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Re: Horray for Jon's psubs group sub
"L",
Not to fan the flames but I feel I must comment....the info you get from
this forum and the PSUB's web page is worth the price you pay for it. You
must remember this is Internet and as such we have a wide exposure to
varied and diverse backgrounds. I don't believe Ray or Jon ever held
themselves up to be "experts" nor were any claims made that this group
was full of experienced people. If you read the group's charter it states
this is a group to "promote and encourage the discussion, designing,
building, certifiying, owning and using Personal Submersibles". Nowhere
does it say
that the group is comprised of experts or experienced Psub'ers.
For what it's worth, I feel Phil Nuytten's participation in this group
more than makes up for the numerous people with no experience. Why,
Phil is probably the most experienced small sub designer, builder, and
pilot in North America and quite possibly the world. I can think of no
one I would rather have participate in this group. (Not only that but
he's friendly and down to earth even if he is an Elvis fan ;-))!
To add to this, there are people on this list with various applicable
backgrounds...engineering, machining, fabrication, etc. All this makes
for interesting input. You don't have to be an astronaut to be an expert
in space travel or a pilot to be an expert in airplane design. Besides,
I don't think anyone is this group has held themselves up to be an expert
in an area they did not have experience in.
I guess the bottom line is that you should accept this group for what
it is...a bunch of people with an interest in Psubs, both experienced
and unexperienced. Take ANY information given with a grain of salt...
it's worth exactly what you paid for it. If you want expert, guaranteed
assistance, go out and hire an engineer/pilot/consultant and pay for it!
(No animals were harmed in the construction of this post and any flames
that may have escaped were intended to be shot straight up and not
directed toward any one person!!) :-)
Al Secor
>"Fostor",
>Great idea! Purchase Jon Shawl's sub and use it for a group rental psub!
>What will we all name it? Phil will want it named, "Elvis" and paint it
>pink like the Elvis Cadillacs. Bob Holt and Gene will come up with some
>good names. I'm in, for sure. Where do I send my check for my timeshare
>membership? You run it Vance and keep it mantained in Florida and you start
>a real psubs certification website. That's what's really needed. I had
>thought "many" more on the list "really" had subs. Not so. I guess this is
>mostly a site just to chat about psubs for 20 years and never build one.
>That's OK, I guess if this was admtted to, and was known somewhere on the
>psubs Main Page it would be nice and a bit more honest to visitors to this
>site.
>
>It takes a few weeks before you realize that nearly everybody is really a
>beginner like me except for 2 or 3 and they may not really be current, with
>their last dives many years ago. Am I right? With just all of the expert
>"talk", I now see some people, Jonathan Wallace and Ray Keefer want to have
>submarine psubs professional looking "business cards" to carry, we'd all be
>the laughing joke throughout the "real" psubs world as just some card
>carrying phoney wannabe sub experts. Am I wrong? I don't mean to be hard
>and direct, but, if you are offended, then the truth hurts.
>
>Sounds like Vance "Vbra" and Jon Shawl and Gary are "real" subbers and Phil
>and Al are in the underwater business, but the other 98% don't know squat
>and talk from books and not from their real personal experience. Not to
>continue to bruise everyone's egos, how many are even certified scuba divers
>like Al Secor said is the first thing you should get? I agree with Vance and
>Al. They tell it like it is. I think Ginger was asking the same questions
>of this list as to who were really sub pilots and she never got a straight
>answer that I know of and quit asking because I bet she didn't want to hurt
>any member's egos.
>
>I don't either, but I know a newbie coming to this list is hoodwinked into
>thinking this site is something it really isn't because of the "smoke and
>mirrors" expert sounding postings. You are all probably nice people with
>more dreams than drive or the money it takes to play in this business and
>that's OK. I'd like an Italian muscle coupe for $400,000 so I just blow
>through the hot car sites to lurk and dream, so I'm guilty too, but I don't
>post phoney "expert, car owner's" e-mails.
>
>I just wanted to share this possibly stinging observation and really mean no
>harm as I will continue lurking until I can locate a real psubber to contact
>off the list for serious wet sub information that won't leave me trapped
>underwater dead.
>
>Fostor, as for your request for the censored "bad JOHN SCHESTAG and Ray
>Keefer" (PSUBSGATE) postings of September, last year, I agree, either unlock
>them for ALL members to see or remove them from the psubs archives. Blocked
>postings are an insult to members. Charlie, I'm glad you're back and where
>is Ginger, lurking? Maybe this message will help you, Ginger for your
>several wet sub requests. I ran out of coffee this morning so I feel on
>edge as you can tell.
>
>My dear bride has our vacation all scheduled with relatives again, so that
>really helped get me started with this message, Fostor. I'd rather go down
>and visit Vance and go subbing. Is your sub for sale or rent Vance so maybe
>psubs can purchase yours? I'll be just lurking and please take no offence
>to my personal opinion, Ray and Jon W., but you know I'm right.
>
>Psubs reminds me of that TV commercial of this guy coming to the rescue and
>getting ready to set some poor guy's knee and the guy says "you must be a
>doctor" and the other guy says "No, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn last
>night!"
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
--
Alan D. Secor
e-mail: secor@btv.ibm.com