[PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 140, Issue 1

Wed Aug 6 12:56:48 EDT 2025

Jon,
PSUBS needs a lawyer on retainer. This is an existential threat.

Thanks,

-River J. Dolfi

412-997-2526
rdolfi7 at gmail.com

On Wed, Aug 6, 2025, 12:49 via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to
>         personal_submersibles at psubs.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Great White Submarine FOR SALE
>       (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles)
>    2. Re: "SUB-TERFUGE" (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles)
>    3. Re: "SUB-TERFUGE" (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles)
>    4. Re: "SUB-TERFUGE" (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles)
>    5. USCG Marine Investigation Report and Ramifications
>       (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2025 15:36:53 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Great White Submarine FOR SALE
> Message-ID: <1968732794.589786.1751816213378 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hello folks,
>
> Great White, a highly modified K-250 owned by Scott Cassell, is being
> offered for sale with an asking price of $25,000 (USD) including the
> trailer. This vessel is being sold NOT OPERATING and there is a Liability
> Release required to be signed for the purchase.
>
> Inquiries: jon.wallace at yahoo.com or scottcassell at live.com
>
> Here is a description from Scott Cassell:
>
> Originally built by George Kittredge in 1974, it was upgraded in 2006,
> 2013, 2023 and is currently located in Osprey, Florida, USA.
>
> Her 24VDC and 12VDC need to be re-wired due to salt-intrusion but the base
> wiring is in place to use as a template if you wish to wire her the same
> way we did. The salt intrusion was only once and it happened last year
> during a long-ocean tow and a storm hit us and the dome hatch was cracked
> open. The huge waves delivered water into the hull 4 inches deep getting
> ALL the wiring wet. Now electrical shorts are starting to happen and up to
> 85% of the wiring needs to be replaced. Also, the exterior DSP&L wiring for
> the four LED lights are UV rotted and need to be spliced.
>
> Her dome ring / hatch needs a new "O" ring and the four ballast solenoids
> need to be installed (12V system) to the already existing interior 12V
> buttons. The thruster batteries still work well but need replacing soon
> (Nellis Engineering in California is manuf).
>
> The thrusters, batteries and lights are all included along with chargers,
> oxygen whips and other support equipment. She could be easily diving with
> just 20 hours work and she includes most everything you will need.
>
> Tested depth is 550 ffw (Lake Tahoe)
> Locations she has dove: Lake Tahoe, Fallen Leaf Lake, Tioman, Philippines,
> Switzerland, California Coast, Florida Keys
>
> Total dives 1,212
> Total Time Underwater 3,301 hours
>
> Dimensions
> Length 12 feet 6 inches
> Width 6 feet 4 inches
> Height 5 feet 2 inches
> Weight 3,300 pounds
>
> Systems
> Thruster Power 62 VDC
> House Power 24VDC
> Four DSP&L LED Lights
> Solenoid Valves (4 ballast) 12VDC
> Main Thrusters Genesis DPV Reversible
> Vertical Thruster MinnKota 24 VDC compensated
>
> Personnel Two, mission specialist & pilot
> Ballast Air Provided by Two Blue Steel 149 cuft tanks
> Ballast Pontoons Two aluminum 12 ft long x 1 ft wide & tall (one on either
> side)
> Ports; One Main Dome (1? thick), 16? bow port (2? thick) and two on tower
> (3? thick)
> Drop Weight 300 pounds on belly
> Communications OTS SSB 2010
> Oxygen Two Blue Steel 50 cuft tanks
> Life Support O2 injection CO2 removal
> Max Duration 24 Hours Life Support
> Electrical Power 4 hrs full speed, 16 hrs
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2025 18:03:30 -0400
> From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: James Huffman via Personal_Submersibles
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] "SUB-TERFUGE"
> Message-ID: <a9d8ca28-de88-ddee-aa84-26a82052d4e1 at ohiohills.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Someone must have a contact in Australia.
>
> About? ten years ago someone here talked about a shark-shaped
> submarine.? Would a squid be a model for a drug submarine?
>
> What might happen if a pod of orca encountered a "hyper-realistic whale"
> made of fiberglass?? Is it possible that someone wading out to meet the
> fake crocodile found that it was a real croc?? As with every other
> overly-clever dodge, the potential for disaster is unlimited.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 7/5/2025 1:36 AM, James Huffman via Personal_Submersibles wrote:
> > That's an interesting idea. Would be interesting to see what thier
> > designs look like and how effective they would be.
> --
>
> The amusement value of humans cannot be overestimated.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 00:06:56 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: James Huffman via Personal_Submersibles
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] "SUB-TERFUGE"
> Message-ID: <1748714034.680643.1751846816592 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I searched but was unable to find a photo of one.? I did find a similar
> article in "The Advertiser" from Queensland that referenced the same drug
> subs but did not use adjectives such as "hyper-realistic" to describe
> them.? I suspect the Fortean Times used a little literary license to
> sensationalize their article and the actual vessels are not so realistic
> after all.? The Marlin S-101 submarine used to be painted in Orca colors.?
> Not what I would consider hyper-realistic but close enough to catch
> someone's eye.
>
>
> https://i0.wp.com/makezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/image2.jpg?w=2000&ssl=1
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, July 6, 2025 at 06:09:37 PM EDT, Michael Holt via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Someone must have a contact in Australia.
>
> About? ten years ago someone here talked about a shark-shaped
> submarine.? Would a squid be a model for a drug submarine?
>
> What might happen if a pod of orca encountered a "hyper-realistic whale"
> made of fiberglass?? Is it possible that someone wading out to meet the
> fake crocodile found that it was a real croc?? As with every other
> overly-clever dodge, the potential for disaster is unlimited.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 7/5/2025 1:36 AM, James Huffman via Personal_Submersibles wrote:
> > That's an interesting idea. Would be interesting to see what thier
> > designs look like and how effective they would be.
> --
>
> The amusement value of humans cannot be overestimated.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 22:19:58 -0400
> From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] "SUB-TERFUGE"
> Message-ID: <b42a609a-5751-e8b9-221a-16250cbb7059 at ohiohills.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Thanks for the link.
>
> The cover of /Fortean Times /offers "The World's Weirdest News" and "The
> World of Strange Phenomena." That should be sufficient warning!? The
> same person who told me about that told me that /People/ magazine had an
> article about the /Titan/, but it was off the stands before I could get it.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 7/6/2025 8:06 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote:
> > I searched but was unable to find a photo of one.? I did find a similar
> article in "The Advertiser" from Queensland that referenced the same drug
> subs but did not use adjectives such as "hyper-realistic" to describe
> them.? I suspect the Fortean Times used a little literary license to
> sensationalize their article and the actual vessels are not so realistic
> after all.? The Marlin S-101 submarine used to be painted in Orca colors.?
> Not what I would consider hyper-realistic but close enough to catch
> someone's eye.
> >
> >
> https://i0.wp.com/makezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/image2.jpg?w=2000&ssl=1
> >
> > Jon
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20250707/09d2c336/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 16:48:09 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USCG Marine Investigation Report and
>         Ramifications
> Message-ID: <1942712885.2621594.1754498889210 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Psubbers,
>
> This is a long message, but please read.
>
> The US Coast Guard has released their Marine Investigation report of the
> Titan submersible implosion at
>
> https://media.defense.gov/2025/Aug/05/2003773004/-1/-1/0/SUBMERSIBLE%20TITAN%20MBI%20REPORT%20(04AUG2025).PDF
>
> Since this report is going to generate chatter throughout the submersible
> industry I thought it appropriate to make a statement and start an official
> discussion relative to our own organization.
>
> Now that the Marine Boards report is public we are sure to see an uptick
> in attention to the operation of our vessels and potentially some movement
> to save ourselves, from ourselves, and need to be proactive in addressing
> this issue rather than allowing some other agency or organization to define
> our future.? While we are not the largest organization in the world, we ARE
> the largest organization in the world associated with private submersible
> fabrication, operation, and ownership and therefore have standing to be
> recognized and heard regarding any government regulation that might affect
> us.
>
> >From PSUBS beginning it has always been my position, and still is, that
> private recreational use of our vessels is difficult for the government to
> regulate due to the ?pursuit of happiness? founding principles of the USA.?
> It is my opinion, for example, that this was one reason recreational
> submersibles had a specific section carved out for them in USCG NVIC 5-93
> (see Chapter 1, B, 4) and were equated to pleasure surface boats.
> To wit:
>
> USCG NVIC 5-93, Chapter 1, B, 4
> ?Recreational vessels, as defined in 46 U.S.C. 2101(25), are vessels
> manufactured or operated primarily for pleasure, or leased, rented, or
> chartered to another for the latter's pleasure. Submersibles within this
> category are subject to the requirements of 33 CFR Subchapter S - Boating
> Safety, Parts 173-183. The guidelines in this circular generally do not
> apply; however, depending on the area of operation, COTP operating
> restrictions may be appropriate. This will be evaluated on a case-by-case
> basis. These guidelines may be of assistance to a manufacturer or owner of
> a recreational submersible.?
>
> As optimistic as I am regarding our rights as private submersible owners,
> the Titan disaster does represent a potential impact to us and we should
> have a message ready to deliver to the US Coast Guard to protect our
> interests.? Specifically, I have concerns related to carrying passengers
> (not for hire) and impacts to private submersibles participating in
> research and/or acting as a non-passenger commercial operator.? We enjoy
> quite a bit of latitude given the language of NVIC 5-93, 1, B, 4 and it
> should be our goal to preserve it as currently written.
>
>
>
> The USCG Marine Investigation Board made 14 safety recommendations to the
> USCG Commandant.? While the majority of these recommendations target
> vessels conducting commercial and oceanographic research operations, the
> following draw my concern as potential serious impacts to our PSUBS related
> pursuits.
>
> 8.1.1. Recommendation #1: The USCG should establish an industry working
> group to review and update NVIC 5-93. During the investigation, submersible
> industry leaders indicated to the MBI that current USCG limitations on
> operating parameters, including the maximum depth of 150-feet for Coast
> Guard inspected passenger submersibles, was stifling submersible owners
> from exploring new passenger operations in U.S. navigable waters and also
> potentially incentivizing operators like OceanGate to conduct non compliant
> operations. An update to the NVIC would also provide an opportunity to
> clearly outline the process for certifying submersibles of novel design.
>
> PSUBS POSITION
> PSUBS *must* be included in any working group the government creates to
> update NVIC 5-93 and/or create regulations that may impact us.? We cannot
> afford to sit idly by and allow ?industry leaders? and/or the government
> itself to revise this document without our input.? It is notable that the
> USCG regularly attends the MTS Underwater Intervention and participates in
> discussions with MUV commercial attendees; however the USCG has never
> accepted an invitation to a PSUBS convention.? Regrettably, we own some
> responsibility for lack of communication with the USCG since we have often
> taken the philosophy of ?let sleeping dogs lie? and ?out of sight, out of
> mind? when considering our interaction with them; however I think we can no
> longer afford to take this approach.? This month I will be writing the USCG
> Commandant seeking inclusion of a PSUBS representative in any working group
> organized to review NVIC 5-93 and/or any other regulatory act that may
> impact our organization.? Addit!
>  ionally, I will be requesting the USCG send a representative to PC2026 to
> conduct discussions with PSUBS members regarding issues and concerns
> relative to our segment of the submersible industry and to start fostering
> communication between us.
>
> ?
>
> 8.1.6. Recommendation #6: The USCG should pursue a new regulation which
> requires all submersibles manufactured, owned, or operated by a U.S. entity
> or any submersible operating in U.S. navigable waters carrying any occupant
> other than the owner to be built to the standards of a USCG RO and
> maintained under those standards.
>
> PSUBS POSITION
> Any language requiring certification for privately owned submersibles is a
> serious detriment to our pursuits since from a financial perspective it
> essentially is a show stopper.? This recommendation goes well beyond the
> current wording in NVIC 5-93 which clearly demarcates commercial, passenger
> carrying, and recreational submersibles.? If implemented as suggested it
> would prevent us from carrying our own spouses, families, and friends as an
> occupant unless the vessel was certified.? It is PSUBS position that this
> unreasonably restricts our right to pursue sharing our hobby with voluntary
> passengers who are not for hire.
>
> ?
>
> 8.1.7. Recommendation #7: The USCG should pursue an update to the vessel
> documentation requirements in 46 CFR ? 67.7, to require all U.S.
> submersibles that conduct commercial or scientific operations to obtain a
> USCG Certificate of Documentation (COD) with an Official Number assigned
> and recorded in the MISLE database.
>
> PSUBS POSITION
> We currently have a number of privately owned submersibles that are used
> to conduct various types of research, free of charge, for universities and
> science organizations whom have a need for a deep diving vessel beyond the
> range of SCUBA.? This recommendation by the Marine Investigative board
> could have severe impact on those missions and it is PSUBS position that
> this recommendation unreasonably restricts a private submersible owner from
> providing a donated service targeted for the advance of science.
>
> ?
>
> WHAT YOU NEED TO DO (right now)
> Minimally all PSUBS members should read the ?Recommendations? section of
> the USCG Marine Investigation Board starting on page 324 and consider how
> this impacts you personally or our organization and raise it as a concern
> if it has not been addressed already.
>
> Additionally, start thinking now about issues and concerns we should
> address with the USCG at PC2026 in February.? The more that we can speak
> with one consistent message in terms of specific issues that we feel need
> to be preserved or modified to our benefit, the better we will present
> ourselves.
>
> Jon
>
> ?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 140, Issue 1
> *****************************************************
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20250806/0aabf5e1/attachment-0001.html>