[PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators

brian brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com
Thu Feb 6 18:21:26 EST 2014 

 I had a similar idea for my front "aileron" flaps.  I was planning on embedding a cordless drill ( high torque) , sealing it and filling with mineral oil.  It seems like the ones I looked at were all mechanically reversible , where they use a gear to reverse.  Although I can't be sure because I haven't taken any of them apart yet.  Phil,  do you know of a particular brand that is reversible by polarity?
Brian Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Nuytten" <phil at philnuytten.com>
Sent 1/19/2014 6:05:09 PM
To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ManipulatorsThere is no movement of the air pistons when they are not in use – that is,
there is no air in the pistons once you exhaust the pressurization air back into
the one atmosphere cabin. The pistons are then dead-headed until you energize
them again. Note that this simple little system is designed to be used while the
sub is on the bottom. I have used it up off bottom but it gets pretty busy
maintaining position by VBT or upthrust and operating the manip valves at the
same time.If you really want to go ultracheap on an electric manip, buy a reversible
dc electric drill, stick it in a thin walled tube, fill it with oil, set it on
slow and use the rotation to operate a rack and pinion system which gives you a
lineal movement like a piston  (run the rotary shaft through a camera case
style o ring gland or an imperial tubing fitting or a  swagelock style
compression fitting with an oring or teflon ring substitiuting for the
compression olive or the metal compression ring)– rack and pinion all stay out
side in the water. We built several of these to use with a small ROV and it
worked OK – (also used two drill motors for propulsion  on the ROV!)Phil From:Alan JamesSent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:48 PMTo:Personal Submersibles General
DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Phil, great system description.I
tried Googling for the sea urchin manipulator but couldn't even find the Sea
Urchin.Would
appreciate seeing any pictures of it.One
question. How do you counter the variations in pressure as you dive &
ascendfrom
causing the cylinders piston to move in & out or do you just live with
this?From the frustration I've heard from K
boat builders through ambiguities in the plans,dangerous
elements in the design (hard ballast tank) & antiquated parts, it might be timely
to ditch the Kitrege plans & replace
them.  But I might get shot for saying that.Alan From: Phil
Nuytten <phil at philnuytten.com>To: Personal Submersibles General
Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:52
AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
Manipulators Yes, as Vance says we did work up a pneumatic manip for the original ‘Sea
Urchin’ sub. The design criteria was: brute simple, three functions
(extend/retract, swing 90 degrees each side/ jaw open/close) and, above all,
CHEAP!! we used air cylinders, plastic tubing and three-way valves – one for
each function. The valves exhausted back into the sub cabin. The system pressure
was about 200 psi, as I recall, and the manip was operated independently from a
scuba pony tank mounted outside for that purpose. System  pressure was kept
at 200 psi over bottom, regardless of depth  by the first stage of a scuba
regulator with the spring shimmed to 200 psi and the reg yoked to the tank in
the usual fashion. Very simple system and it worked well – the exhaust into the
cabin was so small as to cause only a slight increase in cabin pressure because
the piston area is only a couple of square inches. Over pressure on a move into
shallower water was avoided by a circle-seal non-return vent valve – same one
used to suck a vacuum on the sub before diving. I have some pretty good pictures of the manip on Sea Urchin which I’ll try
to dig up and post. Speaking of Sea Urchin, I have often toyed with the the idea
of putting out a  Sea Urchin Kit – ala Kitteridge - but don’t know how much
interest there would be.Phil From:Alan JamesSent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:54 AMTo:Personal
Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Here is a great looking manipulator for .31c US.Not
sure what the postage is from Poland. I tried the "buy now" on another link but
couldn't
initiate a purchase. http://http://robosklep.eu/sklep/pl/p/Hydraulic-Arm/231Alan From: Alan
James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>To: Personal Submersibles General
Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:20 PMSubject: Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Thanks Vance,I'll
have a look in to the pneumatic manipulator; however there are
problemsthat
come to mind, like how do you stop the whole unit going in & out like a
concertinawith
water pressure changes.Alan From:
"vbra676539 at aol.com" <vbra676539 at aol.com>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, January
25, 2014 10:50 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
Manipulators I can't answer, as I have precisely
zero experience with pneumo manips. Nuytco did in fact cook one up for the Sea
Urchin, which seemed to work okay, but I don't know anything about it. Sorry.
That said, if it's cheap and it works (even if it's a pain in the ass) then it's
worth having. Subs should be able to DO something, not just cruise around like
an oversized camera housing with motors. I'd give serious consideration to the
ball and socket arm, which functions adequately down to about 600 feet
(according to the boys who have used them). We figure one would cost about
$500-600 USD to machine, plus material and welding. A thousand bucks or a little
more isn't bad, considering there are exactly three moving parts in the whole
thing (as opposed to a hydraulic system which has about 3 moving parts to the
running inch).Vance-----Original
Message-----
From: Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Jan 24, 2014
3:12 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ManipulatorsOne more question Vance & I'll leave you in peacefor a week.For a small non commercial submersible operating to 500 ftthat has a very limited use for a manipulator other than it being there
just in case we come across some item of value. Is a pneumatic manipulator
a goodoption? Air is already there & wouldn't be consumed much becauseof the limited use. No noise & expensive space consuming hydraulic
system.And as you say there are options for lifting heavier items.Thanks,Alan
Sent from my iPad
On 25/01/2014, at 8:01 am, Joe Perkel <josephperkel at yahoo.com> wrote:I particularly liked the PVC tube with the furled lift
            bag and air source, now that's got real "get work done" utility.
            It seems to me that a permanently mounted air
            source terminating just aft of the claw is a natural companion set-up
            for anyone with a manipulator on a PSUB. 
            Joe
            Sent
            from Yahoo Mail for iPad From:Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>;
To:Personal
Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>;
Subject:Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulators Sent:Fri, Jan 24, 2014 6:09:42 PM Thanks Vance,that's
            shed some light on the subject.Alan From: Vance Bradley <Vbra676539 at AOL.com>To: Personal
            Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
            Sent:
            Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:42 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
            Manipulators Alan,I've seen the discussion. The smallest sub I know of with a
            manipulator on board is the Deepworker. No exfra tanks there.
            Metacentric vs CG works in all directions. Yes, you get movement and no
            it's not a problem in my experience. I did operate the bigger subs but
            also smaller ones, to include Aquarius, briefly in a DW, plus three
            different K-boats, so speak with some experience. You put everything you
            imagine on a small sub, you get a big sub. In any case, It's probably
            best to think of a psub as a work in progress. Get the boat done, go
            play, scratch head, get more work done, go play, scratch head......and
            so it goes.Vance
            Sent from my iPhone
            On Jan 24, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:Vance,a couple of people have mentioned lately the problem of the
            shifting ofbalance as you reach out with a manipulator & have talked
            about countering it withtrim tanks. Is it a big deal if you go nose down, tail up?
            Possibly more of a problem working on a vertical face than picking something up off the bottom. Some of our subs will be a lot smaller than the working subs you were in so the problem would be
            accentuated in our case.Can you give us some of your experience on
            this thanks & in your opinion is it worth messingabout with the trim while operating the
            manipulator.Alan _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________
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