[PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 50, Issue 19
Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Thu Aug 10 19:39:28 EDT 2017
Pete!
Are you in Minnesota?
Me too.
Minnetrista and Duluth.
> On Aug 10, 2017, at 6:24 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Melbourne ? Try Minnesota.
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 8/9/17, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 50, Issue 19
> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Date: Wednesday, August 9, 2017, 8:09 PM
>
> Hi
> Steve,ideally a normal air
> conditioner would be better for cooling, but you have to get
> rid of it's heat somehow.
> I am not sure how the expensive submersibles do it! Maybe
> there is a
> through hull to an external heat exchanger. They are also
> noisy, bulky & I could bewrong but I believe
> G.L. have issues with the gas they use! If the peltier was
> 25% asefficient as a
> compression unit, & needed 4 x the power, then that
> might mean havinganother battery to
> drive it. The bulk & expense of the battery may even out
> the cost& size comparison
> of the two options. This would be interesting to
> research!I
> saw a couple of articles that said the Peltier was up there
> in efficiency with resistive heating. They
> are used in climate control modules in both their heating
> &cooling
> functions, & I like this option for a submersible where
> you can go from one extreme of temperature
> to another! ( like Melbourne)Cheers Alanp.s. my daughter loves
> it in Melbourne she has been there 4 years now!
>
>
>
> Sent
> from my iPad
> On
> 10/08/2017, at 12:14 PM, Stephen Fordyce via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Alan,Resistive heating being
> about as close as you can get to 100%, I would be sceptical
> about that. I've experimented with Peltier modules for
> gas cooling and they were quite disappointing in
> performance, although wonderfully simple in
> operation.
> Cheers,Steve
> On 10 Aug 2017 8:33 am,
> "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
> Just did some Googling on
> the Peltier as a heater.In
> an experiment I saw it was more efficient than resistive
> heating!This
> depends to an extent on the ambient heat
> differential. I
> would imagine you would need to attach them to the hull
> & surround themwith
> an insulating material to stop the metal of the hull
> radiating backthe
> cold or heat produced, & force it to transfer it all to
> the water.Another
> bunny trail to investigate.Cheers
> Alan
>
> Sent from my
> iPad
> On 10/08/2017, at 9:18 AM,
> Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
> Mike,the peltier is only
> 1/4 to 1/3 as efficient as a compressor system, but
> Cliff& I have very little spare room. They
> serve as heaters by reversing polarity.I am not
> sure of their efficiency as heaters compared with resistive
> coils;probably poor! Cliff would have to cut a
> hole in his fibreglass outer & dig backthe
> syntactic foam to the pressure hull to get cooling on the
> reverse side ofthe peltier or compressor air
> conditioning unit. Could look sexy if he put
> someshark gills in it for water
> ingress.Cliff didn't have a cover on the
> dome, & that would let a lot of heat in.We
> had a wet towel on Snoopy last time at
> Islamorada.Have heard that people like Nuytco use
> a shore based air conditioner to coolthe sub down
> prior to a dive; but I don't know how long that benefit
> wouldlast being towed out that
> distance.Cheers Alan
>
> Sent from my
> iPad
> On 10/08/2017, at 6:25
> AM, peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Reference,summer submarine cooling. A scaled down
> version of the small cooler with ice and DC fan, similar to
> the one in Sportys, aviation supplies is what a lot of
> planes use. Just an inexpensive idea. Peltier coolers
> provide very little cooling versus DC current used. Mike
> Patterson
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung
> device
>
> --------
> Original message --------
> From: via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Date: 8/9/17 11:46 AM
> (GMT-05:00)
> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org
> Subject: Personal_Submersibles
> Digest, Vol 50, Issue 19
>
> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Islamorada Trip
> Report...
> (Cliff Redus via
> Personal_Submersibles)
> 2. Re:
> Islamorada Trip Report...
> (james
> cottrell via Personal_Submersibles)
>
>
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------ ----------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 08:03:07 -0500
> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal Submersibles
> General Discussion
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
> Islamorada Trip Report...
> Message-ID:
> <CAK4DN4DuhY87_6v+19RNb-
> 6x2d9fKdaCW1uND2psz=ncVoQ9cg@ mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="utf-8"
>
> Footage from my sub on the trip is limited due
> to condensation on
> viewport. I used Dove
> soap on the viewport interior prior to taking off
> but because of the humidity , temperature and
> duration of the dive, this
> treatment did not
> last and I did not have more soap on board. The other
> issue is I only had two hand towels on board
> and these became soaked with
> sweat. As
> such, they were not good for cleaning the condensation off
> after
> the two hour tow to the dive site.
> Action items: Have small bottle of
> Dove
> soap on board and more towels for future long duration
> dives.
>
> Yes, I have been
> reading up on peltier coolers. I have quite a bit of
> battery capacity so this could work.
> Unfortunately, mounting on hull won't
> work for me as I have syntactic foam under the
> FRP shell over the hull so I
> don't have
> a cool surface to mount on. I do have a pair of plugged
> off
> ports on the bottom of the boat that
> would give me access to cooling water
> source
> if I installed a small pump on this circuit. Pushing this
> water
> through a small fin-fan cooler like
> you would see on water cooled
> motorcycle
> would help with the temperature some what but not
> humidity. At
> Islamorada, the average
> water temperature at the time of the dive was about
> 87F so this would not have helped all that
> much. A small DC AC system that
> controlled
> both temperature and humidity would be better.
>
> On the thruster pneumatic
> pressure compensation, I was very happy with how
> this worked. I have all four of my thrusters
> connected to 1/4" SS tubing
> that is
> manifold into a single pressure reducing/relieving
> regulator
> (thanks Hugh) under the cover
> just aft of the pilot. I was not sure if a
> single regulator would work or if I would need
> one for each thruster but it
> looks like one
> was adequate. I have had two deep dives with the
> arrangement, one to 155 ft and one to 100 ft
> and have had no issues with
> water in the
> thrusters.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Cliff
>
> On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Alan via
> Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
>>
> Thanks Cliff,
>> I presume you shot some
> footage from your sub & this is the entr?e!
>> Nice & clear, you must have been
> pretty happy down there!
>> After you
> mentioned air conditioning, I looked into peltier elements
> &
>> air conditioning units. The
> peltier conditioners have only 25% the
>>
> efficiency
>> of a normal compression
> cycle system, but are really small & by reversing
>> the polarity can act as heaters. A few of
> those peltier elements stuck to
>> the
> hull
>> with air channelled past them
> might be the way to go! Not sure what
>>
> batteries you
>> are using, but the new
> battery technologies on the way will make energy
>> expenditure less of an issue!
>> Do you have all 4 motors exhausting
> through one regulator? Couldn't see
>>
> any
>> air coming out of the motor seals
> so the pressure isn't building up too
>> much
>> when
> exhausting.
>> Cheers Alan
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 9/08/2017, at 8:25
> AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>>
>>
> Added two quick and dirty Youtube videos from 2017 Psubs
> Regatta. The
>> first is the 100 ft dive
> 5.3 miles offshore on Aug 3
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?
> v=sHqL49V0lMw and the second is a night
>> dive in front of Doug's house https://www.youtube.com/watch?
> v=KDBw1ZOdKaI.
>> Alec is working on a
> more comprehensive video of the Regatta.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017
> at 4:53 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings PSUBS group, Douglas Suhr
> here to share my take on the 4-day
>>>
> sub operation we just completed in Islamorada, FL (July
> 31st, August
>>> 1-3).
>>>
>>> Wow, what a
> whirlwind! So July 31st was really an arrival / setup day
>>> with August 1-3 being true operational
> days. Though it was unfortunate
>>>
> that Alec wasn't able to make it with Shackleton, we had
> our hands
>>> full with Cliff's
> R-300. Without Shackleton, we also had enough time
>>> to get Snoopy set up and lowered into
> the canal for some basic diving.
>>>
>>> List of Crew: Dan Lance, Steve
> McQueen, Cliff Redus, Rick Maxwell,
>>>
> River Dolfi, Mike Patterson, Doug, Sarah, Douglas Suhr.
>>>
>>> This was my
> first time meeting Dan Lance, a (retired) saturation
> diver
>>> and commercial welder. What a
> pleasure to have him join us on this
>>> operation. Dan is modest, but most
> willing to share his knowledge and
>>>
> extensive experience with a newbie like me. So pleased to
> have chatted
>>> with him in the Keys.
> During the towing of the R-300, Dan manned the
>>> tow line and helped with comms.
>>>
>>> Steve McQueen
> and River Dolfi did awesome jobs as our frog men.
>>> Filming, attaching / detaching davit
> and tow lines, etc. they were
>>> both
> in and out of the water quite a bit (especially Steve). I
> think
>>> River took a little jelly
> sting for the team. What troopers!
>>>
>>> Cliff and his
> assistant Rick are such a joy be around. Rick is one of
>>> the friendliest people you'll ever
> meet (and even brought a gift for
>>>
> the group: a watermelon, straight from Texas!). Cliff is
> always
>>> willing to share his
> expertise (and sub, too) with anyone who'd like
>>> to learn more. I know that between Dan
> Lance and Cliff, I learned more
>>>
> than I can remember last week.
>>>
>>> Mike Patterson, mom, dad and myself
> were all just providing whatever
>>>
> kind of "troop support" we could to Cliff and the
> R-300.
>>>
>>>
> River, Steve and Myself got in some dive time on Snoopy in
> the canal
>>> (which was great), but I
> think the biggest accomplishment was getting
>>> the R-300 out a ways into the
> ocean.
>>>
>>> Our
> Boston Whaler (a 25' boat with a single 250hp Yamaha)
> was able to
>>> tow the R-300 out about
> 5 miles into the ocean (at about 4mph). We
>>> were in radio communication with Cliff
> most of the time, though we did
>>>
> suffer a few intermittent losses in comms. When we got to a
> spot about
>>> 100 feet deep, we
> started to slow down a bit and at that point the tow
>>> line hook (an admittedly cheap thing)
> let loose(!) so we decided that
>>> we
> had reached our dive location. We switched from marine radio
> to OTS
>>> and Cliff started down.
> Visibility was supurb! As Cliff neared the
>>> bottom at 100 ? 110 feet, he was still
> quite visible from the Whaler!
>>> His
> 18 foot long R-300 looked to be about 3 inches long, but wow
> did
>>> it ever stand out from the rest
> of the sandy bottom. Cliff spent about
>>> an hour "flying" his sub,
> surfacing, diving and maneuvering about,
>>> testing systems and observing the
> ocean around him. By the time Cliff
>>>
> surfaced and we towed back to port Antigua, elapsed time
> stood at 4.5
>>> / 5 hours (estimate).
> Cliff said that he stayed cool by the water
>>> flowing over the sub's dome hatch
> while in tow. Upon returning I think
>>> we were all ready to take a break, but
> everyone felt great
>>> accomplishment
> with the mission.
>>>
>>> A couple of lessons I took away from
> the tow out: We need better tow
>>>
> equipment (better line, hardware and maybe a quick release).
> Our boat
>>> REALLY needs a GPS (still
> don't have one). Towing into waves isn't so
>>> much a problem, but when towing with
> the waves, our tow line needs to
>>> be
> measured so as to sustain the proper distance between tow
> vessel
>>> and sub (otherwise the sub
> and boat are constantly slacking and then
>>> jerking, stressing the tow line and
> making it difficult for boat and
>>>
> sub to track straight).
>>>
>>> The devotion of our crew was amazing,
> even in the heat and the waves
>>>
> everyone did their jobs. Managing even a small sub operation
> like this
>>> is more work / effort
> than meets the eye, that's for sure. At dinner,
>>> one of the main discussions revolved
> around a support vessel that can
>>>
> carry a sub or two on board, eliminating the slow, time
> consuming tow
>>> out to an ocean dive
> site. Dan Lance shared details on his support
>>> vessel project, which is no doubt
> going to be a dream in terms of
>>>
> logistics. Hopefully when said vessel is ready to sail, Dan
> will lend
>>> its services to host a
> diving event! ~ Douglas S.
>>>
>>> ______________________________
> _________________
>>>
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.
> org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/
> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________
> _________________
>> Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.
> org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/
> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
>>
>>
>>
> ______________________________ _________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.
> org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/
> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
>>
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:46:22 +0000 (UTC)
> From: james cottrell via
> Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal Submersibles
> General Discussion
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
> Islamorada Trip Report...
> Message-ID: <1907666847.421009.
> 1502293582178 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Cliff,
> Congrats on your
> dives. Sub really looks great in those videos.
> With regards to an AC solution, one low tech
> method would be to blow air across ice in a small cooler.
> Water ice can be super cooled with Dry Ice the night before.
> Dry ice is about - 100 F and water ice cooled to this
> temperature should stay cold for quite some time.
> Greg C From: Cliff Redus via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> To: Personal Submersibles
> General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 9,
> 2017 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
> Islamorada Trip Report...
>
> Footage from my sub on the trip is limited due
> to condensation on viewport.? I used Dove soap on the
> viewport interior?prior to taking off but because of the
> humidity , temperature and duration of the dive, this
> treatment did not last and I did not have more soap on
> board.? The other issue is I only had two hand towels on
> board and these became soaked with sweat.? As such, they
> were not good for cleaning the condensation off?after the
> two hour tow to the dive site.? Action items:? Have small
> bottle of Dove soap on board and more towels for future long
> duration dives.?
> Yes, I have been reading
> up on peltier coolers.? I have quite a bit of battery
> capacity so this could work.? Unfortunately, mounting on
> hull won't work for me as I have syntactic foam under
> the FRP shell over the hull so I don't have a cool
> surface to mount on.? I do have a pair of plugged off ports
> on the bottom of the boat that would give me access to
> cooling water source if I installed a small pump on this
> circuit.? Pushing this water through a small fin-fan cooler
> like you would see on?water cooled motorcycle would help
> with the temperature some what but not?humidity.? ?At
> Islamorada, the average water temperature at the time of the
> dive was about 87F so this would not have helped all that
> much.? A small DC AC system that controlled both temperature
> and humidity would be better.
> On the
> thruster pneumatic pressure compensation, I was very happy
> with how this worked.? I have all four of my thrusters
> connected to 1/4" SS tubing that is manifold into a
> single pressure reducing/relieving regulator (thanks Hugh)
> ?under the cover just aft of the pilot.?I was not sure if a
> single regulator would work or if I would need one for each
> thruster but it looks like one was adequate.? I have had two
> deep dives with the arrangement, one to 155 ft and one to
> 100 ft and have had no issues with water in the
> thrusters.
> Best Regards
> Cliff
> On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at
> 10:50 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
> Thanks
> Cliff,I presume you shot some footage from your sub &
> this is the entr?e!Nice & clear, you must have been
> pretty happy down there!After you mentioned air
> conditioning, I looked into peltier elements &air
> conditioning units. The peltier conditioners have only 25%
> the efficiency?of a normal compression cycle system, but are
> really small & by reversingthe polarity can act as
> heaters. A few of those peltier elements stuck to the
> hull?with air channelled past them might be the way to go!
> Not sure what batteries youare using, but the new battery
> technologies on the way will make energyexpenditure less of
> an issue!Do you have all 4 motors exhausting through one
> regulator? Couldn't see any?air coming out of the motor
> seals so the pressure isn't building up too muchwhen
> exhausting.Cheers Alan
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> On 9/08/2017,
> at 8:25 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>
>
> Added two
> quick and dirty Youtube videos from 2017 Psubs Regatta.? The
> first is the 100 ft dive 5.3 miles offshore on Aug 3??https://www.youtube.com/
> watch?v=sHqL49V0lMw?and the second is a night dive in front
> of Doug's house??https://www.youtube.
> com/watch?v=KDBw1ZOdKaI.? Alec is working on a more
> comprehensive video of the Regatta.
> Regards
> Cliff
> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Douglas Suhr
> via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org> wrote:
>
> Greetings
> PSUBS group, Douglas Suhr here to share my take on the
> 4-day
> sub operation we just completed in
> Islamorada, FL (July 31st, August
> 1-3).
>
> Wow, what a whirlwind! So July
> 31st was really an arrival / setup day
> with
> August 1-3 being true operational days. Though it was
> unfortunate
> that Alec wasn't able to
> make it with Shackleton, we had our hands
> full with Cliff's R-300. Without
> Shackleton, we also had enough time
> to get
> Snoopy set up and lowered into the canal for some basic
> diving.
>
> List of Crew: Dan
> Lance, Steve McQueen, Cliff Redus, Rick Maxwell,
> River Dolfi, Mike Patterson, Doug, Sarah,
> Douglas Suhr.
>
> This was my
> first time meeting Dan Lance, a (retired) saturation
> diver
> and commercial welder. What a pleasure
> to have him join us on this
> operation. Dan
> is modest, but most willing to share his knowledge and
> extensive experience with a newbie like me. So
> pleased to have chatted
> with him in the
> Keys. During the towing of the R-300, Dan manned the
> tow line and helped with comms.
>
> Steve McQueen and River Dolfi
> did awesome jobs as our frog men.
> Filming,
> attaching / detaching davit and tow lines, etc. they were
> both in and out of the water quite a bit
> (especially Steve). I think
> River took a
> little jelly sting for the team. What troopers!
>
> Cliff and his assistant Rick
> are such a joy be around. Rick is one of
> the
> friendliest people you'll ever meet (and even brought a
> gift for
> the group: a watermelon, straight
> from Texas!). Cliff is always
> willing to
> share his expertise (and sub, too) with anyone who'd
> like
> to learn more. I know that between Dan
> Lance and Cliff, I learned more
> than I can
> remember last week.
>
> Mike
> Patterson, mom, dad and myself were all just providing
> whatever
> kind of "troop support"
> we could to Cliff and the R-300.
>
> River, Steve and Myself got in some dive time
> on Snoopy in the canal
> (which was great),
> but I think the biggest accomplishment was getting
> the R-300 out a ways into the ocean.
>
> Our Boston Whaler (a 25'
> boat with a single 250hp Yamaha) was able to
> tow the R-300 out about 5 miles into the ocean
> (at about 4mph). We
> were in radio
> communication with Cliff most of the time, though we did
> suffer a few intermittent losses in comms. When
> we got to a spot about
> 100 feet deep, we
> started to slow down a bit and at that point the tow
> line hook (an admittedly cheap thing) let
> loose(!) so we decided that
> we had reached
> our dive location. We switched from marine radio to OTS
> and Cliff started down. Visibility was supurb!
> As Cliff neared the
> bottom at 100 ? 110
> feet, he was still quite visible from the Whaler!
> His 18 foot long R-300 looked to be about 3
> inches long, but wow did
> it ever stand out
> from the rest of the sandy bottom. Cliff spent about
> an hour "flying" his sub, surfacing,
> diving and maneuvering about,
> testing
> systems and observing the ocean around him. By the time
> Cliff
> surfaced and we towed back to port
> Antigua, elapsed time stood at 4.5
> / 5 hours
> (estimate). Cliff said that he stayed cool by the water
> flowing over the sub's dome hatch while in
> tow. Upon returning I think
> we were all
> ready to take a break, but everyone felt great
> accomplishment with the mission.
>
> A couple of lessons I took
> away from the tow out: We need better tow
> equipment (better line, hardware and maybe a
> quick release). Our boat
> REALLY needs a GPS
> (still don't have one). Towing into waves isn't
> so
> much a problem, but when towing with the
> waves, our tow line needs to
> be measured so
> as to sustain the proper distance between tow vessel
> and sub (otherwise the sub and boat are
> constantly slacking and then
> jerking,
> stressing the tow line and making it difficult for boat
> and
> sub to track straight).
>
> The devotion of our crew was
> amazing, even in the heat and the waves
> everyone did their jobs. Managing even a small
> sub operation like this
> is more work /
> effort than meets the eye, that's for sure. At
> dinner,
> one of the main discussions revolved
> around a support vessel that can
> carry a sub
> or two on board, eliminating the slow, time consuming tow
> out to an ocean dive site. Dan Lance shared
> details on his support
> vessel project, which
> is no doubt going to be a dream in terms of
> logistics. Hopefully when said vessel is ready
> to sail, Dan will lend
> its services to host
> a diving event! ~ Douglas S.
>
> ______________________________
> _________________
> Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or
> g
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l
> istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________
> _________________
> Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.
> org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/
> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
>
>
> ______________________________
> _________________
> Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.
> org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/
> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
>
>
>
> ______________________________
> _________________
> Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.
> org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/
> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
>
>
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