Re: Horray for Jon's psubs group sub

[Dick Morrisson <rmorrisson@unidial.com>]

Thanks Al,
I'm glad my experiences as an engineer, pilot, machinist, designer, scuba diver,
and book reader/learner are not in vain, I can still be in the same web group as
L. Lyttle without piloting a submarine (yet!).

"Alan D. Secor" wrote:

> "L",
>
> Not to fan the flames but I feel I must comment....the info you get from
> this forum and the PSUB's web page is worth the price you pay for it.  You
> must remember this is Internet and as such we have a wide exposure to
> varied and diverse backgrounds.  I don't believe Ray or Jon ever held
> themselves up to be "experts" nor were any claims made that this group
> was full of experienced people.  If you read the group's charter it states
> this is a group to "promote and encourage the discussion, designing,
> building, certifiying, owning and using Personal Submersibles".  Nowhere
> does it say
> that the group is comprised of experts or experienced Psub'ers.
>
> For what it's worth, I feel Phil Nuytten's participation in this group
> more than makes up for the numerous people with no experience.  Why,
> Phil is probably the most experienced small sub designer, builder, and
> pilot in North America and quite possibly the world.  I can think of no
> one I would rather have participate in this group.  (Not only that but
> he's friendly and down to earth even if he is an Elvis fan ;-))!
>
> To add to this, there are people on this list with various applicable
> backgrounds...engineering, machining, fabrication, etc.  All this makes
> for interesting input.  You don't have to be an astronaut to be an expert
> in space travel or a pilot to be an expert in airplane design.  Besides,
> I don't think anyone is this group has held themselves up to be an expert
> in an area they did not have experience in.
>
> I guess the bottom line is that you should accept this group for what
> it is...a bunch of people with an interest in Psubs, both experienced
> and unexperienced.  Take ANY information given with a grain of salt...
> it's worth exactly what you paid for it.  If you want expert, guaranteed
> assistance, go out and hire an engineer/pilot/consultant and pay for it!
>
> (No animals were harmed in the construction of this post and any flames
> that may have escaped were intended to be shot straight up and not
> directed toward any one person!!)  :-)
>
> Al Secor
>
> >"Fostor",
> >Great idea!  Purchase Jon Shawl's sub and use it for a group rental psub!
> >What will we all name it?  Phil will want it named, "Elvis" and paint it
> >pink like the Elvis Cadillacs.  Bob Holt and Gene will come up with some
> >good names.  I'm in, for sure.  Where do I send my check for my timeshare
> >membership?  You run it Vance and keep it mantained in Florida and you start
> >a real psubs certification website.  That's what's really needed.  I had
> >thought "many" more on the list "really" had subs.  Not so.  I guess this is
> >mostly a site just to chat about psubs for 20 years and never build one.
> >That's OK, I guess if this was admtted to, and was known somewhere on the
> >psubs Main Page it would be nice and a bit more honest to visitors to this
> >site.
> >
> >It takes a few weeks before you realize that nearly everybody is really a
> >beginner like me except for 2 or 3 and they may not really be current, with
> >their last dives many years ago.  Am I right?  With just all of the expert
> >"talk", I now see some people, Jonathan Wallace and Ray Keefer want to have
> >submarine psubs professional looking "business cards" to carry, we'd all be
> >the laughing joke throughout the "real" psubs world as just some card
> >carrying phoney wannabe sub experts.  Am I wrong?  I don't mean to be hard
> >and direct, but, if you are offended, then the truth hurts.
> >
> >Sounds like Vance "Vbra" and Jon Shawl and Gary are "real" subbers and Phil
> >and Al are in the underwater business, but the other 98% don't know squat
> >and talk from books and not from their real personal experience.  Not to
> >continue to bruise everyone's egos, how many are even certified scuba divers
> >like Al Secor said is the first thing you should get? I agree with Vance and
> >Al.  They tell it like it is.  I think Ginger was asking the same questions
> >of this list as to who were really sub pilots and she never got a straight
> >answer that I know of and quit asking because I bet she didn't want to hurt
> >any member's egos.
> >
> >I don't either, but I know a newbie coming to this list is hoodwinked into
> >thinking this site is something it really isn't because of the "smoke and
> >mirrors" expert sounding postings.  You are all probably nice people with
> >more dreams than drive or the money it takes to play in this business and
> >that's OK.  I'd like an Italian muscle coupe for $400,000 so I just blow
> >through the hot car sites to lurk and dream, so I'm guilty too, but I don't
> >post phoney "expert, car owner's" e-mails.
> >
> >I just wanted to share this possibly stinging observation and really mean no
> >harm as I will continue lurking until I can locate a real psubber to contact
> >off the list for serious wet sub information that won't leave me trapped
> >underwater dead.
> >
> >Fostor, as for your request for the censored "bad JOHN SCHESTAG and Ray
> >Keefer" (PSUBSGATE) postings of September, last year, I agree, either unlock
> >them for ALL members to see or remove them from the psubs archives.  Blocked
> >postings are an insult to members.  Charlie, I'm glad you're back and where
> >is Ginger, lurking?  Maybe this message will help you, Ginger for your
> >several wet sub requests.  I ran out of coffee this morning so I feel on
> >edge as you can tell.
> >
> >My dear bride has our vacation all scheduled with relatives again, so that
> >really helped get me started with this message, Fostor.  I'd rather go down
> >and visit Vance and go subbing.  Is your sub for sale or rent Vance so maybe
> >psubs can purchase yours?  I'll be just lurking and please take no offence
> >to my personal opinion, Ray and Jon W., but you know I'm right.
> >
> >Psubs reminds me of that TV commercial of this guy coming to the rescue and
> >getting ready to set some poor guy's knee and the guy says "you must be a
> >doctor" and the other guy says "No, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn last
> >night!"
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________________________
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>
> --
> Alan D. Secor
> e-mail: secor@btv.ibm.com