[PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 140, Issue 1

Wed Aug 6 14:46:17 EDT 2025

My apologies for not having time to read the original post right now.  However after the 2010 Psubs convention we developed protocols and safety standards for any Psubs sanctioned event.  Any person diving in a sub whether as pilot or passenger is required to first sign an informed waiver.  We also designate a Safety Officer for each diving event.  That's not to say there is no need to review everything and possibly update something from time to time.
 As far as the Titan goes, there's no way I would have even considered going down in that thing.  I will not make any comment regarding it beyond that.  The differences between most of the Psubs submersibles and deep sea submersibles is analogous to the difference between a light aircraft and the Space Shuttle. It's helpful if you include your name with you comment since it doesn't necessarily identify the source unless you intentionally prefer to remain anonymous. Thanks,Jim Todd
In a message dated 8/6/2025 11:57:15 AM Central Daylight Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: 
Jon,PSUBS needs a lawyer on retainer. This is an existential threat. Thanks, -River J. Dolfi
412-997-2526rdolfi7 at gmail.com
On Wed, Aug 6, 2025, 12:49 via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

   1. Great White Submarine FOR SALE
      (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles)
   2. Re: "SUB-TERFUGE" (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles)
   3. Re: "SUB-TERFUGE" (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles)
   4. Re: "SUB-TERFUGE" (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles)
   5. USCG Marine Investigation Report and Ramifications
      (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles)

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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2025 15:36:53 +0000 (UTC)
From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
        <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
        <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Great White Submarine FOR SALE
Message-ID: <1968732794.589786.1751816213378 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hello folks,

Great White, a highly modified K-250 owned by Scott Cassell, is being offered for sale with an asking price of $25,000 (USD) including the trailer. This vessel is being sold NOT OPERATING and there is a Liability Release required to be signed for the purchase.

Inquiries: jon.wallace at yahoo.com or scottcassell at live.com

Here is a description from Scott Cassell:

Originally built by George Kittredge in 1974, it was upgraded in 2006, 2013, 2023 and is currently located in Osprey, Florida, USA.

Her 24VDC and 12VDC need to be re-wired due to salt-intrusion but the base wiring is in place to use as a template if you wish to wire her the same way we did. The salt intrusion was only once and it happened last year during a long-ocean tow and a storm hit us and the dome hatch was cracked open. The huge waves delivered water into the hull 4 inches deep getting ALL the wiring wet. Now electrical shorts are starting to happen and up to 85% of the wiring needs to be replaced. Also, the exterior DSP&L wiring for the four LED lights are UV rotted and need to be spliced.

Her dome ring / hatch needs a new "O" ring and the four ballast solenoids need to be installed (12V system) to the already existing interior 12V buttons. The thruster batteries still work well but need replacing soon (Nellis Engineering in California is manuf).

The thrusters, batteries and lights are all included along with chargers, oxygen whips and other support equipment. She could be easily diving with just 20 hours work and she includes most everything you will need.

Tested depth is 550 ffw (Lake Tahoe)
Locations she has dove: Lake Tahoe, Fallen Leaf Lake, Tioman, Philippines, Switzerland, California Coast, Florida Keys

Total dives 1,212
Total Time Underwater 3,301 hours

Dimensions
Length 12 feet 6 inches
Width 6 feet 4 inches
Height 5 feet 2 inches
Weight 3,300 pounds

Systems
Thruster Power 62 VDC
House Power 24VDC
Four DSP&L LED Lights
Solenoid Valves (4 ballast) 12VDC
Main Thrusters Genesis DPV Reversible
Vertical Thruster MinnKota 24 VDC compensated

Personnel Two, mission specialist & pilot
Ballast Air Provided by Two Blue Steel 149 cuft tanks
Ballast Pontoons Two aluminum 12 ft long x 1 ft wide & tall (one on either side)
Ports; One Main Dome (1? thick), 16? bow port (2? thick) and two on tower (3? thick)
Drop Weight 300 pounds on belly
Communications OTS SSB 2010
Oxygen Two Blue Steel 50 cuft tanks
Life Support O2 injection CO2 removal
Max Duration 24 Hours Life Support
Electrical Power 4 hrs full speed, 16 hrs

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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2025 18:03:30 -0400
From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles
        <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: James Huffman via Personal_Submersibles
        <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] "SUB-TERFUGE"
Message-ID: <a9d8ca28-de88-ddee-aa84-26a82052d4e1 at ohiohills.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Someone must have a contact in Australia.

About? ten years ago someone here talked about a shark-shaped 
submarine.? Would a squid be a model for a drug submarine?

What might happen if a pod of orca encountered a "hyper-realistic whale" 
made of fiberglass?? Is it possible that someone wading out to meet the 
fake crocodile found that it was a real croc?? As with every other 
overly-clever dodge, the potential for disaster is unlimited.

Mike

On 7/5/2025 1:36 AM, James Huffman via Personal_Submersibles wrote:
> That's an interesting idea. Would be interesting to see what thier 
> designs look like and how effective they would be.
-- 

The amusement value of humans cannot be overestimated.

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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 00:06:56 +0000 (UTC)
From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
        <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: James Huffman via Personal_Submersibles
        <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] "SUB-TERFUGE"
Message-ID: <1748714034.680643.1751846816592 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I searched but was unable to find a photo of one.? I did find a similar article in "The Advertiser" from Queensland that referenced the same drug subs but did not use adjectives such as "hyper-realistic" to describe them.? I suspect the Fortean Times used a little literary license to sensationalize their article and the actual vessels are not so realistic after all.? The Marlin S-101 submarine used to be painted in Orca colors.? Not what I would consider hyper-realistic but close enough to catch someone's eye.

https://i0.wp.com/makezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/image2.jpg?w=2000&ssl=1

Jon

On Sunday, July 6, 2025 at 06:09:37 PM EDT, Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: 

Someone must have a contact in Australia.

About? ten years ago someone here talked about a shark-shaped 
submarine.? Would a squid be a model for a drug submarine?

What might happen if a pod of orca encountered a "hyper-realistic whale" 
made of fiberglass?? Is it possible that someone wading out to meet the 
fake crocodile found that it was a real croc?? As with every other 
overly-clever dodge, the potential for disaster is unlimited.

Mike

On 7/5/2025 1:36 AM, James Huffman via Personal_Submersibles wrote:
> That's an interesting idea. Would be interesting to see what thier 
> designs look like and how effective they would be.
-- 

The amusement value of humans cannot be overestimated.

_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 22:19:58 -0400
From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles
        <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
        <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] "SUB-TERFUGE"
Message-ID: <b42a609a-5751-e8b9-221a-16250cbb7059 at ohiohills.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

Thanks for the link.

The cover of /Fortean Times /offers "The World's Weirdest News" and "The 
World of Strange Phenomena." That should be sufficient warning!? The 
same person who told me about that told me that /People/ magazine had an 
article about the /Titan/, but it was off the stands before I could get it.

Mike

On 7/6/2025 8:06 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote:
> I searched but was unable to find a photo of one.? I did find a similar article in "The Advertiser" from Queensland that referenced the same drug subs but did not use adjectives such as "hyper-realistic" to describe them.? I suspect the Fortean Times used a little literary license to sensationalize their article and the actual vessels are not so realistic after all.? The Marlin S-101 submarine used to be painted in Orca colors.? Not what I would consider hyper-realistic but close enough to catch someone's eye.
>
> https://i0.wp.com/makezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/image2.jpg?w=2000&ssl=1
>
> Jon

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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 16:48:09 +0000 (UTC)
From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
        <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
        <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USCG Marine Investigation Report and
        Ramifications
Message-ID: <1942712885.2621594.1754498889210 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Psubbers,

This is a long message, but please read.

The US Coast Guard has released their Marine Investigation report of the Titan submersible implosion at
https://media.defense.gov/2025/Aug/05/2003773004/-1/-1/0/SUBMERSIBLE%20TITAN%20MBI%20REPORT%20(04AUG2025).PDF

Since this report is going to generate chatter throughout the submersible industry I thought it appropriate to make a statement and start an official discussion relative to our own organization.

Now that the Marine Boards report is public we are sure to see an uptick in attention to the operation of our vessels and potentially some movement to save ourselves, from ourselves, and need to be proactive in addressing this issue rather than allowing some other agency or organization to define our future.? While we are not the largest organization in the world, we ARE the largest organization in the world associated with private submersible fabrication, operation, and ownership and therefore have standing to be recognized and heard regarding any government regulation that might affect us.

>From PSUBS beginning it has always been my position, and still is, that private recreational use of our vessels is difficult for the government to regulate due to the ?pursuit of happiness? founding principles of the USA.? It is my opinion, for example, that this was one reason recreational submersibles had a specific section carved out for them in USCG NVIC 5-93 (see Chapter 1, B, 4) and were equated to pleasure surface boats.
To wit:

USCG NVIC 5-93, Chapter 1, B, 4
?Recreational vessels, as defined in 46 U.S.C. 2101(25), are vessels manufactured or operated primarily for pleasure, or leased, rented, or chartered to another for the latter's pleasure. Submersibles within this category are subject to the requirements of 33 CFR Subchapter S - Boating Safety, Parts 173-183. The guidelines in this circular generally do not apply; however, depending on the area of operation, COTP operating restrictions may be appropriate. This will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. These guidelines may be of assistance to a manufacturer or owner of a recreational submersible.?

As optimistic as I am regarding our rights as private submersible owners, the Titan disaster does represent a potential impact to us and we should have a message ready to deliver to the US Coast Guard to protect our interests.? Specifically, I have concerns related to carrying passengers (not for hire) and impacts to private submersibles participating in research and/or acting as a non-passenger commercial operator.? We enjoy quite a bit of latitude given the language of NVIC 5-93, 1, B, 4 and it should be our goal to preserve it as currently written.

The USCG Marine Investigation Board made 14 safety recommendations to the USCG Commandant.? While the majority of these recommendations target vessels conducting commercial and oceanographic research operations, the following draw my concern as potential serious impacts to our PSUBS related pursuits.

8.1.1. Recommendation #1: The USCG should establish an industry working group to review and update NVIC 5-93. During the investigation, submersible industry leaders indicated to the MBI that current USCG limitations on operating parameters, including the maximum depth of 150-feet for Coast Guard inspected passenger submersibles, was stifling submersible owners from exploring new passenger operations in U.S. navigable waters and also potentially incentivizing operators like OceanGate to conduct non compliant operations. An update to the NVIC would also provide an opportunity to clearly outline the process for certifying submersibles of novel design.

PSUBS POSITION
PSUBS *must* be included in any working group the government creates to update NVIC 5-93 and/or create regulations that may impact us.? We cannot afford to sit idly by and allow ?industry leaders? and/or the government itself to revise this document without our input.? It is notable that the USCG regularly attends the MTS Underwater Intervention and participates in discussions with MUV commercial attendees; however the USCG has never accepted an invitation to a PSUBS convention.? Regrettably, we own some responsibility for lack of communication with the USCG since we have often taken the philosophy of ?let sleeping dogs lie? and ?out of sight, out of mind? when considering our interaction with them; however I think we can no longer afford to take this approach.? This month I will be writing the USCG Commandant seeking inclusion of a PSUBS representative in any working group organized to review NVIC 5-93 and/or any other regulatory act that may impact our organization.? Addit!
 ionally, I will be requesting the USCG send a representative to PC2026 to conduct discussions with PSUBS members regarding issues and concerns relative to our segment of the submersible industry and to start fostering communication between us.

?

8.1.6. Recommendation #6: The USCG should pursue a new regulation which requires all submersibles manufactured, owned, or operated by a U.S. entity or any submersible operating in U.S. navigable waters carrying any occupant other than the owner to be built to the standards of a USCG RO and maintained under those standards.

PSUBS POSITION
Any language requiring certification for privately owned submersibles is a serious detriment to our pursuits since from a financial perspective it essentially is a show stopper.? This recommendation goes well beyond the current wording in NVIC 5-93 which clearly demarcates commercial, passenger carrying, and recreational submersibles.? If implemented as suggested it would prevent us from carrying our own spouses, families, and friends as an occupant unless the vessel was certified.? It is PSUBS position that this unreasonably restricts our right to pursue sharing our hobby with voluntary passengers who are not for hire.

?

8.1.7. Recommendation #7: The USCG should pursue an update to the vessel documentation requirements in 46 CFR ? 67.7, to require all U.S. submersibles that conduct commercial or scientific operations to obtain a USCG Certificate of Documentation (COD) with an Official Number assigned and recorded in the MISLE database.

PSUBS POSITION
We currently have a number of privately owned submersibles that are used to conduct various types of research, free of charge, for universities and science organizations whom have a need for a deep diving vessel beyond the range of SCUBA.? This recommendation by the Marine Investigative board could have severe impact on those missions and it is PSUBS position that this recommendation unreasonably restricts a private submersible owner from providing a donated service targeted for the advance of science.

?

WHAT YOU NEED TO DO (right now)
Minimally all PSUBS members should read the ?Recommendations? section of the USCG Marine Investigation Board starting on page 324 and consider how this impacts you personally or our organization and raise it as a concern if it has not been addressed already.

Additionally, start thinking now about issues and concerns we should address with the USCG at PC2026 in February.? The more that we can speak with one consistent message in terms of specific issues that we feel need to be preserved or modified to our benefit, the better we will present ourselves.

Jon

?

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End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 140, Issue 1
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