When you read the professional papers surrounding these kite-assisted
vessels, they are designed to be employed for long hauls with cargo that is not
necessarily time dependent. The wind doesn’t always blow in the
direction you want to go. For submersibles, they need to stay close to
the coast (I will give you that some might want to work 100 miles off the coast
but this is outside of the norm). It would suck to catch a Santa Ana Wind
to the Catalinas off California but then find there isn’t a wind to get
back on…subs aren’t made for tacking. J
Despite what some might say, there are those of us actually that
consider these things and in fact study them professionally. You are hard
pressed as it is to carry survival necessities aboard a K-boat, even twice
as large leaves a lot of room for desires…there isn’t room for the
kite gear (where is there 2 ft2 available on most PSUB’s
decks), it is another thing that has to be managed, and if you look at the cost,
the cost-to-benefit is not there. And we also have to look at freeboard
issues when considering most PSUBs, there isn’t a whole lot of reserve
buoyancy.
R/Jay
Respectfully,
Jay K. Jeffries
Andros Is., Bahamas
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
- Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
From:
owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Mad Pirate
Shin
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 7:15 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sailing Loggerhead at 20 Knots
That's quite a claim they make there for deck space used, I suspect that those
figures only represent the footprint of the equipment. Taking
KiteForSail's claims at face value, I can see how one would think about making
a wind powered K-250, but consider the purpose behind using wind power.
If the use of wind power is to save fuel/money, then compare how far you
expect to drive yer K-250 before it dives, keeping in mind how small a K-250
really is and how long you think you could keep yerself crammed into one(travel
to, dive, travel back). Then estimate the price of a small outboard
and the fuel used for said miles. Then compare that dollar figure with
the price of this brand new technology. I'm betting that the kite
won't save money unless used on a submarine that travels under it's
own power alot.
Cult sized, I mean, K-250 sized submersibles often have surface
support vessels that can tow the psub with minimal additional cost.
Upgrade from the K-250 submersible to a multi-passenger diesel powered
submarine like Peter's earlier works, and you might save money depending on how
you planned to use the submarine. For myself, I would be at full throttle
to get from work to the dive site before the sun sets in the evening, often
times returning to the dock at dusk. I would rather pay the extra cost
for the fuel and make more dives, I would also feel more comfortable operating
an engine in the dark than operating a kite. If you made good use of deck
space for comfort, and yer schedule permited it, one might regularly go
for a spin around the islands, justifying the expense of the kite system.
Upgrade again from a diesel weekend cruiser to a true live-a-board, and
the only time the thing moves on the surface is for extended
voyages. Wind power wins from cost savings or safety(through a system
with no mechanical parts to fail in the middle of the Bermuda Triangle).
This doesn't eliminate the diesel generator entirely, as batteries
still need charging and air tanks still need to be re-filled.
All that being said, it only applies to adding wind power to the
submersible itself. If yer tow boat was flying the kite, it's a
whole different story. When I retire, I won't buy an RV and drive all
over visiting family, I'll tie a kite to my submarine and sail all over visiting
family.
regards,
Shin
Kite System
|
Availability
|
Control
|
Power
Rating
|
Deck
Space
|
S10
|
available
|
manual
|
10 hp
in 20 knots of wind
|
2
square feet
|
F10
|
available
|
manual
|
10 hp
in 20 knots of wind
|
2
square feet
|
F20
|
Leave
your vessel info
|
manual
|
20 hp
in 20 knots of wind
|
3
square feet
|
F50
|
Leave
your vessel info
|
automated
|
50 hp
in 20 knots of wind
|
4
square feet
|
From: brenthartwig@hotmail.com
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sailing Loggerhead at 20 Knots
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 14:43:46 -0700
Hello Shin,
Your one of the few PSUBer's I've been made aware of, that have acknowledged
that they have a reasonable grasp of what this technology could do for use.
I also wanted to install a large computer controlled towing kite system sorta
like the German company at www.skysails.com is
now producing. This would make running the boat much cheaper then always having
to use the diesel for surface travel. But I was also looking for a simpler
configuration for smaller subs and for reasons of cost and availability.
The below quotes are from Skysails.
"Question: Can you already tell how much fuel you have been able to save
so far?"
"Stephan Wrage: The savings potential attainable by the use of the
SkySails has already been confirmed on our test vessel "Beaufort".
Under optimal wind conditions, a SkySails-System can thus temporarily
substitute over 50% of the main engine power – with corresponding
savings."
Also the small Hawaiian company I've been watching now has boat kite sail
system you can now purchase pretty reasonably. But there turret system has draw
and entanglement issues when submerged if used on a sub. Do I would need to
have it retract horizontally into the conning tower for submerged travel or
come up with another system like is used in the below clips.
http://www.kiteforsail.com/
I think I might have a manual and/or power assist towing kite configuration
that I can install on my K-250, that would work basically like the one in the
clips below. The only worry is that one of those military planes that pick up
people and/or gear with that special nose gear designed to grab the kites, will
see my kite and take me and my whole sub air born. How would that be for being
yanked out of a wet dream. ;)'
I better make the whole thing release for dealing with, and if it gets
entangled.
Your
resident wind blown dreamer ;)'
Regards,
Szybowski
From: shinbashoamir@hotmail.com
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sailing Loggerhead at 20 Knots
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:02:03 -0400
I don't see any reason to bother penetrating the pressure hull to
control it internally. A long range submarine can be designed with a flat
deck from which to fly the kite. And for rough weather, I expect most
submarines would dive below the wave action anyhow.
I personally favor the freedom that sails offer, and would love to
be able to apply that to a submarine. Such options to date are
un-stepping a conventional mast, submerged sailing through bouyancy control,
and now kites.
Since the kite technolgy is progressing faster than I expected, this is
of interest to me. It possibly offers small storage space inside the
pressure hull(no mast and sail strapped to the outside of the submarine).
Underwater sailing(using bouyancy) halves the living space of a comparably
sized sailboat; since kites are used on the surface, you are free to use the
submarine's deck while underway.
With the way that I would use a live-a-board submarine, however, I would
just dump the sail storage area and add a hundred gallons of fuel oil.
I'll just wait and see how this technology developes.
regards,
Shin
From: brenthartwig@hotmail.com
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sailing Loggerhead at 20 Knots
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 00:42:47 -0700
Steve,
You know we might be able to figure out how to attach a towing kite system like
in the below links, but control it internally with a double external wench
system. The size kites we could use are already commercially available,
in stock sizes.
Most days you might even need to turn on the motor at all. Even better
yet I would get to use your sub as the guinea pig before I design and install
the towing kite system on my live aboard sub. ;)'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf-uPNnkEIw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbyX4mkfjfo
BOW CHIKKA WOOWW WOWW !!!!!
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