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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] the half pipe returns!



Hi. Your design is taking shape and I see it's being refined as time goes on. I have a couple of ideas I'd like to offer. Jim K. has a large dome viewport on his sub. I think it's a 39 inch dome with a short tapered section connecting it to his 48 inch dia. hull. He will be able to advise you on what it takes to fabricate the dome and hull connection. Jim posted a picture of his new dome a short while ago and it's available on the psub site. Look at member projects. I think his dome was about $4K and the size was decided on due to fabrication limitations. Unless you are building the dome with a cast-molded method, 39 inch is as large as it gets.
A single cast-molded dome larger than that will be very expensive. Maybe closer to $20K. I don't see any type of guard or bumper shown on your sketch to protect the domes from impact. You might consider that.
    If I see the sketch right, you have an acrylic tube section in your tower. I've heard good things about that type of window, and cost wise, it seems like a good way to go. Greg Cottrell builds many of the windows we use, and should be consulted on window design, fabrication, and availability. He's the guy with the right answers.
  On the saddle tanks you have on the sketch. Are they welded to the hull or are they to be fabricated as separate tanks and then attached? All the subs I've seen have a way to access the interior of the tanks so cleaning and re-painting can be done.  Look at the pictures on the psub site at the subs with saddle tanks. They are very stable both on the surface and while submerged, and provide a large area on top of the sub that's very useful while surfaced. Dan's blue sub has a flat "deck" and it's easy to climb into. Very user friendly. His tanks have square access plates that can be opened so maintenance on the inside can be done. They can also be removed for painting on the hull. If the tanks are made of stainless or fiberglass, then inside work is minimized. Stainless will get dented, fiberglass will break. Each tank needs a way to add/remove air so the more tanks you have, the more through-hulls and plumbing you need. The larger the tanks are, the more air you need to carry for blowing them, and when submerged, the more mass you are dragging around. There's a trade-off here.
    The 4 tank design is maybe more than you need. If your sub is balanced side-to-side, it won't roll much. More important is front-to-back control. The angle is important because you could possibly get the sub angled enough to prevent air from releasing and then the situation gets worse so the sub can actually get vertical. A slight difference in ballast tank buoyancy can make a big difference in "center of buoyancy" and throw the sub into a dive angle. Plumbing locations and design are critical elements, along with the shape of the tanks. The tanks either need to be located at the very top of the sub, or at least have a point way up high so that even with a steep angle, the plumbing is always at the top.
     Your skids on the sketch could have places where something like a tree branch or other submerged object could get wedged in there. Any place where something can get hooked on your sub should be avoided. Especially on the bottom where a sunken object could trap the sub. It doesn't take much to hold a sub down. Just a small tree branch or bit of seaweed is enough. Try to keep the entire surface as sleek as possible. This will help eliminate snag points, and with a sleek shape, your batteries will last much longer.
      On your trim tanks, they look really big. I didn't see any drop weight on the sketch. Most of the small subs have fairly small trim tanks. This is used for fine adjustment of buoyancy. Any major change like adding a passenger or  adding/subtracting a piece of equipment is compensated by adjusting the on-board lead ballast while at the surface. If you anticipate picking something off the bottom which would add weight to the sub, a lift-bag or some type of device to add buoyancy is an inexpensive approach, and is safer. You can detach yourself from the object/lift-bag and still surface the sub. Trim tanks usually are not much more than about 10 gallons. Sometimes there are two. One in front, and one in back, with a pump to move the water back and forth so the "trim angle" can be adjusted. This is after the total amount of water is added to achieve neutral buoyancy, and the trim tanks are valved off from the exterior. The trim tanks are usually filled while the sub is submerged but still shallow, so a lot of pressure isn't built up inside the tanks. If you launch the sub in a fresh water river and then motor out to the ocean, the difference in buoyancy between fresh and salt water will make it necessary to readjust the trim tank fill level, but generally the level stays the same so filling is made at the beginning of the dive. The drop weight and it's release mechanism is a critical part of your sub. I've always thought that the bigger-the-better approach here was good. It's the last resort to getting out of trouble while submerged, and should be designed so it always works, no matter what. It's better to lose an expensive drop weight than to be stuck and needing a rescue. If you attach a buoy to the drop weight, you can always go back down and hook a cable to it for retrieval from a surface boat. Not many places have a sub available to come and rescue you if you're stuck on the bottom, and flooding and exiting a trapped sub is a whole can-of-worms that we talk about all the time, but nobody really wants to go there.
The drop weight is a crucial part of any sub.
    I suggest you build some scale models of your sub, and test them. For your design, a small camping propane tank is very close to the right shape of the hull. Measure the displacement, and make the hull model weigh the same amount as your proposed hull will be. Make some ballast tanks that again weigh as much as the full size sub will. See how big the tanks need to be, how it all balances out. Copy ( in scale ) the different designs and test them. I found this method to be very useful, and really a lot of fun too. It saved me a lot of work and made the design process much easier. Keep it all to scale in size and weight, and you will get a good idea of how the sub will perform. I made several ballast tank designs with thin sheet metal, soldered them water tight, added lead weights where needed, and attached them to the hull shapes I had made. I learned a lot from the process, and saved a ton of money before committing to my final design. I even used the models to test how much power it takes to move it through the water, how much drop weight to use, and how stable it was when submerged and surfaced. Now that I've started on the real thing, my grand sons get to play with the models.
    This phase of your project is the most fun, and should actually take the most time. There was a thread here a while back, talking about "how" to design a sub. My approach was to first decide what I wanted the sub to do, and with that as a goal, design it so it achieves that purpose. There are as many designs as there are guys doing it. Many of the individual components are the same from one sub to the other, while some of the different shapes are radically different. A good place to start is the K boat plans. Really a bargain at that price, even if you don't plan on following them very closely. It's a tested and proven design, and is a good place to start. A small sub probably starts around $20K for the minimum so $350 for a set of plans that works is really cheap, even if it's just for the information contained in them.
    I'm no expert, but all the good advice I've received from these guys has helped save me a ton of dough and made the whole process a lot of fun.
    As I said, this part of the build is the most fun. Enjoy it, and ask lots of questions. These guys are all willing to help. Frank D.
      




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