[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Desert Star Sport
Andy, Thanks a lot. That is a great heads up. Also your flyout and site.
You have a great job playing with all that. Regards, Hugh
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of andy goldstein
Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 11:42 a.m.
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Desert Star Sport
Hugh,
No official recommendations. There are A LOT of different systems out
there.
Starting with sonars:
Scanning (these are like RADAR). They send out a ping and plot the
returns vs rotation angle and distance. The sonar head rotates, in a
similar fashion or an rotating RADAR dish. These are in the $4K and up
range. I'd bet JW Fishers or tritech are the least expensive.
http://www.tritech.co.uk/products/products-micron_sonar.htm
http://www.imagenex.com/
http://www.jwfishers.com/scan650.htm
http://www.km.kongsberg.com/ks/web/nokbg0240.nsf/AllWeb/C6151868CBFA603FC125
6CFD003C4654?OpenDocument
Multibeam. These are more like video cameras, sorta. These are
significantly more expensive.
On the order of $30K and up.
http://www.blueview.com/
http://www.tritech.co.uk/products/products-gemini720i.htm
http://www.soundmetrics.com/
3-D sonars. ($$$$)
http://www.farsounder.com/
http://www.codaoctopus.com/3d_ac_im/index.asp
For acoustic navigation/tracking there are a few options as well. These
are primiarly for tracking a sub-sea target from a surface vessel, but
some can provide position info to the sub.
USBL: (ultra short baseline) $20K - $30K and up.
http://www.link-quest.com/
http://www.tritech.co.uk/products/products-micron_nav.htm
http://www.edgetech.com/ore-offshore/gallery/item/trackpoint-3-system/catego
ry/navigation-positioning
http://www.appliedacoustics.com/Products_Easy.aspx?content=system
http://www.sonardyne.co.uk/Products/PositioningNavigation/systems/scout.html
http://www.ixsea.com/en/subsea_positioning/1/gaps.html
http://www.km.kongsberg.com/ks/web/nokbg0240.nsf/AllWeb/5D973E0B9A14E3AEC125
7142004552F1?OpenDocument
Desert Star has SBL, which is short baseline acoustic nav. It can be
harder to setup than a usbl. A usbl has a single transducer head, a SBL
has 3 or more cabled sonar transducers. ($10K - $20K). I think the
range on the linkquest is better. I think the accuracy on the desert
star system can be better than usbl with proper setup.
http://www.desertstar.com/Products_product.aspx?intProductID=1
One more interesting option for sub navigation would be a DVL, or
doppler velocity log. This measures relative velocity to the seafloor
or water column and integrates to get a kinda dead reckoned position.
http://www.rdinstruments.com/explorer.aspx
Oh, almost forgot...One official recommendation. You should have a
flyout ROV and it should be a VideoRay :)
http://www.videoray.com/
Hope that helps,
-a
On 3/15/2010 3:56 PM, Hugh Fulton wrote:
> Okay Andy,
> I am listening hard. I have OTS comms, Depth sounder yes, Surface beacon
> and VHF. What are you recommending for Number 3 and 5 Imaging Sonar and
> acoustic NAV system. Also what is SBL/USBL?
> As always limited budget but not too limited. I followed Cliff's advice
on
> comms and got scratch and dent 8 channel with diver unit for the sub all
for
> $3,500. I am a bit leery of Interphase now having heard of the recent
> problem but David might fix it. Echo pilot is another forward sonar but I
> have not heard of anyone using it. Eventually I would like an INS and I
know
> there is a guy trying to get one to the market for under 50k. What is
> Desert star.s SBL. How does it compare with Linkquest? Hugh
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of andy goldstein
> Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 12:43 a.m.
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Desert Star Sport
>
> Hi all.
>
> A couple of points.
>
> An echo-sounder, fish finder, etc. as normally installed would require
> the surface vessel to be almost on-top of the sub. A side scan
> typically would require the surface boat to always be moving back and
> forth with the sub broadside in order to image. I think both would have
> pretty sever operational challenges when trying to track a sub.
>
> The sport/scout do require the receiver to be in the water. As
> delivered the sonar transducer and display electronics are co-located in
> the same housing. So, yes you would get wet when attempting to use if
> from a surface boat.
>
> It would be fairly simple to open up the receiver, disconnect the sonar
> transducer from the display electronics, connect it to a coax cable, and
> run the display electronics remotely (like on a pole or in the cabin).
> This would void the warranty... Remember that the transducer is
> directional, so if it's rigidly mounted the relative positions of the
> sub and chase boat would have to stay constant. You could run spirals
> or something if you lost contact. If you do rigidly mount the receiver
> I'd get a second one too. That way if you had to send divers or an rov
> down to the sub you could relocate it easier.
>
> A configuration which would be more like the typical diver application,
> would be to pinger on a pole off the boat, and the receiver on the sub.
> The sub could always get back the surface boat without surfacing.
>
> If you want to move up to a "real" tracking system. There are lots.
> Desert star has an sbl for about $10K, Linkquest was mentioned at $15K
> for their USBL, then there is sonardyne, tritech, applied acoustics,
> ORE, ixsea. I think that is everyone. There are companies like
> Asthtead which rent these systems, which may be an option.
>
> If I had to had to have a fixed budget though I'd get other gear before
> a nav system I think.
>
> 1) Comms, like a OTS phone or something
> 2) Altimeter/depth sounder on the sub
> 3) Some imaging sonar, scanning or multibeam if I had the $$
> 4) Surface beacon (strobe/radio)
> 5) SBL/USBL acoustic nav system.
>
>
>
> On 3/15/2010 12:18 AM, Jon Wallace wrote:
>
>> Frank,
>>
>> Not addressed to me, but I'll throw in my two cents. Most commercial
>> pingers are ultrasonic. The hydrophone that David came up with uses a
>> "sonic" piezo element centered at around 3khz so it would not be
>> resonant to the higher frequency commercial pingers and would not
>> detect them.
>>
>> The Desert Star scuba pingers provide both direction and range and can
>> be used exactly as you've described. Unfortunately we have never been
>> able to succeed at getting directionality out of the HBH (home-built
>> hydrophone) using 3khz piezo elements, however my experience was that
>> it was very easy to determine range based upon the loudness of the
>> "ping". Therefore, by running a grid-pattern you could "home" in on
>> the pinger by just listening to whether the sound was getting louder
>> or softer. Not the most efficient way of finding an object by any
>> means, however, and similar to what you would have to do with a
>> down-looking sonar or fish finder.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> ShellyDalg@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> In a message dated 3/14/2010 8:06:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>>> alanjames@xtra.co.nz writes:
>>>
>>> I have only had experience with cheap fish finders& have
>>> questions about their reliability,
>>>
>>> Hi David and Alan. Gulping air......well, OK.
>>> Now back to the question of finding a sub......
>>> If a sub has a pinger attached, could a surface boat find it with the
>>> hydrophone you ( David ) made ?
>>> Depending on directionality of the array, a direction for the sub's
>>> location should be possible. Maybe then the pilot could motor over in
>>> that direction and as the pinger got louder you may be able to tell
>>> how close you're getting. At least staying within a pre-set minimum
>>> distance. By rotating the pick-up you would know if the surface boat
>>> needs to go left or right. Now, if you passed OVER the sub and the
>>> pinger signal was now coming from behind the pick-up the pilot would
>>> then stop or get out of the way in case the sub was ascending to the
>>> surface. Be a bummer to ram your own surface crew.
>>> Maybe you could have two pingers with one stronger ( louder ) or more
>>> frequent so by listening you'd be able to tell how close you were.
>>> What makes a pinger anyway ? Is it just a thing that sends out a
>>> sound wave at a set interval ? It seems the pick-up part is the hard
>>> piece to make. So the returning signal can be figured how far away it
>>> is ( function of time ? ) and what direction it's coming from ( array
>>> set-up in degrees ?)
>>> Frank D.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ************************************************************************
>> ************************************************************************
>> ************************************************************************
>> The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
>> CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
>> because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
>> from our organization.
>>
>> If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
>> link below or send a blank email message to:
>> removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>
>> Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
>> automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
>> our server receiving your request.
>>
>> PSUBS.ORG
>> PO Box 53
>> Weare, NH 03281
>> 603-529-1100
>> ************************************************************************
>> ************************************************************************
>> ************************************************************************
>>
>>
>>
>
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
from our organization.
If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
link below or send a blank email message to:
removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
our server receiving your request.
PSUBS.ORG
PO Box 53
Weare, NH 03281
603-529-1100
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4946 (20100315) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4946 (20100315) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
from our organization.
If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
link below or send a blank email message to:
removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
our server receiving your request.
PSUBS.ORG
PO Box 53
Weare, NH 03281
603-529-1100
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************