RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kite powered submarine.

[irox <irox@ix.netcom.com>]

Hi,

I'm looking at a using a kite system on my submarine.  As Jay states,
this is really only a long haul device, and it's going to need help.
I'm hoping to save 30-50% long haul fuel costs, like sailing from
California to Hawaii.  As well requiring help from the diesel, I
will be restricted to following trade winds, which will increase
the journey distance and time considerably, but can still can save
fuel/money expenses.

As Jay stated, submarines don't have a keel so they can't tack.
Also, they don't have a keel so tall masts will create moments that
the hull can't counter and will list over, spill the air from the
sail, <repeat> and cause everybody on board to get sick.  With a
kite, the moments created are relatively low down and close to
the hull, so it doesn't have such bad list when under full power.

The deck space reference is most likely to do with the size
of the base of turret to control the kite.  I've heard the
turret "mast" is at minimum 8 feet tall.  While I've not
confirmed this from people in the field, this would be far
too of a high up moment for a K-250.

Be all K-250 owners looking to harness wind power, there is
already a solution: http://www.psubs.org/UEM/

Hope you (in the US) are all enjoying the day off.

Cheers,
  Ian.

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Jay K. Jeffries" <bottomgun@mindspring.com>
>Sent: Sep 1, 2008 7:40 PM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sailing Loggerhead at 20 Knots
>
>When you read the professional papers surrounding these kite-assisted
>vessels, they are designed to be employed for long hauls with cargo that is
>not necessarily time dependent.  The wind doesn't always blow in the
>direction you want to go.  For submersibles, they need to stay close to the
>coast (I will give you that some might want to work 100 miles off the coast
>but this is outside of the norm).  It would suck to catch a Santa Ana Wind
>to the Catalinas off California but then find there isn't a wind to get back
>on.subs aren't made for tacking.  J
>
> 
>
>Despite what some might say, there are those of us actually that consider
>these things and in fact study them professionally.  You are hard pressed as
>it is to carry survival necessities aboard a K-boat, even twice as large
>leaves a lot of room for desires.there isn't room for the kite gear (where
>is there 2 ft2 available on most PSUB's decks), it is another thing that has
>to be managed, and if you look at the cost, the cost-to-benefit is not
>there.  And we also have to look at freeboard issues when considering most
>PSUBs, there isn't a whole lot of reserve buoyancy.
>
>R/Jay
>
> 
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Jay K. Jeffries
>
>Andros Is., Bahamas
>
> 
>
>Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. 
>
>    - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
>
> 
>
>From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Mad Pirate Shin
>Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 7:15 PM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sailing Loggerhead at 20 Knots
>
> 
>
>  That's quite a claim they make there for deck space used, I suspect that
>those figures only represent the footprint of the equipment.  Taking
>KiteForSail's claims at face value, I can see how one would think about
>making a wind powered K-250, but consider the purpose behind using wind
>power.
> 
>  If the use of wind power is to save fuel/money, then compare how far you
>expect to drive yer K-250 before it dives, keeping in mind how small a K-250
>really is and how long you think you could keep yerself crammed into
>one(travel to, dive, travel back).  Then estimate the price of a small
>outboard and the fuel used for said miles.  Then compare that dollar figure
>with the price of this brand new technology.  I'm betting that the kite
>won't save money unless used on a submarine that travels under it's own
>power alot.
> 
>  Cult sized, I mean, K-250 sized submersibles often have surface support
>vessels that can tow the psub with minimal additional cost.
> 
>  Upgrade from the K-250 submersible to a multi-passenger diesel powered
>submarine like Peter's earlier works, and you might save money depending on
>how you planned to use the submarine.  For myself, I would be at full
>throttle to get from work to the dive site before the sun sets in the
>evening, often times returning to the dock at dusk.  I would rather pay the
>extra cost for the fuel and make more dives, I would also feel more
>comfortable operating an engine in the dark than operating a kite.  If you
>made good use of deck space for comfort, and yer schedule permited it, one
>might regularly go for a spin around the islands, justifying the expense of
>the kite system.
> 
>  Upgrade again from a diesel weekend cruiser to a true live-a-board, and
>the only time the thing moves on the surface is for extended voyages.  Wind
>power wins from cost savings or safety(through a system with no mechanical
>parts to fail in the middle of the Bermuda Triangle).  This doesn't
>eliminate the diesel generator entirely, as batteries still need charging
>and air tanks still need to be re-filled.
> 
>  All that being said, it only applies to adding wind power to the
>submersible itself.  If yer tow boat was flying the kite, it's a whole
>different story.  When I retire, I won't buy an RV and drive all over
>visiting family, I'll tie a kite to my submarine and sail all over visiting
>family.
> 
> 
>regards,
>Shin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
>
>Kite System
>
>Availability
>
>Control
>
>Power Rating
>
>Deck Space
>
>
>S10
>
>available
>
>manual
>
>10 hp in 20 knots of wind
>
>2 square feet
>
>
>F10
>
>available
>
>manual
>
>10 hp in 20 knots of wind
>
>2 square feet
>
>
>F20
>
>Leave your vessel info
>
>manual
>
>20 hp in 20 knots of wind
>
>3 square feet
>
>
>F50
>
>Leave your vessel info
>
>automated
>
>50 hp in 20 knots of wind
>
>4 square feet
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
>
>From: brenthartwig@hotmail.com
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sailing Loggerhead at 20 Knots
>Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 14:43:46 -0700
>
>Hello Shin,
>
>Your one of the few PSUBer's I've been made aware of, that have acknowledged
>that they have a reasonable grasp of what this technology could do for use.
>
>I also wanted to install a large computer controlled towing kite system
>sorta like the German company at www.skysails.com is now producing. This
>would make running the boat much cheaper then always having to use the
>diesel for surface travel. But I was also looking for a simpler
>configuration for smaller subs and for reasons of cost and availability.
>
>The below quotes are from Skysails.
>
>"Question: Can you already tell how much fuel you have been able to save so
>far?" 
>"Stephan Wrage: The savings potential attainable by the use of the SkySails
>has already been confirmed on our test vessel "Beaufort". Under optimal wind
>conditions, a SkySails-System can thus temporarily substitute over 50% of
>the main engine power - with corresponding savings."
>Also the small Hawaiian company I've been watching now has boat kite sail
>system you can now purchase pretty reasonably. But there turret system has
>draw and entanglement issues when submerged if used on a sub. Do I would
>need to have it retract horizontally into the conning tower for submerged
>travel or come up with another system like is used in the below clips.
>
>
>http://www.kiteforsail.com/
>
>I think I might have a manual and/or power assist towing kite configuration
>that I can install on my K-250, that would work basically like the one in
>the clips below. The only worry is that one of those military planes that
>pick up people and/or gear with that special nose gear designed to grab the
>kites, will see my kite and take me and my whole sub air born. How would
>that be for being yanked out of a wet dream. ;)'     
>
>I better make the whole thing release for dealing with, and if it gets
>entangled.
>
>
>
>
>Your resident wind  blown  dreamer   ;)'
>
>Regards,
>Szybowski
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
>From: shinbashoamir@hotmail.com
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sailing Loggerhead at 20 Knots
>Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:02:03 -0400
>
>
>  I don't see any reason to bother penetrating the pressure hull to control
>it internally.  A long range submarine can be designed with a flat deck from
>which to fly the kite.  And for rough weather, I expect most submarines
>would dive below the wave action anyhow.
> 
>  I personally favor the freedom that sails offer, and would love to be able
>to apply that to a submarine.  Such options to date are un-stepping a
>conventional mast, submerged sailing through bouyancy control, and now
>kites.
> 
>  Since the kite technolgy is progressing faster than I expected, this is of
>interest to me.  It possibly offers small storage space inside the pressure
>hull(no mast and sail strapped to the outside of the submarine).  Underwater
>sailing(using bouyancy) halves the living space of a comparably sized
>sailboat; since kites are used on the surface, you are free to use the
>submarine's deck while underway.
> 
>  With the way that I would use a live-a-board submarine, however, I would
>just dump the sail storage area and add a hundred gallons of fuel oil.  I'll
>just wait and see how this technology developes.
> 
> 
>regards,
>Shin
>
>  _____  
>
>
>From: brenthartwig@hotmail.com
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sailing Loggerhead at 20 Knots
>Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 00:42:47 -0700
>
>Steve,
>
>You know we might be able to figure out how to attach a towing kite system
>like in the below links, but control it internally with a double external
>wench system.  The size kites we could use are already commercially
>available, in stock sizes.
>
>Most days you might even need to turn on the motor at all.  Even better yet
>I would get to use your sub as the guinea pig before I design and install
>the towing kite system on my live aboard sub. ;)'
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf-uPNnkEIw
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbyX4mkfjfo
> 
>BOW CHIKKA WOOWW WOWW !!!!!
>
>
>
>
>Brent 
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
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>




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