
 dive was about 87F so this would not have helped all that
 much.? A small DC AC system that controlled both temperature
 and humidity would be better.
 On the
 thruster pneumatic pressure compensation, I was very happy
 with how this worked.? I have all four of my thrusters
 connected to 1/4" SS tubing that is manifold into a
 single pressure reducing/relieving regulator (thanks Hugh)
 ?under the cover just aft of the pilot.?I was not sure if a
 single regulator would work or if I would need one for each
 thruster but it looks like one was adequate.? I have had two
 deep dives with the arrangement, one to 155 ft and one to
 100 ft and have had no issues with water in the
 thrusters.
 Best Regards
 Cliff
 On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at
 10:50 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

 Thanks
 Cliff,I presume you shot some footage from your sub &
 this is the entr?e!Nice & clear, you must have been
 pretty happy down there!After you mentioned air
 conditioning, I looked into peltier elements &air
 conditioning units. The peltier conditioners have only 25%
 the efficiency?of a normal compression cycle system, but are
 really small & by reversingthe polarity can act as
 heaters. A few of those peltier elements stuck to the
 hull?with air channelled past them might be the way to go!
 Not sure what batteries youare using, but the new battery
 technologies on the way will make energyexpenditure less of
 an issue!Do you have all 4 motors exhausting through one
 regulator? Couldn't see any?air coming out of the motor
 seals so the pressure isn't building up too muchwhen
 exhausting.Cheers Alan

 Sent from my iPad
 On 9/08/2017,
 at 8:25 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles
 <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:

 Added two
 quick and dirty Youtube videos from 2017 Psubs Regatta.? The
 first is the 100 ft dive 5.3 miles offshore on Aug 3??https://www.youtube.com/
 watch?v=sHqL49V0lMw?and the second is a night dive in front
 of Doug's house??https://www.youtube.
 com/watch?v=KDBw1ZOdKaI.? Alec is working on a more
 comprehensive video of the Regatta.
 Regards
 Cliff
 On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Douglas Suhr
 via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

 Greetings
 PSUBS group, Douglas Suhr here to share my take on the
 4-day
 sub operation we just completed in
 Islamorada, FL (July 31st, August
 1-3).

 Wow, what a whirlwind! So July
 31st was really an arrival / setup day
 with
 August 1-3 being true operational days. Though it was
 unfortunate
 that Alec wasn't able to
 make it with Shackleton, we had our hands
 full with Cliff's R-300. Without
 Shackleton, we also had enough time
 to get
 Snoopy set up and lowered into the canal for some basic
 diving.

 List of Crew: Dan
 Lance, Steve McQueen, Cliff Redus, Rick Maxwell,
 River Dolfi, Mike Patterson, Doug, Sarah,
 Douglas Suhr.

 This was my
 first time meeting Dan Lance, a (retired) saturation
 diver
 and commercial welder. What a pleasure
 to have him join us on this
 operation. Dan
 is modest, but most willing to share his knowledge and
 extensive experience with a newbie like me. So
 pleased to have chatted
 with him in the
 Keys. During the towing of the R-300, Dan manned the
 tow line and helped with comms.

 Steve McQueen and River Dolfi
 did awesome jobs as our frog men.
 Filming,
 attaching / detaching davit and tow lines, etc. they were
 both in and out of the water quite a bit
 (especially Steve). I think
 River took a
 little jelly sting for the team. What troopers!

 Cliff and his assistant Rick
 are such a joy be around. Rick is one of
 the
 friendliest people you'll ever meet (and even brought a
 gift for
 the group: a watermelon, straight
 from Texas!). Cliff is always
 willing to
 share his expertise (and sub, too) with anyone who'd
 like
 to learn more. I know that between Dan
 Lance and Cliff, I learned more
 than I can
 remember last week.

 Mike
 Patterson, mom, dad and myself were all just providing
 whatever
 kind of "troop support"
 we could to Cliff and the R-300.

 River, Steve and Myself got in some dive time
 on Snoopy in the canal
 (which was great),
 but I think the biggest accomplishment was getting
 the R-300 out a ways into the ocean.

 Our Boston Whaler (a 25'
 boat with a single 250hp Yamaha) was able to
 tow the R-300 out about 5 miles into the ocean
 (at about 4mph). We
 were in radio
 communication with Cliff most of the time, though we did
 suffer a few intermittent losses in comms. When
 we got to a spot about
 100 feet deep, we
 started to slow down a bit and at that point the tow
 line hook (an admittedly cheap thing) let
 loose(!) so we decided that
 we had reached
 our dive location. We switched from marine radio to OTS
 and Cliff started down. Visibility was supurb!
 As Cliff neared the
 bottom at 100 ? 110
 feet, he was still quite visible from the Whaler!
 His 18 foot long R-300 looked to be about 3
 inches long, but wow did
 it ever stand out
 from the rest of the sandy bottom. Cliff spent about
 an hour "flying" his sub, surfacing,
 diving and maneuvering about,
 testing
 systems and observing the ocean around him. By the time
 Cliff
 surfaced and we towed back to port
 Antigua, elapsed time stood at 4.5
 / 5 hours
 (estimate). Cliff said that he stayed cool by the water
 flowing over the sub's dome hatch while in
 tow. Upon returning I think
 we were all
 ready to take a break, but everyone felt great
 accomplishment with the mission.

 A couple of lessons I took
 away from the tow out: We need better tow
 equipment (better line, hardware and maybe a
 quick release). Our boat
 REALLY needs a GPS
 (still don't have one). Towing into waves isn't
 so
 much a problem, but when towing with the
 waves, our tow line needs to
 be measured so
 as to sustain the proper distance between tow vessel
 and sub (otherwise the sub and boat are
 constantly slacking and then
 jerking,
 stressing the tow line and making it difficult for boat
 and
 sub to track straight).

 The devotion of our crew was
 amazing, even in the heat and the waves
 everyone did their jobs. Managing even a small
 sub operation like this
 is more work /
 effort than meets the eye, that's for sure. At
 dinner,
 one of the main discussions revolved
 around a support vessel that can
 carry a sub
 or two on board, eliminating the slow, time consuming tow
 out to an ocean dive site. Dan Lance shared
 details on his support
 vessel project, which
 is no doubt going to be a dream in terms of
 logistics. Hopefully when said vessel is ready
 to sail, Dan will lend
 its services to host
 a diving event! ~ Douglas S.

 ______________________________
 _________________
 Personal_Submersibles
 mailing list
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or
 g
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l
 istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les

 ______________________________
 _________________
 Personal_Submersibles
 mailing list
 Personal_Submersibles at psubs.
 org
 http://www.psubs.org/mailman/
 listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles

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 Digest, Vol 50, Issue 19
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